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My thoughts on LDJ -- Tess, 18:11:06 01/23/03 Thu

I loved this Episode. The last few Angel's have left me on the edge of my seat whereas Buffy has been rather slow. Although I've yet to see Showtime since someone somewhere thought everyone here would rather see a ballgame.

I loved Angel resorting to his age-old security blanket -- brooding. And that his son shows signs of being a brooder also, just not quite as adept at it.

While I'm on the subject of Conner, it just struck me as odd seeing him reading a book considering the way he grew up. I've always imagined Holtz teaching Conner to read by scratching the alphabet into the dirt. Can't imagine there were too many books in Quortoth that were written in English. So is it feasible that someone who grew up not really reading would be comfortable enough with it to understand and enjoy a book the size he was reading?

Onto Cordy...I was so glad to see someone in the Fang Gang (Gunn) point out how weird she has become. Maybe a hint from ME that I'm not crazy thinking she's not quite herself. Also was good to see ME acknowledging Angel's curse if even in a off beat way with what Lorne said about Angel not knowing real happiness with Cordy.

Now Gwen...I like her. But even after only two shows, I'm already tired of her red/black leather tummy revealing outfits. Gwen seems like she's full of spice and not going to take flack from anyone, but underneath she's almost desperate for contact and not just of the physical type. I hope she returns in the future.

Any opinions out there on Gwen's choosing to partner with Gunn and leaving Cordy and Angel together? And anyone else wonder just what Angel and Gwen talked about on that eight hour trip?
[> Re: My thoughts on LDJ -- Arethusa, 18:31:01 01/23/03 Thu

While I'm on the subject of Conner, it just struck me as odd seeing him reading a book considering the way he grew up. I've always imagined Holtz teaching Conner to read by scratching the alphabet into the dirt. Can't imagine there were too many books in Quortoth that were written in English. So is it feasible that someone who grew up not really reading would be comfortable enough with it to understand and enjoy a book the size he was reading?

I noticed that too. I'll bet Holtz gave Connor a very basic but thorough education. Perhaps he made up a demon horn book and had Connor copy sentences with homemade slates or paper.

I like Gwen too, with some reservations. Perhaps the clothing thing is a nod to comic book characters who always wear the same crime fighting (or crime committing) outfits. I really enjoy the fact that Cordy feels so threatened by other women. I don't think she's ever had a real female friend-the closest she got was Harmony. She neve made friends with Fred, either. I think Cordy prefers to be around men, both in a romantic and friendship sense.
[> [> Re: My thoughts on LDJ -- yabyumpan, 01:52:58 01/24/03 Fri

"While I'm on the subject of Conner, it just struck me as odd seeing him reading a book considering the way he grew up. I've always imagined Holtz teaching Conner to read by scratching the alphabet into the dirt. Can't imagine there were too many books in Quortoth that were written in English. So is it feasible that someone who grew up not really reading would be comfortable enough with it to understand and enjoy a book the size he was reading?"

Maybe Holtz had a copy of the Bible in his pocket when jumped to Quortoth.
[> [> [> How funny, the same thing occurred to me. -- Arethusa, 04:42:14 01/24/03 Fri

Since Holtz traveled a lot, you could easily be correct. It's also possible that he memorized very large parts of it and rewrote it. The Bible was the only book many people had in those days.
[> Actually... -- Masq, 19:10:26 01/23/03 Thu

"Any opinions out there on Gwen's choosing to partner with Gunn and leaving Cordy and Angel together? And anyone else wonder just what Angel and Gwen
talked about on that eight hour trip?"

Gwen originally suggested that she team up with Angel to guard Manny, and Cordelia stopped her, suggesting that each of the "superheroes", Angel and Gwen, team up with a "mere human", Gunn and herself. There might have been some territoriality on Cordelia's part behind that logic, too.
[> Gwen and Angel -- tomfool, 19:34:40 01/23/03 Thu

"Any opinions out there on Gwen's choosing to partner with Gunn and leaving Cordy and Angel together?"

Remember that Gwen has the electro touch of death that pretty much negates the possibility of getting touchy close with a regular human. Gunn had a pretty fatal reaction the first time they got close. Angel on the other hand was energized and his heart went pitter pat when Gwen touched him.

Gwen told Angel that he's the only guy that's as big a freak as her. "Freak to freak . . ." I think Angel's the only potential partner for Gwen. Definitely an interesting dynamic with the Angel/Cordy/Gwen triangle. I don't think we've seen the end of the fireworks here.
[> [> Re: Gwen and Angel -- Tess, 21:00:04 01/23/03 Thu

That's funny. I hadn't even thought about the Gwen preferring Gunn to Angel. I was thinking about Gwen choosing to partner with Gunn and leaving Cordy alone with Angel. Especially as it would have been impossible for anyone not to notice exactly how much Angel was wanting to not be alone with Cordy.
[> Re: My thoughts on LDJ -- Purple Tulip, 21:18:29 01/23/03 Thu

I've said here before that I am not a regular Angel viewer, but last night I actully watched almost the whole thing and saw Gwen for the first time, and I have to say that she reminded me a lot of Faith---the leather and tight shirts, the long brown hair, the whole attitude. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it just struck me as an obvious similarity.
Xander does have one great ability that no one else has... (mild spoiler) -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 18:22:58 01/23/03 Thu

and that is the ability to walk away. At any time, he can just decide he has had enough, pack up his things, and move on. Unlike the others, he has found success in the civilian world of the Buffy/Angelverse, and could pretty much spend the rest of his life in safe, successful comfort. The other characters on this can't, because they fall into one of the following catagories:

1. Chosen Ones (Buffy, Faith, and Conner) As much as they would like to give it all up and live a normal life, this is not an option for them. They were given these amazing powers for a reason, and God/fate/PTB/whatever, isn't/aren't going to let them just sit on their butts and do nothing. They will be constantly drawn to events that only they can handle, and will do so until they die. They make take a few side jobs or interests, but they will always be slayers (okay, Conner isn't a slayer per se, but it is a pretty accurate description)

2. Tormented Demons (Angel and Spike): No longer human, and cursed with monsterous desires and memories, they can't have a normal life, since they aren't normal. They can't have 9 to 5 jobs, families or the white picket fences. In the end, they will be lucky if they can find redemption and peace of mind.

3. Touched by Greatness (Willow and Cordeila) Similar to Chosen Ones, except they were born human and had normal lives until power was given (Willow's aptitude for magic) or thrust (Doyle's kiss to Cordelia) onto them. Unile Chosen ones, they don't seem to be specifically destined for particular events (as Cordelia proves, Angel needs a seer, not a particular one), but they do have power, and like Spider-Man says, great power comes with great responsibily (i.e. using your powers to help people out) and so can't walk away from the Job.

4. Career Mystics/Warriors/ (Giles, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, and Anya) Basically these people have been living in this world for so long, they don't know how to do anything else. Gunn's been a warrior all his life and I can't see that changing; Wesley and Giles will always be Watchers (although maybe Watchmen is a more accurate description for them) not matter what; and Anya and Fred have been in strange bizarre worlds for so long, they can't fit into civilian life anymore (Anya is still in the occult world when she runs her own business, and Fred, though a scientist, prefers to be a demon hunter/investigator).

So basically, this all boils down to freedom. Xander has enough invested in both worlds to choose one or the other without any guilt trips. He has a skill and a life totally seperate from the demon world, and while he has heart, his place as a warrior isn't as necessary as the others. It may not seem like much, but for people like Buffy and Willow, the ability to lead a normal life like he can must seem like an amazing power on its own right.
[> I didn't see... -- M, 19:22:46 01/23/03 Thu

...Dawn on the list.
[> [> Damn, knew I forgot someone :( -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 19:56:26 01/23/03 Thu

Okay, where would Dawn go? Uh, that is a tough one; I suppose you could look at her as a reverse touched by greatness or chosen one, a great power transformed into something normal. Hmm, maybe I need to think of a new category.
[> Good point -- Sophist, 20:33:20 01/23/03 Thu

Though it cuts both ways: Xander doesn't have to stay, but chooses to do so. That's pretty noble in its own way.

By the same token, his statement to Dawn that (paraphrasing) "it's so much harder to be on the edge of the spotlight" is ridiculous in its mischaracterization of Buffy (at least). It's also either unjustifiably self-pitying in light of his decision to stay when he could walk away, or arrogantly self-congratulatory in making his role seem harder than Buffy's.
[> [> Re: Good point -- cjc36, 06:16:52 01/24/03 Fri

QUOTE BY SOPHIST: ....By the same token, his statement to Dawn that (paraphrasing) "it's so much harder to be on the edge of the spotlight" is ridiculous in its mischaracterization of Buffy (at least). It's also either unjustifiably self-pitying in light of his decision to stay when he could walk away, or arrogantly self-congratulatory in making his role seem harder than Buffy's. END QUOTE

It could if he were griping in general to someone else, but instead he was trying to lend support to someone new to the sidekick gig, after her first real personal defeat (ego-wise, at least). Other than that speech to Dawn, we never hear Xander complain. And he does have a point in that it could be difficult for someone with no obvious 'special' ability to cope with the empowered beings the Scoobies face on a regular basis.

That he saw what she was going through proves to me he's not overtly stuck on himself.
[> [> [> I agree that the context mitigates it. -- Sophist, 08:44:46 01/24/03 Fri

But this is hardly the first time Xander has made insulting comments about Buffy that are in no way necessary to his legitimate point. Buffy's tolerance of this is greater than mine; perhaps she puts up with it because she's it's so hard to find someone who does windows.
[> [> [> [> Courage in the cannon's mouth (spoilers for 'Potential'? not really, but...) -- Random, 15:29:48 01/24/03 Fri

The context mitigates it entirely, I would think. Xander has never been the self-congratulatory type (except in his own facetious way) and his speech was never a slam on Buffy or the potentials. I admit that I cringed just slightly at the undercurrent of backpatting initially, but I realized that we were listening to Xander here...a person who's seen his best friend die in the service of the world not once but twice, who's watched grow from someone he lusted after (and was lust after-able) to someone he admired (and was admirable) to someone who fell off her pedestal and climbed right back to her feet again. I find it difficult to believe that he was saying that life itself was harder for him and Dawn..."plus, if you act now, death." He knows how difficult things are for the chosen ones -- he's perfectly aware that they aren't being chosen to lead long, lucrative lives filled with happy romances and comfortable four-posters when they retire for the night. He may not always be fair to Buffy in his emotional moments, but he's never given us any reason to believe he doesn't appreciate the nature of her situation. Seven years...he's seen what the life of a Chosen one is like. He knows better than anyone except Willow and Giles what Buffy has gone through.

What he was offering Dawn was the Wisdom of the Zeppo(tm). He was telling her, plain and simple, that the courage (which he never claimed for himself, mind you) to cast off your disappointment at being ordinary, not-Chosen, and nevertheless give everything to the support of the cause was an extraordinary one. He was saying, and legitimately to some extent (as I said, I shared your doubts), that following the path of the Chosen ones without being Chosen yourself was harder than when you know you're special, Chosen. He "saw" Dawn -- he saw, a person capable of stepping aside for the sake of the war, a person who does what they can, when they can, and even when she tasted greatness, she understood that the greatness was in service of humanity, not her own ego...so she stepped aside. Xander doesn't envy Buffy or the potentials for their lives, or their lives to come. He merely notes that choosing to play on the field when everyone around you is larger, tougher, better at the game, requires a fortitude and courage that the naturally brilliant athletes (to carry the metaphor) will never quite understand. To know you're the least capable player on the team and still go out and give it your all...there's a peculiar honor in that form of courafe

Eh, I'm soft on the doof, I know. Buffy has the toughest life of them all (and she's my favorite anyway) but Xander and Dawn have it harder than her in that one regard: they must deal with the fact that they will always be second-string...and still forge on. I can't remember who said it, but there's an interestingly applicable quote: "Why do we honour those who fall on the fields of glory? A man may show as much courage looking into the abyss of himself." Or something like that. Xander and Dawn have looked at themselves and realized that they may not be "special" but that doesn't mean they won't stay on the field...because it is a battle worth fighting.
[> [> [> [> [> Very well said -- Sophist, 17:57:27 01/24/03 Fri

As are all your posts. But there are limits to how much I'm willing to buy.

I do agree that Xander himself has demonstrated great courage. I also agree that his speech to Dawn was meant well and praiseworthy in intent. I only object to his overstatement of the "ordinary" person. Not only does this have the self-serving aspects that he should have avoided, but it also involved the same subtle denigration of Buffy that he's used on several occasions previously. I want him to encourage Dawn. I just want him to do it for the right reasons.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Very well said -- Shambleau, 19:40:48 01/24/03 Fri

"I just want him to do it for the right reasons"

And I don't. Or not only for the right reasons. I want mixed motives. I want Xander's ego, self-justifications and subtle denigrations to be there in the speech, too. To me that's good character writing, because the negative aspects of Xander are part of what makes him Xander. Otherwise, you're headed toward Saint Cordelia territory.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree from one perspective -- Sophist, 06:12:13 01/25/03 Sat

You're quite right in the sense you say it. But it would take all the fun away if we couldn't judge the characters on the faults the writers have deliberately written in. No one said anything about critics having to be fair.....
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree -- cjc36, 01:48:44 01/27/03 Mon

Xander is human...he reacts to these events around him better than I would, and he still sticks around. As a former (and some would say current) nerd, I've felt what Xander felt getting the doughnuts for the 'heroes.' (Mine was HS theater, but still!) He was trying to be *there* for his friends "we'll figure it out together." (or something like) he said to B and W from his uncle's car in The Zeppo.

True, he's been shrill and downright rude to Buffy. But did she not, in some cases, deserve it? Dating vampires? Leaving her friends to fight alone? Lying about return of said vampire? Willow can't call her on it, it's not the nature of their friendship to be overtly critical. But Xander, through his original crush on her, can and does give Buffy a good reality check, the best when she was letting Riley go.

He has a real-world, everyday guy common sense about him. He is not perfect. No Scooby is.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Granted... -- Random, 21:13:06 01/24/03 Fri

...and I, too, want to see Xander do things for the right reasons. Xander's always been my weak spot and, while I appreciate the complexity of the character, I do sometimes cringe at his, well, let's just call them "less-than-sensitive" moments -- of which there've been quite a few. Makes him more interesting, which is a good thing, but, like all fictional characters we grow attached to, we sometimes like to see them at their best.

I'm tempted to say that the ambiguity here was merely a weakness in the writing, that the intent of the speech, from ME's perspective, was unambiguous. What I imagine would have improved the speech was leaving off the intensifier from "harder," which does lead to the comparison that makes his speech a little discomfiting. Perhaps simply choosing instead to merely stress that it was "hard" (a hermetic rather than comparitive description) would have helped avoid the problem and still gotten the same message across to Dawn. Then again, I dislike "re-writing" writers, especially ones who are probably better than me (who wrote this ep?) So I'm kinda torn between critiquing the writing and rationalizing the result.

Oh, and thanks for the kudos. Means a lot from a poster like you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree. And ditto on the thanks. -- Sophist, 11:14:21 01/25/03 Sat

[> Re: Xander does have one great ability that no one else has... (mild spoiler) -- Rufus, 04:36:39 01/24/03 Fri

So basically, this all boils down to freedom. Xander has enough invested in both worlds to choose one or the other without any guilt trips. He has a skill and a life totally seperate from the demon world, and while he has heart, his place as a warrior isn't as necessary as the others. It may not seem like much, but for people like Buffy and Willow, the ability to lead a normal life like he can must seem like an amazing power on its own right.

