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vampires/biting/time it takes until death -- ghady, 02:58:21 07/05/04 Mon

I have painstakingly TRIED to make sense of this, but I CAN'T. Sometimes, we see a victim being KILLED mere SECONDS after being bit by a vampire. Sometimes a SLAYER (buffy) falls to the ground after one tiiiinnyyy bite (master). Sometimes, like in "All the Way" (S6), a MERE MORTAL, manages to survive a seemingly very long and gruesome bite. And then, in Graduation Day 2, Angel spends a VERY long time draining our favorite little Slayer, and does she die? NO! Does she INSTANTLY faint? NO!! SO, what is it then??? Is the painnnn too much sometimes that they faint? Do the vamps sometimes hit an artery, a vein, or a nerve and sever it, thus leading to an almost instant death?? Or are the writers making like (God forbid) the writers of Charmed and changing things at their every whim??

One other thing: throat-slitting. Wesley's throat is slit very savagely and brutally (and deeply) by a razor-sharp KNIFE. He is left alone in the woods all alone and untended for a relatively long time. Nonetheless, he survives. KENDRA, however, gets her throat slit by A FREAKIN FINGER NAIL!!!!!!!!!! AND SHE DIES ALMOST INSTANTLY!!!! What's up with THAT??? Wouldnt it have made more sense for Dru to SNAP her neck, or mabe to stick her lovely nails into Kendra's trachea ans start ripping her throat apart from the inside??

Replies:

[> Re: vampires/biting/time it takes until death -- Kana, 03:32:39 07/05/04 Mon

I think the slower bites are drawn out by the writers for dramatic purposes, such as Angel and Buffy's love/bite scene.

As for the knife thing, i don't know. I suck at science Ghady, as I've said before, but one explanation could be Dru's vamp strength although I'm not sure about that.

[> [> Re: vampires/biting/time it takes until death -- skpe, 06:41:11 07/05/04 Mon

Dru had Kendra in a hypnotic thrall. And vamp strength might snap the necks of their victims we have seen them do that just by twisting the heads (remember how angelus killed jenny)

[> Re: vampires/biting/time it takes until death -- Ames, 09:20:18 07/05/04 Mon

I think Kana is right that it owes more to dramatics than science. It takes as much time as the writer and director need it to take, within the realm of possibility.

But remember that these things do vary wildly in real life too. People go into shock and die from a random cut that just happened to hit something vital. Other people suffer the most terrible injuries and somehow survive, just because of luck. When you throw supernatural effects into the mix, almost anything could happen.

Vamps probably bite in different ways - sometimes trying to kill, other times trying to draw it out for the pleasure. Or they may not always hit the artery exactly the way they wanted, but they are too eager to back out and try again once they taste blood (we never see that happen!). Even experts sometimes miss the artery when trying to give an injection, and that's when the target isn't struggling.

Of course it's not surprising that a Slayer could survive a vampire bite better than an ordinary mortal. That may even be part of the Slayer power package.

In Prophecy Girl, the Master had Buffy in some sort of supernatural trance, and his drinking from her broke a powerful spell that was holding him trapped in the Hellmouth. The supernatural backlash of that in combination with the drinking seems to have stunned her into unconsciousness. Buffy wasn't dead yet when he dumped her face-down in the pool (we had a discussion thread about this once before, and the fact that she coughed up water when she revived showed that she must have breathed it in after she fell into the water).

When Angel drank from Buffy in Graduation Day 2, he wasn't trying to kill her. Obviously he wasn't able to resist his powerful natural urge to drink, but it probably restrained him a little so that he was able to drink longer without killing her. And part of the scene was in slow motion for dramatic effect, so it may not have lasted as long as it seemed.

[> Re: vampires/biting/time it takes until death -- Pip, 09:32:32 07/05/04 Mon

I think the high speed deaths are dramatic effect - you usually have to loose over four pints of blood before you must have a transfusion to survive. Can be up to six pints depending on body mass. I really can't imagine even the most expert vamps gulping down six pints in a split second, so it's probably more that the director is not going to waste precious minutes of screen time watching every single victim being slowly drained.

Speed of death might also depend on whether the vampire bit into the artery, or the vein. Considering the pressure of artery blood, it might be that only more expert vampires bite arteries. Fledglings could start with the jugular vein.

[> [> Speed of draining -- Ames, 12:15:32 07/05/04 Mon

Good point, it would take a long time to drain 4-6 pints through a couple of puncture woulds, even at arterial pressure.

But I'd wager that a double puncture to a major artery leading to the brain, maybe combined with a little deliberate twist and tear motion to widen the gap, would drop blood pressure fast enough to cause the victim to lose consciousness in seconds. That may be what vamps do if they're trying to kill quickly, and they don't want to deal with a struggling victim. They might even just let the victim drop then if they're in the middle of a fight, or if they aren't particularly hungry and they've already enjoyed their quick taste of fresh blood.

[> Vampires/biting/time it takes until death will vary! -- Rufus, 09:56:44 07/05/04 Mon

La, la, la, la, la....magic clause!

Angel viewer awards on zap2it.com (TV Gal) -- skpe, 16:23:10 07/05/04 Mon

Here (insert your own drum roll here) are the 2004 Amy Award Winners:

Tell Me It's Not Over, aka Beloved Show That Was Cancelled
Winner with 56% of the vote: "Angel"
Runner-up with 21% of the vote: "Friends"

The Amnesiac Cougar Award, aka Most Ridiculous Storyline or Plot Twist
Winner with 26% of the vote: Joey and Rachel date on "Friends"
Runner-up with 21% of the vote: Chase's baby on "24"

The Bennifer Award, aka TV's Worst Couple
Winner with 35% of the vote: Vaughn and Lauren on "Alias"
Runner-up with 22% of the vote: Carter and Kem on "ER"

Get Off My Show, aka Worst New Character or Guest Star
Winner with 25% of the vote: Eve on "Angel"
Runner-up with 24% of the vote: Oliver on "The O.C."

Rewind: Let's Hear that Again Award, aka Best Quote
Winner with 39% of the vote: "Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon. Let's go to work." Angel's last line in the series finale of "Angel."
Runner-up with 17% of the vote: "Welcome to the O.C., bitch." Luke to Ryan on "The O.C."

'Til Death Do Us Part, aka Best Death or Character Exit
Winner with 45% of the vote: Wesley on "Angel"
Runner up with 16% of the vote: Ben (Brendan Fraser) on "Scrubs"

Emmy? We Don't Need No Stinkin' Emmy, aka Great Performance that Probably Won't Be Recognized
Winner with 45% of the vote: Amy Acker as Fred/Illyria on "Angel"
Runner-up with 18% of the vote: Lauren Graham as Lorelai on "Gilmore Girls"

Character You Love to Hate and Hate to Love, aka Best Villain
Winner with 32% of the vote: Lindsey McDonald on "Angel"
Runner-up with 30% of the vote: Julian Sark on "Alias"

Did I Have a Life Before This Show, aka Best New Show
Winner with 30% of the vote: "The O.C."
Runner-up with 19% of the vote: "Joan of Arcadia"

I Want that Hour (or Half-hour) of My Life Back, aka Worst Episode of the Season
Winner with 25% of the vote: "I Do and Oh No You Di-in't" (season finale) of "Will & Grace"
Runner-up with 24% of the vote: "An Affair to Remember" (Rory finds a study tree) on "Gilmore Girls"

Episode Most Worthy of an Immediate Rewind, aka Best Episode of the Season
Winner with 44% of the vote: "Not Fade Away" (series finale) of "Angel"
Runner-up with 20% of the vote: "Raincoats and Recipes" (season finale) of "Gilmore Girls"

Interesting Rumor About Buffyverse TV Movies (Here's hoping it's true)... -- Rob (liberally applying large grains of salt), 14:38:09 07/06/04 Tue

From http://www.geos.tv/index.php/article/geos/1032

Four Buffy/Angel TV movies planned?

Tuesday, 6th July 2004

Appearing on the Australian television show Rove Live, Buffy and Angel star James Marsters revealed he had been approached by Joss Whedon to star in at least one of four television movies set in the Buffyverse.

Marsters did not provide any detail on the movies other than that each would focus on one particular character, and that either all four would be made or none at all. As far as Marsters was aware, only he has comitted to the project so far.

We'd speculate that other prime candidates for movies of their own would be Willow and Giles, and perhaps Wesley, and that if all four movies were part of an all-or-nothing deal, perhaps this implies all four would tell smaller parts of a larger, overarching story?

Stay tuned to GEOS for further news on potential Buffy/Angel spin-offs!

Source: Rove Live

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A quartet of films, each focusing on a different character, sounds intriguing, although I still am very skeptical that it will actually happen. But if it does...cool beans!

Rob

Replies:

[> WELCOME BACK!!!!! -- lunasea (jumping up & down, offering appropriate smoochies), 15:14:02 07/06/04 Tue

[> Is TV movie really the right term here? -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:21:24 07/06/04 Tue

I mean, if there is a connection between them, doesn't that make them more of a mini-series? If they all have seperate stories, though, and air at different times, then I guess they would be TV movies, but I can't see that working as well. I know that, at least for me, one of the great things about a well done mini-series is waiting for the next installment on the following night. Doing the movies individually kind of takes away the momentum (I'd still watch them for sure, but I'm thinking more of people who were casual fans or never even watched the shows). So, we must ask ourselves, is the "all or nothing" thing in place because the four would build off each other, or is it just a bargaining ploy?

If this does end up happening, though. I just gotta say: WHOOPIE!

[> [> Maybe they could be considered four new series pilots! -- Ames, 08:53:37 07/07/04 Wed

[> Re: Interesting Rumor About Buffyverse TV Movies (Here's hoping it's true)... -- Wizard, 23:55:44 07/06/04 Tue

WOOHOO! (Joygasm)

Let's see... going with your four character movies theory... a Willow movie and a Giles movie are definite possibilites, especially the Giles movie, since it could be based off of ideas cooked up for the (aborted?) Ripper series. A Wes movie would rock, but unless Wes became a ghost I don't see how it would work. Unless he haunts Illyria, who also has development to make. A Faith movie is certainly possible, depending on Eliza's schedule. Would it be redundant to suggest that there could be a movie centering around Buffy and one around Angel?

