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Grrr-Aargh and today's episode (7.15? 7.16? Lost count) (no spoilers) -- LonesomeSundown, 18:07:19 02/25/03 Tue

Can somebody tell me just what the logo said at the end of the episode? I didn't quite catch it, but it DEFINITELY wasn't the usual.
[> I missed it too! Also, who wrote this ep? -- Scroll, 18:12:30 02/25/03 Tue

I usually don't pay attention to the end credits -- much to my regret when it came to "Amends", "Graduation Day II", and "Once More, With Feeling". Now, apparently I've missed something again. Darn!

Does anyone know who wrote this ep? Cuz it was funny as hell, but still gave Andrew depth and seriousness. Well done, whoever it was.
[> [> Re: I missed it too! Also, who wrote this ep? -- Mystic, 18:19:53 02/25/03 Tue

I think the end credit was the usual grunt and whatever the trio were singing during Andrew's fantasy-we-are-god-running-through-a-field-of-flowers sequence. Also, Jane Espenson wrote this esp.
[> [> [> The Grr Aargh vamp sang: -- Rob, 18:21:13 02/25/03 Tue

"WE ARE AS GODS!!"

Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, Rob! :) (NT) -- Liv, 21:46:48 02/25/03 Tue

Andrew's temptation (spoilers for "Storyteller") -- RichardX1, 19:29:41 02/25/03 Tue

So, the First Evil told Andrew, "Follow this plan of mine and you will be as gods."

I don't know which is sadder: that he's still using that old line, or that humans still fall for it.

(Genesis 3:5)

((Off-topic note: VoyFourms CANNOT work with AOL))
[> Re: Andrew's temptation (spoilers for "Storyteller") -- Gyrus, 20:07:03 02/25/03 Tue

To misquote Willow, "Humans were MADE to fall for that. We're the 'fall for that' species!"

There is always someone desperate enough to take any hope you care to give them, however obviously false it may be.
[> Actually, I missed the serpent thing altogether -- Scroll, 20:18:56 02/25/03 Tue

I can't believe I didn't notice the First Evil echoing the serpent's temptation (or repeating else repeating itself). Me dense.

But if we go with cjl's theory of transcending the duality of good and evil (see Archive 1, cjl, 22:23:30 02/23/03 Sun) then it's significant that the serpent doesn't just tempt humans with being "as gods", but to be as God in the sense of having the knowledge of good and evil.

I'm not sure I know where to go with this...
[> OT: AOL fix -- Gwen, 23:28:17 02/25/03 Tue

DSL down tonight. Grrr. Aaargh.

And so, I feel your pain, since I'm also stuck on AOL. But if you've got browser software installed (like IE or Netscape or Opera), you should be able to bring it up in a separate window and so not have to use AOL's built-in piece'o'crap (TM). Doing it that way, Voyager works just fine, at least for me. Hope you have the same good results!
Media coverage of war. Can I have some props for Jane? spoilers latest ep. -- Rochefort, 19:31:17 02/25/03 Tue

I think Jane Espenson has just gotten better and better. The two best episodes this season were hers. I mean I want to give her awards just for the flash cards. God I love Jane Espenson.

Everyone agrees she's the funniest, yes. But God can she do drama, too. I mean you all remember Spike's beat up kiss when he thought she was the buffy bot? Not to mention the woman can seriously pull genre busting moves of sheer creativity. And now this.

And was that even the best part? No. Everyone got the commmentary on "televised war", right? The right wing and the news coverage make the situation in Iraq (or o.k. o.k. for you people who don't think Buffy can EVER be political: we can use political rhetoric or media coverage to make ANY complicated event a story) make the situation in Iraq out like it's an Axis of evil. We're the good guys. They're the bad guys. And if we just spill their blood... cause they killed so if we just spill their blood... we gotta get'em cause...

Cause we're heroic. We're democratic. We're the good guys and...

God I could KISS Buffy (or Jane). It's not a STORY! Good people will die! Blood does not end evil! I know y'all keep telling me that ME is not making a statement on current events but I think they're making an incredibly powerful statement about our current events and administration. At least they are when someone is writing who has a real knack for art, comedy, drama, the macabre, the bizarre, the humourous Jane I LOVE you!
[> Media coverage of war. (OT from Buffy) -- RichardX1, 19:45:07 02/25/03 Tue

They've either gotta convince the Armchair Pentagon that we're the "Good Guys", or find a way to revoke the First Amendment's freedom of the press.

Media coverage is what cost us Vietnam. When the average American found out what was going on in this war in Asia, they were shocked and appalled at our military. What they didn't realize is that it was the same s*** we had to do to win World War II. The only way to win a war is to do the kind of things that "Good Guys" would never do (with the possible exception of Chucky *wickedgrin*). Unfortunately, you can't convince the masses of this, not after they'd been corn-fed all that Captain America propaganda crap of "we won World War II because the morally superior side always wins!" So, to justify what the military seems intent on doing, they have to convince us that our enemy is even more Evil than the deeds our side is about to commit. In this case, it means making them out to be soulless demons (and I'm still not talking about BtVS).
[> [> Re: Media coverage of war. (OT from Buffy) -- Rochefort, 21:09:43 02/25/03 Tue

Obviously your point that they need to get us to see demons so that we let them kill is right. I would add that maybe the American public wouldn't want to slaughter and maim PEOPLE if they knew we were slaughtering and maiming PEOPLE because, in fact, :( we don't want to slaughter and maim people. If the government is doing something in our name, we should know what's being done in our name. I agree, we don't need to be fed Captain America, and that's why this episode of Buffy was so great. But I don't think seeing atrocities as atrocities and people as people COST us the war in Vietnam, I think maybe it contributed to saving us from it costing us more. The Nazis made the Jews out to be rats. Maybe the natural human impulse not to kill is the right impulse and we need to allow it and encourage it. To keep US human. But Jane said this all so much more beautifully. Obviously the ex-d out eyes are significant in this metaphor. When we don't look, when we dont' see....
[> The Bush in Buffy? -- luna, 06:20:13 02/26/03 Wed

I agree with the idea of Andrew as metaphor for media, and that it's timely. I'm one of those who thinks that, in a very politicized time, everything is political, whether we want it to be or not.

Until that episode, I was really concerned, and maybe still am, a bit, because the season's arc really was beginning to look a lot like Gyrus' #10, below. Here was the great evil arising, undebatable; here were the heroic forces of goodness arrayed against it. Here were people foolishly unaware of their danger; here was the hero heroically calling the witless fools to a valiant attack. I was beginning to wonder if I was watching Bushy the Saddam Slayer.

The end of Get It Done and of Storyteller have undercut that metaphor. " Evil power cannot successfully be opposed by evil power" seemed to underlie Buffy's decision at the end of GiD, and "blood cannot redeem blood" at the end of Storyteller.

So my trust in ME is restored.
[> [> Hear, hear (spoilers) -- Scroll, 09:33:46 02/26/03 Wed

I was beginning to wonder if I was watching Bushy the Saddam Slayer.

The end of Get It Done and of Storyteller have undercut that metaphor. " Evil power cannot successfully be opposed by evil power" seemed to underlie Buffy's decision at the end of GiD, and "blood cannot redeem blood" at the end of Storyteller.

So my trust in ME is restored.