That is part of what being a hero is, devoting your life to something more than mere existing. Xander has been beat up, lost friends, and risks death all the time with no super power to at least help him out. He may not be a Superhero, but he is a hero...no cape needed.
[> [> Yes, Xander is a hero; I was just pointing out the option he possesses that no one else does -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 04:50:22 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Yes, Xander is a hero; I was just pointing out the option he possesses that no one else does -- Rufus, 04:59:59 01/24/03 Fri

I think at any time Buffy or Willow could walk away....they continually choose not to. It's easier given that they do have powers that make them harder to kill but they could just walk away...just like Xander could.
[> [> [> [> Walking away -- CW, 05:39:43 01/24/03 Fri

I think Faith's experience in "Who Are YOU?" proves it isn't easy to walk away, no matter how much you may want it, if the feelings are inside you. I'd say Xander can't walk away as long as either Willow or Buffy need him. That's what left him vulnerable to mental manipulation before his wedding. Besides his fear of turning out like his father, he couldn't commit completely to Anya because he is needed elsewhere.
[> Xander and The White Hats -- cjc36, 06:25:01 01/24/03 Fri

Leaving isn't really an option for Xander, either. He's 'seen too much.' Living a so-called normal life would become a lie to him very quickly.

The White Hats in The Wishverse: Larry, Oz and the woman who was killed (don't recall her name) fought because vampires had overrun their world - much like regular folks going to war with street gangs in their neighborhood. I see Xander as this type of person. And he is special for it. How many other people know - who have been saved by Buffy - and rationalized it all away. Xander didn't. And if you think he stayed because of his crush on Buffy...that was over after she rejected him in Prophesy Girl.

My read on Xander is that he can't quit because of his knowledge of the real world, and the guilt the act of quitting would cause him would be hard to bear.
[> Re: Xander does have one great ability that no one else has... (mild spoiler) -- WickedBuffy, 17:00:15 01/26/03 Sun

Well, when Xander and Anya were all hot and heavy with each other, Anya seemed to think Xander had several *great* abilities no one else had. At least she would always allude to it back then. And it appears that Anyanka had quite alot of experience under her belt to be able to judge.

Then again, it's all subjective. Like, who has more power Willow or Ra-tet or who is more evil Spike or Angelus.

Still - I think it's still one of Xanders greatest abilities since no one else on the show ever got as many compliments from their "special" friends as Xander got from Anya.

I'm just not clear on how that's going to help fight The First, though. Or balance out the world. ;>
Is Willow even more powerful than the Ra-tet on Angel? -- Angel123, 18:28:31 01/23/03 Thu

In this episode they are considered beings of Supreme beings of power. Willow is considered the most powerful wicca in the western hemidsphere. Also I read in tv guide she is a written to be Buffy's sorceress sidekick instead being called a witch.
[> Re: Is Willow even more powerful than the Ra-tet on Angel? -- AgnosticSorcerer, 19:28:35 01/23/03 Thu

Each member of the Ra-Tet had their own level of power and the most powerful, I surmised, was the little girl (Mes-et-???). The Little Girl or Tiffany (via Fred) seemed to have a lot of mojo going on just in both the references made to her, the power she did display, and her associations. The Ra-Tet were supposed to be the totems of the Kemetic god Ra and as such I would assume their power comes from him whereas Willow's powers, I believe, are directly the result of Willow--her own Will. Though Willow is a force to be reckoned with in her non-tampered and self-confident state, I don't think her power compares to that of the Ra-Tet's.

I think an appopriate analogy would be that of electrical equipment. Willow's power comes from herself in that respect making her much akin to a battery-operated machine wereas the Ra-Tet derive their powers from Ra making them analogous to a device that is plugged into the wall.

Willow might be the most powerful battery-operated being in the Western hemisphere, but the nature of the powers of the Ra-Tet do not compare.
[> [> References to LDJ with spoiler possibilities above!!!!!!!!!!!! -- AgnosticSorcerer, 19:35:56 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Is Willow even more powerful than the Ra-tet on Angel? -- Tess, 21:54:44 01/23/03 Thu

Other than the little girl, I was unimpressed with the power of the Ra-tet. And actually my high regards for her come more from her previous appearance than from LDJ. Conner put up more of fight than we saw any of them doing (and that was a cool kick off the pole. Looked like a running 540 jump spin crescent kick). Heck even Cordy managed to crawl away from the beast before it decided to allow her to live. The ra-tet seemed to say here we are, have at us, we won't lift a finger in even a marginal protest to try and stop you. Of course, the only one we actually saw die onscreen was Gwen's and he was attacked from behind.

Given the brief moment of pain Willow was able to cause Glory, I would guess if willing to go even half out, Willow could give the beast more to worry about than the Fang Gang has as of yet.

For that matter, is the beast allowing the entire AI gang to live because of some as of yet to be revealed reason or just because ME doesn't want to kill a main character? Other than Conner, Angel and Cordy what purpose could the beast have in letting any of them live?
[> [> [> About the little girl. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:15:59 01/25/03 Sat

Even weakened and drained of energy, she was able to teleport Angel and Co. out of the White Room and back to the Hyperion Hotel. Why couldn't she use some of that mojo on the Beast? Perhaps he's immune to magic. It's not impossible; we know the demon Gnarl was, and he wasn't near the level of mystical power that the Beast has.

As for the others, we don't know how the battle between the Beast and the shaman or the little girl's saber-toothed kitty cat went. Then there's Gwen's employer, who was killed from behind. Even if he was powerful enough to kill the Beast with a word (though I doubt he could have done it) he didn't have the chance to do it.

And Manny, well, they made a special point that Manny's only powers were immortality and being annoying.
[> [> Willow's power and AtS -- manwitch, 07:29:12 01/24/03 Fri

I think Willow is a conduit, more than battery operated. The power isn't willow herself. Her claim that "I am the power" in CWDP I think will turn out to be as mistaken as Buffy's belief that she is the power.

The power pretty clearly comes from somewhere and Willow taps it and uses it and channels it. Remember Becoming?

That said, my biggest problem with the whole Angel series is my inability to let it go and have its own legs from Buffy. I always remember that several of these characters know Buffy, and all of them have met Willow or know Willow personally. So if you're one of these brooding fools on Angel and you're facing what you really think is an Apocalypse, do you really want to run out the door and fight it yourself? Is that what is best for the world? Or do you get on the phone, the telephone, that you have right there in your room, and call the chick that is 6-0 in Apocalypses, including one where she kicked Angel's ass back to hell. Angel's only like, 4-1 at best, an apocalypse and a half behind. No, of course if they really thought the world was in trouble, they would call the master of world saving in as their ally and her awesomely powerful sorcerer sidekick who woulda dispatched Mr Demon like he was a raccoon on their second encounter.

I like Angel, and I find it entertaining and all, but I always find myself saying, "They'd call Buffy if that happened. Why not get Buffy. Call Giles, he knows the answer to that and has better resources at his disposal than Wesley. They need magic? Why don't they get Willow. She can do it on her head. Why don't they call Buffy?"

I just find it difficult to get past the notion that a bunch of second tier champions wouldn't call THE CHAMPION if they really thought the world was at stake, especially since they do all know her reasonably well. Its not like they would just be fans asking for an autograph. I am just put off a little by the Fang Gangs callous disregard for my safety, that they think these deals should be closed by associates rather than the executive team, that they are willing to risk MY WELFARE so that they can prove some point to themselves about their own worthiness. For your average LA monsters, that's great. But when you get to Apocalypse, you call the Apocalypse People, and they are on Buffy, not Angel. If Cordelia really remembers everything Angel ever did, she knows that. Because one of the things he did was get spanked and sent to hell by Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and another thing he did was live off of a willing Buffy's blood. Angel means well, but he's never gonna get the number one ranking.

Anyways, my point is that I think Willows a powerful witch.
[> [> [> Great post -- Sophist, 07:33:44 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Willow's power and AtS -- holdemfoldem, 09:02:06 01/24/03 Fri

Ah yes, Willow.

When I consider:

1) The pain she inflicted on Glory,

2) The fact that they have set up The Beast to be essentially about the same in strength, toughness, and overall invulnerability as Gory,

I think that Willow NOW, having so much experience under her belt, would basically be able to kick The Beast's arse like it was jello puddin'!!!

All she really needs at this point is confidence, and the recent episodes of Buffy indicate that she is regaining that, and her abilities, at a very quick rate. I'm pretty sure she assited in Buffy's defeat of the Uber Vamp, both through a specially adapted, draining, force field, and during Buffy's actual battle with Ubie. It was almost like she KNEW that Buffy was going to win, even when it looked like Buffy was about to die in Ubie's classic death grip.

Although due credit is due the Buffster for standing toe to toe with that thing and taking it down, it seemed somewhat like the ol' Will fix was in! Who knows, Willow may have even helped buffy in general to have more power against agents which FE calls forth in the future!

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!
[> [> [> You GO, manwitch!! AMEN to every last character in your post! -- yez, 11:39:21 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Willow's power and AtS -- AgnosticSorcerer, 18:28:22 01/24/03 Fri

"I think Willow is a conduit, more than battery operated. The power isn't willow herself. Her claim that "I am the power" in CWDP I think will turn out to be as mistaken as Buffy's belief that she is the power.

The power pretty clearly comes from somewhere and Willow taps it and uses it and channels it. Remember Becoming?"

-- I still think that the power comes from Willow herself and that is why the power within her was so easily corrupted because it originated within herself. Her magics was (and possibily still is) a product of her own inner desires and Will and while this is hardly a negative thing in the Realverse--it may be a negative depiction of magic in the Buffyverse. The beginning of this season showed Willow learning not to draw energy from within herself, but rather, to draw it from the Earth--the very forces of life itself. This type of magic seems to be more favored in the Buffyverse (regardless of my displeasure).

But I completely agree with the rest of your post. I have often yelled at AI, "CALL BUFFY! CALL WILLOW!"
[> [> [> [> Re: Willow's power and AtS -- Malandanza, 07:14:40 01/25/03 Sat

"-- I still think that the power comes from Willow herself and that is why the power within her was so easily corrupted because it originated within herself"


I think both cases apply -- Willow is able to store a limited amount of energy in herself like a battery, but for really big spells, or after she's exhausted her personal supply of magic, she needs to tap into some other source of power. The best example I can think of is her girl's night out with Amy where she ended up totally drained of magic -- she couldn't even close the curtains of her room magically the next day, which led to her getting resupplied by Rack. We also heard Jonathan talk about how her magic was draining away when she used her power to drag a semi down the road after Buffy and co.

On the other hand, for Willow's biggest spells, the ones in the past (pre season 6) when we've seen her eyes go black, she has been connecting to some big, evil source of magic and channeling that power through herself. I think Willow was corrupted by the channeling -- it was the price she paid for easy access to the power. The coven taught her to draw magic from the Earth, as you point out -- she is no longer fueling her spells with power of dubious origin, so less risk of corruption -- the problem is that dark forces still have access to her even though she's given up the dark magic -- we saw that with her temporary insanity after she drove off the spider demon and again when the First co-opted her attempt at magic this season.

As for not calling Willow when they get in trouble, does AI even know how powerful Willow became? Angel left in Season Three -- Willow wasn't battling gods back then.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Willow's power and AtS -- manwitch, 14:23:29 01/25/03 Sat

"As for not calling Willow when they get in trouble, does AI even know how powerful Willow became? Angel left in Season Three -- Willow wasn't battling gods
back then."

Sure. They know Buffy's alive again. Willow seems to keep the phone lines open with them.

But I recognize that the issue is mine, not Angel's. He doesn't have to call who he doesn't want to.
[> [> [> [> I agree with AS. Mixed messages abound in Jossverse for a man who shows such theological broadness. -- Briar Rose, 17:51:30 01/25/03 Sat

[> [> [> LOL I've always wondered the exact same thing??or things depending on, oh nevermind) -- darrenK, 05:35:15 01/25/03 Sat

[> Willow's got a few issues.. -- ZachsMind, 19:45:00 01/23/03 Thu

I'd have to hunt through the transcripts but I think the person who claimed Willow is the most powerful in the western hemisphere was Andrew. I don't recall the coven actually saying anything like that. Certainly, during the last few episodes of season six Dark Willow was strong enough to almost destroy the world. However, that was short lived.

Willow's got some issues. There's a reason why there are elaborate rituals performed in order to accomplish magic by others. It's like using a keyboard to access the information on a computer. Willow cuts corners and simplifies the rituals, sometimes skipping them altogether once she thinks she gets it. She's proven the rituals aren't quite necessary to accomplish some things, but it's like punching your hand through the monitor in order to get to that same info on the computer. You're gonna get electrocuted and things aren't going to work right.

Every time she accesses magic so directly, Willow takes a great risk. She has the potential to be the most powerful magic user on the planet, but while more intelligent sorcerors only snort magic occasionally, Willow dives into it like it's just water, and then acts surprised when she gets screwed. She's not very protected from the energies she's abusing. They abuse back.

There was a point last season when Riley's wife explained to Willow that she knew two big time shaman types who were very powerful, and the magicks took them out. They just burned out. Let's face it. The only reason Willow hasn't burned out like that by now is because Alyson Hannigan has a contract, and Whedon likes keeping her around. =)
[> [> Anya claimed Willow was the most powerful wicca in the Western Hemisphere in Two to Go -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 20:01:31 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> [> Not sure if Anya's much better of a source than Andrew... -- ZachsMind, 17:45:42 01/24/03 Fri

She's not only NOT a demon any longer, but most of her knowledge is rather dated. She's great when it comes to describing an ascension, or explaining how Santa Claus used to eat children, but has she actually met all the greatest witches in the western hemisphere?

Now if GILES said the Coven admitted Willow's that powerful, that would be one thing. I haven't seen that. Willow has the potential to be powerful, but she's grabbing onto the power conduits without any insulation. She's gonna burn out.
[> [> [> [> True but... -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 05:42:15 01/25/03 Sat

Anya was a demon again when she made that statement, and she has only spent the last 4 years (?) as a human, meaning that unless someone amazing came along in those last few years, her intel wasn't that dated.

However, your right that Giles would have been a better source of information on this subject. Anya could have very well been exagerating Willow's power in order to stress how serious the situation was.
[> [> Yup in Two to Go, it was Anya -- Rufus, 20:06:30 01/23/03 Thu

From psyche's transcripts

ANYA: (annoyed) Warren shot Buffy. Warren shot Tara. Buffy's alive. Tara's dead. Willow found out, and being the most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere, decided to get the payback. With interest.
[> [> A few unfounded assumptions there Zachs -- Dochawk, 20:53:09 01/23/03 Thu

You have evidence that Willow is cutting corners in season 7? Or not doing all the rituals properly? Anya made a crack about a spell not working but that had to do with the last time she did one at that table the FE entered her. I think you've gone a little overboard on the Willowabuse without some documentation.
[> [> [> Re: screens and data -- pr10n <-- raises small and squeaky hand, 20:59:25 01/23/03 Thu

Item: Willow did plunge her hands into a computer to get data, but she was on the highway to evil already.

