July 2003 posts
*Out
of the Chair* - Coda for Season Seven (a.k.a. 'The Endless S7
Review') ... Part III -- OnM, 21:21:02 07/13/03 Sun
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part II ) ~ ~ ~
When last we left our intrepid reviewer and his somewhat less
intrepid (and mostly inebriated) evil sidekick...
well, sidekick really isn't the right term either, but until the
Supreme Court decides otherwise, the chad will just
have to fall where it may, or so we've been told... they had taken
a break from their normal pseudo-intellectual
Buffyverse schmoozefest to log on and Google the recent FOX News
story about the possible existence of "Evil
Pills". And wow, wasn't that a really long sentence? As always,
you can count on MRI (Mirror Research
Institute, a wholly-owned front operation for PATTSI (Pennsylvania
Timely Tax Shelters Inc)) for
more words for less! Anyway, the EP story has proven to be significantly
less than accurate, so it's time to
re-board the bus to Sunnydale, or at least a bus operating somewhere
within an alternate dimension where
Sunnydale isn't a great big hole in the ground:
OnM: I told you it was ridiculous. Just another stupid
scam that gets picked up on and passed around in
a blatant attempt to boost ratings. That's the real evil, I tell
you. When I was a kid, the news was the news, it
wasn't dressed up as something fashionable and presented as infotainment.
Chet Huntley, Dave Brinkley, Walter
C. Que es muy macho, eh?
Evil Clone: Barbara Walters? And isn't 'muy' the wrong
word? Don't you mean to say 'more' and not
'very'?
OnM: Please! Give me Diane Sawyer any day. Or even Leslie
Stahl. Besides, it wasn't about a
male-macho thing, it was about that kind of 'just the facts, ma'am'
presentation those guys were known for. The
news isn't about entertainment, it's about reporting the facts
of whatever situation and keeping the democratic
institutions of the country on a proper heading. I don't think
it's remotely a coincidence that the credibility of our
current governmental institutions is at it's lowest point ever
when the press is a willing party to subterfuge by
evasion and spin.
EC: They've always done that, you just weren't aware of
it. It was behind the scenes, which is a motif
that's far harder to pull off these days, what with the high value
placed on continually feeding the voracious maw
of the electronic news. In the old days where things were mostly
print-oriented, it was easier to take a break in
between events.
OnM: I know they've always done it, but there was a certain
shame and disrepute attached to the act.
Now it's like they actually revel in the iniquity-- it's like
'news, schmooz-- lookit them dollars rollin' in!'. The
ends justify the means all right, but 'the ends' isn't the distribution
of accurate information that is in the public
interest-- 'the ends' is about income for the network.
EC: You expect them to work cheap, or for nothing?
OnM: It's a higher calling, like medicine. The bottom line
is important, I don't dispute that, but the tail
is wagging not only the dog now, it's wagging the whole damn doghouse.
It's what leads to things like Saddam
Hussein's chemists creating 'Evil Pills' that give an excuse for
military actions that backfire at worst and cause
inevitable death and suffering at best.
EC: Hey, Evil Pills could be worse than nukes in the wrong
hands. We could have ended up with a
whole bunch of Saddams. Or even more Jerry Falwells. God would
soon be removing all kinds of protective
shields around America!
OnM: (shudders) Don't go there. Thank the fates it was
bogus. I was almost certain that was the case
from the time you first mentioned it, but that one report we found
about manipulating DNA to strip away the
part of the code that controls the development of the ego and
superego and leave only the id remaining was
pretty scary. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend that
concept into a virus deliverable in pill form that
could genetically reprogram innocent individuals.
EC: Yeah, who was behind that? The national telemarketing
council?
OnM: I think so. The one article at xf.lonegunman.org claimed
it was in response to the recent national
'Do Not Call' legislation. They reasoned that if we were all creatures
of the id, programming an autonomic
response of "Want that! Buy it!" to any sales
presentation would be easy to accomplish. They are calling
far less people, but absolutely everyone buys something, so on
balance they come out ahead.
EC: Tsk. Just think, you try to help the economy, and ya
end up Evil. Go figure.
OnM: Well, I fear it's only a temporary respite. The level
of manipulation is growing steadily on all
fronts, not just the electronic news one. No matter how adept
we are at rejecting it, it wears us down. Eventually
dire consequences could and probably will result.
EC: Speaking of which, are we done talking about Faith
and Spike now? That is, if we're ever going to
get back to discussing the show?
OnM: It's my understanding that there is a board moratorium
of sorts on Spike, but I also think there
are some other boarders who dispute that. I'm not getting involved
other than peripherally. I think all is cool on
the Faith front, but I pretty much covered what I wanted to say
about her character last time around. You have
any final thoughts?
EC: Never. There is always another thought, no thanks
to you! Why couldn't you have stripped
out the think-too-much gene before you pulled me out of the tank?
Like the lady said, what's so great about
really deep thoughts?
OnM: (genuinely sad) Freedom is slavery, e tu God? I honestly
did try to modulate it some, but it didn't
work. Apparently the gene is solipsistic in structure, and keeps
reconstructing itself in its own original image
over and over again. The local rental shop kept threatening to
repossess the electron microscope unless I paid for
another month up front, and it was either that or get the car
fixed. So I had to let it go and move on to other
things.
EC: (looks at the floor, somewhat dejectedly) My mother
the car.
OnM: A Sophie's choice, but that's life in the little city.
Anyway, we can't change the past, we can only
analyze it into submission. So what did you think of the Big Feminist
Statement (tm) at the ending? You know,
with all those new Slayers being called and whatnot?
EC: (brightening) Yeah. Talk about dangerous choices! I
loved it, 'cos it was so righteous and so evil at
the same time!
OnM: (bemused) Go on.
EC: OK, so Buffy has finally done what she has always dreamed
of doing-- freed herself from the
horrible loneliness of being the one and only Slayer, to each
generation etc. etc. A loneliness that only ends in
death, what a great payoff for being a hot chick with superpowers,
right?
OnM: I'm still debating whether that was genuine or ironic
or both.
EC: It's a moment to revel in, she should be ecstatic,
all bubbly and bouncing, but all we see is that
enigmatic little smile. And it's because she knows, there is no
gift without purchase. She's still somewhat in
shock about everything that's happened, so it's mostly subconscious
but it's still gotta be there. She is 'free', but
she has done it by essentially enslaving hundreds, maybe thousands
of other girls around the world, making them
into Slayers without first asking their permission.
OnM: You're right.
EC: (pausing) I am?
OnM: You are-- there's no arguing with the simple fact
of the matter, and that's part of the genius of
the series finale, in that on the surface it appears that the
cosmic balance has been tipped overwhelmingly in favor
of the side of good, but that isn't inherently true. There is
now the possibility for even greater danger in future,
and Buffy and her friends are the prime instigators of that possibility.
EC: Because the presumption is that the new Slayers will
all choose to use their newfound power to
serve the same side that Buffy serves, but they may not. Faith
went down the dark road, and it was something
close to a miracle that she came back. But presumably Buffy and
Co. will immediately set out to recruit the
newly called, and put together some kind of X-Men like organization,
or a 'New Council of Watchers'.
OnM: I think that that is a given, and if there had been
an eighth season, I imagine that this September
we'd be seeing the beginnings of that organization start to take
shape. The original Watcher's Council may have
been misguided in the way that it treated the 'weapon' at its
disposal, but the need to teach the Slayer and
connect her to her heritage is something very necessary. Now that
there are a whole big bunch of Slayers, the
need is exponentially greater.
EC: And as I said before, none of the new Slayers asked
to be called. It is a form of conscription,
no matter how well it was intended.
OnM: You know there were a lot of potentials in the Casa
Summers living room when Buffy gives the
'do you want to be strong' speech. I think we are led to believe
that the whole crowd voted 'yea' and joined
Buffy at the Hellmouth, but it was kinda hard to run up an accurate
count. I wonder if any of them said no
thanks? And even if they did, what difference would that have
made-- the spell Willow cast would have still made
them Slayers. I have had this odd visual running through my head
where Buffy is over in a corner of the room
with five or six angry or frightened young women who are arguing
that they didn't even want to be potentials, let
alone full-fledged Slayers. They just wanna be out of the line
of fire and go home. Buffy needs every single
warrior she can bring to her cause, but how does she reconcile
forcing someone who doesn't want the deal? Not
a good place to be in psychologically.
EC: Well, then they can just sorta die as potentials, then
can't they?
OnM: I assume that would be the direction she would take
with them. But the basic issue is still there,
and irresolvable. Buffy is playing up the need to meet the greater
good, or as Spock put it back on Trek years
ago, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
Taking the big picture into account, she is on solid
ethical ground, but on the other hand, no means no. As I said,
it's irresolvable. Someone's rights will be trampled
on.
EC: So. Let's assume that three of the women choose to
sit out the battle, and the other three join the
main group. Two of them die, one survives. All three of the rejectees
live, of course. So they made the right
decision after all, assuming they bugged outa Sunnydale before
the big battle, natch.
OnM: Except they are now Slayers. Do they have a right
to join the New Council with the rest of the
battle survivors? Or does Buffy tell them to piss off?
EC: I would hope so. No guts, no glory, sez me.
OnM: (chuckling) That's funny, coming from someone whose
idea of guts is staying awake for an
all-night drinking contest at the local pub.
EC: Hey, that was tough! You try it sometime! I was belching
for hours afterward, kept me awake even
longer!
OnM: No thanks, my liver is the regular, non-enhanced 49-year-old
kind. But seriously, I've never been
in the military, and frankly have less than no desire to join
it, now or ever. But I sit here enjoying the freedoms
that were won by those who have put their lives literally on the
line to win them. Even leaving the military out of
it, people from my generation have benefitted from the pro-union
people who made the world a better place to
work in, and without the feminist movement that so many young
women today look at dismissively, there would
be no Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV.
EC: Or the right to vote.
OnM: Well, yeah, that was the implication and all. You
don't get the little things until the big things get
done. But when have I ever done my part to preserve the state
of the union, other than of course my significant
regular contributions to the welfare of wealthy people and their
friends?
EC: They run the country, you help them. Sound like public
service to me!
OnM: I'm not a good example, I grant you, but the dilemma
still exists. None of the protos asked to be
protos. If they don't want to be Slayers, then they shouldn't
have to be Slayers. There's more than one now--
even if only half of say 100 Slayers wanted to serve the New Council,
that's still 48 more than what were there
before.
EC: Maybe Willow could come up with a de-Slayering spell,
and remove the Scythe energy from them.
OnM: Possibly. But it would certainly be in the interests
of the NC to bring as many fighters into the
fold as it could. I imagine that the pressure would be significant,
even if it was friendly pressure.
EC: Now, as I remember, Buffy was unaware that she had
become a Slayer until Merrick found her in
Los Angeles. This has always puzzled me-- how could she not
know she was suddenly gifted? In
Chosen we saw that it was like a big ol' rush-- the girls
knew that something happened, that's for sure.
So one day you feel this cosmic orgasm thing, the next day you
notice that you can outrun the school track star
without breaking a sweat. Or that you were this big ol' spaz and
now you can juggle chainsaws.
OnM: Chainsaws?
EC: Maybe not chainsaws, but you get my point, right?
OnM: I think the honest answer to this is that as the mythology
expanded over the last seven years, Joss
had to choose whether the feminist viewpoint took precedence over
the 'canon' of the early days, especially the
events that were depicted in the movie. For him that was an easy
choice. We never got to see or even hear about
the moments when Faith or Kendra were called, and for that matter
Buffy has never spoken about it even
once during the entire series. So Chosen was the only
time we have ever seen a Slayer called.
EC: (shaking his head emphatically) Wait, you're kidding,
she... (pauses as it sinks in) O my
Honorificus, you're right! That's so freaky!
OnM: O my Honorificus? (concerned) Dude, she's mythical.
Don't be doing that. This is reality
here.
EC: Ewwww! Don't be sayin' nasty things like that! Besides,
I met her!
OnM: No, that was the census lady. You were going to answer
the door, and I pulled you aside, and
you tripped over the couch and bumped your head and got dizzy.
EC: But she was really well dressed! (trying to remember)
Didn't you want me to be counted?
OnM: I was at a loss to explain how you look just like
me but were only three years old. The normal
world just isn't ready for some things.
EC: (muttering very softly) Pot calling the frying pan
burnt...
OnM: Huh? I missed that...
EC: Ferget it. Back to Buffy and the New Council and all.
So the gang all rides off out of the desert and
into the sunset. Only the next day, the sun comes up again, just
like Joyce said. And everyone heads out to start
locating the newly en-Slayed. Naturally, there is much skepticism
on the part of the newbies, and with Sunnydale
gone, it gets tough to convince them of the supernatural nature
of the world. James Randi even finds out about
the goings-on and attempts an intervention. Things get so hairy
that Willow has to transport him to the alternate
universe where Martin Gardner is president and everyone on Earth
subscribes to Scientific American.
OnM: Uhh... yeah, I guess that could happen.
EC: They consider moving to Cleveland, 'cause there's a
Hellmouth there, even though it's only a little
one and the demons mostly just have bad hair days every day and
aren't especially nasty. Buffy initially objects
because Cleveland isn't close enough to the beach and then remembers
that she's the Head Hot Chick with
Superpowers and she's also a pal of the most powerful Wicca in
the western hemisphere who can teleport her to
Brazil anytime she wants.
OnM: Brazil?
EC: Topless beaches. I think visually, remember?
OnM: OK, I get the general idea. But the root problem is
still that if Buffy wants to be democratic about
it, she will give the new Slayers the choice, and they might turn
it down, or worse yet, go the Faith route and
turn to evil, for whatever personality-driven reasons-- greed,
revenge, ego-fulfillment. The NC members will
have to spend their time fighting the subjects of their own creation,
women who might not ever have been a
problem if left unchosen. And in the meantime, ordinary people
could get injured or killed.
EC: It was always possible for a Slayer to go bad, but
there was only one. You kill her off, and another
takes her place, and hopefully things work out better. Now they
have lost that advantage.
OnM: One thing to consider is that we are assuming that
these young women who have been chosen are
typical human women, but that may not be the case. Whatever supernatural
forces govern the selection of
potentials may require that the ones chosen are of a highly moral
nature. We are citing Faith as an example, but
Faith wasn't inherently evil, she had circumstances that pushed
her in that direction and she gave in to human
weakness and followed that path. As I mentioned before, it took
a great deal of strength to turn away from the
darkness that had enveloped her and fight her way back out again.
Having proper mentors is critical, and this was
a problem with the original Watchers Council-- they forgot their
mission was to serve the Slayer and
decided to use her instead.
EC: Those Shadowmen guys were pretty clearly users. Not
hard to see how the mission went missing.
So maybe they didn't forget, they never thought of it that way
at all.
OnM: Or they could have been desperate, and the girl that
they picked to violate was the best available
candidate. If your entire species is facing imminent violent death,
it makes supernaturally raping a girl seem like a
worthwhile tradeoff if doing so prevents it from happening. We
don't know, and I'm not excusing what they did.
Buffy herself acknowledged that war means death and suffering,
and she also admitted thinking that she could
have been mistaken not to accept the shamans 'gift' of greater
power.
EC: But you don't believe that, when that ep aired you
said that you were absolutely convinced that
Buffy did the right thing, that she would find another way.
OnM: Yes, and I haven't changed my mind. But I admire how
ME didn't make it easy for us, at least
not when you think about it. This is another extremely controversial
idea to throw out, but if Spike hadn't
attempted to rape Buffy, and felt remorse about doing so afterward,
he would never have gone to get his soul
back. If he hadn't done that, and if Buffy hadn't eventually accepted
his remorse as being genuine and allowed
him to be the champion that could wear the amulet, the First Evil
could have won. All cause and effect, as I
pointed out in my earlier primary review on Chosen. This
is disconcerting to think about, but there it is.
Also, if Tara hadn't died, Willow wouldn't have been placed in
the circumstances that allowed her to greatly
amplifiy her magical abilities, and she likely could not have
been able to cast the spell that distributed the power
of the Scythe to all the world's potentials.
EC: Hummph. And folks call me evil. I'm not that
evil.
OnM: Buffy won because she could see the bigger picture,
although I think 'sensed' or 'intuited' would
be more accurate terms. There never was any rational reason why
she shouldn't have killed Spike long ago, and
even less reason why she should have forgiven him for the attempted
rape. But she did, and I think we are led to
accept this as proof of Buffy's worthiness as a 'higher being'.
By contrast to Jasmine in AtS, who offers a
'rational' choice to make and thereby turns her followers into
contented cattle who only have the illusion of
freedom, Buffy and her followers insist on shouldering the burden
of choice and accepting the pain and ambiguity
that is unavoidably tied in with doing so.
Another item: I was really struck by how similar this endgame
parallel between the two series evoked the
concept behind Ursula LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away from
Omelas. Jasmine's followers were like
those people in the story who lived in absolute happiness and
contentment because somewhere, a small child
suffered terribly in complete isolation from any human contact.
Buffy was someone who would walk away from
Omelas, who wouldn't accept the deal, and this isn't something
new with her. Back in season three, Buffy gave
the Box of Gavrok back to the Mayor because it was the only way
to save Willow. Wesley insisted that this
wasn't rational, that Willow's death, while unfortunate, would
nevertheless allow them to absolutely bring a halt
to the Mayor's ascension.
EC: And of course, Buffy won't kill Dawn to save the world
in season five. Irrational again.
OnM: Buffy chooses life unless there is absolutely no alternative--
it is her gift. You are full of love,
brighter than the fire. This was never a casually thrown out
line, it was a statement that goes to the very
core of Buffy's heroic nature. People think that Buffy is naive,
and in their defense, she sometimes is, but it isn't
a naivite born of carelessness or stupidity, it's an unwillingness
to accept the easy path, to sell out when it really
counts. That was the whole point of Giles betraying Buffy in Lies.
Giles falls into despair, and falls into
accepting the 'rational' path, which is to say the convenient
one. Buffy has to bitch-slap him back into his
humanity again.
EC: And her 'generalissima' moments? She seemed pretty
'rational' herself there.
OnM: Thereby proving to herself that this was a role that
didn't fit. We saw a number of moments over
the course of several episodes where Buffy admits to her confidants
(Willow, Xander, Spike) that she's
uncomfortable in this leadership role, but thinks that this is
what is expected of her. But the expectations are
those of others around her, not what her own are. She needs
time to realize this. It's there, waiting to come
out, but she needs a bit of a push to accept herself as a leader
whose own methodology is valid and effective.
The final transition takes place after she is faced with rejection
by her sister, the one person she can't rationalize
as being 'against' her. She has to re-evalute her actions, come
to trust herself and her own instincts, not borrow
the instincts of others. That she is capable of doing so is proven
when she passes the mantle of leadership to
Faith, of all people. A lesser being would never have done this,
but her own instincts tell her it is what must be
done. And Faith rises to the challenge, although with some difficulties
along the way, and proves Buffy correct.
And Spike, of course, comes through with the emotional support
that eventually leads Buffy to the Scythe.
EC: The very nifty-looking but very deus ex machina axe
that mysteriously saves the day. Sorta
convenient though, eh?
OnM: I really don't get why there is such a fuss about
this in some quarters. Joss is a comic book fan,
and comic books are chock full of deus ex machinas and always
have been. In the comic universes, stuff just
happens. Unpredictability is the norm.
EC: But there was never the slightest mention of the damn
thing the whole time the series was on the
air. Shouldn't it have been foreshadowed somewhere? You know,
an allusion or a hint or two?
OnM: Why? Isn't it more of a surprise the way it was done?
I really loved the Scythe, and what was
done with it. I can see that if one thinks that 7.22 was 'the
end', then the Scythe was indeed a simplistic plot
device that seemed to come in at the last minute just to save
the day. But the Buffyverse continues to expand and
grow. It's not gone unless Joss unexpectedly croaks, and even
if such a horrid fate should befall the world, I
think Marti and Espenson and Petrie and Fury and Greenwalt and
all the others understand the thing well enough
to make it keep on living. The legacy is real, it will outlive
its creator no matter what.
EC: Gee. Sorta like if I'd outlive you!
OnM: Nuh-uh-uh. Then I think we're doomed. Sorry.
~ ~ ~ ( To Be Continued ) ~ ~ ~
[> Preserving -- Masq,
12:07:56 07/16/03 Wed
[> Preserving...just wrote
longish reply to Odyssey, not up for 'nother just yet -- Random,
15:30:00 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> Preserving again
-- d'Herblay, 21:39:09 07/17/03 Thu
[> argh! shouldn't try to
reply this late... -- anom, 00:07:26 07/17/03 Thu
...esp. when i'm also chatting! OK...save what I have so far...try
tomorrow...post about it to try to keep thread up (again)....
Masq, thanks for bringing it back!
[> scattered comments--hope
they're worth the double thread restoration! -- anom, 10:33:57
07/18/03 Fri
I almost posted this under d'Herblay's "Preserving again"
as "Restored again." Or maybe it should've been "Thanks
again"!
--------------------
"...that one report we found about manipulating DNA to strip
away the part of the code that controls the development of the
ego and superego and leave only the id remaining was pretty scary.
It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend that concept into
a virus deliverable in pill form that could genetically reprogram
innocent individuals."
It's gonna be a loooooonng time before anything like that's possible.
Nobody knows what part of DNA controls the development of the
mind--the brain is complex enough, & we're only at the
very beginning of the Genome Age. Besides, in terms of sales opportunities,
it'd leave everyone broke very soon, & that wouldn't be good for
sales. And how would they get it past the FDA?
"Things get so hairy that Willow has to transport him to
the alternate universe where Martin Gardner is president and everyone
on Earth subscribes to Scientific American."
Heehee! Well, at least cjl would have complete job security!
"They just wanna be out of the line of fire and go home."
But is anyplace going to be out of the line of fire if the Slayer
side doesn't win? How much of a choice is the other side
gonna give them? This is the thumb on the scale of Buffy's decision
to activate potentials even though some--maybe even most--of them
have no idea what's going on.
"Now, as I remember, Buffy was unaware that she had become
a Slayer until Merrick found her in Los Angeles. This has always
puzzled me-- how could she not know she was suddenly gifted? In
Chosen we saw that it was like a big ol' rush-- the girls knew
that something happened, that's for sure."
I'd like to offer a slight fanwank: the Willow-enhanced spell
gave an extra boost to the awakening of the Slayer power that
made it perceptible, whether any particular Potential was expecting
it or not. Or having it happen to so many at once gave it a synergy
that had the same effect. (It occurred to me to wonder if the
Scythe had glowed every time a new Slayer was called over thousands
of years.) In a way, it reminds me of the "click" that
was referred to so often in Ms. magazine's letter pages,
when a woman realized that something she'd always accepted as
the way things were was restricting her based on her sex. When
just a few women were coming to such realizations on an individual
basis, they might not have connected it to society-wide conditions.
But when it happens on a larger scale, when it starts to affect
an entire society's consciousness, there's something to "click"
into, and the women who experience such a moment are more aware
of it. Maybe that's the metaphor.
"OnM: OK, I get the general idea. But the root problem is
still that if Buffy wants to be democratic about it, she will
give the new Slayers the choice, and they might turn it down,
or worse yet, go the Faith route and turn to evil.... The NC members
will have to spend their time fighting the subjects of their own
creation.... And in the meantime, ordinary people could get injured
or killed.
EC: It was always possible for a Slayer to go bad, but there was
only one. You kill her off, and another takes her place, and hopefully
things work out better. Now they have lost that advantage."
They do have a new advantage, though...their own experience w/the
dark side. Faith herself, Willow, Buffy...they have an understanding
the old Council never could have of what power can do to a person,
& they might be able to reach possible rogue Slayers the way Angel
almost reached Faith after she'd killed Finch...until the Council
interfered. Of course, they're not around to do that anymore,
are they? The problem is that the New Council would have to find,
& try to intervene with, any rogues on a case-by-case basis. I
wonder how much detail there is in Willow's ability to "feel"
all the new Slayers. Can she locate them? Tell what their mental
state is? Know the best approach to take for each one?
And on a more general scale, the diversity of experience among
the Sunnydale Slayers (sheesh--sounds like a sports team!) may
help them relate to more of the new Slayers than a smaller group
could & let them bring more of them into the fold.
"Whatever supernatural forces govern the selection of potentials
may require that the ones chosen are of a highly moral nature.
We are citing Faith as an example, but Faith wasn't inherently
evil, she had circumstances that pushed her in that direction
and she gave in to human weakness and followed that path."
But isn't that always the case? Is any human "inherently
evil"? We could ask this of the real world as well as the
Buffyverse, but in the latter, it's made explicit that the human
soul predisposes people to good, so turning to evil would always
require circumstances to give a push. I don't think even Warren
was presented as inherently evil.
"But I admire how ME didn't make it easy for us, at least
not when you think about it. This is another extremely controversial
idea to throw out, but if Spike hadn't attempted to rape Buffy,
and felt remorse about doing so afterward, he would never have
gone to get his soul back. If he hadn't done that, and if Buffy
hadn't eventually accepted his remorse as being genuine and allowed
him to be the champion that could wear the amulet, the First Evil
could have won. All cause and effect, as I pointed out in my earlier
primary review on Chosen. This is disconcerting to think about,
but there it is. Also, if Tara hadn't died, Willow wouldn't have
been placed in the circumstances that allowed her to greatly amplifiy
her magical abilities, and she likely could not have been able
to cast the spell that distributed the power of the Scythe to
all the world's potentials."
This train of thought could indeed be disconcerting. But the "cause"
events we saw may not have been the only ones that could have
brought about the "effect" ones. For example, if Spike
had already been dusted, or had remained soulless but survived,
Angel could have worn the amulet. (I'm talking just about the
internal reality of the show here--obviously he couldn't have
suffered Spike's fate & still have been back for his own show's
next season. And Buffy would have been devastated at leaving him
behind to burn--we'd never have seen that smile at the end.) They
could also have come up w/another way for Willow's powers to expand.
On the other hand, it may be even more disconcerting that there
were other possible causes, but these were the ones that actually
did lead to the effects.
I'm really glad you mentioned LeGuin, & the Guide's line from
Intervention. I hadn't thought of Buffy's forgiveness of Spike
in light of "Love...give...forgive" before. Now I can
hardly believe I didn't!
"Freedom is slavery,...teleport her to Brazil anytime she
wants."
Yes, I'm going for the longest ellipsis interval on record here.
What the hell connection could there possibly be between what
comes before & after that ellipse? Why, just coincidence, of course--I
happened to see the 1985 movie Brazil on Sunday, for the
1st time. It's funny & horrifying & it takes place in a dystopia
w/blatantly Orwellian billboard exhortations (maybe not "Freedom
is slavery," but close) & ministry names; the ending, although
less ambiguous, made me think of Normal Again (just to keep from
ending this post totally O/T). [BTW, I gotta digress to say I
saw it at Symphony Space's Thalia theater, & it was so
nice not to have to sit through 20 minutes of ads & previews.
The place was actually quiet until the feature began!]
[> [> ...it's gonna be
gone again, isn't it? despite my blatantly desperate attempt to
preserve it -- anom, *almost* resigned, 17:25:42 07/18/03
Fri
[> so much to say about
this...but not tonight--sleep 1st! -- anom, doing my part
to keep the thread up, 23:13:39 07/13/03 Sun
[> 'Fascinating',I say,
raising one Spocklike eyebrow.. -- jane, 23:28:48 07/13/03
Sun
[> Choices - Out of Eden
-- Rahael, 03:31:45 07/14/03 Mon
One of the things that I have been thinking about re Buffy's final
choice, and the argument that this is really enslaving young women.
I should state up front that I don't think it is enslavement.
Will the demons go away, the vampires, the monsters, the things
that lurk in the night, if Buffy hadn't made that choice? No,
they would not have.
Would these girls have been spared the dilemmas and pains that
Buffy has faced, metaphorically represented by these demons, if
she hadn't allowed the potential to awaken? No.
What did Buffy do exactly? She gave them eyes to see the demons,
and the emotional strength to fight them. And it's important that
they were potentials, because it means that the power was already
there. Buffy just awoke it.
I was struck by a quote from a recent Joss interview, about loneliness.
How he had always been lonely. And that was something that really
leapt at me. I don't think Buffy's loneliness will simply go away
because she's shared her power. I think the loneliness and sadness
that sometimes pervaded the Buffyverse is a loneliness and sadness
that I share, and one that cannot be divested simply because one
is no longer alone. I do not face death with equanimity.
But I think we are meant to understand that Buffy came to some
kind of resolution when she watched Spike die. She was able to
come close to the time when she watched Angel die, when she killed
Angel, and once again face this crucial moment, and come to some
kind of resolution. Does she know this time that it wasn't the
end? Was the crucial point this time that Spike knew what would
happen to him, and was able to accept it? Angel died with his
eyes closed, still loving Buffy - she deceived him. Spike died
with his eyes open, denying Buffy's love. A lie? A truth? Or something
that was not untrue and not unkind. (I am here not suggesting
that one vamp is better than the other. I am suggesting that Spike
and Angel stand in for each other, especially since we know that
Buffy specifically denies Angel as the one to be sacrificed this
time around).
The sharing of power is linked to Buffy's fear of death in anotehr
way. Throughout season 7, we learn that the most terrible thing
about the Slayer line is that one slayer had to die before the
next is called. This is what is so destructive about being a Slayer
- not the naughty black evil, but that all these girls are just
waiting for Buffy to die so they can be the chosen one. That is
the destructive cycle that Buffy finally breaks. That's how she
conquers death twice in Chosen. That's why the message of Chosen
is Rebirth, just as the series ends.
And yes, the Choice she makes isn't all light. The girls will
face hardship because they will use their power in the service
of others. But, can anyone on this board say that they have not
faced hardships and pain? I am the last person who says that pain
ennobles. But I do think helping others, reaching out, and finding
a place in the world through a sense of community mitigates the
loneliness, the sadness, and enriches our sense of our own self,
because the idea of self is only made meaningful by the existence
of others. Other, important, loveable, respectworthy selves.