Thank you, I very much agree, which is why I think Buffy was absolutely right in taking out Spike's chip and refusing the demon spirit in GiD. Because you don't fight evil with evil. You don't defeat the powers of darkness by becoming dark yourself but, integrating the darkness you already have, by transcending the darkness.

Wish the political entities on both sides of our current situation would understand this, but maybe that's hoping for a miracle bigger than snow in California... Doesn't mean I'll stop hoping though :)
He stoppeth one in three (spoilers for BtVS 7.16 "Storyteller") -- Random, 20:28:02 02/25/03 Tue

This is just a throw-off until I've had time to gather my thoughts more coherently (or any spare time, period sigh...)

The conceit of the "storyteller" fascinated me. There were two obvious levels -- Andrew as the documentarian and Andrew as the Grand Poobah of Denial.

The second can and will be discussed at great length here, but it's the first that really caught my attention. What we have here is Andrew proposing to tell the story of Buffy and her compatriots, record their lives and perhaps even subvert that perennial condition of the Slayer: the anonymous sacrifice of her life and youth to save a blissfully unaware humanity from death and destruction. The unsung heroine, the girl who gives up everything so that others may live...even if they never know how close they came to ugly death. It's an time-worn pathos -- as anybody who has ever read a comic book certainly knows.

But despite Andrew's conceit, he is not the storyteller. He is the "humble host," to be sure -- at least of this particular recording -- but it is only when he gets dragged into the action that he actually becomes the storyteller in the first sense mentioned above. There's an interesting, almost metanarrative, aspect to the idea of the documentarian as the storyteller in this ep. It struck me that it is, in fact, apparent from the beginning that the storytellers are actually the ones performing the story.

The visual medium is problematic. Take BtVS the show: it is scripted, directed, and controlled by people who never come on camera (except to joydance their way through strange dimensions or agonize lyrically about mustard or parking tickets.) In most ways, the behind-the-camera people, especially the writers (natch!) are the storytellers. The actors are the interpreters, the ones who add nuance to the story. In "Storyteller," Andrew nudges the action a little (picking and choosing what to film, asking interview questions, giving helpful background info on the Hellmouth, complete with brightly coloured visual aids) but it is clear that he is engaged in following an unfolding saga that he is virtually helpless to influence. It is telling that even when he helps make the Seal dormant again, he does so without knowing what he's doing -- Buffy and Willow manipulate him into fulfilling his part in the tale. Andrew's attempt to document the lives of the Scoobies is actually an attempt to remain outside the storytelling process -- a fact he as much as confirms when he resists being dragged to the school basement. This is especially telling in light of his obvious desire to be assimilated into the Scoobie Gang (as seen in previous eps.) There's something very sad about all this (a phrase which pretty much describes Andrew's entire life.) I think we are meant to understand on a superficial level that one cannot be divorced from the reality one attempts to document. Especially if that reality happens to be sitting on top of a Hellmouth and facing an apocalypse come May. But more fundamental, I believe, is the idea that stories, in real life, are the creations of those who act them out. Buffy's staking of the vampires (is it just me, or are the special effects for staked vampires getting pretty damned awesome?) was not a show she put on -- it was her risking her neck to stop two evil creature who might be killing innocents in forty minutes if she let's them get by her. Willow's saga from nerd to witch to lesbian to killer is something that Andrew can only synopsize, not tell. We the real-world viewers are, of course, treated to a story told by the writers (Espenson is bucking to richly deserve second place in the writing pantheon after Joss himself.) Within the context of the show, however, a powerful message is shaping up throughout the course of the episode. Andrew is the foil that conveys the simple message that not only must a storyteller become involved with his or her story, the storyteller is the story. (It is interesting not only to watch Spike ham it up for the camera -- one of several shades of "Restless" in this ep -- but also to compare this moment to the scene in the kitchen where the newly-returned Big Bad lights up a cigarette and cops an slight attitude toward the possibility of Andrew pointing the camera in his direction.) The point is, the stories are far more complex than Andrew can record. The contrast in Spike's scenes mentioned above is very rich if one understands the backstory behind Spike's newly-revived persona. The Anya/Xander relationship has roots going back four years and going through more travails and complications than any camera (contextually, of course) can possibly capture in a single interview. Dawn's "keyness" is casually touched on -- which cannot possibly capture the true extent of the pathos involved, a pathos that led to Buffy's death, sex with Spike, Spike's soul, et cetera. The point is, the stories captured by Andrew are merely compilations. The show makes the stark point that "storytellers" in the sense Andrew attempt to be are divorced from the suffering and joys of their subjects. Nor can they do more than describe the history leading up to the current state of affairs, and probably can't even do that with any amount of comprehensiveness. They are ignorant and impotent. As such, the story is incomplete, and thus insufficient.

What we have here is nothing less than a commentary of the show itself. In an unintentional way, it's a reward to the fans who have followed the show for years, laughing and crying and caring as the characters grew and changed. They are, in a sense, quite real even to us outside the box. Within the show, they are the storytellers.


Postscript Addendum

BtVS and AtS have always benefitted from the fact that, unlike most shows, they are most definitely controlled by the writers. From Joss onwards (and I believe that situation is perhaps his greatest stroke of genius), the writers have been integral to the show's basic workings -- directing, producing, and, of course, writing the series. Unlike many shows, we've never seen one of the actors in some meaningless, ego-stroke credit, like "executive producer." It is, I think, the defining factor in the greatness of BtVS and AtS.


~Random, who needs to go to bed but would really, really appreciate someone clarifying the rather muddled attempts to make a point here. I think it's an interesting one, but my thought-processes aren't clear enough now to explicate it lucidly. I know there's an original thought in here somewhere, I just can't isolate it.sigh again....
[> Wow, excellent points (spoilers) -- Scroll, 21:08:54 02/25/03 Tue

But despite Andrew's conceit, he is not the storyteller. He is the "humble host," to be sure -- at least of this particular recording -- but it is only when he gets dragged into the action that he actually becomes the storyteller in the first sense mentioned above.

Exactly, Andrew is outside the story, outside of life, until he gets himself involved in the story by finally taking responsibility for his actions. He exists in the story only when he acts and interacts. The rest of the time, he's just a "side-note".

Love what you've written here, Random. I would try to give a more detailed response except I have an essay due tomorrow morning. Time for me to act!
[> Merely Players ... creativity, and fire in Sunnydale (Spoilers, Storyteller) -- Rahael, 03:49:05 02/26/03 Wed

This is a great post. I don't know if my reply will provide the clarity you ask for. (I don't think your post needs it anyway).

It's just a footnote to yours.

But despite Andrew's conceit, he is not the storyteller. He is the "humble host," to be sure -- at least of this particular recording -- but it is only when he gets dragged into the action that he actually becomes the storyteller in the first sense mentioned above. There's an interesting, almost metanarrative, aspect to the idea of the documentarian as the storyteller in this ep. It struck me that it is, in fact, apparent from the beginning that the storytellers are actually the ones performing the story.

This point, and your whole post struck a chord with me. Andrew, by choosing the role of commentator and storyteller actually divorces himself from life, and from being productive in the story telling sense. Instead, he lets go of his agency, and gives it to something else, the First Evil. He abdicates responsibility for his life, and accomplishes the one thing he's seeking to avoid. He doesn't get to be a hero like Buffy, though he clearly wants to be. He doesn't get respect or admiration. Instead he looks up to people that he can never seem to reach.

