January 2004 posts


Previous January 2004  

More January 2004
Jasmine vs. The First (Spoilers of Buffy Seasons 5 & 7 / Angel Seasons 2 - 4 ... sorta) -- Mighty Mouse, 06:01:52 01/05/04 Mon

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, or not, I haven't really had a chance to skim the board's prior messages, but anywhere, here goes:

Over the holidays, I've watched the ending episode arcs from both Angel & Buffy, and recalled the theories going around (especially with the news that Angel would appear in the ending eps of Buffy) about the possible relationship between Jasmine and the First. In the end, it didn't seem at all that there was any connection. However, looking back, I've begun to wonder if Joss didn't have the idea in his head that there was an indirect connection between them. Namely, as opposing forces.

Jasmine, while being "evil" in the idea that she took away all free will for humanity, was merely trying to do the good thing: make peace on Earth. She after all, was a former Power that Be (or Was, if you will), and theoretically, on the side of Good. However, that doesn't mean everything she was to do was good. The path to hell IS paved with good intentions.

However, while her reasons are known for what she did, the question is - why then? We'll ignore the obvious answer of - "Well, because the writers chose to go that way this season" and think too much more into it. Heh.

Certainly, Jasmine (or whatever her name really is) could have tried to bring peace to Earth at any other time in existence, there really was no shortage of vampires, and Angel could have been more easily manipulated at any earlier point. My theory is that she was responding to the rise of the First Evil, and its plan to throw the balance of Good & Evil by overrunning the planet with its manipulations and its Turok-Han.

Just because the Scooby Gang was initially oblivious to the First Evil's growing strength (all they were gathering during the first half of Season Seven was "From beneath you, it devours"), doesn't mean the rest of the Universe was. Obviously the First Evil's machinations were sending ripples through the supernatural plane (as most demons seemed to be aware that something was up), and had been for some time.

One might counter that the First Evil seemed to only gear up around 2002-2003 (aka Season Seven), while Jasmine had been planning out her ideas since 2000-2001 (with Angel getting together with Darla and impregnating her). However, we don't entirely have a proper idea of how the Powers that Be or other "higher beings" understand time, or how far they can see things.

It was revealed (although never elaborated on) in Season Seven, that the First Evil pretty much got it's plan rolling when Buffy died not once, but twice (probably more around the second time) and returned, thus disrupting the order of things. And most higher beings (and supernaturally precognitive) were predicting Buffy's next death well before it happened ("Death is your gift"). The knowledge that Buffy would die again (and most likely rise again), would come with the acknowledgement that this would probably throw the order of things, and allow for the First Evil to start actually throwing it's metaphysical weight around. Hence, Jasmine set her plans in motion to counter-act the First Evil's.

After all, if the Slayer line was destroyed and the First Evil was able to unleash the Turok-Han upon Earth, might there be a better chance for humanity if they were all united (and not running around in chaos like chickens with their heads cut off) against this common foe? The Powers That Be (or just Jasmine herself) could have assumed that the Slayer(s) wouldn't be much of a threat to the First Evil in the end. Obviously they (or just Jasmine) were wrong on both accounts. Buffy 'n co. managed to take down the First Evil (well, not really take down, but throw off it's ultimate plans) in the end, while Angel and his group managed to prevent Jasmine's idea of "world peace."

Just my two cents of an idea.

Replies:

[> Re: Jasmine vs. The First (Spoilers of Buffy Seasons 5 & 7 / Angel Seasons 2 - 4 ... sorta) -- David, 12:02:55 01/05/04 Mon

I like your statement since i agree with you about Jasmine knowing about the FE. I always wonderedwhat would happen if Jasmine and the FE clashed or who would win. I kinda would've thought Jasmine should've gone to Sunnydale first and helped out Buffy but i think she was going to unite the world to help confront the FE's army. It also might be why she needed Angel & his friends since they were strong and would be able to train humans to kill uber vamps. She also may have had the beast take out W&H because they could've been a powerful ally for the FE

[> [> Re: Wolfram and Hart and the First Evil -- Ray, 13:13:57 01/05/04 Mon

I think Wolfram and Hart was already and ally of the First Evil. Or maybe the First Evil was a Senior Partner. In Reprise, Holland Manners tells Angel that they exist in the hearts and minds of everyone on Earth. And later, the First Evil tells Buffy the same thing about itself.
The wording is too similar to be a coincidence.

[> [> [> Re: Wolfram and Hart and the First Evil -- Tim Thomason, 17:09:29 01/05/04 Mon

> I think Wolfram and Hart was already an ally of the_____ > First Evil.

I believe that the Senior Partners and the First Evil are two different entities and that S7 proved that. Here's a chart I made that shows that.

_______________Good (order) (Jasmine, PTB's)
_________________________|
____good (chaos) (AI, SG)------- evil (order) (W&H)
_________________________|
_______________Evil (chaos) (FE, demons)

I think that each "faction" (Good, good, evil, Evil) sees themselves as fighting for what's "right," and looks out for their best interest.

Tim Thomason
Some guy you probably will never hear from again

[> This battle already took place -- JBone, 16:56:44 01/06/04 Tue

http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/wiccan.html

It's towards the end of the page, so scroll on down.
For Masq--a little bit of Connor in the night. (VK interview-let; minor spoilers) -- cjl, 13:07:15 01/05/04 Mon

In the last two seasons of "Angel", our lead character had a son played by young pin-up actor Vincent Kartheiser. The guy didnÕt survive the show rejuvenation though earlier this year, the character in fact has been made to forget his true heritage. Will he ever return though? That was the question posed to Vincent in the showÕs official mag.

Question: Would you like to come back from time to time?

VK: Yes. ItÕs sensitive question, but I would love to come back. To tell you honestly, this is the best group of people IÕve ever worked with. IÕm saying ÕpeopleÕ - as artists, theyÕre very accomplished and as people their set was so was so pleasant and I had so much fun, I really made some good friends there. It was nice for me to have that stability in life. IÕm really going to miss that, and IÕm really going to miss some of the opportunities that it gave me too, to stretch and to try some things. But IÕm also looking forward to going on and trying new stuff. I never really wanted to do five seasons, so one season I feel was nice. And hopefully they do want me back. Tim [Minear] spoke to me about bringing me back for a few episodes, and I would definitely do that.

Question: We donÕt know how heÕll end up with his new family....

VK: Yeah, hopefully weÕll see that arc. ThatÕs the thing with Angel: I could presume everything I wanted, and chances are itÕs going to be totally different than that.

