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June 14, 2002 -- LadyStarlight, 06:13:36 06/14/02 Fri

Happy Anniversary Masq! (not leaving out the wonderful posters here...)

Thank you for putting together an incredible website and moderating the best posting board out there.

[> Happy Anniversary! -- Cactus Watcher, 06:19:59 06/14/02 Fri

Thanks Masq!

[> [> Re: Happy Anniversary! -- Brian, 06:36:02 06/14/02 Fri

Congratulations to the continuing creation of a subsection of the Buffyverse with: Two years of philosophical musings, cyber-chocolate goodness, kick-ass fiction, friendship and romance supported and survived, and trolls subdued. Way to Go, Masq et al!

[> [> [> 2 years and still going strong!! -- JCC, 08:17:27 06/14/02 Fri

The best board around has seen chocolate, cats, haikus, haircuts and a wedding. Happy Anniversary!!! And thanks Masq.

[> Woo Hoo!!!!! -- VampRiley, 06:35:34 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary! Rock on! -- neaux, 08:08:22 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary Card! -- LeeAnn, 08:25:01 06/14/02 Fri

From LeeAnn

[> [> Re:Nice one, LeeAnn! -- dubdub, 12:06:43 06/14/02 Fri

[> Woo woo! -- Rob, 08:31:35 06/14/02 Fri

[> Yay!!! Here's to many more! -- Deeva, 08:42:00 06/14/02 Fri

[> yeah! -- Masq, 09:06:05 06/14/02 Fri

One clarification note, it's the second anniversary of the posting board. The ATPoBtVS site is 3 1/2 years old.

And you guys are the ones who deserve the woo-hoos! and thanks. You make this board what it is!

[> Cheers for the host! and Huzzahs!!! for the Posts!! Many, many more! -- LittleBit, 09:12:38 06/14/02 Fri

[> They don't make angry mobs like they used to, 'cause this girl's still alive -- spotjon, 09:48:13 06/14/02 Fri

Wow, two whole years, and going strong! Congrats to Masquerade and all others involved! Heck, I remember the old days, before there even was a message board, and all we could do was listen to Masq's wisdom without the benefit of public dissent. But then she made the choice of opening up a message board so that we all could make fun of her theories:

Masquerade: Tremble!
BuffyFans: Who's a little philosopher? Come on! Who's a little philosopher!
Giles: Don't taunt the philosopher.
BuffyFans: Why, can she hurt me?
Giles: No, it's just tacky.

In any case, I expect this site to be alive and well for at least another two good years, and hopefully until Buffy, Angel and whatever other spin-offs come about are off the air. Even though I haven't been around for the last few months, I've kept up with the TV series a bit, and I'm still anxiously awaiting the next issue of Fray. If I ever get a television again, I may get back into the show, especially since this next one will probably be Buffy's last season.

What other television series could spawn this amount of speculation and philosphical/theological debates? If I had more time on my hands, it might inspire me to create my own fantasy series... dunno if I would have enough clout to make it into a TV series, though. Of all the TV shows out there, Buffy has got to be the best, despite its recent (unnecessarily?) dark meanderings this last year.

Here's to a great show, a great board, and a great hostess.

Further Up and Further In,
Jonathan
mcstuff.net

[> [> Hey, spotjon! Long time no see! -- Masq, overlooking the taunting : ), 09:54:09 06/14/02 Fri

[> hip hip hooray for masq and the board!! happy anniversary! -- julia, 09:53:43 06/14/02 Fri

[> Aloha e Kakou loa Masq, Hao'oli Piha Makahiki Hou a me Malama Pono!! -- redcat, 10:20:48 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary, with Thanks! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 10:45:05 06/14/02 Fri

A haven for cats, chocolate, and oh yes...Canadians!

;o)

[> [> Yes, you lucky people get to deal with Canadians all the time... -- Rufus, 22:06:57 06/14/02 Fri

But never fear, where there is a Canadian, there is chance they may have Canadian Chocolate....;) I'm keeping my cat, but you may worship, I mean get one of your own.

Happy Anniversary to all!

[> Happy Anniversary ATPoBtVS! -- MaeveRigan, 11:05:36 06/14/02 Fri

Although I mostly lurk, I can't get through a day without this board. Thanks for the deep thoughts, and for making BtVS and AtS even better.

[> [> I second that! -- DickBD, 13:13:41 06/14/02 Fri

That's the way I am, too. I don't often post, but I always have to check to see what everyone has to say. Great board!

[> Happy Anniversary, ATPoBtVS Posting Board! -- Belladonna, 12:21:59 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy Anniversary! -- ravenhair, 13:55:13 06/14/02 Fri

Many thanks, Masq!

ATPoBtVS has added to my enjoyment of the show and I appreciate your dedication to the board/site.

[> YeeHaw! -- Arethusa, 14:12:58 06/14/02 Fri

Our traditional way of expressing glee, here in Texas.

[> Two years, and we *still* haven't run out of hot air! ;-) -- Humanitas, 16:16:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> ATPoBtVS 4 EVER! -- ponygirl, 16:20:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> yay! happy anniversary!!! -- anom, 17:15:48 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy, happy, joy, joy -- Rowan, 17:16:02 06/14/02 Fri

Happy anniversary!

[> Happiest of Anniversaries! Here's to many more! -- Ixchel, 18:33:50 06/14/02 Fri

[> Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy! -- Dedalus, 19:47:07 06/14/02 Fri

[> Brava Masquerade! Congrats all. Salud! -- A8, 22:02:58 06/14/02 Fri

[> Said it before, and sayin' it again.. *There is no place like this place near this place, so... * -- OnM, 22:23:10 06/14/02 Fri

...this must be The Place!!

Congrats and big time thanks to Masquerade and all at ATPo for making this one of the most special places on the net!

There is no Buffy like Our Buffy...

:-)

:-)

:-)

[> New friends becoming old friends - here's to many more years together! -- Liq, 22:38:22 06/14/02 Fri

Gift Forshadowings - (Spoilers for The Gift & Season 6) -- Brian, 06:26:57 06/14/02 Fri

I've been musing from "The Gift" to "Grave," and have noticed that The Gift was just loaded with foreshadowings for Season Six. Here are the ones I found:

Spike: It's always about blood - Blood on Willow's shirt sets Willow off

Buffy: She's me - Dawn becomes a bitty Buffy by slaying a vamp & using a sword to help Buffy

Giles: Every other dimension imaginable - Buffy's back from Heaven

Buffy: I love you all, but I'm sorry - Buffy longs to return to Heaven

Xander: We could kill a regular guy - Willow kills Warren

Glory: just put my fist through her heart - All the heart imagery of Season 6

Giles: In this sorry world I do what other's can't - Giles' magic vs. Willow

Buffy: I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world - Buffy's whole Season 6 Depression

Buffy: I wish my mom was here - Joyce returns in Normal Again

Glory's Tower - Willow's resurrected temple

Willow: I'm not good under pressure - Dark Willow

Buffy: (to Willow) you're the strongest person here; you know that - Willow's power runs amuck

Willow: (to Tara) I'm going to bring you back - Confronting Osiris

Spike: (to Buffy) Presto, no barrier - Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike

Spike: (to Buffy) I know you'll never love me - Buffy's abuse of Spike

Doc: there's no smell of soul anywhere on you - The consequence of Spike's quest

Buffy finds her purpose and sacrifices herself for Dawn and the world at dawn- Buffy discovers her purpose as mentor and guide for Dawn at dawn

The hardest thing in this world is to live in it - All of Season 6

Historical Vampires, Slayers & Watchers... -- FriarTed, 07:56:02 06/14/02 Fri

In the BtVS movie novelization, Buffy asks if any famous historical people were vampires, to which the Watcher responds that Caligula & Jack the Ripper were... the same vampire.

Soooo anyone have any idea for other famous vampires? Not counting Vlad Drakula, Elizabeth Bathory or Nero.

Famous Slayers & Watchers?

Here's my suggestions: Joan of Arc, with her Watcher being
Gilles de Rais, who allied with the demons once she was martyred.

Mary Magdalene, with JC & then Joseph of Arimathea as her Watchers- as she traveled thru Europe into the British Isles with the Grail *G*

[> Rasputin -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:35:27 06/14/02 Fri

I bet that, in the Buffyverse, Rasputin was a vampire. Think about it, his assassins couldn't kill him despite poison, bullets, beatings, stabbings, and drowning. Of course, none of these things would kill a vampire. Plus, it was hinted at in Season Five.

Jesus was a vampire. That's why the cross hurts them: one of their biggest leaders ever was crucified on one (okay, maybe the Romans or Pharisees cast a spell on them, but it does make sense when you think about it).

I'm pegging Dr. Van Helsing (from Dracula) as a Watcher. He has the right feel to him.

Finally, my guess as to a historical Slayer:
Atlanta, a Greek heroine who was an expert hunter (quite possibly hunting demons in her spare time).

[> [> MORE!!! -- FriarTed, 10:40:12 06/14/02 Fri

Van Helsing- definitely a Watcher. Mina perhaps to become a Slayer?

Rasputin & the Prussian Generals & Charlotte Corday were all mentioned by Buffy in connection with her college studies.

A boot to the head for the Jesus comment *L*

C'mon! Any more?

[> [> [> Have you heard about the district of Dracula -- JCC, 12:18:10 06/14/02 Fri

This is actually true. A descendant of Vlad Tepes from Germany has set up his own country called Dracula. It costs $50 to become a citizen. He's angry that the tourism big wigs in Germany aren't turning Vlad's (German) castle in into a tourist attraction. Lets all go move in and become Draculians. :)

[> [> [> [> Draculites? Draconians? Draconistas?hehehe -- Arethusa, 14:09:06 06/14/02 Fri

[> Re: Historical Vampires, Slayers & Watchers... -- O'Cailleagh, 13:07:52 06/14/02 Fri

Maid Marian could have been a Slayer, with the Merry Men her Scooby Gang. Perhaps Robin was her Watcher?
Another possibility would be Aradia, the 14th century Italian Witch, who was a bit of a Joan of Arc/Robin Hood/Jesus figure.

Final Haiku Listing (all) -- LittleBit, 09:39:19 06/14/02 Fri

Here is a listing of the haikus that were included in the game (on board and in chat); if I missed any, or have the wrong episode, I apologize!!

Haiku Game: hiatus is here / episode summary game / poems like sneezes - LittleBit
ATPo board: Keyboard life as if / Philosophy were raindrops / Electronic id - OnM

Season 1

Welcome to the Hellmouth: New world, but no escape. / New friends so stunned they must gape. / One dies with pierced nape. - Brian
The Harvest: Deep, dark, ancient lair. / Stirs one to rise, so very rare. / Stopped by Buffy's flair. - Brian
The Witch: Go orange Buffy ! / Appearance is deceiving / Evil is older - Ete (1st possibility)
I Robot, You Jane: a scary amount of computer sessions / could this lead to their possession? / (for me this ep's a big obsession!) - O'Cailleagh
Nightmares: Birthdays are no fun. / Except for the chocolatey / Goodness. That can stay! - Rob
Prophecy Girl: the Hellmouth opens / who will be the master now / death is not the end - LittleBit

Season 2

School Hard: The Jedi Master / has failed in his ruse, but at / least the boy is safe. - Rob; Thursday, say welcome / Friday, hide and seek but on / saturday, nothing left! - Ete
Inca Mummy Girl: eternal unlife / senses remain unhindered / restored with a kiss - LittleBit
Halloween: ev'rything's switching / someone's come to change it all / outside to inside - LittleBit; Darkness lurks beneath; / Uncharacteristically / Dressed; undead but not. - Rob
Lie To Me: Wouldn't threaten her / were she a lonely one / yet she asks for it - Ete; A flock waits for its / saviors, welcoming them in. / Anne Rice would be proud - Rob
What's My Line part 2: Knife through father's hand/that should do the trick for her/ my dark angel love - Ronia; Balance has shifted/ Now I am the strong one who'll / nurse you back to health - Rob
Ted: Too good to be true. / Won't stand for that malarkey. / Putt putt, anyone? - GreatRewards
Bad Eggs: Sulfer smell makes a stink. / Scrambled friends betray, can't think. / Buffy axes the offending link. - Brian
I Only Have Eyes For You: eternally bound / love and guilt will hold us close / reversal frees us - LittleBit
Go Fish: we are the champions / this is not a children's game / freedom is now ours - LittleBit
Becoming Part 1: Run fast little girl / He has been a red herring / Late! They are fallen - Ronia
Becoming Part 2: that which was is now / strength is forged in pain and grief / the burden too great - LittleBit; The fight is won, but / a heart's split in twain. Alas, / no hugs and puppies! - Rob

Season 3

Anne: No one takes the blame; / Life is hard, broken, and lame. / Buffy speaks her name. - Brian
Beauty and the Beasts: containing the rage / this is not a fairy tale / soothe the savage breast - LittleBit
Band Candy: This sorceror may / fulfill your wish of / Being young again - Ete
Revelations: power in clothing / power in meditation / power in friendships - LittleBit; Secrets and shadows, / Vamp and Watcher want the hand / which one should she trust ? - Ete; the sky is falling / another apocalypse / tuesday chez buffy - Julia
Lover's Walk: Magic to break or / Magic to bring together / - Heartbreak free for all - Ete
Amends: Miraculous dark! / You stand here triumphant, as / the night breathes its last - Rob
Helpless: Come take you nasty / medication; you'll feel all / better! Down the hatch - Rob; In the big house / Mummy is receiving a guest / who's very hungry - Ete
The Zeppo: Scoobies save the world. / Xander saves the Scooby Gang. / "I Like the quiet." - GreatRewards
Consequences: too much to cope with / if not truth then the other / betrays my calling
Dopplegangland: Vamp Willow took charge / Gang did terrorize the Bronze / Willow said "Bored now." - GreatRewards
Enemies: Blood over the shirt / Who's better at pretending / Games of chains and mind - Ete; Betraying Slayer, / a dark shroud lights the mansion, / a fake evil vamp. - JCC
Choices: Willow asks of Buffy: / "Of the two people here, which / is the boss of me?" - GreatRewards
The Prom: One perfect moment, / ruined by caring too much, / It was not too late - JCC; Formal Frenzy bad. / Scoobies try to go cool rad. / Now is Buffy glad. - Brian
Graduation part 2: Snake eats the weasel / Darkness and chaos prevail / Fire cleanses the scene - collinwood

Season 4

The Freshman: the new horizon / challenges and adventure / fear paralyzes - LittleBit
Fear Itself: Trapped in a nightmare / Of sheer fluffy white terror. / Translate the caption - Rob
Wild at Heart: primitive urges / primal desires unbound / run their course through them - LittleBit
Something Blue: Bicker like children / Grieve over the one who left her / Unexpected love looms - Deeva
Hush: deafening silence / that is the heart of it all / unaccustomed sound - LittleBit; Pretty songs can lead / To Hell. Once they're over, the / Darkness captures all. - Rob
Doomed: Who are you really / Bogeyman for little bads / Diving for the word - Deeva
A New Man: Look into my eyes / and if I taugh you well / know what is my name - Ete
This Year's Girl: Face to face meeting / with one long forgotten / leads to change of name - Ete
Who Are You?: Feeling out of place, / staring at the mirror, but / no recognition. - Rob
Where The Wild Things Are: Buffy getting laid / House tries to kill Buffy's friends / Buff can't get enough! - GreatRewards
Primeval: Four becoming one. / Power beyond all power. / 'First' man is now dead. - GreatRewards
Restless: Not to wake nor sleep, / A friend from another time, / or an enemy. - JCC; A diffrent slayer. / Out of history's cold dead past. / Wreaks havoc to feel. - cat

Season 5

The Replacement: Do my eyes deceive / me with double-vision or / is it true? But how? - Rob
Out Of My Mind: to die or not to / if it's not i only want / to kiss you - oh no! - Ete
No Place Like Home: A blond mystery, / Revelations close to home, / To protect the one. - JCC; black leather coat swirls / cigarette cherry glows bright /out for a walk bitch - julia
Family: Do not see me / For I am ugly they say / But you saw me truly - Ete
Fool For Love: Three are the loves / Two are the keys to fame / One burns bright - Deeva
Triangle: Childhood love, new love / No one let's her finish / Stop hammering please - Deeva
Checkpoint: Question and answer / A directorate challenged / Loath assent given - Deeva
Crush: Dark bound in tribute / Wickedness lands in the depot / Light bound for amour - Deeva; A fallen big bad, / who is in love with his flame, / joins to drive sire mad. - JCC; Nummy treats to choose / from, a vampire's buffet! Blonde, / Brunette...all tasty! - Rob; To choose between / One blind of insight and / One blind of mind - Ete
Tough Love: Leperous hobbits serve / Mimosas in the tub / To a skanky goddess - Collinwood; Searing pain courses / through innocent hands. Only / a shell remains now. - Rob
Spiral: ancient enemies / bound by eternal conflict / destinies converge - LittleBit
The Weight of the World: safety lies within / the corridors of the past / 'tis but fantasy - LittleBit; Little Miss Muffet's / Breaths are silenced again and / Again; again and... - Rob
The Gift: buffy the hero / died so the world could have dawn / but the sun still sets - LittleBit; Parting at the steps / At the heartfelt confession / Leap of love and trust - Deeva

Season 6

After Life: Hands held reverence / Consequences uttered first / Existing and not - Deeva
Life Serial: Four tries for nothing / everyone think they know her / better than herself - Ete; Temporarily, / her sorrow's gone, except for / the horrible taste... - Rob
Tabula Rasa: Kiss beneath the stairs / Why is this happening now? / Who am I to her? - collinwood
Gone: Cleansing the abode / Shiny piece of temptation / Soon to melt away - Deeva
Doublemeat Palace: Go orange Buffy ! / Appearance is deceiving / Evil is older - Ete (2nd answer)
As You Were: One stinky slayer / Out damn grass stain! Out I say! / Can they be perfect? - Deeva
Hell's Bells: Illusions of light / shattered, dreams of happiness / slip through their fingers. - Rob
Normal Again: feeling down and out, / chasing when you get a poke, / into a new world. - JCC
Entropy: A human demon, / changed in a horrible time, / abandoned and found. - JCC (also Hell's Bells); spike is so cool and / i mean the girl is hot too / andrew butt monkey - Julia
Villains: fear grips my soul, for / just one look, and I knew the / countdown had begun - Rob
Two To Go: willow flayed warren / she's off the wagon again / bad willow bad witch - Julia

Angel the Series

Room with a View: Cordy's moving woes / Not Diet / "You got peanut butter on the sheets." - Isabel
I Fall to Pieces: More by each he stalks; / With bedroom eyes, still he mocks; / Angel beats the flock. - Brian
Lullaby: Lock of binding love / Blessed by actions from above / Brings forth hawk or dove - Brian

[> Cool, LB! I was thinking of compiling them myself! Glad you beat me to it. ;o) -- Rob, 10:09:39 06/14/02 Fri

[> Re: Nice work, LB - Many Thanks -- Brian, 10:17:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> Thanks for doing that LB! -- Deeva, 10:31:27 06/14/02 Fri

I slipped this one in somewhere in the gigantic thread :

Dead Things
Nothing is wrong / Controlled by another / What I have become

Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) -- Kuroshiro, 10:38:59 06/14/02 Fri

Hello all - been lurking here for quite a while now, finally decided to come out and play! Apologies if this re-treads old ground - I'm watching from Ireland so Angel just ended here last night, and I haven't had time to troll through all the archives just yet to see if there's a similar thread.

Ok, it seems to me that Tomorrow leaves us with a very obvious heaven/hell counterpoint, intercutting between Cordelia ascending into heaven (or at least into the heavens) in a blaze of light, wearing a (faintly un-Cordeliaesque) white robe and sandals, and Angel sinking into the depths of the ocean, dressed entirely in black (not quite so much new there, then).

Each is judged by an outside party, albeit one who doesn't necessarily know all the facts. Conor condemns Angel to what would be the biblical (and therefore presumably also Holtz's) interpretation of hell; the suffering of eternal torment. In this decision he oversteps even the role of executioner and starts, almost literally, playing God.

Similarly, Skip informs Cordelia that she is 'ready' to go, even though she does not think so herself. His assertion that she is a higher being she finds 'ridiculous', but ultimately his decision wins out. Higher being she may be, but she can't control her own destiny. In the end, we're presented with a white-clad Cordelia rising, a black-clad Angel falling - and where's Wesley, last time we saw him? Flat on his back, naked. Trapped in Limbo.

There's been a lot of discussion of Wes, post-Forgiving, turning to the dark side or becoming evil. At this point, though, what has he done that could be classified as truly evil? The strongest evidence is his initial refusal to help Gunn in The Price, but even then he offers first the justification that "Angel will figure out a way to kill (the Sluks) eventually", and then relents pretty quickly when he learns Fred is dying. Otherwise, there is his moment of hesitation about Justine, and his treatment of Lilah last night - grabbing her neck and telling her "I wasn't thinking about you when you were here" are pretty harsh all right, but then we are dealing with a woman who enquires breezily if someone who's just had their throat slit needs a lozenge. I'm thinking she can take the harsh.

Wesley has the potential for salvation or slaughter like anyone else, but it really doesn't seem like he's chosen yet. For weeks he's been in physical as well as emotional stasis; immobile in a hospital bed, hiding in his flat, drinking alone in bars - for all that he is full of 'rage, frustration and hate' he only acts on that when action is forced upon him by the intrusion of others, such as Lilah and Gunn. Even then, his actions don't make a huge amount of difference to his mental state; rejecting AI hasn't changed how he feels, and neither has sleeping with Lilah. For a while there it seemed Wes's journey was directly paralleling Angel's after 'The Trial'; both worked to avoid the damnation of another, only to see Darla's and Conor's fates snatched out of their hands; then came episodes where neither one spoke a word, followed by an extended 'beige' period and sex with a sworn enemy. But while Angel's sleeping with Darla altered his entire world view, Wesley's sleeping with Lilah has left him right back where he started. Before, in the bar, he tells her "I think you should leave now"; and after, in bed, he tells her to "get out". And finally he's left alone, staring up at the ceiling again, just as he was back in Forgiving and Double or Nothing.

Wesley was judged by others long before Angel and Cordelia; his friends' refusal to listen to him condemned him to this state of suspension, no longer actively fighting the battle against evil, but not yet promoting it either. His position in the finale is not made quite as explicit as that of his former friends, but it is just as fixed - he is the missing horizontal between their two verticals. So if the three people in Cordy's photograph are ever to be reunited, there's going to be a serious struggle involved to free all of them. After all, Angel's already escaped from hell once, but how is Wesley ever to get out of Limbo? Any thoughts?

[> Re: Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) -- Masq, 10:52:08 06/14/02 Fri

"Wesley's sleeping with Lilah has left him right back where he started."

I disagree. For all his apparent indifference and hostility, I don't think Wesley came out of sex with Lilah unscathed. Because I don't think he went into it unscathed. Lilah may be an attractive woman, but she is one scary bitch and Wesley from six months ago would not have become intimate with her no matter how good she looks.

The fact that Wesley slept with her is a sign he is losing his connection with the things he valued so dearly a few months ago. He's falling into a "who cares, what does it matter what I do?" state of mind. Depression, apathy.

The only way for him to get out of it is to have a really big wake-up call. Something larger than Fred's-life-is-in-danger. Don't know what it will be, but can't wait to find out. You know, after watching the Wesley-sinking-into-the-pit (out of limbo and into the hornet's nest) fun.

