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relationships on BTVS and Some ATS and some other crap -- masio, 11:11:59 01/17/03 Fri

First

Buffy and Xander. Has anyone picked up on their staring at each other a lot during intense scenes when the two are talking. I can almost hear Buffy thinking, "maybe i should have been with him." and Xander thinking, "Please, please, let this be the time she figures out that she loves me." I'm not sure about the Buffy part, but definatly the Xander part. Buffy is his first love. He'll never forget her and he'll always want to be with her that way if given the chance. No matter who Xander was with---Cordy, Anya---there is always a mention of the Buffster

When Xander performs the love spell in season 2, he is challenged to fight his feelings for Buffy when she hits on him. During his "Future" during the Wedding, Anya is pissed that he threw out his back helping Buffy (the one he truly loves)

Look for the stares in numerous episodes, but mostly when it is meant for the audience to think that he is being a good friend--like when Riley is leaving and Xander talks her into going after him. Stares galore.

Second

Willow and girls

I'm not entirely keen on lesbianism---me not knowing any who are full throttle (not bi-sexual) and i mean no disrespect to those who are, i just find this hard to believe.

Willo was in love with Xander for years. Then she was in love with OZ. I doubt if she was truly fully gay, that she would hurt so much if she was simply living by the "laws " of society. Willow can have feelings for boys. Tara just made her realize that she can also have feelings for girls. I find it hard to believe that she'd just omit guys from her spectrum completely.

Third

Cordy and Angel

Uhm, does anyone else see this as far fetched? I admit to not seeing enough of ATS but Cordy isn't really his type and she is human and therefore mortal, creating the same dilemma that Angel had with Buffy--that she will someday wither away and that he can never take her into the daylight. I suppose that now she may be part demon or something but i know that these feelings of Angels have been around longer than that.

Finally

In the main site "what does Joss have against..."

He has a mad on about factories

Could this be representative of why the buffyverse rarly uses technology (guns)
points--the initiative is evil (kinda) and They are brought down by their creation.
Factories are evil and so on

Uhm...i guess what im getting at is Is this Joss' take on how society has become more self-involved and pride driven since the technological revolution and how this pride in his mind has made us evil?

Just a thought

[> Re: relationships on BTVS and Some ATS and some other crap -- JM, 12:08:15 01/17/03 Fri

I suspect that the difference in the case of Cordy is that because of the visions, she's permanently tied to Angel. Oh so they think. They keep refering to the visions as something meant to guide Angel. So now he can't leave her life without causing her more pain (or at least when they were still damaging her brain.)

I have to admit, I don't hate A/C but I don't ship it. I've enjoyed the obstacles as much as anything. Usually the obstacles indicate that the characters are destined to be together, or are added to spice things up after they are together. I find it unconventional in that they seem to be used in this sitch to ensure that the two "leads" will never get together.

[> Re: relationships on BTVS and Some ATS and some other crap -- Corwin of Amber, 12:26:47 01/17/03 Fri

I don't think Buffy/Xander (Bander??? Xuffy???) can happen in the time alotted to remain in the series. Besides that, the legion of spike worshippers would arise and cause an apocalypse (again!). Plus, given this bunch of writers and Buffy's general relationship history, she'd tear out Xander's heart, stomp on it a few times and feel really bad about it afterwards. Actually, given this bunch of writers, she might even do it literally!
------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy plunges her hand into Xander's chest and rips out his still beating heart.
Xander: Ow! Why the hell did you do that!
Xander collapses. Buffy stares at the beating heart in her hand, with a look of complete puzzlement.
Buffy: Why the hell DID I do that?

From offstage:

"Thats a series wrap for Buffy the Vampire Slayer!"

[> [> I would like to make a nomination? -- PepTech, 14:28:12 01/17/03 Fri

Buffy plunges her hand into Xander's chest and rips out his still beating heart.
Xander: Ow! Why the hell did you do that!
Xander collapses. Buffy stares at the beating heart in her hand, with a look of complete puzzlement.
Buffy: Why the hell DID I do that?
-----------------
This is the single funniest snippet I can remember reading here, which is saying a lot. Nominated for a Stakey for Best Short Scene (Black Humor)...

[> [> *L Thank you CoA - I have never read a funnier or truer fan-fic and I needed that today. -- Briar Rose (reeling from weirdness), 17:20:26 01/17/03 Fri

[> Re: relationships on BTVS and Some ATS and some other crap -- diamond in the rough, 13:57:46 01/17/03 Fri

Buffy and Xander. Has anyone picked up on their staring at each other a lot during intense scenes when the two are talking.

Well, I find that I often stare at people when I'm engaged in intense conversations with them.

When Xander performs the love spell in season 2, he is challenged to fight his feelings for Buffy when she hits on him. During his "Future" during the Wedding, Anya is pissed that he threw out his back helping Buffy (the one he truly loves)

I think it's been pretty well established in "Selfless" and "Never Leave Me" that Xander still loves Anya. Otherwise, his "Heart replaced by darkness" speech in NLM makes no sense.

I'm not entirely keen on lesbianism---me not knowing any who are full throttle (not bi-sexual) and i mean no disrespect to those who are, i just find this hard to believe.

How unfortunate for you.

Willo was in love with Xander for years. Then she was in love with OZ. I doubt if she was truly fully gay, that she would hurt so much if she was simply living by the "laws " of society. Willow can have feelings for boys. Tara just made her realize that she can also have feelings for girls. I find it hard to believe that she'd just omit guys from her spectrum completely.

Joss has stated on more than one occasion that Willow is now gay and not bisexual.

[> [> ouch -- masio, 15:54:48 01/17/03 Fri

Jeez, give a guy grief for having an opinion

For a little clearing up--I just have never had an in depth conversation with a lesbian--and i don't find lesbianinsm hard to believe--i find willow's hard to believe.

It' great that Joss has said that, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's HARD TO BELIEVE

As for the stares

I realize that im probably way off on Buffy. Xander was my main point--i'm actually saying bravo to the writers and actors for remembering Xander's past feelings and making sure they shine through.

[> [> [> Re: ouch -- Tess, 16:05:00 01/17/03 Fri

Masio,

I'm probably going to get jumped on for saying this but I agree with you. It feels out of place to believe Willow is only attracted to women given her past love for Xander and Oz. But I'm not an expert in the field so I just remained quiet and went with what the writers wrote.

And I've also thought that they've been stares between Buffy and Xander of an almost 'what if' quality. Don't think anything will ever come of them, and don't want them to go down those roads. But I can understand looking at an old dear friend years later especially when you're dealing with the fallout of a bad relationship, and having the thought of 'why didn't I snap you up when I had the chance.'

[> [> [> [> Understanding the need to give good promo.... Joss is all over the board on this. -- Briar Rose, 17:50:31 01/17/03 Fri

Buried in someone's archives is an interview from Sci-Fi Channel where Joss states that Willow is "at most bi." Yet in Forum and the Gay based publications most recently he says, "Willow is GAY."

In interviews for some publications, AH says that Willow is gay - totally gay. Yet in some interviews, she says that Willow is more bi than gay. And on Politically Incorrect, she made it clear that even though her character was playing a lesbian, that she was definitely straight and has also said so on other shows I have seen.
It depends on the audience that they are talking to at the time, exactly how it is worded and also maybe depends on where the storyline of the moment is headed.

This is just from my own reading and research of interviews over the last two or so years - but the time line for Joss's change from "she is bi" to "she is gay" came when the backlash of fans against him killing off Tara with the (rightly?) alledged "Saphos Syndrome" where all lesbian lovers are killed was at it's most vocal. When GLAD was calling for the immediate cancelation of Buffy because they didn't like the Tara/Willow storyline's evolution. All of a sudden "Willow's G - A - Y!" is the party line.

The Entertainment Industry is a big money game fraught with minefields. No matter what you want to do about making the advertisers happy and keeping your shows on the air versus what you want to creatively put forth - you will have to fit the audience you are in and try and make every one happy. Which audience Joss is truly currying is only known to Joss. And it may change at a moments notice and neither or both are true in that moment.

I agree with Masio and Tess on the ambiguity of the character and that the writers could go either way with Willow. She has always played Willow as bi, even from "dopplegang Land". The writers have always played her as bi, even with "Him" it was only added "yeah... Gay now." when she was forced into the confrontation with Anya, Dawn and Buffy shouting "You're gay now." that she decided that she 'would have to do a spell to make him a female... Yeah! That works!'

College age is a time of experimentation for most people. Many people find they are truly bi-sexual when they are through experimenting, and some are still homosexual or heterosexual after experimenting. Just as many as go from pot head/frat boy beer hounds and then swear sobriety after they get it that life is not black and white and we can do as we will when we have the choice and take it.*L

Also as Masio stated, I have only known 2 completely lesbian lesbians out of the few dozen lesbians I have known. The rest were bi-sexual or based their attraction on specifics of personality in each parner they were with. Willow has always had inferiority issues. And she is always attracted to those who see her as beautiful and fascinating and worthy and make her feel that way herself. I doubt that the real inner Willow truly cares what sex they are physically.

Killing the Beast -- Holdemfoldem, 14:32:07 01/17/03 Fri

Was reading a thread comparing the Beast and the Uber Vamp and started wondering. - How the H!@#ll are they gonna kill this creep? Not only do I think that it could trash Buffy easily in a head to head confrontation, I'm dubious if even Buffy's good ol' rocket launcher can bring it down! Are they gonna come up with some sort of weapon that can kill it, like Buffy's rocket launcher or that big hammer she used to beat the snot out of Glory, or are they gonna get together, hold hands, and chant something that makes it go away?

Wait, I know. - They could all join hands, sing about teaching the world to sing, drink a coke and smile alot! (Definitely showing my age with THAT ONE!)

Ideas?

[> How about... -- Masq, 15:07:26 01/17/03 Fri

The AI gang all joining hands and doing a spell to create an combo-Angel made up of the combined psyches and talents of him and all his friends?

Cordy-heart
Angel-hand
Wesley-brain
Gunn-the other hand
Fred-the other brain
Lorne-spirit
Connor-yet another hand

First, of course, they'll have to mend their differences that have been so obvious this season, the ones that Spike has used to split them up. Oh wait, not Spike. He's on that other show.

Magic will defeat the Beast!