Kartheiser has been keeping busy, having worked on a new film entitled "Dandelion" which has an official site which is now active.

Replies:

[> Dandelion is supposed to be premiering this month at the Sundance film festival -- Masq, 13:47:51 01/05/04 Mon

Oh, and AtS spoilers below
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
If you go to VK's imdb entry, it says he was part of the AtS cast from 2002-2003, and then again in 2004. Not sure what that means!
Should Spike change his look? -- Jaelvis, 15:31:00 01/05/04 Mon

I spent most of my Christmas and New Year's vacation time re-watching Buffy seasons 3 & 5. As much as I love Spike and the way he looks, I'm starting to think that Spike really needs to change his image. In Fool for Love, we see him in his punk outfit fighting Nikki, the slayer from NYC in 1977. That was 26 years ago! He needs to get with the times. I think that he needs to do this as a reflection of how he has grown and developed into a different person than he was in 1977. He should start wearing more business appropriate attire. He is/will be working for Wolfram and Hart so that would be a good reason to change. I assuming he will work there, anyway. He was asking for an office in the last ep afterall. He would look great in suits or even in business casual attire that Angel wears. AND he needs to stop bleaching his hair. AND get rid of the coat.

I know some people will say that ME shouldn't change the way he looks or that it viewers won't like him as much. I think it would be a welcome change and would make his character more 3-dimensional and less of a caricature. I think one of the Fang Gang should encourage this transformation. Maybe Gunn could do it or Lorne or even Harmony. I just think that as a person/character, he has progressed to a point that he doesn't need the "costume" to feel like the big bad anymore.

I don't think a change of image is out of character for Spike since he obviously changed to his current look during the late 70's. Has he always changed with the times? How was he dressing from 1880 to 1977? I assume he has had many different looks in that time period. Well, it's time for a new one, in my opinion. Anyone else have an opinion?

Replies:

[> How about Cowboy Spike (tm) ? -- lakrids, 18:49:34 01/05/04 Mon


[> [> Only if he gets there early ;-) -- LittleBit, 21:19:29 01/05/04 Mon


[> Re: Should Spike change his look? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:57:16 01/05/04 Mon

I really don't see Spike working for Wolfram & Hart. First, Spike is not one to worry about putting a respectable face on things, which is an essential skill at W&H. Second, do you really see Spike voluntarily entering a position where Angel is his boss? Yes, Spike wanted an office, but that was probably just because everyone else had one, so he wanted one, too.

As for his look, when's the last time Angel changed his look? He's been wearing black or dark blue/grey ever since Whistler showed up. Besides, Spike's all about looking cool or rebellious; if he got with the times, we'd be treated to a Generation X style Spike, which, frankly, is just not something I could see working as more than a one off joke.

[> I would pay good money to see Harmony's Blondie-Bear make-over. -- leslie, 15:05:58 01/06/04 Tue


[> Is there anything in the canon... -- Ann, 16:32:10 01/06/04 Tue

that indicates that Spike takes on the look/fashion of the slayer he has just killed other than Nikki? Has he done this before? And perhaps that is why his look is still the same. If and when he were to kill another slayer, his look would change. We know he has had different looks but I wonder if this is the reason.
Romance and Chemistry -- Claudia, 16:04:34 01/05/04 Mon

While reading some of the messages from the archives, I came across someone complaining about Fred's sudden interest in Wes back in Season 4. Someone countered that it was only natural that they would become interested in each other, stating that Wes and Fred had chemistry. That they had a lot in common.

Why is it that people believe that two characters or two people in real life who are very similiar would make a natural couple with a lot of chemistry? I never understood this attitude. One of the reasons I could never get interested in Wes and Fred as a couple . . . or become interested in Buffy and Angel as a couple, is because the people involved are too similar. I'm a firm believer in the term "opposites attract" . . . but only if the pair involved in a relationship are opposites, with a few things in common. I am not a fan of those couples who either have nothing in common, or are too similar. I only hope and pray that Whedon will realize that making Wes and Fred a couple will be a big mistake.

Replies:

[> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Corwin of Amber, 18:01:48 01/05/04 Mon

I'm a firm believer in the term "opposites attract" . . . but only if the pair involved in a relationship are opposites, with a few things in common.

Isn't this a contradictory statement? Could it be that the things that people have in common make for a real relationship, while the "opposites attract" fallacy is responsible for infatuation, obsession and and a lot of heartache?

[> [> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Antigone, 18:45:35 01/05/04 Mon

--Could it be that the things that people have in common make for a real relationship, while the "opposites attract" fallacy is responsible for infatuation, obsession and and a lot of heartache?--


I do not quite agree with you, at least in real life. I've know couples who are absolutely perfect for each other on paper (same values, same background, similar likes and disalikes...). I've even been on the end of that kind of "perfect couple." I tell you: very little "real" chemistry or passion and, yes, some heartaches and disappointments. Now I'm with someone who is my almost opposite. Yes we do have some common values, but other than that we would be a disaster on paper (different levels of education, different religions, social and racial backgrounds, 15 years age difference, etc, etc). We could not be happier and have been for years. Yes, we have chemistry and passion, but also what comes with it when you' re lucky: compatibility and respect for our mutual differences. I agree this might be unusual but it also makes life more interesting and challenging.

I've learnt from that experience that noone can tell who will be compatible with whom... True, common points do help, but they're not sufficient. Friendships even work that way too, I've noticed; Have you even met someone who you just "click" with, no matter how different they are from you and then you become best friends as if you knew each other you're whole lives... on the other hand, have you ever met someone with a similar background and education than you and you have absolutely nothing to tell them?

As for fiction, like Buffy, I've grown to like unusual/non-obvious relationships--yes, when they come with heart-aches it's a bonus!!-- because Dawson'Creek-type romance are just too boring to me; I like me a little spice in my on-screen romances (just IMO of course; no offense to Dawson's fans I hope!)

[> [> [> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Kris, 15:34:36 01/06/04 Tue

Hi, I lurk here a bit, and just had to throw in my two cents. I have to agree w/ Antigone here. My husband and I are a disaster on paper, but have been together for 10 years. We have different interests, different education levels, opposite personalities and many other differences. We have some things in common, but not most. I've always felt that the fact that we are opposite helps our relationship. He is very into risk taking and is very "type B". I am the overly responsible- can't relax kind of person. He helps me to open up and have fun, while I real him in enough to not be irresponsible. It works for us.

