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Anybody suspisous of Cordy? (spoilers ats 4.10) -- mackrowe, 06:47:05 01/30/03 Thu

I don't know why but I just am getting a weird vibe from her. Before the dream sequence she was just off. Anyone else see this?
Maybe I am just crazy. If one of my friends strangely was turned into a vision carrying demon and then went completely missing for 3 months, only to reappear with no memories of who or what she is, I would be a little suspisous. Does it seem strange that the AI team never tried to find out if it was actually Cordy? We have seen on both shows that evil thing like to impersonate friends of the good guys.
Just let me know if I am off my rocker.
[> Re: Anybody suspisous of Cordy? (spoilers ats 4.10) -- maddog, 11:27:11 01/30/03 Thu

Way off! :) I can see where you'd be suspicious but she's got memories of being a higher being that I'm not quite sure can be faked.
[> I am! I am! -- ponygirl, waving her hand, 11:37:53 01/30/03 Thu

[> You bet I am... -- Peggin, 11:48:27 01/30/03 Thu

In a couple of episodes this season, they've made a point of the fact that Angel has perfect recall, so I just don't believe that there are any memories of Angelus's that Angel can't remember. The only reason we have to believe that there are "hidden" memories is because Cordelia said so.

I've thought Cordy has been acting strangely ever since she got demonized (the whole thing with how Angel was the best person she had ever known, even though he had just tried to kill Wesley comes to mind). I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I've seen some comments suggesting that either that's not really her, or that something was done to her either when she was demonized or when she was with the Higher Powers, but that what we've been seeing isn't the real Cordelia.

Is the Cordelia we've been seeing on the screen even the real Cordelia? (Maybe the real Cordy is still hanging with the Powers, screaming at Angel to get her out of there.) Or maybe it is the real Cordelia, but one that was brainwashed, much like Spike was?

So then I thought about it. Who (besides Angel) was supposed to be on watch when the drinks were drugged and the surveilance cameras were turned off? Cordelia.

Why do we believe that Angelus made a pact with the Beast? Because Cordelia had a vision.

Is it possible that Angelus never had anything to do with the Beast at all? Could it be that Cordelia was never really with the Higher Powers like she thought, and this whole thing has really been about the Forces of Evil working to manipulate the situation so that Angelus would be unleashed once again?

I kind of hope it's something like this, because I used to love Cordy, and I have barely been able to stand her since "Birthday". It would make me feel better if it wasn't really her, or if it was her suffering from some kind of brainwashing or something.
[> [> Re: You bet I am... -- Dochawk, 13:26:54 01/30/03 Thu

And after Angel refuses Wes's suggestion about the Shaman its cordy who manipulates him to let the Shaman do his work. Cordy wants Angelus, but why?
[> I am, to a certain extent, but... -- Rob, 12:14:16 01/30/03 Thu

...I think it's more likely that she's a sleeper agent for the Beast (or maybe even the PTB?) than a fake Cordy. Because she seems confused and depressed, perhaps b/c subconsciously, she's horrified by these things she has been doing (if she has). I don't think an evil version of Cordy would act so helpless and sad. Or as horrified by these visions of the Beast.

Rob
[> Ever since she's been all un-floaty. ;) -- LadyStarlight, 14:56:55 01/30/03 Thu

Angel's 'Awakening'? -- SableHart, 07:17:44 01/30/03 Thu

This theory came to me last night, and since no one's touched upon it, I'll throw it out there. What if Angel's 'dream' from the episode wasn't Angel's? I think all of the events we saw in the 'dream' sequence weren't actually a product of Angel's desire for personal resolution and a good adventure, but rather, they are the events supplied to us by Angelus as the shaman takes Angel's soul away. I believe that the magic the shaman was doing to release Angel's soul can be seen in the dream sequence. Angel's soul has to be released through a moment of perfect happiness (disregarding the scary guy from "Enemies" and the happy pill from "Eternity") So the shaman and Angelus led Angel down the garden path to the point where he was deluded into a 'perfect happiness' state. It isn't Angel's ego supplying us with all these visions of happiness and light, but Angelus. Angelus picks up on all the issues preventing Angel from perfect happiness, resolves them all in his pretty little head, and frees Angel's soul. To me, that would explain Fred and Gunn's non-presence--they are the people that Angelus has had the least contact or issues with. Even Wesley's come across him in "Eternity." So that's my crazy little theory. I'm sure I had more to say, but that's all that makes sense right now.
[> I don't know... (spoilers for 4.10) -- Scroll, 07:41:26 01/30/03 Thu

I can't go into detail as I'm pressed for time, but I don't think Angelus could be the one providing the details, as you say. For one thing, Angelus isn't separate from Angel, they're the same person. It's not like Angelus is a separate entity who can "fool" Angel -- at least, no more than anyone suffering from self-delusion can fool himself. Angelus is simply Angel without a soul, not an individual mind. Personally I think we saw Angel's vision of a perfect day. It fits with what we know of him so far....
[> [> Yes...(spoilers for 4.10) -- Rob, 07:57:49 01/30/03 Thu

...I saw it as a sequel to "I Will Remember You" from the first season. We can compare and contrast now what Angel's perfect day would have been at that point in his life (mortal, with Buffy) with what it is now.

Rob
[> [> I could be wrong, but... (spoilers 4.10) -- Belladonna, 15:03:26 01/30/03 Thu

I didn't think Angelus is Angel without a soul. Isn't he a demon? Isn't that the way it works? You lose your soul, and a demon sets up shop in your body, using your memories and personality to define itself? Or am I wrong?
[> [> [> Re: I could be wrong, but... (spoilers 4.10) -- Peggin, 16:17:53 01/30/03 Thu

IMO, that's not how it works at all. That was the party line spouted by Giles in season one, but that's not the way things have actually played out on the screen. Trust what you've seen, not what people have told you.

When Angel was in Pylea, we saw the demon in its purest form, and it was not a sentient creature. It was feral, a wild animal, and I'm sure it plays a part in making the vampire crave violence, but there is no way that creature could be the intelligence behind the vampire.

Based on what I saw in The Prodigal, the only difference between Liam and Angelus was that Liam had a soul and Angelus didn't. Liam hated his father, and likely wished him dead a number of times. Losing his soul removed the moral restraint that had prevented him from acting on that impulse in the past, but the impulse itself came from Liam.

Angel has done a lot of horrible things himself -- Angel, not Angelus. He started out his newly re-souled life doing everything he could to try to get Darla to take him back. Why would he do this if he, *Angel*, not Angelus, didn't have a deep emotional attachment to Darla? If Angel is such a good guy, why would he decide that it was perfectly okay for him to go around killing people, as long as they fit his idea of "evil"?

Years later, this attitude didn't change. He still felt it was okay for him to walk out on an entire hotel full of people under the thrall of a paranoia demon, to lock a bunch of lawyers in a wine cellar, to kidnap and torture Linwood, and to try to smother Wesley, because each of them had done things that fit into Angel's personal definition of "evil". The only difference I see between Angelus and Angel is that not having the soul removes all limitations on who he can kill without feeling bad about it, while having a soul makes it morally acceptable for Angel to kill only those people he perceives as evildoers.
[> [> [> [> Liam is the soul. Angelus is the demon. -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:29:43 01/30/03 Thu

Angel is what results when Liam's soul and Angelus's demon occupy one body in a semi-hybrid state. If Angel becomes human, as prophecies have said, he will be all soul; Angelus will no longer be inside him. So to a certain extent Angel and Angelus are the same person, but the demon Angelus is diluted in his human soul.
[> [> [> [> [> I don't believe that for a minute... -- Peggin, 18:38:03 01/30/03 Thu

I don't believe that there is a single thing that Angel or Angelus ever did that can be blamed on the demon. Everything he ever did was already inside of him before he became a vampire. The demon keeps him alive and needs blood to survive, but the demon has no intelligent thought of its own and is not responsible for a single evil thing that Liam/Angelus/Angel ever did. It's all about the soul. If you took Liam, without a demon, and removed his soul without killing him, you would have a sadistic bastard indistinguishable from Angelus. The form of killing might change (no demon probably means no need for blood to survive) but the moster would be the same.

Remember Ryan from I've Got You Under My Skin? The human child without a soul? He was a monster. He didn't need a demon to make him a monster. All he needed was to not have a soul.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Wow, I think I totally agree -- Scroll, 19:14:47 01/30/03 Thu

This is the best scenario for examining Liam/Angelus/Angel I've seen in a long time:

If you took Liam, without a demon, and removed his soul without killing him, you would have a sadistic bastard indistinguishable from Angelus. The form of killing might change (no demon probably means no need for blood to survive) but the moster would be the same.

I think you're right on the money with this. Liam the human had a soul, but his anger and resentment towards his father continued on in Angelus, without the soul. The demon in Angelus didn't create those evil impulses of control and rage, they were inherent in Liam long before he died. If Liam the human was stripped of his soul, he would think, behave, and act just like Angelus, IMHO. If Angel the vampire was stripped of his soul, he would also think, behave, and act just like Angelus. Angelus is Liam/Angel without a soul, without moral constraints. The demon (what we saw in Pylea) is simply the magical entity that gives Angel superstrength, immortality, and bloodlust.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't believe that for a minute... -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:07:44 01/30/03 Thu

Here's how I see it: people are traditionally viewed as being made of the components of mind, body, and spirit. Obviously vampires and their human predecessors have the same body, although it goes under modification once the turning happens. They also share the same mind, since there is no change in memories, and they still seem to hold onto the intelligence and even personality of their human selves. But one thing does change when the transformation from vampire to human happens: the third part of the equation, spirit, changes from a soul into a demon.

The soul is not simply a conscience; it is the actual essence of humans, from which we view the world through or minds and bodies. However, there is a different kind of spirit: the demon. Joss Whedon, the mastermind auter behind the Buffyverse, and the closest thing to authority on any subject within its bounds, has stated the difference between souls and demons, not only on the show, but also in interviews.

"...Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. ...I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle." (Joss Whedon, 3/30/01 The 18th Annual William S. Paley Television Festival)

I'm not denying that the potential for Angelus lied within Liam. After all, personality does go with the mind, after all. The difference is that Liam was a soul (not had a soul, the actual person was a spirit of the type called "soul"), while Angelus was a demon. Liam, like all but the sociopathic, had an innate desire to do good, so he suppressed a lot of the potential evil in himself and tried to let his better aspects come out (not always successfully). Then Angelus came along, and he shared the same mind/personality as Liam. But Angelus had an innate desire to do evil, he purposely exploited the worst aspects of Liam's/his personality, and suppressed everything good in it.

So, there is a difference between simply having no soul and having a demon. While I don't think it's actually possible in the Buffyverse for someone to exist without some type of spirit (the "soulless" little boy might only have been referred to as such in a metaphorical sense by the demon), someone with neither soul nor demon would act like a total sociopath. They would be completely free of any desire or alleigance to good or evil. They would simply express their personality with total disregard for morality. Some vampires and humans have even been able to do this while still retaining their spirits (see Warren, Spike, Harmony). Having a demon in the place of a soul is different. A totally spiritless person might decide to do something good if it benefitted them or if it didn't affect them in any way to do so. However, a person with a demon might go out of his way to stop something good from happening to someone, simply because, in their mind, it's the right thing to do. Liam tried to express the better aspects of his personality, to mixed success, while Angelus expressed the worst aspects of the same personality, to almost total success. Angel is the combination of soul and demon. He has within him, along with the selfish urges the lurk in everyone, a spirit that is entirely unsure whether it wants to be good or to be evil.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think you're right. -- Arethusa, 08:27:42 01/31/03 Fri

A person with no soul would not be inclined to be either good or evil. A human (according to Whedon's defininition) would be inclined towards good. A person with a demon inside them would be inclined towards evil.

In IGYUMS Ryan seems to be a special (illogical) circumstance-amoral, with no soul, yet still inclined to evil.

Ethros lowering its hood: "Do you know what the most frightening thing in the world is? - Nothing! That's what I found in the boy... no conscience, no fear, no humanity, just a black void. I couldn't control him. (Back to the Ethros) I couldn't get out. I never even manifested until you brought me forth. I just sat there and watched as he destroyed everything around him. Not from a belief in evil, not for any reason at all."
Ethros: "That boy's mind was the blackest hell I've ever known."

What I find most illogical is Angel and Cordy saying Wes has never seen Angelus, when he did in "Eternity."

Wesley: "Angel, I want you to listen to me. What you're experiencing is not genuine. You've been fed a drug. It's simulating bliss. All that you're feeling is just chemical suggestion. (Angel slowly strolls into the dark office) Angel?"
Angel still in vamp-face: "Name's Angelus."
Cordy: " Angelus may not be the most relaxing company, but at least he's honest. Shouldn't I expect the same from the not-evil version of my friends?"

