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The Latest Slayer-in-Training -- David Frisby, 17:12:01 01/28/03 Tue

My son just noticed that Amanda (the latest Slayer-in-training) was sent to Buffy by Mr. Miller because she slammed some guy's face into the pavement -- did they (ME) know then that she was a SIT?

Also, on Amends, right before Giles tells Buffy want he found out about The First, Buffy tells Willow she just needs to make sure Oz knows he comes first (a clue?).

df

[> Re: The Latest Slayer-in-Training -- WickedBuffy, 17:39:25 01/28/03 Tue

Amanda did seem kinda on the violent side when she visited Councilor Buffy at school.

Some people think Amanda is some creation of The First. Did she get that fast-healing gash on her head from the vampire at school, or when she got all faint and wobbly at the Summers front door? In the show, I thought she said one, then the other.

I find it incredibly refreshing seeing the difference in how Amanda AND Kennedy are about being potentials. They are very excited and totally into the training. Even after killing a vamp, being chased by evil, etc. What a difference than when Buffy found out she was the Slayer AND even for a long times fterwards. She was bitter, stubborn, rebellious and did not want it. These two girls just found out about it, especially Amanda, and are very excited about it. It's true they don't know all the horror to come, but neither did Buffy at first.

That's why I still think that Buffy chooses Amanda or Kennedy over Dawn to be the next Slayer, and Buffy (since shes survived so long) gets to retire and have the regular life she's been whining about since day One.

[> [> Re: The Latest Slayer-in-Training -- HonorH, 18:10:02 01/28/03 Tue

You're making a mistaken assumption about Buffy. When we first see her, she's already been the Slayer for a year. She was fifteen when she was Called and took on Lothos in L.A. She was already a veteran of the action, and she didn't like it. Her first Watcher, Merrick, died in her arms. She'd hoped that getting away from L.A. might mean that she didn't have to be the Slayer anymore, and then Giles drops the bomb on her. So no, she wasn't pleased. But she took up her destiny and even managed to have some fun while she was at it. Yes, occasionally, she does whine, but unless you're willing to say you never whine about even the petty, non-world-destroying problems in your own life, I wouldn't recommend criticizing her for it.

You'll also note that neither Kennedy nor Amanda is entirely thrilled with the situation. Yes, they're jazzed up after their victories, but in BotN, Kennedy was downright scared, having watched her Watcher get killed. Amanda, too, was scared out of her mind and confused. Furthermore, Kennedy's been a SiT most of her life, from the sound of it, so she's also had time to adjust to the idea of being a Slayer. Amanda may not be so jazzed next time life-threatening situations come up. In other words, they're rather poor comparisons to Buffy, who has the real burden--and has had it for the last seven-eight years.

[> [> [> Re: The Latest Slayer-in-Training -- luna, 19:01:17 01/28/03 Tue

Is it really as much fun as it looks on TV? It's like being president, a person who would want to do it probably shouldn't do it. Even monsters should be killed only with regret.

[> [> [> [> Good point. -- HonorH, 19:39:35 01/28/03 Tue

Faith would be a good example of this principle in action. She was totally into being the Slayer and loudly and proudly got off on Slaying--but she also took it too far.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Good point. -- WickedBuffy, 20:57:58 01/28/03 Tue

It's almost as if they have to fight to keep their power from corrupt ing them. Maybe Faiths did - it went to her head. The power and strength and being special. Buffy seems to be dealing alot with control and power - accepting what she can and can't control, what her power can do and what is beyond it all. Buffy can't save everyone - does she really realize that?

But I still stand by that the attitudes of Amanda and Kennedy about being chosen are decidedly different and more positive than Buffys - whether you start with the movie or the series.

[> [> [> [> [> [> 'Different', yeah. -- HonorH, 21:27:02 01/28/03 Tue

Of course they're different. But really, how much have we seen of them? How much time has Amanda had as a Potential? Has reality sunk in yet? Kennedy's got her feet solidly on the ground, as far as I can see (which would make sense, as she's 19 and thus four years older than Buffy was when she found out about the whole Slaying gig), but still, she hasn't had much screentime. She certainly wasn't too jazzed about being on the Hellmouth in BotN. I wonder, too, just how much of her "suck it up" attitude has been influenced by watching Buffy. She was scared in BotN, but after Buffy's speech, she apparently decided to have confidence in Buffy and believe she was going to get out of this alive. Definitely a good attitude, and certainly something that seems to be a part of her, but I do think she's learning from Buffy, just like the rest of them are.

Also, I think Buffy *has* accepted that she can't save everyone. Think back to "Lessons". Did she go into fits of angst because she couldn't save the Manifest Spirits people? No. She accepted that she hadn't been able to save them and set about defeating them. No, what I think Buffy's real trial will be is that the First *won't* be something she can defeat. That's what she's concentrating on right now. She's beaten everything else; she needs to beat this. Just like she went up against the Turok-han mano-a-mano: she was confident she could beat it, and she needed to. But the First won't, I think, be the kind of monster she can defeat, and as long as she tries to, she'll be losing the war.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Different', yeah. -- Peggin, 06:13:56 01/29/03 Wed

No, what I think Buffy's real trial will be is that the First *won't* be something she can defeat.

When Willow was doing her locator spell, and The First momentarily took her over, it said, "You only make me stronger." I think that's going to be the problem. The harder Buffy tries to destroy The First, the stronger The First is going to get. There's kind of a hint at that in the teaser for Lessons, when Buffy was training Dawn and Dawn initially got away from the vampire by using it's own strength against it;

DAWN: 'Cause, you know, with the whole rolling thing, I was actually using his strength, and it was very tai chi."

I have no idea how Buffy is going to neutralize The First (I don't think she can defeat it; I think the best she can hope for is a stalemate), but I think the harder she tries to destroy it, the worse off she is going to be.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But what if the FE is... -- Michael, 10:53:40 01/29/03 Wed

In all this talk about the FE and how it can't be defeated and the more we fight against it the worse it gets, has anyone brought up the possibility that the FE is not supposed to be defeated?
What if the FE is like the concept of shadow, ie, we are to come to grips with it, make friends with it, learn to live with the evil that can come from each of us. It's not a matter of winning so much as it is a matter of balance. Think about Spike. Even with his soul, could there still be evil lurking within? Of course, he's got a demon inside, but now he's got the soul for balance.
So, maybe the FE is a force that causes us to examine ourselves and decide how we are going to deal with the issues of good and evil as they come up every day.
Sometimes we can learn lessons from a negative example.

Oh. Wow. Just saw new Angel ep (spoilers for 4.10) -- Scroll, 19:19:19 01/28/03 Tue

Alright, I'm not going to go into specifics since I realise most of you are American and don't get Angel until tomorrow night. But I must take this opportunity to quote Mere Smith from the Bronze, after the airing of "Loyalty" last season. I think her words are apropos for this episode, and for this season:

For all of you going spastic about what's to come: say your prayers, cross your fingers, hold your breath, and kiss your sweet Georgia mama goodbye, 'cause -

you.

have.

no.

idea.

~ Mere Smith, The Bronze Posting Board (Feb 26, 2002, 06:28:49)

I thought I knew what was going on. Everything seemed to be going swimmingly. None of the characters were annoying me, the plan to take out the Beast seemed to be working. The plot had twists and turns, the atmosphere was intense and more than a little creepy. Indiana Jones, vampire style! The relationships were starting to heal, Alexis Denisof and David Boreanaz were kicking some serious ass, the chemistry between Angel and Cordelia wasn't as nausea-inducing as usual. Friendship and family seemed to be the name of the game, forgiveness and understanding flowing like milk and honey...

okay, yeah, the sex made me cringe a little, and we still had another ridiculous speech from a third party (Connor, of all people!) telling us how much Cordelia lurved Angel, and how much those two crazy kids deserved to be together forever... (sorry, yab) and I was about to drown in the syrup, but then...

Oh, then!

Oh.

My.

God.

Holy sh-t!

yeah, that's all I have to say...

[> Any Canadians out there? (vague spoilers for 4.10) -- Scroll, 20:54:53 01/28/03 Tue

Hmm, this whole see Angel one day in advance isn't all it's cracked up to be. On the plus side -- hello, Angel one whole day in advance! But on the negative side, nobody is ready to post on the episode since most haven't seen it yet... sigh.

Anyway, I had one further observation to make about "Awakening". For a good deal of this episode, right up until the you-know-what scene, I was totally and completely fooled. But looking back, I realise everything -- the characters, the handy coincidences, the research, the relic hunt, even the fight scenes -- were playing out like somebody's fanfic. A really well-written fanfic, but a fanfic nonetheless. Because everything was being wrapped up so neatly. All the loose ends tied up with a cute little bow. And I never noticed how wrong it all was until Angel and Cordelia started in with the... yeah, I won't go there...