[> Re: Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) and future guesses -- Arethusa, 11:22:04 06/14/02 Fri

Wesley is making a descent typical of the noir protagonist, and he should have a great deal farther to fall. (Not at the bottom level of Hell yet.) After the noir antihero is cast out from or leaves his family and the rest of society, he descends into a world of "crime, corruption, and cruelty." Often he is dragged down by a woman, a femme fatale, who tries to lead him to a life of degredation, or death. His moral code erodes as his comromises with the enemy blur the lines between good and evil. He is isolated, despairing, and full of hopelessness. After he hits rock bottom, usually he and the femme kill each other.

Probably Wes will bcome involved more with Lilah's W&H plans. I doubt Wes will die, but in noir the bad woman virtually always dies at the end, and it would certainly shock Wes out of his depression if Lilah dies because of his actions. And we all know how ME loves to kill off regulars.

Personal aside: I'm writing a paper on noir and "Angel." Anyone want to read it?

[> [> Post it! -- Masq, 11:45:36 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Put me & MM down for that one! Noir, wheeeoo! -- SingedCat, 12:15:06 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Where's Wesley? (Spoilers for Angel, Tomorrow) (long-ish!) and future guesses -- LeeAnn, 12:43:16 06/14/02 Fri

I think he's going into W&H as a mole, as a spy to try and help Angel and thus redeem himself. I don't think he's turned to the darkside at all.

Maybe if he wasn't so cute I could think worse of him.

[> Stephanie Romanov/Alexis Denisof in the remake of "Double Indemnity"... -- cjl, 12:11:20 06/14/02 Fri

With Andy Hallett in the Edward G. Robinson role.

Ms. Romanov does fit the profile of the film noir femme fatale (Barbara Stanwyck, Mary Astor), and she's certainly got the look. Arethusa, post your paper, post-haste!

SMG on Howard Stern -- Hoping, 11:01:59 06/14/02 Fri

Did anyone catch it? must have been interesting.

[> Re: SMG on Howard Stern -- MaeveRigan, 11:07:58 06/14/02 Fri

Not even SMG could make me endure Howard Stern. But I salute her for facing someone whose persona is a real live monster. Buffy would be proud. I hope she slew him.

[> [> I heard it...and she was well up to the task. -- Rob, 11:12:45 06/14/02 Fri

She was very polite, funny, sweet...and would not let Howard or Robin talk her into airing any dirty laundry about certain unnamed soap opera queens...

I don't usually listen to Howard Stern, but this week my friend's been driving me to work, and he listens...so, this week, I listen. Last week, Howard was making fun of her, basically taunting her to come on the show. And she did. So I'm proud of her for that.

And, yes, she kicked butt!

Rob

[> [> [> Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- MayaPapaya9, 11:18:58 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- Darby, 11:29:12 06/14/02 Fri

Here are a couple of links sites that might hook you up...

http://www.animaux.net/stern/

http://www.angelfire.com/on/howardstern/links.html

The list here is just disturbingly huge...

Howard is a Buffy fan, and SMG, AH and ED have appeared on his tv show in the past (ah, the wonders of late night impatience and remote control...). I've noticed that he tends to not ask the Jules Asner-type questions...

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- Rob, 11:34:14 06/14/02 Fri

Howard asked her about her religion, and about the Susan Lucci-ness.

And she did not answer.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is there anywhere I could get a transcript of that?? -- Rob, 11:35:38 06/14/02 Fri

Make that, she answered, but was very discreet...and vague.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Religion -- DickBD, 12:53:09 06/14/02 Fri

I like the Buffy character so much that I am a little hesitant to learn too much about the actress that plays her. Obviously, she can't live up to Buffy. Still, it would be nice to think she is nearly as nice a person. As long-time atheist, I would prefer to think that she is not religious--but I'll settle for just Joss Whedon if I have to!

I read here, I think, that SMG wears a cross and that she seems to be religious. I console myself with the idea that the cross may just be part of the Buffy image. Even if she were not religious, it would be discreet of her to be vague about it for the sake of her popularity as an actress.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion -- Hellraiser, 13:05:02 06/14/02 Fri

*As long-time atheist, I would prefer to think that she is not religious--but I'll settle for just Joss Whedon if I have to!
I read here, I think, that SMG wears a cross and that she seems to be religious. I console myself with the idea that the cross may just be part of the Buffy image. Even if she were not religious, it would be discreet of her to be vague about it for the sake of her popularity as an actress.*

Hey Dick, get real...you "console yourself" to the hope that there are others who restrain themselves to the eventuality of the dust with no hope or belief in something more. Good luck to you.....you need it!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dissing Someone's religious Beliefs, Thats uncalled for -- Dochawk, 13:35:00 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dissing Someone's religious Beliefs, Thats uncalled for -- Hellraiser, 07:43:51 06/15/02 Sat

Can't Diss what one does not have....Dick said he was atheist, which means he has no belief except in the fact his ancestry involves amoebas.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There was no excuse for your original post and none for this response. -- Sophist, 16:16:44 06/15/02 Sat

The original post was not directed at you or anyone else. It was a form of musing aloud. It attacked no one; no different than if he'd said "I wish SMG would acknowledge her Jewish heritage." If you don't agree, just ignore his musing and move on.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Sophist. You said it better than I would have. -- redcat, 16:30:16 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm a Christian and I believe my ancestors were amoebas -- Apophis, 20:58:10 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Religion -- Maroon Lagoon, 17:34:48 06/14/02 Fri

Crosses don't necessarily mean anything. Haven't you heard? The latest fashion trend is to wear crosses just as jewelry, not statements of faith. I think people have been doing this for years, but now the Vatican is complaining about celebrities that do it.

Google informs me that on the Howard Stern show, SMG states that she doesn't believe in organized religion and never has.

Anyway, there's no real correlation between being religious and being a nice person. So many millions are religious that it covers a broad spectrum of every conceivable personality type. I'm an atheist too, but if you confine people you admire to just atheists, you're gonna have sliiiiim pickins!

From what I've seen of her public appearances, she seems pretty nice to me (did you see her 2000 episode of Fanatic?). I take rumors of bitchiness with a barrel of salt.

BTW, I enjoyed Buffy's line, "People used to bow down to gods. Things change."

p.s.: None of the cast members' religious views could affect my enjoyment of their characters, but it should be noted just for the record that Amy Acker worships, well, me. She has stated on numerous occasions that I'm like a god to her. You may make of that what you will.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Organized Religion -- Apophis, 18:10:19 06/14/02 Fri

This is off topic, but what does "organized religion" mean? Is it religion in general or is it religions with dogmas (dogmae?), leaders, prayers, etc.? For example, if one were to say that he places no stock in organized religion, does that make him an atheist or does he simply hold personal beliefs that aren't affected by institutions?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ix-nay on the urch-chay -- Maroon Lagoon, 21:29:05 06/14/02 Fri

"Does he simply hold personal beliefs that aren't
affected by institutions?" Yes. Doesn't have anything to do with atheism.

There's not necessarily an official demarcation between organized or not, but basically, if you say, "I subscribe to religion X," that's all it takes to be part of organized religion. It could be characterized by, for example, going to church, having a specific set of beliefs, one or more holy texts, a set of typical rituals to perform/songs to sing, being led by a pastor/minister/whatever, having a sense of community with other believers. Although, if somebody believes in all/most/some of the tenets of Christianity, thinks of himself as Christian and just doesn't go to church, but stays home on Sundays and prays by himself, I'd still call that being part of the organized religion of Christianity. But some people have a different usage of the term and would say the above person isn't into organized religion even though, for all practical purposes, he's a Christian. I would guess that some who might as well be Christians don't like the real or perceived rigidity, dogmatism, hypocracy, judgmentalness, exclusiveness, etc., that might be associated with certain church groups (relax, I know each church is different and I think this kind is in the minority). For Example, Ted Koppel hosted a town hall meeting recently and one audience member said he didn't want to allow sinners (homosexuals) into his church. Koppel replied, doesn't the Bible say we're all sinners? Why should you be allowed in your own church?
And others who have no animosity towards any church group simply don't feel like their personal convictions are represented by any denomination (e.g., some believe in Jesus, but they think he'll return on a UFO), or they don't feel a need for, as Bill Maher often says, "middlemen between them and God."

So I'd say all religion is organized. If your main personal beliefs don't mesh with any existing religion and you pray/meditate/whatever by yourself in way that's not in line with any particular tradition, then you could call yourself spiritual, but not religious.

I don't know if this is a longer reply than what you were looking for. Arf, Arf! Me so knowrigable!

Sincerely,
Maroon Lagoon, Expert on Things

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ix-nay on the urch-chay -- O'Cailleagh, 23:36:59 06/14/02 Fri

Organised religion is any religion that has an organisation behind it. Thus, Christianity (for example) is an organised religion as it has the Church (a politically-minded organisation). There are several religions that are not organised and do not have a 'governing body'-this does not reduce their religiousness (IMO, it increases it).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ix-nay on the urch-chay -- Hellraiser, 08:06:36 06/15/02 Sat

**Thus, Christianity (for example) is an organised religion as it has the Church (a politically-minded organisation)**
I disagree with your basic tenet: Christianity is a belief system of a FAITH(that of the blood on the cross given by the Son of the ONE TRUE GOD - YAHWEH) by which religions and their churches are based(as it is with other FAITHS). That is why there are so many religions..factions develop due to interpretations(usually selfish in nature) of the belief system. Because of this, one can be spiritual(within the FAITH) without being religious.

[> [> [> [> [> CC has appeared also, I downloaded her interview off of scour when it was around -- JBone, 16:40:17 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> You can find an mp3 on the SMG newsgroups -- grifter, 14:40:29 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Re: You can find an mp3 on the SMG newsgroups - I tried Unsuccessfully -- Hoping, 17:42:23 06/14/02 Fri

S/W Journey: Buffy & OZ - Taming & Reconciling the Monstrous Id Part I(long!spoilers to Grave) -- shadowkat, 11:02:46 06/14/02 Fri

Spike/Willow Journey - Buffy and OZ, Taming and Reconciling the Monstrous Id
(Spoilers to Grave. Quotes from Psyche Transcripts and Encarta Encyclopedia.)

"These are the things we want. Simple things. Comfort, sex, shelter, food. We always want them and we want them all the time. The id doesn't learn it doesn't grow up. It has the ego telling it what it can't have and it has the superego telling it what it should want. But the id works solely out of the pleasure principle. It wants. Whatever social skills you've learned, however much we've evolved, the pleasure principal is at work in all of us. So, how does this conflict with the ego manifest itself in the psyche? What do we do when we can't have what we want?" (Professor Walsh, Beer Bad, Season 4, Btvs.)

Definitions taken from Encarta Encyclopedia (http://encarta.msn.com) - this is how I'm interpreting the terms as discussed in the above quote:

1. The "id": sexual and aggressive tendencies that arise from the body, as distinguished from the mind. These inherent drives claim immediate satisfaction, which is experienced as pleasurable.

2. The "ego": domain of such functions as perception, thinking, motor control that can accurately assess environmental conditions. The ego must be capable of enforcing the postponement of satisfaction of the instinctual impulses originating in the id. To defend itself against unacceptable impulses, the ego develops specific psychic defense mechanisms = repression, the exclusion of impulses from conscious awareness; projection, the process of ascribing to others one's own unacknowledged desires; and reaction formation, the establishment of a pattern of behavior directly opposed to a strong unconscious need.

3. The "super-ego": controls the ego and the id in accordance with the internalized standards of parental figures and by extension society. If the demands are not fulfilled, we may feel guilt or shame. Morals and values are often formed in the super-ego. (for more information - check out Encarta encyclopedia.)

The Beast or the primal impulse. The Want, Take, Have, forget the consequences aspect of our psyche. The dark id. It has many names. Some equate it with the animal, the reptile that we all evolved from. Others equate it with the subconscious, that murky part of the human soul, which we are afraid to look at too closely except of course when we dream or create.

The idea of the id as a beast residing just beneath the surface of our psyche has been explored by numerous novelists, comic books, movies, and artists. In the comic book Spiderman - the villain the Green Goblin is the epitome of a man losing control over his beast. Industrial scientist Norman Osborn, who is on the verge of losing an important government contract, drinks a dangerous potion that unleashes all his angry primal impulses turning him into a homicidal maniac, the beast. In the movie version - we see Norman battling The Goblin persona in the mirror. Back and forth he switches from kind, frightened, and desperate Norman to wicked, ambitious, cruel Goblin. One is the nerdy scientist that identifies with nerdy Peter Parker (aka Spiderman) and the other is the wicked villain who tries to destroy Spiderman's life. Robert Louis Stevenson wrote a similar story over a century ago in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - versions of which have appeared on Broadway, the Bugs Bunny Show, and in several movies, the best, a 1930s classic, starring Spencer Tracy. So the idea is not a new one, actually it is very old and very much part of our collective psyche. The stories that get retold tend to be the ones that we can't figure out or resolve. They obsess us, live inside us, take on a life of their own and through us live inside the consciousness of our society and our art. Remember one of the greatest heroes of Greek myths - Hercules, went insane and killed his family. Often the hero finds himself flipping to the dark side, struggling to reconcile himself with the beast that resides within him. The current hit at the box office - Star Wars Episode II: Attack of The Clones deals with this very theme: a hero who is slowly becoming one of the greatest movie villains of all time, Darth Vader. As Joseph Campbell indicates in his series Masks of the Gods - we create myths, building new ones on the foundation of the old, and set our beliefs, our behaviors and our rules by them.

BTvs similarly explores the struggle between humans and their internal beasts with a mix of mythos, metaphor and real world allegory. Here they use age-old fairy tale images - the werewolf, the vampire, the mystically endowed slayer, and the witch.

I. OZ and Spike: the werewolf and the vampire

Werewolves and vampires have been around in oral legends, myths, and folktales for centuries. The Werewolf legend originated in Germany around 1591, concerning the horrible atrocities of a man named Peter Stubbe, who was known to take on the aspects of a wolf when he committed them. His atrocities were beyond human experience (think Hannibal Lector mixed with Charles Manson). So as his story spread throughout Germany , people linked the atrocities with the behavior of a wolf. Believing it was the beast within the man who did this - the shadow of the wolf. (taken from http://members.tripod.com). The vampire first emerged from the Jewish legend of Lilith and Cain. According to this ancient pre-AD legend - Cain, first born of Adam and Eve, found Lilith who showed him the power of blood and turned Cain into the first vampire. Cain is referenced as the creator of monsters or first wicked man in Beowulf. (taken from www.angelfire.com/tn/vampires/step3.html ) Both, at least in the Buffyverse share this particular trait: No conscience, predatory and aggressive.

Giles: Y-you see, uh, the-the werewolf, uh, is such a, a potent e-e-extreme representation of our inborn animalistic traits that it e-emerges for three full consecutive nights: the full moon and, uh, the two nights surrounding it. And it, uh, acts on-on pure instinct. No conscience, uh, uh, predatory and, and aggressive. (Phases, Season 2)

Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live. (Angel, Season 1)

In both myths the person usually becomes a werewolf or a vampire via an infection - such as a bite. In Buffyverse - the infection or bite does not appear to be by choice. Oz gets infected by his cousin and doesn't know he's a werewolf until odd things start happening. (Phases, Season 2, Btvs). Spike is bitten and sucks the blood of Drusilla - becoming a vampire. Giles describes this as the spreading of an infection in Harvest (Season 1, Btvs): "The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul." The human, William is not considered responsible for the monster he becomes any more than OZ appears to be culpable for what he does while a werewolf. As Giles states in Phases: "No matter who this werewolf is, i-it's still a human being, who may be completely unaware of his or her condition." Or at least at first this appears to be the case. Later in Season 4, OZ actually begins to take responsibility for what he does as a werewolf. And the acts he commits while a werewolf in Season 4 Btvs are remarkably similar to Spike's acts at the end of Season 6.

In Wild at Heart, Season 4 Btvs, OZ meets a woman who relishes the monster inside her. Veruca. Veruca is a little like Willow in Season 6. She loves the power or the primal energy that the wolf gives her. "The animal. And it's powerful... Inside me all the time. Soon you'll feel sorry for other people. They only wish they could be as alive as we are. As free-" (Veruca, Wild at Heart) She remembers what happens and lets the wolf out. She encourages OZ to do the same. She encourages him to accept the beast inside him, to drink in its power, to reconcile himself with it. Instead of being so focused in controlling it. (Reminds me a little of Spike in Season 6 with Buffy - encouraging her to retreat into the dark with him. To enjoy being the animal. "I've never been with such a bloody animal." Or "you belong in the dark, with me." Dead Things.) Worried about Veruca's safety and the safety of others, OZ convinces her to spend the night with him in his cage. She scolds OZ for letting himself be domesticated. Just as they are turning they fall into each other's arms and make wild passionate animal love. The next morning - Willow discovers their naked bodies entwined in OZ's cage and freaks.

Very similar to Anya and Spike's coupling in Entropy (Season 6). Except Anya and Spike are seeking comfort and the sex is really passionless. What is similar - is once again we have two people with beasts inside them, unleashing those primal tendencies for a moment of comfort and solace. Spike comes to the magic box to numb his pain. He is, to his credit, struggling to control the negative impulses raging inside him. Just as Oz is to his credit struggling to control the beast inside himself. Except Spike is the beast all the time, it's the man who's been let of the cage by the chip. OZ is the man most of the time, it's the beast that that the moon and his anger lets out of the cage. Both have a human visage, both see themselves as men, but are they, really? Spike begins to think of himself as more of a man than a monster at the end of Season 5 and most of Season 6, it's really not until his attack on Buffy - that he realizes he's really just a caged monster not a man. OZ is the same way - he sees himself as the regular guy and only a wolf when the moon comes out, it's not until he kills Veruca and almost kills Willow, that he realizes the wolf is in him all the time, slowly taking control.

Until very recently, Spike like Veruca, didn't mind the beast and didn't see a need to control it. Now, in Entropy and Seeing Red, he's in pain and the beast is screaming for comfort. As Professor Walsh states in the beginning of Beer Bad: "The id doesn't learn it doesn't grow up. It has the ego telling it what it can't have and it has the superego telling it what it should want. But the id works solely out of the pleasure principle. It wants�" A soulless vampire in Btvs appears to be the id without negative restraints. Just as a werewolf in its wolf form is the id predominant. If we define the soul as the ego and super-ego converged - the part of us that tells us what we can't have or shouldn't have and what we "should", not necessarily "want" to, strive for, what happens when the ego and/or super-ego are removed or submerged beneath the id? If submerged, we have the wild werewolf or beer bad cave Buffy. If removed? We have Spike sans chip. The chip provides a pseudo-ego or leash for the id. What it can't provide is the morality or "should strive for" motivational structure of the super-ego, for that you must have a soul. Once all three are present, you can choose to obey the super-ego, the id, or the ego. The choices we make, Professor Walsh states have a lot to do with the social manners that we are taught - the nurture over nature view, but without the super-ego or ego, the id is in control, alone it cannot interpret or incorporate these societal values. The id, Professor Walsh states, can't learn or grow up like a vampire - arrested in adolescence. Only the super-ego and ego can do that. The id in its purest form is the take, want, have reflex that we see portrayed in Spike - who up until now is the id leashed by the ego struggling to get what it wants made real. OZ's struggle is the id struggling for dominance over the superego and every twenty-eight days it succeeds.

Spike's little indiscretion in Entropy causes pain just as OZ's. Spike's id is hunting comfort and being a demon without a soul, his id is more or less in control so he has no choice but to gratify it. Of course his comfort is short lived and does not really give him what he wants. All it does is intensify his pain. The same problem occurs for OZ when he rewards the id by sleeping with Veruca. His motives are less opportunistic than Spike's - since he wants to keep Veruca from hurting anyone - by getting her to share his cage for the night. Of course OZ has the ego and super-ego giving him instructions. So from OZ's point of view - the id, ego, and super-ego what they want when he sleeps with Veruca - the id gets wild passionate unbridled sex, the ego gets to keep the id in a cage, the super-ego gets to save lives. Unfortunately Willow finds them and everyone gets hurt. The difference is OZ has a soul - the embodiment of the ego and superego. The other difference is Willow can and does love OZ, partly because he does have a soul. Buffy has broken up with and made clear to Spike that she cannot love him, because Spike does not have a soul. As pure id braced with an ego chip to control violent impulses - Spike can be a lot of fun to be with, she can let her own "id" take over, but he is not good for her super-ego, and Buffy needs someone with the whole package. It's the difference between being with someone who comforts and turns you on physically and someone who is good to you and enriches you emotionally and mentally as you enrich them.

It's hard to feel too sympathetic towards Buffy in Entropy. She did after all advise Spike to move on. Willow - your heart breaks for, because OZ's indiscretion came completely from left field. The difference between Willow and Buffy - is Willow relishes the primal, the id. Buffy is afraid of it - considering what she went through with Angel/Angelus almost killing all her friends - this makes sense. Willow doesn't really see the need to control her own - although she does help to control OZ's. She believes they can control it, together. That it only requires a cage, like the one she puts ratted Amy in. She does not really see the danger. Buffy, however, does. Buffy knows she can't trust Spike as long as his beast can break free at any time. She knows he's a time bomb. And what's more she knows that the chip is the only thing holding him back. Not her. Willow ignores this with OZ until he literally thrusts it in her face.

Both men end up attacking the women they love. And they both do it soon after their indiscretion. OZ in Wild at Heart, goes to save Willow from Veruca, in wolf form kills Veruca and almost attacks and kills Willow. In Oz's case the super-ego and ego gave into the id to protect Willow from Veruca - but once in pure "id" form - he lost control. Just as Dr. Jekyll loses control when he turns into Mr. Hyde or Norman Osborn loses control when he gives into the Green Goblin. Buffy pulls OZ away from Willow in the nick of time. Spike intends to just apologize to Buffy but the demonic id breaks free of the ego's restraints and things go horribly awry. He attacks her, almost raping her. And unlike Willow in Wild at Heart - Buffy is in a weakened state, vulnerable. So when Spike's demon "id" breaks loose, the results are ugly. Up until recently the chip leashed the negative impulses of the id. But now Spike can hurt Buffy. His negative impulses are no longer leashed when it comes to her. Something they both forgot. For the first time in two years - Spike loses control. The id rears its ugly head - making Buffy's fears a reality. Fears that were earlier put into words by Xander - "But I never forgot what he really is�. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just a leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working?" (Seeing Red) It's been so long since Spike was actually able to hurt Buffy that they both forgot he could now that the chip no longer operates when it comes to her. Ironic, since of all the characters - Buffy is the one Spike really doesn't want to hurt. Last summer, after she died, for 147 days, he thought of ways to save her. Spike believed he'd always keep his promise to her. That he could control the beast. That "he" would never hurt her. Turns out he was wrong. The demonic id will always take what it wants regardless of the consequences. The chip just held it back - it didn't tame it. OZ believed the same thing, except OZ always knew that he could hurt Willow, he knew the possibility always existed.

OZ and Buffy are far more rational than Willow and Spike. They acknowledge the beast's power and it scares them. It should terrify Willow and Spike but until the end of Season 6 and possibly during Smashed, I don't believe it ever did, they both believed they had it under control. In Smashed - Spike believes the chip has been deactivated and immediately goes out to bite someone. The id is gleefully rubbing its hands - ah the chip is no longer keeping me back, I can do what I want. Except two years with the chip has left an imprint, Spike has to talk himself into the attempt. Note he still attempts it. If it weren't for the chip - the girl would have been dead. But his hesitation shows remarkable progress. Willow in contrast, blatantly ignores the ego and super-ego and lets the id reign free in Smashed and Wrecked, recklessly endangering lives at the Bronze.