It illustrates that fantasy is a double edged sword. In fact, I think BtVS consistently attempts to show that there are two kinds of fairy tale, two kinds of fantasy. There's the one which enables you to hide from the real world, hide from pain, hide from the difficult decisions. Then there's the other kind that consistently confronts you with all the pain and complexity of the real world, that allows you to mediate and negotiate difficult decisions, fantasy that leads you straight back to real life, with a creative vision that allows you to transform your own life. Gives you agency. Makes you productive. Makes you imaginative, rather than suck your own creative world dry, replacing it with the visions and stories of people who aren't you, people you can't be and shouldn't be. You should be you.

Manwitch made a post long ago which argued that Buffy is us within the story. She provides our view, our perspective into Sunnydale. We enter through her. I think that this season, this point is underscored even more strongly, precisley because Buffy is not *the* Vampire Slayer, but one of a long line of slayers. The Potentials, who might get to stroll on centre stage. The Slayer role, might indeed be seen as the creative person in the world par excellence. In Normal Again, we are shown that Buffy might be someone with an incredible imagination. In OMWF, we realise that Sweet comes from the world of the imagination, and he brings the fire (which I think is an echo of Henry V 'O, for a muse of fire').

There's a very good post above by Anneth which discusses the role of fire, of 'sparky'. I think one possible meaning is that fire represents imagination, art, creativity (echos in Yeats too, in Sailing to Byzantium!). What Buffy was trying to regain in Season 6 could be read as the colour that used to pervade her world, before dying away to reveal the bleaker, grayer, less rich world of Season 6, with evil Gods giving way to the Troika.

The First Evil doesn't create anything, it just takes over other people. It can't even mimic life, only those who are dead. Vampires too, are not 'alive' and 'creative'. They crave it, but can only access it through the destructive, infertile means of sucking really alive, creative people dry. But I think that both the FE and Vampires possess potential too...this is shown by Spike, and GiD, the demonic power that can be harnessed and transformed.

So Andrew's story might be read as moving from an unfertile, impoverished imaginative mind to one of true imaginative creativity.

And now a footnote to my footnote. Andrew's story really really strikes a chord with me because this is exactly what I used to do throughout adolescence. I gave up responsibility for my life. I gave up agency, I gave up creativity. I filled in with escapist fantasy which slowly poisoned my mind, I withdrew from the real world. The minute I ever felt a moment of true emotion, true pain, I'd instantly try to excise it from my mind. This is not an indictment of the fantasy genre. It's about something all sorts of people do, even those who dogmatically stick to 'reality'.

How did it all end? Why I came to a true crisis (in the sense of a moment in the cross roads where things could either get better or worse). And funnily enough this did involve tears. I never let myself feel true pain and cry. But they started seeping out anyway. When I was 15 I just started crying for no reason at all. Just a little here and there. Then one evening a tidal wave of tears swept over me.

And after that I realised that not only had I not allowed myself to feel pain and sadness, I had banished joy, and happiness and all emotions from my life.

So back to Buffy, as posts here must do eventually, just as BtVS inevitably leads us to our own lives. That is its function, to allow us to rediscover how magical and wonderful and sad and terror filled our own worlds are.

And as Anya reminded us, its about balance. It's not just pure unalloyed emotion that allows us to be creative. It's the marriage of heart, mind, body spirit. It was when I rediscovered real emotions that my mind started delighting once again in studying and reading and learning.

Perhaps that will be the ultimate lesson of Season 7 - how to become our own storytellers. Take our lives centrestage. I don't particularly like the word redemption. But a word that I've always valued in terms of my own life is inward transformation. Not in a "make other people like me by changing myself", but transforming our lives by being the best of ourselves. Achieving the potential inside.

Yet take thy way; for sure thy way is best:
Stretch or contract me thy poor debtor:
This is but tuning of my breast,
To make the music better.

George Herbert
[> [> Re: Merely Players ... creativity, and fire in Sunnydale (Spoilers, Storyteller) -- aliera, 06:30:53 02/26/03 Wed

This point, and your whole post struck a chord with me. Andrew, by choosing the role of commentator and storyteller actually divorces himself from life, and from being productive in the story telling sense. Instead, he lets go of his agency, and gives it to something else, the First Evil. He abdicates responsibility for his life, and accomplishes the one thing he's seeking to avoid. He doesn't get to be a hero like Buffy, though he clearly wants to be.

And here's where I think that the story moves beyond the concept of Andrew or the writers as the storytellers and resonates directly with us as the viewers, the Watchers of the story through the lens of our Tv sets and reencourages to take the show Home.

From the Onion club 9/5/01 Interview:

O: Are you ever surprised by your fans' passion for the show?

JW: No. I designed the show to create that strong reaction. I designed Buffy to be an icon, to be an emotional experience, to be loved in a way that other shows can't be loved. I wanted her to be a cultural phenomenon.

I wanted there to be dolls, Barbie with kung-fu grip. I wanted people to embrace it in a way that exists beyond, "Oh, that was a wonderful show about lawyers, let's have dinner."

I wanted people to internalize it, and make up fantasies where they were in the story, to take it home with them, for it to exist beyond the TV show. And we've done exactly that. ...I think she has become an icon, and that's what I wanted. What more could anybody ask?

Manwitch made a post long ago which argued that Buffy is us within the story. She provides our view, our perspective into Sunnydale. We enter through her.

I think that this is in part the role that Andrew plays for us. He is the weakest of the group seemingly with little potential and in that sense isn't he the most human. He is also attempting to make himself the viewer of the action. I find it wonderfully appropriate that it is Buffy that sparks the change.

And now a footnote to my footnote. Andrew's story really really strikes a chord with me because this is exactly what I used to do throughout adolescence. I gave up responsibility for my life. I gave up agency, I gave up creativity. I filled in with escapist fantasy which slowly poisoned my mind, I withdrew from the real world. The minute I ever felt a moment of true emotion, true pain, I'd instantly try to excise it from my mind. This is not an indictment of the fantasy genre. It's about something all sorts of people do, even those who dogmatically stick to 'reality'.

And this really resonates with me, Rah. But it's also ina sense an experience that seems particualry apt for the time of life that Buffy is in right now. I'm watching Ben and his friends as they navigate the rocky shores of highschool this year and it seems that much of what is going on relates to the process of individuation of finding self of developing agency which for some continues on through college. Then in our early twenties the journey (for some) is more about responsponsibility, actualizing potential but in contrast also assuming roles, giving away part of yourself to fit, to earn a living to take care of others and perhaps loosing that sense of immediacy of agency of of creativity as we're caught in the daliy grind of making a living, loosing the spark, the fire of youth. This to just a stage on the journey hopefully. :-)

I have to run now...check in later. Thanks to Random for intiating the discussion and to you and Scroll for adding to it.



how should my rymes
Gladly engrave thy love in steel,
If what my soul doth feel sometimes,
My soul might ever feel !

Although there were some fourtie heav'ns, or more,
Sometimes I peere above them all ;
Sometimes I hardly reach a score,
Sometimes to hell I fall.

O rack me not to such a vast extent ;
Those distances belong to thee :
The world's too little for thy tent,
A grave too big for me.

Perhaps that will be the ultimate lesson of Season 7 - how to become our own storytellers. Take our lives centrestage. ...a word that I've always valued in terms of my own life is inward transformation. Achieving the potential inside.