[> [> Entirely positive
post about S7! Catch them while you can! -- Rahael, 03:32:58
07/14/03 Mon
and yes, this is a blatant attempt to keep the thread alive.
[> [> [> *sob* You
don't know how happy you've made me, Rah! -- The Cheerleadery
One, tissue-box in hand, 08:38:37 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Hehe,
Rob! and Thanks, OnM! -- Rahael, 16:24:28 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
Rah! You *know* we resolved at the last meeting that...
-- Random, 23:12:52 07/16/03 Wed
we weren't allowed to make Rob any happier. He will explode from
joy and that would be bad...I mean, the mess will incredibly icky
to clean up. So remember: Miserable Rob = returned security deposit.
[> [> Very nice - an
excellent defense of the situation. Thanks! -- OnM, 07:36:16
07/14/03 Mon
[> [> She liked it!
-- ponygirl, 09:46:46 07/14/03 Mon
Well, at least that part!
Very nice, Rah. I don't quite get the problem some have with Buffy's
decision in Chosen. Yes, we have been trained to see the negative
side of Slayerdom, to understand that it is a burden more than
a gift. But in many ways it is the burden of living. Hot chick
with superpowers aside, what Buffy faces are the problems of being
alive in the world on a grand metaphorical scale. None of us ask
to be born, but I think most parents would wish for their child
to be powerful, to have the strength to make choices, for good
or for ill.
Buffy is giving these girls something that she never had - a shared
burden. None of them will ever have to be the only girl in all
the world. Their deaths will be their own, not the condemnation
of another to the same fate.
[> [> [> And of course
one of the major signs that the spell was of the good...Will went
WHITE. -- Rob, 10:08:16 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Actually
that I didn't like so much -- ponygirl, 13:44:12 07/14/03
Mon
I don't think Willow should have to be checking her roots for
reassurance about whether a spell is good or bad... but they had
established the dark hair thing from last year and of course the
Gandalf tie-in.
[> [> [> [> [>
As a visual symbol, though, it was a concise way to display
this w/o saying it expositionally. -- Rob, 14:23:02 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Agreed -- ponygirl, 14:38:18 07/14/03 Mon
[> So Where are Parts I
and II? -- Dochawk - who misses too much when he goes on vacation,
07:00:11 07/14/03 Mon
Though the vacation was clearly worth it and necessary.
[> [> Apologize on the
slowness of the archives -- Masq, 07:11:12 07/14/03 Mon
Breaking in some new archivers, and having some busy life stuff
going on myself. I can find the first two parts on my hard drive
and send them to you if you want.
[> [> I'll get 'em mailed
to you, Doc. You should already have the main review. -- OnM,
07:29:29 07/14/03 Mon
I mailed that out last week or thereabouts. If you didn't get
it, let me know.
The Dawn Paradox
(potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk)
-- ZachsMind, 09:14:06 07/14/03 Mon
Now that the entire seven year run is behind us, and we can see
the entire tapestry laid out without concern for that which is
missing, there's one thing which I find intriguing. And granted,
we can surmise that the story will continue to unfold in Angel
in an indirect way but for all intents and purposes the story
of Sunnydale itself has been capsulized with the cratering of
Sunnydale. So the events inside Sunnydale, except where affecting
the outside world, can be dissected, reversed, turned inside and
out, etcetera, without much fear of continuity reprisal. I mean,
I couldn't ask the question I'm about to pose at the end of season
five, but I should be able to do so now.
That question is this: what if Dawnie was there from Day One?
What if Joss had thought that far ahead? What we know is that
immediately after Dracula's appearance (and subsequent disappearance)
from Sunnydale, Dawn just magically appears, and all the Scoobies
(apparently everyone in Sunnydale except the occasional lunatic)
just immediately accepts her in their continuity. Even the godlike
Glory can stare right at her and not see the truth, despite the
fact that half the time she was insane herself.
So we're led to assume that temporally, Dawn was a green glowing
glob somewhere in a monastery until September of 2000. However,
after September of 2000, everyone had memories of Dawn having
been in their lives. We're given hints throughout the rest of
the series precisely what those memories are, and that after the
initial shock in season five, the Scoobies just naturally accept
this rewrite of their past to accomodate Dawn's presence. So that,
for all intents and purposes, Dawn is subjectively real. From
the perspective of Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles, Dawnie was
there with them since Buffy's first day of school in March of
1997.
Precisely what happened in those interum years, at least in the
memories of our Scooby gang? It's theorized that had the animated
series been successful, this rewrite would have been made more
clear. However, since that may not be the case, and since we fans
of the series are now facing an indeterminate amount of time where
the stories of the Scoobies' future are left in doubt, perhaps
now's an opportunity for a little retcon. Can we reverse engineer
the first four years of Buffy's history to ascertain where Dawnie
might have fit in? Can this be done without adversely affecting
the history, or would her presence have naturally made dramatic
changes, like bring Jonathan or Amy more into the Scooby fold,
for example? Or since she would have been in junior high while
Buffy was in high school, and then high school when her sister
was in college, would Dawnie have had little to no effect those
first three years?
When did Dawn learn of Buffy's Slayer powers, and why didn't she
tell Joyce? How did Dawn's infatuation with Xander develop? How
would Dawn have interacted with Cordy, Angel, Oz, Snyder, Faith
or other characters?
Would this make the overall story more enjoyable, or less? What
do you think?
[> What Do We Know? (The
Dawn Paradox continued) -- ZachsMind, 13:51:40 07/14/03
Mon
Since no one else is taking the bait, I'll try to sweeten the
worm a little bit.
Dawn's first appearance in the BuffyVerse is Episode 1 of Season
5 at the very end. The original airdate was September 26th, 2000.
This is like, Ground Zero. Everything after this point lends us
potential clues for what went on before, if only in the memories
of our principal players. The source material confirms that Dawn
was ten years old in season one ("Shadow") and fourteen
in season five ("Crush"). We're never told when (they
believe) her birthday is. That may be because it's in the summer
some time.
In "Real Me" we learn that Joyce often leaves Dawn in
Buffy's hands to watch over, even when Buffy is doing her Slayer
training duties with Giles. We learn Dawn has decided opinions
about each of the principals, recalling that old-timer Giles once
used the word "newfangled." Ironically, I can find only
one other instance when that word was used, and it wasn't Giles
who said it. Dawn seemed to always look up to Tara & Willow, and
she had a crush on Xander early on, who apparently had often been
her babysitter in the first four years. Apparently this was the
first time she met a crazy person. Until this moment she had no
clue to her strange existence.
The pickings get a little slim after the first episode, but glimpses
into the memories of Dawn & the others are given throughout the
bulk of the fifth season. In the episode "No Place Like Home"
Buffy hints that Dawn never could take an apology, which insinuates
Buffy's had to apologize to her before. "Ever since.."
Buffy's voice trails off. We do not know the details, only that
there was one other time. Perhaps a painful time.
In season five's "Family" we learn Dawn has a biased
opinion against alcohol, but appears oblivious to the fact many
of Buffy's friends occasionally partake. Why she has this opinion
though is not made clear.
In "Shadow" we learn Dawn has a memory about riding
a carousel with Buffy and Joyce for a full hour on her birthday.
This was when she was ten, and was according to Dawn during her
first year in Sunnydale (some time in season one). We also learn
there is some kind of history between Riley & Dawn which may or
may not have leaked into the preceding year (season four). Dawn
notes that Buffy cried less while dating Riley than she did when
dating Angel.
"Into The Woods" Dawn reported a memory where she used
to put chopsticks in her mouth like fangs, and Buffy would chase
her around the house yelling "I'm a slayer, I'm gonna get
you." This may have only happened once, or perhaps a few
times. It may have been soon after Dawn learned Buffy's secret
some time in season two or three. Probably when Joyce wasn't around,
because if Joyce saw Dawn running around with chopsticks in her
mouth it woulda been worse than running with scissors to a parent.
Dawn later points out whenever she plays games with Anya & Xander
(potentially late season three onward) that Anya always wins.
There's also a moment where Dawn admits that on more than one
occasion, Buffy has managed to have Dawn put into the custody
of someone else (usually Xander) "so Buffy and Riley can
bonk." Although Buffy spent most of season four away from
home, it's apparent that this behavior has been going on for awhile.
It might have happened once or twice before "Real Me."
In "Triangle" we're given a hint that Dawn had to warm
up to Riley. That at first she didn't like him but just before
Buffy & Riley broke up she was warming up to him, probably because
of the Buffy doesn't cry around Riley like she did around Angel
thing.
The first time Dawn & Spike really talk to one another is in "Blood
Ties," but their interchange indicates they were familiar
with one another already, probably on a very peripheral level
(like in season two when Spike was still all GrrrArghy). This
may be the first time they were alone together. Had Spike & Dawn
actually had words prior to "Blood Ties," it was when
Spike was decidedly more evil, which would have given Dawn's attitude
towards him in that episode much more weight. His first nickname
for her is 'Nibblet' and he says it as if he's referred to her
in that manner before.
However, in "Crush" we're led to believe Dawn had never
been in Spike's crypt before, that she only then realized how
Spike travels by the sewers in the daytime, and that she wouldn't
have even dared be around Spike alone before she realized she
wasn't really human. So if Dawn met Spike back in season two,
it was definitely while she was tagging along with the other Scoobies,
and NEVER by herself.
By "Blood Ties" Dawn has learned about her true nature,
and even cut herself in an attempt to prove her humanity to herself.
Joyce & Buffy try to comfort her but she begins to feel the weight
of having memories of a life unlived. This begs the question:
never in the history of the series have WE seen Dawn and Hank
(her father) together. Hank only made a couple appearances in
the first two seasons of the series ("Nightmares & "When
She Was Bad" predominantly). Having not been in Sunnydale
from that point onward, would he even recall Dawn? Or did the
monks' magicks have no affect on him? WE know that the monks made
Dawn out of Buffy's blood, so technically she's a magical clone
of Buffy. She's not really Joyce & Hank's child. Although Dawn
remembers Hank as her father, would Hank have any recollection
of Dawn? And would prolonged exposure to Dawn cause Hank to slowly
get brain cancer and die, like what happened to Joyce? Has this
already happened anyway?
We learn from Glory in "Blood Ties" that Dawn's true
nature is "a bright green swirly shimmer." At least
that's what she looked like when Glory last saw Dawn's true self
(probably circa 12th century in Tarnis). However, Dawn's never
revealed in that way throughout the series, with the potentially
apocryphal exception of season seven, when Willow does a magic
spell that goes through Dawn & the door and hits Amanda, we see
a glimpse of a YELLOW ball of energy inside Dawn. This could be
cuz the energy Willow shot out was yellow. It may have no bearing
on Dawn's true self, but it sure looks suspicious.
Hmm... twelfth century. This means Dawn is almost as old as Anya.
Possibly older. Trivially, we're told Dawn got an allowance from
Joyce but we don't know how much it was.
[> [> Re: What Do We
Know? (The Dawn Paradox continued) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:39:14
07/14/03 Mon
"Hank......Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward,
would he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect
on him? WE know that the monks made Dawn out of Buffy's blood,
so technically she's a magical clone of Buffy. She's not really
Joyce & Hank's child. Although Dawn remembers Hank as her father,
would Hank have any recollection of Dawn? And would prolonged
exposure to Dawn cause Hank to slowly get brain cancer and die,
like what happened to Joyce? Has this already happened anyway?"
Hmmmm... ok..First off, I think that since Angel and Faith both
remember Dawn (neither of them actually being around when Dawn
was introduced), its a pretty safe bet that Hank does. After all,
he was her 'father' and therefore more likely to go visit the
family in Sunnydale than the imprisoned psycho Slayer, or the
vampire ex-boyfriend.
Secondly, and I realise that this is a common theory amongst some,
why is it that people think that Dawn somehow caused Joyce's tumour?
It was stated time and again by the writers that Joyce's illness
was there to show A) that Buffy can't fight *everything* and B)
that sometimes people die from non-demonic causes ('no monsters
involved' say officials).
And if prolonged exposure to inter-dimensional energy-based artificial
life-forms who happen to unlock portals between worlds caused
brain (or any other type) cancer, why aren't any of the scoobs
dead, or suffering, from it? Not to mention the fact that Hank
clearly has not had prolonged exposure to Dawn (he may have memories
of her, but so far as we know, he has never actually met her)
so wouldn't have been magickally irradiated by her.
Oh, and although we didn't see it ourselves, Willow could see
Dawnie as all green and glowy at the end of S6, when she was all
evil and veiny.
I always wondered if Dru would be able to tell, you know, what
with being psychic *and* crazy.
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> Why Dawn
caused Joyce's brain tumor... -- ZachsMind, 06:54:46 07/15/03
Tue
There was no history of Joyce having medical conditions prior
to season five - Dawn's first appearance.
The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce
was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's
true nature. Joyce's psyche could not accept the fact that she
had given birth to two children when her body knew otherwise.
Ask any mother, anyone who's experienced the process of birth,
if a magic spell could convince them it's happened more times
than they have experienced, and they'll tell you no way.
Dawn's presence was messing with Joyce's mind, which just happened
to be where the tumor was located. Coincidental and circumstantial,
but coupled with the time factor and the whole "crazy people
can see Dawn" thing, it's enough for me.
If Joyce had been dying of anything not related to the brain then
I'd agree with you. However, I firmly believe that if Dawn never
showed up, Joyce would have still been around. She wouldn't have
died from after-effects of brain surgery.
In season six, we're given a glimpse of either a delusional world
inside Buffy's head, or an alternate reality accessed by a demon,
that shows us a world where Buffy didn't have slayer powers but
was instead stuck in an insane asylum. In that alternate reality,
Hank and Joyce were together, and six years after the events depicted
in the motion picture, Joyce was still alive and well, and there
never was a Dawn. So IF that was an alternate reality and not
a figment of Buffy's imagination, then that solidifies it.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Why Dawn caused Joyce's brain tumor... -- O'Cailleagh, 07:35:45
07/15/03 Tue
"There was no history of Joyce having medical conditions
prior to season five"
How about before the show began? We don't know Joyce's medical
history, or that of her parents etc. Besides which, illnesses
of all kinds can manifest without a person having ever been previously
ill.
It *could* have been any number of things that caused the tumour,
such as using cell phones, living in close proximity to power
lines, or a very large amount of physical and/or emotional stress.
"The writers established that as her condition worsened,
Joyce was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to
see Dawn's true nature. Joyce's psyche could not accept the fact
that she had given birth to two children when her body knew otherwise."
Brain tumours are known to cause odd behaviour and the like...I
hesitate to use the term psychotic...the reason for this is the
tumour presses on the part of the brain it has formed in, this
affects the working of the brain.
"Ask any mother, anyone who's experienced the process of
birth, if a magic spell could convince them it's happened more
times than they have experienced, and they'll tell you no way."
Well since most people don't believe in the existence of magick,
this wouldn't surprise me. However, it would be entirely possible
to convince a mother that she had given birth a different number
of times through hypnosis, for example. Also mental illness could
have a similar effect. My grandmother, who suffered from Alzheimer's,
was convinced that my sister and I were her children, in addition
to the four children she had in 'reality'.
"Dawn's presence was messing with Joyce's mind, which just
happened to be where the tumor was located."
The tumour was located in the brain, not the mind, they are two
different things, connected, but different. Unless you're saying
that the tumour was located in the part of the brain that was
producing the odd behaviour. In which case, I addressed that above.
To reiterate, it was the tumour causing the odd behaviour, not
the other way around.
"In season six, we're given a glimpse of either a delusional
world inside Buffy's head, or an alternate reality accessed by
a demon, that shows us a world where Buffy didn't have slayer
powers but was instead stuck in an insane asylum. In that alternate
reality, Hank and Joyce were together, and six years after the
events depicted in the motion picture, Joyce was still alive and
well, and there never was a Dawn. So IF that was an alternate
reality and not a figment of Buffy's imagination, then that solidifies
it."
Yes, it was either a delusion, or it was an Alternate Universe.
If it was delusion, then..well that explains itself. If however
it was an AU, then that also explains itself. It was an Alternate
Universe. Emphasis on Alternate. They are called this because
things turned out differently causing alternate events to happen.
This would be why Hank is still with the family, why they are
still in LA, why Buffy isn't a Slayer, and why Sunnydale doesn't
even exist. Choices affect the future, you make different choices,
and different events unfold.
The fact that Hank and Joyce divorced had nothing to do with Dawn
in the 'real' Buffyverse (since she was still just the Key at
this point) so obviously, her not being in the Asylumverse had
nothing to do with why Hank and Joyce are *not* divorced. So why
is it that Joyce still being alive does?
Maybe, in the Asylumverse, the lack of Slayer related stress for
Joyce (emotional trauma), and the deficit of attempts on her life
(physical and emotional trauma), are what saves her from developing
cancer. Or maybe her diet was better, including more anti-oxidants
and less free-radicals. Who knows?
Its an interesting theory, it really is, but it doesn't stand
up to any kind of scrutiny, plus it flies in the face of what
the writers told us about Joyce's death. They maybe contradictory
sometimes, or misdirect us on occasion, but outright lying about
the show isn't something that they really do. Except when spoilers
are an issue of course.
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> That
argument ONLY works if the asylumverse is real... -- Rob,
07:36:59 07/15/03 Tue
And the important thing we learned in that episode was that it
was not important which reality was really real, but what
was most real to Buffy. Buffy chose the red pill, or the blue
pill, or whatever. She made her decision. Thus that is what really
happened. Also, as stated before, there is more proof in that
episode that the Asylum is the dream than vice versa, such as
the fact that we are almost always in Buffy's POV in the Asylum
scenes (except for the end), but not always in the Sunnydale scenes.
There are no scenes in the Asylum without Buffy in them; Buffy
is not in every Sunnydale scene.
The writers established that as her condition worsened, Joyce
was becoming erratically psychotic, which allowed her to see Dawn's
true nature.
And that, IMO, is all that is important. To begin with, we were
given a red herring, when Joyce was able to see Dawn wasn't there,
then fainted. It was a direct mislead to get us to believe that
Dawn might possibly be evil, or, at least, causing the tumor.
At that time, many of us were suspicious as to her true nature.
Later though it was clear that Joyce's sickness was of completely
natural causes. It allowed her to see Dawn for who she really
is, just like all people with mental afflictions, but as you said,
it's completely circumstantial and coincidental. The fact that
her death in The Body is completely non-supernatural in
anyway is very important.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
So are we to assume... -- ZachsMind, 12:45:29 07/15/03
Tue
So are we to assume, had Dawn never showed up, Joyce would have
died of complications from a brain tumor anyway? I don't buy that.
Yes of course the writers wanted us to believe Dawn was evil.
It helped with the suspense and allowed for opportunities of surprise
and reveal. I'm not insinuating Dawn ever was evil. She's not.
However, her arrival was a catalyst that caused Joyce's illness.
There was no indication Joyce was sick before Dawn's arrival.
Dawn shows up in 5.1, is featured prominently in 5.2, and Joyce
starts getting headaches in 5.3.
JOYCE: (sighs, puts hand to her forehead) This must be my "two
teenage girls in the house" headache. I thought it felt familiar.
BUFFY: Good work, Dawn. You gave her a headache.
DAWN: I did not! (to Joyce) Did I give you a headache, Mom? I'm
sure part of it is Buffy's.
BUFFY: But part of it is Dawn's.
JOYCE: It's so nice you've learned to share.
It is insinuated this is not the first headache she's had because
of having "two teenage girls in the house." I'll grant
that, but it's only because the infiltration of artificial memories
grew retroactively from the point of "Temporal Ground Zero"
which is around September of 2000. There's no previous indication
in the first four seasons that Joyce got head aches. In fact the
only other time I can recall headaches being mentioned prominently
in the series was in season one, during The Puppet Show. And it
was about one of the Scoobies' classmates, not about Joyce at
all.
And to be fair, Dawn was only indirectly causing Joyce's cancer.
The direct cause was the powerful magic that the monks introduced
into the world. Dawn can't actually be blamed for it. As Willow
would be the first to attest, powerful magic like this does not
come without a price. In order for Dawn's life to begin, there
had to be a sacrifice.
Ultimately that's what this was. The trading of one life for another.
The one closest to Buffy. Had Dawn not torn that picture in half
in "Forever" Joyce would have come back completely normal,
and Dawn would have died. Probably right there on the spot. There's
a curious balance and order to the universe that not even magic
can prevent.
Of course then there'd be this green glowing thing where Dawn
had been, everybody would have immediately forgotten about Dawn
cuz the spell would have been broken by another spell, and then
Glory woulda found the green glowing glob and destroyed the world
before Buffy had a chance to figure out what was going on, so
everything turned out for the best but we still had to lose Joyce
in order to get Dawn. Dawn's life meant Joyce's death.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: So are we to assume... -- O'Cailleagh, 01:33:01
07/16/03 Wed
Well...you're clearly not willing to listen to other people's
points of view on this whole thing. Rob, Anom and myself have
all given you very good reasons for Dawn not being the cause of
the cancer. The most important one being because the writers said
so. You may as well say that Joyce's illness was caused by Buffy
saying (in S1?) "I hope it's a funny aneurism".
Like I said, it *is* an interesting theory, it just doesn't pan
out. Apologies for any typos or if this came off as snarky, I'm
very tired cos I've been out all night, but wanted to respond
before Voynak came a-chomping.
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> it wasn't me -- anom, 09:34:44 07/16/03
Wed
Thanks, but I can't take credit. I didn't address the issue of
whether Dawn's existence had anything to do w/Joyce's tumor.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Oops! My bad, sorry anom. -- O'Cailleagh,
13:29:48 07/16/03 Wed
It seems my sleep-deprived state twisted my memory of your post
around!
O'Cailleagh
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I do listen to other points of view... -- ZachsMind,
13:25:22 07/16/03 Wed
Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. =P
[> [> 3 things, for now
-- anom, 10:36:21 07/15/03 Tue
I should start by admitting I haven't had time to read this whole
thread, so I hope I'm not repeating anything that's already been
said.
"Apparently this was the first time she met a crazy person.
Until this moment she had no clue to her strange existence."
Since Dawn had existed for only a short time, it may well have
been the 1st time. She may have memories that she was created
with of meeting crazy people before, but those memories would
have been of "normal" encounters with crazy people,
meaning the same kind people who aren't the Key have w/them. Dawn's
memories of the time since she was imposed on reality (that's
a Borges reference) are real memories & need to be distinguished
from the ones that were created by the monks.
"Having not been in Sunnydale from that point onward, would
he even recall Dawn? Or did the monks' magicks have no affect
on him?"
This q. has come up before (I was one of the ones asking them).
We've seen that Angel & Faith remembered Dawn even though they
weren't in Sunnydale when she was created (or transformed from
the green energy). Angelus retains the memory back in LA--he calls
& talks to Dawn to find out if Buffy is the Slayer he hears is
around, & it's implied Angel had previously kept in touch & knew
of her, probably before he came back to Sunnydale for Joyce's
funeral. So Hank probably has memories of Dawn too.
One difference I can think of in how the earlier storyline might
have run is that when Buffy sent Joyce out of town before graduation,
it might have been a lot easier to convince her to go if she'd
been taking Dawn to safety. Joyce would probably have put up less
of an argument & felt less as though she were abandoning Buffy
in the face of a threat.
[> Re: The Dawn Paradox
(potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk)
-- Wolfhowl3, 09:43:56 07/14/03 Mon
My guess is that Dawn found out about Buffy being the slayer at
the same time the Joyce did. (end of Season 2)
I'm guessing that one of the major differences is that Angelus
would have targetted Dawn as well as Buffy's Friends, maybe even
trying to kill her when he showed up to kill Joyce.
Wolfie
[> [> Re: The Dawn Paradox
(potential spoilage of overall series - enter at own risk)
-- ZachsMind, 10:10:02 07/14/03 Mon
Just Angel? Would the Master not have targetted Dawnie in season
one? Dru in season two? Adam in season four? What about Faith?
Dawnie being added into the mix brings about a lot of possibilities
not otherwise available.
As for learning the same time Joyce did, I can't quite agree with
that. The reason is because of "Ted." Buffy reacted
coldly to Ted. Dawnie would have been even moreso. In fact this
is one of the areas where the girls had something in common -
they would have percieved Ted as an interloper, trying to replace
their father. Dawn would not have warmed up to Ted any more than
Buffy did.
I surmise from this that the sharing of a common enemy would have
temporarily forced a truce between the two siblings, and in the
course of fighting Ted, Dawn would have seen where Joyce was still
oblivious. Basically her big sister being ubernatural in kicking
butt against a robot. If prior to "Ted" Dawn hadn't
figured out Buffy was up to the same old tricks she before the
three of them had to move, after that episode it would have been
impossible for her to deny it.
Sexy Riley?
-- Rina, 09:58:00 07/14/03 Mon
It's ironic how many people either assume that Riley wasn't a
very sexual man. Or that the actor Marc Blucas, wasn't very good
at projecting sexuality.
A few days ago, I watched the episode, "Something Blue".
Remember the scene where Riley took Buffy on a picnic? And when
she revealed that she doesn't drive? Well, Riley was stating the
pleasures of driving and I had the unusual feeling that he was
using it as a metaphor for sex. And I must be honest, I was just
as turned on by his description as Buffy obviously was.
[> Re: Sexy Riley? --
LadyStarlight, 10:12:55 07/14/03 Mon
I caught that too when I was rewatching that, Rina.
I think it was the whole package (tone of voice, the look on his
face) that sold that scene.
[> [> Re: Sexy Riley?
- or Marc Blucas? -- curious, 10:29:29 07/14/03 Mon
I always thought Marc Blucas was a pretty competent actor and
liked Riley well enough - especially after he grows past his black
and white trust of the Initiative and Maggie. I just didn't find
that he and SMG had a lot of sexual chemistry together. Part of
it was that he is sooo much bigger than she is. (Seth Green comments
on his size on the s4 DVD.) But petite women seem to go for big
guys so maybe that's just my predjudice.
I also recall a JW comment to the effect that they tried to give
Buffy a nice boyfriend and the audience thought she walked all
over him. I wasn't sure if he was kidding and that was his intention
in writing B/R or if he was frustrated that the audience couldn't
see Buffy with anyone but Angel.
BTW, Blucas is in a new movie called "I Capture the Castle"
based on J.K. Rowling's favorite book. I think he plays a romantic
character. Might be interesting to see how he pulls off that role.
[> [> [> I Capture
the Castle -- LadyStarlight, 10:39:32 07/14/03 Mon
That's one of my favorite books (and a big reason why I spent
money I really didn't have when QPBC released it a while back)
and I'm waffling about making a movie out of it.
MB will fit the role, I think, but I've been terribly disappointed
by movies based on books before. (I'm still traumatized by "Clan
of the Cave Bear") But I'll reserve judgement until I see
the movie.
I liked him in "We Were Soldiers" and thought he did
a great job.
[> [> [> Sexy Marc
Blucas? ::light goes on in my lil pointy head:: -- Wicked
Buffy, 10:45:12 07/14/03 Mon
Interesting point!
Just now, when I tried separating the actor from the character,
I discovered it was Marc Blucas I didn't care for - not Riley.
I always thought I didn't care much for Riley, but it wasn't that.
Just my personal taste, of course. If I try imagining someone
else, anyone else* playing the role of Riley, I like the
character MUCH more.
What a nice way to start the day. I don't like not liking an ME
character. :>
*possible choices that I mentally substituted in Blucas'
role: Johnny Depp, Antonia Bandaras, Barbara Streisand, Sylvester
Stallone, Marilyn Manson, Al Gore, PeeWee Herman. see? I really
did give MB a chance! :>
[> [> [> [> Re:
Sexy Marc Blucas? ::light goes on in my lil pointy head::
-- purplegrrl, 11:04:30 07/14/03 Mon
**Sylvester Stallone**
My brain just went to a "Yo, Buffy" place, which made
me laugh!!
Personally I think Marc Blucas had just the right look for a wholesome,
corn-fed Iowa boy -- sort of that "Jack Armstrong, All-American
Boy" look.
Some victims
less important? -- K-Dizzy, 10:50:15 07/14/03 Mon
Gosh, all this ongoing talk- still!- about the "AR"
in Seeing Red. And some mention of how posters/ME have "trivialized"
this issue, including the forgiveness part....
But how come no one EVER talks about what happened to Drusilla?
I mean, if people insist on discussing- at length- the sexual
violence committed by an unsouled vampire on BtVS, how can anyone
overlook the most terrible example of this, possibly one of the
most horrifying scenes ever witnessed in the series? By this I
mean Becoming, Pt. 1, with unsouled Angel and Drusilla in the
church. Angel has already admitted that of all of his unsouled
acts, what he did to Drusilla "was the worst." So, we
know that after being stalked by unsouled Angel, innocent virginal
Dru fled to a convent, hoping to save herself in every interpretation
of the word- religiously, psychologically, physically- and is
about to take her vows when she is mercilessly violated. We see
a disheveled Drusilla sitting there collasped on the cold, hard
stone floor like a broken, tossed-away doll, hysterically mumbling
about "snakes in the woodshed," with her tear-stained
and distraught face turned up to the God who has forsaken her,
and see an unsouled Angel just staring at her with those calculating
eyes and the faintest trace of a leer.... And then Darla joins
in the depraved fray and laughing together, delighting in her
terror, they practically roll over onto Dru, who softly issues
a mad giggle from the sheer horror/evilness of what she's experiencing-
it's like the audience can literally SEE her sanity slipping from
her....