Both OZ and Spike react to their attacks on their lovers in the same way. OZ freaks, packs up his things and leaves Sunnydale. He does say goodbye to Willow first - but then he didn't actually hurt Willow. Buffy caught him before he was able to get near her. Also OZ and Willow have been in a loving relationship for over two years. This isn't the case with Spike and Buffy. As Spike tells Clem in Seeing Red: "We were never really together. She wouldn't lower herself that far." Spike and Buffy's relationship was never loving. When it wasn't a battle of wits, it was grudging respect, unbridled passion, companionship, and to some extent adoration from afar. It was in short far darker and complex than any relationship Willow has had.

In the last scene of Wild at Heart - OZ informs Willow that he has to find a way of controlling these urges. "The wolf is inside me all the time. And I don't know where the line is anymore - between me and it. Until I figure out what that means, I shouldn't be around you - or anybody." Each day that passes he senses the wolf more and more inside him. Not just when the moon is full. It terrifies him. This fear of losing control has been building within him - in Fear Itself, he cautions Willow regarding the use of her magic - stating: "I know what it's like to have power you can't control. I mean, every time I start to wolf out, I touch something -deep - dark. It's not fun." Willow does not heed his advice, losing control herself in the episode, her magic attacking her in the form of green fireflies. Buffy is more like OZ in this respect. She knows what it's like to have a power that could hurt someone if she lost control. In Normal Again she does - almost killing her friends. And as she states in Villains - "being the slayer, does not give me a license to kill." So, Buffy becomes the epitome of control. Monosyllabic OZ who barely expresses his emotions and appears to be calmly stoic and Buffy who similarly holds herself back after her mother dies and she's burdened with more responsibility than she can handle. Both are very contained, careful of the id, minding the ego and super-ego, while Spike and Willow are all over the place emotionally, obeying the dictates of the id.

While similar in theory, Spike's departure at the end of Season 6, is somewhat different than OZ's in Season 4. Oz left to reconcile the conflict between his id, ego and super-ego, bringing himself back into balance. He went to a Warlock to accomplish this and did not return to Willow until he learned to control his inner wolf. As OZ tells Willow in New Moon Rising, "This warlock in Romania sent me to the monks there to learn some meditation techniques. Very intense. All about keeping your inner cool�." (New Moon Rising. Season 4, Btvs) After his attack on Buffy - Spike also takes off. But he goes to Africa to seek out a demon lurking in a cave. Spike undergoes several rigorous trials, which result in the restoration of his soul or super-ego so that he wants to control the monster id. OZ who already has a soul, undergoes several mediations to keep his monster id submerged. Spike does not attempt to say goodbye to Buffy - probably because he can't imagine her wanting to see him after what he did. And he's still a chipped monster. "The chip won't let me be a monster and I can't be a man", he tells Clem. But both women are surprised to find the men gone. In Something Blue, Willow goes to OZ's dorm room and is devastated to find it completely empty. In Villains, Buffy goes to Spike's crypt and is upset to find him gone as well. Both ask when they are coming back and neither gets a clear answer. So clearly Buffy did care about Spike leaving, just as Willow cared about OZ. The difference? Buffy could never trust Spike enough to love him like Willow trusted OZ.

So will Spike return as OZ did, one with himself? The id finally under the control of the ego and super-ego. Will he lose control of it if Buffy moves on without him? Or will Spike return conflicted like Angel, no longer comfortable with the monster inside, struggling to keep it hidden, controlled at all costs? Will the addition of a super-ego and ego in the form of a soul and a chip, change him, make him the man he once was, burying the id beneath the social manners and values he held as a man? Who will have control over Spike, the demonic id or the super-ego of the soul? OZ came back - but the moment he didn't get what he wanted - the id overpowered him and took control forcing him to leave. Will this hold true for Spike?

Spike is in a different position than OZ. Although both were captured by the Initiative, OZ was freed before they implanted a neural inhibitor inside his head. Spike wasn't so lucky. Spike already has something controlling the monster. An artificial ego if you like. And Spike didn't choose it. Until now he hasn't wanted to control the monster. In Season 4 and part of Season 5, prior to his revelation about Buffy, all he wanted was to remove the chip. Now he doesn't care about the chip's existence as much as he cares about a soul. He wants to be the man he once was not the caged monster he currently is. Now that he's discovered the chip isn't enough to ensure he doesn't hurt Buffy, he wants something else, something greater to cage his beast. Unlike OZ, Spike was reconciled with his monster -it's not until now that he wants no part of it. OZ had limited control and needed greater control and to do that had to reconcile with it on some level. When OZ returns - he seems more comfortable with himself and his fate. When he left he was conflicted, out of control. Will the same thing happen for Spike? Up until Season 4 Spike seemed comfortable with himself and his fate. Then he got chipped and fell for Buffy - now he hates himself and requires change. Will the soul help? OR will it make him more like OZ, fearful of the monster within? What does it take to reconcile with the id? To tame it? To not let it control us? To not let the id tell us who we are? What does it take to resolve the super-ego's conflict with the id in the super-ego's favor?

(Questions answered in part II. Feedback? Thoughts? shadowkat)

[> Re: S/W Journey: Buffy & OZ - Taming & Reconciling the Monstrous Id Part II(long!spoilers to Grave) -- shadowkat, 11:05:09 06/14/02 Fri

PART II of Spike/Willow Journey Taming & Reconciling Monsterous ID

II. Willow and Buffy: the witch and the vampire slayer

Willow and Buffy, the witch and the slayer - both have struggled with the id. Buffy currently reflects the dominance of the super-ego while Willow represents the dominance of the id. Willow is now in a similar place to OZ and Spike, she wants it - she takes it. Buffy is getting overwhelmed by the conflict going on between the ego and the super-ego. She is striving to be all things to all people, but unable to handle the emotional and psychological overload. As a result we have her projecting her desires and anguish onto others. She projects her self-hatred onto Spike in Smashed and Dead Things - accusing him of being an evil soulless thing and almost beating him to a pulp. In Wrecked she projects her own shame onto Willow, comparing her relationship with Spike with Willow's use of magic. "You should give it up�no matter how good it feels," she says at the end of Wrecked.

In Season 6, both Willow and Buffy are struggling. As Tillow, Rahael, and Ixchel stated in the excellent depression threads - both women have been struggling with elements of depression this season. What happens to the ego when it is undergoing severe bouts of depression or anxiety? What defense mechanisms are used? Does the id start to reassert itself - taking pleasure where it can?

In Season 4, Btvs, Willow deals with OZ's departure by first getting drunk - a similar response to Buffy's handling of the Parker situation in Beer Bad. Except Buffy didn't love Parker. Parker was Buffy's way of getting past Angel. When alcohol doesn't work, Willow goes back to her tried and true staple of magic. Since Season 3, Willow has used magic to fix things to her liking, whether it be saving the universe (Angel's cure in Becoming), giving her friend a birthday gift (Gingerbread and the protection spell), or defending herself against unbidden sexual desires (Lover's Walk and the delusting spell). In Dopplegangerland (Season 3) - we get to see Willow sans superego. VampWillow's all id and ego. The morality is gone which makes the ego somewhat twisted, like Spike sans chip. Without the super-ego, the ego has no reason to hold back the negative impulses of the id. So it's interesting in Season 6, when we begin to see Willow fall into the same behavior and speech patterns as VampWillow in Dopplegangerland. Willow at the end of Dopplegangerland, feels the same sense of shame Xander feels at the end of the Pack (Season 1) - the super-ego overwhelms her. She tells Buffy she'll stay a virgin forever, never venture out, stay pure. Then Percy, the bane of her existence arrives and instead of baiting her or forcing her to do his homework, turns in two completed papers and gives her an apple. VampWillow's treatment of Percy apparently worked. And the end result satisfied the ego, super-ego and id - hence no conflict. Willow asks Buffy what time she'd like to meet at the Bronze. Apparently the resolution is to reconcile all three. Instead of placing the evil id in chains, the ego creates defenses against the id's negative/destructive impulses while the superego guides it in the right direction. The id = drive, the ego = control and the superego = the moral goal.

Buffy as the slayer = listens to all three. In Beer Bad - even though she desperately wants to kill Parker, the boy who rudely dumped her, and it's arguable that cave Buffy is id personified - when push comes to shove - she saves his life. Even if it means hitting him over the head to do it, which appeases the id who desires vengeance. Buffy is far from perfect, but considering she has the power to pummel a normal human to death, she shows great restraint. The reasons can be ascribed partly to Giles and Joyce - her parental morality structure. As Giles states in Tabula Rasa - he provided her with the moral structure to be a slayer and her mother provided her with the moral framework to be a good person. In Villains, when she explains to Xander and Dawn why it is wrong to exact vengeance on Warren or any human no matter what their crimes - we see a combination of Joyce and Giles' teachings. These teachings also appear to extend to demons - Giles has taught her that it is wrong to use and abuse Spike, rendered harmless with the chip. In Something Blue he tells both Spike, currently chained in Giles' bathtub, and Buffy that they won't hurt a harmless creature. Once they determine he is harmless they will let him go. Giles also takes measures to help Spike when he shows up with a tracking device implanted in him. Giles behavior towards Spike serves as an example to the SG as well as to Spike. We learn societal and moral behavior patterns through our role models - in Btvs this would be Giles - the parent figure. Of the Scoobs - Giles spends the most time teaching Buffy. Buffy has the added advantage of Joyce. We don't know much about Willow's parents except that they appear to be relatively uninvolved in her life and when they are they attribute her behavior to psychological processes.

We have even less information regarding Spike and OZ's backgrounds. OZ appears to be fairly well adjusted. Spike - well his parental role models as a vampire were Dru, Angelus, and Darla. But Spike really doesn't have a super-ego or much of an ego for that matter. The superego houses the psyche's moral framework, which it obtains from parental and societal role models. The demon soul appears to be mostly id with just enough ego to ensure evil results. And the id doesn't learn. The chip may have added a little more ego to the mix, controlling the more violent impulses of Spike's demon psyche. But it's hardly a super-ego - the chip doesn't provide him with goals or reasons outside of the ones important to the id. He has no desire or knowledge of bigger goals. He protects Buffy and her extended family because that provides him with comfort, sex, food and shelter from Buffy and her extended family. Their loss - removes those items. The chip keeps him from hurting them or anyone else directly. It does not prevent him from doing so indirectly in order to please himself. (Examples: the demon eggs, kitty poker, seeking asylum from the loan-shark�)

What about William? Well - from Fool for Love - we know that William had a hatred of violence and seemed to prefer creating objects of beauty. These are the goals of the super-ego or in Jossverse the soul. Creating something to make others feel good. We also know that he had a close relationship with his mother who was possibly controlling. The Victorian period is known historically to be pretty strict when it came to societal morals. You did not curse or show affection in public. That risqu� Bronze scene between Buffy and Spike in Dead Things - would have been a strict no-no in Victorian Society. Pre-martial sex and violence were frowned upon. William as he is described in Fool For Love appears to be the epitome of the proper, self-styled, scholarly Victorian gentlemen. "I prefer not to think of such things," he haughtily tells the aristocrats who ask his opinion on a recent spat of murders, "that's what the police are for. I prefer to concentrate on creating things of beauty." This leads me to believe in the establishment of a strict moral code in William, far stricter than Liam's or Darla's who did not have close relationships with their parents and led fairly violent lives prior to their vamping. So - if Spike regains William's soul - would his super-ego's moral structure be the extreme opposite of the demon's?? William seems to be all super-ego, his ego repressing the id in order to maintain the high moral standards expected in his social sphere -as is demonstrated in his appearance, mannerisms, and costume: the suite, the cravat, the glasses, and the scholarly demeanor. He looks exactly like Giles, who represents Buffy's moral guide. When William becomes Spike, his super-ego is torn away and his id is unleashed - hence the black leather jacket, blatant sexuality, violent demeanor, cigarettes, alcohol, and platinum blond hair. What happens when the extremes meet? The loosely seductive bad-boy vamp meets the morally uptight poet? For OZ to control the id or inner beast - he went and found new methods for the ego to keep the impulses under control and resolve the conflict. OZ's moral structure was intact, so he had the internal desire to control the id. The conflict was actually more with his ego, who was struggling to do its job. Spike's chip keeps most of his violent impulses under control, but without a soul, he doesn't have the overlapping moral structure to want to do so. Nor does he have the desire to help others outside of those who can please his id. So when the chip deactivates, the demon's ego only works to promote the impulses of the beast, whether those be negative or positive in nature.

Back to Willow and Buffy. Willow and Buffy obviously have the moral structure. And up until Season 4, Willow appeared to be the most morally upstanding of the SG. She wouldn't even leave school grounds for lunch. And debates eating a banana prior to lunch as a rebellion. (Doppelgangerland). But as Anya says in that over-quoted line from Smashed, when responsible people get a taste of being bad - it's seductive and they want more until they go all kablooey. Willow's id has been straining at the bit for sometime. She's been so repressed emotionally - that it's no wonder she explodes or goes kablooey. What causes it is the denial of those things she craves: comfort and sex. Without comfort and sex - the other two, food and shelter seem meaningless. The first time she goes kablooey is in Something Blue - when she attempts to fix her problem with magic. Buffy, the super-ego, tells Willow, the id, that she needs to work through the pain - that she can't just make it go poof. Wishing to make the pain go away, Willow casts a spell in which she hopes she can "will" her pain away. Instead she "wills" chaos on all her friends. Not unlike the chaos Buffy almost causes in Beer Bad as cave Buffy. And like Buffy, Willow does reverse the spell in the nick of time. Chaos isn't exactly bad in either instance - since it pushes Buffy past her pain in Beer Bad and gives her a sense of closure and provides Willow with a similar sense of closure in Something Blue - where she appears to learn that magic doesn't solve problems it just makes them worse. The second time, Willow uses magic to fix things is in Tough Love - where once again comfort and sex are removed. Buffy once again reins her in, saving her from Glory the unfettered id.
The third time - Willow uses her magic to bring Buffy back to life. In this case, Willow's id, super-ego and ego are all in agreement - she must bring Buffy back before the world of Sunnydale crumbles into hell. She also honestly believes Buffy is in hell. The fourth time is the charm - Tara is shot and killed and Willow goes kablooey. She briefly went kablooey before when Tara left her and she injured Dawn, but nowhere near what she does when she literally and figuratively loses her lover and all the pleasure her lover represents. In torment - Willow's id breaks past all her ego's defenses and overtakes her super-ego. It is in control. As Willow states in Grave - "Willow (the super-ego) doesn't live here anymore."

Buffy is the reverse. When she comes back from the grave she is struggling for a sense of balance. At first she wanders about in a haze just going through the motions. As time passes the moral structure that has always guided her begins to crack. She craves comfort and passion. Sex provides both. Sex without strings that is. But her moral structure, the part of her that strives to be something more, the slayer - the super-hero, can't handle the id's desires. The two become conflicted and the ego struggles to deal with it. Professor Walsh's old question arises: So, how does this conflict with the ego manifest itself in the psyche? What do we do when we can't have what we want? Buffy wants to go back to Heaven where she was warm, comforted, provided for and loved. Done. She tries numerous ways of either replicating the experience or getting there. The first is suicide with the singing demon in OMWF, the second is sex with Spike in Smashed through As You Were, the third is the asylum world - which she can only retreat to if she kills her friends and family in the basement of her mind. But the super-ego can't stomach any of these choices. It is at war with the ego to stop them. Buffy's suicide is stopped by Spike. The super-ego's inability to handle the shameful sex with Spike causes the ego to project the super-ego's misery onto Spike. The other way the ego handles this conflict is by denying the relationship. Neither works for the super-ego. And Buffy feels intense shame and guilt as a result. Finally, the super-ego wins and Buffy ends the relationship and retreats to the third and final choice - the asylum world. She has repressed her rage at being brought back to life until it explodes onto her friends and Dawn, whom she attempts to destroy. But her super-ego, the moral structure her parents imbued in her, cannot stand idly by while the monster attempts to destroy them. So Buffy saves the day, again. And they eventually forgive her. Buffy has finally pushed through to the other side. So that by Seeing Red and Villians, Buffy is once again acting as the voice of reason and morality. She tells Spike she can't be with him, because she can't love him. Her super-ego has learned that love can't last without trust. A concept the id can't understand. And she tells Xander and Dawn that you can't play with the natural order of things. Vengeance solves nothing. Another concept the id does not understand. Unfortunately in Seeing Red - Buffy as the super-ego barely manages to kick the bestial id (Spike) off of her and in Villains - she is unable to save Warren from the id as represented by Willow.

You can't have an id and super-ego without the ego. Something needs to guide those impulses, needs to focus them and needs to defend you from them. Buffy symbolizes the super-ego in Btvs. The moral structure. Willow seems to symbolize the id unleashed in all it's fury. So who symbolizes the ego? Xander and to some extent Giles - who states that his magic will act as a sort of control - force Willow to feel her humanity or soul = superego.

So back to our question: What does it take to resolve the ego's conflict with the id and super-ego as represented in Spike and Willow? How do we deal with the id?

In Btvs - the following occurs: Willow is stopped by Xander who stands in front of a steeple with a chained demonic goddess. The Goddess represents the id and all its negative desires, the steeple the super-ego rising into the heavens, and the chains - the ego. Willow is attempting to free the chained goddess from her chains so she can free the earth from its' pain - Willow desires comfort, an end to pain. Xander gets in the way - calm, rational, Xander. He is not the super-ego, that's Buffy, the slayer. Nor is he the id, that's Spike and Willow. He is the ego - struggling to control the ids impulses, standing between it and the steeple or its desires. And he gives the id what it desires - love and comfort. "I love you, Willow," he repeats, until she falls sobbing into his arms where he comforts her.

What about Spike? Spike is stopped by Buffy who violently kicks him off her and tells him he can never have her as long as he is what he is - the bestial id without constraint. Spike gets the message. Not through Buffy - but through the realization that he hurt the very thing he desired. By hurting it - he loses all chance to obtain it. So off his ego sends him to reclaim the one thing that may change it - the soul of the man he once was, his super-ego. The ego once again saves the id. It sends him to the super-ego.

So balance appears to be the answer. If we can balance the battling forces within our psyche, we can handle the world around us. The id gives us drive, the super-ego the moral goal and the ego the ability to get there. By reconciling the monstrous id with the ego and super-ego, we control it. Repressing it as OZ and Willow attempted only causes it to gain in power. Unleashing it as Willow and Spike attempt only destroys what it wants. Using the ego and super-ego to accept the id yet keep it in check as Buffy eventually does - makes it possible for us to step out of the grave and into the sunshine.

Hope this made sense. Got ambitious again I think.
Feedback? Thought? Thanks,

: -) shadowkat

[> [> Simply splendid, 'kat. I just sent you feedback on your site ... -- Exegy, 12:27:32 06/14/02 Fri

... and I asked when the second part of the S/W journey would be posted. Guess you answered me! Yet another wonderful essay.

I'll try to formulate an adequate reply by tomorrow--don't know if I have time now. Keeping the thread alive until later!

[> [> Wow! I loved your essay;) -- Drizzt, 12:58:12 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Re: S/W Journey: Buffy & OZ - Taming & Reconciling the Monstrous Id Part II(long!spoilers to Grave) -- redcat, 16:49:38 06/14/02 Fri

This is an excellent and insightful essay, 'kat, among your best yet. You're pulling together
ideas that have been developing in your analyses for awhile now, and your articulation of them
here is clear and generally quite logically developed. Because I see your work on these
characters as both quite intuitively perceptive (I think I've used the word "brilliant" in the past)
as well as on-going, I do have a small question, though.

Early in pt. 1, you define the soul within the context of a psychological model and lay out for us
the central questions that guide your analysis:

"If we define the soul as the ego and super-ego converged -- the part of us that
tells us what we can''t have or shouldn''t have and what we ""should"", not
necessarily ""want"" to, strive for, what happens when the ego and/or super-ego
are removed or submerged beneath the id? If submerged, we have the wild
werewolf or beer bad cave Buffy. If removed? We have Spike sans chip. The
chip provides a pseudo-ego or leash for the id. What it can''t provide is the
morality or ""should strive for"" motivational structure of the super-ego, for that
you must have a soul."

For most of your essay, this schematic remains clear and works very well, IMHO, as a
descriptive and analytical tool. But towards the middle of pt. 2, I begin having a bit of difficulty
following the argument, because you begin talking about Spike's demon soul and his demon
ego in terms that don't seem quite comparable to your other uses of those terms, e.g.:

"But Spike really doesn''t have a super-ego or much of an ego for that matter.
The superego houses the psyche''s moral framework, which it obtains from
parental and societal role models. The demon soul appears to be mostly id with
just enough ego to ensure evil results. And the id doesn''t learn. The chip may
have added a little more ego to the mix, controlling the more violent impulses of
Spike''s demon psyche. But it''s hardly a super-ego -- the chip doesn''t provide
him with goals or reasons outside of the ones important to the id."

And then later, you claim that it is this demon ego with the little bit of conscience added by the
chip that sends Spike off to get his human soul back.

Well, OK, I guess I have two issues here. The first is that by the end of your essay, the human
soul has become primarily described as super-ego, and seems to have lost it's definition as
both that and ego. This may just be a matter of where the argument takes you in its own rush
to completion, but it might be worth your re-consideration.

The second issue has to do with the place of the "demon soul" in the foundational schematic. If
the human soul or even just it's constituent part, the super-ego, is the site of Joss's "moral
compass" in the direction of "doing good," then the demon soul should, by the metaphysical
rules of correspondence, have a moral compass pointing in the direction of "doing evil" - it's
own demon form of super-ego - just as it seemingly has a "demon ego" component and a
"demon id" component (although it also sounds like the demon and human id are pretty close
in your analysis, or perhaps even the same thing [?]). If demon souls do fit into the overall
structure in this way, their demon super-ego would simply be one that sees the creation of
chaos and disruptions of order as positive values on a scale where demons live at our
(humans') negative end. [Mind you, I think there is a great deal of evidence that this is not so.
Vamps apparently don't need to be taught to rampage by a parental or collective vamp
socialization process, lots of them they seem come by it "naturally." It's your schematic that I'm
trying to figure out.] Additionally, IF a single id is shared equally by human and vamp, and
Spike's chip is just a strong behavior modifier that acts like an ego but is not really one, then
why would Spike's demon ego want to get a soul rather than get the chip out so he could
simply take of Buffy what the id has wanted all along, pleasure and sex, followed (one would
assume) by food if not shelter?

Somehow, I think I must be missing a connection somewhere. Am I mis-reading and not
following your argument carefully enough? Can you help lift the fog for me? What is this
demon soul and where does it fit in your analysis?

THANKS, 'kat. I think your work here is really good and worth my trying to really understand it.
I'm not being picky or critical, I'm just hoping to get a clearer sense of how your analysis works.

[> [> [> Okay have some answers now re: demon souls (long!) -- shadowkat, 20:01:29 06/14/02 Fri

Hi redcat - thanks for this and for pin-pointing the area of the essay that I 'm struggling with. No, you weren't being picky at all. I'll try to address what got muddled and maybe together we can clarify it. Dang ME and their ambiguous writing.

Before I do so - the muddle/fog is not completely ME's fault, it's partly the fault of Freudian theory. Before writing this - I read a paper by Dr. Charles Brenner called "Beyond the Id and the Ego" and in that article Brenner mentioned how these definitions often overlap and aren't always accurate in psychoanalytic theory, I tend to agree - ran into the same conflicts in my essay. Frustrated - I discussed this with a friend who has a psychology background and we determined the following.

1. Pure id without ego = the animal or reptile, no thought, nothing but pure unbridled instinct. OZ in his werewolf form or what Xander and the students in the Pack would have become if the hyenas remained inside them. The primal.