Granted it was a Macintosh so the interface was better, but... Oh sorry.
[> [> [> [> Re: screens and data -- Dochawk, 21:08:44 01/23/03 Thu

She started to use magic with the computer screen in Gone in season 6, but I was specifically asking about season 7, post-dark Willow.
[> [> [> [> [> The Power of the Witch.... -- Briar Rose, 00:45:58 01/24/03 Fri

Regardless of what ME (and many other writers) want to portray, Magick does not REQUIRE ritual in the real world. Magick is done every time a focused blast of energy is directed with intent and belief by anyone.

Ritual is used to promote focus above all else! Yes, there are Earth religions that use "sympathetic" herbs and stones and such - but the actual magick is pure emotion and energy focused on a specific intent. It takes mental discipline and belief in yourself and what you are doing - other than that nothing else is required.

So to say that Willow is cutting corners is only in ME's sense of the situation and the way they are putting it forth to viewers who may not be active in the occult practices they are being shown.

Actually, what Willow did in Grave and Two to Go is common, except for the actual actions she caused to occur, most witches don't suck books and computer screens and words flow up their arms.... that obviously was movie magick because the real deal is B O R I N G and doesn;t look good on camera.*L

But the idea of overwhelming emotion being all that was needed? That is true. Magick is used by the most experienced and empowered Witches in precisely that way - no ritual needed.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Power of the Witch.... (examples?) -- frisby, 02:52:43 01/24/03 Fri

Very interesting! Might a wedding be a good example? Or even a graduation ceremony?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly, frisby! Or... -- Briar Rose, 15:43:11 01/24/03 Fri

Holy Communion, Bar/Bat Mitzva [sorry, can't remember spelling], and The Holy Rites of any religions' passage phases; birth, death, marriage...

"Spells" or energy work that don't require ritual include, something like this very real world situation that anyone can do whether they are a "witch" or not:

You are driving on your way to a very important destination and so focused on getting there that you block out all else. It is imperative that you not be stopped. Every light changes from red to green JUST as it would slow you down. Even to the point where you realize that it must have "shifted timer" because it's in a blink that it changes from red to green just as you need it to.*S*

This is also done for the negative by people, also not necessarily by those whom designate themselves as "Witch":

someone takes an immediate dislike to you and whenever you are in their presence you can do no right! You get clumsy, have difficulty communicating, maybe even get phsyically ill or just feel like crying and hiding. It's them concentrating "energy" towards you in such a focused and directed way that you are affected by it.

No ritual is needed at all in those cases. It's pure emotion and focus causing effects outside of the person doing the energy work.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> My response to this disappeared? -- frisby, 08:14:48 01/27/03 Mon

My response to this disappeared. Oh well. The gist was that the true power of concentrated thought is itself magic. Hmmm. Maybe it just wasn't meant to be -- or a glitch? I do wonder what happened to it.

I'm having trouble getting this one through too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Power of the Witch.... -- AgnosticSorcerer, 16:18:07 01/25/03 Sat

"But the idea of overwhelming emotion being all that was needed? That is true. Magick is used by the most experienced and empowered Witches in precisely that way - no ritual needed."

I agree, but there is one detail that I feel the need to mention. There are very few people who can accomplish magics without the use of ritual. It is simply a feat in my mind which requires so much power that he or she would be quite the magical badass and I would hold that individual who claims to be able to do so with great skepticism.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> However, Willow IS a magical badass, and the Buffyverse is no place for skepticism -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:42:24 01/25/03 Sat

[> [> [> cutting corners -- manwitch, 07:04:35 01/24/03 Fri

Willow freezes bug man in Selfless, I think its called. She does it in the blink of an eye, no ritual, no latin, just black eyeballs and a hostile gesture.

Every indication is that she never lost the mojo she appropriated in Season 6. She's just in general attempting not to use it.

Whether or not its cutting corners, I don't know. She's earned her place in the magic world. I felt the cutting corners aspect of Season 6 had more to do with the idea of wanting the world to be a particular way, but not wanting to do the work or pay the price to get it there. Willow seems past that now. But who knows?
[> [> [> [> cutting corners - oh yes she did -- Helen, 07:14:54 01/24/03 Fri

I think the way Willow "cut the corners" in every part of her life is bourne out by Tara's comment in Tabula Rasa:

"If you don't want to fight, then you don't fight. You DON'T use magic to make a fight disappear."

Willow couldn't even be bothered to dry her hair, put her clothes on, close the curtains, log onto the net (actually i wish I could speed it up that way!). She used magic, inappropriately, to do all these things. I do believe it was inappropriate, because Tara thought so, and for me Tara was always the moral voice of the show.
[> [> [> [> [> No she didn't. -- Sophist, 07:31:06 01/24/03 Fri

Nyah, nyah, nyah.

Seriously, Tara's comment was true in TR, and of the Willow as portrayed in about Flooded-Wrecked, but not at all true of her before or after. It's fair to say that Willow went through a phase of cutting corners through magic in early S6, but not that it has been a consistent part of her character from the beginning.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No she didn't. -- Malandanza, 16:55:02 01/24/03 Fri

I have to agree with Helen -- Willow is Little Miss Shortcut and has been since we first met her. As far as magic is concerned, she only really began to gain proficiency in Season Three, but prior to that, our favorite redhead was quite the hacker -- a skill she developed before she ever met Giles and Buffy. Hacking, it seems to me, is all about shortcuts -- you want information but can't be bothered to spend time looking for it honestly. Hack into the right computer and you have all that information without all that tedious clicking and searching.

In Season Three, we see Willow take a relationship shortcut -- why deal with runaway hormones when she can just wish away her lust for Xander? Later that season, she tries to use a non-magical shortcut, offering herself to Oz, to repair the damage done to their relationship after her unfaithfulness (under trying conditions).

Then Something Blue -- a shortcut to avoid loss. Even the tinkered tinkerbell spell was a shortcut -- why use flashlights? They're heavy and awkward and only illuminate what you point them at.

Triangle in Season Five -- a shortcut to kill vamps -- the ball of sunshine spell. Which she attempted only after Giles left town -- why? If she had asked to try it while he was there, there would have been tedious and ominous warnings about the danger in tampering with natural (and supernatural) forces -- permission would have most likely not been forthcoming. Better to take a shortcut -- do the spell and hope it works and get permission after the fact (or forgiveness if it goes wrong).

All through Season Six, of course, we see Willow either taking shortcuts (when she's using magic) or whining about how slow things are (chemistry and the Internet) when she's not using magic.

As for her approach to magic, I think that she proved she didn't have the magical background she ought to have had -- that she had taken the shortcut to magic, by skimping on the research, the rationale, the need for balance (that Tara always stressed) when she "helped" Dawn raise Joyce from the dead by nudging a book in her path. Tara's alarm and Willow's guilty response demonstrated adequately, I think, that Willow has a little too much engineer in her and not enough theoretician -- a problem corrected to a large extent by her trip to England.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nope. -- Sophist, 17:42:28 01/24/03 Fri

The issue as posed was "shortcuts by magic", so I'm going to leave the hacker argument alone for now. It is doubly wrong in any case, as I've pointed out in posts before.

The issue appears to confuse some people because magic is, in one sense, always a "shortcut". It allows someone to do something which in the real world would be impossible or done only with great difficulty. For example, Tara used magic to release the bonds of the SG in the basement in NA. She could have done that without magic, but the situation required magic. Such uses of magic are not and should not be subject to criticism as "shortcuts".

The real issue raised in Helen's original post is whether Willow now uses magic as a "shortcut". As manwitch points out, there is no evidence for that at all.

Her behavior prior to S6 is irrelevant to the original point, but has been asserted as "support" for her non-existent use of shortcuts now. Since she is not now using shortcuts, the claim can't serve that purpose.

In any case, the claim about previous seasons isn't supported by much evidence. The only legitimate example from before S6 is SB. The rest you cite are clearly wrong:

1. She never did the de-lusting spell in Lover's Walk, so there was no shortcut.

2. The tinkerbell spell is different from a flashlight since it guides the user to someone else. It certainly was proper in Bargaining, and would have been in Fear Itself if the fear demon hadn't subverted it.

3. The sunshine spell, again, was never actually done. The intent was not to create a shortcut except in the "magic is always a shortcut" sense mentioned above. Her failure to obtain "permission" had nothing to do with the actual performance of the spell, but merely with the use of magic shop ingredients without (perhaps) paying for them. Failing to pay may have been wrong (or Giles might well have approved -- we'll never know because of Anya's interference), but it doesn't qualify as a "shortcut".

4. The reference to S6 is irrelevant since there is no doubt that she used magic as a shortcut during Flooded-Wrecked. Thereafter, she didn't use magic at all until Villains, and "griping" hardly constitutes actual use of shortcuts.

Willow's magic use before Flooded was both essential to the SG and successful on the vast majority of occasions. Criticism of her magic use from Flooded-Wrecked and Villains-Grave is justified. Any other criticism is mystifying.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope. -- Shambleau, 20:13:18 01/24/03 Fri

Saying that Willow never did the de-lusting spell, so there was no short-cut, is not a rebuttal. If she intended to do it, it's irrelevant whether she did it or not. It's still representative of her character. Xander interrupted her, she didn't decide not to do it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes and no -- Sophist, 20:57:52 01/24/03 Fri

Again, the actual claim was that Willow was currently using magic as a shortcut. There being no evidence of this, the attempt was made to argue that in the past she did so. My response is fair within the boundaries of the actual claim.

OTOH, you are right that she intended to use the spell. I'll certainly agree that her intent to use magic there was wrong. I'm not sure it's a shortcut in the true sense, but I'll concede it for the moment.

That means that of the 103 episodes prior to Flooded, we have 1 instance of Willow using magic as a shortcut (SB) and 1 where she intended to but didn't (Lover's Walk). If that's the case against her prior to S6 -- and remember, that case is itself an ancillary and logically inadequate response to the real point -- I'd politely call it weak.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Soph - I agree -- Dochawk, 21:16:27 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope. -- Malandanza, 23:49:40 01/24/03 Fri

Helen: I think the way Willow "cut the corners" in every part of her life is bourne out by Tara's comment in Tabula Rasa:

Sophist: The real issue raised in Helen's original post is whether Willow now uses magic as a "shortcut". As manwitch points out, there is no evidence for that at all.

I suppose we'll have to wait for Helen to clarify what she meant, but it doesn't seem to me that her statement referred solely to current season magic use. If that's what she meant, then I agree that there is no real debate here -- Willow is no longer looking for magical shortcuts -- thanks to her training with the Coven.

However, I believe she was speaking of pre-Season Seven behavior and when she said "every part of her life" she was speaking somewhat more expansively than you suggest. I also believe that looking at Willow's behavior outside of magic helps establish a pattern -- it's not that she uses magic for shortcuts or finds shortcuts in her magical studies so much as she looks for shortcuts everywhere in her life, so the magic is no different -- hence the non-magical references where I sought to establish a pattern.

When I mentioned the tinkered tinkerbell spell, I wasn't actually referring to the Fear, Itself incident (which was the non-tinkered tinkerbell spell) but this time from Out of My Mind (actually from early season five, so sorry for the confusion):

They move now, down the bright hallway, glancing into rubbled rooms on either side.
TARA: How'd you do that? With the light?

WILLOW: You know. You taught me.

TARA: I taught you teeny Tinkerbell light.

WILLOW: Oh yeah, I tinkered with the Tinkerbell. It was easy. And isn't this better than using a flashlight like some kind of doofus?

The griping in S6 shows why Willow turned to magically enhanced surfing in the first place -- too slow to do it the normal way. She wanted a shortcut.


Looking back at Season Three, here's Willow at the end of Dead Man's Party:

WILLOW: I mean I'm not like a full fledged witch, that takes years. I just did a couple of pagan blessings and teeny glamour to hide a zit.


And yet, two years later, she tangling with a god, and a year after that, trying to destroy the world. You don't go from hiding a zit to world destroyer in three years without taking shortcuts -- she skipped all that stuff that Tara knew and that the Coven taught her. She understands now that she has much to learn and realizes the truth of Giles' proclamation that she was a "Rank Amateur" and other people could raise the dead but she "wouldn't want to meet them." Willow's shortcut approach to magic nearly cost her her life -- and did cost Warren his. Had she spent years studying magic from a respectful distance instead of just plunging in and using it when it was convenient, she wouldn't have been in the mess she was in S6.

"Willow's magic use before Flooded was both essential to the SG and successful on the vast majority of occasions. Criticism of her magic use from Flooded-Wrecked and Villains-Grave is justified. Any other criticism is mystifying."

In Fear, Itself, both Buffy and Oz (two of the people who know her best) criticized her use of magic, as did Tara in Season Five, which led to their memorable fight. Giles has also, from time to time in the early seasons, expressed concern about her magical progress. The people who knew Willow best criticized her magic use in Seasons three to five -- mystifying indeed.

And yet, I cannot help but wonder if Oz, Buffy, Tara and Giles were correct in criticizing Willow, especially with hindsight. Willow's abortive attacks on Oz and Veruca and again on Glory (where she had to be rescued by Buffy and ended up leading Glory to the key) prefigure her attack on Warren, and I find myself wondering if criticism of Willow's magic use is as mystifying as you suggest.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Corners -- Sophist, 11:01:58 01/25/03 Sat

You're right about Helen. The comment I was thinking about was in ZM's post which started this sub-thread:

Willow's got some issues. There's a reason why there are elaborate rituals performed in order to accomplish magic by others. It's like using a keyboard to access the information on a computer. Willow cuts corners and simplifies the rituals, sometimes skipping them altogether once she thinks she gets it.

Manwitch (rightly) questioned this assertion as it applies now, and I take Helen's post as supporting ZM. My point was that Helen is correct for S6, but only for S6 (and, indeed, only for the period from Flooded-Wrecked).

I also believe that looking at Willow's behavior outside of magic helps establish a pattern -- it's not that she uses magic for shortcuts or finds shortcuts in her magical studies so much as she looks for shortcuts everywhere in her life, so the magic is no different -- hence the non-magical references where I sought to establish a pattern.

In that case, I'll explain again why her hacking deeds don't qualify.

The first step is to define the term "shortcut" carefully so that we don't pull in every use of magic as I mentioned in my post above. (For that matter, virtually all technology use constitutes a "shortcut" in the broad sense of the term.)

The judgment of "shortcut" is a moral one. It's used to denote someone who is morally obligated to accomplish a task one way, but instead does it in a different (easier) way.

Willow's hacking doesn't fit for 2 reasons. One is that JW expressly states on the S2 commentaries that they used the computer as a plot device to find essential information that couldn't otherwise be developed. Because it's a plot device, it's unfair to assess blame for it -- that would be like blaming Giles for being boring because of his lengthy expositions in the library (also a plot device).

The other is that Willow used the hacking to obtain information essential to the SG, usually under circumstances where that information was not otherwise available. For example, she used it to try to discover information about the Mayor in S3. True, Buffy could have tried to find the Mayor's files by breaking and entering (and later did so), but this makes my point -- Willow's hacking was no more morally wrong than Buffy's breaking and entering. Neither one was required to file a Freedom of Information Act request in order to avoid criticism.

There is no evidence that Willow used her hacking skills for wrongful purposes. She didn't, say, cheat on her homework. Every bit of evidence we have suggests that Willow diligently carried out all her duties -- indeed, that she was over-scrupulous about it (FH&T, Doppelgangerland). The claim that she regularly took "shortcuts" is inconsistent with this fundamental aspect of her character as established from the very beginning of the show.

