June 2002 posts
IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- dingoes_ate_me, 06:47:08 06/10/02 Mon
basically that is my question, if buffy does end next year does anyone else think that they should end angel aswell?
dont get me wrong, i like both shows but in the 'final appocalypse' which has been mentioned in both shows, they are supposed to be together, he is supposed to save her and he becomes human( i think that is how it goes?). If he does become human then his story is kind of complete, seeing as that is why he is working for the powers
so i was hoping they do like a four part finale, with two parts on buffy and two parts on angel (kinda like the faith storyline which crossed over)
[> The magic number for syndication is 100... -- cjl, 07:59:23 06/10/02 Mon
Ideally, BUFFY and ANGEL should end together, with a humongous, 44-episode mega-crossover (with a single, big story involving both casts and locations) that would resolve all the major plotines and end in the aforementioned four-part group reunion/blowout. (Ideally, the big storyline might even cross over to RIPPER!)
But BUFFY and ANGEL are now on separate networks, and there still seems to be post-partum resentment on the part of the WB. (I'm not entirely sure they could stop Joss if he said, "Screw this. They're my shows, and I want to do cross-overs." But maybe Joss just doesn't want to provoke any more hostility.) The WB simply does not want to promote BUFFY, no matter how much it might help ANGEL. (Nose. Face. Spite. Just sayin'...)
Even if the network thing weren't a problem and Joss dropped the party line of "I think Angel is better off establishing itself as an independent series," there's the problem of syndication. To get a juicy syndication deal, you normally need 100 episodes. If Buffy ends after Season 7 and they Shanshu our favorite vampire at the end of Season 4, ANGEL will have 88 episodes in the can. That might be enough anyway, but I think Mutant Enemy would rather wait until after Season 5 for a better deal.
Finally, there's the simple fact that Joss doesn't want ANGEL to end after next season or Season 5. Everyone involved has said they'd love ANGEL to go at least seven. Joss is perfectly capable of closing out Buffy's story without involving the ANGEL cast. So even if Sarah Michelle Gellar agrees to Season 8 and they have a chance to send everyone out together, that doesn't mean Joss would automatically leap at the chance.
I'd like to see them go out together, but I don't think it'll happen.
A BUFFY movie?
[> [> Re: Although... -- LittleBit, 08:17:27 06/10/02 Mon
...if Buffy ends after S7, the cast would be available for guest spots on Angel.....Hmmmmm....
[> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- skeeve, 08:33:07 06/10/02 Mon
One way to handle it is to have different time rates on the series. Season 7 of Buffy could corresponds to seasons 4-7 on Angel.
Of course the series Angel wouldn't necessarily end when the individual Angel becomes human. Xander is a Scooby and he doesn't have any super-powers.
[> [> The series continues with a post-Shanshu Angel? Well... -- cjl, 09:15:21 06/10/02 Mon
"Tonight on the WB...ANGEL! He used to have all these cool vampire powers, and struggled for redemption--now, he's just like you and me, only with his own series! It's thrilling television! (No, really, trust us. He's still got the cool, sexy, black clothing and looks great fighting evil...")
[> [> [> Re: The series continues with a post-Shanshu Angel? Well... -- skeeve, 10:57:49 06/10/02 Mon
You are describing Maverick, not post-Shanshu Angel. Unless the big battle wipes supernatural evil from the face of the earth, post-Shanshu Angel can still involve supernatural battles. Maybe Angel will the watcher for both Buffy and Faith. How much time does Faith have left on her sentence? I see Fred as the resident witch. Even if Wesley is available, doing spells while angry is probably not a good idea.
The big battle might wipe supernatural evil off the face of Sunnydale. In that case, Buffy would move to LA to be with Angel. Craters don't make good homes.
[> Complications -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:48:40 06/10/02 Mon
I hope they don't! So far, I haven't had a chance to watch Angel, so a crossover finale would really dissapoint me. But I hope it does get into syndication after 5 seasons so I can see what I missed.
[> Fairly soon (on the time limits for humans playing immortals) -- Vickie, 09:33:55 06/10/02 Mon
Relatively soon, it will be laughable for David Boreanaz to play an undead, unchanging, immortal champion. He looks great, but the guy is maturing and that isn't likely to stop.
Same thing goes for James Marsters, though he seems to keep himself pretty strictly in shape and so might have greater longevity in his role. Nevertheless, Father Time will have the last word on both of them.
Assuming the shows last that long.
[> [> Re: Fairly soon (on the time limits for humans playing immortals) -- dubdub, 10:48:14 06/10/02 Mon
I thought so too, originally, but then I remembered the Master, ol' fruit-punchy-mouth. Obviously he did show the signs of age over time, so there's a little leeway for Angel, Spike, and Drusilla.
;o)
[> [> [> Angel with fruit-punch mouth? -- Vickie, 11:38:02 06/10/02 Mon
Can you really see either of our "hero-vampires) with the devolutionary makeup that The Master wore--or anything like it? I can't, but ME's surprise me before (a major reason to watch).
[> [> [> [> Re: Hey, Vickie!! (O/T) -- dubdub, 13:23:18 06/10/02 Mon
Wanted to let you know I've been feeling WAY better in the last week or so...could be normal recuperation or it could be Reiki energy...I'm betting on the latter!
Thanks!!
;o)
[> [> [> [> [> I'm glad you're doing well. -- Vickie, 13:25:20 06/10/02 Mon
[> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- yabyumpan, 10:42:21 06/10/02 Mon
I really,really hope not. I would be fun to have a high school reunion type crossover ep: you've got what! you slept with who! you're now a what!
But I'd love for Angel to carry on after Buffy. To realy stand on it's own. Yes, both shows have mentioned Armagedon, but as Holland said "there's always the next one" Angel could probably carry on for half a season at most after his Shanshu, if he does; it might be interesting to see him coping with being human (shades of IWRY)but it couldn't go any more than that. It would be like watching Buffy if she stoped being the Slayer.
[> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? -- Audrey, 13:49:20 06/10/02 Mon
"dont get me wrong, i like both shows but in the 'final appocalypse' which has been mentioned in both shows, they are supposed to be together, he is supposed to save her and he becomes human( i think that is how it goes?). If he does become human then his story is kind of complete, seeing as that is why he is working for the powers"
There's no guarantee it'll happen that way, tho, and considering how separate they've tried to make the shows... Let's just say that they've seen a bunch of Apocalyptic battles already, which means there are a bunch of potential Apocalypses in store, and they're not necessarily referring to the same ones... So yeah. Plus, there's speculation that Connor was Angel's shanshu and he'll never become human, and B/A seems to be a sunken ship, so yeah.
[> [> Re: IF BUFFY ENDS, SHOULD ANGEL? (spoileresque) -- O'Cailleagh, 16:47:15 06/10/02 Mon
Also, we have the fact that the prophecy didn't say anything about Angel, just 'the vampire with the soul'...don't we have 2 of those now?
In my opinion, Angel should not carry on without Buffy unless Buffy is not the Legendary Slayer referred to in Fray. If she is, then all supernatural beings will be removed from this plane, and that includes the nice ones!
Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Two -- LittleBit, 06:47:58 06/10/02 Mon
Evolution of Evil in the BuffyVerse from Simple Evil to Pogo, Part Two
[Preface: to avoid misunderstanding of the terms as I am choosing to use them, the Big Bad is the one who drives the season and the story arc; little bads are anyone/anything else, regardless of their degree of 'badness'.]
Season 2: Evil begins to grey and becomes personal.
The BIG BAD
In season 2 the Big Bad was Angelus. A vampire whose reputation for cruelty was legendary. The most vicious creature the Master ever met, and that's saying something. As Angelus, he has no conscience, no sense of much of anything other than the pleasure he derives from causing pain to others. And he is particularly adept at giving emotional and psychological pain. He prides himself on the artistry of it. He never surrounds himself with minions. While he does work with a small group of his family members, Drusilla, whom he sired, and Spike, who was sired by Drusilla, most of what he does is still accomplished on his own. He is alone when he finds Enyos, alone for Jenny; when he leaves the portraits, the fish, the roses he does so in solitude. Actual killing seems almost an afterthought. Perhaps he brings this from the wholesale annihilation of his family and home village: once they're dead, you can't get satisfaction from their reactions. He goes after the Scooby Gang but more to hurt Buffy who has made him feel emotions he despises, than against the Scoobies themselves. It is interesting to note that the only other Scooby he bothers with is Willow with whom he had developed, at the very least, a tentative friendship. He doesn't bother with Xander at all, even though he had an adversarial relationship with him at best. He does however, go after Enyos and Jenny directly, who are members of the clan that cursed him. They who could be seen as responsible for the century of torment he suffered. These two he killed in a spectacularly vicious manner, especially in the way with which he framed the discovery of each death. He looks for the greatest magnitude of destruction or pain he can bring. Quite a contrast to Angel. Angel had set himself squarely in opposition to everything Angelus embraces. He was growing in his ability to assist the Slayer and the Scooby Gang. He is beginning to open himself to emotions other than despair, self-loathing and tormented guilt. This very change, the one that allows him to redress the deeds of his past, to ease his pain, is the one that causes the return of the perpetrator of those deeds. The one thing Angel had in common with Angelus was Buffy. As Willow said, she was still the only thing he thought about. Souled or soulless, his strongest feelings were still reserved for her and her alone. While the season had its little bads there was through all of this the pervasive presence of Angelus, Spike and Drusilla. In the end, Buffy must accept Spike as an uneasy ally, and challenge Angelus in a final battle of Vampire vs. Slayer. And she slays, but the slaying turns intensely personal as Angelus gets his ultimate artistic revenge; she slays Angel.
VAMPIRES
Spike and Drusilla are the most notable of the little bads. It is they who initially challenge the Slayer in ways other vampires hadn't simply because they have a unique relationship and attitude toward themselves and their prey. They make excellent partners with Angelus, but stand effectively on their own as well. Spike removes the threat of the Anointed (or Annoying) one simply because he finds him, well, annoying, then takes over the leadership of the remaining vampires. The relationship between Spike and Drusilla shows the beginning of the graying of the evil. They are able to show affection for each other, which we were led to believe was not possible. They were found to "reek of humanity" by the Judge for their emotional connection. Spike is very much the opportunist, jumping the gun before the Night of St. Vigeus, going out into Ethan's chaos on Halloween, allowing Ford to set up the Lonely Ones Club for the kill, using Willy to capture Angel, using Buffy to regain Drusilla. Spike also shows qualities of a leader by delegating tasks to those who are competent to perform them, such as Dalton, who translates Du Lac's book of spells, and the Order of Taraka. But in counterpoint, many of his own schemes end up in failure simply because he cannot control his impulses or delay gratification. Drusilla is initially quite weak but the reports of her demise were greatly exaggerated. Her feyness adds a level to the insanity that makes her almost ethereal. It's easy to believe she was on the eve of taking vows - she retains an, albeit evil, spirituality. Drusilla shares with Angelus a talent for subtlety and a ruthlessness surpassed only by desire to create chaos. Her torture of Angel is superbly delicate, painful to both body and mind, yet always mindful of the need for Angel to remain alive. It is Drusilla who gives Dalton to the Judge; Dru who goes to the Magic Shop to find out what Jenny had purchased and kills the shopkeeper; Dru who obtains the tomb of Acathla, and kills the curator; Dru who goes to the High School library to get Giles and slays Kendra in the process. Her torture of Giles is exquisite; she invades and violates him in ways Angelus and Spike never even dreamed of. Drusilla enjoys the jealousy and rivalry generated between Spike and Angelus, and revels in exacerbating it whenever she can. Angelus joins her in this, the two of them tormenting Spike, who is in a wheelchair while recovering from the organ falling on him. The three of them make a truly unholy trio, each of them playing off the others, each trying to sow discord among the group, and by doing so sustain the balance of power within the group; Angelus over Drusilla over Spike, in a dysfunctional familial relationship.
There were also Absolom and Colin, the Anointed One, who furthered the Master's agenda, and tried to restore him. They needed the blood (and death) of everyone who was near the Master when he was killed, thus endangering Giles, Jenny, Cordelia and Willow. Although the Anointed One is now the Master of the Order of Aurelius, he needs Absolom and his eloquence to assist his leadership. His leadership is tenuous and based on his being the one prophesied. Their attempt to restore the Master was crucial to Buffy's ability to come to terms with her own death at the Master's hands.
The Gorch brothers came into town looking for some fun. Found something else. Lyle finds a Slayer and has the good sense to run, Tector finds the inside of the Bezoar. The interaction between the two of them is so immature that it is a wonder they have lasted so long. Perhaps there is a good-ole boy luck of the vampire in effect for them, at least until they get to Sunnydale. Their recognition of Angel as Angelus helps to give us more of a sense of Angelus' reputation.
DEMONS
Machida, the embodiment of greed, was the reason for the long line of successful Zeta Kappa alumni. He had corrupted generations who gained financial success through the sacrifice of innocent victims. He's fairly straightforward as demons go: give me the sacrifice I require at regular intervals and I will grant you your avaricious desires. Finally vanquished (with no help from the Guys!-Buffy!-Snake!-Basement!-Now! group), all of the granted wealth and power dissolves.
The Judge was one of the more potentially intriguing demons, ages old, defeated, dismembered, yet not dead, whose purpose is to "rid the Earth of the plague of humanity." Once re-assembled he had the ability to "separate the righteous from the wicked and to burn the righteous down." He would spare only those with no spark of humanity. The first victims he attempts are Spike and Drusilla because of their affection for each other, but this attempt is deflected by Spike, and he is then offered Dalton instead. The books describe him and the battle that finally contained him; "no weapon forged" could kill him. Only the technological advances of our time, and the sheer luck of Xander dressing as a soldier boy for Halloween, allow Buffy to defeat him by blowing him to bits with a rocket launcher. Seriously dismembered, but still not necessarily destroyed. The Judge very nearly rids us of Buffy and Angel, and the aftermath of that encounter returns Angelus to the scene. It is the Judge who gives us confirmation of two important points: the humanity within Spike and Drusilla, and the total lack of humanity within Angelus.
MONSTERS
Daryl Epps is revived by his brother in a horribly disfigured state. He is both unwilling to re-enter society looking like this (his pre-death self was defined by his looks and athletic & sexual prowess) and to shun society in solitude. He was able to convince his brother to provide him with a female companion. Daryl was a reluctant monster; he never asked for his continued existence but in light of its being thrust upon him didn't insist on having it reversed either. He crosses the line eventually into evil when he insists that the companion be finished regardless of what is necessary to do this successfully (the acquisition of a head that has not been embalmed, i.e. a fresh kill). Daryl is an example of the natural order regarding life and death and why it is dangerous to attempt to subvert it.
Ampata the Inca Mummy Girl only wanted a chance to live after being buried alive for half a century as a sacrifice for her people. She was entombed and buried alive never to die, retaining her consciousness and was able to hear what people were saying when she was 'touring.' In Ampata's case she was not necessarily a willing sacrifice, and wanted the chance to be a normal girl. Unfortunately, the only way she could live was to take the life of another: Rodney, the real Ampata, her guardian, attempts at both Jonathan and Willow. She does have some of the experiences she wants with Xander when they fall in love at first smite. He is instantly smitten; she wants this very much. She is stopped only because Buffy and Xander delay her long enough that the re-mummification weakens her so that she can't overpower Xander, whom she is ultimately willing to kill for her own survival. Buffy sees something of herself here in the way Ampata was used by her people for their own survival while being denied any chance at a normal existence for all eternity.
Ted - the (potential) ultimate evil step-parent, insinuates himself into Buffy's life and then makes clear his intent to control her. If he can't control her then he intends to remove her from her life to make room for him. Buffy's instincts about him were quite accurate from the beginning but no one believed that she wasn't acting from jealousy. All assumed that her issues with him were simply because her mother was dating him. His drugging of all but her (only because she was too stubborn to eat his treats) gave her no one to talk to who would believe her after Ted threatened her. But when Buffy believed she had killed him, she cooperated with the police, told the truth to them. Ted's world was controlled and orderly with nothing and no one out of line. His speech was archaic, pure 1950's, as were his attitudes. Ted was Buffy's first confrontation with the possibility that she could kill a human with her Slayer strength out of nothing more than anger. That Ted turned out to be a robot could, however, explain why she was able to do it; perhaps she did 'recognize' his non-humanity.
The Bezoars were another very pervasive evil for humans. With the exception of Xander, whose paternal instincts left everything to be desired, and Buffy, whose Slayer speed and strength kept her safe, the entire school population, staff, students and visitors, were taken over by the baby bezoars and set to work to free the mother. Willow and Cordelia took Xander and Buffy out of action by attacking them unexpectedly. Giles infects Joyce. The bezoars appeared to have a form of collective consciousness in that everyone is often carrying out the same tasks, yet when necessary the mother bezoar is able to communicate specific instructions to individuals. The bezoars are intriguing in that they weren't of demonic origin, but were organic, possibly indigenous, creatures who may have been mutated by the energy of the Hellmouth, or not. In this case, it could be argued that the humans were just as evil from the viewpoint of the bezoars.
Der Kinderstaad, one of the more frightening monsters, had been encountered by Buffy when she was quite young and her cousin, Celia, was in the hospital. Buffy had even watched it kill, but didn't know what she was seeing. Since he is discernible only when the victims are most vulnerable, Buffy must put herself at risk in order to see and defeat the child-killer. It is not clear what kind of monster the child-killer is other than clearly predatory. He feeds on the life-force of his victims, and apparently had determined to take the course of least resistance in doing so, which was a wise choice on his part. Although, children are not his only victims: he also removes adults who stand in his way or are in a position to reduce his ready energy source. When he faces the Slayer, sick though she is, he faces a strength he had never faced before; she still has the ability to defeat and destroy him. Buffy is able to face and destroy an old enemy that had defeated her when she was a child because she couldn't see what was happening and couldn't understand. This allows her to avenge her cousin and remove the threat to other children.
The Amphibian Monsters were created when the swim team 'over-dosed' on a fish DNA steroids and metamorphosed into mammal/fish hybrids which can function both in and out of the water (thus, amphibians). The swimmers who used the most were the first to change, but if nothing had stopped the process eventually all of them would have transformed, including the newest member of the team, Xander. In the 'tadpole' stage they are changing beneath the human skin, then achieve their mature form by breaking out of the confining form through the skin. They are predators (the DNA used could also be considered predator) and when fully transformed have only the instincts of the new form. They are not actually defeated, but allowed to go into the ocean. While they are all male, it should not be assumed that this means they cannot reproduce, especially with the mystical energy of the Hellmouth involved in their existence. Trying to obtain the championship without truly winning it, subverting the process that should be necessary to achieve the goal, when weighed against the consequences is shown to be a far greater price than putting in the effort required to gain it legitimately.
POSSESSION
Eyghon the Sleepwalker who returns to those who once summoned him and then attempted to kill him, including Giles. Ethan Rayne is back once again, as one of the group who, with Giles (Ripper), summoned Eyghon. The three others in the small group, five in all, have been dealt with. Eyghon possesses their dead bodies long enough to get to the next victim but hadn't found a suitable permanent host. The demon attempts permanent possession of Jenny and is thwarted by the unique and most likely unprecedented method of allowing two demons to fight it out for possession of a host; Angel threatens fatal damage to the host body (Jenny) causing the demon to jump to the nearest dead body: Angel. Eyghon lost the battle to a well-entrenched vampiric demon who was "Just waitin' for a good fight." Eyghon crumbles into dust. He wasn't a match for the demon in Angel. Eyghon forces Giles to reveal more of his past and his nature than he wished, but allowed a valuable insight inot his character.
The ghosts of James and Grace haunted the halls of Sunnydale High. They weren't seen in current times until the revival of the event that coincided with their deaths: the Sadie Hawkins Dance. Once again, James and Grace are fated to play out their tragic night. Only this time, Buffy becomes involved. She 'sees' the real events in bits and pieces. Things begin to happen in the school that do not reflect the replaying of the murder/suicide. These happenings are of the sort that literally call for the intervention of the Slayer. It is actually not clear which of them is responsible for this. It is generally believed that James was responsible, but a case could be made for Grace doing this. It is Grace who wants to forgive James, to relieve his pain, to allow him to move on. For this to happen she needs the Slayer and the Vampire. She needs to block Willow's spell because binding James would only result in stasis. She surrounds the school with an impassable barrier (thus also preventing more innocent victims) that will allow only Buffy and Angel to pass. The roles are reversed. This is no longer an inevitable re-enactment. Buffy/James 'kills' Angel/Grace, but Angel cannot be killed by gunshot, thus freeing Grace to intervene at last and end the cycle. It is Buffy who recognizes why the two are still bound to the school, and in her comment that James' act does not deserve forgiveness, she reveals how she feels about herself in relation to Angel/Angelus. When James uses her as his representative and she experiences Grace's love and forgiveness and the release of the anger and hurt that tied them here, she is give a beginning to forgiving herself for Angelus, a realization that Angel would forgive her.
The Order of Taraka is a mix of demons and humans who are bounty hunters. They hire out as assassins and don't stop until the job is complete. If the ones originally assigned to the job fail, others simply come in their place until the task is successfully completed. They exhibit a complete disregard for anything other than completion of their mission. The demons involved in the Order are a much more sophisticated variety, far above see-kill-eat. The humans who join are also of a particular type; willing to hunt and kill other humans for a price, possibly just for the satisfaction of getting the job done. The rules are simple: do whatever it takes. The consequences are equally direct: if you succeed, you live, if you don't, you're already dead. For some the simplicity of this has it's attraction. It is not clear why they were called off, unless perhaps finances played into it. In the confrontations with the Order, we find Angel learning that Buffy has completely accepted his vampiric side, Buffy and Kendra working together with a common agenda, and Xander and Cordelia discovering that they don't exactly hate each other.
HUMANS
Chris Epps and Eric, the Doctors Frankenstein of Sunnydale, have revived Chris' brother Daryl and are now assembling a female companion for him from parts of dead girls. They encounter a problem however in the necessity of acquiring a head, with no fresh death in sight and time running out. Chris balks at
killing someone but Eric moves blithely along by showing Daryl pictures of Cordelia, Buffy and Willow for Daryl to pick his favorite. Chris is unable to carry out the abduction and assists Buffy in saving Cordelia. Eric, however, sees only his own agenda, which happens to coincide with Daryl's. He wants to create the girl of his/Daryl's dreams just to see if he can. In the end, we don't really know what happens to them except that Chris and Eric both survived. We find that while the two worked together on the same project with the same outcome in mind, their motivations were polar opposites: Chris did it out of love for his brother; Eric did it because he could, out of contempt for those who couldn't.
The Zeta Kappa Frat boys, and all their esteemed alumni, were a long-standing evil. For at least half a century they had consorted with the demon Machida to bring them fortune and power without effort. They were wealthy, charming and lethal. No conscience bothered any of them regarding what was necessary to continue their success. They corrupted generation after generation, each succeeding class indoctrinating the next. They show us how shallow and insubstantial these things are in the absence of any real effort; and also give Cordelia her start into becoming someone of more substance.
Ethan Rayne is more of an enigma. It is not only unclear exactly what power he is invoking (Janus the Roman God? Chaos?), but what his purpose is. He wreaks havoc among those who wear his costumes. They become what they are dressed as in mind and body. Their physical and mental abilities are completely altered. But Ethan remains in the back room of his store taking no advantage of the chaos he has brought forth, unless his purpose was to see what would happen. Being beaten into submission by Rupert (Ripper) Giles was not likely what he had in mind. In some ways this is some of the purest evil we've seen - bringing chaos forth just to see what it would do. When trying to avoid Eyghon, his motives are much clearer: remove the mark from himself and place it on someone else. This is an act of self-preservation by finding a substitute target, since Eyghon is drawn by the Mark, not by the bearer. In the ensuing chaos, Ethan, being no fool, runs. Ethan continues to give us insights into Giles' background and character that the self-effacing Watcher/librarian wouldn't ordinarily divulge.
Billy Fordham wanted to become a vampire so he won't completely die. To achieve this he was prepared to set up a group a innocent fools to be killed while he arranged that he alone would be turned. Ford was Buffy's crush in 5th grade and obviously a friend who knew her fairly well. He is both sympathetic and villainous at the same time. One can understand why he wants what he does, but not that he's willing to bring so many sacrificial lambs to the slaughter in order to gain it. It's not entirely clear why he didn't just have the blonde vampire turn him in return for not staking her, instead of just making her tell him where he could find the vampires lair. In allowing her to go free, he is also indirectly responsible for Drusilla's recovery, as it is the book she takes from the library that contains the ritual to restore Dru's strength. It may be that he's so drawn to the tradition that he has to have his ritual, must be turned by the leader, must have all the right things said. And in the end, he gets what he wants and the Slayer is waiting. Billy's case is particularly sad because we can understand his despair, his desire to have a life to live. What we, and Buffy, can't forgive is his willingness to have so many other die for him to survive.