Where are the wails of outrage and posts of indignation over this
scene? (And not even factoring in the murder of her entire family
and siring.) I mean, it's an oft-viewed and "classic"
episode, right? One wonders how much more graphic it would have
been if it aired on UPN.... So how is it that "Seeing Red"
can be endlessly cited, but the (very strongly implied) sexual
assault of Drusilla is never even brought up, in all these dedicated
discussions about ARs and such? In fact, for those who absolutely
insist on labeling characters, why is it okay to have a recent
TV Guide cover featuring Buffy pictured right next to "her
attempted killer/Drusilla's rapist"? Clearly, if ME's gonna
play around with hot topics, they've got to expect that certain
characters will be equally roasted, eh? But somehow the actual/admitted
rapes (ARs) of unsouled Angel rarely get mentioned- and his viability
as a 'suitable' romantic partner never questioned- and only one
woman's experience is discussed. This can't be the real message
of "feminist" BtVS, can it? That some victims are less
important? That sexual assault is only worth talking about by
the writers and the fans when the title character is involved...??
[> Re: Some victims less
important? -- ZachsMind, 11:19:34 07/14/03 Mon
Are some victims less important? Yes. Dru was already turned when
we are introduced to her. Her story is told to us after the fact,
and the damage had already been done. However, Buffy's experience
was shown to us inside the confines of the series subjective "real
time" and not a flashback. So for most, the experience of
Buffy's near AR was more emotionally evocative, than Dru's even
more objectively formidable rape experience.
Furthermore, the show's named after Buffy. She IS the lead, so
what happens to her is naturally going to carry more weight than
a more peripheral supporting character - especially if that character
had been previously established as the villian.
Which further proves the injustice in our perception.
Take for example Anya in s.7's "Selfless." We learn
in flashbacks that she has done far worse than kill a handful
of frat boys. However, her causing the Bolshevik Revolution held
less weight having been told to us in flashback, than the experience
detailed to us in the 'real time' present. Especially since she'd
already known what it was like to be human, felt the guilt of
her act as she committed it, and did it anyway. It evoked more
emotion on many levels from the viewer, as opposed to her even
bloodier and more horrific past transgressions before she ever
even met up with the Scoobies.
[> [> Nice to see you
back -- KdS, 15:23:01 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> Good to be
seen. =) -nt -- ZachsMind, 06:42:12 07/15/03 Tue
no text
[> [> Re: Some victims
less important? -- Rina, 08:11:46 07/15/03 Tue
So are you saying that the attempted rape of Buffy was more important?
Or that viewers simply see it as more important than what happened
to Drusilla?
So, why aren't they up in arms over what Willow did to Tara in
"All the Way"? Or what she did to the Scoobies in "Tabula
Rasa"?
[> [> [> Re: Some
victims less important? -- ZachsMind, 09:31:03 07/15/03
Tue
"...are you saying that the attempted rape of Buffy was
more important? Or that viewers simply see it as more important
than what happened to Drusilla?"
This is why our judicial system is as complicated as it is. Why
twelve people are chosen for a jury instead of one. Why a man
is considered innocent until proven guilty, regardless of what
some people's emotions say. Why the victim is not given an opportunity
to decide the level of punishment. Why lynch mobs and the like
are considered illegal and unethical behavior.
There is inherent in the human psyche a very subjective tendency.
People who we like up until a point where they do something wrong,
emotionally we want to let them off the hook. Whereas someone
who's been a meanie to us in before has a lot of catching up to
do if they want to be a nice guy. Spike was all about that throughout
the series. That was his journey towards redemption. The attempted
rape of Buffy was an example of the runner stumbling along that
journey.
Objectively speaking, there's no comparison between what happened
to Buffy in that bathroom and what happened to Drusilla centuries
before. It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is not more
or less important than the other. Viewers naturally feel the weight
of Buffy's plight moreso than Dru's, for the reasons I explained
before. Had the show been named "Spike & Drusilla" her
story would be given more attention and would be presented differently,
naturally we'd feel more strongly for her. However, the show was
called "Buffy" so the cast & crew focused more on her
overall, naturally we the audience were looking from that perspective,
and Dru's plight got much less attention.
"...why aren't they up in arms over what Willow did to
Tara in "All the Way"? Or what she did to the Scoobies
in "Tabula Rasa"?"
I think one of the reasons why so many disliked season six was
not because it was done badly. On the contrary, it was done too
well.
The crew pushed the envelope and in so many ways broke from tradition
and bent the rules that had been established for six years. Buffy
did a couple naughty things when she was turned invivisible by
The Triad. When she went mental because of poisonous demon blood
and thought her friends were delusions she had to destroy? That's
good girl going bad again. Willow's struggle with black magic
was yet another example. Her selfish spellcasting on Tara in "All
The Way." Stealing the car and inadvertently breaking Dawn's
arm in "Wrecked." People were arguing that the writers
were showing how magic is evil all the sudden. That's not the
case at all. Not any more than the insinuation that homosexuality
was evil when Warren killed Tara. There was no connection. No
bearing. Sometimes these things just happen. When Dawn wanted
to bring her mother back to life in season five's "Forever"
Tara explained to her that magic wasn't to be used for such selfish
purposes because there were dire consequences. And then in "Villians"
we learn that not even Osiris, god of the dead, will toy with
"human death by human means." The guy just knows better,
and he's a god! However, despite her fight against using power
for selfish deeds up until then, Willow had come this far and
could not turn back.
At least until Xander's SELFLESS gesture set her straight.
Up until this point, the battle against evil was always outside
the circle of four. Giles, Xander, Willow and Buffy were inseperable.
After "The Yoko Factor" that was no longer the case.
There were cracks in their armor and The First had been trying
to break through that armor since "Restless."
This is what makes season six so controversial. This time, evil
was creeping into the circle because it was the only way it could
defeat them. And in season seven it realized it couldn't even
do that, so that's when it decided to pull all the stops. But
in season six the writers had already decided to break all the
rules. They checked their boundaries and found what their limitations
were. What they could get away with and still call it a Buffy
story. In season seven they went back to basics and drove the
entire thing home. The mantra "it's not about right or wrong
it's about power" permeates the whole of the final season,
and if you look back throughout the series that sentiment is echoed
in many ways.
No victim lacks importance. They are all important. Dru had no
champion to protect her, short of her god who was most decidedly
not doing house calls at the time. Objectively, directing and
writing aside, Dru's plight left her a victim, and the villian
we saw in the present was the consequence of Darla & Angel's cruelty
towards her when she was still alive. They drove her insane, and
they turned her into a tool of evil.
Again. Apples & oranges. What was going on between Buffy & Spike
in that bathroom was a role reversal. It wasn't really what it
appeared to be on the surface.
So, who was the victim there? Buffy? Buffy is no victim. She was
her own champion. She stopped him. She threw him off of her, cuz
she's a Slayer and she's got that kinda power. Spike was a victim
of his own desire, because he gave in to the power of his infatuation
for her. Just as Willow gave in to the power of guilt and remorse
and vengeance. Spike was weak. He gave up control. That's why
he went to get the soul after his realization, because he thought
it would give him power. Buffy was a champion, and had the power
to stop Spike, because he was too weak to stop himself.
The power is not just being a slayer. It's HAVING a choice. Choice
IS power. Think about THAT the next time you vote for or against
a political figure who is "Anti-Choice." =)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Some victims less important? -- Rina, 11:57:11 07/15/03
Tue
"That's why he went to get the soul after his realization,
because he thought it would give him power."
I gather this is merely your opinion and not a fact. Right?
[> Gotta agree here but...
-- curious, 11:23:09 07/14/03 Mon
*I* very much agree with you here. But I think the some members
of the audience - not ME need to ask these questions. Not only
was Drusilla a victim of a horrific crime - she was turned into
an insane monstor who victimized others for over a century. I
think ME does remind us of Angel's past. It is the audience that
places more emphasis on one act than the other.
Angel was in the same unsouled state at the time of that crime
as Spike was when he attempted to attack Buffy and was stopped.
What about locking the lawyers in the cellar with Dru and Darla.
Not saying Angel is "better" than Spike. Just saying
we have seen Angel do much worse things on screen.
[> [> oops! -- curious,
11:42:32 07/14/03 Mon
I meant:
Not saying Spike is "better" than Angel.
[> [> [> Re: oops!
-- Dochawk, 12:01:57 07/14/03 Mon
Both Angelus and Spike were vicious/sadistic vampires. But this
seems to be the nature of vampires (though the Master does claim
that Angelus was particularly vicious). Angelus had more years
to wreak his havoc and has been a central character for much longer
so we see more. Remember Spike told us he didn't want us to know
what he did to girls Dawn's age.
Why was the AR so horrifying? because it happened to us, we are
in Buffy's POV (well we are supposed to be). And because we are
supposed to empathize with the protagonist. Is it worse than what
Angelus did? or Anyanka? Only because its to "my family",
but not on a moral scale. You are much more likely to ask for
the death penalty on someone who killed your sister than for someone
who killed a drug dealer (its why we can let Willow off the hook
easier - she killed a murderer and a drug dealer/rapist). its
also why its morally repugnant to me for Spike to have a romantic
relationship with Buffy, but not Angel. But that's just me I suppose.
[> [> [> [> Feel
the opposite -- curious, 12:14:34 07/14/03 Mon
its also why its morally repugnant to me for Spike to have
a romantic relationship with Buffy, but not Angel. But that's
just me I suppose.
I feel the opposite - mostly because Angel was "old enough
to know better" when he initiated his relationship with an
underage Buffy - with a soul. And because Spike attacked Buffy
in the AR scene - and stopped. But I assume that Spike and Angel
both have committed horrific crimes as unsouled vamps and neither
should be "the long haul guy" for a vampire slayer.
I like Angel's character development on AtS but have trouble with
the fact that ME hasn't finally closed that chapter for either
character. I think B/S is more definitively over - and hope both
characters move on because it was an unhealthy relationship. But
I really think B/A was at least as unhealthy but for somewhat
different reasons.
YMMV
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Feel the opposite -- Dochawk, 12:26:37 07/14/03
Mon
Oh please don't confuse me with a B/A shipper - I'm not. I still
think Scott Hope was the best guy we ever saw Buffy with (of course
he's gay now). The age thing never bothered me, because Angel
didn't look his age, if he did it wouldn't have happened anyhow.
its what we are shown that makes the greatest impression. I've
wanted Buffy to move on since Tabula Rasa, hopefully she'll find
someone who treats her well so she can bake cookies for a long
time.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> ::pointing out that Buffy herself has been seen eating
raw cookie dough:: -- milkchocolatechip, 12:38:16 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Feel the opposite -- Rina-, 08:23:19 07/15/03
Tue
Or maybe Buffy can find someone she can treat well. Buffy wasn't
the only victim in Season 6, as some people seem to believe.
[> [> [> [> I agree
with your psychological point -- Sophist, 12:53:00 07/14/03
Mon
I think you've accurately described the psychology of the situation.
But it disturbs me for the same reason that the death penalty
generally does. It's why I find it so troubling that ME never
really addressed Willow's behavior in torturing and murdering
Warren.
[> Re: Some victims less
important? -- btvsk8, 13:23:47 07/14/03 Mon
With regards to suitability as romantic partners- Whether Buffy
and Spike get together in a relationship that is portrayed as
positive has greater importance than Drucilla and Angelus getting
it on because of their souled/unsouled status and the fact that
we are encouraged to identify with spike (in some ways) and with
Buffy to a large degree
[> Context and topicality
are not inconsequential -- Random, 14:26:16 07/14/03 Mon
We're not watching a show about Angelus' and Spike's behaviour
in the distant past. We see Angelus as a monster in Victorian
England, but the Angel we meet has paid a terrible price for Angelus'
crimes. Spike, on the other hand, is being witnessed commiting
his crimes in the topical context. If Angelus were still around
-- if he still stalked the city instead of being trapped by Angel's
soul -- he would evoke much stronger reaction. But we're watching
Angel-with-a-soul's story, not Angelus'. Even the S2 Angelus arc
was more about Buffy and Angel. Spike, on the other hand, was
still soulless, and thus we are forced to confront all his actions
in that light. It's not a question of trivializing Drusilla's
torment, but of how harshly we must deal with the souled Angel
for the acts of the unsouled Angelus. From what we saw, Angelus
was far more a monster than Spike could ever have aspired to be.
Had S2 Angelus and Buffy ended up as lovers, I rather think I
might have stopped watching in disgust unless ME did something
miraculous with the script.
With Spike, much of the interest has revolved around the S6 relationship,
not the S7 one. We can't fastforward to S7 and say that "Seeing
Red" was not as terrible as Angelus' treatment of Dru. It
wasn't, I believe that. But contentious questions about whether
we're being deliberately blind toward one in favor of the other
completely miss the point, IMO. We're examining the here and now.
We can acknowledge that Angelus' treatment of Dru was horrendous
without banging the current souled Angel over the head for it.
We cannot acknowledge that Spike's treatment of Buffy was horrendous
without examining it in the context of the then-current Spike.
When one talks about the B/S romantic relationship, one is generally
talking about S6...S7 was distinctly lacking in anything except
a platonic friendship, at least from what I saw. To condemn Spike's
crime without similarly condemning Angelus' one is not an act
of willful blindness. It is an act of acknowledging that the here-and-now
Spike (as of S6, which is really what we're talking about, since
we're only analysing an episode from then, not the character as
he ended up being)is the one we saw onscreen. The here-and-now
Angel isn't. If we continue to blame the S7 Spike -- which few
people, with a couple notable exceptions -- do, then we are guilty
of a hypocrisy unless we include Angel's victims.
More importantly, there is one other issue -- we're not talking
just about Angel and Spike. We're talking about their victims.
Dru is mad, and we must accept her relationship with Angelus.
What causes the firestorm about Buffy is the fact that she makes
rational (or irrational, as the case may be) decisions. Should
she end up with Spike? If one looks to S6 Spike to make that decision,
one has to look to unsouled Angelus when evaluating Seasons
1-3. Anything else would be hypocritical. I personally believe
that blaming a souled vamp for the crimes of his/her unsouled
counterpart misses several very large points.
~Random, the Clemdrew shipper
[> Because I don't see the
Angel vs. Angelus distinction with Spike -- Earl
Allison, 09:45:39 07/15/03 Tue
You are technically correct, Angelus is as bad as, if not worse,
than Spike pre-soul.
I guess that to me, the biggest difference is the way ME presented
Angel versus Angelus, and the (IMHO) startling LACK of real difference
between Spike pre- and post-soul.
Also, ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless,
remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either
to make them more morally complex, or to cater to favored characters
(depending on your views), and suddenly we were seeing vampires
like Harmony, who were quite a lot like their previous selves.
I can forgive Angel for Angelus because he is sorry. We see it
a lot of the time in what he says and does. He feels enough guilt
over what he did to Drusilla to offer her a chance to walk away
from Sunnydale (a mistake, I think it would have been more kind
to stake the monster she became).
Spike? Spike continued to wear the kill-trophy of a pre-soul victim,
showed (to me) almost no empathy for anyone other than Buffy or
those close to her, and seemed remarkably unconcerned over those
he had killed (aside from one or two episodes, which do not penance
make, IMHO). I've seen Angel act to save people he has no connection
to at all -- I've yet to really see it with Spike; it's all about
Buffy or those close to her (that I can recall).
Add to that the fact that, largely, Spike through S6 was still
the soulless vampire. Somehow, I am asked by ME to find Spike
better in S6 than he was in S2 -- and then we have the attempted
rape. Me tried to have its cake and eat it too, to claim that
Spike was different, somehow better even without the soul than
any other vampire, and yet he assaulted Buffy. I don't really
care what the circumstances were, I can find NO reason to excuse
Spike's actions then, or now.
Worse, ME continues to shoot itself in the foot by talking about
how and why Spike did what he did. Fury claims that Spike had
a little bit of soul, that he was somehow special among vampires
-- of course, if I REALLY believe that, his actions prior to falling
for Buffy become all the MORE horrible. Spike, who was different,
CHOSE to embrace the evil and murder of the past century or so.
Angelus is simply what he is through basic nature, but Spike (if
I am to accept the "special" argument) didn't, he made
a choice.
ME made a very clear distinction between Angel and Angelus, but
never the same thing with Spike. He continued to call himself
Spike, act a great deal like he did pre-soul, dress exactly as
he did (and the coat is a MAJOR issue to me), and largely call
attention to how much he was STILL like he was earlier.
I don't FORGIVE Angel, per se, but I can clearly see that he is
NOT Angelus. More, he generally (until this most recent season
of Angel) didn't claim that Angelus was totally different, but
that he was always inside, a part of the whole. Spike generally
didn't behave that way, and to be totally honest, if we the viewers
had never been told he had a soul -- would it be obvious to you?
It wouldn't to me -- although Buffy couldn't parrot "but
he has a soouuulll now" over and over, so S7 would only be
two episodes long :)
Maybe ME was trying to say that having a soul guarantees nothing,
that it doesn't change us all, but they picked a poor choice to
show it with, IMHO.
The weirdest part? I'm not much of an Angel fan. I just think
the two were handled differently, and for consistency, Angel was
handled better, IMHO.
Take it and run.
[> [> It can't be bargained
with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity or remorse
or fear.... -- Sophist, 10:48:58 07/15/03 Tue
ME's party line at that point was that vampires were soulless,
remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change things, either
to make them more morally complex
I think this progression is pretty much inevitable. Without it,
you get truly one dimensional characters like the original Terminator.
That was so limiting they couldn't even carry it through 2 movies
-- they had to give him something different in T2. For a long-running
TV show, it would be hard to sustain the sameness over many years.
What I find interesting is that ME approached this with small
steps. They gave Xander these characteristics for one episode
(The Pack). Then they gave them to Oz permanently, but only 3
days out of the month. Then we see that Whistler, a demon, can
act for the forces of good. And so on until vampires become more
complex.
Really, would you rather have a show in which the vamps all behaved
like Turok-han, or one in which there could be a Holden Webster?
I've gotta say, the latter seems much better to me.
[> [> [> Re: It can't
be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel
pity or remorse or fear. -- Earl
Allison, 11:16:46 07/15/03 Tue
Sophist,
A great statement, but it didn't really answer what I put forth.
Did ME have to go that route? Maybe, maybe not. Please don't assume
I wanted Turok-Han over Holden. I didn't change the rules mid-stream,
ME did. And mostly, those rules changes applied to main characters
or major supporting ones (which ties neatly into the thread about
certain deaths counting more than others).
The original question was, why is Spike more accountable than
Angel.
I only posted the reasons as I saw them, please don't hold me
accountable for ME's story choices and method of execution.
I stand by the rationale; Angel and Angelus had very distinct
differences, Spike, as I saw him, did not. Inevitable or not,
I didn't invent the (IMHO) glaring inconsistencies OR the "Spike
is special" argument, ME did. And since they decided not
to actually address anything of substance, it falls to fans to
theorize and put forth ideas.
Add to that the issue of many fans (and the writers) wanting to
give Spike credit for his actions between S4 and S6, and you should
also accept the negatives for the bad things he did as well, or
you assume that the slate is clean -- ENTIRELY. That means no
positives or negatives -- no one seems to put that forth as an
option, though.
I should have known better than to post on this topic, I really
should (and I don't bear you ill will at all, Sophist, I should
just avoid Spike entirely).
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> And
here I tried so hard to avoid mentioning S**** :) -- Sophist,
12:59:30 07/15/03 Tue
I was deliberately shifting the topic away from a certain vamp
to a related issue. I know we'll never agree about the merits
of bleaching one's hair.
Continuing on that theme:
And mostly, those rules changes applied to main characters
or major supporting ones
That's what I would expect. Weekly disposable villains can be
one-dimensional. Continuing characters cannot. Anneth's example
of Harmony is a good one; so is Dru. For lack of a better word,
they have personalities superimposed onto the face of a soulless
killer. Of course, once you give a character real personality,
you face exactly the situation you described. The difference between
us is, I don't regret that choice, I see it as enriching the show.
YMMV.
[> [> agree with Sophist;
also, -- Anneth, 11:04:03 07/15/03 Tue
Also, ME's party line at that point was that vampires were
soulless, remorseless killers. Then Joss/ME decided to change
things, either to make them more morally complex, or to cater
to favored characters (depending on your views), and suddenly
we were seeing vampires like Harmony, who were quite a lot like
their previous selves.
I don't think ME ever veered from the premise that vampires are
soulless, remorseless killers. The "more like previous selves"
change is not so much a sea-change from the original idea than
an evolution of it - Harmony is a soulless, remorseless killer
version of Harmony the Cordette. Just adds a little complexity
to the mix; without which, as Sophist mentioned, vampires would
become pretty dull adversaries.
[> [> Re: Because I don't
see the Angel vs. Angelus distinction with Spike -- Rina,
11:25:02 07/15/03 Tue
"I don't FORGIVE Angel, per se, but I can clearly see that
he is NOT Angelus."
I disagree. As far as I'm concerned, Angeleus is a part of Angel.
Spike had the good sense to finally realize that he has both light
and darkness within. As long as Angel continues to see the two
sides of his nature as separate entities, he will never be at
peace. He will never grow.
grrrrr argh!
Where did the 'writing into a corner post seeing red ' thread
go? -- WickedBuffy ... it is VERY active!, 11:01:34 07/14/03
Mon
I thought post were automatically archived by some machine thingy
according to activity?
[> Who can understand Voynak's
appetite? see thread above -- curious, 11:12:03 07/14/03
Mon
Maybe it is just as well to start a new thread. That one was getting
pretty ragged.
[> Re: grrrrr argh! Where
did the 'writing into a corner post seeing red ' thread go?
-- btvsk8, 13:14:59 07/14/03 Mon
Phew! was so relieved people responded to it in the first place.
I feared it would sit there all rejected. Only prob is, the original
question remains unanswered- what of our celibate heroine and
the message that sends? I was more concerned with that than spike's
soul issues. I liked the point that someone made about the cookie
speech. I guess that does excuse her lack of sex to a certain
extent...
[> [> Why does cookie
dough = celibate? -- Masq, 14:08:42 07/14/03 Mon
Who assumes Buffy meant she had to be celibate? The cookie dough
speech simply meant she wasn't going to be looking for a long-term
relationship until she was ready for one.
People have sex outside of long term relationships all the time.
I say more power to Buffy to not feel the need to throw herself
into relationships before she's ready and to satisfy her sexual
needs anyway she wants to.
[> [> [> Rock on,
Masq! Abso-friggin'-lootley! ;o) -- Rob, 14:17:30 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> And, finally...
-- KdS, 16:07:54 07/14/03 Mon
After Faith/Wood and Gunn/Gwen, (and also possibly Willow/Kennedy,
depending on long you see them lasting), sex outside lifelong
commitment is no longer an Official MEverse Bad Thing.
[> [> [> [> Gunn/Gwen
is the best example here -- Masq, 16:32:51 07/14/03 Mon
If you assume ME won't pursue that relationship next year.
I think they implied in "Chosen" that Faith and Wood
might pursue a relationship. And certainly I think, regardless
of how long it actually lasts, Willow and Kennedy perceive
themselves to be in a steady relationship. So I don't count W/K
sex as "sex outside of a long-term relationship".
But if by this you mean that characters no longer get automatically
punished for having sex outside of long-term relationships, this
is still a bit fuzzy in the Buffyverse, since most of the characters
we've seen in both BtVS and AtS have had sex in the context of
committed relationships, either real or perceived.
There are a few examples of sex outside of committed relationships.
Buffy and Parker come to mind. Xander/Faith is another example,
and I'd argue that both Buffy and Xander did get "punished"
for these sexual liasons in a sense. In those two cases, though,
Buffy and Xander got "punished" by their sexual partners
for being presumptuous after the even took place. Buffy percieved
herself as being on the cusp of such a relationship with Parker,
and he didn't. Xander assumed he had a connection with Faith that
Faith didn't.
[> [> [> [> Re:
And, finally... -- btvsk8, 17:29:23 07/14/03 Mon
Just to repeat myself- your arguments would work if buffy was
actually having sex despite not being ready to find "the
one". but she isn't. which is why the cookie dough speech
does not in fact excuse (the writers) in buffy's lack of a sex-life,
because, as you rightly point out she can still be cookie dough
and have sex. but she doesn't because her only prospective sexual
partner is Spike- attempted rapist. hence my original point that
the writers did not consider the long-term implications of Seeing
Red.
Hope that makes some kind of sense!
[> [> [> [> [>
For whatever it's worth, Buffy was also celibate in S1 and
S3. -- Sophist, 20:08:20 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Why does
cookie dough = celibate? -- btvsk8, 17:20:55 07/14/03 Mon
I didn't mean that her cookie dough speech was her declaring her
wish to be celibate. The fact of her not having sex for over a
year (probably not "satisfying her sexual needs") was
where I got that from. Not that there is anything wrong with not
having sex, its just that I feel that Joss, as a feminist would
have prefered to go against the tradition and have his heroine
in a healthy sexual relationship (cough-but couldn't because of
the "AR"-cough). What I do think is that her cookie
dough speech could be the solution to this issue... but i'm still
not convinced
[> [> [> [> Re:
Why does cookie dough = celibate? -- Yellow Bear, 22:30:10
07/14/03 Mon
The contention that the AR in 'Seeing Red'prevented ME from creating
a sexaul realtionship with Buffy & Spike in S7 is probably accurate
but the belief that they could not see this consquence coming
seems hollow. Clearly, the AR was going to be deeply traumatic
and any sexual relationship thereafter would be difficult. I find
it very hard to believe that ME did not go into the AR with eyes
wide open about what directions this would take the story in S7.
[> [> [> Maybe celibacy
will be part of her decision. -- WickedBuffy, 08:18:02
07/15/03 Tue
I thought it just meant Buffy wouldn't attempt anymore serious
relationships (like Riley, Angel, maybe Spike) until she was ready.
Which was a great piece of self-realization for Buffy.
If she was frigid or had some type of sexual problems, then I
would have gone with the cookie dough speech meaning celibacy.
But she appeared to be ok in that area.
Her problem was in relationships. But these posts about celibacy
and her frequency of sex is something I hadn't even considered.
I still feel it wasn't specifically about celibacy, it was more
about relationship, but now can see how celibacy might possibly
be part of how she helps bake her cookie dough to completeness.
Thanks for pointing out a whole different way to look at it.
Hanging From
a Star: 'Winter's Tale' and the Dream of a City (Book Melee)
-- Rob, 12:19:40 07/14/03 Mon
Mark Helprin's Winter's Tale is my very favorite book.
It has played a particularly significant role in my life, for,
while I had always adored reading (throughout my childhood, I
was best known as the kid on the playground during recess more
likely to be sitting on a bench, reading The Hobbit or
A Wrinkle in Time than throwing a dumb ball around with
my friends), Winter's Tale is the book that made me want
to be a writer. I first read it when I was 12 years old,
at an age I now admit was perhaps a bit too young to fully grasp
all of the nuances and complexities of this rich and cavernous
novel. Or perhaps not. What first truly swept me away into the
kaleidoscopic, mystifying world of the novel were the words. The
back cover of my edition quotes a book review from Newsday, proclaiming
the novel "a gifted writer's love affair with the language."
I could not describe it better myself. Here's one of my favorite
passages:
The upper Hudson was as different from New York and its expansive
baylands as China was different from Italy, and it would have
taken a Marco Polo to introduce one to the other. If the Hudson
were likened to a serpent, then the city was the head, in which
was found the senses, expressions, brain, and fangs. The upper
river was milder, stronger, the muscular neck and smoothly elongated
body. There was no rattle to this snake. Albany sometimes tried
to rattle, but failed to emit an audible sound.
I wish to God I could write that mellifluously. Not only does
the prose poetically flow in a manner extremely soothing to the
ear in meter and tone, but the metaphors are strong, carried through
in surprising ways, and are even quite funny. This book proves
that one does not need to simplify or dumb down one's writing
in order to be clever and engaging. This is what saves the book
from, what in the hands of a less gifted writer, might have sunken
into pretension. Helprin's sense of humor and heart save it. Upon
first reading the book, I was struck by just how big Helprin's
heart seems to be. There is a rich love of life, writing, New
York, and love in this book that one cannot counterfeit; there
is also a palpable sense of literal and metaphorical flight in
the prose. Reading the prologue and epilogue to the novel, the
reader feels as if he or she is literally descending (and later
ascending) on the back of the flying, white horse, Athansor, to
take in all that life has to offer before us.
One of the book's strongest points lies in its imagery. Even long
after all of the mechanics of the plot had escaped me, years after
reading it for the first time, many images of the novel left indelible
marks on me. For example, the scene of the young girl, standing
alone outside her father's hotel and watching a white horse attempting
to (and finally succeeding in) gliding over the water; the murderous,
villainous (and ironically named) Pearly Soames, whose love of
cutting throats and robbing banks is eclipsed only by his remarkable
love of color; the thick cloud wall drifting over the Hudson that
eclipses both time and memory; the stack of girlie magazines hidden
under a young boy's bed, which literally sear a hole in the floor
beneath them and fall onto the lap of the boy's unsuspecting father,
due to the boy's Tell-Tale Heart levels of guilt alone; the two
Pyramus and Thisbe-like lovers separated by a wall throughout
the long winter; the dying girl, lying in her small tent above
the city, communing with the stars; the winter village that exists
outside of all boundaries of time and forward movement, hard to
leave and even harder still to find; the bridge whose roadway
is made of nothing but pure light; and above all, the image of
a thief stumbling across the (nude) owner of the house he is robbing
and falling instantly in love with her, and even more significantly,
having this love be instantaneously reciprocal.
No mistake about it, this story is a fairy tale. Despite its ostensibly
realistic setting, the book courses with magic, from the flying
horse to Peter Lake's later abilities of telekinesis, and perhaps
most remarkable, the magic of first love. At the age of 12, and
even now, I find it just delightful how easily characters fall
and stay in love in this book, and most importantly, the fact
that it does not come across as coincidence or foolhardiness.
Whenever two people who are right for each other meet in this
book, it is like a meeting of two minds, two souls that were created
for each other; fate deemed that one day they would meet, and
in each case they finally do: Peter Lake and Beverly; Hardesty
and Virginia; Asbury and Christiana; (the most unlikely pairing
of) Craig Binky and Sarah Gamely. And why does this happen? The
answer, I believe lies in this passage:
Their throats tightened, and they shuddered the way one does
when one discovers or reconfirms higher and purposeful forces
brazenly and unconvincingly masquerading as coincidence.