Simulated or not, they both saw Angelus, and experienced his vicious behavior.

quote by psyche, highly edited.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I still think you're wrong.... -- Peggin, 10:21:11 01/31/03 Fri

Here's how I see it: people are traditionally viewed

I'm cutting your first sentence off here, because this is where you are making a mistake. I'm going to have a hard time taking your response as a serious analysis of what we've seen on the show when you start out by referencing "traditional" beliefs. This is a television show. It doesn't operate according to your beliefs; it operates however Joss wants it to operate. You shouldn't assume the soul serves some kind of "traditional" function in a television program created by an atheist. If you want to make a serious argument as to what the soul means in the Buffyverse, you're going to have to start by forgetting everything you personally believe about the soul in the real world. Look to the show, and only to the show, for clues as to what the soul means in that universe. (Even stuff said in interviews doesn't cut it. Unless it has happened on the screen, it is not a rule of the Buffyverse.)

While I don't think it's actually possible in the Buffyverse for someone to exist without some type of spirit (the "soulless" little boy might only have been referred to as such in a metaphorical sense by the demon), someone with neither soul nor demon would act like a total sociopath. They would be completely free of any desire or alleigance to good or evil.

You're assuming that the soul is some kind of animating force, which may come from your personal beliefs, but I don't remember anything like that ever being mentioned in the show itself as a rule of the Buffyverse. Don't tell me that a "spirit" is necessary for the person to exist in the Buffyverse unless you can point me towards something that has happened in the show that would support that belief.

I'm not saying for 100% certain that my interpretation is "right", just that your interpretation leaves a lot of big gaping questions in my mind. There are a lot of things from the show that convince me that the soul is *not* the same as the spirit, or the "essesnce" of the person in Joss's world. All of those questions are answered for me by my conclusion that the soul is nothing but a conscience. If you want to convince me otherwise, maybe you can address some of the following questions for me in the context of what we know about the Buffyverse.

1. I thought IGYUMS was pretty clear on the issue that Ryan, literally, had no soul. We were told that Ryan had no soul, that there was no demon inside of him (well, not after the exorcism), but he was still a completely evil child. Can you point to anything, other than inserting your own personal beliefs into the Buffyverse, that would imply that they meant this to be purely metaphorical?

2. You don't think the vast majority of vampires act like total sociopaths? Watch Spike killing the Annoying One, or killing demons just because he likes killing and he can't kill anything else, and tell me that's not the work of a sociopath. What is your definition of sociopath?

3. In I Will Remember You, we saw Angel, completely human, with the demon gone and with a heartbeat and everything. He was indistinguishable from Angel the vampire with a soul, personality-wise, it was the exact same guy. If the demon is as important as you believe it is, shouldn't losing the demon have changed Angel in some way? How did losing the demon change Angel? What does the demon contribute to the person "Angel" is, other than superpowers, immortality, and a need for blood?

4. If you are right about the fact that having neither a soul nor a demon would make someone a sociopath, then why is it any different for someone who has both of those things? If the demon (rather that just the lack of a soul) is what pulls vampires towards evil, then why doesn't it seem to have the same effect on Angel and Spike? If your interpretation is right, I would expect to see all soulless vampires pulled irresistably towards evil (which would, IMO, have made it not just extraordinary, but literally impossible, for Spike to decide to get a soul), all humans pulled irresistably towards good (which would make it very difficult to explain people like Ethan Rayne or Warren), and anyone with both of those things being pulled in both directions simultaneously and therefore essentially neutral -- neither good nor evil. What am I misunderstanding about your interpretation that would explain why this doesn't happen?
[> [> [> [> You have to seperate -- lunasea, 06:35:17 01/31/03 Fri

anything said about vampires S1&2 of Buffy and anything that comes afterwards. It wasn't until the end of S2 that Joss started thinking spin-off. Seeing David's amazing acting ability (and what he had to do this week was not easy) led him to think that David could carry his own show.

Starting with "Doppelgangerland" we get a bit more about what makes a vampire. When Willow is freaked about how her vampire is (and may be gay), Buffy tries to reassure her using the S1-2 party lines. Angel tries to correct her, but Buffy gives him a look. Fx doesn't show that. Pity. It is the break between vamps as a plot device and vamps as real characters.

This season we will find out a lot more about the Buffyverse, including what is a vampire and what is the soul's relationship to the demon. Angel will need that in order to get some sort of peace after torturing his friends this season.

Darla says in "The Prodigal," "What we once were informs all that we have become."

That is the key to vampires. Vampires are Ga'oulds. They don't possess their victims. They are more like an infection, as aspect of the demon. That aspect is built on what the human was. To understand the vamp, understand the human. William wasn't a sweet sensitive poet. He was a FOOL (for love). That explains all his "good" actions. Dru wanted above all else to be pure and good. As a vamp, she wants to be mega-evil.

Want to understand Angel? He is still craving his father's approval. He wants to be someone. Angel's redemption lies in getting beyond this.
[> Re: Angel's 'Awakening'? -- maddog, 11:06:47 01/30/03 Thu

But doesn't it make more sense that the Shaman was letting Angel view the one that Angel never thought he could? I'm sure that's the one dream that Angel never fully has because he thinks it would never be possible. I think you're making a very simple situation much more complex. Wouldn't we making much less of a leap to think that the Shaman was the just the catalyst he needed to think of all these things. And besides, Angelus doesn't exist unless Angel is soulless. So how would he be helping the SHaman if he didn't exist yet?
Is this a silly question? (Spoilers for 'Awakening' and 'Eternity') -- Marie, 08:06:24 01/30/03 Thu

Please forgive me if this was addressed in the latest episode, but can anyone tell me why they just didn't give Angel a dose of the drug the actress gave him in the episode entitled 'Eternity', way back when.

That time, the drug only turned Angel into Angelus for a short time - a far more controllable way, I'd've thought, than taking his soul away and keeping it bottled up! They'd just need to keep him in chains for a day or so, hopefully getting the information they need about the Beast. (Which leads me into - why do they think Angelus would tell them anything, anyway?)

Is this explained in the episode you're all discussing today?

Marie

p.s. I'm so frustrated at having to wait to see this!!! Aaaaaargh!
[> Re: Is this a silly question? (Spoilers for 'Awakening' and 'Eternity') -- Rob, 08:15:18 01/30/03 Thu

The easiest answer is they probably didn't think of it.

But the other would be that that was a "synthetic-Angelus" and perhaps would not have the knowledge of the Beast they need.

Rob
[> On a similar note... (Spoilers for 'Awakening' and 'Eternity') -- Darby, 08:48:00 01/30/03 Thu

I wondered the same thing. I also wonder why anyone who's had contact with Angelus would think that he could be trusted to help in this situation. And if Lorne couldn't access what they needed through "The Night the Lights went Out in Georgia," why do they think a reawakened Angelus will?

And, if Cordy accessed the memories while with the PtB, why isn't anyone suggesting that they be consulted about this? Do the Powers want this everlasting night thingee? - Heck, if they do, that itself would be kinda valuable to know...

We never did find out if Willow's truth spell would work on a vampire...or whether the many reveal spells might work...anybody wanna try a crystal ball?

Hey, I'm as pumped about Angelus as anybody else, but this is stretching things a bit.

On a side note, I knew nothing about the twist in Awakening, other than knowing that at some point we would be seeing Angelus (I spent about 10 minutes thinking Angelus was pretending to be Angel), and I've got to say, it's nice to be unspoiled - that ending was a Whoosh! moment!

What I like about the show this year is that it has taken on a bit of the adventure serial, pulling me into the ride. The move to Wednesday (I know I'll watch it again today with my son) serves to disconnect some of the detached analytical parts of my brain - the not-quite-reasonable parts of the fantasy were peeping in the background, but not loud enough for me to quite see the ending coming. Fun!
[> [> Re: Yes.. How can PTB let.. (Spoilers for 'Awakening') -- Sang, 10:17:41 01/30/03 Thu

It really bugged me from last week actually. How can PtB let this things happen? First of all, priority! They erased Cordy's memory about beast and left details of Gwen/Angel smoothies. Then they just slip a bit of the memory. And now AI decided to let Angelus back?

Why didn't PtB just let Cordy remember the all details of beast/Angelus interaction?
[> [> [> Re: Yes.. How can PTB let.. (Spoilers for 'Awakening') -- maddog, 10:23:51 01/30/03 Thu

Does anyone get that by letting all these things "just happen" as you'd like...the easy way...the storyline wouldn't be half as fascinating. Besides, I think they all need to get a wif of what Angelus is like, especially Connor. Maybe then he'll get the difference between the man that gave him life, and the demon that he was supposed to be.
[> [> [> [> They aren't our babysitters -- lunasea, 05:54:23 01/31/03 Fri

The most criticism I see of AtS tends to revolve around the PTB. Why didn't they do X or why did they let Y happen?

Aren't those the same questions we ask about a just god?

My own answer is that if the PTB did everything for us is that a world worth saving? It is one of the consequences of Free Will. If they do things for us, that overrides us. We have to make the beds we lie in.
[> Because the American government currently gets very irate about drug use in network TV -- KdS, 09:09:46 01/30/03 Thu

[> [> And 'Drugs make you an evil (but happy about it), soulless killer' sends the wrong message-? -- Darby, 09:12:40 01/30/03 Thu

[> Re: Is this a silly question? (Spoilers for 'Awakening' and 'Eternity') -- maddog, 10:19:29 01/30/03 Thu

Well I'd say it's the storyline factor. How boring would it have been to just make him Angelus. Wasn't it much more exciting to go at least part way(depending on how cynical you are) through that episode thinking that it was the real story? I actually didn't get it until rewinding my tape to hear what the Shaman said(I'd missed it the first time and was completely confused). Though a smarter viewer(to which I am one sometimes) would have noticed that everyone gave in too easily. Monster too easy to kill. Connor forgave Angel to quickly, and even Gunn and Angel seemed to have forgiven Wesley. I guess I was just hoping. But then BAM...back to reality. A great twist.

As for not thinking he'll give them any intentional help. I'm sure they'll try. But we all know Angelus. He'd rather play. And I'm sure he will. I have a feeling they'll end up having to follow him to the beast and find out what they need to know the hard way.
[> Re: Is this a silly question? (Spoilers for 'Awakening' and 'Eternity') -- grifter, 15:48:34 01/30/03 Thu

My theory always was that what we saw in Eternity wasn´t really Angelus, but rather Angel with his soul supressed.

Angelus = experiences of Liam + Demon
Angel = experiences of Angelus + Soul
drugged up Angel = Angel - Soul = experiences of Angelus (but not Angelus)

See, different thing.
[> [> Re: Is this a silly question? (Spoilers for 'Awakening' and 'Eternity') -- lunasea, 06:00:13 01/31/03 Fri

Interesting theory, but people tend to be asses when they are high or drunk. Angel is a recovering alcholic. He is a mean drunk. Get him high and he becomes that nasty person. Had nothing to do with the curse or his soul. He is just a mean drunk.

We were supposed to think he lost his soul, but an artifical high shouldn't be pure happiness. What happened had nothing to do with the curse. One moment of happiness looses the soul. The curse isn't he temporarily looses it. It is gone.

He was just being an ass. People can do this with their souls fully functioning.
[> BTW, 'Eternity' is from Season 1, for those who were worried it was an upcoming episode! -- slain, 17:51:57 01/30/03 Thu

I remembered that because I used that episode as an example not so long ago. Quite a good episode, actually, but it's one of those ones which messes things up a bit.

My flabonuitum explaination would be that when Angel was drugged, he didn't lose his soul; rather Angelus was allowed to artificially take control, similar to the way the beast took control in PLRTZ GLRB.

My 'real-life'-but-much-more-boring explanation is that episode was written by a relatively minor writer who used the soul metaphor more loosely than it's used now, three seasons later.
'I AM BTVS' , and i live in a fantasy world..... -- aquamAn, 12:21:41 01/30/03 Thu

Note the capital A in aquamAn - the singular!

I live in Buffyland. For REAL.

Over ten hours a week average for the last six months or so, which means that i watch Buffy more than i socialize. If i, then, tend to over-identify with the btvs universe, it is not madness, just experience.

I love reading the deconstructions and metaphors on this board, because they're cool poems and because it is a way of thinking that i am not very good at. I tend to take things at face value, not as representative. That is to say, I consider the btvs reality to BE reality. There's only two real differences, far as I can tell.