But now in hindsight I can remember the slightly nagging feeling I got at various points of the ep. This nagging feeling that things were going too smoothly, that everything was going too well for this to be a Joss Whedon show. This wasn't a bad nagging feeling, or rather it wasn't the nagging feeling you get when you know an episode is falling apart at the seams. This was that tremble you get when you're in a dark room, and there's a partly opened door beyond which there are black shadows. And you step up to the door, reach out a hand, push it back and listen as the hinges creak... And you know, you just know something horrible and evil and devastating lay in that darkness, ready to devour you...

OT, I never used to like horror and suspense, and for the most part I still don't. But I must say, Angel does horror and suspense superbly and I can't get enough of it!

[> [> Re: Any Canadians out there? (SPOILERS for 4.10) -- Utopia, 21:42:15 01/28/03 Tue

I completely agree. I kept waiting for the ball to drop because, well, I saw the previews...I *was* expecting a twisty bit..just not that one. *Really* didn't see that coming.

That final/climaxy scene with Cordy? Christ, the piano music, the things she was saying, and the situation that they had just gotten out of? I was having serious flashbacks to Season 2 on Buffy. I kept saying Goddamit, doesn't this guy ever LEARN????

Canadians may get Angel a day early, but we still have to wait another week to see the next ep. Damn.

Well anyway. Queue maniacal laughter.

[> [> [> Re: Any Canadians out there? (SPOILERS for 4.10) -- Scroll, 22:02:11 01/28/03 Tue

I know what you mean! I want it to be next Tuesday already! This episode was incredible but it also makes me impatient for more.

I have to say, I loved the fact that everything happening was really just in Angel's mind because this ep laid out so wonderfully Angel's perspective on family, on lovers, on who has done who wrong. Notice that it's Wesley, Cordelia, and Connor who come to him and ask for forgiveness. They're the ones who realise that they've done wrong and want to be taken back. Angel never has to say to Wesley, gee sorry for almost killing you. Angel gets to say to Connor, "get over it", echoing Cordelia from last week.

Note that it's Wesley, Cordelia, and Connor who go with Angel on the relic hunt. Angel has put his family back together. They work together, and eventually, kind of, bond over the experience (all except Connor). Angel's mind casts Wesley back into his Watcher/translator/brainy-guy role. Cordelia is cast into the role of lover. Connor is the toughest: he says to Angel all the things Angel ever wanted to say to his own father. And Angel gets to say to Connor, "get over it". But when the chips are down and Angel has to face the Beast, Connor is right there with him. They defeat the Beast together. Maybe this is foreshadowing? And after the Beast is oh-so-conveniently slayed, Angel gathers his family together and even Gunn and Wesley set aside their differences to rejoice in the sun coming out.

This episode played like fanfic, because in Angel's mind, "fanfic" is the only way he will ever have a happy ending. Angel's fanfic isn't reality, but it's the closest he'll ever get. And he believes in this fanfic enough that the illusion sets free his soul. Big stuff, here...

[> [> [> [> Re: Any Canadians out there? (SPOILERS for 4.10) -- lynx, 01:29:57 01/29/03 Wed

yes. when wes said 'sorry' i expected angel to do the same but nope... first oddness.

lots of oddnesses but i still didn't see that THING coming!

mwahaahaaaaaaaaaaa!

[> Re: Oh. Wow. Just saw new Angel ep (spoilers for 4.10) -- lynx, 01:19:49 01/29/03 Wed

and then...

then...

wow!

[> Re: Oh. Wow. Just saw new Angel ep (spoilers for 4.10) -- yabyumpan, 02:03:45 01/29/03 Wed

"(sorry, yab)" No problem ;o)

Angel fantasizes about his perfect day, which ends with him making love with Cordelia and having that 'perfect hapiness' momment! I'm happy :o)

[> Re: Oh. Wow. Just saw new Angel ep (spoilers for 4.10)..and a prediction. -- Rufus, 02:41:14 01/29/03 Wed

Just as in Deep Down, we see the world as Angel would like it to be, and isn't. Connor is Angel's Dawn, he is the one that is forcing Angel to grow up and stop blaming others for feeling crappy about himself. When Connor acted out and said it was all Angel's fault, I kinda thought that was Liam referring to his own father....the first hint that this may be the start of something good is that Angel said "you think you're the only one who has ever wanted to kill your father?"...paraphrase there. This year has flashes of season two where Angel daring to take that chance to love someone went so wrong and he ended up Angelus again. I have a prediction here........that is that Angel will get his soul back (or the show is really over) and it won't be by the Gypsy curse and that last barrier to growth (the happiness clause) will no longer be an issue. With that gone, Angel will have to finally get over it, his father, his life as a vampire...everything. And he was right tonight everyone is a Champion, meaning everyone is responsible, not just one heroic figure.

[> Re: Oh. Wow. Just saw new Angel ep (spoilers for 4.10) -- ponygirl, 06:41:33 01/29/03 Wed

I'm doing a happy little dance and giggling a bit maniacally... I have a strong urge to run around the board going "nyah nyah". That was so fun last night! While I was vibing on the whole Indiana Angel thing, I was starting to roll my eyes as *everything* worked out so well. And then!!

And interesting that when Angel rolled off Cordelia he muttered "Buffy". I took it as a bit of "hey when was I last in a similar situation?" kind of thing but I think that some people are going to freak out about it.

[> [> Re: Oh. Wow. Just saw new Angel ep (spoilers for 4.10) -- lenair, 10:25:29 01/29/03 Wed

Yay, other Canadians to talk to!

He said "Buffy"? I totally missed that. And I didn't tape it. Have to rewatch on Thursday.

While I was expecting some kind of surprise ending (after all, there were 10 minutes left!), I certainly didn't expect that one! I probably would have been more blown away if I hadn't seen "Alias" two days earlier, but it was still a nifty twist.

I wondered a bit about the fact that, when Angel was fighting the Beast, it seemed the Beast recited the exact lines that Cordelia heard as an Angelus memory. Just Angel using the lines Cordy quoted him, or was Cordy's vision off? It would explain why Angel didn't remember it. (But it wouldn't explain the hair Angelus had in Cordy's vision...)

Quite looking forward to next week, too -- another Buffy/Angel double header.

[> [> [> That's what he said! (spoilers 4.10) -- Scroll, 21:01:08 01/29/03 Wed

I just rewound and watched that last bit 4 times (I covered my eyes and turned the volume up really high). Yes, Angel does say, "Buffy", and now I'm very confused as to why. Maybe he associates losing his soul with Buffy.

But I'm curious as to the creative reasoning behind it. Why would Joss be bringing up Buffy now? After 4 years of separating Angel into its own show? Over on Buffy we're seeing some very deliberate parallels and references to Season 2 and "Becoming". So maybe Joss is doing the same over on Angel? I'm not sure to what end, but it's fun to speculate!

As to the Beast's lines echoing Cordelia, I'm not sure they were exactly the same. But this ep had direct references to "Deep Down". Connor echoed Angel's lines, and Cordelia repeated hers from Angel's second hallucination. Clearly the idea of everything happening simply being in Angel's mind is made explicit. His dream of his family reunited, safe and happy, is merely an illusion. One that costs him his soul.

[> [> [> [> Re: That's what he said! (spoilers 4.10) -- lynx, 21:39:05 01/29/03 Wed

yes he did. i just checked closed captioning......

buffy! no! oh god no. oh sh..

Deja Vu All Over Again: Time Wonkiness and 'Help' (spoilers 7.4 - 7.13) -- cjl, 20:01:51 01/28/03 Tue

I wasn't here for the original board discussion (on a bus between Austria and Slovenia, I think), so I thought I'd share my thoughts about "Help," and how the ep relates to events up to 7.12 ("Potential") and beyond.

-- First of all, Michelle T. did another terrific job here, especially with the penultimate scene, when the gang congregates back at chez Summers, absolutely devastated by Cassie's death. Yes, her shriek can still blow out eardrums at 200 km, but she's a talented actress...

-- And about that penultimate scene: Dawn gives Buffy the strength to walk into that office the next morning, when the mighty Slayer was on the verge of bailing out. In hindsight, it strikes me that of all the Slayer wannabes bouncing around the Summers residence these days, it's DAWN who truly understands Why We Fight--for the chance to spend a few more precious moments with our friends and loved ones.
(Cassie was going to die--but hell, we're all going to die, one way or the other.) Buffy's intervention gave Cassie the chance to get to know Dawn, and vice versa, and their friendship affected Dawn--deeply. Buffy may feel like she failed, but she made a difference here. And she will again. (But more on this later.)

-- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer would kick down this door..." Once again, the schism between the counselor and the Slayer pops up, this time from the mouth of the woman in question. We keep seeing this split in Buffy, the tenderhearted counselor, the woman who is full of love and the almost ruthless Slayer who declares "I am the Law." The schism has grown more pronounced as the Season progresses...

-- Interesting how Xander the Seer, Mr. Vision Guy for S7, didn't see the congenital heart condition in Cassie's records. "Dead Zone"-type blind spot for Mr. Harris?

-- Speaking of seeing and precognition, here we go again with ME hinting that time is out of joint. Cassie is reading "Slaughterhouse-Five" by Kurt Vonnegut; "SH5" is the famous novel about a man who has become unstuck in time, experiencing the events of his life in random order. He bounces back and forth between his childhood, his horrifying experiences during WWII, and his "later" encounter with extra-dimensional aliens. Interesting passage near the end, when the protagonist describes the end of the universe: he knows the when and how of the catastrophic accident that destroys everything, but "preventing" it isn't an option. It happened before. It'll happen again. It will always happen. The event simply "is." (No wonder the traditional Tralfalmadorian greeting is "Hello... goodbye... hello.") Hmmm....

-- Did the Carrie/Tim/Dawn triumvirate remind anyone of S1 Buffy/Xander/Willow? It immediately jumped to mind when Buffy reacted to Dawn being Tim's second choice for the Winter Formal. Kind of like Willow being Xander's second choice in Prophecy Girl.

-- Cassie's main predictions still haven't come through yet. Buffy hasn't "told him" yet, and I don't think Buffy has gone deep "underground" the way Cassie meant it. If I hear JM right, I think this is all 7.22 material. Sounds very "dramatic conclusion in the maw of the Hellmouth" to me...

-- Always liked Xander's "power and control" analogy, and I think it applies to more than Willow this season. After reading all the Buddhist postings we've had lately, I think Buffy should listen to some of Xander's Zen Carpentry and stop trying to maintain TOTAL CONTROL of her environment. She can't do it; she has to let go...

-- I'm glad the visit to Tara's grave and the conversation with FE/Carrie in CWDP isn't the last of Willow's horrible guilt over the events of S6. Next week looks like a dilly. (I wonder if the credits will read "Adam Busch as Willow"?)

-- The demon-summoning students were lame, a pale imitation of the Fraternity in "Reptile Boy" (which I didn't think was that inspired to begin with). But I think this was a deliberate echo, with Buffy as the school counselor who's seen it all, even Sacrificial Rites to Attain Limitless Wealth and Power. (Yes, Tim Allen is Satan and his spawn has returned to rule the Earth. Mwahahahahaha....)

On second viewing, this wasn't a bad episode at all. I saw some major clues for the rest of the season. (But it's still not as strong as the episodes surrounding it.)

[> Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: Time Wonkiness and 'Help' (spoilers 7.4 - 7.13) -- Sometime Lurker, 20:10:47 01/28/03 Tue

But she has told Spike, I don't recall the exact episode but it was Buffy telling Spike that she believed in him that kept him going during the FE's torture.

[> [> Admittedly, it was a great thing for Spike to hear, but I don't think that's 'it.' -- cjl, 20:13:29 01/28/03 Tue

[> [> [> Me, neither. I don't think that was quite big enough to be prophecy-quality. -- Rob, 07:30:16 01/29/03 Wed

[> Spoilers for FUTURE episode in the start of this thread -- V, 20:40:50 01/28/03 Tue

[> [> Actually, only spoilers from next week's PROMO in the post. -- Rob, 21:14:14 01/28/03 Tue

[> Re: Deja Vu All Over Again: Time Wonkiness and 'Help' (spoilers 7.4 - 7.13) -- Sophist, 08:40:23 01/29/03 Wed

I wish I could agree with you on the merits of the episode. I still see 4 important flaws, at least 3 of which have been mentioned by others (Finn and someone else; sorry): the scene with the father is embarrassing; Cassie's speech goes on too long; the demon raising boys must have been intended as a parody of lame, but came across as just, well, lame.

The 4th count I'd add to this indictment is that Dawn's "friendship" with Cassie seemed forced. It should have been developed over 2-3 eps to make the emotional point.

That said, I do agree that Cassie's prophecies may have more mileage in them. I also think the episode is important in another way -- I believe Buffy's question at the end is, in essence, the theme of the season:

What do you do when you know that? When you know that maybe you can't help?

This seems to be the basic issue with the FE. Buffy doesn't yet know how to answer these questions, but I suspect there was a reason they chose to replay this ep going into Feb. sweeps.

[> [> What do you do when you know that maybe you can't help? -- cjl, 09:17:20 01/29/03 Wed

Yes, that is the major philosophical conundrum of the season.

Buffy, it seems, doesn't take well to the phrase "There was nothing you could do." She's the Slayer, she's the protector of humanity from the nasties of the world, and the past six seasons have taught her there's always a way to beat the bad guys and send everbody home happy. But with Cassie and now the First Evil, there doesn't seem to be a way to beat the bad guy. Just like with Joyce's brain tumor, there's no way for Buffy to "beat up" a congenital heart condition; and, continuing that thought on a metaphorical level, there's no way for Buffy to pound the evil out of the hearts of everyone on Earth.

The problem is, she seems to be trying anyway. She's obsessed with "winning" the game she's playing with the First Evil when she might be better off not playing. (See shadowkat's response to ponygirl's post on M. Night Shyalaman for a much better explanation of what I just said.) As the season has progressed, she's gradually pushed aside the real reasons why she's fighting (see my post at the start of this thread) and adopted an increasingly ruthless, win-at-all-costs policy. (More than one person on this board has noted a chilling similarity to the current world political climate. Personally, I think Joss and ME are more interested in the personal journey than political commentary, but I can't deny it's there.)

As lunasea pointed out in manwitch's massive thread below, Field Marshall von Buffy is now acting against her nature ("Love is your gift"). She's got to remember who she is, listen to her heart (Xander), spirit (Willow) and soul (Dawn [?]) before she literally becomes the arrogant apparition at the end of "Lessons."

[> [> [> That pretty much sums it up! -- ponygirl, 09:37:53 01/29/03 Wed

I think you've stated exactly where Buffy is at this point and her dilemma for the rest of the season. Nicely done!

[> [> [> Even if you can't beat evil that doesn't mean you should stop trying. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:04:05 01/29/03 Wed

There was nothing Buffy could have done to save Cassie's life. But, even if she believed the prophecy that there was nothing she could do, it still would have been wrong not to try. Even if she can't defeat evil, even if she knows she can't defeat it, she still has a resposibility to try and, in some cases, win. And, when you think about it, she did make a difference by allowing Cassie to die of natural causes rather than be murdered by high school boys and a demon.

This is sort of why I have a problem with people saying that Buffy's attitude about trying to defeat/destroy the First Evil is wrong. It may be true that she can't beat the First Evil (I repeat: may be true, that still isn't a certainity), and it may be true that the best she can do is simply contain the First, but she shouldn't TRY just for containment. She should try with all of her might to destroy the First Evil forever, even if it is impossible to achieve anything more than balance, as you say. Because balance isn't caused by trying to control the unbalanced force. Balance is caused by two equal forces opposing each other. So, while Buffy might end up keeping the balance only, it will be a result of her attempts to destroy the First.

I guess my argument sort of runs along the lines of this part of the song "The Impossible Dream":

To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go

To right the unrightable wrong
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star

What I'm trying to say is: the First Evil and evil in general may be impossible to defeat. But there is a moral responsibility to try with all your power to defeat it, even if the task can only result in a stalemate at best.

[> [> [> [> Nobody's arguing that Buffy shouldn't try to defeat the First Evil... -- cjl, 14:24:25 01/29/03 Wed

But what is she willing to do the achieve her goal? We've all grown rather disturbed over the past few weeks at the increasing disconnect between the Buffy we've all known and loved for six years, and the hardened, take-no-prisoners slayer who's trying to whip her troops into shape like a veteran military commander.

I think we're more concerned with the possibility that Buffy has lost sight of why she's fighting, about her increasing isolation from her friends and her sister, about her losing track of the ambiguities she's learned over the course of the series. She isn't approaching the problem of the First Evil from a "how do I protect the ones I love" perspective; she's approaching it from a "how do I kick this thing back to Hell" perspective. She seems more interested in beating the First Evil with the application of Raw Power; and with that attitude comes the danger of becoming the demon you're fighting.