Cain the hunter, hunted for sport and profit. Having been prohibited from hunting elephants he turned to an entirely unprotected species for which he found a lucrative market. He has no doubts about what he does; for him it's a job that satisfies him. He rationalizes killing the human aspect of the werewolf in several ways: only killing while it is in wolf form (although granted - no pelt in human form), killing the werewolf prevents it from making future kills (death penalty versus imprisonment), they are animals and therefore subject to his whims. He is not defeated in the end, nor does he learn anything (except maybe not to underestimate little girls); he simply has to take his predations to a different venue. Cain is a villain with no moral code, no ethics, no compassion, who hunts because he's good at it, with no regard for the rules unless they impact the market for his kills.
Coach Marin wants success so badly that he is willing to achieve it regardless of the cost. He has managed to produce a 'steroid' that will enhance his swim team's performance in the pool. He uses his boys as alpha test subjects, with or without their permission. When it becomes clear that there are 'serious side effects' he ignores them. As the boys metamorphose one by one, his only real concern is that he's having trouble fielding enough swimmers to have a competitive team. He still 'takes care' of his changed boys by feeding them and providing for other needs when possible. He has absolutely no conscience regarding his actions with the boys, or those he's willing to take to keep his activities unchallenged. He murders the school nurse, he tries to do so to Buffy, and is willing to take out Xander, but Xander is ready for him. He is finally killed by his own 'boys' when he swings at a rescued Buffy and falls into the water after she trips him; the amphibian monsters attack and kill him.
Willy is the stereotype of the show. Opportunist, sneak, squealer, stooge. He's always on the lookout for the best deal, and would cross, double-cross and triple-cross anyone for the right price. He professes his loyalty, exudes his fear, but both of these are only of the moment, and when the next chance comes by, the circumstances alter to fit it. He provides a hangout for the (H)ST's of Sunnydale, but doesn't exclude humans. The only rule at Willy's seems to be "don't do your fighting in here."
And of course, Principal Snyder, who just won't go away. He's more active this season, involving himself with Buffy the delinquent and her gang of ne'er-do-wells. He's more directly related to causing harm to others. In School Hard, it is at his instigation that the window is opened and one life lost. If he had not insisted that Buffy 'volunteer' for the Halloween safety program, she might have been able to prevent some of the damage caused. He encouraged Coach Marin to continue his enhancement program so he could brag at the principals' meetings and required Willow to give a passing grade to one of the swimmers so he would remain eligible. And not to forget his statement to the police when they arrest Buffy at the scene of Kendra's death, and his expelling of her in the final episode. It is this season when we learn of his purpose at the school and his involvement with the mayor. We learn that he, and the police, know about the Hellmouth.
And the other bads of this season in BBB and Phases - Buffy's friends, Oz, Xander, Amy, even Giles. In these episodes, the damage that was done was unintentional. In Oz's case it was, as much as can ever be, innocent damage. And only because he takes two whole days to figure out that the werewolf might be him, after his cousin Jordy, who doesn't like to be tickled, bit him. He tries to restrain himself for the third night but is unintentionally prevented by Willow. He then willingly submits to being caged for the safety of others during his change. Xander's case is different. He intends harm, just not the harm that results. Amy is brought into Xander's plan by blackmail, but what is the subject of the blackmail? Casual use of witchcraft for personal gain. Xander wants revenge. Thank the heavens there wasn't a male vengeance demon wandering around Sunnydale at the time. Amy submits to the blackmail rather than recognize that what she was doing, casual magic for her own benefit, was wrong. Amy also doesn't hesitate to use transformation, once successfully, once prevented, against those she saw as rivals. Giles was one of the group who summoned Eyghon and then created more problems by trying to keep the group out of it. If he had told Buffy what was happening, the group might have been more prepared when they were attacked in the library; if he had told them more about Ethan, Buffy might have had more caution in dealing with him. But to do so he would have had to reveal parts of his past that no longer fit with his perception of himself as he is now: the Watcher, the keeper of the knowledge, the sage.
The evil faced in season 2 is less black and white. This time, there are still the vampires, monsters, demons, possession and evil humans. But another layer is added. This time it's personal. Angel becomes Angelus; now we have a Big Bad whose motives are examined. Buffy and Angel are used to exorcise the HS ghosts and their personal relationship is reflected cruelly. Two schoolmates, one of whom is a friend of Willow's, attempt the murder of Cordelia to create a Bride of Frankenstein. Billy Fordham was a crush of Buffy's in fifth grade who is now willing to sacrifice others to ensure his longevity. Giles' past comes back to endanger them all when he is unwilling to share it. Ted is romancing her mother, and insinuating himself into her home life. The frat boys present themselves as friendly college boys who are interested in Cordelia and Buffy, neither of whom find this unlikely, then become dates from hell. Amy is a friend of theirs. Oz is beginning to develop a romance with Willow, and is, of them all, the one who most takes responsibility for himself. Xander betrayed them all with his desire for revenge on Cordelia. Willow and Cordelia appear to turn on Buffy and Xander when they are under the influence of the Bezoars. Most of the swim team, including someone she went out with, turned into monsters. Machida, Daryl Epps, the amphibian monsters and Eyghon were brought to Sunnydale through human machination. Even Buffy's mother is taken aback when she learns that Buffy is the Slayer and slow to adjust to the significance of the calling. The evil faced this season is most significant. It is not clear cut. It forces the Slayer and the Watcher as well as the Scoobies to reassess their vision of evil, since it now includes themselves, as well as demons who show humanity. In the end, Buffy is reft and bereft; not welcome at home, expelled from school; not knowing how Angel had returned, knowing only that she had sent him into hell. Again, the ultimate revenge for Angelus: no weapons, no friends, no hope. In the end, just Buffy.
Your feedback is welcomed!
[> Another excellent tour through the world of evil... -- cjl, 07:21:09 06/10/02 Mon
Two comments: one, summarizing all her evil deeds in one place gives me a new appreciation of Drusilla; and two--Angelus definitely did "go after" Xander. In "BB&B" he yanked him out of Buffy's bedroom window and was going to chow down until the spell-struck Drusilla intervened. He enjoyed getting in Xander's face, too; the confrontation outside Buffy's hospital room in "Killed By Death" showed Angelus very much aware of Xander's feelings for Buffy and also showed how much he enjoyed reminding Xander how these feelings were never returned.
[> [> Re: Another excellent tour through the world of evil... -- LittleBit, 08:13:43 06/10/02 Mon
You're right about his attack on Xander in BBB (for some reason I keep forgetting that the guys weren't under the spell). While he does attack Xander, he initially wants to know where Buffy is, then realizes that Xander is the psychologically better victim for Buffy's valentine present. He never actually goes looking for Xander the way he does Buffy and Willow, which may be whay I left it out (along with the BBB mental block). ;-)
[> so enjoying your posts! Are these being collected somewhere? -- ponygirl, 07:39:04 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Only here and on my hard drive! ;) -- LittleBit, 08:23:05 06/10/02 Mon
[> Great Evaluation, but what's Pogo? -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:43:01 06/10/02 Mon
I like these posts you're putting up. You are right in how simple the evil in Season 1 is, and how it grows more complex with time. I've also noticed that, as the show goes on, vampires become less common and demon's more so.
But I'm still wondering: WHAT'S POGO?
[> [> Re: Great Evaluation, but what's Pogo? -- LittleBit, 08:49:03 06/10/02 Mon
Pogo was a comic strip written by Walt Kelly. The most famous and fairly oft-quoted line was: "We have met the enemy and he is us." A good summing up of season 6.
Want to play a game? -- Ronia, 07:37:02 06/10/02 Mon
This is not all my idea, to be honest I came here expecting this to be posted already. However, it isn't. So I'll just have to do it myself.
We (some chat folk and I ) thought it would be fun to while away the summer boredom with a Buffy inspired game. It goes like this, people post haiku's that are specific to episodes of buffy and angel. Then everyone else get's to try and guess which episode it is from.
For example: Knife through father's hand/that should do the trick for her/ my dark angel love...
Answer: what's my line 2
We tested it to be sure that it was fun...feeling the creative juices flowing? Get your game face on and post..be sure to try your Buffy/Angel trivia knowledge by answering all the haiku's so this thread will have a long and happy life. Enjoy!
[> Re: Yes, please! -- LittleBit, 07:50:58 06/10/02 Mon
Ronia - like you I couldn't get on the board yesterday (I think Voy's server was down) or it would have gone up. I even have a (painful) startup haiku for the game:
hiatus is here
episode summary game
poems like sneezes
(ow!)
Anyway: here's one from me:
eternally bound
love and guilt will hold us close
reversal frees us
[> [> The answer is... -- Belladonna, 08:24:14 06/10/02 Mon
"I Only Have Eyes for You." Right? :)
[> [> [> Re: The answer is... (don't look if you don;t want to know!) -- LittleBit, 08:30:24 06/10/02 Mon
Right! :)
[> Re: Haiku game -- Brian, 07:53:13 06/10/02 Mon
Sulfer smell makes a stink.
Scrambled friends betray, can't think.
Buffy axes the offending link.
[> [> Re: Haiku game -- Ronia, 08:27:34 06/10/02 Mon
Bad eggs?
[> [> [> Re: Haiku game - Ronia, right you are -- Brian, 09:08:46 06/10/02 Mon
[> A very poor attempt at poetry. -- JCC, 07:56:16 06/10/02 Mon
feeling down and out,
chasing when you get a poke,
into a new world.
There it is: my ridiculous attempt at a haiku. Go on, guess. Answer is below.
Normal Again.
[> [> Re: A very poor attempt at poetry. -- Ronia, 08:25:36 06/10/02 Mon
whoops, you aren't supposed to post the answer...I must have written my post poorly...the answer's are supposed to be guesses from other posters..we will have awards for the best haiku's. We haven't figured out what the categories will be yet..so shush..no giving answers away! ;-D
[> Here's a nice easy one... -- GreatRewards, 08:28:00 06/10/02 Mon
Vamp Willow took charge
Gang did terrorize the Bronze
Willow said "Bored now."
[> [> Re: Here's a nice easy one... -- Ronia, 08:31:43 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: The wish?
[> [> Re: Here's a nice easy one... -- Deeva, 08:39:01 06/10/02 Mon
Doppelgangland! Right?!?!
[> [> [> Correct! -- GreatRewards, 08:42:05 06/10/02 Mon
[> Re: Haiku game -- LittleBit, 08:39:31 06/10/02 Mon
and one more:
that which was is now
strength is forged in pain and grief
the burden too great
[> [> Re: Haiku game -- Ronia, 08:42:13 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: The weight of the world? Good one LB! Really a stumper!
[> [> [> Re: Haiku game -- LittleBit, 08:52:11 06/10/02 Mon
Not The Weight of the World (and this is less obscure than my first version, lol :))
[> [> Re: Haiku game -- Ete, 09:32:24 06/10/02 Mon
Becoming ?
[> [> [> Re: Haiku game -- LittleBit, 09:59:29 06/10/02 Mon
part two, :)
[> Here's another one. -- GreatRewards, 08:43:24 06/10/02 Mon
Buffy getting laid
House tries to kill Buffy's friends
Buff can't get enough!
[> [> Where the Wild Things Are -- Deeva, 09:06:11 06/10/02 Mon
[> And Another. -- GreatRewards, 08:50:07 06/10/02 Mon
Scoobies save the world.
Xander saves the Scooby Gang.
"I Like the quiet."
[> [> Re: And Another. -- Ronia, 09:01:53 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: The Zeppo?
[> [> [> correct. -- GreatRewards, 09:11:53 06/10/02 Mon
[> OK. I'll bite. Here's my paltry offering. -- Deeva, 09:03:20 06/10/02 Mon
It's been awhile since I've done this, the last time was elementary school, must've been 8 years old at the time. I think it's an easy one to guess.
Hands held reverence
Consequences uttered first
Existing and not
What say you? Major suckage or not half bad?
[> [> Very good! -- Rob, 09:10:06 06/10/02 Mon
Umm..."Blood Ties"?
Rob
[> [> [> Thanks Rob! And take another guess. -- Deeva ;o), 09:11:34 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> No Place Like Home? -- GreatRewards, 09:29:42 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Nope. OK, I guess I was a mite cryptic. Here's clue: It's not Season 5. -- Deeva, 09:34:22 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> I Know! I know! -- Isabel, 06:07:51 06/11/02 Tue
Primeval!!!
[> [> [> [> [> Oh Poop! Not only didn't I see the answer below, I got it wrong. :( -- Isabel, 06:12:13 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> That's ok. -- Deeva, 10:34:32 06/11/02 Tue
It was a hard thread to follow. But thanks for joining in on the fun! Heh-heh you said poop!
[> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- Brian, 09:33:17 06/10/02 Mon
New world, but no escape.
New friends so stunned they must gape.
One dies with pierced nape.
Deep, dark, ancient lair.
Stirs one to rise, so very rare.
Stopped by Buffy's flair.
[> [> [> The Wish? -- Deeva, 09:37:48 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> Re: The Wish? Nope -- Brian, 09:53:00 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- Ronia, 09:54:19 06/10/02 Mon
Prophecy girl?
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- LittleBit, 09:55:10 06/10/02 Mon
Dopplegangland & Band Candy?
[> [> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering Nope & Nope -- Brian, 09:59:29 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- LittleBit, 10:02:58 06/10/02 Mon
Welcome to the Hellmouth & Prophecy Girl?
[> [> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering - LittleBit, you're half way there -- Brian, 10:04:26 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit, you're half way there - Yay 1/2me! one more try... -- LittleBit, 10:17:08 06/10/02 Mon
The Harvest & Prophecy Girl?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit, you're half way there - wrong half -- Brian, 11:12:58 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit, you're half way there - wrong half LOL!!! once more -- LittleBit, 12:19:38 06/10/02 Mon
Welcome to the Hellmouth & the Harvest?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: LittleBit - You score! -- Brian, 12:26:41 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering -- SugarTherapy, 11:41:20 06/10/02 Mon
Welcome to the Hellmouth & The Harvest!
[> [> [> [> Re: Another Haiku offering - Yup! -- Brian, 12:28:29 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Umm...Becoming? -- Rob, 09:39:01 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Primeval? -- LittleBit, 09:39:11 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> It's not either of those seasons, Rob & LB. -- Deeva, 09:44:46 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> Grr aargh! I'm sooo close to giving up!! Is it "After Life"? -- Rob, 09:50:44 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> WINNER!!!! See, aren't you glad you didn't give up? I still gotta figure your's out. -- Deeva, 10:14:12 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yay!!! :oD :oD Oh, and if you want a little clue for mine... -- Rob, 10:19:38 06/10/02 Mon
It's from one of the first three seasons.
Oh, and it's not as cryptic as it sounds...It's actually quite literal. I just wrote it in a way that it sounds cryptic. If that makes sense.
Rob
[> [> Amends -- LittleBit, 09:52:36 06/10/02 Mon
[> My turn! -- Rob, 09:17:11 06/10/02 Mon
Darkness lurks beneath;
Uncharacteristically
Dressed; undead but not.
Any guesses?
Rob
[> [> Oooh, this was hard. -- Deeva, 09:30:10 06/10/02 Mon
Umm...Prophesy Girl?
[> [> [> Nope! And I'm still trying to figure yours out!! -- Rob, 09:33:32 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: My turn! -- LittleBit, 10:21:34 06/10/02 Mon
Halloween?
[> [> [> Yup, YOU'RE RIGHT!! -- Rob, 10:26:07 06/10/02 Mon
It's all about Willow...the "darkness lurks beneath"
And then she's "uncharacteristically dressed"...in the skanky clothes.
And she's undead, as a ghost, but she's not really a ghost...thus "undead but not".
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Yay me! And another one... -- LittleBit, 10:31:45 06/10/02 Mon
containing the rage
this is not a fairy tale
soothe the savage breast
[> [> [> [> [> Beauty and the Beasts? -- Rahael, 10:47:39 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Beauty and the Beasts? -- LittleBit, 11:06:37 06/10/02 Mon
Yes!!! :D
[> Here'a a HARD one.. -- GreatRewards, 10:07:30 06/10/02 Mon
Four becoming one.
Power beyond all power.
'First' man is now dead.
[> [> Primeaval -- Rahael, 10:14:13 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> hmm.... guess it wasn't so hard, after all. CORRECT! -- GreatRewards, 10:28:33 06/10/02 Mon
[> OK. This one's either gonna be real HARD or real EASY! -- GreatRewards, 10:44:45 06/10/02 Mon
Willow asks of Buffy:
"Of the two people here, which
is the boss of me?"
[> [> Wrecked? -- Rob, 10:50:04 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Choices -- Rahael, 10:50:25 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Well done! Correct! -- GreatRewards, 11:48:39 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Two to Go? -- Deeva, 11:03:05 06/10/02 Mon
[> I think this one's gonna be hard... -- Rob, 10:57:37 06/10/02 Mon
Pretty songs can lead
To Hell. Once they're over, the
Darkness captures all.
Rob
[> [> HINT: It's not OMWF -- Rob, 10:58:40 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Here's another -- JCC, 11:09:45 06/10/02 Mon
Betraying Slayer,
a dark shroud lights the mansion,
a fake evil vamp.
[> [> [> [> Re: Here's another -- Rahael, 11:15:59 06/10/02 Mon
Enemies
[> [> [> [> Buffy vs. Dracula -- Ete, 00:05:21 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Tabula Rasa? -- Deeva, 11:04:41 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Here's 3. See can you guess them. -- JCC, 11:28:49 06/10/02 Mon
1)
Not to wake nor sleep,
A friend from another time,
or an enemy.
2)- (This could be taken as 1 of 2 episodes)
A human demon,
changed in a horrible time,
abandoned and found.
3)
One perfect moment,
ruined by caring too much,
It was not too late
[> [> [> [> Here is the answer to my 3 haikus above -- JCC, 12:10:58 06/10/02 Mon
Seeing as no ones guessing
1)
Not to wake nor sleep,
A friend from another time,
or an enemy.
2)- (This could be taken as 1 of 2 episodes)
A human demon,
changed in a horrible time,
abandoned and found.
3)
One perfect moment,
ruined by caring too much,
It was not too late
1Restless
2Entropy or hells bells
3The Prom
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Here is the answer to my 3 haikus above -- Deeva, 12:14:22 06/10/02 Mon
I couldn't even begin to guess which one's they were! Very good.
[> [> [> Nope...but I can see where you're going with that. It's not from the 6th season. -- Rob, 11:33:27 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> The answer to my above haiku is... -- Rob, 12:47:43 06/10/02 Mon
Hush.
"Pretty songs can lead to Hell."--that refers to the song the girl sings in Buffy's dream at the beginning: "Can't call for Mom/Can't say a word/You're gonna die screaming, but you won't be heard..."
"Once they're over,/Darkness captures all..."
After the song (and by implications, all the sounds) are done, the darkness captures people, in the form of the Gentlemen.
I tried to be deliberately misleading with the "singing" reference. Hope it wasn't too hard!
Rob
[> [> [> VERY misleading. My boss was wondering what I was pondering over! -- Deeva, 12:58:12 06/10/02 Mon
[> Request: Please don't put guesses in subject line? -- snuffynelson, 11:13:40 06/10/02 Mon
This game is wonderful, but I already know the answer before I look at the haiku...
[> My try #2! -- Deeva, 11:22:29 06/10/02 Mon
Bicker like children
Grieve over the one who left her
Unexpected love looms
Guys, I'm like getting zero work done. This is a way cool game!
[> [> Re: My try #2! -- Jane's Addiction, 11:29:42 06/10/02 Mon
Hmmm ... "Something Blue"?
[> [> [> That's it! -- Deeva, 11:37:55 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: My try #2! -- Ronia, 11:31:06 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: Triangle?
[> Haiku for you! -- Deeva, 11:50:48 06/10/02 Mon
Three are the loves
Two are the keys to fame
One burns bright
[> [> No takers? Shall I answer it? -- Deeva, 12:59:52 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: No takers? Shall I answer it? -- Ronia, 13:11:37 06/10/02 Mon
No! not yet...I'm just busy, or I'd be on it...the hard ones are the most fun...
[> [> [> [> Aww, thanks Ronia. I'll wait. -- Deeva, 14:04:57 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: No takers? Shall I answer it? -- Rahael with a little help from Neaux, 15:49:34 06/10/02 Mon
"Fool for Love"
[> [> [> [> That's it! Yay! -- Deeva, 16:45:56 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Wow, very good one ! -- Ete, 00:09:47 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Is it... -- Rob, 13:17:11 06/10/02 Mon
...Superstar?
Rob
[> [> [> Nope. -- Deeva, 14:03:09 06/10/02 Mon
[> Haikus scare me. Here's a dirty limerick -- neaux, 11:58:31 06/10/02 Mon
There once was a phantom named Dennis,
Who was well known for spying Cordy's Paris, Milan and Venice,
Not to be misconstrued as a perv.
He was well liked for his serve,
and has not been seen in a red hot minute.
[> [> Very dirty non-Buffy-related limerick -- Rob, 12:04:30 06/10/02 Mon
There once was an odious brute
Who made love in his Sunday-best suit.
The result, as you'd guess,
Was a wet, sticky mess,
And a very chafed maiden to boot.
:P
Rob
[> [> Re: Haikus scare me. Here's a dirty limerick -- Ronia, 12:05:59 06/10/02 Mon
No limericks 'till St. Patricks day! We can do a limerick version of the game then if you want. Is it a date? ;-D
[> [> [> new haiku -- Ronia, 12:21:14 06/10/02 Mon
Run fast little girl
He has been a red herring
Late! They are fallen
[> [> [> [> Re: new haiku ... and one for you -- LittleBit, 12:25:52 06/10/02 Mon
Becoming part 1?
the new horizon
challenges and adventure
fear paralyzes
[> [> [> [> [> Re: new haiku ... and one for you -- Ronia, 12:35:49 06/10/02 Mon
You are correct!
Now I have to work
I really would rather shirk
Maybe chat tonight?
(Ronia still may have to lurk.)
[> [> [> Back to Haiku -- Brian, 12:25:19 06/10/02 Mon
Formal Frenzy bad.
Scoobies try to go cool rad.
Now is Buffy glad.
[> [> [> [> Another cryptic haiku -- JCC, 12:34:36 06/10/02 Mon
I'm really getting in to this.
A blond mystery,
Revelations close to home,
To protect the one.
Maybe Liq could put all the haiku's we've done on the Existential Scoobies site. There is some good ones in the list.
[> [> [> [> [> Go money Go! -- Ronia, 12:55:06 06/10/02 Mon
Envisioning a commercial version of this game!
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another cryptic haiku -- Jane's Addiction, 16:02:03 06/10/02 Mon
"No Place Like Home"?
[> [> [> [> [> I agree, there are some very good ones here. -- Deeva, 21:26:54 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> Re: Back to Haiku -- SugarTherapy, 13:35:30 06/10/02 Mon
The Prom?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Back to Haiku - You got it in one! -- Brian, 13:53:48 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- Brian, 14:05:33 06/10/02 Mon
No one takes the blame;
Life is hard, broken, and lame.
Buffy speaks her name.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! and another -- JCC, 14:26:12 06/10/02 Mon
Consequences??
The clowns up to tricks,
A missing link is nowhere,
and up to mischief.
Well?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! and another - Nope! -- Brian, 14:41:50 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- Deeva, 14:48:02 06/10/02 Mon
Tabula Rasa?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- Rahael, 14:56:16 06/10/02 Mon
Bargaining Part II
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! -- redcat, 17:27:02 06/10/02 Mon
"Anne" -?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And yet another for your fun! - Redcat, you're a winner! -- Brian, 19:08:50 06/10/02 Mon
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- collinwood, 14:29:07 06/10/02 Mon
Since I was in the original chat, I thought I should post my (easy to guess) haiku.
1)Leperous hobbits serve
Mimosas in the tub
To a skanky goddess
2)Kiss beneath the stairs
Why is this happening now?
Who am I to her?
3)Snake eats the weasel
Darkness and chaos prevail
Fire cleanses the scene
(collinwood)
P.S. LittleBit and Ronia...thanks for getting this started. It is fun!
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Ronia, 14:49:14 06/10/02 Mon
Don't forget Julia and Agent, and Vickie...is that everyone?
[> [> Not as easy as you'd think! -- GreatRewards, 15:28:52 06/10/02 Mon
1) Tough Love
2) Hmmm... so many kissing scenes... which one... Tabula Rasa?
3) Graduation Day (part 2)
[> [> [> Re: Not as easy as you'd think! -- collinwood, 17:34:15 06/10/02 Mon
You got it in one, Great Rewards!
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- SugarTherapy, 16:07:53 06/10/02 Mon
is #2 Older & Far Away?
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Deeva, 16:51:38 06/10/02 Mon
1. Dunno
2. Tabula Rasa
3. Graduation pt 2
[> Re: Simple Haiku -- cat, 14:51:59 06/10/02 Mon
A diffrent slayer.
Out of history's cold dead past.
Wreaks havoc to feel.
[> [> Re: Simple Haiku -- rc, 19:37:59 06/10/02 Mon
Primeval - ?
[> [> [> Re: Simple Haiku -- Ete, 12:38:07 06/11/02 Tue
Or Restless ?