[> quote from the interview (+ link to transcript) -- littletrigger, 06:05:37 07/07/04 Wed

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=5308

James: Yes, Joss Whedon. Who wrote, along with David Greenwalt, developed both Buffy and Angel, together. And, um, it was weird, because I was doing some ah just basic work for the show, voice over stuff and filling in bits and he came up to me and he s like Man I really like your work and I m hoping that you re still interested And he s, he s kissing me butt! And I m like What are you doin, Joss? And I told him, I said, Joss, stop it. Three lines, fifty lines, lead role, whatever you want man, call me. I m there for you, because frankly, you re one of the best writers I ve worked with. And ah, he said he wanted to do a Spike movie. TV movie. But it s also contingent upon other characters. He wants to do four TV movies and one of them is Spike. But, and so I said yes, right, immediately, I m your bitch. (everyone laughs) But I don t know if the other people signed off on it. So it may or may not happen not because I didn t sign off on it. But it may not really sell as a single project.

The Next ATPo Gathering (July 1-4, 2005): No Sleep 'til (we're all gathered in) Brooklyn! -- cjl (power mad dictator), 21:28:47 07/06/04 Tue

FEAR ME!

For three days in the summer of 2005, your paltry mortal lives will be as toys in my nigh-omnipotent hands! [Peal of evil laughter]

Okay, everybody feel nice and secure now?

Good.

As you all may know, "We The Gathered" at the Chicago meet (just ended) have decided that the next full-scale ATPo Board Meet will take place in my hometown, the town so nice they named it twice, the greatest city in the world--

("Walla Walla, Washington?")

No, sillies....

NEW YORK CITY!

Apparently, I have volunteered to organize this event. I don't remember volunteering, but I may have been hopped up on a beserker sugar rush from Sarah's ATPo birthday cake(s) and anom's near-endless supply of organic chocolate bars. My mind also might have been partially destroyed by watching "Once More With Feeling" in French. (Nonetheless, I will accept the responsibility.)

My plans for the event have already undergone some slight revisions from my original proposal, but interesting twists have also been added. Unfortunately, my idea of placing everyone in a single Brooklyn "bed and breakfast" near my apartment is simply not practical. If we only had 20 people visiting from out of town (and presuming anom, shadowkat and myself stayed in our own apartments in NYC), I might have been able to swing ten double rooms in a big b&b. But everyone tells me there's probably going to be more than 20 coming in, and I don't want to divide the group. So the b&b concept is out for now, and I'll look for 15+ rooms of reasonably priced hotel space somewhere in the area. (I reserve the right to return to the original idea if I can find a local "cluster" of bed and breakfasts that can hold us all...)

Activities: what, are you kidding me? This is New York, my droogies! Bursting at the seams with both fun and edutainment! I noticed that this year's meet in Chicago was a bit less "watching viddies" and a bit more "let's see the town with our friends!" I plan to swing that ratio over to the sightseeing side even further. There will be tickets to the Mets or Yankees (or Mets v. Yankees, if that's how the schedule works out!) for some lucky baseball fans. There will be high-quality, disgustingly cheap (and honest-to-gosh FREE) music everywhere in town during the July 4th weekend, including in my Prospect Park backyard. There are more affordable world-class museums in New York than any city has a right to possess. There are also ridiculously expensive
Broadway tix available if you really wanna go there. [Rolls eyes]

But I'm planning something unusual and extra-special.

This is very, very tentative folks, but I might (just might) be able to set up a public, "Rocky Horror"-style OMWF singalong in a local Brooklyn theater for the night of Sunday, July 3rd (tentative date). Think 100+ rabid Buffyphiles singing their hearts out. Think lyric sheets, teeny foam rabbits ("Bunnies!") and mustard packets ("Fury!") for all. Think massive doses of anti-hallucinogens for cjl if he believes he can actually pull this off.

And for all those who have been enraptured by the tales of Joss' Shakespeare readings with the cast and crew of BtVS and Angel, there is the New York Public Theater's glorious tradition of staging Shakespeare's plays in the beautiful Delacorte Theater in the midst of Central Park. This year, the Public is presenting Jimmy Smits and Kristen Johnston (the big blond chick from "Third Rock from the Sun") in Much Ado About Nothing. (She can do Shakespeare fairly well; I wasn't too thrilled with him in Twelfth Night....) Next summer--who knows? I'm going to write to James Marsters' website and suggest that he warm up for his cinematic MacBeth by performing Shakespeare in the Park right here in New York. (Hey, I'll give it a shot.) But even if James doesn't appear, I guarantee an evening to remember.

Plus: Monday, July 4th. Fireworks!

You're probably thinking to yourselves: "He's overbooking us. We're never going to fit this all in." And you're right. We will need down time and group hug time, and ritual sacrifice (with pie) time. But a number of these activities will shake themselves out. I will, undoubtedly, have a nervous breakdown halfway through the weekend. So everybody will find time to do what they want.

I will need tips about booking hotel rooms from LittleBit and Rob. Sarah says she knows of an inexpensive but well-situated Manhattan hotel. Anybody else with suggestions are welcome to lob them over the net (before the nice men in white suits throw the net over me.)

What say you all?

Replies:

[> Only 360 days 'til the NY meet! -- Jane, 22:05:17 07/06/04 Tue

Not that I'm counting. Seriously, cjl, I am psyched for this. It just sounds fabulous, and if anything can top Chicago, this will be it. In fact, I told my best friend Sue that it was going to be in NYC next year, and she instantly converted to Buffyism. I told her she could come along, if she makes the appropriate ritual sacrifices...

[> Sounds great... -- Rob, 22:10:04 07/06/04 Tue

Only advice I have for now is don't feel too bad if you have to cut back on any of the massive plans. I didn't even plan a fraction of this many things, and I almost imploded on at least eight or nine separate occasions! Sometimes what seems like "the simple stuff" can be far more frustrating than it has any right to be. Also, the most fun I had at this meet was the together time in the conference room. If there are too many activities where people are splitting up over the city, we may not have enough time for the actual hanging-out together as a group. I vote that at least one of the days there be less activities.

Just a suggestion...If you extend your search to the in-the-city-area, I was researching last year and I seem to recall the Marriot in Times Square had reasonably good group prices on rooms, and conference room. I didn't go much further with it though, because the Chicago one seemed so much better. Oh, well.

Also, re: Broadway show tickets, I go fairly often, and if we do get a large group of people going, particularly if we go as an "official" group, we might be able to get a good deal on a show. A friend of mine's mother holds a conference every year in the city, and always arranges for everyone in the group to go to a show. Last year I believe they got Lion King tickets for around $25 each. Now, that's a much larger group and are an official organization, so I doubt we could do that well, but I wouldn't be surprised if we could get a good deal on a less blockbuster show, or off-Broadway, even.

Rob

[> [> Oh, and, btw, THANK YOU for making it in New York this year!!! -- Rob, 22:12:21 07/06/04 Tue

I cannot tell you how psyched I am that an official ATPo Gathering is going to be less than an hour away from my house!!!

And, uh, maybe the East Coast will be more appealing to some of our UK friends. Wink wink nudge nudge.

Rob

[> [> [> second that. can i second-through-twenty-second that? -- anom, 22:37:00 07/07/04 Wed

For so many great reasons. Starting w/the people who'll finally be able to be there! like, oh, shadowkat, aliera, maybe some of the posters who showed up in the days of the big NY meets, & from up & down the east coast, even from overseas! Then the fact that'll I'll be able to go for subway fare (which I hear may be raised again by then...>sigh<). All the stuff having to do w/its being NEW YORK CITY!!! that cjl & Rob mentioned. Plus something they didn't (how could you guys leave this out?): great restaurants, many of which aren't even all that expensive! After eating mostly hotel restaurant food this past weekend, that's taken on even more importance....

[> [> [> [> Re: second that. can i second-through-twenty-second that? -- LadyStarlight, 05:27:15 07/08/04 Thu

Plus something they didn't (how could you guys leave this out?): great restaurants, many of which aren't even all that expensive! After eating mostly hotel restaurant food this past weekend, that's taken on even more importance....

It was the $10.68 US chicken salad sandwich and Coke that got to you, right?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: second that. can i second-through-twenty-second that? -- ladyhelix, 14:50:33 07/08/04 Thu

I think it may have been $2.95 for the 16 oz. fountain coke LadyS! That's what got me!! Yep - that's US dollars folks.

(Can you imagine me when I can get serioiusly caffeinated?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: second that. can i second-through-twenty-second that? -- Jane, 19:35:47 07/08/04 Thu

No, it was the $2.50 US for a cup of coffee! (Of course, imagine my embarrassment when I complained and they said, but refills are free!) I look forward to a gathering within walking distance of all those fine dining establishments. Not that we think food is important or anything...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oddly enough... -- Rob, 07:53:00 07/09/04 Fri

...if we steer clear of the fancy restaurants, we shouldn't find food that is nearly as over-priced, for the most part! Except the coffee. That tends to be expensive. Because it's "trendy" and whatnot.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> not really... -- anom, 15:40:35 07/09/04 Fri

...me being a vegetarian & all. And it wasn't even the prices (well, not just the prices) so much as the food itself. I like restaurants where I have more than 1 choice on the menu, & where they actually tell you everything that's in the dishes. And where the food is, y'know...good.

(Um, Jane--I still owe you for 1/2 of that lunch wrap! Can I get that to you some way?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Seeing as how you couldn't eat it., it's on me! -- Jane, 19:12:33 07/09/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> except i could... -- anom, 19:52:08 07/10/04 Sat

...or at least I did, once I pulled all the little cheese shreds out. So I say I still owe ya.

And LadyS, I'm not sure what you mean about the same boat. The issue for me w/cheese is the rennet, not the dairy, & the kinds of cheese in cheesecake aren't made w/it (or I wouldn't have eaten any). Or do you mean you have your own issues w/cheesecake?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> OK, I 'll collect in New York next year! -- Jane, 21:34:48 07/10/04 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: except i could... -- LadyStarlight, 08:12:43 07/11/04 Sun

I meant that there was sharing involved and then you paid for it -- so I owe you for at least half a slice of cheesecake. Or I could buy a dessert next year?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, my goodness sakes! -- LadyStarlight (blushing), 19:30:17 07/09/04 Fri

(um, anom? Remember the cheesecake? Now I'm in the same boat you were.....)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> i thought we took care of that...i'll email you! -- anom, 17:31:17 07/12/04 Mon

[> [> Avenue Q! Avenue Q! -- d'Herblay, 15:36:08 07/07/04 Wed

Because of the "Smile Time" connection, y'know.

[> [> [> Excellent choice, and I hear they have good group rates. -- Rob, 19:31:11 07/07/04 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Avenue Q! Avenue Q! -- cjl, 18:42:48 07/09/04 Fri

Sounds good to me. Although I hear the puppeteers may be taking their act on the road in order to fleece--uh, share the magic with the American public at large. Unless they're training substitutes to continue the Broadway run (a la Blue Man Group), we might be out of luck.

OTOH, we could always see Blue Man Group....

J.

P.S. Possible alternative: "Wicked"!