2. Pure Ego would probably be the buffybot

3. Super-ego and ego would be Lt. Data on the Starship Enterprise or Mr. Spock. Actually Vulcans are an excellent example of the id being entirely suppressed.

So I queried what is ego plus id? Well that would probably be the vampire. Because the ego protects the id from hurting itself and directs it towards it's goal.

So what would a pure super-ego be? Well according to Freud it's the moral compass, the moral framework created by our parents and society. Freud was a bit obsessed with parential influences - believing these could lead to negative impulses housed in the id and regulated by the ego. Freud as someone else pointed out on the B C & S board was heavily influenced by Victorian morality, which considered sex a dark impulse. Wishing to avoid these traps, I thought okay...what is ME working towards here. Because I really hate the whole Oedipal thing and sex as a dark impulse.

Well Joss Whedon defines a soul differently than we do. We define it as the essence of our personality, our self. Whedon defines it almost in the same terms as Freud defines the super-ego, which leads me to believe Joss took Psychology in college or someone on his staff did (maybe Marti??) and had the evil Prof Walsh as a teacher. Examples: In the Pack, which I just rewatched on FX - Giles explains that the primals worshipped the hyena or animal shadow energy as something better than a soul. They considered the soul unholy. They preferred the primal. Actually - this is true in some primitive tribal cultures, who prefer our animal nature to the more evolved one or super-ego. (They see animals as being a purer form of being). Giles goes on to define this energy as primal or animalistic, seeking only it's own pleasure - reminds me of the Freudian definition of the "id". Then in Angel - he defines the vampire as a vicious animal similar to the demonic possession of the hyenas. Later in Season 4 when Buffy begins to lose her soul to her roommate, her negative impulses get unleashed, she wants what is hers, doesn't want to share.

So if this is what ME means by id and soul. And how they are separate. What about ego? According to Freud the ego is the motor function, the way we deal with the negative impulses of the id, how we protect ourselves from them. I'd say intelligence is probably the ego. Or logic.

How does this answer your questions regarding Spike?

Well I made the mistake of mentioning a demon soul because I'm not really sure they are meant to have one and if they do - my guess is it's just a combo of ego and id. But all demons are not created equal. Some may have all three, perhaps in the manner you suggest. The demon super-ego cares about the continuation of chaos or evil - examples would be Anyanka, D'Hoffryn, Glory - although I still think Glory is a metaphor for an unfettered id with Ben as her ego caging her - what does she say to Ben? When you become immortal, guilt, shame, all those negative feelings melt away like ice cream. You can do whatever you want and not care. Now this sounds like the id talking to the ego. But I could be misreading the metaphor. Adam seemed to be super-ego and ego with no id. He understood primal desires but seemed to be above them, more interested in tthe big picture. While Spike just cared about a)getting the chip out or b) surviving - id/ego responses to the situation. So Adam would be an example of a bad super-ego. Vampires appear to be more primal in nature, just a step above werewolves - going for their pleasures over the big picture in most cases. (Again Spike in Becoming, Lover's Walk, School Hard, Primeval) In fact very few of them seem to get the big picture. (Rise out of the grave, go get something to eat.) There are a few that do - which makes me wonder if they could develop a super-ego over time? An evil super-ego like the Master and Angelus seemed to?? (Remember - Spike is only 128 years old. Angelus was at least 243 and The Master approximately 800. And the Buffyverse mythos suggests that the older vamps lose their human visages�change as time goes on?) So my guess, originally they possess neither a demon soul nor a human one. That said - what would motivate a demon to seek any soul? Why bother? All it would do is place greater pressure on the id?

Well - there is the argument that Spike didn't really go after a soul and the lurker demon tricked him, but I think JE's interview pretty much nixed that argument, even though under the Freudian super-ego, ego, id theory that "argument" appears to make the most logical sense. So how do we reconcile it?

I can think of two theories.

1. That there's a little super-ego left inside Spike after all, just a tiny amount, way deep inside in those old memory banks, retained after the vamping and if it weren't for the chip suppressing some of his id's negative impulses - it would probably never see the light of day. There may be a little inside all vamps - remember they are human's infected. So it would make sense that a sliver of that old soul got left behind. We only have Angel's word that the entire soul is gone. Maybe - they are like the werewolves in that their super-ego, that tiny bit that is still left over was submerged. It's not enough to do anything of course...but it might be enough to push him to go after rest - if his id and ego are convinced it's the only way they can get what they want. Remember Spike asks Clem, why do I feel this way? What has she done to me? It's all jimny cricket. He's feeling guilt and shame. Emotions that vampires can't feel. Without a soul or super-ego - They don't have the capacity for these emotions. They don't know what guilt is, they have no knowledge of it. So how is he feeling it? Has the chip become something more than just an ego for Spike? The writing is contradictory on this one. But so is Freud. Which leads me to theory number 2.

2. The super-ego and ego overlap a bit. The ego has elements of the super-ego in its basic structure - to hold back and protect the id. The problem with the id - is we tend to separate it from the other two, we tend to separate it from ourselves - as if it's not part of us, when it actually is very vital to our make up. We call it evil - the beast. But the id is our drive, our desires, what makes us get up in the morning & enjoy life. Go eat breakfast. Wander through the garden. Or write essays to get cool feedback. I think ME has dealt with these concepts in an interesting manner - I think they've separated the id and overlapped the ego and super-ego, so that while separate concepts, they contain elements of each other, hence Professor Walsh's question about how the id and ego are in conflict. Beings who have souls - have super-ego/ego and id. The super-ego in the souled being usually is dominant. It aids the ego in restraining negative impulses in the id and rewarding positive ones. Not always but in most cases. Beings without a soul only have id and ego or sometimes just id - the mindless animal - Farayle demon? The id is dominant in these creatures, with the ego giving basic verbal and motor functions. Since super-ego and ego overlap, a pre-dominant ego would change a demon from a being that just goes after what it desires to actually trying for something greater, something beyond just the pleasure principal. In most demons - a predominant ego causes them to go after greater evil. Remember the ego can hold back negative impulses - negative impulses in a demon may be different than a human, they may be considered positive impulses from the demonic id's pov. (ie. The demon ego holds back what humans would consider positive impulses while rewarding negative ones.) So what happens if a neural behavior modifier is implanted in a demon, altering the demon's interpretation of the id's impulses to fit the human's interpretation from positive to negative? Ie. If I bite people - I will experience intense pain when before I experienced intense pleasure. (What would you do if something you used to enjoy made you violently ill?) And what if this newly formed ego begins to gain power over the demon's id, begins to be the filter the id sees through to reach its desires? The ego can apparently influence what the id wants. It has to, to protect itself from pain. To survive. So what happens if the ego has been altered by science to seek positive/good outcomes? Instead of wanting to kill the slayer the ego now wants to love her, to protect her? And what happens if the id breaks free of the ego's influence, albeit briefly, causing intense conflict? (The id wants to possess the slayer - the ego wants to protect her from harm, to see her happy.) Who'd win? The ego has been bolstered by a chip, which rewired it to help the slayer and not hurt living things. The id still wants to hurt living things - but the re-wired ego has, up until the attempted rape scene, been keeping it back. The ego is also the source of the demon's intelligence. The attempted rape scene threw the ego and id into conflict. To ultimately win this conflict - the ego has to get some help. A super-ego? But the id is resisting - it wants to win, it wants the chip removed. So the ego coaxes it. Ascribes blame to other parties. (It's the chip's fault not mine.) Does what egos do best, protect the id. (Hence all the bravado in the cave scenes. That's the ego lying to the id.) So we have the trials, which exhaust the id allowing the ego to finally get what it wants.

Sorry, so longwinded. Hope it made sense. Thoughts?

Thanks again for making me think through it! did a wonderful
job of focusing my mind on stuff outside of horrible
job hunts and work...augh. ;-)

shadowkat

[> [> [> [> BRILLIANT! -- redcat, 20:56:41 06/14/02 Fri

You've made the demon id-ego/chip connections absolutely clear to me now! WOW. I think I actually heard a "click" when I read the last paragraph above. Spike went through a "learning curve" to figure out how to have pleasure in life with the chip is his head, leading to critical changes in his behaviors and attitudes. The demon id never learns, but the demon ego does, in this case lessons moderated by the chip's constant presence. Very clear and good insights and explanation for this part of it, 'kat.

But I don't think your idea that some vamps or all vamps retain a bit of human super-ego, itching to get out, works, at least for me. It throws too much of the rest of the basic Buffyverse mythology into question and raises the whole "if every vamp is potentially redeemable, then B is a mass murderer" problem..... and not even Freud would want to go there.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: BRILLIANT! -- shadowkat, 05:34:15 06/15/02 Sat

First - thanks! I agree...I think the second theory works
better too.

"But I don't think your idea that some vamps or all vamps retain a bit of human super-ego, itching to get out, works, at least for me. It throws too much of the rest of the basic Buffyverse mythology into question and raises the whole "if every vamp is potentially redeemable, then B is a mass murderer" problem..... and not even Freud would want to go there."

Agree. I think that's part of the reason they had to send Spike after a soul, otherwise we start going into the every vamp is potentially redeemable area which causes all sorts of issues to arise that I'm not sure Whedon and Company wanted to get mired in. They are sort of exploring these issues on Angel with Gunn and his gange and Holtz. But exploring them on Buffy would invalidate their whole thesis of how demons are metaphors for our internal ones which we must slay. So I think theory two about the demon ego learning how to please the id works better.

Hmmm - must revise essay to show that, but need to check Rufus's views first. Rufus has the Buffyverse mythos and ME's intent down. So if I'm off she'll catch it.

Thanks again for getting me to think it through. ;- )

[> [> I'm off to read.......I'll answer later -- Rufus, 18:40:12 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> perfect sense, life is a struggle toward balance -- shygirl, 06:12:56 06/15/02 Sat

yes and you make a point about William's soul that I can hardly wait to see how the writer's deal with... William is gonna be horrified by Spike. Because as the super-ego is intergrated into the id and ego structure, it's gonna have to deal with a very bloody past and the question is... can the super-ego stay sane in the process and not try to die as penance.

[> So, 'kat, for Season 7.... -- cjl, 15:07:55 06/14/02 Fri

Do you think Spike and Willow will commiserate in their mutual struggle to re-establish their superegos, while Xander and Buffy--our resident voices of reason--finally struggle with their unleashed ids?

[> [> Re: So, 'kat, for Season 7.... -- shadowkat, 16:18:48 06/14/02 Fri

Xander already unleashed his id in the PAck and the Zeppo
and let's see Lover's Walk...so don't see a reoccurence.
Actually I'm at a loss where they can take this character.

Buffy merged all three in the end.

The only two who seem in need of help are Willow and Spike
who I think I'm beginning to get burnt out on. Sort of like your obsession with Dawn I think. ;-)

[> [> [> Xander has to work his way out of the basement ... (S6 Spoilers) -- Exegy, 15:02:32 06/15/02 Sat

He must finally confront his parents' history in the upper levels of his mind (having the heart to walk up those stairs, to bring his buried issues to the surface). He must develop past his unacknowledged fixation (on inheriting the dysfunction of his parents); he must work toward reconciliation with Anya (his demon).

While Xander has projected an aura of security (from The Replacement to HB), he really has kept his problems locked away to gnaw at him. They're always at the back of his mind. So while Suave!Xander seems to be in control, CaptainFear!Xander actually runs the house (as Anya notes in Flooded and Entropy). Hence the buried desire to have everything turn out alright (the OMWF wish). The ominous thunder at the beginning of HB. Xander plays the part of Comfortador (OAFA, AYW), but he's lost the strength of his heart. He lets his fear overwhelm him (actually living the reality of a hellish marriage with Anya). He becomes a wreck of a man, only regaining his heart at the end of Grave.

Now that he's found his heart, he must deal with all his unearthed problems. I can imagine many delicious possibilities....

[> Locking Away the Demon (Part 1 of 2) -- Exegy, 17:55:00 06/14/02 Fri

We suppress that which we fear about ourselves. We stuff all our inner darkness into a tiny compartment, and there we lock it away. We bury it below the surface ... in the dark regions of the mind. The ego represses the id, and everything on the surface is sunny.

And so everything seems with Oz. The laconic musician appears to have his demonic aspect under control. He confines himself to a cage when his monstrous self dominates. For three nights he gives in to his wild tendencies; the rest of the month he is the essence of cool. But he has given himself a false sense of security. The ego hasn't balanced the id and the super-ego here. It has merely provided him with a coping mechanism, an easy way to repress his violent emotions. Sooner or later these emotions will erupt, relegated to the cage no longer. And then the chaos will overwhelm him.

Oz cannot admit this possibility. He huddles, confined to the bathtub in Fear Itself, telling himself again and again, "You're not going to change. You're not going to change." Maybe if he repeats this mantra enough he won't lose control--but his words are weak, whimpers against the encroaching darkness. He's relied upon an inadequate coping mechanism for too long; now his cage is about to break.

His self-imposed restraints crumble in Wild at Heart. He runs free beneath the moon, his negative aspect brought to the surface at last. He consorts with a female werewolf; he experiences a type of freedom he only sensed as a human. His raging hunger is fulfilled.

Then comes the light of day, and Oz tells himself that this cannot happen again. It will not happen again. He will reconcile the impulses of the id to the impositions of the super-ego. He will cage his dark urges. It'll be like nothing untoward ever happened. Because he can't let anyone find out that he lost control ... then he would have to admit his lapse to himself. He'd have to give reality to all his worst fears. He can't do that ... he can't upset his balance like that.

But the balance is not there. It never was. Security is an illusion the ego insists upon maintaining. When Oz stuffs Veruca into the cage with him, he's maintaining once more the illusion of control--but we see that the control evaporates almost immediately. Oz clasps hands with Veruca before he has even changed into the wolf; he embraces the reckless freedom she provides. The cage does not keep them safe from each other. Unbalanced, driven by the id, they collide together. Chaos reigns.

Willow descends into her lover's underground abode, and she sees into the depths of his mind. She sees the chaos lurking there. And she finally realizes what the werewolf nature signifies: inconstancy. The 'wolf is governed by the cycle of the moon, with the moon as the symbol of change. Exactly what Oz denies--he cannot change into a monster. But he does, and he hurts Willow. It was inevitable.

Oz leaves, knowing that he can only hurt Willow again if he stays. He can't deny his darkness any longer. He seeks to incorporate it into his being ... but he still cannot achieve balance. The new moon he follows may give him more leeway than the old moon ... but the wolf still emerges. The wolf that all of us have inside to some degree, the id that can never be entirely suppressed or controlled. The id that must be brought to the surface and dealt with ... not relegated to the lower levels of the mind. Not locked in the basement.

The basement is where the darkness reigns supreme. We see Buffy fall into the dark basement in Fear Itself, breaking the lock that has kept her safe from all her worst fears. A shade whispers, "They all run away from you. They always will. Open your heart to someone...." This is Buffy's greatest fear: desertion. She can't bear to be left alone to suffer destruction and death. Better to close herself off, to lock her emotions away. Better to bury herself.

So Buffy shoves all her worries into the basement, leaving the higher levels of the super-ego clean, the house of the ego intact. But the darkness worries at her foundations, screaming to be let out. She releases herself with Spike, giving vent to all her repressed emotions. Letting loose with the violence. Both Buffy and Spike fall into the lower levels of the house, driven by the id as Oz and Veruca were driven. The walls of the self collapse atop them; the superstructure comes crashing down.

So Buffy's sense of self disintegrates along with her grip on higher morality. She loses control, and she sees both her abuse of Spike and her "killing" of Katrina (inextricably tangled in her mind) as manifestations of this unacceptable loss of control. Her loss of self. How can this "wrong" Buffy be the Buffy of old? The same righteous girl? This isn't who she is!

Buffy will never rediscover who she is until she emerges from the basement, bringing her problems to the surface. She cannot lock the demon away.

Part II follows....

[> [> Re: Locking Away the Demon (Part 2 of 2) -- Exegy, 19:18:08 06/14/02 Fri

Buffy remains fixated to her childhood. She cannot let herself grow out of her dependency on the image of the mother. She cannot admit to herself that the old mother is dead. She is the mother now, and Dawn is her responsibility. Buffy resists this change; she longs to return to the womb. Her desire is wedded to her fear, and both are housed in the lower levels of her mind. In the basement, where she stuffs all her problems. Down where she refuses to grow up.

If Buffy's situation were not made literal enough, then we have the illustration provided by the Troika. Here are three geeks who have refused to grow up. They remain boys stuck in the basement, living in a land of dreams. They escape from painful reality by retreating into their fantasy world. Their illusions seem innocent enough at first, but we soon see that illusions can be very damaging. For instance, the nerds retreat so far into fantasy that they do not even recognize an actual rape as it is about to take place. A girl dies as a result of their "live action roleplaying."

Unable to accept the RL consequences of what they have done, they push the responsibility onto Buffy. They shift the blame to her, and two credit themselves on a good job. Jonathan senses the wrongness of these actions, but he literally cannot escape the basement now. Warren and Andrew keep him down, effectively locking their collective conscience away. Effectively hindering any further development that could take place among them. For Jonathan says, "Stuck in this basement for weeks! I mean, we rented the whole house, can't we at least sleep upstairs?" (NA). The nerds have limited themselves to the realm of the id; they refuse to explore the upper reaches. It's dangerous up there. The Slayer, symbolic of their super-ego ... she might impose herself upon them. This would be unacceptable. Better to stay a child than to face the consequences as an adult. To admit to the wrongness of what they've done.

It's easier to remain a child, exempt from responsibility. Buffy wants to return to that life; she fears the pain associated with growing up. She resists change. She doesn't want to see that her house has changed in After Life. She doesn't want to see Joyce's presence removed. But the dead mother only exists in photographs now. Buffy only has the memory of Joyce to sustain her, and so she fixates upon this memory as the way out.

Normal Again brilliantly captures the psychological fixation Buffy has experienced all season. The viewer finally connects to her sense of being ripped from heaven; it's the sense of being ripped from her childhood, thrust into an adulthood she is not ready for. Of course heaven seems like more than 147 days to her; it is all the years of relative bliss she spent with her mother, connected still to the womb. That time was heaven. This time is hell. Buffy retreats from the pain, and she loses her sense of self. From NA:

BUFFY: I feel so lost.
WILLOW: I know. You're confused. It's, it's that crazy juice inside you.
BUFFY: It's been more than that. Even before the demon ... I've been so detached.
WILLOW: We've ... all been kind of slumming.
BUFFY: Every time I try to ... snap out of it. Figure out why I'm like that.

Buffy has detached herself from the world. A part of her still exists in the universe where her mother lives ... where her parents are together, there is no sister to take care of, and she never becomes the Slayer. Buffy wants to return to the time when everything was so stable. She wants to be "normal again." She cannot accept the horror her life has become. She'd rather be crazy.

The demon in the basement, the source of Buffy's delusions, represents her fear of adulthood and her desire for childhood. These twin drives of the id become fatal impulses when locked away ... as Buffy's friends soon discover.

Buffy feels that her current existence, the afterlife of the child, cannot be real. The child must still be alive somewhere, locked away in an institution, begging to be let out. Begging to be restored to the health of a former time. Because what Buffy feels now ... cannot be healthy. She cannot be the real person. She can't have a vampire as a lover; she can't have a Key as a sister. Her friends can't be drifting apart. This is not real. Her friends must be symptoms of her illness, traps for her mind. Supports for her primary delusion. The things keeping her unhappy.

These connections to her world must be severed. She must drift away, free once again to return to the womb. To be insulated in the comforting institution, completely dependent on others, secure in the knowledge that everyone real is alright. Any pain is just an illusion of the world she left behind, a remnant of her fantasy. Not real.

Just another problem to lock away.

Buffy threatens to destroy the reality of her life as a Slayer. She threatens to sacrifice her friends to the demon of the id, the mute demon that expresses all her simple desires. This demon has been in the basement a long time now; it really is the big bad of the season, the demon that convinces Buffy to bring everyone down into the basement with her ... Willow first. Destroying her friends is the only way she can return to that time when she was at peace, that time when everything seemed right.

But Buffy cannot destroy her friends. She's stuck between two worlds, each bearing equal reality for her. If she accepts one, then she irrevocably denies the other. She cannot decide; she settles into inertia, just as she has all this season, letting the demon decide for her. She cowers beneath the stairs, at her lowest level. She closes her eyes to the desperate struggles of her friends. They CANNOT be real!!

Buffy bangs her head against the institution wall. She now seeks escape from the womb, the place of her confinement. She desperately wants some sort of closure.

Oddly enough, the words of Joyce encourage Buffy to say good-bye to her mother. To finally find the strength to give up on the dream of childhood. To kill the demon that has plagued her all season. Sticking her hand into its heart, assimilating its dark powers into herself.

And then leaving the basement, crawling out of the grave. Accepting her calling as an adult. Choosing to deal with her problems on the surface, to slay those demons that unearth themselves every night. To be a Slayer.

[> [> [> Excellent post! Few responses... -- shadowkat, 20:33:49 06/14/02 Fri

I love the way you write...beautiful.

Okay...now a few questions. Is the demon locked in the basement - Buffy's adulthood? The id? Or her childhood?
I'm thinking it's the id's fear of adulthood. As children we are afraid of what is in the basement or the closet or under the bed, while adults have no problem entering it.

As we grow up, we learn the values, morals and manners that make it possible for us to survive in the adult world. We learn that in order to get food - we must do that horrid job, not steal from the bank. Stealing = jail and pain.
Or our parents tell us that it is wrong. Creating a moral framework for us to function within. Good thing too, because if we all tried to steal - there'd be mass confusion, chaos and violence.

Good comparison to the Troika. The Troika are living in a fantasy world. Warren believes he can avoid the rules of adulthood. He fears it. It makes him feel weak and incompetent. And Warren hates to feel like that. He's super-bright - so he should be rewarded for it right? Unfortunately it takes more than intelligence to succeed in life, it takes a little street smarts and some moral fiber.
(Yeah - I know Warren does some horribly idiotic things - but for analysis purposes - let's assume he's intelligent.)
Buffy and KAtrina and Willow threaten him. They are women who challenge him. At first he likes this - he becomes attracted and believes himself in love with Katrina because she is bright and challenges him - until she rejects him.
And she rejects him because he built a robot - something Warren is somewhat proud of. "Not just a toy - a girlfriend." The women see this as horrendous. Xander and
Spike see it as cool. Willow takes his second creation the Buffbot and rewires it. She figures out his invisible ray and is able to thwart his plans to kill Buffy with it. And then the final charge - she outdoes him in the power department and rapes him with a bullet. She gets the respect of the demon community - when he's been working so hard for it and fails. Poor Warren - he reminds me of the boys in school who tormented those who were weaker than them to make themselves feel strong. Warren can't deal with the rejection. So has he locked his id away in a basement
because of it? Does staying downstairs make him feel safe?
Or has he unleashed his id and locked his morals in the basement instead? Dang world - I'm mad as hell and I'm just not going to take it any more! I'm going to enjoy myself no matter what the cost.

Buffy - I agree she has locked herself in childhood, slowly breaking free. Submerged. When we are depressed we want to do this. We want to crawl under the covers or back into the womb. I just finished a fantastic post by Rahael on this theme in which she stated something to the effect that you don't want to feel, you put on a mask and pull back from the world. And what caused the depression was Joyce's death, Buffy's was metaphorically submerging herself in depression, Bargaining through Grave was her recovery from it. I agree. I think we've watched Buffy slowly move out of her basement of depression this year. And in doing so, we've seen her deal with the id, that primal energy raging inside her. She's locked it along with her super-ego in that basement. And it's not until Normal Agai, we see the super-ego emerge. In Grave the id remerges as well, when she let's herself feel, let's herself want.