When I mentioned the tinkered tinkerbell spell, I wasn't actually referring to the Fear, Itself incident (which was the non-tinkered tinkerbell spell) but this time from Out of My Mind

I agree that is using the spell as merely a flashlight in that episode. However, I don't think she violated any moral obligation here. They were in a dark place and neither she nor Tara had a flashlight. I suppose they could have left and come back later, but that hardly seems reasonable. One could wonder, however, why the SG members don't all carry flashlights (and cell phones, and, well, lots of other handy things).

You don't go from hiding a zit to world destroyer in three years without taking shortcuts

This is merely an assumption on your part. Since the show has never explained magic satisfactorily, I don't see why she couldn't have done just that. After all, Buffy went from normal girl to super powers in one day. If it's a matter of natural talent, rather than hard work, anything is possible. Even if hard work were necessary, we simply don't know how much (or how little) Willow put in.

In Fear, Itself, both Buffy and Oz (two of the people who know her best) criticized her use of magic, as did Tara in Season Five, which led to their memorable fight.

Footnote: Fear Itself is S4, not S3.

Buffy didn't criticize Willow's magic use in Fear Itself except when they were under the thrall of the fear demon. Those scenes reflected Willow's fears, not Buffy's actual comments. Otherwise we'd have to say that Buffy actually ignored Xander instead of that being simply Xander's fear.

In any case, these criticisms had to do with the use of magic in general, but they had nothing to do with our current topic of shortcuts. Criticism of her actual use, regardless of the source of that criticism, carries with it the faint whiff of hypocrisy -- no one was objecting when Willow's spells repeatedly saved the lives of the SG.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Fear, Itself -- Philistine, 12:19:44 01/25/03 Sat

It's been a while since I last saw FI, but IIRC Buffy expressed reservations about the pace of Willow's magical progress very early in the episode: in the cafeteria as the two of them were picking out their lunch, well before the fear demon was invoked. Willow's response, that she was looking for sympathy and encouragement and not more warnings, evaded the issue (which was then dropped).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Here's the dialogue from Psyche -- Sophist, 13:37:46 01/25/03 Sat

Willow: "I've got the basics down - levitation, charms, glamours. I just feel like I've plateaued wicca-wise."
Buffy: "What's the next level?"
Willow: "Transmutation, conjuring, bringing forth something from nothing. Gets pretty close to the primal forces. A little scary."
Buffy: "Well, no one's pushing. You know, if it's too much don't do it."
Willow: "Don't do it? What kind of encouragement is *that*?"
Buffy: "This is an 'encouragement' talk? I thought it was 'share my pain'."

Given Buffy's misunderstanding, I don't think we can tell what her actual attitude was.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sophist, you are making for fun reading -- manwitch, 15:06:50 01/25/03 Sat

From my perspective, there seems to be confusion between what I would call "having direct access to the spiritual world" and what others seem to be calling "short-cuts." For me they are not the same.

I have no problem with any of Willow's behavior, magical or otherwise, when she is addressing the issue at hand. When she is not doing so, when she is lying or deceiving herself, then I perceive her as making a mistake. I can see why it would be considered cutting corners, and I may have even called it that myself sometimes. But the corner she wants to cut is having to go through the pain of living in the world as Willow. This is the pain of SB, the pain of TR, the pain of Grave. All of her "unfortuante" uses of magic come from this desire to avoid the pain of life. This she has emphatically overcome by Season Seven. Might she still have magic related issues? Sure. But they will not have the same meaning that they did before. Her relationship to magic, in terms of meaning, is absolutely different from what it was prior to this season.

I agree with your arguments about criticism of Willows magic outside of the obvious wackymagic episodes. The main thing to remember is that Willow, in doing magic prior to season 6, is not simply looking for self aggrandizement. She is also looking to help Buffy, to help the world. And in Becoming its clear that she recognizes she is making a dangerous sacrifice, but knows that its the right thing to do. That everyone including Giles allows it, suggests that they agree.

Buffy has thought about whumping relatively innocent people before. We recognize her as being human and realize that she ultimately does the right thing, refusing to use her powers to settle "personal" scores. Aside from a few moments of extreme pain, Willow has been generally comparable.

And I think she has worked for it. I think she is clearly a brilliant and dedicated mind, and we have certainly seen her visit Tara for the purpose of practicing, rather than taking a short cut. We have seen her working on spells over time, like her ball of sunshine. But I don't think that being a quick study means taking short cuts. If anything, its the long way round, to do it without structure and guidance.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree. And thank you for a very meaningful compliment. -- Sophist, 20:05:55 01/25/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Generally agree, some things I've spotted (Spoilers to 7.12) -- shadowkat, 21:00:41 01/25/03 Sat

Willow is a fascinating character and how the writers use her exploration/experimentation of her use of magic has always fascinated me, even the drug addiction metaphor.
What also fascinates me about Willow is how divided people are over her - she's a bit like Spike in this way - people either seem to hate her or love her? I'm in the "love her camp". (The only characters I dislike right now on Btvs are the peripheral ones). ;-) That said - what I love most about Willow is her little idiosyncrasies and problems.

While I agree that most of this year she has largely used magic in a responsible fashion there are a few interesting tid-bits which are both similar to her mistakes with it in the past and different - in a way her use this year is a metanarration on her uses in past seasons. (Methinks I may be using metanarration way too often in Buffy posts - I blame OM for giving me this term ;-) )

Here's what I've found interesting:

1. Her conversation with Giles in Lessons in which she wants to either be punished or have the magic removed from her, but he insists it's part of her and she realizes that the magic inside her is connected with both the positive and negative forces of the earth. The earth isn't all good, it has teeth she notes. And the flower she is raising and causing to bloom, Giles notes doesn't belong in England, it belongs in Paraquay. Interesting metaphor - Willow doesn't belong in England, even though she fears leaving (so in some ways the flower is representative of her), the flower also represents her use of magic during the seasons - bringing forth something that doesn't belong and may set everything else out of wack but for the best of intentions. Or it may set everything right. The whole cursing Angelus with a soul in Becoming is an excellent example of this grey use of magic.

2. Same Time Same Place - Willow returns and subsconsciously due to her fears does a spell to make herself invisible. It's an accident but it has self-destructive results almost costing her her life. It really doesn't put anyone else in danger or hurt anyone - unless you count Spike's sanity. This reminds me a lot of the spells Willow inadvertently casts that go wrong in Seasons 3 and 4 - in 3, she mentions almost setting her bedspread on fire and taking out all the power in the block, or the fireflies that attack her in Fear Itself - which btw was a metaphor for Willow's insecurity and uncertanity about where to go and her fear of being unable to control her magic -attacking her - Willow like most of us is her own worst enemy, she beats up on herself more than anyone else does. Not to mention the inadvertent bringing forth of her evil doppleganger vamp willow. In the same episode, STSP - it's important to note that she is using the magic to regain her strength and heal as well and doing it slowly.
So the magic can both destroy and heal her. Two different properties. Which in Season 5/6 - was demonstrated in the contrast between Willow and Tara, and in earlier seasons in the contrast between Ethan and Giles. Or Giles and Ripper.

3. Selfless - Willow uses magic her as self-defense and to help someone. Two separate uses. And both make her a little nervous. The first is reminiscent of Willow's use of magic in Season 5, hence the black eyes - where she used magic at the end of Season 5 as self-defense. It also may metanarrate on Season 6 a little - where she was confident about it. Her use of magic to call D'Hoffryn is an interesting metanarration on Something Blue and to some degree the events of Bargainging - she is using it to help someone and standing up to an entity who is far worse than she is. An entity who believed it could twist her to it's use - this is important to remember in a way - because instead of D'Hoffryn twisting Willow, Willow convinces D'Hoffryn to change Anya's situation - sort of the opposite of Something Blue - where Anya attempts to call D'Hoffryn in order to save Willow from his clutches and is unable to do so.

5. Him - this is an interesting episode, because in it Willow is under someone else's spell, just as she was under Xander's love spell in Bewitched. Bothered. Bewildered. It metanarrates on several episodes for Willow - one BBB,
the mindwiping of Tara last year, the idea of changing people into what you wish them to be, the changing of the rat back into Amy so she could have a magically-inclined friend - also for Amy's own benefit of course. What she had decided to do was as horribly wrong as Buffy, Anya and Dawn's actions - demonstrating how all four women had evil in them. And how their powers could go dark. Something to remember - I think. In fact something tells me HIM is going to seem very ironic in the months ahead.

7. CwDP - here we go...Willow's deepest darkest fears are brought out into the open, she's no longer confident Willow of Season 5 and Season 6 - she's terrified Willow of Season 2 and 3. Magic scares her a little. The darkness inside her - scares her. She has learned a grudging respect for power. At the same time - she does not entirely believe the first - she knows she's not evil and she knows she can do good with magic. Just because she has magic inside does not mean it will be used for ill or evil.

8. BoTN - Will gets scared to death - because her locator spell for the first - finds herself. Well duh. Evil is inside us all. That does not mean however she shouldn't use magic. If she had done a locator spell for good - it would have had the same result. No shortcuts.

9. Showtime - Willow overcomes her fear and uses magic sparingly - keeps out the ubervamp for a little while, lends it to strengthen Buffy as Buffy lent her strength to Willow. The magic is used with others.

10. Potential - she doesn't do the spell alone - she and anya and xander and dawn and andrew do it and they are careful. She's nervous about it. It's not a short-cut, it's thought out. And unlike her spells in Triangle or Something Blue - it actually works - more like the spells she did with Anya in STSP, Tara in numerous episodes. A metaphor for how working with others and lending our strength works better than alone. Similar if you will to Primeval. Willow isn't hiding here.

It's not Willow's magic that gets her in trouble so much as it is her fears, insecurities, and uncertainities about herself and those around her. Deep inside, she's still that little girl wearing the wrong clothes, the Captain of the nerdsquad, the geek. What she doesn't quite realize yet, maybe she's beginning to - is her friends love that girl.
And I think she is getting that - because in Lessons she states to Giles - that girl is who she would like to be again.

At this point...I can see every character in the show flipping besides Willow. I actually think Willow may be okay, she'll have some nasty turns here and there, but nothing as serious as last year.

Not sure if this fits here - since it's not really a comment on "short-cuts" per se, because I'm not really sure I see her as using short-cuts this year. In years past? Maybe. But not this year.

SK
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Euclid's Royal Road -- Malandanza, 15:39:56 01/25/03 Sat

I find myself in the ironic position of having to explain myself on the whole magic shortcuts issue because of shortcuts I took in my initial postings -- had I found the scenes and cut and pasted them into my posts, perhaps there would have been fewer misunderstandings (or, at least, different ones).

Philistine was correct about the Fear, Itself quote -- I meant the Buffy/Willow/Oz discussion that you quoted -- and here's the rest of it:

WILLOW: I don't know. Then again, what's college for if not experimenting? Maybe I can handle it. I'll know when I've reached my limit.

OZ: Wine coolers?

BUFFY: Magic.

OZ: Oh. Didn't encourage her, did you?

WILLOW: Where's supportive boyfriend guy?

OZ: Picking up your dry-cleaning. But he told me to tell you he's afraid you're going to get hurt.

WILLOW: Okay, Brutus.
(beat)
Brutus. Caesar, betrayal, trusted friend, backstabby...

OZ: No, I'm with you on the reference, but I'm not gonna lie about the fact that I worry. I know what it's like to have power you can't control. Every time I start to wolf out I touch something deep dark... it's not fun. But whatever you decide, you know I'll back your play.


Given Buffy's later remark in this episode (Let's be honest, Will, your basic spells are usually about fifty-fifty), I don't think there was a misunderstanding -- Buffy said what she thought and then backtracked when Willow objected.

"The judgment of "shortcut" is a moral one. It's used to denote someone who is morally obligated to accomplish a task one way, but instead does it in a different (easier) way."

I agree with your definition and I believe that is exactly what Willow has done in her magical studies. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about her using magic to light the bonfire in BvD (at the start of Season Five) or putting up magical decoration for Anya and Xander's wedding announcement, I'm talking about her approach to learning magic.

Ptolemy I, king of Egypt, asked Euclid "if there was in geometry any shorter way than that of the Elements, and he answered that there was no royal road to geometry."

Unfortunately, there is a royal road to magic -- and it leads straight through Hell. You can have all the power you want, as quickly as you want it, you just have to "give a little to get a little." In Season Three, Giles doesn't take a particularly active role in discouraging Willow's magical studies, but we do learn that he disapproves with the speed with which she experimenting with more and more difficult magicks and that Willow knows he disapproves of her shortcuts from scenes like this:

GILES: Where did you find that volume?

WILLOW: In the top of your book cabinet, with the stuff you try to keep hidden.

Giles scowls, but goes to retrieve the book.

XANDER: Hidden? Any engravings I should know about? Frolicking nymphs of some kind?

WILLOW: No, just magic secrets Giles doesn't think I'm ready for.

Enemies

Willow ought to have been taking a more careful, considered approach to magic. She didn't stop to learn the why of magic, she never bothered with consequences, unlike Tara. The transcript doesn't do justice to the OoMM scene with the tinkered light spell, but there was genuine concern in Tara's voice and a little alarm as well when Willow revealed that she had been playing around with the spell. Now perhaps you didn't hear concern -- it is subjective -- but I doubt you heard approval.
Certainly by Tough Love, Tara is concerned.

WILLOW: S-O-R-T of... it's just... I mean I just feel like the junior partner
sometimes, you've been doing everything longer than me, you've been out longer, and practicing witchcraft way longer--

TARA --Oh but you're way beyond me there. In just a few -- I mean it frightens me how powerful you're getting.

(Beat. That was definitely the wrong thing to say.)

WILLOW: That's a weird word.

TARA: (knows damn well) "Getting"?

WILLOW: It frightens you? I frighten you?

TARA: That's so not what I mean. I meant impresses, impressive...

WILLOW: Well I took Psyche 101 -- I mean, I took it from an evil government scientist who was skewered by her Frankenstein-like creation right before the final -- but I know what a Freudian slip is.

Willow's lack of magical instruction is particularly telling in episodes like Forever -- she hasn't bothered with the background studies so doesn't understand why issues like balance are important.


TARA: Of course you want to bring your mother back. And I wish we could. But it's not possible.

DAWN: Why? You guys do magic for all kinds of things.

WILLOW: We do, but...

TARA: This is different. Magic can't be used to alter the natural order of things-

DAWN: All you do is mess with the natural order of things! You make things float and disappear and, and-

TARA: (interrupting) But we don't mess with life and death. Dawn - I know how bad you hurt-

DAWN: You don't! They put her in the ground-

TARA: They did, and it's awful and unfair - but this isn't the way.

WILLOW: I'm not even sure it's possible, Dawn. I mean, I've seen things about resurrection. There are books and stuff...

Willow wavers for a moment. Why can't it work? She looks to Tara.

WILLOW: But I guess... the spells backfire?

TARA: That's not the point-

I guess it was Tara's turn for boring exposition. But, of course Willow never took an oath -- she didn't even know about the oath. She doesn't even know what's in the book she passes off to Dawn:

TARA: What happened to "History of Witchcraft?"

Willow sits up, alarm and guilt rising.

WILLOW: I - it isn't there?

Tara shakes her head, turns to Willow - concerned.

TARA: Dawn must have taken it.

WILLOW: What? No, she didn't. She did?

TARA: That book has a whole section on resurrection spells. (worried) This is bad. This is really bad...