By denying the existence of coincidence, Helprin strips bare the
fabric of the universe and reveals that, yes, everything is connected.
A dying child in an abandoned tenement can finally be saved nearly
a hundred years later; a shiny salver given to a young man by
his dying father can help bring about the demise and Phoenix-like
resurrection of an entire city; an out-of-place figure in a photograph
or painting from the 1900s can stumble down the street across
from you, having not aged a single day. Helprin's novel is Dickensian
in sprawl and characterization, but it convinces in its coincidences
where Dickens sometimes fails by completely disqualifying the
notion. For example, the revelation of Magpie's connection to
Estella in Great Expectations might have come across as
far less far-fetched had Dickens metanarratively commented on
coincidence in the novel as Helprin has done. By admitting and
reveling in the fact that these situations are unlikely at best,
Helprin allows for a more natural suspension of disbelief.
Winter's Tale is dense not only with imagery and otherworldly
forces but symbolism and allusion. I don't find it merely a coincidence
(sorry for the sledgehammer!) that Beverly, Peter Lake's one true
love and the woman who has inspired him throughout his life to
eventually reach the pinnacle of his existence of bringing a young
girl back from the dead, shares in common the first two letters
of the name of Dante's muse, Beatrice. This was nearly confirmed
for me when he sees her appear to him, glowing and white, in the
cellar, the night before the Short Tails drive Peter Lake into
the cloud wall, and I have no doubt as to whose hand was guiding
him on his tour through all the graves of the (under)world. I
also don't find his name, Peter Lake, merely coincidental, with
Biblical references to St. Peter not only in the name's association
with the lake, but in St. Peter's status as the maitre d' at the
gates of heaven. The circumstances of his childhood also, of course,
draw echoes to Moses, and his burgeoning abilities in the final
third of the novel call a certain Nazarene to mind. Unlike Jesus,
however, he is not a carpenter who creates new things out of assemblages
of wood, but is a mechanic, fixing, repairing, and patching up
problems that have already occurred in large, metallic structures.
His revelation that he has the ability to control other people's
motions telekinetically is as similarly methodical and logical
as his uncanny ability to break down a large piece of machinery
into its basest elements, then reassemble it again. A kindred
spirit, Hardesty, is the only other character with such a singular
ability: his seemingly miraculous one-shot win at a pool table
foreshadows and complements Peter Lake. Significantly, it is Hardesty's
daughter whom Peter Lake brings back to life, and it is Hardesty
who begins to bring Peter Lake closest to discovering his true
identity.
The tone of the book also suits its fairy-tale like setting. There
is a deliberate quaintness and out-of-time-ness to the prose that
cannot be explained merely by the fact that, having been written
in 1983 (when I was three years old), Helprin could not have foreseen
such everyday, prevalent parts of our modern early 21st century
society such as cell phones and the Internet. The New York City
that Helprin creates does not exist in any time but its own, to
the point that even the sections that I know are meant to occur
in the late 1990s seem to me, while reading, to have occurred
in the far past. Hardesty's cross-country journey seems as if
it would be more at home in the 1920s or 1930s, as does the descriptions
of The Sun and The Ghost (another Biblical allusion).
And yet, still, remarkably, Helprin nails New York City. He could
not have known what the end of the millennium would bring, and
so he creates an alternate New York City, that is in some ways
idealized (in what but an ideal world would Praeger de Pinto actually
win the Mayoral election for New York City?) and yet at the same
time harshly accurate. He describes the city as a monster that
could devour the unsuspecting person up whole, and he is right;
he also describes the city as a glowing superlative of justice
and beauty, and he is right. Who else but a lover and connoisseur
of New York City would be able to so accurately predict the complete
rebirth that could occur after a major, apocalyptic crisis? While
the city did not completely set ablaze on the eve of the millennium,
as Helprin predicts, the aftermath of the catastrophic events
of September 11th, 2001 is uncannily alive in Helprin's words:
'I'll tell you why, Governor,' Praeger returned, his words
rising all over the place. 'The city's not going to burn forever.
We're going to rebuild it. By summer, you'll see, it will become
something that you've never dreamed of. Do you know what else?
If this fire stops at night, we'll begin to rebuild on the next
morning. If it stops in the morning, we'll begin to rebuild in
the afternoon. When that happens, I want all the arsonists to
be dead, and I want anyone who even entertains the idea of lighting
a match to be able to remember what happened to the people who
started the fire.'
'I'll believe what you said about rebuilding,' the governor said,
'when I see it.'
'You'll see it. We're the quickest rebuilders in the world-we
don't talk as fast as we do for nothing. As much as the fire takes
from us, we'll take from it. We'll pretend it's a tourist.'
This passage is indescribably brilliant, not only in its hilarious
punchline, but in the absolute truth behind every statement. Uncannily,
every part of Helprin's passage occurred to the letter, including
the attitude regarding the "arsonists." The last line,
of course, is wrapped in good ol' New Yawk city resolve and ballsiness.
Prager admits that the city is a bastard, but a beautiful creation,
too.
On a brief aside, my two favorite sections of the book are the
entire first part, which reads like a self-contained novella,
with a heartbreaking love story that never fails to spill a few
tears from my eyes, and the tragicomic story of Hardesty's journey
to New York City, including his hilariously frustrating time spent
with the unfortunately named, mountain-climbing dwarf, Jesse Honey.
In the movie of the book that plays in my head, Jesse is played
by Danny DeVito. His calm assuredness that he is the smartest,
most athletic, and most capable man in the world, despite his
diminutive side, missing appendages, and complete inability to
bring any plan to successful completion all screaming that he
is not any of the above, is not only oddly inspiring but outrageously
comical. Yes, I imagine a Romancing the Stone-era DeVito in the
role.
In my mind, Winter's Tale is one of those all-encompassing
texts in which one can find everything: the meaning of life, 42,
and all that jazz. I see it as not one novel but a multitude of
novellas, short stories, and asides all commenting on the central
themes of justice, love, death and rebirth, swirling all the characters
in a non-linear kaleidoscopic whirlwind that takes them all spinning
in unforeseen directions and turns. I admire how Helprin was able
to capture New York City, as a living, breathing, moving character
better than in any novel I have ever read; I admire how he is
able to completely captivate me with his perfect command of the
English language and deeply clever turns-of-phrase; I love him
for crafting what is to me the perfect book.
Rob
[> Shameless self-preservation.
-- Rob, 12:52:18 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> Okay, one more
for now. Voynak is glaring at me. -- Rob, 13:19:37 07/14/03
Mon
[> [> [> 'And I am
all alone,/ There's nobody here beside me...' -- Rob, whose
gotta have friends ;o), 14:20:56 07/14/03 Mon
[> Lovely! -- ponygirl,
14:35:45 07/14/03 Mon
Ok, let me get this out of the way. I still haven't finished reading
the book. I will, I will, and I think Rob's essay helps. I wish
I'd had taken the approach of seeing the book a series of inter-connected
novellas from the start, I kept looking for the connections to
previous sections rather than letting them just come upon me.
I do think this is one of those books where you just have to surrender
to it. It had the quality of a dream, I just had to let myself
drift along with the narrative.
One problem I had was with the dialogue. Everyone seemed to be
speaking in a similar heightened fashion. It would have been nice
if someone like Pearly wasn't able to express himself like a poet
every time he spoke.
I also wonder if the character of Asbury was a shoutout to Herbert
Asbury, author of the Gangs of New York, whose influence could
certainly be felt in the earlier sections about Five Points and
Pearly's gang.
Hopefully I'll have more later, but great essay Rob!
[> [> Re: the dialogue
-- Rob, 14:57:12 07/14/03 Mon
"One problem I had was with the dialogue. Everyone seemed
to be speaking in a similar heightened fashion. It would have
been nice if someone like Pearly wasn't able to express himself
like a poet every time he spoke."
That's certainly a valid criticism, although I usually just surrender
myself to the whole world of the novel so end up not finding the
highly poetic dialogue distracting. From an interview Helprin
gave (and sorry, I don't think I'd have any way to find, because
I don't remember when or where I read it), he said that in this
book, he wanted to create a perfect world, and in his perfect
world, everyone, from the pettiest criminal to the millionaire,
would use the English language as an art form every time they
spoke, thus the emphasis on Mrs. Gamely's unique, labyrinthine
speech, and his humorous aside that the book reviewers are like
gods. He himself said he realized that this would never be, but
in his dream world, people would talk like this. And Winter's
Tale was certainly his dreamworld, so that explains that.
So, at the very least, this explains why everyone spoke like this.
Whether ya like it or not is of course a separate issue, but at
least it's good to know that the formalized dialogue was deliberate.
And yes, this was complete paraphrasing, and I have no way to
back it up!
And thank you for complimenting my essay. :o)
Rob
[> Building a preservation
bridge -- fresne, 15:06:17 07/14/03 Mon
Can't talk.
Working.
Routers. Switches. Bridges.
Bridges in space. Bridges in time. Slender massive columns and
graceful cabled lengths to tether floating lands together.
New York to San Francisco. Clouds to sky.
Thinking as I read of the family vignette in which my father,
a little boy at the time, and his parents drove to S.F. in their
model T to go cross the newly minted Golden Gate bridge. Camped
out in S.F. and then crossed when the bridge opened in the morning.
Of High Steel workers, walking the sky.
So, what parallels, if any with Shakespeare's Winter's Tale?
Exeunt fresne, pursued by a deadline.
[> [> And see that, fresne?
-- Rob, 09:20:32 07/17/03 Thu
I managed to slip in a Dante reference! Go, Inferno! ;o)
Rob
[> Let me tell you something,
Robert William... -- Sara, with her hands on her hips, 19:45:12
07/14/03 Mon
You are a writer.
I may feel a little lukewarm on the book, but I loved your
essay, it was both a lovely piece of writing, and an excellent
analysis. Even though I do not have your high regard for this
novel, there isn't anything that you've said that isn't spot on
right. I'm afraid that I'm just not into mellifluous writing -
I like a more direct and concise style. But although not my piece
of cake (which won't stop me from finishing it sometime this decade)
it is clearly as beautifully written as you say. What can I say,
as soon as someone describes a book as lyrical I'm out
of there!
Somehow the fantasy never quite drew me in, although the imagery
is really, very strong. Helprin certainly creates a New York that
is both true to the city that is and was, and yet is also otherworldly.
I did love the way Beverly's fevers were described where I could
feel the burning eyes and the hot skin. And the cold air had that
crispness to it that we feel in a really wonderful winter day.
I'm still in the second part, where Virginia has just reached
the city - so much more for me to go. I did love the description
of the oh-so harsh winter, and the precarious coziness of Mrs.
Gamely's home. The winter carnival period felt like what I always
want a winter to be, but never really is.
So, yes, this is a work of tremendous imagination, and beauty
- if you like that kind of thing...Actually, I think my biggest
problem, is that I don't find Peter Lake all that interesting,
and I did find the Baymen to be somewhat contrived - but I'm willing
to keep the jury out on the last thought. I wouldn't be surprised
if the Baymen subplot comes together for me in the end, but I'm
not convinced yet.
My final thoughts are, even if I don't love the book, it was worth
reading to be able to appreciate your essay!
- Sara, still turning the pages (when not in chat...)
[> [> Honestly, I am
*so* touched and greatly humbled, Sara. Thank you so much. :o)
-- Rob, 23:39:16 07/14/03 Mon
[> Lovely...I haven't read
this one for time and monetary reasons -- s'kat (doing her
part to preserve thread!), 22:20:34 07/14/03 Mon
but your wonderful review makes me want to.
I passed b/c I only had three weeks left when I got around to
actually looking it up at the bookstore, it's a large book and
17 dollars more than I can afford to spend at the moment. Budgets
are tough. ;-( Also I was reading The Lovely Bones - Winter's
Tale sounds like it would have been more uplifting and fun without
the MArySue character that was in the Lovely Bones - agreeing
with your assessment of LB poneygirl, hmmm beginning to prefer
my online book clubs recommendations to my offline ones - I get
to read East of Eden next - have until September 19th, luckily.
We'll see, incredibly slow reader...took me three months to read
Grapes of Wrath. Two weeks to read Lovely Bones. And four days
to make it through Screwtape. See slowww reader.)
Anyways... I loved this review. You write very well.
I have only one suggestion: if you haven't read it already?
Please read Jack Finney's Time and Again. It is much like
a Winter's Tale in it's exploration and love of New York City.
The difference is - instead of moving forward in time, you move
backward. You see the city of 1800s New York through the eyes
of an artist, complete with illustrations.
It is a detailed romance that I think you might appreciate.
sk (hoping to get the chance to read Winter's Tale someday soon)
[> [> If I've finished
it by the NY meet... -- Sara, still reading, 22:35:09 07/14/03
Mon
I'll lend it to you sk. And if I'm not done this meet, I'll have
it for you the next meet!
[> [> Yes! I LOVE Time
and Again! -- Rob, 23:37:55 07/14/03 Mon
You definitely know my taste in books. ;o)
This may not have been a great melee choice, just due to length
and size, but I'm glad that I got the chance to put that review
together, so I can maybe inspire some people to read it in the
future. And thanks for the nice things you said about my essay.
:o)
Rob
[> Preserving in amber...
-- Masq, 13:03:59 07/16/03 Wed
Or is that formaldehyde?
[> Re: Hanging From a Star:
'Winter's Tale' and the Dream of a City (Book Melee) -- e.,
13:15:57 07/16/03 Wed
oh.
oh, my.
this is a book i read once, the library lost; and then i found
again in the small town i'd moved to. oh, what a pleasure it is.
this is a modern fairy tale in every sense of the word. as turn-of-the-century
books go, i find it much more accurate in its brothers grimm attitude;
than books like 'city of light' that are written with such a distinctly
21st century voice.
and such a well-written review to boot. thank you for reminding
me of good things.
Joss interview
on Buffy season 6 in Cinefantastique (CFQ) magazine -- ECH,
13:57:06 07/14/03 Mon
"Of season six Whedon adds, ok Buffy has come back from the
dead and you have to deal with it in a big way... We are dealing
with someone who is practically suicidal depressed. It's weird
but people don't respond to that too much. Also, the metaphor
for sex has become very graphic and real. What were mystical demons
have become three nerds with guns. Very real death, very mundane.
The idea was to break down the mythic feeling of the show because
there is a moment at childhood when you no longer get that. Everything
isn't bigger then life; its actual size. Its real loss. At the
same time there is a darker side of power and Buffy's guilt about
her power and her feeling about coming back to the world. And,
her getting into a genuinely unhealthy relationship with Spike
that was all about dominance, control, and deep misogyny. How
lost did we get? Well, our villain turned out to be Willow."
I might type up what Joss had to say about season 7 later tonight
or tomorrow if I have any time.
[> Suffice to say I strongly
disagree with certain comments. -- Miss Edith, 14:53:37
07/14/03 Mon
B/S was about deep misogyny?!! Still what else could I expect
from a man who saw Innocence as his favourite episode, season
2 as the best season, and B/A as transcending all other stories
ever told.
Thanks for the transcript though :) I would definately be interested
in Joss's comments on season 7.
[> [> Take it back!
-- Alison, 15:02:54 07/14/03 Mon
Just kidding. I agree with the dislike of the comment- but fear
the responses this post may get.
[> [> I thought Innocence
was a marvelous episode -- Random, 15:19:24 07/14/03 Mon
and Season 2 is still my favorite. What's the problem with that?
Still not a B/A shipper, though. Never was.
[> [> [> Hear, hear!
(Don't agree on Season 2 being my favorite, but the rest...yup.)
-- Rob, 15:26:51 07/14/03 Mon
[> [> [> Season 2
lover unite! -- Masq, 21:04:00 07/14/03 Mon
My favorite then, now, and it looks like, forever.
Doesn't mean I'm stuck in the past. Just means I like the writing
and the story line from that season best of all.
[> [> [> [> You
know...it is in my opinion the most -- s'kat, 22:44:28
07/14/03 Mon
enjoyable next to possibly S5 in rewatching.
Let's see: Season 2 or Season 5?
While I love 5, I think S2 was better and more enjoyable over
all - the relationships, the characters, the villains, the overall
story arc - yep. S2 wins. I've changed my mind
regarding my old line-ups : 2,5,3,6,7,1
I certainly loved the arc in Season 2 the best and the villains
in S2 the best and the relationships and the Scooby Gang and Giles....okay
outside of maybe four or five episodes, there wasn't much not
to like and even those episodes I've found easier to re-watch
than some later ones.
And sorry, but no finale has beat Becoming I & II in my humble
opinion. Those two episodes were close to flawless.
So I guess you can sign me up in the group that likes Season 2
the best. At this point, it may be the one BTVS
DVD that I make a definite point of getting. It's certainly the
season I look most forward to when it comes around on syndicated
reruns. F/X is starting S2 again on Thurs.
Hurray! And I'm eagerly awaiting our board to get to it.
[> [> [> [> I'm
a season 2 lover-- I will unite! -- Q, 23:06:06 07/14/03
Mon
I consider my favorite season to be a three way tie between seasons
2,3, and 5.
Season 2 had the BIGGEST, and BEST episodes, but lacked consistency--
it had some bummers.
Season 3 was THE most consistent season-- I loved EVERY ep.
Seaon 5 was a great mix of BIG episodes and consistency. It didn't
have quite as many BIG episodes as 2, but close. It didn't have
*quite* the consistency of 3, but really close, so it had the
best of both worlds.
Then again, I agree with most all Joss says. Innocence is my favorite
episode, I think B/A transcends all other stories told(though
I'm not a "shipper"-- I don't think they should be together
no more than her and Spike should be), and the Spike as misogenist
(however it's spelled) riff, well, thats a gimme.
[> [> [> [> Count
me in. -- Sophist, 07:49:29 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> Buffy
Season 2: My all-time favorite season -- cjl, 07:50:33
07/15/03 Tue
Yes, you can debate the quality of a few of the standalones: Go
Fish, Bad Eggs, Some Assembly Required. But I'm not buying the
general opinion of Great Arc, Bad Standalones. We had two magnificent
Giles episodes, The Dark Age and Halloween; the ground-shifting
Lie to Me; Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered (only the funniest
episode in the universe); and the Oz-man's time to (moon)shine,
Phases.
And then, of course, we get the mythology episodes, which all
but burned through your TV screen: When She Was Bad, School Hard,
What's My Line, Surprise/Innocence, Passions, IOHEFY, and Becoming
I/II. No, we don't have Faith and the mayor, but we have Spike/Dru/Angelus;
the luminous Jenny Calendar; Jonathan at his "red shirt"-est
and Larry coming out of the closet. We hit the pinnacle and the
nadir of the B/A melodrama, and the Xander/Willow/Cordy/Oz quadrangle
defies all laws of geometry and common sense.
Season 3 may be more consistent, but S2 has the fire.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Buffy Season 2: My all-time favorite season -- Miss
Edith, 15:37:30 07/15/03 Tue
My order of favourite seasons would probably be:
Season 5
Season 3
Season 4
Season 2
Season 6
Season 7
Season 1
[> [> I was refering
to Joss saying misogyny characterised the B/S relationship
-- Miss Edith, 16:28:26 07/14/03 Mon
When saying I strongly disagreed. Now I liked Innocene a lot,
it was definately one of Joss's better episodes. And I enjoy season
2 and the high school years just fine. But Joss placing Innocence
above such classics as OMWF, Hush, and The Body? In his top ten
list he said Innocence was his best ever work, and he never topped
season 2. Now that I find ridiculous. I tired of all the people
saying Buffy was never the same after graduation, but apparently
Joss agreed with them. Now that I find disapointing as season
5 was the season I enjoyed the most.
As for misogyny maybe I have been seriously misunderstanding the
word all these years? Caleb hates all women, no question. Buffy
comments that Warren has a problem with strong women, I accept
that. But Spike hating all women, and that applying to Buffy?
I don't see it personally.
Maybe he meant season 6 and 7 featured misandry and misspelled
it *cough*
[> [> [> Sorry, I
seem to have misunderstoood... -- Random, 16:50:45 07/14/03
Mon
It sounded to me as though you were implying that someone who
considers Passion to be one of the best episodes in the series
(which I do) and considers S2 to be his/her favorite season (again,
I do) has suspect judgment. My mistake.
[> [> [> Re: I was
refering to Joss saying misogyny characterised the B/S relationship
-- Deb, 13:08:28 07/15/03 Tue
Every time I read an interview where one of the writers or Joss
or James Marsters comment on what makes a man "abusive"
I want to send them educational material so that if they insist
on telling women what to look for in a man -- Marsters' 'Treat
friends well. Treat your family well.' -- they will be giving
out the correct information. Obviously these must be nice guys
or big liars. I choose to believe nice guys.
The number characteristic a woman will say is what attracted her
to an abusive man is that he was "nice" to her, her
friends, her family. He was "charming." He was "considerate."
He was too good to be true.
With Spike, everything is up front. He doesn't have the "cool
facade" to keep his feelings hidden for five minutes, let
alone months or years. Why does everyone say "Shut up Spike"?
I do when a crass verbal remark that will get him punched in the
fact and flat on his back to start all over again. He is a Trickster
character, even in season 6 and Tricksters are neither good nor
evil. They are supposed to eat at our consciousness ...es(?) so
we examine our own feelings, ethics and our society's morals.
Spike's "selfless" ending was a perfect Trickster device.
The one thing Spike said to Buffy that was strictly verbal abusive
(right off the top of my head and in the last ep.) is his comeback
of "No you don,'t..." to her saying she loved him.
Well, now hold on. Spike was always telling Buffy how she felt
in season 6 and where she should be (in the dark). But we're not
talking about a woman hater here.
Most of his earlier deeds were that of the trickster villan trying
to kill the slayer (Hello Road Runner and Cyote (God, I can't
spell today.)
Oh, for those of you who might question how I have been since
I left with a personal problem (in more ways than one) oh so long
ago it feels. It's been hellishly productive. I have been places
I hope never to be again, but I brought a lot of really great
stuff back with me on the return trip. I will graduate Aug. 2
too!!
Oh. One bit of news. ABC will have a sitcom on Friday night called
"Back to Kansas" (which is really a suck ass name.)
It was created and written by the brother of a good friend of
mine and one of the characters is based upon her. She is hilarious
in real life and she is a huge Buffy/Angel fan.
So long.
[> [> [> [> Trickster?
Ethan Rayne maybe, Spike, no. He evolved out of that for sure.
-- Q, 14:32:34 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Buffy and Spike represented the twins.............. --
Deb, 15:24:53 07/15/03 Tue
Buffy and Spike represented the twins in the fourth level of Tricksterism,
where one dies for a greater good. -- Jung
[> [> [> [> Excellent
points about abusers -- curious, 14:50:48 07/16/03 Wed
The number one characteristic a woman will say is what attracted
her to an abusive man is that he was "nice" to her,
her friends, her family. He was "charming." He was "considerate."
He was too good to be true.
This is very true - at least in heterosexual relationships where
the man is the abuser. Abusers tend to fool people (and themselves)
into thinking they are great guys and the victim is crazy. They
quickly learn what to say to counselors in mandated abuser programs.
They are rarely the stereotypical quiet, broody, ax-murdery types
- those guys don't attract women. If anything, abusers are often
MORE charming than the average guy - that's how the cycle begins.
(Obviously, nice guys can be charming too.;-))
[> [> Re: 'Innocence'
Among the Best? -- Rina, 07:30:52 07/15/03 Tue
Joss Whedon really considered "Innocence" among the
best? I certainly didn't. In fact, I still can't see what the
big deal about that particular episode, along with Season 2, was
about.
[> [> [> It's okay,
you can dislike S2 just as certain posters can dislike S7
-- Random, 08:28:05 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re:
It's okay, you can dislike S2 just as certain posters can dislike
S7 -- Rina, 11:46:27 07/16/03 Wed
I have no problem with that. However, I don't dislike Season 2.
I simply found it disappointing.
[> [> [> His all time
best episode, in his top ten list. He never topped it apparently.
-- Miss Edith, 12:30:26 07/15/03 Tue
[> Hate to say this, but
couldn't disagree with Joss more, in some areas. -- Rob, 14:59:15
07/14/03 Mon
[> [> Another case of
ignoring the nerd behind the curtain and enjoying the show ;-)
-- s'kat, 19:18:28 07/14/03 Mon
After reading all the contradictory interviews and statements
these writers, actors, directors have said in commentaries and
reviews and interviews - I've finally come to the decision that
we should follow the age old advice - of James Joyce, MArk Twain
and Bill Faulkner, who were wise enough not to give in to the
somewhat self-indulgent desire to explain their works:
Don't ask the writer after he wrote the piece what he intended,
it changes day by day, I haven't a frigging clue.
But I can make something up to tell you if you want me too?
***********
So that I can continue to enjoy these shows and characters
and write half-way coherently on them - I have decided
to ignore the nerdy writers behind the curtain and watch the show.
Doesn't really matter what they have to say after it's out there
and they can't change it, anyway. What matters is how we the audience
views it. Their intent whatever the crap it was, can change when
it goes through the hundereds of hands and filters that television
as a medium goes through including the filter that is our eyes,
our experiences and our perceptions.
For instance: I see Wood as misogynistic.
Joss Whedon probably doesn't see Wood that way. Doesn't matter.
I do.
My view is as valid as his. I'm the viewer - my interpretation
counts.
I did not see Spike as misogynstic. Or at least no more so than
Angel or Giles or Xander or Wesely. Spike seems to adore women
and changed his whole being for one. Hardly the act of a misogynst.
He also always seemed to praise her.
I have not seen any evidence on the screen that changes that perception.
And no, I do not consider sexual assault as a purely misogynstic
crime since I don't consider it gender specific for the reasons
I've stated at length elsewhere from my own experience. Nor do
I see the AR scene as in any way misogynstic. If it had been,
Spike would have tried to kill her or continued with the crime,
like Warren did with KAtrina. My filter, my experience tells me
that Spike was not a misogynst, just Angel, Wood, Giles, Xander
and Wes are not misgynsts. The only way you can convince me otherwise
is if you say the exact same thing about those five characters
who have done equally brutal acts against women. ie. If Spike
is a misogynst? Than so are they.
My filter and experience tells me that Warren and Caleb were misogynsts
and were in different ways.
I'm positive someone else out there sees it differently due to
their own experience and filter. All I ask is they respect my
view. And don't insult my intelligence by telling me I'm wrong
based on a quote by a writer who has admitted he was only half-involved
with season 6 and 7
to begin with. If he was the sole author - I'd still question
whether his authorial intent is necessarily what translated to
screen, particularly when he seems to contradict himself and be
contradicted by his writing team in every other interview. Geeze,
if were to take all the interviews together and examine them -
we'd think they had written ten different versions of the same
series and televised them all.
Okay before I close would like to add a bit of personal experience
regarding authorial intent. Long ago in a creative writing course
I learned a valid lesson about the relationship between readers
and writers. I had written a short story - it was a story about
a boy away from home in art school writing his girl friend, feeling
lonely and a bit nuts. My readers interpreted the story in three
ways
the teacher as the story about a boy dying of cancer, one as the
story of a post-apocalypse survivor, and the third as the story
of a nutty boy writing his girlfriend. All three interpretations
were possible within the context of the story. I've read and analyzed
works of literature both from a reader and a writers perspective,
while the writer's perspective is informative, I take the objective
reader's over it. Why? The writer is too close and often doesn't
see all the angles. Also the writer's opinion of his own story
changes each time he interacts with the audience or reader.
The writer often forgets his original intent. And in most cases
may not have read or seen his story recently or perhaps sees it
too much. Writers in my view, while informative, are in some ways
far less reliable when it comes to interpretation of their art
than the objective viewer sitting at home seeing the work for
the first time on their tv screen.
So I'll repeat, ignore the little man with the scruffy beard muttering
behind the curtain, and his muchkin minions and watch the show.
Don't let the Wizard of OZ and his co-horts spoil OZ for you.
Your view and what you see is not affected by his insane mutterings
but by whatever is projected on the screen which you see through
your own individually unique filter.
Just my humble opinion.
sk
[> [> [> Re: Another
case of ignoring the nerd behind the curtain and enjoying the
show ;-) -- Dochawk, 20:57:24 07/14/03 Mon
We have vastly differing views of Spike, as we have discussed
many times, but I can't find evidence of Spike as misogynist anywhere
(manipulative and obsessive, but not misogynist). Course I don't
see Wood as being the slightest misogynist either (I think you
filter your views of Wood through the person whom he reminds you
of- but that's where all our worldview's come from).
Anyway, I was going to echo your comments about interpeting art
after its left the artists hands. once out our opinions are just
as valid as the artists and if he has to explain what he means
to us, he didn't do a very good job of showing it.
[> [> [> [> Agree
absolutely. Oh the bit about Wood? Ignore that. Should've been
deleted. -- s'kat, 22:34:46 07/14/03 Mon
Dang it! I thought I deleted the bit about Wood as a misogynst,
ugh!
You are absolutely right. Wood is NOT a misogynst. My old boss
was. Wood isn't. I realized that and thought I deleted it...damn
voy. Voy is just evil, I tell you.
Thank you for both your post, Doc and for pointing out my mistake.
I agree with you on all points!
Love this line, you state it even better than I do:
Anyway, I was going to echo your comments about interpeting
art after its left the artists hands. once out our opinions are
just as valid as the artists and if he has to explain what he
means to us, he didn't do a very good job of showing it.
[> [> [> [> [>
What if? -- Diana (you should know this is lunasea by now),
09:18:27 07/15/03 Tue
Anyway, I was going to echo your comments about interpeting
art after its left the artists hands. once out our opinions are
just as valid as the artists and if he has to explain what he
means to us, he didn't do a very good job of showing it.
What if he doesn't have to explain it to most of us? What if most
of us saw it pretty much how he explains it? What if he is just
explaining things for the minority, whom for whatever reason,
just didn't see what he meant?