[> OK here's another one. -- Deeva, 14:53:45 06/10/02 Mon
Parting at the steps
At the heartfelt confession
Leap of love and trust
This is becoming addictive! I should stop! Mmmm...nah!
[> [> Can you give a hint? Wink wink. -- Rob, 22:00:22 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> The hint is in the third line! *nudge, nudge. wink, wink* -- Deeva ;o), 08:40:42 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re: The hint is in the third line! *nudge, nudge. wink, wink* -- LittleBit, 09:10:00 06/11/02 Tue
The Gift
[> [> [> [> [> Indeed it is, LittleBit! -- Deeva, 09:40:06 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: OK here's another one. -- Ete, 00:18:58 06/11/02 Tue
OMWF ?
[> [> Re: OK here's another one. -- Brian, 04:09:58 06/11/02 Tue
Becomming part 1
[> here are my efforts -- julia, 16:57:26 06/10/02 Mon
willow flayed warren
she's off the wagon again
bad willow bad witch
spike is so cool and
i mean the girl is hot too
andrew butt monkey
black leather coat swirls
cigarette cherry glows bright
out for a walk bitch
the sky is falling
another apocolypse
tuesday chez buffy
[> [> Re: here are my efforts -- rc, 19:45:22 06/10/02 Mon
Grave
Entropy
I can SEE Spike saying that line as he counts teh words off on his fingers under B's front yard tree, but can't think of thne ep name......
OMWF
[> [> [> oops! -- rc, 20:06:13 06/10/02 Mon
Two to Go (not Grave)
Entropy
same still-un-named ep as before
OMWF
[> [> [> [> No Place Like Home :) -- Ete, 00:20:23 06/11/02 Tue
[> I wanna play too! -- O'Cailleagh, 18:19:37 06/10/02 Mon
Okay, so I've never written a haiku before and am not at all familiar with them, but it looks fun! (I am, however, known for my Extremely Bad Poetry...its a talent!)
'a scary amount of computer sessions
could this lead to their possession?
(for me this ep's a big obsession!)'
Not especially haiku-y, but it popped into my head all sudden like.......
[> [> Re: I wanna play too! -- Rob, 18:23:59 06/10/02 Mon
I Robot, You Jane?
Rob
[> [> Re: I wanna play too! -- Ronia, 18:38:55 06/10/02 Mon
Answer: I robot, you jane?
[> [> [> yep, both right! -- O'Cailleagh, 06:49:40 06/11/02 Tue
[> This IS addictive! Here's my latest contribution... -- Rob, 22:08:40 06/10/02 Mon
The fight is won, but
a heart's split in twain. Alas,
no hugs and puppies!
Rob
[> [> Re: This IS addictive! Here's my latest contribution... -- Ronia, 22:32:35 06/10/02 Mon
there are a few this could apply to..hmmm
1) becomming 2
2) OMWF
[> [> Re: This IS addictive! Here's my latest contribution... -- Deeva, 08:52:51 06/11/02 Tue
Graduation 2?
Completely addictive! Really must stop as this going on day 2 now. It's a good thing that work is slow right now.
[> [> [> It could work for a bunch of eps, I guess, but the one I was referring to... -- Rob, 09:14:57 06/11/02 Tue
...was "Becoming II."
Rob
[> More for the ATPo board than Buffy eps, but the other chatters seemed to like this ... :-) -- OnM, 22:50:03 06/10/02 Mon
... so here it be:
Keyboard life as if / Philosophy were raindrops / Electronic id
*
[> my try at haïku -- Ete, 00:57:41 06/11/02 Tue
#1
face to face meeting
with one long forgotten
leads to change of name
#2
To chose between
One blind of insight and
One blind of mind
#3
Magic to break or
Magic to bring together
- Heartbreak free for all
#4
This sorceror may
fulfill your wish of
Being young again
#5
Look into my eyes
and if I taugh you well
know what is my name
[> [> My guesses -- Isabel, 06:36:41 06/11/02 Tue
1) Surprise
2) Fool For Love?
3) Once more with Feeling? (I had thought B,B&B but it doesn't quite fit)
4) Band Candy (Oh, darnit! there's another one that fits too!)
5) Homecoming?
These are terrible guesses. :(
[> [> [> You're right for number 4 (not terrible at all!) -- Ete, 06:57:47 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> more haïkus -- Ete, 07:26:46 06/11/02 Tue
#5
Wouldn't threaten her
were she a lonely one
yet she asks for it
#6
Secrets and shadows,
Vamp and Watcher want the hand
which one should she trust ?
#7
Four tries for nothing
everyone think they know her
better than herself
#8
In the big house
Mummy is recieving a guest
who's very hungry
[> [> [> [> Re: more haïkus -- Deeva, 08:47:42 06/11/02 Tue
I can only guess at #6, Revelations and #7, Something Blue?
[> [> [> [> [> Right for #6, wrong for #7 :) -- Ete, 09:09:23 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re: more haïkus -- LittleBit, 09:14:36 06/11/02 Tue
Still working on 1 & 7, but here's my guesses at the others:
2 - Normal Again
3 - Something Blue
4 - Band Candy
5a - A New Man
5b - Lie to Me
6 - Revelations
8 - Angel
[> [> [> [> [> Results -- Ete, 09:21:40 06/11/02 Tue
2 - Normal Again
> Nope
3 - Something Blue
> Nope
4 - Band Candy
> Yeap
5a - A New Man
> Yeap
5b - Lie to Me
> Yeap
6 - Revelations
> Yeap
8 - Angel
> Nope
[> Now for something slightly different... -- Isabel, 06:38:39 06/11/02 Tue
Cordy's moving woes
Not Diet
"You got peanut butter on the sheets."
[> [> Re: Now for something slightly different... -- O'Cailleagh, 06:51:29 06/11/02 Tue
Ooh! Ooh! Room with a View!
[> [> [> Bingo! :) -- Isabel, 11:50:19 06/11/02 Tue
[> Haiku (Bless you!!) -- JCC, 08:32:30 06/11/02 Tue
A fallen big bad ,
who is in love with his flame,
joins to drive sire mad.
[> [> Re: Haiku (Bless you!!) -- Ete, 08:42:53 06/11/02 Tue
Lovers' walk ?
[> And now for something completely different...NOT! -- Rob, 09:20:16 06/11/02 Tue
Trapped in a nightmare
Of sheer fluffy white terror.
Translate the caption!
Rob
[> [> Re: And now for something completely different...NOT! -- d'Herblay, 09:25:47 06/11/02 Tue
"Fear Itself."
[> [> [> Yes, indeedy do! -- Rob, 09:27:51 06/11/02 Tue
[> Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:21:32 06/11/02 Tue
...I thought the board might like a try at it:
primitive urges
primal desires unbound
run their course through them
[> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Rahael, 09:27:07 06/11/02 Tue
Beer Bad?
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:31:19 06/11/02 Tue
'tisn't Beer Bad
[> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Ete, 09:28:42 06/11/02 Tue
The Pack ?
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:33:41 06/11/02 Tue
'tisn't The Pack
[> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Rob, 09:29:15 06/11/02 Tue
Beer Bad?
Where the Wild Things Are?
Graduation Day II?
Wild at Heart?
Rob
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:35:33 06/11/02 Tue
Rob...it's one of the above! ;)
[> [> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- Rob, 09:36:25 06/11/02 Tue
Wild at Heart?
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Yes! Yay you!! -- LittleBit, 09:37:28 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yay me!! ;o) -- Rob, 09:38:34 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- JCC, 09:42:03 06/11/02 Tue
The "I" in team?
[> [> [> [> Re: Since this one stumped the chat room... -- LittleBit, 09:46:24 06/11/02 Tue
Not The I in Team
[> [> You guys do this in chat? -- Deeva, 09:53:56 06/11/02 Tue
How is that even possible? It's challenging enough trying to think of what the haiku might be but with almost zero time to ponder. That's..wow...crazy. ;o)
[> [> [> Re: That's..wow...crazy. ;o)...Hmmm...so descriptive!! lol ;) -- LittleBit, 10:00:55 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> I was going for an Oz-esque laconic-thing. Sucessful, no? -- Deeva, 10:31:54 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sucessful, no? huh [almost an expression] -- LittleBit, 11:19:26 06/11/02 Tue
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- Rob, 09:35:13 06/11/02 Tue
Searing pain courses
through innocent hands. Only
a shell remains now.
Rob
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- LittleBit, 09:39:29 06/11/02 Tue
Tough Love
[> [> [> Yup! -- Rob, 10:01:26 06/11/02 Tue
[> this IS addicting -- Ete, 09:44:28 06/11/02 Tue
Thirsday, say welcome
Friday, hide and seek but on
saturday, nothing left !
[> [> Re: this IS addicting -- LittleBit, 10:09:20 06/11/02 Tue
The Freshman?
[> [> [> no, try again :) -- Ete, 10:25:10 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: this IS addicting -- Rob, 11:48:48 06/11/02 Tue
Is it "Anne"?
Rob
[> [> [> nah. try again ! -- Ete, 11:58:18 06/11/02 Tue
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- Deeva, 09:50:18 06/11/02 Tue
Dark bound in tribute
Wickedness lands in the depot
Light bound for amour
[> [> Is it... -- Rob, 10:09:11 06/11/02 Tue
Surprise?
Rob
[> [> [> Nope. -- Deeva, 10:29:57 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Ronia, 10:35:30 06/11/02 Tue
Crush?
[> [> [> Ding, ding, ding!!!! Come on down, Ronia! Let's play "The Haiku Is Right!!!!" -- Deeva, 10:39:35 06/11/02 Tue
[> Not too hard... -- LittleBit, 10:07:01 06/11/02 Tue
..but fun to put together:
ev'rything's switching
someone's come to change it all
outside to inside
[> [> Re: Not too hard... -- Ete, 10:08:08 06/11/02 Tue
Halloween ?
[> [> [> Re: Not too hard... -- LittleBit, 10:11:50 06/11/02 Tue
Yes --- with quotes directly from Drusilla! ;)
[> Re: Want to play a game? -- Rob, 11:26:00 06/11/02 Tue
Little Miss Muffet's
Breaths are silenced again and
Again; again and...
Rob
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- LittleBit, 11:38:59 06/11/02 Tue
Graduation part 2?
[> [> [> Nuh-uh! -- Rob, 11:45:44 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Ete, 11:59:31 06/11/02 Tue
Listening to fear
[> [> [> Nope! Try again! -- Rob, 12:16:27 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Want to play a game? -- Deeva, 12:19:18 06/11/02 Tue
Restless
[> [> [> No! Maybe this one's harder than I thought...Here are some hints: -- Rob, 12:34:14 06/11/02 Tue
1) There are more than two words in the title of the episode.
2) Focus on the "Little Miss Muffet" (and who "Little Miss Muffet" is), and the "again and again" part.
Rob
[> HAIKU THREAD RESTARTED above to leave some room -- LittleBit, 12:41:51 06/11/02 Tue
The unanswered ones are listed inside it.
Buffy and her special episodes (what will next years be?) -- dingoes_ate_me, 08:53:20 06/10/02 Mon
ok, i was just thinking that seing as buffy has had special episodes in the past, ok so only really two; these being HUSH S4 and ONCE MORE WITH FEELING S6.
and if next year is the last, then they have to do at least one more, but what i was trying to figure out what could top a silent, or a musical episode?
a backwards episode?
a black and white episode?
what do you all think a cool 'special' episode would be?
[> Re: Buffy and special episodes Poss.Spoiler for S7 -- Deeva, 09:10:05 06/10/02 Mon
I've read somewhere that they might be learning to speak backwards (or maybe that's just a character that will) a la Twin Peaks. But I think it's too early to really say.
[> [> Re: Buffy and special episodes Poss.Spoiler for S7 -- pr10n, 09:38:01 06/10/02 Mon
Coolest to me: Combine live action with animation. Enter the Cartoonage!
Also leads in to the animated series. Simpsons homage! "Who Framed William the Bloody?" Stop me, I'm roasting...
[> [> [> They did that on "Farscape" this year... -- Rob, 11:00:33 06/10/02 Mon
...but I've heard "Farscape"s doing a musical this year. So, "Buffy" can copy their cartoon idea, since they're doing a musical!
Rob
[> [> [> [> I saw that ep!!!!!!! -- VampRiley, 11:24:38 06/10/02 Mon
Hi-larious! Got it on tape, too.
VR
[> [> [> [> [> Me too! It's one of my favorites. :oD -- Rob, 11:31:05 06/10/02 Mon
I especially loved the Aeryn parts. Aeryn as Jessica Rabbit/Marilyn Monroe/etc. Not to mention the Wile E. Coyote/Road Runner stuff with D'Argo and Crichton, and the cartoon Scorpy! ROFLMAO!
Rob
[> Re: Buffy and her special episodes (what will next years be?) -- GreatRewards, 09:55:15 06/10/02 Mon
Ahhh, a backwards episode! Ala Memento (awesome movie, for those who haven't rented it yet!).
I would pay MONEY to see THAT episode!
[> [> Re: Buffy and her special episodes (what will next years be?) -- Brian, 10:02:30 06/10/02 Mon
How about one where all their "talents" get switched to one another. ie. Anya the Slayer
[> [> [> Oh that sounds cool! -- SugarTherapy, 11:29:02 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> [> BtVD - Buffy, the Vengence Demon? Hmm. -- VampRiley, 11:35:49 06/10/02 Mon
She's running the Magick Box and praises capitalism.
Willow becomes a contruction worker.
Xander becomes a witch.
Spike becomes a ghost.
GhostTara becomes a souled vamp.
This could be where Giles visits. He could have lost most of his Watcher knowledge and magick he gained from the Devon coven, if they haven't taken it back, and has only very limited combat training.
Dawn becomes a magick wielding, ex-Watcher and she feel rather euphoric from the sudden onset of knowledge and power.
Hmm.
Yes, there is more than just skills changing, but I'm bored. Summer school is boring. I needed a break.
VR
[> [> I don't think it's going to be "backwards" a la "Memento" -- cjl, 10:05:54 06/10/02 Mon
I think it's going to be "backwards" a la the dream sequences in Twin Peaks--as if the events on screen were taking place inside a mirror.
[> How about... -- Rob, 11:02:13 06/10/02 Mon
...An episode COMPLETELY in rhyme? The characters find themselves incapable of speaking in anything but rhyme. That could be very funny...and be a great challenge for the writers.
Rob
[> [> Re: How about... -- Deeva, 11:27:52 06/10/02 Mon
That would be an awesome thing! And I think that all those Shakespeare readings that the cast used to do at Joss' would be an indication that Joss likes good ol' Will. Iambic pentameter and couplets, here we go.
[> [> [> Re: How about... -- Aud, 11:30:20 06/10/02 Mon
We should mail all these to ME lol
[> [> [> Re: How about... -- kitkat, 12:31:10 06/10/02 Mon
That was suggested to James Marsters in an interview in this month's SFX. He thought it was a great idea:
'Oh, yeah, that would be fun! Where everyone started speaking in the rhyming scheme Shakespeare chose to write in, which is ten syllables; the accent's going soft-hard, soft-hard, soft-hard - like a heartbeat...That would be fabulous, and nobody would be better at writing that than Joss'.
He himself suggests that they 'walk on their hands for an entire episode'. Hmmmm.
[> [> [> [> Really? Wow, and I thought I was the first to come up with it... -- Rob, 22:10:42 06/10/02 Mon
Hope they actually do it. That would be awesome!
Also, one area they've never covered on BtVS, although they have done alternate universes, is time travel. I think a time travel ep could be amazing.
Rob
[> [> Re: How about... -- skpe, 06:57:59 06/11/02 Tue
How about a comedy ep like in Don Quixote where all the comedic styles are interwoven. Slapstick on top of situational on top of social commentary. They say that comedy is the hardest to write and the toughest to perform so it would give the writers and cast a stretch
[> What Makes Hush a "special" episode? -- Vegeta, 11:50:28 06/10/02 Mon
Besides the fact that it rules!!!
[> [> Everything. -- VR, 11:52:25 06/10/02 Mon
[> [> Re: What Makes Hush a "special" episode? -- Rob, 12:09:08 06/10/02 Mon
The use of a non-conventional storytelling/filmmaking device...or at least the use of an old filmmaking device (silent film) in the modern medium...thus, an unusual context. They managed to pull off almost an entire episode of complete silence, and still managed to make it totally compelling and interesting to the point that the non-speaking didn't even matter! I also love the end, where, when Riley and Buffy can finally speak to each other, they can't think of the right words to say...so they just sit in silence.
Another "special" episode I'd add to the list would be "The Body," due to the lack of a background soundtrack, and the four acts, each one in mostly "real-time." And, of course, the overall lack of the supernatural, until the end, when the "fantasy deadness" of the vampire is meant to contrast with the reality of Joyce's death.
Rob
[> Victorian Buffy -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:08:18 06/10/02 Mon
First off, I'd add "Superstar", "Restless", and "Body" to the list of special episodes.
Second, it would be cool if the gang just woke up in Victorian England and didn't remember who they really were until the end.
Another cool thing would be to film an episode regularly, than put the scenes in random order.
Ixchel, yuri, Rahael!!! Keeps getting archived! Sad!Buffy -- Tillow, 12:29:51 06/10/02 Mon
Ixchel! Thank you for starting this thread again. I was at CreepCon this weekend. I talked to ASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FanGirl moment over. Now what were we talking about? Something depressing...? Joking, joking...
Ixchel said
I think she was sensitive enough to understand what she was _supposed_ to give Willow and Dawn, but I'm not sure if she wasn't still emotionally paralyzed. IOW, she understood what she should feel, but wasn't really able to do so. For example, her behavior in Entropy toward Dawn (the breakfast and shopping trip scenes) seemed like she was trying very hard, but she was "off".
You've absolutely expounded on what I was trying to say with the responsibility discussion in my earlier post. The 'emotionally paralyzed' bit is precisely it. Thank you. As if her earlier ability to be sensitive was lost to her and all she was left with was the manual. "going through the motions.."
Ixchel said
However, now that I've thought about it, I think Buffy _is_ insightful (usually, maybe not in S6, though). For example, I agree with whoever suggested that (on some level) Faith wanted Buffy to kill her (GD1). IMHO, Buffy, probably, realized this afterwards (maybe, not all at once, but eventually), but she never articulated it (not being one to rake up the past, as you said). Also, she seems to have trouble talking about trauma (another example, her conversation with Giles and Willow regarding Angel, FH&T).
I think another example was her discussion on the couch with Dawn and Xander in Villains when she had to talk them out of vengeance and explain to them the rules of the human world and how Willow didn't want to accept that. Many didn't like that speech, citing it as boring, senseless exposition. On the contrary, I thought it was one of the few moments this season where we really got to see the inner workings of Buffy's mind (besides her guilt and sexuality) and I liked what I saw. She does know what a Slayer is. And she did have insight into what Willow's rampage was about.
Ixchel said
Regarding Spike, I believe he was depressed in S4, then in S5 he found a purpose (even if he didn't want it) in loving Buffy. At the end of S5 he seemed content with having gained her trust and being allowed to help her. I'm sure he was depressed before she came back and then again, beginning with their affair and intensifying after AYW. I believe I understand your point about insight, but IMHO, this trait is a fundamental part of his personality, not necessarily part of his depression (but, you, probably, didn't mean that it is). Interesting suggestion that Buffy would seek out Spike because he could understand. IMHO, it was more because that she didn't have to pretend around him, but this could be a part of it (of course). I think they are related, not that that's the ONLY reason. :) on to larger matters...
Yes, thank you for prompting me to clarify my earlier statement about Spike as a depressed character. You are right. He has had moments where he has risen about his arrested state of development. All during season 5 Spike's, I don't know *spirit, essence* sense of self, grew as his relationship to Buffy/Dawn developed. I think now that you mention it, he was probably less depressed when she was dead then after their sexual relationship began. Because when that occurred, they fell back on old rolls. Buffy treating him once again like a monster/whipping boy and him being love's bitca. The scene where Buffy beats Spike in the alley and he is saying "put it on me" was very representative of what happened this season IMHO because she came to him depressed, he was the most human we've seen him. By the end of the season, she's Normal Again and he's at, as far as I'm concerned, the worst we've ever seen him. Evidently that is what the writers felt they needed to do in order to redeem him. Perhaps because he had been 'treated like a man' or temporarily left his depressed state, and then sunken back into it, he could then see for himself how shallow it was.
yuri said
You mention the scene where Spike says what everyone is trying not believe, that Willow isn't getting any better, and I've actually, throughout this thread, been thinking of Willow and how the idea of the sympathetic depressed person doesn't fit her. When she was upset about OZ, I doubt she could have spotted sadness in anyone very easily or willingly. This fits entirely with what we've seen of her character since then, but also what I've always found slightly disturbing about that time was how unsympathetic Buffy and Xander were to her dispair. Was it because they were in stable places, and therefore unable to identify with her pain, or because the type of mourner she was (selfish, consuming) didn't inspire sympathy? To get sympathy, you need to show some awareness, I guess.
ixchel's response
Also, thank you, yuri. I think Buffy and Xander were sympathetic to Willow about Oz, up to a point. But, I did find their unsympathetic behavior disturbing also, though, somewhat, understandable. Of course, as people sometimes do, they said unkind things when she wasn't in the room. I do think they lost patience with her because of her (mild, really) lashing out. OTOH, both Buffy and Xander have acted badly (WSWB, BB&B) when they were having emotional difficulties, so Willow wasn't unusual in this in SB. And, something I remember thinking at the time SB first aired, Willow was always
very supportive of Buffy when she was upset (Passion, TP). Of course, Xander is a little different because of the romantic angle present at those times, but she has also almost always supportive of him. Not that emotional connections are some sort of commercial transaction and they owed her something (I think they helped her as best they could). IMHO, the intensity of Willow's distress about Oz makes sense, because she has always had extensive emotions (her strength _and_ her weakness). You have a very interesting thought about positive and negative aspects of depression-enhanced sensitivity and relationships. I would suggest that, maybe, when these relationships turn out negatively, it's not only the "comforter's" doing, but the comforted has (in his/her suffering) tried to take too much. It seems to me that you have a clear idea of what goes wrong in these situations and have, quite sensibly, modified your behavior. IMHO, there is no fault in failing to deal completely rationally with emotions, they aren't rational. So it makes sense that what seems intellectually appropriate relationship formation can collapse when confronted with actual feelings.
I'd just like to make the point about Willow in the interaction with Buffy and Xander around the time of Oz leaving that I do think they helped her the best that they could because she didn't really want to be helped. This is one of the most impressive story lines ME has built IMHO because it has taken YEARS to come to fruition but can be best surmised in 2 lines.
Buffy: You have to work through the pain.
Willow: I don't wanna; can't I just go poof and make it go away?
In Something Blue it was alcohol and then magic but magic increasingly became Willow's method of 'fixing things to her liking' as Tara put it. Xander and Buffy were in stable relationships but they were willing to be there for her. Willow was wallowing. And we all have the right to wallow now and again. My whole philosophy is the faster you feel it the faster you heal it but I don't sit at picnics with my friends and point out their rapidly browning apples. :) I digress. I'm not sure that I would consider that as depression in the clinical sense. Definitely severe self esteem issues. And is there a line between these two?
yuri said
I find interesting the line between the depressed who is able to use their enhanced ability to see other's pain and not be afraid of it and who acts upon it in a positive way, and the depressed who uses that awareness too much and leans on it to create unhealthy relationships in which they are the perpetual confidant, comforter, or hero.
I think I've been the latter a few times (not so much the hero, but definitely the confidant), and it's really hard because I always wonder if I would prefer not to help out at all, or to create these imbalanced relationships with people. I worry that I don't know how to find the balance (intellectually, I do, but in practice it is much more difficult) and so I feel I have to choose one extreme. I've realized that it doesn't help the person in pain any more than it helps me, and that it is selfish of me to set things up like that, so I have pretty much forced myself away from doing it. But this is probably why the topic so fascinates me. I'm beginning to really understand that, as Tillow says, you must only use it as a tool, and not an identity.
I think your first sentence here is quite beautifully stated. As for the rest? Balance is key. Attaining balance, illusive. May I make a reading suggestion? With my whole heart I recommend the Mastery of Love by Don Miguel Ruiz. You should probably read the Four Agreements first (same author) but the Mastery of Love was the more amazing book for me. They are both short and appy to some of what we are talking about here. Holding on to yourself while giving to others without questioning too much. Realizing such things are possible. Beneficial even. :)
Awesome discussion people!!! And I swear in the time it took me to write this, the thread got archived.
Tillow
[> Fascinating post, Tillow and thank you. -- Ixchel, 20:35:44 06/10/02 Mon
I think we're in agreement about Buffy's reactions. I especially like your statement about having a "manual", but not the actual emotions to go with it. "Going through the motions...", indeed.