Just had to thow that in! :)

Kris

[> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Antigone, 18:27:35 01/05/04 Mon

Good question. I'm not sure what "chemistry" is all about. It's one of those things that people either have or don't have and that cannot be fully explained. I think a big part of it is widely subjective as well... In other words, what do we see in those two characters that make us want them to be/stay together, that make us excited or sad or angry, rather than bored?

To me, two characters/actors have chemistry when they seem to go so naturally together, or when sparks literally fly off the screen, whether they argue or kiss. Chemistry is the way the characters hold themselves, interact with each other, how compatible they are and how realistic (or unusual) their romance is. So two people who are similar may have chemistry (to take your example, Buffy and Angel--although I did not think that they were that similar... I think their chemistry came from his darkness and ambivallence vs. her youth and innocence), as well as two people who are opposites may have chemistry (like Buffy/Spike.. the two actors just have this perfect compatibility on screen... call it professionalism or chemistry... I could watch them on screen for hours). Just like in real life, chemistry can rarely be predicted, no matter how good or exciting or new they might look on paper. To take other movies examples: Neo and Trinity could not be more "alike" in Matrix; I love their chemistry together. On the other hand, I did not buy the Mark Walberg/Thandie Newton romance in the Truth About Charlie, no matter how potentially hot they might have been together.

So chemistry comes from different elements. Whether characters are similar or not plays a part in that (just my opinion of course). I thought there was zero chemistry between Willow and Kennedy; they just did not "jell" on screen as a couple. They seem completely unnatural together; it was almost "forced". Other examples of not so great chemistry (IMO): Angel and Cordelia; Connor and Cordelia; Buffy and Riley; Warren and Trina (we know that ended well!).

Examples of great chemistry (IMO): Xander and Willow; Faith and Wood; Wesley and Lillah; Tarra and Willow; Spike and about anybody.

I've even found "non romantic" couples to have incredible chemistry on screen, like Spike and Dawn or Riley and Willow.

Sorry I don't have a better answer for you. It does not seem to depend so much on the characters' differences or similarities than on an almost magical quality that two actors have together or in the way the couple is written. For example, I always found Fred/Gunn, although an interesting couple to observe because of their differences, a bit "blah." Not much sparks flying IMO. On the other hand, I do like the idea of Fred and Wesley together, but only if ME brings back the new and improved darker, edgier Wesley and stops the "puppy dog/jealousy" act... I like my chemitry to be hot rather than lukewarm! ;-)

[> [> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Claudia, 11:51:32 01/06/04 Tue

"So chemistry comes from different elements. Whether characters are similar or not plays a part in that (just my opinion of course). I thought there was zero chemistry between Willow and Kennedy; they just did not "jell" on screen as a couple. They seem completely unnatural together; it was almost "forced". Other examples of not so great chemistry (IMO): Angel and Cordelia; Connor and Cordelia; Buffy and Riley; Warren and Trina (we know that ended well!).

Examples of great chemistry (IMO): Xander and Willow; Faith and Wood; Wesley and Lillah; Tarra and Willow; Spike and about anybody."


Strange. I was never really a big fan of the Willow/Tara relationship, nor of Buffy/Angel. Willow and Tara seemed a little too similiar, personality-wise, for my tastes. In fact, they almost seemed forced . . . until their clash over Willow's use of magic in Season 6. This is probably why I prefer Willow and Kennedy, who seemed to embody the "opposites attract" rule.

As for Buffy/Angel . . . I suspect that the reason many found their relationship compelling, was due to external reasons - namely their positions as Slayer and vampire, their ages, and Angel's situation with his soul. Internally, they seemed too similiar for my tastes. Both seemed to embody the silent, hero type.

Two introverts in a relationship has never really appealed to me, which is why I was never a big fan of Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, or the idea of Wes/Fred. Nor am I fond of the two extroverts relationships, as embodied in the form of Xander/Cordelia . . . and a few others.

[> [> [> The problem with chemistry -- Dlgood, 15:22:14 01/06/04 Tue

The problem I always have with the concept of "chemistry" is that it's so hard to define. You either see it or you don't.

for Buffy/Angel . . . I suspect that the reason many found their relationship compelling, was due to external reasons - namely their positions as Slayer and vampire, their ages, and Angel's situation with his soul. Internally, they seemed too similiar for my tastes.

For me, to the extent that I cared about Buffy/Angel I did so as much as they appeared to care about each other. All these "external" things Claudia mentions are internal to the relationship for them. Just as the slayer/vampire and soul issues with the Buffy/Spike relationship. In both cases, such an ideological viewpoint has precious little to do with "chemistry".

Chemistry is just that *zing* two characters have with each other, when nobody is thinking about anything and just a "feeling" you get watching them.

IMHO, Buffy/Angel had tons of romantic chemistry when they were on the same show, and still did in Angel's scenes on BtVS. Buffy/Riley never had chemistry, and Buffy/Spike had chemistry up until they actually started having sex at which point it dwindled and appeared largely evaporated in S7.

Angel/Cordelia had plenty of chemistry as siblings/friends, but less than none as a romantic pair. Angel/Lilah and Angel/Lindsey had better chemistry. Angel(us)/Darla had tons of chemistry, Xander/Cordy had romantic chemistry. Willow/Xander and Willow/Tara sometimes had romantic chemistry and sometimes did not. Anya had better romantic chemistry with Giles than she did with Xander.

Fred, who is like Wesley and unlike Gunn, for the most part had romantic chemistry with neither, but had tremendous chemistry with Willow. Wesley/Lilah had tons of romantic/sexual chemistry.

But I'm totally at a loss to explain how or why I feel that way.

[> [> [> [> Re: The problem with chemistry -- Claudia, 11:54:37 01/07/04 Wed

"Chemistry is just that *zing* two characters have with each other, when nobody is thinking about anything and just a "feeling" you get watching them.

IMHO, Buffy/Angel had tons of romantic chemistry when they were on the same show, and still did in Angel's scenes on BtVS. Buffy/Riley never had chemistry, and Buffy/Spike had chemistry up until they actually started having sex at which point it dwindled and appeared largely evaporated in S7.

Angel/Cordelia had plenty of chemistry as siblings/friends, but less than none as a romantic pair. Angel/Lilah and Angel/Lindsey had better chemistry. Angel(us)/Darla had tons of chemistry, Xander/Cordy had romantic chemistry. Willow/Xander and Willow/Tara sometimes had romantic chemistry and sometimes did not. Anya had better romantic chemistry with Giles than she did with Xander.