Did he do a very good job then? What percentage constitutes a
failure? What percentage is a success?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: What if? -- Dochawk, 16:03:42 07/15/03 Tue
The larger point is that once art is published or shown, its interpetation
no longer belongs to the creator but to the audience. What Joss
has done is heard what he believes is alot of misinterpetation
(particularly about Spike in season 6, course I saw what he intended
except for his going for the soul) and tried to correct it. What
consitutes failure? I guess its like pornography, we know it when
we see it. And in this place we definitely get a skewed (mostly
much more sympathetic to characters other than Buffy)view, which
frequently differs from what Joss and the other writers stated
intentions are (course there is no consistancy either between
writers or with the same writer when interviewed on different
occaisions). on the other hand, Joss wanted to create something
that would be discussed in this depth, so perhaps he really succeeded?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: What if?Agree -- sdev, 18:57:31 07/15/03
Tue
"I guess its like pornography, we know it when we see it."
I was going to use that quote to express my feeling that Spike
was not a mysogynist. Sometimes it's just in the little hairs.
And yes I do think he really succeeded otherwise many of us wouldn't
still be talking about it. And that is much bigger than whether
we agree with post-production spin.
[> [> [> Re: Another
case of ignoring the nerd behind the curtain and enjoying the
show ;-) -- Dochawk, 21:53:13 07/14/03 Mon
We have vastly differing views of Spike, as we have discussed
many times, but I can't find evidence of Spike as misogynist anywhere
(manipulative and obsessive, but not misogynist). Course I don't
see Wood as being the slightest misogynist either (I think you
filter your views of Wood through the person whom he reminds you
of- but that's where all our worldview's come from).
Anyway, I was going to echo your comments about interpeting art
after its left the artists hands. once out our opinions are just
as valid as the artists and if he has to explain what he means
to us, he didn't do a very good job of showing it.
[> [> [> Thank you,
s'kat. Agreed. -- Rob, 07:05:54 07/15/03 Tue
The writer is too close and often doesn't see all the angles.
Also the writer's opinion of his own story changes each time he
interacts with the audience or reader. The writer often forgets
his original intent. And in most cases may not have read or seen
his story recently or perhaps sees it too much.
Great points, s'kat. That's exactly what I think is happening
here, particularly since Joss is speaking of the Buffy/Spike relationship
in this interview after having had his mind stuffed to
the brim with fans' opinions the last two years, which have colored
his perception. While from the surface alone, one might argue
signs of misogyny in Spike last season, it does not fit with the
character or the particular situation of the relationship; just
his undying affection for Dru and then Buffy alone, the entire
Love's Bitch scenario, indicates that he does not hate women.
In fact, his flaw may be in loving them too much. Spike did not
stop Buffy from dancing to death in OMWF and then kiss her passionately
because he hated her. And any control he tried to exert over her
last season had more to do with the darkness with which she was
flirting within herself, and which she was externalizing in their
relationship. And anyone who would argue that Buffy was allowing
herself to be dominated in the relationship, I would refer to
"Gone". Enough said. The important aspect of the Buffy/Spike
relationship IMO was not Spike's supposed hatred of women (which
I don't believe), but Buffy's, at the time, hatred of herself.
Rob
[> [> [> [> This
also reminds me of... -- Rob, 07:17:40 07/15/03 Tue
...William Golding. Despite the fact that Lord of the Flies
is one of the books most analyzed for its complex symbolism, he
claims that no symbolism was intended and he leaves it to the
readers to bring to the story what they wanted. Kind of a reverse
situation from Joss, but great example of your point, s'kat, about
authors sometimes either not "getting" their work the
same way readers do or at least having a different intention than
what readers finally take from it. If to this day high school
kids are still learning the symbolism of the white conch shell
and Piggy's broken glasses, despite the author's denial of a deeper
meaning, I think it's safe for us to at times disregard Joss'
interpretation of his creation. Because that's all it is...an
interpretation, not any more or less valid than any viewer's interpretation.
Once an author's work enters public domain, it's the public's.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re:
Thank you, s'kat. Agreed. -- Yellow Bear, 16:42:50 07/15/03
Tue
I guess I will just have to disagree with the majority on this
one. I remain deeply uncomfortable with this 'Kill The Author'
school of thought but the opinion seems to be prevailing here.
I am even more uncomfortable with the asseration of both Rob & S'kat
that Whedon does not even understand his own text, that he is
so pollutated by fans or so addled by time that he can no longer
see what his story is about.
So, I can assume that the majority of people in this thread will
no longer be looking to Whedon interviews?
[> [> [> [> [>
I think it's a mistake to try to identify a 'Board view'
-- Sophist, 17:14:54 07/15/03 Tue
The range of opinion on almost any topic is generally so broad,
with so many nuances, that we can only say "X" believes
this, "Y" does not.
We've had this discussion about authorial intent many times. If
I understand correctly, the views range from "it's controlling"
to "it's meaningless" (though the latter might be a
slight overstatement).
This issue is not unique to literary criticism either. It arises
every day in the legal profession: how should we interpret language
in a contract, a statute, or the Constitution?
In none of these situations does the law treat the stated
intent of the author, after the fact, as controlling.
Instead, the interpretation starts with the words used and how
they appear to a (fictitious) reasonable person. From there it
proceeds to other factors as necessary. If you're interested,
I can run through them; it actually may throw some light on this
topic.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Arguements here make me reevaluate my views daily (well
except about the blond-haired souled one) -- Dochawk, 20:58:48
07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Heh heh. BTW -- Sophist, 21:06:05 07/15/03
Tue
Thank you very much for the suggestion about the R2 player. My
parents are now half way into S5 and it's working perfectly. I
appreciate it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Me too! Even about the blond souled one believe
or not. ;-) -- s'kat, 21:53:08 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I think it's a mistake to try to identify a 'Board
view' -- Yellow Bear, 00:18:45 07/16/03 Wed
I agree that there is always a wide range of opinion on this board
but I was merely suggesting that the majority (in this thread,at
least) had come down on the side of unimportance of authorial
intent.
While the legal angle to this may be intriguing, I don't know
how much weight I would put on it personally as this is more an
artisitc interpretation than a legal one.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Authorial intent -- Sophist, 08:22:13 07/16/03
Wed
the majority (in this thread,at least) had come down on the
side of unimportance of authorial intent.
I think it's accurate to say that you appear to be giving more
weight to later statements by the author than most of the posters
in this thread. But I know from previous discussions that Rob,
S'k and Darby do consider the author's comments and don't think
them "unimportant". They just feel free to disagree
after considering all the factors.
While the legal angle to this may be intriguing, I don't know
how much weight I would put on it personally as this is more an
artisitc interpretation than a legal one.
The question of authorial intent arises in many areas: Biblical
exegesis, lit crit, art history, law. The legal system has given
more sustained, detailed examination to the problem than any of
the others, even Bible scholars. There definitely are similar
issues that arise in each genre. In fact, there are many books
discussing and comparing legal doctrines to other systems of textual
analysis; they each have something to teach the other.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Very well said. Agreed. -- s'kat, 12:43:25
07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Thank you. Ditto on the very well said.
-- Rob, Joss' Bitch ;o), 14:43:32 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Not at all..I disagree with Rob and s'kat to some extent
-- Random, 18:22:13 07/15/03 Tue
I still have enormous respect for the author's perspective. No
matter how much people might want to, they can't ignore it, and
dismissing is, from my perspective, inevitably a mistake. I feel
-- after too many years of literary studies -- that we've gone
too far in co-opting the Text for the reader and edging the Author
out. The author provides a framework, a very substantial, even
rigid, framework within which the interpretation by the audience
occurs. The reader as the Author is still valid...but not as valid
as current critical trends believe, IMHO. I've even started developing
my own lit crit theory, re-construction. Derrida would faint in
horror at some of my ideas.
~Random
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Okay a little clarification...incredibly ironic clarification
-- s'kat, 20:46:00 07/15/03 Tue
No matter how much people might want to, they can't ignore
it, and dismissing is, from my perspective, inevitably a mistake.
I didn't mean to dismiss the author's intent entirely - by that
I mean the intent we can find within the text. Nor do I mean to
suggest that the author should and can never comment on his/her
work. If you'll look back on the original posting thread you'll
notice something ironically contradictory.
My first post mentions Wood as a misogynist - I tried to delete
it - but voy grabbed it and posted it the original not the proofed
one. So when Doc commented on it. I quickly amended with - that
should have been deleted. However, if the reader didn't see my
correction - they would be left to intrepret what was in the original
post. My intent such as it were would get skewed by the mistake.
Now here I'm posting a further clarification - stating that while
I think we should pay more attention to what is on the screen
and less on the mutterings going on behind it, I don't mean to
say we should ignore it completely - or well,
I'd be telling you to do as I say and not as I do, wouldn't I?
Incredibly contradictory of me, don't you think?
How to explain this? I guess I'm cautioning against extremes and
hoping for a happy in between which I think,
Random is suggesting above in h/ir post.
Some posters seem to state that what Joss says is law and nothing
else should or can be interpreted, the audience's view does not
count. Which I obviously consider a bit
bizarre since if that's the case, why waste time visiting a posting
board to discuss it?? Also sort of takes the fun out of the whole
thing. Plus, I don't believe Joss himself would agree with that
view - sort of goes against everything he was ever taught. The
audience view is important, perhaps in some cases more so - since
without an audience or reader, you are pretty much talking to
an audience of one, yourself.
On the other hand, I'd caution against taking the opposite extreme
which is that the author's view does not count. It does of course.
And it is interesting to compare his view before creating his
work, during the creation, and after with the views of the audience
looking at it. Without going into too much detail - it's pretty
clear each view will be significantly different, since each person
involved is.
That said - sometimes it helps to look at work without knowing
the author's view or intent, like say the books of the Bible (do
we really know what the writers intended? and how would it change
our interpretation if we did, assuming of course you don't believe
God wrote it, which is an entirely seperate debate). There are
sooo many literary and television and movie works that have been
analyzed without the benefit of some auteur coming out and saying
- no, no, this is what I meant, you got it all wrong. Actually,
Oprah Winfrey recently made the decision to do books by dead authors
for her book club to avoid dealing to some extent with the author
of the book (she'd gotten burned by a couple apparently). Now,
I've had the experience of doing a book club with the author of
the work present and one without. Very interesting. I prefer the
without by the way.
Why? People don't seem to feel free to say what they really think
of the work with the author of a published work present. They
are intimidated by them. This is a published author, they think,
someone famous, who knows more than me, so his/her word must be
law. Not so. Actually in some cases,
the author doesn't even remember his/her original intent while
writing the book, they wrote five-ten years ago, they've changed
since that time, they aren't the same, what they were going through
at that time affected what they wrote, and they don't remember
all of it, when they read it now -- assuming they've re-read it
or maybe going by memory, their interpretation as actually much
more similar to their readers.
The same exact statement can be said of Joss Whedon. It's been
a year since he did Season 6, within that time period he has worked
and written Firefly scripts, wrote and written S7 Btvs, wrote
and written portions and story arcs for Angel S4 and S5, and read
numerous novels, seen Matrix Reloaded, had a baby - you cannot
tell me that all of that has not in some way shape or form changed
his views and him in some major way. I've heard having a child
is an incredibly life-changing experience all by itself. So the
Joss Whedon who talks about S6 now is in effect talking from a
distance from his original intent. He may not even really recall
it. He is no longer the same person. Add to that he is not truely
the "auteur" of it in the classic sense of the world
- if anything he is closer to what William Shakespear may have
been for his plays - part of the process. Except possibly more
so. Not every script was written by him, not every episode produced
by him, he put a great deal of it in the hands of co-executive
producers Fury and Noxon. Also we have actors, make-up artists,
crew members etc adding their two cents. So in a way, Joss Whedon's
view of his is really no different than ours, it holds no greater
weight than our view does.
So I guess what I'm saying is the viewer and the writer in this
case both have valid views - one is not more valid than the other,
they have equal weight in the analysis.
Oh -- sophist mentions legislative interpretation - this is taking
me back 8 years, but, if I remember correctly,
when we interpreted statutes or laws - we did it using three methods:
1. Supreme Court and Appellate Court rulings involving cases that
dealt with the statute - this went to how a "reasonable"
person may see the law.
2. Original court cases and how the law worked in practice (also
to how "reasonable" person would view it)
3. Legislative intent - we would review the debates in the legislature
at the time the law was to be passed, you can find this in the
Statutes - they have a section that includes everything the legislature
said about it at the time it was written into law.
Note we do not go back to the legislature and ask what they intended
a year, six months, five days after the fact. What we do is look
at what they intended when and at the moment it was passed. This
is important. Because as I cited above,
intent can change over time. What the lawyer or interpretor of
a law wants is the most accurate interpretation of the original
intent of the people who wrote and passed the statute/law - to
get this, outside of traveling backwards in time, you must look
at the published debates that were transcribed at the time. Anything
taken after that? Has the same weight as you or I reading it.
The same is true somewhat of literary criticism. Because, outside
of literally taking a trip back in time and inserting ourselves
in Joss Whedon or James Joyce or Mark Twain's brains...we have
no idea and never will what their original intent was nor do I
believe they do.
But that does not mean we shouldn't read interviews or listen
to commentaries. Just that we shouldn't place any more weight
on the opinions expressed in these than we may place on each others.
Hope that made some sense. Again this is just my view. YMMV.
(BTw - does YMMV - mean you may have your own view?)
sk
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Arrgh typos galore...hope it doesn't hurt what
I intended to convey -- s'kat (continuing to appreciate the
irony), 20:50:33 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. Which means pretty
much what you suggested. -- Sophist, 21:11:02 07/15/03
Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. Which means
pretty much what you suggested. -- Sophist, 21:17:57 07/15/03
Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> heheh...irony, thy name is ATPo poster... --
Random, 00:12:13 07/16/03 Wed
I wasn't actually replying to you specifically, but to Yellow
Bear. I should have just said, "I have my own thoughts on
the matter and, while I listen to s'kat and Rob, I make up my
own mind." Woulda saved you a lot of typing;-}. In any event,
I personally go a little further in the weight I give authorial
voice, but that's, in a large part, a reaction against 8 years
of reading critical theory in English Lit and growing roundly
sick of modern LitCrit. If I had suffered through another
supercilious first year grad student tell me that the Author was
meaningless and that I just didn't understand critical
theory.... (The latter inevitably awakened the bully in me and
I would bring to bear all the learning advantage I had over the
student to demonstrate that not only did I understand, but I could
literally take the first year grad student to school on the issue,
heheh.) In any event, I largely agree that a happy medium is best.
I just happen to, like you, have my own particular ratios and
assign my own particular values. I'm just bitter, I suppose.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Agreed, also, actually. -- Rob, 06:42:28
07/16/03 Wed
If I sounded completely down on the importance of the author's
intent, it's just because lately, Joss has been kind of irritating
me in his interviews. Although I love the show itself, a great
deal of time, I don't think it seems like his recent interviews
about his intent on the show actually reflect what we saw on the
screen. Ever since he said in an interview that Joyce was The
First, I've frankly been a bit annoyed with him, because...uh,
if that's so...didn't he ever say it on the air? Just about any
non-Internet fan (or fan who doesn't read the Buffy magazine)
wouldn't know that; it's not fair that there is plot information
that we never learned on the air and he filled in later. Obviously,
that's a completely separate issue, but more so, I think Joss
lately has been caving in to audience opinion rather than stand
his ground, perhaps because he worries about ratings for Angel
next season. Last season, in interviews, he never used the word
"miosgyny," and I think where he's using it here, he's
either not using it correctly or it is being taken out of proportion.
If it's the latter, obviously, it's not his fault. But sometimes
I feel like the last two seasons, he's been trying too hard to
overcompensate for the problems the audience may have had with
the text (even though many of us--um, or at least me heheh--pretty
much liked all of it), by apologizing for certain aspects. In
the season 4 commentaries/interviews, Joss speaks a great deal
about where the season failed. I don't agree with him there at
all, because I don't think the season failed at all. It's still
one of my favorites. Don't worry, I'm not turning on Joss or anything.
But I just feel that lately he's been making the situation worse
in Internet fandom, and should maybe just quit while he's ahead.
I just find it very telling that I agree with all of Joss' Season
6 interviews while the season was airing, but tend to not agree
with his in-retrospect ones. I trust Joss' earlier interviews,
which I think more accurately reflect his feelings as he was
writing the story rather than his later ones.
I am very hypocritical on this whole topic, though, because whether
I think the author should be trusted or not usually depends on
the author, for me. When I read Neil Gaiman's "Sandman"
interviews, for example, I always agree with him and argue against
any criticisms some have had about supposed failings in the book.
And why? Because they didn't understand what he was trying to
say! I know, hypocritical.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Okay a little clarification...incredibly ironic
clarification -- Yellow Bear, 00:47:17 07/16/03 Wed
I hope that when you say some posters see Joss-words-as-law that
you were not referring to me. The last thing I would want to suggest
is that we should all listen to Joss and then keep our mouths
shut (I think I referred to this as being Jasmined in an early
post). I merely mean to suggest that authorial intent has meaning
and more meaning for me than you clearly find in it. I have to
take the creators words at some value over the guy/gal in his
undies at 8 on Tuesday with hands covered in Cheetos dust (or
snack food of choice). Clearly, the audience interpretation is
a key part of any art form particularly a popular one.
Again, I am uncomfortable (used that term way too much today)
with the asseration that Joss cannot tell us what his intent was
at the time of creation, that somehow the passage of time has
obsecured that memory for him. Recently watched the 'Restless'
commentary and he seems to do an excellent job of covering intent/meaning
he wished to express at that time, and the commentary seems to
have been recored at least a year or more after filming.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> The difference, though, with the example
you gave... -- Rob, 06:46:35 07/16/03 Wed
Recently watched the 'Restless' commentary and he seems to
do an excellent job of covering intent/meaning he wished to express
at that time, and the commentary seems to have been recored at
least a year or more after filming.
...is that in this case, Joss does not have to defend anything.
Restless is regarded a classic by most fans of the show,
and he wrote it with very specific, purposeful symbolism. That's
a different case than when he's discussing a season like 6 or
7, on the whole, which garned such controversy and has so many
detractors. In those cases, there are differences between his
pre- mid- and post-season interviews.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: The difference, though, with the
example you gave... -- Yellow Bear, 08:41:45 07/16/03 Wed
Fair point. Although I will say that I don't view Joss's comments
as being in defense of S6/S7 (at least in the specific interview
we are discussing) but merely trying to state intent & discuss
(S6 specifically) some audience disatisfaction.
One thing I found intriguing about 'Restless' commentary is that
Whedon mentions a couple times how he knew a portion of the audience
wouldn't understand it or want it, which is kinda how I feel about
S6.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The difference, though, with
the example you gave... -- Rob, 08:54:12 07/16/03 Wed
Fair point. Although I will say that I don't view Joss's comments
as being in defense of S6/S7 (at least in the specific interview
we are discussing) but merely trying to state intent & discuss
(S6 specifically) some audience disatisfaction.
Also a fair point! I think my problem is that I find his statements
now to be almost overly-apologetic for something I don't think
he needs to apologize for. Hey, I think you may have just helped
me nail my problem with his recent interviews. In his tone, I
sometimes feel like he's saying, because a large, vocal majority
has these feelings about Season 6, for example, he has to modify
his own feelings about the season (I'm among those who usually
agree with him in the first place, but not so much in his later,
in-retrospect evaluation of the seasons). I think the use of the
word "misogyny" is also overly-apologetic, in order
to placate those who would label Spike as that for the AR alone,
without taking the action into the context of his character or
the plot. It may not be his intention, but in his words, I feel
like he takes audience criticism to heart too much. He seems IMO
to be always either overly-defensive or overly-apologetic about
controversial plot points.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed. That was my problem
with it as well. -- s'kat (who also oddly enough liked S6),
11:50:12 07/16/03 Wed
I have troubles with the author getting defensive about the work.
Yet, being human, I guess it is something we all inevitably feel
a need to do.
Just look at how we respond to those who respond to our posts?
;-)
So I give less weight to the defensive/almost apologetic interviews
than the commentaries. I find the commentaries very informative.
Restless, The Body, Fool for Love, but
the individual interviews? Less so. Maybe because the
interview is filtered through a third party - the interviewer/writer
of the interview, while the commentary comes to us far more directly.
sk
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Restless is a good example to
use -- ponygirl, 12:17:27 07/16/03 Wed
Joss' Restless commentary also demonstrates how intent can change
after the fact. Joss mentions the interpretation of Riley and
Adam's naming scene as a masculine counterpoint to the Willow/Tara
exchange about letting Miss Kitty find her own name. This idea
was put forth by viewers and Joss claimed that it was not his
intention when writing it, but he accepts it as being valid.
Poor s6! I don't like the idea that it has to be apologized for
or have its meanings explained in more acceptable terms. I loved
the season and think it more than holds its own - in my books
it gives s2 a run for its money. Maybe it's time to saddle up
the old s6 Defenders Brigade and charge the barricades of accepted
opinion! Tally-ho!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Woo hoo! The Season 6 Anti-Defamation
League rides again! :o) -- Rob, the President, 12:40:04
07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Anti-Six-ites beware!
We will crush you with our mighty angst! -- ponygirl, Treasurer
(we have money?), 12:46:59 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> can't be the president
if you don't have a preference :-) -- Diana (and the 32rd
Lunatic Division), 14:22:48 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heh-heh. The
reason I have the title is... -- Rob, 14:37:52 07/16/03
Wed
...during the sixth season, I was one of the first to start the
rallying cry for all those woeful, lonely fans here who felt like
the anti-Season-Six-ers were too powerful, to band together and
cry out: "Season Six is the best!" ;o)
Hey, I posted a glowing review of "Wrecked" AND
DMP the day after each aired, so that was enough to secure my
position. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm staging
a coup -- Diana, 15:13:24 07/16/03 Wed
As President of the "Marti is the Goddess of all things Twisted
and if You Want to Say Anything Negative about Her You Better
be Prepared to Feel the Points of my Stilettoes and the Sting
of My Whip" Club, I challenge you to lead the charge.
Be forewarned, my defense of Season 6 is 98 pages long :-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd
love to read it, partner! ;o) -- Rob, fellow Season 6 and
Marti devotee, 19:13:39 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
It's in the archives under 'Dark Night' -- Diana,
09:54:41 07/17/03 Thu
or I can email it to anyone who wants. just email me.
It is pretty harsh on Spuffy, be forewarned.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Love
to Read It (as a fellow S6 lover) -- Yellow Bear, 01:04:04
07/17/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Getting my pro Season 6
pony ready to ride with you! -- jane, 13:59:54 07/16/03
Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: The difference, though, with the
example you gave... -- Yellow Bear, 08:51:56 07/16/03 Wed
I wanted to add that I do see some of the writer's interviews
taking on a defensive turn as of late (since mid-season 6, actually),
which irks me as I don't think they have anything to be defensive
about. They've done so much great work that if they slip, they
slip and I don't need them to defend themselves to me.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Completely agreed. -- Rob,
08:55:22 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re:
Beautifully said -- sdev, 19:00:13 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Thanks. :) -- Rob, 08:56:25 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> [> Re: Another
case of ignoring the nerd behind the curtain and enjoying the
show ;-) -- Rina, 07:34:56 07/15/03 Tue
S'kat,
Wiser words have never been spoken. It's too bad that most fans,
and even the show's writers do not understand such a viewpoint.
[> [> Uhm? What happened
to my post? -- s'kat, 15:06:11 07/15/03 Tue
I leave the board for six hours, come back and notice my lengthy
post on ignoring the nerd behind the curtain has
disappeared, along with Dochawk's and my response to him.
Has voy gone wacky again? Has my computer blocked it out?
Can't imagine anyone deleting it - it was tamer than most things
I've written lately ;-)
[> [> [> Ah! IT's
back, thank you muchly!! -- sk, 17:30:54 07/15/03 Tue
[> Voice Of Dissent
-- Yellow Bear, 16:37:10 07/14/03 Mon
Loved the quote. Summed up everythig I saw in (and loved about)
S6, and also the reason a portion of the audience rejected it.
Don't know if I see Spike as particularly misogynistic though
but he's narcissistic & morally bankrupt so why split hairs.
[> I totally agree with
Joss, B/S was all about deep deep misogyny. -- VGR fan, 18:05:25
07/14/03 Mon
Spike tried to freeking rape her in her own bathroom as an act
of hatred to get back at the bitch by hurting her for breaking
up with him. I can't even imagine a more horrible act of misogyny,
hell it would have been much better if he had simply tried to
kill her. The AR stands as the ultimate example of real evil and
misogyny in the Buffyverse, I can't even think of a more horrible
example. And, soon thereafter Spike was yelling about and blaming
"the bitch" for it. And, I also agree with Joss that
he was all about trying to dominate and control her, even trying
to keep her from going to the police in DT was all about him trying
to keep her for himself and not letting her do the right thing.
[> [> I don't think that
was his reason. -- abt, 00:31:25 07/15/03 Tue
VGR fan, you wrote:- "Spike tried to freeking rape her
in her own bathroom as an act of hatred to get back at the bitch
by hurting her for breaking up with him."
I don't think he tried to rape her as an act of hatred or revenge.
His words weren't 'I'm going to hurt you/show you who's in control
here/show you that I am more powerful'.
Spike did not enter that bathroom with intent to hurt Buffy, he
went in there to apologise.
His words indicate that he tried to force her into sex in the
misguided belief that if they were physically close the emotional
connection would happen.
Yes, this is still horrible, yes forcing someone into sex is rape,
yes this is still Spike trying to force Buffy, and make her do
something she doesn't want to.
But IMO it was not done as a deliberate attempt to cause pain
or get revenge.
[> [> [> I think VGR
was being sarcastic... -- KdS, 04:22:57 07/15/03 Tue
[> Spike IS a misogynist!
-- Q, 19:34:35 07/14/03 Mon
I have argued with people on this board about this for quite some
time, and still, people try to get WAY too literal and split WAY
too many hairs when it comes to the word.
Misogeny is the hatred of women.
Spike hates Women.
People will point out his love for specific women like Drusilla,
Dawn, or Buffy, but to me it adds up to a racist pointing out
that "a lot of my best friends are black". Or somebody
who discriminates against gays saying "some of my best friends
are gay". Just because they don't squirm with displeasure
at the mere thought of a gay or black does not mean they are not
a biggot. If they support legislation that holds back the minority
group, or if they show even SUBTLE signs of wanting to hold that
group back, they are a biggot.
Spike may not have had big plans to wipe out the female gender
from the face of the earth, but he DEFINATELY showed many signs
of bald faced misogeny.
Threatening to "have" Willow, threatening to torture
Drusilla, trying his damndest to brutally rape Buffy are all signs
of this misogeny. The effort to rape Buffy is particularly important
because of the way it was used as an OBVIOUS symbol of misogeny
during a WHOLE SEASON about misogeny.
Even subtler signs of his misogeny are ever present. The way he
feels threatened, just like Caleb and Warren, by powerful women
is misoginistic. He is fine with Buffy when she is miserable and
depressed-- but whenever she tries to re-claim her power, he gets
extremely volatile. He did the same with Drusilla.
The way Spike tried to keep Buffy "in the dark" with
him, like the conversation on the bronze balcony showed, was evidence
of him holding the strong woman back. It was OBVIOUS, surface
level, misogeny.
Whenever Buffy's power trumped his own, he would refer to her
in gender specific derogatory terms such as "Bitch".
After his failed rape, he said specifically "The Bitch is
going to get what she deserves."
Spikes treatment of Harmony as a sex object not to be taken seriously
for any other reason is some of the most severe examples of misogeny
we have seen on the show.
I understand that some people have a different opinion, and that
is fine. I can understand when people have gotten so VERY hot
at me for stating this opinion, too. It is obvious I possess nowhere
near the intellect of many on this board, and I will readily admit
that. That is another reason why I am so confused at the blindness
people have over this issue. When someone as shallow as me sees
the OBVIOUS subtext, I can't believe the higher level thinkers
are missing it.
For half a second, I started questioning myself, and wondering,
even though I couldn't see it for the life of me, if I could POSSIBLY
be wrong about this subject. I mean, so many people, so much smarter
than me, were disagreeing. But, when the artist himself explains
what was meant by the art, and it happens to jive EXACTLY with
what I have been saying for over a year, I feel justified that
I have not been wrong. It only leads me to feel more confident
in my opinion (I admit it is just MY opinion) that people on this
board KNOW in their hearts the truth, they see it with all their
amazing intellect, but they REFUSE to accept it. They have LONG
AGO put on the blinders when it comes to Spike, and refuse to
follow the obvious symbolic possibiliies of Spikes misogeny.
I could understand when people argued with me. I am shocked that
they would say that Joss doesn't know what he is talking about.
HE ONLY CREATED THE SHOW AND OWNS ALL CREATIVE SAY ON THE INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY OF SAID SHOW!!! That's not too much!
Now I know that people will say that what the artist says isn't
as important as the interpretation created in the viewer of the
art-form. That the impression created in the observer is the most
important aspect of art-- and what the artist actally intended
is just another nuanced aspect. I can understand the point of
view, and respect it-- even agreeing to a large extent. If, however,
you follow that, I don't think you can TOTALLY throw out the artists
intent. Even if it is not what you get out of a work of art--
it is still a very valued opinion on the art-- and I think a VERY
valuable argument could be made that it is THE most valued opinion
on the art.
So if anybody agrees with that last paragraph, maybe I will be
less attacked now by the Spike apologists who seem to have fits
whenever I state my opinion that Spike, along with Ted, Caleb,
and Warren is the HEIGHTH of misoginistic symbolism. We'll see.
Thank You.
[> [> What is Misogeny?
-- sdev, 22:01:11 07/14/03 Mon
"Misogeny is the hatred of women."
No. I think it may be the hatred of offspring which may apply
to Spike because as a vampire he can not have children. I couldn't
help it with the volatility lately.