[> [> [> [> Please no Blue Man Group!! -- Rob, 19:59:46 07/09/04 Fri

I went to one of their shows a few years back, and from the moment the curtain rose, I prayed for the pain to end quickly. It didn't.

From what I hear on Avenue Q's tour, it's just like the standard B'way show touring company. The show stays on Broadway, and a different cast tours the country.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: Avenue Q! Avenue Q! -- Susan, 06:15:56 07/11/04 Sun

Not to fear -- all of the original Avenue Q performers have signed contracts that will take them to July 2005.

There is no touring production scheduled, although there are plans of a production in Las Vegas.

I'm just sorry for Rob that Kerry Butler has recently left Little Shop of Horrors.....

[> Masq sits back and lets her minions do the heavy lifting -- Masq, 06:48:22 07/07/04 Wed

There wll be SOME BtVS/AtS viewing, right? I mean, by then the Region 2 DVDs for Season 6 Angel should be out, complete with commentaries by members of the Mutant Existentialscoobies!

[> [> Speaking of which... -- Rob, 08:21:14 07/07/04 Wed

We should totally do dramatic readings of the season 6 episodes!

Rob

[> [> [> I get to be Angel! -- Masq (insert broody icon here), 09:01:35 07/07/04 Wed

[> but i haven't made up the sleep i missed in chicago! -- anom, 20:56:23 07/08/04 Thu

"NEW YORK CITY!"

YAAAAAAAAAYYYY! (see my other post above)

"Apparently, I have volunteered to organize this event. I don't remember volunteering, but I may have been hopped up on a beserker sugar rush from Sarah's ATPo birthday cake(s) and anom's near-endless supply of organic chocolate bars."

Hey, they were on sale 3 out of the last 4 months before the Gathering, so I stocked up. But don't try to blame me--as Ann said, you had the power to choose how much to consume (& how come her cookies are off the hook?). Nevertheless, if you chose to eat too much of it, that may account for your selective amnesia. Come to think of it, the fact that you actually allowed your favorite episode of the last season of Angel to be interrupted for the announcement about next year's Gathering & the passing of the tiaras on to you supports this idea. For what it's worth, I don't remember your volunteering either. Not that I mean to plant suspicions in the mind of a power-mad dictator....

Especially since the power-madness may be contagious. I'm finding the idea of TAKING OVER an entire B&B for our own nefarious (or even farious) purposes very tempting. Maybe we should do an early head count just to get a ballpark (& yes, I'm taking my mitt) figure. If it seems likely we'll have--well, you can never have too many ATPosters together, can you?--but more than 1 puny B&B can hold, I say we extend our empire to a cluster of them! Yesss, we shall--uh-oh. Is there an antidote for this?

"This is very, very tentative folks, but I might (just might) be able to set up a public, 'Rocky Horror'-style OMWF singalong in a local Brooklyn theater for the night of Sunday, July 3rd (tentative date). Think 100+ rabid Buffyphiles singing their hearts out."

Um...100+?? That's not gonna be just the Gathered, then. What aren't you telling us? Or is it just the megalomania getting out of control?

"Think lyric sheets, teeny foam rabbits ('Bunnies!') and mustard packets ('Fury!') for all."

Yeah! Get your mustard out! And how about waffles for "I'll Never Tell" (y'know, instead of toast)? Flashlights for the "bathed in light" line in "Under Your Spell"? We all stand up for "Standing in the Way"? (Why, yes, I have been giving this some thought, what makes you ask?)

"I'm going to write to James Marsters' website and suggest that he warm up for his cinematic MacBeth by performing Shakespeare in the Park right here in New York."

Ah--that explains the "100+" above. Not to mention the "rabid." Y'know, we do have a connection that might help...what about approaching him through Liq? (Masq, would that be abusing the privilege?)

"I will, undoubtedly, have a nervous breakdown halfway through the weekend."

Ohhh, no ya don't. You're not gettin' out of this that easy. I hereby appoint myself to nervous breakdown watch. If you show any signs of being on the verge, I'll slip one of your Looney Tunes DVDs into the player until you calm down. Or drag you out to the nearest park. Or...well, I'll consult w/shadowkat about the best approach ('kat, should I look into renting a tranq gun?). Can't have you going all Clockwork Orange on us ("droogies" was a cry for help, wasn't it?) & don't want anyone coming to take you away, ho ho, ha ha.

"I will need tips about booking hotel rooms from LittleBit and Rob. Sarah says she knows of an inexpensive but well-situated Manhattan hotel. Anybody else with suggestions are welcome to lob them over the net (before the nice men in white suits throw the net over me.)"

I'll put my earlier suggestion in writing: get everything in writing. No verbal agreements w/people who may not be there by the time the time comes. And make sure there's a clause that says it's all binding on the hotel's successors, heirs, & assigns. Also on any spirits that may possess them. (Just trying to cover all the bases.)

[> Suggestion -- d'Herblay, 16:35:10 07/11/04 Sun

I'm a little wary of taking the ATPo contingent to New York City, as I'm afraid we'll all run off to do our own things and I won't see anyone. I definitely come to these things to see people; I can see New York City pretty much anytime I want to. But, there's really no other place on Earth, so if we're moving ahead with this, I'd like to suggest that we look into, in addition to hotels and B&Bs, some of the conference housing the area universities might offer. Union Theological Seminary has some well-appointed hotel-style rooms available, as does Teacher's College. I'm not sure what it would take to get us into Columbia's East Campus hotel, but it's reasonable for the area and nice. On the other end of the spectrum, International House rents out single dorm rooms in June and July for $45 a night. Getting a central conference space in whatever building should be pretty easy.

I'm sure there are similar offers near NYU; I just know where to get Ethiopian food in Morningside Heights.

[> [> I share the same concerns... -- Rob, 18:11:53 07/11/04 Sun

One of the major reasons I didn't push for New York last year was that I thought that the draw of New York City itself would overpower our gathering. I still think it might, particularly for those people who haven't been here before, because as much as they would want to go to the gathering, how could you pass up the chance to see NYC?

Columbia is far from mid-town and the Village, and since it's separated from the "culture" areas of the city, might be a good idea, so that we aren't right near all the cool stuff that could distract us.

Frankly, I'm a little worried when cjl says, "I noticed that this year's meet in Chicago was a bit less "watching viddies" and a bit more "let's see the town with our friends!" I plan to swing that ratio over to the sightseeing side even further." The "let's see the town with our friends" aspect was in fact my only real complaint about the weekend, and in New York, with much, much more to do, there's the possibility that all of us will never be together in one room at the same time. I personally was kind of hoping next year we would reduce, not increase the splitting-off-into-groups. After all, any one of us could potentially visit NYC any time. But we are very rarely all together. Personally I don't know if I want a theatre packed full of OMWF fans. I want to hang with the ATPo people, not masses of Buffy fans. I'm not saying that some activities wouldn't be a good idea, like going together to a Broadway show one of the nights, or something like that, but I think we also need to have time to just be together, and talk.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: I share the same concerns... -- LittleBit, 18:41:36 07/11/04 Sun

I rather quietly and probably way too late suggested Philadelphia. It's close enough to the coast, easy driving distance from NYC and has the added attraction of maybe even being able to convince OnM (and if he comes, maybe we could cajole Solitude1056 as well) to come spend a day with us. Just a suggestion, and if NYC is the choice for next year, that's fine.

I will however second many of these concerns. I missed a lot of the together-time (back injuries suck) and to be honest, that's what I went for. Luckily for me, the late night gathering happened in my (and LadyS') room so I didn't have to miss it. For me these Gatherings are to be with the other ATPo people, and the sightseeing is secondary. Which is not to say I wouldn't come a day or so early or stay an extra day or so, but the Gather days are ATPo days, for me.

[> [> [> [> Re: I share the same concerns... -- Rob, 19:23:06 07/11/04 Sun

Which is not to say I wouldn't come a day or so early or stay an extra day or so, but the Gather days are ATPo days, for me.

I'm planning on staying extra time or coming early this year for that very reason. Not that I need to sight-see in NY, but to spend more time with people.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Maybe.... -- Masq, 19:28:11 07/11/04 Sun

We should have a tighter agenda next year. Part of the Meet the past two years has been "open agenda" with no clear plans for any of the days.

If we had a clearer agenda, with planned activities, people would know when to plan sight-seeing.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe.... -- Jane, 21:07:41 07/11/04 Sun

That is probably a good idea, Masq. Chicago being my first gathering, I didn't have any expectations, and as Rob says, the best part was hanging out with all of you. I think we need to have something like planned activities, especially in New York. I want to sightsee too, but I plan to spend the bulk of my time over the weekend with my ATPO pals. I'm thinking of staying longer just to accomodate the tourist stuff. Luckily we have lots of time to sort out the bugs before we meet again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> agree, to some extent -- anom, 18:13:05 07/12/04 Mon

It's nice to have the flexibility to decide on the spot to watch, say, Sanctuary & Five by Five & then follow Angel back to Buffy, as we did in Chicago. (On the other hand, that also led to the morning people's watching some things I'd have liked to see before I got down to the conference room.) Some events, like a baseball game or Shakespeare in the Park, take place at scheduled times, so people going to them can ask not to have certain episodes shown when they can't see them. And as Masq says, if we knew when the things we're less interested in were going to happen, we could plan more general sightseeing for those times.

So what's the best way to decide how much scheduling to do ahead of time & find out who wants what when? Not that we need to get started this far in advance, but it's good to get it out on the table.

[> [> [> Re: I share the same concerns... -- d'Herblay, 19:42:11 07/11/04 Sun

Well, Columbia is a lot closer to that tempting "culture" (at least if you're talking about the big museums/Shakespeare In The Park rather than about bar-hopping in the Village) than Brooklyn, which is cjl's preference, but either way we'd be just a subway ride away from distraction.

[> [> [> [> Heh, I was thinking of the Village and Midtown. Shows where my priorities are. ;-) -- Rob, 21:22:09 07/11/04 Sun

...But yes, you're right of course about the museums. Don't know what I was thinking!

Rob

A vampire with a soul -- Kana, 09:29:26 07/07/04 Wed

If you were vampire who recently got his soul back? Would you feel guilty for all the things you've done? Is it the same as being 'under the influence'. People talk about the vamp persona being seperate from the human persona and the souled vamp persona. But isn't it the same spirit i.e. personality base and memories. Didn't Darla say to vampLiam that what they once were informs all that they are.