Curious to see your thoughts on Spike...you left him out of your post. You also skimmed over Willow. Possibly because I've done them to death? ; -)

Just a few thoughts...thanks again for the great response.

[> [> [> [> On Buffy, Spike, and Willow ... (S6 Spoilers) -- Exegy, 16:13:09 06/15/02 Sat

You have it right--the demon in Buffy's basement represents the twin impulses of the id: desire and fear. She desires to return to her childhood, and she fears to embark on adulthood. So she remains in the basement, not growing up. Literally not going up. Just as the Nerds of Doom remain in the basement, refusing to develop into men. They stay boys with toys ... they retreat into their fantasy world and avoid the responsibilities of reality. They desire the illusion of power their insulated fantasy provides; they fear the rejection of the outside world. They've run away from this rejection, turning to each other for support and acceptance. They're all stuck in the basement together, and when one threatens to leave ... that is not acceptable. If Jonathan leaves, then the others must admit their own stulted growth. It's safer to lock themselves in the basement. It's safer to lock their conscience away.

On Spike--well, he obviously dwells on the lower levels. His crypt is located belowground; he's made his dwelling-place the id. He's driven by passion; he risks his very sense of self for the end of physical union. And so we have the metaphor of the collapsed house--both Buffy and Spike lose themselves to their passion, leaving the walls of the self to come tumbling down. And in the depths, ugly seeds begin to germinate ... the products of their union.

Buffy recognizes the brewing darkness, and she breaks the union. She rushes out into the sunlight, leaving Spike alone in the wreckage of their affair. Alone in the wreckage of himself.

Spike's damaged, broken. He's been blown apart on the inside. Unfortunately, Spike doesn't acknowledge his demolished state. He accepts the bruises of the relationship (he sleeps beside the seeds of the unhealthy union, at home with the darkness, risking his own destruction every moment). He barely comments upon the beating Buffy gives him in DT, although the marks of her treatment are prominent upon his face. He accepts everything she throws at him, telling her, "Put it all on me." Buffy accepts his offer again and again, unleashing all her dark energies on Spike. Then, purged herself, she leaves him to wallow in their combined misery. She makes her way out of the basement alone.

When Spike attempts to follow her upward, we get the horribly wrecked scenario of SR. Spike has been beaten down; he has nothing to offer Buffy but a hollow incarnation of their former twisted relationship. He's broken, running on permanent repeat. He cannot let go of his need to possess her; he cannot see any other end outside of the physical union. He's locked still in the smashed basement, a demon with a limited worldview. The ego can no longer operate with this worldview, and so Spike seeks restoration. He wants to be whole again, even if being whole means accepting some of the weakness he has denied as a vampire.

Spike travels to Africa; he travels into his "heart of darkness" in order to be transformed. He enters the cave; he wanders into his black depths. On the walls are scenes of the most gruesome torture ... scenes that Spike does not even wish to consider. He's properly horrified. But he must battle the dark in order to be transfigured. He must suffer the most painful transformation in order to be "deserving" of Buffy. It cannot be any other way. And so a part of him dies in that cave, only to be reborn anew.

Maybe Spike can now emerge from his own basement, stronger for the experience.

On Willow--we see that she's the first to be dragged into the basement by Buffy. She's the one who bears the most damage from the events of this season, the one who's suffered the most from raising Buffy. How far she's fallen.

She falls because she loses her super-ego and her ego in one magic instant. Tara dies. The source of her morality and her sense of self has been destroyed. And note the location of Tara's destruction ... the upper room of the house Willow has appropriated as her own. The level of the super-ego.

Because it's always Tara that pulls Willow up. In Normal Again, it's Tara that arrives to save the day. Except Tara doesn't save the day. She's pulled down, incapacitated. Willow cannot look to her lover to pull her out of the darkness. She cannot always look for the "Tinkerbell" light to lead her out of the dark forest. This is a child's expectation, and such expectations are invariably shattered.

As Willow's dreams are shattered in SR. She's ripped out of the comforting womb provided by Tara, the surrogate mother. The illusion of safety vanishes. And Willow falls right back into her dark wood. She indulges all her negative impulses ... flaying Warren and bloodying up the trees of her own psyche. What a tangled undergrowth!

Willow's life has been shattered. But she doesn't succeed in her total destruction. The unconditional love of a friend halts her. She finally gives in to her grief.

As I finally give in to my numb hands. I'll try to check in tomorrow, but no promises!

Psst--thank you for answering my feedback! And you wrote a wonderful response to redcat. Much agreement here!

Exegy

[> [> [> [> [> KABOOM!! Fabulous posts, Exegy and shadowkat, truly wonderful work here! -- redcat, 16:23:13 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Ooooh I like what you wrote on Willow and Spike -- shadowkat, 18:55:06 06/15/02 Sat

"On Spike--well, he obviously dwells on the lower levels. His crypt is located belowground; he's made his dwelling-place the id. He's driven by passion; he risks his very sense of self for the end of physical union. And so we have the metaphor of the collapsed house--both Buffy and Spike lose themselves to their passion, leaving the walls of the self to come tumbling down. And in the depths, ugly seeds begin to germinate ... the products of their union."

You used that wonderful demon egg metaphor again. The ugly
seeds of their union which hatch into fierce crab-like monsters that attack Riley and Buffy needs to throw a grenade to destroy - literally destroying the bottom of Spike' crypt - the place of their union. When she comes back to tell him it's over - it's almost an afterthought and a kindness on her part. She truly ended it with the grenade. If she hadn't those eggs would have eaten up everything in sight, just as she and Spike were devoring each other in their mindless passion.

But she hasn't destroyed them entirely. The seeds of their union live on in her denial and lies. It's not until Entropy and Seeing Red that they are truly destroyed. Like a vampire turns to dust in the sunlight, so do the seeds when she exposes them to her friends and family.

Spike - the id is trapped in the blaze. You're absolutely correct when you state he can only offer Buffy a "hollow incarnation of their former twisted relationship". Without the super-ego or soul, he has nothing else. Knows nothing else. It's tragic, because she saw potential there, still does - it's why she takes her sister to his place in the next episode. But Buffy lacks imagination. She can't concieve what he has come up with. Makes sense - sort of distracted at the moment - with Willow, Warren, being shot... and she has been awfully self-involved this year.
But it's not just tragic, it's also touching - love has sent the demon ego in search of a soul. Sometimes it takes blowing up something to have renewal, sometimes it is darkest before the Dawn.

"Because it's always Tara that pulls Willow up. In Normal Again, it's Tara that arrives to save the day. Except Tara doesn't save the day. She's pulled down, incapacitated. Willow cannot look to her lover to pull her out of the darkness. She cannot always look for the "Tinkerbell" light to lead her out of the dark forest. This is a child's expectation, and such expectations are invariably shattered."

True - Willow like Spike has been depending on someone else to lift them up. Typical id. The child if you prefer. Buffy is like this as well - she wanted Giles to stay. She wants to go back to the friendly world of her friends and high school. She wishes that she didn't have to take care of Dawn. With Spike she can escape. In a way, Buffy and Spike are using each other. Just as Willow is using Tara. And in SR and later Villains both illusions are finally shattered.

Because the time comes in which we have to go it alone, get out on our own. The unconditional love of a friend has helped Willow for now. But the true test comes - when Willow is able to go it alone. Able to come to terms with what she did and almost did...come to terms with who she is. And has become. To do that she has to leave Xander and Buffy behind - her next journey is a solitary one. They can help - but she has to do the hard work on her own.
Spike has already started on this path - actually he appears to be ahead of her in a sense - he went on his own without anyone telling him to - to get a soul, to find himself and grow up.

Now I'm curious to see more on Xander...sort of struggling with the boy. I agree - I think he climbed out of that basement by standing up to Willow. It's is difficult to stand up to our enemies, but it is even harder to stand up to a friend. What he did with Willow was the most courageous thing he has ever done. I think he climbed out of that basement, finally. Caught up with his friends. So it's fitting that final scene happened outside on a cliff.

But where does this take him? It feels like this part of his journey is over. What next? Does he help heal Willow?
Or does he have to find a way to break free of her and Buffy and go down his own path? And if Spike comes back ensouled - will Xander's challenge be finding a way to handle Spike? To reconcile himself with the grey area in the way he was never quite able to do with Angel? Can Xander learn grey now that he has had to deal with Willow
going dark? Or Anya becoming a helpful Vengeance demon?
Have we seen Xander begin to grow beyond being just a bottom feeding bigoted Harris - Xander's greatest nightmare?
Can Xander get past the Riley hero-worship and see that someone like himself, an ordinary bloke can be a hero. That he doesn't have to be Riley or Buffy to be a hero in his own right? Not sure. He's been so much in the background the last two years...

Great followup post btw! Loved it!

And entirely agree!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks so much, rc and 'kat!! On Xander ... (S6 Spoilers) -- Exegy, 07:49:42 06/16/02 Sun

*Dancing for joy because my post got a KABOOOM!*

Nice additional comments, shadowkat. I think Xander still has a way to go ... finding his heart with Willow represents perhaps the first step on the journey up those stairs to confront his parents. Because in Restless, we see him step out of the basement only to be returned there again and again, caught in the lower levels of his mind. These past two seasons, he's only had the illusion of "grown-up" control, an illusion that is destroyed in HB. CaptainFear!Xander, the perpetual screw-up, comes to the fore. Xander has lost his heart, that inner strength which makes him different from his parents. He now believes himself no better than them, just another Harris screw-up. He gives such weight to his fears that they become reality (Xander actually experiencing the reality of a horribly dysfunctional marriage with Anya, Xander actually becoming the image of his father).

Xander's let his father tear the heart out of his chest (his fear made literal in Restless). He cannot be there for Anya on her big day. He'll be fertilizer for the daisies before that happens. Because a heartless Xander cannot go through with a marriage. He can barely go though with an engagement. He hems and haws, delaying the engagement announcement unitl everything is alright in Sunnydale. Well, nothing will ever be completely alright in Sunnydale. There is always that buried darkness to bring to the surface, that fear to be exposed to the light. Xander's wish in OMWF reveals the terror that lies beneath his confident exterior ... the terror that is not faced down at the end of the day. Oh no, it'll see him (and the rest of the Scoobs) in hell before this season is over. All those buried fears will come rushing out....

Xander brings his weakness with him in his confrontation with Willow. He doesn't deny it. He accepts it, he accepts her ... and he finds his heart. He forges strength from his weakness (as in The Zeppo). This carpenter doesn't need superpowers to be strong. He just needs to be his own "normal guy" self, secure as a Comfortador. Secure with his heart.

Now Xander has that which he's lacked for so long. He now has the strength to walk up those stairs, the way he's denied. He can bring his problems with his parents to the upper levels of his mind, facing them on the surface. Facing them with Anya, the one he's wronged ... and been wronged by. Dealing with his "inherited" bigotry, as well. Seeing the grey in his black and white world. And accepting it.

[> Just a comment or two.. -- Rufus, 03:15:04 06/15/02 Sat

I've heard the Id, Ego, Superego mentioned before, it got it's main mention in season four with Maggie Walsh. Great teacher, evil, bad lady. I see the loss of the soul through the infection of the demons soul, an event that causes a schism of self, the person who once was is there, but his/her ability to move past the impulse of the demon driven Id almost non-existant. Strange that the vampire can fall in love at all, but that does prove that depending on the emotional development of the host, the vampire can turn out to be more complex than first considered. Oz is a victim also of an infection, but with his basic emotional working still there most of the month, he is able to see past the bullsh*t that Veruca spouts. Veruca was a monster in both forms human and wolf, she had rationalized her killing by deluding herself that she was better than a typical mortal, much like the crap Spike spouted when trying to impress Buffy in FFL. Both characters had been able to kill without remourse, one even had a soul. The difference between wolf and vampire is that the wolf is basically human who has a "hairy time of the month", oh, and can kill people cause they forget they are a person inside. With Spike he is a demon trying to forget what he was as a man. Spike had to lose that chip of pride on his shoulder that kept driving him to prove himself worthy of adulation. Through his experiences with Buffy and the rest of the gang Spike eventually discovered that yes, he is a monster that they make movies about, and there was something he could do about it, and the price was giving up the facade of the Big Bad, to get to be someone who Buffy deserved.

Then there is the depression aspect of this season, depression is the word that describes a group of symptoms of a person who is in despair......in Buffy her depression was finding that she no longer felt part of the world she was to protect. Depression can make one want to stand still or run and hide from pain, for Buffy it ultimately drove her to do something (not always the best thing) to change how she felt about her state of being. Season six was a series of trials that got all the characters from one point in their lives to another by the end, in a sense all reborn into adulthood. In The Gift, Buffy died to save the world, this year in Two to Go and Grave, Buffy went through a final trial that led her to crawl out of her grave, for real this time.

Great essay loved it.

[> [> Re: Just a comment or two.. -- aliera, 14:41:43 06/15/02 Sat

"Depression can make one want to stand still or run and hide from pain, for Buffy it ultimately drove her to do something (not always the best thing) to change how she felt about her state of being."

I'm not sure she was actually seeking real "change" at any point until perhaps Grave? And even though each of the main characters had their moments of realization that is only the first step, for Buffy and Willow, again the first step.

"In The Gift, Buffy died to save the world, this year in Two to Go and Grave, Buffy went through a final trial that led her to crawl out of her grave, for real this time."

Progress can be about false starts and about getting back up and continued to try to move forward. But also, that to move blindly forward without recognization of a/the goal leads to more and greater problems.

The end of the season seems more like the beginning. I know a whole season is lengthy for a prologue; but, it appeared to be more about recognition of their problems - recognition rather than actual growth. Perhaps, for Buffy, this season was a continuation of her inner conflict at the point of the Gift?

Not entirely to save the world; but, because she was beyond tired of being in it. She stays alive(in Bargaining from obligation and perhaps love). She tells us in OMWF she is looking for something to sing about that she'll do her job but inside the fights an empty one. In TR she names herself a martyr.

Midseason she escapes into the dark side of herself without really addressing what that aspect is. In Normal Again she reaffirms the importance of her family including the scoobs. In TTG/Grave she questions her purpose and realizes she does want to live.

The next season will hopefully build on this for her and the other main characters. It was a long time to be in the darkness.

[> [> [> Buffy's state of mind was best described in Dead Things -- Rufus, 18:39:51 06/15/02 Sat

Out of this World
by Bush

When we die we go into the arms of those that remember us
We are home now out of our heads out of our minds
Out of this world out of our time
Are you drowning or waving
I just want you to save me
Should we try to get along
Just try to get along
So we move we change by the speed of the choices that we make
And the barriers are all self-made
That's so retrograde
Are you drowning or waving
I just need you to save me
Should we try to get along
Try to get along
I am alive
I am awake to the trials and confusion we create
There are times when I feel we're about to break
When there's too much to say
We are home now out of our heads out of our minds
Out of this world out of this time
Out of this time
Out of this time

When did Buffy stop drowning and start waving?

The ironic part of this song is the fact that even as unhealthy Buffy and Spikes relationship became, they may just have saved each other.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's state of mind was best described in Dead Things -- shadowkat, 19:56:09 06/15/02 Sat

Wow.

That didn't occur to me, but you are absolutely right.

Buffy stops Drowning and starts to begin waving shortly
after Dead things. She starts with Tara. Spike keeps pushing her on coming back wrong - so she asks tara to research it. In OAFA, Spike leaves her with Dawn and she begins to deal with her sister. Then later...in AYW, she starts to deal a little after she breaks up with Spike.

Breaking up with Spike, pushes him to deal with his stasis.
Before their relationship - it was help Buffy, kill demons, do money making schemes on the side. During their relationship...well we know what went on there. After..try to get her back. When he finally gets pushed off in SR, her comments and his actions force him to finally save himself, make that change.

Sometimes something major has to happen to get us to start trying again. But we have to ultimately do it on our own. We have to save ourselves. no one can do it for us. but it does help to have that nudge. Buffy and Spike did it for each other, ironically. As Xander and Willow did...ironically.

Great posts aliera and Rufus! Thanks!

[> [> [> [> Much agreement here! -- Exegy, 08:49:22 06/16/02 Sun

As horrible as Buffy's relationship with Spike became ... it's what was needed to save her. By nearly destroying each other, Buffy and Spike came to the point where they could rebuild.

Buffy casts off her delusions of being a "normal girl." She's saved from her path of destruction.

Spike recognizes the need to be saved when he seeks change. It's a form of redemption he could never have considered before his ultimate horror (the betrayal of his love, the staple of his identity). That ideal of love has failed; it's time to develop a new ideal. To be reborn into a new "life" (after decades of soulless unlife leading him to the point of nothing).

Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- verdantheart, 12:24:02 06/14/02 Fri

There's something I've been thinking about for awhile. I haven't been able to keep up with the board, so please forgive me if this is extremely repetitive and bofing. It's something I've been thinking about since I read a couple of posts stating the writers' intentions about certain things. I'll say right now that I probably wouldn't have come across anything about this if no one had posted anything about them to this board; I don't have much surfing time.

I'm sorry to say that I have to change my opinion of the writing quality and reluctantly admit that I think it's slipped a little. Maybe they need more involvement by Joss. Maybe it explains the staff shake-up a little. I'll let you agree or dis-, but here's my opinion, for what it's worth.

The main thing I noticed was JE's statement that Spike intentionally set out on a quest to get his soul back.

Which brings me to my quibbles. We shouldn't have to be told what the writers' intentions are if those intentions are important. Multiple interpretations and ambiguity are interesting and makes for rich drama. However, if the writer wants the audience to get it, it's not that hard to bring it out. This can be done without destroying drama; quite the contrary, in fact. On the other hand, intentional ambiguity can stifle drama.

The writers tell us that Spike went into that cave with his eyes completely open and that he intended to get his soul from the time he left Sunnydale. This brings up a question about writer's strategy. What's more important? Creating a surprise, or creating drama?

Surprises can be fun (The Man is your mother, Sydney!), but they should arise naturally out of the action rather than being forced. In retrospect, Spike-gets-a-soul! seems forced. First, there's the misdirection surrounding Spike's chip. (Dialogue from shooting scripts) First, in "Seeing Red":

SPIKE:
Everything used to be so clear. Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his teeth with her bones.

CLEM (queasy):
Metaphorically?

SPIKE
That's how it's always been. I've tasted the life of two Slayers. But with Buffy... (hating himself) This isn't the way it's supposed to be. It's the chip. Steel and wires and silicon. It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.

(Spike's self-loathing hits an all time low. Clem gives him an encouraging pat on the shoulder.)

CLEM:
Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You never know what's just around the corner. Things change.

(Spike considers that, his wheels turning.)

SPIKE:
They do. (a beat) If you make them.

(Clem grins, slapping him on the back happily.)

CLEM:
There you go! Bright side! Chin up!

SPIKE:
She thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What I'm capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It won't be easy, but I can be like I was. Before they castrated me. Before... (a beat) Then she'll see who I really am.

(Spike smiles darkly, his eyes dancing with secret schemes. He grabs a nearby duffle bag - starts throwing stuff into it. Clem totally misses Spike's sinister intent.)

CLEM:
Now you're talking!

Clearly the intent here is to make us believe he's leaving to have his chip removed: "It's the chip � It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing." "Before they castrated me." (not "she"; "they"). There's another "Before," but that isn't much of a hint. The stage direction indicates "sinister intent." Moving on to "Villains":

DEMON VOICE:
And you want to return. To your former self �

SPIKE:
Yeah.

And, finally, in "Grave":

SPIKE:
So, give me what I want. Make me what I was � so Buffy can get what she deserves.

DEMON VOICE:
Very well�. Your soul is returned to you.

As posters to this board have pointed out, the phrases "Make me what I was" and "former self" present major problems. First, if Spike (Spilliam?) is now a vampire with a soul, it is hardly his former self. His former self could be interpreted as human William or Spike sans chip. Vampire Spike + William's soul could hardly be interpreted as Spike's "former self" in even the broadest of terms and it's difficult for most of us to imagine Spike referring to this option in these terms. Spike knows the result would be neither Spike nor William, but someone else. Meanwhile, is it plausible that Spike thinks that human William is an appropriate mate for Buffy? I find that ludicrous considering Spike's opinion of his former incarnation. I would think that Spike would imagine Buffy would be disdainful of William. Spike probably would think William didn't have the cojones to be acceptable to Buffy (pardon the vulgarity, please). The remaining possibility brings us back to the chip, which is apparently (per the writers) not the chosen option. However, many fans were left with the impression that Spike thought he wanted the chip out only to have the demon interpret that what he came for was his soul. Others maintained that Spike must have mentioned that he wanted his soul back some time off screen.

It's the first option that is the true option, yet it is the third option that makes sense based on dialogue. All you have in support for the first option is "So, give me what I want," possibly indicating an addition, but not necessarily so, considering English idiom. This statement is immediately counterbalanced by "Make me what I was."

We are unfortunately left with the conclusion that the writers have stretched dialogue past the point of believability to protect a surprise they want to spring on us. Spike, a guy who has a lot of trouble keeping his opinions to himself, is being unusually indirect in his wording. By harping on the chip and "castration," which could hardly refer to his loss of his human soul, they obscure the aim at the cost of solid characterization. The surprise here seems to be forced rather than natural, IMHO.

We're left with ambiguity where the writers are clear. This is an important point, not a nuance. Think about it. A soulless vampire voluntarily embarking upon a quest to get his soul back. Voluntarily seeking what Angelus (and the gypsies) considered a curse. All for his love for a woman who, let's face it, treated him like crap (let's avoid the debate of who deserved what, please, that's not the topic here). He knows that his very identity will be destroyed by this process, but he's made the choice to do it in order to create a being who can be all the things to Buffy that he's wanted but failed to be.

This leaves us to (if we can divine the intentions of the writers) reflect on Spike's journey in retrospect. And I admit to shedding a few tears over the full import of what he did. But the experience should take us to the emotional response, not leave us to trip over it if by chance we consider it after the fact.

Never mind any quibbles about whether multiple interpretations are desirable (Spike as a kind of Hamlet whose motives could or should be debated). Here we have a situation that has huge dramatic potential. The audience should be left in tears, but instead they're going for shock. Sorry guys, once the trials began, it was either chip out or soul in. And you know what? We had Angelus, and we've seen Spike sans chip and soul. Spike could never measure up to Angelus in menace (nor could Spike hurt Buffy in the way Angelus could), so the likelihood was soul in. Granted, we've had Angel, but there's no reason that "Spilliam" would be like Angel any more than William was like Liam. Was anyone really surprised?

Is it simply a logistical question? Is it that building up Spike's journey would be too expensive in the face of the face of the expenses surrounding Willow's experience? There were a lot of locations, props, effects, and stunts in the Willow story. That could prevent Spike's story from being displayed with more sets, larger fights in less-claustrophobic spaces, etc. Yet I can't blame Spike fans for feeling shorted. (And I realize I'm backpeddling a little on my previous opinions based on the writers' stated intentions.)

I can't help but think that Spike's emotional journey could have been handled better. At a minimum, they could have made Spike's final words less ambiguous (maybe leave out the "Make me what I was").

Sorry, writers, you need to bring important plot points out. You can't just leave them to be seen only if the viewer squints at them in just the right way. (And how many viewers squint like we do here at this board?) The writers shouldn't have to clarify their intentions afterwards; they should be plain. And if important plot points aren't plain, it isn't the fault of the viewers.