Now Willow looks worried too. And regretful.

WILLOW: But it's just a history book. It might answer some of her questions - but it's not like she could do any harm with that stuff. Could she?

TARA: It doesn't have a "how to" guide, but it refers to specific resurrection spells and potions.

Willow stands - fully freaked.

WILLOW: I didn't- I mean, hey! How'd she know that?

TARA: I don't know. But she could get into major trouble with that information. (looking around) God. What else did she take-

WILLOW: (too quickly) Nothing.

Tara gives Willow a look - how would she know? Willow starts to ramble nervously-


So I think there is ample evidence that a systematic study of magic over a periods of many, many years is essential for the appropriate use of magic and that Willow, not unlike Amy and some of Racks other customers, wanted power without all that tedious mumbo jumbo about the Earth and balance, so took shortcuts in her studies which eventually came back to haunt her.

As for some of the other issues:

"Willow's hacking doesn't fit for 2 reasons. One is that JW expressly states on the S2 commentaries that they used the computer as a plot device to find essential information that couldn't otherwise be developed. Because it's a plot device, it's unfair to assess blame for it -- that would be like blaming Giles for being boring because of his lengthy expositions in the library (also a plot device)."

A plot device is like Xander summoning Sweet -- contrived, used once and abandoned. Feel free to ignore it. The hacking and exposition became facets of Willow's and Giles' character so I don't think you can rightly dismiss them so lightly. Perhaps it was originally a plot device, but it no longer is.

"Criticism of her actual use, regardless of the source of that criticism, carries with it the faint whiff of hypocrisy -- no one was objecting when Willow's spells repeatedly saved the lives of the SG."

If a policeman used his gun to save me from a murderer would I be hypocritical if I objected to him later firing that gun with reckless abandon? Or hunting down and trying to kill his ex-girlfriend or someone who attacked his girlfriend? Or how about if he just randomly fired a few shots into the air to celebrate his friend's announcemnt of his engagement? Somehow, I think not. Willow thought magic is a privilege or a toy rather than a tool to be used responsibly -- thanks to some remedial education by the Coven, she now knows better.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> From Sardis to Susa -- Sophist, 09:08:52 01/26/03 Sun

Those being the terminal points of the Persian Royal Road, and a Greek expression for traveling a long, complete journey.

Given Buffy's later remark in this episode (Let's be honest, Will, your basic spells are usually about fifty-fifty), I don't think there was a misunderstanding -- Buffy said what she thought and then backtracked when Willow objected

I'm unpersuaded. Oz clearly was concerned. But his statements which you quote tell us nothing about Buffy's attitude. Buffy's comments at the beginning are not clear and her statements in the house reflect Willow's fears, not Buffy's actual beliefs.

Certainly by Tough Love, Tara is concerned

No doubt she is. But the concern she actually expressed, and which you quoted, was about the extent of Willow's power, not the speed with which she got there. She did start to say something else, but we'll never know what it was.

Your other comments involving Willow and Tara all require inference. I'm not saying the inferences can't be made -- the problem with logic is that so many inferences are possible -- but they don't support your position unless you're already convinced of it.

The hacking and exposition became facets of Willow's and Giles' character so I don't think you can rightly dismiss them so lightly. Perhaps it was originally a plot device, but it no longer is.

Depends on how much credit we want to give to authorial intent. This varies from person to person, and I'm sure I'm not entirely consistent in how I use it myself. However, when JW says it, I'm more inclined to give it weight. Here, I think that what he's telling us is this: "Giles is boring" is not a message ME is deliberately sending us; it's a side effect of a plot device. Same with Willow. Of course, you are free to ignore JW's comments and judge the characters solely by what you see. That's perfectly valid.

You did not respond to my second, substantive argument, namely that Willow used her hacking skills the same way Buffy used burglary -- in a good moral cause that removes it from the "shortcut" category.

As I said above, Willow's character was firmly established in S1-3 as one who not only did all the work she was supposed to do, she did extra. She taught others; she followed all the rules to the point where she was "reliable dog-geyser person". The claim of "shortcut" is incompatible with this basic persona.

If a policeman used his gun to save me from a murderer would I be hypocritical if I objected to him later firing that gun with reckless abandon?

Nice metaphor, but it has nothing to do with "shortcuts". As long as the criticism separates the beneficial uses from the abuses, I have no problem. Oz's comments in Fear Itself (which is where this part of the discussion began) failed to make the distinction you suggest.

Willow got her magic the old fashioned way -- she walked every inch of the way from Sardis to Susa.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> With a detour at Damascus -- Malandanza, 18:31:49 01/26/03 Sun

"Willow got her magic the old fashioned way -- she walked every inch of the way from Sardis to Susa."

I agree that Willow acquired her magical abilities herself, but at the same time I think there are profound gaps in her magical knowledge prior to Season Seven -- gaps that are there because Willow took shortcuts in her magical studies. It may come down to what you believe Willow was doing in England -- as I have said, I think the Coven was providing remedial education for the self-taught witch who learned all about power, but nothing about responsibility or balance:

GILES: You sound like Ms. Harkness.

WILLOW : She's taught me a lot.

Lessons

Perhaps you see her time in England as a natural extension of her self-education, but it seems to me that the Coven's beliefs resemble Tara's or Giles' more than pre-season 7 Willow's and that Willow would have had ample time to learn these lessons previously had she been inclined to do so.

WILLOW: When you brought me here... I thought it was to kill me. Or lock me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity, or with the torture... instead, you go all Dumbledore on me, I'm learning about magic, I'm all about energy and gaia and root systems.

It also seems to me that she recognizes that this approach to magic is the correct one, that the short-cut approach she had taken led her to the very precipice of destruction. Now she understands how much there is to know -- and how much she failed to learn on the road from Sardis to Hell Susa.

WILLOW (O.S.)I've got so much to learn.

EXT. ENGLAND - DAY Willow sits with Giles. It is not long after her attack, and they have been talking.

GILES: You always will have. That doesn't ever stop.

WILLOW: There's so much I don't understand yet. About control, and, and potions I'm not good with. Plus, many concepts I appeared to understand, I was only nodding and hmmmming in a pretend fashion so as to not look dumb.

While the Willow speaks humbly here, she really isn't saying anything that Giles didn't say (albeit more angrily) in Flooded (and, yes, I know Flooded is S6 and you have said that you thought Willow used magical shortcuts in S6, but I am not talking about Willow using magic as a shortcut -- I am still talking about Willow taking shortcuts in her magical instruction, which, I think, is borne out in this diatribe by Giles and indicates that to get where she is now, she skimped on theory -- and beside, if I want to talk about S6, I will -- you're not the censor of me :)

GILES: Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed? The lines you've crossed?

WILLOW: I thought you'd be ...(swallows)...impressed, or something.

GILES: Oh, don't worry, you've made a deep impression. Of everyone here -- you were the one I trusted most to respect the forces of nature.

WILLOW: Are you saying you don't trust me?

GILES: Think what you've done to Buffy.

WILLOW: I brought her back!

GILES: At incredible risk.

WILLOW: Risk? Of what? Making her deader?

GILES: Killing us all. Unleashing a hell on Earth. Shall I go on?

WILLOW: No! Giles, I did what I had to do. I did what nobody else could do.

GILES: Oh, there are others in the world who can do what you did. You just don't want to meet them.

WILLOW: Okay, probably not -- but they're bad guys. I am not a bad guy. I brought Buffy back to the world and maybe the word you should be looking for is "congratulations."

GILES: Having Buffy back in the world makes me feel indescribably wonderful -- but I wouldn't
congratulate you if you jumped off a cliff and happened to survive.

WILLOW: That's not what I did, Giles!

GILES: You were lucky.

WILLOW: I wasn't lucky, I was amazing. How would you know anyway? You weren't even there.

GILES: (almost yelling) If I had been I'd have bloody well stopped you! The Magicks you channeled are more primal and ferocious than you can hope to understand, and you're lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur.

My feeling is that if Willow knew what forces she'd have to harness, knew what lines she would be crossing, knew what primal and ferocious forces she would be channeling, she would not have attempted the spell. It is the gaps in her magical knowledge that contribute to her abuse of magic -- gaps that exist because she took shortcuts in her magical studies.

So yes, Willow got to that hilltop at the end of Season Six by herself (well, maybe with a little help from Amy and Rack -- maybe even Giles and Jenny, although mostly unconscious I think) and she would continued her roadtrip to its logical conclusion had it not been for the detour at Damascus (with Xander playing the part of the blinding light -- or yellow crayon -- whatever). She spent her time in darkness and emerged in England, with a new perspective. A born-again Wicca.

OTOH, maybe the Coven was so impressed by Willow, the self-made Wicca, that they decided it was time for some higher education. That England was more like grad school than summer school.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Many paths, one destination -- Sophist, 19:59:50 01/26/03 Sun

Taking the wrong path is not the same as taking a shortcut. In Villains-Grave took the wrong path. If there is an analogy to the Damascene road, that is it.

Whether Giles was right about the resurrection spell is something I doubt we'll ever know. I'm inclined to judge it by the results -- is it good to have Buffy back? If so, and I think it is, then I can't share Giles's condemnation in the absence of knowledge of the risks beyond his say-so.

I see the Coven as teaching Willow that there are other paths than the one she followed. These may even take her to her destination -- and that's the shortest cut of all.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shortcuts or creativity? -- Tyreseus, 15:11:57 01/26/03 Sun

Okay, I've read most of the posts on the subject here, but might have a bit of a different take.

Going back several seasons, in the Buffyverse, most magical spells and rituals are very precise in ingredients and method - i.e. the curse to restore Angel's soul, the with detection spell used on Catherin Madison in "The Witch." However, there is room for making changes. Look at how Giles and Jenny Calendar adapted the spell for trapping Moloch in "I Robot, You Jane" to fit the situation, casting a virtual circle of Kayless.

Willow has, almost from day one, had the creativity and originality to adapt and personalize her spells. From Psyche's transcript to "Bad Girls"



Cut to Buffy's house.

Buffy: Mmm.

Willow: You like it?

Cut to Buffy's room. She and Willow are sitting on her bed. Buffy is
sniffing a small black felt pouch that Willow gave to her.

Buffy: It smells good. What is it?

Willow: (smiling proudly) Just a little something we witches like to
call a protection spell.

Buffy: Good deal, protection. (sniffs) I'm surprised, though, 'cause
usually spell stuff's more...

Willow: Stinky. Yeah. That's why I added lavender. Give me time, and I
may be the first wicca to do all my conjuring in pine fresh scent. So
what's the plan?

In my training in Wicca, I was taught that every witch developes their personalized Book of Shadows, what works for you? Those who came before you can offer guidance and suggestions, but ultimately, you do what is effective for your own needs.

I'm not trying to project the rules of my own theology on Whedonverse, but a similar approach seems true of the magic users in the shows. Particularly Willow. So ultimately, I don't think Willow is "taking shortcuts," I think she's being creative and personalizing her magic.

Also, when Giles made his dramatic return from England at the end of Season 6, his magic use was a lot like Willow's. He's not incanting elaborate latin spells, he knocks her to the floor with guestures. Is Giles taking shortcuts? Or is he using magic by the most effective means in a given situation?

Okay, so clearly there are times when Willow used Magic as shortcut to accomplishing basic tasks (closing curtains), but I see nothing in season 7 to indicate that she is still doing so. On the contrary, I see many instances where magic would have been justified under the circumstances and she refrained. In "Never Leave Me" Willow could have protected herself and Dawn from the Bringers with the same barrier spell she used in "Selfless," but she didn't. I would argue that Willow is so scared of "taking shortcuts," that she may endanger the whole Scooby Gang if she doesn't get over it soon.

Just my $.02 on the subject.
[> [> [> [> [> exactly -- manwitch, 07:33:08 01/24/03 Fri

I completely agree. That's how she was using magic in Season 6. That's why I'm not sure that her ability to tap magic directly in Season 7 has the same implications, because Willow herself seems past the "cut the corners" place in her life.
[> [> [> Every spell she's cast this season. How's that for documentation? -- ZachsMind, 18:01:22 01/24/03 Fri

Anyone actually into pagan magicks will tell you it takes a bit more to do the spells she's been casting. She whips up a locator spell on the spot as if she were playing with an Ouija board. When you're dealing with powerful sources of evil, you preface every spell with protector spells, calling upon whatever you believe to be on your side. We don't see Willow doing that. She accesses the power of magic as if it were a file in a computer, without any attempt to protect herself from viruses or worse.

And what powers of magic out there are on her side? We're talking about a girl who spit in the face of Osiris. Maybe you think that's a sign of power. I think that's a sign of delinquency, and it's gonna nip her in the bud.
[> [> [> [> So essentially your making up your own rules? -- Dochawk, 19:12:05 01/24/03 Fri

You state: "Anyone actually into pagan magicks will tell you it takes a bit more to do the spells she's been casting" as the evidence she is doing it all wrong. So essentially your projecting what may be appropriate in real life to a tv show. Come on, there has never been an attempt to give more than a passing thought to what real life Wiccans do. Willow has to be judged on the use of witchcraft within the confines of the show. Within those paramaters she has been doing fine this entire season. Both Giles and the British Coven seem to think she is doing fine. There may be more trouble with her magic, but its much more likely going to be due to her fear of really unleashing it then abusing it.
[> [> [> [> [> I'm examining Whedon's rules. Not making up my own. -- ZachsMind, 21:18:29 01/24/03 Fri

Okay I'm not saying I'm some kinda authority on this subject. I mean, I'm not even pagan. I'm a Christian. I just have had a tendency in the past to date pagans. Doesn't make me an authority.

And yeah sure the show's just a show which doesn't pretend to hold laws of physics which are based in this reality. So maybe that's just the way magick works in Buffy's world. You don't even have to spin around three times and spit. Just read a magic cook book, aquire the ingredients (provided you can find a magic shop downtown that isn't closed due to the owner getting killed again), follow the directions and voila! You either have a magic spell or a souffle that smells like shed rattleskin and a dead rat.

However, based on Whedon's past track record, nothing comes without a price. Osiris said that there was nothing mystic about Tara's death. "It was a human death by human means" I believe is how he put it.

Willow has taken dark magicks and used them to attack evil. She's used that magick to bring Buffy back from the dead twice. She helped bring down a hellgod. And let us not forget that she actually caused Osiris to cry out in pain.

One reaps what one sows in Whedon's world. That's all I'm saying.
[> TV Guide character descriptions are flak puffery -- cjc36, 06:06:56 01/24/03 Fri

I think TV Guide was being 'creative' in describing for the general reader who Willow is to the BtVS universe. I didn't take the tag as predictive of what is to come with Willow's character.
Spike and little SIT, queries about 'Potential' -- Anne, 19:44:11 01/23/03 Thu

Unsure if someone has asked this already, haven't got the time to look down all the board, but I noticed Spike had no chip complaints when he smacked out Rona? and Vi in the opening training session in the graveyard.
Also, what happened to that mousy little slayerette from the previous episode, the really young one?
[> Re: Spike and little SIT, queries about 'Potential' -- Dead Soul, 20:14:43 01/23/03 Thu

Well, Spike must have been pretty hungry when Buffy got him out of the First's cave.

Maybe Chloe just learned that Death was her gift a little quicker than Buffy did - feeding Spike so that he could heal and teach the others to survive and defeat TFE.