It would seem to me that my acts of evil if were turned would be exclusive to me. It was my mind that drove me to it. The demon drove me to kill, but what about the people I tortured, that came from my mind, my spirit. I think I couldn't shake the feeling of remorse because, as much as I hate to admit it, a part of me still did it, I enjoyed it. It didn't just satisfy the demon, it satisfied me. Vampire's still have earthly desires so it seems the a human part of them merges with the demon part and those parts are still merged even when i have a soul. It is not the demon that comes up with such ideas of sadism, so isn't part of the human psyche responsible for that. Even if it wasn't the whole of me who did all these things, it's still a part of me. How closely linked were vampdarla and humandarla? She associated herself completely with VampDarla, especially in personality although, that could be disorientation from coming back as human.

If I was vampire with a soul i would feel guilty but I wouldn't seek redemption. I would simply live my unlife in such a way that I can help people, but i would pursue my happiness, simply because I wanted to, not because, i deserved it becuase when would i deserve it? If the powers need a champion, i would be there simply because they needed one.

Replies:

[> Re: A vampire with a soul -- SNS, 10:05:57 07/07/04 Wed

You would, of course, have the vivid memories of killing all of your victims. You would have dreams about these events with all of the feelings that your unsouled self experienced. On top of this you would still have that demon inside you; and that demon would still want and enjoy what you did in the past. If you lost the demon at least the last part would be gone, but not the memories. The only equivalent we have as humans is post traumatic stress. The experience of war veterans does have some applicability here.

Therefore, I would think only someone who's very, very good at repressing or someone who's "human conscience" is weak would be able easily to pursue happiness. To acknowledge guilt and not to seek to make amends or redemption or forgiveness is a strange concept....and I see all three of these latter ones very much related. On top of this, even if you get forgiveness or redemption you will always have the memories with the guilt and it's associated feelings of remorse....even if these are buried deeply in your unconscious.

To say otherwise is to imply that you can completely (even at the unconscious level) cut off your past. Not recommended for spiritual growth.

SNS

[> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- Kana, 10:31:47 07/07/04 Wed

I find redemption an impossible concept. I'm not saying don't feel guilty, I just think you wouldn't be able to make up for the past. It's not denying what you were, what you are or what you've done but the only way I could move foward was by livng the way someone with a soul human or not should live. Deep down I guess I would love forgivness but I think I could never get it. Forgiveness for me would seem selfish, as I feel I would not deserve it. I could never redeem the demon that would be inside of me, but I can only be the best person that I can be. I just don't believe making things up for the cosmic scale. It's each day you that you try, you try to be better. To live for yourself and others and find your own star of joy, it seems the only way that I could go. Helping others, being the best that I could be, that is what would mean the most for me, not chasing a notion of fogiveness for the unforgivable.

God, if I were Angel it would be different series huh?

[> [> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- SNS, 10:57:24 07/07/04 Wed

You misunderstand me. Just as the scoopies loved Dawn because of memories - even after they knew that these were memories of non-experiences, you, as a soulled vampire, would have feelings that are a consequence of the memories of your unsoulled acts. You would not, without some serious repression, ever be able to be free of the feelings that these memories would produce either as recollections while your awake or dreams while you sleep. That's the experience of war veterans and other tramatic events. Even if you can rationally say, "not me"...it won't matter because it will FEEL like it was you. Dealing with the memories and the feelings is not a one time..."okay, next" thing...it is something that will be with you all the days of your life, even if the memories become less and less. It is dealing with that consequence which is what I mean by seeking forgiveness / redemptions or making amends....these are processes, not end-states. You ARE redeemed because you are in the process of making amends and seeking redemption. If you stop the process, then you are no longer redeemed since it implies that you can ignore the memories or that they have no effect on you. This is something which I believe you cannot choose to do without choosing to not feel at all. I may be mistaken, but you seem to be associating redemption with a tally sheet by which good acts outweigh bad acts. I'm suggesting that redemption is ongoing as a process that is the result of memories of evil acts that will always be a part of you.

There is no implication in what I've written here that is different in how you live your future. It's just that I believe that you can not cut-off your memories and their feelings - although many, many people try since it is seen as the quick way to avoid the pain - this is called repression of those memories / feelings.

True spiritual growth in most traditions lies not in the belief of "what a good person I am because I am doing good things" but usually in the recognition of one's dark side, acceptance of pain, etc. This was indicated by St.John of the Cross in his poem, "The Dark Night of the Soul". This theme is picked up by Joss, even if he is an athiest, with the redeeming effect of sacrifice.

By the way, forgiveness is something not given to the act but to the one who commited the act. As said in "I Only have Eyes for You" it is given because people need it.

"Giles: To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it."

It is by being remorseful of the past acts and the desire to live a good life that will put you in a state of forgiveness - in a state of compassion. It has nothing to do with being deserving.

SNS

[> [> [> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- Kana, 13:52:48 07/07/04 Wed

I'm definitley not saying you would be free, but I see your point. I guess I saw in a few posts people talking about redemption as if it something you can earn, like a reward, like forgiveness. It should the the way you live your life, tht is how you say you're sorry. o I guess we agree.

[> [> [> [> [> I suspected that we did agree.... -- SNS, 13:18:34 07/08/04 Thu

...sometimes it's just terminology that separates us. Certainly Christian doctrine wouldn't use the term "redemption" to describe the on-going struggle to live a "righteous" life. It doesn't mean that there is no struggle in their beliefs.

Anyone that would interpret "redemption" as an earned state has missed the most fundamental message of Ats or, at least, 5.22, which is that redemption IS an on-going state. From the perspective of this it's easy to see why Angel must sign away the shanshu or that it doesn't default or go to Spike for that would undermine that message.

In applying this message to our lives, it's fairly straightforward. We are all part monster and part "human" and the process of redemption consists of:

1) a coming to consciousness of guilt (i.e. ensouling of the vampire)- note: a process which could take several years

2) coming to terms with the guilt and making a decision to change our ways

3) the on-going struggle to do so

Interestingly, I do not, as many do, see the last part of season 5 as a repudiation of the Season 2 ephipany. It only is so if it has to be an either / or situation. Why should that be so? Even if you do the "big" thing of 5.22 that doesn't mean you won't still be faced with the day-to-day small acts of kindness. You can't make one act an atonement and then forget about it.

Instead I see season 5 as Angel recognising that he isn't a champion helping the helpless as a special superhero, but as Angel recognising that he is also one of the helpless. he is not separate from, but one of those needing help. Unfortunately, he's got a "monkey on his back", which is the Senior Partners/WRH. They will constantly be attempting to corrupt him as long as they see that there is a possibility of that he might be on their side in the apocolypse. This is a constant drain on him and frequently led to disaster. The only way out of it is for him to demonstrate that this will never happen, which he can only really do by bringing on the apolcalypse and taking a stand against the SP. That's 5.21/5.22. It's a "big" thing only because the SP have set it up that way. It's not Angel's choice but a choice forced upon him. Therefore, I don't see it as a contradiction to the season 2 ephiphany.

Sorry, if this is garbled. I didn't intend it to be so, but I ended up doing this in a real rush.

SNS

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I suspected that we did agree.... -- Kana, 00:26:11 07/09/04 Fri

Haven't seen season 5 yet but i think Angel pre-epiphany was looking for that reward, and also that validation (although he looked for that further in Conner). It seemed he was looking for something to define his existence, if I was a vampire with a soul as guilty as I would feel for my un-soulled acts, I would have to define my own existence, find my own star.

I only heard about Angel signing away his destiny (Shanshu) but isn't this signing away anyone else defining his mission for him? I'm not sure where Cordy is or whether he gets another link to the Powers but it seems that Angel is more free now that he has ever been (as far as the series is concerned) but now herein lies the equivocation, not only with what he is fighting for but what he is living for. Even if you are living for others can you escape lving for yourself, I don't know, but I think it is important to have your own star be it a mission or a way of life. Even with such forces as the Powers guiding you, you still have a choice, which could be fundamental to your existence as Gunn points out to Fred towards the end of S4. Again, I haven't seen S5 but maybe W+H are trying to exploit the other side of that. Was Angel's signing away his destiny away or was it him sticking his middle finger up at W+H? If the Shanshu prophecy was the star guiding him, then at least he can find his own star. As difficult as it is, maybe this way of life could more significant than that final reward.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I really liked what you wrote.... -- SNS, 06:18:11 07/09/04 Fri

...as for signing away things or stickin' his finger up at the 'ol W&H, I've interpreted this in a number of ways, which are not necessarily inconsistent or entirely consistent. That's okay because the show has many different levels of interpretation.

Sorry, if I've ruined anything about season 5 for you. I myself only saw the last 3 episodes, so I've tried to refrain from commenting on some of the other issues that are being discussed.

Thanks for the discussion.

SNS

[> [> [> Confusing redemption with the need for punishment -- StarryNightShade, 13:39:39 07/07/04 Wed

You are not denying a feeling of guilt, but quoting
J. Carroll in "Guilt: The Grey Eminence behind Character, History and Culture"

"....the appropriate language for addressing guilt is that of the soul and salvation, for guilt is a disease of the spirit: here is the strength of guilt in its persecutory modes, that it tends to insist on the right question." (pp. 212-213)

and

"Our investigation has taught us a number of general principles which would have to be followed if guilt were to be become recultured. ... This means disintering guilt, returning it to the world: Reawakened conscience means that hidden guilt has been uncovered. It means transforming inner chaos into sublimation." (p. 243)

Dr. Donald Carveth (psychoanalyst) of the University of York, Toronto has an excellant essay on guilt at the following url:

http://www.yorku.ca/dcarveth/guilt.html

Sense of guilt is not to be equated with a "need for punishment". Redemption is not seeking a path of punishment but salvation or a state of some acceptance of forgiveness, but with that comes conscious suffering that arises from awareness of guilt. On the other hand the "need for punishment" seeks to evade a conscious sense of guilt in various forms of guilt-substitute. Instead of becoming conscious of the guilt, the individual short-circuits that with self-punishment, the pain of which is more bearable than the pain of guilt.

Notice the similarity in the psychoanalytical language of "becoming conscious of guilt" or "reawakening the consicence" that is similar to the "ensouling" of a vampire. You are right to say that once ensouled you should feel guilt as so much of your personality and intellect were involved in your prior acts - even if you were unable to choose otherwise.

Once conscious of your guilt you make decide to accept and make reparation for it, or reject it as irrational and ungrounded. However, you can not ignore nor the pain of it.

We only saw Darla as a post-vampire human for a short time. Awareness of guilt may have been suppressed by her drive to avoid death. In the case of Spike, it may not be clear where is at...but that's probably because the story was not focussing on his path of redemption. In analysis the individual learns to face and bear one's guilt as a road to freedom from the unconscious need for punishment and the oral-narcissistic soothing of the pain arising from such self-torment.