Regarding Buffy's speech in Villains, I think the shadow of Faith was in that room, though she wasn't mentioned. IMHO, Buffy learned many things from her experience with Faith and didn't have to learn them in quite as hard a way as Faith did or Willow is. I do wonder though, if Buffy would've had as much clarity if it had been Dawn who died or if she hadn't been still, somewhat, emotionally detached (this isn't a criticism of Buffy, just a wondering). Of course, a lot has happened since S3 when she went after Faith (who would, I suppose, count as a human though she and Buffy are really superhuman) in GD1. The differences being that Faith's death could have saved Angel (and she didn't even have to die, necessarily), while Warren's death couldn't bring back Tara, and Buffy realized (after she stabbed Faith) that what she'd done was wrong (IMHO), whereas Willow didn't realize anything (after killing Warren) and continued on. As an aside, I also wonder, if Warren had been a demon of some sort (rather than human), would some believe that Willow's actions were appropriate (just the killing him)? I wouldn't, because I think revenge isn't ever appropriate. The demon would have to be dispatched (presumably by Buffy), but not for revenge, rather to prevent his killing anyone else. I feel the distinction is very important.
You make some very interesting points about Spike. As an aside, I'm not completely sure that (from within the story, from without, on the level of the writers, of course it had to unfold in some very dramatic manner), if Buffy hadn't come back or if she hadn't initiated their affair (OMWF), Spike couldn't have maintained his stasis (not "good", not "bad") indefinitely. Of course, this is irrelevant now and if it had happened this way, he would've never completed the (apparently) necessary transformation to be "good". It _is_ noticeable that at the beginning of S6 Spike is fairly stable and Buffy is very unstable (beneath her apathy). During the progression of the season Buffy becomes more stable (though painfully slowly, with much backsliding and starting over) and Spike loses whatever stability he once had (also slowly). I'm not sure what, if anything, this means.
You also make some interesting points about Willow. One thing about her reaction to Oz's departure, I'm not sure how much time passed between that and SB. Was Willow's despair really _that_ unreasonable (up to the spell-casting, I mean)? IMHO, she was very depressed (though not clinically so) and she didn't deal with it well, it was her first time (both Buffy and Xander had gone through this). Also, how long is an appropriate mourning period for a relationship and who decides these things? I honestly have no idea. Regarding Willow's poor response to pain, Buffy also has a poor response sometimes (again, not a criticism just an observation). She tends to try to escape it, as opposed to Willow's trying to eliminate it. Unfortunately, Willow's response lead to more and more questionable behavior, culimnating in her meltdown (S6). One point (I feel compelled to make), Willow was always very supportive of Buffy, about Angel, she tried to help after the Parker fiasco, she was sympathetic when Buffy felt like a third wheel in FI, she thought of Buffy's happiness when Riley expressed interest in TI (and this was during her despair about Oz). So if she needed more care when she was sad, I'm inclined to understand this (not that it excuses her rudeness in SB, though, and not that Buffy and Xander probably weren't tapped out). Of course, it's obvious (to me) that her flawed method of dealing with pain influenced her later failings. However, I believe much of her trying to modify the world to her liking had to do with being powerless and then being powerful, and the effect this can have on the best and most well-meaning of people (even more so someone with a warped sense of self-worth).
This _has_ been a great discussion. Thank you again, Tillow and, also, excellent post.
Ixchel
[> Re: Ixchel, yuri, Rahael!!! Keeps getting archived! Sad!Buffy -- Rahael, 04:37:05 06/11/02 Tue
I have more thoughts to add, when work slows down. Just keeping it alive until then!
[> More random thoughts -- Rahael, 07:44:34 06/11/02 Tue
I was trying to reconcile two conflicting ideas. That the desire to avoid pain, and in fact emotions of all kind is what leads us to a depressive state. I want to say that the prison of depression is built by Willow's thoughts and words - 'make the pain stop', 'why can't it go away? Why do I have to deal?' It is the avoidance of any potential pain, and conflict and disturbing emotions that makes the depressive reduce personal and emotional contact with other people and the world at large. They seek protection in a world which might not be positive, which might be grey, but which is safe, because there is no new risk. The only threat is 'depression' and since it is a familiar state, it is preferred to a potentially even more dangerous world. Because depression reduces our capacity to see a 'full' picture of the world, to see the positive as well as negative, the depressive's insight might seem more true and real, but will also in the end lead to passivity. They are reduced to bystanders, whose negative impressions of the world and other people are confirmed and reconfirmed. Therefore, they may have insight, but they lack the ability to have agency - they doubt and mistrust that agency.
So I think it is possible to have 'insight' but be powerless. And in fact, the awareness of powerlessness could be part of that very insight. Going back to Ixchel's earlier point that depressed people have a more 'realistic' view of the world than positive people, it is clear that we sometimes need to be overly optimistic about our chances of success before we can go ahead and take risks that might not be pulled off. And this insight need have no relation to having the kind of interpersonal skills needed to handle tense situations with other people. Buffy's 'off' because while she might identify what the situation needs, she has been stripped of the ability to convey her empathy and understanding.
John Burwood pointed to Buffy's ability to mask her emotions under a mask. For me that is a classic sign. Since you deny that you feel emotion, that you feel pain, you can convince other people too. The hardest person to admit vulnerability and helplessness to is yourself. But this kind of toughness is brittle. In my opinion, Buffy's depressive state is triggered only by her mother'' death and nothing else. People have talked of Post traumatic stress disorder, and Buffy's years on the front line. I don't find this convincing because I do not read 'Slaying' as 'Killing'. I do not think we are meant to see Buffy as a Military type who 'fights' and endures shell shock. Riley and the Initiative are military types. For me the significance lies in the title of the Season 6 Premier, 'Bargaining', referring to a stage of the grieving process. One of the chief causes of depression is an interruption of the grieving process. The whole time Buffy was dead in the earth signifies her real 'depressed' period - she is dead emotionally, hibernating, unreachable. When she is resurrected - that is the start of her * recovery * process. Recovery starts at the beginning of Season 6, not the end.
I have been most admiring of how ME have shown that the hardest thing for a depressed person is learning to live again, not being depressed, because being depressed is safe, warm, without pain (as Buffy describes 'heaven'). Compared to that, the bright lights of the world that break into the dark hurt you, and looks like hell. The fire that she feared, and yet was drawn to is emotion. The very emotion/fire that the Guide told her was essential to her. Buffy's story toward the latter end of Season 5, and through all the way to Season 6 was about finding her way back to the fire of emotion/aliveness. Along the way, she learnt that life wasn't safe (Tara's death, Spike's attempted rape) and that reaching out to other people could lead to getting hurt. But one has to embrace it. Be prepared to face the pain of engaging with other human beings. I'm also wondering about another reason that Buffy reaches out to Spike, the most ambiguous person who she knows will probably let her down. Doesn't she want to be let down? Doesn't she want to realise that it's much safer not letting anyone in? Doesn't she pick the very person who will tell her to go back to the 'Asylum' which is both heaven and prison?
Thank you Yuri, Ixchel and Tillow for keeping the conversation going, and for all your great points!
[> [> Sorry, spoilers for all eps in Season 6 in above post -- Rahael, 07:58:41 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Sophist, 08:53:21 06/11/02 Tue
That the desire to avoid pain, and in fact emotions of all kind is what leads us to a depressive state. ... It is the avoidance of any potential pain, and conflict and disturbing emotions that makes the depressive reduce personal and emotional contact with other people and the world at large.
Aren't the avoidance of pain and, in fact, emotion, essential elements of Stoic philosophy? Do you mean such avoidance must lead to depression or that it can?
I'm also wondering about another reason that Buffy reaches out to Spike, the most ambiguous person who she knows will probably let her down. Doesn't she want to be let down? Doesn't she want to realise that it's much safer not letting anyone in? Doesn't she pick the very person who will tell her to go back to the 'Asylum' which is both heaven and prison?
IIRC, Spike did not tell her to go back to the Asylum, he told her she had to choose. I didn't see this as letting her down, but as calling her on the fact that she was wallowing in her own misery.
I have to say that this is a wonderful thread. I've enjoyed every single post. Great job by all.
[> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Rahael, 09:18:12 06/11/02 Tue
You are right of course - it can rather than 'it must'. I expressed myself badly - what I mean is slightly different. Isn't there a difference in trying to achieve a sense of calmness, a stocism in the face of events, different to trying to hide away from painful emotion? Such as Willow faced with all the pain in the world reacts with a very emotional, 'I can't bear it, go away'.
In my mind there is a huge difference in attempting to 'rise above' and 'suppressing'. Well, there seems to be a big difference, I just express why it's different!.
About the Spike point - as you know, I am Spike debate neutral. My point is entirely about Buffy's perspective. She thinks Spike will let her down, so it is safe to trust him. Harder to open up to Dawn, who will never go away, and clings to her. And the only person who will survive a 'beating off' from her is Spike. Buffy thinks Spike will let her down, but then I did point out that depressed people will view others and life in a negative way!!
I think this is the point that Yuri was making in her very perceptive remarks about those who see other's pain but are sucked into taking up a 'hero' or perpetual comforter role. By doing this to people who will always let you down, you simply confirm to yourself your negative impression of life, and the harm that trusting others will lead to. Of course, every now and then you pick someone who surprises you.
[> [> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- redcat, 11:43:14 06/11/02 Tue
Sophist asked Rahael: "Aren't the avoidance of pain and, in fact, emotion, essential elements
of Stoic philosophy? Do you mean such avoidance must lead to depression or that it can?" In
answer, Rahael noted that there are different ways of practicing a "sense of calmness," some
of which suppress or avoid emotion, like Stoicism, and others which seek to "rise above" the
pain without necessarily suppressing it.
My question is, doesn't a philosophy like Stoicism tend to lead many people exactly into
depression? I say this because I've met some pretty joyous yogis - and have never seen
anyone smile quite like the Dalai Lama - but have never known a happy Stoic, even tho I've
unfortunately had to live and work with a few. I'm not sure that Stoicism is the best philosophy
to use when arguing that suppression of emotion in an attempt to avoid pain doesn't
necessarily lead to depression. Historically, there may well have been Stoics who were not
depressed, but every single person I've ever met who seriously espoused that philosophy was sad (and also arrogant, but I'm not making a connection, just an observation).
Have others here had a different experience with Stoicism? Are there positive stories?
[> [> [> Let me change my answer -- Rahael, 11:34:17 06/11/02 Tue
I struggled with this question, mostly because I suddenly realised it was more important to me than I realised.
I think it's a question of 'appropriate response' and even then, the answer is complex. Certainly one must approach important moral decisions passionlessly, logically. You musn't give way to unreason. But what if, in some circumstances, passionlessness leads to madness/depression/unreason?
I was brought up to not show emotion. That whinging and whining and looking for sympathy were self indulgent and vulgar. 'Strong' people didn't do that. They just got on with things.
So, when you hear the next door neighbour being murdered, you just get on with lunch. You bury them in your garden that evening, and go on as if nothing out of the ordinary happened.
When the bombs start falling, it is dishonourable and cowardly to express fear, or run too quickly to the bomb shelter. A measured walk is sufficient. Even better, don't go - finish your chores first. Nonchalance is always the most admirable response to danger.
When you are tortured, the strong person does not break down and admit anything, (though I can kind of understand since other people's lives depend on you) but the strong person also goes on never to think about it more than a random occurrence that had no significance or effect on them.
When a child shows fear and trembles when a strange man points a gun at her, scold her. This is dangerous behaviour.
When death approaches, you must make sure you die honourably, with your pride intact. Be prepared.
Remind the teenager, who grieves the absence of her mother that some children have lost both parents. This is selfish, self indulgent emotion which must be quashed. Seeking help for this compounds this error, and must be discouraged.
I can testify that this is a truly crappy way to deal with life. Unfortunately, I had to go along with it firstly, because I was told to, and secondly I would have put a lot of people in danger if I hadn't. Mine was the pragmatic adoption of this principle. The people who taught me adopted it for principled reasons (I can only imagine so, since they are still sticking to them, and the only danger is the danger of facing all those scary emotions).
They still think I'm weak. I think they're batty. And I can confirm it lead to, in every case, depression and general f****d-upness. I can be passionless now about it. But about 7 years ago, it was a great wave of rebellion fuelled by anger and emotion which saved me.
[> [> [> [> Does one size fit all? -- Sophist, 12:52:13 06/11/02 Tue
You and redcat make similar points about the impact of stoicism. I certainly respect the validity of your personal experience (and repeat my expression of admiration for your triumph under such circumstances).
That said, I think different approaches work for different people. I'm reluctant to say that, in all cases and for all people, a particular view of life "must" lead to this or "can't" result in that. I'm not even sure I'd say "likely" to lead to it. "Can" seems right.
Let me give you an example from my own experience. When something bothers me (which is rare; I tend to the stoic side :)), people tell me I "must" talk about it or things will get worse. I find this untrue. I find that talking about it is, in fact, what makes things worse. It works much better for me to resolve things internally; that's the way I am able to put them behind me and move forward. When Buffy ran away after Becoming 2, I completely identified with her and was (and still am) furious at Xander, Joyce, and Willow for their mis-treatment of Buffy upon her return.
It may very well be that this approach would not work for others, or would not work for me under other circumstances (certainly my life has not involved any of the horrors you've faced, rah). But my own experience does make me reluctant to believe that we can identify a simple cause for such a complex and little-understood phenomenon as depression.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Does one size fit all? -- Rahael, 14:14:18 06/11/02 Tue
Actually, I too completely identified with Buffy at the end of season two. I had a similar reaction to the Scooby gang, and I completely affirm the calming effect of just walking away sometimes.
I also understand the whole talking thing. I can only talk about the dead issues, not the live ones, and you can't just talk to anyone, you have to talk to someone who can deal, who might be able to have helpful reactions.
Speaking as someone who has never found a friend who was comfortable listening to any bit of my past. People around me in my day to day life think I'm stoical. I know I'm not. Does this make sense? I'm just able to admit that I'm scared, and I know that I'm the only person who'll be able to pull me out of whatever situation. I hope for, but don't expect help, but nowadays I'm always confident that I can do it by myself if I need to.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Makes perfect sense to me. -- Sophist, 14:19:16 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Being forced to the other extreme fits no one -- auroramama, 15:50:49 06/11/02 Tue
I'm a talk-it-out, cry-it-out type by nature. I grew up being told constantly to suck it up. I ended up thinking that all of society (except a few loud Jews like myself) was leagued against my style of coping. I had a close friend who told me that she'd been raised to put up a stoic front and was trying to overcome that early training and express emotions like pain and anger.
Then I became friends with someone who was a natural stoic (in the lower-case sense.) *She* had experienced society as a chorus of touchy-feely twits telling her she *ought* to cry. (Remember Susan Sto Helit ((I think)) in Pratchett, when her parents died, and her teachers were badly upset that she didn't cry? Like that.) She became rather hostile to the whole idea.
I suppose it might be useful to have both methods of coping in one's repertoire. Over the years, I've certainly found myself in situations where putting emotion aside was the only way to remain useful to others, and I'm better at it than I used to be. On the other hand, that means I've also learned to make the kind of mistakes that go with that ability. I used to feel quite safe from being sandbagged by suppressed emotion, because I was lousy at suppressing. Not any more.
But if it is a good idea to be able to use more than one strategy, I'd still say that the middle of a crisis is not the time to interfere with a coping mechanism that's working. And for some reason, that's exactly when people are most likely to decide it's time to stuff a round peg in a square hole.
I'm fond of Buffy as a character partly because she's so different from me, and yet I identify with her. My heart bled for her at the beginning of 3rd season, and I was angry with her friends. (Who dares to say, "You didn't respond optimally to having to slaughter your lover"? Not me.) But my heart bled for Willow too when Oz left. She just needed to act out of character a little, say the same unhappy things a few hundred times -- thereby being annoying to her friends, certainly. But perhaps not more annoying than friendship should have tolerated.
Auroramama
[> [> [> [> [> [> Nice post. I agree. -- Sophist, 17:35:21 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree as well - good post -- shadowkat, 19:10:26 06/11/02 Tue
I too am a venter. But this year...I found myself shutting down, being unable to focus and connect - going through the motions. And thus found myself identifying very strongly with Buffy. It hurt too much to feel - so I shut myself off. I changed a coping mechanism that had worked for years - and that drove me for a relatively short period of time to a therapist to get it back. Being stoic didn't work for me - all it did is make me feel lost. I needed something in between the two extreems. I needed to care again.
Perhaps one of the reasons this season has felt so real to me and has gripped me more than any other tv show or movie or book this year, is because I felt as if I was taking the same emotional journey as the characters. When Buffy climbed out of that hole in the ground in the finale so did I...to the melodious notes of the Prayer of St. Francis.
I think climbing out of that grave is a wonderful metaphor for coming out of a depression. Starting with the breakdown of tears. In that episode we see stoic Buffy break out in tears of laughter with Giles and tears of joy and relief with Dawn, telling Dawn she wants to share the world with her and the joy in it. With Dawn she climbs out from the darkness into a beautiful spring day bright with flowering trees - up until now we've seen none. While in a depression, everything seems drab, colorless, faded. You want to be underground, in the womb, away from people and the noise. You shut off or at least I did. But you want to feel - you want to focus...but can't figure out how. You want someone, such as a handsome vampire, to comfort you and make you feel wanted and desirable and not ask anything in return - because you can't give anything. This season was about Buffy figuring out how to focus and feel again. How to walk.
Willow is a good contrast. Willow's always been the venter.
She deals with depression by taking drugs (the magic metaphor) or venting to her friends. Or taking it out on the universe. Although I'm not sure that's depression she's feeling at the end so much as grief and rage at the world for giving her so much pain.
Spike also is a good contrast - another venter. Not really stoic at all. Using alcohol, sex, and even violence. But nothing works. Until he decides to change, to finally break out of his rut. HE too arises out of his depression - taking a trip to make a change. It's sad that it took a horrible act to motivate him to do this.
Excellent thread! Really enjoyed reading the discussion. Sorry I'm not more coherent today - hope the above made sense.
[> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Arethusa, 09:45:22 06/11/02 Tue
I read somewhere a different definition of depression-that it is anger, but turned towards oneself, instead of others. As we saw in OMWF, Buffy was actually angry that she had been resurrected, but wouldn't or couldn't vent this anger on her friends, who only loved her and wanted her back. So she withdraws emotionally, denying herself the support she needs to recover from her experience. Buffy was slowly being crushed by the weight of her resonsibilities and actually started withdrawing in Season 5. Death, while unwanted, must have been a relief. Her job was done, and she could finally rest. And then her friends pulled her back into the rat race.
And Spike-he demands nothing at all from her, at least at first, so she goes to him. Unable to deal with her own pain and unwilling to take on the additional burden of others' needs, she goes to the one person whose needs she can safely and self-rightously ignore. As you said, she never lets him in, which is the one thing he really wants. Buffy insists Spike has no feelings even when it is perfectly obvious that he does because she doesn't want to be with a man who will make emotional demands on her. If he isn't human, she can be as selfish and callous as she wants-and make no mistake, depression can make one very selfish. The constant misery leaves one little energy to help or care for others. I don't blame Buffy for this-my personal, very unprofessional, opinion is that depression is a sign of bigger, hidden problems that need to exposed, and sometimes you really have to hit bottom before you *want* to change. Taking a happy pill doesn't solve anything, and can fool you into thinking the problem is gone. Plus, I read _Brave New World_, and every time I see an anti-depression medication advertisement I think -soma!
Very interesting point about needing optimism, and a very positive self-image to take risks. A little arrogance is sometimes needed to get things done-the belief in oneself and one's abilities that is confidence. Politicians are often arrogant in their self-confidence-it takes a lot of nerve to declare oneself the best person out of millions to do a certain job. Buffy has that confidence about slaying ("I can kill vampires 'til the cows come home....") but lacked it in her personal life. I hope that's changed-I think so.
[> [> Re: More random thoughts -- Raccoon, 12:13:13 06/11/02 Tue
I've enjoyed this discussion very much, and I just want to make some comments to your excellent post, Rahael.
It is the avoidance of any potential pain, and conflict and disturbing emotions that makes the depressive reduce personal and emotional contact with other people and the world at large. They seek protection in a world which might not be positive, which might be grey, but which is safe, because there is no new risk.
I'm not sure I agree with the level of active choice this view could bestow on a depressed person. Granted, there may be a subconscious wish to remain in a depressed state - the familiar is, as you say, above all a safe thing. However, I've come to take a slightly different view on depression. I'm not sure I would categorize it as the absence of emotion. I think depression, the numbness of not being connected to your environment and your own psyche, is a very powerful emotion in its own right. Depression isn't necessarily lack of energy, but enormous amounts of energy guided into the wrong places. Sometimes depression isn't a merciful but deadening absence of pain as much as a pain so immense that it drowns out everything else. I see Buffy and Willow as two different but perhaps equally valid portayals of depression in S6.
As for Buffy, I do see her as a "warrior" - the dichotomy between Buffy as mythical persona bound by fate and duty and singular young woman entitled to her choices is an endlessly fascinating dynamic, by which Buffy is being slowly torn apart during S5. I'm not sure I would categorize her as "depressed" during the final arc of that season - she is enduring grief, but purposeful and connected to the end. I see her her sacrifice in "The Gift", however, as part relief at shuffling off her coil. During this episode Buffy is permitted to fuse together the opposing aspects of her persona - she is able to be the sister/mother while surrendering wholly to "her art". The false security-inducing vision of Sunnydale Buffy has in her absence, and the Bargaining realization that it is not over, is IMO the beginning of Buffy's depression. S5 was resolved by a simple and clear-cut choice; in many ways an unrealistic resolution to real-life struggles. S6 has been characterized as anything but.
IMO Buffy isn't as much seeking numbness in S6 as unable to escape from it. The notion of having come back "wrong", the plaintiveness of "Walk Through the Fire" can be seen as underlining that. I see Buffy's death as the brief interlude of relief between completing one stage of your life and commencing another, when the consequences of your choices don't always take you were you wished to go. Spike is, in this as in other ways, Buffy's shadow self. He presents a running commentary to Buffy's journey during the season, acting as both id and superego - "You enjoy rolling in [the dirt]"; the care shown towards Dawn during the beginning of the season; harsher truths such as pointing out Buffy's dormant martyr complex. Towards him Buffy exhibits both her pain and her immense anger at having to deal with the existence that was thrown at her. Towards the end of the season Willow turns into another reflection of Buffy, only she turns her anger towards the universe instead of internalizing it. By this comparison, Buffy's violence towards her lover becomes even more disturbing and destructive.
ME have shown that the hardest thing for a depressed person is learning to live again, not being depressed, because being depressed is safe, warm, without pain (as Buffy describes 'heaven'). Again, I have to disagree on "Heaven" being Buffy's most acute state of depression. I see it more as representing ignorance of change and complicated choices. IMO depression is not a comfortable lack of emotion, but a desperate acknowledgement of the lack of connectedness to warmth and pain. Whereas Buffy seeks to establish this connection by "going through the motions" and entering into a sexual relationship against her better knowledge, Willow seeks to destroy the world because her depression is not numbing as much as it is unbearable.
Again, thanks for this wonderful discussion.
[> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- dream of the consortium, 13:14:11 06/11/02 Tue
"Again, I have to disagree on "Heaven" being Buffy's most acute state of depression. I see it more as representing ignorance of change and complicated choices. IMO depression is not a comfortable lack of emotion, but a desperate acknowledgement of the lack of connectedness to warmth and pain...Willow seeks to destroy the world because her depression is not numbing as much as it is unbearable."
Thank you for pointing this out. Depression is not comfortable; it's hell.
I have to take issue with the comments made above by one poster about how "taking a happy pill" doesn't make you better. I agree that psychotropic drugs are vastly overprescribed in our society. I took anti-depressants for a short period. I was horribly desperately unhappy at the time, and muddled and confused. Strangely enough, taking the drug gave me enough focus to realize I didn't need the drug - I needed to change my job, divorce my husband, eat better, get out of debt, lower my drinking, quit smoking and get exercise. So I did all those things. But years of a terrible marriage had gotten me to a point where I was completely unable to break out of destructive patterns. All my coping solutions made things worse, and I couldn't see it until I was on the medication. There do seem to be chemical imbalances that occur when a person is under too much stress for too long, and these can prevent a person from being able to make the changes necessary to improve her life. However, I would understand if someone were to tell me that I should not have used anti-depressants at that time, that I should have pulled myself out of it alone. Perhaps I should have. I don't know - my memories of that time are so skewed.
But my husband was a different matter. He was severely depressed, and became ever more so over the course of our six years together. He threatened suicide on a regular basis. He was fired from every job he ever had. Often, unable to cope with the demands of the workplace, he hid in the bathroom, crying on the toilet. He would cry almost every day (except, of course, for those rare, beautiful, scary days of mania). He once put out cigarettes on his wrists. He gained more and more weight, until he was over three hundred pounds. He didn't sleep more than a few hours a night. And he wouldn't medicate himself because he believed it was weak, because he thought it would "destroy his creativity" (not that he was particularly creative when he was depressed), because it was so "Brave New World." I hear he is on Zoloft now. I hear he has also lost weight, finished a master's program, and written a novel. There is no doubt on my mind that he would be dead by now if in the wake of the divorce, others had not stepped in and persuaded him to get help in the form of drugs. If he had had a heart problem, one that could be helped by diet and exercise, no one would have been horrified if he had taken drugs to help his heart while he worked on his fitness besides. But the stigma of mental illness is such that we cannot accept someone using drugs as part, not all, of getting better. People forget that depression can be just as urgent as heart disease. People die for lack of help. And simply changing your attitude doesn't work at a certain level.