Dead (Chloe's?) Soul
[> Tentative answers (Spoilers through Potential) -- Sophist, 20:20:30 01/23/03 Thu

We think the one slayerette may have accompanied Giles to China to pick up yet another SIT. They never said so, but that's the best way to maintain continuity. In real life, the actress apparently had other commitments but will apparently be back.

As for the chip, here is the dialogue from NLM:

BUFFY
When did your chip stop working?

SPIKE
Wasn't aware that it had, you know. Not 'til now.

That's all I know about it.
[> [> Re: Tentative answers (Spoilers through Potential) -- Anne, 20:53:51 01/23/03 Thu

Ah right, feel stupid now that I missed that; but then again, I almost fell asleep watching NLM, so I can plead that small - but crucial - piece of ignorance :)
[> [> Re: Tentative answers (Spoilers through Potential) -- Malandanza, 22:54:48 01/23/03 Thu

"As for the chip, here is the dialogue from NLM:"

And yet, in Sleeper, the chip seemed to be functioning when Spike was in control and not when the First pulling the strings:

SPIKE LEVELS XANDER WITH A PUNCH, knocking Xander out. Then he grabs his head and YELLS from the chip-induced-pain. As he recovers, he steps over him to open the door. He exits.

Sleeper, Psyche

I'd like to see some sort of verification that the chip really is broken -- and an explanation of how Buffy knew. I can she how she might believe it was broken because Spike was roaming around killing girls without ill effects, but it looked to me like the First was able to override or ignore the chip (which Dru was rather contemptuous of), not that the chip was broken. I see three possibilities concerning the chip and the SiT's:

1. The chip really is broken and ME either dropped the ball in Sleeper or decided to break the chip off-screen between Sleeper and NLM.

2. Spike didn't really hurt the potentials, in spite of all the Andrewesque whining.

3. The First still controls Spike. (He's looking awfully together for a guilt-stricken schizophrenic who could barely tie his shoelaces prior to the merciless torture).

Probably number two.
[> [> [> Or.... (spec only) -- Briar Rose, 00:30:01 01/24/03 Fri

Just as Spike can hurt Buffy without any repercussions, maybe he can hurt another Slayer, even a potential one. We don't know about Slayers effects on the chip except for Buffy's. He hasn't been in the situation until now, or as was already said, he didn't intend to hurt them.

There is also the fact that he CAN hurt deamons with impunity, so maybe there are a lot of questions that should be asked about what exactly these SITs are?
[> [> [> [> He couldn't hurt Buffy til she was resurrected -- KdS, 09:06:31 01/24/03 Fri

Look at Out of My Mind for a really spectacular example.
[> [> [> Another possibility -- Peggin, 05:32:47 01/24/03 Fri

1. The chip really is broken and ME either dropped the ball in Sleeper or decided to break the chip off-screen between Sleeper and NLM.

Another possibility is that the chip actually stopped working when Spike got back his soul -- maybe when those creepy beetles where climbing inside his head? I know we've seen him "react" to the chip a few times since then (I can think of at least Beneath You, Help, and Sleeper), but is it possible that was a psychosomatic reaction? He believed the chip was still working, so therefore he felt it trigger? If that's the case, now that he knows it's not working, he no longer expects it to go off and therefore doesn't feel it.
[> Re: another possible answer -- SpikeMom, 21:53:50 01/23/03 Thu

Also, recall from FFL that Spike said if there's no *intent* to actually hurt then the chip doesn't fire off.

Also, did Spike smack Vi on the ass when he released her? I could swear I heard a *smap*.
[> [> Yep - he did, Spike Mom.*L Great ears. -- Briar Rose, 00:31:29 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> yeah, but... -- anom, 08:46:21 01/24/03 Fri

...the way Rona went flying, it sure looked like Spike had the "intent to hurt" her, & Vi said "Ow!" 3 times when he pulled on her arm. Certainly looked like cause & effect, & the 3rd time he knew it had hurt her before...which adds up to intention to do it again. So why didn't the chip zap him?

Makes me wonder if the exchange in Sleeper--or was it Never Leave Me?--was retcon (from memory; it's not at Psyche's yet):

Buffy: When did your chip stop working?
Spike: Till last night, I wasn't aware that it had.

Are the writers trying to tell us it really has stopped working, & it's not just that the First kept Spike from feeling its effects? Even though we saw it work when he punched Xander? I thought this was another case of the characters' not knowing what the writers know--like that Buffy's death didn't/won't call a new Slayer--until I saw the graveyard training scene in Potential.

Oh! Got it! The chip can tell not only when it's not intentional...but when it's just practice!
[> [> [> Re: Alas, can't spec further as I have been rolling in filthy spoiler goodness -- SpikeMom (who promises to reform if there is a season 8) :), 10:44:22 01/25/03 Sat

[> Re: Spike and little SIT, queries about 'Potential' -- genivive, 04:09:47 01/24/03 Fri

Remember he has to intend to cause harm. He memtioned that in "Fool for Love"
[> [> It's all intent...... -- Rufus, 04:38:47 01/24/03 Fri

The other times Spike has reacted to punching people is because he struck out in fear or not knowing they were human and did intend to hurt them.
[> [> [> Or Rufus and I could do the 'we're so spoiled so we kinda know what's up' dance.... -- Juliet, 18:42:55 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Shhhhhhh........that's a secret dance....;) -- Rufus, 07:13:17 01/26/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> No fair with the dancing--you're tempting me! -- Dariel (trying so hard to remain unspoiled), 18:00:49 01/26/03 Sun

My analysis of 'Long Day's Journey' is up -- Masquerade, 22:25:32 01/23/03 Thu

Here. "Potential" is next.
[> How 'DO' you do this? -- frisby, 02:49:11 01/24/03 Fri

How do you do this? Do you just take notes or do you record the episodes and then stop it frame by frame? However you do it, here's some sincere admiration and appreciation!

One small point: you say:

"The gang later learns that the Beast has the ability to manipulate Angel, to make him do things and then forget them later--the Beast uses Angel to help him kill Manjet."

Are you reading more into the episode than I saw or do you somehow know more than the episode showed? "Did" Angel kill Manjet?
[> [> It's an assumption, Fris -- Masq, 09:12:42 01/24/03 Fri

If I'm wrong, I can always change it.
[> [> [> Re: It's an assumption, Fris (Oh! Okay.) -- fris, 15:57:49 01/24/03 Fri

Oh, I guess I hadn't realized the flexibility this form provides -- that's great, an ongoing online flexible commentary on the series! When the series eventually closes you will of course publish one of the final versions in book form? Of course, the hypertext aspects will have to be transformed into footnotes unless its an electronic book. Then again, maybe websites like yours will take the place of books? As usual I'm full of admiration with a touch of envy.

On your assumption, my gut says its wrong, but I'm not sure what is the correct one. If not Angel (Angelus) maybe ????
[> [> [> [> Alas, there are copyright problems to consider -- Masq, 16:58:43 01/24/03 Fri

I can't make a profit off this unless I get express permission from blah, blah, blah, blah...

Where's my lawyer?

PS I fixed my site so it says Angel helped the Beast kill Manny. That's consistent, I think with what the characters concluded while being ambiguous enough to allow for Angel or the Beast killing Manny.
[> Hey, where's Manny's description of Angel and Gwen...Superhunk and Spandexia -- Rufus, 04:46:53 01/24/03 Fri

It made me kind of like the creepy little guy...;)
[> [> I much preferred Cordelia's 'Supertramp' -- Masq, 09:14:03 01/24/03 Fri

Methinks Mere Smith is still stuck back in the '70's like myself...
[> [> [> 'Take a look at my girlfriend; she's the only one I got...' -- cjl, 09:25:29 01/24/03 Fri

"Not much of a girlfriend
Never seem to get a lot
Take a jumbo
Across the water
Want to see America
See the girls in California
Hopin' my wishes come true
But there's not a lot I can do...."

Title track from Supertramp's "Breakfast in America" LP, 1979
[> The Beast and the orb thing (spoilers for LDJ) -- ponygirl, 07:58:20 01/24/03 Fri

Masq, as with everyone else I am amazed. Speedy and insightful!

One thing that really struck me about the Beast's ritual was his swallowing of the orb at the end. So many myths involve some god or monster swallowing the sun, bringing on an eclipse or endless dark. Usually a champion is required to slay the monster and cut the sun out of it to restore the light. The image also sent me to my copy of Neil Gaiman's Coraline. There's a very similar illustration of someone swallowing a key. Oddly enough the section that the picture appears in involves Coraline looking for lost souls contained within very orb-looking marbles. Probably just a random connection in my mind, but the Beast consuming the orb does seem significant.
[> [> Well, I figured -- Masq, 09:17:17 01/24/03 Fri

the Beast took one of the talismans with him because having all five talismans is essential for reversing the spell. But that leads right back to the point you're making--they will need to get the orb from the Beast somehow.
[> [> [> Super-powered laxative, perhaps? ;o) Eewwwwww!!! -- Rob, 09:26:01 01/24/03 Fri

[> *who* killed manny? (spoilers for long day's journey) -- anom, 21:43:19 01/25/03 Sat

"...they conclude that Angel killed Manjet under the influence of the Beast."

I don't remember anyone's saying this (on the show, not the board!). I thought that Cordelia & Angel were both drugged, & that the Beast had gotten in & killed Manny while they were asleep. After all, why would the Beast need Angel to do its killing for it? He was still sleeping when Gunn & Gwen came back for their shift, & I didn't see any blood on him.

(BTW, hope my subject line's OK...I figured anyone who didn't see the episode won't know what/who the hell I'm talking about, so it doesn't count as a spoiler!)
[> [> Re: (spoilers for long day's journey) and a question for Masq --, 18:21:45 01/26/03 Sun

The suspicion that it was someone in the group was voiced first by Gwen (although Angel's conversation with Gunn implies a suspicion since he say's we'll follow up like any other lead) anyway, after she goes to check the security cameras and discovers that the power was cut, she notes that the A14 grid was shut down 10 minutes before Angel and Cordy were due on watch and she suggests that someone must have known about the timing of their watch and known whose drinks to spike. She thinks it was an inside job. Cordy suggests that it was Gwen.

The reference that links it to Angel occurs at the very end after Cordy reveals her vision and Angel confirms that the Beast knows him but he can't remember anything. Cordy asks would he remember since he doesn't remember falling asleep before Manny was murdered. Gwen (again Gwen) echoes Inside job. Wesley says that Angel is under suspicion. He goes on to say that if Cordy is right the Beast may have some sort of power over Angel over his memory and over his actions.

It's all a supposition and from there they leap to the thought that it's Angelus who has the answers and they need him. As usual anom, you always point out something important.

Masq: question again about the spell and your breakdown of the the powers and orientations of the five. I'm assuming you transcibed the reference to the compendium from the CC. And the break down was your take on the Ra-tet. Or did this come from somewhere else? I'd like to track it down because the Bargaining spell last season turned out to be very interesting.
[> [> [> thanks, angela! but i still don't see... -- anom, 21:22:02 01/26/03 Sun

...how this adds up to Angel's actually doing the killing.

"Gwen (again Gwen) echoes Inside job. Wesley says that Angel is under suspicion."

I thought this meant suspicion that he messed w/the tapes & the drinks, allowing the Beast to get in undetected & kill Manny. It just seems unnecessary to me for Angel to have been the one who killed him, & after all, he was (apparently) asleep. I tried to find the quote, but Psyche doesn't have anything after Spin the Bottle up yet.

PS--Thanks for the compliment!
[> [> [> [> Re: I still don't see... -- Angela, 07:52:19 01/27/03 Mon

You're right anom but try looking at it from a different direction, what if he wasn't really asleep the whole time but awake and fell asleep after the murder with a loss of this memory. The thing that I find odd is the cutting of power to the grid in conjunction with this. For some reason I find it easier to belief that he did a murder in his sleep or had the memory erased than that he cut the power. Of course, I come from a family of sleep walkers...my dad claims to have delivered his entire paper route in his sleep (in his skivvies) once. Part of the reason the audience (at least us here) make the leap is because we're watching both shows and we've seen Spike in a similar situation on BTVS.

...and PS I'm pretty sure she's got up to Habeus Corpus but it's in PDF and that still doesn't help you. I've been watching for it there and at Buffyworld. I'll post when I see it. And you're very welcome. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> still not convinced -- anom, 10:25:45 01/27/03 Mon

"...what if he wasn't really asleep the whole time but awake and fell asleep after the murder with a loss of this memory. The thing that I find odd is the cutting of power to the grid in conjunction with this. For some reason I find it easier to belief that he did a murder in his sleep or had the memory erased than that he cut the power."

The main problem I'm having w/the idea that Angel did the killing is that the Beast may have needed Angel's (or someone's) help to get access to Manjet, but--as we've seen--it wouldn't need any help to actually kill him. Not only that, but: 1) Manny said he was immortal except for ritual murder, & Angel doesn't know the ritual (didn't even know Manjet existed till the day before); 2) the murder scene wasn't consistent w/Angel(us)'s MO; 3) I find it easier to believe the Beast would need help to disable the surveillance grid than to kill Manjet, for the same reason as in 1: it's not likely to know how to manipulate a computer system.

But again, the main reason is that it seems much more likely that the Beast killed him. We know it can show up apparently out of nowhere, as in the opening scene w/Ashet & Gwen. In fact, given that, I'm not even sure it needed any help to get to Manny--just to make sure nobody saw or heard it kill him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Nor should you be... -- Angela, 12:03:36 01/27/03 Mon


Up board and elsewhere right now are people postulating that it was Cordy or ? My perception is that the gang is thinking it could have been Angel (I don't know what I think and very happily so) and given the last major conclusion Wesley leapt to (which may or may not still come true) his track record on assumptions isn't promising. Gwen is a mystery of sorts. Cordy likewise. Wasn't trying to convice you, anom. Just trying to explain, maybe someone more lucid can un-muddy this?
[> [> Quandary either way (LDJ Spoilers) -- PepTech, 13:08:57 01/27/03 Mon

If The Beast killed Manny, then either
A) He walked right by an unconscious Cordy and Angel - or maybe controlled Angel, either way - and chose not to kill them.
B) He teleported into the Panic Room, and if he could do that, why bother disabling any security grid. Unless the power grid stopped teleporting, like shields in Star Trek.

If (a controlled) Angel killed Manny, then he would have had to meet the Beast somewhere to hand off the orb.

--------

No matter which, the Beast has had ample opportunity to knock off Angel specifically, and other AI personnel generally - including up to two easy shots at Cordy. Presumably this will all make sense some day, but it doesn't yet...
[> [> [> maybe not? -- anom, 21:16:27 01/27/03 Mon

"A) He walked right by an unconscious Cordy and Angel - or maybe controlled Angel, either way - and chose not to kill them."

The Beast is offering some kind of bargain or partnership to Angel/us, so it doesn't want to kill him. Except maybe if he turns it down. As for Cordy...well, it apparently knows what she means to him ("Do you really think she'll be safe w/him?"), so it may not want to kill her because 1) then Angel would be less likely to accept its offer or 2) she has some part to play in its plan & has to stay alive to play that part. For 1 thing, she "saw" the Beast w/Angelus back when, & Angel wouldn't know what the Beast was talking about otherwise.

"B) He teleported into the Panic Room, and if he could do that, why bother disabling any security grid. Unless the power grid stopped teleporting, like shields in Star Trek."