KABOOM Rah. That's perfect!
[> [> [> Re: Merely Players ... creativity, and fire in Sunnydale (Spoilers, Storyteller) -- Rahael, 07:56:53 02/26/03 Wed

But it's also ina sense an experience that seems particualry apt for the time of life that Buffy is in right now. I'm watching Ben and his friends as they navigate the rocky shores of highschool this year and it seems that much of what is going on relates to the process of individuation of finding self of developing agency which for some continues on through college. Then in our early twenties the journey (for some) is more about responsponsibility, actualizing potential but in contrast also assuming roles, giving away part of yourself to fit, to earn a living to take care of others and perhaps loosing that sense of immediacy of agency of of creativity as we're caught in the daliy grind of making a living, loosing the spark, the fire of youth. This to just a stage on the journey hopefully. :-)

Wow, that's very true! I've kind of forgot that I may indeed be experiencing a stage of life, rather than having left all my desire to be creative and productive behind at University. Maybe I've just lost that immediacy for the moment. And writing this post reminded me that there are other parts to the 'creative' side to me that I'm developing right now, just as valuable as the immense learning spurt I underwent 4 years ago.


I'm having more thoughts about Creation (i.e Adam and Eve, and other creation stories), creativeness and the First Evil, but I'll save that for another reply in another thread. I don't have anything concrete yet.

Thanks Aliera, and Caroline for the Kabooms!

PS, Aliera, I love, love, love that poem you quoted. But you knew that!
[> [> KABOOM - fabulous post. -- Caroline, 07:31:06 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> Oh that was lovely -- ponygirl, 08:44:10 02/26/03 Wed

"So Andrew's story might be read as moving from an unfertile, impoverished imaginative mind to one of true imaginative creativity."

And in the end he stumbles, he runs out of words, and finally turns off the camera because living without a script, truly connecting to the world in a meaningful and creative way means we must face the void, the uncertainty of the future. We must all be able to step outside the safety of the worlds inside our heads, and that is sometimes the scariest thing of all.

I, too, had a period not so long ago where I really tried to numb myself to the anxiety I was feeling. Managed to clamp down on a lot of emotions that I didn't want to deal with, but along the way also lost drive and creativity and a great deal of empathy. Eventually it all came back (creativity was pretty slow in its return though), it was a hard thing to realize that I couldn't selectively cut out parts of myself. That it is all connected, and that the loss of control has its compensations in wonder.
[> [> [> oooh -- Rahael, 10:06:12 02/26/03 Wed

The Everything is Connected theme! I forgot to think about that!

Some other things that your post reminded me of - in Season 6, Andrew along with Jonathan and Warren secretly film and spy and manipulate Buffy. It's the ultimate power trip for them, making the Slayer jump hoops, being detached and unreachable (Gods indeed!).

In this ep, that little theme is finally dealt with. His false illusion of detachment and being the omniscient narrator are blown away.

I might take this as a warning to myself to prepare for a really heart tugging, throat grabbing, compelling Buffy Finale. Because I haven't felt so involved in the story line since Selfless.
[> [> [> [> Isn't that strange... -- ponygirl, 10:52:10 02/26/03 Wed

I never even thought of the video cameras in Entropy (or Life Serial) until your post! Going totally non-metaphorical, it makes Buffy's annoyance with Andrew's taping quite understandable and Xander, Anya, and Spike's participation remarkable. Though perhaps some Scoobies simply have longer memories than others.
[> [> Welcome back, Rah. Great post. -- Sophist, 08:48:49 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> Back in the Buffy fold, eh? (Thanks Sophist!) -- Rahael, 10:07:31 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> That *was* lovely, Rah... -- Random, 14:43:32 02/26/03 Wed

...sorry I didn't get back to the thread before it archived. I was at work. (I wonder if Masq would un-archive it?) I especially liked the points about creativity and the FE, and the very real danger of disassociation. But this...

Perhaps that will be the ultimate lesson of Season 7 - how to become our own storytellers. Take our lives centrestage. I don't particularly like the word redemption. But a word that I've always valued in terms of my own life is inward transformation. Not in a "make other people like me by changing myself", but transforming our lives by being the best of ourselves. Achieving the potential inside.

...was an amazing insight. That's what I wanted. Perhaps the end of BtVS (as confirmed fer shure fer real today) might not be a complete tragedy with such a denouement.

My thoughts aren't much clearer now (sorry) but maybe some of ya'll posters who didn't get to the original thread ("He stoppeth one in three") could chime in on that thought. (I'll cut and paste and re-post Rah's original post if necessary...or someone else could do it.)
[> [> That *was* lovely, Rah... -- Random, 14:48:26 02/26/03 Wed

...sorry I didn't get back to the thread before it archived. I was at work. (I wonder if Masq would un-archive it?) I especially liked the points about creativity and the FE, and the very real danger of disassociation. But this...

Perhaps that will be the ultimate lesson of Season 7 - how to become our own storytellers. Take our lives centrestage. I don't particularly like the word redemption. But a word that I've always valued in terms of my own life is inward transformation. Not in a "make other people like me by changing myself", but transforming our lives by being the best of ourselves. Achieving the potential inside.

...was an amazing insight. That's what I wanted. Perhaps the end of BtVS (as confirmed fer shure fer real today) might not be a complete tragedy with such a denouement.

My thoughts aren't much clearer now (sorry) but maybe some of ya'll posters who didn't get to the original thread ("He stoppeth one in three") could chime in on that thought. (I'll cut and paste and re-post Rah's original post if necessary...or someone else could do it.)
[> [> [> Thanks, Masq -- Random, 15:04:49 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> Beautiful. -- Etrangere, 15:01:10 02/26/03 Wed

137-1/2 -- cjl, 21:38:55 02/25/03 Tue

Somewhere along the path of every veteran TV writer or film-maker's career, an emotional impasse is reached and the artist almost inevitably conjures up the film-within-a-film (or show-within-a-show): Woody, Fellini, Truffaut, and many other luminaries of moving pictures come to a point in their lives when the sheer joy of narrative alone won't solve their problems. In order to move past the roadblock, they step back and look at how they relate to the narrative process of film-making. Once they've checked out how the mechanics work and how it ties into their emotional lives, they're able to go back inside the comforting frame of narrative.

"Storyteller" may be filled with metanarrative goodies, but it's mainly about how people are trapped within their roles. They're fulfilling their assigned places in the narrative, but they're frozen and unable to move forward, trapped by the strictures of the script. Spike, seen by Wood as the Evil Vampire who killed Mommy, is still posturing as the Big Bad, even though he's outgrown the role. (When Andrew blows the James Dean "get the camera out of my face" shot, Spike very kindly agrees to do a second take.) Wood himself is still trapped in the role of avenging son, nearly staking Spike even though Spike is helping him save the school; and Xander and Anya, one year after their aborted wedding, are still holding on to the pain and mistrust, unable to acknowledge their mutual need, emotionally paralyzed.

But the saddest case of all is our auteur, Andrew. The man behind the camera has all the narrative tricks to distance himself from his emotions, from "altered" flashbacks to fantasy musical sequences, and the biggest film-maker trick of them all--diving into his viewfinder when the problems of the world gets a little too close. Poof. He disappears.

However, Andrew's movie concentrates on the adventures of "Buffy, the Slayer of Vampyres," and Buffy has always been a woman who refuses to be defined by her "assigned" role. She pointedly tells Andrew she's not some mechanized action hero--she's pretty much making it up as she goes along. (The fact that this is one of the best-scripted lines in the episode is another metanarrative coup for Jane E.!) It's Buffy's refusal to play into his fantasy scenarios that shakes Andrew out of his fog; he realizes he's not in one of his comic books anymore, and the true violence and horror of his murdering Jonathan hits him full force. In his final talk to the camera, he lurches out of two-dimensionality and fills the screen as a real character.