I hope I didn't make anyone too uncomfortable with this. And I am not saying this in a spirit of anger, just of education. If you find anti-depressants creepy - well, I understand that, so do I on some level. I certainly find it creepy that I know so many people who take them - at least a dozen off the top of my head. Do some of these people start taking (and keep taking) Prozac because it makes it easier to deal with the job they hate, a relationship that isn't working, and so on? Sure. I would be the first to say that the average American lifestyle is a breeding ground for depression, a depression that can be cured by changing the way you live. I don't take anti-depressants now, and I have learned how to handle my tendency to depression with a constant vigilance in the way I live. (It is always with me, though - Churchill called his depression his "old black dog." I always liked that - my old black dog is always by my side, but I have trained it not to bite.) But I can't bear to hear people assume lightly that anti-depressants are for people looking for the easy way out. For some people, they are the only way out, short of a horrible, devastating alternative.
[> [> [> [> A way out... -- Tillow, 13:52:35 06/11/02 Tue
Ixchel! I'd just like to say that I did respond to your post earlier and it didn't show! Argh! I'll have to post it again tomorrow.
Dream....
I think what people lose sight of when accusations of "taking the easy way out" fly is that for some, a way out is desperately needed. Suffering occurs for years, decades even very often because of situations that people were born into and then that person takes on a pattern of behavior that causes them to be repeatedly victimized. Learned helplessness can be the most devastating an everpresent cause of depression. How do we break cycles that were in place before we were even conceived?
There is no EASY way out. It's not an easy thing to admit you need help, in the form of a helping hand, a therapist, or a pill. And I don't know many people on medication who went in begging to be put on. Most people deal with internal barriers for years and then shame of stigma, and then more processes of internal acceptance before they can admit that this medication is a logical STEP in their healing process. Wouldn't you agree?
I didn't see the comment above about the happy pill because I have been skimming (at work) but I have heard the argument again and again) - mostly from myself, sometimes from the few people I seek acceptance from - but I keep going back to that thought above, One lifetime, One awareness. I'm going to help myself whatever way I feel in my heart is best. :) Medication IN CONJUNCTION is the saving grace for many people. It's a misunderstanding to say it's the easy way out. Perhaps more like the last step in a long battle.
Tillow
[> [> [> [> [> How about medication as the life preserver ... -- Exegy, 18:27:44 06/11/02 Tue
... that holds you up until you have the strength to swim?
By the way, I just started reading this thread, and it is fascinating. Sorta ties in with my thread directly above.
Keep up the good work, everyone!
[> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- redcat, 14:00:20 06/11/02 Tue
"My old pain and I are quite
comfortable with each other.
It has its own room in my heart
not a visitor, I see it
sometimes,
in its ratty bathroom slippers
rummaging for the coffee.
My old pain and I."
[> [> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- dream of the consortium, 14:12:26 06/11/02 Tue
Who is that - I quite like it. Thank you.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: More random thoughts -- rc, 15:24:52 06/11/02 Tue
Thanks, it's mine, written during my first winter twelve years ago, fingers so cold I could barely type... sorry the quotation marks were confusing.
[> [> [> [> [> [> This is beautiful cat -- Ete, 15:32:12 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Wonderful poetry, redcat! -- Exegy, 18:32:13 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> Choice -- Rahael, 14:48:30 06/11/02 Tue
Of course, depression is such a complicated phenomenon, that goes without saying, and since mental illness is so little understood, there was no way my random thoughts, purely from a personal perspective could come anywhere close to encompassing it.
I suggested Buffy's death to life metaphor not as a literal experience of depression, but a metaphorical one. The fact that ME themselves suggested that what Buffy believed was heaven was actually a mental asylum was the starting point of my thoughts. Maybe, the comparison I make only works for my own experience. I assure you, that it is quite possible to be depressed and not have any emotion. No anger, no tears, no crying. No ability to love, no ability to return affection. George Herbert made a comparison between a state of depression and 'flowers going underground', and says with awe, 'who would have thought, my shrivelled heart, could have recovered greeness?" There was the same image of death/rebirth with depression/numbness and growing again to new life.
The seeking of oblivion, of thought and feeling and emotion is the constant wish of many depressed people and it's a terrible logic built into the very formation of the depressed way of thinking. So perhaps I could characterise it better as oblivion, rather than emotionless. And I think Buffy's heaven could be seen as a kind of oblivion of thought and feeling. But hey, metaphors have to work in many different ways, otherwise, how long could we keep on discussing old eps?
I think that people who have inherited a tendency toward depression are in thrall to a terrible illness which has to be, and can be managed, through drugs and therapy. But I think that where endogenous depression is concerned, the most wonderful thing I realised was that I could make sure that I never went there again, that I was powerful, not weak and helpless.
And I would have to say that Buffy is constantly presented with choices all through the season. Should she tell her friends? Should she engage with Spike? Should she take the antidote? Should she choose to start living again.
[> [> [> [> Mea Culpa -- Arethsua, 15:51:11 06/11/02 Tue
I stupidly did not distinguish between someone who is depressed, like Buffy, and someone who battles a life-long medical and psychological condition. I apologize. I certainly should have known better. I've been fighting depression for two decades.
[> [> [> [> Rahael -- Raccoon, 16:13:05 06/11/02 Tue
I didn't mean to suggest that your views were in any way invalid, or that each experience of depression isn't unique and true in its separate way. I was trying to interpret S6 by way of my understanding of depression; I'm sorry I didn't make that clear enough.
I'm actually wondering whether we might not be talking of the same thing but expressing it differently. I agree depression leading one to seek oblivion - the difference is that I'd characterize non-emotion as an emotional state. As you probably understood English is not my native language, and not always the best language for expressing the views my cultural background has given me.
Of course Buffy had choices - I'm pretty sure she was well aware of them. I don't think, though, that she used her depression as a way of avoiding making these choices. Rather, I saw her as not quite understanding *why* she was so passive, much like a strong swimmer suddenly overwhelmed by the tide. Probably my comparison works best for my experience. I didn't in any way mean to criticize the validity or truth of your experiences.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Rahael -- Rahael, 16:26:09 06/11/02 Tue
Not at all! I just got worried that I'd gone and invalidated someone else's experience or something!!!
I just suddenly realised that because it's not something I talk about very often, or have discussed with anyone else, that I had such an intensely personal perspective on it, and that it could feel qualitatively so completely different for someone else. Academically I knew it, but personally, this thread has been very enlightning.
[> [> [> [> Depression, black; depression, gray -- auroramama, 16:31:35 06/11/02 Tue
Depression (as opposed to the state of feeling depressed) can mean an absence of all feeling or the presence of great misery. I think of these as gray depression and black depression.
A dear friend of mine experienced a severe gray depression a few years ago. There was nothing safe or warm about it for her. It was the absence of the ability to feel pleasure. She couldn't remember what it felt like to be happy, or even mildly pleased, about something. She had no reason to do anything -- get out of bed, pick up a book, eat, speak -- because the natural rewards these actions provide were absent as if they had never been. She knew that her friends told her to do these things, but friendship and concern were nothing but words now. It was the absolute still point, where there is no motivation, no gradient between pleasure and pain, no difference between here and there: maximum entropy. I'm not sure it's something that can be understood unless it's happened to you.
Black depression is probably more familiar to most people. Everyone has felt grief, sorrow, misery. Now just crank up the misery signal so loud your ears bleed, and play it most of the day, most days, for at least six weeks. Voila. Motivation does exist in this state; if something seems to help the pain, you're strongly motivated to repeat it.
To me, Buffy's state resembled black depression at first -- the hellish real world drowning out all other signals -- and then settled into something closer to gray. It made sense to me. Perhaps being in Heaven satisfied all her emotional needs so perfectly, so effortlessly, that her ability to derive pleasure from the mixed blessings of our world had atrophied. She was accustomed to the straight stuff, pure uncut joy, like pure silver, and no longer knew how to labor in the mines like the rest of us.
Auroramama
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Depression, black; depression, gray -- Rahael, 17:43:28 06/11/02 Tue
I guess I'm not saying this very well, about the safe and warm part. I only want to clear up what I was trying to get at, so that people don't think I'm trying to devalue the misery of depression.
Simply saying that the Asylum protected Buffy in a way from emotional and physical danger, just as the very severe form of depression that I suffered protected me from a trauma I couldn't bear. And when I say absence of feeling, I mean that I felt no feeling about my mother's assassination. No grief, no pain. I thought about it, I shrugged. Figured I couldn't have loved her very much. I thought that either I must be very uncaring, or just very emotionally tough. Boy, I got it all wrong!
And yes, it was a kind of choice I made not to face the real world. And it allowed me some years of respite before the storm broke, which is why I sometimes go on about the dangers of too much escapism.
The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 1 of 3, Spoilers) -- Exegy, 11:30:48 06/10/02 Mon
A couple prefatory remarks:
First, I want to thank shadowkat and leslie for inspiring me to write something dangerously essay-like. Much of the following post consists of responses I made to 'kat's excellent thread down below. (Check it out, even if it's placed in the archives. Great insights!) Once again, thank you.
Second, BSD Alert! No, I'm not speaking of the Big Scooby Death. I'm talking about Buffy, Spike, and Dawn. My post focuses almost exclusively on these three characters (hey, I only have so much time to write). You have been forewarned.
Now, without further ado....
Part One--Burial: Escape from Pain
Buffy hasn't been quite the same this season. She's come "back from the grave much graver," as Anya notes (OMWF). She lacks that spark, that joy of life she once had. It's as if all the trauma of recent times has depleted her, leaving her a ravaged shell of her former self. The pain just keeps coming and coming....
The sacrifice of The Gift represents Buffy's last grand resistance to the shockwaves (Riley's departure, Joyce's illness and death, the rampage of a mad hellgod). Our hero gives all that she has to give, losing herself so that she may save herself in Dawn. Buffy transcends her physical reality; her body plummets to the earth, but she's not in it. She's gone, her life complete. Death comes as a gift, an end to suffering the weight of the world. Buffy embraces this end, happy for the escape her demise provides.
She drifts, perfectly content in her heaven. She's protected here, surrounded by love and warmth, insulated from the outside. She has no worries; she "knows" that everyone is safe, that everything will be fine. The world has no more need of her; the Slayer's duty is over. And so Buffy rests in this womb apart from time.
But one cannot take comfort in the womb forever. Childhood ends, and adulthood must begin. Buffy's child self has died in The Gift (to live on in Dawn, the "next generation"); her resurrection signifies the birth of her adult self. Yet Buffy does not want to be reborn--she's been wrenched back against her will. Her connections to this plane simply will not let her go. She's needed. Duty beckons even from beyond the grave.
Buffy does not want to accept her responsibilities. She wants only to escape. This world is hell for her, a realm of harsh light and violence. A place that seeks to destroy her at every turn, beating her down. Biker demons literally destroy the Slayer's image (the Buffybot) before assaulting her with clubs. This is the chaos she sees awaiting her. She runs away from it, and in the same action she runs away from her friends. She cannot let them touch her; to open herself to them would be to open herself to the pain. No, she must protect herself.
And so Buffy races to the tower, seeking escape once more. But the same end is not available to her. The conviction of total bliss has gone. Buffy looks at the spot where everything was once so clear, and all she sees is an empty void. The moment of her transcendence has passed. She's trying to return to a condition that is no longer available to her. She wills herself to jump anyway, but Dawn pulls her back from the brink. When Buffy saves Dawn again, this time she saves herself.
She embraces her younger sister; she reestablishes her physical bond to this world. But her eyes are dead, her expression blank. She's retreated into herself, away from the trauma. Buffy may have brought her body up from the grave, but her emotional self still lies buried.
The Slayer has closed herself off. She refuses to actively participate in a world that can cause her such pain. And so she spends most of this season in a listless daze, hovering about the periphery of her own life. Her spark's gone, replaced by a deadly inertia. She's going through the motions, sleepwalking through her life's endeavor. Too often she just pauses with a blank stare on her face, frozen as the problems start to leak past her defenses.
We see what Buffy does with her problems. She represses them, just as she represses her feelings. She shoves them into the basement of her mind (as she literally shoves the M'Fashnik demon into the basement). As if that will make everything "all better." Buffy only ends up flooded. She's worsened her situation by refusing to fully address the difficulties. Instead she seeks escape, first with Giles and then with Spike.
Buffy shoves her responsibilities on Giles. She lets him handle her financial dilemma. She lets him deal with Dawn's rebelliousness. She seeks comfort in his fatherly advice ("rakish uncle" just doesn't sound right in this context).
But Buffy doesn't let him help her. She can't open herself enough for that. When Giles tries to reach her, she retreats. There's a nice scene in Flooded where he deals with her problems and then attempts to touch her--but she's gone. She's erected such a strong barrier around herself that she cannot be touched--by foe or by friend.
Giles realizes that he cannot help Buffy by handling her responsibilities for her. She's not growing up; she's retreating into a second childhood by relying more and more on her "father figure." She's gotten close to the point where she'll drown without him. If he leaves, then maybe she'll learn to swim before it's too late. This reasoning spurs Giles' departure. He truly desires the best for Buffy, but all she sees is another man deserting her.
The pain keeps coming, and Buffy keeps retreating. This time she seeks sexual comfort with Spike. And eventually something curious happens....
Part Two follows (Voy permitting)
[> The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 2 of 3, Spoilers) -- Exegy, 12:50:13 06/10/02 Mon
Part Two--Barriers: Closed Doors and Armor
A part of Buffy wants to feel, wants the fire back. That part responds to Spike. Buffy's drawn to the flame of his passion. She soon flings herself into a fiery affair with him ... and the flame scorches them both.
Buffy and Spike lose control of themselves to their passion. We see the barriers between them smashed apart during sex; they fall down into themselves, oblivious as the wreckage accumulates. They've seized upon each other now; each looks to the other to provide some lacking element in this most codependent of relationships. Yes, they've seized upon each other ... to their mutual self-destruction (as the metaphor of the broken building implies).
Sex has brought the house down. Those walls Buffy has set about herself have fallen ... for a time. She's able to express all her raw emotions during the act of sex, but she can't deal with her feelings afterwards. She closes herself even further in reaction to her emotional outpouring, denying the intimacy she's shared with Spike. Buffy shields herself with her clothes, setting up whatever barrier she can, and then she races away, "virtue fluttering." She dons the armor of righteousness, leaving Spike naked and vulnerable in the wreckage of their affair (see also end of AYW).
Buffy insists that the events of Smashed will never take place again. She'll not give into her "addiction" a second time (Buffy connects her use of Spike with Willow's use of magick--and the viewer sees both ladies trying to escape from pain). This loss of control won't reoccur--no matter how good it feels. Buffy surrounds herself with garlic, making every pitiful attempt to reestablish her barriers. But she's let Spike in once, and she continues to let him in. She continues to use him as the "easy fix" for her pain. And she starts to see him as less of a companion and more of a personal sex toy. She begins to abuse him as such. It's a funny thing, really--the more Buffy opens up to Spike during sex, the more she closes herself to him in their other interactions. Spike tries to reach her outside of sex, but Buffy continues to deny him that access. There's only one way for Spike to reach her, and so he turns to that way as often as possible, trying to open the Slayer the only way he knows how.
We see Spike attempting to open Buffy in DT. I speak of the "door scene." Spike stands on one side of a closed door, his shirt open, his feelings exposed. The light inside is warm, comforting. Spike bares his emotions; he lets them shine. On the other side, Buffy hides her feelings, burying them under layers of clothes. She stands outdoors, in the dark. She tentatively reaches out, sensing the presence of her "mate," but her hand is gloved. Spike's hand is bare, and he reaches to open the closed door, in the same movement reaching to open the closed Buffy. But she's already gone. Spike can't touch her. Those self-made barriers are too strong (she can't love him, he's everything she should be against, she's been burned before, and what if he--don't finish that thought).
Buffy hides her feelings in an attempt to protect them. She continues to seek sexual comfort with Spike, but she armors herself more and more to him. For example, let's take a look at the AYW scene in which Buffy turns to her lover for sexual reassurance:
Spike wears loose clothing, easy for Buffy to take off. She makes short work of stripping him bare. He's allowing her ready access. He's opening himself up to her. He becomes naked and vulnerable.
In contrast, Buffy's still wearing the Kevlar "armor" Riley gave her. Spike has difficulty reaching her even as the sex commences. She's closed to him, hiding her emotions while Spike expresses himself (he easily declares his love for her, but Buffy says nothing to reveal her own feelings). Soon Buffy closes herself completely to Spike. Her break-up with him is about more than just denying him sex; it's about denying him access to her at all. Spike's further attempts to reach her are always frustrated, leaving him lost and confused in the wreckage of the affair (as Buffy ascends into the light, determined to set herself on the right path by leaving behind her memory of an ugly tryst--and her memory of her own extremely ugly behavior).
Now we get to the bathroom scene in SR. The bathroom is a private place, somewhere Buffy can be alone with herself. She's safe here; she comes here to recuperate after an injury. She's inside, comforted (as Spike was inside and comforted in DT). She can be vulnerable, weak (as Spike was in his crypt in AYW). She doesn't need to maintain those impregnable barriers. Nothing is here to hurt her.
Then Spike enters. He's still trying to reach her, even though he knows it's a lost cause. But Buffy gives him reason to hope (just as she gave him reason to hope in AYW when she slept beside him, seeking comfort). She opens herself enough to admit feelings for him. This is what Spike wants to hear (just as Buffy wanted to hear that she was beautiful and desireable). His efforts to reach her escalate, and he ends up trying to make her feel the only way he knows how (through the act of sexual intercourse, the only way she ever allowed herself to be completely vulnerable/open/raw to him). Spike becomes violent in his efforts; he rips at her bathrobe, her scant "armor." Buffy's being violated; she's not opening herself to him, he's doing this against her will. She screams and pleads for him to stop, but he doesn't hear her. He's lost, out of control; this time he's the one who's closed to her, he's the one who wears the black clothing (not really armor in his case--that would be the duster, indicative of the Big Bad exterior--rather the self brought down to its negative image).
Buffy finally kicks some sense into Spike. He leaves, realizing that he's been brought to nothing. Not a Big Bad (leaving that duster behind). Not a man, not someone Buffy could ever trust with her feelings. He goes, the negative image of himself, and he seeks change. A positive reinvention. He's stripped entirely during his trials; Spike must be open to transformation (and all the pain that transformation entails).
Let's go back to where we left Buffy: on her bathroom floor. We see that some action of Spike's has finally reached her. He's forced her to recognize his feelings (in their ugliest manifestation), to accept for once their absolute reality. The bruise he's left upon her thigh is concrete proof of the legitimacy of his emotions. Buffy can no longer discount Spike as a dead man who doesn't matter, who doesn't mind being used. She realizes that her part in their mutually abusive relationship has led them to this outcome.
If only she could have let him (anyone) open that door of her own accord.
But she was afraid to let her emotions out, afraid to risk the chances of being burned again (as Angel burned her). So she's closed herself off.
The outcome is the same: the lover leaves. Buffy's unvoiced fear (probably closed to her own conscious mind) has resurfaced. Spike's left her, one more in a long line of men who have left her. And she shares partial blame for the ugly mess their relationship became. She knows what a monster she's been (which is why I feel that her offense at Spike's actions in SR is rather muted).
So what does she think? It's so hard to tell; her face still seems so blank, so inexpressive. Her emotions are still buried.
Buffy's feelings may be closed to the viewer, but the writers have provided a key to understanding her. It looks like Dawn still opens something after all....
Part Three to follow
[> The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 3 of 3, Spoilers) -- Exegy, 14:09:33 06/10/02 Mon
Part Three--Dawn and Spike: Keys and Consequences
Dawn reflects what Buffy feels. Dawn is the "best part" of Buffy, the part that must be protected and saved, the part that has been neglected all this season. Buffy has not attended to Dawn; she has not attended to her own feelings. She has kept them hidden, buried, overprotected and neglected all at once. It's no wonder that she plays such a large part in the dysfunction of S/B. She can't be attuned to another if she's not even attuned to herself (as the strained relationship with Dawn indicates).
But Buffy's starting to get along better with Dawn. She's starting to awaken to her own emotions. She brings her sister to Spike's in Villains, and it's almost as if she's offering him that emotional part of her he so violently tried to reach. Dawn reflects Buffy's feelings, and Dawn wants to seek comfort with Spike. She has the "Summers' blind spot," the unwillingness to believe the worst of Spike. She can't credit Xander when he tells her about the potential rape. How could Spike betray his love for Buffy? He couldn't do that!
I'm sure Buffy never thought that her lover would do that to her. She trusts his feelings for her enough to turn her back on him in the bathroom. She implicitly trusts his love for her, and when he betrays that love ... she feels incredibly hurt ... and she realizes her own fault in the relationship.
The breach of trust has occurred. Buffy's bringing Dawn to Spike reveals an acceptance of that and perhaps a metaphorical attempt at reconciliation (with Dawn as an extension of Buffy's feelings). Now the Slayer's reaching out. But Spike's gone. Buffy's unvoiced fear has come true, the fear at the root of those self-made barriers. It's the fear that holds that door between Buffy and Spike closed, the possibility that she doesn't want to acknowledge (shutting him up with her lips in Smashed when he approaches the truth). It's the fear of him leaving her. Yet another man in her life leaving her ... due in part to what she has done.
Now she can't reach him. When Dawn tells Buffy that the hole in Grave reminds her of the tunnels to Spike's crypt ... and maybe if they broke through they could reach it ... Buffy reacts with great bitterness. She can't reach Spike in his inner sanctum; he's gone. Clem doesn't expect him to return any time soon, either. There's nothing to do about the situation, there's no reparation that can take place.
Dawn confronts Buffy on the matter. Why did she keep the potential rape secret? Buffy speaks of the need for protection. Dawn, the emotional self, shouldn't have to deal with these problems. But Dawn replies that she has to know this--it affects her whether Buffy likes it or not (Buffy will be hurt whether she likes it or not). Dawn (the emotions) cannot be protected forever. Buffy realizes that she needs to show Dawn (and herself) to the world, risking the pain for the joy.
The Slayer finally emerges from the grave intact. She brings Dawn and her emotions to the surface. We see her acknowledging those feelings she's kept buried (and crying at the relief such an experience brings).
Previously we saw a Buffy not attuned to herself. She felt wrong, less than human. She could believe Spike when he called her a demon. She wanted to believe him, for the real Buffy would never descend to such depths. The real Buffy would never abuse her lover and neglect her sister and let Willow drown in an addiction (parallel to her own).
Buffy feels guilty about what she's become, and we see this guilt manifest itself in the DT dream. The issue of trust comes up when Buffy asks Spike the same question he asked her at the beginning of the episode: "Do you trust me?"
Buffy trusted Spike. She wouldn't admit it, but she trusted him. Enough for him to handcuff her and have his way with her. She opened up to him completely in the act of sex; her strongest emotions burst through, leaving Spike with a raw, violent "animal" at his mercy (something I'm sure he found quite delightful, if also somewhat painful). Buffy could let Spike see her at her worst; he accepted her no matter how negative she became. He gave her what she feared (knew) her friends couldn't give her at the time. And she could feel when she made love to him. But some of what she was feeling she didn't like. All those negative, repressed emotions flooding out....
Buffy felt like she couldn't trust herself with Spike. She knew she was using his love for her, destroying herself in the process of hurting and destroying him. Her guilt comes forth in the dream when she stakes the naked and vulnerable Spike (who has put himself entirely at her mercy). Spike becomes Katrina, the woman Buffy fears she has killed. Buffy sees what she's capable of, and she runs away, turning the responsibility for her actions over to the authorities. She also flees from her emotions, as indicated by the estrangement from Dawn.
Instead of dealing with her self-loathing, Buffy projects it all onto Spike. She then "beats him to a pulp." When she sees what she's done to her lover, she moans and turns herself in, denying her responsibility for the actions she's just committed.
I doubt she ever goes back to Spike in that alley; she wants to run away from what she's done. She can't look back at her bloody handiwork, the fulfillment of her guilty dream. She's wrong, all this is wrong.
And she's weak. Even after her confession to Tara, she continues to abuse Spike. AYW depicts some of the most reprehensible action I have ever seen; Buffy knows exactly how wrong she is, and yet she continues. She finally stops when she admits her weakness. She realizes that her abuse of Spike is killing her. She resolves to change herself for the better, to become the hero she once was ... but she leaves Spike behind in the rubble. Her concern is for herself; she doesn't quite understand the very real damage she's caused to Spike. She just doesn't take this "dead man" as seriously as she should. Although he's "not exactly complaining" about her treatment, the damage is evident (the mutilation that neither Spike nor Buffy really acknowledges in OAFA is a literal representation of the vamp's psychological condition). Buffy's forced to see the damage she's caused when her lover snaps as a result of all the abuse he's borne.
Buffy and Spike are both the bad guys here. They each share the blame for their dysfunctional relationship. Buffy must forgive Spike and Spike must forgive Buffy before a healthier relationship (one built on mutual trust) can arise from the wreckage.