[> [> LOLOL -- Rahael, 15:58:21 01/17/03 Fri

[> [> Or a group hug! Who says that touchy-feely crap doesn't work? -- Deeva, 16:14:30 01/17/03 Fri

[> [> No ..talk about Spike and the Beast will be forgotten and leave in frustration.;) -- Rufus, 22:25:56 01/17/03 Fri

[> [> Re: How about... (variation on that theme) -- frisby, 06:27:49 01/18/03 Sat

Angel is not Buffy, and the spell from Primeval (4.21) called upon the power of the line of slayers back to the first, BUT, if Faith joins the show, THEN that same spell (with the heart of Fred and Cordelia, the mind of Wesley & Fred, the spirit of Angel and Connor, and the hand of Faith) might stand a chance -- Lorne can sooth the savage beast with his music while the spell is cast. Uber-Faith could likely do the job -- but then again, I'm also (as another poster posted) very unsure of the aim and motive of the beast -- is it really "to kill us all" (as Connor posited)?

[> Hey, didn't they say his symbol was fire? -- CW, 16:27:36 01/17/03 Fri

How come they haven't tried throwing cold water it? Or shaking up a bottle of beer and then handing it to the demon to open? Or spitting on it?... Or... or maybe I should just be quiet now.

[> [> Re: Hey, didn't they say his symbol was fire? -- JM, 07:40:30 01/18/03 Sat

Personally I'm leaning toward human sacrifice. If Connor is connected, then maybe they'll have to immolate him. Not that I want that, I actually like the brat, and I think he and Cordy have a shot at relationship.

Or what about a box that says Ebola, or even, humus.

[> Re: Killing the Beast -- Majin Gojira, 16:40:58 01/17/03 Fri

It's probably one of those "Can only be killed by" monsters. those kind of monsters tend to suck.

So, I say nuke the sucker!

BTW, what the hell happened to Buffy's Hammer?!

[> [> Re: Killing the Beast -- Holdemfoldem, 16:56:27 01/17/03 Fri

I was wondering about Buffy's hammer also, or perhaps some similar tool. I may be wrong, but it seems like they set up Glory pretty similarly, (essentially invincible to physical force and impossibly strong), yet they still came up with a weapon strong enough to bring her down.

So, what's the consensus, kidding aside - I know, I know, I started it! %^) Is this dude invincible to ANY physical force they can bring to bear on it, leaving that "one thing" or some sort of magic the only route, or do y'all think they'll come up with a physical way, like with Glory.

WARNING: "Uber vamp" spoilers ahead: I gotta admit, (as was THOROUGHLY covered in another thread at this site), they seemed to have set up the Uber Vamp in the same way, having tons of steel bars dropped on it from about twenty feet high just to have it get back up and keep on coming like nothing even hit it, only to have Buffy decide it was time to punch it REALLY HARD about half a dozen times, nearly knocking the critter unconscious before beheading it!

[> Maybe the Fang Gang won't beat the Beast. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:28:57 01/17/03 Fri

Just ruin its preparations for world destruction. The Beast, frustrated, does a little more mass killing, almost kills Angel, and maybe kills a regular character, before going off to whatever place he calls home to watch "Apocalypse Now".

Now, here's a piece of speculation: Darla gave birth to Connor in that alley, the Beast rose from that same spot, the demon club Caritas was just about twenty feet from where both events happened, and we've seen that the same area is also susceptible to portals opening. Maybe there really are multiple Hellmouths, and LA's happens to be in that alley.

[> Connor will beat the snot out of the Uber Goat -- grifter, 08:52:27 01/18/03 Sat

(UberGoat meaning The Beast, of course.)

After solving his problems with Angel, Cordelia and the other AI members, he will realize just how powerful he really is. That of course is what the Beast made Cordy sleep with Connor and sending Angel to watch them.

Then the Beast will kill someone close to him (Cordy or Fred being my prime candidates, or possibly Gwen should they hook up), finally pushing him over the edge.

Angel will say something like "That�s my son killing the apocalyptic demon there!"

Clues to the Beast's Identity (Angel S7 spoilers) -- BEV, 18:06:02 01/17/03 Fri

HC got me thinking, other than to get to the girl, why would the Beast want to Attack W&H? And better still, how did he get into the White Room in the first place? And why does he call Connor familiar in the hall?

I doubt I am the first to make this connection, but I believe the Beast is Angel/Angelus come from some future time.

Who would love a rampage through W&H more than Angel?
Who might have a personal Grudge with Connor?
Who knows the combination to get into the White Room?
Who was among the "you" that little red dying hood said the answer was among.

Answer: Angel.

It even gels with/mirrors his journey in Deep Down. Angel was underwater, the Beast was underground. Angel Kills Connor in his dream, The Beast also seems to be after Connor. But interestingly he listens to Connor. When Conner tells him to back of, he backs off.

And then there is that pesky prophesy.

[> Re: Clues to the Beast's Identity (Angel S7 spoilers) -- Malandanza, 04:58:32 01/18/03 Sat

"I doubt I am the first to make this connection, but I believe the Beast is Angel/Angelus come from some future time."

If that isn't the answer, it ought to be! Everything makes sense if the Beast is really just a very old version of Angelus (older than the master, maybe older than Kakistos) hence the pronounced physical changes. And it bothered me that the Beast took time out of his murder spree to tell Angel about Connor and Cordy -- I mean, why would he bother? But Angelus would bother -- it's what he lives for. Murder and mayhem is nice, but nothing beats a little psychological damage.

[> Re: Clues to the Beast's Identity (Angel S7 spoilers) -- Peggin, 06:06:45 01/18/03 Sat

I discovered this board a few weeks ago, and I love the level of discussion here. I've joined the conversebuffyverse mailing list, and posted quite a few times over there, but here I've only been lurking because I have a hard time keeping up with threaded boards.

But now I wanted to jump into the discussion and give you my completely different, and kind of wild, theory on what we're seeing:

Sometime, I think Joss hides little hints as to what is coming in lines that seem like they may be throw-away lines. In last year's season finale on Angel, there was an idea (which, at the time, seemed to be simply about fighting technique) that Angel expressed to Connor, and that Connor later threw back at Angel:

Angel: Where is your balance? Where is your balance? Huh? You lose it you lose.

Connor: It's all about balance. You lose it, you lose.

I'm starting to wonder if we can be sure that The Beast is, strictly speaking, an "Evil" creature. This is just a completely wild idea that came to me, but I've been thinking about what we've seen him do so far:

He walked away from Connor and Cordelia;

He killed all of the people at a club Wesley described as a "Temple of the Flesh";

He tossed Wesley, Angel, Lorne, and Gunn aside without killing them;

He killed all of the people who worked at Wolfram & Hart;

He did something to the evil "little girl" in the White Room.

So, again with my question: Are we sure this is something "Evil"? This thing seems to be deliberately targeting only people aligned with "Evil". Could we be seeing something that is fighting for the other side? A modern day Sodom and Gomorrah? (In Chapter 8 of Revelations, it isn't anything "Evil" that causes the fires to rain down on the earth; it is the angels of God.)

Last year, Joss went out of his way to show us that the characters on both shows had plenty of flaws, and that none of them were incapable of doing things that came across as wrong. But is "wrong" automatically "Evil"? The Knights of Byzantium, ready willing and able to kill an innocent girl and all of her friends just to keep Glory from getting the Key; the way Buffy treated Spike last season; Holtz's crusade against Angel; Wesley kidnapping Connor; even Willow's nearly destroying the world to "save" humanity from all the pain they were living with - maybe these aren't so much examples of "Evil" acts as they are examples of people going too far in the opposite direction. Maybe going too far in the direction of "Good" is just as undesirable as going too far in the direction of "Evil".

Could this be the story that Joss is telling? What if "Good" is just the opposite of "Evil" -- two opposing sides in a war, but neither one any more desirable than the other? Kind of like the "war" between ultra-ultra-conservatives and ultra-ultra-liberals - two sides who see things in completely different ways and refuse to see that the other point of view may be at all valid. Maybe we shouldn't want "Good" to win the war, any more than we want "Evil" to win the war. In Eastern thought, good and evil are just opposite sides of the same thing, and you need one to have the other. Maybe we want to stop both sides from winning. In the end, maybe the only way to keep the entire world from being annihilated is to keep the balance between the two sides.

[> [> Comment on that clue -- frisby, 06:20:32 01/18/03 Sat

Important insight, but actually an old story, because is it not implicit that those who fight for a balance of good and evil become 'good' while those who fight for the victory of good over evil (or evil over good) become 'evil' (or bad)?

At the end of Buffy 7.1 The First says something like its tired of the whole good/evil balancing thing, meaning its going for some big final shot in the dark aimed at either winning it all, or losing it all. So maybe before that, it was all "for" balance? Or was that then evil?

Nietzsche expends great effort fighting morality in favor of amorality (beyond good and evil) only to then realize that amorality is always temporary and transitory, giving way to a "new" morality -- as he says, old toys like 'God' and 'sin' are put away, but new ones are then brought out.

"It's all about power" (Buffy 7.1) but then what can overpower morality (besides another morality)?

Welcome to Atpobtvs

[> [> I can accomodate... -- BEV, 07:34:41 01/18/03 Sat

your notion that the Beast may not be evil. In fact it was the first thing that occured to me, when he went after W&H. It may be that we are looking what Angel will become after centuries of fighting the good fight.

Another corollating fact is that the first thing the Angel/Beast did was black out the sun. Why? Because he is a vampire, and it creates his ideal hunting ground, and as Lilah pointed out blithey "he can". Something tells me, direct sunlight would've eventually dusted him.

[> [> [> If it is... -- Majin Gojira, 11:31:48 01/18/03 Sat

if it is a vampire...where are it's fangs? the brow ridge? Did I miss them or something?

Angel 4.9 and the Angel comic books (No Spoilers except episode title) -- Q, 10:34:14 01/18/03 Sat

I posted this last night and now it is gone. I can't figure out why, unless the episode title I gave was considered a spoiler and it got erased. So here I go again.

Joss penned a 4 part Angel comic book series a while back. The first installment was titled:

"Long Night's Journey"

Next weeks episode of Angel is called:

"Long Day's Journey"

Any speculation on whether or not this is a coincidence, or if any of the themes from the comic book will show up here? The comic was rich in back story and unknown Angel history, as well as being rich in possibilities for the future. It would be neat to see it on the screen.

Is FE flesh or fear? -- ZachsMind, 12:09:10 01/18/03 Sat

One of the many theories I like to play with is that this "First Evil" is actually a manifestation of someone who is behind The Bringers.

The following is from Amends...

Giles: These letters contain references to an ancient power known as The First.
Buffy: First what?
Giles: Evil. Absolute evil, older than man, than demons... Buffy: ...Who are these guys?
Giles: They're known as the, Bringers, or Harbingers. They're high priests of The First. They can conjure spirit manifestations and set them on people, influence them, haunt them. ...You can't fight The First, Buffy. It's not a physical being.
Buffy: Well, I can fight these priest guys.
Xander: If we can find them.