This is the classic trap, but Buffy doesn't see it. The windows of the Summers house are blown out, and Buffy is metaphorically blind. Joyce keeps telling her that Evil is everywhere, and she has to WAKE UP to a new state of awareness, but the message hasn't sunk in.

Even in the brightest of souls, there is darkness inside, always waiting to overwhelm it. There has been a great deal of discussion on the board about Yeats and "The Second Coming," but we can add another interpretation to that classic poem:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

The Rough Beast is The First Evil, its hour come round at last, incubating, waiting to be born in the holiest of places. "Bethlehem" is Buffy herself.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Nobody's arguing that Buffy shouldn't try to defeat the First Evil... -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:24:22 01/29/03 Wed

Well, count me as one not worried about pseudo-military Buffy. Granted, she's always gone for the "how do I protect my friends" path before, but, as she says in "Bring on the Night": "It thinks we're just going to wait around for it to attack like we always do" (roughly paraphrased). In the past, a flaw of the Scooby Gang's has been not being too aggressive towards the Big Bad.

They pretty much ignored the Nerd Trio for a long time, they didn't start brainstorming about using the Dagon Sphere or Troll Hammer against Glory until she was just a few hours away from destroying the world, they failed to really set up any cooperation with the Initiative about going after Adam, they found out the Mayor was evil in "Consequences" but didn't "take the fight to (him)" till "Choices", everyone knows about Buffy's unwillingness to hunt down and kill Angelus, and it wasn't until the world was in iminant peril that they tried to do something about the Master.

In all of these cases, people died because Buffy and Co. were not doing what they're doing now: taking action against the Big Evil, rather than being forced to act when the Big Bad comes after them or is close to ending the world.

As for Buffy being less personal and more like a military leader recently, I have a couple points for you to consider: first, she's usually been in commander mode only when around the proto-Slayers, and to them she really is more of a commander and not nearly close enough to be a friend; and second, her actions towards Clem and Spike reveal that she isn't really hardened emotionally or being unambigous, rather she's acting that way because being the tough but still emotionally vulnerable Buffy we all know would disenhearten the scared and confused proto-Slayers and not inspire much confidence in her as a leader. Buffy only became commander girl after the potentials came under her care and one of them was killed because she didn't believe Buffy could protect them. At the moment, Buffy can't afford to show the more human side of herself because that would only lead to further loss of morale among the proto-Slayers, and possibly more deaths as a result.

As for your windows metaphor, I'd be careful. Remember last year how many people saw the house collapsing in "Smashed" as the barriers breaking down between Buffy and Spike so they could form a relationship?

And I think raw force will play an important role against the First Evil (perhaps not the only role, but the general trend of BtVS and statements made by the writers indicate that it will not be a simple pacifist solution like the finale of Season Six).

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Nobody's arguing ... (SPOILERS for Potential) -- Robert, 18:49:53 01/29/03 Wed

I see the current situation completely differently. In addition to Finn Mac Cool's very nice article above, I would also add the following.

>>> I think we're more concerned with the possibility that Buffy has lost sight of why she's fighting, about her increasing isolation from her friends and her sister,

Buffy is desparate to protect friends, family and her new charges. In seasons past, generally Buffy's friends and family weren't directly attacked, at least till near the end of the season. This season, the First Evil has been nipping at Buffy's heals from the very first episodes(assuming that the physical manifestations in the school basement were the work of the FE).

The FE sent its minions into Buffy's house in Sleeper and the turok-Han in Showtime. Buffy didn't declare war until after the FE had already directly attacked her and her friends.

In short, I do not for a second believe that Buffy has lost sight of why she is fighting. She is fighting for her life and the lives of friends, family and charges. Even though she doesn't know yet how or if the FE can be defeated, just fighting it to a temporary stalemate is all she can do. To do less might lose it all.

>>> She isn't approaching the problem of the First Evil from a "how do I protect the ones I love" perspective;

Protecting the ones she loves is precisely what she is concerned with. Recall the following dialogue from Potential.

BUFFY
I was gonna take the girls out for a
little show and tell tonight, maybe
now I shouldn't.
ANDREW
(disappointed)
Oh, they were so excited. You're
going to break their little hearts.
BUFFY
This town is lousy with Bringers, I
don't want to take the risk that they
find her first.
WILLOW
No, you should go. I can do a spell
to find her tonight. I just need to
get together a few ingredients. You
shouldn't skip your training, it's
too important.
BUFFY
You think you can handle it?
XANDER
No problemo.

The safety of the potential slayers is very important to her. The war has already started. The potential slayers are in immediate threat of death from the Bringers.

>>> ... and the hardened, take-no-prisoners slayer who's trying to whip her troops into shape like a veteran military commander.

Thanks to the Bringers, there is no one else to train them, and they must have training to survive. Buffy cannot single-handedly protect everyone. Buffy's friends and family already have considerable training. In order to get the potential slayers up to speed as quickly as possible, Buffy has taken the role of drill instructor. The job of the drill instructor is to first teach the raw recruits for follow orders. Annabelle did not follow orders. She panicked and died as a result. If Buffy's behavior is hard, the situation most certainly calls for it.

>>> ... about her losing track of the ambiguities she's learned over the course of the series.

Yes, well I don't think ambiguity was much of a consideration to Buffy while the turok-Han was beating the holy living shit out of her.

>>> ... she's approaching it from a "how do I kick this thing back to Hell" perspective.

Well, at this point, Buffy knows only two alternatives. She either defeats the FE or everyone she loves dies. Until there is a third choice, I don't see Buffy as reasonably taking a different approach.

A question about Oz. -- Rob, 21:10:29 01/28/03 Tue

I was looking throug the shooting scripts, and I couldn't find an answer to this question. I thought maybe there might be something in "Phases" I might have overlooked.

Anyway, here goes...

Does anyone know how long before "Phases" occurred Oz was bitten by his cousin, Jordy? I'm just trying to figure out for my Inca Mummy Girl annotations whether he had been lycanthrope-d yet by that point, whether it wasn't till more recently before "Phases" or whether we don't know either way. I would assume it would have to be close to "Phases" since he didn't start to notice weird things going on until then, but does anyone know for sure?

Rufus or anyone else who loves trudging through scripts? I'd really appreciate the help! Thanks! :o)

Rob

[> Re: A question about Oz. -- Dan The Man, 21:33:09 01/28/03 Tue

Rob,

Oz was just bitten very recently before Phases occurs. This exchange between Larry and Oz in Gym during the episode.

"Oh, last week some huge dog jumped out of the bushes and bit me. Thirty-nine stitches. They ought shoot those strays." - Larry
"I've been there, man. (holds up his finger) My cousin Jordy just got his grownup teeth in? Does not like to be tickled." - Oz

Remember Jordy is the wolf that infected Oz as we find out later in the episode.

Dan The Man

[> [> Cool. Thanks! -- Rob, 22:05:07 01/28/03 Tue

[> [> It was that exchange that made them think Larry might be the wolf. -- Helen, 01:46:54 01/29/03 Wed

[> Rob, another thing for IMG -- KdS, 08:32:38 01/29/03 Wed

Don't know if it's too much of a production thing to include, but Inca Mummy Girl is one of only three BtVS episodes in which a credited regular cast member (DB) does not appear. (The others are The Body (JM) and Conversations with Dead People (NB and EC).)

id, ego, superego.... -- Sigmundi Freud, 23:56:06 01/28/03 Tue

(spoken in Viennese accent, with cigar in hand)

...It is obvious that the self is split into conflicting components, causing turmoil to arise in the person, repressing drives, most often of a sexual nature...

The "ego" is the one you call "Buffy." She is all action, yes? no forethought. She takes what she wants, does as she pleases,... ah, but no, she does not do as she pleases, because she is torn by the conflicting drives of the insticts and the need for conformity to society.

Thhe "id" is the one you call "Xander." He is all about me, now, what feels good, no? The pleasure principle, oral gratification, always with the snacks, but he is never satisfied. What he wants is the whole self to love him and only him, but this cannot be, so he is jealous of the 'other.' But he is dependent on approval. So he pretends to want the other, to please the ego and superego.

This "superego" is the one you call "Willow." always the moralizer - or the rationalizer. Not really rational, since the reasoning is never consistent. She tells your ego it must accept and submit to moral codes, but she is secretly attracted to the very id she tries to repress. So she justifies her transgressions by placing them in her own moral code, a rationalization, if you will, of her own goodness no matter what. And if she cannot rationalize, she can project or sublimate or punish herself with guilt and shame.

