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Who's to blame? (Spoilers through 'Showtime' -- trebor, 23:24:48 01/07/03 Tue

Spoilers through Showtime.
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After watching the episode, I got to thinking. As Giles and Anya were talking to the Eye, it was set that the FE has this opportunity to raise hell because of the imbalance between good and evil. Anya quickly assumes that it's the fault of her, Willow, Xander and Tara. However, isn't this actually the fault of Xander alone?

Are we being baited into thinking that Anya and Willow will have more fault in this, even though it was Xander who brought her back from the dead the first time at the end of S1? Any other thoughts.

Just a quick hitter before bedtime.
[> Well, then the question would be-- -- HonorH, 23:35:41 01/07/03 Tue

Why has the First waited this long? It's been six years since Buffy's drowning. It's only been one since her resurrection. The First even made an appearance in S3--was it still in the planning stages then? Just how slow a mover *is* the First?

Not to say these questions don't have answers. Just saying they *need* to be answered before we can blame anyone.
[> [> Re: Well, then the question would be-- -- trebor, 00:11:21 01/08/03 Wed

I'm gonna try a (semi-long) basic answer with this one.

In season two, the FE could have made it's move, but while there was an imbalance, it didn't quite know what to do with it initially. Then, you have Angelus returning, with the promise of an armageddon. The FE would be content with this at this point, not interfering as hell is expected to break loose. Buffy is able to stop Angelus, but in the process, drives herself out of Sunnydale. A win for the FE, balance technically resides in it's favor, as the Scoobies are left fighting in Sunnydale.

In season 3, though Buffy returns, we have the potential ascension. True Demon, nothing more evil could live on this plane. Further turning the tide, is the darkness that comes over Faith. Moving the Slayer line towards evil certainly tips the balance again to the side of Evil. In the end, the Mayor is beaten, and Faith is rendered comatose, still ending the slayer line here.

Season 4 comes. Buffy isn't slaying like she did before. She's distracted by college and all the changes among her friends. There's what really comes across as an unexplainable evil in Adam. We see the first real division in the Scooby Gang, before uniting to call the First Slayer. We're given the return of Spike, a nemesis from the past, who still can feel the presence of evil, yet can't act on it. Things appear to be resolved, but as we all know, once there's division, you can not go back to the way things were. This is a small edge towards the FE, knowing there will always be division now among the Scoobies.

We reach Season 5. Buffy reaches to discover the meaning of her power. We meet the energetic sister, Dawn. Willow and Xander seem to get more comfortable in their lives outside of the Scoobies. Yet we meet the most powerful evil ever, a God. A God who brings out darkness in Willow, a resolution in Spike, a dangerous path for Xander and Anya, and the death (again) of Buffy. It ultimately drives the "brains" away from the scoobies, as this is the reason Giles initially leaves for home. Also, at this point, Faith has gone to prison, again, limiting the Slayer line. A heavy advantage to the side of Evil.

Which leads us to last season, which, I think we all agree, was anything but happy, and convincing of the FE to make a move to end the balance. It was heavy on the Dark Side. There is almost nothing positive about it... until the end. Buffy resolves to fight, and teach her sister as what would be a potential slayer. Xander saves the day, bringing a real dark power back to the light. Spike, for love if nothing else, becomes souled. Anya may be evil, but we now see that her soul wasn't into revenge anymore. The First, it appears, can take nothing from the end. The balance has turned towards good again, as it appears the ranks are growing stronger, especially if Willow is able to use her powers for good.

Which brings us to this season. As we start the season, Spike is nuts in the basement, but surely can NOT do harm on his own. Anya is useless as a vengeance demon. Xander is in charge, but in reality, is of no threat as a human with no powers. Dawn is being trained to fight, but we have no clues as to what kind of powers she may possess (she is still, technically, energy). Willow is being trained to control her powers, with Giles as the brains again, teaching. The Scoobies are soon to be more powerful, and while there is still potential for division, they appear to have grown and matured through all they'd been through for 6 years, and what they've learned since division the last 2 years to finally pose a threat to tip the balance towards the side of good once and for all.

Enter the First Evil. The window has always been open, but now was the only sensible time to take advantage.

All in my humble opinion of course.

Now I really need sleep.

treb
[> [> [> Re: Well, then the question would be -- Briar Rose, 00:39:28 01/08/03 Wed

I didn't take it as having anything to do with Buffy's death at all - more that Anya would take it as such. Anya is the most self absorbed of the Scoobies outwardly.... regardless of the recently posted and interesting Self Absorbtion Quotas by character. So it makes sense that she sees it as an action that she had a part in. That's Anya.

I am not so sure that is the reason. It would seem more that the FE is preying on the fact that Buffy and Faith are both incapacitated by an ability to see gray where before they only saw black and white. That was happening regardless of Buffy's death in "The Gift." Faith found it before buffy died as well, with Angel in LA and then in Jail.

My take is more simply quantitative mathematics: Buffy has outlived all the other Slayers in the lineage, or so we are told in the story. She actually made it past her 18th birthday, let alone her 21st.

That would surely cause shifts in her mental and emotional perceptions that had never happened before in a Slayer, and may never happen again. Slayers arent SUPPOSED to grow up and learn the hard lessons of life. They are 'crunch us all you like, we'll make more' disposable grunts. Perpetually child like and innocent and not matured.

The First would HAVE to try to come through while The Slayers are BOTH at a disadvantage; Buffy seeing that the world is not going to become more black and white even if she so desires and Faith behind bars, thus probably throwing off a new Slayer being called if Buffy does die.

And to make his bid to return even more possible, he decides to take out the SITs that might give him a run for his money later. Killing techniques have sure improved in the last 100 or so years, not to mention the information age has made the ability to track, catalog and research ways to destroy evil a blink of an eye proposition compared to hand written accounts and snail mail/fax person to person as just ten or 20 years ago.*S*

You noticed that The Eye did not specify that it was BUFFY the Vampire Slayer that the FE was tuned into, right?~w~
[> [> [> [> Re: Well, then the question would be -- Mystery, 07:36:52 01/08/03 Wed

Buffy has outlived all the other Slayers in the lineage, or so we are told in the story. She actually made it past her 18th birthday, let alone her 21st.

Hmmm...I just thought about that "test" that was given to her.

Quentin: Cruciamentum is not easy... for Slayer or Watcher. But it's been done this way for a dozen centuries. Whenever a Slayer turns eighteen. It's a time-honored rite of passage.

Is it time honored because the majority of the time it kills off the Slayer completely and allows the power to pass to a younger Slayer?
[> [> [> [> [> That has always been my guess. ;) -- Briar Rose, 16:58:04 01/08/03 Wed

IF they can make it to 18 in the first place... The Watcher's Council almost guarantees that they won't make it past that. Didn't Quentin basically say that it had only been necessary a handful of times over the long history of Slayer and the Counsil as well?

One thing that the Counsil has always stood for in the Joss-verse(IMOO) is the oppression of the personal ego/power for what they perceive as the greater good. To them the Slayer is simply a tool. She is not supposed to think, she is supposed to act and then only at their bidding & in their way.

This was how I always saw the Counsil's disrespect of Gile's methods. He allowed Buffy's inner strength in ALL ways, even when that meant letting her call the shots and make the plans, tho' they didn't always jive with his ideas.

To contrast this, we had the introduction of Wesley Windham Price. THE consummate Watcher in the Council's Opinion. Wesley tried to tell Faith and Buffy exactly who to fight, how to fight them and expected absolutely no thought from either of his delegated blood bags. Until he found out that his theories on how to win were pretty darn useless, having absolutely no experience with the reality of it.*L

In their own way, the Counsil always treated the Slayer as Vampires' treat their victims, IMO: Warm Able Bodies. There to keep the Counsil (and the world) alive and breathing.

The Counsil just couched it in terms of a Jihad, not the basest motive the Vampires admitted to upfront; We kill to survive.

The Counsil kills Slayers to win the war. In other words, they kill Slayers so the human world can survive.

It may not be quite as dreadful a theory... But either way it is the willingness to sacrifice another's life for your own.