A less important but still significant plot point would be the writers' intention that we understand that Buffy felt some guilt over how she treated Spike. Unfortunately, the action and dialogue leaves us with a far stronger impression that her guilt is over what this means for Buffy, not Spike (a self-centered view in which she has little or no concern over what her actions mean for/to Spike). Her angst in "Dead Things" was not followed up by any action toward Spike that would indicate remorse, and we are only left with her refusal to kill Spike as an extremely weak signal that she has some regrets over hurting him (Can we "say making his life a living hell?" Again, I am not addressing what Spike did to her.).

There it is. I'm disappointed to see that what I consider important plot/character points remain obscure because the writing does not bring them out adequately. It leaves the writers with some potential back-filling to do next season. I guess I've gotten spoiled, expecting so much from the ME team.

In a way, I hope that many of you disagree with my opinion.

[> Re: Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:54:08 06/14/02 Fri

An important thing to remember is that the demon could apparently read Spike's mind when he first came to him. This shows that Spike didn't NEED to say why he came there. The demon already knew.

[> [> Re: Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- vh, 14:17:52 06/14/02 Fri

The question isn't what the demon knows. It's what the audience knows and whether or not the writers want the audience to know it (and when).

[> [> [> Re: Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:14:57 06/14/02 Fri

I personally never thought that Spike got tricked into taking a soul. After all, everyone should realize that the demon could read Spike's thoughts, and therefore should know that the demon was giving him what he was thinking of getting, even though Spike never said it. Frankly, I have no idea how the accidental soul theory got started.

[> Should I be sorry if I don't disagree? -- Darby, 12:59:08 06/14/02 Fri

I think that what we've been seeing - more and more as Joss' attention has been pulled to Firefly - is just as you have suggested: poor execution of what could have been a smooth story. It goes along with what a lot of people think (and, to be fair, I know that many do not) of how the "death of Tara" was actually structured very formulaically within the show.

Compare this to the introduction of Dawn, where similar misdirection was necessary: when we watch those episodes again, we see how the ominous tones were of our own invention. Remember how evil Dawn looked spying out of Buffy's window? How it seemed obvious that, whatever she was, she knew her role and was bent on some sort of evil? With Joss' more direct supervision, this was skillfully done with nary a retrospective quibble. That element is often missing now - not enough to drop the show into the mediocre range, but to put it a notch below what we know it can be. Just. My. Opinion.

[> Footnote Re: Quibbles -- Sophist, 13:00:24 06/14/02 Fri

I never noticed this before. Spike's words in the crypt:

She thinks she knows who I am. What I'm capable of. She has no idea.

are nearly identical to those used about Buffy in Restless and B v. D.

Still thinking about the rest of your post.

[> Re: I wish I could... -- LittleBit, 13:24:49 06/14/02 Fri

...but JE's interview assertions came as a major surprise to me. At no point in the unveiling of Spike's journey, from the moment he determined to undertake it did I think he was heading out to get a soul. Actually, when he made his 'final request' I said (out loud), "oh, badly worded." and, then, there was a soul.

My feeling was that if JE (or other writers) felt the need to explain to us the intent of a storyline, then they didn't tell the story very well.

[> Re: Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- aliera, 16:56:20 06/14/02 Fri

I honestly didn't take the interview or the episodes this way. Granted I rushed through the reading of the interview; but, I read it more ambiguously. That the writers intended from the beginning to give him a soul not that it was Spike's intent, certainly not consciously.

[> [> hmmm! I like that. -- Rahael, 17:19:26 06/14/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- PatHawk, 17:59:58 06/14/02 Fri

I have to agree, it wasn't his intention, but the Spike's saga built towards his becoming more human.

As Buffy fans, my girlfriend and I both got the strong impression that Spike was NOT trying to get his soul back. After all, he refered to his chip as being the source of his problems, of being 'castrated' because of it.

But the chip simply inhibits his ability to cause direct physical harm to humans. There are many, many other ways to spread pain and destruction.
Rather Spike's major problem is his development of a rudementary conscience. Because of it, he no longer functions on the simple basis of "Want. Take. Have."
He no longer perceives the world as his playground, filled with 'walking happy meals', potential lackeys, and possible threats.
Suddenly he has someone who treats him as a man, and is a trusted member of a group. This changes him, reaches back beyond the demon soul which has claimed his undead shell, and stikes a cord with his far distant memories of humanity. It lit a spark. Of caring, of love.
And as we know, love and all it's baggage makes things much more complex. It adds shades of grey where before there was only darkness.
Spike, having spent decades as a violent demonic vampire, is totally un-equipped to make sense or handle these emotions.

His evil demon side(long dominant) is disgusted, confused with this new turn of events, and his love for Buffy, and all the other feelings generated by that love, such as remorse. Spike's, simple fun-filled world is threatened by his newborn conscience. He's feeling guilt, sorrow, frustration. He's tasting life, and it's bitter-sweet, complex. So, he's rather go back to previous state, were everything was a series of hedonistic indulgences waithing to happen.
But rather than blame his conscience, his love, which he can do nothing about, he focuses on something tangible, something he can affect. His chip. But removing his chip won't change what he has become.

The chip, after all, does not prevent him from harming Buffy. Yet, he feels remorse after having assaulted her. The growth of Spike as a person, beyond his chaotic evil nature, was borne out of love for Buffy. And the "Steel and wires and silicon" in his head has nothing to do with his emotions.
What the chip did was set in motion a series of events that tore him away from his life of murder and mayhem, and exposed him to Buffy and the Scoobies, exposed him to their world, which changed him emotionally. It wasn't a complete metamorphasis, but it was a good start.

However, life is a difficult challenge at times, and in a fit of perplexed, conflicting emotions, he went to see that demon to have his chip out.
To make things simple, guilt free, fun again.
But he made a mistake. He met the proverbial Genie, and made a vague wish. A wish that was open to interpretation.
And so the Demon Genie interpreted the final wish as best he could. And he gave Buffy what she deserves, in his judgement.
Spike, with a soul.

And now, like Spike said, he is not a man, not a monster, but the best of both. And that is precisely what Buffy needs in her man.

[> [> [> Re: Quibbles (SPOILERS through S6, major spoiler for Alias), longish -- aliera, 11:04:48 06/15/02 Sat

"Rather Spike's major problem is his development of a rudementary conscience."

So now what is the soul again? If he really looked into his *soul* and then came to an epiphany and asked at the very end to have his "soul" returned-well, see my problem?

Also this is where I think it would have been more interesting to leave him unsouled.

I have alot of trouble posting here because my mini-daschund Sara doesn't like me to pay attention to the computer instead of her (she's barking at mer now) Thus the typos and I'm getting a short post inferiority complex. LOL Another interesting thread tho!

[> [> Quibbles & disinformation (SPOILERS through S6) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 14:18:06 06/15/02 Sat

From the little I've seen/heard of ME's off-camera interviews Whedon & Co. are perfectly capable of feeding disinformation to the audience. The purpose would be to keep people guessing about the rectitude of the various leaks & spoilers running about.

Not a new phenomenon; recall the "three + endings" for the "who shot J.R.?" episode of Dallas; even the cast didn't know the ending that would be shown.

[> Agree and disagree and about Lines in shooting script not episode...(spoilers) -- shadowkat, 06:56:01 06/15/02 Sat

First, I generally agree with your thrust. I have to admit my initial reaction was that he asked for a chip and got a soul instead which caused me to burst out laughing. It took numerous posts and writer interviews to change my mind. Then rewatching episodes - I thought okay this makes sense, he's been told he's an evil soulless vampire over and over again - so maybe somewhere unconsciously this motivates him to go after that soul. Rufus' posts convinced
me the most. She clearly shows in past text - text used in the actual episode not just seen in shooting script - where
Spike is interested in a soul or the foreshadowing that he wants one. She backs it up with past interviews from both Fury and JE. That said - it still felt terribly ambiguous to me while I was watching it. And I keep wondering if aliera and others may not be right when they say this was more of a unconscious desire instead of a conscious one.
My current theory is Spike's ego was lying to his id.
But the fact that we have to come up with theories to fill in the blanks does show some sloppiness on the part of the writers. When you spring a surprise on a viewer or reader - they should be able to go back and see it clearly from your story. Clearly. The way they wrote it - 20% of us can sort of see it clearly and the rest are still convinced he consciously went after the chip, got a soul instead and the writers are misleading everyone in their interviews.
I'd hardly call that clear writing. Sure the story should be focused on Buffy - but not to the expense of the other characters. I know they can do better - I've seen them do it on Angel with Darla and on Btvs with Angel. Perhaps Darby's right - this maybe indicative of Joss's lack of involvement in certain episodes this year. It may be corrected by pushing some of the writers to another show?
From the interviews - I got the impression that there was some disagreement amongst the writers on where the story was headed and this may have showed up in their writing?

2. This was only in the shooting script not in the actual epsiode:
"CLEM:
There you go! Bright side! Chin up!

SPIKE:
She thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What I'm capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It won't be easy, but I can be like I was. Before they castrated me. Before... (a beat) Then she'll see who I really am.

(Spike smiles darkly, his eyes dancing with secret schemes. He grabs a nearby duffle bag - starts throwing stuff into it. Clem totally misses Spike's sinister intent.)

CLEM:
Now you're talking!

Clearly the intent here is to make us believe he's leaving to have his chip removed: "It's the chip � It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing." "Before they castrated me." (not "she"; "they"). There's another "Before," but that isn't much of a hint."

Actually this was only in the shooting script not filmed or shot in the actual episode. I watched it three times and they end the scene with Spike saying :"They do if you make them."
So ask yourself why did they leave it out? Was it because they were afraid we'd misinterpret it and think that getting the chip was the intent? At any rate - I think we need to be careful about using lines in shooting scripts that weren't actually filmed to support a thesis. There's a reason the writers/director didn't use it. Whether that is to save time or because they feel it detracted from their intent.

If they left it out because they were afraid of misinterpretation - then I can think of a few other lines that should have been left out as well. Or maybe it's how
the actor was directed to read those lines? If this was a deliberate attempt to mislead us - it worked, although must admit I knew he was getting a soul. I just didn't know he wanted one. Now I can see he did...but it took a while for me to get there. I agree it would have been a far more interesting story if the ambuguity was over whether or not he'd get a soul instead of whether or not he wanted one.
What they should have done was made it clearer to the audience in Seeing Red that he wanted a soul and was off to get one and whether he could or not was up in the air.
They certainly laid the groundwork for it. Clem's mention of the kooky shaman. The trials. This would have been far more suspensful and dramatic. Instead the audience thought he was trying to get the chip out and ended up accidently getting a soul instead. The writers had to explain that he intended to get the soul in their interviews.

Personally I like aliera's thesis that it was an unconscious desire. If that's the case...then I can forgive the writers. But you are correct I shouldn't have to.

[> [> Re: Agree and disagree and about Lines in shooting script not episode...(spoilers) -- aliera, 12:33:48 06/15/02 Sat

Thanks that was kind. I just don't know. And if we are debating this (we lucky band of buggered....) imagine the average viewer? Until this season, I was unspoiled and didn't read the boards (nor had I read any of the essays of past seasons until this year after january in fact.) I think the average person would have been very surprised by the outcome.

I still have a question as to why the demon would have granted this *wish*? Wouldn't his logical motivation be to want Spike to wreak more havok? Become a stronger force for evil?

[> [> [> Re: Agree and disagree and about Lines in shooting script not episode...(spoilers) -- shadowkat, 15:12:59 06/15/02 Sat

"Until this season, I was unspoiled and didn't read the boards (nor had I read any of the essays of past seasons until this year after january in fact.) I think the average person would have been very surprised by the outcome. "

That makes two of us. Until january I didn't know there were posting boards on this. And the most I got spoiled was through Herc on the AICN site last year. Never wrote an essay until Feb on Buffy and didn't read fanfic until Dec.

The average viewer was surprised, but not as much as you'd think. I managed to hook my mother who didn't know what was going to happen. She was surprised - but she is the one who convinced me that he unconsciously wanted it. That he deep down was going after the soul. I was the one, oddly enough who thought he didn't get what he wanted.

Her take on the lurker demon was maybe he was neutral and not necessarily an agent of evil. This is from an unspoiled viewer who hasn't read any essays on it. She's spoken to me, but stops me when I go overboard.

So maybe the average unspoiled viewer gets it better than we do?? (shrugs)

"I still have a question as to why the demon would have granted this *wish*? Wouldn't his logical motivation be to want Spike to wreak more havok? Become a stronger force for evil?"

More ambiguity. I'm wondering if this demon isn't necessarily evil? My other theory is: from the demon's perspective he was punishing a Dark Warrior who fell from grace. A pathetic demon who had allowed the slayer to castrate him. What better punishment - than to give the demon the human's soul? Remember Angel said the soul was a painful thing. The demon preferred to be without it. Demon's consider human soul's to be beneath them. Inferior. They aim to become pure demon and get rid of the human visage - see The Judge and The Master as examples. In his current form, Spike wasn't furthering evil's cause, if anything his chaotic behavior was causing all sorts of problems. So if they gave him and soul and let him join the forces of good, maybe he'd set back that side for a change?
I'm sure the demon got a kick out of the whole thing.
Bit like the old adage watch out what you wish for - from the demon point of view?

Another theory I came up with - is that demon is a neutral entity. If you pass the required trials - it will reward you with your heart's or ego's desire. But you must be reduced to your essence - to express that desire. And be found worthy. If you aren't - well you die and the demon feeds off your failure. If you succeed, the demon gives you what you want and gets satisfaction from watching you play the game. Not unlike the demonic shaman in Angel. Or the demon could be like Lorne? In the greek myths there were neutral entities that tested heros all the time...seemed evil but weren't. Mind is drawing a blank on the names at the moment.

At any rate, ME hasn't really told us. They've left it open to interpretation. Hate and love it when they do that. Must admit, I'm masochistic - I prefer my stories ambiguous, gives my imagination free reign to fill in the gaps. IF Btvs
was less ambiguous, I would probably be less obsessed.
But it can be frustrating at times. That said, even I think they may have been a little too ambiguous in their writing this season, or we wouldn't have had nearly as many vigorous debates ending in stalemates on the boards. Not that I don't like the debates - love them. But it is a sign of ambiguous writing when half the audience is convinced that Riley and Sam were the villains in AYW and not Spike.
(I knew Spike was supposed to be the Doctor, but I appear in the minority. LOL!)

In their defense - I think the writers tried to pull off something incredibly ambitious this year - more ambitious than any other tv show I've seen. I applaud them for the attempt. The fact that they didn't quite pull it off as I'd hoped, can't really fault them for given the limitations of time, format, and budget. I do wonder what would have happened if Joss Whedon had written more of the episodes and been more directly involved in the final editing and production of each episode. But considering what MN had to pull off - I don't think she did that poorly a job. I know I couldn't have done it any better. And if this is the first time she executive produced a major TV show - I have to applaud her for not playing it safe and taking some interesting risks. Can't say the same for the rest of the tv shows this past season, unfortunately. So I agree with the Saturn Awards - ME did raise the standards of both the genre and tv a notch this year.

[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and disagree and about Lines in shooting script not episode...(spoilers) -- aliera, 16:21:29 06/15/02 Sat

You could be right shadowkat. Most of my friends and none of my family watch the show. The one friend that watches prefers Charmed so we come from different places. That's why I started reading the postings and essays.

But I have become aware that it's a double-edged sword and that I might have enjoyed the show more and certainly in a different way if I had been unspoiled. Even the thoughts of the unspoiled can cause both pleasure and add insight or confuse the issue. Sometimes there's so much negativity that I've had to take a break. Life demands already impose a lot of other breaks.

On the Spike issue inspite of the writers words I am going to keep an open mind. I don't find that the ME people lie as much as most people seem to think; but, I do think that part of the attraction of the show is the element of the unexpected and they will mislead.

Their strongest position is to leave as many paths open as possible. They've told us he went for a soul and Joss has told us they're not doing angel again. Beyond that there's a lot of wriggle room, thankfully.

[> VERY nice! Or, writers should SHOW, don't TELL. -- Earl Allison, 14:21:05 06/15/02 Sat

MotRvtB Part 2: Vampires and Demons and Souls! Oh My! -- O'Cailleagh, 12:57:25 06/14/02 Fri

PART 2: VAMPIRES AND DEMONS AND SOULS! OH MY!

Sorry this essay is later than planned; I've not been well these past couple of days. All better now though.
This carries on where the last essay left off, in the way that the information provided on planes of existence etc, is central to my theories. It is more of a ramble than the previous essay as the subject matter is of a very confusing nature!

THE SUBTLE BODIES

In order to examine the role of the soul within the Buffyverse, we need to understand what it is, and how it relates to our physical bodies. Everything within the physical plane (i.e. - with physical 'substance') possesses a physical body. This includes all forms of life, and all non-living things. Most (if not all) physical bodies are, however, merely the densest vibration of the object's energy field-there is far more than meets the (physical!) eye. These energy fields have been described in many ways, but we will examine them here as suggested by the model of the Universe provided in Part 1 of this essay.

Life-forms Within the Buffyverse

There are several forms of physical life found within the Buffyverse. A number of these are also found within our Universe (e.g.: humans, animals), but the remainder (demons, vampires, etc) do not exist here in any physical form.

Humans

Humans are comprised of: the physical body (which should be assumed to function the same within the Buffyverse); the etheric body (consisting of the meridians, nadi, and chakras of the Eastern philosophies, and the etheric blueprint, as well as the innermost layer of the aura); the mental/emotional bodies (also known as the mind, this is where thoughts and emotions take place, and where memories are stored); the astral or psychic body (utilised during astral travel and psychic arts such as telepathy and psychic healing); the spiritual body (utilised in clairvoyance/audience/sentience, channelling spirit and spiritual healing. It is also one of the bodies that is left behind as a 'ghost'); and the divine body or soul (the divine spark, the link to Deity/Creation, the conscience. This body is utilised when using Reiki). Within our Universe, these bodies are separate to a degree and are only consciously accessible through practise and effort. In the Buffyverse, however, due to the heavy interaction of the planes of reality, these subtle bodies are more easily accessed.

Animal

With the possible exceptions of primates and cetaceans, animals have a different arrangement of subtle bodies. Their physical and etheric bodies are in essence much like ours, as are their astral and spiritual bodies. The major differences occur in the mental/emotional bodies and the divine body. These bodies are not as developed or evolved within animals as they are within humans. The mental/emotional bodies operate on a far more instinctual level (food/sex/survival) and the divine body is far less individual, forming part of a group-soul. Thus, upon the divine plane we have Gods and Goddesses representing different aspects of human nature (as well as Nature itself), yet little to no animal 'Gods' as such, only Totem-Spirits, such as Coyote, Raven, or Bear (to name only a few). These Totem-Spirits are the group-souls of animals.

Demon

In the Realverse, demons do not possess physical bodies. However, most demons within the Buffyverse do, and are able to exist on the physical plane, though there are a number of demons who, not possessing a physical body, are unable to exist corporeally. Nonetheless, these non-corporeal demons are usually able to manifest physically from time to time.
Demons possess the same set of subtle bodies as humans, i.e.: physical; etheric; mental/emotional; astral; spiritual; and soul. The major difference here is that the soul is of demonic origin, not divine, so although it performs the same basic functions as the human/divine soul (life-spark, link to creation, conscience), its goals are different. Whereas the human soul will usually strive to become One with Deity through positive, Good deeds, the demonic soul will usually strive to reach its own Source through negative, Evil (from a human perspective) deeds.
There also appear to be demons of a more animalistic nature; however it is unclear as to whether these should be viewed in a similar light to 'Earth' animals.

Vampires

As with demons, vampires, as seen in the Buffyverse do not exist physically within the Realverse. There are several vampiric animals (such as fleas, mosquitoes and vampire bats), and many astral creatures known for their vampiric tendencies, as well as cases of psychic vampirism between humans, but nowhere in our Universe is there anything resembling a physical bloodsucking vampire.
Vampires are former humans that have been killed by the draining of their blood, and infected, or possessed, by a demonic soul, which forces the human soul out of the physical body into The Ether, and reanimates the corpse bringing it new life. This is altogether different to the phenomenon of zombies, which are dead humans reanimated (but not living) by magick.
The subtle bodies of the vampire are perhaps the most intriguing of the ones discussed so far. Upon entering the physical body, the demon soul replaces the human soul and proceeds to integrate itself into the subtle bodies of its host. This has the effect of altering the metaphysical make-up of the human.
The physical body is now stronger, faster and more resilient, with a greater capacity for healing. It is also nourished by the blood of humans and animals. How the physiology is altered to accommodate this is unclear. The physical body is also able to change instantaneously into a form that is better designed for hunting and feeding (known as the game face!). How this is possible is related to the changes to the rest of the bodies. The etheric, astral and spiritual bodies (all 'replicas' of the physical) are infused with the demonic soul. This changes their appearance to something more like the original demon responsible for the creation of vampires (see the Pylea arc of Angel the Series S2 for a possibility of what this might look like). This then affects the physical body, creating the game face, and eventually causing the devolution of the physical body into an animalistic form (The Master, Kakistos).
The demon soul of the vampire is much like the group souls of the animal kingdom. It is a part of the demon that first mixed his blood with a human's, and as such, is not capable of any form of conscience. Its role is merely to give life to the human corpse, while passing on its need for Blood (the energetic equivalent of physical blood. For further information, please consult any good book on Traditional Chinese Medicine), which manifests as a physical blood-lust. This animalistic nature is overlaid onto the self-aware, conscious mental/emotional bodies, pervading its thoughts and feelings, and twisting its memories, creating what we know as the vampire personality. Therefore, the vampire *is* the person that it once was, and has the capacity for both Good and Evil (just as demons and humans do, although the vampire has no real concept of either), but will be driven by its instincts to survive to all other costs. An analogy may be drawn here to a pet lion, tiger, or bear. Although the animal may be tame, it will usually attack if hungry or scared enough, bite the hand that feeds it.
In the case of a chipped vampire, such as Spike, these urges are curtailed in a rather Pavlovian method, through an electro-neural shock issued when attacking a human. This does not stop the urges, but decreases the likeliness of the attack being continued.
Angel is a special case among vampires (as is Spike by all accounts) in that he possesses, in addition to his demon soul, a human soul. This human soul, being the original 'inhabitant' of the physical body and of a higher point of evolution than the demon group-soul, has dominance (for the most part) over the demon. This gives Angel a true conscience, comparable to any human or full demon, unlike other vampires. He still has the urges to drink blood, but is content to drink animal blood, safe in the knowledge that he is not causing harm to humans.

Coming Soon�Part Three: The Slayer and The Key

[> great essay, o'c! raises some q's. -- anom, 17:11:02 06/14/02 Fri

"Humans are comprised of: the physical body (which should be assumed to function the same within the Buffyverse); the etheric body (consisting of the meridians, nadi, and chakras of the Eastern philosophies, and the etheric blueprint, as well as the innermost layer of the aura); the mental/emotional bodies (also known as the mind, this is where thoughts and emotions take place, and where memories are stored); the astral or psychic body (utilised during astral travel and psychic arts such as telepathy and psychic healing); the spiritual body (utilised in clairvoyance/audience/sentience, channelling spirit and spiritual healing. It is also one of the bodies that is left behind as a 'ghost'); and the divine body or soul (the divine spark, the link to Deity/Creation, the conscience. This body is utilised when using Reiki)."

I had the impression reiki dealt w/several of these "bodies," not only the divine one--does it? And which/how many of them are/make up what's known as a person's "aura"?

"Whereas the human soul will usually strive to become One with Deity through positive, Good deeds, the demonic soul will usually strive to reach its own Source through negative, Evil (from a human perspective) deeds."