Ah, but they themselves are so torn, that they can only exist by splitting themselves again, so that there can be the 'other' within themselves to love, and to hate. The light and the dark of each.

The good id sacrifices desire for approval, but the dark id, the one called "Cordelia," or then sometimes "Anya," is petulent, self-loving, knows with certainty that its drives are the only real significance. It needs the other id to join it, but the good id needs the others too much.

The good ego is heroic in action, but the bad ego, the ones you call 'the vampires' which are typified by this "Spike," are all action unmediated by the id or superego. Not moral, but not quite natural, either, taking perverse pleasure in denying nature and morality.

The good superego justifies and rationalizes. The bad superego, the one you call "Angel," is pure shame and guilt, a total denial of the pleasure longed for by the id. It is also a denial of the will of the ego, because it knows it does not deserve to act except in service, never for love or expression of life. It knows it cannot be trusted to feel any pleasure, because has been very bad. Of course, the two superegos are both so good at transference and projection that they seem to switch roles at times, from bad to good, punishing to loving to guilt...

You need to integrate these disjointed neurotic splits, and become a whole self, if you want to truly be an adult, capable of true intimacy and wisdom. You know this, you have felt the beginnings of this integration, now that you have seen the split. For you see that you are indeed an "I", an integrated, intelligent adult, who seems to be "watching" the others from outside, the one you call "Giles." But you do not let him love, or marry, or have children, because you know you are not an adult yet, not yet even a whole person.

We will talk about your mother at our next session, and this father-figure obsession you have....

(and i stick the cigar in my mouth and suck, thinking myself very clever, certainly not projecting my own psyche onto that of my patients...)

[> Re: id, ego, superego.... -- Drizzt, 01:58:18 01/29/03 Wed

Neato;)

Also, amusing in an intillectual way;)

If you are a reg poster with a pseudynoum; cool.
If you are a lurker, and this is your first post; I reccomend you check out "The collected Musings of Shadowcat"

She is my second fave poster here;)

I would enjoy reading a conversation between you two.

[> Good points- and very funny -- Tchaikovsky, 02:09:01 01/29/03 Wed

It ends with Darla? (Angel Odyssey 1.20-1.22) -- Tchaikovsky, 08:32:18 01/29/03 Wed

Don't have that much to say about these three episodes, which seemed a slightly odd anti-climax to the 'Five by Five'/'Sanctuary' double for all but a few moments in 'To Shanshu in LA'.

1.20 War Zone

An interesting introduction to Gunn. There's a classic mislead in the pan-up on him at the end of the teaser: 'What you were expecting someone else?'. Of course, fighting demons in a dark, seedy backstreet, we expect Angel. And as there's no 'previously' section, the trick works all the better. It seems as if the scene will be invested with some special importance for Angel, and instead we don't see him at all.

Somewhere deep down, the episode is meditating on wealth. We have David Nabbit, the bloke with all the money, but no social skills. Angel, an average-ly well-off vampire with few social skills, and Gunn, a leader of men, with a very powerful relationship with his sister Alonna. We might be expected to see an obvious subversion here- that the person with the least monetary wealth has the greatest spiritual wealth. But it's not that simple or neat. Gunn loses her sister, and has only his unending war to keep him going. Angel's life is other- he still can't lead the life of a human, even with an average human's money. But even great amounts of money can't buy assuredness, with David Nabbit still feeling uncomfortable.

The triumvirate is an interesting parallel, and Gunn's subsequent hang-up, (at least affected) with white men plays interestingly off their superior wealth.

Otherwise, I was largely quite bored. Too much fighting which isn't really my interest, too many dark-lit apparently suspenseful scenes.

1.21 Blind Date

Here we see Angel again trying to help someone whom he sees some of himself in. Lindsey, despite Angel's help, is lured back to the dark side by money and fortune. In this, the essential darkness of this series is shown. In Buffy, it seems that people are essentially good, and a only a history of abuse or a strong will allows them to pervert the natural status quo. In Angel, the natural attraction of the 'pureness' of evil, its clarity, means that everyone must constantly struggle to understand and act on impulses which can be perceived as 'good'. but 'good' is so often hard. To a degree, that's what ME were going for in Season Six, and, due to the revolutionary moral philosophy that implied to the Buffyverse, it confused many people. Suddenly the status quo was fragile, and perosnal morality was edgier and elss easy to understand. Angel's ethics invaded Sunnydale.

I enjoyed the performance of Christian Kane as Lindsey, and Holland Manners is also a really good character- with wisdom and a degree of insouciance which mostly covers, (and sometimes accentuates), his obvious power.

Angel's despairing speech about evil is interesting. Good can never win outright. It's an ongoing struggle.

1.22 To Shanshu in LA

Never understood all the 'Shanshu' debates on the board properly until now. I spent a proportion of this episode pondering just how, in the (I suppose imaginary), primal language, how 'death' also means 'life'. The yin and yang of life and death, of birth and re-birth, of crucifixion and resurrection, of matyrdom and the continuing world, is such an ultimate question.

Although, as a finale, this episode was better than many, it still wasn't invested quite with the zing of many Buffy finales. This is mostly due to the lack of a seasonal arc, which I can accept as part of the show's anthology feel, (for now at least). There were a few excellent Greenwaltian lines for Cordelia: I think he underestimates how much other writers have developed her sometimes, but he is still master of writing her occasional vacuousness and humour.

'Family' has been a crucially important word for the Season. It's there in 'Expecting'. It's there again in 'The Prodigal', and twice importantly in 'To Shanshu'. First, Angel exasperatedly tells the hospital ward he is family, as if it is obvious. Next, Cordelia drops it when shes encouraging Angel to drink his blood. Just as yabyumpan wrote earlier, the whole latter part of the season is about these three outcasts, outcasts from Sunnydale and from LA, forge their own family. It's a story repeatedly as powerfully in microcosm in Tara's 'Family' in Buffy's Season Five.

Enjoyed the last scene with Angel, Cordelia and Wesley immensely. It was nice to see how it alternated between funny, full of emotional depth, and with the revelation about Angel. A revelation which essentially gives strength to Angel's journey, and imbues the show with a kind of forward momentum, which, at times this season, I would argue it has been lacking.

The very last scene? I thought Joss wasn't a fan of cliffhangers. But if that isn't a cliffhanger, I don't know what is. Sneakily, however, I don't have to wait three months for the next season.

A few questions I've been holding onto:
-Does Faith have a surname?
-Why is the video containing 'The Prodigal', 'The Ring', 'Eternity' and 'Five by Five' an 18, when most of them are 15?
-How does Season One rank amongst followers of 'Angel' compared to the subsequent two seasons, (three if you're feeling talkative [should that be write-ative?])?

At the moment, I think that 'Angel' has had a potential throughout, (since the excellent 'City of'), which it hasn't really been able to capitalise on except in rare flashes, ('Hero', 'I've Got You Under My Skin'), or with the help of the Buffyverse's creations, ('Five by Five', 'Sanctuary'). I think this is partly due to an inconsistency in writing, and partly due to a lack of focus. However, I've managed to find some message in most episodes, which means it is at least engaging me on an intellectual as well as emotional level, which suggests that it IS a rare show on television. But I think for the moment, it has to do a lot more somersaults before it comes anywhere close ot Buffy.

TCH- off to put his boat into harbour temporarily, for a pause in the trip to Ithaca.

[> Re: It ends with Darla? (Angel Odyssey 1.20-1.22) -- Rob, 09:07:50 01/29/03 Wed

Can't say I agree with you about "To Shanshu" being anti-climactic, although I do understand what you mean about it losing a bit of its impact since there wasn't a strong season-long arc. Still, I thought it was great.

About seasonal rankings, most people would rank season one the lowest, in comparison to the others. Personally, I would have said I rank each season better than the one before, but I want to withhold my season 4 judgment till the end of the year. For now, I'll say, out of the complete seasons, Season 3 was the best, season 2 the second, season 1 the third. I will tell you that there are moments of such brilliance in this series, and there are episodes, particularly mid-season 3, that will leave you absolutely breathless. In fact one in particular, "Sleep Tight," I watched almost the whole episode standing up and pacing in my room because I was so tense I couldn't sit still! I think you'll really enjoy the upcoming seasons, because of the story arcs. Another cool thing about "Angel" seasons is that they operate differently than "Buffy" seasons. Instead of one long seasonal arc that starts at the beginning and culminates in a huge season ender, each "Angel" season seems to be comprised of mini-seasons. You can divide seasons 2 and 3 each into at least 3 distinct "mini-seasons." It's a very interesting way to present the story, because it feels almost like a long play divided into acts. The second season, for example, really ends its "season-long" arc 5 episodes before the end of the season. What follows is a short, new story arc that plays on themes that have occurred before and foreshadows future events. Quite brilliant, actually. You'll see what I mean.