A young and self-awareness deprived body is required to provide the best warrior. Also why governments want young guns on the front line. Get them before they realize that questioning what they're doing is not only an option, but desirable in the most heavily vague war situations. That way you can control them.
[> [> [> [> [> Like a virgin -- luna, 19:23:18 01/08/03 Wed

that was part of so many medieval stories--the power of the virgin, that is. Virgin was probably often same as young, in the past. But in Fool for Love there were a few other slayers who appeared less than virginal, so probably that's not it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Psychic energy and telekenisis and power and virginity..... -- Briar Rose, 02:31:20 01/09/03 Thu

I should have added this before - but was more focused on the Counsil Bad thingy.*L

There is a belief in metaphysical theology that a young woman who has just reached puberty is strongest in her elemental powers. This means that not only is she highly strengthened physically, but she also has a higher amount of psychic energy and sexual energy waiting to be tapped into.

This has been traced to occurances of telekenisis and psychic telepathy increasing in young women between the age of around 11 and 16. When they are going through the prime years of their hormonal changes and puberty.

This is also when it is believed by some that poltergeist activity will most likely attach to children of both sexes. The malestrom of chemical changes between puberty and physical maturity can open the young adult up to forces from beyond for good or bad.

So the idea of the power of "the Virgin" is not that far off as luna said. That power has been ascribed to many aspects of young woman hood. So it also fits that the energy is pure and strong at that "magic" age whether it's about psychic or physical or sexual energy. All are interrelated in the metaphysical world.
[> [> [> Nicely done -- works for me. -- yez, 13:43:05 01/08/03 Wed

[> Re: Who's to blame? (Spoilers through 'Showtime' -- Mystery, 07:29:51 01/08/03 Wed

I think it was the second death that did it. The first death was natural (drowning) and her resurrection was also natural (CPR). The second death was through magic (closing the Dawn-gate) and the second resurrection was through magic (Petitioning Osiris).

Also if you think about it, the first death of Buffy was only for a minute. It was long enough to pass some of the power over to Kendra, then Faith. But not the full strength, which is why Kendra was killed so quickly and Faith was more susceptible to giving in to the darker aspect of the Slayer. Buffy's second death was for months. The power of the Slayer probably passed all the way to Faith. Buffy coming back the second time, after the Slayer Power went over to Faith, probably confused the Power and now it's going in the wrong direction. And because the Slayer Power is confused, the First Evil was able to slip in directly.

Also another thing that we can consider, is that the First Evil didn't start making noise until after Spike got a soul. Spike getting a soul is the direct result of twice resurrected Buffy. I'm wondering if the vampire with a soul is some kind of important catalyst for the First Evil. Because there's the tie to evil that all vampires have, yet the soul that ties Angel and Spike to humanity.
[> [> Re: Who's to blame? (Spoilers through 'Showtime' -- Kenny, 08:02:19 01/08/03 Wed

I think it may be even more simple than that. The first time we saw FE, in season 3, the monks had to do the chanting thing to keep it around. As it was in Giles' books, it's been done before, so Slayer death/rebirth probably had nothing to do with that one.

This time, FE is around without MonkChanting. That's because of Buffy's second resurrection. You may be right that it was because of being brought back by magical means. If anything, I'd guess that her first resurrection was intended, so it didn't disrupt the natural flow of things. The second, however, was because of some mortals taking power for themselves that they weren't supposed to have.

I don't think it has anything to do with slayer energies. By that reasoning, Buffy herself has only been working with possible slayer energies, so she should being doing as well as she has. I don't think there's any real evidence of a "set" slayer energy that's shared between all slayers.
[> Re: Who's to blame? (Spoilers through 'Showtime' -- Lyonors, 08:44:38 01/08/03 Wed

Wow...I am really surprised that someone else hasn't posted this theory to this thread yet. I am of the theory that the inbalance is because of Dawn. Hear me out, I am going to try to make sense of this. Dawn was made from Buffy...in a sense a double of Buffy...a two-for-one if you will...thereby tipping the scales to their side. And for the record, I am not so sure that the FE meant Buffy when it told the ubervamp to kill everyone, but "her". Whose to say it didn't mean Dawn? or anyone else for that matter.

Ly.
[> [> THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING!! (spec) -- Rob, 08:59:11 01/08/03 Wed

They asked the eye whose fault it was. He said, "The Slayer." A little later he said "Because she lives."

Perhaps this "she" is not the Slayer, but Dawn. It seems the "she" would refer to Buffy, because it was used right after, but it might not. The Slayer is to blame, because Dawn is still alive. Perhaps Dawn was meant to die at the hands of Glory? Perhaps problems are being created because the key has been allowed to remain dormant, in the body of a teenage girl? Any thoughts, people?!?

Rob
[> [> [> Showtime spoilers in my above post. -- Rob, 09:00:39 01/08/03 Wed

[> [> [> A little spec, a little Showtime spoilers -- Arethusa, 09:13:50 01/08/03 Wed

But that would mean that Glory was meant to escape from her meat prison and try to kill Dawn to get home. Why would the monks create that situation?
Maybe the slayer is meant to be drawn to and stay at the Hellmouth? Otherwise, what's to keep her from running off to Fiji or Tibet or Lubbock? Maybe the slayer's very presence helps keep the lid on the Hellmouth, and Faith's absence, created by Buffy's resurrection, is weakening the bonds that kept the FE on the other side of Hell's door.
[> [> [> [> Re: A little spec, a little Showtime spoilers -- Lyonors, 09:23:45 01/08/03 Wed

>>But that would mean that Glory was meant to escape from her meat prison and try to kill Dawn to get home. Why would the monks create that situation?<<

I don't think the monks would have been aware of creating that kind of situation. They had a bit of tunnel vision: Gotta keep the key from the Beast. I dont think they realized that in creating Dawn from Buffy that it would cause an inbalance, in their estimation, they were making her from the human part of Buffy, not the slayer part, so they wouldnt even be thinking that far ahead. I really hope I am making sense...cos wow...people have responded to me! hehe doesnt happen often!

Ly.
[> [> [> Beg to differ... -- Sofdog, 10:58:11 01/08/03 Wed

First, I have to disagree with the idea that Dawn was meant to die in "The Gift." Clearly Buffy's sacrifice was predestined. The clues have been dropping since at least Season 3. All of the messages Buffy received led her to understand that her death was the third option between Dawn's death or the annihilation of all realms.

Also, isn't Dawn The Key. Not that The Key resides within her. It's what she is. The monk in "No Place Like Home" said that they made The Key flesh and gave it memories. She isn't dormant, Dawn's just isn't being used for her ultimate purpose. Which is a good.

Just some thoughts.
[> [> Except... -- ponygirl, 09:19:50 01/08/03 Wed

... that the Harbringer in NLM looked pretty ready to kill Dawn. Of course that could just be a case of good minions are hard to find.
[> Re: Who's to blame? (Spoilers through 'Showtime' -- trebor, 10:26:11 01/08/03 Wed

The FE is worried about the balance, but seems to accept the fact that there is one Slayer... no matter what, there is still more evil than good.

But, when that Slayer dies and another is called, then the FE might have a problem. When the souled vampire is returned to this dimension, apparently because of prophecies found to bring good, there's more of a problem. When this souled vampire rejects the FE's first attempts to kill Buffy, then himself, the side is now stacked with Three Champions on the side of good. While Faith soon turns bad and is eventually prison bound, we're met with a very powerful wicca-witch. The souled vampire soon leaves the Dale, but is replaced by a vampire who can't fight FOR evil, but can fight the demons called by evil. We're back to one Champion, but at least two allies with supernatural abilites. Now we enter the "sister", the mystical energy. A potential slayer? Perhaps. What if she focused what power she may have in other directions?

All this time, a human has found his place in the gang. A fighter, he's done more than his share to help disturb the balance. The side of good, just in the Dale, now calls a Slayer, a being made from that slayer, a very powerful witch, a Vampire who can't fight good, but can hurt evil, a strong willed human who has few fears at this point, and an ex demon with centuries of knowledge.