What Buffy did to Spike should not be swept under the rug as so much of their unhealthy tryst was. The debris should be acknowledged and dealt with by both partners. Then the healing can begin.
It's as the Spirit Guide of Intervention says. Buffy may have buried her emotions from the pain ("I touch the fire / and it freezes me"), but she still has the ability to love locked within her. She's full of love that burns brighter than any fire; she only needs to open herself to a realization of this love. She needs to risk the pain, to give ... and forgive.
Thanks for reading! Comments are appreciated. I will try to respond by tomorrow afternoon.
[> [> Exactly. With or w/o Glory or the ritual, Dawn IS the Key. -- cjl, 14:46:03 06/10/02 Mon
Your conclusion perfectly dovetails with my posts and with shadowkat's treatises.
At the end of Part II of my Dawn post, I said "Dawn IS Soul." I still think she's the incarnated essence of the PTB, a true avatar, like Krishna in the Mahabarata, but I could be wrong. Is she a piece of Buffy's soul, incarnated by the monks?
Regardless...an excellent analysis of Buffy's emotional states through Season 6. I don't know if SMG succeeded in PLAYING all the various phases as well as you described them, but that's another flame-inducing thread....
[> [> [> Re: Exactly. With or w/o Glory or the ritual, Dawn IS the Key. -- shadowkat, 19:09:33 06/10/02 Mon
Haven't had a chance to read exegy's whole post yet.
Will respond to it when I do. I copied it off to read tomorrow.
"At the end of Part II of my Dawn post, I said "Dawn IS Soul." I still think she's the incarnated essence of the PTB, a true avatar, like Krishna in the Mahabarata, but I could be wrong. Is she a piece of Buffy's soul, incarnated by the monks?"
I think she's the later - I think she has a piece of Buffy, piece of her soul. That does not mean she's Buffy and Spike's child - please no! I think she's Buffy's sister, but made from Buffy, like a twin sister, not a clone like a sister. Sisters can share pieces of each other - think Siamese twins? And I think this would explain Buffy's comment in The Gift about how close she is to Dawn. Also I think Dawn does represent Buffy's humanity, her innocence, her childhood, at the same time Dawn is a separate entity.
Important in her own right. Like a twin sister.
Must go to bed now.
[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly. With or w/o Glory or the ritual, Dawn IS the Key. -- Kerri, 19:55:39 06/10/02 Mon
I think Dawn is more than a sister-really more of Buffy's daughter IMO. From the shooting script of the Gift:
BUFFY
No. She's not. She's more than that.
(trying to articulate it... )
More than family... my sister, my daughter...
XANDER
She's your sister and your daughter?
BUFFY
She's me.
Dawn has many symbolic roles it seems: Buffy's emotions, the key to her heart, and her daughter-the part of Buffy that will live on.
I see the sharing of a soul, and the fact that Dawn is made from Buffy to be more like a daughter than a sister.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Exactly. With or w/o Glory or the ritual, Dawn IS the Key. -- shadowkat, 09:07:58 06/11/02 Tue
"BUFFY
No. She's not. She's more than that.
(trying to articulate it... )
More than family... my sister, my daughter...
XANDER
She's your sister and your daughter?"
The writers chose to edit out of the filming the line
"my sister, my daughter" as well as Xander's line.
So instead she just says - she's more than that, it's more than physical, she's a part of me.
I find what they chose to change from the shooting script interesting. It means that they changed their mind between the writing of the episode to actual filming and editing of it. So Joss who directed and wrote the epsiode, clearly decided against this.
My guess? I think they meant to keep Dawn as literally her
sister and metaphorically her daughter. Instead as literally both. This prevents too much confusion on our part.
The metaphor of daughter is extended by the death of Joyce.
Joyce saying Dawn isn't her's. And Buffy literally taking on Joyce's role . As well as Giles'. Something I think most single parents are aware of - taking on mother and father roles simultaneously. Joyce was spared by Giles adoption of the role.
But the writers do make sure that we understand that "literally" Dawn is only Buffy's sister - mentioned
in TR and other episodes. But metaphorically - they continue to push the daughter role. Which makes sense. It doesn't logically work for her to be Buffy's literal daughter - that makes the audience want to fill in the biological gap, by assigning a father - a direction the writers may have wanted to avoid.
Still works...for her to be metaphorically Buffy's daughter
for our purposes. Actually I like it better.
[> [> [> [> [> [> The wonderful thing about metaphors on BtVS... -- cjl, 09:19:17 06/11/02 Tue
....is that they're infinitely adaptable.
While Joyce was still alive, I think we all saw Buffy and Dawn as sisters, since they were linked by the monks' handiwork, and still had Joyce and (to a certain extent) Giles watching over them.
When Joyce died and Giles left, the mother/daughter dynamic came out a bit more clearly. This is very true to life. When a mother dies and the father isn't around, the elder daughter very often takes on a maternal role, caring for the younger siblings.
And since we might be ramping up for the spinoff, there's an additional "passing of the torch" dynamic that accentuates the mother/daughter metaphor.
So, is Dawn Buffy's--
Sister?
Daughter?
Soul?
Emotional Core?
Yes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> That particular line -- Sophist, 09:34:54 06/11/02 Tue
-- "my sister, my daughter" -- was famously used in Roman Polanski's great movie Chinatown. If you haven't seen that movie, the line refers to incest. I suspect that these words were omitted from Buffy in order to avoid the reference and the implication.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good catch, Sophist! -- redcat, 11:52:43 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That particular line -- shadowkat, 12:32:47 06/11/02 Tue
Yep explains why that line felt incestuous to me.
Thanks...I have seen Chinatown and read the script to
it. So I should have caught it. Great catch!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That particular line -- alcibiades, 13:50:59 06/11/02 Tue
Not just incest, but incestuous child rape as well.
But I guess they were leaving rape for Season 6.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That particular line -- Doriander, 14:28:46 06/11/02 Tue
Hmmm. Haven't seen the film, but gathering from what you said, perhaps they've utilized the reference and implication of that line in this one:
Lindsey: "So this place works for you?"
Dru: "Oh, yeah. (She moves one hand in a circular motion above Darla's body). Grandmother is very pleased with it. - I can tell. - Aren't you, Grandmother? (Leans down over Darla) My daughter." (Reunion)
In the context of this family's twisted dynamic, it's more effective (as opposed to Buffy and Dawn).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think you're right. On both counts. -- Sophist, 17:25:55 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Re: The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 3 of 3, Spoilers) -- Dochawk, 15:25:54 06/10/02 Mon
Although you give mention to Spike's going overboard in SR, you seem to imply that if Buffy opened up emotionally to Spike it would likely be a healthy relationship. Nothing could be further from the truth. Spike doesn't know how to have an adult healthy relationship. Throughout this season he has lied to Buffy, manipulated her, tried to seperate her from her friends (the things he tells her have kept her alive for so long). Spike is more dysfunctional than Buffy is and unless his new soul allows him a much greater understanding of what love is about and what a healthy relationship is (Has Spike ever seen a healthy relationship? His obsession with Cecily was just that an obsession, not an open and healthy lovign relationship, same with Dru). In Seeing Red Spike tells Buffy again that Love is grand passion and Buffy tells him he's wrong that its about trust and being adult. Buffy is learning what love is about, Spike can't comprehend it then as he has never been able to before. In his old form he was never able to grow in that way. We'll see if he is in his new form, but I really wonder if Buffy could, would or should take him back.
[> [> [> Re: The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 3 of 3, Spoilers) -- Dochawk, 15:34:20 06/10/02 Mon
BTW, I agree with CJL really liked your analysis of Buffy's emotional state, just feel that you didn't offer enough of Spike's influence into it.
Also really liked the way you examined Dawn as Buffy's emotional growth. That was extremely nice.
[> [> [> Quick reply (Spoilers) -- Exegy, 12:27:01 06/11/02 Tue
First, thank you for your comments. I'll try to elaborate a little. Here is my view:
I agree that Spike doesn't know what constitutes a "healthy" relationship. He's limited as a soulless being, fixated on a lower level of development. He can't reach the heights that Buffy can. When he tries to join her (climbing up that tower in The Gift), he ultimately fails. But he makes the attempt under Buffy's encouragement. He gives all that he can, just as Buffy gives all that she can. Spike fails because he just doesn't have enough to give. But his failure is a noble one; for at least a brief time, he has risen above his nature.
How is this possible? How can a soulless being reach such heights at all? The answer lies with Buffy. We see that she's opened herself to Spike, accepting him as he is, treating him as a man and not a monster. Moreover, her positive example has inspired him to act like a man. All because she's shared her suffering with him, including him in her inner circle. Trusting him with the most important thing in the world--Dawn. Spike responds well to this compassionate treatment. He may fail in The Gift, but he fails nobly.
Contrast his failure in The Gift to his failure in SR. One is noble, the other utterly ignoble. How could such a dramatic change have occurred? The answer lies with Buffy once again. She's closed herself to compassion this season. She's excluded Spike from her life, allowing him access only via sex. So when he ascends to reach her, paralleling his upward movement in The Gift, he follows the only pathway she's provided him. Buffy's been open to passion this year, not compassion. That's the difference.
If Buffy had allowed Spike that pathway of compassion. I think that a lot of the turmoil of this season could have been prevented.
Quick reply, because Voy is acting up on me. Let's see if this works!
[> [> [> [> Re: Quick reply (Spoilers) -- leslie, 13:57:41 06/11/02 Tue
Or even more simply: Buffy treats Spike like a man, he acts like a man; Buffy treats Spike like a monster, he acts like a monster. And the SG follow suit--their reactions to Spike follow Buffy's just a single step behind (they tolerate him when Buffy does, before she knows that he is love with her; as soon as she realizes it and expresses her dismay, they cut him off; when she brings him along on the Flight from Glory, they--especially Xander--object, but when she insists that Spike is necessary, they acquiesce, and this is the first--only?--time that Xander is civil to him, lighting his cigarette when they are holed up in the gas station; Spike is still "in" when Buffy dies, so he stays "in" over the summer; and so on). This is not to somehow absolve Spike of responsibility for his actions, but to point out that he's a much more social beast than he would like to admit, and also, I think, to suggest an answer to the question of how the others will react to an ensouled Spike--based on past performance, they're gonna follow Buffy's lead, but if they don't--if, say, Willow or Dawn were to be the one who reintegrates him--this will mark a major change.
Incidentally, the F/X rerun last night had the general of the Knights of Byzantium refer to Dawn as an "agent of chaos." Not only does this make a nice connection to the fact that she's always breaking Buffy's things, it also seems to me to be the reason that she is so drawn to Spike--also an agent of chaos, on a much less cosmic level. Spike's tricksterish qualities have been in evidence from the beginning--it would be nice to see this aspect developed a little more in Dawn, especially if, as the representation of Buffy's emotions, she can thereby get Buffy to accept a little more emotional chaos and not be so rigid and controlling.
[> [> [> [> [> The Knights of Byzantium were not the most objective source of information... -- cjl, 14:42:45 06/11/02 Tue
Slightly O/T...
They knew that if Glory got her hands on the Key, she could bleed Dawn dry, and open the Gates of Chaos. But they also believed the power of the Key could ONLY be used for evil, and it was their sacred mission to destroy it.
Were they right? Did they have all the facts?
If I'm given the choice between trusting the word of an army of religious fanatics who were given a single directive ("destroy!") 800 years ago, or the monks--I think I'll go with the monks. Gregor sneered at the thought of the Key as an agent for goodness in the universe--but even the generals sometimes don't know all the details of the battles they're fighting.
Buffy defended Dawn's existence to Gregor in raw, emotional terms, and Gregor dismissed her reactions as illogical and irrelevant. But given Buffy's literal attachment to Dawn, she might have a better idea about Dawn's true purpose than Mr. Warrior of God.
I think one of the main plot points of Season 7 will be that Dawn isn't a Tool of Chaos or Order anymore. She's no longer a glowing green ball of energy, she's human--so any action she takes as the Key from now on will be her CHOICE.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Knights of Byzantium were not the most objective source of information... -- leslie, 15:02:24 06/11/02 Tue
Oh, trust me, I'm not just taking them at their word--for one thing, they obviously believe that being an Agent of Kaos is as bad on BtVS as it was on Get Smart! And me, for my part, I think that chaos is a necessary part of human existence--I would like to see Dawn as more of an agent of useful chaos (as I believe Spike often--inadvertently--is).
However, the general, while biased, *is* correct in saying that Dawn as the Key is the agent of chaos, because what her Key-ish function is, is to break down the barriers between worlds, to erase boundaries, and to return the universe to its primordial state of Chaos--very Hesiodic, very Greek, very appropriate from someone from "Byzantium."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> A Key's function is always double-sided -- cjl, 16:47:01 06/11/02 Tue
Even if Gregor was right about Dawn as the instrument of "chaos," I think he had only half the story. A key's function is always double sided: keys open doors, but they also lock 'em up tight. The universe is always in constant motion, order disintegrating into chaos, chaos eventually resolving itself into order.
In the context of BtVS, chaos is necessary to break down undesirable barriers hindering the growth of the protagonist (Buffy). But eventually, this chaos must resolve itself into some form of order in order to bring the cycle back to the beginning. Dawn is an agent of "useful chaos," but that Key-ness will ultimate re-create Order in Buffy and the Scoobies' lives at a higher level.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A Key's function is always double-sided -- aliera, 16:58:49 06/11/02 Tue
And perhaps it will remain a function of who she is not something to be *used*? Or just one aspect of who she is? If they develope her more deeply as an independent character next season and also Spike will they still be able to function as aspects/shadows of Buffy?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly. She's a person now and she would make the choice. -- cjl, 19:26:04 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> If Spike were to connect with someone other than Buffy (Spoilers) -- Exegy, 14:47:52 06/11/02 Tue
I like the point you make here, leslie. This would mark a major change. If Spike were to identify with someone other than his "love interest." Or if he were to identify with Buffy as someone other than his love interest (although I don't think this can happen now, one never knows).
I do believe that Spike's relationship with Dawn will be a major focus next season (especially if ME chooses to develop these characters for a spin-off). BtVS has already planted the seeds for S/D interaction. Her coming to him in SR, prompting him to visit Buffy (ooh, Dawn once again revealing Buffy's feelings, telling Spike how hurt he's made Buffy--Dawn the key to what's going on with her inexpressive sister). Inadvertently setting up the potential rape (she must know she played this necessary part). Her willingness to seek comfort with Spike after Tara's death. Her dismay at learning of the potential rape (and not believing Spike could be capable of such an action). Her disappointment in Spike and in herself for prompting him to visit Buffy (mirroring Buffy's disappointment in having led her lover along all season, bringing him to the scene of his break-down). Her own confrontation of Buffy, taking her sister to task for over-protecting her. And her continued feelings for Spike, feelings of hurt betrayal and sadness and also a longing for reparation (reflecting Buffy's emotions).
I think that next season Dawn may once again be the key for Buffy. Her interactions with Spike will give the viewer added insight into Buffy's conflicted emotions. I also believe the progression of S/D will play at least as large a part as the progression of S/B in redefining Spike's character and then his relationship to the Scoobs. Yep, Dawn's surely going to have something to say about Spike. Major issues. Ah, I can't wait.
Thanks for giving me more brain candy, leslie. Your posts just blow me away. God, you're a fantastic writer!
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Quick reply - chaotic energy? (Spoilers) -- shadowkat, 18:32:50 06/11/02 Tue
"Incidentally, the F/X rerun last night had the general of the Knights of Byzantium refer to Dawn as an "agent of chaos." Not only does this make a nice connection to the fact that she's always breaking Buffy's things, it also seems to me to be the reason that she is so drawn to Spike--also an agent of chaos, on a much less cosmic level. Spike's tricksterish qualities have been in evidence from the beginning--it would be nice to see this aspect developed a little more in Dawn, especially if, as the representation of Buffy's emotions, she can thereby get Buffy to accept a little more emotional chaos and not be so rigid and controlling."
I should check the other responses first I know...but this excited me. "Agent of Chaos". Dawn has been representative of the tumultous emotions brimming beneath Buffy all season long. Buffy is and always has been such a contained character, heroically stoic. Not showing emotion. Not venting. Not talking about it. Which makes sense when we learn in Normal Again that the first time she reacted and told people her fears she was institutionalized. Keeping your "slayer" identity would entail a little stoicism. But up until Dawn's appearence in Season 5 - Buffy's emotions appeared more evident. Since then she seems to shut more and more down while Dawn appears to more and more frequently let her emotions out. By the time Buffy returns from the Grave in Season 6 - we begin to see shades of what is going on in Buffy in Dawn. The episodes in which Dawn's emotions and whining finally erupt annoying all of us are interesting: Wrecked (after Buffy has slept with Spike and feels deep Shame), Gone (again with sleeping with spike and the invisibility and the avoidance, acting chipper and carefree, while Dawn is angry and yells), DMP (Dawn is the one worrying about Buffy's future at DMP, while Buffy acts almost mechanical and depressed - only showing emotion when she thinks something is wrong at the place), Dead Things (Dawn is horribly upset with Buffy for turning herself in - neglect of your emotions?), finally erupting with the "get out, get out, get out!!" in OAFA. Dawn begins to simmer down when Spike and Buffy break up and Buffy starts hanging with Dawn. But that's not all it takes - it takes NA and Buffy finally recognizes Dawn as Real for the chaos to abate and for the Buffy/Dawn relationship to start on the mend. Dawn is actually comforting Buffy in Entropy.
The chaos has shifted from the child or metaphor for emotions to the shadow self - Spike.
The other thing - Dawn seems to spur a type of chaos in people around her. We have Glory switching to Ben and back again. We also have Joyce's tumor and ensuing craziness - which occurs when Dawn arrives. Before that - Joyce is fine. Leading me to wonder if Dawn may have inadvertently been responsible for Joyce's death? Later we have Spike - who realizes he love's Buffy and the arousal of chaotic conflicting emotions in him in OOMM - granted they were always there but could Dawn's arrival have brought them to the surface, churned them up? Then there's Willow who appears to be gaining in power all through Season 5, jumping at least three levels from adept to pro by the time we reach Season 6. These are the people who seem to spend the most time around Dawn. Except for Xander and Anya and Giles who appear to be fine...so perhaps I'm reaching on this one?
If Dawn is an agent of chao that does not mean she is evil. Chaos doesn't necessarily equal evil. I think both evil and chaos exist in Buffyverse, sometimes working hand in hand and sometimes opposing each other. Dawn as a key opening numerous dimensions at once with no control or stopping point = chaos. But as Spike put it in Tough Love-Dawn is not "evil". Just as Spike - might be described as causing chaos - but not necessarily evil on some occassions, hence the Mayor's decision to get rid of him in Season 3. Angelus on the other hand was far more interested in "evil" than chaos. As was the Mayor. Then there's Glory who was chaos plus evil.
So if chaos doesn't equal evil - and order doesn't always equal good (Wolfram and Heart and the Mayor are good examples of this)- perhaps you're right what is required is a balance between the two, a balance I'd argue each character has been striving for since Season 1.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Quick reply - chaotic energy? (Spoilers) -- aliera, 04:13:30 06/12/02 Wed
"But up until Dawn's appearence in Season 5 - Buffy's emotions appeared more evident. Since then she seems to shut more and more down while Dawn appears to more and more frequently let her emotions out."
And the references you and others had made to dawn voicing Buffy's feelings and how they are rarely seen together with Spike is important. It's also possible that her connection may not be entirely symbolic but she may also simply sense Buffy's feelings. And those internal feelings are so powerful that she is compelled to verbalize. I'd be very interested to know what went into her construction beyond Buffy and the energy. She's obviously not a clone.
I agree. Buffy reminds me of someone's who's shell shocked or in such internal pain that she can't fake quippy Buffy. From alst night's Afterlife she says she was away longer than 147 days. I wonder how much longer. In the train of avoidance it's interesting that after she revealed that she belives she was in heaven, I don't belief we see any further discussion with her by the SG.
On chaos as a force, I would only add that Buffy would be the symbol of how order is often portrayed. Rigid, black and white perceptions, not necessarilly good.
Interesting thread.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Chaos as a force vs . order -- shadowkat, 05:36:53 06/12/02 Wed
"On chaos as a force, I would only add that Buffy would be the symbol of how order is often portrayed. Rigid, black and white perceptions, not necessarilly good."
Been thinking about this off and on for a while. About
order not necessarily being good and chaos not necessarily being all evil.
ME goes out of their way to hint at it.
1. First there's Ethan who advises Giles in A New Man (granted it's hard for us to believe anything he says after he turns Giles into a demon - but maybe that was Ethan's way of getting Giles to see another perspective? Giles who has always equated evil with chaos and order with good b/c of the council's teachings.) While they are drinking, he chides Giles for his religious intolerance - ie. Ethan's worship of Chaos. Then he tells Giles that the government (order) is trying to reign in chaos which is scaring the demons. At the end of the episode Giles repeats this warning to Buffy.
2. The Initiative - Prof Walsh is all about order. So is Riley. In fact Riley evidently can't handle a world that isn't about rules and borders and end zone. He even tells Buffy after he is forced to leave the Initiative - that his whole life he had order, rules, black and white, he's not good with gray. This is after Buffy tells him she left the council because it was too rigid (and a whole host of other reasons). Riley is the epitome of order.
When he leaves Sunnydale - he partly leaves because his life no longer makes sense, there's no order. And the army has dangled a wonderful carrot in front of him - go with us, stamp out the chaos wrecking South America, come back home. Remember Riley was farm-bred Iowa boy - with the routine well ingrained in him before he even joined the army.
When he returns. Life is orderly for him. He has a wife. They have safe houses. They kill demons and their eggs - to save humans. They don't think about whether demons are good or bad. They wear black, no other color. There are clear rules. Heck he even has a dental plan.
To Riley - chaos is the enemy. No wonder Buffy never told him about Dawn. I wouldn't.
But we see what order can do. The government tries to organize the demons turn them into supersoldiers. Someone asked me recently why they placed neural transmitters in them. Well they were creating super soldiers. The neural transmitters controlled demons ability to kill. They'd dissect them, possibly control them, treat them like dogs.
Place order upon chaos. This isn't much different from Wolfram and Hart - who removes Saijhan's solidity so they can use him but he can't cause chaos by killing and destroying everything in sight. (See The Price, Ats Season 3). When Angel and Lilah seek the spell to open the portal to free Connor - the room they walk into is completely white, devoid of color and orderly. Order = evil here.
And the scene reminds me of the white elevator leading to the Initiative and the white sterile hallways of the Initiative's underground headquarters. Adam also was extreemly orderly in his evil.
His frustration with Spike - was how chaotic Spike was. Spike doesn't think the whole plan through. Spike is and has always been the antithesis of order. Making him a difficult minion.
3. Speaking of Spike - let's go back to the Annoited One, another character who liked order and ritual. If you failed, you gave your life. The time to attack was St. Vigeous, not before. But Spike is impatient, he jumps the gun and when the Annoited One scolds him - Spike sets him in a cage and thrusts him the sunlight.
The Annoited One is like the MAster - who one might describe as an agent of chaos - but is he really? Seemed pretty much into order to me. In Harvest - he sets up a vessel to orderly grab blood for him and set him free. Everyone has a role. His group is higly organized. No dissension in the ranks. If so - you're dead. And when he gets his way in The Wish - he sets up a mechanized orderly way to get blood. Bring the food in, drain it, move on.
No more needless carousing.
4. The Mayor - very orderly. Hates messes. Occassionally gets annoyed with Faith for not being more orderly. We know what the Mayor will do. No chaos there. He hates chaos.
Everything must be clean. And boy the rituals.
5. The only villains who seemed chaotic are Glory, DarkWillow, and Angelus. The others seemed frighteningly orderly. Even Warren seemed into order. Setting up each phase of his plan, setting up his own rules. He didn't know how to handle the chaotic elements that interfered with his plans.
All this leads me to believe that we need to make a distinction between chaos and order and good and evil.
chaos and order are clearly not meant as synonymes for good and evil. They are separate.
There can be good order = Riley and Buffy and Giles
and bad order = Adam, the Mayor, Prof Walsh, the Annoited One
Just like good chaos = Dawn, Spike (on a good day), Faith,
Willow, Anya
and bad chaos = anya (who also can be identified as order), spike, angelus, drusilla, faith, darkwillow, Glory,
The need for balance between order and chaos and good and evil is clear. Question is how?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Chaos and Order, Humans and Robots -- Exegy, 07:31:20 06/12/02 Wed
And there's another point to make: Buffy and the Scoobs aren't always about order. Compare the approaches of the gang and the Initiative. The Scoobies are more flexible; the Initiative is more rigid. Part of Riley's problems with Buffy stem from the fact that he cannot adjust to the relative lack of order in his life. He needs someone to tell him what to do (huh, more on the mother figure). He can't be separated too long from his black and white ideals--he goes through withdrawal (still suffering the after-effects into season six, see OOMM and the episodes where Riley needs his vampsuck "fixes"). Eventually he must leave to seek that missing order (joining to another female figure who is particularly rigid in comparison to Buffy--Stepford Sam, uh I mean Sam).
