January 2003 posts
'Showtime' Revisited (with spoilers) -- Darby, 15:12:36 01/14/03 Tue
Just workin' my way through another episode. Blame our new wireless system...
What are the Bringers? Demons or some human self-mutilation occult group? Buffy doesn't mind killing them, in either case.
Kennedy & Willow - is this some obscure riff on gays in the military? Could Kennedy handle a spin-off as a Gay Slayer?
Close your eyes during the "wings" discussion and Michelle Trachtenberg could be talking.
Fury has shown no love for the rich and privileged - what could he know about Kennedy's future?
Okay, I get the Slumber Party Massacre thing, plus problems both logistical (small house, can't have an army that actually looks much like an army) and financial (too many actors spoils the budget), but couldn't someone explain why not one Watcher has accompanied his charge to Sunnydale? The pattern seems to have been for the Bringers to take them out in pairs, so most of the remaining proto-Slayers should have Watchers. Also, since the First seems to have access to the memories of dead things, it wouldn't need to infiltrate to learn about the girls if their Watchers were dead.
What exactly does Anya do when "making the rounds" when a demon attacks her?
Once again, the Giles reactions to Anya are too Gilesish to be a remarkable simulation.
Giles can't be a noncorporeal construct of the coven - they wouldn't call him on the phone and give it away, would they? He couldn't answer a phone!
Is there a proto-Slayer expiration date? Would Kennedy's Watcher have cut her loose at a particular age?
Does Dawn's Keyness make her more susceptible to the presence of the First in Sunnydale? Is she getting more evil, or just being an annoyed teenager?
Would the bondage scenes work if it was Jonathan rather than Andrew? (I miss Jonathan) Andrew's getting pretty pathetic, though.
How did the monks find Rona when the Watchers hadn't? And how is the coven doing it, since they also knew about Rona?
If Giles doesn't touch Anya when she turns to leave , why does she turn back before he asks his question?
What about the Chosen Ones has been irrevocably altered? It doesn't seem like Buffy's being alive is irrevocable...
So somebody want to tell me why someone didn't go around poking everybody else looking for the First? It would have made a typical Andrew bit.
Still wondering which "her" needs to stay alive...
A monk sets up to swing an axe at Xander, but Xander is saved. Hidden message?
Giles seems pretty sure that Buffy's resurrection is the cause of the difficulties. Is he right?
"The world would be better off if Buffy had just stayed dead." Very Wishlike, and ironic coming from Anya.
Kinda weird that something older than the Christian Church is vulnerable to Holy Water...
Is the fact that the Turok-Han abandoned Buffy for the others an indicator of who "Her" is?
"A Slayer must always reach for a weapon." That's a truism. For the series, Buffy has approached Slaying with a "What will kill this one?" approach. To take on the Uber barehanded after previous failures is about as anti-Buffy as you can get - it plays against her great strength, her ability to strategize. "I always find a way," she says to the GrrrArrgh guy. There is no way to rationalize this away. Or is there?
It isn't just Buffy in the fight. Willow is intently focused on her through the battle, staring with great focus, perhaps feeding her strength to Buffy the way Buffy had when Willow was recovering from Gnarl?? Willow didn't have the black eyes, but she hasn't when doing the "connections" thing, the gentle nudging rather than the compelling magicks. Anyway, I'd like to think that Buffy's plan involved more than her being pummeled again, and this is one possibility.
- Darby, finding that, as usual, the episode holds up better on rewatching.
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Wow! So many questions! -- Dichotomy, 15:58:50 01/14/03 Tue
They're good ones, though. I have no answers, only speculation:
Is there a proto-Slayer expiration date?
Yes. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere between cottage cheese and a Twinkie.
A monk sets up to swing an axe at Xander, but Xander is saved. Hidden message?
For no real reason other than a vibe I'm getting, I feel like Xander is going to be more important than he appears in upcoming eps. I'm sure this could be backed up with episodic evidence, but I don't have anything to point to at present.
So, there you go. Absolutely nothing helpful from me.
Good observations, too. I especially liked those pertaining to Anya and Holy Water. I never would have caught those. Well, not soon, anyway.
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Re: Wow! So many questions! -- CW, 20:33:12 01/14/03 Tue
Having actually seen a Twinkie in which the 'creamy' filling had turned green, I can tell you it's not a pretty sight. I don't think it was as old as Kennedy, but then again it wasn't my Twinkie. That was in the days before expiration dates, but I feel safe in saying that one had expired.
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Just: Ewwww! -- Dichotomy, 05:05:26 01/15/03 Wed
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one (possible) answer -- anom, 23:07:45 01/14/03 Tue
"'A Slayer must always reach for a weapon.' That's a truism. For the series, Buffy has approached Slaying with a 'What will kill this one?' approach. To take on the Uber barehanded after previous failures is about as anti-Buffy as you can get - it plays against her great strength, her ability to strategize. 'I always find a way,' she says to the GrrrArrgh guy. There is no way to rationalize this away. Or is there?"
Buffy's other great strength is her ability to improvise. Her creativity in fighting has saved her life many times. Remember Spike videotaping her against a vamp in...um...some ep not long after School Hard? He comments on how she uses what's available (I think in this case it was the wooden upright of a sign, which she broke off & staked the vamp with). And using the weapons she finds at hand on the construction site is how Buffy wins against the Turok-Han.
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Maybe answers, maybe not -- HonorH, 23:59:48 01/14/03 Tue
What are the Bringers? Demons or some human self-mutilation occult group? Buffy doesn't mind killing them, in either case.
I always thought they were humans who'd been altered somehow by their proximity to the First. Dunno how they see in that case, though.
Fury has shown no love for the rich and privileged - what could he know about Kennedy's future?
She's living, no matter what Fury says. They're setting her up as Willow's new love interest. Given the fury (no pun intended) that greeted Tara's death, I'd say this is the one case in which getting involved with a canon character will actually *improve* a new character's odds of survival.
Okay, I get the Slumber Party Massacre thing, plus problems both logistical (small house, can't have an army that actually looks much like an army) and financial (too many actors spoils the budget), but couldn't someone explain why not one Watcher has accompanied his charge to Sunnydale?
Convenience. That and Kennedy's Watcher is dead, at least. Could be that the Watchers are buying time for the girls at the expense of their own lives.
Once again, the Giles reactions to Anya are too Gilesish to be a remarkable simulation.
Exactly my feeling. Too many little idiosyncracies. The other regulars who've been imitated have all been a little "off" in their performances. Giles is on in most cases, but still, something's wrong. Not evil, just wrong.
Giles can't be a noncorporeal construct of the coven - they wouldn't call him on the phone and give it away, would they? He couldn't answer a phone!
My thoughts exactly. The mystery deepens, and they'd better solve it soon.
Is there a proto-Slayer expiration date? Would Kennedy's Watcher have cut her loose at a particular age?
When I wrote a former Slayer-in-Waiting into "Ties That Bind," she was cut loose at 18. I figured that'd be the cutoff, but I guess they needed Kennedy to be a little older and thus non-statutory for when she and Willow get to the nookie.
Does Dawn's Keyness make her more susceptible to the presence of the First in Sunnydale? Is she getting more evil, or just being an annoyed teenager?
Very interesting questions. She's definitely darker this season, and I'm intrigued at where she's going.
Would the bondage scenes work if it was Jonathan rather than Andrew? (I miss Jonathan) Andrew's getting pretty pathetic, though.
I think Danny Strong could definitely make bondage work for him. I dunno, though--for an annoying little prick, Andrew's actually kind of endearing.
How did the monks find Rona when the Watchers hadn't? And how is the coven doing it, since they also knew about Rona?
My guess is that the First isn't relying on Watcher data and has its own way of sensing proto-Slayers. The coven has powerful seers. You've got to remember that the Watchers don't pick up on every proto-Slayer--witness Buffy being Called with no training at all.
What about the Chosen Ones has been irrevocably altered? It doesn't seem like Buffy's being alive is irrevocable...
No, but her resurrection is. If that's what changed things, simply killing Buffy might not be the answer to reinstituting the protection on the Slayer line.
So somebody want to tell me why someone didn't go around poking everybody else looking for the First?
Would seem logical, wouldn't it? I'm hoping they catch on to that and make sure everybody's touchable now.
Still wondering which "her" needs to stay alive...
You and the rest of the fandom, sweetie.
A monk sets up to swing an axe at Xander, but Xander is saved. Hidden message?
Yes. "Nick Brendan's contract hasn't run out yet."
Giles seems pretty sure that Buffy's resurrection is the cause of the difficulties. Is he right?
We didn't see the whole conversation with the Eye of Beljoxa. I'm hoping Giles and/or Anya relates exactly what it said so we can make our own judgments.
Kinda weird that something older than the Christian Church is vulnerable to Holy Water...