The First is still content with this. The witch is afraid to use her powers. Dawn still doesn't know what her calling is. Xander is still human, no powers of his own, just heart and powerful friends. The Slayer isn't her slayerself. The ex-Demon proves almost little use for the Scoobies. And the Slayer and Vampire are off not fighting evil, but, well, you know.

The jilted Vampire goes for a soul. There seems to be harmony among the Scoobies again. It wasn't the creating of Dawn, the souled Spike, the fact that there's two slayers near Sunnydale. It's all of these facts combined that the FE senses is turning the balance between good and bad towards the side of good.

Which leads me to my original thought. The constant in this has been Xander. He's been the truest character, never really straying from what he believed, (except, possibly, about Anya).

It's not Xander's nature to really BE the Big Bad. But, by reviving a dead Buffy at the end of Season 1 (back to the beginning?), Xander is responsible, unknowingly, for setting of a chain of events that has led us to this point in time.
[> Following That Logic... -- BEV, 14:27:33 01/08/03 Wed

Trebor,

You are basically saying that Xander is to blame for the current conundrum, because he is what Aristotle would've called the "efficient cause" of Buffy's continued being. An efficient cause is "the primary source of change or coming to rest in a thing." So, if I follow you, you are saying that Xander's breathing life into Buffy in the master's pool is the primary cause of a change in Buffy, namely her moving from non-being (death) to being (life).

So that, if we charted Xander's causality it might like what follows:

Terms

X= Xander
B= Buffy
C= Cause
E= Effect
T= Time

T1 (Harvest)
|
X-C1 (CPR)
/\
B- E1 (Buffy lives)
|
B (t2) - E2 (Judge defeated)
|
B (t3)- E3 (Mayor defeated)

Where every link in the successive chain, would lead one back to Xander Harris. Very well then.

If this is in fact your case, we can also say the following with certainty.

1.) not only did Xander cause the current troubles (as their efficient cause) but he also has saved the world on several occasions. From the Harvest, which he most directly averted, to the opening of the Gloryverse, to Kingman's Bluff, and everything in between. In this case he is the ultimate reason why any world exists at all and the denizens of SD and the Buffyverse should thank heaven for him, he is a truly great hero.

2.) Not only is Xander Buffy's "efficient cause" but so are all the scoobies, including Angel, and Spike, and anyone who has ever helped Buffy out of a life or death jam--and therefore inadvertantly become the efficient cause of her continued being themselves.

And certainly we cannot leave out Hank and Joyce Summers, Who are her parents, and therefore not only her most direct efficient causes but also her Final, and Material causes. And what about their parents? What about the people who introduced HanK and Joyce? What about the parents of the people who introduced Hank and Joyce? The list of efficient causes goes on and on ad infinitum. There are literally thousands, in not millions, of unnamed folks, if your logic holds, "to blame."

No man it seems, is an Island (as Donne said).

I tender the notion that no one is "to blame", or if anyone is to blame, it is the FE and let the blame rest there. Humans have neither the foresight, nor the long lifespans to see how the smallest choices in their lives might shape the world. Why blame them, then, for the events this knowledge could've spared?

***Note: The argument above is a variation on a technical form known by its Latin name "reductio ad absurdum". I have assumed Trebors premises and argued them to ridiculous and/or trivial ends. If anyone is interested in learning more about this method of argumentation, please sign up for adult, or traditional, philosophy classes at your local institution of higher learning. This note has been a message from the Philosophy Majors of America, changing the world one thought at a time:)
[> [> Re: Following That Logic... -- trebor, 21:32:29 01/08/03 Wed

I had to reread this a few times before my reply, and I'm going to probably struggle to make this point.

The question I ask, is how much of this would have happened had Buffy not been revived? My philosophy is more than rusty, but it seems to me, that had Buffy stayed dead, initially, then...

The Master opens the Hellmouth. Everyone is likely dead, but, let's say Kendra comes to the hellmouth to kill the Master. But... Angel never loses his soul, and never is tempted to open the tomb of Acathla. The Mayor reaches his Ascension and likely wipes out Sunnydale. Angel has no reason to leave for L.A., Willow has no reason to pursue her wicca studies, etc. Dawn is not created in this slayer's image, and is likely sent elsewhere for protection.

Can we argue the causality of all of this or not? Again, I'm not positive, so I'll end this here.
[> Re: Who's to blame? (Spoilers through 'Showtime' -- Yoda, 15:02:26 01/08/03 Wed

Beljoxa's Eye told Giles & Anya that the Slayer was responsible for the disruption of the mystical forces surrounding the chosen line causing them to become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable. There are many theories on exactly what caused this disruption.

Some have speculated that it was Buffy's death or resurrection that caused this disruption. But I don't think you can blame Buffy for that. You would have to give the credit or blame to Xander and the SG for those.

Spike getting a soul is also something that some think Buffy is responsible for and may be the reason for the disruption. While I think that Buffy was the catalyst in Spike seeking a soul, ultimately the choice was Spikes not Buffys.

So what has Buffy done that you couldn't blame on anyone else? The thing that jumps out at me is her jumping into the portal in The Gift. It should have been Dawn. She was the key. It was her blood that was needed to close the portal.

Instead Buffy jumps. I think Buffy's blood was enough like Dawns to close the portal but she is not the key. She couldn't lock the door and maybe the door is slowly opening and we have been seeing seepage since then. Alternate realities bleeding into each other spiraling faster and faster towards Chaos.

If that is what is happening, then maybe we are seeing the alternate Buffyverse realities bleeding into each other. That would explain why Buffy & others have acted so out of character at times. We are seeing alternate reality versions of themselves.

In Normal Again Buffy is made aware of one of these alternate realities. She believed one was real and one wasn't. But I think both realities were real. That would explain why we have never heard of Buffy being in a psychiatric ward until Normal Again. In our reality Buffy had never been in a psychiatric ward but in an alternate reality she was and still is. Her memories from two different realities are bleeding into each other.

This would also explain Spike's speaking to people who aren't there. He may actually be able to see people in the alternate realities. Much like we saw in Same Time Same Place. In fact, some of the visions of Spike speaking to Buffy which we assumed was the FE may in fact have been an alternate reality Buffy.

This theory would also explain Buffy's inexplicable weakness in the Seeing Red AR. This could have been the alternate reality version of Buffy where she is just a normal girl (not a Slayer). That would explain why she seemed so weak.

This bleeding of realities would also explain why time has been so wonky. Since some things happen one way in one reality and a different way in an alternate reality. So if you placed one on top of the other they won't match up. The bleeding of realities would miss up the time sequence of events.

So I think the FE is taking advantage of this bleeding of realities to achieve its own ends, which is to facilitate the downward spiral into Chaos.

So how does Buffy defeat this evil? We are told it can't be killed. I think the FE is either an agent of Chaos or is Chaos incarnate and the only way to defeat it will be to restore order, restore balance. Dawn is the key. The portal that Dawns blood opened needs to be sealed so that order can be restored. Will Buffy again have to choose between Dawn and the world or will she find an alternate solution? Joyce told Dawn that Buffy wouldn't choose her.
The Welcoming Comittee (Showtime Spoilers and Fun) -- neaux, 04:18:38 01/08/03 Wed

Opening scene:
A lost boy from Indiana takes a bus to LA and steps off the bus.

Cue Music:

Welcome to the jungle
We got fun 'n' games
We got evrything you want
Honey we know the names
We are the people that can find
Whatever you may need
If you got the money honey
We got your disease
Chorus:
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your knees, knees
I wanna watch you bleed
Welcome to the jungle
We take it day by day
If you want it you're gonna bleed
But it's the price you pay
And you're a very sexy girl
That's very hard to please
You can taste the bright lights
But you won't get them for free
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Feel my, my serpentine
I, I wanna hear yous-cream
Welcome to the jungle
It gets worse here evryday
Ya learn ta live like an animal
In the jungle where we play
If you got a hunger for what you see
You'll take it eventually
You can have anything you want
But you better not take it from me
Chorus
And when you're high you never
Ever want to come down, YEAH!
You know where you are
You're in the jungle baby
You're gonna die
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your knees, knees
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Feel my, my serpentine
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your knees, knees
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your
It's gonna bring you down
Ha!