Fred, who is like Wesley and unlike Gunn, for the most part had romantic chemistry with neither, but had tremendous chemistry with Willow. Wesley/Lilah had tons of romantic/sexual chemistry."


Aside from Wesley/Lilah, it seems that I don't share your opinion. Buffy and Angel never zinged for me - especially when they did crossovers. Angel's appearance in "Chosen" seemed really flat. Nor did Willow and Tara, Willow and Oz or Xander and Cordy do anything for me. Gunn and Fred were okay. So were Willow and Kennedy, as far as I was concerned. As for Buffy and Spike, I adored them as a couple . . . right up to the end. Even the Season 6 sex-fest didn't spoil it for me. The whole thing made them even more fascinating and complex. I can say the same about Wesley and Lilah, along with Xander and Anya.

As for Wesley and Fred - They seem boring as a couple. Do you want to know what seemed to be the crux of the Wes/Fred ship, every time there is a "romantic" scene between them? Wes looks like a stuffed fish and Fred gets that "deer-in-the-headlights" look.

There doesn't seem to be any dynamic between a couple who are similar in personality. It's like falling in love with someone who's exactly like you. Wes and Fred are okay as friends, but I find the romantic tension between them . . . forced. In fact, I doubt very much that they really understand each other.

Also, there is something about Fred's romance patterns that I find disturbing. In the past, she seemed to have this habit of falling for men she considered "heroic" or champion-like. Remember her infatuation of Angel back in early Season 3? She had practically fawned over him, because he had saved her life back in Pylea. This infatuation lasted, until she saw him (or that old man in Angel's body) and Lilah making whoopie on Angel's desk. And when Angel made it clear that he wasn't interested in her, her romantic dreams disappeared . . . until a few months later, when she developed an interest in Charles.

It was apparent that she saw him as some kind of knight-in-shining armor, who could do no wrong . . . until he did two things. One, he took away her vengeful decision to send Professor Siedel to Pylea, and two . . . he killed Siedel, himself. Apparently, Fred could not deal with the fact that someone she was romantically involved with, was capable of such darkness. Because of this, she began distancing herself away from Charles, but it was he who broke up the romance.

But it didn't end there. Wes decided to step into the picture. I strongly suspect that his reason he decided to help Fred get revenge over Siedel was purely selfish. This was a way for him to get closer to her. Other than this incident, Wes had (and still does) a bad habit of idealizing her. And Fred, rather unwisely, believed that he understood her more than anyone else, and began to idealize Wes. Even Angelus, in "Calvary", managed to correctly guess the true reason behind Fred's sudden interest in Wes and immediately burst her bubble, by revealing Wes' affair with Lilah. Again, Fred found herself disappointed. She almost came close to renewing her relationship with Charles in "Release" with a kiss, but it didn't work out.

Now, Fred seemed to be involved with Knox. Granted, he's boring, but she doesn't seemed to view him as some kind of "hero" or "champion". At least I hope not. She is aware of Wes' interest in her again, but I don't know how this will turn out. Judging from her reaction to Wes' shooting of RogerBot in "Destiny", instinct tells me that a romance between the two of them will only end in failure. I noticed how she tried to dismiss the shooting by pointing out that Roger Wyndham-Pryce was a cyborg imposter. But Wes knew better. When he shot RogerBot NINE TIMES, he thought he was shooting his father.

[> [> [> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Dlgood, 15:31:49 01/06/04 Tue

Two introverts in a relationship has never really appealed to me, which is why I was never a big fan of Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, or the idea of Wes/Fred. Nor am I fond of the two extroverts relationships, as embodied in the form of Xander/Cordelia

But that again is an issue of "ideology" and not of "chemistry". That characters are too "like" or "un-like" strikes me as a superficial metric. There are plenty of reasons Wesley/Fred make a lousy couple and the fact that they're both bookish, introspective, like guns, and have poor eyesight seems to be pretty pale in comparison to the actual details of the relationship.

"Chemistry" is often a superficial thing too.

Xander and Cordelia have great chemistry. While both are sometimes outgoing, in S2 they are also a boilerplate case of "opposites attract". That doesn't necessarily make them right for one another. But it makes them great to watch.

[> [> [> [> Re: Romance and Chemistry -- Claudia, 11:57:24 01/07/04 Wed

"But that again is an issue of "ideology" and not of "chemistry". That characters are too "like" or "un-like" strikes me as a superficial metric. There are plenty of reasons Wesley/Fred make a lousy couple and the fact that they're both bookish, introspective, like guns, and have poor eyesight seems to be pretty pale in comparison to the actual details of the relationship.

"Chemistry" is often a superficial thing too."


Listen, whatever is your definition of "chemistry" is, the fact remains that two introverted characters as a couple seem boring to me. Which is why I'm not a Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz or even a Willow/Tara fan. And I dread the idea of a Wesley/Fred pairing. That's all I can say.

[> [> [> [> [> Chemistry is... -- Seven, 09:22:47 01/08/04 Thu

Chemistry is bringing out the best in another person. whether that best is something that is completely good for the person or if it is something that was not as good but had to be done.

This could get confusing, but two people -- whether on-screen or not -- are best together when their connection breeds change or breeds growth (which aren't the same)

Change is frightening to many people. But it is also freeing. Fright heightens our awarness of being alive. Change causes fright (or goes straight to exilheration and skips the fear.) it is the freeing moments that cause chemistry.

When Cordy and Xander kiss for the first time, it was a joke because of its unexpectedness, but under the surface we have to imagine that these feeling have brewed for sometime and that their prior (and future) bickering was sexual tension. The kiss and the relationship as a whole was freeing

Buffy/Angel: Insert freeing here. Hi, I'm an everbrooding vampire w/ a soul. Hi! I'm a cheerleader with the weight of the world on my shoulders. So much depended on them. Everyone looked to them for answers and actions ( you might not think this accounts for angel in early BTVS but who does everyone go to for information or exta help?) but who did they look to? Eachother. They each found freedom from their "Duties"

OZ/Willow: Oz -- freed from monotony of band groupy idiots. Willow -- free from her infatuation with Xander

Spike/Buffy : Spike, Free from his handicapps (chip, love for buffy) Buffy, Free from her depression

Fred/Gunn, Buffy/Riley (and i liked Riley), Willow/Kennedy ---- HI!!! We are called plot devices used to move the story to where we need it.

Hi! We are Fred/Gunn. We were used to alienate Wesely.

HI! We are Buffy/Riley, We were used to fill the void of Angel/Buffy

Hi! We are Willow/Kennedy, we were used to fill void of Willow/Tara and "really prove that Willow is a lesbian and can get ridiculously hot chicks too"

anyway, it's in the freedom.