One of the problems a re-souled vampire faces is that do not have available the societal mechanisms for sharing the burden of guilt through religion. This is consistent with the athiestic view of Joss. As an athiest neither can he as a human share the burden. It's his and his alone.

Also, we should not confuse a sense of guilt with shame. If we feel guilty we should feel shame, but it is possible to feel shame where there is no guilt. The latter is an immature state of the individual as it is self-obsessive. Hopefully the individual can mature and at least become ashamed of the individual's narcissim and incapacity to experience guilt.

I'll end with a quote from Carveth's essay:

"The guilty subject who cannot bear feeling guilty will evade guilt-feeling one way or another. ... The challenge facing this self-evading subject is that of recognising it is a subject after all, a guilty subject and, like every other guilty subject, of facing and bearing its guilt, integrating as a part of the tragic dimension of human existance the reality of our primoridal ambivalence, and accepting as an aspect of "common human unhappiness" the need to shoulder the burden of responsibility to make reparation and to change that genuinely facing our guilt entails".

SNS

[> [> Two out of three -- Ames, 11:36:41 07/07/04 Wed

As Kana points out, we actually have 3 examples of vampires who got their soul back: Angel, Spike, and Darla. Two of the three drew little if any distinction between their souled and soulless selves. Yes, getting a soul changed them, but only incrementally, not like flipping a switch. Only Angel tried to present himself as a completely different person. Both the deliberate cruelty of Angelus and the guilt felt by Angel were unique, not characteristics shared by the others. If we could get him on the psychoanalyst's couch, we'd probably find deep-seated issues with both parental authority (as in The Prodigal) and with religious guilt (remembering that Angel comes from an Irish Catholic background not too much different from that presented in Angela's Ashes).

[> [> [> Re: Two out of three -- Pip, 10:25:33 07/08/04 Thu

(remembering that Angel comes from an Irish Catholic background not too much different from that presented in Angela's Ashes)

Do we know Liam was Irish Catholic? Irish, yes, certainly, but the part of the funeral service we hear is in English, not Latin, and his ignorance of Catholic doctrine, saint's days and so forth is (IMO) fairly complete.

There's a fair few Calvinists (Presbyterians) in Ireland (including in Galway), and Angel's attitudes to redemption, hell and so forth feel more old-style Calvinistic than Catholic. His fondness for attacking nunneries could also be derived from very old fashioned Protestant attitudes, rather than a Catholic association of nunnery=holy.

So I'm not sure he's Catholic. Though if he was, then the young Liam slept through *every* Homily. :-)

[> [> [> [> Re: Two out of three -- Ames, 13:13:52 07/08/04 Thu

Ok, fair point. But I'm remembering the scene in the confessional with Drusilla where Angelus killed and replaced the priest, where he seemed to know all the right lines for the Catholic rite of hearing confession and giving penance.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Two out of three -- Pip, 14:12:10 07/08/04 Thu

You mean the scene where he doesn't ask Dru whether she repents, doesn't ask her to make an Act of Contrition before he gives her a penance, forgets entirely about the absolution and doesn't ask her to pray for him? [grin] The only reason that Dru didn't notice that this was a very strange confessor is that she was probably in a different century at the time [even bigger grin].

The penance is a bit out of the ordinary, too. Ten Our Father's - not a Hail Mary in sight. ;-)

[> [> [> Re: Two out of three -- StarryNightShade, 06:36:03 07/09/04 Fri

Hi Ames,

You are somewhat comparing apples and orange and pineapples here. There is a temporal dimension that shouldn't be ignored. Remember that Angel ran with the remainder of the "Fanged Four" for a couple of years before finally be driven out by Darla during the Chinese Boxer rebellion. He must have not been signficantly different to Angelus at that time or at least Darla would have caught on well before then. There was a change, but it clearly couldn't have been a "light switch". Not belonging to the vampire community any longer and not seeing himself as human he went into isolation until the PTB intervened and he met Buffy. By this time he had differentiated himself from Angelus....but not entirely he does refer to himself as "I did this..." when he was Angelus. That his personality would change after a 100 years of an isolated existence is not surprising. Then there is his loss of soul again and reversion to Angelus. It to be expected that the demon-dominated Angelus would strive as much as possible to distance himself from the souled Angel, which could explain and even larger difference between the personalities of Angel and the later versions of Angelus. Note that Spike doesn't lose his soul again, so a comparison may not be appropriate. It is interesting that as Angel develops to the end of Ats he integrates more traits from Angelus than early on in Btvs.

Spike has only had his soul for 2 years. The temporal point of comparison for him with Angel is during the Boxer Rebellion; and there's really only one scene from which to draw conclusions.

Darla went from vampire to human back to vampire to vampire with a soul-effect coming from the unborn Conner. Her human form was for less than a year during which she was mostly under the influence of W&H; on top of which she discovered she had a terminal disease. In the later case, having a soul through an unborn child is a unique situation. It's extremely difficult to draw much from comparing her situation with the others. However, interestingly one of her last statements was that creating the infant was the only good thing she and Angel did together. That is a partial expression of guilt. I completely disagree that she didn't share the characteristic of cruelty with Angelus. She was his vampire mentor and egged him on or delighted in his expressions of cruelty. Keep in mind that we only see the vampire Darla of the past through flashbacks centred on primarily Angelus but on occasion Spike. While a vampire on the show she does display cruelty...witness how she delights in the terror of the lawyers locked in the room. It may be a different cruelty to Angelus, but cruel it is.

SNS

[> [> [> [> Re: Two out of three -- Ames, 14:50:24 07/09/04 Fri

Ok, I take your point that the Angel/Angelus split had a lot longer to develop, but by now it like a light switch.

I don't think we really saw enough of Darla to make statements about her with a lot of certainty, but she didn't seem as deliberately cruel as Angelus. Certainly she delighted vicariously in his cruelty, but we didn't see a lot of evidence of Darla going out of her way on her own to inflict deliberate psychological cruelty on others just for the fun of it (ok, maybe the girl in the clothing store). The W&H lawyers don't count - she was treating them as enemies, not innocent bystanders.

[> Re: A vampire with a soul -- skeeve, 12:49:31 07/08/04 Thu

Perhaps the best analogy for a resouled vampire
is that of a psychotropically poisoned (the demon)
person who used to also have a psychotropic
deficiency disease (no soul).

[> Re: A vampire with a soul -- VampRiley, 16:51:16 07/10/04 Sat

Eh, I'd probably feel some guilt...there may even be a bit of vomiting..., but I'd move on eventually. There might some tugging in the back of my mind for a while, but I'd really need to let the past go and get on with my life, not obsess over it, like Angel.

[> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- Kana, 01:42:48 07/12/04 Mon

I agree. You can't make up for the past, and it seems that some would never see you as redeemed (such as Holtz with Angel) which is why it is all the more important to find things that are important to you. It sounds selfish but you are not morally obligated to be the selfless ever suffering champion of the people. If you are not living for yourself in some respect then what are you living for? Livivng completely for others is an existence that I do not deem worthwhile.

[> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- SNS, 12:10:32 07/12/04 Mon

but I'd move on eventually

Would you? Could you be sure? If you committed a murder, could you be sure you could move on? If you were a soldier who had been involved in a massacre such as at My Lai in Vietnam..?

There are two ways to deal with this:

1) Accept the guilt and the pain of the memories and inform your future actions

2) Repress the guilt and the memories

not obsess over it, like Angel

Maybe he's not obsessing, maybe he's doing 1) above by being a champion for those he believes shouldn't suffer. That's not entirely selfless; it is simultaneously something he is doing for himself that is also in service to others...they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

For example, if someone believes that we in the West have far too much wealth, feels guilty about that and then commits themselves to serving in a humanitarian aid organisation....is that not a worthwhile activity that both serves the individual concerned and suffering people in the third world.

Or....maybe that person should just have a good guilt session, make a donation and avoid pictures of starving children so that the good life can go on.

Maybe it's just old fashion thinking on my part, but it used to be that service to others was thought to be a noble calling.

SNS

[> [> [> I think, if I made it past the first few weeks, I'd be fine -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:41:22 07/12/04 Mon

My feelings tend to come in big bursts. For example, let's say I'm upset cause I'm losing at a game. Rather than being kind of grumpy throughout and continuing my bad mood afterwards, I'll many times go into a brief bout of yelling and shouting. After I'm done with that, I feel perfectly calm and serene. That's generally how my emotions go: for a brief period of time I'll boil over the top with emotion and be fine afterwards; I may have some lingering feelings, but they tend to be weak and go away quickly. I think the same formula would apply if I suddenly learned I'd commited Angelus level atrocities: for the first few weeks after this moment, I'd feel super-guilty. I'm talking bashing my head against walls, cutting myself, going for days without food or water, possibly (or even probably) suicide attempts. However, if I managed to get through these weeks without killing myself or suffering serious self-mutilation, I think I'd wind up being alright and moving on. I'd have lingering guilt, yeah, but I think it wouldn't be my dominant emotion and would gradually fade away with time. And that can happen: when I was in elementary school, I was somewhat, well, psychotic. At one point I attacked another kid during an argument, using my fingernails to leave several bleeding scratches on his skin. That was a pretty bad thing to do, but I don't really feel guilty for something I did so many years ago. So, yeah, I think that, if I could just survive the first couple weeks after learning of my crimes, I'd be able to move on my life and guilt would end up playing a minor, perhaps even non-existant, role in my life.

[> [> [> [> Thank you for all your responses -- Kana, 02:57:15 07/13/04 Tue

This is what I'm trying to say. I don't think that you necessarily have to have a weak soul (re what SNS said) to not want to seek redemption. It is entirely subjective to the particular vampire. Maybe I'm getting caught up with semantics but what is redemption? From what limited sources I could find it is saving yourself from sin, atoning for what you have done. Can you do that? I suppose it depneds what you are looking for in life (or your unlife). I identify more with the Angel post Conner's birth than before because I never relly believed Wes when he said the was nothing in life that Angel wants. What Angel wants is similar to what many of us want: love, purpose (hopefully one can decide for ourselves IMO) and happiness. This is just as important for the soul as accepting and dealing with guilt, in fact they go hand in hand. Defining redemption is subject to finding the meaning of your existence and what you believe in and also what you want. Although guilt is universal, what we do with it and how we move on is subject to the individual.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thank you for all your responses -- SNS, 08:47:59 07/13/04 Tue

Hi Kana,

I guess I haven't made myself understood; and maybe the argument has a semantic connotation. Without complicating it, all I can say is that I see redemption = atonement = spiritual growth which is seeking something that some mystics call "at-one-ment". It more akin to a Buddists way than a strict Western definition of "paying for crimes".