If you look at BEHAVIOR of the characters in objective way, there really isn't much that doesn't happen on the reality channel - we have human predators, killers, sociopaths, vigilanties, outlaws, evil military researchers, etc. Only the 'interpretation' is different - in btvs, metaphysical attributes are actual things, and that is uncertain here. The only other difference is the ability some characters have to subvert physics by magick, or whatnot. Otherwise, real. So it is hard for me, say, to look at the moral ambiguity in btvs as representative of any philosophy, ie. Rather, I see it as 'reflective' of the actual state of affairs. Likewise, if a psychology theory or science theory or mystic tradition, etc., seems to play out on btvs, my literal mind doesn't think that this was intended -or not intended. I just never go there, without a little push. I just assume it is because those theories were designed to represent our reality, and btvs IS part of that reality. I don't process cause and effect except as a given experience. I only see temporal priority - that is, one thing can be known to come before another, but that doesn't predicate causality. And if there is cause - if I do, say, figure out a theme of the writers, my 'point-by-point' correlation of 'show action' to 'theme' will not likely be EXACTLY what the writers meant, consistently throughout. Does this make sense??

Say, for example, I notice that USA law is organized and named EXACTLY like the mosaic law in the bible - prohibitions, defined by 'statutes and ordinances,' plus a civil law, dealing mostly with property/contract disputes. The bible was religious, and therefore had some 'requirements' that we don't have, but the rest is the same. Now, say I notice the same structure existing on whatever level in btvs. I can draw MANY conclusions, but they are mostly speculative. The conclusion i actually did draw is:

The bible came before the USA, which came before Buffy. It seems ALMOST certain that our founding fathers borrowed their law forms directly from the bible they all read and lived by, at least publicly. 99.999999999999999% certain!! If i see other similar patterns, It is because I live in USA, and there are LOTS of Juddeo-Christian folks and influences in USA. As for btvs, that part of the equation is just non-existent for me - already covered. Buffy lives in the USA. Other causal connections are uncertain.

As for moral ambiguity - that is for real, not a btvs invention. moral ambiguity in reality is identicle to that in btvs - only the players' powers to act, and their metaphysical certainties are different. Our, and btvs, moral ambiguity arises mostly from "FRAMING" concerns. That is, Jewish and USA law, which we have structured our world views in the context of, hold it as their ideal that all citizens are equal under the law, and to break the law is anywhere from disruptive to inconsequential to downright evil (mass murder, ie). Great. But how do we justify breaking the law if, say, we want to go to war, or punish criminals?? The answer is that the law ONLY APPLIES TO "US" - Jews could kill Canaanites, and it wasn't murder. Same with usa and Vietnamese, not long ago. We call some folks "other", or even, like the nazis, classify them as not-quite-human, and then morality doesn't apply to them, or to us in our treatment of them.

Check out vampires, ie. Are they different from humans?? Actually, they ARE humans, assimilated just as if by the Borg on Star Trek. Angel is even proof of human ability to restore humanity to these 'people' who have been violated. Even if they agreed to turn, they can't possibly have known what they were in for. So why does Xander feel justified in hating Angel when he is with soul?? Why not consider him 'redeemed,' or, actually, a fallen brother brought back from a horror? Why did the gypsies 'curse' him with the return of soul, instead of 'rescue' him?? Why isn't Angel as respected and empathized with as Seven of Nine?? In fact, if they can restore souls to vampires, why don't they bring back all of our lost human beings, or at least as many as possible? Why don't the scoobies report their findings to the authorities, who can develop 'curses of mass reconstruction' as it were and rescue these PEOPLE??

Further, why is it not noticed that these 'un dead/living' creatures are still acting out human morality, better that u? If living humans are taught that preserving life is the greatest good and bringing death is the greatest evil, why should we think that this is objective?? Obviously, life will honor life above all else - such is the morality of 'us.' So when a vampire is sired, and becomes an entity who is animate, but quite dead, isn't it only right that they should cling to death as we do life, revel in bringing death as we do giving life, consider destructive violence the ultimate moral act??? Think of Spike lamenting that had Dru really loved him, she would have killed him. If you frame the vampires, and grant them a self-defined ontological status equal to that humans give themselves, then they are much more moral than humans, and Spike is -was, that is - the epitome of the moral person, er, vampire. Killing him would have been morally objective, to him, and morally justifiable, to us. The chip was evil, from either view - that is, if you no longer think animal experiments are acceptable, esp. in order to develope weapons, not cures.

After years of fighting the good fight with the slayer, when she became so powerful, why did Willow not use her magic to slay many vamps/demons - or, better, to restore their souls and their humanity to them??? Why does Xander forgive her and love her unconditionally, yet feel equally unconditioned in his hate of angel - why not forgive, or note lack of responsibity? Because he is a racist, simply. Or not simply - how many real racists are obsessed with, say, "those others having sex with OUR women..."? And like a racist, though he despises the evil 'others,' he isn't too superior to have sex with an ex-demon if she's attractive and willing. But marry??!! Of course, what little humanity he granted her with his need for penile gratification was rescinded when she slept with another benign 'other.' Is Xander, then, representaive of racist mindsets, which do, in reality, seem to revolve around issues of reproductive conformity? Or is he just a racist -non-representative, just the actual thing in itself?

Do I relate to these people because they represent theories about alienation in society, or just because they are socially alienated, and so am I??? Did Willow go bad with power because Freud theorized that the rationalizing superego, if given power to transgress without impediment, will give in completely to the id and still call every action moral?? Or did Freud analyze Willow to arrive at his conclusions??

OOps - there's that pesky division in time. subjects of study came before theory came before btvs, in our physics. But 'cause' and 'representation' are two attributes that can only be assumed prejudicially - even if the writers tell us an elaborate tale after the series ends, how will we know they didn't deconstruct after the fact, and claim intent? We have no way, except pure trust or perhaps official documentation-as-evidence, to know whether the series or such a claimed theory even came prior to the other.

Of course, It is an obvious, undeniable fact that Xander-Buffy-Willow represents id-ego-superego. That's the god's honest truth!

I spend too much time talking to the fishes, getting swept away in the current.....
[> Oh my... -- Random, 15:46:59 01/30/03 Thu

Well, aquamAn, I must say that you've certainly staked out an interesting position. Not that I'm quite ready to make the plunge from my own life to an immersion in the fictional world of the Buffyverse, given that the friends I socialize with tend to be a lot more huggable than the images on the Glass Teat. Distinguishing between two parallel realities seems a lot simpler when you take into account the fact that one of them contains people who know your name and favorite pizza toppings(yes, Heinlein had his own theories about reality versus fiction, but then, he was writing fiction 'imself, so it gets a little hectic, metaphysically speaking.) But de gustibus, I suppose.

While I haven't the mental energy to address everything you said -- it was a rather disjointed post, my friend :-)-- moral relativism is hardly an astonishing perspective in this post-existentialist, post-Age of Aquarius world, but I think that one must consider other issues than morality. Masq herself (congratulations, Masq, you've earned the coveted reflective pronoun as a last name. From now on, I'll be referring to you as Ms. Masquerade Herself)...anyway, Masq Herself has written a pretty lucid examination of the concept of vampires, free-will, and the right of self-defense. Ontologically speaking, vampires are a reality in the Buffyverse, like it or not. And yes, they clearly have their own value systems and modes of conduct...which begs the question of morality. Morality, after all, is a human creation. We need not assume that other "species" (technically, post-mortem human cum demon beef stock) partake of such a system, nor do we need to give them the benefit of a doubt merely because they happen to exist. We can -- indeed, must -- take into account their actions rather than merely rationalizing their motives. The Nazi who believes he is creating a utopia nevertheless answers at Nuremburg for his methods, while Thomas More writes about a Utopia and nobody gets particularly upset.

But Xander's racism is an interesting idea. Yes, the show's basic dictum is that vampires are evil killers, and in that light, Xander's vociferous reactions are understandable, laudable even. Hell, even Oz says, in his dry, laconic, utterly hilarious way, (talking to Faith upon first meeting her) "You both kill vampires, and who could blame you..." (This, incidentally, is one of my favorite Oz moments -- Seth delivers the little aside beautifully.) Anyhow, back to the point: Xander has shown extreme irrationality in his approach to Angel and Spike, and that has been discussed endlessly here on the board, but the issue of prejudice in a more general sense has a certain relevancy. In times past, he tendef to reject the other rather quickly -- note his not-so-latent homophobia (coupled with his oh-so-close-to-latent homosexual tendencies.) He reacted rather than rationalizing and generally tended to favor an insular, reactionary perspective. His initial dislike of Oz, his immediate dislike of Angel and Spike...well, the Spike one was rather understandable, seeing as Spike tried to kill all his friends. But Xander as a prime example of a backwoods cracker who grew up without seeing the "other" quickly fades. He accepts Oz fairly quickly...indeed, it was only after they discover Oz's wolfyness that Xander actually seems to really take to Oz. Of course, he does understand the whole doggy lust for the kill thing...:-) Xander accepted Riley -- with some reasonable reservations about his role in the Initiative. He accepts Tara -- with some reasonable interest in her's and Willow's sex life. Xander as a racist just doesn't hold up well. You can, of course, interpret his relationship and subsequent break-up with Anya in any manner you please, but the preponderance of the evidence seems to point to other factors. All art is interpretive (re your post below, eh), but the mistake that more than a few English grad students make is assuming that interpretation trumps intent without fail. Not quite...interpretation takes place within a template created by the artists. Stray too far outside those boundaries and you are no longer talking about the art, just yourself.

The alienation of the other is clearly an issue of self-defense, considering the show as a whole. Benign demons -- however inscrutable (Whistler, Doyle, Clem, numerous demons on AtS, et cetera) are left to their own devices. While this certainly must be considered in light of the relationship of their nature to human nature (most are clearly more human-like than, say, Acathala) it is not a stretch to say that the issue boils down to whether they pose an physical threat to humanity. True, they might expect just as much of a threat to themselves were they to fall into the hands of humans, but we cannot merely extrapolate probable sociological behaviours in order to justify killing creatures that actively seek out the destruction of humans. I'm not wild about the idea of cozying up to the Judge or the Beast. They may have their own system of morality (not quite following your argument that morality merely means following your own nature, but...) and still be considered a threat to be destroyed.

(Incidentally, vampires may be "dead" physiologically, but they are certainly animate and in possession of many of the same logical processes and memories of their living predecessors, and are capable of acting in totally unpredictable manners -- which, I suspect, most would find to be parallel to humans. Is "life" the issue, or "behaviour?" If vampires were merely walking -- but non-decayed -- corpses who acted as the same as they did in a "living" state, the characters of BtVS and AtS probably wouldn't have quite as many issues with them. They may revel in 'death' but that's not an inevitable state of affairs. Death is merely a state of being, not a mode of thought. Perhaps you could clarify your point...)

Anyway, this is all just space filler, ultimately. I'm bored and wanna write something. My points have been discussed since the inception of the show, and in much more insightful and original terms than this post can boast. I like the idea of 'racism' -- I'm just not convinced that it's more than a flawed metaphor.
[> [> A truly delightful post! -- Rahael, 20:38:34 01/30/03 Thu

Space filler? I hope you get bored more often.
[> [> Re: Lions and Tigers and Bears! Oh my! -- Deb, 00:14:01 01/31/03 Fri

Rather, I see it as 'reflective' of the actual state of affairs.

A reflection gives only a scewered view of reality. Any thing that is a "mirror" image is not real. If you go through the Looking Glass, is there a Looking Glass where you went through to? This is why I have a problem with the term "mirror universe." It's a Shadow universe, but then prespective determines which universe is real and which is shadow. Then there is your argument that they are one and the same............No time to flesh out this one. : )
[> Time as a meandering river? Hmmm, I doubt it -- Celebaelin, 16:00:58 01/30/03 Thu

Whilst I'll grant you that it is tempting to believe that there is sense in all we see I think rationality dictates that you are honest with yourself about the co-incidences which you (both general and personal) yourself create. If you disregard the possibility of blind chance and assign everything to an unconscious expression of a greater overall meaning then the best summation of that idea that I can think of is surely that of ARCHETYPES. Deliberate invocation of characters of a somewhat universal nature could of course lead to a convergance of view that mimics reality to a greater or lesser extent within the confines (or rather lack of confines) of the Buffyverse, isn't that the object of the exercise from a writing point of view after all?

In essence what I'm saying is that subjectivity need not necessarily be the whole explanation, particularly not if life isn't an isolated pure thought exercise. Personally I think there's much to be said for the three lifelines - go 50/50, phone a friend or ask the audience.
[> Re: 'I AM BTVS' , and i live in a fantasy world..... -- John, 20:21:20 01/30/03 Thu

Say, for example, I notice that USA law is organized and named EXACTLY like the mosaic law in the bible - prohibitions, defined by 'statutes and ordinances,' plus a civil law, dealing mostly with property/contract disputes. The bible was religious, and therefore had some 'requirements' that we don't have, but the rest is the same. Now, say I notice the same structure existing on whatever level in btvs. I can draw MANY conclusions, but they are mostly speculative. The conclusion i actually did draw is:

The bible came before the USA, which came before Buffy. It seems ALMOST certain that our founding fathers borrowed their law forms directly from the bible they all read and lived by, at least publicly. 99.999999999999999% certain!! If i see other similar patterns, It is because I live in USA, and there are LOTS of Juddeo-Christian folks and influences in USA. As for btvs, that part of the equation is just non-existent for me - already covered. Buffy lives in the USA. Other causal connections are uncertain.