[> [> Re: Spike IS a
misogynist! -- Yellow Bear, 22:21:19 07/14/03 Mon
Now, that's an opinion. :)
First, I am an auteurist by nature so I agree that authorial intent
is important. I certainly view it as more important than the majority
of people on this board . The belief that a fan opinion, no matter
how ill-informed or unsubstantiated, is the equivaeant of authorial
intent strikes me as the height of arrogance.
I stated that I did not find Spike to be particulary misogynistic
but that's a bit of a mistatement on my part. Misogny is certainly
a central part of Spike's make-up but the character's strange
sense of victorian romanticism has offset his misogny for me.
I certainly can't see him as straightly analogous to Caleb. However,
Warren is an analogous figure to him as stated specifically in
Dead Things & Seeing Red. Warren & Spike are pushed forward by
there seething 'angry nerd energy' (to quote the great Emily Nussbaum)
and the both have severe problems with letting go of the women
in their lives. Perhaps, I simply don't want to see Spike as misogynistic
because I enjoy the character so much.
Finaly, I would like to point out that with a show this complex
and nunanced that any quote from the author is not going to include
all the variations of theme & character that make up a plotline
so expecting Whedon's brief comments to cover the entire gamut
of thought that went into a season is rather ridiculous but we
all seem to do it everytime he says something.
[> [> [> I hate not
having spell check -- Yellow bear, 22:25:21 07/14/03 Mon
How funny to write a whole thing about misogyny and to mess up
the spelling two times.
[> [> [> [> not
you, Q -- sdev, 22:30:58 07/14/03 Mon
I was just kidding!
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: not you, Q -- Yellow Bear, 22:58:50 07/14/03 Mon
OK, I will plead stupidity and say I don't get it.
[> [> Thin line between
love and misogyny -- Valheru, 23:20:46 07/14/03 Mon
While I think Spike indeed has some woman issues, I don't think
misogyny is one of them, at least not in the way that you describe
it. He certainly doesn't hate women as a gender. In fact, of the
three people toward whom Spike has shown the deepest hatred, two
of them are men (Angel and Xander).
Has Spike ever tried to hurt a woman out of hate, either emotionally
or physically, simply because they were a woman? Most of his attacks
are motivated by sexual desire, not hatred. And the times that
aren't sexual? He goes after Slayers because they pose a physical
challenge, which he would do if all Slayers were men. He condescends
Harmony because she's Harmony (he's actually the first male to
do so; previously, all of Harmony's attacks were from females).
And while he speaks misogynistically toward Buffy, he does so
to hurt Buffy specifically, not to hurt another woman.
Just because I hate a lot of black people doesn't mean I'm a bigot.
I could have many reasons to hate them that have absolutely nothing
to do with their race.
Besides, misogyny isn't selective. Misogynists hate ALL women,
in the same way, out of knee-jerk prejudice. A misogynist wouldn't
be able to take care of Dawn, talk soaps with Joyce, ruminate
the old days with Anya, dote on Drusilla, or seek out a soul for
Buffy. His prejudice never would have allowed it.
[> [> [> Agreed very
well said. -- s'kat, 09:25:23 07/15/03 Tue
Only one little nit-pick - Spike wasn't the first man to attack
Harmony, exactly. I think Xander did it more than once back in
high school when she was human. The BBB
spell and his snide remarks to her. Again, they had more to do
with Harmony than anything else and were, I'd say largely in self-defense.
;-)
Outside of that agree with every word. I wrote a similar post
below, but I think you said it far more succintly and clearly
than I did.
Well done.
[> [> [> Re: Thin
line between love and misogyny -- Yellow Bear, 13:08:53
07/15/03 Tue
Sorry but I think a lot of people are in this game of desperatly
trying to not to call Spike a misogynist despite the evidence.
When we are justifying a character's tendency to be a rapist with
his attacks "being motivated by sexual desire & not a hatred
of women" then I would say we are blurring the line on misogyny
to the point that it no longer matters. Unsouled Spike is a rapist
therefore he is a misogynist. What could be a more basic form
of hatred than forcing yourself sexually on another person whether
that hatred is personal or not hardly matters as the action speaks
for itself.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Thin line between love and misogyny -- ECH, 19:57:18 07/15/03
Tue
I don't think the AR even had to do with his sexual desire or
lust for Buffy. To him violent sex was the only tool that seemed
to work to get her to spend time with him and want to be with
him. If Buffy showed him she liked torture like Dru did he would
IMHO have tried to use torture to get her back. This is the one
think that I think some viewers have trouble understanding about
Spike. He basically does everything and anything to give his love
what he thinks she wants and be the kind of person he thinks she
wants him to be. Spike would have never thought that Buffy would
want to become a vampire which was why I never believed for one
minute he would ever try to vamp her. Spike did believe that she
was attracted to the dark starting in mid season 6 as Spike said
later in Normal Again. So, IMHO Spike going darker, increasingly
violent, and sexual was very much in character. When it became
clear to him after TR and Smashed that Buffy wanted someone dark
and violent to seduce her and that she didn't want Spike the nice
heroic boyfriend he changed himself. The thing about the AR is
that it could have been Spike trying to force anything on her
that he thought she wanted, sex was just what she showed him she
wanted the most from him. In real life very very few date rapes
occur because the guy or girl is doing what he honestly think
his or her partner wants him to be doing.
Yes, there are many many cases were the attacker wants to claim
that the victim really wanted it, but deep down in the vast majority
of those cases it was because the attacker just wanted sex, but
the case of SR was different IMHO. Spike wasn't trying to rape
Buffy because he really wanted sex from her. He wanted her, the
sex was just a tool that she seemed to like and that appeared
to work in the past to be with and spend time her. The scene itself
was created based on a female writer using sexual violence to
get her boyfriend back. But, in that instance I don't know if
the female writer just wanted sex from her boyfriend or she thought
he wanted sex from her so if she gave it to him he would want
to be with her again. I would probably bet the latter occured.
The point is there is no way in hell IMHO that such an act is
based on the hatered of any gender.If Buffy wanted Spike to litterly
castrate himself in season 6 and only then would she spend time
with him and have feelings for him IMHO he would have been willing
to chop off his own freeking balls. If Buffy just wanted to cuddle
with him in season 6 he would have been perfectly happy to cuddle
with her. This may seem messed up, but it does not demonstate
that Spike wants to dominate or control Buffy, only to be with
her. And, there is no way in hell IMHO that it shows that Spike
hates (Buffy) or women in general.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Thin line between love and misogyny -- Yellow Bear,
09:30:20 07/16/03 Wed
The 'sexual desire' thing was actually a quote from another post
(sorry, if that wasn't clear). It's what got under my skin a little
and led me to post this rather harsh diatribe on the subject.
[> [> [> [> Miso
Gyny: The soup your OB recommends! -- Valheru, 23:32:26
07/15/03 Tue
Two points:
1) A true, 100% misogynist wouldn't rape a woman. As horrible
as rape is, it is itself a sexual act, which is a chemically pleasurable
experience. The man will definitely enjoy it, and there is even
the possibility that the woman will (not psychologically, of course,
and it's not very fun physiologically, but the horomones and endorphines
can still kick in). And a true misoginist would abhor it all.
He would hate being pleasured by a woman and hate the possibility
of pleasuring her.
Not that I think you're referring to Spike as that extreme
a misogynist, but it's important to understand the purest form
of something before discussing the watered-down variety.
2) If Spike were a misogynist, he never would have left the bathroom.
All Buffy did was get him off of her, but she didn't (nor was
she in any shape to) prevent him from trying again. Hell, if Spike
had really been trying, there's no doubt in my mind he would have
succeeded with Buffy injured and clearly not at the top of her
game.
And just because something violent happens does not mean that
hatred is involved. Buffy skewered a re-ensouled Angel and sent
him to hell for 100 years, but it wasn't out of hatred. Willow
mind-wiped Tara (and later, the whole Scooby Gang), but she didn't
do it because she hated Tara (and Willow certainly isn't a misogynist).
There have been many violent acts on the show that had
nothing to do with hatred of any kind; Spike's AR is no different.
Hatred is a very profound emotion. Basically, it's a sustained
form of anger, not to be confused with dislike (which is sustained
irritation). It's also very rare. Hatred will smack you in the
face harder than any other emotion besides love (and raging
hatred even harder). If it's not knock-your-head-off-obvious,
then it's probably not hatred.
Group hatred is even rarer. I'm not talking about prejudice, which
is a natural social phenomenon that is relatively tame--I'm talking
about bigotry, the kind of hatred that gave us the Nazis and the
KKK in its most extreme form. Misogyny is essentially female bigotry.
A bigot will have a giant "BIGOT!" sign over their head,
like Archie Bunker. And most importantly to this discussion, a
bigot will always act like a bigot.
Does Spike always act like a misogynist? I personally don't think
so. Heck, maybe you do. If so, then you are certainly entitled
to that interpretation. But Spike has been around for 6 years
and has had many interactions with women, so if he's indeed a
misogynist, then it will present itself in every female encounter.
If it doesn't, then one act against one woman does not a misogynist
make.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Miso Gyny: The soup your OB recommends! -- Yellow Bear,
09:24:28 07/16/03 Wed
I may have overstated in my original post. Oh heck, I did overstate.
I am just a little distressed to see so many people coming up
with validations for the actions of a rapist (and Spike is a rapist
at some point, see his speech in NLM). The whole 'sexual desire'
angle puts your foot on the slippery slope to she was asking for
it. Not saying it gets you there but your foots on the slope.
Besides, to the vicitim does the difference between hatred of
women and sexual desire really matter all that much.
Perhaps we can all agree that there are different levels of misogyny,
with Caleb's being at the top of the scale.
[> [> [> [> [>
Hmmm...disagree a little on the rape bit -- s'kat, 14:56:28
07/16/03 Wed
You make some excellent points about misogyny and I whole-heartedly
agree with most of them, but you overstate your case a bit on
rape - by assuming that rape is necessarily a sexual act or requires
"pleasure" in either party.
1) A true, 100% misogynist wouldn't rape a woman. As horrible
as rape is, it is itself a sexual act, which is a chemically pleasurable
experience. The man will definitely enjoy it, and there is even
the possibility that the woman will (not psychologically, of course,
and it's not very fun physiologically, but the horomones and endorphines
can still kick in). And a true misoginist would abhor it all.
He would hate being pleasured by a woman and hate the possibility
of pleasuring her.
Actually, you can rape someone without any pleasure. A man can
rape a woman without using any part of his body.
Just as a woman can rape a woman. Or a man a man. Or a woman a
man. Rape is an act of violence and more often than not generated
or motivated by hate. Sometimes towards women as gender (this
by serial rapists who rape strangers), sometimes towards just
the person (stalkers can fit into this category).
But Val is right to an extent: Not all rapes are motivated out
of hatred. And I honestly don't believe the vampires rapes are
- soullessSpike and Angelus raped for the pleasure of it and using
their bodies, they also worked to stimulate pleasure in the other
party - this shown metaphorically with siring. As Angel explained
to Cordelia in Billy. They enjoyed taking whatever they wanted.
Just as you could say HyenaXander and Faith do attempted rapes
out desire to take, I honestly don't think hate was really a key
component.
Spikes attempted sexual assault on Buffy was not really a rape,
because it lacked clear intent. It was a sexual assualt b/c there
was 0 consent. Intent is a very important factor when determining
rape, as is carrying out the act. Also Spike's act was in no way
motivated out of hatred. We have tons of evidence proving Spike
did not in any way shape or form hate Buffy, he may have wanted
to, because loving her was in effect destroying him - but that's
not the same as hate. Frustration, desire, fury, confusion - yes,
but hatred? no. In that Val is correct.
I honestly see Xander's fears in Hells Bells as fitting the concept
of misogyny far better than Spike's actions in the
bathroom scene. But, I can understand why some watching that scene
feel the need to see it as hatred, it is far harder to deal with
the possibility that it can be motivated by other emotions - b/c
that would be akin to admitting you yourself could find yourself
doing something like that and/or could be the victim of it, or
maybe were and that, understandably is not something any of us
want to deal with. To be honest the scene would have been easier
for me to handle if it was more black and white, an evil monster,
Buffy stakes. But it wasn't. And that is the reason we're still
debating it over a year later, no matter what thread we're in
at the moment. It is also the reason that I think the actor, James
Marsters came very very close to having a nervous breakdown and
leaving the show over doing it (as he implies in some interviews,
stating CrazySpike in S7 was a bit too close to what he himself
was going through for comfort, the reason he threw method acting
out the window)...b/c he himself had troubles understanding what
was going on in that scene. The Angel/Angelus story line in S2
was sooo much easier for us to deal with emotionally. This was
not. But to put lables such as misogyny on it, I think is trivalizing
it or may even be a means of stating that oh, I'm a guy and not
a misogynist so no fear of me going there (I'm not implying that
anyone on this board is thinking or saying that - just speaking
generally - I have no clue what gender most posters are or their
experience) or a woman stating, oh my boyfriend isn't a misogynist
so no fear of that and since I'm a woman? No fear of me ever doing
it either. What the AR scene suggests in its murkiness is when
you get involved in a S&M type of relationship - then the possibility
of sexual assualt and/or rape always exists. When the two parties
are playing domination games with each other, mixed signals can
always happen. No matter how much you trust one another. And that
I think is far more frightening to some of us than the idea that
Spike hated women/hated Buffy and tried to rape her. Because the
misogyny view - let's Buffy off the hook and us through her. "It's
all Spike's fault...I feel better now. Stake him. Torture him.
I don't have to think about it any further." etc.
The counter to that is equally true by the way - the posters who
couldn't deal with the concept of Spike attacking Buffy in that
way - make it all Buffy's fault, and that view in some ways scares
me even more than the other one does. And is why I had problems
with the scene.
It wasn't Buffy's fault. It's not that simple. She had no way
of predicting it would go that far. Did her actions propell it
there? Maybe. But that does not make it her fault. (Again not
saying anyone on this board is suggesting this, just speaking
generally). So validating Spike's actions - is another way of
letting ourselves off the proverbial hook. "Buffy drove him
to it. It's all her fault.
Torture her. The bitch. She should have kicked him off sooner.
Spike would never do that." etc.
I honestly think the scene the way it's written doesn't give us
that easy an escape route. There's no way out. No pat explanation.
No safe answer. And ECH may have come closest to seeing what happened
due to the fact that his own experience oddly parallels it as
well as the writer's whose experience the whole B/S relationship
was based on. I honestly believe that if you've never been in
this type of relationship or situation it is nearly impossible
to completely wrap your emotions or brain around it without losing
it a bit or wanting to come up with some nice answer to explain
it away. And I think from Whedon's quote - that may have been
Whedon and Company's intention - not to give us an easy way out
because in real life things tend to be ambiguous and not so easy
to explain away.
I don't know if that made any sense. Just wanted to clear
the rape stuff up a bit more...although methinks I just made it
murkier.
YMMV.
sk
[> [> [> Re: Thin
line between love and misogyny-Agree -- sdev, 13:42:33
07/15/03 Tue
"Besides, misogyny isn't selective. Misogynists hate ALL
women, in the same way, out of knee-jerk prejudice. A misogynist
wouldn't be able to take care of Dawn, talk soaps with Joyce,
ruminate the old days with Anya, dote on Drusilla, or seek out
a soul for Buffy. His prejudice never would have allowed it."
Absolutely. While it may be arguable how Spike treated Buffy,
where is the misogyny with Dru? To me it is non-existent. I don't
think misogyny comes with an on and off switch.
Did anyone read this article? Did JW explicitly identify the misogynists?
Also, I don't think chauvinism and misogyny are interchangeable.
While all misogynists may be chauvinists, the reverse is not true.
Chauvinism is more of a social phenomenum.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Thin line between love and misogyny-Agree -- Yellow Bear,
15:37:59 07/15/03 Tue
I read the article and while Whedon does not say 'Spike is a misogynist',
it's pretty clear that he considers that part of the B/S relationship.
He refers to the relationship as being "all about dominance,
control and, ultimately, deep misogyny". I take that 'ultimately'
as being in referrence to the attempted rape but the quote is
certainly vague enough to support another interpretation of it.
As I stated earlier, this a very brief quote about a very complex
relationship so maybe we should try not to read too much into
it.
[> [> [> [> [>
Good point, particularly when you read S7 quote, now in archives
-- s'kat, 17:07:36 07/15/03 Tue
As I stated earlier, this a very brief quote about a very complex
relationship so maybe we should try not to read too much into
it.
After getting around to reading his S7 blurb in archive one,(
boy that got archived fast. Probably b/c we all agreed with it.
;-) ) I realized that we may be reading too much into it. It's
possible the interviewer misquoted or misheard the word. It's
possible that Whedon is as confused about the meaning of misogyny
as many people are. Or and a friend of mine came up with this
explanation - it could just be that he sees all negative acts
towards any women as misogynistic, the broad labeling thing. Just
as James Marsters does. I find the use of the term puzzeling,
b/c while I see the B/S relationship as manipulative, obsessive,
abusive, ugly, disturbing, violent, S&M, dominance, and dark
side of power - I fail to see anything remotely misogynistic about
it. But hey, I've known of relationships between two women and
two men that reached the same levels of horror, so I don't identify
anything in that relationship as misogynistic. Xander and Anya?
more so actually. Even though I'd hardly call Xander a misogynist
by any stretch of the imagination. It may be that Joss is confused
as to the term and just using it wrong?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Good point, particularly when you read S7 quote,
now in archives -- Yellow bear, 00:34:51 07/16/03 Wed
I think your friend may have hit on the answer to our little quandary
in that Whedon may see all negative acts (particularly violent
ones) towards woman as being misogynistic.
Man, that one little word has sure caused a heck of long thread.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I saw it in a fairly simple way....... -- Rufus,
03:41:30 07/16/03 Wed
Misogyny is the precursor to patriarchy and as Spike was brought
up in a patriarchal society he had certain ideas of women as possessions.
In season four we saw a glimpse of partriarchy in Giles's dream.....
(A pocket watch on a chain, swinging back and forth in front
of a chest wearing Giles' tweedy conservative clothes.)
GILES VOICEOVER: You have to stop thinking.
(Fade to Buffy's face, looking pleased. The reflection of the
watch moves
across her face.)
GILES VOICEOVER: Let it wash over you.
BUFFY: Don't you think it's a little old-fashioned?
GILES: This is the way women and men have behaved since the
beginning...
(We see Giles' apartment, with no furniture except one chair,
which Buffy is sitting on. Giles stands in front of her with the
pocket watch.)
GILES: ...before time. Now look into the light.
Joss said that some of what Spike did was based upon deep misogyny,
but does that mean that Spike was only a misogynist or did that
mean that some of his actions were based upon his patriarchal
upbringing and that as a soulless creature his natural bent would
tend towards acting out (in extreme circumstances)in a misogynist
way? Add in that the actions of Warren who acted out along the
extreme end of the spectrum of possible misogynist thoughts. The
difference is that one of them was able to see the err in his
ways and do something to change themselves and the other thought
to the end that he was right and everyone other than him was wrong.
Before there was patriarchy there had to be misogyny and any extreme
actions of violence and domination towards women could be seen
as sourced from deep misogyny. I think that Joss was showing us
what happens when we act in ways that bring out the worst in each
other. The miracle was that Buffy and Spikes relationship ended
with love in season seven.
"By our interactions with each other we redeem us all."
ML Von Franz
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Excellent Reading, Rufus -- Yellow Bear, 08:46:09
07/16/03 Wed
I think you get to an underlining cause of the statement with
this post. Clearly, Whedon has an obsession with the nature of
patriarchal society, and the constructed roles within it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: I saw it in a fairly simple way.......
-- s'kat, 12:55:41 07/16/03 Wed
Hmmm...I think you are right here, this fits with what Minear
said about Whedon's addition to the episode Billy - the line:
"the primoridal misogyny".
I disagree with Whedon's views on misogyny somewhat, I think he's
confusing Patriarchy and Misogyny or the male desire to control
and possess with the misogynist's desire to destroy and women
by the way can be misogynistic, just as men/women can be misanthropic
- they wish to destroy themselves and everything female. (I've
met a couple in my lifetime).
At any rate while misogyny may have some root in the control/possess
patriarchial aspect, I don't believe that it is the cause of that.
If anything it seems to be the other way around - hating that
which you cannot control or possess. Which come to think of it
- might be what Whedon was going for...that when the man couldn't
get what he wanted he became somewhat misogynistic? (shrug)
At any rate I do agree with the following statement, even though
I'm not sure I can agree with the view that misogyny preceeded
patriarchy, I remain unconvinced that it's not the other way around,:
think that Joss was showing us what happens when we act in
ways that bring out the worst in each other. The miracle was that
Buffy and Spikes relationship ended with love in season seven.
"By our interactions with each other we redeem us all."
ML Von Franz
Yes - I think that was the point of both Season 6 and 7.
Whedon should hire you as his interview interpretor. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> The quote said 'deep' misogyny -- curious,
13:15:13 07/16/03 Wed
so did "deep" mean far under the surface where it unconsciously
affected Spike or all the men or all the characters because they
live in a patriarchal culture?
Or did he mean "deep" as in incredibly, extremely misogynistic?
Did he mean just Spike - or misogyny in general?
I don't think there was enough in that little quote to be sure
what he meant. Wasn't Buffy abusing power and being controlling
too? Willow?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Agreed. We really don't have enough
to go on. -- s'kat, 13:34:04 07/16/03 Wed
Perhaps this is a case of needing the author to come back once
again and interpret the intent behind his quote about intent?
Ahh...the difficulties and permutations of authorial intent.
In some ways, I think it would have been better if Joss kept his
mouth shut, let his work speak for itself, instead of just muddying
the waters further. OTOH, I like some of the things he said, so
am glad he tried to clarify. Maybe if he'd just left out the word
misogynist. Oh well.
[> [> If Spike is a misogynist,
who isn't? -- Moscow Watcher, 04:54:08 07/15/03 Tue
Maybe Angel, who loved torturing Dru and Buffy in his unsouled
state?
Or maybe Xander who jilted Anya at the altar?
Or Riley who left Buffy because he could't stand her strength?
[> [> Re: Spike IS a
misogynist! -- Miss Edith, 15:18:02 07/15/03 Tue
A misogynist hates all women, therefore Spike cannot possibly
qualify, you yourself acknowledge his relationship with Dawn,
Buffy, Drusilla (I would add Joyce, and Spike's grieving for her
in Forever talking of having liked the lady and leaving flowers
in rememberence of her).
He planned to torture Drusilla to prove he could be a demon. She
dumped him because he was letting his inner core of humanity affect
his behaviour towards her. Spike was incapable of hurting Dru
as Angelus had, he wasn't demon enough for the likes of her. His
torture of Dru says nothing about Spike's true desires, as he
was only planning to torture Dru because it was what she wanted
from him.
As for "trying his damndest to brutally rape Buffy"
I wouldn't agree with that. I never saw the AR as being about
dominance or control, it was more a nervous breakdown. Not a premeditated
act arising from a need to control Buffy. He is repulsed by his
actions, he flees from the bathroom with tears in his tears after
acknowledging what he's done. In his crypt we saw him struggling
with flashbacks, and eventually deciding to change his entire
self for love of a woman. How can you hate women, and yet characterise
yourself as loves bitch?
Spike openly admired strong women, he longed to fight duels with
the slayers as equal warriors. Yes he was a vampire, and his purpose
was to overpower and kill them, but he still showed respect towards
them as opponents. Hardly ranting about taking the bitches down,
more "I could have danced all night with that one".
And I don't remember Spike ever trying to keep Dru under his thumb.
On the contrary in season 2 he talks of not being able to stand
seeing Dru so weak, he searches tirelessly for a cure.
And again with Buffy I never saw Spike as wanting to keep Buffy
depressed. In episodes like Hells Bells Spike is pleased to see
Buffy happy with her friends. In Normal Again he informs her she
is addicted to misery, he has realised she is not drawn to the
dark as he once suspected. Spike did try to drag Buffy down to
his level on occasion it's true. Smashed, "I may be dirt,
but you're the one that likes to roll in it". Dead Things
with his trying to convince Buffy to join him in the dark. But
I disagree that he had a need to see Buffy depressed and under
his control. More a desire to see Buffy become just as dark and
evil as she frequently told him that he was. Buffy repeatedly
made it clear Spike had no chance with her. I believe the demon
in him longed to change that, to see Buffy accept him and beocme
one with him and the dark. But the human in him acknowledged that
Buffy was always about the light to him, he eventually made the
choice to pursue that and also fought to arise to the light himself
in Grave.
And Smashed saw Spike tell Buffy some harsh home truths sure,
but he delighted in her giving back as good as she got. He made
sure that she threw the first punch, Buffy iniated the sex taking
control. In Dead Things Spike attempts to take control in the
balcony scene, but shortly after that he allows Buffy to brutally
beat him in order to release her frustrations. I always saw B/S
as being less about deliberate abuse on either side, but more
just being very sad with two very confused people who no longer
knew where they fit in the world. For Joss to take up Marti's
talk of Spike being the bad boyfriend, and our heroine being his
victim disapoints me greatly.
Spike worshipped Buffy, he mourned her death for months. His grief
is expressed in the "every night I save you" speech
which is overflowing with remorse. Not to mention spending the
summer with the scoobies, and babysitting Dawn in order to fullfil
a promise to a woman that he admired, "I made a promise to
a lady".
Spike was perfectly happy to defer to women. I cannot match that
with him wanting to beat down all women, and make them submissive
to him. I would agree he does have some sexist notions of women,
he throws around words like "bitch" and "bint"
freely. But if Joss thinks that makes Spike a misogynist then
he is failing to understand the term IMHO.
B/S was about them both feeding on each others unhealty desires,
they were both incrediably f*cked up. For Joss to claim the relationship
was all about Spike hating women, and wishing to dominate Buffy
is just ludicrous to me. Althought it does support my theory that
Joss was so wrapped up in Firefly that he paid little attention
to Buffy episodes. I find myself wondering if he even watched
some of them *shrug*
[> [> [> To follow
up on my thoughts on the AR -- Miss Edith, 15:32:15 07/15/03
Tue
It was to me clearly about desperation, not misogyny. To say the
AR saw Spike hating Buffy is to completely misinterpret the scene.
It was Spike's desperate attempt to make Buffy feel it, to awaken
her love for him through the use of sex, the closest he had managed
to get to her in the past. We all know how desperate he was to
have Buffy love him, he sought the soul to become worthy of Buffy,
to feel wanted by her. Therefore in his right mind he would know
that taking buffy by force would pretty much be the stupidest
thing he could do.
Morever the fact that the AR was based on a female member of staff
trying to force sex on her ex boyfriend, just makes it even more
ridiculous to label it misogyny.
[> [> [> [> Re:
To follow up on my thoughts on the AR -- Q, 19:40:57 07/15/03
Tue
>>>To say the AR saw Spike hating Buffy is to completely
misinterpret the scene<<<
Actually, I would say that to say this is just a *different* interpretation
of the scene. Your posts read like everybody else is an idiot
and that yours is the only "interpretation". I would
think the fact that Joss himself is "misinterpreting"
the scene would humble you a bit, but I guess there is just nothing
that will let you view any other point of view than the one you
are so determined to see.
I think that some good points have been made saying Spikes motivations
are not about misogeny, and he wasn't symbolic of misogeny.
But I think just as good of points have been made for the fact
that he IS a misogenist. If these points weren't totally valid
before, they HAVE to be given more weight if Joss agrees with
them.
I'm not saying that audience interpretation isn't valid. Sometimes
it is just as valid as authorial intent-- but it shouldn't be
MORE valid, I don't think.
The world is full of "experts", people with expertise
in certain subjects. If I had to pick just one "expert"
to find out about subtext and the inner depths of BtVS, I'm pretty
sure I would pick Joss Whedon over most people on this, and any
other board. I might pick some people on this board if I needed
an expert on classic film or literature. I might pick somebody
on this board if I needed an expert on dream analysis or Nietzsche,
but If I want an expert on Buffyverse, I think I will trust that
the man who INVENTED the Buffyverse is less likely to "misinterpret"
a scene than a bunch of people sitting around on line arguing
about it all day!
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: To follow up on my thoughts on the AR -- Yellow Bear,
00:30:34 07/16/03 Wed
Your final paragraph contains an excellent point (close to what
I've been trying to say) about the nature of authorial intent.
The writer does have access to an experience that we simply can't
have (just as our experience will be different than his/hers)
so that experience has to carry some weight. I believe it has
to carry more weight (at least on some level) because this experience
began with him/her and we are just the interpretors of his/her
work.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: To follow up on my thoughts on the AR -- Miss Edith,
13:09:16 07/16/03 Wed
Well Joss himself has acknowledged Spikes love for Buffy as real.
He previously talked of Spike being confused by previous sex games
during the AR, because of their violent relationship. The soul
helping him to understand when Buffy says no, Joss seemed to feel
Spike couldn't really understand Buffy saying no and meaning it
before that. How does previously calling the scene a misunderstanding,
based on Spike's soulles status, square with Joss now implying
that Spike was always a hater of all women, and apparently it
was the soul that changed that?
I do generally write IMO a lot, so I wouldn't say my posts are
necesserily always claiming that my interpretation is the only
valid one. But yes I do feel strongly about Joss's interview implying
the AR was about Spike hating Buffy. Because frankly it makes
no sense to me to characterise a character who is all about love,
as secretly hating all women. Spike is constantly living his life
depending on what his women want. He became a vampire because
of Ceciley, Dru had Spike wrapped around her little finger, he
got his soul for Buffy. That to me does not add up to a man who
hates women, and wishes to dominate and control them. I suspect
the writers are trying a little too hard to stress the differance
between souled and unsouled Spike. We all know unsouled Spike
messed with their canon in season 6, that was why he was given
a soul.