Ok.. now that that is out of the way.. did anyone else think the opening scene of Showtime was deliberate? I found it highly amusing as an homage to the famous
G N' R video. But this is definately intentional. I do believe one of the first lines of the episode is "Welcome to Sunnydale"

Buffy of course corrects the new girl and states that this is the Hellmouth. (I think, my memory is fading).
Therefore the entire scene reflects the title of Buffy Season 1 Episode 1. Pretty cool eh?

Anyhoo, if you actually read the lyrics above.. its kinda spooky how the song reflects a slayers pilgrimage to Sunnydale.

But speaking of welcomes, this is also the second time Buffy has acted as Welcoming commitee to a stranger straight off the bus. Remember Inca Mummy girl? Except in that episode, Buffy totally forgot to pick up her exchange friend and "HE" was killed right off the bus. So at least its nice to see Buffy was on time for once.

anyhoo... I kinda had a focus this morning.. but its really early and I cant concentrate so I'll leave you guys with this..

do you remember any more welcoming scenes? Such as Willow from England at the airport.. is there any significance?
[> As someone else has pointed out.. -- neaux, 04:54:21 01/08/03 Wed

I forgot about the "Welcome to the Thunderdome" line

So.. there is definately more invites in this episode. And invitations are crucial to the vampire world as we all know.

So this is beautiful. This is the first lesson of this episode. This episode serves as a "Vampires for Dummies" guide for the uninitiated (such as the slayer newbies).


I can honestly say that I was suckered into the "Ubervamp is unkillable" story since Buffy couldnt stake it. But this episode hammers the rules of vampires.



So back to school is was.

1. Never invite a Vampire in.

2.So the vamp cant be staked, what to do? Well there is Holy Water. So the scene with Buffy and Andrew and the Long long shot on the holy water was intentional. Buffy even uses the Holy Water on the ubervamp.

3.And of course the end of the lesson is that Vamps can be beheaded.

I'm glad ME really did take it back to the beginning.
Things to Ponder (spoilers for 'Showtime') -- purplegrrl, 09:24:15 01/08/03 Wed

Just a few thoughts this morning:

* If the First Evil can only appear as dead people, how can it appear as Buffy to Spike? Unless . . .

* Is Buffy dead? Do we have ZombieBuffy? (Granted, a faster, smarter, less hygenically challenged zombie than yur average, run-of-the-mill living dead.) Is this why Spike is able to physically hurt Buffy? Can we assume that the spell Willow, Tara, Xander, and Anya performed didn't really bring Buffy back to *life,* but merely reanimated her corpse? (Giles didn't say anything to Anya, but is he worried?)

* Or was Spike's vision of Buffy while the First Evil held him captive just that, a vision, an hallucination born of pain and deprivation?

Anybody have any answers?
[> Re: Things to Ponder (spoilers for 'Showtime') -- Rachelle667, 09:27:12 01/08/03 Wed

I think it can take the form of anything that has been dead. Buffy has been dead twice. Just because she's alive now, doesn't change the fact that she was dead at one point.
[> [> Re: Things to Ponder (spoilers for 'Showtime') -- purplegrrl, 09:36:46 01/08/03 Wed

Don't know. Maybe.

But that would make her the one anomally in the forms the First Evil has chosen to take, Spike not withstanding. (Technically he's dead, being a vampire -- soul or no soul.)

And the statement that one of the characters made is that the First Evil takes the form of someone who *is* dead, not of someone who *was* dead. Picky perhaps, but we all know Joss is all about details.
[> [> [> Not the only anomaly... -- Rob, 09:57:37 01/08/03 Wed

The First Evil has appeared as Drusilla, as well, who, as far as we know is not dead either, at least not in the dusted meaning of the word. It seems that the FE can take the form of anyone who has died. Spike died, and became a vamp, so the FE can take his form. Dru died, and became a vamp, so the FE can take her form. Buffy died, and was resurrected, but the FE can still take her form.

Rob
[> [> [> [> This means that... -- Rob, 10:01:39 01/08/03 Wed

...the act of death enables the FE to take someone's form, regardless of whether they return to life at a later date.

Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Re: This means that... -- purplegrrl, 10:16:16 01/08/03 Wed

Okay, I can go with that. But I still have a couple of issues with *is dead* vs. *was dead.*
[> [> [> Gotta disagree (spoilers for 'Showtime') -- Darby, 10:22:15 01/08/03 Wed

For someone who likes to invent a complicated mythology, Joss is hardly concerned with the details - one can go nuts trying to rationalize away the "mistakes" (or one can settle here amongst the similarly obsessed).

I am again convinced that someone on staff reads the boards, maybe this one. Recently I noted that the FE-as-Jenny in Amends seemed to be touching Angel, and in Showtime almost the same sort of caress (but pointedly without actual contact) was delivered to Spike, as if to say, "It's just a gesture, a semblance of contact but noncorporeal nonetheless."
[> One More Thing to Ponder (spoilers for 'Showtime') -- purplegrrl, 09:31:04 01/08/03 Wed

One more thought:

* Buffy's death doesn't call the next Slayer, Faith's does.

Hmmm.
BUFFYS BACK AND SHE IS BADDDDDDD. LOVED SHOWTIME -- Angelina, 10:42:59 01/08/03 Wed

I absolutely loved this episode. I cannot remember ever being so satisfied with the end of an episode. The fight scene in the "arena" was galactically fabulous. Why we ever questioned Buffy is beyond me. She is, and always will be, "The Chosen One". And the VERY last scene, when she cuts Spike down - sorry guys, but it brought tears to my eyes. Not the best Buffy episode, but certainly one that I will remember for bringing Buffy back, stronger and more confident than ever! The character of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one of television's crown jewels, and Sarah Michelle Geller simply ROCKS...... Kudos ME..
[> I second that. -- frisby, 11:15:19 01/08/03 Wed

SMG has the power of drama -- she keeps it real! They ought to pay "her" a million an episode (referring to "Friends" of course). JM is good too though, and lets not forget JW.
[> I guess it's all subjective... (spoilers aplenty) -- PepTech, 11:34:40 01/08/03 Wed

I cannot remember ever being so satisfied with the end of an episode.

Agreed completely. A lot there to like.

The fight scene in the "arena" was galactically fabulous.

Blech and double blech. I thought it was awful. Buffy spends the first two-thirds of the fight getting beat up as badly as she did the last time they faced each other, with big whomping blows that supposedly busted her ribs before. She has her head put through cinder blocks. She gets knocked right through scaffolding, blasted across the arena by punches and kicks, can't land a single punch, never phases the thing.

Then she pokes it in the eye, and it was like the turn of tide in a wrestling match. Granted, the eye oozed in a satisfactory way, and that probably hurt, but c'mon. This thing had a pallet of steel pipes dropped on it! Suddenly now four or five (previously ineffectual) BuffyPunches and it's down for the count? Why, in her weakened state, do her blows start working? Maybe Willow lent her strength - this may have been what they were referring to with the "wait for it" line, but if so, a bit too subtle for my taste.

Plus, it dusted merely from being choked. I know, the idea was probably that she'd sawn through the neck with the barbed wire, but that's not what they showed. We've seen more graphic stuff than this on the show; heck, Gnarl was licking Willow's tummy blood! FX could have done more to make it seem like a real beheading without too much effort.

Sorry, didn't mean to pee on your parade, it's just that BtVS has done much, much better fight sequences than this one (Buffy vs. Faith comes to mind). The choreography wasn't that great, and the continuity blew chunx. But everything is relative :-)
[> [> Re: What show did you watch? I guess it's all subjective... (spoilers aplenty) -- Angelina, 12:28:25 01/08/03 Wed

This was a great scene because it showed that Buffy cannot and WILL not go down, not unless SHE decides to. "I will always find a way" that is what she says upon arrival at the arena and she did find a way - I know she would have fought that thing till she dropped. AND by the by, she took UberVamps HEAD OFF - that's why it dusted. It wasn't about the choreography it was about her heart! I loved it when she walked out of the site leading the way with her Scoobs and Newscoops behind her!
[> [> [> The fight scene was the worst ever on the show -- Doug the Bloody, 12:59:00 01/08/03 Wed

I mean it.