...and, yeah, I believe that there is no such stage as "I've moved on" but a lessening of emotions with time and space. For I also believe that we can't choose what we will feel only if we will feel.

...and, no, I don't believe in digging a whole of remorse, anger, hatred or whatever and wallowing in it, which is what Holtz has done, but not what Angel has done over time. His path of being of service is his choice because of how much he cares and is not "obsessing" in my opinion. If he hasn't grown or moved on in 5 years of the Series plus the years on Bvts than the series has failed in it's stated purpose.

...and, yes, for somethings, like alcoholism, there is no "moved on" stage. The threat of the disease always remains.

I seem to be in the minority, so I'll say no more. Thank you for your thanks though.

SNS

[> [> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- dlgood, 10:03:30 07/15/04 Thu

Maybe he's not obsessing, maybe he's doing 1) above by being a champion for those he believes shouldn't suffer. That's not entirely selfless; it is simultaneously something he is doing for himself that is also in service to others...they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

A sentiment I happen to agree with. To a certain extent, some of the "he should just let it go" argumentation strikes me as moral lassitude.

If you break something, you have a certain moral responsibility to ameliorate. To say, "what's done is done" sometimes reads like a way to rationalizing oneself out of responsibility and out of having to do the hard work.

[> [> [> [> Re: A vampire with a soul -- SNS, 12:52:27 07/15/04 Thu

If you break something, you have a certain moral responsibility to ameliorate. To say, "what's done is done" sometimes reads like a way to rationalizing oneself out of responsibility and out of having to do the hard work.

Thank you, dlgood. I guess I'm pretty passionate about this. I'm even so mad as to take it one step further.

If you've been graced in life you have a moral imperative to share that grace. Note: that's "share" and not "give away".

I think I've had a lot of grace and good fortune in my life; and I believe I owe it return some of that grace to the world. I don't judge anyone for not thinking this way, but it's a value I've chosen to give my life meaning.

SNS

Official Book Melee thread -- Ann, 16:03:42 07/07/04 Wed

Book Melee suggestion time

As the new executive of the Book Melee, I am only hoping to fill a toe or two of Sara s shoes. I would like to let you know what was discussed in Chicago about this as well. Everyone was excited by the possibility of another Melee. It was agreed that the previous thread I posted supplied the first suggestion for this Melee phenomenon. These few suggestions all pointed to a duel reading of both Hamlet by Shakespeare and its spin-off Rosencrantz and Guilderstern are Dead by Tom Stoppard. These could make for interesting comparisons, associations, creative efforts and discussion. I read Hamlet in high school so I welcome a rereading. I haven t read R&G Are Dead but look forward to it. Others have said that ATPO poster s discussion of Shakespeare may help them finally understand. Some also offered the suggestion of watching filmed theatrical productions or movies of both as a way to help understand the plays. These were meant for the stage after all. Links: (online at http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/hamlet/index.html or at http://www.bartleby.com/70/index42.html or for the truly obscure: http://www.kli.org/stuff/Hamlet.html I could not find any online versions of R&G Are Dead). I figure we can read these by the end of July. Discussion will commence as you finish them. I will be mostly offline for the first two weeks of August but discussion can go on without me :-( We will have selected the next work to begin reading by August 1st with discussion commencing after the 20th. I think there is enough wiggle room here but if not let me know.

So, by the power invested in me by Sara and Masq, I proclaim these to be the kickoff selections of July/August 2004 International ATPO Book Melee.

Was that grand enough?

Traditionally with the Melee, suggestions are offered, votes are taken, and the dates are set. I plan to keep with this pattern other than the above-mentioned proclamation. We can go one a month until Christmas. And beyond.

Come one come all! I would like to invite you: lurkers, pretend lurkers, posters and all others (however you may categorize yourself), to reply to this thread with your suggestions for future readings. Perhaps something you have recently read, something you have been wanting to read, but needed a little shove in the right direction. Classics or modern. I think any and all ideas should be offered. Plays, books of poems or one longer poem, novels and perhaps even non-fiction (let me know what you think about non-fiction). Items should be generally available either online, Amazon.com or public library. I will post links for future selections if possible. I will also track suggestions.

If I have forgotten anything, please let me know. I look forward to your wonderful selections.

Ann

Replies:

[> Book Suggestion: Cyteen -- dmw, 16:40:39 07/07/04 Wed

I recommend Cyteen. It's one of the best novels about identity, an ever-popular subject on this forum, and it's also a much deeper analysis of the same type of sociology that Brave New World attempts to analyze.

Dr. Ariane Emory has dominated politics and science on the world of Cyteen for half a century. Why? She controls Reseune, the research complex that produces people--computer-trained azi, who range the gamut from the alphas to deltas of Brave New World, but who are much more. Ariane soon dies after the book opens, leaving a gulf in Cyteen society that her successors at Reseune feel can only be filled by one person. Ariane. They make clones on a regular basis; they train azi clones to fulfill any purpose, but can they remake a person?

That's the premise: the attempt to recreate a unique charismatic genius by cloning her and replicating every aspect of her upbringing to match her well-recorded but lonely, unhappy, and occassionally abusive childhood, while keeping it all a secret from her. Of course, young Ariane discovers the experiment and its purpose, but can she escape the shadow of her predecessor, who remains a tangible character long after her death through her own secret records and videos left to guide her anticipated successor?

Cyteen's a realistic look at what it would take to replicate a person from nature to nurture, and the author leaves it to the reader to decide how well Reseune succeeded in their attempt and whether they were right or wrong to attempt such a "resurrection." The administrators of Resuene make the Watchers look like laid back amateurs at controlling their charge, with admittedly somewhat similar results to the Watchers attempt to control Buffy, while the shadow of the first Ariane looms over young Ariane with more personal effect than the shadow of the First Slayer ever imposed on Buffy.

[> [> Re: Book Suggestion: Cyteen -- Jane, 18:35:54 07/07/04 Wed

Cyteen sounds like it could be a fascinating read. I'm not familiar with it at all.
I like the idea of revisiting Shakespeare via Hamlet and then Tom Stoppard's take on the play. Must get to the bookstore ASAP. Now I will go peruse my bookshelves for other suggestions. BTW, thank you Ann, for taking this on for us!

[> [> Cyteen - Sounds really good! -- SaraJ aka Sara, 19:54:32 07/07/04 Wed

That sounds like it would create much in the way of good discussions. I'll vote for it! (Ann, can I vote for lots and lots of books? Cause I'm about to suggest another book...)

By the way, I'm going to be posting as SaraJ from now on, since there was another Sara on the board for a while, and I'm hoping there isn't another SaraJ.

[> Re: Official Book Melee thread -- LadyStarlight, 19:23:57 07/07/04 Wed

My library system never ceases to amaze me. I found movie versions of both, several copies of Hamlet, but the written play of R&GAD may be unobtainable. However, hope springs eternal and all that. Plus, holds are our friends.

[> [> Re: Official Book Melee thread -- El Linchador, 08:28:54 07/08/04 Thu

FYI, "R&G Are Dead" is, indeed, on Amazon.com (which you all probably know by now). Cheap, too. They also have those "If you like this, then get THIS" - and the 'THIS' is "Waiting for Godot", which jogged my memory of reading "Godot" back in High School. I'd throw that on the fire as a possible candidate for a melee down the road.

[> All Hail Ann! Queen of the Melee! -- SaraJ aka Sara, 20:09:25 07/07/04 Wed

Yea Ann! My hero!!!!! Thank you for taking this on! I love melees!

What do we think of "Lord of the Flies?" Graffiti and I are reading it now and I'm finding it much more powerful then I did in High School. But I'll read anything that isn't about serial killers...no nightmares for this girl.

[> [> I personally love "Lord of the Flies," wouldn't mind re-reading it. -- Rob, 06:49:21 07/08/04 Thu

[> [> how about "1984"? -- anom, 15:36:53 07/18/04 Sun

This is the 20th anniversary of the book's eponymous year & 55 years since it was 1st published. It's often been called prophetic--how true is that? "Orwellian" has become a buzzword. Maybe it's time to have another look at what it really means.

After Hamlet/R&G, of course.

[> Well -- Tchaikovsky, 04:24:58 07/08/04 Thu

I certainly don't think it's my turn to choose which book we do, so I put in a vote for the interesting sounding 'Cyteen'. And maybe I should start prodding away at a Hamlet essay. Thanks for organising this Ann, it was great fun last time around.

TCH

[> Hamlet and R&G -- dmw, 06:29:45 07/08/04 Thu

These few suggestions all pointed to a duel reading of both Hamlet by Shakespeare and its spin-off Rosencrantz and Guilderstern are Dead by Tom Stoppard.

I like the combination of the two plays; I've seen them together before and it's an intruiging superposition of two very perspectives. My question, though, is who's dueling? Is it Shakespeare and Tom Stoppard, or Hamlet and R&G, or we, the readers? I didn't realize that the term "book melee" was taken quite so literally. (-;

In addition to live versions, I've seen the 1990 filmed version of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, which I would recommend to anyone in addition to the script, which actually I haven't read, though, of course, I've read Hamlet. What are people's recommendations for a filmed version of Hamlet? Is the Kenneth Branagh version as good as his other Shakespearean films?

[> [> Branagh's 'Hamlet' and Branagh's Hamlet -- Tchaikovsky, 07:27:42 07/08/04 Thu

I adore the film and think it's as good as his 'Much Ado About Nothing'. A few things that really help it include:

-the beautiful surroundings of Blenheim, and all the mirrors and mirror-ing
-Julie Christie as a still amazingly beautiful Gertrude and Richard Briers as a good-hearted Polonius
-silly little cameos you can't quite believe: John Gielgud, Jack Lemmon, Charlton Heston, Ken Dodd, Robin Williams.
-the fact that it is the full text, (all 241 minutes worth) means that, while it might be advisable to watch it in two sittings, lots of interesting jewels usually omitted are kept in.

My only slight issue with it is Branagh as Hamlet: he's a little irritating to me at time, with his self-consciously over-broad delivery. If you like Branagh as an actor, (I'm not counting 'Conspiracy', in which anyone who doesn't think he's immense might as well just give up now), then fly to the store and get it. If not, I'd still recommend it, but I'm not being held responsible for any claims that I've wasted four hours of your time. Ultimately, it reminds you how brilliant Shakespeare is, and that's the most important thing.

TCH

[> [> [> Re: Branagh's 'Hamlet' and Branagh's Hamlet -- DickBD, 12:35:06 07/08/04 Thu

Well, it is my favorite filmed Hamlet. For one thing, it doesn't cut any of the script. I cut my teeth on Olivier's version, and I like that, too, but he cut out Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, as well as Fortinbras! I also think that Branagh underlines a pivotal part of the play by pulling away as Hamlet makes a dramatic declaration about all his plans going awry and how his actions will be bloody. (Obviously, I don't agree with Olivier's contention that the tragedy is about a man who could not make up his mind!)