7

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chemistry is... -- Claudia, 10:59:56 01/08/04 Thu

"but who did they look to? Eachother. They each found freedom from their "Duties""

Hmmm, I seemed to recall that they caused each other a lot of misery, as well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> but that's just it.... -- Seven, 11:45:40 01/08/04 Thu

To quote a bad movie:

"You can't have the sweet without the sour."

they caused eachother misery because one always has control over the other's freedom. All couples, no matter how great, fight. They cause eachother misery because they love each other, because only that person can hurt them by taking away the pleasure they get from each other, the freedom that they get.

Are you saying that because they caused eachother misery that they didn't have chemistry? Because I'm sorry, but that is just wrong. Any real relationship contains heartache. All daisies and roses is a recipe for trouble.

Chemistry has to do with freedom and growth, not likes or opposites. Yeah, there are some people who are very similar and have great relationships. Those same people can have horrible relationships. Opposites can do the same thing. the majority of couples I know though, aren't from either category. Most have numerous things in common and then have plenty of things completely different from each other. Common grounds invites unity. Opposing grounds invite unity also but through conversation of different views. However, niether has anything to do with whether two people "Click."

just my two cents.

7

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chemistry is... -- Dlgood, 15:32:20 01/08/04 Thu

Hmmm, I seemed to recall that they caused each other a lot of misery, as well.

You wrote about Buffy and Spike having chemistry, and liking the idea of them as a couple, and yet Buffy and Spike most certainly caused each other tons of misery as well.

So, could you perhaps be a bit more specific in terms of what point you wanted to make with that particular comment? Because I'm not sure what that point was.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What I'm Saying -- Claudia, 16:13:29 01/08/04 Thu

Let me put it this way . . . if you like Buffy/Angel, or Willow/Tara or whatever couple that appeals to you . . . go ahead. Whatever floats your boat.

But what I was doing was expressing my dislike of certain couples because they bore me to death. Buffy/Angel are one of those couples. The only things that make them somewhat interesting is that she is a Slayer and human; he's a vampire and cursed with a soul. Other than that, their personalities are too alike for me to consider them as an interesting couple. I found the angst in their story adolescent and dull. I'm just not a fan of "idealized" romance. I was more than relieved when Angel left BtVS for his own show. Of course, I became bored again when he made his reappearances on BUFFY. The whole "Angel vs. Riley" from "The Yoko Factor" seemed laughable. And I thought his appearances in both "Forever" and "Chosen" rather flat and unecessary.

I also harbor a dislike of the possibility of a Wes/Fred romance. Certain people seemed to think that just because both are braniacs, they are perfect for each other and have chemistry. I disagree. I find their screen prescence when romance is hinted rather forced and dull. I also believe that deep down, these are two characters who do not really understand each other. Not really. And I would think it would be a mistake on ME's part to make them a couple.

As for Buffy finding pain and misery with both Angel and Spike . . . yes, she has. Love isn't all smiles and cuddling. But I would rather see Buffy and Spike's misery together than Buffy and Angel's. To me, the former's misery seems more complex and fascinating. And not over-the-top teenaged angst.
OBAFU required reading? -- Celebaelin, 05:59:05 01/06/04 Tue

HonorH, check this out if you haven't already.

"Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation." Lynne Truss (Profile Books)

This has been a popular Christmas book in the UK and, quite apart from its more informative moments, is packed to the gunwales with wit and humour.

Miss Truss(t) writes as if she were posting to ATPo, so much so that it makes me wonder whether she does, or perhaps she is a lurker. Anyway the book's a delight, LT acts as a sort of appologist for the overworked apostrophe and, amongst other things, wags a remonstrative finger in our direction for writing such things as:

"The tap water is safe to drink in tea and coffee, however, we recommend using bottled water for drinking, it can be purchased very cheaply in the nearby shops."

There should be a semi-colon after drinking I think. She describes the comma as 'the illiterate default punctuation mark' although I believe she is as caustic about her own errors. In one passage she does, in fact, touch upon her own stet addiction.

I am put in mind of a favourite written jest of my Grandmother's

If the B empty put more:
If the B. putting:

If the grate be empty put more coal on
If the grate be full stop putting coal on

Ironically this isn't very well punctuated in the end, but is anything?

Replies:

[> commas & semicolons -- anom, 09:23:20 01/06/04 Tue

"'The tap water is safe to drink in tea and coffee, however, we recommend using bottled water for drinking, it can be purchased very cheaply in the nearby shops.'

There should be a semi-colon after drinking I think."

Yes, or possibly even a period. There should definitely be a semicolon before (but not after) "however." Or even--in fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that should be 2 sentences, either

"The tap water is safe to drink in tea and coffee; however, we recommend using bottled water for drinking. It can be purchased very cheaply in the nearby shops."

or

"The tap water is safe to drink in tea and coffee. However, we recommend using bottled water for drinking; it can be purchased very cheaply in the nearby shops."

The 2nd one makes more sense to me. Tap water in 1 sentence, bottled in another.

"She describes the comma as 'the illiterate default punctuation mark'...."

Heh, too true...but what about all the poor orphaned commas that aren't put in at all? This is how the significance of commas gets lost, till it seems some people don't even understand the difference a comma can make to the meaning of a sentence. The very title of Truss' book shows what can result from this: It's from a joke about a panda that, yes, walks into a bar. The panda has a meal, then pulls a gun, shoots one of the other patrons, & heads out the door. The bartender asks, "Why did you do that?" & the panda snarls, "I'm a panda! Look it up!" The bartender finds a dictionary, looks under "panda," & after the basic description, sees: "Eats shoots and leaves." Which is what the panda just did...if you add a comma or 2.

So please, use commas correctly. You never know--you could save a life!

[> [> Re: commas & semicolons -- DickBD, 12:16:42 01/06/04 Tue

To me, the apostrophes that often appear in dates, such as "in the 1960's," are gratuitous. But some newspapers are consistent about using them. In my mind, they come about because of an apostrophe that can be used if you drop the first two digits, such as "the '60s." Somehow it became commonplace to use them in all plural dates, even if I think it is incorrect. But if enough writers do it, the practice becomes standard.

[> [> [> Apostrophes in dates and parenthetical howevers -- Celebaelin, 00:52:41 01/07/04 Wed

LT identifies 8 distinct uses for the apostrophe, the second of which on her list is as an indication of time or quantity, as examples she gives:

In one week's time
Four yards' worth
and
Two weeks' notice (with a request that Warner Brothers should take note of their omission).