I think it's the holiness that affects it more than the precise brand of the holiness. On "Forever Knight", it was once revealed that the symbol of Ra, the Egyptian sun god, had the same effect on vampires that crosses now have. I wonder if the same mightn't be true for Jossverse vamps.
Is the fact that the Turok-Han abandoned Buffy for the others an indicator of who "Her" is?
Yes, but it's still anyone's guess as to precisely what it means.
"A Slayer must always reach for a weapon." That's a truism. For the series, Buffy has approached Slaying with a "What will kill this one?" approach. To take on the Uber barehanded after previous failures is about as anti-Buffy as you can get - it plays against her great strength, her ability to strategize. "I always find a way," she says to the GrrrArrgh guy. There is no way to rationalize this away. Or is there?
My interpretation is that she took the UV on barehanded because it made for a more spectacular demonstration for the Jr. Slayers. She was determined to win and knew there would be tools available at the site. She went bare-knuckles with it because she knew that to set a complicated trap for the UV would be counterproductive to what she wanted to get across--that she *could* protect them, that a will *does* find a way, and that they *can* trust her even when she doesn't have a weapon or a strategy at close reach.
It isn't just Buffy in the fight. Willow is intently focused on her through the battle, staring with great focus, perhaps feeding her strength to Buffy the way Buffy had when Willow was recovering from Gnarl??
I kinda wondered the same thing, but as per the above, I think that would be counter to the message. Grit, guts, and glory is what Buffy was going for. She was reassuring herself along with the potentials.
I make any sort of sense?
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Holy Water -- Cleanthes, 07:32:58 01/15/03 Wed
Kinda weird that something older than the Christian Church is vulnerable to Holy Water...
I think it's the holiness that affects it more than the precise brand of the holiness. On "Forever Knight", it was once revealed that the symbol of Ra, the Egyptian sun god, had the same effect on vampires that crosses now have. I wonder if the same mightn't be true for Jossverse vamps.
This is the answer the Medieval Church gave to questions of this type -- eg. why Christmas is on Mithra's birthday (December 25). The great "I AM" knew what was going to happen before it happened. Many prior practices continue because the pre-Christians were groping for the truth. If the pagans had already found a truth even though they hadn't found THE truth, well, that's good for them.
It works logically even if you don't accept the omnipotence of the Christian "I AM" - some Christian practices may have stumbled on a more ancient truth and then have kept those practices because they worked.
To PROVE this interpretation, some non-Christian holiness would also have to work which it kinda has; nothing on the show so far has contradicted this interpretation -- eg. no non-Christian holy water has been shown as ineffective.
Wiccan practices certainly have been shown as effective, so I think my latitudinarian interpretation has at least some support.
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Except... -- Darby, 07:43:52 01/15/03 Wed
...Willow couldn't protect her home with a Star of David. There are several vampire canons that allow equal power to various religious symbols, but BtVS isn't one of them. Joss has even said that he was resistant to the Christian countermeasures but that they were too integrated into the accepted pop-culture vamp mythology to abandon. There have been several opportunities to broaden the rules in this respect, cover more symbols (in Willow's case especially), but they've all been ignored, not exactly great evidence to the contrary, but a bit.
Interestingly, the Marvel comics Dracula mythology made any religious symbol work, but only in the hands of believers. Our Scoobs would be screwed under those rules, eh-?
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Well, Holy Water has to be blessed first. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:26:32 01/15/03 Wed
And religious rituals in the Buffyverse have sometimes been shown to have magical aspects. So the ritual to create holy water may have mystical properties to it that were originally designed to ward off vampires.
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My own pet theory... -- Darby, 08:42:26 01/15/03 Wed
...Is that a Catholic Mystic once tried to magically expel all of the vamps from the world, and although it didn't work it left all vamps with a revulsion to Catholic holy symbols (Buffy's original trunk had Communion wafers and I think rosary beads in it as well as Holy Water). Hey, it's as good a crazy theory as any. We'll just have to wait for a vamp to be affected by a statue of the Virgin...
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Karl Popper wins another (Spoilers for CWDP) -- Sophist, 08:56:24 01/15/03 Wed
We'll just have to wait for a vamp to be affected by a statue of the Virgin...
From CWDP:
HOLDEN: There's nothing wrong with you.
He swings a small statue of the Virgin Mary into her face, sends her flying back. She lands on her back, dazed, and he lands on her, vamped out.
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Curses! Foiled again! (Spoilers for CWDP) -- Darby, 10:46:52 01/15/03 Wed
Which is particularly unpleasant, given that I am an epee fencer!
Somewhere, maybe one person is either laughing or groaning. Or both.
Is there a denomination that uses Holy Water, wafers, but not the virgin? I'm willing to amend my theory...
...And that, boys and girls, is why science is a flawed endeavor...
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Most Protestants probably qualify -- Sophist, 11:01:42 01/15/03 Wed
They discourage Mariolatry.
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On re-thinking it a bit -- Sophist, 13:44:46 01/16/03 Thu
I focused too much on the Mary issue. Not many Protestants recognize holy water and I'm not sure any view the cross as anything other than a symbol (Protestantism is so inherently anarchical that there's bound to be an exception). Your best bet would be Anglicans, but maybe someone more familiar with modern Protestant doctrines could give a better answer........
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Re: Except... -- Cleanthes, 08:26:47 01/15/03 Wed
The Star of David has only worked against vampires in comedy vampire films, to my knowledge. The reason the star of David is a religious symbol differs markedly from the reason the cross is a religious symbol. For all we know, the symbols of Osiris's death and rebirth would work against vampires (well, except if used by Willow, but she pissed Osiris off). Of course, it's easier to buy Christian paraphernalia than to get good quality ancient Egyptian crooks & flails, even in Sunnydale!
I agree that Whedon, et. all, say and maybe even mean that they resist the Christian aspects, but I believe this can be subsumed into the general superstitious refusal by non-Christians to allow that anything about Christianity has meaning because then maybe ALL of it has meaning which matches, IMO, meme for meme (hehe), with many exclusivist Christians unease with the use of any Christian symbolism in secular contrivance.
As you say, viewers expect crosses to work against vampires, so they do. It's probably best to leave explanation of that aspect of crosses and holy water that provides the potency vague. The Marvel comics method (it's the belief that matters) has been used elsewhere as well. It may seem more understandable and humanistic, but once a philosophical look is taken at the foundations of subjective belief, the result will destroy the whole edifice. What would happen in the Marvel mythology for any Abrahams experiencing a teleological suspension of the ethical?
I prefer the Buffy way, at least so far, which is to leave it all as far up in the air as possible. This allows me the maximum pleasure in providing rococo explanations of my own!
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Re: Except... -- Arethusa, 11:35:34 01/15/03 Wed
I agree that Whedon, et. all, say and maybe even mean that they resist the Christian aspects, but I believe this can be subsumed into the general superstitious refusal by non-Christians to allow that anything about Christianity has meaning because then maybe ALL of it has meaning which matches, IMO, meme for meme (hehe), with many exclusivist Christians unease with the use of any Christian symbolism in secular contrivance.
A disbelief in superstitions cannot be ascribed to superstition. Your conclusion cannot follow, since a non-believer doesn't believe any of it has meaning, in a supernatural sense.
Let's say you don't believe in fish*. Fish are a myth thought up to keep people from exploring and drowning in rivers and seas. If someone holds up a little fish carving for protection against the sea, you don't fear their little fish carving, or ascribe supernatural qualities to it. It's just a little wood representation of a mythological creature. You don't worry about the potentially dangerous properties or meaning of scales or fins or little fish carvings, because you don't believe in fish.
*With apologies to R. McKinley.
Arethusa,
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Gee, out of the archives and I thought of a reply, too -- Cleanthes, 14:12:03 01/16/03 Thu
I wrote:
I agree that Whedon, et. all, say and maybe even mean that they resist the Christian aspects, but I believe this can be subsumed into the general superstitious refusal by non-Christians to allow that anything about Christianity has meaning because then maybe ALL of it has meaning which matches, IMO, meme for meme (hehe), with many exclusivist Christians unease with the use of any Christian symbolism in secular contrivance.
Arethusa replied:
A disbelief in superstitions cannot be ascribed to superstition. Your conclusion cannot follow, since a non-believer doesn't believe any of it has meaning, in a supernatural sense.
Let's say you don't believe in fish*. Fish are a myth thought up to keep people from exploring and drowning in rivers and seas. If someone holds up a little fish carving for protection against the sea, you don't fear their little fish carving, or ascribe supernatural qualities to it. It's just a little wood representation of a mythological creature. You don't worry about the potentially dangerous properties or meaning of scales or fins or little fish carvings, because you don't believe in fish.
I love your example; it reminds me of a similar story about Kokopilesobeh on my website: http://hometown.aol.com/brule31x63/myhomepage/index.html
I'm not sure my conclusion is affected one way or the other by your example. My point depends on the reason for assuming an all-or-nothing approach, not on which belief or superstition one accepts or rejects. To apply this to your example - if all things fishy are rejected, then the all-or-nothing approach has been adopted up front without justification. But that itself may as well be mapped to superstition. Disbelief in fish sounds superstitious to me!