We see that the "Riley ex machina" scenario of AYW isn't what it seems (for all its flaws, this episode has a very interesting subtext, rich in metaphorical possibilities). Riley hasn't claimed a god's status; he's retreated back into his comfort zone, the security and order provided by the Initiative's way of thinking. As you say, black and white again. Limited, and thriving only in the narrow comfort zone. It's when you risk the full spectrum of life (the disorder and the order) that the difficulties arise, the difficulties that have made the Scoobs look pathetic next to RileyGod. But the Scoobs are really more heroic than Riley is at the time; they haven't retreated into a world of narrow absolutes in quite the way he has (and as "control freak" Willow did earlier in the season, before she admitted she was out of control, addressing her problems). The Scoobs are (at the time of AYW) at least open to growing out of their problems, moving forward while Riley has moved backward.
It's interesting to note the hero worship of Riley, though. This adoration shows the viewer that the Scoobs have very little insight into their own respective status. They see the good little Initiative soldier as a positive model when they should be seeing a negative example, something to avoid. You do not want to retreat into a second childhood, to become as you were. You want to move forward, to develop from your problems.
It's also interesting to note that Buffy seems very attracted to Riley. He's representative of the old ideal, the ideal of the "normal girl" who has a mother and a nice boyfriend and a relatively calm existence. Contrast him to Spike, the trickster figure who indulges Buffy her chaotic leanings. Riley's the comfort zone; Spike's the uncharted territory that Buffy is afraid to explore (hence closing herself off to him, only indulging in sex). Buffy's attracted to the black and white way, the easy life of "godhood." She's jealous of the robotic Sam, perhaps jealous of the loss of her own 'bot self (having to deal with the messy real world herself and not as a robot). She's still trying to retreat into that mechanized world (until NA, when the "normal girl" reality is denied).
I think it might be interesting to look at all the robot imagery over the seasons (Aprilbot, Buffybot, Stepford Sam, Robot!Riley, Ted, etc. Some interesting comparisons ... hint, hint, 'kat!).
Okay, so we've looked at how the Scoobies are "disorderly" in comparison to Riley. How about in comparison to the CoW? Although the Watchers focus on tight discipline, the Scoobs' flexible approach is more successful (same when contrasted with the Initiative). Also, there are intimations of corruption within the hierarchy of the Council. Think of the acronym: CoW. Then remember the acronym of another corrupt organization: MOO. Both titles refer to the bovine sensibility: stay with the herd, that narrow range of comfortable order, and you will be fine. Yeah, fine and stulted.
One needs a little chaos in order to grow (Buffy ventures into the night, the unknown, in order to slay her personal demons). It's all about the development of one's humanity, not the development of the highly ordered machine (what Riley has become, complete with techno gadgets).
I could write more on this, but I have jury duty :-(.
Anyone care to bite?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Another great post! You almost make me want to see AYW again -- ponygirl, 08:32:44 06/12/02 Wed
Almost... I think you've really hit the nail on the head with why AYW bugged so many people (well aside from some plot and structure problems), it's that all of the Scoobs let themselves be so diminished by the example of Riley and the Sam-bot. We can see that Riley's choices represent a failure, but the characters can't. Argh, frustrating. But many lovely points in this thread about order and chaos. Balance seems to be the ulitmate goal in the Buffyverse, and enough flexibility to cope with the changes life throws you. In reading this thread I kept thinking of the teaser of Real Me, Buffy balancing on a stool, while Giles talks about inner clarity and such, then Dawn shakes things up and Buffy, along with her whole world, goes crashing to the floor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Green grass and high times -- auroramama, 14:08:30 06/12/02 Wed
The life you've got is reality, with all its flaws and difficulties right in your face. The life someone else is living is only a daydream to you; naturally it seems preferable. This is the way men and women have behaved since the beginning, or at least since Exodus: a little wandering in the desert is enough to make people nostalgic for slavery in Egypt, where at least the food was good.
I think Riley and Buffy each desire what the other has. Riley admires Buffy's freedom, her imagination, her instincts -- she's a natural-born superhero. He loves her for it, and it makes him crave her; he wants to get close to it, to be part of it. Buffy envies Riley's training, the way his soldiers function as a disciplined team, the peace and confidence he gets from following the orders of someone he idolizes. She tries to join the Initiative; she tries to be Riley's girl. They see in the other what they would like to have for themselves, but the only way to have these things is to be those people, and in the long run, they can't.
The Scoobies are awed by Riley and Sam in AYW for the same reason: this is what they don't have, this is what they are not. If they actually tried to live that life, they'd soon be reminded why they don't. Even Xander, I think; though he could have been Riley's buddy, I don't think he could have been Riley's team member. He's tempted by structure, but just isn't good enough at taking orders. Even when his self-esteem was low, he tended to improvise.
Chaos has one advantage over order, though: it's way cooler. It's acknowledged as sexier, at least in every crowd I've been comfortable in. Order is what people feel hemmed in by. (And yet there are people who love a uniform, right?) It's certainly more exciting to be around. So when fans are evaluating characters on the order-chaos continuum, they'll usually place the characters they dislike on the side of order. Good or bad may be a secondary consideration.
On the other hand, BtVS fans are multifarious. Someone surprise me: tell me that Buffy Summers is rigid and judgemental and thinks in black and white, *and that's why you love her so*. C'mon, I dare you...
auroramama
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Green grass and high times -- shadowkat, 18:35:20 06/12/02 Wed
"The Scoobies are awed by Riley and Sam in AYW for the same reason: this is what they don't have, this is what they are not. If they actually tried to live that life, they'd soon be reminded why they don't. Even Xander, I think; though he could have been Riley's buddy, I don't think he could have been Riley's team member. He's tempted by structure, but just isn't good enough at taking orders. Even when his self-esteem was low, he tended to improvise."
Insightful description of Xander's hero worship and envy of Riley. This is why Xander prefers Riley to Angel and Spike and all the other boys Buffy's dated. As Xander puts it in his Restless dream - "society should have rules and borders and an end zone". He has fantized about joining the military but realizes he's not cut out for it and finally gets past this regret. But still enjoys the knowledge and compliments regarding it - "see I clocked field time" - in Checkpoint and even way back in Season 2 - he dresses as a military guy for Halloween and continuously quotes SGt. Rock in season 5. He likes the order - the black and white, but he can't get it to fit into his life.
I have found on some of the boards that fans who adore Xander also appear to adore Riley. Not all fans...but the B/X shippers appear to. They seem to respect the order.
And they really despise Spike. Angel they like actually - because Angel also tends to like order - think about it, Angel goes by the prophecies, follows the rules, asks the oracles for advice and helps whomever Cordy's vision send him after. It's not until later in Season 3 that they advertise - still orderly.
Buffy in contrast - isn't really all that orderly. She breaks the rules all the time. Giles gets furious with her occassionally for this, then realizes that it has saved their butts on more than one occassion.
As a friend told me on the subway - its obvious that chaos and order aren't synomous with good and evil and chaos is actually a good. My friend is a libertarian. Or likes to think of herself as one. In our society - there are those who prefer chaos, libertarians - who in the pure sense, would prefer less rules, or the extremists - anarchists who want none at all. While dictatorships can be all rules.
Clearly the Scoobs wouldn't be happy in the dictatorship - that's what The Mayor, Principal Snyder, and to some degree Adam represented. But chaos as represented by Glory who didn't want rules at all - is no better.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chaos and Order, Humans and Robots -- aliera, 16:02:57 06/12/02 Wed
Very interesting post- lots of areas touched on. I'm not as knowledgeable about the episodes but if you don't mind a few thoughts...
"She's jealous of the robotic Sam..." I think there was also regret for loss of possibilities, remember that when he left was the beginning of her downward spiral...you mentioned this in part but I think she may feel her life truly fell apart when he left. He was only the rebound boyfriend; but I felt there was healing there for her.
"One needs a little chaos in order to grow own 'bot self (having to deal with the messy real world herself and not
as a robot). She's still trying to retreat into that mechanized world (until NA, when the "normal girl" reality is denied)." Yes she shut down, except for extreme stimulus the slay and Spike. I know we don't see much slaying, but her absences where marked, extensive. The killing I think as much as Spike.
"I think it might be interesting to look at all the robot imagery over the seasons (Aprilbot, Buffybot, Stepford Sam, Robot!Riley, Ted, etc." Yes, I think they were the idiot savant...the court Fool who is free to speak the truth.
One needs a little chaos in order to grow...and isn't part of true adulthood about the balance? True to your self your vision. The marathon not the sprint. The nuances of grey. Determining your true when choices become increasingly complicated? A world of order only is sterile. Death leads to life leads to death leads to rebirth.
AYW I saw the problems but also felt that the return of Riley was in part due to Giles absence. Under the mud there's still a diamond.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chaos and Order Spoilers S 3,6 & X-files -- Age, 09:33:50 06/13/02 Thu
Good catch on the acronyms. You certainly clarify diverse aspects of the series, bringing them together to show their context. This is such a great thread.
The cow image is associated with mechanization in 'Double Meat Palace.' Carter in a recent X-Files episode used the same imagery(bison) to show how Scully protects her baby from danger by sending him(William, an allusion to 'Buffy' and 'Angel' through the name?) to be brought up by a normal family. In that ep, the star imagery above William's crib alluding to the struggle with the aliens and their desire to take over the human population is replaced with bisons on a mobile.
Life is that struggle between chaos and order, between blood and bone, change and structure. The two really are aspects of the same thing, but we as sentient beings have to experience the pain that chaos and change bring. We are at a certain disadvantage also in that we don't come out of the womb fully capable of being grown ups. Of course that's because each new generation has to be flexible enough to face the demands of conditions that have changed since the previous generation of human beings were kids. We have to learn and grow into this world, this new world that has never existed before because despite its primary appearance and function as structure, it changes all the time too.
In 'Band Candy', Whedon had Giles sum up some of the thinking behind the series in the possible answers to the practice SAT question he poses to Buffy: a) violence breeds violence; b) all things must end; c) all systems tend towards chaos. In these solutions, Whedon shows how hard becoming an adult really is(in an episode about the rites of passage): we want to exercise power to protect ourselves, yet this simply fans the flames of violence/vengeance; we want to live forever, but we see an end to our lives(I'm reminded of that great line from the song 'Life in a Northern Town' about childhood (and leaving it behind) where the morning lasted all day, all day;) and living is about the work of maintaining a balance between chaos and order.
Anyway, just some thoughts to add to this great thread.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dawn, Chaos and Order (Part 2-1/2 out of III) -- cjl, 07:47:08 06/12/02 Wed
A lot of points to cover, and I've got a lot of work at the office today. So I'm taking the lazy way out and cribbing from myself.
Regarding Dawn and Chaos--from my post above:
_______________________________________________________
Even if Gregor was right about Dawn as the instrument of chaos, I think he had only half the story. A key's function is always double sided: keys open doors, but they
also lock 'em up tight. The universe is always in constant motion, order disintegrating into chaos, chaos eventually resolving itself into order.
In the context of BtVS, chaos is necessary to break down undesirable barriers hindering the growth of the protagonist (Buffy). But eventually, this chaos must resolve itself
into some form of order in order to bring the cycle back to the beginning. Dawn is an agent of "useful chaos," but that Key-ness will also ultimately re-create Order in Buffy and
the Scoobies' lives at a higher level.
_____________________________________________________________
In case the implications of that weren't clear...Yes, I think Dawn will seal the Hellmouth.
Regarding Dawn's effect on the Scoobs--from Part II of my Dawn/Prometheus post:
_________________________________________________________
The triad Shadowkat describe[s] in reference to Buffy, Dawn and Spike--would-be adult, inner child, and shadow self--has, in one way or another, been the working pattern with ALL of the Scoobies this year. In fact, it seems as if their well-hidden Shadow Selves and Inner Children have erupted into their conscious minds like explosions from a psychic volcano. Xander's suppressed rage and trauma from years of parental abuse scuttled his wedding; Willow's deep-seated resentments are about to send her into a death spiral; and Spike, once a Demon and Proud of It, has been confronted by his Inner William, and it's mentally ripping him to shreds. The only character in town (we haven't seen Giles lately) who seems to be immune is Tara. Why? Because she's already resolved most of her inner conflicts (see "Family") and is the most serene and well-balanced character in the cast. (Which means, of course, that her story is finished and she has to die.)
It might just be possible that Dawn's continued presence on this plane of existence is affecting EVERYONE, knocking down the Scoobies' mental barriers before they were ready to confront the horrors behind them. (Perhaps the Buffy/Dawn tradeoff at the end of "The Gift" wasn't a perfect substitution, and we're seeing the residual effects.) This theory works on a metaphorical level as well. With Joyce singing in the Choir Invisible and Giles departing for the Mother Country, the parent/child dynamic of the Scooby Gang has been flipped on its head. In the new configuration, Dawn is the baby, and each of the Scoobs has been thrust into a quasi-parental role. Dawn's presence has, in effect, prematurely pushed them into adulthood, and this season has made it abundantly clear that NONE of them are ready for it.
___________________________________________________________
Chaos and Order are never good or bad things in themselves, but ALWAYS bad (according to human perception) when either one is allowed to dominate. When Order rules with an iron hand there is stasis, repression, lack of growth. When Chaos rules, the very concept of civilization goes down the toilet. We get the Scoobs in Entropy, and we see the ascendancy of primal instinct. We would get the world of the Old Ones--and there's no room for people there.
Don't want to sound like a broken record, but the Key is BALANCE. And I mean those last four words in all the ways you can imagine...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> D&D Allignement ? :) -- Ete, 09:07:07 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> True Neutral is the perfect alignment, apparantly :P -- Traveler, 18:28:35 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This reminds me of a classic SF story (for the life of me, can't recall who wrote it...) -- cjl, 09:06:32 06/13/02 Thu
It took place in an indefinite future, at the end of one of those great cycles of civilization. The remnants of this latest version of Ancient Rome or Imperial Britain resided in a gleaming city, while all around there were these bands of anarchist bandits, tearing away the decaying pieces and cannibalizing them for their own use.
The story was never as simple-minded as Great Civilization = good and Anarchists = bad. There was a definite sense that while the fall of the Great Civilization would be a tragedy, it had outlived its time, and the anarchists were simply helping along a natural process of change.
[This is driving me nuts. WHO WROTE THAT DAMNED STORY?!]
I think all the posters on this section of the thread have been saying the same thing: sometimes you need a little chaos in your life to push you to the next level, to move things along, to keep from stagnating.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy heroically stoic? -- Sophist, 08:46:08 06/12/02 Wed
Buffy is and always has been such a contained character, heroically stoic. Not showing emotion. Not venting. Not talking about it.
I can't agree here. Until her mother died, Buffy was not only emotional, but proud of it. Remember her lecture to Kendra in What's My Line? "That would be anger you're feeling." "My emotions are a total plus." High school Buffy had emotions and showed them.
We have seen much less emotion from Buffy since Joyce died. The reason for this lies in her progressive depression (so wonderfully expressed by Exegy, Rahael, Ixchel, yuri, and others in that thread). This is a very different cause than stoicism.
Buffy has always had some aspects of the stoic, some of the passionate. She was balanced between the extremes of Kendra and Faith. She lost that balance in S6 but may have recovered it now.
[> [> Re: The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 3 of 3, Spoilers) -- leslie, 16:02:35 06/10/02 Mon
Interesting exegesis, Exegy!
I don't know where this point leads to, but you made me realize one thing: Buffy, in "heaven", is happy, believing that everything is all right, all her friends and loved ones are safe, and her job is done.
Except it isn't. The SG are doing their best to maintain a strong front against the demons and vamps of the world, but they can only keep up the facade for so long. Even if they had not tried to resurrect Buffy, the Buffybot, as we see, could only last so long--sooner or later her real nature would be discovered and the Hellions would be roaring into town.
I know it's been very hard to keep the metaphoricity of BtVS in mind this season--it's all been just a little too real--but it seems to me that the Buffybot is a very good metaphor for what Buffy herself was going through over the summer--going, mechanically, through the motions. In which case it's interesting that the Buffybot has a tendency to somewhat Freudian slips where she reverts to her original Spike-sexbot programming, in light of Real!Buffy's incipient affair with him. It's also interesting that when Buffy has to get a job, she works in a fast food restaurant, the ultimate mechanization of organic sustenance. (Tangential note here--it consistently cracks me up that the secret of Doublemeat Palace is that the food is "texturized vegetable protein"--i.e., some kind of soy burger, which should be really quite healthy--with BEEF FAT added for taste--adding the most UNhealthy part of real fast food back in! I think this really should underscore how unreal and unhealthy Doublemeat Palace is for Buffy--not just unhealthy fast food, but obscenely modified, doubly-unhealthy fast food.)
Hmm, this was not in my head when I began writing, but it seems to me that there is another kind of mirroring going on here between the beginning and ending of the season--it starts with what Buffy perceives as violence against her in the SG's ripping her from "heaven" (which is not so much the mental hospital as her robotic emotional state), and ends with Spike's violence against her in his attempted rape. (Another tangential note--let's spell out "attempted rape" each time, shall we guys? "AR" is starting to become dangerously euphemistic.) Spike, Giles, and Dawn are not involved in the resurrection, but each plays a significant role in Buffy's emotional rebirth at the end of the season--Spike (always the one who has to do the dirty work) forcing her to face her own complicity in their derailed relationship, Giles returning to force her to laugh again, Dawn forcing her to stop being such a bloody control freak.
We've been focusing on Willow's descent into "addiction" as the price *she* has paid for her part in Buffy's resurrection, but actually, all four of the participants have paid pretty heavy prices--Tara is dead, Anya is a vengence demon, and Xander has been forced to see the seeds of his father in him but still doesn't know what to do about it and has lost Anya in the process. For Giles, Dawn, and Spike, the resurrection, although unlooked-for, has also not been the joy they originally thought it would be--Buffy is back, but she is not living up to their expectations and dreams--not the responsible young adult woman Giles hoped he had reared, not the loving mother-substitute Dawn craves, not the goddess Spike longs to worship. Where *do* we go from here?
[> [> [> Re: The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 3 of 3, Spoilers) -- shadowkat, 12:27:26 06/11/02 Tue
" know it's been very hard to keep the metaphoricity of BtVS in mind this season--it's all been just a little too real--but it seems to me that the Buffybot is a very good metaphor for what Buffy herself was going through over the summer--going, mechanically, through the motions. In which case it's interesting that the Buffybot has a tendency to somewhat Freudian slips where she reverts to her original Spike-sexbot programming, in light of Real!Buffy's incipient affair with him. It's also interesting that when Buffy has to get a job, she works in a fast food restaurant, the ultimate mechanization of organic sustenance"
I love this comment! I agree the Buffbot does seem to make freudian slips that relate to the sexual relationship and the two characters reactions to it. Spike wants an emotional one where they connect. Buffy wants it to be purely physical almost mechanical - Buffybot's line: "I should listen to you Spike. I admire your mind as much as your washboard abs." Causing him to flinch and retreat
in pain. He also wants the unpredictability. The Buffbot
as he tells Dawn is too predictable, an automaton.
Buffy comes back almost mechanical - turning herself off yet with him - she exposes raw physical emotion, but ironically this is not what he wants either. Nor does Buffy.
Detaching herself from the world - while it appears to work for a time...just causes more problems, much like in Dead Man's Party - the last time she tried to do this in Season 3. Interesting in Season 3 - she comes back and tries remain detached, her friends challenge this and pull her back into the swing of things - telling her buried emotions come back and get you. Yet in Season 6 - she doesn't appear to get this until much later...is this because unlike high school they aren't in each other's face all the time? They led separate lives so their problems are easier to hide?
Probably the reason some of us get away with more experimentation in our twenties than we ever would in high school.
"(Another tangential note--let's spell out "attempted rape" each time, shall we guys? "AR" is starting to become dangerously euphemistic.)"
Agree...I am quilty of this as well. I do it to lessen the impact of the word when I think the writers for whatever reason clearly chose it to be as raw and hard hitting as it was. Lessening the impact does the writers, actors and others a disservice. So I will try to keep this in mind in future analysis and spell out the term.
"Spike, Giles, and Dawn are not involved in the resurrection, but each plays a significant role in Buffy's emotional rebirth at the end of the season--Spike (always the one who has to do the dirty work) forcing her to face her own complicity in their derailed relationship, Giles returning to force her to laugh again, Dawn forcing her to stop being such a bloody control freak."
Also agree - in Afterlife and Flooded we see Giles, Spike and Dawn's restrained reactions at seeing a dream come true.
It's a combination of restrained joy, disbelief, fear for what she is and how she's handling it, and quiet concern.
They almost treat her like a piece of glass. Then slowly, realize, that she isn't what they pictured her to be in their heads. What is that old saying - absence makes the heart grow fonder? I think they all painted Buffy as more than she was. As you note later - the mother, the hero.
When she falls off that pedestal - it's almost harder on them then it is on her. And they all react somewhat violently. Giles leaves. Dawn screams and steals. Spike...well tries to rape her. All of these reactions force Buffy to wake up and deal. The last - violently so - since in some ways it is similar to her being forcibly ripped from heaven. All season long Buffy has been forced to deal...it's not until Grave, that Buffy chooses to deal.
Crawls out of the ground with her sister...and meets the beautiful day. I think choice makes all the difference here.
In the end: Buffy chooses to crawl out of the ground because she wants to, not because she's suffocating in a coffin, She chooses to let Dawn help her. Giles chooses to return to Sunnydale sans glasses and chooses to give Willow a powerful douse of good magic (he hoped she'd take it from him), Spike chooses a soul, Xander chooses to stop Willow from destroying herself and the world. Anya chooses to help and stay with Giles. And Willow finally, chooses to stop wracking her vengeance on the world and accept Xander's comfort. I think their choices give us a good indication of where they are headed. It's the first time all season that
the characters stopped running, avoiding, or escaping from their problems - they finally chose to deal with them.
Great post Exegy and leslie!!
[> [> [> [> Season Three- Spoilers S3 thru S6 to finale -- Age, 20:10:17 06/11/02 Tue
Your comments about the Buffybot and third season coincide with some ideas I've been having.
The Scoobies bring back Buffy as the thing they need to replace the Buffybot. They act in a self-centred manner, just as Buffy acts in a self-centred manner in wanting to stay in adolescence/heaven. By not wanting to come back, Buffy becomes the thing, the Buffybot, but slowly comes back to life.
The last three seasons have been, in my opinion, one arc moving the Scoobies from adolescence to adulthood. The foreshadowing in season three, the senior year of high school, in several episodes, of what was to come, is symbolic of the Scoobies knowing that change(mayor's speech rams this home) to a different perspective is necessary, ie knowing where the journey's got to lead, it's just a hard slog to get there. In fact Prof. Rosenberg in 'Gingerbread' gives us this idea by lecturing Willow about adolescent reaction to the pressures of incipient adulthood. 'Gingerbread' -with Joyce's admission that the town's problem is silence, Giles' comment about humans being mortal animals, and Prof. Rosenberg's comments about patriarchy and identification with mythological icons- seems to lay out much of the basic ideas/imagery of the series.
Season four is about personal initiative, defining reality for oneself and the beginnings of the deconstruction of the black and white world of childhood thinking.
Season five is about accepting mortality/parenthood and eschewing the idea that we can be as if gods by giving into our animal instinct for self preservation by either hiding in a herd like Ben(and fighting death intellectually) or hunting enemies down and gaining enough power, like Glory, to destroy even mortality itself(an illusion as we are mortal beings.)
Season six is about seeing into patterns, our hidden programming: the influence of the parents on the child, Xander's father(abuse and prejudice), Willow's(denial and permission to violate others through superior intellect) and Buffy's(denial and desire to protect) mothers.
Dawn as key and hope is the personification of the idea that if these characters have any hope of becoming adults they must unlock aspects of themselves hidden away. We have to accept mortality or we will never get past the stage of trying to find something to make us feel/be as if we are immortal(mostly attachment to power(Glory) or to those people or sets of beliefs we think have the power to make us immortal(Ben to Glory, the god); then we can move on to seeing the patterns in ourselves and do something about them if necessary. These are the challenges of the animal(Glory as beast) and robot(Buffybot) stages. Whedon's thesis is rebirth into adulthood as becoming fully human, and not reverting simply to instinct or programming; hence the characters choosing.
Joss Whedon seems to have known where he was going with this movement to adulthood from the beginning. Season three has intimations of the future. If you look at 'Gingerbread' there is foreshadowing of the ep 'Restless'(the blue print, it seems for season six) with Snyder's 'I love the smell of desperate librarian in the morning' line and foreshadowing of the sixth season finale. In 'Band Candy' the need to become a grown up is paired with the continuation of the human species. In 'Faith, Hope and Trick' the Scoobies have their first step(literally out of school(metaphor for confining and defining as adolescent) towards that journey of personal initiative. In 'Graduation Day' Faith mentions a few lines that foreshadow what is to come: 'Miles to Go' is the allusion to the poem about stopping in the woods on a winter's night, foreshadowing the sustained metaphor of the dark woods that freeze Buffy in season six, with counting down from 7-3-0 giving us the time when Buffy would die. These items are also then associated with little Miss Muffet, Dawn. They highlight the journey, the personal initiative which leads to death, darkness, dawn, and adult responsibility.