How does Joss's claim that Spike hated Buffy in the AR scene (if
he is saying that scene shows Spike as a misogynist I can only
assume that is what he's saying) match up with Spike feeling torn
apart when realising he had hurt Buffy, instead of becoming closer
to winning her heart. Spike felt guilty after the act, once he
realised what he had done. Surely that supports Joss's original
statement more, that the AR was a minunderstanding on Spike's
part, because Spike lacked a soul to let him truly understand
Buffy, and be good for her.
IMO breaking through Buffy's barriors and forcing her to admit
she loved him, was Spike's real intent in that scene, he is even
telling her to let yourself feel it, I will make you love me.
I sensed real desperation, Spike experiencing a nervous breakdown.
He went on to seek a soul for Buffy so that he would never hurt
her like that again. And yet the scene was, according to Joss,
about hate from Spike. That is what I am questioning.
I stand by my opinion that Joss is not intepretating the scene
in a way that makes sense. Espcecially as it's well known he wasn't
even on set much during season 6, he was concentrating on Firefly
and the rains were handed over to Marti almost totally after Smashed
I believe. Therefore it's highly likely Joss was not involved
in planning the scene (indeed it was Marti pushing for it) or
even on set when it was filmed. In that case then yes I don't
see why Joss's opinion should be held up as right. In season 6
the writers admitted portraying certain characters based on their
own interpretations, and not all sitting together and coming to
a common agreement. So sorry Joss suddenly giving his opinion
on a scene that he most likely was not even involved in does not
humble me, or my views.
I would agree that Spike does have some sexist notions of women,
I just don't think that means he hates all women. That is what
Joss is saying.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: To follow up on my thoughts on the AR -- Miss
Edith, 13:43:51 07/16/03 Wed
Joss did invent the Buffyverse, as you point out. But many fans
are arguing that he abandoned his baby for Firefly. In several
interviews he compares Buffy negatively to his experiences with
Firefly (even the Firely cast are praised in his comparision with
Joss subtly taking digs at the Buffy cast, with certain people
thinking they are "stars")
Anyway my point is yes Joss invented the Buffyverse. And actually
I would probably agree with most of his comments from the first
five seasons, and really believe he knows what he's talking about.
But he himself has acknowledged that season 6 was Marti Noxen's
thing. She talks of being the queen of pain, and I saw her influence
throughout season 6.
I'm aware that Joss approved of all the angst, but I don't think
that stretched to discussing particular storys. IMO he gave the
story outlines. A the beginning of the year his guideline to marti
was in being interested in getting inot the following; Buffy's
ressurection will have consequences, all season she won't be right.
Spike will sleep with Buffy. Willow will be seduced by dark magic.
Xander will fear committment. Giles must be written off in some
way. And Marti supervised the bulk of the season, Joss simply
looked through scripts that were already completed, and added
his opinions. (He did rewrite a scene from HB).
I'm sure there will be plenty of people arguing that Joss was
heavily involved in season 6, I never saw that, even the cast
have mentioned Joss not being on set much. I saw his supervision
of Bts as being him simply having final approvel, but not really
being invested enough to discuss possible changes, and ways of
making the show better. Rather he was trusting Marti completely
to handle things, it was basically Martis' vision guiding the
show for season 6. Joss was more like the adviser, playing a minor
role in looking over a student dissertation, but the work not
really being his.(Probably a controversial view, but that's how
Joss's work on the last two seasons came across to me personally).
The season was Marti's to shape, therefore why do Joss's views
count simply because he invented the show seven years ago, and
then drastically limited his involvement?
Admitedly if I did agree with what Joss was saying, I probably
would say his views as author should at least count for something
:) Joss's words in this interview just make no sense to me, so
yes I do feel treating his word as the definative one is a mistake.
Maybe if Joss clarified his views more, and went into what he
felt goes into Spike's hatred of women. It was just a throw away
statement, so I really cannot make sense of it at the moment.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: To follow up on my thoughts on the AR --
RJA, 14:02:12 07/16/03 Wed
I'm not altogether sure that Joss lack of involvment isnt being
overstated here. What changed in season six is that he was no
longer the show runner. What we're talking about here is being
on set all day everday, approving the music, the editing, the
way a scene looks, and every single aspect of every single scene.
Because this is his level of involvment in the early days.
Thats a big jump from going from that to very little involvment
other than checking what is going on from time to time.
The writers still maintain that in season six he was involved
on every aspect of the story, and breaking it, and coming up with
ideas.
He came up with the idea of Buffy being in heaven, Spuffy, the
balcony scene, wrote many uncredited scenes (such as Hells Bells,
Grave and others), and went over each outline with the writers
before they wrote this. And this is what the writers at ME continue
to back up.
I think its often said that Marti wrested control from Joss because
people are not so happy with season 6 and 7, and so dont want
to attribute the creative decisions to him. Yet most evidence
suggests he was very much involved in a very real way. For instance,
season 5 is very similar in tone to season 6, yet the two are
rarely considered together.
Ultimately, Joss claims responsibility and big creative involvment
with all seasons of Buffy (and his comments about favouring one
class over another do not indicate that his creative involvment
was less). Therefore we have to take what he says as indicating
the thought processes that went into this. The real question is
how far the audience has to listen and take account of that, which
is dicussed elsewhere in this thread by people far more intelligent
than me :-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> But DID Joss say Spike was a misogynist? -- curious,
14:36:42 07/16/03 Wed
That is what Joss is saying.
I'm not sure he did.The tiny little quote that has everyone so
hot and bothered says:
And, her getting into a genuinely unhealthy relationship with
Spike that was all about dominance, control, and deep misogyny.
How lost did we get? Well, our villain turned out to be Willow.
It looks to me like he was saying that B/S was an exploration
of an unhealthy relationship that contained elements of dominance,
control and misogyny - on both sides. That Buffy's self hate was
also a form of misogyny. And there really isn't enough to the
quote to know exactly what he meant.
The quotes about S7 B/S as "romantic" and "beautiful"
also change the interpretation of the first quote.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Valid points! Agree. Perhaps Joss was implying
something else? -- s'kat, 15:15:18 07/16/03 Wed
Ms. Giles actually sort of pointed that out in response to my
response to her post below...that perhaps this may refer to Buffy
as well, then backed quickly off of it. I'm beginning to think
she may have been on to something. (It just sounds sort of ironically
ludicrous, yet isn't if you think it through). It certainly is
more consistent with the other Joss statements:
S6 was about hating the power and trying to give it away, S7 is
about appreciating it and sharing it. (one of the articles I posted
a link to some time ago but can't remember, it was part of my
Fatals essay) Which if you consider "power" is Whedon's
metaphor for women power or feminism - could very well be S6 about
hating being female and S7 about loving it?
Also the show is all about Buffy, not about Spike and Spike has
often been characterized as Buffy's shadow self. Not to mention
the observations of many fans that Spike took on some very feminine,
albeit potentally negative feminine traits, in season 6 - so perhaps
Buffy projected her own distaste on to him? This would fit with
her comment in cwDP to Holden and Spike's statement to her in
NLM - "you hated yourself last year and you put all that
hate on to me".
So perhaps the misogynist in the picture isn't Spike but Buffy??
Buffy's hatred of herself and her feminine nature and all that
implies? Interesting twist. And possible, because as I've stated
elsewhere, even though it sounds like a contradiction in terms,
it is possible for a woman to be a misogynist.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Quick agreement -- curious, 15:27:57
07/16/03 Wed
so perhaps Buffy projected her own distaste on to him?
I'll have to think about this some more - but I think that is
what he was saying. I think there was a lot of interesting gender
role bending with Spike. Spike was arguably the most nurturing
character besides Tara. And, in many ways, the most "feminine".
Lots of juicy stuff.
I really don't think JW was saying Spike was a misogynist. I think
he was saying much more than that.
[> [> [> Re: Spike
IS a misogynist! -- Q, 19:24:01 07/15/03 Tue
>>>For Joss to claim the relationship was all about Spike
hating women, and wishing to dominate Buffy is just ludicrous
to me. Althought it does support my theory that Joss was so wrapped
up in Firefly that he paid little attention to Buffy episodes.
I find myself wondering if he even watched some of them<<<
Well, some of us got this out of watching the show long before
Joss said a word, so I think Joss knew exactly what was going
on. Most people attacked my opinion like it just wasn't valid.
I thought for sure that with statements like Joss' people would
at least accept this opinion as a valid viewpoint, one to be considered.
I mean, Authorial intent may not be EVERYTHING, but is it not
SOMETHING? But I see now that I never even had a HOPE of having
anybody consider it, if they'll even attack Joss himself about
his views on the show. sigh.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Spike IS a misogynist! -- Miss Edith, 16:08:45 07/16/03
Wed
Well I don't remember ever attacking your views of Spike being
a misogynist. And I don't think I am attacking Joss, simply by
saying I don't think he had enough involvement in season 6 to
talk in depth about it. Not an attack, just my opinion that Marti
is the more qualified person to judge season 6. (And actually
season 6 has astonisingly grown on me a lot since I have purchased
the DVDs and watched episodes in a marathon seassion, and checked
out the special features. So saying it was mostly Marti's work
isn't really the slam that some people seem to be taking it for.
It's just the facts as I personally see them).
Anyway to get back on topic, if Joss had said something about
an aspect of Spike's personality that I saw differently, I most
likely wouldn't care all that much. I would just present my own
opinion, and leave it as that. (I have never seen the author as
the be all and end all anyway *shrug*) My problem with the characterisation
of B/S as being about deep misogyny is this. Spike was guided
by his heart for over a century with Drusilla, he proudly labels
himself loves bitch to B/A in Lover's Walk. He calls Dru his princess,
his black Goddess, claims she transformed his life, delivering
him from mediocraty. His love for Buffy later transformed Spike.
Sure the demon occasionally came to the fore, and showed a very
unhealthy obession, and manipulative tactics (I am thinking mainly
of after sex was being had). Still Spike's interaction with the
scoobies over the summer, his friendship with Dawn, all started
because of his feelings for Buffy.
To call Spike a hater of women to me is to reject the fundamental
aspect of what Spike is all about. I post on fan forum in the
Spike thread (under a different name). Not to generalise, but
a lot of those posters are women. Many of them see Angel and Riley
as chavanistic with Buffy. They generally see Spike as admiring
Buffy's strength, and revelling in the power of a strong woman.
There are many examples of Spike delighting in Buffy's power with
him, and seeming to desire a relationship of equals. Buffy was
not IMO a victim of Spike, she was a victim of an unhealthy relationship
that it took two people to create. Indeed far from being the victim
of the bad boyfriend, Buffy consistently tore Spike down. E.g
in AYW ordering Spike to say he loves her. You see the hope shining
on his face, Buffy was aware of that, and using Spike's love for
her. Spike too attempted to use Buffy for his own purpose. He
needed Buffy to be interested in order for him to physically express
the love he felt, and hope it would someday be returned. In Smashed
he is delighted at Buffy having come back wrong, he sees his opportunity
for sex now he is, in his opinion, no longer beneath Buffy. Again
in DT he attempts to use Buffy's depresion and confusion for his
own ends. I can totally buy B/S being about dominance and control,
it was horribly unhealthy. But the hatred was always on Buffy's
side IMO (mainly directed towrds herself). Spike was about twisted
love and obsession, not hatred of Buffy. I cannot call Buffy a
victim if Spike being a bad bf, because of the active role she
took in B/S (excluding the AR obviously).
Spike's worship of Dru, and later Buffy was what got interest
in his character sky-rocketing, whilst some mourned for the loss
of the season 2 baddy. For Joss to suddenly remark that Spike
is a misygynist has caused quite a stir. I could have accepted
Joss saying something like Spike had sexist notions of women.
I probably would still be arguing, but using less words like ludicrous:)
To me Joss has just attacked the very core of Spike's character,
the reason why people became attached to him in the first place.
It was after FFL that he became the most complex and interesting
character to me. And a big part of that growth was his love for
a woman. I really wish Joss would clarify what he meant when suddenly
out of the blue stating that Spike hates the female gender. Particularly
as he seems to be contradicting what he has said in past interviews.
I feel he shouldn't have made such a controversial point, without
expanding on what he actually meant.
[> [> Ahem.....Vampire
here. Equal opportunity predator. N/T -- Deb, 22:46:44
07/16/03 Wed
[> I always thought B/S
was more about *self*-hatred than anything. -- HonorH, 21:01:06
07/14/03 Mon
[> [> Two Little Things
-- Yellow Bear, 23:26:24 07/14/03 Mon
Two things I noticed while going through this thread...
First, S'kat's post reminded me (as if I needed it) of the finer
aspects of Spike's nature, chiefly his ability to transform himself
completely (that pesky soul) for the sake of a woman. This is
hardly the act of misogynist so how do we reconcile it with some
of Spike's other actions? Simply, Spike is a character in constant
conflict with himself. The facets of his character, the misogyny
and the romanticism, are in battle with each other. These are
just some of the wars going on inside the psyche of William the
Bloody which is what makes him such a facinating character although
it seems that some of his biggest fans want to smother this aspect
of him.
Secondly, this concept of Whedon having to explain the narrative
to us. I have never needed Whedon to explain the narrative to
me but I enjoy hearing the process that went into creating it.
Are we not to listen to the authors at all anymore? As I stated
above, I loved the quote that started this all not because it
explained the text to me but confirmed my reading of it. There
is nothing quite as thrilling as being in sync with a storyteller.
In addition, I have rarely (if ever) found ME quotes to contradictary.
As I stated above, these are complex shows so a brief little snipet
in an interview will only give us one facet of the thought process
that went into creating the storyline. A poster on this board
recently stated that Espenson & Whedon gave contradictary motivations
for the AR in Seeing Red, namely that Whedon stated it was about
the lack of a soul & Espenson stated that it was a a result of
the B/S relationship. I don't see this a contradictary but as
two points along the same line in that Spike's lack of a soul
leads to his inability to reconcile himself with the end of the
B/S relationship. Again, we are getting a small peak at a larger
canvas in these interviews so they are going to be unable to give
us a complete look at all aspects of the process of creation.
[> [> [> Authorial
intent -- Rahael, 02:56:13 07/15/03 Tue
It is quite unfashionable isn't it? I have to say that
I pay quite a lot opinion to what the author says. I think it's
an offshoot in my interest in the contexts of the work of art.
For me, it simply adds to the richness to understand where the
narrative is located. I don't really go in for universal narratives.
I grew up reading most of the classic works of English literature
in a place far from its creation, temporally, culturally, geographically.
I immediately understood that I could participate in the narrative,
but also came up against the tensions of 'not belonging'. It's
hard to feel that the narrative is universal when you come up
against a sentence which describes women of your community as
looking like animals, and what's more, as stupid, as unattractive
as animals. That's an extreme opinion. But even some of my most
loved authors can provide moments of difficulty for me as a reader.
This wasn't written for me in mind. This narrative not only doesn't
include me, it was created in opposition to some of the things
I hold dear. It defines itself against people like me.
So I think reader and author and narrative take part in quite
a complex relationship, where it is not passive acceptance on
the part of the reader, nor is it that my opinion (certain works,
for instance, I don't value as important to me, neither do they
speak to me) is better, more 'right' than the narrative.
But my own response, my very individual, contextualised, response
is very valuable to me. It may not be valuable for any one else,
but that doesn't decrease its resonance. If I can take a hostile
text and make it work for me, so much better is my satisfaction.
And finally, I also say that art can transcend the particular
local contexts in which the author resides. The power of the narrative
is such that prejudices and unpleasantnesses and bitterness and
all the little things that make our authors so human get transmuted
into something beautiful. That is why I can read something by
an author whose views I do not really agree with it all and still
own it, still feel inspired. And the tensions inherent in the
idea of author and reader's sometimes clashing interpretation,
in my opinion, just makes being a reader even more fulfilling!
There's so many layers.
(PS, I tend to pretty much pay attention to what the writer says,
even when I really don't want to hear what they are saying. Because
it's fascinating to see how they tried to convey their ideas,
and why, perhaps, they may have not succeeded in the way they
would have hoped)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Authorial intent -- Yellow Bear, 12:49:53 07/15/03 Tue
Authorial intent is a tricky subject. I hope it's clear that I
don't think we should just listen to what the author says and
nod our head in Jasmine like agreement. However, the author can
supply important context to his/her story.
My main point is that the author's opinion on these boards is
becoming increasingly devalued, and it makes me uncomfortable.
We are all entitled to our own opinion of the text but when we
value any opinion, no matter how illogical or ill-informed, above
the voice of the person who created the text then I think we are
entering into a very dangerous territory where perhaps we should
just abandon the text all together and start making up our own
(which I would argue that some people are already doing).
Long form storytelling such as BTVS is a dangerous animal in that
the audience does not get a completed text but merely stones to
assemble the mossiac of the text. That some wish to take these
stones and make their own mossiac is logical but when you start
throwing stones away or smashing them into different forms in
order to make that mossiac then you are doing a disservice to
the creative enterprise. And I do think we as the audience owe
the creative team some amount of respect. For seven years, ME
has only sought to entertain us (and it would seem that most people
on this board think that they succeded) at the very reasonable
cost of an hour of our lives every other week so attempting to
understand their story, and not our fantasy of their story, seems
like a fair exchange.
[> [> [> [> [>
Wow... best post I have read in a long time! With you on everything!
-- Q, 14:42:38 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Authorial intent -- Darby, 17:20:00 07/15/03 Tue
One can't forget the medium here - what Joss says about the Buffy-Spike
relationship could be what he intended and made sure to get out
there (as he did in the early seasons), or what he intended but
didn't make clear to the rest of the staff who put their own interpretation
/ spin on it, or what he understood the staff intended to flesh
out the seasonal arc with, or how he retcons what actually wound
up on screen with his original intent. All filtered through an
ego that has no intention of admitting when they've failed at
storytelling.
It's useful to know what they meant, but there are myriad reasons
to still cast doubt on that as the be-all and end-all of intent.
And that doesn't really even touch on the other issue of execution.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Agree with this. Well said. -- curious, 13:58:11
07/16/03 Wed
[> Re: Joss interview on
Buffy season 6 in Cinefantastique (CFQ) magazine -- Rufus,
01:40:12 07/15/03 Tue
Everything isn't bigger then life; its actual size.
At the same time there is a darker side of power and Buffy's guilt
about her power and her feeling about coming back to the world.
And, her getting into a genuinely unhealthy relationship with
Spike that was all about dominance, control, and deep misogyny.
How lost did we get? Well, our villain turned out to be Willow."
Interesting few comments that Joss Whedon made and I agree with
him. Season six was all about growing up and how our perception
of the world goes from bigger then life; its actual size.
I loved season six because the barrier between reality and wishful
thinking was shattered a few times. With Willow it was about the
power she thought she was in control of only to find out the opposite
was true. She became a villian because of her inability to get
past her own inner insecurities and selfish wants. In the Buffyverse
you may get what appears to be something for free only to find
that the balance due is staggering.
With Buffy we have the relationship with Spike that if she hadn't
died and been taken from heaven would never have happened. Buffy
would have always been firm with her inability to trust that Spike
could be trusted without the chip. Being dragged from heaven by
her friends left Buffy afraid of what she was and resentful of
her friends. It also made her act upon her deeper desires while
hoping that the man who could count the days she was dead with
such grief was the only Spike that existed. Now how Spike acted
does smack of misogyny. Without a soul, Spike couldn't feel much
past what he wanted and what it would take to get it. As touching
he could act and speak, he still did try every trick in the book
to get what he wanted. He thought that without a soul that he
may not have been good but he was okay. His actions prove that
though his initial intentions were good he didn't have the emotional
maturity to consider Buffys feelings. He was stricken with want
and tried to possess Buffy using what it took to get what he wanted.
The ultimate result was the attempted rape in Seeing Red. Spike
may never have intended to rape Buffy but without a soul it was
easier to use the shortest route to get what he wanted using misogyny
fuelled force. Spike may not have felt he hated women but the
bottom line was that even the Bloody Awful Poet was capable of
giving into the type of thinking that is based in fear and hate.
Then there is growing up. Spike without a soul could only get
so far before his moral compass came up against his desire to
possess and dominate. Something else happened in Seeing Red....Spike
tried to rape Buffy but he also reacted to that impulse to rape
with a revulsion that just months ago he could never have felt
or considered. Doug Petrie said that in The Initiative they "Clockwork
Orange'd" Spike and that chip was the catalyst that allowed
Spike to move from being proud of being a killer of Slayers to
loving one. But without a soul love just wasn't enough to cure
everything that is lacking in the soulless, but it did start Spike
on the road to being able to work past the misogynist impulse
to seek a soul so he could change that. What he did for Buffy
for selfish reasons or not was the start of his redemption in
Chosen.
[> Spike and Billy (AtS)
-- MsGiles, 06:37:19 07/15/03 Tue
Having just seen 'Billy' (AtS3), the mention of misogyny is interesting.
'Billy' being all about misogyny, and not as subtext. I know it's
not a Joss episode (I just checked), and I don't know how much
Joss had to do with S3 (given that Buffy S7 would have been in
production) but I know he had been involved with gender issues
at college, and if he used 'misogyny' of S6, and B/S, then he
would have been aware of what he was saying.
Spike is not Billy, though. Billy the character encapsulates an
extreme misogynistic outlook, and communicates it to other men
via touch and body fluids
Billy: "I don't hate women. I mean, sure, you're all whores
who sell yourselves for money and prestige, but men are just as
bad. Maybe even worse. They're willing to throw away careers or
families, or even lives for what's under your skirt!"
Under the influence of Billy, men start attacking female co-workers
and friends. It's implied that the billy effect works on suppressed
resentments; rather than changing the men's thinking, it removes
inhibition and increases anger and the tendency to physical violence.
The junior lawyer Gavin, normally dismissed by Lilah, attacks
her verbally: "You *think?* Who told you, you could *think?*
You know, why don't you try *listening* once in a while instead
of constantly flapping that fat mouth of yours?" before
beating her up. The police officer helping escort Billy turns
on his female colleague, accusing her again of not listening,
prior to attacking her. And worst of all, Wesley, who has been
confessing an attraction to Fred, finds his frustration and repressed
affection turning into a murderous rage:
Wes stalking closer to her: "You think you can taunt a
man and get away with it? You brush up close, bat your eyes -
and then when our backs are turned, you *laugh* at us."
Fred: "No, I would never..."
Wes: "Humiliate us. You think you can do anything you please
because you're connected to life, because you bleed, is that it?"
Wes pursues Fred intending to rape and/or kill her. Although she
eventually succeeds in knocking him out, when he recovers he is
tormented by the knowledge that at least some of the motivation
for the attack did come from his own feelings for her.
The episode implies that male violence against women is fuelled
by a sense of inferiority: not being listened to, not being taken
seriously, being laughed at. Unable to dominate verbally, unable
to feel secure in their relationships with women, the men define
women as the enemy, and thereby, in their own minds, legitimise
the use of physical violence against them.
It may be that Spike's behaviour in SR was intended to be based
on this interpretation. Unable to understand her rejection of
him, put down by it, he resorts to violence (as he originally
threatened, and held back from, in FFL). I thought LeeAnn's comment
Spike has always existed in the tension between the negative
way he was written and the sympathetic/funny/cool way JM plays
him. very perceptive here, and I thnk this is one of the things
that makes Spike's role in SR so emotive, and so ambivalent.
It might be possible to trace some misogynistic traits in Spike's
behaviour (over and above his general soul-less disregard for
human life and happiness, that is) When he thinks he's freed from
his chip, his first victim is the most helpless woman he can find,
and he works himself up to the bite by scaring her silly. When
he has to find a date for the wedding in HB he finds a goth girl
who he exploits in the most heartless manner. And then there's
Harmony. I agree his relationship with Harmony is a very cruel
and exploitative one - unlike Buffy, she is his physical and mental
inferior, and he never does more than use her. But then this is
S5, and he still has a lot of moving forward to do.
And then again. Angel doesn't succumb to the billy effect, as
he tells Cordy:
Cordy: "So why didn't Billy's touch affect you?"
Angel: "Well, maybe because - I'm not human."
Cordy chuckles: "Oh, right. And a *vampire* could never be
turned into a monster."
Angel: "Well, that thing that Billy brought out in others?
- The hatred and anger...that's something I lost a long time ago."
Cordy: "Even when you were evil?"
Angel: "I never hated my victims, I never killed out of anger,
it was always about the - pain and the pleasure."
Cordy: "Huh. - So I guess you could say that your demoness
makes less petty than humans. Almost noble - I mean, in a twisted,
dark and *really* disturbing kind of way."
and if that goes for Angel, does it go for all vampires, Spike
included?
[> [> Re: Spike and Billy
(AtS) -- Liam, 06:45:32 07/15/03 Tue
The exchange between Angel and Cordy reminds me of the black comedian's
joke about a racist cop who never hit a black man in anger; it
was pure pleasure for him.
[> [> Very nice post
-- Rahael, 06:59:15 07/15/03 Tue
And illustrates that no character ever really stays in one state,
but grows and learns and moves on.
And Harmony is a very good point - I hadn't remembered that.
Also would like to make the point that putting certain women on
a pedestal doesn't mean you love all women. It means you define
other women against them, often detrimentally. It means that you
can put Dawn and Joyce and occasionally Buffy on it, and then,
when one of them falls off, they may become nothing better, belonging
in the dirt and the gutter with him.
Billy is an interesting parallel. Tim Minear tells us that it
is Joss who brought the phrase 'primordial misogyny' to that episode.
Which certainly means that Joss and I have quite different ideas
about misogyny! So I don't know where that really leaves me with
Spike and Misogyny, apart from to say, that I wouldn't say that
just because someone, has on several occasions, exhibited certain
attitudes, - it doesn't mean they can't change, nor that it is
the be all and end all. Human beings (man/womanpires) are complex.
On a personal example, my father grew up in a very traditional
setting, in a village, where his father was very much the patriarch,
not only of the family, but the whole village. Just because he's
up with all the feminist theories and what not doesn't mean he
can't occasionally exhibit a chauvinistic streak. Part of him
is most comfortable with women who conform to expectations and
don't really challenge him, and who are conventional, in appearance
and behaviour. On the other hand he married my mother; and nowadays,
he keeps dating women he *should* like (traditional), and yet
he says, with sadness, that he finds them dull after being with
my mother.
Before I totally blacken his reputation, I should say that in
the time he has been our sole caregiver, he has cooked every meal
for us, made us our lunches to take to school, cleans, and then
sat down and helped me with my school work.
(so, some element of chauvinism can still co-exist with more enlightened
attitudes).
[> [> Spike's Behavior
-- Rina, 08:04:46 07/15/03 Tue
It's interesting that so many try to point out that Spike's AR
of Buffy in "SR" spawned from some misogynist traits
he may possess. And yet, no one wants to acknowledge that his
attack may have also been partly spawned by Buffy's own behavior
toward him in Season 6.
[> [> [> That has
been acknowledged several times, but without the implication that
she was asking for it. -- O'Cailleagh, 08:28:45 07/15/03
Tue
[> [> [> [> Quite
right. I fail to see how one excuses the other in any degree
-- Random, 13:14:30 07/16/03 Wed
[> [> My Difficulty with
this use of the term misogyny -- s'kat, 09:10:57 07/15/03
Tue
I think my difficulty here is with how people are using the term
misogyny, they are defining it a bit too broadly, just as some
define feminism. I've been having this difficulty with a great
deal of Whedon's interviews, to the extent that I'm beginning
to think he is better at writing fiction where his subconscious
takes over, as opposed to giving interviews and interpreting his
work. The difficulty is with the short-hand generalities he uses
to describe it.
Whedon reminds me a lot in this instance of some male women studies
majors I knew in college, (they used to drive me up the wall -
you think women can be obnoxious feminists? try a guy, sometime)
who have decided for reasons that make little or no sense that
all men are chavinists and all men are misogynist at times - sort
of a defense against being a man and a feminist, I suppose. Or
perhaps their guilt at being a man. Akin to what an African American
friend of mine calls - "white liberal guilt."
I would caution against defining misogyny so broadly. Misogyny
means hatred of women. Acts committed because you hate women,
the person does not matter - you are acting against the woman,
she could be a nondescript person on the street - or a transvestite,
as long as it walks, talks and acts like a woman - you will hurt
it. Spike - I really never saw this way, he does not appear to
act towards women out of hatred, any more than Angel does, or
Wood, or Xander or Wesely. His acts against Harmony - seemed to
me to have more to do with how incredibly annoying she was than
that she was a woman, his date at the wedding - he was not overly
cruel to and had to with his feelings and frustration with Buffy,
not women, his sex with Anya had nothing to do with hate or women
just with the desire for solace, and dealing demon eggs - nope
nothing to do with women, and the biting woman on the street?
I got the feeling he would have gone after the first treat he
saw and he had to talk himself into it. And the AR scene? A) I
never got the intent to rape or hurt Buffy, he seemed out of control,
and B) It was about Buffy not women, he never said anything that
suggested otherwise. IF he'd been in love with xander - he'd have
done the same thing. Again, Xander, Wood, Angel and Wes I'd like
to point out have done some horrible things which could also be
defined as misogynistic but are really more to do with the person.
Xander - the Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered spell - had to
do with Cordelia, his
attitude towards Buffy at different points in S1, S2, S3 - had
to do with Buffy.
How he treated Anya as beneath him, his leaving of Anya - all
to do with Anya and his frustration with himself.
How he treats Cordelia. (You could argue these are misogynistic
acts - they aren't, of course, they are human acts.)
The character in Taming of the Shrew - Kate, continuously screams
she hates men - yet she is hardly a misanthropoist.
She is just frustrated with the men around her, her father,
her suitors who seem to prefer her sister.
Andrew - my god the horrible acts this guy does, yet I wouldn't
call him misogynistic. More guillible, follow the leader. Yet
his attitude towards KAtrina and Buffy and Willow in S6 - seems
to be, it's not it's all about Warren
for Andrew.
Wood - patronizing, very manipulative, often belittling,
pushing women to build himself up -- none of this is misogynistic
- it's about Nikki and his fears regarding his loss of her.