In my original paragraph, I had in mind cases of non-Christians declaring as worthless nonsense the Notre Dame cathedral or Thomas Aquinas's philosophy or the mystical poetic writings of St. Theresa merely because these non-Christians fear the Lord will get them if they credit Him with anything good at all. (this is, I think, why the Taliban blew up those statues of Buddha - they feared Buddha's wrath)
As a non-Christian, I can still see value in some things Christian without fear that the Lord will smite me for failing to go all the way.
Okay, well, dropping back to the effectiveness of the Cross or Holy Water - that these work against vampires does not necessarily mean that the Pope is therefore infallible in the Buffyverse or, by extension, in the realverse. (that is, if I saw vampires in real life and crosses and holy water worked against them, I wouldn't immediately begin attending mass regularly).
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Just one more -- pellenaka, 07:09:14 01/15/03 Wed
Is there a connection between the Harbingers having no eyes and the Beljoxa's eye having lots?
Yes. I believe there is.
Also, if Giles is the FE, is it excellent that he brought Anya to that Eye. She will now walk around and tell the others that Buffy's resurrection is to blame. Giles didn't argument against this.
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Re: 'Showtime' Revisited (with spoilers) -- Vickie, 08:00:49 01/15/03 Wed
"How did the monks find Rona when the Watchers hadn't? And how is the coven doing it, since they also knew about Rona?"
I think it goes 1. Buffy finds out about Rona (from the coven?), 2. Buffy tells SITs that she's going out to get another one from the bus station, 3. FEEve communicates with Bringers...
"Still wondering which "her" needs to stay alive..."
Yes! But as you suggest later, maybe the fact that the Turok turned from Buffy indicates she's the one. Many have wondered why she could finally defeat it, using no different tactics or weapons than before. But it the Turok was holding back some, because she wasn't supposed to die yet, that might have made the difference. That and the eye poke.
I confess I didn't see any evidence of the Turok holding back.
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Re: 'Showtime' Revisited (with spoilers) -- Darby, 08:50:26 01/15/03 Wed
Rona states in the basement that she hadn't known that she was a Slayerette until "those crazy-ass monks came after me." That had to have happened before she got on the bus, or there would have been no reason to get on the bus or to know about Buffy. Wonder how she survived that first encounter? Maybe she's from Gunn's old neighborhood...
So the sequence had to have been: she lived a fine life with no Watcher encounters, and then the monks found her at or about the same time that someone from the Buffy side - the coven or some remaining Watcher remnant - found her. Her first run-in with the Underside (from her perspective, at least) was through being attacked by monks, which she somehow survived, and afterward was put on a bus to Sunnydale and sent to Buffy.
My head hurts.
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Re: 'Showtime' Revisited (with spoilers) -- Vickie, 09:25:36 01/15/03 Wed
You're right. I'd forgotten about the first encounter. Maybe the Bringers are using the same kind of magic that the coven is? Certainly whatever the WC was doing would have been lost with them, unless Giles and the handful of remaining watchers in the field know how to do it.
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holy water -- masio, 10:06:39 01/15/03 Wed
ok look
Someone in a post not long ago gave the best explanation that i have heard about the whole "why does holy water work?" thing.
They explained that magic is responsible for it. It has nothing to do with faith, clearly, its just that certain articacts were blessed (cursed) with energies to ward off vamps. It just so happens that the christians did it. Maybe cause there were so many of em back then--and now i suppose
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Re: holy water -- Darby, 12:06:47 01/15/03 Wed
Joss is famous for using that excuse when something obviously doesn't make sense. The Buffyverse fall-back position: "It's magic!"
But the question still leads to magic how, when, why, and by whom?
The wood stuff through the heart is acceptable, since it has a sort of universality, but a limited subset of symbols from a particular religion demands some sort of backstory.
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Re: holy water -- Arethusa, 12:24:35 01/15/03 Wed
Shaman: The power of your beliefs over our people has begun to eclipse mine, priest, so now it is up to you to fight the demons my ancestors have held at bay for so long. Meanwhile, I shall go into hiding in a small but beautiful island, where I shall pass down my secrets to a chosen few, and invent tweed. Here are a few items that I have imbued with magic to help your guard against the demon hoards coming to use your guts for garters.
Shaman hands a tailsman (a couple of sticks tied in the middle), a bigger stick, and some water from his favorite spring in a guord to the priest.
Priest: Erp!
Book recommendations needed! -- Rob, 21:53:52 01/14/03 Tue
I'm really in the mood for a good fantasy book to read. I'd really appreciate some recommendations!
I've already read all of Neil Gaiman, Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials," Tolkien, Douglas Adams, and Orson Scott Card...and others of course obviously, but that's probably a pretty good start just to weed out some recommendations of books I might have already read.
Oh, and if you can think of a great book that isn't fantasy, please recommend away! I just realized, looking at my bookshelves, that I've read every book I own, or at least all that I'm interested in reading and didn't get bored with after a few chapters. So I'm all ready to go to Borders tomorrow, armed with some recommendations, if you guys would be so kind to oblige! ;o)
Rob
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Four old series -- Just George, 23:17:06 01/14/03 Tue
These books on my shelf are pretty old, but are particularly well read. Go to your favorite used bookstore or half.com and look them up:
Elizabeth Moon, The Deed of Paksenarrion Trilogy: Sheepfarmer's Daughter, Divided Allegiance, and Oath of Gold. Look for the trade paperback with all three books in one volume. Don't get to the end of book 2 unless you have book 3 handy. Book 2 ends like the second act of a dramatic play, all things look bleak. This is an example of "write what you know". The author was an officer in the US Marines. She gives the "life in a well run fantasy army" sections a very naturalistic feel.
Barbara Hambly, books with Sun Wolf and Starhawk: The Ladies of Madrigyn, The Witches of Wenshar, The Dark Hand of Magic. There are few authors I recommend almost unreservedly. Barbara Hambly is on that list. Funny. Smart. Enjoyable. These books can be read individually. But start with Ladies to get the full effect of Sun Wolf and Starhawk's evolution.
Tamora Pierce, The Song of the Lioness Quartette: Alanna The First Adventure, In The Hands of the Goddess, The Woman Who Rides Like A Man, Lioness Rampant. Young Adult fantasy adventure. Each book is short, but spirited. They will make you feel like a kid again. Or, the adult in you will find them a bit straight forward and they will make you wish you read them as a kid. Like the character they chronicle, they get more emotionally complex as they go along, so see if you can find them all.
Keith Laumer, any books of Retief short stories & novellas (avoid the novels like the plague): Retief Unbound, Retief at Large. Like Star Wars, these books are Space Fantasy instead of Science Fiction. Possibly the funniest books I have ever read, with images that stay with you for ages! "Put your manipulative members above your sense organ clusters, vile Terry!" I love these books. Retief is an intergalactic spy who would eat Bond for breakfast and polish off Flint for lunch. He lives in an absurd universe that surprisingly feels very close to our own. Another example of "write what you know". The author worked overseas for the US State department during the cold war and saw some of the day to day craziness of diplomatic and intelligence work. Start anywhere, all the short stories are good.
Have fun!
-JG
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Re: Hambly -- leslie, 12:42:11 01/15/03 Wed
Plus, she wrote two books about vampires and folklorists which I love, Those Who Hunt the Night and Traveling With the Dead, and one of my all-time favorite books, starting with its title, Bride of the Rat God, which involves supernatural shenanigans in 1920's Hollywood.
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Oh, and also -- leslie, 12:56:05 01/15/03 Wed
Tex and Molly in the Afterlife by Richard Grant (who is not Richard E. Grant, but is, in fact, married to Elizabeth Hand, whom s'kat recommends below); two aging hippies fall down a hole and kill themselves, and then have to deal with it
To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis is absolutely hilarious if you are at all familiar with Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat and/or Wodehouse-esque farce. Plus time travel.
Anything by Haruki Murakami. The Wind-up Bird Chronicles is probably my favorite--another novel that involves holes in the ground and alternate realities.
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Even more Hambly -- Millan, 06:31:26 01/16/03 Thu
I like her Sunwolf and Starhawk series, but I would also warmly recomend two other series from her:
The Windrose Chronicles: The Silent Tower, The Silicon Mage and Dog Wizard.
Sun-Cross: The Rainbow Abyss and The Magicians of Night.
/Millan
"Aah, being popular isn't so great. Or so I've read in books."
- Xander, Lessons
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Love Tamora Pierce! -- Scroll, 19:08:22 01/15/03 Wed
Tamora Pierce is one of my favourite authors. Many will see her novels as exclusively for youth/children, but I think they're wonderful anyway. Written a decade or two ago, the Lioness Quartet is definitely more adult than her other books, but she has two more quartets set in the same universe: The Immortals quartet; and the Protector of the Small quartet. I haven't decided which quartet is my favourite; they all have their charms.