The thing kicks her ass left right and center, but with a little bit of dumb machismo she is suddenly stroonger than it is? The fight was very badly done as well, they really need new choreographers.
[> [> [> Re: Same one you saw :-) -- PepTech, 13:42:43 01/08/03 Wed

Agreed on the nice message about not giving up, etc. That's not my beef.

My beef is that they spent an ep and a half establishing that Buffy is not a match for this thing, not one-on-one. She was at full strength in BoTN and got her fanny paddled. Internal injuries. Knocked out. Tossed like a rag doll. Same thing for the first five minutes of Showtime. She couldn't do crap, and her best efforts were ineffectual.

Then the eye-poke, and now her blows matter?

It really *was* like Wrestlemania, where The Hero's arm has dropped twice in the sleeperhold and as it's dropping for the third time, it suddenly is possessed with the spirit of the cheering crowd and The Hero powers to his feet, elbows like anvils, yadda yadda yadda.

I was expecting something clever and resourceful, like a firehose full of holy water, or trapping the thing in a guillotine. You still could have had your Power Shot of Triumph without shredding any credibility.
[> [> [> [> Maybe she hit brain. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:13:08 01/08/03 Wed

If she managed to poke into the UberVamp's brain, I'd be surprised if he wasn't disoriented at least. After all, a brain-damaged UberVamp is probably less of challenge.
[> Eh. Showtime was okay... - A little Showtime Spoilery in some places -- ZachsMind, 12:21:47 01/08/03 Wed

The final UberVamp battle looked too blase, compared to the last one. I was hoping they'd show more that it's more about Buffy's sheer willpower that gets her through. With the SITs watching, and her inner need to prove herself, she shoulda been able to take on the UberVamp more impressively - that's her power has never stemmed from her physical muscle which is still pretty much a cheerleader physique, but that it's more a mental, spiritual & mystical thing, with her body being just a vessel from which a greater power surges out. Like what we saw at the end of season four. By NOW Buffy should be able to do almost the equivalent of that without Willow & Xander's support. Where she pools her inner resources and sorta 'powers up' in a subtle but effective way.

When Willow looked up at Buffy and they left the room, then Xander yelped "WHAT?" as Willow passed by, I thought maybe they were gonna play with the connection between the three of them (AND Giles) more, giving a tip of the hat to "Primeval" but the writers didn't follow through with it properly.

And I woulda liked to have seen Dawn get more peeved that once again she was left out of the loop. That the threesome made these plans via telepathy, but Dawn wasn't let in on it. She was out of the loop. Dawn shoulda called Willow on that more. Dawn's not Buffy's "go to guy." What the pseudoJoyce cautioned to Dawn in CwDP is coming true. Buffy will not pick Dawn. It's gotta be stuck in her craw.

The final scene with Buffy & Spike was such a let down. No real dialogue except for a bit of Spike talking to himself. After all this, Buffy just walks in with a dagger and cuts him free. Then they ate Sir Robin's minstrels, and there was much rejoicing. Yay. yay. I woulda liked to see Spike do more of the assuming Buffy was the real thing and she had to prove it to him. Granted, all it took was a touch, but it just didn't have the impact it shoulda had.

Liked the bit with Anya, Giles and one of her many exes. That was fun. I really think a spinoff series that featured those two stuck working together would really rock. The chemistry between them is amusing and versatile. The scenes with the all-seeing eye thing were megacool too. Kinda puts a damper in the theory that Giles is dead though. The wind was ripping around him along with Anya. Granted, *maybe* The First Evil could fake that but looks to me that it's kinda a hard sell at this point that Giles is disembodied.

All in all I like where they're going with it but I don't think they're pulling all the stops. It's more like they've resigned to this being the final season and they're just kinda going through the motions. The thrill seems to be gone behind the scenes. There's something missing in the execution of the production. Maybe it's just that they felt so rushed around holiday season filming a lot of those scenes, and things'll turn around in the episodes to come.
[> teary-eyedness (spoilers) -- darvangi, 13:59:03 01/08/03 Wed

I'm glad you said it first, but I certainly don't mind admiting that I got pretty choked up at the end too when Buffy cut Spike down and helped him out of the cave. I never thought that the "she believes in me" business was hokey, in fact, Buffy's support of Spike's redemption has been the highlight of the season for me. There's something intrinsically 'good' in a religious-type way about her faith in Spike after his acquisition of a soul; and as viewers who have seen him go from being unsympathetically evil in a likable way to sympathetically good in a likable way, we are in on the process of forgiveness along with the scoobies.

The first half of the ep was too slow, and a bit redundant - and I didn't like Andrew's spastic behavior, the trainees' whining or the big throbbing eye creature (holy Dr. Who effects, Ba
[> [> Sorry - double post; please delete ^ this one ^ -- darvangi, 14:04:03 01/08/03 Wed

[> teary-eyedness (spoilers) -- darvangi, 14:00:06 01/08/03 Wed

I'm glad you said it first, but I certainly don't mind admiting that I got pretty choked up at the end too when Buffy cut Spike down and helped him out of the cave. I never thought that the "she believes in me" business was hokey, in fact, Buffy's support of Spike's redemption has been the highlight of the season for me. There's something intrinsically 'good' in a religious-type way about her faith in Spike after his acquisition of a soul; and as viewers who have seen him go from being unsympathetically evil in a likable way to sympathetically good in a likable way, we are in on the process of forgiveness along with the scoobies.

The first half of the ep was too slow, and a bit redundant - and I didn't like Andrew's spastic behavior, the trainees' whining or the big throbbing eye creature (holy Dr. Who effects, Batman!), but the big fight at the end along with the final Spike scene more than made up for the failures. I love seeing Buffy be a confident hero again and I'm looking forward to seeing how Spike can help defeat the First Evil.

Oh, and I'm also looking forward to more Kennedy. She's really starting to grow on me, and I find her very worthy of Willow's affections, if things go that way.
'Showtime': HonorH's real comments, questions, and answers (Spoilers 7.11) -- HonorH, 13:34:34 01/08/03 Wed

Okay, now that my Highly Annoying Alter-Ego has had her say, let me have mine. First, a little help for everybody: the names of the proto-Slayers.

Rona: African-American, the one who came in at the beginning
Molly: London accent, fond of pigtails
Kennedy: likes Willow, kinda butch, likable
Chloe: Latina, short hair, bad shirt
Vi: short red hair, rainbow shirt, knit cap
Eve: evil, whiny, dead

Just barely managed to catch Vi's name on second viewing, and to straighten out who Chloe was. Notice how well Dawn manages to fit in with them, btw. I do hope she makes friends with them now that they're slightly less jittery.

After viewing this a second time, I think I've got a few answers to common questions.

1) Notice that we didn't see all of the conversation with Beljoxa's Eye. Giles and Anya came out of the portal apparently discussing something we didn't hear. Giles, at least, believes the Eye was saying that Buffy's resurrection at the beginning of S6 is what triggered the First's attempt on the Slayer line. It makes some sense, too--note that this season, it's been keeping Buffy alive because she's "not in order". In S3, it was trying to get Angel to kill Buffy. So I'm thinking Buffy's S1 drowning was *not* what the Eye was talking about.

2) Why could Buffy kill the Turok-Han now and not last ep? Timing. In BotN, Buffy didn't know what it was or what it was capable of. Furthermore, she was exhausted mentally and physically and making bad decisions--like not bringing a weapon along when she went to find Annabelle. This ep, she knew what she was facing, and her mental attitude was better. As we've seen, Buffy's mental strength is really where her Slayer power lies. She was ready to kill it, so she did. However, somebody really should've tossed her a sword.

3) Why they didn't figure out Eve wasn't corporeal: the proto-Slayers are all very on edge right now, so I don't think they're being all that alert. Furthermore, the house is so crowded that I think "Eve" managed to get herself lost in the shuffle. The First, too, has shown that it's able to adjust its clothing and appearance at will, so all "Eve" would have to do is be away from the others for a minute to change into pajamas or different clothes. It was only a matter of time until it was found out, of course, but it could've probably gone on at least a few more days before the jig was up.