The First Evil that is communicating with the Scoobies claims to be THE First Evil of all time & space, but let's face it. That's about as absurd as believing Tom Cruise would hang out at a Whataburger with his fans, y'know what ah'm sayin'? The First Evil's a bit beyond fraternizing with lower life forms like human beings. It was a bad enough stretch to believe a god like Glory would rub elbows or bash heads with "human meat sacks." Talk about suspension of disbelief.

The Real Big Bad. The invisible midget behind the curtain. The First Evil is just an illusion that is being used to distract the Scoobies so they don't put a stop to the real Big Bad's plan before s/he/it is able to expose him/her/itself.

From "Showtime"...

Beljoxa (the Eye Guy): It cannot be killed... The First Evil has been and always will be... Since before the universe was born... Long after there is nothing else... It will go on.
Giles: I refuse to believe that! There has to be some way to destroy it!
Beljoxa: What am I, talking to myself here? There's no way.

The only thing that I can see which would nullify this theory is the fact that Willow has actually sensed The First Evil. Again, from Showtime:

Willow: Last time I tried a spell, the First - it had me. Got inside. I felt it. In every fiber of my being. Pure, undiluted evil. I could taste it.
Kennedy: How's Evil taste?
Willow: A little chalky.

It is possible that Willow's imagining that. Or that whoever is powerful enough to manifest the illusion of TFE is also powerful enough to give Willow the illusion that she's felt the First's presence. Still, it's more valid and believable to believe Willow's just freaking herself out and imagining things, than it is to believe that The First Evil has cleared everything off its calendar in order to intimidate a handful of mortal troublemakers who, let's face it, are about as important on a galactic level as one single bee is to the ecological system of the planet Earth. I mean, on a quantum chaos-theory level of course Buffy is affecting the universe in a manner that is effective. In the larger scheme of things though she wouldn't be a blip on the viewscreen of even the twelfth evil. Thirteenth? Maybe. Certainly not The First.

Now, we know from "Same Time Same Place" that Willow is capable of adversely affecting the perspective of her own reality, as well as the perspective of reality for others near her. This "First Evil" could very well be the darker side of Willow, being repressed from Willow's unconscious but being too powerful to completely keep down. Willow is very self-conscious about her own guilt, and feels further guilty that her punishment didn't fit the crime. She may just be torturing herself.

So the invisible midget behind the curtain that is controlling this First Evil thingy, could very well be the darker side of Willow. OR it could be one of the Bringers, OR it could be some completely new character who is influencing the Bringers. OR as usual it could actually be THE First Evil and I'm completely full of mud.

[> Oh, uhm... spoilage for Amends & Showtime above, plus season 7 speculation -- ZachsMind, 12:30:21 01/18/03 Sat

[> you're full of mud... -- BEV, 12:40:48 01/18/03 Sat

and you are limiting the FE to your understanding of Evil. I humbly submit that the FE is bahaving in a very FE manner. Evil, Real evil, is unpredictable. Angelus is the model for BTVS villains, and he shows us how obsessive an Evil mastermind can be. Even when he turns, he is still Buffy-crazed.

Anyway, even if Buff and the SG are so insignificant as you make them out to be (and they aren't, after all Buffy has saved the reality at least 6 times by Giles count in TG, and Xander has saved the World once, from Willow who very nearly destroyed the World after she become one of the most powerful magic users in, presumably, human history. And let's not forget that Anya, the lieutenant of Arash M'har, who had a chance to kill the SG and prevent their meddling in the FE's affairs, blew it when Giles saved mankind from the Wish-verse, whew)this is the FE's chance to wipe out the whole Slayer Line, a significant cadre in the force of Good, and That makes this group worth the investment of time.

The only thing that bugs me is if the FE is "over the whole good and evil balancing the scales" thing, why is it fighting at all? I think this line may have been a little bragadocious. The FE is bound to be grandiose, the apples never fall far from the tree.

[> [> The Sacrifice and The Target -- ZachsMind, 20:17:21 01/18/03 Sat

The writers have got to find an out. If this is THE real First Evil, it can't be killed. From a writing standpoint, there's nowhere to go but DOWN. There's two major plot elements in every season of Buffy: The Sacrifice and The Target, but last season and this season the writers have been.. well, I'll explain later.

As Dream Joyce was trying to tell Buffy, evil is a natural force in the universe. Fighting the actual source of all evil is like trying to stop the rain from falling, or the wind from blowing. I guess what I was saying in my previous post is there's still time for the writers to come up with an out. Something that's actually tangible which is pulling the strings of this illusion. It was established in Amends that the harbingers can generate these illusions through their magicks. If Buffy can find out where the source of these illusions originates, then she's got a target to shut down.

However, if they stick with this elusive "the First Evil can't be killed" malarkey, there's nowhere to go. They write themselves into a corner.

It's like the classic Scooby Doo plotline. Initially the storyline reveals that there's a werewolf or a ghost or some other mean creature but the Scooby Doo gang looks for actual evidence and through a series of clues that they stumble into, Thelma is eventually able to put the pieces together and prove that the meanie ghost is actually a flesh and blood bad man, usually hiding behind a mask. The ultimate reason why the Scooby Doo movie failed (well there's lots of other reasons but this is the main one) was that they completely effed up the classic plotline structure. They disregarded what made a Scooby story a Scooby story.

I'm not saying Buffy's writing is quite as transparent as a Scooby cartoon, but there are ongoing patterns throughout the series which the writers have used in the past to great effect but in more recent seasons they've been 'experimenting' and the results have been lackluster.

I want to believe the writers are leading us down a path of assumption. They want us to believe that the Big Bad is really THE First Evil and Buffy can't win because there's nothing tangible there to fight. I want to hope that in actuality we'll learn there's something more concrete that Buffy can actually combat against. Otherwise, in the season finale the actual combat scenes will have no real meaning. At best, they'll reach a stalemate. In the past season finales, there's almost always a sacrifice that must be made.

In season one Buffy had to die in order to come back and win. In season two she had to sacrifice the man she loved to close the portal. In season three, the Scoobies had to sacrifice their alma mater. In season four, Buffy selflessly gave up complete control of her own self in order to achieve greatness. In season five, she almost sacrificed her newfound sister, but instead, again, sacrificed her own life in order to close Glory's rift that threatened to destroy the entire universe.

In season six the sacrifice was Tara, who had become a close and dear friend for Buffy, someone with whom she could share the loss of her mother, and someone with whom she could share her tears over Spike, when she could turn to no one else. However, this is where the finale fell flat, because the order of plot elements was purposefully askew, and Buffy didn't quite react to the loss of Tara as she did the loss of other past sacrifices. Further, the real pain was in Willow. It's as if the writers of Buffy are self-conscious about the very patterns and themes that they've developed over the years and are purposefully trying to take similar elements but utilize them in very different ways. The results in season six were not quite as dazzling as they might have hoped, and perhaps that's ultimately why so many remember season six not very fondly. Not just the finale, but the entire season seemed to lack focus at points.

In season six, the sacrifice was the catalyst for events, and the rest of the season finale felt like falling action. There was nowhere to go from a writing standpoint, and only the cute "Crayon Breaky Willow" speech by Xander saved the day. Though this was adorable, it was quite the anticlimactic ending.

It's an ongoing theme of the series. Buffy has to lose something in order to win. However, what more is there left for Buffy to sacrifice? What has she not already had to release in order to achieve success against the forces of evil? Where can the writers go? She has either literally or metaphorically lost a piece or all of herself countless times. The writers must find something that is tangible, both for the sacrifice, and for the target that the slayer must take down.

And in the past there's been another important element. The Big Bad. A creature with great power but with an Achilles' heel that Buffy's gang only needed to discover in order to take the Goliath down. In season one it was The Master. Though he was a tough, near UberVampire, Buffy was able to take him down. In season two the baddie was Angeles, whose Achilles' heel was his counterpart Angel. In season three the Big Bad was The Mayor, who turned out to still have a human weakness of vanity after he achieved Ascension. Then there was season four, with the most obvious example. Adam was the ultimate combination of demon, human and machine. However, his power source was his Achilles' heel. Season five's Glory had the Achilles' heel of Ben - her human side.

Then again with season six. Warren was potentially the Big Bad, but he didn't quite cut it. However, Willow had to turn evil in order to take him down, and this ultimately became like the Old Lady who ate the spider to swallow the fly. The rest of the season finale dealt with pulling Willow back from the brink. Again, the writers moved all their plot elements around and the result was not quite what they had hoped.

If they make either the Sacrifice or the Target too vague, as they're doing right now, the season finale won't have the needed impact to put a solid and conslusive stamp of "Ah HA!" on a splendid seven years of television. They can't go out on a whimper. It's gotta be a bang.

[> [> [> Unless the First Evil isn't the personification of ALL evil -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:58:49 01/18/03 Sat

It has been referred to as the creator of evil, or simply the first of the many evils that would come. The question then becomes whether or not you can have evil be seperate from the First Evil. And, even if the First is evil personified, it might be possible to stop it from taking form as a shapeshifting entity.

Also, it was mentioned that the First didn't have the power to do what it's doing now until a disturbance happened in the line of the Slayers. If this is true, it might be possible to simply reverse the disturbance, making the First Evil powerless.

So it can still be the First Evil they're dealing with but still leave them room to defeat it.

[> [> [> Re: The Sacrifice and The Target -- wiscoboy, 05:37:47 01/19/03 Sun

Just a comment on the S7 sacrifice which you speak of. If this is truly the last season of BTVS, then I would speculate the only other sacrifice to be made would be that Buffy somehow earns the right to give up her slayerness forever, making her the "normal" girl she always wanted to be in the earlier seasons. Hopefully this will not involve a 3rd death, as I would be highly dissappointed in M.E. for that writers' block laziness. Even if S7 does not end the series, the decision she makes(if given one) could be used to determine whether the series lives on with SMG/Buffy or spinned-off into something else without her.

[> [> Limits to First's power -- cjc36, 07:35:44 01/19/03 Sun

I think that, while this entity calling itself The First may in fact be the real deal, caveats and provisos may exist that limit its power.

Limitations The First has already shown: It isn't corporeal. If it is in essence the top evil in the universe, being solid would seem to be a minor "dark miracle." But that's just a gut reaction on my part and isn't supported by any knowledge of gods or demons. Just a feeling. If it can't be solid, what else * can't * it do?

And there could be advantages lying around the Scoobies-- where's this season's version of the Troll Hammer?