Quick notes:

-- Loved the tributes to season 1 and 2. Special favorite was the fade-away student, a salute to the one-and-only Marcie Ross! (Hey, I wonder if Marcie is working with Riley and Sam these days?)

-- Aww. Dawn and Andrew look so cute together. I really hope I'm right about them and they are two-of-a-kind. It would be like X/W The Next Generation. (Yes, I still have a little X/W shipper in me; you wanna make something of it?)

-- Balance. Yes, Anya, we get it.

-- Andrew put a lot of emphasis on Xander as the Heart of the Scoobies, and even passed up W/K smoochies to admire the X-man's professional handiwork. (Andrew. Dude. I like Xander as much as the next guy, but passing on a lesbian make-out session? I'm very disappointed.) More and more, I think it's going to be the wisdom of the heart that defeats the First Evil. A Nietzsche text was clearly visible in the Masterpiece Theater opening, and manwitch's rallying cry of "an act of Love is by definition beyond Good and Evil" is a solid bet for the 7.22 resolution.

-- Not to sound my one note again, but if anybody doubts the Spike/Xander connection at this point--they did it on SPIKE'S COT, for crying out loud!
[> Whoops. Review and spoilers for "Storyteller" -- cjl, 22:07:58 02/25/03 Tue

[> Re: 137-1/2 -- Tess, 22:28:39 02/25/03 Tue

Your take on the roles they are stuck playing is interesting. I especially see this with Spike. Not just in Wood's eyes, but even in his own. Spike's whole identity right now seems to be tied up in being whatever he thinks Buffy wants him to be.

Its interesting that Buffy felt like she needed to warn Spike not to kill the humans.

And with Anya, part of her development in Selfless was supposed to be in realizing she'd never grown into the person she should be, just fell in with whatever came along. Yet in the time since then she's never done anything to develop into that person, just tried to reclaim what she'd had with Xander. And now they've decided that even though they love each other, and still spark, and all that, they aren't right for each other anymore. Or did Anya realize that and Xander just went alone with her? As for them doing it in Spike's bed, it's not like they can hide it from him with his super vamp senses...course those senses might not be working all that well since he got his soul back considering how often he seems to need a flashlight. Which was funny considering none of the student/minions had trouble seeing to attack them.

All in all, I'd say Storyteller touched me even more the second viewing than it did the first time around. Before Andrew's character was strictly comedy relief. Now, I care about this character. Which means he'll probably die in the next episode. They did kinda foreshadow it tonight.
[> Good points, preserving this until I finish my paper -- Scroll, 22:29:27 02/25/03 Tue

[> Re: 137-1/2 -- aliera, 07:59:04 02/26/03 Wed

Thanks cjl! You wrote: "Storyteller" may be filled with metanarrative goodies, but it's mainly about how people are trapped within their roles. They're fulfilling their assigned places in the narrative, but they're frozen and unable to move forward, trapped by the strictures of the script.

And that's very interesting. In a sense, it's what we have done too with the scoobies as viewers. It's also another take on what Buffy has been doing as she assumed the leadership role, wearing the mask of the General and perhaps the real meaning of the First Slayer's words to Buffy that "it's not enough." It's not enough for Xander, Willow, and especially Buffy to step back into their roles of prior seasons, that they'll need to move beyond that.

Notable upgrade: Andrew of course...he's become important to the story.
Notable absence: Giles.
Notable fashion item: Buffy's earrings
Notable language: did anyone catch this? the language on the knife?
Notable line: too many to count great ep

Once they've checked out how the mechanics work and how it ties into their emotional lives, they're able to go back inside the comforting frame of narrative.

Or they and we having seen the sleight of hand involved are ready to move beyond it?
[> [> "Actors and their Roles" for $200, Alex -- cjl, 08:44:09 02/26/03 Wed

That's a big part of S7.

The Scoobies and their various associates have been following the script for six years; they've all had their roles to play, their specific places within the group. Now it's time for them to dump the script and realize their full potential as mutli-dimensional human beings.

Tonight's featured characters and their roles:

SPIKE is no longer the Big Bad, no matter how much "juice" he might get out of the role, and he has to stop adjusting his "character" to whatever his director (Buffy) tells him to play. It's long past time to write his own script.

XANDER and ANYA have always been the big believers in romantic love as the ultimate in self-fulfillment. "Storyteller" confirms their love and at the same time proves that "it's not enough." Both will have to find new ways to define a successful relationship and a fulfilling life.

ROBIN WOOD has got the whole bad-ass ninja educator thing going, but he's still the four-year-old who saw his Mommy killed by a vampire and he's fighting her last fight over and over again. He's got to move beyond vengeance as a motivating factor, make his peace with his mother's memory and move on to true adulthood.

ANDREW has finally realized he's not a character in an X-Men comic book.

And as for Buffy--script, what script? ("A Slayer with friends? That sure as hell wasn't in the brochure.")
[> [> [> Additional note: Primevil and 7.22 -- cjl, 08:51:14 02/26/03 Wed

In Primevil, you had the B/G/W/X quartet combining to form the Scooby Gestalt. These were four flawed individual fusing their best qualities to produce a Being superior to the sum of its parts.

In S7, the next loop of the spiral, the Scoobs may revisit the principle of the gestalt, this time to bring out the best characteristics of the group in each individual memeber.
[> That was great, cjl! -- ponygirl, 08:18:15 02/26/03 Wed

a real brain teaser!!!!!! -- mr trick, 22:47:06 02/25/03 Tue

i've got a good brain teaser. why is it when Jack o'tool (from episode 14 season 3 "zeppo") was killed by human means, but he was still able to be resurrected from the dead. however, in episode 20 season 6 "villains", tara dies and they state that humans killed by human means cannot be restored. so whats the deal? why was jack o'tool able to be revived and tara wasn't? they were both killed the same way! figure that out.
[> Re: a real brain teaser!!!!!! -- I think... (recent Angel ep spoiler), 23:26:46 02/25/03 Tue

Jack O'Toole didn't come back as a full human, like Buffy did, or like Willow would have wanted Tara to. He was some sort of pseudo-zombie, I guess; less zombie than the Wolfram and Hart guys in whatever ep of Angel that was, less zombie than those in Dead Man's Party... I guess there's a zombie-continum and Jack and his buddies were on the less-slow-moving-flesh-eating side and more towards the... vampire-esque-reanimated-dead-people side.
[> [> oops - I filled out the wrong subject lines! -- Anneth, 23:38:35 02/25/03 Tue

Yes. "Message Subject" was supposed to be "I think..." and "Name" was supposed to be Anneth. Sigh. It's late. I should go to bed.

:)
Quick "Oh, *that's* it!" thought on the Seal (spoilers, "Storyteller") -- HonorH, 00:15:23 02/26/03 Wed

Okay, follow my line of thought and tell me if you think this is really the way things went:

In CwDP, Andrew sacrifices Jonathan with the Special Sacrificial Knife. Jonathan's blood flows, the Seal glows, and it's activated. The First, however, tells Andrew the ritual *didn't* work--after all, it's convinced him they'll all "be as gods" after he does the deed, and obviously, well, not.