The Source? We're not getting into the Charmedverse here, are we? @>)

"In the case of a chipped vampire, such as Spike, these urges are curtailed in a rather Pavlovian method, through an electro-neural shock issued when attacking a human."

Not just humans, according to Riley (or another Initiative type)--I think he said Spike couldn't harm a living thing. So that means Spike doesn't even have the option of feeding directly on vermin--he buys blood from a butcher. And Angel did feed on humans after he was re-ensouled, when he hooked back up w/Darla. Uh...guess that's not really a question, just an observation.

[> [> Re: great essay, o'c! raises some q's. -- O'Cailleagh, 18:02:27 06/14/02 Fri

Hey Anom.
Reiki does indeed work through the other bodies, it starts on the Divine Body and filters down. All of the bodies mentioned form the aura (as do others depending on the authority....but lets not get into that one again!;))
I was using the Source as an alternative for the Divine Plane (I realise you were probably joking here!)...and yes this means that the demonic soul is situated on the Divine Plane, just as the human soul is.
Quite right about Spike and Angel, obviously Angel's human soul took a little while to 'take'...that would be my guess at least.

[> Re: MotRvtB Part 2: Vampires and Demons and Souls! Oh My! -- aliera, 17:49:36 06/14/02 Fri

Thanks for the essay. It was very interesting reading. I have generally thought that the process of making a vamp contained a physical component also. That there is a substance in the parent's blood that needs to be transmitted to the victim to complete the physical change and perhaps enable the human's body to accept the demonsoul. Thank you again for the post.

Another Spike Post... (spoilers) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 16:42:41 06/14/02 Fri

I am not one to muse on the issue of Spike's possible soul and/or humanity, but I was watching the rerun of "Angel" on FX today and a scene really caught my eye. The parallel between the two scenes, I think, are quite eerie. I apologize ahead of time if anyone had already mentioned this.

________________________________________________
Buffy: The Vampire Slayer- "Angel"

Darla: Is there anything better than a natural disaster? (walks away) The panic. The people lost in the streets. It's like picking fruit off the vine. (reaches the bed) Nice! You're living above ground, like one of them. You and your new friend are attacking us, like one of them. (walks to the window) But guess what, precious? You're not one of them.

Darla: Are you?

Angel: No. But I'm not exactly one of you either.Darla: (walks to the fridge) Is that what you tell yourself these days?

-----------------------------------------
Buffy: The Vampire Slayer- "Smashed"

BUFFY: Me? I'm lost? Look at you, you idiot! (Spike getting up) Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in?

[> Re: Another Spike Post... (spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:31:36 06/14/02 Fri

Something I found interesting:

SMASHED

Spike: A man can change, Buffy.
Buffy: But you're not a man, you're a thing.

SCHOOL HARD

Angel (referring to his souled state): Things change.
Spike: Not us! Not demons!

Spike has become like Angel in many ways (both trying to reform their actions) except Spike doesn't feel guilt for things he did before, which is a major factor with Angel.

[> [> Re: Another Spike Post... (spoilers) BUT........ -- shygirl, 06:03:57 06/15/02 Sat

but that was before Spike had a soul....William wasn't a "lout" but I understand Liam was coarse and violent.... It is the man Angel has become that feels the guilt... I can't help but wonder whether Spike with a soul will become insane and suicidal... unless they didn't give Spike his own soul back but a generic one... William was a poet and probably never hurt a fly in his life... now suddenly, he will have to face the full force of over a hundred years of blood and violence on his hands... he will suddenly see why Buffy won't give in to him and the pain may well be more than he ever anticipated... he probably figured since Angel could handle it, so could he.... Someone may have to step in to keep that vampire from running out into the sun.... the watchers' perhaps? Maybe they will capture him as a novelity.. he would certainly be a rare species, no other vampire has said "I love her, so please can I have my soul back" and they may have to re-program the chip just to keep him from killing himself.

[> [> [> Re: Another Spike Post... (spoilers) BUT........ -- tam, 07:49:53 06/15/02 Sat

did spike want a soul? he wanted to be 'as he was' -- no chip, no soul? or chip and soul?

Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Anne, 17:38:23 06/14/02 Fri

I have been trying for a while to figure out why, other than the obvious wolf-crying aspects, Buffy's final "epiphany" in "Grave" simply doesn't work for me. It comes across to me as something that simply hasn't been earned. I think I've finally got it.

Buffy's main problem in Season 6 was obviously a loss of affect. Now I don't pretend to be an expert in psychiatry or psychology, but from everything I've read and seen in myself and others, in real life the main reason people lose affect is because they are repressing the feelings and parts of themselves that are painful, ugly, shameful, or which they fear might hurt other people if they let them loose. So anger, hatred, fear, grief, resentment, cruelty, the lust for violence, all these things get shoved down. Unfortunately, the capacity for love, joy and other positive emotions lives in the same place. Result: loss of feeling.

All the above is just another way of saying that people who lose affect are trying to deny and avoid their dark side. And as has been noted over and over again, Buffy's need to come to terms with her dark side has indeed been a major theme of BtVS as far back as Season 5. In Season 6, the metaphorical vehicle for this problem has been her relationship with Spike.

It is Spike more than any character in the show who exemplifies both the positive and negative sides of the human reservoir of emotions, the cruelty and violent impulses along with the capacity for passion and joy for life. Buffy's simultaneous attraction and repulsion for spike spell out her longing to feel again and her terrible fear of tapping into that reservoir which includes such negative, shameful things. Her "relationship" with him, far from being a way to get closer to her own unconscious, actually becomes a way to distance it as she acts out her hatred and fear of it by abusing Spike verbally, emotionally, and in the end physically.

This theme was carried out beautifully and consistently through "Dead Things". The one and only type of "epiphany" that would have been thematically consistent would have been for Buffy to regain the capacity to reconnect with her positive emotions by recognizing, embracing, and handling, her dark side. And again thematically and metaphorically, the only way this could have been done consistently would have been for her to work out some kind of communication and reconciliation with Spike. This does *not* have to mean a sexual or romantic relationship. But it would have to mean her admitting to Spike that, in their relationship, she, not he, was more truly the "unfeeling monster", and it would also mean her starting to be able to communicate with him in some way other than self-righteous, cruel, snotty put-downs.

Now this of course never happened. And in fact, by sending Spike away for the last three episodes, ME effectively saw to it that it could not happen. Instead, they hastily and unconvincingly substituted the Dawn relationship, which had been very much a side theme all season long, as the vehicle for Buffy's final epiphany.

But there is no reason in the world for anything having to do with Dawn, or with a Willow-created apocalypse, to suddenly reconnect Buffy with her feelings. It simply does not address the heart of the problem, which is her suppression of her dark side. There is no evidence that the source of her lack of affect has been dealt with in any way. And until and unless it is dealt with, there is no way I am going to be able to believe, or like, or embrace, the supposed resurrection of "quippy Buffy". HER. EPIPHANY. HAS. NOT. BEEN. PAID. FOR.

One last note: I have seen posts on various boards suggesting that Dawn is supposed to represent Buffy's emotions. I may not be remembering correctly, but a lot of this seems to have to do with (1) the fact that Dawn is repeatedly shown with heart symbols and (2) Buffy's extremely vague, ambiguous, and unfinished statement in "The Gift" about Dawn being "the only part of her that . . ." Well, sorry, that's not good enough for me. There is no way in which Dawn's own personality represents any remarkable emotionality; there's certainly nothing about her suggesting that she represents unconsciousness or the dark side; and there is no way in which her relationship with Buffy played out in such a way as to represent Buffy's tormented attraction/repulsion for her own darkness -- in sharp contrast to Buffy's relationship with Spike, which played out exactly that way.

Labelling Dawn with physical heart symbols does not make her an appropriate metaphorical vehicle. If Dawn is meant to be a symbol of Buffy's lost emotions then she is a very lame and mechanical one.

[> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Dochawk, 18:42:43 06/14/02 Fri

I disagree with your basic premise, that her epiphany has to be paid for. It doesn't. Epiphany comes from out of left field and is a revelation, not an earned, learned phenomenon. And if she had to pay, she paid for it in The Gift by offering herself up for the world. Depression (loss of affect is one of the symptoms), which in my opinion is what Buffy has suffered from the entire season is not always cured by accepting the dark. it is release from those dark emotions/feelings that allows healing to begin. In fact, the only emotions Buffy allowed herself were the dark emotions, those associated with Spike. It was her acceptance that Spike was not where she needed to go that allowed her to become open to healing. Once she accepts that she didn't come back wrong, that she is in fact not the demon Spike tried to convince her she was that allows her to move towards a postiive outlook on life.

[> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Dariel, 20:56:50 06/14/02 Fri

Dont' quite agree with either one of you: You both put too much importance on Spike, though from different sides of the Spike-is-evil-no-he's-not divide. Buffy was on her own trajectory this year; Spike was just foolish enough to plant himself in her path.

I agree with Anne that Buffy did project a lot of her negative emotions onto Spike this year. However, that has no special meaning now that she has released them. It would be useful for her to realize that she mistreated Spike, but the emotions/conflicts that fueled that mistreatment are mostly gone.

I think Dochawk's statement about Buffy's darker emotions being "associated" with Spike trys to cast blame where there is little. Buffy's darkest emotions, as we saw in Normal Again, involved getting rid of her friends and her sister. It is Buffy who tries to kill them, not Spike. Yes, Spike trys to take advantage of Buffy's estrangement from her friends/the world, but he didn't invent it.

Buffy's first big epiphany comes when she realizes just how angry she is at her friends and her sister, and at her responsibilities, in Normal Again. She is able to move past her dark emotions only by accepting them and then releasing them. You can't let go of negative emotions while pretending they don't exist.

Her second epiphany came in the big hole/grave with Dawn, when she realizes that she no longer has to see her sister as a burden. Dawn is getting stronger, more mature, and can actually make life easier for Buffy, not harder. And the third epiphany came when Xander stops Willow from destroying the world. Buffy sees that she doesn't have to take on the "weight of the world" by herself. In fact, while she's ineffectual and trapped in the ground, her friends save the day.

I think the problem with these last two epiphanies is not that they're unearned; it has to do with ME's presentation. The last two are big, but they are kind of rushed. Everything comes together for Buffy in the last 5 minutes of the season, really.

Oh, yeah. Now that Buffy's back in the world, and Spike has a soul, maybe what Buffy does will be more about him.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Dochawk, 23:18:07 06/14/02 Fri

I agree with virtually everything you said. I am good at not making myself clear. I think Spike was the only place Buffy could release emotion and those were her dark ones. Spike enabled them, but he was certainly not the cause, they were in Buffy from Season 1.

And I agree, I think that in his desire to make sure Willow and Xander had their story line, Buffy's healing was waaay too fast, but then that is also the nature of epiphany. In addition, the anger hasn't been dealt with yet, somehow Buffy has to deal with it.

[> [> [> [> Agree with Dariel and Dochawk here -- shadowkat, 05:47:45 06/15/02 Sat

Dariel is right - often the mistake is placing too much importance on Spike. While Spike's journey was heavily linked to Buffy and All About Buffy. Spike was really just a detour for her. Remember Spike's a supporting character
right now not the main thrust. Try to watch the scenes
with that in mind.

Dochawk is right - Epiphany isn't something you earn, it's like a light bulb that goes off over your head and it went off big time in that tomb in Grave. That's why she was crying. She realized for the first time how wonderful life could be. And it often seems rushed. Though I think they handled Angel's Epiphany better last season on Ats, which is odd coming from me b/c I generally prefer Btvs to Ats.
But that Epiphany felt clearer and more realized.

With Spike - Buffy was figuratively seeking death. Spike seems to realize this in OMWF. "Whisper in a dead man's ear, doesn't make it real." To Buffy, Spike is death personified. He kills. He lives in a crypt or hole in the ground similar to the hole she was in all summer. His crypt is womblike. Going to Spike is like going to the grave.
The sex gives her release, escape from all her woes.
She acknowledges that she is using him for this and yes it is killing her - because in a way she wants to be dead. She wants the release death brings.

It's really not until Willow's magic causes her to fall into the grave again and she must fight the demons of grief and suffering back to back with her sister - that she realizes truly realizes that she doesn't want to be in the ground any more, depressed. She wants to enjoy life. And that's what she tells her sister - "the world is a wonderful place, I want to share it with you."

Ann, I see where you're going, almost fell into the same trap myself, so try watching the shows again - but look at them from the perspective of a depressed individual who is in recovery...not someone who needs to accept their dark side. You might see something you didn't expect. I've discovered all sorts of new angles re-watching the episodes.

[> [> [> [> [> It wasn't my decision to have Buffy spend at least half the season vis a vis Spike -- Anne, 06:59:43 06/15/02 Sat

ME decided to draw out Buffy's problem with reference to Spike -- I didn't. Not only did they spend a fair amount of her screen time with him; they drew out the relationship in such a way that she remained struggling with it, and in the darkness about it, even after she broke up with him. This is where she's stuck, and they haven't unstuck her. During the season, any problems she had relating to her friends and sister received much less time -- yet these are what the focus was on in the "finale" and "epiphany". It's artistically unbalanced in terms of what they put on screen

They decided to use him as a symbol; they need to resolve that symbolism. That's a big part of what I mean by "needing to pay" -- an artistic payment is needed.

In addition, you have not addressed my main argument: that Buffy's loss of affect was due to her repression of her own negative emotions and impulses. That, by the way, is related to Spike only to the degree that ME chose him as a symbol: it's a very real part of Buffy as protagonist with or without Spike. And I don't see any way, with or without Spike, that she has addressed those issues.

As to whether she will in Season 7 -- well, the one thing that I find very slightly encouraging is the fact that Joss has actually admitted to the fact that in this one season, he really didn't wrap things up in the finale. Of course, he said that with regard to Spike, not Buffy -- but part of my argument here is that ME is using Spike as a symbol with regard to one of the central internal conflicts of Buffy's nature.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It wasn't my decision .. -- yuri, 16:47:55 06/15/02 Sat

I agree with you about Spike, Anne, and with alcibiades below, because as much as I keep telling myself "you're putting too much emphasis on Spike," I think that the emphasis was on him. He wasn't just a detour for Buffy off of her post-ressurection path, if he hadn't been there I think it would have been entirely different. Entirely. There have been so many points this year where I've been typing something and said to myself "why are you always writing about spike? Are you some sort of subconscious shipper?" But really it's just so hard to look at any part of Buffy's journey this year without seeing bits of him or what he represents.

For probably the first time ever I really disagree with shadowkat because I never have seen Buffy as just a "depressed individual who is in recovery." I can't let go of the fact that the most intriguing aspect of the last two seasons for me has been Buffy's battle, or lack thereof, with her own evils.

However, I do not entirely agree with Anne about the payment, or whatever you want to call it. I thought the lightbulb idea was accurate, until I read the subthreads below, and I do think catharsis is more on point. I think that Buffy isn't fixed, she's not done with her journey, but she has found new eyes, and somehow it feels right that this happened when spike was away. It would have made a deep, possibly deeper, impression on me if the culmination of the conflicts of the season had been a scene with Spike, but perhaps that's too predictable. Too clearly "Identify problem. Deal with problem. Solve problem." I think that rather than being the solution to her issues with darkness, the scene underground gave Buffy the means with which to recognize those issues, finally.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually I agree with you - some clarification -- shadowkat, 19:11:48 06/15/02 Sat

"For probably the first time ever I really disagree with shadowkat because I never have seen Buffy as just a "depressed individual who is in recovery." I can't let go of the fact that the most intriguing aspect of the last two seasons for me has been Buffy's battle, or lack thereof, with her own evils."

Whoa. I didn't say that she was "just" a depressed individual in recovery. We actually are in agreement here.
When I read you're post, I went...whoa. And re-read my own.
Afraid I'd said something I didn't intend. Nope didn't say that. Whew. But I can see how it may have been misread.

What I meant to say is this is one of several themes operating this year. And yes I see Spike as incredibly important. Read Rufus' post for my views on Spike and Buffy she says it better than I would.

I was trying to point out to Ann what you did in your excellent post above. That Buffy's depression is one of several themes. The darkness/dealing with your inner evils theme is an on-going one that wasn't going to be resolved this year. Hopefully they'll resolve it before the end of the series. The only point you make, yuri, that I disagree with you on is the point you made about what I meant to say.
I'm sorry if that's what you read - I guess I didn't express myself very well. It's a moot pt though since you and Rahael and Rufus expressed it so much better.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol! well then I guess I gotta take back that statement of mine! -- yuri, 20:14:05 06/15/02 Sat

I winced at that "just" when I reread my post, I did something that I really hate when other people do - I intensified a point in your post to an extent where it wasn't really what you were saying anymore, but it still related enough textually to make sense. I think people do it because sometimes confrontation makes your thoughts clearer. Anyhow, we definitely agree, because I do indeed think that depression and recovery were very prevalent themes in her life this year, though of course not JUST. And thank you for your kind words, you are wonderfully gracious for one so astoundingly inspired. Ooh, sometimes I get carried away with my adjectives and adverbs, but I mean it with utmost sincerity.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It wasn't my decision to have Buffy spend at least half the season vis a vis Spike -- Rufus, 18:58:12 06/15/02 Sat

I didn't need Joss to tell me that they were only partly done with Buffy and Spike. It is too simplistic to reduce either Buffy or Spike to victims making the other party totally responsible for anything that happens as result of their secret ship. Neither party is a total victim or villian, they are people in a process of evolving as a result of their total interaction with the world they know. Buffy did have an epiphany in Grave, she understood in a moment that not only did she want to live, but she also wanted to mentor her sister, showing Dawn what a wonderful, even if dangerous, the world is.

What happens to Spike in Grave is a direct result of Buffy rejecting the type of man he is because she can't trust him not to screw up, forcing her to kill him. She admits freely that she cares for him, but it can never be love as his soulless state leaves him too unpredictable (see Smashed). When Spike reacts to a situation it is as a demon who's natural bent is to do the evil thing. He may be able to be good for Buffy, but it only takes one time to leave him in a position of not being able to make it better. The fact that he is able to look at himself and really see the monster he can be, then do something about it is amazing. Putting a chip in Spike sure had unexpected consequences. I'm sure we will see what the long term benefits may be with another vampire with a soul. Getting a soul didn't solve the problem of evil in this world, but it is better than leaving Spike in the limbo he was in, not a man, not a monster.

[> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Anne, 04:09:39 06/15/02 Sat

The feelings that Buffy has not accepted or confronted in any way have to do with her own innate cruelty, love of violence, and overwhelming need to control. My guess is that the real place you disagree with me is on the fact that Buffy has these qualities -- I gather you don't think she does. And of course, if she doesn't really have them she doesn't have to face them. (I think on the "earned" point we're not really disagreeing -- possibly bad choice of words on my part. I meant not to say that she had to suffer in some way for the epiphany; just that clarifying realizations about some major problem have to involve addressing concretely certain aspects of that problem).

Unlike you, I think these qualities have been presented clearly over a number of seasons and need to be addressed. The fact that Buffy has continued being cruel and condescending to Spike even after the breakup (with the one remarkable and interesting exception of the Hell's Bells conversation, rumoured to have been penned by Joss himself), tells me that she still has not confronted her own negative side.

And by the way: this is not character bashing on my part. I think a Buffy with a cruel streak is kind of interesting, as long as she's honest about it, and of course as long as she takes steps to see that it doesn't hurt people it really shouldn't be hurting. But she's not honest and she's not doing anything about it, and at this point I really don't know whether that's a problem of the character still, or a problem of the writers not knowing what they've put on the screen.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- alcibiades, 11:05:57 06/15/02 Sat

Problem of the character:

Her lack of honesty frex continues with Xander in Two to Go, even after their reconciliation, with her not telling Xander that Spike could hit her, even after he queries that he is uncomfortable about leaving Dawn with Spike because he has figured out how to attack Buffy even with the chip.

It makes Spike look even worse than he already looks. Which is pretty bad, considering what he has just done. Because it appears to show he has had to pre-meditate how to attack to Buffy, not that it was a heat of passion reaction gone terribly wrong.

And what is the point of the withholding at this point?

It suits Buffy.

BTW, I'm totally with you, Anne, on the fact that Buffy's epiphany has not been "paid for."

Angel's epiphany worked better last year because Angel paid for his re-emergence from his darkside. He's made it far more integrated into him than Buffy's is this last year. Even his honesty to Gunn, Wes, Cordy about when he fired them, it was because he didn't want them to see the pure form of his demon emerging during his obsession with Darla.

Angel of course lives a lot closer to his dark side than Buffy does, by necessity.

But Buffy similarly spent the first half of the season, from Afterlife on, being utterly and compellingly attracted to Spike, and then half attracted and half repelled and then finally, once she went into all superego mode, mostly repelled with just a controllable amount of attraction left over. But she didn't deal with it or work through it, she forced it down.

And unlike shadowkat, I don't think this was a minor arc for Buffy, I think it was a major arc. She won out over it by brute strength and will and control. But they are feelings she put in a box and closed the lid on, not anything that she has resolved for herself one way or the other. She fought it down.

Even in the last few episodes her attitude towards Spike flips from sad that the man who just attempted to rape her is gone from Sunnydale to she''s going to avoid the tunnels near Spike's tomb even if that means the end of the world.

The last attitude is left unexplicated. Is it because now that Giles is back, she can really leave Spike behind her cause she doesn't need him any more, this assumption being posited on the fact that she turned to Spike most strongly when Giles is not around, when he is leaving and such. Or has her anger caught up to her that now he is the third lover in her life that has left town and left her behind after their split, or because she is disassociating from him utterly.

Similarly, Buffy's darkside that emerged in NA scared her so much that she ran away from it and what it said about her. And true, it was demonically induced, but, like the demon in Hell's Bells or Billy's infection of Wesley in Billy, the spell in NA found plenty of good material lurking not very far under the surface to work with in Buffy.

I guess this is why I felt disenchanted by the ending. I felt a lot of the epiphanies were unpaid for. We had a lot of rottenness building up for a long time, and then a clean sweep.

BTW, I felt far more in tune with the epiphanies of the minor characters than those of the major. Spike and Anya -- their epiphanies had been paid for in gold. Dawn's epiphany really occurred last year, but it was put on hold because Buffy couldn't deal with it or deal with Dawn as a person and not a burden all year, so Dawn had to regress and act like a burden, not a person. Giles' epiphany such as it was, laughter, maturity, letting other people exercise control in the correct sphere, that was pretty much a part of his character already, but the time away from the Scoobies made it that more forceful the way he deal with them this time. But I had a much harder time with Xander and Willow and Buffy's three separate epiphanies. Although less with Xander's than Willow's and Buffy's.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Sophist, 16:59:28 06/15/02 Sat

Nicely said. I actually had more problems with Xander's "epiphany" than Buffy's. At least they built up Buffy's a little in earlier episodes (Gone, DT, NA, Hell's Bells, OAFA). Xander's "get out of jail free card" (I love your phrase) came from nowhere.

As for Buffy, Anne is clearly right that the Spike story was the biggest arc of the season. It's hard to see the failure to reconcile that, while going ahead with others. I have some willingness to give ME the benefit of the doubt (though I've made my own disappointments with the season end quite clear), but I'm not just going to forget the issues over the summer.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- aliera, 17:29:17 06/15/02 Sat

alcibiades wrote sophist wrote < It's hard to see the failure to reconcile that, while going ahead with others.>

I don't disagree entirely with the disappointment. I don't think we know yet that it's a clean sweep. But I tend to view 6-7 as one entity and (just for me) this made sense of the timing, putting SR/Villians as the low point where it naturally fits and TTG/Grave as a setup for 7.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Dochawk, 18:12:37 06/15/02 Sat

I am writn this on a crazy webtv machine i a hotel so please excuse any gramatical errors adtypos.