Heehee! I like that idea. Well, maybe the cameras would've shown something about how the Beast operates that it doesn't want known, so it didn't want its "visit" recorded. Or maybe it just didn't want anyone to be alerted to its presence so it could carry out the ritual murder undistracted.

"If (a controlled) Angel killed Manny, then he would have had to meet the Beast somewhere to hand off the orb."

Exactly--that's why I think the Beast was there, & why it seems so unnecessary to pin the killing on Angel.
We've been overlooking something very Huge... ('Potential' and 'LDJ' Spoilers) -- BEV, 08:05:39 01/24/03 Fri

it hit me like a brick today, the Beast wants to block out the sun, right? He is planning to Banish humanity into eternal darkness, that will begin in L.A., spread to southern Cal and beyond until eventually "the world is the Devil's oyster."

And we have a major player in the Buffyverse named DAWN?

You don't have to play tonsil hockey with a horny Lister demon to see where this is going.
[> This is the Coincidence Police. Pull over. -- ZachsMind, 08:28:07 01/24/03 Fri

Move away from the computer an' keep yer hands where ah' can see'm. Have ya any idear how fast you wuz TYPIN' back dere?
[> [> LMAO! (wipes the tears from her eyes...) -- AurraSing, 09:06:45 01/24/03 Fri

I have not laughed so hard at a subject line in a long,long time.Thank you!

And I do think Dawn is there for a reason beyond being the Slayer's little sister.I don't think she ever stopped being the Key,did she?
[> Cool. Nice putting together of the 2 and 2 (unless the answer isn't actually 4). -- yez, 11:22:21 01/24/03 Fri

[> Up in th' mornin' with th' risin' sun... (spoilers for last few eps of either series) -- Random, 13:10:33 01/24/03 Fri

...gonna type all day 'til the guessing's done. Zach, let 'er off with a warning, that's a good fellow. I mean, think about it...a character named Dawn, an impending long-term eclipse...and the FE taking the form of a golly-gawsh Southern girl named Eve. Dawn, and Eve, the beginning and end, the Alpha and Omega, birth and death. Dawn. Eve. Dawn and Eve. Eve and Dawn. DawnEveDawnEve. Keep saying them. Not only is it too amazing to be a coincidence, when you say them together real fast ten times in a row, you start to sound like an alt tenor from a Kuala Lumpur a cappella group. Wonder where the next potential will come from, hmmm....
[> I wonder... -- Darby, 13:42:33 01/24/03 Fri

...if Dawn's name is entirely because Joss needed a name that he could slip into Restless without anybody noticing until later.

Hey, if Dawn is connected to both Slayers, as some here have suggested, they could have called her Hope and at some point in Restless had a character exclaim that they needed Faith for something, saying, "There's no Hope without Faith."

What other names could have been slipped in?
[> [> Re: I wonder... -- Rob, 07:10:37 01/25/03 Sat

There's one that was staring you in the face. "There's no Hope without Faith."

Hope. That's a name that could have been sneaked in.

Rob
[> [> Re: I wonder... -- M, 16:37:36 01/25/03 Sat

I thought it was simply to poke fun at why they put her in. She was supposed to bring some youth into the show, right? Dawn = new = youth
[> Re: We've been overlooking something very Huge... ('Potential' and 'LDJ' Spoilers) -- Thranduilion, 18:19:59 01/24/03 Fri

Well, I don't think that correlation (No sun in LA/Dawn in Sunnydale) will actually go anywhere, but AI will have to get the sun back pretty darn quick if we don't want to deal with the major inconsistency of there being sunlight in Sunnydale (NOT very far from LA) while there is no sunlight in LA. Sure, Manny says it'll take time to spread, but I can't imagine that it'll take a very long time to spread a hundred miles or so. :)
[> Dawn, Selfless, Potential and Umad -- darrenK, 15:50:26 01/25/03 Sat

INMO, Bev is right on the money.

Just the amount of time some-undetermined-supernatural-force spends on Dawn in Conversations with Dead People points to her being of more than passing importance in the coming trevail. It's as much effort as is spent on the supremely powerful Willow.

If that force sent Joyce to contact her then Dawn's role is big enough for the forces of good to need a messenger sent specifically to Dawn. If it's the FE then Dawn is important enough to require early removal as a threat.

Then there's the matter of Potential. Fun, fairly Dawn-o-centric episode that seemingly standsalone? Not likely. Instead it seems like a big mislead. Dawn isn't a potential so she's off the front-lines, right? She's on the back-benches with Xander and the normal people, right?

Wrong. Dawn declared Xander's ability to be that of seeing and what he sees is that Dawn is extraordinary.

It's probably worth mentioning that his declaration comes after she selflessly and egolessly "gives" Amanda, a Potential, her power.

I think the selflessness part is really important. So far this season we've had an episode named Selfless and at least two characters act in a way that the writers have gone out of their way to point out as selfless, selfless sacrifice. Xander's speech was a nice character moment, but it also really hung a big hat on Dawn's actions. It's obvious that someone wants us to notice the generosity that Dawn is capable of, the sacrifice she's capable of.

It's also a major contrast with the puffed-up self-importance that having an army of groupies is giving Joan, er, I mean, Buffy.

Joyce said that "Buffy wouldn't choose Dawn," maybe it's Dawn that will have to choose Buffy?

It's also worth noting that Anya's cute line about not getting the whole Buffy-Dawn same blood thing seemed to be aimed at the endless fan debates on the matter, but also serves to remind us of the true connection between Buffy and Dawn.

Over the X-mas break UPN reran Normal Again. Some fans speculated that maybe we'd see a return of the "Normalverse," maybe BtVS would even end in the "Normalverse?" Instead, I think that it was being replayed for just a few lines of dialogue: the ones about Dawn creating inconsistencies in Buffy's reality. Perhaps it's the existence of Dawn that's allowing the FE to kill the Potentials? Perhaps Buffy will have to choose between having a sister or the world having a Slayer? Maybe Dawn's very existance turns the world UMAD: upside down?

Either way, I think we'll be seeing Dawn as a major player in the coming apocalypse.
Amusing musings: sorcery and demons -- Corwin of Amber, 09:46:42 01/24/03 Fri

Ok, we've seen countless times on both AtS and BtVS that magic with bad intentions, or very powerful magics anyways (portals, resurrections, alternate realities) has pretty serious unforeseen consequences. In general, it seems to hold to the "threefold law" of Wicca, which can be paraphrased as, "whatever you do will be revisited on you, times three".
Well, does that apply to demons, also? The Beast is using some pretty powerful magics in his little field trip on Earth, so the threefold consequences for it would be....really spectacular. Is this why there hasn't been an apocalypse on either show yet? Is the Prince of Insufficient Light doomed to failure because of his own methods?
[> Re: Amusing musings: sorcery and demons -- masio, 11:21:52 01/24/03 Fri

Corwin

I like this idea and think that there may be some credit to it, but consider this:

Are we to assume that since the Beast will be repaid 3 fold that AI needn't worry?

AND

Just because our heroes have used magic and been hurt by it didn't mean that they didn't come out on top right? Willow did some bad S#!+ but everything ended O.K. for her so why can't the Beast do some serious bad and still come out on top?
[> [> Re: Amusing musings: sorcery and demons -- Corwin of Amber, 23:09:32 01/24/03 Fri

Well...still working on the theory... :)

My thought is that, magick wise, everything ends up balanced on the grand scale. On the personal scale, yeah it can suck immensely. Heck, we have all of last season of Buffy, as an example...but on the whole, it evened out...Buffy was resurrected, Tara died.
[> [> [> Re: Amusing musings: sorcery and demons -- AgnosticSorcerer, 16:09:29 01/25/03 Sat

I don't think any Threefold "Law" applies to AtS or BtVS, but rather, because Willow and those 'magically inclined' failed to pay meticulous attention to the magical endeavor's design bad things happen.
Thoughts on 'Beneath You' and 'Deep Down' (hindsight spoilers for later broadcast eps) -- KdS, 09:55:31 01/24/03 Fri

Finally finished my work for the day and read all the posts from the last 24 hours, and I can post some thoughts on Beneath You and Deep Down. It definitely seems as if ideally ME hoped for each ep of AtS to be shown close to the following ep of BtVS, as the comparison and contrast between the two souled vamps in these two episodes are remarkable.

Spike spends most of the episode trying to reclaim a place in a group of people who really don't want to see him again. Angel spends most of his episode being hunted by friends and enemies who want to get him back or at least know where he is. Spike is apparently sane for most of the episode but breaks down spectacularly to deliver a very emotional speech to Buffy in the final scene. Angel is deranged and hallucinating for most of his episode but pulls himself together to deliver a very emotional but controlled and articulate speech to Connor in the final scene.

I don't know how other people feel, but I think being spoiled for future eps makes Spike's behaviour in Beneath You harder to interpret. Is Spike trying to get back into the Scoobies' good graces in the hope of help or is the FE trying to use him as a spy. Might we actually be seeing Manchurian Spike, at least to some extent, until Ronnie's transformation shocks him back to himself?

Overall, I think I found Deep Down more effective, but I must admit I teared up during the final scene of Beneath You.

Some other things that came to mind watching the two eps, BtVS first:

The Tremors references in the scenes with Ronnie went beyond homage to outright plagiarism IMHO.

Buffy, Xander and Dawn have really given up all pretence of fitting in with the Sunnydale Denial Field. In the scene with Nancy at the house they made no attempt to pretend to be anything other than hardened monster-hunters. The superhero brawl in the Bronze between Buffy, vamp-faced Spike and demon-faced Anya should also have strained the Denial Field to its absolute limit, as well as getting all three of them banned unless the bar has a very elastic door policy.

The fact that Buffy didn't uninvite Spike even after the attempted rape shows how complex her feelings still are for him. (OK, you might say that Willow wasn't in any shape to do it, but Giles could have done it before he went back to the UK and Buffy has been known to cast the odd spell on her own).

A low joke, I know, but I loved the little embarrassed moment between Xander and Spike when Nancy asks if anyone in the group hasn't slept together.

I hated Nancy doing the standard dumb horror woman thing and running off alone into a dark alley.

I can see why the final scene caused such debate. To be honest, I think SMG was either having a bad day or badly directed because I couldn't see what expression she was trying for, and she didn't even look conflicted.

On AtS:

Firstly, can I just say that Gunn and Fred were more convincing as a couple than they ever were in S3. Don't know if it's the writing, the direction, or something clicked between the actors, but the ship is vastly improved for me. Loved Fred's attempts to learn Ebonics.

I was ready to hate Connor when I was reading S3 spoilers. I must admit, I was wrong. I think I was expecting him to be the all-American boy, but he's definitely the product of his mother and both blood and foster fathers. He does remind me worryingly of Faith when she first turned up in SD though - same relish for violence and lack of regard for the safety of his comrades in arms, although he can be colder than Faith ever was. Vincent Kartheiser definitely looks as if he did some working out over last summer.

Don't know if even AD was aware of it, but Wes's threat to take Justine's bucket away was terrifyingly identical in delivery to his possessed persona threatening Fred in Billy.

Note for Rob, when he gets around to annotating this. At the start of Angel's third hallucination, Connor is crouching on a roof in an exact duplicate of Spider-Man's trademark rumination/observation pose.

I have never been less moved and so overjoyed at the death of a human character on an ME show than at the death of Linwood. Personally, I think Lilah was too easy on him. Come on, the only possible reason why that guy got promoted was to be a lightning rod for vengeance by disgruntled enemies of the firm. However, while it may not be gentlemanly to point it out, I think Stephanie Romonov seems to have aged quite shockingly over the summer, unless she was ill at the time of the ep or badly made up.

I gather Justine hasn't been seen since this episode. Pity, I'd like to know if Wesley got through to her or if she found someone else to abase herself to.

One can sympathise with both Wes and Gunn when Wes arrives at the hotel. From Wes's point of view, some thanks would have been nice. But from Gunn and Fred's, he really should have warned them about Connor earlier when you remember that keeping his fears to himself was what got them all into the mess to start with.

It'll really upset C/A antishippers, but I really liked Angel's most important question in his reaction to Connor being whether he'd harmed Cordy.

Thanks once more to yab for lending her flat and TV.
[> Re: Thoughts on 'Beneath You' and 'Deep Down' (Spoilers up to Potential and LJD) -- Doriander, 14:26:02 01/24/03 Fri

It definitely seems as if ideally ME hoped for each ep of AtS to be shown close to the following ep of BtVS, as the comparison and contrast between the two souled vamps in these two episodes are remarkable.

Here's my spin on this. First, I'll restate how I've always regarded these two: Angel had been about 'what will befall on him next and how will he deal with it?' whereas Spike had been 'what will he get himself into this time and how will he cope?'

Typically external agents are accountable for Angel's ordeals. Spike OTOH, his own internal urges get him in trouble. Spike relinquished his hold on that when he asked for the biggest trouble he could get himself into, resoulment. And it appears Angel reclaimed accountability since getting hauled out of the ocean (or possibly earlier when he painted that seal in the hotel lobby).

I think Spike's breakdown in BY (featured some wailing on unseen on entities), overt in contrast to Angel's hallucinations (featured killing his own son and biting Cordy) manifest the switch that happened this season. Spike is the one strung along now; haunted by and puppet to the FE, and according to Buffy he had no free will hence not his fault. As for Angel--"The answer is among you."

I don't know how other people feel, but I think being spoiled for future eps makes Spike's behaviour in Beneath You harder to interpret. Is Spike trying to get back into the Scoobies' good graces in the hope of help or is the FE trying to use him as a spy. Might we actually be seeing Manchurian Spike, at least to some extent, until Ronnie's transformation shocks him back to himself?

I think you're on to something.

Overall, I think I found Deep Down more effective, but I must admit I teared up during the final scene of Beneath You.

I agree. It's solely the final scene that elevated BY in my estimation. DD, heck AtS in general is impressively more polished than BtVS this days. I'm expecting they wisely utilized the prolonged hiatus to make it more so.
[> [> Agree on all points. -- shadowkat, 21:11:42 01/24/03 Fri

[> [> Don't entirely agree with you re: timing for Angel -- KdS, 03:13:31 01/25/03 Sat

This may be just a semantic thing, but I think Angel started creating his own problems in S2. Admittedly, he was horribly manipulated by W&H over Darla, but it was his own choice to go all Mike Hammer, sack his colleagues, launch a kamikaze attack on a whole demon dimension (he thought) and attempt suicide by shagging Darla.

Other than that, some thought provoking ideas.
[> [> [> Re: Don't entirely agree with you re: timing for Angel -- Doriander, 08:32:46 01/25/03 Sat

You're right. Per Whister's words, Angel wasn't helpless, he's no puppet. And indeed only Angel was accountable for his decisions and his fall in S2. I was trying for simple, and lumped those in with the 'dealing' part. Angel dealt with the Darla and Dru thing (foisted on him by W&H) horribly.
[> Re: Thoughts on 'Beneath You' and 'Deep Down' (hindsight spoilers for later broadcast eps) -- shadowkat, 21:05:37 01/24/03 Fri

Thank you for pointing out why I rate Deep Down higher than Beneath You in my own ratings and why although I loved Beneath You - there were difficulties:

1.Overall, I think I found Deep Down more effective, but I must admit I teared up during the final scene of Beneath You. Yep completely agree.

2.The Tremors references in the scenes with Ronnie went beyond homage to outright plagiarism IMHO.