Pierce also has two quartets in another universe, but these are for younger children. Still good, though! The first is Circle of Magic; the other is the Circle Open series.
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Gormenghast -- Lumina, 01:45:41 01/15/03 Wed
If you're looking for some quality fantasy you can't do better than Mervyn Peake's classic Gormenghast trilogy (especially the first two books - "Titus Groan" and "Gormenghast"). Gothic, brilliantly written, by turns grotesque, moving, frightening, and very, very funny, and a cast of characters of unparalleled strangeness and originality - as someone or other said, it's Dickens on crack. ;) Highly recommended. The BBC recently made a miniseries of it starring (among others) Jonathan Rhys Myers, Ian Richardson and Christopher Lee (also recommended).
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Seconding -- Tchaikovsky, 02:40:26 01/15/03 Wed
Wrote this about Gormenghast when we had that last big round of book recommendations:
For the Tolkien/Buffy thing, one of the best complements from slightly older fiction than is generally mentioned is Mervyn Peake's 'Gormenghast' Trilogy. The first two books in particular, play out life in a vast, crazy ritualistic castle. Characters at first appear to be cariacatures, but are later fleshed out- so that their distinguishing features become almost amusing irrelevancies. The startling backdrop of the Byzantine castle is beautifully visual for a long, involved narrative. Don't expect to gallop through it. The trilogy is 900 pages of tiny writing in my tome, but worth every minute.
With Tolkien's Arda and the Buffyverse, one of the very finest creations of a fantasy world in any medium, although I think it does lag a bit in the third movement, where Peake is making up another world, and has lost the intimacy of space of the castle. But the first two are cracking.
TCH
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Re: Gormenghast -- CW, 06:51:05 01/15/03 Wed
Have to say I found the Gormenghast trilogy unreadable. I bought the set in college, tried two or three times to start reading it, but eventually threw it out unread. You might want to try reading a page or two at the library or book store before you commit to buying/reading it. Then, if you like it, go for it.
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errm. I have to agree. -- Rahael, 07:14:16 01/15/03 Wed
I got through most of it, but strangely enough, it didn't speak to me. I mean, on the outset, I thought I would love it but I just found it a little claustrophobic. Still worth reading I think, because it's such an intense and unusual vision.
OTOH, I don't find Tolkien particularly congenial either, so I could be peculiar.
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I actually did read (or tried to read) Gormenghast... -- Rob, 07:21:11 01/15/03 Wed
...and I know what you mean about the claustrophobic thing, although I did like it. I got about 300 pages into it, and then stopped for some reason. Sometimes I have difficulty getting through the really long books, because even if I am still interested in the story, I sometimes grow tired of reading the same book. So I decide to take a short break. And of course I never go back to it. I like the story of Gormenghast, and the setting, but, as with "Lord of the Rings," the more drawn-out descriptions and snail's pace narrative frequently left me antsy.
Would it be heresy to say that I enjoyed the LotR films so far more than the books?
Rob
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I get antsy too -- Rahael, 07:39:34 01/15/03 Wed
When I go on a proper reading binge, I often read about 6 or 7 books at the same time precisely to combat the problem of not reading the same book on and on. I've always done this. I think it initally started because I used to get the maximum number of books out of the library at the same time and was too greedy to wait to read any of them. So I read them all at the same time. So ten pages of each or a chapter (there was always an organic pause point) and then on to the next one.
(Yes, I'm still posting away to try and kill the leviathan at the bottom of the board. Ramble ramble ramble!)
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Me too! -- Rob, 07:51:03 01/15/03 Wed
Or at least I used to do that a few years ago, when I had more time, less homework (and less interesting places to visit on-line)! I would usually read 4-5 books at a time, and read approx. 50 pages of each before moving to the next one, and I'd go around in a circle. Every now and then I still do that, but I have to confess, less frequently. I just finished reading a book of essays by Sarah Vowell, called "The Partly Cloudy Patriot," including a great essay about Gore, Bush, and Buffy! And I hadn't read a book in so long before this (which didn't used to be like me at all--one summer two or three years back I read over 50 books) that I instantly craved another one. I guess I'll never be able to escape by bookworm roots (and I'm glad about that); I was always the kid in school who was reading a book, usually one that was more adult than most kids my age would be reading at the time, while all the others were playing with a basketball or jumping on the monkey-bars. To this day, I can't play sports...but I do know a lot of big words! ;o)
Rob
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Me too! -- Rahael, 08:35:16 01/15/03 Wed
Glad to know I'm not the only one. I still do it, but it takes me much much longer. Like I'll have a couple of non-fictions, some light fictional reading, some heavy, and it'll take weeks and months rather than days.
As for your description of your younger self, that's me exactly!
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Me three! -- CW, 12:13:35 01/15/03 Wed
I don't read much fiction at all any more (I think it makes my own writing worse, not better). But, I'll often still read two or three history books at the same time. I used to read one book at breaks at work, another before my evening meal and a third as I was getting ready for bed. That was especially useful when I was reading a lot of Russian for work. I'd get to the point where I couldn't tell one word from the next in Russian, stop for a while, read something else for a hour in English. Then when I went back to the Russian it made more sense.
I found LotR very slow in spots, but it never ground to a halt like Gormenghast did for me. Haven't seen the second installment of the movie LotR yet, but I actually liked the first book better than the first part of the movie.
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Also keep different books in different rooms of the house -- luna, 07:34:14 01/16/03 Thu
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Nope..I was the same way -- shadowkat, 08:31:59 01/15/03 Wed
Sometimes I have difficulty getting through the really long books, because even if I am still interested in the story, I sometimes grow tired of reading the same book. So I decide to take a short break. And of course I never go back to it. I like the story of Gormenghast, and the setting, but, as with "Lord of the Rings," the more drawn-out descriptions and snail's pace narrative frequently left me antsy.
Would it be heresy to say that I enjoyed the LotR films so far more than the books?
If it is - than count me as a fellow heretic. I never made it all the way through Return of The King - way back in junior high when I first read them. I got impatient with the snail's pace narrative as well. There's one whole section that describes in detail the making of a rabbit stew, which while fascinating to some...made me antsy and wanting to get back to the story. Tolkien has a tendency to go off on tangents and build environment. Dickens was also into doing this. Actually Frank Herbert may annoy you as well - he does the same thing and Herbert shares Tolkien's obsession with Appendix's - there's one on language (Herbert also made up a language for Dune), religion, caste systems...Friends of mine adore this stuff, I find it tedious and overwritten. To each his own.
What I loved about the movies is we stuck to the story and cut out the fluff (okay again depends on point of view here).
So I guess I'm joining you're heretics club. ;-) sk
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Oh goody some heretics to join........;) -- Rufus, 05:14:50 01/18/03 Sat
I fell asleep part way through The Hobbit.....I've glanced at the Fellowship and Tolkiens work seems to have the universal effect of rendering me comatose....I gave up and decided to enjoy the movies.
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have tried to read LotR three times -- Helen, 08:59:12 01/15/03 Wed
and always came to a grinding halt halfway through the second volume. Just don't buy into the great literature rep these books have.
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Thus Spoke Zarathustra -- frisby, 02:56:37 01/15/03 Wed
Try Nietzsche's _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_
"When Zarathustra was thirty years old he left his home and the lake of his home and went into the mountains. There he enjoyed his spirit and his solitude and did not tire of it for ten years. But at last his heart was transformed and one morning he rose with the dawn, stepped before the sun and spoke thus: 'Thou great star! .....'"
(He knows the sun is a star, a fact most of the people who have ever lived on this planet did not know, making him a modern human -- but does he know of that star's galactic year?)
(Fantasy? Are we to think of Plato's sun?)
(Oh well, there's my suggestion.)
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Re: SF and Fantasy = Julian May -- pr10n, 07:36:32 01/15/03 Wed
My personal favorite series of all time is Julian May's Remillard Saga, covering the Pliocene Exile books, the Intervention, and the Galactic Milieu trilogy. First book is The Many Colored Land.
The series is sweeping fantasy, low-tech SF, super-mind-powers, and mythological history, for the low low price of your library card! :)
Radical Topic Change -- I have been reading Michael and Jeff Shaara's historical fictions about early US wars. JW was inspired by Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels when he created Firefly -- the TNT movie Gettysburg (w/Martin Sheen and Jeff Daniels) was based on it. Absolutely fascinating stuff, but few pixies or magic users involved.
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- shadowkat, 07:39:10 01/15/03 Wed
HAving just asked for a few recs myself - because I have a gift certificate I have to use...feel the need to return the favor and keep the thread alive.
My fantasy recs run the gamit:
For Space Fantasy:
Dune by Frank Herbert - Herbert is a lot like Tolkien except sci-fi and creates an entire world full of interesting and complex characters as well as lots of religion metaphors.