This is a different from the other usage with regard to dates which, as you rightly say, marks the omission of figures from dates (number three on LT's list).

Personally I can live with "however" as a stand-alone parenthetical clause. If it isn't correct to use a comma, and it probably isn't, then a semi-colon should be preferred IMO as the additional information is a closely related continuation of the subject. I agree that the full stop feels better though. On page 24 LT writes "If you resort to the full stop all the time, by the way, and don't use any thing else, and keep to very short sentences, people who have read H. W. Fowler's The King's English (1906) will accuse you of "spot plague" and perhaps also assume you are modelling yourself on Ernest Hemmingway, but the good news is you can't go wrong gramatically."

Before the fun element fades from view in the face of all the middle-aged angst, uncertainty and self-doubt that debating the use of commas can provoke I just want to say that the spirit of the book is well captured by the sentence:

Who cares if members of your family abhor your Inner Stickler and devoutly wish you had an inner Scooby-Doo instead?

Incidentally anom, when I first heard the panda joke it was considerably dirtier than the version given by you and LT, I'll let your imagination fill in the gaps.

[> [> [> Re: commas & semicolons -- d'Herblay, 01:37:03 01/07/04 Wed

My understanding is that this, and the similar case of apostrophes in plural acronyms, is seen so often on this side of the Atlantic because The New York Times ran its headlines all-caps. They wanted to avoid confusion between 60S and 6OS or somesuch, so they inserted the apostrophes. Then, to maintain consistency, they adopted this style throughout the paper, so that HMOs are still HMO's in the Times. Or, anyway, that's what William Safire once explained. I'm with you, though: the apostrophe goes where the excision is.

(By the way: I realize Voy is ignoring my HTML. I'm inserting it anyway. It will all look good in the archives.)
Bringing it up from below - This one is for Masq -- Ann, 19:12:33 01/06/04 Tue

Maskerade Lyrics Guardian Angel I've never heard of this band but apologies.

Don't cry
I am here and I am strong
Don't hide your prose at all!
Got to learn to let it shine on
You've got everything inside
You need to post on Atpobtvs
And that's why I'm here tonight
And to watch Connor and Angel.

I'll chat the world till sleep
Discuss all and keep you well
Watch the son rises in the East
Until Connor is with Angel

Secrets
You know they're safe with me
Regret
Only if you post when you are not true
feeling joy deep down inside
I see you all *so* alive
And that's why I'm here tonight
To be your Atpobtvs angel.

I'll chat the world to sleep
Discussion keeps you well
Watch the archives live on
Until Connor is with Angel

Think about it now
On such a motivating night
Shouldn't we post?
And let it go into the voyÕd.

I wonÕt sing the web-mistress blues
But hold you close and keep you well
Watch the moon rise in the East
Be your guardian of Angel.

Replies:

[> from the film "the Young girls of Rochefort" - for Rochefort -- Ann, 19:44:02 01/06/04 Tue

YOU MUST BELIEVE IN SPRING
Original Music by Michel Legrand
Original Lyrics by Alan and Marilyn Bergman

These by me. Apologies again. Also for the caps.
YOU MUST BELIEVE IN FAN FICTION

WHEN LONELY FEELINGS CHILL THE POSTING OF YOUR MIND,
JUST THINK IF WINTER COMES, CAN A MYSTERY BE FAR BEHIND?
BENEATH THE DEEPEST SNOWS, THE SECRET OF A PONYGIRL
IS MERELY THAT IT KNOWS YOU MUST BELIEVE IN MOLOJ!

JUST AS A TREE IS SURE ITS LEAVES WILL REAPPEAR,
IT KNOWS ITS WORK IS JUST FOR A HAPPY NEW YEAR,
THE FROZEN DREAMS OF ROCHEFORTÕS WAITING PHD,
HOW CRYSTAL CLEAR IT SEEMS, YOU MUST BELIEVE IN MOLOJ!
YOU MUST BELIEVE IN FANFIC AND TRUST ITÕS ON ITS WAY,
JUST AS THE SLEEPING ROSE AWAITS THE KISS OF MAY,(SUBTEXT??)
SO IN A WORLD OF SNOW, OF THINGS THAT COME AND GO, (LIKE MICHAELANGELO)
WHERE WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW, YOU CANÕT BE CERTAIN OF,
YOU MUST BELIEVE IN FANFICTION AND THE "SCHOOL VARIETY SHOW".

[> [> For Pony: given your change of name -- Ann, 08:03:43 01/07/04 Wed

For Ponygirl. Apolgies to Burt Bacharach

What do you get when you google someone?
A list that will burst your bubble
That's what you get for all your trouble.
I'll never google ponygirl again.
I'll never google her again.

What do you get when you try to lyric?
You get enough ideas fear it.
After you do, you will change your settings.
I'll never google ponygirl again.
I'll never google her again.

Don't tell me what is all about,
'Cause I've seen it and I'm glad I'm out,
Out of those chains, and other images
That is why I'm here to remind you

What do you get when you google someone?
You get enough scenes to fill any perversion
That's what you get for your lyric devotion.
I'll never google ponygirl again.
I'll never google her again.

What do you get when you try to write?
You only get lies and pain and sorrow.
So, for at least until the next google,
I'll never google her again!
I'll never google her again!

[> [> [> Now you understand why I changed it -- Pony, 08:12:44 01/07/04 Wed


[> [> [> XTC for Cjl -- Ann, 08:38:14 01/07/04 Wed

Apologies to XTC - Helicopter Lyrics

For CJL

Oh heli Oh heli
I'm crouching here with keyboard in hand
Looking across our internet land
I really think it's about time that Cjl wrote it down
HeÕs a laughing giggly whirlybird
He is funny to be overheard
I really think its about time that he wrote it down

And I donÕt object to all the story lines
that he would pick up
that he could pick up

When Cjl's up there twirling round
Just like a helicopter - copter
He's landing in Prague
It's about time that we heard his sound
When he's up there twirling round
Just like a helicopter - copter
Oh heli - Oh heli

Now he's away from the board, he's gone wild
Grown from a nice young man to a child
I really think its about time that he wrote down
HeÕs a laughing giggly whirlybird
He got to be funny to be overheard
I really think it's about time that Cjl posted round.