Now to questions I can't answer:

1) Who is the "her" the First was referring to when it sent out the Turok-Han? Possibilities:
a) Anya. Unlikely. The First would've known she and Giles were out consulting the Eye and that it would take a lot of time, so it probably didn't even think she'd be there.
b) Willow. Possible, but unlikely. I think it would like to subvert Willow, but it did suggest she off herself in CwDP. Either evil or dead would probably do for Willow.
c) Buffy. Likely, but obvious. The Turok-Han seemed ready to kill her, but then, it might've just given her another beating, then gone after the proto-Slayers. Hard to say.
d) One of the potentials. Unlikely. Unless I'm mistaken, it wants them all dead.
e) Dawn. Possible. The First could have use for the Key. OTOH, that Bringer did try to knife her in NLM, so either it was a case of the First's minions being Not So Bright yet again, or it *does* want her dead.

Those imprecise pronouns will get ya every time.

2) Giles. Why are they keeping him at such a distance? For two eps thus far, he hasn't touched anybody. Where's the payoff? I really don't believe he's the First. One, it's such an obvious ploy. Two, the Coven called and asked for him, and I think that if he was dead, they'd be the first to know. Three, with the other manifestations of the First, it's allowed itself a smug smirk when no one's looking at it. Giles has thus far betrayed no such mannerisms. He's acting more like himself, and yet something's wrong.

This ep holds up better on second viewing than on the first. Kennedy's really growing on me. It's evident that Willow's picked up on her crush, but methinks it'll be a while until Willow can even begin to respond. But I do like Kennedy. If she continues to be this strong, she'll be a major help to Buffy.
[> Re: 'Showtime': HonorH's real comments, questions, and answers (Spoilers 7.11) -- PepTech, 13:59:45 01/08/03 Wed

Two, the Coven called and asked for him, and I think that if he was dead, they'd be the first to know.

Maybe, but then they sent Buffy to go look for Eve, and she'd been dead for days. I agree, the payoff on the whole Is He Or Not will be lame.

2) Why could Buffy kill the Turok-Han now and not last ep? Timing. In BotN, Buffy didn't know what it was or what it was capable of. Furthermore, she was exhausted mentally and physically and making bad decisions--like not bringing a weapon along when she went to find Annabelle. This ep, she knew what she was facing, and her mental attitude was better. As we've seen, Buffy's mental strength is really where her Slayer power lies. She was ready to kill it, so she did. However, somebody really should've tossed her a sword.

Sorry, not buying it. Don't want to harp too much on this (since it's playing out in another thread), but the whole dispatch of GrrArrgh was inconsistently done. You're right on the sword part, though :-)

If her mental strength is her trump card, find a clever trappy way to kill it. If her friends were the key, like Primeval, make it a tad less subtle. Five punches doing the trick after all the stuff she'd already thrown at it (and been subjected to herself)? Lame.
[> [> Okay, not quite. -- HonorH, 14:45:52 01/08/03 Wed

I think you missed a couple of my points.

1) You do *not* agree with me that the payoff to the question of whether Giles is alive or not will be lame. I just want the question answered, since I feel they've dragged it out quite long enough. However, I pride myself on not judging plot twists before I actually see them. Whether the payoff is lame or not remains to be seen.

2) Was defeating the Uber-Vamp "too easy"? Let's see: the first time Buffy fought it, she'd have beaten it if it'd been stakable. It bruised her up pretty easily, but she struck what would've been a death blow if it'd been your garden-variety vamp. The second time she fought it was, as I said, when she was emotionally and physically exhausted. It's not certain that a vampire of Spike's caliber couldn't have beaten her at that point. The fact is, we never saw Buffy at the top of her game fighting it until the third fight. The third fight wasn't "five punches" and it's down; it was a long, brutal fight that Buffy finally won out of sheer determination. She had to win the confidence of the proto-Slayers, and she did it. Determined Buffy is dangerous Buffy. She stopped being scared of it, and she beat it. That's how Buffy won her final fights against the Master, Angelus, and Glory. That's how she won this time.
[> [> [> Mea Culpa -- PepTech, 15:09:32 01/08/03 Wed

1) You do *not* agree with me that the payoff to the question of whether Giles is alive or not will be lame. I just want the question answered, since I feel they've dragged it out quite long enough. However, I pride myself on not judging plot twists before I actually see them. Whether the payoff is lame or not remains to be seen.

You're right; my mistake. I agree it's frustrating they've dragged it out, and my own projection of that is that they've already dropped enough crumbs to make it untenable that he's the First: adjusting the curtains, participating in the meet with the Eye, herding SITs around... To continue to drag out the question of his wholesomeness is to make it less and less likely the payoff will be satisfactory, but that's my own opinion, not one that should have been projected on your comments. I was just on a "Germans bombing Pearl Harbor" roll with that other stuff. :-)

One thought that occurred to me on last night was that First/Eve appeared to everyone. Previously we'd only seen the First appear to one person in a room, which had been evidence (in my mind) that Giles was Giles. Guess that's out the window...
[> [> [> [> Giles speculation -- luna, 19:05:41 01/08/03 Wed

Possibly being somehow animated/on psychic life support/zombied? by the coven?? Nah, too weird even for this.
[> maybe Giles is pulling an FFX Auron (yes, I am a geek) -- Clen, 15:18:03 01/08/03 Wed

[> Re: 'Showtime': HonorH's real comments, questions, and answers (Spoilers 7.11) -- JM, 15:48:13 01/08/03 Wed

I'm starting to wonder if Giles will turn out to be a complete red herring, entirely aimed at the viewers, and never addressed by the narrative at all. Maybe there's touching going on off screen. Could be ME's meta shout-out to how closely viewers scan the text and how quickly rumors and spoilers travel. At least it's what I'm currently hoping.
[> [> Hmm, interesting spec, but... -- Tyreseus, 19:49:03 01/08/03 Wed

Why would they show us Giles about to be axed, then nothing until he arrives in Sunnydale. As a generally accepted principle of storytelling, they must (at some point) give us some explanation.

It's like the famous quote by Chekov, "If there is a gun on the wall in act one, in act three it should fire." Sure, Red Herrings are fun, but they need to serve the overall purpose of the storyline, not be dismissed and ignored.

And a question regarding HonorH's original post - wasn't Eve interacting with physical objects at the beginning of the episode (specifically a sleeping bag)? It doesn't exactly fit with the MO of the First.
[> [> [> Re: Hmm, interesting spec, but... -- HonorH, 19:56:28 01/08/03 Wed

It looked to me, on second viewing, like Eve was lying on top of her bag. Thus, she wasn't really interacting with it any more than the First interacts with the floor when one of its manifestations walks.
[> [> [> [> Re: Hmm, interesting spec, but... -- Utopia, 21:00:27 01/08/03 Wed

I don't why Giles is not touching anything, or why he hasn't taken off that jacket..Hell if I know why Giles is acting all suspicious..

My question is, can the first manifest as two "ghosts" at once? I'm pretty sure Giles walked into the Buffy's living room while Eve was there, and that would pretty much take him out of the running as another First Evil Spook...You know, unless it could multi-task.
[> [> [> [> [> It's a good question. -- HonorH, 21:07:24 01/08/03 Wed

The First has tended to morph rather than be two beings at once. I can think of at least one instance in which appearing in two manifestations would have been useful: when trying to convince Andrew to kill someone else to open the Seal. It morphed from Warren to Jonathan, but wouldn't it have been just as effective--if not moreso--to be *both* Warren and Jonathan pressuring Andrew? It's also not at all certain that Dawn's manifestation of Joyce while Willow was talking to FECassie was also the First. So really, we don't know.

One thing, though: the First was with Spike part of the time it was imitating Eve. It was never shown with him and as Eve in overlapping timelines, however, so again, we're not certain.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's a good question. -- JM, 21:15:35 01/08/03 Wed

This clearly calls for a split screen.
[> [> [> Re: Hmm, interesting spec, but... -- JM, 21:39:31 01/08/03 Wed

My argument would be for subversion of story telling conventions. I'm certain I'll be proved wrong, but I'm enjoying my personal spec. In my world, Robson saw the Harbinger and with his dying strength grabbed Giles by the lapels. Axr just misses, efficient Giles finishes off minion. But because ME won't follow rules, it's all passported (tm TWoP for offscreen activities), and the no touching is solely to keep those pesky over-observant fans busy during holiday reruns.