I do think this thing could be the ultimate bad. Heck, after seven years, why not? But I also have no reason to believe that Joss and pals cannot construct a coherent arc that ends with the good guys (for the most part) victorious. And each season's Big Bad seemed at mid-season to be absolutely the most unstoppable thing ever. This is no different, really. Now if this is The First and one or both shows make it to next year, literally, Where do You Go from Here, from battling what is essentially a version of the Devil? Some random vampire master wouldn't cut it anymore. But as things look now - as far as B:tVS is concerned - that would be a good problem to have.

[> [> [> Where could they go from here? -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:35:07 01/19/03 Sun

I'm thinking that, if there is an eighth season of BtVS, a good Big Bad would be the living personification of the Hellmouth (or the demons beyond the Hellmouth, whichever you prefer). I speculated it could be the Big Bad of this season during the summer. I just think it would be really cool to have the Scoobies battling the Hellmouth, the force behind every demon, vampire, and monster in Sunnydale.

Also, what did you mean by: "Where do You Go from Here, from battling what is essentially a version of the Devil? Some random vampire master wouldn't cut it anymore. But as things look now - as far as B:tVS is concerned - that would be a good problem to have."

[> Re: Is FE flesh or fear? -- Quentin Collins, 05:28:27 01/19/03 Sun

This is a very interesting line of thought. I have always felt that the Harbingers were not given enough credit. Given that they are supposedly the "priests" of the First Evil, an interesting question arises. Did their god (the FE) create them or did they create it? Who is really in control here?

In "Amends" it seemingly required a ritual involving chanting for the FE to manifest. While we haven't seen any Harbingers doing this sort of chanting this season, it doesn't mean that it is not taking place somewhere offscreen. After Buffy interrupted their ritual in that episode, the FE did not manifest for very long before it disappeared.

Other than the fact that they are the priests of the FE, we have never really learned much about them. Are they demons or humans who have been corrupted and altered in some sort of magical ritual? What is their true agenda? Who are their leaders? How long have they existed and what do they do when we don't see them? And how did they develop such good fighting skills in the last few years?

While the Scoobies for the most part have believed the hype about the FE, Anya did not seem very impressed with it. She is the person who fled town when the Mayor was going to Ascend and yet she was not very afraid of the FE. Very often she is correct despite herself and she may be again.

I still can't help but feel that something else IS going on somewhere behind the scenes.

[> Don't believe the hype -- Celebaelin, 07:36:55 01/19/03 Sun

First off a word of thanks to Zachsmind for another thought provoking post, mud or otherwise.

So, the nature of Evil, sufficiently unfathomable that it's a topic of discussion that will surely never be fully explored. However, we are presented with an alleged First Evil, fundamental and primordial, the defining principle for all other evils (including the 837th evil who is responsible for ensuring that all naval lint world wide is blue, how unfathomable is that?). Can we analyse and deduce anything about this alleged First Evil? It is claiming that it was around to hear the silence before the F in Fiat Lux but what was it doing? Enjoying the peace and quiet? Is the nature of evil not, in fact, more to do with action than thought? If this is not the case then all law enforcement officers world wide are more evil than the *perpetrators* they apprehend since in order to catch a wrongdoer one must by definition be able to out-think him/her/(it!) on the chosen territory, ie that of evil, in other words "first know your opponent", but alas, I have wondered somewhat from my thrust. To continue, if what the FE claims (or implies) is true then the creation of the universe was the facilitating event which allowed evil to occur, but why? Prior to that we must assume that the FE was spending its' (pre)time scratching its' non-corporeal butt in between catching a few Zs, not that I want to get all John Lennon Imagine but if there is nothing material, not even life, and the other entities whose existence you may be aware of in some unspecified manner are essentially incorporeal personifications of abstract concepts then the opportunity for evil-doing is, to be blunt, non-existent. The nature of evil as we understand it, I would contend, is intimately associated with materiality, with one exception, LIES.

This raises an interesting conundrum. If the FE is telling the TRUTH and it was present BEFORE the creation of the universe brought forth chaos (presumably from total order, though I would welcome any clarification on this point) then the only principle it could represent which would have any meaning prior to that point is that of UNTRUTH, which would seem to indicate that in order to further its' own aims it must tell lies (the biggest lie possible being 'the universe is not going to end because of this'). On the other hand if it is lying about its' origins then it depends upon the continuence of sentient life to achieve its' own furtherment. Life however does not require the presence of the FE in order to be quite happily going about its' own business of replicating DNA in accordance with creative principle.

I have now thought myself into believing that the FE is lying about its' origins and that its' actions are totally consistent with causing the *mischief* that is evil that will not destroy all sentient life, its' objective is to make all life (and co-incidentally unlife) evil, to corrupt, its' a classic. I would think therefore that whilst there may indeed be no way in which the FE can be destroyed or dispowered (other than by ending all sentient life) the way to defeat it is *simply* to not be evil, whatever the cost of that may be on a personal or material level. In a sense the FE is present in everybody, all the time, and the fight never ends until you die, or give in, or both.

By George, I think I've got it! Series 7 may be worth a look after all. If I'm unaware of any salient facts please let me know.

Y'am awryte?

C

PS Maybe the FE isn't really that evil after all, its' just totally racked off that its' been woken up by all this banging and crashing and it just want's everybody to keep the noise down. Of course the real pain in the ass was waiting for sentience to evolve in a species clever enough and gullible enough to be brought over to evil as a life(!)style.

[> [> 838th evil = God of misplaced apostrophes -- Celebaelin, 07:39:56 01/19/03 Sun

[> [> Re: Don't believe the hype -- cjc36, 07:48:20 01/19/03 Sun

You may have something with the 'don't be evil' thing. One must question where the human emotional livestock is located for The First to feed? If its just the Scoobies (and the SITs), then they could purge themselves with meditation and action. But if its Sunnydale, Cali, or the WHOLE FRIGGIN' WORLD, then making everybody hug won't work.

I do think there is reasoning behind it being just The Scoobies-- and that is the location and their collective past history with the Hellmouth. The First is perhaps emanating from the seals, like a small trickle of unimaginable malevolence, but only really can affect/feed off of the evil of Sunnydale folks. Perhaps that's why FE isn't solid - yet!

Gosh, this spec is making me head hurt! But I do it every year. I have plot-guessing issues. I'm aware of that.

[> [> [> Homage to Sauron? -- BEV, 10:49:44 01/19/03 Sun

I can imagine a scenario wherein, the FE, in Tolkien fashion is really using these mind games to divert the SG whilst it searches for some thing, some trinket, a Ring perhaps, that will give it Corporeal form. Consider these lines from the LOTR films:

Galadriel: "Darkness crept back into the forests of the world. Rumor grew of a Shadow in the east, whispers a nameless fear, and the Ring of Power perceived its time had now come."

Gandalf: "No, Frodo. The spirit of Sauron endured. His life force is bound to the Ring, and the Ring survived. Sauron has returned. His Orcs have multiplied. His fortress of Barad-d�r is rebuilt in the land of Mordor. Sauron needs only this Ring to cover all the lands of a second darkness. He is seeking it. Seeking it always. All his thought is bent on it. The Ring yearns above all else to return to the hand of its master. They are one, the Ring and the Dark Lord. Frodo, he must never find it."

Saruman: "Sauron has regained much of his former strength. He cannot yet take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of its potency. Concealed within his fortress, the Lord of Mordor sees all. His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth and...flesh. You know of what I speak, Gandalf. A great Eye, lidless. Wreathed in flame."

Gandalf: "The Eye of Sauron."

Saruman: "He is gathering all evil to him. Very soon he will summon an army great enough to launch an assault upon Middle Earth."

These could all apply to the FE. A dark force, gathering all evil to himself, searching for something that, presumably (as Saruman hints), could make him Corporeal once more.

The most deliecious possibility tht I can envision is if the FE, who has already briefly possesed Will, is successful in possessing Buffy.

A Dark Buffy would be the ultimate big bad. And because she would still be living, and Faith is still living, no Slayer could be called to fight her. It would take the Scoobes, the Coven, and Spike, and perhaps the demon community of Sunnydale in an uncomfortable alliance, to stop her. Or maybe they could figure a way to spring Faith from the big house and throw in with her.

[> [> [> [> Re: Homage to Sauron? -- masjio, 17:05:18 01/19/03 Sun

I like the idea of a dark Buffy--however it is done-

Especially since there might be a hint to that since in Lessons, The FE turns into Buffy last. It turns into the thing that came before. Warren to Glory, to Adam to Mayor to Dru, to Master--to Buffy the slayer--(First slayer connection)
Possibility of the First Evil and the Slayer being one and the same

Thats probably all mallarky though---but definatly cool idea concerning a dark Buffy--though maybe sort of unoriginal

Question:
What exactly does the FE plan on doing after it kills buffy---There's still a slayer and things just go back to normal---or will she just kill the whole world through deception? How can it hurt anyone any other way?

[> [> [> The FE is a Trilloch? Cool! (in an extreme dorkitude AD&D[TM] kinda way) -- Celebaelin, 18:59:35 01/19/03 Sun

Question about Angel on season 3 Buffy -- Tess, 20:38:09 01/18/03 Sat

I was watching season 3 with a friend tonight and it struck me as odd that Angel would have continued to live in the mansion given all the evil he'd done there as Angelus in Season two. She thought maybe he didn't remember what he'd done since he'd been in hell for a century or two. But the key to his curse is that he does remember the evil he did as Angelus, and he seemed uncomfortable when Gile's name was mentioned. So does anyone else have any speculation on why Angel would have continued to live in the mansion throughout season three (other than it was a magnificent set) even past the time he was strong enough to find another place?

[> penance and self-loathing, perhaps -- Flo, 22:10:42 01/18/03 Sat

Assuming that Angel remembers what he did while living in the mansion as Angelus, and assuming he feels bad about it -- it may be that he remains there because he is resigned to his curse. He believes he deserves to suffer. In fact, I can't think of a time, at least on BtVS, that Angel did anything to avoid wallowing in his guilt and self-loathing. I think he remains there because he is resigned to suffering with the memories of what he has been. Come to think of it, he is quite the martyr -- my mother could take lessons from him! :)

[> Re: Question about Angel on season 3 Buffy -- Q, 02:06:00 01/19/03 Sun

I think it was 100 % set logistics. If anything, he should have went back to that cool as hell apartment from season 1. It never made any sense to me either. It was probably just easy to leave that set be instead of re work something else.

[> [> character choice versus set logistics -- ZachsMind, 14:10:58 01/19/03 Sun

I think it's a combination of the two actually. Reports indicate they purposefully dismantled Spike's set at the start of this season, not wanting I suppose even the temptation to return to that set. However they didn't do that in season three for Angel, so since they had the set there, they used it.