[> [> [> [> How did you know? XTC is one of my favorite bands! Thanks! -- cjl, 09:37:33 01/07/04 Wed


[> [> [> [> XTC and "pony girls" (and boys)*LOL -- Briar Rose, 18:42:27 01/08/04 Thu

Interestingly - I always assumed that you knew what the term Pony Girl meant, Ann.... Since I'm a sort-a kinster-ette, I always assume that everyone knows the double entendre's of the kinky world I visit so frequently. Pony Boys and Pony Girls (as well as Puppy Play) is part of the BDSM landscape. There are even training camps and prize laden "Shows" for these Fetishes. It's becoming even more prevalent as people seek more active role playing scenarios.

Okay - so now we have the Pony Girl thing out in the open, but there are als other possible pitfalls to seeking info. You all know the norms, I'm sure... CBT, Edge Play, etc....

However, y'all might NOT want to search google for XTC either, since XTC is a very well known LEATHER SHOP in L.A. that serves the leather community for clothing, kinky supplies and, YES, PONY TOYS!!!!*LOL

For those that are interested in the less vanilla side of life, I highly recommend XTC Fashion and Fetish. For those of you that are less inclined, I'd suggest that you be very CAREFUL of google-ing XTC without also adding band or something.

With that - I'm off to Vega$ with my KittyCat Boy to hang out at the AVN Awards, BondCon and the Adult Entertainment Expo. Have a glorious weekend everyone!

[> [> [> [> [> Oh I did know but just had not googled it. -- Ann, 18:48:47 01/08/04 Thu

Catherine the Great still lives. lol

I learned this search engine lesson years ago when I was pregnant with twins and did a search with the word twins. Yikes.

Have a "good" weekend.

[> [> [> [> [> Oh,my, am I naive! -- Jane, 22:58:51 01/08/04 Thu

Had no idea ponygirls were anything but little girls who ride ponies.(Blushes). Googling can be dangerous to one's innocence! Oh well, I pride myself on my openmindedness. Don't care what anyone does, as long as he/she doesn't do it in the street and scare the horses!!

[> [> [> [> [> As god as my witness I intended it as an Outsiders reference -- Pony (no longer the girl), 07:00:58 01/09/04 Fri

Not that there's anything wrong with that... but I am annoyed that the ponyplay thing has become more widely known in the last couple years and smutified a perfectly cute nickname that I had been using for quite a while.

[> [> Oh my god. I've never had an anthem. -- Rochefort, 12:37:47 01/07/04 Wed

Gosh I love it. It makes my heart pitter patter. :)

Rochefort

[> Thanks *that's sweet*! -- Masq, 09:23:32 01/07/04 Wed


[> This one is for d'Herblay -- Ann, 11:01:27 01/07/04 Wed

Apologies to Sarah McLachlan

Your writing is better than nasal ice cream
better than anything else that I've tried
and your writing is better than nasal ice cream
but everyone here wants to try

and it's a long way to dÕHorrible
But that is never a problem for Rah
it's not a long way to your new post
but look where we started from

Your writing is better than nasal chocolate
better than anything else that I've tried
oh writing is better than chocolate
everyone here knows how to post!

it's a long way to
it's a long way to
it's a long way your new post
where we started from...

[> [> Thank you! -- d'Herblay, 15:41:11 01/07/04 Wed

You've obviously done your research! I must admit that my first thought was "'nasal ice cream'? How unappetizing!" Of course, then Rah reminded me that it was something I used to jabber on about!

[> For Jane and Angel's Nibblet -- Ann, 14:48:25 01/07/04 Wed

Stand By Your Unicorn. No apologies here. Didn't do much to this one.

Sometimes it's hard to be a woman
Giving all your love to just one unicorn
You'll have bad times and he'll have good times
Doing things that you don't understand

But if you love him please forgive him
Even though he's hard to understand
And if you love him, be proud of him
'Cause after all he's just a unicorn

Stand by your unicorn
Give him to arms to cling to
And something warm to come to
When the nights are cold and lonely

Stand by your unicorn
And show the world you love him
Keep giving all the love you can
Stand by your unicorn

And if you love him, be proud of him
'Cause after all he's just a unicorn

Stand by your unicorn
Give him to arms to cling to
And something warm to come to
When the nights are cold and lonely

Stand by your unicorn
And show the world you love him
Keep giving all the love you can
Stand by your unicorn

[> [> Thank you. Thank you very much! :-) -- Jane & Midnight (wannabe Unicorn in training), 18:04:06 01/07/04 Wed


[> [> Yaaaaay!! *claps furiously* my unicorn greatly appreciates the tribute :-D -- angel's nibblet, 12:45:09 01/08/04 Thu


[> For Darby -- Ann, 18:22:38 01/07/04 Wed

Apologies to R&H

Raindrops on the hellmouth,
And whiskers on Ms. Kitty,
WillowÕs copper haircuts,
And knitted woolen sweaters,
AnyaÕs got Zander,
Tied up with strings,
These are a few of my favorite things . . .

Cream colored unicorns,
An' crisp vampire ashes,
Doorways to hells,
An' SpikeÕs lost his noodle,
Wild werewolves that change with the moon on their fangs,
These are a few of my favorite things . . .

Buffy in white dresses,
With white satin sashes,
Snow flakes that stay on her nose and AngelÕs eyelashes,
Silver white winters,
That melt into spring,
These are a few of my favorite things . . .

When the werewolf bites,
When the WC stings,
When I'm feelin' sad,
I simply remember my favorite things,
And then I don't feel so bad . . .

Sarah....hmmm atpobtvs...
posts.......parasites....
La dee da, la dee da,
La dee da, da,
These are a few of my favorite things . . .

When the werewolf bites,
When the invertebrate stings,
When I'm feelin' sad,
I simply remember my favorite things,
And little by little my heavy heart sings . . .

And then I don't feel so bad . . .

[> [> It's true - I am one of his favorite things! -- Sara, never slow to tell Darby how happy he is married to me, 20:31:15 01/07/04 Wed

'cause you know, sometimes he forgets...

[> for Little Bit: Anticipating your part in the story -- Ann, 19:25:34 01/07/04 Wed

Apologies Bay City Rollers

L I T T L E B I T Night! (x4)

Keep on chatting Ôbout Buffy and Angel,
On Saturday Night, Sunday Night.
Chatting with you, with everyone,
On Monday Night, Tuesday Night.

I-I-I-I just can't wait,
I-I-I-I gotta state.

At the good ol' ATPOBTVS,
folk show, I've gotta go!
Wednesday Night, Thursday Night
Gonna chat it up, chat it up,
do it all, have a ball
Friday Night, Saturday Night.