Actually, the law in most states of the US is based on English Common Law as of July 4, 1776. That may or may not be based on biblical concepts, but it is the English legal concepts that are the basis of our laws. The major exception is that of Lousiana, which is based on French Civil Code law (The Napoleonic Code)

The fact that English common law is the basis for our law is one of the reasons that our law schools, such as Harvard, say that they can train lawyers to practice in all common law countries.

Some states, such as Florida, have, in effect, abolished the common law and gone to an entirely statutory system, but the basis of the law is still the common law. Other states, such as my state of Maryland, is still very much a common law state, and English precedents can still apply.

A quick distinction between common law and code law is that common law is based on a body of court decisions and precedents established over time. Code law is based on a code enacted by the legislature, and the courts interpret the code. Of course, the law is mixed in the common law countries and states because they all have legislatures which enact laws.

Interesting post with a lot of good ideas. Thanks for posting it.
[> [> Re: 'I AM BTVS' , and i live in a fantasy world..... -- aquaman, 01:00:37 01/31/03 Fri

Actually, both english common law and usa law are derived from mosaic law. In form. In content and temporality, the derivation is, of course, linear - but the bible is still the source.

In reality, the usa founders were convinced, or used political means to convince their new constituency, that the usa was returning to a more god-inspired form of the law, without all that royalty baggage. mosaic law was more across-the-board equally applied to all citizens. And, more important, judges and the body of 'common law' that developed around their precedents were not in the service of royal necessity, but were bound by the constitution, if you will, of the code itself. "Checks and balances" was not part of english system, but was part of the mosaic system.

Buffy has checks and balances, not just precedent, so she is an american, thru and thru. If her view seems to lead to inappropriate actions, she is willing to go back and reexamine the view. If she is exclusionary or has pre-conceived notions that don't bear out in reality, she will welcome new ideas that are more valid - or just equally valid, or food for thought. She also, like the usa, but unlike old english law, allows for a multiplicity of views, with the fewest possible constraints on free expression. Her only real constraint is not physically harming anybody who is not a direct threat.

Xander, on the other hand, is perfectly willing to stske Angel -with-soul, as well as Spike-with-chip. This comes to a head when he sleeps with Anya. What i was saying wasn't that xander IS a racist, black and white, at all times. What i'm saying is that these actions of xander's represent that aspect of racist hate that seems to stem directly from sexual insecurity - the old 'i can live with 'em, but they better stay away from 'our' women' complex. which is just a way of saying 'i am insecure, and i feel better about myself when i compare myself to that 'other' who i see as lower than me, but that illusion is threatened when i see that 'other' having what i cannot have.' Buffy's love of Angel is very threatening to xander. If her rejection makes him feel unworthy, her rejection, then acceptance of a vampire makes him feel that THE SLAYER herself thinks he isn't as mate-able as a VAMPIRE. How humiliating!

It is not by this childish neurotic behavior that i judge xander. I judge him each week according to how he handles himself and learns from his experiences, in spite of his childish impulses. In short, he ain't perfect, but does he grow, or does he stagnate or devolve?? I think the Spike - Anya scene was a devolution for xander. I think season 1, where he goes to get Angel's help to rescue Buffy, was aa supreme act of a maturing child, who put his insecurity away when it would have been inappropriate to act childishly.

Buffy, on the other hand, seems to be the most stringent about not harming un-threatening vamps and demons. Maybe because she is, metaphysically, of their world?? "her power is rooted in darkness" so if sshe can be good, then so can the other dark forces. she is always very adamant about this
[> Okay, I have so many problems with the interpetation... -- Rob, 21:46:33 01/30/03 Thu

...of vamps being symbolic of a human racial minority, I can't even begin to tell you.

Well, actually I can. Here's a post of mine from early January where I dealt with this same issue:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Misrepresentation of Buffyverse Vampires & Demons in Academia -- Rob, 14:19:14 12/05/02 Thu

I'm probably opening up a whole big controversial can of worms here--actually, I know I am, since we've had discussions about this before--but, while reading "Fighting the Forces," I became very disturbed by a particular essay, "The Undemonization of Supporting Characters," in which the author casually referenced a source that claims that "Buffy" is racist. She went on to demonstrate how the show was not racist; her examples included things such as the Initiative plotline and Spike, and the overall greying of the good/bad delineations in the Buffyverse. And yet the author still claimed that vampires and demons are symbolic of "race in American society; the characters' successful and unsuccessful attempts to deal with the Other often illuminate the ways in which society may come to terms with differences in race, culture, and lifestyle." Throughout the essay, she continually repeated the idea that the vampires and demons on "Buffy" are symbolic of minority races.

While I will acknowledge that, at times, the treatment of vampires and demons have been used to demonstrate racism--examples include, from "Buffy," the Initiative arc, and from "Angel," the Scourge from "Hero" and Gio from "That Old Gang of Mine"--I think that to make such a sweeping gesture as to say that all vamps and demons on "Buffy" at all times represent minorities is not only an overgeneralization, but robs other, deeper layers of meaning from this incredibly complex show. Metaphors do not remain constant on "Buffy." Just look at all the different things magic has been used to represent!

An interpretation of vampires as the minority, of course, paints Buffy as an evil figure, wiping out those other races trying to converge on white society. While this is a convenient argument, I think it ignores a great deal, particularly regarding vampires. For starters, "Buffy" is a show about growing up, and all the trials and tribulations the characters go through in the process of growing up. And what are Vampires? Things that will, in the "natural" course of events, live forever. They can be seen as representational of the fears Buffy and the SG have upon growing up--that they will become cold, soulless things also, as many adults in their world seem to be. Principal Snyder is not much different than a vampire. What I've always felt to be the important part of the vampire symbol is that vampires were once just like us, but were changed into demonic things. The "minority" symbol doesn't do justice to this very important part of the "Buffy" mythology, the fear that one day we will give into our darkness as well and also become vampires. Yes, Vampires are societal Others, but they are Others who used to be members in the society. Minorities, on the other hand are considered societal Others from the get-go; they are not members of society who were transformed into something else, as vampires are, but have always been perceived as different, be it because of the color of their skin, the sound of their accent, or their religion.

This also ignores the fact that Buffy and the SG were also shown as societal Others, and that the two groups (Buffy and her friends/demons, vamps) were meant to parallel each other from the beginning. It was again one of the first clues on the show that a souled creature is not necessarily good, an unsouled is not necessarily evil. Buffy and her friends, from the start, were shown in a similar position, in the high school microcosm, as the beings that they fight.

I think that it is easy to find racism in just about any piece of art. If you look for it, you can find it. If you try to find a very surfacey symbol--that because vamps and demons run in gangs and harm people in the society, that they are villainized versions of minorites, done to promote, as propaganda, the idea that minorities are monsters--you can find it. But that ignores so much. I'm very glad that Sunnydale is being portrayed as more multi-cultural this season, because it further hammers home the point that vampires and demons do not = Blacks, Hispanics, etc. A white person, a black person, a Hispanic person, a Jewish person, an Asian person...they all could be turned into vampires. Vampires are not the Other of White Society, but are the Others of the Entire World, feeding on the outskirts of every society. Vampires and Demons are the darkness within Ourselves.

Rob
[> [> Agree. The vampire metaphor -- shadowkat, 08:17:49 01/31/03 Fri

For starters, "Buffy" is a show about growing up, and all the trials and tribulations the characters go through in the process of growing up. And what are Vampires? Things that will, in the "natural" course of events, live forever. They can be seen as representational of the fears Buffy and the SG have upon growing up--that they will become cold, soulless things also, as many adults in their world seem to be. Principal Snyder is not much different than a vampire. What I've always felt to be the important part of the vampire symbol is that vampires were once just like us, but were changed into demonic things. The "minority" symbol doesn't do justice to this very important part of the "Buffy" mythology, the fear that one day we will give into our darkness as well and also become vampires. Yes, Vampires are societal Others, but they are Others who used to be members in the society.

I agree. While an argument can be made that demons on the Angel Series are metaphors for racial prejudices - this is definitely NOT true on Btvs. (The writers have gone out of their way to show us that the metaphor deals with arrested development - see Lie To Me, Season 2 Btvs, or the whole Annoited One arc in Season 1 Btvs, or even the Spike/Dru characters and Darla in the Catholic Girl uniform and the vamps at the Bronze in Harvest or look at The Wish and all the black leather and pool shooting - it's like looking at a biker gang.) The metaphors on Btvs tend to be slanted towards growing up. Vampire - has always been a metaphor for two things on Btvs - the fear of growing older and
the desire to do whatever you want without being controlled by rules or authority. The Vampire = is the teenage hoodlum, the gang member, the kid who never comes to class - who does whatever they want - and is only out at night and sleeps all day long. They are the "evil" Peter Pan - tempting everyone to stay in Never Never Land - live forever, stay young forever, take,want, have forever...
They also are a metaphor for all those unruly hormones teens have - like the crush on the teacher or desire to just have sex, addictions to drugs and alcohol. The Vampire = is the cool evil teen monster who refuses to grow up.
It has never been a metaphor for race.

The old monsters - who look rodent like or bat-like - symbolize what happens to you if you hold on to high school pains forever, if you never move on, never grow up - after a while you become the monster. Sort of like the Picture of Dorian Gray - you look great for a very very long time, but after a while the monster inside you begins to break out and you look more and more like it. ie = the price you pay for being evil Peter Pan - is someday you'll turn into Captain Hook.

For the writers - (as seen in FX blurbs) - the demons are metaphors for adolescent desires and fears. If we have lust - we find a lust demon, etc. To see it as a metaphor for the minority or racial other is projecting something on to the show that is simply not there and not supported by anything in the writing, characters, or design.
What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Wizard, 14:19:52 01/30/03 Thu

What are your 5 favourite Buffy moments in these categories (in any or no particular order):

a) Funniest
b) Saddest
c) Happiest
d) Most Frightening/Creepy
e) Most Cheerworthy
f) Most Romantic
g) Overall favourite

They can be moments, or whole scenes, but if they are whole scenes then please say so. Thank you very much for participating.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Rob, 15:17:23 01/30/03 Thu

a) Funniest--Hush--when Xander thinks Buffy's "stake" pantomime is something a little bit different.

b) Saddest--end of IWMTLY/start of Body: "Mom? Mom?...Mommy?" I could barely type that w/o tearing up. (Close runner-ups: Becoming II--"Buffy?" "Just close your eyes." Don't get me started! and Willow's fight w/ Oz in "Wild at Heart")

c) Happiest--Have there been any? lol. I guess I'd have to say Doppelgangland, when Buffy and Xander realize Willow isn't dead and run and hug her. Of course, the clincher is when Willow asks Giles what's wrong with them, and HE runs and hugs her!!

d) Most Frightening/Creepy--Tie: Gentlemen removing the boy's heart in "Hush" and Gnarl peeling off Willow's skin and slurping it up in STSP

e) Most cheerworthy--The Gift--Spike appears at the last moment at the top of the tower to battle Doc

f) Most Romantic--OMWF--Under Your Spell...need I say more?

g) Overall favorite--so far? Anya's speech in "The Body."
[> [> And my favorite Angel moments! -- Rob, 19:45:00 01/30/03 Thu

a) Funniest--Angel's goodbye present to Lindsay (the sign on the back of his car) in "Dead End"

b) Saddest--Hero--Doyle's death. *sob* 'scuse me, I'm getting ferklempt; moving right along...

c) Happiest--Certainly not what happened after Angel's tryst with Darla in "Reunion"...Yuk, yuk, yuk. I'll be here all week, folks! But seriously, the glee of Angel trying junk food and ice cream in IWRY, not to mention his elation at his ability to experience multiple moments of happiness with Buffy, with soul in tact!

d) Creepiest--the little boy in "I've Got You Under My Skin" and his attempt to kill his whole family.

e) Most Cheerworthy--the end of "Over the Rainbow" and the suprise of the queen

f) Most Romantic--sorry, anti-C/Aers, the passionately-charged possessiony scene in "Waiting in the Wings"

g) Overall favorite--Numfar, do the dance of joy!

Rob
[> Oh, this is fun! -- Flo, 15:53:01 01/30/03 Thu

If you compile a list of responses, please let us know where you put it!

Funniest -- "Ready, Randy?" "Ready, Joan."

Saddest -- Buffy telling Dawn about The Body

Happiest -- Buffy's Class Protector Award! :)

Creepiest -- Olivia being startled at the window in Hush

Cheerworthy -- Willow and Tara kissing at the end of Entropy -- yea!!!