In my opinion, "Angel" never surpasses "Buffy." I love both shows, but that's just how I feel. However, there are times when "Angel" has equaled "Buffy" in greatness, or come very close. So I don't know if you'll ever see "Angel" as the superior show. It's particularly hard for me in particular since I've been watching "Buffy" so much longer. You'll probably come across the same internal resistance. I care about the characters on "Buffy" more. But with all that said, I predict you'll reach the level of Angel fandom I have attained. I think you'll find that it does meet and exceed its potential, is absolutely brilliant at times, and is a worthy companion show to "Buffy."

Be prepared for the next couple of seasons. You're about to venture into some very dark territory. ;o)

Rob

[> [> A couple of things -- Tchaikovsky, 02:50:46 01/30/03 Thu

'I predict you'll reach the level of Angel fandom I have attained'

Well, if your level of Angel fandom is analogous to your level of Buffy fandom, I don't think I have a chance! I do love the show, but your ability to really enjoy virtually every episode and find the best in everything leaves me gasping at times. I don't think I have the necessary optimism, (or even energy!) to rival you. However, I do hope that I grow to love the series. It needs a bit of a jump in quality at the moment for me.

I should flesh out my really badly-written line at the start of my post above, which doesn't at all reflect what I actually thought. I wrote:

'Don't have that much to say about these three episodes, which seemed a slightly odd anti-climax to the 'Five by Five'/'Sanctuary' double for all but a few moments in 'To Shanshu in LA'.'

The dangers of cramming too much into too few words strikes here. What I really meant was something along the lines of the following.

I didn't mind 'War Zone' or 'Blind Date'. I thought they were sericeable episodes, and certainly not an affront to the viewing audience in the way that just a couple of episodes this season were, [ummm, these being 'She' and er..., well, you know.] These two seemed however not be at the same level of suspense and excitement as the previous two episodes. However, this isn't that surprising, as there isn't really an arrowed progression leading up to the '1812' cannon fire of the finale. As a result of being heavily invested in the previous two episodes, I didn't really feel the need to write much on these two. On the other hand, 'To Shanshu in LA' was a perfectly good finale, probably in my top five of episodes in the season, ('City of.., 'Heroes', 'I've Got You Under My Skin', 'Sanctuary'), and at times was a fair climax to the season. But due to the anthology feel, the inability to equal 'Sanctuary' made it just slightly off what I might have been expecting.

Now you see, I've written 200 words instead of 30, and I think that might be more along the lines of what I really thought.

Somebody mentioned the mim-arcs before, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that works, although I didn't see too much evidence of it in this season, (I suppose you could say Doyle's death was a watershed, but again, there wasn't that much forward movement. The individual episodes mostly had their own space).

Anyway, thanks for your post. It keeps my enthusiasm up a little.

TCH

[> [> [> Re: A couple of things -- Rob, 06:32:57 01/30/03 Thu

"Well, if your level of Angel fandom is analogous to your level of Buffy fandom, I don't think I have a chance! I do love the show, but your ability to really enjoy virtually every episode and find the best in everything leaves me gasping at times. I don't think I have the necessary optimism, (or even energy!) to rival you. However, I do hope that I grow to love the series. It needs a bit of a jump in quality at the moment for me."

LOL! But I am actually a little more nitpicky about "Angel" than "Buffy." Not that I don't really love it, but when something bothers me on "Angel," it sometimes REALLY bothers me, whereas "Buffy," not so much. ;o) But, honestly, I think you probably will enjoy the next couple of seasons, because they focus more on Angel as a character and consequences for unfortunate, misguided, or altogether bad behavior on behalf of our hero (and in the third season, other characters). I will give you a heads-up, though that probably the first batch of episodes of the 2nd and 3rd seasons won't impress you that much, since it takes a while for the stories to get rollin'. "Angel" tends to start the season off with standalone episodes, go into a story arc, break it up with a few standalones, back into the next story arc. The pattern kinda broke this year, though.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Amended statement -- Rob, 08:02:09 01/30/03 Thu

Actually, the second ep of season 2 will probably knock your socks off and basking in the glow of the glory that is Tim Minear.

Rob

[> Agreeing with Rob and the rating issue -- KdS, 09:38:06 01/29/03 Wed

Firstly agreeing with Rob about the low reputation of S1. I think that within the first few episodes of S2 you'll see a difference almost as big as between BtVS S1 and S2.

On the ratings issue, I think the 18 rating was because of Faith's use of an aerosol can as a flame thrower in 5 By 5. The BBFC is very worried about household objects used as weapons in a potentially imitable manner.

[> [> Aha -- Tchaikovsky, 02:36:22 01/30/03 Thu

In a slightly odd way, I was bumbling through the four episodes waiting to be slightly shocked by something. I came ot the conclusion it must have been in 'Five by Five', but couldn't quite work out why.

It does strike me as a bit odd that (hypothetically) two years ago I would have been restricted from seeing that scene, but would have been able to see Spike's attempted rape of Buffy (rated 15). I suppose imitation is a factor, but it seems oddly inconsistent to me. Mind you, it surprises me how much violence the BBFC allows in 12s when a couple of swear words automatically get a film a 15 rating. So I suppose I'm not really in the right mindset.

TCH

[> Season one -- CW, 12:31:51 01/29/03 Wed

I think a lot of people couldn't get enthusiastic about season one because it didn't have a dramatic defining overall theme like each Buffy season has had. But, in some ways I think season one was the best season Angel has had. There were a few particularly weak episodes like I Fall to Pieces (1-4) and The Bachelor Party (1-7), but I Will Remember You (1-8), Eternity (1-17) and Five by Five (1-18) were not only excellent episodes of Angel, but, I my opinion they were better than any single episodes of Buffy that year and that includes Restless which is certainly one of my all time favorites. The appearance of SMG on Angel was a defining moment. Either it was going to be clear that DB could carry the series or that he needed help. They were glorious together on screen again. But, when it was over it was clear that Angel the series didn't need the character Buffy just to survive. One of the things that I feel has weakened the Angel series is that DB has been acting less and less on show. All the new characters are fine, but none of them have the depth that Angel himself had the first season.

Frankly I was bored by season two. To me Darla was about as sexy as a wet brown paper towel and just about desirable. I was happier every moment Julie Benz was off the screen. I almost quit watching, but the reappeance of Dru changed things and Julie seemed to feed off Juliet's acting and became better herself. The Pylea business at the end seemed like a desperate attempt to rescue a story even ME had gotten bored with.

Season three was always intriguing, and I liked it better than season two. But, after the magical appearance of Dawn the year before on Buffy, Connor the miracle baby was all too familiar. If anything the father and son relationship has been a more interesting idea than the big sis, little sis of Dawn and Buffy. But where the Buffy series seemed to understand that the introducing of Dawn needed some acknowledgement that she wasn't supposed to be there and needed to spend time on what that meant to everyone, Connor was dumped not once, but twice in everyone's lap on Angel. The part of Wesley got better that year, but he wasn't particularly likable. Fred quickly devolved from someone very different and interesting in the environment to just another female character for the males to fuss over. And most of all again I missed DB acting instead of just reacting to the misfortune of the week. I have to say that Angel's attraction for Cordelia and her elevation to a 'higher being' were just nonsense from everything we knew about her before. Still I felt it was better than seson two.

No comment on season four other than I've lost interest and no longer watch the show.

[> [> TCH, there are spoilers in this post. -- Rob, 21:23:04 01/29/03 Wed

[> [> Sneakily able to respond -- Tchaikovsky, 02:32:25 01/30/03 Thu

I read Rob's warning- but- being someone who has an inveterate desire to sneak into potentially spoiling posts just in case they're interesting, I went in winking with one eye and the other just a little open. So I've read the first paragraph only.

On the first season. I'm interested that you think that in some ways it is the best Season. It also seems to contrast with KdS and Rob, which is always I good thing, as it encourages me to make my own opinion rather than going along with the masses. B ut I do disagree with you on several points on Season One, although I suspect it's a matter of personal taste, so I'll keep it relatively short.

I personally rather liked 'I Fall To Pieces'. Oddly enough, my favourite episodes don't really tally; I disliked 'I Will Remember You', thought 'Eternity' was average, and while liking 'Five by Five' a lot, I preferred 'Sanctuary'. I would certainly mention 'Heroes' and 'I've Got You Under My Skin', but I don't think I'd contend that any of these, (or any other episode), is better than 'Restless', which for me is the best episode I've ever seen. Funny, revealing, conter-intuive, auteuristic, revealing, well-structured, unstructured, full of narrative tension, lacking in narrative tautness. It was full of paradoxes, and it's deeply serious but highly playful.