You are wrong when yu say I don't think Buffy has a dark side, I agree she does. ut I find it really hard to understand where innately cruel" comes from. Besies spi who has shebeen cruel too? In fact, throughth first 5 seasos I think she has shown a great deal of empathy. Now I am going to argue somethingwhichnone will gree with (except maybe Maladanza if he is around). Of coruse Buffy likes violence, she is the slayer. as both Fait and Buffy herself have told us, there is a certain orgasmic quality to the slaying. Virtually none of us would be ale to ignore that kind of conditioning. of course she love the violence its paart of how her job becomes bearable. Why would w expect anything diferent from her And unlike faith or Kendra, she has shown some type o ability todistinguish among demons (that there are some who don't deserve death). she may be te first slayer to ever do so (but that is an assumption). In welcome to the helmouth, giles an Buffy arewatchin the crowd from above in the scene tat is later replicatd wit hSsike and Giles tels her tat she ought to b ale to sense a vampire. she wasn't able to tehn, nor when she meets Angel. But as she becoms more experienced she learn this skill (how did she know that the mayor's aide for example wasn' a vampire when faith attaacked him). Buffy is programmedd to be aware of wampires, it is her caling. so that every time uffy aan Spik are together hervampier sense must b aroused. er natural inclination towards spike, te vampire on a leash, must b towards violence and stakinghim. it is in fact due to Buffy's noble nature and te love she has learned from family and friends that alows her to deal wih Spike at all. Bufy sublimates her violen tenencies towards spike into he sexuality wthim. and soetmes when her anger gets the best of her, the violence loses control. This is where I disagre wih almost everyone, it is Bufy's ability to have felings for Spike at all and her ability t ofrequently treat him like a man and admit that she uses him tat ar against her nature, not he imes when sh treats him violently. Her relationship with spike in many ways shos how much she has grown compared to other slayers.

BTW, I thik th natural cnsequence of th above may be that when Spike erturrns and h is souled Buffy may in fact may be able t osene the diference.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Anne, 19:19:38 06/15/02 Sat

Good, I agree not only that she likes violence but that there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just not sure that she gets that at this point, and I think she needs to.

As to cruelty: other than her quips to the beings she's about to kill, I don't think I can think of other people she's been cruel to, except in "When She Was Bad". She's got it under great control most of the time, which is why she doesn't have to admit it to herself. But occasionally, as in "When She Was Bad", and in her relationship with Spike, it gets out of control. So she just needs to acknowlege it, get that it doesn't make her a bad person, especially considering her calling, and just be sure to handle it. That's all.

[> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:38:36 06/14/02 Fri

One thing to remeber is this:

Traditionally, the summer months are skipped over by the show. We are not shown what the characters do during them. This means that, when Season 7 starts, everyone will have had three months to get adjusted a little better. Buffy's epiphany may not get her back to her old quippy self right away, but she's got some time until the season premiere to work on it.

[> [> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Anne, 03:54:57 06/15/02 Sat

You do not present a huge conflict in someone's character lasting over two seasons, and then have them resolve it off screen.

An internal conflict was presented on screen, a certain central external symbol was chosen to present it, that symbol was then scrapped and an "epiphany" presented that made absolutely no sense in terms of real life human emotional development.

If they pick it up and resolve it early in Season 7, that would be quite another matter. But no, they absolutely don't get to resolve a 2-season character arc for their protagonist off screen.

[> Great essay! -- LeeAnn, 02:30:21 06/15/02 Sat

[> Why must it be "paid for"? -- Earl Allison, 05:57:09 06/15/02 Sat

I agree with your comments that Buffy's epiphany was too quick in coming (it nearly gave me whiplash), but I'm not sure an epiphany is something one needs to pay for.

One can "see the light" at any time.

Would I have preferred it to some (if not all) of the dross this season threw at us? You bet, but that's not what we got.

Still, I'm not sure a reconciliation with Spike was needed as much as the simple acknowledgement that Buffy herself should admit that, without the darkness in her, there could be no light. The all-or-nothing approach isn't working, and while she doesn't (again, IMHO) need to EMBRACE that darkness, she needs to admit that it does indeed exist, and that it is as much a valid part of her as the light.

As for the last bit, the "not good enough" part -- I sympathize, but it's what's there, like it or not, much like many parts of this season some people don't care for :)

Take it and run.

[> [> Re: Why must it be "paid for"? -- Anne, 06:49:03 06/15/02 Sat

Let me phrase it another way: in order to be plausible, an epiphany has to relate in an organic way to the problems that it presumably resolves. (And by the way: this is especially important in a season, like this one, where there have already been three or four instances that seemed at the time to be "epiphanies" and each one of which turned out to be a dead cat bounce).

What I argue in my post is that the problem is the suppression of, and failure to admit to, negative feelings and impulses. Her epiphany in Grave didn't deal with this: she went directly to appreciating life without coping with what created the problem in the first place. That's what I mean by "unearned". As I said in one of my responses above, I don't mean that she has to suffer or that something bad has to happen.

[> [> [> Here are two "payments" -- Dariel, 09:38:07 06/15/02 Sat

What I argue in my post is that the problem is the suppression of, and failure to admit to, negative feelings and impulses.

Back to "Normal Again"--Buffy nearly kills her friends and sister. If that's not a case of negative feelings and impulses out in the open, I don't know what is! In that case, she experiences the feelings and almost goes with them. Because she can finally allow herself to do this, she is able to let the feelings go (or most of them, anyway).

I think another one of Buffy's epiphanies (getting tired of that word, but too lazy to think of another) came in the bathroom scene. After using and dumping him, Buffy was still trying to control Spike. She talks him out of sleeping with the Goth girl in Hell's Bells, then freely expresses her jealousy over Anya in Entropy and Seeing Red. She gives no thought to how what she says and does effects Spike, but expects him to mirror her needs. The attempted rape jogs her out of her complacency and shows her that her actions do have consequences. That she has been messing with another person, not some reflection of herself.

[> [> [> [> Re: Here are two "payments" -- Anne, 11:40:26 06/15/02 Sat

If they'd tried to use "Normal Again" as the major turnaround point, I might at least partially have bought it, though it does not conform to the artistic test of resolving an issue in terms of the main symbol in terms of which the issue has been previously presented.

Problem is, the primary reaction we saw to "Normal Again" was her use of it to taunt Spike "I nearly killed my friends and sister and you know how much they hate me? Zero much. Neener neener neener". Oh yes. Very mature and evolved attitude on the part of the now enlightened heroine. I'm so wonderful I can do anything and nobody will call me on it.

And as for SR: could possibly happen -- but we haven't seen it yet. The conclusions you've drawn were not shown on screen at all.

[> [> [> Epiphany and the unsolved problem -- auroramama, 11:33:55 06/15/02 Sat

I think the epiphany in Grave and the problem of accepting her dark side are almost completely separate.

Buffy's inability to grow and thrive after her resurrection was presented as *due* to the circumstances of her resurrection, not to her rejection of her dark side. At least, I had the impression that *anyone* who had literally gone to their reward and then got yanked out of heaven and back into our imperfect, strife-filled world might have reacted the same way. That is, if they'd resurrected that poor college kid who got his heart cut out by the Gentlemen, he would also have been wandering around in a painful daze, wondering whether he was now in hell.

It's that arc, the price of Buffy's resurrection, that is completed in Buffy's epiphany in "Grave." (Think of all the episode titles that refer to this arc.)

Buffy's need to integrate her dark side is a much longer arc. It started years ago, and it isn't complete yet, and I suspect it won't be until Buffy's story ends. Buffy has accepted that she has the responsibilities of the Slayer, but she still hasn't found a way to be responsible for the world without repressing her dark side.

Actually, I'm surprised at how many people seem to think she ought to have solved this little conundrum by now. Or at least that Buffy's issues with her dark side are pathological, the result of her traumatic experience with Angelus or her conflict with Faith or her innate self-righteous bitchiness. How many people here believe they've fully accepted their negative aspects in a way that ensures that they will never cause unjust suffering to anyone? I'm still working on this and I'm twice Buffy's age.

Come to think of it, that may be what the Council thinks they're doing: dealing with complex issues of morality and behavior on behalf of the Slayer, because most Slayers don't live long enough to address them. Of course, there's a lot of potential for abuse any time people attempt to translate moral issues into orders for others to follow.

auroramama

[> [> [> [> Re: very nice post -- aliera, 17:34:00 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> dark side and resurrections -- lulabel, 22:32:02 06/15/02 Sat

Yes, I think this is a very important point that you've made here, that there are two very distinct issues at work: Buffy's coming to terms with her unwanted, unasked-for resurrection, versus "dancing with her dark side".

I do think the lines become blurred because she deals with both issues the same way - denial, denial, denial. I would also argue that her relationship with Spike has a lot to do with both of these issues, in a somewhat sequential way. She first turns to him for comfort and companionship, and eventually sex, as a way of coping with her post-resurrection malaise. Once it becomes about sex, however, the relationship quickly devolves into being mostly about Buffy's dark side. In a sense, their relationship jumps track from one issue to the other.

So I guess I would summarize by saying that I see these issues as not so much completely separate as they are different strands in a single yarn.

[> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:43:17 06/15/02 Sat

You talk about Buffy's character needing to accept, or at least deal, with the darkness inside of her. Well, you must consider what had just happened. One of Buffy's closest friends not only accepted the darkness, but gave in to it, and it happened to one of the least dark characters of the show. When Buffy saw Darth Willow, she saw that there had always been a potential in her friend to become this. And, if it's in Willow, it must be in her as well. But Buffy doesn't become dark. In trying to save Willow from herself, Buffy's silmotaneausly dealing with her own darkness.

[> Re: Buffy's epiphany hasn't been paid for -- Rattletrap, 14:02:14 06/15/02 Sat

"The one and only type of "epiphany" that would have been thematically consistent would have been for Buffy to regain the capacity to reconnect with her positive emotions by recognizing, embracing, and handling, her dark side."

I've seen this line of thought thrown around quite a bit on the board over the last few months. I think I've finally figured out my problem with this: It assumes that Spike's assessment of Buffy's problem is correct. Frankly, I don't think it is, and I think this season demonstrated that very clearly.

Spike, Dracula, and others have told us over and over that the Slayer's power is rooted in darkness. Ok, up to a point, I'll buy that; but I think Buffy spent too much of this season delving into the darkness and learned pretty conclusively what a dead-end road it is. Her relationship with Spike, while dramatically interesting, was not particularly beneficial to either one of them and they seemed, consistently, to bring out the worst aspects in each other. Her power has a dark aspect, certainly, all power does. But she is first and foremost, as Willow reminds us in 6.1, the "Warrior of the People," a fighter on the side of good.

Her epiphany (I'm not sure that's really the right word, but it'll do for now) in the tomb with Dawn demonstrates a reclamation of her original mission and an understanding that, while it is her journey, it isn't all about her. This season's Journey through Hell/Dark Night of the Soul/Embarcing of the Inner Darkness/Whatever You Want to Call It has provided our heroine some valuable insight into herself and into human nature in general, but it isn't the end of the story, she can't remain in the dark forever.

[> [> another take -- Arethusa, 14:34:37 06/15/02 Sat

What was Buffy's biggest problem this year? Her inability to feel-not exploring her dark side. She repressed love, joy, curiosity, and anger (except with Spike, whom she felt safe venting to) and everything else. In the cave she finally let loose her emotions-laughing, crying, hoping and dreaming of a better future. It was cartharsis, not an epiphany. Buffy alway knew what was important, and what her role was in the world. She won't be hiding in the dark any more.

Just my opinion.

[> [> [> Couldn't agree more -- Rahael, 15:00:19 06/15/02 Sat

The dark is the absence of light.

Buffy didn't come to some sort of intellectual breakthrough, some fundamental realisation. She just saw her horizons suddenly open again. She was thrust into her pain, and let free again.

Personally, I see Buffy's 'primal' side like a force of nature. If nature is cruel, then so is Buffy - she brings death to vampires, but it's a task that is imposed upon her. She is no thrill seeking killer. She might find satisfaction in doing her job well, but at the same time she is alert to the fact that the cruel destiny that she has been given might end up deadening her, turning her to stone inside.

After all, the one thing we can be sure about Buffy is that she's 'full of love'. She contains both day and night inside her (I'm following Redcat's fabulous description at the bottom of the board), contains love, compassionan, determiniation courage and cruelty.

One of the characteristic feelings about 'not being able to feel' is the overwhelming realisation that you are nothing. You do not exist in the real world. You are invisible, and your body and mind make no impression on the world. How could this not have been heightened for Buffy, who knew that she really should be dead, and not alive? The only place she can dwell is the dusk, with Spike. Here, she might be allowed to exist, just a little, and he can make her body feel something at least. The reason treats Spike so terribly, so uncharacteristically (she allows most vampires she kills more mercy)is that now she has exiled herself from optimism and joy and aliveness, she only has the anger to live with. I don't think it is some terrible dysfunction or pathology (just look at how many opportunities a sadist with control issues could have in her position) - if you remove the unhappiness, Buffy could start feeling empathy for Spike. Since she doesn't feel empathy for herself, thinking that she herself is unclean, wrong inside, unforgivable and unloveable, how can she reach out?

The last thing that Buffy needs to do is spend the next season feeling guilty. Once she realises that she is 'right' she will be able to be compassionate and forgiving. And therefore asking her to 'pay' simply exacerbates the problem she has had this season. She does believed that she 'has to pay' and she paid by being unhappy:

"I am gall, I am heartburn
God's most deep decree
Bitter would have me taste
My taste was me"

I do understand Anne, exactly what you mean by 'artistic satisfaction' for what Buffy did. But I believe that what Buffy went through, what caused her behaviour was that artistic payment.

[> [> [> [> Excellent. Thank you. Agree completely. -- shadowkat, 15:18:38 06/15/02 Sat

I tried to say something similar above, but you put it much better than I did.

[> [> [> [> Wonderful post! (who's the poet?) -- erythros-kitty, 15:35:14 06/15/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wonderful post! (who's the poet?) -- Rahael, 15:48:37 06/15/02 Sat

Thank you both!

The poet is Gerard Manley Hopkins, and here is the full version:

I wake and feel the fell of dark, not day
What hours, O what black hours we have spent
This night! what sights you, heart, saw; ways you went!
And more must, in yet longer light's delay.

With witness I speak this. But where I say
Hours I mean years, mean life. And my lament
Is cries countless, cries like dead letters sent
To dearest him that lives alas! away.

I am gall, I am heartburn. God's most deep decree
Bitter would have me taste: my taste was me;
Bones built in me, flesh filled, blood brimmed the curse.

Selfyeast of spirit a dull dough sours. I see
The lost are like this, and their scourge to be
As I am mine, their sweating selves; but worse.

Isn't it terrific? In a really painful powerful way. He's one of my favourites.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Do you know Hopkins" "The Windhover"? -- redcat, 16:02:17 06/15/02 Sat

When I saw Buffy fall into the light in The Gift that first time, this one of Hopkins sprang into my head:

I caught this morning morning's minion king-
dom of daylight dauphin, dapple-dawn-drawn Falcon, in his riding
Of the rolling level underneath him steady air, and striding
High there, how he rung upon the rein of a wimpling wing

In his ecstasy! Then off, off forth on swing,
As a skate's heel sweeps smooth on a bow-bend: the hurl and gliding
Rebuffed the big wind. My heart in hiding
Stirred for a bird, - the achieve of, the mastery of the thing!

Brute beauty and valor and act, oh, air, pride, plume, here
Buckle! AND the fire that breaks from thee then, a billion
Times told lovelier, more dangerous, O my chevalier!
No wonder of it: sheer plod makes plough down sillion
Shine, and blue-bleak embers, ah my dear,
Fall, gall themselves, and gash gold-vermillion.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Do you know Hopkins" "The Windhover"? -- Rahael, 16:33:02 06/15/02 Sat

Ooooh! I do know it, but hadn't thought to compare it with Buffy falling. It's working very well for me!

I love Hopkins - his ability to encapsulate the most complex and intense thoughts and feelings. He's especially good at capturing the lowest point of despair, and the highest point of ecstasy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hopkins' "The Windhover" and "The GIft" -- redcat, 18:03:51 06/15/02 Sat

The more I think about this poem, the more I see in it that I can relate to The Gift:

The Falcon, of course, is Buffy, the chevalier, whose dapple-dawn-drawn body is literally made
Dawn, and whose mastery, beauty and valor are matched only by her pride and her lovely danger.

"My heart in hiding" is us, the viewers. We watch in secret. The characters (with the single
exception of Buffy staring into the camera in her solo in OMWF) do not see us or indicate that
they know we are there.

The image of the plough that through "sheer plod" of down sillion, loamy earth, is made to
shine, seems to me an apt metaphor for Xander. His work with the Slayer has made him a
better man than one would have expected he would be, given his "base" upbringing. In that sense,
it is a metaphor for us, the viewers, as well. Like Xander, we are earth-bound, we do not have
the metaphorical "wings," the superstrength, of a Slayer.

And finally, the blue-bleak embers falling and gashing themselves open to show their gold-
vermillion centers I see working as a metaphor for Spike, who dropped, broken, to his knees at
the sight of Buffy's dead body at the base of the tower and is now, a year later, gashed open,
his inner light (soul) released/regained by his fall.

Any thoughts? Does this seem to make sense only because its so very long until October?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hopkins' "The Windhover" and "The GIft" -- Rahael, 19:31:39 06/15/02 Sat

Makes sense to me, though of course, I am highly caffeinated and sleep deprived!

Much thought stimulation.......I will return tomorrow with more comments. Perhaps even poetry quotage!

[> [> [> [> I'm not saying she has to spend time feeling guilty -- Anne, 18:02:04 06/15/02 Sat

I don't think Buffy has to spend time feeling guilty. I don't think she has to suffer. I do think she needs to admit her capacity to be a monster, which is what her relationship to Spike brought out in her, and what she has not faced. And I do think we have to see that she has the capacity not to behave like a monster to him, something we have not yet seen (and that doesn't mean being in a romantic or sexual relationship with him). And without that, I do not buy her epiphany as anything that can be more permanent than the three or four ones she had previously in the season.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not saying she has to spend time feeling guilty -- Rahael, 19:04:57 06/15/02 Sat

I see what you are trying to say.

I guess it comes down to how you interpret some of the scenes, particularly after Dead Things. I think she has admitted it. I think that Season 6 has been about flipping around the them/us, monster/human, alive/dead dichotomy, and the body of Buffy was the centre of this.

At the end of the day, perhaps it really does fall down to very personal perspectives on these two characters. I see more in Buffy's character than that which is always conveyed on the screen. I don't know if what I'm getting is what I'm supposed to be getting.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not saying she has to spend time feeling guilty -- Anne, 19:11:33 06/15/02 Sat

"I don't know if what I'm getting is what I'm supposed to be getting."

Me neither. Obviously, how the beginning of Season 7 plays out will tell us a lot more. Unfortunately, nothing to do now but chew over the remains of Season 6 . . .

[> [> [> [> [> permanent epiphany -- lulabel, 22:15:43 06/15/02 Sat

I agree with the general principle of what Anne is saying here. Anne stated in an earlier post that her choice of the word "earning" was perhaps not the best, because it implies that some sort of payment must be made. I think Anne's issue here has mostly to do with believability (sp?) of this particular epiphany (yeah, how many were there exactly?) For the most part, Buffy's problems since her resurrection have manifested themselves in the form of rampant denial. Denial of her suffering, denial of her relationship with Spike, denial of her over-all detachment, denial of the strain that she under from her responsibilites, etc, etc.

I have to agree that there is scant evidence that by the conclusion of "Grave" that Buffy has acknowledged the things that she is denying, which must be the first step in relinquishing them. Given the evidence that we have seen, there is no reason to expect that this "epiphany" would have more lasting effect than previous ones, other than the fact that we know it's the last episode of the season, so THIS epiphany must be an important one!

That being said, I also think there is something to be said for viewing this "epiphany" at the end of Grave as more a catharsis (Arethusa made this point earlier) It has a very similar quality to the scene from "Forever" when Buffy finally acknowledged to Dawn her pain over their mother's death, and they both cried in each other's arms. The sense in both of these cases is not so much arriving at some incredible realization, but of opening up her heart, allowing the feeling to flow, and to be shared.

[> [> [> [> [> Buffy, reconciling with her inner "monster" -- Just George, 11:03:15 06/16/02 Sun

I have been thinking of "on screen" actions that could help complete Buffy's arc in Season 6. One action that comes to mind is for Buffy to show remorse for her physical assaults on Spike, preferably before she knows he has his soul back.

Buffy has already apologized for "using" Spike in their relationship. By showing remorse for the physical assaults, Buffy would go part of the way toward reconciling with the inner "monster" we caught a glimpse of in Season 6.

BTW, Buffy's remorse would not have to be shown with an "on-screen" apology directly to Spike. It might occur in a discussion with a third character. Perhaps she could try explaining to Dawn the mistakes Buffy made in her relationship with Spike. The important thing for Buffy's advancement would be to show remorse before she has Spike's shiny new soul as an excuse.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Spike never complained about we? She has nothing additional to apologize for. -- The 1000th evil, 12:18:04 06/16/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> Re: Couldn't agree more -- dochawk, 18:33:02 06/15/02 Sat

Rah,

I agre with everythin iin your post, excpet that Buffy has said (as I statd above) that slaying does have a satisfactio (se The Prom fo instance, but I agree it isn't a saditic pleasue.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Couldn't agree more -- Rahael, 19:10:11 06/15/02 Sat

oh, maybe I didn't express myself very well. I said that Buffy did find 'satisfaction in a job well done.' I think she tries to guard from her slipping into Faith's satisfaction in the slaying.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Couldn't agree more -- dochawk, 12:24:26 06/16/02 Sun

Rah,

I think its more than job satisfacton. In te Prom,she compares slaying to comfort food. Wwhen faith asks ufy if she gets off on it, she doesn't disagree. I think their is a real primal pleasure(ecstasy something to that effect) to the slaying. And it makes sense from the prespective of the shamans who created slayers to make slaying as "desirable" as possible to a slayer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Couldn't agree more -- Rahael, 15:07:53 06/16/02 Sun

I think Buffy's struggled not to let that pleasure take control. She was worried in Season 5 that she was nothing more than a killer, that she took pleasure in the hunt. I think that question was resolved when she told Willow in the season finale that Willow would never understand what a Slayer was, that it was about more than power.

It's interesting to note that she has cut herself away from all kinds of emotion, including a prmitive pleasure in the kill. Perhaps intentionally?

We see the Slayers who let indulge in that pleasure - the First, and Faith. Buffy let's the Slayer adrenaline power her, but I think she is very careful about it, because it is so powerful, and perhaps, difficult to control. That's why she is so conscious of her duty.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Couldn't agree more -- lele, 16:09:25 06/16/02 Sun

"but I think she is very careful about it, because it is so powerful, and perhaps, difficult to control. That's why she is so conscious of her duty."

ITA. I also think is what makes her one of the greatest slayers(if not the greatest). She's aware of and experiences the pleasure of the kill and even uses slaying as an outlet for anger at regular life situations, but she's wary of and uncomfortable with her powers at the same. It makes her an appropriate choice for being the "chosen one."
I also agree that she shouldn't run around next season feeling guilty. All the characters have done some pretty bad things this season. Guilt alone isn't going to solve their problems. Besides, I'm ready for the return of 'quippy' BUFFY.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think we al agre and let' hear it for quipy Bufy -- dochawk, 17:01:44 06/16/02 Sun

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