Other dimensions - ie our world to another one
Stephen Donaldson's White Gold Weilder triology - these are novels about a man with leprosey who gets transfered into another world and his wedding ring and leprosey make him powerful in this fantastical universe. His own world I believe is the catskills in US. Been a long time since I read this - but I can't forget certain images. Definitely leaves an impression.
Myths:
Terry Brooks - Greek Gods series - Being A Green Mother, To Ride A Pale Horse - these are fantastical retellings of the greek and roman myths.
Occult and White Goddess:
Elizabeth Hand's Waking The Moon - a fanstasy horror novel that discusses the White Goddess and female empowerment and occult rituals.
Standard Fantasy:
Ursula Le Guin's The Wizard of Earthsea Triology
Dark Fantasy:
Anne Rice - The Vampire Lestate Triology - with Interview With A Vampire being the best of the bunch. Also she does a Witches triology starting with The Witching Hour.
Sci/Fantasy:
Sherri Tepper - GRASS - this is a science fiction/fantasy novel that deals with all sorts of religious, sexual and power themes. A very disturbing book. I read it over 6 years ago and can't forget it. The story is about a couple who are sent by their home planet to a new paradise. The home planet is struggling with a reoccurence of the black death or plague. And it is ruled by the Catholic Church.
The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russel - this is also sort of sci-fi/fantasy but with an anthropological bent. The story is about an expedition of a group of people to visit a planet that is sending beautiful music to earth.
They determine the planets language through the music. They journey to that planet and what is examined is how their very presence changes the planet's cultural dynamic. Moral themes examined include: population balance, slavery, missionaries, evangelism, colonialism, cultural interaction,
etc. It is an emotionally wrenching book and stays with you.
Start with The Sparrow. Both should be in paper back.
Fun read or light sci/fantasy:
Fun reads - Anne McCaffrey's Dragon series. Not a lot of depth but it's fun.
For dark fantasy - there's the Anita Blake Vampire Hunter series by Laurel K. Hamilton. And the Kiss of Shadows - or Fairy Fantasy series by Hamilton.
Not sure if any of those would be of interest.
Thanks for the American Gods rec - btw - I finished it over three weeks ago and it still haunts me. SK
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Bunches of Recs! -- Sara, 07:51:28 01/15/03 Wed
Have you checked out the CS Lewis trilogy - "Prelandra", "Out of the Silent Planet" and "That Hideous
Strength" - I loved those. Read much Heinlein? "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Stranger in a Strange Land" are two classics, but all of his stuff is really readable if you stay away from his much later work.
The monster is just devouring a series called "DragonLance" - the good thing is that if you like it there's a million of these books. They're written by different authors, and there's a whole bunch of mini-series within the overall set, a trilogy here, a 8-book set there. Since you like Pullman, you might also like Garth Nix's series - another one of the monster's favorites - "Lirael", and "Abhorsen", or Brian Jacques "Redwall" series. I haven't read these, but they are highly regarded by he who makes me crazy.
Back to ones I like - if you can find Roger Zelanzy's "Amber" series, I just loved that one. Michael Moorcock was also good in that vein, but I've got to admit I liked Zelanzy better. Also, when in doubt try Philip K. Dick - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" and "The Man in the High Castle" are fabulous!
Go have fun at the bookstore!!!
- Sara
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- fresne, 07:53:33 01/15/03 Wed
Well, beyond my traditional Lois McMaster Bujold, actually let's start there. For Science Fiction read Shards of Honor/Cordelia's Honor. For Fantasy, try The Curse of Chalion. CoC is a fantasy vision of Spain in the 15th century. The quintarian theology alone is fascinating. The Father, the Mother, the Daughter, the Son, the Bastard (for the thumb, god of the unwanted and disposed and yet, the opposable thumb, good to have.)
And you've read Judith Tarr's Isle of Glass right? Historical figures (Richard the Lionhearted, etc.) and the unreal fantasy about in an alternate England. The main character Alf is wonderfully realized. And messed up. Really messed up. First book in a trilogy.
Meridith Ann Pierce's Dark Angel trilogy. Technically young adult, but rich in luminous depths. She got the idea from a Jung case study about a woman who dreamed of a vampire that lived on the moon and needed thirteen brides. And for that matter her, The Woman Who Loved Reindeer is a very interesting laaplandish fantasy story. For whatever reason, her prose always makes me think of those golden afternoons in late summer when everything is filled with glowing light and yet...underneath it all is the thought that the summer is almost done. Afternoon. The night soon to come.
Requiem for the Devil. An amusing mindbender that takes up a few million years after Paradise Lost left off. Lucifer works as a political analyst in Washington D.C., cause you know, he's evil, then he falls in love, then he's really messed up. Gull darn it I want her next book already.
That's probably enough damage from my end for now.
Oh, and in the LoTR heresy, yeah I liked the movies better too. Hopefully the faithful don't go on Crusade.
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Who wrote Requiem for the Devil? -- shadowkat, 08:42:18 01/15/03 Wed
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'Requiem for the Devil' by Jeri Smith-Ready -- cjl, 14:06:51 01/15/03 Wed
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Mini-crusade in my all-new Angel thread! -- Tchaikovsky, 03:32:00 01/16/03 Thu
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- HonorH, 07:58:26 01/15/03 Wed
"The Deed of Paksenarrion" by Elizabeth Moon (three books--"Sheepfarmer's Daughter", "Divided Loyalties", and "Oath of Gold") for fantasy, and pretty much anything by David Weber--especially his Honor Harrington series. It starts with "On Basilisk Station". Go and read, my good man!
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Some classics for you... -- Helen, 09:03:49 01/15/03 Wed
recently realised haven't read very much early 20th century literature, so I've been reading Brideshead Revisited, The Pursuite of Love/Love in a Cold Climate by Nancy Mitford and the absolute classic, The Great Gatsby.
Realise these aren't in the slightest fantasy related. Just a couple recs for you incase you facny something else.
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How about Fantasy classics? -- shadowkat, 14:23:43 01/15/03 Wed
Robert Louis Stevenson's Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
HG Wells - The Island of Dr. Moreau, The Time Machine, The Invisible Man
Jules Verne - Journey to the Center of the Earth
Milton's Paradise Lost
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
And for the adventure genre there's always Alexandra Dumas and Robert Louis Stevenson, not to mention the works by Victor Hugo.
And for other tales: The Tale of The Genji - appears to have been recently republished.
And A Thousand and One Nights.
SK
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- Pilgrim, 11:42:49 01/15/03 Wed
I haven't seen anyone mention T.H. White's Once and Future King. It's been years since I read it, but I remember it fondly--a funny/sad retelling of the Arthurian legend. Current light favorites for me include Jane Smiley's Moo (a very funny sendup of university life) and the Cadfael mystery series, set in medieval England and Wales (you may have seen some of these made into television shows by the BBC, with Derek Jakobi playing Cadfael, the mystery-solving monk---the shows are pretty good, but the books are much better--I devoured them like popcorn last summer).
Thanks to those on this board who recommended Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising series--I'm finding it definitely worthwhile.
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I love 'Once and Future King' -- Rahael, 02:16:02 01/16/03 Thu
and glad you're enjoying Susan Cooper
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Oooh, me too. It's probably the book that influenced me the most, at around the age of 12 and 13. -- Rob, 18:47:04 01/16/03 Thu
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Pratchett! -- Shiraz, 12:12:56 01/15/03 Wed
I'd highly recommend any of Terry Pratchett's works, particularly any of his discworld series. He co-wrote Good Omens with Neil Gamian, and I beleive that the angelic/demonic main characters in that book are their alter-egos.
"Small Gods" is my favorite of Pratchett, but I'd also recommend "Guards! Guards", "Men at Arms", "Hogfather" and "Wyrd Sisters" as well.
-Shiraz
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Robin Hobb's 'Assasin' series. -- AurraSing, 14:47:04 01/15/03 Wed
She has two other trilogies coming off of this one but this is the first and so far,the best.
Interesting blend of animal magic and self-sacrifice.I find this trilogy the best three fantasy novels I've read in the past ten years.
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Have you tried Vernor Vinge? Sean Stewart? (maybe Stuart) -- luna, 17:42:18 01/15/03 Wed
It's hard SF, but very well done. I'm in the middle of A Deepness in the Sky, but A Fire Upon the Deep is also very good.
Also, ANYTHING by Sean Stewart. A great one, not to miss. But don't remember the last name--could be Stuart.
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- LadyStarlight, 19:48:14 01/15/03 Wed
Well, some of my favorite fantasy authors are: David Eddings (except the Althalus book, yeaurgh!), Mercedes Lackey (especially her Valdemar series), S.L. Viehl (this is a Space Opera-type series, I highly recommend it) and Spider Robinson (the Callahan series & his short story collections).
I like more authors, but they're mostly mystery writers.
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- Vickie, 22:08:46 01/15/03 Wed
There are lots of good books on this thread. I've read most, the rest are going on my list right now.