Angelus - patronizing, belittling, rapist, cruel
I'm sorry, I think people are using the term misogynist way too
broadly. As short-hand to describe violent acts as opposed to
doing the work to understand why they are done that they come
from the characters own history and difficulties and aren't so
easily described. Doing so belittles the story, the viewer, and
the characters, not to mention the acts in my opinion. Spike's
attempted rape of Buffy did not come from hatred of women or misogyny
any more than Wes' chaining of Justin in his closet did or Angelus'
rape of the gypsey girl and rape of Dru or Angel's decision to
roughly have sex with Darla. Those acts had to do with the individual
person, they had to do with the situation. To say they are misogynistic
acts, removes us and the writer from the responsibility of understanding
them
and growing from them and learning not to do it again. It takes
away the need to understand why. It's a bit like saying - he's
a serial killer - that's why he killed. OR you are just insane.
Misogyny isn't about a person or situation. IT is about well hatred
in general. IT means hatred of women. It has nothing to do with
the person, it is an act against her gender. Sort of like racism
- which is an act against the race. The Holocaust for instance
had nothing to do with individuals - it was a horrendous act of
hatred against people based on religion, race, sexual identity.
(Jews, Gypsies, and Homosexuals). Same with slavery in US - act
against a race.
Billy - yes that is misogyny and how the characters acted in that
episode equaled misogyny - Wes went after Fred, not because she
was Fred but because she was a woman. It wasn't personal it was
because of her gender. The fact Fred was Fred - was why Wes hated
himself during it. But he would have gone after any woman under
Billy's influence.
Caleb - he went after women because he hated women, he didn't
see them as individuals. He hated them just because they were
women. Warren was a watered down version of this.
Willow in S6 went after individuals not all men in general.
But Anyanka was a misanthropist or whatever hatred of men is -
she went specifically after all men in general. She hated men.
That was her calling to hurt men. They make a point of that. They
never make that point with Spike and it wouldn't have been hard
to make it - if they wanted to, they do it with Anya, they do
it with Warren, they do it with Caleb.
So I think if you say Spike's acts were misogynistic?
Then you end up saying Xander's, Angel's, Wes's, Wood's were too.
Just as you say Willow's and Buffy's were misanthropic. And to
put such a broad lable on something belittles and trivalizes the
individual acts in my opinion.
Almost excuses them through the generalization.
I am beginning to hate generalizations. I dislike the human tendency
to categorize things, throwing them in boxes and lable them like
fruit. Saying okay if I can give that a name and file it, I can
control it - a la the Initiative. Instead of doing the work and
figuring out the context. Some things can't be easily filed away
or labeled and shouldn't be. Each act is separate and based on
the context and situation. Labeling and filing it under some generalized
category in my opinion at least is well...a bit easy, a cop-out,
a way of not dealing with the act itself. Oh he did that to me
because he hates women. No, he did that to me b/c we entered an
mutually abusive sexual relationship where I gave him mixed signals
and he was a soulless vampire who doesn't get certain concepts
and has issues. Some based on things I don't know about. This
isn't my fault - his issues are based on what he is, but at the
same time getting involved in an abusive relationship with a vampire
was probably a bad idea. Just as stating that Angelus' actions
to Buffy in S2 aren't the result of misogyny or hatred of humanity,
but Angelus' issues which have more to do with Buffy herself.
To put it under the broad lable of misogyny
is in a way sluffing it off, just as saying oh, he did this because
he was a vampire. No, he did it based on what happened - not all
vampires fall in love with slayers and want to possess them, most
run away when given the opportunity or just fight to the death.
I think we do ourselves and others a huge disservice when we rely
too heavily on broad lables and categories to explain violent
or non-violent actions. Also, I'd like to add that by throwing
all acts that appear misogynistic or racist on surface in these
categories, we trivalize the ones that actually were misogynistic
or racist. I think it is important to keep the distinction between
acts against a whole race of people such as the Holocaust and
acts against an individual who just happens to be Jewish, but
would have been mugged regardless. Or acts against a whole gender
such as some of the early laws regarding women as property and
acts against an individual who just happens to be a woman but
would have been attacked because she's Buffy and they had relationship.
The distinction is too important to cast aside so haphazardly
in my opinion.
Oh this isn't saying that you said this or meant any of this,
Ms. Giles, I only responded here - b/c I liked your post and felt
it was as good a place as any. So please do not take any of this
as a "direct" response to your thoughts - so much as
a response to the idea that Spike's acts should be described in
this manner.
sk
[> [> [> I wasn't
sure myself about Spike -- MsGiles, 04:50:31 07/16/03 Wed
Sexist maybe, in a fairly conventional sort of way (putter on
pedestal of some women, dismisser of others variety), but I admit
I don't see systematic misogyny. Trying to think why Joss would
have said it though, that was about as much as I could turn up.
I was wondering if a case could be made for Buffy being the misogynistic
one, given the gender-reversing themes Buffy's strength and dominance
gets us into. Buffy's perhaps more something..ist (monsterist?)
in her treatment of Spike, constantly trying to depersonalise
him, identify him as an generic evil soul-less monster so she
can dismiss him. Beating him up to try and get rid of her mixed
feelings. Because he represents the monster in her, more than
because of who he is. Complicated because Buff's job is to be
a monsterist, but if she starts enjoying Slaying too much, she
loses something, some humanity. Like Faith, slaying with extra
viciousness when she's feeling down.
[> [> [> [> PS,
not really suggesting that last bit -- MsGiles, 06:39:56
07/16/03 Wed
at all seriously as Joss's intention, just following a train of
thought. I take all your points BTW.
Reading over posts, the theory that Joss mind went 'act of violence
against a woman =misogyny' seems possible to me, also not discounting
fresne's subversive thoughts on spin..
None of the characters on BtVS personify misogyny in the way Billy
does, although there are plenty of bits of chauvinism/sexism (from
early Cordelia among others)
[> [> [> JW and his
definitions of feminism and misogyny -- curious, 12:26:39
07/16/03 Wed
As usual, I agree with you s'kat - and share your irritation with
those college male ultra-feminists or rather well intentioned
but ultimately patronizing guys who thought they understood feminism
in college. I think JW has very different definitions of feminism
and misogyny than I do - and some of his "radical feminism"
is colored by a certain amount of male guilt. I always snort when
I hear that he claims to be a "radical feminist" - a
mainstream, bourgeois feminist -sure - but RADICAL?
I was, am and always will be a feminist - but what that means
to me has changed quite a bit over the years. It has gotten deeper
and more nuanced than it was in the days when I religiously marched
in "Take Back the Night" events. In the meantime, I
had real world work experiences, had kids, read more widely, etc.
- and feminist theory has changed and gotten more sophisticated
than it was in the '70's and '80's. I look back at some of those
arguments I had in college and see them as thinly veiled "Girls
are better than boys." arguments. For me, women don't want
or need special protection and they don't need to be placed on
a pedestal of moral virtue. People should be treated as individuals
- regardless of their gender. Some versions of "feminism"
that make generalizations about the experiences of all women are
just as sexist as the patriarchal views they claim to be fighting.
But that's another essay.
I was thinking about the girl/boy socialization thing while I
was trapped in the car with my nine year old daughter and her
same age male buddy on the way to an incredibly cheesy tourist
trap town. Her friend's mother is my best friend and these kids
were both raised by strong feminist homes that try to be gender
neutral and respectful of men and women. These kids have been
best friends - literally since birth. We gave our boys dolls and
our daughters trucks. We tried. We really did all those things
that our Women Studies classes said would make our children act
differently than the kids we grew up with. And they did to a certain
extent - but our boys crashed the dolls and the girls nurtured
and talked to the trucks. Alright - it wasn't that black and white
as that. We both have great kids who are respectful of each other
but it was shocking for us to find that some of this stuff was
hard wired.
The thing that struck me yesterday was - that both of these kids
have somehow internalized that it in not OK for boys to hit girls.
I'm not sure where that came from - explicitly. (Of course
we all try to teach our kids that it is not OK to hit anybody
but I am exploring this particular hitting taboo.) It came
up when the two kids were sitting together on a boat trip and
we came to a part of the river called "Lover's Lane"
and you were supposed to kiss or hug the person you were sitting
next to. Well, these kids are NINE and were horrified so they
moved as far apart as they could and spent the rest of the trip
poking and thwacking each other - and then forgetting themselves
and holding hands like they always have since they were toddlers.
Then the boy said "You can smack me as much as you want as
long as it isn't with your lips." On the one hand, I thought
that was incredibly sweet, clever and funny. This kid is very
kind, gentle and considerate - but more than a little squirrelly.
But later it made me stop and think. In the context of what the
kids were doing - he was saying - "I know it's not OK for
me to hit you because boys don't hit girls - but I don't mind
if you hit me because it is fun and it doesn't hurt me."
The kissing part goes without saying - nine year olds think kissing
is gross.
Then I thought about my sweet brother and a lot of men I know
who were socialized the same way - that it is never OK to hit
or hurt a woman and any man who would is very, very bad - even
if they are defending themselves against a strong woman with a
frying pan or a baseball bat. I remember arguing that this attitude
could be considered sexist because it is a generalization and
it assumes that no woman can take care of herself physically -
but I think I failed to realize how deeply entrenched and visceral
this feeling is in many men and some women. It helps me see how
some people hate Spike - and why I find that, to a certain extent,
Spike's violence toward Buffy (and Dru for that matter) is VERY
specific and is, in a way, a sign of respect - that she is his
equal. His violence toward other women can be considered misogynistic
but - I agree with s'kat - you would have to apply that label
to almost all the men in the show too.
I am also rethinking that the quote may have been taken out of
context, had a different emphasis than intended, etc. - especially
in light of the S7 quote.
Hope that makes sense.
[> [> [> [> Modification
-- curious, 14:20:00 07/16/03 Wed
I've decided that I don't really know what JW meant by the use
of the word misogyny and am somewhat confused about how he views
feminism, patriarchy and sexism - so I take back I think JW
has very different definitions of feminism and misogyny than I
do because I am not sure what he meant or how he defines feminism.
But the rambly stuff about men having strong, deeply ingrained
feelings about hitting women - that stuff I feel is important
in helping me understand some people's reaction to Spike.
In re-reading the quote that generated this post - I'm not sure
that JW was simply calling Spike a misogynist. I think he was
saying that B/S was about exploring dominance, control and misogyny
- in general. That they both had those issues. So did Willow.
ahh. Now I feel better about S6 again.
[> [> [> [> [>
Agreed. On all points. -- s'kat, 15:04:00 07/16/03 Wed
In re-reading the quote that generated this post - I'm not
sure that JW was simply calling Spike a misogynist. I think he
was saying that B/S was about exploring dominance, control and
misogyny - in general. That they both had those issues. So did
Willow.
ahh. Now I feel better about S6 again.
Felt the same way, especially after reading S7 quote.
I honestly think some of us misinterpreted the quote. I admit
misogyny is a hot button for me, due to the continued misuse of
the word by some fans. Hence my reasons for the posts.
I also still remain foggy on Joss and feminism. But hey, I don't
have to understand the man, to appreciate his creative out-put.
;-)
[> [> [> Re: My Difficulty
with this use of the term misogyny -- Malandanza, 19:02:07
07/16/03 Wed
"I would caution against defining misogyny so broadly.
Misogyny means hatred of women. Acts committed because you hate
women, the person does not matter - you are acting against the
woman, she could be a nondescript person on the street - or a
transvestite, as long as it walks, talks and acts like a woman
- you will hurt it."
I think you've defined misogyny too narrowly. My dictionary says
"Hatred of women, especially by a man" and that's it.
It doesn't say hatred of all women, children, nuns, and grandmothers
included nor does it mention "acts
committed because you hate women". It would be perfectly
consistent with the dictionary definition for a person who did
hate women, but never acted on the hatred, to be defined as a
misogynist. Billy would fail the misogyny test by your standards
as he never committed acts against women -- he just enjoyed watching
others commit the acts.
Neither does the dictionary require that misogyny be the exclusive
or overriding personality trait. Certainly I've seen examples
of people (both real and on screen) where people are both misogynistic
and racist. A person can be a misogynist and still have hobbies
-- he need not eat, drink, and sleep misogyny. It's even possible
that misogyny isn't the dominant trait. The misogynist might even
have a few positive traits.
Your transvestite example would also exclude Caleb as a candidate
for misogyny -- after all, the First only appeared to him as women,
usually Buffy. Caleb deferred to the First's judgment, he chatted
amiably with her (she was the closest thing he had to a friend),
he played his disturbing games with her, he did her bidding. And
yet I'm comfortable saying Caleb is a misogynist simply because
he kills women for pleasure and gets a sort of sexual charge from
remembering his past kills.
And so, too, for pre-soul Spike. He defined himself by his ability
to murder powerful women (women, I might add, who symbolize female
empowerment in the Buffyverse) and he gets a sexual thrill from
remembering his kills. Yeah, he can talk a good game when he's
pretending to be Heathcliff, but in his candid moments he sounds
more like Caleb or Warren.
Finally, I'd point out that while dictionaries are helpful, the
real meaning of words, their connotations, are found in their
use. Just as an example, consider the following sentences:
I met a beautiful woman last night in a bar.
My three year old niece is a beautiful child.
I watched a beautiful sunset the other day.
Mother Theresa was a beautiful person.
Now, you can look up beautiful and find it means "pleasing
to the senses, especially sight", but these four uses of
beautiful each have slightly different meanings. Google misogyny
and definition and see how many different meanings of the word
you come up with -- and I'm pretty certain you won't find very
many definitions of misogyny as narrowly defined as you've defined
it.
[> Words and why --
fresne, 07:31:04 07/15/03 Tue
Actually, what I find interesting is that Joss would make this
comment now.
We have the Casting Spoiler that everyone in the World knows and
has turned into a cast recording with T-shirt. There is AtS, which
was on the bubble last year despite a tour de force of a whirling
season. There is the undoubted effort to seduce those fans who
watched BtVS, but never really got into AtS.
So, you're bubbling and you're seducing and you've got this carrot
with which to carry out your seducing. What a very interesting
thing to say under the circumstances.
After all at this point S6 is so yesterday. AtS S5 is tomorrow.
Heck, it's next minute and it's the only child left in the house.
I'd be curious to hear Joss tease that statement out into a nice
ten page essay or so. Well, you know how we are here. I need to
hear him articulate the meaning of each word, for him. The slice
and dice of it. Words, as we sometimes play here, mean different
things to different people. For all the a potato is a potato and
a tomato is a tomato. Each carrying past associations, flavors,
context, definition.
Anyway, I'd be interested to know Joss' thinking behind making
that statement now, there, why. He deals in precision of words.
What is he trying to do, not just in context of S6, but here and
now? The next minute.
[> [> I like how you
put that. We await the next episode of 'Joss'. -- WickedBuffy,
08:21:59 07/15/03 Tue
[> [> I think --
lunasea, 09:48:48 07/15/03 Tue
He seems to be making various "and this is what season 6
was" and "this was what season 7 was" in relation
to a certain relationship lately. I think they ran into the same
problem with WKCS that they did with Cordy. Only so many characters
on a show. If you need one for the lead to develop a romantic
relationship with, you tend to choose from that list. There is
already a relationship to build on there. Doesn't matter if that
new relationship pretty much steps all over the past. Past is
past. Let's move on.
Joss needs two sides of his mouth to talk out of for that relationship.
S6 was unhealthy and all the other negative words. S7 was healthy
and all the other positive words. Both need to be understood in
order to get ready for WKCS's appearance. You can't just look
at season 7 and say "I told you it was a good thing."
It wasn't. You can't just look at season 6 and hold tight to the
idea that it was a bad thing.
Both seasons have to examined separately. The soul is THAT important
in the Buffyverse. That is why we heard about it over and over
and over again. ME wanted us to forget that this was the character
that he was season 2-6. They needed us to. Not sure they did such
a good job with that, but they didn't have much of a choice. Xander
was needed for the story with Anya. Andrew didn't have a real
history with Buffy and Giles would be just creepy.
That's just how I see it.
[> [> good point, not
sure about all this seducing with carrots tho' ;-] -- MsGiles,
06:21:32 07/16/03 Wed
[> A brief note about ME
-- Diana (because we could all use a little less Lunasea), 09:06:56
07/15/03 Tue
This past week taught me something about myself. I love the story
that Joss has been telling for the past 7 years, both on Buffy
the Vampire Slayer and on Angel. One universe and really one story.
That may come as no surprise to anyone here, seeing as for the
past 6 months I have written extensively about it, but I don't
mean that I enjoy the show or even think about it. I mean love,
truly love.
Joss has said that the story is god. In many ways, his story have
become my god. It has managed to touch me in places that I needed
to have touched. I love it and I tend to be protective of it.
Not the characters, the STORY. I am only protective of the image
of the characters as is required to tell the story.
I will admit that I think that a lot of the perceptions and comments
about certain characters are built more on what sort of character
people want to see than the needs of the narrative. The story
is often denigrated because certain characters have to do certain
actions for the good of the story and people don't like this.
Thing is, the characters serve the story. The story doesn't serve
the characters. The STORY is god, not the characters.
Then there are the writers, especially the creator of the story,
my prophet with his lesser prophets. The story is told through
their words (and the images created by the director and actors).
If all you are interested in is your own perception, if your perception
is God and the words of no one else matters, then why read interviews
and post on a message board? Why let what the writers or other
people say upset you?
I know why I come here. I like seeing layers of the show that
I missed. I'll admit that on first viewing I completely missed
the lesbian subtext of "Bad Girls." Learning about this
layer makes the show even better. I share my layers in the hope
that someone may show me another layer that I may have missed
or my layer may trigger discussion of another.
I know why I read interviews. I like seeing what the writers are
trying to do. About 99.9% of the time, I completely agree with
what they say. I would say they are doing a good job of conveying
their story, if I see what they intend for me to. Every once and
a while, most recently why Spike went to Africa, I see something
different. I can either hold tight to my perception or I can adjust
to what the writer said (especially if that writer is Joss).
As I'm sure people here know, I am not one to give up my opinions
lightly. I tend to be very opinionated and can strongly defend
those opinions. However, when it comes to this story, I have no
problem dropping my opinion for Joss'. The reason: what comes
after is built on HIS opinion, NOT mine. I am not so self-centered
to think that my perception is always right. It is colored by
me and I'm not Joss. If I hold tight to my own opinion, what follows
often makes little, if any sense. At the very least, it won't
be interpreted in the context of the story. The story I am now
seeing differs from the story Joss is telling. I see interviews
as a way to correct this, so that I am on the same page as Joss.
If it isn't important, chances are he doesn't speak about it.
If my interpretation fits in with what he says, then it is fine.
It is like fan fiction. There is plenty of room in his universe
to write stories that don't step on canon, on the story. We have
all been Jossed before, but at the time of the story, we fit into
the story that Joss is telling. If I held tight to what I wrote,
what I wanted, what he writes makes no sense. In a lot of ways,
our interpretations are like this. They are snowballs. We think
we see one thing, something the writer may not have intended.
Then they write the character doing something built on what THEY
intended, not what we saw. We still hold fast to what saw, so
that messes with how we see the new action and so on and so on,
until what we see is vastly different from the story the writers
are trying to tell.
It really depends on what you want to get out of it. I love the
story that Joss has been telling. I want to know that story. I
am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and go with what
he says is that story. It is an imperfect medium and often does
need a few tweaks here and there. You'll have to pardon me if
I tend to get a bit overzealous defending that story.
I really love it.
[> [> Re: A brief note
about ME -- Rina, 11:53:07 07/15/03 Tue
"Then there are the writers, especially the creator of the
story, my prophet with his lesser prophets. The story is told
through their words (and the images created by the director and
actors). If all you are interested in is your own perception,
if your perception is God and the words of no one else matters,
then why read interviews and post on a message board? Why let
what the writers or other people say upset you?"
I understand what you're saying. But if what the writer is saying
something about the story that simply doesn't mesh with what you
feel, why bother to blindly accept the writer's view of what it
was about? Yes, I have no problem with reading the writer or creator's
viewpoint of the story and what he or she is trying to say. I
say read it, think about it and if you finally agree, fine. If
you still find it hard to agree with the writer, then don't. There
is no law that you have to do one thing or the other.
[> [> Re: A brief note
about ME -- sdev, 14:22:58 07/15/03 Tue
The story JW is telling is on the screen not in the interview.
The interview is like what we are doing here. Obviously you can
weight it differently because it is coming from the author but
it doesn't replace the actual work. On the author's description
of his work-- you can analyze it, agree or disagree, you can find
it illuminating or crap, you can feel it is retconning, you can
even find it has its own subtext. But it is not canon. You read
it, or not, because it may or may not add something to your experience
and understanding, as you said.
The same artist that is brilliant in his art is not necessarily
brilliant in didactic or analytic ability. Sometimes artist fall
flat on their faces in that medium. It is not disrespecting them
to feel that way. You respect them by commending their work not
their opinions about their work. My guess is most if not all artists
would prefer you to value their work not their words on their
work.
[> [> [> The story
Joss is telling is in his heart -- Diana (of the clubbed una
seals), 15:53:54 07/15/03 Tue
It may come across on the screen, or it may not for various reasons.
Both the interviews and what we see on TV (and in the comics and
eventually in the movies) is all from the same source. THAT source
contains the story I am interested in.
It doesn't replace the work, but since it and the work comes from
the same source, figuring out how them mesh tells the story that
I am looking at.
If what the author says isn't canon, than nothing beyond "Buffy
said X" is canon.
[> [> [> Re: A brief
note about ME -- sdev, 09:10:54 07/16/03 Wed
Having expressed a cynical view about spin, I also wanted to mention
a kinder view. The artist's relationship to his work and characters
can be like that of a parent to a child--overprotective and reluctant
to let go. Some writers and artists never let go. Like a parent,
a writer may sometimes feel the need to keep fixing things. A
repeated need to comment and point out what the viewer is supposed
to see after the fact may be indicative of that. And though a
parent tries to shape a child, in the end it has it's own life
[> [> [> [> The
thing about children -- lunasea, 11:04:43 07/16/03 Wed
I almost used the analogy myself. One thing to add, a child is
a living sentient being. I tell people that my children don't
belong to me; I am just borrowing them until they can take full
possession of themselves. A work of art isn't just our child.
It is us. When we see it denigrated or misunderstood, that goes
to a very deep place inside of us. We aren't protecting our child,
so much as ourself and our need to be understood.
Joss is very brave for putting himself out there like that. When
people say things that to him are completely against what he is
trying to say, I don't blame him for getting upset. Heck, I admitted
that I get upset when people say things that to me are completely
against what he is trying to say, and I'm not him.
I think lately, he is just trying to set up WKCS better. All this
crap because of one misunderstood dream. It snowballed from there
and this sucker is so big that it can even survive the firey heat
of hell. I don't blame him for wanting to take a blow torch to
it every chance he gets.
If anything, I feel bad for him that he has to do this.
[> Sat on my hands long
enough -- Diana (who has had enough of this lunasea), 13:57:08
07/16/03 Wed
Mysogynist. Interesting word choice. Now is the part where the
people that didn't like Spuffy say "I told you so,"
and the people that did say "Joss doesn't know what he is
talking about." That is simplifying things a bit, but then
again that is EXACTLY what this thread is doing, taking a SINGLE
word out of context.
Joss is a master wordsmith. He can convey in a single line, what
it takes me an entire conversation (or if I am lucky, a paragraph)
to do. There is a flow to his scripts that is amazing. Even in
interviews he undercuts what he is saying. Perhaps it is this
sense of humor that is strange and off-putting for some. It is
one thing for a TV character to talk that way, but for a flesh
and blood writer to do so may be hard for some to take.
What does Joss say? "At the same time there is a darker side
of power and Buffy's guilt about her power and her feeling about
coming back to the world. And, her getting into a genuinely unhealthy
relationship with Spike that was all about dominance, control,
and deep misogyny. How lost did we get? Well, our villain turned
out to be Willow."
What is Joss trying to say? His intent was to use her relationship
with Spike to show something specific. I think Marti nailed it
in "Wrecked." She is almost as good at Joss at saying
something with just one line. Then something happened. Buffy was
"Gone." She just wasn't there any more and they didn't
know what to do.
What an incredibly dark place to take Buffy to. How to do this
without going all "9 1/2 weeks"? I think they would
have done better to do something that would have invoked that
classic movie about "dominance, control, and deep misogyny."
As Joss admits, "How lost did we get?" They lost Buffy
and they lost the story.
A similar thing happened season 4. These two seasons tend to be
rated at or near the bottom in rankings. Some make a lot of allowances
for season 6 because of the theme and rank it higher. I think
season 6 was their most ambitious season and tend to make allowances
because of this. Marti's job is to make sure that Joss' head doesn't
explode. Who makes sure hers doesn't?
Was Spike a mysogynist? That question completely misses the point.
This debate completely misses the point. So does the whole authorial
intent v supremecy of the audience. That isn't what Joss is saying.
He agrees that what he intended didn't come across clearly on
the screen. He admits that they got lost.
So the debate should be about how season 6 got lost. Why did it
get lost? How could they have kept the focus on control, dominance
and deep mysogyny? How did Willow end up becoming the villain
in THIS particular season?
Buffy is representative of WOMAN. Buffy's self hatred and Dark
Willow's jealousy of her are as much an example of mysogyny as
Spike in "Dead Things." Joss did NOT specifically say
that Spike was a mysogynist. He said that the relationship was
about deep mysogyny (control and dominance as well). Joss' art
form is words. He chooses his words carefully. I think we should
be looking at the flow of those words rather than seeing red at
a particular one.
Just me, though.
[> [> I actually agree
with most of this -- curious, 14:07:10 07/16/03 Wed
Especially this:
Buffy is representative of WOMAN. Buffy's self hatred and Dark
Willow's jealousy of her are as much an example of mysogyny as
Spike in "Dead Things." Joss did NOT specifically say
that Spike was a mysogynist. He said that the relationship was
about deep mysogyny (control and dominance as well). Joss' art
form is words. He chooses his words carefully. I think we should
be looking at the flow of those words rather than seeing red at
a particular one.
I think he was talking about S6 exploring mysogyny,control and
dominance in general - rather than calling Spike a misogynist.
That's how I read that line too. I also think he confused the
hell out of a lot of people in S6.
I think we should be
works much better than telling us how to think. Thanks Diana.
[> [> Okay - let's refocus
the debate then? -- s'kat, 15:43:05 07/16/03 Wed
It's certainly not too late to refocus it. Perhaps even have a
whole new post so this one doesn't eat everything in site, like
it's doing now ;-)
So the debate should be about how season 6 got lost. Why did
it get lost? How could they have kept the focus on control, dominance
and deep mysogyny? How did Willow end up becoming the villain
in THIS particular season?
I actually like these topics better. Although I did enjoy discussing
authorial intent and misogyny, it helped me figure out what the
quote meant and how I felt and considered these terms, I don't
know about anyone else, but I figure out stuff through my writing.
So do you want to post a whole new thread on the topic or should
I?
[> [> [> I'll do it
-- curious, 16:01:00 07/16/03 Wed
Maybe Diana could repost this post in the new thread at the top
of the board. I think this thread had gotten pretty ratty.
[> Re: Joss interview on
Buffy season 6 in Cinefantastique (CFQ) magazine -- RJA, 16:03:46
07/16/03 Wed
As a mainly lurker here I'm hestitant to put forward my thoughts,
especially since its about such a very sensitive subject. Some
great thoughts in this thread though.
On the misogyny issue though, I think perhaps that if Joss did
mean that the relationship dealt with it, he could be referring
to how it was handled in Seeing Red, and more specifically, they
were looking at the human weakness that could lead to that, and
in a wider sense that went futher than the issues of misogny.
I viewed Warren in many ways as a counterpoint to Spike (not all
the time, but where their paths crossed he seemed to be). The
first distinction came with their respective Bots. Warren created
one because he couldnt get girls - April existed as his example
of the perfect woman, which essentially was a subservient sex
machine. Whereas Spike's Bot wasnt a subsitute for women, but
instead a way of being closer to a particular woman he couldnt
have. Whereas April was designed to eradicate the flaws and complexities
of women, Spike had to settle for something that didnt have those
flaws - and it was settling because he wanted the real thing.
So thats the first comparison the show made, IMO.
Carrying it to the end, I think another parallel was made with
Warren and Spike in Seeing Red. I think both their actions came
from the same place, the same spark. And that was fear, desparation,
and an inability to be in control.
Warren ended up shooting Buffy because she represented everything
that was wrong in his life, and as he saw it, women were to blame
for everything that went wrong. And as the most powerful woman,
the Slayer had to be taken down. BY feeling so powerless and emasculated,
he had to take it out on the person who symbolised those feelings
of emasculation. And as subsequent episodes showed, he had no
remorse.
And I think Spike's actions came from a similar place. That fear
- his life was shot, he no longer knew his place in it, and his
relationship with Buffy made him even less sure of that. I think
part of his actions in SR was a desperate attempt to put some
control back into that relationship - not to control Buffy, but
a desperate need to put some control back into his life.
Thats the difference as I see it. Whereas Warren blamed his failures
on women, and saw Buffy personifying this, Spike didnt have that
same opinion of women. Instead of blaming Buffy for all that was
wrong, he turned it onto himself. He was to blame, and he made
a change because of it. He took responsibility out of that moment
of desperation, whereas Warren didnt.
And there is also the connection with Willow. Magic as a means
to control, which also happens in Seeing Red. But thats maybe
subject for another post.
So I guess I have no real idea of what Joss meant by his above
comments, other than that this particular episode contained an
examination of the spark of what can make good people go bad,
and what can be the basis of wrongs in society.
Anyway, be kind :-)
[> [> Great post!
-- curious, 17:00:20 07/16/03 Wed
I agree with a lot of your points. I'm a little too burnt out
to respond right now. ;-)
Would you like to repost this in the new thread at the top of
the board? I think you add some new thoughts that haven't been
mentioned yet.
[> [> [> Thanks, and
okay then :-) -- RJA, 17:02:45 07/16/03 Wed
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