Buffy, Xander and Dawn have really given up all pretence of fitting in with the Sunnydale Denial Field. In the scene with Nancy at the house they made no attempt to pretend to be anything other than hardened monster-hunters. The superhero brawl in the Bronze between Buffy, vamp-faced Spike and demon-faced Anya should also have strained the Denial Field to its absolute limit, as well as getting all three of them banned unless the bar has a very elastic door policy.

The fact that Buffy didn't uninvite Spike even after the attempted rape shows how complex her feelings still are for him. (OK, you might say that Willow wasn't in any shape to do it, but Giles could have done it before he went back to the UK and Buffy has been known to cast the odd spell on her own).

Right there with you, thought exactly the same things when I watched this.

I hated Nancy doing the standard dumb horror woman thing and running off alone into a dark alley.

I can see why the final scene caused such debate. To be honest, I think SMG was either having a bad day or badly directed because I couldn't see what expression she was trying for, and she didn't even look conflicted.

Also completely agree. I think SMG must have done 20 takes of that scene. They even reshot it b/c the first round she came across as horribly unsympathetic according to the rumor mill. Personally I liked the solitary tear running down her face and the frozen look of pain as she stared at his back, but others disagreed. The difficulty - is and this is a hunch - I think she was given similar direction to last season - which is - don't over-emote, contain it, make it look as stoic as possible...yet also sympathetic, she's conflicted. Very few professional actresses can pull this off - the one's who can have been in the business for over 40 years - Vanessa Redgrave, Dame Judi Dench (Iris, Lady Macbeth), Meryl Streep (Sophie's Choice and Adaptation), Sissy Spacek (in In The Bedroom). To expect someone who is 25, has only down soap operas, a few B movies, a horror show to do get across this difficult conflict to an audience after 10-20 takes in a 48 hour period, without any reshoots and little rehearsal is I think expecting a bit much. She actually did far better job than other television actresses I've seen her age attempt the same thing...which most, admittedly aren't asked to do.
(And it is personal opinion - lots of my friends, including myself think Jennifer Garner who plays Sydney Bristow is the most unreadable actress on TV with only 3 expressions. ;-) )

Completely agree on Nancy. So much of the Nancy/Ronnie storyline was a lame horror movie/domestic violence cliche, which I felt was beneath ME's writing skill. They'd done it before too many times. I understood the parallel of course...but it did take the episode down a notch.

I don't know how other people feel, but I think being spoiled for future eps makes Spike's behaviour in Beneath You harder to interpret. Is Spike trying to get back into the Scoobies' good graces in the hope of help or is the FE trying to use him as a spy. Might we actually be seeing Manchurian Spike, at least to some extent, until Ronnie's transformation shocks him back to himself?

Having seen all the episodes that follow, have to say still on the fence regarding this. How much of Spike's multiple personality disorder is caused by the soul and how much by the First's programming and torture? Also the flip from the guy in the basement in complete and utter pain, insisting he's not ready to face Buffy yet, with his unruly hair to the guy who comes to her house, Mr. Mature with slicked back hair, blue shirt, very adult attitude is amazing.
They still haven't answered the pain question - why was he in so much pain in the beginning of Beneath You and doesn't appear to really be in any now? Did the first' programming turn on or off the pain?? Is the pain caused by a malfunctioning chip or by The First?

On the parallel between Angel and Spike - I think there's actually two paralllels - this is of course the obvious one. The other one is between the characters of Buffy and Angel. If you watch closely - you'll notice some odd similarities between Angel's behavior this season and Buffy's...it's a gut feeling right now, but I'm wondering if the writers are actually paralleling Buffy and Angel's journeys...more than Angel and Spike's?

Agree on all the Deep Down views - what did you think of the framing in the dreams - each scene with a family, then the slow disintergration of it, caused by something Angel did.
[> [> Good call on the hallucinations -- KdS, 03:24:17 01/25/03 Sat

Yes, exactly - it's always Angel's demon nature intruding. (By the way, yab and I are now convinced that the PTB abducted Cordy because Angel would have achieved perfect happiness if they'd met, making Angel's second hallucination a possible transmission of precisely what would have happened.)

As for the Angel/Buffy parallels, I'll bear it in mind.

(And I still think having Cordy talk about stuffing in the dinner is funny but faintly distasteful in hindsight).

On BY, I must admit that on first viewing I didn't see Spike as being in physical pain in the basement, just emotional.
[> Evolution of Spike's Awareness? -- luna, 08:20:56 01/25/03 Sat

"I don't know how other people feel, but I think being spoiled for future eps makes Spike's behaviour in Beneath You harder to interpret. Is Spike trying to get back into the Scoobies' good graces in the hope of help or is the FE trying to use him as a spy. Might we actually be seeing Manchurian Spike, at least to some extent, until Ronnie's transformation shocks him back to himself?"

I agree that there's a problem here. Either all will be clear later, or there's something to figure out. So far, my understanding has been that FE was still internal in Beneath You, and that in later episodes we "see" an external BadSpike talking to an external GoodSpike, but in Spike's experience what's happening is that he's becoming clearer and clearer on the difference between the two.

I don't know very much about mental disorders, but I wonder if this process is similar to the recovery from some of them.

Since this would also apply to his behavior in Lessons, there's also the possiblity that you're talking about something else altogether in Beneath You! Forgive me, if so.
[> Manchurian Spike -- Dariel, 11:58:54 01/25/03 Sat

I recall just hating Spike in BY, until he started to break down, and I'm a big Spike fan. He was so smooth, so slick, and so insensitive to what Buffy might be feeling that I literally wanted to throw something at the screen. Thought ME had lost their minds.

So, definitely think he was in Manchurian mode in BY (Same persona he displayed in NLM after FE Spike sang to him).
[> Still within the Denial Field -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:34:30 01/25/03 Sat

Discussing their monster hunting activities around Nancy would be unusual and worth mentioning except for one thing: Nancy had already found out the truth. She had seen something which she referred to as a monster, which is different than if the Scoobies told her monsters are real. Take Amy in "The Witch" or Oz in "Surprise" for example. Now, they could have made up a bogus story to explain it like they have in the past, but that would have two drawbacks: first, Nancy exhibited that she wasn't in quite as much denial as most Sunnydalians (she confessed to hearing stories about monsters living in town), and second, they needed to extract information about the Worm Demon out of her, which they couldn't do if they told her it was caused by a gas leak or something.

As for the fight in the Bronze, I suggest you look back over past seasons. "The Harvest", "Phases", "Dopplegangland", "Triangle", and "Seeing Red" all involve the rather crowded Bronze being treated to a display of the supernatural, and all but the last two involved Buffy fighting, and yet they appear to still be in the Denial Field. If any of these occassions went outside the Denial Field, it would be "Dopplegangland", where it's never brought up that lots of people saw someone who looked exactly like Willow kill someone (of course, most of them were Sunnydale High students, and we find out in "The Prom" and "Graduation Day" that they aren't totally oblivious to the supernatural). Now, Buffy would be behaving unusually if she had started the fight, but she didn't. Spike hit Anya first, then Anya kicked Spike. Buffy intervened through use of punches. The people at the Bronze probably saw Buffy as trying to stop some rowdy elements, and I doubt Anya or Spike would be banned since all witnesses would say that their faces were "messed up".
Sorry if this has been covered ad nauseum.. -- dream of the consortium, 10:06:36 01/24/03 Fri

But I haven't read everything in the archives, so forgive me. Anyway, overwhelmed with the number of references to seeing, especially in the last episode, but overall this season:

The spirits in Lessons are only seen by certain people
Willow can't see Buffy and Xander, and vice-versa
Spike sees people who aren't there (though of course they are, in a way)
The Bringers are blind
Anya and Giles visit a demon who is all eyes
Dawn tells Xander his gift is seeing
Xander makes a remark about the "definition of a seer"

Can anyone think of any others? And what do people think the implications will be - who is seeing or not seeing? Buffy? Us?

Also, because I haven't seen it mentioned - I just loved that comment of Xander's about how he could "fit Oz into my shaving kit." I mean, there's so much in that little comment - the reference to the shared memories that aren't (Dawn never actually met Oz, did she?); the fact that Xander has a little jealousy of even Oz, who never saw his wolfdom as annything but a curse; the subtle implication that Xander takes some comfort, even though surrounded by superheroes, in the fact that he's a pretty big guy; ooh, even the masculine symbolism of the shaving kit. So much packed into one little comment. Would that the rest of the episode had been so well written! (I didn't dislike it - loved parts, but it was uneven.)
[> Great observations. Spoilers above, BTW. -- Cheryl, 11:42:01 01/24/03 Fri

Someone here commented on the school fight scene in Potential, actually right after the fight, when Spike and Buffy learn Amanda is the SIT and Spike moves into the light but Buffy kind of stays shrouded in the dark. Does Spike see something Buffy doesn't?
[> Nice observation.. (recent Angel spoilage contained herein) -- ZachsMind, 11:55:06 01/24/03 Fri

It's reaching, and coincidental, but one could carry this over into Angel. Cordelia seeing The Beast in her vision before she could hear him speak. Her being trapped in PTB land and being able to see everything Angeles had done but unable to do anything. The evil little girl at Worthram & Hart who told them "the answer is among you" but the others couldn't see it because she was referring to Angeles who was sorta among them but not readily seen. And of course Angel seeing Connor & Cordy... y'know.

*makes Anya-like crude finger gestures*

Admittedly, the examples are not as prevalent and obvious in Angel as they are in Buffy, but we're dealing with the same production company and similar creative input so there is inevitably some thematic crossing over between them. Earlier in the season with Buffy the phrase "from beneath you it devours" was a big deal, and in Angel the phrase had meaning there as well because The Beast literally came from beneath and devoured L.A. So thematically there's a lot of back & forth between the two series, even if the networks have until recently been iffy on major crossing between the shows.
[> [> Sorrry - Spoilers to Potential (forgot the 3rd time I tried to post) -- dream, 12:39:57 01/24/03 Fri

[> Great observations. Some additions to list? (s7 spoilers) -- yez, 15:14:05 01/24/03 Fri

Just a note: Not only Spike has seen people that aren't there -- so have Dawn and Willow. And I guess all of them, if you include the FE's use of Eve. On the other hand, it's possible that only Spike has seen the FE at the same time that others (Buffy, specifically) could not; since there weren't others in the room when Cassie and Joyce showed up, not including Joyce appearing in Buffy's dream -- I think it was a dream. (Note to note: There's also Willow's inability to see Tara instead of Cassie, though I think that was just a lame fix because Benson wouldn't/couldn't reprise role.)

Some of these may be stretches, but:

There's also the Scoobies not seeing that Giles is being extremely weird, and us thinking we saw something (the scene in England) but still uncertain of what it meant.

There's Buffy's insistence that the SITs have to see her kill the Ueber-vamp.

There's the locator spell to see the Sunnydale SIT -- and the Scoobies seeing the wrong thing. They also accepted the first thing they saw (Glow!Dawn) and dropped it there, instead of looking just beyond -- outside the door to where the real SIT approached.

There are the high school kids being sent to see Counselor!Buffy.

There's Principal Wood's speech about "when you see the face of true evil... you can't not see it anymore."

There's Anya's contention in Selfless that Xander never really saw her for what she was -- or was that accept?

Ooh, ooh: How about the window that keeps getting blown out -- the opening in the house that allows people to see out? And then, of course, Xander's "loop" of having to forever fix the window -- fix their ability to see out? That goes along with the gift is seeing thing.

Uhhh.... I'm tapped.

Oh, how about their inability to watch the freakin' news and see that there are big happenings in LA?

And h

yez
[> Dammit, I can't stop... -- yez, 15:37:09 01/24/03 Fri

How about how weird it is that the blind men (the Bringers) have been so good at seeing the SITs -- most of whom haven't seen their true "potential" themselves?

And if what Joyce told Buffy in her dream was "true," then you have Buffy only being able to glimpse this truth when she's sleeping and her eyes are shut -- she's not seeing what's around her. And Buffy's resistance to sleeping (and the lack of sleep is going around, I think) can be read as her needing to keep her eyes open, to keep seeing, instead of getting some shut-eye.

There's also Buffy being blind to what Dawn is going through.

Re: Beljoxar's Eye (sp?), there's the somewhat ironic aspect of this "oracle" that's all eyes and yet can't see the future. And there's the eye in the cage thing -- like the audience in that our eyes are glued to the set, trapped by the box, and in that we can only see what's being shown to us in that box and we can't see beyond the "cage" of it.

OK, I really have to stop now...

yez
[> More for the list (spoilers for S7 so far) -- Dyna, 16:08:56 01/24/03 Fri

A few more instances of seeing/not seeing:

- Buffy's dreams, in which she "sees" the murders of potential slayers.

- Anya's reaction to Spike's soul in BY: "I can see you!" (A nice counterpoint to his line in FFL to Cecily: "If you would just--try to see me..")

- The FE's incarnations are visible to some who are present, but invisible to others (obvious, but not on your list, so I'm throwing it in; for example FE Spike is visible to Spike but not Buffy in the basement scene in NLM)

- (This one's from the shooting script to NLM; don't have the transcript and don't have it memorized so I hope what aired wasn't too different from this:) Buffy to Spike in the basement in NLM: "You're alive because I saw you
change. I see your penance."

- This one seems huge to me: We never "see" how Giles escaped the attack by the Harbinger in London, assuming he did; at the same time, what we did see looks so inescapable, we find his continued presence inexplicable.

(The situation with Giles reminds me of Jonathan Harker's in "Dracula": His diary ends with him about to be devoured by vampires, trapped, with no way out, death certain--and then the next thing we hear he's being nursed to health in a Transylvanian hospital. The question of how he escaped is never addressed (the topic isn't even mentioned), which leaves forever open the possibility that he didn't. Let's hope Joss is kinder to us than Bram Stoker was!)

As far as what all this means, I don't have a unified theory, but I have a sense that this theme has been developing for a while--probably since S5, set up by the riddle of perception that was "Restless." If only I had time for serious academic Buffy-thinking at the moment!
[> [> Right on, dream, yez and dyna! -- spaceclown, 18:56:02 01/24/03 Fri

I think you are really on to something.
I guess its just my personal whatever, but what really made me go hmmm.... and bring it all together was thinking about how Anya told Spike in BY "I can see you". It goes with the "It's me" and the "we are who we are" theme. Nice...
[> I got one more for (not) seeing.... -- WickedBuffy, 22:07:29 01/24/03 Fri

... and here's something we didn't *see* in 7x12, the potential slayer Chloe. No one on that show acted like she'd even existed, but she was fine in the two previous episodes.

(I tried using the "search" option to read other threads about this but I can't get the function to work. If there is one, could someone direct me to it? mange tak!)
[> 'Seeing' and the Return of the House Metaphor -- cjl, 02:18:04 01/26/03 Sun

Yez' post about the blown-out windows of the Summers home and how it relates to "seeing" brings us to the inevitable question: if the Summers home represents Buffy (and all her reflections amongst the cast), is Buffy at this point in S7, "blind"? Is that why Joyce keeps telling her to wake up, to open her eyes (in the metaphorical sense), because there's something about the nature of the current menace she's just not seeing? Are the Bringers, sightless though they may be, one-up on Buffy and the gang?
[> [> ZzzZZZzzz ::slay:: ZzzZZZ -- WickedBuffy, 16:17:50 01/26/03 Sun

I still think Buffy has been dreaming for about 3 episodes now.

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