Romantic -- Buffy's transition from fighting to loving to sacrificing Angel in the last moments of Season Two

(added category) Sexiest -- the look on both Spike and Buffy's faces when he and Buffy bring down the house in Smashed

Overall Favourite -- impossible for my mind to even come close to dealing with this kind of challenge
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Random, 16:17:13 01/30/03 Thu

a)Funniest: Oh lord, too many. But Buffy's "What else would I want to pump you for? (beat) I really just said that, didn't I?"; the entire mime-show in the classroom in "Hush" (plus Oz's dry, "Nobody deserves mime, Buffy" in "Living Conditions"); Spike's "You made a bear!" in "Pangs;" and the running gag about Angel being "evil again" in the same ep all spring to mind. Plus the scene in "Becoming" with Spike and Joyce. Absolutely priceless!

b) saddest: Buffy's reaction to seeing her mom's body in "The Body" plus Anya's speech in the same. That look on Tara's face in the moment after she's shot. On AtS -- the end of "I Will Remember You" and his moment of despair as the elevator doors open on "Reprise."

c) happiest: the moment when the Scooby Gang stands up for Tara in "Family." The scene at the end of "The Wish" where Scooby Gang was chatting outside -- no-one but the viewer understood the full power of that scene, which made it all the more poignant.

d)creepiest: no question -- "Hush," Anya's face-cutting scene in "Afterlife" and, in AtS, the little boy in "I've Got You Under My Skin."

e)most cheerworthy: Buffy standing up to the Council in "Checkpoint," Xander's moment of defiance against Angelus in "Killed by Death," and his little confrontation with Jack in the school basement in "The Zeppo." Oh and Joyce hitting Spike with an axe: "Get the hell away from my daughter!"

d)most romantic: geez, the romances on this show are twisted. How about the moment when Willow comes to Tara at the end of "New Moon Rising?" Hmmm...how about Willow's attempted seduction of Oz in "Amends." That was romantic, no? And funny, no?

e)overall favorite: probably Giles walking into a tree at the end of "Earshot" -- "Sure. We can work out after school. If you're not too busy having sex with my mother!" Or...okay, I'm cutting this off now. There are way, way too many scenes that I love on BtVS. And a few on AtS. Like Spike's monologue at the beginning of...no, no, I'm stopping now! Geez...
[> [> Okay, I changed my mind... -- Random, 20:26:32 01/30/03 Thu

I'm picking Numfar's dance of joy (and dance of shame) as my favorite in every category. Obviously it was hilarious, but the poignancy was unbelievable -- I bawled like a baby as he leapt (leaped? slayed? slew?) into the air and expressed, in a single moment, the tragedy of having great coordination and agility...but no music. Of course, it was the dance of joy, so it was a supremely happy moment. And that much happiness just creeps me out, so.... However, I did cheer (through my tears, of course) as he managed to complete his feat of pure dancing joy. And I perceived -- as any of the "thinks-too-much" people on the board should be able to sympathize with -- a subtextual allusion to a mating dance. ME propensity for multilayered metaphor cannot be ignored. What is a mating dance, after all, but a dance of joy? At least I get a certain joy out of mating. So I found it terribly romantic. And last, but not least, since it took top marks in all categories, it seems inevitable that the dance of joy would have to be my favorite overall.

(This post is dedicated to Numfar...who taught me so much in so little time. I know that somewhere, Numfar, you are doing the dance of perplexity, but just accept my accolades and be happy (and do the dance of effervescence.)
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Apophis, 16:30:19 01/30/03 Thu

Funniest - Almost all of Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered.

Saddest - Hands down, the end of Becoming 2.

Happiest - Angel beating the crap out of Riley in The Yoko Factor.

Creepiest - Everyone dying in The Wish.

Cheerworthy - Giles' enterance in Two to Go.

Romantic - Angel and Buffy consumating things in Surprise ('course, I didn't know what would come next...).

Overall favorite - When Angel and Buffy reveal their conjob to Faith in Enemies.
[> [> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Nascent, 17:30:12 01/30/03 Thu

Funniest - All of the Willow/Anya interaction from "Triangle" and the Great Bergman-like flashbacks from "Selfless." Then again, it's the quirky little moments that first attracted me to the show. The Mayor: "We don't *knock* during dark rituals?" Buffy: "Hey Ken, wanna see my impression of Gandhi?" Ouch.

Saddest - Along with Buffy discovering her mom in "The Body", the look on her face at the end of "Forever" when she thinks for a split second that her mom is at the door and maybe the speel really worked and then she swings the door open to ...nothing... Manipulative? Maybe. But it gets me every time.

Happiest - The Willow/Buffy bonding at the end of "Choices".

Creepiest - Was there ever a creepier visual than the Gentlemen and their lunatic minions floating through Sunnydale choosing which home to pay a visit to? As a not to distant second, Cassie/FE's little "I'm over it and I'm going for a big finish speech" at the end of CWDP - also pegged into the red on my creep-o-meter.

Cheerworthy - Buffy laying down the law to the Council at the end of "Checkpoint"/The entire Scooby Gang laying down the law to Tara's relatives at the end of "Family."

Romantic - Willow and Oz and then Willow and Tara at the end of "New Moon Rising". It only seems contradictory. The "Istanbul" speech still makes me uncharacteristically sniffly...

Overall favorite - Can "Restless" in its entirety count as a Buffy "moment"?
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:13:41 01/30/03 Thu

Funniest: Well, there's the scene between Giles and Spike in Tabula Rasa which includes the memorable lines Spike: "God, how I must hate you." Giles: "What did I ever do?" Spike: "There's always a reason." But then there's Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered when Xander is walking through the hallways and all of the girls (and some of the guys) are staring at him. But then I must give kudos to the last scene of Living Conditions where Buffy looks at Willow eating the sandwich (the camera work made this one funny more than what was actually happening). And our latest contender is the scene where Buffy and Spike wrestle for the bazooka in Him.

Saddest: My definite favorite in this category is when Buffy tells Dawn that Joyce is dead. But I also deeply love the end of Becoming II (from Angel's resouling till the very end), as well as the end of the Gift.

Happiest: Bit of a more difficult category. The only one that really comes to mind is the end of I Robot, You Jane where Buffy, Xander, and Willow laugh over their failed relationships.

Creepiest: Hands down I give the award to the end of Conversations With Dead People, with it's interspersing of Dawn in the ruins of the house, Buffy killing Holden, the First Evil vanishing, and Andrew killing Jonathan. But I also have to praise the end of Lessons where the First Evil gives its "all about power" speech, as well as the scene from Invisible Girl where Marcie vanishes.

Cheerworthiest: The award speech of The Prom, Buffy's march to the school in Prophecy Girl, and, well, for the best in this category see my favorite overall.

Romanticness: Can't really say. Never been much for romance.

Overall Favorite: THE BATTLE OF GRADUATION DAY! The moment when everyone reveals their weapons always makes my skin tingle, and the same thing happens when they rush the vampires. The whole battle is my absolute favorite Buffy scene OF ALL TIME!
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Liv, 19:22:17 01/30/03 Thu

Funniest: Giles' lesson in Hush. And Buffy at the fair in Restless. "I am a vampire!" *giggle*

Saddest: Anya's speech in The Body. Although I usually bawl through the entire episode. Also, Giles discovering Jenny's body in Passion.

Happiest: Xander pays for Cordy's prom dress in The Prom.

Most Frightening/Creepy: The only thing more creepy than the Gentlemen in Hush were their freaky flailing helpers.

Cheerworthy: Spike straddling the Slayer on the NYC subway in Fool For Love.

Romantic: "Under Your Spell" in Once More with Feeling

(My own addition) Fight Scene: Faith and Buffy and handcuffs at the end of Graduation Day Pt 1. Closely followed by Buffy, Spike and the rocket launcher outside Principal Wood's office in Him.

Overall: Wow. Tough question. I thought Restless was stunning... but I can't pick just one!
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Cheryl, 20:17:36 01/30/03 Thu

a) Funniest: There are so many! But one I haven't seen mentioned here yet, from Bargaining "SPIKE: Oh, poor Watcher. Did your life pass before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea?" Also, most of Something Blue when Buffy and Spike were planning their wedding.

b) Saddest: The end of The Gift and Anya's speech in The Body always make me cry. For me, watching Riley leave in Into The Woods was pretty sad, cuz I always liked him.

c) Happiest: Class Protector Award in The Prom - I still cry every time I see it.

d) Most Frightening/Creepy: The Gentlemen, definitely. But I think Angelus torturing Giles was also pretty creepy.

e) Most Cheerworthy: Buffy's speech at the end of Checkpoint; Riley coming out of nowhere to help Buffy in Doomed; Everyone standing up for Tara in Family.

f) Most Romantic: From The Gift: "SPIKE: I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man. And that's... Get your stuff, I'll be here."

g) Overall favourite: Impossible to narrow it down to one.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Purple Tulip, 20:32:39 01/30/03 Thu

a) Funniest: I really like Buffy as cavewoman in "Beer Bad" when she's spinning around in her desk chair and stuff...also, I really loved "Him" when all the girls, even Willow, are fighting over RJ---that was the best!! Also, "Tabula Rasa" was hysterical, and "Life Serial" is also up there.
b) Saddest: Split between all of "The Body," and the end of "Becoming Part 2"---those are the only two that still make me cry.
c) Happiest: The first Buffy/Angel kiss in "Angel".
d) Most Frightening/Creepy: Had to be a tie between the Gentelmen in "Hush" and the skin-eating demon in "Same Time, Same Place".
e) Most Cheerworthy: Spike in "Intervention" I think, where he fights Glory and get the crap beaten out of him b/c he won't tell what he knows about Dawn. Very impressive.
f) Most Romantic: The first kiss in "Angel," as well as when Angel gave Buffy the Cladaugh (SP?) ring in "Surprise". Also, when Cordelia chooses Xander over her friends and they walk away together, but I can't remember which episode it's in.
g) Overall favourite: The Musical, hands down.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Scroll, 20:41:31 01/30/03 Thu

I'm going to separate the Buffy moments from the Angel moments.

a) Funniest: Xander bursting in on the Buffy/Angel love scene in "The Zeppo". Buffy and Spike wrestling for the bazooka in "Him".
b) Weepiest*: Any time a Sarah McLachlan song plays, I start bawling ("Becoming" and "Grave"). The slaughter of the White Hats and the Wishverse vamps, and Giles' hope for a better world ("The Wish"). Buffy telling Dawn about Joyce ("The Body"). Willow's breakdown, Anya's speech -- hell, the whole damn episode ("The Body").
c) Happiest: Willow deciding to stay in Sunnydale ("Choices"). Tara singing to Willow "Once More, With Feeling").
d) Most Frightening/Creepy: The Gentlemen ("Hush"). Angelus in "Passion".
e) Most Cheerworthy: "The Class Protector Award goes to..." Buffy telling off the Council. The class of '99 geared up with flamethrowers (Larry, we miss you!). The Scooby Gang closing ranks around Tara ("Family").
f) Most Romantic: "Close your eyes..."
g) Overall favourite: All of "Restless".