The truth, though, is that it did. The Seal has been activated, it's spewing forth Hellmouth vibes, and now all it needs is a little more blood to open it and start dispensing Turok-hans. Thus the reason for the First's lies to Andrew, as well as the reason just a little Spike or Xander blood can now open the Seal, when all of Jonathan's blood didn't do the deed.

Now, however, Andrew's tears have deactivated the Seal. The energies it was channeling from the Hellmouth have gone dormant, and without the special knife and another sacrifice, the Seal can't be used as a Turok-han dispenser again. So that crisis is averted--for now.

Do I have anything here, or am I being incoherent?
[> I am in full agreement with your interpretation -- Quentin Collins, 00:29:21 02/26/03 Wed

I think if you are correct, then it does make a lot of what happened seem more coherent. It also makes the FE seem a lot less foolish.
[> [> Re: I am in partial agreement with your interpretation -- MaeveRigan, 14:05:09 02/26/03 Wed

HonorH: "The Seal has been activated, it's spewing forth Hellmouth vibes, and now all it needs is a little more blood to open it and start dispensing Turok-hans. Thus the reason for the First's lies to Andrew, as well as the reason just a little Spike or Xander blood can now open the Seal, when all of Jonathan's blood didn't do the deed."

I think it's just a little more complicated: the blood that activated or brought forth the first Turok-han had to be a vampire's blood. After that, it didn't matter--anyone's blood would do, e.g., Xander's.

This is pure speculation, but given what we know about Andrew's penchant for romanticizing, when he went to the butcher a leather duster to buy blood, I think he may have been previewing what he imagined he would be as a vampire. FE/Warren certainly wouldn't tell him about the "loophole":

ANDREW: I have to do work right now? Can't I just walk around for a while in my coat? ("Never Leave Me")

Maybe Andrew didn't expect to actually be vamped, but Spike was still the FE's sleeper, and once Andrew was within reach, he was triggered to bite him; it would have worked, if they hadn't been surrounded by scoobies.

Once Spike is recaptured by the FE, First/Spike says, "You're the one who couldn't hold his end of the bargain. You're the one who couldn't take care of what's-his-name [presumably Andrew]." First/Buffy continues, "I was going to bleed Andrew but you look a lot better with your shirt off."

Given the sequence of events, there'd be no real reason to bleed Andrew unless he'd been vamped. Theoretically!
[> Sounds about right to me -- Gyrus, 09:06:54 02/26/03 Wed

Hey, technically, Warren and Jonathan are already "as gods" -- if the god in question is Glory.
[> So has the seal been established as the gateway to the hellmouth? -- Masq, 09:09:09 02/26/03 Wed

I made this claim in my episode analysis of "Never Leave Me", and had all sorts of people tell me "We don't know that". But at the time, nothing else made sense to me. What's that seal doing down there in the general vicinity of the hellmouth otherwise? What's it sealing, if not the hellmouth?

It creates all sorts of cans of worms if it is the seal to the hellmouth, like, who put it there since "Doomed" where we apparently saw the hellmouth without it. One explanation for that is that the hole in doomed was a hole in the floor of the library, and the seal was already there, just a floor below in the basement. It was opened by the demon's spell in "Doomed" and by the demon's spell in "The Zeppo".

However, that still doesn't explain why we don't see it in Season 1. When they show the Master "stuck like a cork in a bottle" in the hellmouth, he's just standing there, deep below the school, in a mystical force field.

So when was the seal put there, is it a seal over the hellmouth or not, and if not, what is it sealing?

Inquiring metaphysicians Need to know! Any theories?
[> [> Re: So has the seal been established as the gateway to the hellmouth? -- Gyrus, 09:23:57 02/26/03 Wed

One argument against the Seal being the opening to the Hellmouth is that, on the 2 occasions when we have seen the Hellmouth open wide enough for something to escape (in "Prophecy Girl" and "The Zeppo"), the first thing to emerge from it was the big tentacle-demon, not a Turok-Han. Of course, the army of Turok-Han we saw in GID could probably shove Ol' Grabby out of the way in short order if they wanted to get out first.
[> [> [> The hellmouth beast -- Masq, 09:40:04 02/26/03 Wed

Was killed in the "Zeppo". If we think of it as sort of a guardian for the hell side of the hellmouth door, it's death would have allowed whatever was behind it to emerge the next time the hellmouth was opened--the Turok-han.
[> [> [> [> Re: The hellmouth beast -- Gyrus, 12:19:29 02/26/03 Wed

Ah. I wasn't clear if they had killed it or just sealed it back inside the Hellmouth. In fact, I don't think they said exactly what happened.
[> [> [> [> [> The hellmouth beast didn't die -- can I be Anne?, 12:45:25 02/26/03 Wed

While I'm not a video archivist, The Zeppo is one of my favorite episodes and I'm as certain as I can be that the beast wasn't shown to be killed, just freed of a few of it's limbs. My guess is that the gang found a way to close the gate and force a retreat.
[> [> How about this... -- Darby, 09:52:56 02/26/03 Wed

The Hellmouth is a portal, but we know that there isn't just one Hell, but a plethora of demon dimensions. What if all of Sunnydale (or the school grounds - gymnasium, anyone-?) sits on an assortment of portals to various demon dimensions?

It never has been firmly established that the Seal is under Wood's office, which is where the library used to be (and where Buffy's plants continue to thrive, which they wouldn't over a center of the First's energy). It has been established that the basement walls seem to shift and it's difficult to find your way around (and, one assumes, hard to know what parts of the school above you're wandering under).

I think the Hellmouth is under Wood's office, but the Seal is somewhere else.

Hey, what I want to know is why Xander didn't come back after his close encounter with the Seal and pour a couple tons of cement over it...
[> [> [> Re: How about this... -- Dariel, 10:05:21 02/26/03 Wed

Hey, what I want to know is why Xander didn't come back after his close encounter with the Seal and pour a couple tons of cement over it...

I'm sure he thought of it! Just too hard to get a cement mixer down there, I'd guess.
[> [> [> Dead plants -- Masq, 10:52:27 02/26/03 Wed

"where Buffy's plants continue to thrive, which they wouldn't over a center of the First's energy"

I think that's just the Bringers that nothing grows above or below. I don't think the First can effect physical objects even in that way.
[> [> [> [> That makes sense -- Darby, 10:55:53 02/26/03 Wed

After this last episode, her plants should be dead, though...

The Call of Danthazar -

"C'mon, be a Bringer! Lose your eyes, kill some plants, it'll be fun!"
[> [> [> [> [> Agree, that should be the correct continuity -- Masq, 11:14:34 02/26/03 Wed

Whether the writers Remember that, though, is another question!

; )
[> [> [> [> [> Maybe just a little wilted. -- V, 12:12:06 02/27/03 Thu

[> [> the seal (spoilers Harvest, Zeppo, S7) -- tim, 10:51:53 02/26/03 Wed

Andrew certainly seemed to imply that it was in his Big Board exposition scene, but I personally won't be convinced without some significant retconning. (But then, I'm picky that way.)

Part of the question, of course, is what is the hellmouth? This from 1.2:

The Spanish who first settled here called it 'Boca del
Infierno'. Roughly translated, 'Hellmouth'. It's a sort of, um, portal between this reality and the next.