'Graduation 'Day' has the Scoobies and their generation taking their birthright to grow up back from the mayor who wants to be immortal and powerful. It isn't just a coincidence that his human weakness/mortality is associated with fatherhood. That human weakness then gets changed to human strength when Xander in the season six finale simply stops Willow from saving/destroying the world, reflecting the change from adolescence(the self centred-ie one can influence the whole world or bend it to ones will- cartoon superhero ideal of 'Tabula Rasa') to the simple recognition that we are just human beings who feel pain, joy etc, but who can make a real and significant difference to those around us. Buffy the superhero couldn't save the world at the end of season six or this would have been a throw back to an adolescent point of view; in some sense Whedon is saying that while it is a painful place, from an adult's point of view, the world doesn't need saving. This saving is the cartoon superhero version of reality, the version that Xander rejects in his anvil joke on the cliff in front of the satanic temple in the sixth season finale.
Dawn as key opens the door to the darker side of all the Scoobies because in Buffy's absence they become her surrogate parents. Whedon may be expressing the idea that when we grow up the pattern we have internalized kicks in as we cease to be the figures acted upon by authority, school, parents etc and start to be agents of authority ourselves. Dawn as offspring then becomes the catalyst by which this opening to pattern takes place(though not the only one.) In other words she had to be the key and she had to be named Dawn to represent hope, the light of the new day after opening to darkness, and rebirth. It was all part of one process.
Also as human being and tool/key Dawn represents the struggle between recognition of the self/other as human or thing, with her shoplifting representing the question of which we value more, the human or the possessions, the things, we keep, paralleling Buffy's use of Spike as a thing(does she keep going back to him, using him as a thing, or does she let him go, forsaking him as her sexual possession and treat him (and herself) like a human being.) For most of the season Buffy doesn't see Dawn, the human being, and so we are left with Dawn, the thing, the Key. The colour of the Key as green light may signify that the opening to pattern may be a painful process, but a natural one. The point is however that the avoidance of pain would tend to keep people from seeing into the pattern, but open and operating, it would influence and possibly take over the individual, hence the robot idea.
If you notice in the third season 'Gingerbread', the ep in which Amy is ratted(with season six seeing her deratted and the story of that episode continuing as Willow ripens in her pattern, as Rack says in the finale) the movement is from parental protection, terror, anger and then vengeance/punishment as Joyce doesn't go through the grieving process for the normal daughter she thought she had and lost when she found out Buffy was the Slayer, but instead uses power to make the bad girls go away. In season six finale which, I believe, is based on 'Gingerbread,' the movement in the grieving process is from vengeance to protection(and then to human) as Willow attempts to save the world, protect all people from pain, as the 'Never Again' slogan of 'Gingerbread' is brought to its ultimate conclusion. In this symmetry of movement from protection to vengeance and then its reverse Whedon may be expressing the theme of season six and really the three season arc itself, ie that of having to work through the process, as opposed to avoiding it. In fact, the Hansel and Gretel allusion of 'Gingerbread' foreshadows the dark wood metaphor and the process of being forced into the wood, facing the witch and finding ones way out again; in 'Gingerbread' also we see Willow's mum and the pattern she's laid down in Willow, with Willow's adolescent response, her rebellion, like the rebellion of Satan against God (in the Jossverse the adolescent rebellion against the natural order) to her mother's not seeing her, as she calls on Satan, with this culminating in the satanic temple in the sixth season finale.
Also in 'Gingerbread' the long stakes and ropes tying Amy, Buffy and Willow become the satanic temple steeple and the snake wound around the she-demon, Eve figure, signifying that Willow is carrying out in her attempt to cleanse the world of pain exactly what MOO was trying to do in the third season ep; and the fire imagery of 'Gingerbread' has been augmented to a scorching of the whole world in a repetition of the theme of deconstruction of absolute opposites, that by attempting to create a heaven where there is no pain, the opposite is created as symbolized in the hell fire; saving and destroying the world have been merged together(as in season five hell and god were in Glory) to show the conclusion of an apocalyptic vision which really is simply the adolescent wish for all to be okay; the flip side of this being despair, putting the world out of its misery one way or another.) Also in 'Gingerbread,' Xander and Oz turn up last in the rescue attempt and Xander as simply himself finally catches up to Willow in the sixth season finale; also, the theme of vigilante justice/revenge versus human law gets played out at the end of season six; not only this but Joyce mentions, among other things, in her rally speech, people getting skinned(Warren?)
In the sixth season opener, the deconstruction of absolute opposites is expressed in the hell that Buffy creates by being in 'heaven' without responsibility. Her absence from Sunnydale does leave the town open to demons. Just as the Scoobies needed to go forward in their lives, Buffy needed to remain alive, but none of them was prepared to do this at that point. It's hard to become an adult; and there has been a long litany of dusted vamps to show just how many human beings don't make it.
In regards to the comments about 'Dead Man's Party' I think that Whedon had to expand the separation of Buffy from the Scoobies this season in order for them to see into their own patterns(the third season ep as foreshadowing?). Had Buffy remained this triumphant(yet still alive) mother saving her daughter, then her maternal instinct and her pattern of protection may have had her slaying the Scoobies' demons for them. This need for separation is shown in the episode 'Tabula Rasa' as Joan(of Arc, an allusion to 'Gingerbread' and being burned at the stake?) and Randy separate from the Scoobies who symbolically go down into their subconscious/sewers to fight their demon/the vampire.
One last comment. In this movement from adolescent thought to a more adult perspective, what seemed quite telling, so to speak, is, in the sixth season finale, when Giles has no answer, no explanation to give to Buffy as to why she's back. It is this recognition that we know nothing very much at all about the most fundamental questions of life. It is the change from seeing the grown up as the all-knowing god to the same as us, a human being who feels pain and knows very little. It is the final deconstruction of the childhood myth of the adult as god.
Anyway just some thoughts to add to the discussion.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> Wow ! awesome post. Post more Age, please ! :) -- Etrangere, 04:40:48 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> Fascinating as always, Age. I echo Ete's request: please post more often! -- Exegy, 06:31:46 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> Sprinting to my printer! That was an amazing post! -- ponygirl, 09:27:03 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> Agree - great post. -- shadowkat, 18:54:49 06/12/02 Wed
I particularly like your use of Gingerbread to show the theme of growth. It's a fitting episode since Gingerbread focuses a great deal on Willow and her relationship with her mother, before and after Gingerbread we really don't see Willow's parents, they are merely referred to. After Gingerbread we begin to understand why.
Gingerbread also demonstrates how Joyce has become a sort of surrogate Mom to Willow and Xander, just as Giles has become the surrogate Dad. Joyce is the one who brings Sheila into MOO and gets Sheila to notice Willow. If it weren't for Joyce, I seriously doubt Willow's mom, Sheila
would have taken much notice.
Now in season 6 - we have the fruitation of Willow's upbringing. An upbringing that echoes Amy's. Both girls are ignored by their mothers - except to the extent that they please them. Willow's mother dresses her like a doll - picking out her clothes until Willow begins to rebel.
Amy's takes over her body. Amy and Willow are both tied to the stake by their parents and townspeople in Gingerbread - their magic a source of rebellion and empowerment, threatens to destroy them. Amy gets out by turning herself into a rat. She is deratted in season 6, by Willow. And once again Amy and Willow are having fun with magic, ignoring the consequences which Rack even brings to both of their attention. Telling Amy that she deserved to become a rat for attempting such a difficult spell beyond her abilities. But hey they are just experimenting like they were in Gingerbread. But the magic experiment by the
end of Season 6 blows up in Willow's face...sorry...
it's time to take responsibility, you can't just play like you did in high school and have the superhero kill the monster, particularly when you've become the monster.
I agree Whedon had this arc clearly laid out from as early as Season 3. He may have made a few minor changes - such as Tara and OZ. But it's there, in the Mayor's last speech about how they are moving to the next level and never will be the same. It's also there in the Wish - where the world can be altered by the smallest act.
After reading Whedon's interview in Rob's post above - I find it fitting that to end the adult theme arc - Xander and Willow take center stage. Instead of Buffy saving the day the way she did in Gingerbread by blindly staking the demon like some cartoon character dropping an anvil on the villain's head, Xander stops Willow by appealing to their long bond of friendship. In a way Xander and Willow represent the audience - the geek and the nerdy guy, the people who would have gone unnoticed if it weren't for Buffy. They are her chorus. Backing her up in every season finale. In Season 6, Buffy becomes the chorus and Xander and Willow take center stage, demonstrating that in real world of adult hood - there is no superhero. Just the chorus somehow coming to grips with their failings and saving the day.
Thanks for your thoughts! Wonderful post! Hope this was clear and added to the discussion.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree - Season One thru Six Spoilers to finale and X-Files. -- Age, 07:18:07 06/13/02 Thu
You make a good point in regards to the parallel between Amy and Willow in that the pattern of violation is expressed in Amy's case by the use of her body by her mother. This is paired with the violation of the natural order in that the mother wants to become young again. I keep thinking of the 'Snow White' fairy tale. 'Witch' is the first ep after the two-part series opener and in illustrating the need for parents to be grown-ups(and what happens when they want still to be adolescent), it introduces the themes that will lead to season six. I think Whedon knew what he had to say and when right from the beginning. I wonder how much Willow's and Amy's dabbling with magic wasn't yet another pattern created in them by their irresponsible parents, in that if they as people(and their sense of self) weren't taken seriously, then the consequences of the use of magic weren't taken seriously either by Willow or Amy. Like the three nerds of season six, it's all just play time....
The reversing of the central character and the chorus is a good point because we tend in our culture to idolize(ie make into gods) people who have certain talents. This has a dual effect in that we may always be trying to live up to an ideal, and, like Xander in the season six finale, feeling like we are less than we are; and also, we can then abdicate responsibility to others, rationalizing away our role as adults due to another's perceived superiority.
Yes, good point about 'The Wish'. Whedon is making it absolutely clear that adolescent wishing doesn't make the problems go away; they just get worse. Carter made the same point in one ep of 'X-Files' where Mulder gets three wishes from a genie. He wishes for peace on earth (much as Willow tries for in the sixth season finale) and ends up removing all human beings, all creatures from the face of the earth. Throughout the series the inability to communicate and the need to deny have been basic problems stopping the Scoobies from sorting through their issues. It's all denial and wishful thinking.
In 'Gingerbread' I hadn't seen Buffy's staking of the demon in a cartoon way but now that you mention it. I'd seen the scene as a deconstruction of the male superhero rescue based on power with Giles taking the female(witch/incantation) role and Cordy using water rather than fists, with the guys(who would be the traditional young buck male superheroes to the rescue) tumbling through the ceiling after the damsel in distress had already saved herself.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Season Three- Spoilers S3 thru S6 to finale -- Rufus, 01:01:01 06/13/02 Thu
In regards to the comments about 'Dead Man's Party' I think that Whedon had to expand the separation of Buffy from the Scoobies this season in order for them to see into their own patterns(the third season ep as foreshadowing?). Had Buffy remained this triumphant(yet still alive) mother saving her daughter, then her maternal instinct and her pattern of protection may have had her slaying the Scoobies' demons for them.
The thing with demons and Buffy is that though she is the hero she is only capable of slaying specific demons. The demons that are owned by each individual Scooby are beyond the capacity of the Hero to triumph over. This season each Scooby fought their personal demons of fear of loss, fear of growing up. The reason Buffy became peripheral to the final confrontation is that her power was meaningless to the true situation at hand. To grow up the Scoobies had to stop looking soley to Buffy for solutions to their demons, and through finding that they could transcend their demons, grow up and complete their journey to adulthood....which doesn't mean they will all of a sudden become perfect.
Buffy as a symbolic Joan is someone that could only burn up under the pressure of being the solution to all of the worlds and SG's problems and demons. Buffy regressed a bit, paused and played a bit before being forced to move on to take her place as a mentor to the Key, or Dawn, who would have done more than gone Mom, Buffy, Tara, whaaaa! if she had been nurtured instead of ignored.
It is through the seperation and regression of each character this year did we come to a point where Giles could laugh and point out that sometimes the simplest answer is to ask for help.
[> [> [> [> just occurred to me -- anom, 23:33:36 06/11/02 Tue
"'Spike (always the one who has to do the dirty work) forcing her to face her own complicity in their derailed relationship, Giles returning to force her to laugh again....'" [leslie quoted by shadowkat]
I don't know why this triggered it--maybe seeing these 2 things juxtaposed, maybe something in the context provided by shadowkat...or maybe I just had to see it twice. I wonder if Buffy told Giles that Spike tried to rape her. I doubt it--it would probably have brought the gales of laughter to a sudden halt. She does tell him she's been sleeping w/Spike. As far as I can remember (late again, not gonna check the tape or shooting script), everything she told Giles before he started laughing was things she felt she couldn't control: Xander's leaving Anya at the altar, Anya's becoming a vengeance demon again, Dawn's being a klepto, her own sleeping w/Spike. The 1st 3 are things that were really beyond her control; the last--well, sure, she had a choice, but she felt like she had no control over it ("Why do I keep letting Spike do those things to me?"). The rape attempt--the threat of an ultimate loss of control--might have been, paradoxically, outside of this category because that was when Buffy reasserted control, by stopping Spike.
When we tune back in to the laugh session, Buffy & Giles are talking about Normal Again. Those events started out of Buffy's control, but they ended by her choice (to leave the asylumverse & to take the antidote). The same could be said of Spike's rape attempt, but I think by this point the dynamic has changed. Buffy may even be trying to tell Giles things that will keep the laughter going, & that particular piece of news doesn't qualify. We don't know what other things she's told him in the interim, but I don't think that's one of them.
"...in Afterlife and Flooded we see Giles, Spike and Dawn's restrained reactions at seeing a dream come true....They almost treat her like a piece of glass. Then slowly, realize, that she isn't what they pictured her to be in their heads....When she falls off that pedestal - it's almost harder on them then it is on her." [shadowkat]
This occurred to me longer ago--I may even have posted on it before, &/or someone else may have (I can't always keep up; sorry if this has been covered before). Remember how Dawn crawled into bed w/the Buffybot? She wanted nothing more than for Buffy to be back, alive. But when she gets what she wants, it's not the way she thought it would be. She has the real Buffy back but can't seek comfort from her by sleeping close to her--not in the same bed, not, I'd guess, even in the same room. Dawn could at least get physically close to the Buffybot, but not emotionally close. When Buffy comes back, Dawn can't get close either way.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: just occurred to me -- shadowkat, 05:56:04 06/12/02 Wed
1. Why didn't Buffy tell Giles about the attempted rape?
Or did she?
I sincerely doubt it. She didn't want Xander to know. Nor did she tell him it happened. He leapt to the conclusion and she didn't deny it. (Xander walks in - sees her on the Bathroom floor. Is about to berate her. Stops. Sees a bruise on her naked thigh similar to a fingerprint which she quickly covers and she's obviously been crying and is shaking. He asks if Spike hurt her. She says he tried to but didn't. He is about to go after him. She says don't.
Then Willow barges in - does she tell Willow? Doubtful.
Does Xander? Maybe. Xander only tells Dawn because Dawn throws Spike at him as a comparison of being more manly.
"Spike would have gone back and fought" (ie. not running away like you!) Xander - "yeah after he tried to rape her."
He didn't intend to tell her - it slipped out. And how much you want to bet Buffy berates him for it? Assuming she gets the chance.) Attempted rape or rape is not something you talk about it - it's too embarrassing too raw. Particularly when the perpetuatrator is someone you care about. Most victims (even though they shouldn't feel this way) feel responsible - the last thing they want to do is a) talk about it or b) tell anyone. It would be easier for Buffy to describe her sexual exploits with Spike then to ever reveal to Giles that he almost raped her. It would be letting Giles know that she let herself be placed in a position of weakness and vulnerability. Buffy wants to forget the attempted rape ever happened. I honestly can't imagine her ever speaking of it or talking about it with anyone outside of possibly Spike ever again. Remember Buffy's not exactly the sort who talks about things - Giles literally had to trick her into talking about how she sent Angel to hell.
So why tell him about sleeping with Spike? Probably b/c it no longer seems to matter - everyone knows. And Spike is gone.
Metaphorically this also works - since as you state it is the one time she took back control.
2."This occurred to me longer ago--I may even have posted on it before, &/or someone else may have (I can't always keep up; sorry if this has been covered before). Remember how Dawn crawled into bed w/the Buffybot? She wanted nothing more than for Buffy to be back, alive. But when she gets what she wants, it's not the way she thought it would be. She has the real Buffy back but can't seek comfort from her by sleeping close to her--not in the same bed, not, I'd guess, even in the same room. Dawn could at least get physically close to the Buffybot, but not emotionally close. When Buffy comes back, Dawn can't get close either way."
Haven't seen it posted, but then I don't always keep up either. ;-) Good point. Dawn is able to emotionally connect with the Buffbot, but struggles to connect with Buffy.
Buffy won't let her sister near her emotionally until Dawn literally screams at her. It's striking that in Gone, Buffy misunderstands Dawn's anger - thinking it's about letting her get hurt. It's not. It's about the emotional distance.
How much you want to bet Spike was the one that comforted and took Dawn to the hospital in Wrecked while Buffy stayed with Willow? Dawn seeths with jealousy the next morning.
And in Afterlife - Buffy won't stop walking from room to room, even though Dawn pratically begs her to stop and sit down with her. It's not until Spike arrives that she actually sits down and she and Spike have a quiet moment
which is soon joined by Dawn. I can't help but wonder what might have happened if it took the SG longer to arrive.
[> [> [> Agree entirely about the Buffybot. Additional notes ... (Spoilers) -- Exegy, 14:19:16 06/11/02 Tue
The events depicted in BtVS this season have been all too real, as you say, but the show remains as rich as ever in metaphor (I think it has become even richer over the past few years). The viewer just has to examine the show more closely, looking for the increasingly sophisticated subtext.
To continue with your example, I definitely view the Buffybot in both literal and figurative terms. On the surface level, the "real" Buffy is literally dead, replaced in her role by the 'bot. Our hero is completely buried; a cheerful automaton has taken over. Now read the subtext, and you see the description of someone "dead" to the world, totally disengaged. Operating mechanically, not present at all. When the real Buffy emerges from her grave, stepping back into the world, we see the trauma surface. And we see Buffy run away from it.
But she can't escape into the earth again. She must remain in the world; the Buffybot "replacement" has been forever destroyed (Spike mentions that there's no salvage possible for the robot this time). Someone has to fulfill the calling, play the part. The brief stint of unlife is over. Someone has to return to life ... however unwillingly.
We see the Buffybot acknowledge this as her own time ends.
From Psyche's transcripts:
(Bargaining, Part II)
BUFFYBOT: (looks around in confusion) Where did I go?
DAWN: What?
BUFFYBOT: Where did I go? I was here. Here. But I ran away.
DAWN: (confused) I-I don't ...
BUFFYBOT: No. Not me. The other Buffy. Yes. The other Buffy.
DAWN: Buffy?
BUFFYBOT: I don't ... I don't ... know where she ran off to. Maybe--
She freezes in mid-word, staring blankly.
Oh God, this subtext is rich. The 'bot speaks to Dawn, and she's actually describing the psychological condition of Buffy. We see the 'bot recognize the emergence of the real self after a summer of disengagement. Buffy is actually "here here." But she can't deal with the chaos that awaits her. She can't accept the suffering weight of the world anymore. And so she runs away from the destruction of the robot self and seeks escape again in oblivion. She wants to lose herself, to lose again her physical connection to this harsh realm.
Except this time she really will end herself. No hero's paradise awaits her. Only a long fall into the void. Because she cannot accept her place, she cannot live the fate she's been given. Buffy turns back from a leap into the abyss, but we see her slowly edging that way much of this season.
Her emotions remain buried as she does her best robot impression. She stares while the problems flood her, as blank as the dead 'bot. Trying to relive that period of bliss in the summer, and failing because that period is no longer an option for her (although she wants it to be). She's back in this world now, and she has to live her life if she's to find any fulfillment. Buffy finally turns her back on returning to the womb in NA. She accepts the painful world of the Slayer by forever denying to herself the possibility of the Asylumverse. Her return to this world is complete by Grave, when she climbs out of her grave fully intact.
Robotic Buffy no more!
One more note on the Buffybot reflecting Buffy:
In Intervention, the 'bot notes, "You're right. [Spike's] evil. (smiles) But you should see him naked. Really."
Buffy grimaces and shakes her head, perhaps unwilling to admit that she's had some thoughts about "naked" Spike herself. She certainly hasn't held off about touching him (although she's touched him in a way that's acceptable to a Slayer/Vamp relationship ... by hitting him). But she's tolerated his presence, caught on to many of his sexual innuendos. Highly unusual behavior for a Slayer who shouldn't want to have anything to do with a vamp (and tells herself this repeatedly). Something more is going on here. We see the hidden attraction when Buffy gives Spike a tender kiss on the lips at the end of Intervention. I'm sorry, no matter how grateful she is for his sacrifice ... she wouldn't give him a kiss unless there was some underlying desire there. Hey, you caught it first with the Buffybot!
Just an interesting little note, I think.
[> [> [> [> Re: Agree entirely about the Buffybot. Additional notes ... (Spoilers) -- leslie, 14:40:03 06/11/02 Tue
And, to return to the thread a while back about the significance of images in the credits, I think it is *highly* meaningful that the last image this season is of the Buffybot. It's who she's been all season, despite the resurrection.
[> [> [> [> [> And some say the credits are just for looks ... not on BtVS ! -- Exegy, 15:05:54 06/11/02 Tue
Just a few random notes on the credits:
First, I totally concur on that last shot of Buffy ... bot. It's who she's been all season, despite the resurrection. Can't put it any better than that.
Second, let's take a look at the credits for Willow. There's a lot of focus on her relationship with Tara; Willow defines herself in terms of the other. She's good because of Tara's love for her, not because of herself. Willow alone is a loser. But with Tara she's whole, a vibrant person. With Tara ripped away from her, she goes on a vengeance spree, nothing left to live for. And here we have that scene from Tough Love (the scene with the knives, Willow's most dynamic shot in the credits). Reminding the viewer of the foreshadowing of Tough Love, warning of what will happen if Tara truly goes. Willow rampage! With the lover dead beyond hope of recovery ... a slightly different dynamic with very different consequences.
Last, I want to make a couple notes on Spike's credits. He's pictured on his motorcycle with Dawn, doing something noble and heroic (describing his actions from the early part of this season). Yet he's also pictured as his "Big Bad" self on the subway, reminding the viewer of how dangerous he can be ... a slayer of Slayers. Not someone to play around with and then discard. Oh no. Leading right back to my discussion of the unhealthy S/B relationship.
Anyone else have some relevant observations on the imagery of the credits relating to events of this season?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And some say the credits are just for looks ... not on BtVS ! -- aliera, 16:24:28 06/11/02 Tue
Buffy fighting blindfolded
Spike tied up and holding up two fingers
Anya dressed as a bunny what she fears most
Xander split in two
Willow using dark magic
Hand reaching up out of a grave
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And some say the credits are just for looks ... not on BtVS ! -- shadowkat, 18:46:12 06/11/02 Tue
And Tara blowing Dust just before we switch to Spike about to steal the bike. she blew the dust to blind the SG to her true Nature in Family
Spike driving off in his car sing my way at the end of
Lover's Walk
Willow being the last one credited in Giles normal place in the credits - she used to be immediately after Xander, Anya has taken that place.
Dawn with a hand bursting through a wall at her from Spiral
Buffy hugging Riley from Season 4
And the very first one - the demon heads peeking out of the hotel symbolizing hell on earth from the Gift.
[> [> Re: The Emotional Burial of Buffy (Part 3 of 3, Spoilers) -- redcat, 20:03:30 06/10/02 Mon
These are all three great posts, Exegy. I enjoyed reading parts of them in your original posts, but they work especially well put together in a set of ordered essays like this.
I feel there is still a great deal to be revealed about Dawn's function as a "key," some of that hopefully in S7 by the writers, but also in the type of ongoing structural analysis of her placement in relation to Buffy and the other SGs in S5 & S6 that you are doing here and that others (cjl, shadowkat, leslie, etc.) continue to do. Your work here on the burial and resurrection of Buffy is extremely helpful!!Thanks!
[> [> Brilliant analysis! -- ponygirl, 06:31:21 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Very nicely done, Exegy! Great analysis! -- Dyna, 08:44:09 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> Out of adjectives, so I'll just give you this...db -- Doriander (trying for a two-thumbs-up!icon), 14:38:02 06/11/02 Tue
[> [> [> Thanks to everyone for the compliments! -- Exegy, 15:10:16 06/11/02 Tue
[> This has been an extraordinarily rich thread! Much thanks to everyone! -- redcat, 09:06:21 06/12/02 Wed
[> [> Ditto. And I'm keeping it alive so that it doesn't get buried. -- Sophist, 13:19:12 06/12/02 Wed
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