L I T T L E B I T Night (x3)

L I T T L E B I T Night! (x4)

Gonna chat with my friends till the night is through,
All through the week, and Saturday too.
Tell them all the little philosophies I'm gonna do,
On Saturday Night, Saturday Night.

I-I-I-I'm gonna so,
I-I-I-I'll let them know.

At the good ol' ATPOBTVS,
I hope they show, I've gotta go!
Saturday Night, Saturday Night
Gonna chat it up, chat it up,
do it all, have a ball
Saturday Night, Saturday Night.

L I T T L E B I T Night(x3)

[> [> You know me too well!! -- LittleBit [giggling like crazy], 18:33:19 01/08/04 Thu


[> Humbly, for Honorificus -- Ann, your truest minion, 12:20:36 01/08/04 Thu

Apologies to New Order

Blue Monday, or Blue Blaniks

How does it feel to treat me like you do?
When you've laid your reviews upon me and told me what you think.
I thought I was mistaken, I thought I read your words.
Tell me how to wear leather. Tell me now! What to think?
Those who came before me lived with your devotions
from season one until chosen, who will produce any more?
And still I find it so hard to say what I need to say.
But I'm quite sure that you'll tell me just how I should feel today.
I see your posts on the board. I can and shall obey.
But if it wasn't for your fortune, I'd be a more heavenly minion today.
And I thought I was mistaken, and I thought I heard you speak
Tell me, how do I feel. Tell me now, how should I feel.
Now I stand here waiting...
I thought I told Manolo to leave you when you walked down to beach.
Tell me how does it feel, when your shoes grows old, grows old, cold.

Your humble minion, Ann

[> And lastly (for a while at least) for all -- Ann, who has enjoyed your allowing this indulgence, 18:42:21 01/08/04 Thu

Originally written by Don McLean

A long, long time ago I can still remember
how that show used to make me smile
And I knew that if I had my chance
I could make those people take a stance
and write about Joss in their artistic style.

Did you read the book of Joss
And did you have faith in him, the boss?
If the canon tells you so,
do you believe a philosophy,
Should save your essence or soul
and can it teach you about this TV show?

Well, I know that you're in love with him
'Cos I saw you posting again and again
you kicked off your shoes
Man, I dig those shanshue blues.

She was a lonely vampire slayer
with a stake and not much of a prayer
but I knew that we were out of luck
the day she died
I started crying.

Bye, bye, Buffy, youÕre just a girl
You died in the sewer
But Zander brought you back
from the MasterÕs sinister attack
Portending this'll be the time that you die
This'll be the day that you die.

Buffy died most every year,
so I asked Joss for some happy news
but he just smiled and turned away.
So I went down to the DVD store
where I'd bought the first season before
but the man there said in a heartfelt way

That, on the boards, the posters screamed
The writers cried, and the poets dreamed
Many words were spoken
The potentials all were broken
And the three characters I admire the most
Buffy, Angel, and Spike the sometime Ghost
Made for excellent metaphorical posts
The day the show died
We started crying'

Bye, bye, Buffy girl
Seven years were quite a whirl
But now we can view
the good old boys drinking' mountain dew
The cup of tormentÕs heady cry
This'll be the day that I die.

Bye, bye, Buffy girl
Those seven years were quite a whirl
Angel we can now view
with good old boys drinking' mountain dew
The cup of tormentÕs heady cry
This'll be the day that I die.

We started singin'
We started singin'
We started singin'
We started singin'

[> [> *joins in for the last chorus, slightly teary-eyed and swaying drunkenly* -- angel's nibblet, 00:37:27 01/09/04 Fri

Yay!!! Encore!!!!!Encore!!!!

Who's for making that the board's official theme song? You've got my vote!!!!

Well done, a very fine piece of work if I may say so. Much applause to you :-D

[> [> [> Singing along, very off key.. -- Jane, 00:45:34 01/09/04 Fri

I'm with you,Nibblet! A big three thumbs up for the official song of the Board. Rock on, Ann!
By the way, are you two as excited as I am about where we're going next in the Big Questing Adventure thingy below??

[> [> [> [> Yes!!! I certainly am!!! -- angel's nibblet, 01:00:12 01/09/04 Fri

My hobbity sense of adventure is all excited and I certainly won't be able to sleep! Or maybe that's just the caffeine... Either way, am eagerly awaiting the next chapter in our joint adventure like a little kid awaits Christmas...

Hey I say "three thumbs up" too :-O scary.

Hmmmm...I'm still trying to find the perfect name for my unicorn... I could name it Eowyn, coz she's my hero :-D *starts singing "Wind Beneath My Wings", then stops when neighbouring dogs start howling along* Hehe reminds me of the episode of Gilmore Girls I saw the other day, hehehe *chuckles manically to herself*

I think Eowyn is a good name for a unicorn. I think she would be proud to have a horsey-type animal named after her. Now if only yours was named Faramir....

I really should go to bed.

I certainly hope there will be another chapter here when I get up hinthintwinkwinknudgenudgesaynomore

[> [> : does the snoopy dance -- Rochefort, 09:04:43 01/09/04 Fri

My favorite line:

"And the three characters I admire the most.... Buffy, Angel, and Spike the sometimes ghost." Pure genius.

Rochefort
Willow's Misuse of Magic -- Claudia, 13:47:27 01/09/04 Fri

In response to Skeeve:

"The problem with the cure wasn't that it wouldn't work, it did."

Could you explain a little further on this?


"I think the following rules would have done quite well for Willow:"

I disagree. Using magic seemed to be a way for Willow to build up her own self esteem. I donÕt think that by simply following the rules of magic would have helped her. Willow needed to reflect on her emotional problems and discover why she needed an external force to solve them, in the first place.

"I think that these rules would have handled Willow's moral problem as well as her addiction problem."

For the reasons stated above, I disagree.

Replies:

[> Re: Willow's Misuse of Magic -- Kansas, 15:34:56 01/09/04 Fri

Here are skeeve's rules, for convenience:

Don't have anyone use magic on you without another Scooby's permission.
Absent an emergency, don't use magic without telling another Scooby about it first.
Scoobies should be told about emergency magic ASAP.

These are good rules; they address the problem of Willow using magic secretively (and selfishly). And I think Willow's problem mainly was the magic.

Willow's magic was what magnified her moral failings and made them dangerous... her feelings of jealousy, anger, sadness, grief, etc., are all perfectly normal things. And by themselves they would've been innocuous.

(Sorry this is such a brief answer, but RL is calling.) :)

Current board | More January 2004