So, what's in the next reality? The implication has always been that opening the hellmouth would unleash all sorts beasties. To quote just one example (this from The Zeppo):

Buffy: Do you remember the demon that almost got out the night I died?

Willow: Every nightmare I have that doesn't revolve around academic failure or public nudity is about that thing. In fact, once I dreamt that it attacked me while I was late for a test and naked.

Buffy: Well, it'll be the first to come out, and Giles says it won't be the worst by a long shot. The world will be overrun with demons if we don't stop it.

This, then, is my biggest sticking point--the seal seems awfully specific in its purpose. It seems to be a fairly effective Turok-Han vending machine, but where are all the other go-bump-in-the-night types? A reality composed entirely of angry cave-vamps doesn't sound to like what we've heard described before.

So, I see two possible answers here:

1) As Masq mentions, the tentacle demon was a guardian of the portal, a Jossian Cerebrus, if you will, but the next reality is controlled by Turok-han. That would seem to indicate that the Turok-han are the vamp-venerated "old ones," and that it was a Turok-han which created the first vampire, which makes some sense. This doesn't explain where the other nasties are, though.

2) The seal opens some part of the hellmouth, but doesn't throw the door completely open. Rather than controlling the opening for all the beasties waiting at Boca del Inferno, it opens the gate to Turok-han-land only. The best metaphor I can think of is the difference between incandescent light and a laser beam. They're both light, but the laser is much more focused in where that light is cast, and what color it casts in. That would mean that other nasties are still waiting beyond the hellmouth, but for whatever reason, the First is uninterested in using them to forward its goals. This strikes me as thin, but it's the only thing I can come up with that both explains everything and jibes with everything that's come before.

--th
[> [> [> OK, but I'd also like theories on -- Masq, 10:55:18 02/26/03 Wed

Who the hell put the seal there. With the pentagram and the goat, you'd think something Evil put the seal there. But the seal is a barrier between this dimension and the next. A seal the very Evil First needs to find some way to circumvent. So maybe a force of Good put the seal there, with bad-guy symbols on it as a warning "Don't open this!"
[> [> [> [> Re: OK, but I'd also like theories on -- CW, 12:10:03 02/26/03 Wed

Good point. We sometimes do forget to step back and take a look at things from a different angle. We are pretty much in the dark about the forces of good except for the slayer, and a few hints about the monks who created Dawn.
[> [> [> [> A theory. OK, more of a fantasy. -- Gyrus, 12:38:36 02/26/03 Wed

Since the Seal was buried below the cellar, it could certainly have been in the basement of the original high school and never found until now.

As for who put it there, here's my favorite idea: Mayor Wilkins. He needed to build the town of Sunnydale and attract residents in order to achieve his Ascension. Therefore, he would have needed to damp down the Hellmouth's powers to keep it from either scaring everyone away or turning them into Bringers.

Of course, it could just as easily have been some band of ancient Watchers or other random Good Guys, too.
[> [> [> [> Re: OK, but I'd also like theories on -- Random, 15:47:32 02/26/03 Wed

Wow...I hadn't actually thought to ask that particular question. How about this: Evil, as we know, is not a unified force. We tend to view it through the goggles attached to the White Hat, so we percieve evil as a monolithic threat somewhere "out there" -- at least until some particular beastie gets in our face -- but, in reality, evil can claim many, if not all, of the character traits that lead to division and disharmony amongst humans: avarice, selfishness, powerlust, et al. Therefore, it is unlikely that a total victory by one evil creature -- say, for instance, the Master -- would be particularly well-recieved by others -- say, for instance, the Mayor. Therefore, the Seal was placed by a creature of evil as a means of controlling the access to power, or the egress of power from it. Why else would there be a loophole that allows the right being to release a deadly killer Turok-han onto a hapless earth? Doesn't sound like something a force for good would put into place (unless, of course, we get into the whole, "balance and everything has consequences" line of thought.) Therefore, I submit that some evil force, let's say a group of evil monks or something, discovered the access and sealed it specifically to bar the evil from entering the earth. Not out of altruism, but so they alone could control the evil and have the power. It would be such a Richard Wilkins-like thing to do, you know. He certainly wouldn't have been happy with a Master victory bringing hell on earth...but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be ecstatic with a victory of his own bringing hell on earth.
[> [> [> [> [> That goes with my thoughts. -- HonorH, 23:17:17 02/26/03 Wed

Remember that the Mayor put Balthazar (fat demon from "Bad Girls") out of business when he set up shop in Sunnydale. The Forces of Evil strike me as having a Screwtape mentality: eat, or be eaten. Doesn't matter if the thing doing the eating is something good, or something evil that wants you out of the way. The Seal is definitely something Evil, and it was probably placed there by something Evil that wanted to control access to that power. Remember: it's not about good or evil, it's about power.
[> [> [> [> Re: OK, but I'd also like theories on -- tim, 11:05:18 02/27/03 Thu

I like the "good guys warning" idea. But here's another possibility:

The seal and the knife are both ancient, sacred relics that are part of an ancient, sacred ritual in a (possibly) extinct demon religion. Hence the words on the knife: they're part of the liturgy that makes the ceremony effective. While the old practitioners may be long gone, the First remembers the ritual, and the relics are still around, if a tad scattered. That would explain why the seal was covered under so much dirt (it's not been used in millenia) and why no one else has used it before (ditto).

This, to me, would also seem to indicate that it's not the Hellmouth the seal opens, but a different "next reality," one dominated by the Turok-han.

That's the best I can do before I have to go teach class. :)

--th
[> [> requires more research -- Corwin of Amber, 11:59:00 02/26/03 Wed

Seriously, i don't see why the scoobies don't set a guard around the seal 24/7 and start experimenting on the damn thing. We (and they) don't have enough information at this point. Plus we could have a "Prince of Darkness" homage. :)

1. Does the Seal act as a gate on the hellmouth? If so, who put it there, and WHEN? Did somebody put it there AFTER the school was blowed up?

2. The amount of dirt the seal is buried under suggests it's been for a while. I'm guessing it's at least 20 ft below surface level, but i'm no geologist so I don't know how long that means. The area is also geologically active, so it could have been buried in an earthquake (maybe the one the buried the temple that Willow unburied?)

3. Why didn't the construction crews find the damn thing? Or does this happen a lot in Sunnydale?
Worker: "Hey Boss! We found another Seal of Danthazar!"
Boss: "@#$@#$#! Just cover it up and DON'T TELL ANYONE! We're behind as it is!"

4. Did the First use the mystic energies swirling around the Hellmouth to open another gateway, different from the Hellmouth itself? Turok-hania anyone?

5. What do the "evil runes" on it actually say? Maybe Andrew can decipher the darned thing.

6. Does it work both ways? That is, can you use the seal to enter into whatever dimension is on the other side? Can you maybe like, run through, drop a big bomb, and run back through before it blows?
[> [> [> Archelogically - It had to be after the "Bronze Age" of course.*S* -- Briar Rose, 16:19:50 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> One of the runes -- Vickie, 17:15:44 02/26/03 Wed

5. What do the "evil runes" on it actually say? Maybe Andrew can decipher the darned thing.

One of the runes is the glyph for the astrological sign Libra. I noticed it last night. We might be able to catch more if we study the image.
[> [> I think we're gonna have to wait till the season's over to know for sure. -- Rob, 13:11:52 02/26/03 Wed

Personally, I think it's probably A gateway to the Hellmouth, though it might not be THE gateway, meaning that I see the Hellmouth as a pretty huge mystical crack between the dimensions. Perhaps this is but one of the doors.