Leslie recommended Connie Willis' To Say Nothing of the Dog. Let me second that, and add anything at all this woman has written. Her Doomsday Book is the only novel to date that I have read the last page, taken a deep breath, and turned the book over and started again.
Bellwether is amazing, Remake (short stories, read the Winnebago one), and Passage (this year's Hugo nominee about near death experiences). Read them!
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Doomsday book and another suggestion -- KdS, 02:14:41 01/16/03 Thu
I thought Doomsday Book was absolutely fantastic. One nice thing is the way it actually tries to grapple with the darker aspects of medieval life instead of the romanticised RenFair setting of a lot of Big Commercial Fantasy.
Personally, I'm recommending a series rather than a book. In the UK, an imprint called Millenium Books is publishing a series of paperback Fantasy Masterworks, some of which you might have heard of, some of which you might not. They're all worth reading if they're distributed in the US.
There's a list of all of them so far at http://www.sfsite.com/lists/orion05.htm
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The Luck of Relian Kru -- Malandanza, 23:04:21 01/15/03 Wed
Paula Volsky's The Luck of Relian Kru is by far the wittiest fantasy novel I have read -- reminiscent of George R. R. Martin's Tuf Voyaging in style (although that book is sci-fi). Sadly, it's out of print so the only Volsky novel you'relikely to find at Borders is The Grand Ellipse which, while it was an interesting idea -- a retelling of Around the World in Eighty Days set in a fantasy world, was far too preachy for my taste.
One of the best series I have read is Glen Cook's Black Company -- a rather dark series. He also wrote the metal series (books like Deadly Quicksilver Lies, Red Iron Nights, Petty Pewter Gods) which seems to be unique in that it is a merger of old Raymond Chandler detective novels with fantasy world -- very funny, fast reads.
If you're in to classics, you might like J.S. LeFanu's short stories -- Carmilla is a good vampire story. Algernon Blackwood's stories tend to horror (a precursor to Lovecraft) rather than fantasy.
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Re: Since we're talkin' books -- Brian, 07:13:25 01/16/03 Thu
My thanks to whomever recommended "The Dark is Rising." I bought the series for my goddaughter and we read it over the Christmas Holidays.
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No-one's mentioned J.V. Jones yet -- BC, 01:38:12 01/17/03 Fri
Her new trilogy is Sword of Shadows - only two parts published so far, both 700 - 800 pages long but they're excellently written, the story gripped me from the start and never flagged, can't wait for the third part.
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I LOVED her 'Book of Words' trilogy!!! -- Rob, 10:12:28 01/18/03 Sat
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Re: Book recommendations needed! -- trilby, 08:27:59 01/17/03 Fri
Hullo, everyone. I'm new here. Has anyone read and/or enjoyed Margaret Mahy's books? She is a New Zealand author, and most of her books are considered YA, but she has a really lovely lyrical writing style, and far more sophisticated than most writers for adults. Some, but not all,of her books are 'fantasy', but often deal with themes of loss and alienation.
Also, Daniel Dennett's 'Consciousness Explained' (cheeky title, that) is a lot of fun to read, his theories are quite intriguing!Perfect for those who think too much.
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I LOVE Margaret Mahy (Attn JULES - here's a NZer for you!) -- Rahael, 09:43:09 01/17/03 Fri
She should be more famous. She is extremely thought provoking and writes incredibly imaginative books, plus she's an excellent writer to boot.
I've recced 'Changeover' to posters here before.
Welcome to the board! You have excellent taste in books and TV shows ;)
I don't know if you noticed, but I think a poster called Jules was asking a day or so ago if there were any other NZers were here.
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Urgh -- Rahael, 09:47:34 01/17/03 Fri
I've fallen ill and I think my brain has also turned into mush. I got the impression you said you were from NZ! Ignore me. I'm going to go lie down now.
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Re: Urgh -- trilby, 13:05:41 01/17/03 Fri
Not a problem! Although I am not from NZ, I spent a month there few years ago; not sure how much that counts for anything! I too, feel Margaret Mahy should be much more well-known than she is. And many thanks for your kind words. I'm quite pleased with them, as I always enjoy your insights on the board. High praise indeed! :)
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Awww. Thank you! -- Rahael, 15:26:07 01/17/03 Fri
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Late for the party and in the wrong dress but - Re: book recommendations -- Rendyl, 11:05:51 01/17/03 Fri
Heya Rob,
If you are pining away for 'Firefly' give 'Santiago' by Mike Resnick a try. It is an easy read you could slip in between some of the mammoth books and series everyone else recommended. It's sci-fi, not fantasy, but Resnick has an odd sense of humor that is fun to read.
On a more Buffy related note you might look for 'The Patchwork Woman'. (can't think of the author) It is very uneven (no pun intended) but it uses some of the 'hero's descent into the underworld to be reborn' myths. Some sections are very good while others just seemed distracting.
Glen Cook's fantasy hard boiled detective series is great. It starts with 'Sweet Silver Blues'. (you kind of need to like the detective genre though)
'The Last Rune series' by Mark Anthony is both very good and then sometimes disappointing. The first book is 'Beyond the Pale'. He is not a bad writer but he does sometimes seem to lose track of all his plots. On the plus side I love the old cowboys. (yes, it is fantasy) They made any shortcomings worth it for me. :)
I would add more but the room is unheated and this is about all the 'brisk' I can do. Happy reading.
Ren
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Michael Marshall Smith -- matching mole, 20:00:47 01/17/03 Fri
At least I think that's his name. Only Forward was the book - read it on vacation. A very interesting and very different sort of urban sf/fantasy. Starts out as a pretty interesting piece of hard-boiled sf noir in a fascinating urban landscape and then changes direction completely in the middle. Full of metanarration from the decidedly imperfect narrator (in true noir style it is told in first person). The ending wasn't as satisfying as the rest of the book but I still recommend it.
Knowing you are a Neil Gaiman fan you might want to try Peter S. Beagle. A veteran if not very prolific writer who is most famous for 'The Last Unicorn'. I'd recommend 'The Innkeeper's Song' or 'Tamsin' in particular.
Also recently re-read a book from my childhood 'The Weirdstone of Bringsamen' (hope I spelled that right) by Alan Garner. This book scared the life out of me when I was a kid. A young adult book from the 60s it does show its age a bit but Garner does have a real knack for immediacy and vividness. The book is highly influenced by Tolkien (or it shares with the Tolkien the strong influence of northern European mythology) but is set in contemporary rural England. Garner really makes you believe that dwarves, goblins, giants, and witches are out there.
Steering clear of the Tolkien and Peake debate.
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Re: Beagle and Garner and... -- Angela, 06:21:55 01/18/03 Sat
Seconding! The Innkeeper's Song is one of the very best books I've ever read and that's saying a piece. Also, Garth Nix (Sabriel)and I love Tim Powers, Delia Marshall Turner, Ellen Kushner and Steven Brust for something lighter...I think it may be Brisingamen and did you read Moon of Gomrath too?
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Roger Zelazny and Michael Moorcock -- Corwin of Amber, 21:06:06 01/17/03 Fri
Try reading the 10 volume Amber chronicles by Roger Zelazny, or least read the first two volumes, Nine Princes in Amber and The Guns of Avalon. For darker fantasy, read anything by Michael Moorcock, in particular the Elric of Melnibone stories.
If Giles is alive... -- Holdemfoldem, 08:54:56 01/15/03 Wed
Ok, time to freshen up old news.
Question: If we assume Giles is alive, (big assumption at this point), then how could he have survived that Bringer's attack?
I realize that something as trivial as having an axe swung at your head and coming within inches of striking home its death blow is something that happens to, and is survived by, someone like myself just about every day. But for most it's not too common an experience! %^)
I'll start things off with a scenario I like alot: Faith jumped in just in the nick of time and kicked the Harbinger's a$$ straight through the goal posts of death! Lots of redeeming potential there for Faith. Then she headed back to LA to help Angel deal with the Apocalypse they have going on there. Later, they'll all rendevous in Sunnydale for the smack down at the end of the season.
Other ideas?
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Re: If Giles is alive...my guess -- masio, 09:00:13 01/15/03 Wed
my guess is the coven---i think they saved him at the last second--or maybe--and i'm just thinking this---maybe he did die, but the coven brought him back from the dead, making him suseptible (that cant be spelled right) to the FE's imitating.
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Re: If Giles is alive... -- Len, 12:37:43 01/15/03 Wed
A greatful Giles gives his dry-cleaner a hefty Xmas bonus for putting TOO MUCH STARCH in the collar (thereby warding off the fateful blow)! :^)
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I think he must be.... -- Helen, 05:01:59 01/17/03 Fri
Is it just me or is death getting a little lame in BtVS? Its kind of lost its sting a little. The only major character that has died and made no guest appearances with a halo is Tara, and we know why that is.
Buffy gets resurrected twice (nearly three times if you think about that bullet in Two to Go), Joyce is dead but appears all floaty, the FE impersonates dead people - great excuse to enable us to see them again - can we have some finality please?