This is also one of the many subtle ways in which the writers are opting to show differences between how Angel deals with his soul and how Spike deals with it. So it could also have been a character choice back in season three, to show that Angel has resigned himself to his anguish and torture, because of the curse. Never a moment's peace & happiness or he might lose his soul again. Spike doesn't have that limitation.

However, this might mean that Joss knew he would one day give Spike his soul back, and I don't think Joss thinks that many years ahead. He has said he structured most seasons assuming each to be the last.

This does make me question the Oz/Tara thing though. I believe had Seth Green never left the show, eventually Whedon would have written it so that Willow lost Oz, and went ballistic. However when Green left, Whedon had to reorganize his plot structure with Tara, and go a couple years building her relationship with Willow so that when he killed her off there'd be an emotional weight so Willow would go ballistic then. If that's the case, then Whedon does plan many years ahead, so the issue with Angel's set in season three compared to Spike's set in season seven may have been a writer's choice very early in the series.

To think that Whedon plans that far ahead, it's a little ..disturbing?

[> [> [> How far ahead Joss plans... -- Rob, 15:53:09 01/19/03 Sun

None of us can say for sure, but to add another to the list of things planned way in advance...Dawn! The whole little sister/7-3-0 thing from "Graduation Day II" at the end of the third season. Dawn of course did not appear until the beginning of the fifth. And the 7-3-0 countdown question wasn't resolved until The Gift, at the end of the fifth.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: How far ahead Joss plans... -- amber, 23:56:33 01/19/03 Sun

>And the 7-3-0 countdown question wasn't resolved until The >Gift, at the end of the fifth.

I may just be tired right now, but I can't remember, how was the 7-3-0 thing explained by "The Gift"?

Just curious...

[> [> [> [> [> I don't know about 7-3-0 but, -- Briar Rose, 01:10:19 01/20/03 Mon

Restless was foreshadowing "The Gift" and Season 3's "7- 3 - 0" was referencing Dawn. So in a way, "7-3-0" foreshadowed "The Gift" as well.... I would also like the exact line amber was refering, because I love all the hindsight that I missed. There are lots of things that I miss.

Actually - I have always believed in my heart of hearts that Joss has had the story in place from beginning to end since Buffy The Movie was written.*S* And that sometimes the changes are ONLY made like in the case of Oz, where Seth Green was no longer available. Joss used a writer's card trick on that - because in "The Wish" and "dopplegangland" VampWillow's bi-sexuality was also available for use as "foreshadowing after the fact" of Willow's bi-sexuality - which was brilliant! Giles leaving ONLY because ASH was so longing for his home - so Joss was not even fazed, he just changed the story to get himself and the character of Giles out of the jam. But in a way - it was also another pulling a card, because Giles had been trying to reconnect with his ex-lover (That beautiful African-Briton.. Ack! what's her name?) and to try and find a way to work with updating the CoW's methods in past seasons, so ME used it and worked it into a type of foreshadowing afterwards.

Saying that he writes every season as if it was the last doesn't mean he doesn't have more story to tell, IMO. It just means that he understands the quality of the story is what is important to him, but that in TV it is about ratings, not quality. So he aims to be sure that as MUCH of his story is told in the best way possible, so he's happy even if the network pulls the rug out from under him.

I can actually trace my gut feeling on how far ahead Joss actually plans his story to the announcement about "Fray" a couple years back. Joss actually had not only thought out the beginning to "Fray" long before it was written, but also planned the end of Buffy to coincide with his ideas about the beginning of Fray's story.

There are also too many foreshadowings in BtVS's first four or five seasons that are just coming to pass in Angel season 4 and Buffy Season 7 to be overlooked. I'd love to be able to tour JW's mind, because I think that he has storylines for the next 20 years for an assortment of shows, with and without Angel, Buffy and Fray, and that they all tie together somehow.....

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't know about 7-3-0 but, -- Peggin, 05:08:17 01/20/03 Mon

7-3-0 was first mentioned in the dream Buffy shared with Faith in Graduation Day, Part II, it was something about "counting down to 7-3-0" and it was a reference to the season five season finale -- two years later, or 365 days + 365 days = 730 days. So, counting down to 7-3-0 was a countdown of how many days Buffy had left to live.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I always thought -- Rahael, 05:30:03 01/20/03 Mon

that it counted down to the moment when Glory would bleed Dawn and destroy the universe - no one actually expected Buffy to die, so it couldn't count down to that. Faith and Buffy's dream introduced the idea of Dawn, of time ticking down (which is bound up with the name 'dawn', the point whre night dies and day is born. Obviously, the metanarrative was counting down to Buffy's death.

It was another way in which BtVS challenges the idea of prophecy and fate - in Buffy's prophetic dream, later on, Faith and Buffy make a bed - which has resonances of 'make your bed, and lie in it'. Of fate, of events which can be foretold. But Buffy's decision cannot be foretold, and is a triumph of agency. So it's almost a counterpoint to what seems to be the inevitability of sacrifice - no matter what Buffy does to prevent it, Dawn still ends up on the tower, bleeding and cutting the Universe. But Buffy still defies it, just as she did in Prophecy Girl, proving that there is more to the world than foretold events, and that prophecy never tells you the whole story.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Miles to go... counting down to 7-3-0 -- Peggin, 05:59:05 01/20/03 Mon

I'm pretty sure 7-3-0 was specifically counting down to Buffy's death, and not just to Glory cutting Dawn. The exact line in the dream was, "Miles to go - Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0." "Miles to go" is a reference to the Robert Frost poem, Stopping By Woods On A Snowy Evening and final verse is:

The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

This is widely considered to be a poem about death. "I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep," means that I have a lot of things to do before I'll be ready to die. It's saying that Buffy has a lot of things she'll have to do before she dies, but a countdown had begun of her final 730 days.

I guess the "Little Miss Muffet" part could imply that the dream is talking about Dawn, but "miles to go" was specifically talking about someone's death and Dawn wasn't the one who had two years to live. In fact, Dawn wasn't even alive yet when Buffy had that dream, so I don't think there's any way that the dream was supposed to be about counting down the last 730 days of Dawn's life.

Besides, even if *we* didn't know that Buffy was going to die, Joss did when he wrote that line.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> 'The darkest evening of the year' (unspoiled spec for S7), spoilers for aired S7 eps -- Rahael, 07:03:10 01/20/03 Mon

Besides, even if *we* didn't know that Buffy was going to die, Joss did when he wrote that line.

Yes, I've thought hard about this, having read your post. I've just always assumed that 730 referred to the final ep and Buffy's dilemma, not her death. The dilemma will lead to her death.....my reluctance to say it more baldly than that is because of the way I see fate and 'prophecy' working in the Buffyverse

I tend to think that Joss undercuts the idea (eg PG), but I know it's pretty easy to argue that no one can escape - they just move inevitably toward their tragedy or their triumph. Faith never could have a choice - she was doomed to murder, to turn to evil and go to prison. Buffy's victories always are inevitable.

In a way, of course it is, since these are only characters controlled by Joss. He decides - they act.

I think 730 counts down to a significant moment - and while Buffy's heart would inevitably tell her the truth, and she would inevitably act, Faith's comments are riddle, not a prophecy - Buffy says "Great. Riddles". She solves the riddle by the time 730 comes down, so the riddle tells us the problem, and the solution - Buffy's death. 730, imho is the problem, and Miles to Go points the way to the solution.

Especially because Buffy says "a higher power guiding us?" and Faith replies "I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant"

I like it better that Buffy acts unexpectedly to solve a terrible dilemma, a dilemma which was foretold. I like to think that the 'Miles to Go' part is a foreshadowy comment about Buffy's death. Since I like it better that way, that's the way I view the ep. The foreshadowyness of Buffy substituting herself for Dawn is also there because Buffy and Faith are both in Hospital because Buffy tried to use Faith's blood to revive Angel's. She even cuts her stomach, just as Glory cuts Dawn. Buffy then has to use her own blood instead. Her blood can substitute, just as it can in the Gift.

I guess the "Little Miss Muffet" part could imply that the dream is talking about Dawn, but "miles to go" was specifically talking about someone's death and Dawn wasn't the one who had two years to live.

Miles to go

I think the use of this poem (2nd time in BtVS) works beautifully in a number of ways. It refers to Buffy's responsibilities (promises to keep - referring to Buffy's promise to the dying Joyce). It refers to Buffy's underlying longing for death (the woods look lovely, dark and deep), which is a theme that grows more predominant after she is ressurrected, and it hints at the possibility of a peaceful ending for Buffy.

I also like to think that the snow imagery in the poem adds even more layers to it - because we have "Amends" earlier that season, where Angel wants to give into his wish for death, and for peace. And Buffy tells him to keep on fighting. And it's the snow that solves Angel's dilemma.

(Indeed, there's some pretty familiar lines in Amends - Angel says "I can't become a killer", and in The Gift, it's Buffy's aversion to killing her sister that leads her to her death. - Buffy says to Angel "I killed you and it didn't help", reminding us that Angel was once called the "Key".

and

Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do
it together.

Sounds pretty much like "the hardest thing is living", to me)

The poem also says that this is the 'darkest evening of the year', and we also get that familiar line "it's always darkest before Dawn", so in a way, that poem ties in beautifully to Buffy and Dawn, and even Angel.

Isn't it also interesting that it's in Amends that we first meet the FE? And there's some thematic links in Amends pointing toward the countdown to 730? Isn't it also interesting that if there's a disruption in the Slayer Line, it was the answer to the riddle which might have caused it?

(Quotes courtesy of Psyche)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'The darkest evening of the year' (unspoiled spec for S7), spoilers for aired S7 eps -- Darby, 07:26:26 01/20/03 Mon

Not much to add, except that I see it as being about Choices. The connection between what Buffy does to Faith to save her Great Love and what is needed with Dawn to save the World seems the choice she makes with Faith (even if it doesn't work and she must sacrifice herself) she could make with Dawn but doesn't.

And does it have anything to do with the other two characters being reflections of Buffy: the Road Not Taken? Again, choices, with Faith choosing to use her powers for herself and Dawn being non-Chosen Buffy.

I think I'm starting to stretch this too far...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Choices -- Rahael, 07:39:16 01/20/03 Mon

I think that's a pretty insightful comment, Darby!

And I'd like to think that with Season 7, Joss will tie up all the lose metaphorical threads of Seasons Past.