Shall keep your Season One thoughts in mind as I continue, though. There were certainly a few moments in the Season where I was overwhelmed with glee, but I personally need my opinion of Season Two to be better than Season One in order that I continue watching. For the moment, I think its potential is being somewhat wasted.

TCH

[> [> [> I Fall to Pieces -- CW, 07:21:05 01/30/03 Thu

I did like the actress who played Melissa Burns very much, but the villain made less and less sense to me the more I watched it. Happy viewing!

[> [> [> Re: Sneakily able to respond -- Rahael, 10:28:20 01/30/03 Thu

You should definitely keep watching until S3 - it doesn't reach its full potential until then. I had a personal prejudice against Darla so a lot of S2 didn't work for me. However, I think having Season 3, Darla now does work for me, so I think I'm going to watch retrospectively.

AtS Season 3 is probably going to be my fave season of both BtVS and AtS. Season 4 might be a close challenger. A lot depends on how the arcs wraps up.

[> [> [> [> Stowing this viewpoint away -- Tchaikovsky, 10:53:30 01/30/03 Thu

There seem to be a lot of varying opinions on the season ranking thing. Very interesting.

Hope you're enjoying your holiday.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> Having a great time! -- Rahael, 21:03:59 01/30/03 Thu

And there's tons of snow everywhere!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Funny you should say that! -- Tchaikovsky, 01:47:38 01/31/03 Fri

There's a little bit of snow on the ground where I am, (only about half an inch), but the whole of the South East of England has come to a complete stand-still! I've been listening to Radio Five, where people have been ringing in, having been stuck on the M11 for 17 hours. It seems that England just can't cope with the white stuff.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Funny you should say that! -- trilby, 07:05:41 01/31/03 Fri

Wow, are you joking? I'm from Crawley, but studying in the US. I can't remember the last time it snowed like that!

[> [> cjl's review of ANGEL Season 1 (First of an annoying occasional series) -- cjl, 11:42:41 01/30/03 Thu

S1 - Excellent pilot episode. I was awed by the use of location shooting; it broadened the visual pallette of the Whedonverse considerably, adding an edge that's simply impossible to produce in "Sunnydale." Also loved the original trio of Angel, Doyle, and Cordelia, an excellent balancing of personalities. The early "anthology" format was a hit ("Sense and Sensitivity") or miss proposition, mostly miss ("I Fall to Pieces"). The more successful episodes either brought in a guest star (Spike, "In the Dark") or featured a regular in crisis (i.e., Cordy in "Rm w/a Vu"). IWRY and Hero completely missed the mark for me. Way, WAY overdone, borderline cheesy. (Although I did sniffle when they replayed Doyle's Last Tape.)

When Wesley came in, script quality was still up and down, as we had mediocre eps like "Expecting," "The Ring," and (get the airsick bags out, kids) "She." (Brrr...) But as we approached the end of the season, we saw the move towards the serial plotline. Wolfram and Hart was a steadier presence, and the character of Wesley shifted out of hopeless dork mode during the Faith two-parter and the stellar "I've Got You Under My Skin." However, nothing prepared us for the salty goodness that was "To Shanshu in L.A.," which served as a virtual second pilot for the series as much as the post-Superbowl ep of Alias did last Sunday night.

[> [> [> Agree with almost everything except... -- Tchaikovsky, 13:43:27 01/30/03 Thu

...this being annoying!

Slightly prefer 'The Ring' and 'I Fall to Pieces' to you.

Slightly less keen on 'To Shanshu in LA'.

Otherwise I'm tallying.

TCH

[> [> [> [> Season 1 ratings, episode by episode (scale of 1 to 10) -- cjl, 14:10:40 01/30/03 Thu

CITY OF Original airdate: October 5, 1999. Written by: Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt. Directed by: Joss Whedon. Guest stars: Tracy Middendorf as Tina, Vyto Ruginis as Russell Winters, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald.

CJL's Rating: 10 out of 10.

LONELY HEART Original airdate: October 12, 1999. Written by: David Fury. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Lillian Birdsell as Sharon, Obi Ndefo as the bartender.

Rating: 7 out of 10.

IN THE DARK (Crossover with Buffy - "The Harsh Light of Day") Original airdate: October 19, 1999. Written by: Douglas Petrie. Directed by: Bruce Seth Green. Guest stars: James Marsters as Spike, Seth Green as Oz, Malia Mathis as Rachel, Kevin West as Marcus.

Rating: 8 out of 10. Upped a notch for Spike's opening monologue, the funniest extended speech in the history of either series.

I FALL TO PIECES Original airdate: October 26, 1999. Written by: David Greenwalt. Directed by: Vern Gillum. Guest stars: Tushka Bergen as Melissa Burns, Andy Umberger as Dr. Ronald Meltzer, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Carlos Carrasco as Dr. Vinpur Natpudan.

Rating: 6 out of 10. Creepy without being suspenseful, and verging on silly.

RM W/A VU Original airdate: November 2, 1999. Written by: Jane Espenson. Directed by: Scott McGinnis. Guest stars: Beth Grant as Maude Pearson, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Markus Redmond as Griff.

Rating: 9 out of 10. The bitch is back, baby.

SENSE AND SENSITIVITY Original airdate: November 9, 1999. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, John Capodice as Tony Papazian, John Mahon as Trevor Lockley, Ron Marasco as Allen Lloyd, Thomas Burr as Lee Mercer.

Rating: 9 out of 10. Welcome, Tim Minear. Funny and a razor-sharp satire of California's crunchy-granola version of therapy.

THE BACHELOR PARTY Original airdate: Novermber 16, 1999. Written by: Tracey Stern. Directed by: David Straiton. Guest stars: Kristin Dattilo as Harry, Carlos Jacott as Richard.

Rating: 7 out of 10. Interesting background ep for Doyle, and it shines a light on demon culture in L.A.

I WILL REMEMBER YOU (Crossover with Buffy - "Pangs") Original airdate: November 23, 1999. Written by: David Greenwalt and Jeannine Renshaw. Directed by: David Grossman. Guest stars: Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy Summers, Carey Cannon and Randall Slavin as the Oracles.

Rating: 7 out of 10. Overwrought.

HERO Original airdate: November 30, 1999. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: Tucker Gates. Guest stars: Lee Arenberg as Tiernan, Tony Denman as Rieff, Michelle Horn as Rayna, Sean Gunn as Lucas, Anthony Cistaro as Scourge Commander.

Rating: 6 out of 10. See IWRY above. Bombastic to the point of near-idiocy. Saved from a lower score by the final view of Doyle on videotape. A quiet, powerful scene.

PARTING GIFTS Original airdate: December 14, 1999. Written by: David Fury and Jeannine Renshaw. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Alexis Denisof as Wesley Wyndam-Pryce, Maury Sterling as Barney, Carey Cannon and Randall Slavin as the Oracles.

Rating: 8 out of 10. The Rogue Demon Hunter arrives. Wes is more pitiable than laughable, though, and his essential loneliness and sense of inadequacy will get big play--soon.

SOMNAMBULIST Original airdate: January 18, 2000. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: Winrich Kolbe. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Jeremy Renner as Penn.

Rating: 10 out of 10. Minear strikes again.

EXPECTING Original airdate: January 25, 2000. Written by: Howard Gordon. Directed by: David Semel. Guest stars: Ken Marino as Wilson Christopher, Daphnee Duplaix as Serena.

Rating: 6.5 out of 10. Only slightly above average, and the demon seed angle was beyond cliche. But Wesley's concern for Cordy was genuinely touching and made the episode somewhat bearable...

SHE Original airdate: February 8, 2000. Written by: David Greenwalt and Marti Noxon. Directed by: David Greenwalt. Guest stars: Bai Ling as Jhiera, Colby French as Tay, Heather Stephens as Shari.

Rating: 4.5 out of 10. Incomprehensible. Godawful. Perhaps the worst ep of either series.

I'VE GOT YOU UNDER MY SKIN Original airdate: February 15, 2000. Written by: Jeannine Renshaw. Directed by: R.D. Price. Guest stars: Jesse James as Ryan, Will Kempe as Seth, Katy Boyer as Paige, Anthony Cistaro as Ethros demon, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley.

Rating: 9.5 out of 10. Now we're talking. First sign of layers in Wesley's character, and the soul-less child was a truly chilling creation.