I just hope that Giles is not dead, or else he joins the rosta of lameness above. I still think he apparent non corporality can be explained, on a variation of other suggestions on the board - perhaps rather than being an astral pojection by the coven, Giles has some kind of force field protecting him which means he can't touch things, and is protected (last Watcher, kind of important).
Does anyone agree? anyone at all?
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Preserving this thread -- Masq, 13:04:18 01/16/03 Thu
OK, I hate doing this, but any W/L shippers? (Spoils AtS tonite) -- JM, 19:46:56 01/15/03 Wed
I hate to post and run the risk of pushing my last thread off the board (gosh, I'm an egoist) before I finish my response to Rahael. But it's going really slow. I'm still working on the outline.
So in order to capitalize on tonight: I think it's the end of the sexcapades, darn. I'm pretty sure Lilah loves Wes, but he's had his Epiphany and his AYW, all off screen though, and he kicks her to the curb. But then he goes back for her! He came for her!
He needs to watch his heart. He may miss her more than he thinks.
And also, in other news, how was great was the DD reprise of "get out of my house." Not that I think CC deserved punishment, but great melodrama. And how hurt was Fred when Angel told Cordy to stay behind?
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Me, me!! (HC spoilers) -- Rob, 20:52:31 01/15/03 Wed
And I'm not so sure it's over. Or at least maybe the sex-capades are. But I'm getting the feeling that their feelings for each other are...gasp!...growing deeper. When Lilah stopped Wes and told him about Connor, I think that really touched him. She was more human in that small moment than she ever has been before. And I think that he might go back to her because of that, but perhaps seek a deeper relationship.
Rob
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Me, too! Also, Trollops, help me out! (spoilers for 4.8) -- Scroll, 21:16:47 01/15/03 Wed
I'm a huge Wes/Lilah fan; they're the couple that really makes me believe on Angel. I agree that the sex-capades are probably over (darn) but maybe it will be start of something better... an actual friendship, even.
That moment in the sewers just before Lilah tells Wes about Connor, I had the distinct impression she wanted to tell him she loved him. SR was simply brilliant here in conveying Lilah's longing to confess and her struggle to surpress her true feelings. I could see the turmoil: "Do I tell him?" "No, he doesn't want to hear it, why embarrass myself?" Then when she does speak, and warns him about Connor, it seemed like a confession of love after all, though the words are different.
BTW, when I say Lilah loves Wesley, I'm not saying she has lost any of her selfish tendencies. She really does care and worry about him, but I'm not convinced she's ready to give up her status as W&H's top-dog just yet. Which brings me to begging...
Trollops! I need help! Can anyone tell me if Lilah will return, or was this her very last episode? If anyone can tell me, please just answer "Yes, Lilah will return" or "No, she won't" in the body of a post (not in the header, I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone else). Thank you in advance!
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You rang? (Spoiler answer) -- deeva, trollop #69, 22:21:33 01/15/03 Wed
Yes and no. Mwahahahaha! What did you expect? I'm a trollop.
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Argh! That's just cruel, deeva! -- Scroll, 23:37:33 01/15/03 Wed
But it's okay, you don't have to explain. I don't really want to get spoiled and I have a feeling I would get spoiled if I asked for further clarification on your non-answer! Thanks anyway...
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Still trying to figure out how Deeva came up with her trollop number.....;) -- Rufus, 05:14:00 01/16/03 Thu
In Habeas Corpses I felt sorry for Lilah for the fist time....she fell in love with a guy who can only love another...no costumes will change that fact as Wesley pointed out when he told her not to embarrass herself. The viscious bitch does have a bit of a ooey gooey center, it's just hard to get to it.....though The Beast seemed to have attemped a crude short-cut...;)
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Well, Rufus I figured that you are trollop #1 -- Deeva, 08:20:21 01/16/03 Thu
and in more ways than just one! Also the numbers between 1-69 are not so exciting. Yeesh, I need another hobby if I'm analyzing "exciting" numbers.
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Trust me (hah!) it's better this way. -- Deeva, 08:22:29 01/16/03 Thu
Just cause I'm a trollop doesn't mean I'm actively recruiting. Besides, I'm not wrong in my answer. heh-heh
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I think I'm approaching B/S- level fanaticism here... -- cjl, 21:21:02 01/15/03 Wed
It's just as shadowkat and others have said: W/L is the gender inverse of B/S. Tortured, but in the end morally upright hero engages in destructive relationship with vastly entertaining, sexy, but eeeevil bedmate--who turns out to be more redeemable than we thought.
When is Lilah going to Africa to get her soul?
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Re: I think I'm approaching B/S- level fanaticism here... -- shadowkat, 07:49:14 01/16/03 Thu
When is Lilah going to Africa to get her soul?
I think sometime after almost getting turned into a zombie by the Beast? Or more to the point is she now going to rediscover it and decide maybe like Gunn - she can buy her's back??
Odd thing about souls on Ats - they seem to be sellable commodities. You keep it but someone else has ownership.
Yep - in case you haven't figured it out yet? W/L shipper too, more or less. Don't know what this says about me - but for some reason I prefer the sexy villain/hero relationships on tv to the hero/hero ones. The former are just well more interesting. I mean think about it: there's the suspense on whether they should get together, whether they should part, what happens if they get together, what the one party will do if they part, If the villain will be redeemed by the hero's love, will the hero fall in with the villain and become a bad guy? The questions are endless.
A hero/hero relationship? Well there's really only two questions? Can they make it work? What will break them up?
Yawn. Give me the other one any day. Same thing with villain/villain - two questions: can they make it work? what will break them up? So much more fun to "watch" the conflict created by opposites.
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Don't redeem Lilah -- Masq, 09:03:33 01/16/03 Thu
So much more fun to "watch" the conflict created by opposites.
This is why Buffy and Spike are getting boring now. Spike is becoming that redeemed, "I'll hold out forever against the forces of evil until the Slayer saves me" guy. The villian-hero thing isn't in their relationship anymore. It hasn't been since "Intervention".
This is why I Don't want to see Lilah redeemed. Boring!
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She could be redeemed a little... -- Scroll, 09:23:01 01/16/03 Thu
I don't want her to completely switch sides either. She doesn't need to go to Africa; but I would love to see her risk something for Wesley's sake, while still working for and rebuilding W&H. Clearly the feelings on both sides are deeper than either will admit. I love the understated approach to this relationship; sure, the sex-capades were fun but what I love best about the Wes/Lilah relationship is the chess games, the intelligence, the small glimpses of vulnerability. Lilah doesn't need to become a White Hat to continue her relationship with Wes; she just needs to mix a little white into her black to make grey. A very dark grey. :)
While I was kind of interested in Spike's story earlier this season, the past couple of eps haven't really made me that interested in him. He's just a vamp who has a soul, tied up in FE's lair. I already have a vamp with a soul who's out kicking butt and being snarky.
Well, I'll just have to wait until next week to see what happens to Spike. But really, I'm more interested in what happens to Angel, Connor, Wes, Lilah, and maybe Gunn/Fred. (I'm too irritated by Cordelia right now to care about her.)
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Re: She could be redeemed a little... -- shadowkat, 14:22:28 01/16/03 Thu
Agree a little on Lilah - don't want a big redemption storyline. Actually I really really don't want to see Angel ever get redeemed assuming he hasn't been already. Don't shanshu Angel - he's more interesting unhappy and vampire.
(We've seen human Angel already.)
See? Totally subjective view.
Character shipping and relationshipping brings out the worst in us, methinks. Nothing can get me more riled up than someone posting how they hope Spike never gets redeemed or that Spike is boring or (to make me really see red) Spike is a weak character with no personality. Or even worse the suggestion that they will kill him off and I won't ever see him again - assuming this isn't the last year and/or we don't have a spinoff. If it is? Won't be so bad. Spike goes? I go!(Imagine if someone suggested killing Angel) I want to launch into an idiotic rant and throw stuff. sigh. I usually delete the response and just ignore the poster for awhile. LOL! ugh. Repeat to myself - it is just a tv show, and will like all tv shows disappoint eventually, just a tv show...
To show you how incredibly shallow I am ( voy ate all my other responses to this maybe it will eat this too and I won't lose everyone's respect for admitting this, coward that I am)...I've watched Btvs for three main reasons since Season 1:
Angel/Angelus, Spike, and Giles. Yep.
And I now watch Ats for one main reason: Weseley. (I'm losing interest in Angel for some reason...very weird..the guy just has lost his allure for me. I think they told me too much.).
Sigh. Now you've no doubt lost all respect for me and won't read me again. ;-)
Now as far as female characters go - my fav's are Fred, Willow, Lilah and Faith. Also sort of like Anya.
Buffy & SMG - have love/hate relationship with.
Can I explain why i have these preferences...ehhh maybe.
Personally I think I just relate to them more.