(and you know, when you're talking to me, there's no such thing as 'stretching too far'. That's why I'm too scared to annotate any more!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'The darkest evening of the year' (unspoiled spec for S7), spoilers for aired S7 eps -- Peggin, 07:54:21 01/20/03 Mon

That's a really good point about the choices we make. You could even take it a little further -- Buffy was willing to sacrifice Faith to save Angel because it was Faith's own choices that put Angel's unlife in jeopardy. OTOH, Buffy was unwilling to sacrifice Dawn to save the world because (1) Dawn had done nothing to put the world in jeopardy and (2) Dawn was actually willing to die to save the world.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Choices, Frost before Dawn and Power -- Angela, 13:56:09 01/20/03 Mon

Wonderful little subthread. Buffy ultimately retains faith in the human spirit and chooses love and self-sacrifice. Later after inspiring rebirth in a second souless spirit, she chooses Dawn (a new beginning) and to live life.

Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.
Robert Frost, Comment

Love at the lips was touch
As sweet as I could bear;
And once that seemed too much;
I lived on air

To Earthward by Robert Frost (1874-1963)

**"But the men who question power make a contribution just as indispensable, especially when that questioning is disinterested. For they determine whether we use power or power uses us."

Acquainted with the Night
I have stood still and stopped the sound of feet
When far away an interrupted cry
Came over houses from another street,
But not to call me back or say good-bye;
And further still at an unearthly height,
One luminary clock against the sky
Proclaimed the time was neither wrong nor right.
I have been one acquainted with the night.

Acquainted with the Night

**"And because he knew the midnight as well as the high noon, because he understood the ordeal as well as the triumph of the human spirit, he gave his age strength with which to overcome despair."

Which is also something we can say of Buffy. Having known the ordeal, death and despair of spirit, she makes the choice once more to to live and is now lending not just her physical strength but her strength of spirit in overcoming despair.

The light of heaven falls whole and white
And is not shattered into dyes,
The light forever is morning light;
The hills are verdured pasture-wise;
The angle hosts with freshness go,
And seek with laughter what to brave;--
And binding all is the hushed snow
Of the far-distant breaking wave.

And the more loitering are turned
To view once more the sacrifice
Of those who for some good discerned
Will gladly give up paradise.
And a white shimmering concourse rolls
Toward the throne to witness there
The speeding of devoted souls
Which God makes his especial care.

Nor is there wanting in the press
Some spirit to stand simply forth,
Heroic in it nakedness,
Against the uttermost of earth.

The Trial by Existence

She gave up the thought of paradise; her last trial being more one of existence. I'm very curious to see where Joss is going with the threads this year especially if he's choosing to wrap up his tale of this slayer. I wish I had time to write more; but a big thank you for the thoughts on Buffy and Frost and the resonance with Joss who never fails to ask about the big questions. :-)

'Fred, where is north?'
'North? North is there, my love.
The brook runs west.'
'West-running Brook then call it.'
(West-Running Brook men call it to this day.)
'What does it think it's doing running west
When all the other country brooks flow east
To reach the ocean? It must be the brook
Can trust itself to go by contraries
The way I can with you -- and you with me --
Because we're -- we're -- I don't know what we are.
What are we?'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'Speaking of contraries, see how the brook
In that white wave runs counter to itself.
It is from that in water we were from
Long, long before we were from any creature.
Here we, in our impatience of the steps,
Get back to the beginning of beginnings,
The stream of everything that runs away.
Some say existence like a Pirouot
And Pirouette, forever in one place,
Stands still and dances, but it runs away,
It seriously, sadly, runs away
To fill the abyss' void with emptiness.
It flows beside us in this water brook,
But it flows over us. It flows between us
To separate us for a panic moment.
It flows between us, over us, and with us.
And it is time, strength, tone, light, life and love-
And even substance lapsing unsubstantial;
The universal cataract of death
That spends to nothingness -- and unresisted,
Save by some strange resistance in itself,
Not just a swerving, but a throwing back,
As if regret were in it and were sacred.
It has this throwing backward on itself
So that the fall of most of it is always
Raising a little, sending up a little.
Our life runs down in sending up the clock.
The brook runs down in sending up our life.
The sun runs down in sending up the brook.
And there is something sending up the sun.
It is this backward motion toward the source,
Against the stream, that most we see ourselves in,
The tribute of the current to the source.
It is from this in nature we are from.
It is most us.'

WEST-RUNNING BROOK

**"At bottom he held a deep faith in the spirit of man. And it's hardly an accident that Robert Frost coupled poetry and power. For he saw poetry as the means of saving power from itself. "

**Less than a month before his assassination, President John F. Kennedy spoke at Amherst College in honor of Robert Frost. All words in " " are from that speech.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Everything about 7-3-0 that ya need to know plus some... -- ZachsMind, 18:14:29 01/20/03 Mon

"Some fans figured it out," Whedon said. "Seven, three, oh is exactly two years in days. Two years until the next climax."

Little Miss Muffet was about Dawn. Joss Whedon pointedly brought that fact out when, in Real Me:

GUY: (sobbing) Please, make it stop. (in a different tone) Shut up, shut up, they'll hear you!
DAWN: (tries to call out) Buff- (Shrieks as the guy puts his finger on her lips)
GUY: I know you. Curds and whey. (Dawn looks shocked) I know what you are. (slowly and ominously) You ... don't ... belong ... here.
Dawn shakes her head, looks on the verge of tears. Blackout.

Glory also made a reference to a "tuffet" in "No Place Like Home."

In Graduation Day, The 7-3-0 was a countdown to the season five finale. Whether it was specifically about Buffy's death is a matter of conjecture. The bed was a reference to the events of Slayers past present & future, and how both Faith & Buffy made their bed they were gonna lie in it. There was a cat on the bed at one point. A big cat. Not sure what that was about.

Cut to Buffy walking through Faith's apartment her arms crossed in front of her. There are cardboard boxes stacked everywhere. Buffy stops and sees a cat jump up on Faith's bed.
Buffy: "Who's going to look after him?"
Faith: "It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?" walks up behind Buffy and stops next to her.
Buffy: "A higher power guiding us?"
Faith looks at her then turns away and keeps walking towards the camera: "I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant."
Buffy looking down: "There's something I'm supposed to be doing."
Faith: "Oh yeah. - Miles to go - Little Ms. Muffet counting down from 7-3-0."
Buffy grimaces: "Great. - Riddles."
Faith standing in front of the broken window looking out: "Sorry, it's my head. A lot of new stuff."
Buffy looks at her with a half smile. The cat on the bed turns for a split second into the image of a girl (Faith?) laying on the bed in white gown at the same time as Faith still looking out the broken window says: "They are never going to fix this, are they?"
Buffy concerned: "What about you?"
Faith turns around and gestures at her head: "Scar tissue. It fades. It all fades."
Buffy looks down with a frown. For a split second Faith's bloody knife appears in the palm of her hand.
Faith as Buffy looks back up: "You want to know the deal? Human weakness - never goes away. Not even his."
Buffy with a half smile: "Is this your mind or mine?"
Faith with a short laugh: "Beats me." Buffy gives a little laugh in return and looks down. Faith walks towards her: "Getting towards that time."
Buffy looks at all the boxes and the weapons laid out on the table beside her: "How are you going to fit all this stuff?"
Faith: "Not gonna. It's yours."
Buffy: "I can't use all of this!"
Faith: "Just take what you need. (reaches her right hand up to touch Buffy's cheek) "You're ready?"
Flash to white and to Buffy waking up in the hospital. She gets out of bed and slowly walks over to where Faith lies. She looks down at her then softly kisses her forehead.

Faith's knife had blood on it. Faith's Blood. Buffy stuck it in her gut. I still believe this dream somehow means that Dawn is the daughter not of just Buffy, but both Buffy & Faith. Faith told Buffy to take what she needed.

In Restless there was a bed that was not made.

BUFFY: Faith and I just made that bed.
(Shot of the bed, still rumpled but now without Buffy in it.)
TARA: (offscreen) For who?
(Buffy frowns, looks to her left.)
BUFFY: I thought you were here to tell me.

Also interesting about that episode is just before the above mentioned scene, ANYA is lying in Willow's college dorm bed. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Fade in on Buffy sleeping on the sofa, covered with a green blanket. We see that she still has the cut on her forehead that she got in "The Yoko Factor.")
ANYA: (whispers offscreen) Buffy! Wake up!)
(Buffy opens her eyes. She's lying on her bed in the dorm room, on her side, facing Willow's bed. The cut on her forehead is gone. She frowns.)
(Shot of Anya lying in Willow's bed, under the covers.)
ANYA: (whispers) Buffy, you have to wake up right away!
BUFFY: I'm not really in charge of these things. (Closes eyes)
ANYA: (anxious) Please wake up. Oh please.
BUFFY: (opens eyes) I need my beauty sleep. So stop it, okay? (Rolls over
onto her back)
(The creature is hanging from the ceiling above her. It snarls at her.)

It's my belief that at the end of season three there was a bed. Faith & Buffy made that bed. When Buffy called upon The First Slayer to help her with Adam, The First Slayer somehow unmade that bed. She wrote herself into Buffy's future. She gummed up the works. Remember how Glory drove her victims insane? Spike was talking very much like that the first part of this season. If Glory's just a god, what does that make The First Evil?

The Cheese Guy meant absolutely nothing. Allegedly. The word cheese has appeared in the first six seasons of Buffy a total of fifteen times.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Everything about 7-3-0 that ya need to know plus some... -- Darby, 20:39:40 01/20/03 Mon

In the first draft of Restless' Buffy dream (which is up at Psyche's), it was Willow in her own dorm bed. That, plus a lot else, changed by the final script - it's a fascinating read. Maybe with purpose, maybe just for logistics' sake.

http://www.studiesinwords.de/shooting/restlessdraft.html

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Riley asked Will for info on Buffy in s4 (before he really knew her) & Will said 'she likes cheese' -- Helen, 04:24:01 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I always thought -- Dochawk, 12:54:53 01/21/03 Tue

In the Jan 2002 SFX magazine there was an interview with SMG. She talks about the dream sequence with Faith. There she states she told Joss she didn't understand the dream sequence and Joss explained to her that the 730 was the days until her death in Season 5 and that Little Miss Muffett was Dawn (see SKs summary below about David Fury's comment). This was in February of the 3rd season. Joss said in an interview after the season 3 finale that he had "evil things" in store for Willow, so he had the idea for Willow going evil 3 years in advance. He also said he plot ideas for 11 seasons.

[> [> [> [> [> Not sure quite where this goes... -- Tchaikovsky, 08:56:51 01/20/03 Mon

I feel I should put this somewhere in the thread, and this seems as good a place as any.

While Rahael, Darby and Peggin's discussion is a lot more insightful, if you want the Joss version, (through Sarah Michelle Gellar), here it is: (direct source Masq's atpo site)

DW: When did you find out they were going to kill Buffy?