THE PRODIGAL Original airdate: February 22, 2000. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: Bruce Seth Green. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, John Mahon as Trevor Lockley, Julie Benz as Darla, J. Kenneth Campbell as Angel's father.

Rating: 9.5 out of 10. One of the most important eps of the series. For this point on, you realize Angel is trying to recapture the family life he himself destroyed.

THE RING Original airdate: February 29, 2000. Written by: Howard Gordon. Directed by: Nick Marck. Guest stars: Markus Redmond as Cribb, Douglas Roberts as Darren, Scott William Winters as Jack, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Juan A. Riojas as Trepkos.

Rating: 6.5 out of 10. Nothing special, but solid Wes/Cordy rapport as they try to rescue the Boss. And we're introduced to Lilah.

ETERNITY Original airdate: April 4, 2000. Written by: Tracey Stern. Directed by: Regis B. Kimble. Guest stars: Tamara Gorski as Rebecca Lowell, Michael Mantell as Oliver Simon.

Rating: 8.5 out of 10. Three relatively uninspired acts setting up a phenomenal conclusion. Always liked Ms. Gorski on Hercules and she was excellent here, as well. (Thinking about this episode only makes the wait for "Soulless" even longer....)

FIVE BY FIVE Original airdate: April 25, 2000. Written by: Jim Kouf. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Eliza Dushku as Faith, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Thomas Burr as Lee Mercer, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie Benz as Darla.

SANCTUARY Original airdate: May 2, 2000. Written by: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear. Directed by: Michael Lange. Guest stars: Eliza Dushku as Faith, Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy Summers, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Thomas Burr as Lee Mercer, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Alastair Duncan as Collins, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley.

Combined Rating: 9.5 out of 10. Wow. The three-way confrontation between Faith, Wes and Angel at the end of 5X5 was breathtaking.

WAR ZONE Original airdate: May 9, 2000. Written by: Garry Campbell. Directed by: David Straiton. Guest stars: J. August Richards as Gunn, Michele Kelly as Alonna, David Herman as David Nabbit, Maurice Compte as Chain.

Rating: 7 out of 10. Thinking back on this ep, I almost wish they'd kept JAR as a semi-regular and let him stay with his gang. He had a lot more energy as the tormented head man than he does as Angel's hired muscle.

BLIND DATE Original airdate: May 16, 2000. Written by: Jeannine Renshaw. Directed by: Thomas J. Wright. Guest stars: Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Thomas Burr as Lee Mercer, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, J. August Richards as Gunn, Jennifer Badger Martin as Vanessa Brewer.

Rating: 8 out of 10.

TO SHANSHU IN L.A. Original airdate: May 23, 2000. Written and directed by: David Greenwalt. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Todd Stashwick as Vocah, Carey Cannon and Randall Slavin as the Oracles, David Herman as David Nabbit, J. August Richards as Gunn, Julie Benz as Darla.

Rating: 10 out of 10. A new menace. A new purpose. And Darla's re-emergence was a mind-blower...

Thanks to Loey's Guide to Angel for the airdate and credits.

[> [> [> [> [> Too much fun to pass up -- Tchaikovsky, 01:45:27 01/31/03 Fri

I'm going to be slightly more cavalier with my ratings than you though- I thought giving 'She' 4.5 was very generous

City Of...: 9
Lonely Hearts: 5
In the Dark: 8
I Fall To Pieces: 6
Rm w/a Vu: 7
Sense and Sensitivity: 9
The Bachelor Party: 5
I Will Remember You: 3 (I'm sorry but Bleurgh)
Heroes: 8
Parting Gifts: 6
Somnambulist: 8
Expecting: 5
She: 2
I've Got You Under My Skin: 9
The Prodigal: 8
The Ring: 7
Five by Five: 9
Sanctuary: 10
War Zone: 4
Blind Date: 6
To Shanshu in LA: 9

For any explanation of these, please refer to the Odyssey, which is now in the Archives.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry -- Tchaikovsky, 04:31:55 01/31/03 Fri

Trying to remember off the top of my head- forgot Eternity.
Eternity 6

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> My ratings! -- Rob, 08:10:44 01/31/03 Fri

City Of...: 10 (pretty much a perfect pilot)

Lonely Hearts: 7 (not the best ep ever, but pretty solid--creepy demon and some nice thematic work. Great intro to Kate, and exploration of Angel's isolation)

In the Dark: 8 (I agree with you, TCH. Great character moments. Spike was wonderful. Way above average ep, with another creepy villain...the torturer with a slightly pedophilac bend)

I Fall To Pieces: 7 (I actually enjoyed this ep. I thought it was, again, creepy, and very original)

Rm w/a Vu: 9.5 (finally a Cordy ep, and what a great one! She finally returns to her Queen C roots, and again, creepy ghost with a very cool "Cask of Amontillado" allusion)

Sense and Sensitivity: 9 (great comedy, great exploration of the characters)

The Bachelor Party: 7 (again, I thought this ep was a blast, while most people rated it lowly. Any peek into Doyle's past is cool with me, and I liked the comedy mined from the seemingly normal everyday family who happened to have these bizarre braineating rituals)

I Will Remember You: 10 (Obviously, the biggest dichotomy we've had so far between reviews. I thought it was brilliant through and through, and now is particularly cool to compare to "Awakening," because you can compare his idea of the perfect day from then to now)

Heroes: 10 (I thought it was brilliant, also, very cinematic and heartbreaking)

Parting Gifts: 8 (Great intro to Wes. A fun, if somewhat flimsy, story, but most important a nice establishment of the new family dynamic)

Somnambulist: 9 (Angel's past....wheeeee! Consequnces for former actions....wheeeeeee! Kate's discovery....wheeee!)

Expecting: 5 (pretty much with ya on this one. Not very special, although Cordy had some good moments. I liked the Cordy trying to have a life angle ;o) )

She: 2 (again, pretty much agree. Probably the same reasons as you.)

I've Got You Under My Skin: 10 (This is a masterpiece. So genuinely frightening and so original. Chill-worthy)

The Prodigal: 8

The Ring: 7 (I liked this one. Not the best ever, but I loved the moral ambiguity that they were basically fighting to free a pack of demons on LA)

Eternity: 8 (I love this one, return of Angelus, and a cool concept...actress wants to be turned to stay young forever)

Five by Five: 10

Sanctuary: 10 (Need I say more for the above two than FAITH!)

War Zone: 6 (Again, pretty good intro to Gunn but eh..)

Blind Date: 8 (Lindsay!! Lilah!! W&H!!)

To Shanshu in LA: 10 (GREAT season finale, and, like cjl says, almost a new pilot for the next season. In many ways, it feels more like a Season 2 Angel ep than a first. Really sets the stage for some amazing KABOOMage.)

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> About my 'generous' scoring for 'She'.... -- cjl, 09:23:20 01/31/03 Fri

You have to understand that (for me, at least) every episode of ANGEL and BUFFY starts at a BASE LEVEL of "4." In other words, the characters and basic situation of both series are so well-developed that even if absolutely everything goes wrong, and none of the scenes work, the episode is going to get a "4" just making it on the air.

Giving "She" a 4.5 means, basically, that the entirely episode sucked except for one scene. Maybe. But I think Loey explained the problems with the ep better than I did:

"This was, frankly, a mess. I had to watch it twice before I figured out what the heck was going on, and even then, I didn't care much. Sure, there were a few interesting real-life issues paralleled here - refugees, female genital mutilation, "collateral damage" - but they were part of a story that didn't really hold together. After the Stepford Wives-meets-Rosemary's Baby scenario of "Expecting", we now get Stepford Wives-meets-The Handmaid's Tale. They need to either find something new or space these things out a little better."

"I was almost ready to give this one a 4, but it officially earns a full bonus point for the scenes of Angel and Wesley dancing. Trust me."

The dancing scenes WERE funny, so the ep gets bumped up half-a-notch to 4.5. Otherwise, a total loss. Could I ever conceivably give a Joss Whedon-created program LESS than a "4"? Only if: 1) the plot didn't work on any level ("She" in a nutshell); and 2) the episode destroyed the integrity of one of the main characters and the premise of the series. Fortunately, nothing like that has ever come close to happening--but if Cordelia acted in S1 the way she's been acting in S3/4, I might have stopped watching Angel altogether...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OK, that makes sense -- Tchaikovsky, 10:23:33 01/31/03 Fri

I can totally understand that. I was basing my ratings on the assumptions that I'd only be comparing them to other episodes of 'Angel' or 'Buffy'. Otherwise I'd certainly have to venture into negative numbers for most other shows.

TCH

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