Spike's redemption and ongoing life in the series is for reasons I can't quite explain incredibly important to me. On a level that makes me wonder if I'm completely nuts. Well probably. Why this is? Couldn't tell you. But I'm on the edge of my seat every week wondering what they'll do with Spike. In Ats - I'm on the edge of my seat wondering what they'll do with Wes. (Was terrified they'd kill him and Lilah last night.)
sigh. Different strokes for different folks. Oh well at least we aren't arguing about politics...Now with any luck voy will eat this before it goes or you guys just won't see it. ;-)
(This I promise is the last pure opinion post I make...well I hope.) SK
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Pure opinion -- Scroll, 22:20:52 01/16/03 Thu
Oh, I wasn't trying to bash Spike. I don't want him dead or evil, I just don't really care about him right now. Same with Cordelia. They're both still integral to the storylines -- perhaps the most important/pivotal characters at the moment. But I can't relate to them, and I don't really want to. I've got enough on my plate keeping up with Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Xander, Giles, Anya, and Kennedy, not to mention Wesley, Lilah, Angel, Connor, Fred, and Gunn. Just too many characters to worry about... :)
Don't worry, s'kat, there's no way I'll lose respect for you or stop reading your posts! The way you feel about Spike is how I feel about Wesley (and surprisingly enough, Buffy). True, we shouldn't let personal opinion sway our episode analyses too much; still, I can't imagine totally separating my personal tastes from my critical examinations. Though I admit my above post wasn't an analysis so much as me cheering Grey!Lilah.
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Thank you -- Doriander, 09:27:06 01/16/03 Thu
And I've lost enough beloved characters to redemption on this show (Doyle, Darla, Lindsey, Faith on hiatus, and to some extent Kate). Explore, reveal, develop her her character, just steer clear of epiphanies.
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LOL! -- shadowkat, 13:58:48 01/16/03 Thu
Yep...redeem someone on ATs and they die. Let's look at Cordy - she seems to get all redeemed and off she goes.
Darla dies. Lindsey rides off into the sunset. Faith ends up in prison never heard from again.
I don't want to see her redeemed either if they do that.
Actually come to think of it? I remain unconvinced these writers are really into or believe in redeeming anyone.
But maybe that's just me. ;-) SK
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Re: Me, me!! (HC spoilers) -- JM, 21:53:42 01/15/03 Wed
I thought that telling him about Connor was her "I love you" moment. She knows she's evil, he knows she's evil. Now she knows that whatever she is, or says, or does, he did come for her, and her alone, whatever. She knows that.
She gives him a gift, without purchase, and I think he understands that. What she revealed with no purpose said so much more than a valentine ever could have. Even more than her hundred messages.
Please let them meet again.
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Eeeikes! -- Flo, 23:09:56 01/15/03 Wed
I definitely fall into the W/L shipper category, but I get nervous here. Wesley's status as "good guy," whatever that might mean, is so edgy these days -- I'm not sure if staying with Lilah would inspire him to come out of the dark and create redemption, or if it would just throw him over the cliffs of insanity. In comparison to B/S (nice idea, cjl), the W/L relationship lacks a history of working together. Also, where Buffy has a family of friends to support her in her life, Wesley and Lilah both are outcasts relying solely on each other for... I'm not sure what.
Anyway, I, too, want to see more of W/L -- I just get the eebie jeebies about it.
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On the other hand... -- KdS, 02:18:44 01/16/03 Thu
Even at his worst, Wes was far more clear headed about what was going on than Buffy, and Lilah actually has a soul stuffed in the attic somewhere, so I wouldn't give up hope...
On the other hand, this is ME, so give up hope ;-)
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Yes! Yes! -- ponygirl, 06:57:02 01/16/03 Thu
W/L is what keeps me glued to the screen for AtS. Not that I think it's going to end well, or that Wesley really does love Lilah. I believe she loves him, and he knows it, but whether he is acting out of a very mature sense of obligation to a person who loves him or something more I don't know. In any case it is the wonderfully adult nature of their relationship that I love. Here are two people who are so guarded with their hearts that they may never be able to express anything more than a simple nod of acknowledgement to each other. But so much in that nod! And how great was Lilah's shades of gray speech? It starts out as a reprise of AYW, but Lilah holds her own, and manages to sum up so much of we've been talking about for ages.
Here's another question. Wes may think he's in love with Fred, but how many people think that after Lilah he'd be bored silly by Fred's relatively uncomplicated nature? I'm waving my hand.
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Yes! Yes! and more Yes! -- Caroline, 07:15:50 01/16/03 Thu
I completely agree with you ponygirl and everyone else about the importance of the W/L relationship to Ats right now. Fred is to Wesley what Angel is to Buffy - a dear, sweet, naive, innocent and pure dream which is completely ungrounded in any type of reality whereas W/L is wary, complex, guarded, vulnerable and more intensely psychologically real. And Wes would be bored silly by Fred after Lilah. Here's hoping for more, more, more of W/L (yes, I love disco music).
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Re: Yes! Yes! -- Doriander, 09:05:48 01/16/03 Thu
W/L is what keeps me glued to the screen for AtS. Not that I think it's going to end well, or that Wesley really does love Lilah. I believe she loves him, and he knows it, but whether he is acting out of a very mature sense of obligation to a person who loves him or something more I don't know. In any case it is the wonderfully adult nature of their relationship that I love. Here are two people who are so guarded with their hearts that they may never be able to express anything more than a simple nod of acknowledgement to each other. But so much in that nod! And how great was Lilah's shades of gray speech? It starts out as a reprise of AYW, but Lilah holds her own, and manages to sum up so much of we've been talking about for ages.
Here's another question. Wes may think he's in love with Fred, but how many people think that after Lilah he'd be bored silly by Fred's relatively uncomplicated nature? I'm waving my hand.
Does that explain why I was pretty much passive after the tunnel scene? I'm getting a little weary of the L/W/F/G rectangle but if it keeps the L/W dynamic this interesting, carry on. I have to say though, when it comes to pacing, photography, score, stunts, AtS is superior to its sister show, which puzzles me considering BtVS supposedly costs more.
*sigh* Lilah kills me. Wes kills me. These two have made a born again shipper out of me (who got burned by the the disbandment of the vamp set's Sid and Nancy, the Jossverse take on Louis and Lestat, and Sunnydale's resident Jay and Silent Bob). What's the perfunctory tag for these two then, Jossverse's Valmont and Merteuil (or was that Angel/Darla)?
I'm bracing myself for more delicious angst.
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I'll see your Yes and raise you a YesYes! -- Scroll, 10:22:55 01/16/03 Thu
As much as I like Fred (she's grown on me lately), I really do think Wesley's infatuation of her is just that: an infatuation of an ideal. Fred is what/who Wesley feels he should be with. While he acknowledges her need for vengeance in "Supersymmetry", he still sees Fred as a good, innocent, gentle, and intelligent girl. In fact, Fred is very much like how Wesley used to be, even down to the glasses.
But I think Wesley has changed too much to be truly happy or satisfied with Fred -- not to mention I can't believe Wes would be cad enough to take his (ex-)best friend's girlfriend. Lilah keeps him on his toes; she may not be in Wes and Fred's league IQ-wise but she is very intelligent, cunning, and ruthless. Very much like Dark!Wesley. They're a good match in many ways, though I doubt Wesley would ever ask Lilah to fly to England with him. :) In fact, part of the draw of W/L is that we know their relationship can't last much longer. There's something to be said for the fleeting beauty of a temporary relationship, at least on TV.
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does anyone really love fred? -- Flo, 15:28:40 01/16/03 Thu
I mean, romantically love her? It seems that Wesley and Gunn are so interested in possessing her, I don't know how much either of them really LOVES her. Wesley, as many of you have pointed out, pretty much just holds her as an ideal and likely won't actually try to rescue his princess from the tower he's got her in. Gunn -- I've seen him really showing genuine love for her, but lately it seems that he is far more driven by winning her as a prize than actually seeing her for who see is, connecting with her, etc. Just my dime.
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I love Fred...if that counts for anything. ;o) -- Rob, 16:15:35 01/16/03 Thu
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Re: does anyone really love fred? -- JM, 19:29:25 01/16/03 Thu
Posted this at TWoP
"About Wes and Fred. I think that he was carrying the torch through Spin the Bottle, but he may not be anymore. He may have just recently realized he's not anymore. He was so intense in the retrieval scene, "Stay with me." I think he was wondering if Lilah was going to confess her love in the sewer as well as us. Who knows how he would have responded?
I think he captured what he's really feeling in the scene where the warriors first limp back to the hotel. The whole bit about "No one likes loosing." It's the rejection, not the romantic idealization that still provides the sting."
PS About Gunn, he's going to have problems until he starts treating her more like an adult, not as a projection of purity and idealized emotions. Fred's right, it wasn't his choice to make. And he's eased her burden not at all. Luckily she didn't mean to be gone so long. There may be hope after all.
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