SMG: Joss [Whedon] told me about three years ago. Were shooting a scene where Faith [was comatose]. Buffy [had] tried to kill Faith, but she had lived. [Then]Buffy had a dream where Faith said something along the lines of "Counting down from 361, Little Miss Muffet..."I don't remember the exact riddle. I didn't understand it, as I often don't understand what Joss puts in sometimes. I went to him and said "Could you explain this?" and he said, "Sure, as long as you swear not to tell anyone. That was the exact number of days until the 100th episode and Little Miss Muffet was going to be Dawn, so Buffy was going to get a sister and then [that] day was going to be the day Buffy died (Sarah Michelle Geller [Buffy] Dreamwatch magazine, February 2002).

From this, it doesn't seem too likely that Gellar's really absorbed the idea, (the 361 thing is one hint), although to be honest we, in our obsession, probably expect rather too much. For this reason, I wouldn't claim that this is a particularly good insight to exactly the 730 event, but it seems like Buffy's death is what Gellar took from the conversation.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> I admit defeat! -- Rahael, 09:07:33 01/20/03 Mon

Bah. I know what's going to happen. Before S7 ends Joss is going to expressly approve every single thing I find most irksome about the Buffyverse. The last ep is going to be all about the importance of forgiveness, redemption and Buffy standing by her man. And then there'll be a miracle. Maybe Spike will ascend into heaven. They'll find this ancient scroll that fortells everything.

(And I was so pleased that I managed to fanwank the miracle snow into the snow of Robert Frost too!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now, defeatism will get you nowhere! -- Tchaikovsky, 09:24:08 01/20/03 Mon

Sarah Michelle Gellar seems to have at least an incomplete understanding of this stuff- and Joss has an incredible mind. All the things you and Darby have been writing are quite plausible in my opinion.

If something simpler had come directly from Joss, (like his quote about 'Amends', 'The snow was not evil! It was good. It was Hope.') then the white flag might be necessary, but as it stands, I would say that Buffy's ACTUAL death being the direct relation to 730 is at best quasi-canonical, (that sounds rather impressive!) It could be another specific event of 'The Gift'.

Keep fighting for the 'no destiny' thing. It's interesting.

TCH- now imagining his worst case scenario, but not wanting to share in fear of the backlash.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ooh! Now I'm intrigued! -- Rahael, 09:38:12 01/20/03 Mon

Tell, do!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Tchaikovsky, 11:46:14 01/20/03 Mon

I imagine this might be a little bit of a let-down now, but here goes

I would have a real problem with a situation in which one of the major characters who has been painted as constantly struggling against their dark side redeems themselves utterly by matyring themselves to the cause of good.

I have no problems with Doyle's matyrdom in 'Hero', because he's doing it entirely for the cause, and actually partly for the part of himself he sees inside the young half-demon he sees in the episode. I have no problem with Buffy, a Messianic figure in a dark universe, martyring herself for the world, and, simultaneously, for the thing she loves most in the world, Dawn.

But I would have a problem, (unless done with a stroke of genius), of a character who has been struggling to retain their humanity, ultiamtely winning a human respect in an inhuman way. Spike, Faith and Anya, all likely candidates for death in the upcoming battle, should NOT be matyred, and if so, it should NOT be shown in a positive life.

'Strong is living. Every day. It's hard'
Amends
'The hardest thing in this world is to live in it. Be Brave. Live in it.'
The Gift

I'd like to see that message played out.

Now everyone can disagree away.

TCH

PS Dawn being killed immediately after sleeping with Andrew, and Buffy finally realising that Clem is her true love would also gain places on the podium, but it's only the main one which I can see happening.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well... -- Peggin, 12:06:36 01/20/03 Mon

I don't want to see a big redemptive death for any of those people either, and for exactly the reasons you stated -- they should redeem themselves by living, not by dying.

Oddly, however, I liked the way they handled Darla dying so that she could give her child life. For some reason, that worked for me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed -- Rahael, 13:55:22 01/20/03 Mon

I have a personal dislike of the glorification of martyrdom. Actually, having looked at Amends again - I'm liking it a lot. A lot more than I realised. I need to revisit it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But as always ME was neutral on Darla's self sacrifice... -- Briar Rose, 14:40:33 01/20/03 Mon

Even though ultimatly it would seem that for once in her self absorbed life she choose to make a choice for another to live and not be selfish - it was bracketed with more truly Darla-esque lines.

Even when she finally made the choice, it was based more in "I can't DO this anymore. I am allergic to pain, it hurts me, and God forbid I have to actually take CARE of another life later." So her sacrifice was not so much actual martyrdom for the good of a Higher Power as much as a strange quirk of her selfishness coming into action to end what she perceived as bad for her whether it actually helped or hindered others good. As always, ME was leaving it open to interpretation and bending shades of gray in morality, destiny, fate and self empowerment.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But as always ME was neutral on Darla's self sacrifice... -- Dariel, 16:01:39 01/20/03 Mon

I don't think Darla killed herself because she didn't want the responsibility of a child. In the first place, Darla was in no position to care for a child, no matter what she might have wanted. Darla knew that once the child was out of her, she would no longer be influenced by it's soul, and no longer would love it. Even if she could have given birth "normally," Connor would have ended up a snack! As it was, Darla's vamp body wasn't capable of delivering a child. Darla staked herself, so she could die loving Connor, while allowing him to live.

I thought it was very moving. Darla wasn't martyred, or redeemed either. She just made a very personal decision to let her son live.

As for all of the bitching and moaning about being allergic to pain and the "get this thing out of me" bit--not so uncommon in the late stages of pregnancy!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heh. I wouldn't bet any money on the 'Buffy standing by her man' part. *smirk* -- ZachsMind, 18:18:44 01/20/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> another possibilty -- anom, 22:20:38 01/20/03 Mon

"From this, it doesn't seem too likely that Gellar's really absorbed the idea, (the 361 thing is one hint), although to be honest we, in our obsession, probably expect rather too much."

Or maybe Joss changed it after they talked, esp. given what shadowkat says below about what things have & haven't been planned ahead. On the other hand, the part about the 100th ep makes it seem like it had to be 730 from the beginning. Unless they were just thinking 1 season ahead at 1st.

[> [> [> Jumping into the fray - musings on logistics, writers intents, etc -- shadowkat, 20:26:12 01/20/03 Mon

(And if I'm lucky no one will see it b/c my post will be lost at the bottom of all the cool subthreads. ;-) But I'm bored tonight...so here it goes.)

First off: Joss Whedon planning ahead? According to interviews and the DVD commentaries, he doesn't plan as far ahead as we think.

In Season 1 - he didn't really know much more than the main season arc and was sort of floundering on where to go.
He even states in some of the commentary I saw on casting in SEAson 5 DVD, that Angel was meant to be not much more than a bit player to begin with - but the great chemistry he exhibited with Gellar and his charismatic acting - motivated Joss and his writers to try to do more. By the end of the first season and the success of episodes such as the Pack, Angel, Prophecy Girl and Nightmares - Whedon got a good idea what to do in Season 2 and plotted out the arc from Season 2 - Season 5. He made changes to some threads:
One was the B/A thread - WB wanted a spin-off - so he decided to create a show for Angel and decided for whatever reason (there's all sorts of rumors) to bring Cordelia with him. This meant a little re-working of Seasons 4 and 3 in order to bring this about. Marti Noxon in interviews has stated that they had planned a lot more B/A agnst for Season 4 but it didn't work with the new Angel Series which needed to stand on it's own more. So to fill the slots left open by Cordelia's departure and Angel's they grabbed Spike. This was not pre-planned prior to Lover's Walk. Lover's Walk was supposed to be Spike and Dru, but Juliet was tied up in a movie so they just brought back Spike - not expecting much, but Whedon discovered how well Spike interacted with all the other members of the cast, noting the actor literally had chemistry with everyone and his character could bring out shades in everyone. So Whedon decided - direct quote from "Introducing Spike" on Season 4 DVD: "I knew I had to have him in the mix. No matter what. He really added something." But this did not happen until Lover's Walk. Also in Season 2 - Whedon had planned on Angelus killing off Spike and taking over his spot with Dru, but Spike was such a cool character - from the writers pov and had some much storyline potential - they decided to rewrite the episodes completely - ASH commented on this in interviews, and doing so did cost production time and money btw.

Moving on to some major changes in Season 4 - OZ had a huge story line planned. Tara was only meant to be a minor character and witchy friend of Willow's, Veruca's part was actually supposed to be much bigger - at least six episodes. But Seth Green had to leave - so they literally had to rework the entire arc. In Whedon's commentary for Hush he mentions how he had to rework everything and came up with the idea to make the "witchy friend" the new love interest for Willow. This was not pre-planned prior to two episodes before Hush, when Green left.

B/R arc - we were supposed to have a big storyline with Professor Walsh - who was supposed to be the Big bad of the season but Lindsey Crouse wasn't available and they had to kill her off early - this played havoc with the entire plan.

The things that were pre-planned according to the commentaries are the following:

1. Dawn - this was planned way back in Season 3, according to the Season 5 DVD commentaries on The Real Me, Spotlight on Dawn, and Story of Season 5. Gellar knew about it as far back as Restless - since she brought MT to the set to audition for the part at the time, Restless was being filmed. The one thing definitely foreshadowed in Restless is Dawn.

2. 730 - according to Joss Whedon's commentary in Season 5
DVD and Season 4 DVD - he says: "730 is the number of days until the final of Season 5 and Buffy's death." Direct quote. Personally I agree with Rahael's take on the metaphor's - I don't believe the rhyme meant that Buffy was prophesied to die. OTOH the poem is "there's miles to go before I sleep" (taken probably from the poem by Robert Frost and the film Telefon, which I think Whedon probably remembers it from...any film geek would and ME are big film geeks) - in the film Telefon, the phrase means, once you finish your duty, you can die. It's a sleeper trigger.
In the Frost poem - I always interpreted it to mean - once I finish my journey I can be warm and rest. Since the poem is stated while both Buffy and Faith linger on the brink of death - Buffy half drained by Angel, Faith almost killed by buffy - the poem indicates that neither can die yet - there's miles to go before they sleep.

An image repeated in Buffy's Restless dream - with Buffy being woken up repeatedly, she wants to sleep, but she can't - she still has work to do.

Little Miss Muffet - Joss Whedon states is Dawn and David Fury reiterates it in his commentary for Real ME where he says I deliberately put curds and whey in there to metanarrate on it.

730 - is the time period before Dawn dies - it is Little Miss Muffet who is counting down to 730, not Buffy. Buffy has miles to go before she sleeps.