[> [> [> I actually love Branagh's Hamlet (as well as his 'Hamlet')... -- Rob, 16:10:06 07/08/04 Thu

With his line delivery, he emphasizes and interprets certain lines in some brilliant ways I hadn't heard any other Hamlet do before. To me, he's one of the few Hamlets that I came away relating to and liking. I didn't think of him as the Shakespearean Archetypal Character, but an actual person. And besides him, Kate Winslet is an absolutely brilliant Ophelia. Whoever came up with the idea that she, in her mad scene, not actually be holding any flowers, is a genius.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Going for the oddball choice -- Pony, 05:45:42 07/11/04 Sun

But I actually really like Ethan Hawke's Hamlet. I know I know, and they certainly cut the hell out of the text but it just has so much energy. It's set in modern day New York, with Hamlet very much a twentysomething hipster guy always talking into his video camera. That does sound frightening I realize but having such a young Hamlet really works because it recalls that time in life where everything seemed so overwhelming and terribly important - in contrast to the compromises of middle age the older characters demonstrate. The movie is a wonderful illustration of how well the play works regardless of the setting, and this unconventional take shows just how much the text can connect to modern life.

There are many brilliant touches, like having Fortinbras' progress tracked by newspapers and CNN, Julia Stiles' Ophelia and her pictures of flowers. The characters really seem to live in their setting too, it's not just a backdrop for the action - the movie takes the time to show the photos on their fridges, the way they get around the city. There's a wonderful scene where Hamlet and Horatio are discussing plans in Horatio's apartment, and they notice Horatio's girlfriend asleep in the next room, they both continue with lowered voices so as not to wake her.

And you have to love Hamlet doing "to be or not to be" while wandering around the Action section of Blockbuster video. Well, I do at least.

[> [> Re: Hamlet and R&G -- Ann, 09:21:19 07/08/04 Thu

My question, though, is who's dueling? heeee

That can be your essay topic!

Hamlet 1948 http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0040416/
1964 http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0058175/
1969 http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0064400/
1990 http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0099726/
1996 http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0116477/
2000 http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0171359/

I have only seen the first one but movie reviews may want to be included.

More later.

[> [> Kenneth Branagh's first Hamlet - with Derek Jacobi -- ladyhelix, 16:53:31 07/12/04 Mon

When I went to pick up the Hamlet and R&GaD at our town's little hole in the wall library 2 blocks from my house, they didn't have the Branagh Hamlet video. But a PBS Home Video called 'Discovering Hamlet' caught my eye as I zoomed by - so I just grabbed it (I need all the help I can get, being a "first timer" with Hamlet). I figured PBS would do a decent job - with whatever it was.

I just watched it (without reading the jacket, and it turned out to be the behind the scenes look at a fresh interpretation of Hamlet - with Kenneth Branagh playing Hamlet for the FIRST time, under the direction of Derek Jacobi! It was fascinating! A wonderful introduction for those of us who have never seen a production develop from the first day of rehearsals, through the blocking & decisions, right up to opening night backstage. And people - Derek Jacobi is just SO pretty!

I am really ready to read now!! (I know, I know, I'm WAY behind - but it was a busy weekend.)

(Video 822.33 Discovering) I though you KB Hamlet fans might enjoy knowing about this! And if the Haslett Michigan library has a copy - you should be able to find it ANYWHERE!

I also understand why JM wants to direct Joss as Hamlet!

[> [> [> Sounds intriguing. I'll look for it. -- dmw, 16:56:26 07/12/04 Mon

[> Great Dane with Finns -- MsGiles, 02:42:15 07/09/04 Fri

Hamlet with R&G sounds great, will join in if I can get my concentrating head on. Cyteen sounds good, and I'd be into that as well. Can I suggest Patricia Sullivan's 'Maul' as another possible? Another take on cloning that you could maybe call satirical cyberpunk (if that doesn't put too many people off!)

btw Aki Kaurismaki, the great Finnish film director, has made a version of Hamlet called 'Hamlet Goes Business', where Hamlet's father runs a rubber duck company. It's OK, not one of his best imho, but I can never miss anything by the director of 'Leningrad Cowboys Go America' and 'Careful with Your Scarf, Tatiana'
http://www.filmref.com/directors/dirpages/kaurismaki.html#hamlet
http://www.learmedia.ca/product_info.php/products_id/672
on Kaurismaki
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/kaurismaki.html
(but I've found no scripts)

[> Preserving because I can -- Ann, taking her executive powers way to seriously, 06:48:32 07/10/04 Sat

[> So... how does one "melee"? -- ladyhelix, 08:46:37 07/10/04 Sat

It's been a VERY long time since I've read any Shakespeare... but I just picked up my books at the library and I was wondering if you could share with me - what happens next? (I mean ... AFTER I quit staring at them sitting on my kitchen table - and actually READ them.) I haven't been this intimidated in decades - it's horrifying - but exhilarating!

So how does the Melee unfold - is there a structure, or is it just kind of a spontaneous thing? Do I have to write a paper? Will we be graded on a curve - or will points be given for effort?

[> [> Basically... -- Rob, 09:29:49 07/10/04 Sat

...on the day the Melee begins, someone starts a thread, usually with an essay or some general thoughts, and then people respond, and it proceeds from there.

Rob

[> [> Re: So... how does one "melee"? -- Ann [putting on her counselor's hat], 09:30:12 07/10/04 Sat

Ohhh I am channeling S7 Buffy now in her office (Hopefully I won t have to use the boot, the bat, and the bastinada.)

Step one: find a copy
Step two: read
Step three: analyze
Step four: post analysis
Step five: read other posts
Steps four and five are interchangable
Step six: use sword if necessary in duel reading of texts

I believe from archival readings that this is a very spontaneous event. Grading is not on a curve but determined by the number of replies ;-) Not set in stone like the scythe, but the power does flow the same way. Sharing thoughts hopefully results in more responses and the joy spreads. As Angel learned over many seasons, effort does count. Sometimes it is all you have:

SPIKE: In terms of a melee?

ANGEL: We read.

SPIKE: Bit more specific.

ANGEL: Well, personally, I kind of want to read Hamlet. Let's go to work.

;-)

[> [> [> Thanks ever so =o) -- ladyhelix, 14:27:32 07/10/04 Sat

[> [> Re: So... how does one "melee"? -- LittleBit, 17:03:59 07/10/04 Sat

And should you care to have a look at last year's melees:

Perfume

The Screwtape Letters

The Stars My Destination
continued here

Frankenstein

Daughter of Time

The Beekeeper's Apprentice

[> [> [> Re: So... how does one "melee"? -- Jane, 21:33:29 07/10/04 Sat

Now all I have to do is:
1) Find the books
2) Read the books
3) Figure out what I think about the books
4) Do 1 through 3 in the time allotted.
When does this thing start, anyway? Not feeling any pressure, nope. (wiping brow...)

[> [> [> [> Melee has already started, you should be reading! -- Ann, 08:14:03 07/11/04 Sun

You should be reading!

I am half way through Hamlet. I purchased my copy of R&G are Dead last night at B&N. FYI - Price: $12.00 US. I have seen much cheaper used copies at Amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/0802132758//102-0182331-4166535?condition=

[> [> [> [> [> I apologize most humbly... -- Jane, 20:57:56 07/11/04 Sun

I was waiting for the starting gun! Got caught napping. Off to the bookstore very early tomorrow morning. Good thing I read fast. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Books are now in hand... -- Jane, 18:44:12 07/12/04 Mon

Reading has commenced. Hopefully, intelligent thought and remarks will follow.
Found both books at a second hand store up the street. R&G Are Dead cost 95 cents when it was new; cost me $3.95 today. Guess that shows that good books just increase with value over time! ;)

[> [> [> Thank you LittleBit!! -- ladyhelix, 19:15:24 07/11/04 Sun

[> yes please! -- Vickie, 21:43:18 07/10/04 Sat

Thank you, Ann, for taking on the organizing tasks!

I'll read almost anything, but would really really love to see the board's take on the Hamlet/R&G duo. (BTW, I thought that was a "dual" reading, not "duel"?)

Please add to the list of future possibles: Reading Lolita in Tehran. I just read this over my vacation, and it broke my heard while opening my mind to new readings of classic novels. Authors discussed include: Nabokov (Lolita and Pnin), James (Washington Square and Daisy Miller), Fitzgerald (The Great Gatsby), and Austen (Pride and Prejudice), among others.

[> [> Re: yes please! -- Ann, 06:16:17 07/11/04 Sun

Thank you. The duel/dual thing. Started out as a bad joke. Sorry.

[> Book Melee Suggestions -- cjl, 07:41:41 07/11/04 Sun

First off, thanks to Ann for organizing this madness. We will try to meet our schedules like good little readers...

I say we start off with the dynamic duo of HAMLET and R&G ARE DEAD. Hamlet is always relevant, but you can see the 21st century parallels: when is the time for indecision over, and how do we take action? No matter how self-aware we seem to be, are we always aware of how our individual passions and obsessions affect our actions? A comparison of R&G ARE DEAD and The Girl in Question is worth a full-screen thread all by itself.

I'll second Vickie's suggestion of READING LOLITA IN TEHRAN. A book I've wanted to read for awhile now, but haven't been able to find the time to do it.

Other melee suggestions:

WAITING FOR GODOT - Samuel Beckett (I have my reasons); and/or SIX CHARACTERS IN SEARCH OF AN AUTHOR - Luigi Pirandello
THE AMAZING ADVENTURES OF KAVALIER AND KLAY - Michael Chabon
THE LIFE OF PI (soon to be a major motion picture by M. Night Shyalaman)
HOUSE OF SAUD, HOUSE OF BUSH - Craig Ungar (the source of a large chunk of Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11")
FAST FOOD NATION (for the Doublemeat Palace lover in all of us)

[> [> Re: Book Melee Suggestions -- Jane, 21:01:07 07/11/04 Sun

I'd second Life of Pi, cause I have read that one! I read Waiting for Godot many years ago, so would have to reread it. The others sound like good possibilities, too.

[> Even the Voynak demon is joining in: see top banner! -- TCH, 03:13:06 07/12/04 Mon

[> [> Isn't that scary? -- Masq, 15:04:09 07/14/04 Wed

I can see it giving us links to Tom Stoppard plays, but what's up with the needles and syringes thing? Where's it getting that?