* I'm saying weepiest, because sometimes the saddest moments aren't necessarily ones I'll cry at. The end of "Tabula Rasa" was extremely sad (especially ASH's departure from the show), but didn't make me cry.

a) Funniest: Spike's monologue in "In the Dark". Most of "Room W/ A Vu". Numfar!!! The Dance of Joy!!!
b) Weepiest*: "I'll never forget, I'll never forget, I'll never forget..." Doyle's sacrifice in "Hero". Actually, I find I usually cry harder in the subsequent scene, when Cordelia and Angel are watching Doyle's 'commercial' for Angel Investigations. Every word he said takes on a whole new meaning. Darla's death in "Lullaby".
c) Happiest: This is more hopeful than happy, but Angel and Faith chatting in prison ("Judgement"). The Fang Gang returning home after Pylea; of course the next second it all comes crashing down at the sight of Willow ("There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb").
d) Most Frightening/Creepy: Wesley makes a really creepy stalker ("Billy"). Darla crawling all over a sleeping Angel in "First Impressions". The child sociopath, Ryan ("I've Got You Under My Skin"). Wesley holding Justine hostage ("Deep Down").
e) Most Cheerworthy: Cordy bitching out the ghost of Maud Pearson ("Room W/ A Vu"). Wesley refusing to cave under Faith's torture ("Five by Five").
f) Most Romantic: I can't do it, I just can't.... Uh, maybe Angel's promise to Darla to stay with her as she died ("The Trial").
g) Overall favourite: The last scene of "Loyalty", as Wesley struggles to decide whether the prophecy is true or false, whether to tell Angel regardless, and the horror on his face when the three portents come to pass. Actually, any scene with Wesley :p Also, Numfar!
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- 110v3w1110w, 23:21:21 01/30/03 Thu

well here are mine :-
1.Funniest - this would either have to be when spike is giving his the big bad is back speech and getting zapped in the in the middle of it by the soldiers in season4 or giles being shot in the behind by the tranquilizer that was meant for Oz and saying bloody priceless before passing out

2.Saddest - would have to be tara's death and willows dispair, when tara finds out what that flower willow left on her pillow was for and knowing what it meant for the two of them or the hoplessness of human darla's situation in angel

3.Happiest - would be tara and willow making up before tara was killed

4.Most Frightening/Creepy - that demon eathing the flesh from willow while she couldn't move was easily the most horrific thing in the show aside from that angelus in passion was pretty bad

5.Most Cheerworthy - Oz fighting that guy who had been beating his girlfriend in season 3 and taking a whooping and then the full moon coming up and Oz saying now the rules change

6.Most Romantic - tara singing to willow in OMWF or when buffy and angel get attacked while ice skating in season 2 and angel vampinping out and being ashamed about his demon and his vamp face and buffy saying she doesn't even see it

7.Overall favourite - i couldn't narrow it down even to 2 or 3 there are so many
[> I'm still going to bed so I'll just give one answer. -- Deb, 23:49:13 01/30/03 Thu

I love all of "The Initiative" and "Pangs" because of Spike. I find it all to be hilarious. If I hadn't lost my essay below on Tricksters you would know why. It was brilliant.
[> ARGH! I can't believe I forgot Best Fight! -- Wizard, 01:11:31 01/31/03 Fri

[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Helen, 01:30:34 01/31/03 Fri

a) Funniest - the entire scene in Superstar when Buffy and Anya and trying to explain about alternate dimension "say you really really like shrimp..."

b) Saddest - so many sad ones, but the most bittersweet was the look on Faith's face in the dream sequence in Graduation Day 2 "They're never going to be able to fix this, are they?" Just makes me want to cry.
And Oz leaving at the end of New Moon Rising. Tie.

c) Happiest - hard to think of many happies! Anya and Xander announcing their engagement was great. Pure joy on Anya's face, as she rejected the money for love.


d) Most Frightening/Creepy - oh, the whole of Hush. The entire episode.

e) Most Cheerworthy - Cordy pretending to be a Slayer in Homecoming. And bluffing it completely. You go girl!

f) Most Romantic - not an obvious choice, but Cordy's beautiful amazed look in The Prom when she finds out that "somebody" paid for her prom dress. And she looked bloody fantastic.

g) Overall favourite - dear Lord I don't know. Perhaps the break up in the Prom. It was so well done, clearly by someone who knew a lot about pain.
[> Best moment on Buffy ever is... -- Tchaikovsky, 02:14:09 01/31/03 Fri

Resless: Giles' dream: Exposition song

The following lines:

'Willow look through the Chronicles. Some reference to a warrior beast. Xander, help Willow, and try not to bleed on my couch, I've just had it steam-cleaned'


Pure, unadulterated genius.

TCH- who'll probably come back for the full list later
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Lumina, 02:41:07 01/31/03 Fri

Not including season seven episodes, because I haven't seen
them yet:

a) Funniest

"Yes, you were right all along about everything... Well, no,
you weren't right about your mother coming back as a
Pekinese..." (Giles in Teacher's Pet); "The bird's dead, Dru"
(Spike in Lie to Me); "I'm thinking maybe dinner and a
movie. I don't want to rush into anything. I've been hurt,
you know" (Spike on his intentions re: Angel in What's My
Line Part II); the Mayor ticking off "Become Invincible"
after "Meeting with PTA" and "Haircut" in Bad Girls.

b) Saddest

Anya's speech in The Body, Buffy's sacrifice at the end of
The Gift and the grief-stricken reactions of the individual
scoobies (especially Spike).

c) Happiest

Buffy, Xander and Giles discovering that Willow is still
alive and unvamped in Dopplegangland.

d) Most Frightening/Creepy

Definitely the grinning/gliding Gentlemen in Hush and their
equally creepy flailing attendants.

e) Most Cheerworthy

Spike disposing of the Annoying One at the end of School
Hard ("from now on we're going to have a little less ritual
and a little more fun around here"); Spike refusing to tell
Glory the identity/whereabouts of the key in Intervention;
Giles assuming the responsibility of killing Ben in The
Gift; Giles' timely reappearance at the end of Two To Go.

f) Most Romantic

I'm having trouble thinking of any favourite moment that
fits neatly enough into this category. Possibly the first
time we ever see Spike and Dru together at the beginning of
School Hard (in a twisted kind of a way).

g) Overall favourite

The funny and incredibly moving scene between Buffy and
Spike at the end of Intervention (which doesn't really fit
under any of the above headings).
[> [> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- dms, 07:55:34 01/31/03 Fri

My first post here. Hope this works.

Funniest: Puppet Show: The look on Xander, Willow, and Giles' faces when the puppet is talking to them. BB&B: Willow trying to seduce Xander. A New Man: Spike and Fyarl!Giles in the car (and chasing after Maggie Walsh). BvD: Master-bator and spider eating Xander in general.

Saddest: Of course there's The Gift and Buffy's dive, the only time I ever cried while watching BtVS. There's also (and these are probably more poignant/bittersweet than sad) 1) Spike reaching out to stroke Dawn's hair in Blood Ties, and then pulling away; 2) The look on Spike's face when he realizes in The Gift that he's failed Dawn, right before he's thrown off the tower by Doc; 3) The entire Faith/Buffy relationship. I've always found it so sad that they were at odds, and constantly misunderstanding each other; 4) Giles and Buffy at the end of Helpless. Their relationship changed a lot after this episode; it wasn't ever really the same.

Creepiest: Since everyone has mentioned The Gentlemen already, I'll nominate Hyena!Xander from The Pack. I thought Maggie Walsh and Season 6 Willow had a lot of potential to be really disturbing. Too bad Adam killed her and Willow became a magic addict.

Happiest: This one is hard. I'll go with the end of Prophecy Girl. "We saved the world, I say we party".

Most Cheerworthy: When She was Bad: Buffy destroying the bones of The Master. Innocence: Buffy blowing up The Judge. Becoming II: Spike beating Angelus with a crowbar. The Zeppo: Xander standing up to Cordelia.

Most Romantic: My most twisted romantic moment goes to Spike and Dru in FFL, during the Boxer Rebellion flashback. More traditional ones are: GDII: Buffy and Angel nodding to each other, and Angel walking off. NMR: Oz and Willow and the Istanbul conversation. OM,WF: Spike saving Buffy and brushing back her hair as he sings to her.

Best Fight: Buffy/Faith in GDII; Spike/Buffy in HLoD; Buffy/First Slayer in Restless.

Overall Favourite: Xander's dream in Restless; the cutting between the subway car and the alley in FFL.

I don't watch AtS consistently enough to have that many favorite moments. But, I definitely think the funniest moment is Spike at the beginning of In the Dark. For saddest, well, I still haven't gotten over Doyle's death. And I'm sure my most romantic moment would include a Darla and Angel(us) scene; I like them together.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- CW, 06:09:46 01/31/03 Fri

Everybody's doing so well I'll just nominate a couple

Funniest: Someone already mentioned Giles walking into the tree at the end of Earshot which is my all time favorite. I wanted to add as an honorable mention the moment when Giles and the gang enter the Bronze in OMwF. "She needs backup. Tara! Anya!"

Saddest: In a episode full of good candidates, the absolute saddest moment for me in The Body is when Buffy calls out to warn Giles, "We're not supposed to move the body!" when she comes out of the state of numb shock she was in and fully realizes what has happened.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- skpe, 07:13:38 01/31/03 Fri

Most of mine have allready been named. Just add one Giles 'Lie to me' speech
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Sebastian, 07:20:46 01/31/03 Fri

a) Funniest:
Nearly all of "Dopplegangland". One of my fave eps - and the first indication that AH could be evil, sexy and funny all at the same time.

b) Saddest:
Anya's 'Why?' speech in "The Body". Makes my heart stop and tears well every single time.

c) Happiest:
Are there happy moments in BtVS? ;-) I guess for me it was seeing Buffy back to her normal self when she was training Dawn in the opening teaser of 'Lessons'.

d) Most Frightening/Creepy:
The Wishverse Version of the Scooby Gang dying in 'The Wish'. We knew it was temporary - but disturbing nonetheless.

e) Most Cheerworthy:
A tie. Buffy's worries about leaving a legacy go unfounded in "The Prom" and her entire speech to the Watcher's Council in "Checkpoint".

f) Most Romantic:
The entire 'Under Your Spell' sequence in "Once More With Feeling".

g) Overall favourite:
This is difficult. I would have to say any scene with Willow in the latter half of 'Two to Go'. Sheer brilliance by AH.
[> Has anyone one done this one? -- trilby, 07:34:12 01/31/03 Fri

Creepiest for me, also quite sad: When Giles thinks that Jenny Callendar has set up a romantic night in, only to find her murdered body in his bed. ('Passion')

'Oh, I need a hug' moment: Giles,just before he smashes Anyanka's amulet in 'The Wish': 'Because there has to be!'
Gets me every time.
[> [> Above post not only has typos, but makes it seem ... -- Trilby, 07:45:38 01/31/03 Fri

as if I didn't read the other posts- I did, every last one, and felt inspired. Sorry
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- manwitch, 07:51:08 01/31/03 Fri

These would all change from day to day, of course, depending on which episode I've just seen. But these will always rank pretty high for me.

a) Funniest--"I can make sketches" (Intervention), "Fort Dicks?" (Yoko Factor), pretty much all of the Zeppo, but especially the interrogation of the dead guy as Xander speeds away.

b) Saddest--The end of the Gift, the montage at the end of Tabula Rasa (it seemed like the end of the Scooby Gang)

c) Happiest--The end of the Gift (talk about life-affirming) and the montage at the end of Tabula Rasa (it just leaves you with such hope)

d) Most Frightening/Creepy--Buffy's spell during No Place Like Home, the Mayor's entrance into the library

e) Most Cheerworthy--Quentin's caving in Checkpoint

f) Most Romantic--The final kiss in Intervention. The entirety of Willow/Xander in season three.

g) Overall favourite--the scene where Buffy finds out she's gonna die in Prophecy Girl is just a masterpiece.

(and the added categories:
Fight--Buffy and Faith in Graduation Day
Sexiest--The brief nano-second you think Buffy might be going out with Faith in Bad Girls, and Willow checking out Dawn on the dance floor. Is there a theme here?)

One of my favorite moments in Angel will always be "Looks like sex with the Groosilag" from, well, you know what its from (can't spell it). And I loved Lorne's speech the other night: "You don't get personal days."
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- ponygirl, 07:55:47 01/31/03 Fri

Oh, ack! Hard! Especially trying to gear up my brain this morning.

a) Funniest - For some reason Giles' line "It's alright, I have more Scotch" in Something Blue always cracks me up. Also the scene with Giles and Spike in the car in A New Man.

b) Saddest - Dawn reaching out to touch Joyce's face at the end of the Body. The fact that we never see her hand reach her mother makes the scene even more wrenching.

c) Happiest - The end of Amends, though it's less jump up and down happy, more about wonder. Always guaranteed to tear me up... though at the moment I'm not too inclined to go on about the magic of snow. Frickin winter.

d) Most Frightening/Creepy - Probably the closest the board will ever come to a consensus: the floating Gentlemen in Hush.

e) Most Cheerworthy - In Becoming, Angelus asks Buffy what she has left, and she replies, "me."

f) Most Romantic - I have to love Xander's speech to Anya at the end of Into the Woods. Rendered her completely speechless 'cause what can you say after that? Number two on the struck-dumb-by-the-heartfeltness-of-it hit parade would be Spike's "every night I save you" speech in Afterlife.

g) Overall favourite - the hardest one of all! I've had entire episodes leave me dancing in delight, but right now I'm going to go with Jonathon's speech in CwDP. Not only was it the pinnacle of one of my favourite character's development, I think it kind of summed up a lot of what we're meant to take away from the series.
[> [> One episode that I don't think has been mentioned yet... -- dms, 08:14:37 01/31/03 Fri

is Dead Things, which gets my vote for the most creepy Buffy episode. I love this episode, and I can't really pick just one moment that I would label "most disturbing". The surreal nature of it really gets to me. I wish SDK hadn't gone to AtS!
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Alison, 08:31:00 01/31/03 Fri

Saddest: That scene in the prom when Buffy says "I can't breathe..."...it always makes me cry
[> [> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- danielle, 08:43:56 01/31/03 Fri

One of my favorite ROFLMAO moments is the Xander/Harmony fight in The Initiative.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- KdS, 08:37:23 01/31/03 Fri

Posting before reading everyone else's so that I can get my immediate responses:

For BtVS:

a) Funniest - the fight between Xander and Harmony in The Initiative
b) Saddest - The first fantasy scene in The Body
c) Happiest - Willow and Tara's reconciliation in Entropy - and we all know what happened next
d) Most Frightening/Creepy - Dawn fascinated with Spike's tales of slaughter in Crush
e) Most Cheerworthy - Buffy kicking Angelus in the crotch in Innocence
f) Most Romantic - Xander's declaration of love for Anya in Into the Woods
extra - Best Fight - the Scooby Gestalt vs. Adam in Primeval

For AtS:

a) Funniest - the telephone conversation between Willow and Cordy in Disharmony
b) Saddest - the final scenes of The Trial
c) Happiest - the meal at the end of To Shanshu in LA
d) Most Frightening/Creepy - Wes stalking Fred through the Hyperion in Billy
e) Most Cheerworthy - the death of Linwood in Deep Down
f) Most Romantic - um, N/A?
Best fight - Connor vs. everyone else at the start of A New World
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- tomfool, 09:53:04 01/31/03 Fri

Mostly repeats, constantly morphing, but today:

Funniest: The only scene that still makes me laugh out loud every time is Giles walking into the tree in Earshot.