However in the writer's head - it also meant 730 was the amount of time till the end of the series. He planned in Season 3 to end the series on the 100th episode, because you need 100 episodes to make a good deal on sydication rights. So to him - he has 730 days before he could rest and end Btvs. So the rhyme means this: I, Joss Whedon, have miles to go before I sleep, 730 days to be exact...and Little miss Muffet is Dawn counting it down inside my head.

On the DVD Commentary - he states, when he figured out Season 5, he thought it would be the last, until the deal with UPN went through and he realized he had to do at least two more years.

Joss Whedon planned Joyce's death as early as Season 3/4 as well. He told Kristin Sutherland about it at the very beginning of Season 4, because she was leaving the country and wanted to be written out. So the Body was preplanned.

Riley's leaving was also preplanned. They knew about that as early as mid-Season 4, so Restless did foreshadow that and they allude to this in the commentary. But they didn't want the audience to know - so cooked up a fiendish plot to convince the actors and audience that Spike was leaving instead - hence the fake staking in Into The Woods.

The only Season 6 arc that were preplanned according to
Whedon as early as Season 4 were Willow's arc into dark magic. ASH's desire to leave came as a surprise they had to work around. Whedon decided to go with the - I don't want to do this anymore theme - because it echoed his own feelings at the time - I'm done but I'm not done.

Whedon like many writers tends to write from his own heart and soul (not in the religious sense, spirit if you don't believe in the soul term, hate semantics). Buffy often echoes himself.

Regarding sets? They don't have a large set to begin with so they tear stuff down when necessary. They also have limited funds. It's expensive to build a new set. So Angel's place of residence in season 2-3 stayed the same probably for production reasons not story reasons. When they moved into Season 4, they tore down the highschool sets and other sets to build the dorm rooms, Initiative, Xander's basement apartment, and Spike's crypt which if you watch carefully was very small in Seasons 4 and 5. They expanded it in Season 6 because they had no room to film in earlier seasons, too tight. In Season 7 - they tore it all down to make room for the new School and other sets. Remember limited room. So you break down the story and decide what works as set design.

Each season arc according to the writers is preplanned in the season before, they start figuring it out in the Spring. But the season itself is meant to be able to stand on its own. Even season 6, was largely meant to be this way.
Whedon doesn't want to leave his audience hanging like other shows. Individual episodes aren't pre-planned and character arcs may change as well, the only things pre-planned are main plot arcs - ie. who the big bad is and the main lead's emotional journey...and how the supporting characters fit within it. There's tons of flexibility, I'd imagine around that.

Metaphor wise - I agree with pretty much everything TCH and Rahael stated regarding the themes they are going for.
I think the show continues to go against the idea of "martydome and prophecy and fate" and is very much about setting our own destiny. Remember the creator is a rabid athesist. So Buffy's jump wasn't fated, Dawn's was - Buffy defied fate. Just as her friends defied fate, perhaps, by bringing her back and Spike defied fate by getting a soul, and Anya defied it by going back to vengeance then choosing to give it up. So whatever they do in the end, I can't imagine them doing anything that goes against the consistent theme of finding your own destiney and not giving up.

Not sure that added much. Interesting posts.

SK

[> [> [> [> Re: musings -- Angela, 05:25:08 01/21/03 Tue

It did, excellent post. I thought Marti's comments (thank you, Rufus) were particularly interesting in terms of Season 7 speculation. Reiterating Joss's atheism, yet saying at the heart of the show is belief, saying the foundation of the show is still Joss. I consider Marti to be a very intentional interviewee, and by that I mean that I don't think a whole lot comes out that's not meant to be there. :-)

[> [> [> [> Just one thought on this -- Tchaikovsky, 06:12:27 01/21/03 Tue

Excellent post. It never ceases to amaze me how you can take one thought and then riff off in all directions; with a remarkable combination of the freedom of a jazz saxophonist and attention to the relevance of each section of a great composer.

The thought which crossed my mind while reading this post was about how Buffy is a symbol for Joss in his universe. In the recent Marti Noxon interview that Angela mentions above, she also said that she thinks more and more that one of the themes of the show is how somebody goes about living when they are exceptional. She posited that Joss, an exceptional mind, one of the geniuses of his field, is represented by Buffy, one girl in all the world. Her struggle with being different, and all the precipitant consequences, (such as the superior/inferior dichotomy, the loss of her ability to love, and so forth), is relevant to Joss' struggle to be an exceptional auteur and storyteller on TV.

In this regard, your explanation of the lines:
'Oh yes
Miles to go
Little Miss Muffet
Counting Down from 7-3-0'
Makes even more sense. You parallel Whedon habing 'Miles to go before he sleeps', and say that Buffy does herself. You also bring up the point that the 100th episode was syndication point, and Joss thought it a good time to stop the series originally.

So, in a very real-life sense, Buffy's sacrifice is a sacrifice that, at a rather deep level of meaning, parallels Whedon's killing of the show. In jumping, Buffy is negating her exceptionality. She accepts that 'she doesn't know how to live in this world if there are these choices'. Eventually, she can save the world be killing herself.

In the same way, Whedon believes, at the major arc level, that by the end of Season Five, killing off Buffy is the best thing for the Buffyverse. Buffy jumps off the tower to save the world, and Whedon jumps out of his Executive Chair, because he doesn't want to stretch any further. He has nothing left to say. He leaves the Buffyverse going on, but no longer creates it, or masterminds its progress. Just like Buffy in 'The Gift'

Hope this makes some semblance of sense.

Just been reminded of that Joss DVD commentary for 'Innocence', where he comments how much he enjoyed filming a particular oner, and then says: 'I get very excited by that. But then, I spend a lot of my time in a dark room watching films. And have few friends'. Funny, but actually also just a little sad. Even though he's universally admired, there's just a hint of loneliness in the joke. A loneliness which we see in the character of Buffy.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> Sadness/Loneliness -- Rahael, 06:17:50 01/21/03 Tue

You know what? Everytime I listen to a Joss commentary I get all excited about the show again. But, maybe I'm just hallucinating this, I also get that sense of sadness - someone who is very sensitive and life has hurt quite a bit. It could be loneliness. I wonder who wrote that Cordelia line "you don't think I feel lonely? Even when I'm with a group of people I feel lonely" - I paraphrase.

Have you listened to the commentary on the Body? I thought the sense of pain was palpable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreeing, agreeing and (you guessed it) agreeing -- Tchaikovsky, 07:40:02 01/21/03 Tue

I agree that Joss's commentaries are very galvanising. I think he has exactly the same balance of comedy and seriousness which the show has. I also think that he simply has both a clearer emotional and intellectual bond to the show than anyone else. The quote where he was talking about killing Tara and claimed the thought made him feel physically sick seemed quite plausible to me. But also, the subtler nuances of plot and theme, lost even to the other writers and directors sometimes, seem to be all in his head. It harks back to that quote on the top of the board:

'When somebody says there is a philosophy behind 'Buffy' that is the truth. When they say there is symbolism and meaning in what we're doing, that's true too'

I agree that there's a sense of sadness. It's odd, because he's constantly venerated. He's so appreciated, and yet I sometimes wonder whether it still feels a bit impersonal to him. At least, we know how much he hated high school, so he does have that pool of experience.

And I have listened to the commentary to 'The Body', and it is as painful as the episode. But it seems like he's someone who has really considered death, rather than writing acceptable cliches. With something like the death of Tasha Yar (excuse the uncalled for Star Trek reference), it seemed entirely superficial. With Joyce, it is one of the truest portrayals of a reaction to death I have read or watched. On a par with the great poets.

Which, of course, is why Joss is so exceptional.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Would agree with all three above posts -- shadowkat, 11:04:56 01/21/03 Tue

And thank you so much TCH for that wonderful compliment. I've never been compared to a jax saxophonist and a composer before ...wow. Maybe I'm writing better than I think I am. Been enjoying your posts as well btw. so the compliment means that much more..

*************

I sense the loneliness in Whedon's writing as well - which may be why I love it so much, b/c I can identify with that sense of creating in a void of being alone. Even with all the veneration he gets...it still feels like not enough.
Reminds me of something a Creative Writing Professor told me once - he said the thrill of being published ends once the first book is out, fame and fortune fleeting and unlikely, if you want to write - it is a lonely life and done because something drives you...

In Whedon's commentaries - I sense a self-deprecating charm not noticeable within the other writers commentaries, he almost seems embarrassed to be talking to us and is afraid he's boring us. In The Body commentary - he almost cried during the Willow scene - because her reaction he states is so close to his own, the obessive search for the right outfit. The reason The Body to me has always been the best representation of death and grief in the series - is because it hit so closely to my own experience with the surreal aspects of death, instead of candy-coating it or glorifying it. (In fact as an interesting aside - he was annoyed by fans who thought Dawn would heal Joyce with her key powers in the next episode...I'm wondering if that might have been part of the motivation behind one of the creepiest episodes in the series: Forever - where Dawn does attempt to bring her mother back to life and realizes she can't.)

Whedon is an interesting writer - very brave about revealing his own pain and anguish in his work and he demands the same bravery from his actors and writers - because it's what he expects from himself. I think that's what separates him from some other writers.

Must say I like the line - "I spend so much time in dark rooms watching films with few friends..." completely identify. Although...as i was musing last night, we often have more friends than we think we do when we're feeling bummed out. This was proven last year with Buffy in a way.

At any rate...I found his desire to give up and being forced to go on...an interesting one and one we all feel from time to time, I certainly felt it last year around the same time he did. The fact he had the courage to take that feeling and write about it in his series...fascinates me.
As He sort of says in the DVD -I didn't want her rebirth to be easy - I wanted to get across how hard it is to keep doing something when you thought you were finished.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great post! -- ponygirl, 11:43:25 01/21/03 Tue

I've always felt that OMWF was about Joss' fears of burnout, about what's left after you've poured out everything in your heart and are just tap-dancing mindlessly to the same old tune. The great thing about the season long arcs on BtVS is that there's the sense that Joss and the writers are trying to work through their own ideas and issues. They aren't operating from a set plan: "here's what I know for sure and now I'm going to tell you about it"; but rather, like all of us, trying to figure out how to live their lives. That means that there are failures, and setbacks, and muddled meanings, but overall I think we get a deeper connection because we can feel the people behind the words.

Much as I hate the reruns, the posts and sub-threads that have been written lately are so amazing it more than makes the wait worthwhile!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes! -- Angela, 13:47:37 01/21/03 Tue

Ponygirl...a post in which almost every line had a resonance with some thoughts.

Doesn't it make you wonder a bit about Sweet? And Sparky um Spike? And Grave? Choosing to live because of Dawn? Or was his message in Bargaining and OMWF and not Grave? And what was Tabula Rasa then? I think about Joan a lot this year. Yipes, less coffee needed I think.....

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