[> [> [> I'm not getting that. Is there something you want to tell us? ;-) -- TCH, 03:20:24 07/15/04 Thu

[> [> [> [> Hey, they didn't appear above *my* posts! ; ) -- Masq, 11:45:26 07/15/04 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Heee! When I clicked on this very message... -- LittleBit, 13:33:27 07/15/04 Thu

the ads at the top were:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Shop at 20th Century Fox Online Buy
online now & get huge savings

and

Buffy Merchandise
Great selections and savings on T-
shirts, Magazines, Scripts and DVDs

You're just special.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Heee! When I clicked on this very message... -- Ann, 14:59:54 07/15/04 Thu

This message shows a trip to Lithuana so one can
Save on hotels & get travel tips Unbiased reviews & more online now! as well as selling: Tongkat Ali - In Stock
Liquid Extract and Raw Powder Available for immediate shipment.

I don't know what that is but somehow the combination is unusual and intriguing.

Those trolling spiders are picking up vibes we cannot see but are apparently present. Hee.

[> So when do we start? -- TCH- doing his Hermione impression, 14:32:47 07/18/04 Sun

[> [> ASAP IMO -- Ann [doing her Percy imitation], 17:38:40 07/18/04 Sun

Head boy you know!

Start posting what you have. I have finished Hamlet and am in the midst of R&G. Therefore, I will still need a few days for things to coalesce, but others can post forth. I am looking forward to everyone s thoughts about these works. I am not sure if I/we should set specific dates or deadlines. The melee shouldn t mean we leap the dusty deadline so I think we ought post ASAP but without fear of the clock.

We might want to start another thread so posts don't get lost amongst these.

So would this make Masq Dumbledore?

[> [> [> Also -- Ann, 17:53:10 07/18/04 Sun

We can decide upon the next choice in the next week or two. I will post another thread.

[> [> [> I have finished R&G.. -- Jane, 19:33:09 07/18/04 Sun

Now, on to Hamlet. I may need to reread R&G, because I read it in one sitting, out on my patio in the sun. Don't know how much I absorbed, although I did make a few notes! I quite enjoyed it, but did find myself going "huh?" a few times. Reading a play is rather different than reading a novel; I have to readjust my approach. ( I read quickly, often skimming. Couldn't do that with R&G) Post on everyone! Give me something to think about!

Dissertation -- Mir8lle, 07:03:08 07/08/04 Thu

ive been lurking for a while, reading pretty much everything you peeps have to say which is mostly very interesting. i have to say im feeling relieved tht there are people out there even more obsessive than i am. having said that, i am currently working on my dissertation (philosophy) which i am (somewhat hoakishly) writing about two particular characters of the buffy universe, spike and angel. i was originally planning something far more grandiouse on the nature of evil, yadda yadda yadda, but with my limit being 8000 words, i had no choice but to downgrade it. anyhow, my central issue of my dissertation is the representation of spike and angel in the image of schillers savage and the barbarian. if anybody is interested, i would absolutely LOVE feedback.

Replies:

[> Re: Dissertation -- heather, 15:08:38 07/08/04 Thu

i'm a master's student in english lit and was thinking of working buffy into my thesis next year. but i've been hesitant about the topic since it's so far off the beaten path and am afraid it could be a liability on a doctoral program application. can i ask you where you go to school and what (if any) political resistance or elitism you've encountered doing a dissertation on the buffyverse? how did you handle it if you encountered it?

my address is orphea at pacbell.net if you want to talk. thanks! -heather

[> [> Re: Dissertation -- Mir8lle, 05:44:46 07/09/04 Fri

heather: i study philosophy at cambridge and i have to say i encountered no problems whatsoever. when i presented my idea to my tutor, her reply was that as long as i kept to the text, there should be no issue with me writing on this topic.

i should probably give some more background on my actual dissertation, schiller writes in letters four and five of the aesthetic education of man about the french revolution and the failure of enlightenment in general. his belief was that the revolution failed not just because of the terror inherent but because mankind is not ready to be freed as a diremption exists in our selves, between reason and emotion. he gives two examples, the savage and the barbarian. they are more than just steriotypes of people living at that time, they are also perversions of natural and kantian freedom.
the savage is a representation of the lower classes, whos contribution to the french revolution was the bloody terror encountered in the streets. the savage acts on instinct and passion whereas the barbarian- the upper class (kant) acts on reason and sacrifices his emotions. from my reading of the text, schiller regards the barbarian as being more dangerous than the savage, and im not trying to discount the bloody terror the savage is responsible for.
my justifications for applying these stereotypes to spike and angel are simple, most of the second season of buffy, episodes 11 of season five of angel, and episode 15, the one with the caveman/astronaut arguement. and i agree with you frisby, it is absolutely essential to bring buffy into the mix, not simply because she is central to the aristotilian love triangle, but because she is the bridge over the diremptions of self in spike and angel, ie she makes angel feel and spike think about something other than themselves.

off topic, i have another question. in the season finale of buffy season two, just as angels soul is restored by willow and buffy is standing over angel with her sowrd raised. i am off the opinion that she was in fact about to cut his head off, that she in fact had angelus beaten at that point. am i misreading this?
also, when spike goes to compromise with buffy, to negotiate for drusillas life and he does that whole "i like this world speech", personally i think he was lying and doesnt give one crap about the world one way or another, he is only there to get drusilla back. if he really did care about the world, then when he later sees buffy backed into a corner by angelus and says "god, hes gonna kill her", shrugs and walks away, its inconsistant with his earlier statement because if angelus in fact does kill buffy, the world will still end. thoughts on this? thanks

[> [> [> Philosophy at Cambridge, & Buffy -- frisby, 08:17:08 07/09/04 Fri

Headlines for Philosophy Today: Bacon rules the world today (Machiavelli and Rousseau are also big players, and Plato abides still in the background), but Nietzsche will overtake him.

Will your dissertation consider Rousseau's 'natural man,' 'ethical man,' & 'civil man' -- not to mention his role in the revolutions?

On your other question, I agree Buffy is about to slay Angelus just before Willow restores his soul, but when Spike forms an alliance with Buffy, I think it's not an act, because he really 'is' happy with the world, but that's due to his love -- take away his love and world-nihilism returns. He walks away from the Angelus/Buffy fight because he reckons he's done his part and the rest is up to fate or the others.

One last thing, on instinct and reason: the former without the latter is savagery, and the latter without the former is unhealthy deformed civility. The Nietzschean affirms the latter wholeheartedly but only as rooted within the former, with both cultivated to an eye for improvement.

Good luck with your dissertation!

[> [> Re: Dissertation -- Ann, 09:10:58 07/09/04 Fri

since it's so far off the beaten path and am afraid it could be a liability on a doctoral program application.

I you apply to forward thinking departments with forward thinking faculty on the admissions committee then this shouldn't be a problem. If your personal statement and cv are well done, content of previous study shouldn't be a problem either. My suggestion would be to check out the departments thoroughly, talking to other students (the most important thing you can do) to discover biases the department may want to hide in an effort to get students. Find out who the tenured faculty are and what they study. This will give you a clear indication of the department's goals. See if you can find out what faculty had leave because they didn't get tenure and what they were studying. Talk to the staff, and get their impressions about the department. This is a telling indicator as well. All of these things will give you an indication about what levels of comfort departments will have with you studying Buffy. You might want to contact David Lavery and Rhonda Wilcox who pretty much invented Buffy studies. They might have an indication which departments would be open to this. Good luck.

[> [> [> Re: Dissertation -- heather, 11:19:07 07/09/04 Fri

thanks so much. that is excellent advice!

[> the barbarian and the philosopher -- frisby, 21:47:31 07/08/04 Thu

The barbarian shares some aspects of human nature with the savage, but prides himself on not being a savage; the barbarian also shares some with the civilized human being (language for example), but again prides himself on being otherwise with regard to the most important things. This order of rank applies to the more general category of civilization, as contrasted with culture.

With regard to culture (which assumes a mastery of nature to some degree, what we call civilization), the philosopher shares many aspects of human nature with the barbarian, but knows himself to be superior, but likewise with the gentleman, with whom he can pass, sharing much, but again, knows his superiority (with regard to victory/honor for example).

The philosopher is the type par excellance with regard to culture, but culture presupposes civilization, which requires the barbarian to bring it about. The precise focus in both cases is of course sex and violence, but in different ways for each case.

As for Spike and Angel, the pre-ensouled vampires, Spike is savage and Angel barbaric (perhaps), but after they are ensouled, they surely approach the philosophic, standing somewhere inbetween the beast (killing with zest) and the god (killing without remourse).

I'd suggest considering whether there is any applicability to your dissertation of Nietzsche's notion of the philosopher as superman or cultural physician of the soul. The key in my mind is how Buffy helps (on the one hand) Angel to find his mission as a champion and (on the other hand) Spike to find redemption and be good. Any treatment of Angel/Spike "without" Buffy would do violence to the text, so to speak, and miss the point.

There's my two cents for you to chew on.

NO F***ING WAYYY!! (Angel--Awakening) -- ghady, 08:04:22 07/08/04 Thu

I cannot TELL you how much this show makes me love it more and more each week!!! I mean, i was being DISAPPOINTED!!! What, the Beast suddenly DIESSS, just like that?! No master plan?! No real purpose?! I was YELLING at the TV cuz i thought that that was a REALLYYYY bad story decision. And then Angel and Cordy SLEEEEEP together!! I MEAN HELLOOO!! WHAT WAS WITH CORDY AND HER HAPPY LITTLE "SCREW THE CONSEQUENCES" SPEECH??!! How DUMB is she?? I got sooo freakin disappointed and PISSED at the writers. But then, i heard a voice (not in my head, from the TV). I thought it was the Beast at first, till i realized that ALL OF THIS WAS IN ANGEL'S HEAD!!! I CANNOT EXPRESS MY JOY AT WATCHING THESE EVENTS UNFOLD!!! I'm actually ECSTATIC at the moment!!! So my theory is this: you need a moment of bliss to de-soul Angel. Fine then. Let's go into Angel's mind and make him live this day, prevailing over all evil (which would severely decrease his despondency), and then sleeping with his newfound love, AFTER getting his son's approval!!! It's GENIUS!!!! He DID attain perfect happiness, albeit it was all an illusion!! Everything was working out for the best! No more Beast! Connor was fine! Cordy was his! And then BAM!! WE GET ANGELUS. I'm sorry i'm rambling, but i absolutely LOOOVEEDDD this episode, and i was DELIGHTED that EVERYTHING that seemed "too right" (like the whole "sword to kill the Beast" thing, and "the beast is dead" thing, and pretty much everything that was going on in Angel's head) was all in his minnddd!!! WOW!!!

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[> But did you like it? -- dub ;o), 09:04:04 07/08/04 Thu

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