Saddest: "Close your eyes." Cue Sarah McLachlan.

Happiest: Buffy to Xander in IMG: "I had you to bring me back."

Creepiest: In Listening To Fear, when Joyce is ranting at the Queller demon on the ceiling above her. Still make the hair on my neck stand up. Kristine Sutherland did a great job here.

Most Cheerworthy: Entire speech to the Watcher's Council in "Checkpoint".

Most Romantic: Buffy and Spike bringing down the house in Smashed. Most erotic scene ever filmed for television. (I know, that's different than romantic, but still.)

Best fight: Faith v. Buffy in Graduation Day I.

Overall favorite: Impossible, but for now, Buffy's 'I don't want to die' scene in PG because it's the first truly perfect moment in the show.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- purplegrrl, 10:13:08 01/31/03 Fri

So many to choose from!!

a) Funniest
Possibly when Giles walks into the tree after Buffy tells him she knows about him and her mother at the end of "Band Candy." Or maybe Xander doing the Snoopy dance.

b) Saddest
When Oz leaves Willow to go off and learn how to control his werewolf-ness.

c) Happiest
When Buffy's classmates recognize her efforts to keep them safe and alive, and Angel arrives to dance with Buffy in "The Prom."

d) Most Frightening/Creepy
When Angelus was harrassing Buffy and the gang *or* just about anytime Drusilla had an extended conversation with anyone.

e) Most Cheerworthy
Possibly when Buffy survives Maggie Walsh's attempt to kill her.

f) Most Romantic
A tie between:
When Buffy and Angel make love (before the soul-losing part)
Buffy's memory/dream of that night
When Oz and Willow make love for the first time
When Riley tells Buffy that she can teach him about women
When Angel returns after Joyce's funeral to comfort Buffy.

g) Overall favorite
As always, Angel/Angelus's voice-over in "Passion."

I'm sure there are other moments I would have thought of yesterday, or tomorrow!!
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Mencius, 13:44:04 01/31/03 Fri

Hello, I have never posted here before, but I am impressed with this site and forum, and this thread seemed like a good opportunity to introduce myself. In any case, here are my opinions:



Romantic- At the end of Angel, when Buffy kisses Angel and her cross burns him, but he ignores it.

Funniest- I do not think that this one has been said before; The manifestation of the fear demon in Fear Itself.

Creepiest- Also one that has not been said before; der Kindestod feeding off the kids in Killed by Death.

Cheer worthy- The fight at the end of Graduation part II.

Saddest- When Giles finds Jenny's body in Passions.

Happiest- The end of the prom, when Buffy finally receives recognition from her fellow students and dances with Angel.

Overall Best- When Zander faces down Jack, in the Zeppo.
[> What an oddly-shaped thread this is -- slain, 14:40:55 01/31/03 Fri

The way the subject lines of the replies are organised makes it look a bit like a very long, and very repetitive, poem.

a) Funniest
Buffy's 'staking' guesture in 'Hush', and the Scoobies reaction.
b) Saddest
The end of 'The Gift'.
c) Happiest
Buffy recieving the Class Protector Award in 'The Prom'. Damn you Marti Noxon for making grown men cry...
d) Most Frightening/Creepy
Dawn reaching up to touch the body in 'The Body'. Unheimlich to de max, as Freud would say.
e) Most Cheerworthy
I'm not sure I'm one for the cheer, but maybe Xander's 'no more buttmonkey' speech.
f) Most Romantic
Angel burning himself on Buffy's cross. So sappy.
g) Overall favourite
The end of 'The Gift', because there's much to be said for pure emotional power.
[> [> Re: The smELL of a TRee in autuMN -- Tyreseus (the bloody awful poet), 19:50:05 01/31/03 Fri

Great comment about the shape of the thread, slain, have to agree.

a) funniest
I giggle like a schoolgirl every time Willow does that thing where she substitutes sounds for speech... "And then he was all 'grr, arg'" Tee hee. Second runner up is the talent show scene at the end of "The Puppet Show."
b) Saddest
From "The Body." ANYA: (crying) I don't understand how this all happens. How we go through this. I mean, I knew her, and then she's, (sniffling) there's just a body, and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. (still teary) And, and Xander's crying and not talking, and, and I was having fruit punch, and I thought, well, Joyce will never have any more fruit punch ever, and she'll never have eggs, or yawn or brush her hair, not ever, and no one will explain to me why. First time I not only liked Anya, but felt for her.
c) Happiest
Have to agree with slain about the class protector award.
d) Most Frightening/Creepy
The AR in "Seeing Red." Personal issues, I suppose.
e) Most Cheerworthy
It's an odd choice, but the opening song of "Once More With Feelings." I love musical theatre as much as I love BtVS. I was utterly swept away. I actually did cheer. My second choice would be Giles' suprise appearance at the end of "Two to Go." Again, with the jumping in my room and woop-wooping.
f) Most Romantic
Tara's "can we just skip it? Can-can you just be kissing me now?" at the end of Entropy.
g) Overall favourite
Also pointing to the end of "The Gift." Everyone crying, Spike falling over in grief, the Buffy voice-over... Truly a moment of near perfection on television.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Utopia, 14:51:53 01/31/03 Fri

It's sorta hard to pick a single moment for each category, this is the sort of question that you can talk about for hours...but, here goes.

a) Funniest - Um, all of Band Candy? Heh..Single scene: When Buffy almost catches Giles and Joyce drinking. ("Do you think she noticed anything?") Classic. Sorta a moment everyone experiences when they're 16..except the other way around..

b) Saddest - Um. The one that makes me cry consistently is when she has to stick Angel with the sword to stop Acathla. Although when Buffy finds Dawn sitting next to Tara's body is a very close second. ("I didn't want to leave her alone." Sniff.)

c) Happiest - When Joyce is finally proud of Buffy at the end of School Hard? Or when Buffy and Xander make up at the end of Seeing Red. Go forgiveness, go!

d) Most Frightening/Creepy - Either the growling/breathing noises in the background when Dawn was talking to her Mother's ghost in Conversations with Dead People and the nasty black shadow thing that was sitting on Joyce's chest...or (of course) The Gentlemen. First time I watched that episode it was real late at night. I was alone..the sound on the TV was off. It was. Creepy.

e) Most Cheerworthy - Season 2. I Only Have Eyes For You. After watching Angel and Dru flirt for god knows how long an extremely pissed Spike stands up and kicks away the wheelchair. Yeah! Asses are gonna be kicked!

f) Most Romantic - I'll have to go with Buffy kissing Angel in gameface and not noticing. Or when she found him hanging out with Mr. Gordo...That was sorta touching too. Any time that damn piano started with their theme.

g) Overall favorite - Damn hard to pick. There have been tons of great moments before and since, but the one that always sticks out is directly after Angel loses his soul:

Hooker: Hey. You okay? (bends down to look at him) You want me to call
911?

Angel: (suddenly stands up) No. The pain is gone.

Hooker: You sure?

Angel: Yeah.

He spins around, game face on, grabs her and violently bites her on the
neck to feed. He drops her dead body, tilts his head up and blows out
the smoke he's just inhaled through her neck from her lungs.

Angelus: I feel just fine.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Anneth, 15:02:36 01/31/03 Fri

a) Funniest

The Buffy/Willow/Xander rendition of Oedipus Rex. I about *died* laughing.

b) Saddest

Though I teared up at The Body and The Gift, the only time tears have ever rolled down my face was during the final scene in Beneath You.

c) Happiest

Giles coming back at the end of S6. And laughing at how ridiculous stuff had gotten while he was away. And Buffy joining in. From that moment on, we knew everything was going to be okay. (Sort of...)

d) Most Frightening/Creepy

Spike's obsession w/ Buffy during S5.

e) Most Cheerworthy

The entire Graduation Day II battle scene. But I also really liked that the 'Bot tried to help out in Intervention.

f) Most Romantic

The look on Spike's face when he realizes that it's not the Buffybot walking down the stairs toward him (Afterlife).

g) Overall favourite

*The* scene in Smashed. That sucker blew my mind, wierd and twisted as it is.

h) favorite fight scene

Xander/Harmony. Hee.
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Etrangere, 17:56:02 01/31/03 Fri

a) Funniest

Fear, It self. The very end. I was laughing my ass off.

b) Saddest

Faith at the end of Who Are You.

c) Happiest

Happiest ? In Buffy ? er... Giles at the end of 2 to Go. Oops, maybe I should be put that in the cheerworthy category. Then... The Zeppo, the very end. Still a bit bittersweet, but is there any happiness without a part of sadness ?

d) Most Frightening/Creepy

I though School Hard has some quite cool frightening moments of the "huit-clot" kind : Buffy creeping and all. Oh wait, no ! Normal Again and Buffy running after Dawn was quite creepy !

e) Most Cheerworthy

Besides the Giles one, Seeing Red, smashing Warren's balls.

f) Most Romantic

The kiss at the end of Tabula Rasa. I love that kiss.
Alternatively, every Buffy / Spike scene in Afterlife

g) Overall favourite

And my proposition as the most Bittersweet : Fool For Love, the end.

We could also do Most Chilling, Most Oniric...
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Wizard, 21:35:50 01/31/03 Fri

Wow! I didn't expect this many responces this soon! Thanks, all, and please keep them coming! I must say that I've been reminded of so many great moments and great scenes that I've forgotten about- too many to list, really.

(Hmm... guess I'm going to have to put out some kind of a Results list when this thread gets bumped, but oh well- it'll be fun)

In keeping with the spirit, here's my favourites list (liable to change, of course, but accurate for the moment- Hell, they'll probably even change before I'm done this post!):

Funniest- Runners-up: The look on the faces of Buffy, Willow, and Xander as they realize that, since they are on a Hellmouth, all their relationships will be so of the abnormal (and oh boy, were they right!); the credits of "The Talent Show"; the whole first Xander/Anya/Giles/Spike scene in "Hush" ("Is it an orgasm friend?" "Oh, I'm not your friend. Go on." "All you care about is lots of orgasms!" ROTFLMAO!); "Actual size" (the whole ending of "Fear, Itself," after the demon actually manifests, really). Favourite: Xander's hallway walk in BB&B. Honourable Mention: the Xander/Harmony catfight; "That is, if you're not too busy having sex with my mother."

Saddest- Runners-up: the Buffy/Willow conversation in "The Prom"; the Oz/Willow breakup ("Wild at Heart"); the last montage in "Lover's Walk"... until Spike's bit, that is. Winner: It's a Tie: (If I have to pick just one moment from it) Anya's speech in "The Body," and the ending of "Becoming pt.2" (everything after "Close your eyes."). Honourable Mention: the Scoobies finding Buffy's body in "The Gift."

Happiest- Runners-up: Buffy, Xander, and Giles realizing that Willow is still alive ("Doppelgangerland"); the very last scene of "The Wish" (from the viewers perspective, anyway); Willow and Tara reuniting (even considering what comes after); the Scoobies reuniting at the end of WSWB. Winner: "The Class Protector" in "The Prom." Honourable Mention: the Willow/Buffy conversation at the end of DMP.

Most Frightening/Creepy- Darth Rosenberg; most of "Fear, Itself" (until the demon manifests, with the exceptions of Anya in the bunny suit); Dru/Jenny and Giles in "Becoming pt.2" (not scary, but creepy in the extreme); "If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. Think about that" ("Prophecy Girl). Winner- the Gentlemen floating by the window (well, any time they were on sreen) in "Hush." Honourable Mention: The silhouette of Joyce in "Forever."