It's kind of like all of us who wondered how Darla got pregnant. A season later the implications are more important than the hows.
About Buffy vs. the UberVamp (7.11 spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:25:35 01/08/03 Wed

Some people have stated they're dissatisfied with "Showtime" because they thought Buffy beat the UberVamp too easily, especially after he beat her up through most of the fight, yet suddenly she was on top when she poked him in the eye. I have two theories on this:

1) Buffy was partially playing along with the UberVamp earlier in the fight, so she could make it too arrogant.

2) When Buffy stabbed it in the eye, she pierced its brain. We've seen in a couple past episodes, with regards to Spike's chip, that vampires do have brain chemistry and can be brain damaged (though it's possible their brains can heal, unlike humans'). If Buffy poked out a piece of the UberVamp's brain, it's no surprise he folded under Buffy's blows.
[> My take: -- HonorH, 14:51:05 01/08/03 Wed

Buffy had to stop being afraid of it. Let's look at the three fights she has with the UV:

1) She meets it in the catacombs where the First has apparently set up shop. She fights it and strikes what would've been a death blow to any other vampire. That doesn't kill it, which throws her off her game, and she's forced to run.

2) She's exhausted, having not slept for three days. She's beginning to feel hopeless and is making bad decisions. The UV catches her when she's at her worst, and it beats the sweet livin' crap out of her.

3) She's decided the UV is beatable, and more than that, that she needs to beat it. Buffy goes in determined, no longer afraid, and after a long, brutal fight in which she gets hurt plenty, she finally defeats it. That's what won the fight for her. She was ready, and she did it.
[> Re: About Buffy vs. the UberVamp (7.11 spoilers) -- PepTech, 14:51:35 01/08/03 Wed

1) Buffy was partially playing along with the UberVamp earlier in the fight, so she could make it too arrogant.

Thing seemed pretty primal to me. "Go kill" is about its level of communication. Lulling Adam or Glory or the Mayor with an appeal to hubris, sure. Uber was just a mindless violence machine, not established as something that would take nuance into account.

2) When Buffy stabbed it in the eye, she pierced its brain. We've seen in a couple past episodes, with regards to Spike's chip, that vampires do have brain chemistry and can be brain damaged (though it's possible their brains can heal, unlike humans'). If Buffy poked out a piece of the UberVamp's brain, it's no surprise he folded under Buffy's blows.

Can't see it. On the one hand it's spec; we could just as easily theorize that Willow lent her power again. If that's what the writers meant, they should give us a couple frames where it howls in pain or something, any kind of establishing shot where we can hang our viewer hat on "hey, that was the turning point!" Instead, the turning point appears to be Willow's "just wait" statement, after which Buffy immediately takes control. In BoTN, there was the distraction of the blood-spitting to explain how she got out of the bear hug; here, she goes from helplessly dangled by her neck after five minutes of having her ass handed to her, to Five Punches of Doom That Save The Day.

To balance things out, things I really liked:
- various readiness states of the SITs
- Andrew vs. Dawn
- Giles and Anya with the Eye
- Spike's wordless acting after being cut down

The fight just really, really bugged me as being way, way under the standards ME has established. Ideas of the top of *my* peabrain that would have improved it:
- Hidden pointy weapons around the construction site
- Holy Water FireHose or sprinkler system
- Longer period of time to weaken Uber
- If Buffy's newfound internal strength is to be touted, give me a scene where he punches her hard, and she stands there with a look like "that's all you got?" or even "thank you sir, may I have another"
- Net or cage or something to trap the thing until sunrise

I'm sure ME could have come up with much better stuff than that, or found creative ways to combine some of these with some of their own, to add a little more storytelling to the battle. Nope, it was just "OK, Buffy starts winning now". All the mystique surrounding the Seal of Dalthazar (or whatever), built over several eps and encompassing the loss of Jonathan, is now simply gone, in less than a minute of fight time. Too tidy and not up to the standards we've been taught to expect. But maybe that's just me :-)
[> [> I agree -- CaptainPugwash, 15:15:36 01/08/03 Wed

When they lured the UV into that setting, I thought they were going to trap it until sunrise (the FE having revealed that the UV was vulnerable to sunlight). The weakness of the UV is its lack of intelligence (it is a creature of instinct), so they should have exploited that instead (a trap of some kind).

When faced with physically superior foes (Adam, Glory, The Mayor etc.), the SG have always had to use their wits and/or team up. The UV was built up to be something that could not be defeated by brute force, so it was a little disappointing when he was...
[> [> [> Respectfully disagree.... -- Briar Rose, 16:10:41 01/08/03 Wed

In the story line what was important was showing the proto-slayers that Buffy can and will protect them and the world. It might be messy. It might cause her a world of hurt. It might even mean that a good old fashioned street fight style beat down is the only option, along with knowing your opponent and his strengths as well as his weaknesses and that the Slayer is still up to it.

This Thunderdome WAS exactly like the fights in season 1 and 2. Going back to basics in such a way that the proto- slayers comprehend how a Slayer does what she does.

It's all on her most of the time. Sure, if you have friends, then so much the better. But you do what ya gotta do with what you have to do it with. Just like how she saved the world weekly in the very beginning. Not much sophisticated weaponry in those battles. Just heart, soul and a feeling of belief in her own inner stength and power.
[> [> [> [> Chiming in with Briar Rose -- Tyreseus, 17:29:26 01/08/03 Wed

I have to agree with BR, here. Because of the lines between Dawn and Willow, I'm tempted to believe that Willow could have maintained a barrier trapping the Turak-Han in a nice soon-to-be-sunny location until morning - but this was a set-up for the SITs to see how a slayer does business.

I mean, if cutting off the head was all that was needed, she could have surprised ol' dusty with a sword or axe. But she used her hands and whatever weapons were available at the time. It was all about the lessons.

Just a thought on the training readiness of the various SITs, I like they were at different levels of training, but I wonder at the level of incompetence within the Watcher's Council. I mean, none of them had seen a live vampire and all had little to no ability for strategy (which early Wesley was all about). Was Kennedy the only one with a watcher who attempted to teach his girl anything useful?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Chiming in -- pr10n, 18:41:56 01/08/03 Wed

I submit that the Scoobs DID use their wits, by communicating telepathically and relying on Xander's jobsite and Willow's shield/distraction/neandervamp catnip. That sophistication would have been impossible before S6, when we saw Willow coordinate the team telepathically (granted, as an Evil Channel of Death Energy, but still...). I think it was a great illustration of just how powerful the Scoobies can become.

The team seemed to agree that this was the best course of action -- Willow to rev the Beastie, Xander to provide a Thunderdome, and Buffy to wail medievally therein. I think it was a great way for ME to get to the REAL reason for the fight: morale boost for the wanna-slayer-bes, and message to the First, who seemed glibless for once, indeed contempletive.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Chiming in with Briar Rose -- Lizzy, 18:59:19 01/08/03 Wed

"Was Kennedy the only one with a watcher who attempted to teach his girl anything useful?"

Kennedy made it pretty clear in Showtime that she was older than the other SITs (she said she was afraid she was too old to be called as the slayer). Because she said that she had learned to use the crossbow when she was 8, she was evidently identified as a potential when she was young.