Most Cheerworthy- The speech to the Council ("Checkpoint"); Xander hitting Glory with the wrecking ball ("The Gift"); the Scoobies standing up for Tara ("Family"); the "Class Protector" in "The Prom." Winner: "I'd like to test that theory" ("Two to Go"). Honourable Mention: the students of Sunnydale High finally fighting back ("Graduation Day pt.2")

Most Romantic- Cordelia choosing Xander over her 'friends' (BB&B); Giles & Jenny kissing in "Ted"; Angel being shy to Buffy when they're at the rink (WML); the Angel/Buffy dance at "The Prom." Winner: the Buffy/Angel kiss at the end of "Angel." Honourable Mention: "You should be with the one you love." "I am." (NMR).

Best Fight- Buffy/Faith (Graduation Day pt.1); Buffy/Angelus (Innocence); Buffy/Angelus/Spike/Dru (Becoming pt.2); the Scoobies vs. Glory and the Minions ("The Gift"). Winner: Student body vs. the Mayor/Vampires in "Graduation Day pt.2." Honourable Mention: SuperSlayer vs. Adam (Again, can't remember the ep's name). (Yes, I know I forgot this category. Still kicking myself for it.)

Overall favourite- Anya's speech in "The Body"; "And the 'glorified bricklayer' picks up the spare!" ("The Gift"); "You had sex with Giles?" "On a police car?" "TWICE?" ("Earshot"); "Well, we saved the world. I say we party" (PG). Winner: Buffy pulling the bazooka on the Judge ("Innocence"). Honourable Mention: "Stay the hell away from my daughter!" ("School Hard").

Whew! And I'm spent!
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- leslie, 22:37:20 01/31/03 Fri

Agree with just about everything said so far, but a few additional ones:

a) Funniest: Spike and Joyce in Lover's Walk ("No, our love was eternal! Literally! Do you have any of those little marshmallows?") Spike discovering that he's "impotent" when he tries to bite Willow. (This is the scene that brought me back to watching the show after a skipping most of season 3.) All of Something Blue ("Can I be blind too?") I have a real fondness for Pangs, too, because I get just as obsessed with having a perfect Thanksgiving come hell or high water or vengeful Native American spirits. And the final shot of everyone looking at Buffy is priceless. Oh hell, Spike just makes me laugh every time he's supposed to make me laugh. I'm very obedient.
b) Saddest--The Body actually makes me cry more every time I see it. Also, not so much Buffy killing Angel but her leaving Sunnydale afterward.
c) Happiest--the Class Guardian award. Happiest rather than cheerworthy, somehow. She just looks so happy walking up to get her umbrella.
d) Most Frightening/Creepy--going with the Hush consensus on this one. Though the scene where Spike comes after Buffy with the shotgun in Fool For Love terrified me the first time I saw it, and still has a tinge of it even now that I know he isn't going to use it. But I really, really believed he was going to try the first time I saw it. Probably an indication of how well written that episode is--it never even crossed my mind that hey, she's the heroine, it isn't even near the end of the season, they're not going to blow her head off. I thought he was going to kill her.
e) Most Cheerworthy--Buffy telling off Maggie Walsh for being mean to Willow.
f) Most Romantic--In addition to everything mentioned, the scene where Dru is naming the stars all the same name and Spike points out that they're inside, and it's day. I don't know, it's there's something very tender about that scene, two people who have completely accomodated each other's eccentricities. Also the scene where Tara tells Willow, "I am, you know. Yours.
g) Overall favourite--I can't really name just one, but kitten poker has to be up there. That was one scene where I suddenly wondered who was drunk, Buffy, the writers, or me. Just suddenly veered off into left field without warning. (I also loved the face and sound Buffy made every time she took a drink. "Wwwwweagh!") Buffy laughing, "Harmony has minions?!" Giles: "Oh, as usual, dear." And a line that has much resonance now: Giles, on the Harbingers and the First Evil: "...they're rebels and they'll never ever be any good."
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories? -- Millan, 08:23:57 02/01/03 Sat

What a great thread!

Here are some of my choices (though I'm probably forgetting a lot of scenes at the moment), in no particular order:

Funniest:
The whole scene at the werehouse with Giles trying to make Buffy do as he says when he's high on Band Candy and Joyce having handcuffs (Band Candy).
The whole scene where Willow is pretending to be VampWillow at the Bronze (Doppelgängland).
Buffy drinking a lot of alcohol yet with every drink makes a face and an undescribable sound (Life Serial).
Spike taking the bazooka from Buffy and she chase him outside Principal Wood's window (Him).
Spike miming 'evil vampire' behind Joyce's back as Angel stands outside trying to warn Joyce (Lover's Walk)

Saddest:
Anya's speech about not understanding death. (The Body)
Buffy and Willow getting the phone-call about Jenny's death (Passions).
Cordelia cutting up and burning Xanders pictures while he leaves messages on her answering machine (The Wish).
Oz leaving Willow (Wild at Heart).
Spike's speech and plead for rest (Beneath You).

Happiest:
Buffy getting the Class Protector Award (The Prom).
Buffy telling Spike she won't forget what he's done for her and Dawn (Intervention).
Tara and Willow in bed all day (Seeing Red).
Cordelia deciding to be with Xander even though he's lame (Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered).
The gang standing up for Tara (Family).

Most Frightening/Creepy:
The Gentlemen, both the startling appearance at Giles' window and the scene of them floating in the boy's room brandishing knives (Hush).
The shadow of Joyce approaching the Summers' house (Forever).
Spike loosing it and tries to rape Buffy (Seeing Red).
Jenny kissing Giles when possessed by Eyghon (The Dark Age).
Gnarl ripping tiny strips of skin off Willow (Same Time, Same Place).

Most Cheerworthy:
Spike hoisting the 'Annoying One' into sunlight (School Hard).
Spike getting up from the wheel-chair without anyone knowing (I Only Have Eyes For You).
Cordelia standing up to Lyle Gorch (Homecoming).
Xander standing up to Jack (The Zeppo).
Giles' sudden appearance when Willow almost is done with Buffy (Two to Go).

Most Romantic:
Buffy kisses Angel before killing him (Becoming 2)
Xander giving Cordelia the necklace before her breaking up with him (Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered).
Spike telling Buffy how long she was gone (Afterlife).

Overall Favourite:
All Buffy/Spike interaction in Something Blue.
Spike's face going through so many emotions when he's going to shoot Buffy but finds her crying (Fool for Love).
Spike seeing Buffy at the stairs and understands she is back from the dead (Afterlife).
Most of Once More With Feeling.

Best Fight:
Buffy and Angel (Becoming 2).
Buffy and Faith (Graduation 1).
Buffy and Spike (Harsh Light of Day).

/Millan

"Is there something I can do?"
- Spike Fool for Love
[> Re: What are your 5 favourite Buffy Moments in these categories?(Spoilers 7.9) -- shadowkat, 09:19:59 02/01/03 Sat

What are your 5 favourite Buffy moments in these categories (in any or no particular order):

(Ack! HArd...not sure I can choose but will try.)

a) Funniest

Tie: Spike and Buffy wrestling over the Bazooka gun in
Him behind Principal Wood and Xander asking if he can be blind too in Something Blue.


b) Saddest

Three scenes in the Body - the first: Buffy telling Giles not to touch the Body, the second - Buffy telling Dawn and the closeup of the negative space drawing, the third, Anya's
speech.


c) Happiest

Have to go with Leslie here - when Buffy went to get the Protector Award in The Prom.

d) Most Frightening/Creepy

Also with the majority - the Gentlemen in Hush - the scene where Oliva sees them in the Window and tearing out the heart. (This may be tied with Dawn's resurrection of Joyce in Forever).

e) Most Cheerworthy

Again with Leslie - Buffy telling off Professor Walsh for Willow - can't remember the episode (tied
with Buffy going after the Master in Prophecy Girl with the music building up behind her.)

f) Most Romantic

three way tie:Dru and Spike in What's My Line where he apologizes to her and dances with her, Dru and Spike in School HArd tied with Willow and Xander in Homecoming, where they share their first kiss and he finally tells her she's goregous

g) Overall favourite

Hmmm tough. Fool For Love (the Spike scene with Buffy in the alley) tied with Becoming Part II (Spike's speech and the scene with spike, dru, Angel, Giles and Jenny, also the sword fight with Angelus) and I guess The ending of the Gift.
[> [> Sorry - one spoiler and it's just for Him, 7.5? -- s'kat, 09:22:20 02/01/03 Sat

Question for any of you asian language experts out there (Angel 4.10 spoilers) -- Masq, 14:09:10 01/30/03 Thu

Does anyone know what language the shaman used in that ritual last night to turn Angel into Angelus? I'm thinking it was Chinese, but can anyone confirm?
[> some was Mandarin - or at least sounded close to it -- Sol 1056, 15:24:20 01/30/03 Thu

[> I'm pretty sure it was Mandarin -- Scroll, 21:03:40 01/30/03 Thu

Sol is probably right. I don't speak Mandarin, but my dad and aunt do. I can tell you it wasn't Cantonese or Shanghai-nese. If they mixed in something else with the Mandarin, I didn't notice it. Maybe I can get my dad to translate? (Yeah, like he'd ever sit down to watch a show about a vampire!)
[> [> Oooh--a translation would be very cool! -- Masq, 09:06:17 01/31/03 Fri

I haven't been including translations in my ep analyses for a while. My helpful translators seem to have disappeared, and I need to get to the shooting scripts to see if the translations are there, but they are non-existent for S. 4 Angel right now.

I would love to know what Wo-Pang said in that ritual!
[> [> [> Re: Oooh--a translation would be very cool! -- Angela, 09:42:59 01/31/03 Fri

And I'd love to know what was written on him....
[> [> [> [> Re: Oooh--a translation would be very cool! -- Peanut, 11:06:49 01/31/03 Fri

I know just enough of the writing (from Japanese studies) to confirm that the kanji were authentic, at least the dozen or so that I saw in passing (specifically, I saw the one for "small"). All the characters were kanji, which further cements the Chinese part (written Japanese also includes kana characters for conjugation and grammar purposes).

Not enough of the characters were in focus long enough to get a real sense of what they said, but it sure looked like someone had done their homework and made it authentic.

Wes must be a linguistic deity of the first order if he could wrangle those nuances out of written Chinese (in addition to his mastery of Sumerian, Hebrew, etc.). Or maybe that was all a skill of Angel's Idealized Wes(TM).
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooh--a translation would be very cool! -- Angela, 12:05:47 01/31/03 Fri

Thank you. It was a guess because of the Sappho poem (to Aphrodite?) on Tara's back...once the ep has been out a bit I'll surf and see if anything comes up on the internet (also wishing for even a transcript on Angel, not that I don't appreciate what's showing up for Buffy.) But I very much appreciate your comments. The languages are that closely related still? I noticed that searches on words like Sun Dai Kun Muo (or Muyo)Ping were generating hits in Chinese, Japanese and some other Eastern languages. Some of the Japanese definitions seem closer matches with the story actually. Course IU don't know what the end of the story will be yet :-)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oooh--a translation would be very cool! -- JM, 19:46:05 01/31/03 Fri

Some of it may have been Angel's fantasy, but it was consistent. I'm not convinced that Wes is that much smarter than Gunn. They both seem to have to have decent native intelligence. Seeing patterns, solving mysteries. But Wes has a lifetime of rigorous training to draw on. (Fred on the other hand seems to be an untrained mental powerhouse. Outclassing both her suitors effortlessly.)

However Wes has consistently been shown to have an impressive gift for languages, from Parting Gifts on. I can so see him earning head-boy status by turning in his translation homework with no errors. It's reinforced in Pylea when he's patching together an intrepetation of the priests' library. (Whereas Fred, without language training, figures enough from her own brain to actually accidentally open portals.) So it makes sense that Angel would incorporate that gift into his ideal world. Wes is his walking library, Cordy his walking inspiration, Connor a walking arsenal.

Gods, I am going crazy being out of the loop. That one DC preemption pretty much knocked me off the board discussions till the next set of repeats. I'll never catch up. But I'm loving reading the commentary. Go authenticity.
[> [> I didn't tape it... -- Sol 1056, 21:28:16 01/31/03 Fri

Or I would've taken it by campus today to ask a friend to translate it. I really wasn't paying much attention - I heard enough to say, oh, yeah, I should be understanding this, and then promptly tuned it out on purpose. Just wasn't in the mood to have to actually think. Happens sometimes.

As for the characters, I'd put my money on chinese - plus I recognized quite a few but again without recording & pausing I couldn't tell you too much. I do know two things: I'm almost postive I saw characters for furniture (chairs and tables, I think), and I was mildly impressed Wesley was reading the characters in their proper traditional direction - right to left. Small touch, but a nice one.
[> It was Mandarin. -- Deeva, 22:09:29 01/30/03 Thu

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