I don't think there is a certain age for being identified as a potential or as a slayer -- Buffy didn't appear to be identified until she was actually called and received no prior training before she became the slayer.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gestures -- DEN, 19:29:48 01/08/03 Wed

HonorH and Briar Rose, IMO, are right about what's needed: a stand-up fight and a stand-up victory. But I agree that there's too little setup of the triumph. It reminded me of those old WWF scenes where Hulk Hogan (in his years as a good guy) would be whaled on unmercifully, then all of a sudden would start shaking his head and stage a comeback. WHy not have Buffy using a swoed or an axe, then halfway through the fight, toss it aside and say "OK, let's get down to it! What have you really got?" Something like that makes to point and covers the planning/prudence issue at the same time

And I still say this is looking more and more like a WWI fighter squadron, where aces like Mannock and von Richthofen would take newbies up and show them how it was done!
[> [> [> [> [> the training of the SITs -- Helen, 02:22:30 01/09/03 Thu

May be wrong, but I thought the point was that gathering them up like this was a last ditch effort to save the slayer line. Some potentials know what they are, and become SITs, some have no clue (like Buffy). Say Buffy had been tragically killed in a motor accident three months before the preceding Slyer died. The line would have passed directly to Faith, without Buff ever knowing what her destiny was (or potentially was). In the normal order of things, without the FE cherry picking them off, most of these SITs would never end up being the one, and wouldn't know a thing about any of this.

Makes the whinyness more forgiveable too - wouldn't YOU be freaked?
[> [> [> [> Quite so -- slain, 18:56:04 01/08/03 Wed

Watching Buffy get her self kicked around by the UV in BotN, I was reminded of Glory; something she couldn't kill by brute force. So I think the slaying of the UV was a good affirmation of Buffy's power - not just mental, but physical. Ever since Buffy slayed the Master, that she was capable of slaying any vampire and pretty much any thing (big snake, evil smurf, Angelus) there's been an effort, starting with Fury's 'Helpless', to have Buffy fight things she can't just kill with her hands. Slaying the UV reminded us that Buffy is not just a girl with some emotional problems and a crazy ex-boyfriend; she's the Slayer, something she hasn't really been since 'The Gift'; and that she's someone who can use physical power to her advantage.

Brute force aside, the ways which the Scoobs used their brains have been pointed out - but I'd also like to add the the bright flood lighting was another bit of forethinking to disadvantage the UV, vampires being creatures of the night and Buffy being from California.
[> [> [> [> One thing to remember -- Deb, 19:47:11 01/08/03 Wed

UV was told to kill all except Buffy. She was to be brought back alive, so the UV wouldn't be fighting up to maximun "kill" level, and it is still my belief that Buffy was aware of this.
[> [> [> [> [> That is the most plausible explanation -- CaptainPugwash, 01:54:15 01/09/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: I agree -- dub ;o), 20:35:36 01/08/03 Wed

When they lured the UV into that setting, I thought they were going to trap it until sunrise (the FE having revealed that the UV was vulnerable to sunlight). The weakness of the UV is its lack of intelligence...

Doesn't that mean the UV's weakness is UV?

*sorry...*
[> Jesus and 'clobberin' time'.... -- BEV, 14:54:14 01/08/03 Wed

Hate to sound like a full fledged card carrying nerd herder but, I think the turn around in the fight is simply one instance of a motif in Christian and Post-christian hero literature.

It simply isn't a satisfying victory if our hero doesn't take a licking before getting up and kicking @ss is it?

I can think of a million examples of this, from Henry the fifth at Agincourt, to Superman's latest bout with Lex Luthor. But, perhaps the clearest example of this is Christ himself. What St. Paul says of Christ in one of his epistles (I forget which), we can say of our affliation with the hero:

"If we suffer with him,
shall we not also be raised with him?"

That is why Buffy takes a licking, it simply makes the victory all the more joyful. And the worse the suffering, the greater the Joy will be.

To use Lewis's proverb:

"The Cross always comes before the crown."

***Note the non-christians out there whom may object. Yes I am fully Aware that this motif pre-dates the NT going back clearly to the Epic of Gilgamesh, and that it probably pre-dates even that earliest text of human authorship. I was merely simplifying for the sake discussion. Thanks.
[> [> 'jesus and 'clobberin' time'....'? haven't you heard... -- anom, 21:38:11 01/08/03 Wed

...turns out the Thing* is Jewish?

Of course, so was Jesus, so that may undermine my point....

*For folks who aren't familiar w/Marvel Comics, the Thing is one of the Fantastic Four. Big, craggy, orange...& the quote in BEV's subject line is his battle cry.
[> [> Interesting comments -- Rahael, 03:19:57 01/09/03 Thu

I haven't seen the ep, yet, won't get to see it for many weeks. But applying what you say to Season 6 overall seems very convincing to me. For Spike, for Buffy, for Xander, for all our Scoobies.
[> Sandbagging (7.11 spoilers) -- Cleanthes, 15:29:12 01/08/03 Wed

When I watched this fight, I thought it obvious that Buffy was sandbagging from about the fourth punch. Only by reading the internet did I discover that people not only didn't see it this way, but they didn't get this at all.

So, as fairly often happens, something I thought was neat is now utterly ruined by self-doubt. Well, maybe not.
Maybe I have the stoic inner strength to understand the puissance of the subjective invictus.

Well, naaah... , but I may as well pretend...

Assuming that Buffy strongly suspected that the ubervamp would probably succumb to beheading inasmuch as it had already demonstrated a vulnerability to holy water, so Buffy could guess that staking hadn't worked not because the Uvamp was invulnerable or not a vamp, but solely on account of a different physiology (the critter, like dinosaurs, just had its heart in a different place); at which point Buffy knew she would win, and so lured the vamp to the "thunderdrome" where she needed to demonstrate to the skittish hemidemisemislayers that she could fight and fight and fight and get beat up and STILL win.

Once she could safely conclude that the girlies noticed how much lickin' she could take and keep on tickin' and the girlies knew some fear and doubt at the outcome, then and then only could Buffy stop holding back and just win, allowing maximum value for the lesson.
[> [> Re: Sandbagging ! I agree with all that you said. It was perfect for the story line, IMO. -- Briar Rose, 16:16:07 01/08/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Sandbagging ! I agree with all that you said. It was perfect for the story line, IMO. -- DEN, 19:34:53 01/08/03 Wed

A very interesting take. I didn't see any signs of sandbagging--but many of us are so disillusioned with ME's scripting that we ascribe any open-ended situation to sloppiness. And maybe we're wrong!
[> [> [> Re: Sandbagging ! I agree with all that you said. It was perfect for the story line, IMO. -- DEN, 19:34:54 01/08/03 Wed

A very interesting take. I didn't see any signs of sandbagging--but many of us are so disillusioned with ME's scripting that we ascribe any open-ended situation to sloppiness. And maybe we're wrong!
[> Re: About Buffy vs. the UberVamp (7.11 spoilers) -- Corwin of Amber, 20:34:12 01/08/03 Wed

What really bugs me about the fight with the Uber-Vamp is that it was a missed opportunity to show that Buffy has matured in her warrior nature. She should have changed her strategy. Examples:

1) Best block is not be there: Buffy avoids most of the Uber-Vamps blows until it starts to tire, leaving the opening for the death blow by sword or whatever.

2) Jujitsu: Instead of duking it out, Buffy takes it down to the ground where its size and strength matter less and technique is what makes the difference.

3) Kali: A vampires strength comes from blood right? What happens if you bleed it to death? Buffy uses evasion and two bolo knives to gradally ensanquinate the thing. Maybe too graphic for televison.

Instead we get:

4) John Wayne Kickboxing: Let the ubervamp punch me until it tires out.
FE & Its Manifestations (Plus a random OT blathering for your enjoyment!) -- Lyonors, 17:28:06 01/08/03 Wed

Okay...now this little tidbit could go under any one of like 4 threads, and I couldn't decide which I should put it under, and creating its own thread practically guarentees that this thread will die a horrible death, but hey...I am all about typing for typings sake today since I finally got my above elbow cast off after 5 weeks...oh the glorious scratching!

Anywho...to the point of the post...I was flipping past FX tonite and saw the ep Halloween was on...and I made a realization....Willow has died... she was a ghost for Halloween and then actually became a ghost and was dead for half the episode...SO...technically couldnt the FE take on Willow's form? I doubt that it has to date...but comeon...nitpicky Whedonverse rules apply here don't they?

Ly.
[> Re: FE & Its Manifestations (Plus a random OT blathering for your enjoyment!) -- maddog, 18:09:20 01/08/03 Wed

I don't think that counts. She became her costume...doesn't mean that she technically died.

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