Rob
[> The Seal of Danzalthar: Betrayals of the Heart -- cjl, 12:18:00 02/26/03 Wed

"In CwDP, Andrew sacrifices Jonathan with the Special Sacrificial Knife. Jonathan's blood flows, the Seal glows, and it's activated. The First, however, tells Andrew the ritual *didn't* work--after all, it's convinced him they'll all "be as gods" after he does the deed, and obviously, well, not.

The truth, though, is that it did. The Seal has been activated, it's spewing forth Hellmouth vibes, and now all it needs is a little more blood to open it and start dispensing Turok-hans. Thus the reason for the First's lies to Andrew, as well as the reason just a little Spike or Xander blood can now open the Seal, when all of Jonathan's blood didn't do the deed."

OK, HonorH, that sounds about right. It falls in with my own theories about Andrew and the Seal, with a few minor adjustments. It is more logical that the ritual succeeded in activating the seal, kind of taking the metaphysical lid off of it, so to speak. Otherwise, everything else in my theory is smooth sailing, five by five:

The sacrifices:

Jonathan - Heart of the Troika
Spike - Heart of the Fanged Four
Xander - Heart of the Scoobies

Each sacrifice was a violation of heart: Andrew violates Jonathan's trust and friendship; the First Evil, disguised as Buffy, mocks and defiles Spike's pure affection for the Slayer; Lyssa, a demon in human's clothing, substitutes herself for Anya and twists Xander's search for Love to her own purposes.

Makes you wonder what the betrayal of heart in 7.22 is going to be that opens up the portal a mile wide and brings the on final conflict.

OK, one immediately pops into mind, but B/S-ers would hate me for weeks.

I'm shutting up now.
[> [> That's a finale speculation rather than spoiler, right-? -- Darby, 13:18:52 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> "It's 9:00, and time for the penguin on top of your television set to explode." -- cjl (channeling Monty Python), 13:32:32 02/26/03 Wed

(Penguin on top of TV explodes; the two fishwives watching the TV recoil in shock.)

FISHWIFE #1 (to ANNOUNCER): How did you know that?
TV ANNOUNCER: It was an inspired guess.

Call my post above "an inspired guess."
[> [> Come on, let's hear it. -- Doug, 14:19:59 02/26/03 Wed

"OK, one immediately pops into mind, but B/S-ers would hate me for weeks.

I'm shutting up now."

I'm really curious as to what you think it might be. I'm drawing a blank at the moment as to what you might mean.
[> [> [> Oh lord....OK, pure spec here. Thought-provoking, as always, but spec. No death threats, OK? -- cjl, 14:54:48 02/26/03 Wed

Spike is de-souled by the FE at the end of 7.21, turns on Buffy, and bleeds her over the Seal of Danzalthar. Slayer Blood throws the door to hell wide open, and transports the entire cast to the FE's realm--the Final Battlefield outside of Time and Space.

This has been the FE's plan all along. Re-souling Spike in "Grave," sending him back to Sunnydale, to be found and nurtured by Buffy. Look at what the manifest spirits do in "Lessons": while Buffy is trying rescue Dawn, one of the spirits stands by the door to Spike's room, as if to say, "Don't look in here!" Of course Buffy looks in there, and finds Spike. They guide her right to him.

As we've gone along S7, each move by the First Evil has been to strengthen the bond between Buffy and Spike. Once the FE knew Buffy would not kill Spike for his crimes under the influence, all the rest--the kidnapping, the chip, the conflict with Wood--has been carefully orchestrated to remove the obstacles between Buffy and Spike, so that Spike would be the closest thing in this world to Buffy's heart.

Then, at the right time and place, the FE would direct Spike to stick the knife in it.

And now, the twist:

In 7.22, the unsouled, Evil Spike flips the other way and saves Buffy, giving her the chance to take out the FE. Yes, I know that's impossible. But I think Joss has been leading us in this direction for the past two years. "An act of Love is by definition, beyond Good and Evil."

As I said, just spec. Pick it apart if you want.

Let's see how it plays out.
[> [> [> [> I agree that's a very good possibility, cjl. Something tells me you're close enough. -- Briar Rose, 16:25:47 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Wow!!!! -- Doug, 17:10:19 02/26/03 Wed

That was something I would never have thought of. No Death Threats from me (not that I would have threatened you anyway, regardless of what you wrote.)

As a personal viewpoint I don't think that's all that likely; since much of season six was devoted to hammering home how soulless Spike couldn't love properly and was the "evil bad boyfriend (a stand that I hated, but that didn't stop Marti Noxon). I'm not sure they'd try something as wild as your idea at this late date.
[> [> [> [> [> Agree, Wow! -- pilgrim, 18:00:37 02/26/03 Wed

I don't know--even souless, bad boyfriend Spike was able to see and understand how badly he had hurt Buffy, and he was capable of taking steps to try to ensure he wouldn't hurt her again. I think souless Spike is up for a grand, dramatic, heroic act to save the life of the object of his obsession/love. In fact, that's more my problem with cjl's spec--would even souless Spike try to kill Buffy? I don't know. We do know that ensouled Spike under the control of the FE was very reluctant, perhaps unwilling, to bite her.

I thought at the beginning of the season that "good" Spike would become part of the Scoobie gang, get close to Buffy (in a friendly way) so that she would begin to rely on him, then Spike would turn on Buffy and the Scoobs, either for his own reasons or because he was being controlled by whoever gave him (or seemed to give him) that soul. I was undecided whether Spike would turn back to good Spike before the final final. As the season has gone along, I've revised my thinking somewhat, mostly because Spike seems so genuine in his struggle to do and be good. But I still like the spec that Spike will turn on Buffy. That scenario promises maximum pain (and perhaps maximum testing and maximum opportunity for overcoming) for all concerned. I wonder, though, why he would do it. And would it be more dramatic, and more philosophically meaty, for him to turn on Buffy while in his right mind and under his own control, or to try to kill her while under the control of the FE and unable to stop the act.
[> [> [> [> [> [> What might do it.... -- Briar Rose, 00:37:36 02/27/03 Thu

I've noticed a very realistic triangle being started here between Wood/Spike/Buffy. There has to be a grand scheme for this to make any sense in the long run. Why else bring another guy into Buffy's life this late in the game?

If PossessedWood can get so worked up about Buffy boffing the Vampire, what would a bloody and pissed SouledSpike think about Buffy boffing Wood? or worse yet... Angel!

The ultimate irony that ME could pull would be Spike getting his soul (for love of Buffy), being contented with Buffy relying on him (I'm not ready for you not to be here), thinking that she finally loves him (She'll tell you.. which I'm sure she will soon enough - if not just when he wants to kill her), saving her life again and again (natch, he's Spike and he does this)... And then her cuckolding him with Wood... or Angel, his most despised competition ever.

We already know that Spike can beat on anyone he wants now. We also know that blood lust is still within his personality. We also know that ME will/has create souled people who are EVIL, look at the Troika and Faith and the Bringers and BlackEyedWillow and The Witch and others... So Spike being souled and a Scooby in practice doesn't negate him being able to lose it and try to kill Buffy or anyone else.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Angel & Buffy 4.22 & 7.22 spoiler within I think -- Helen, 07:25:31 02/27/03 Thu

"And then her cuckolding him with Wood... or Angel, his most despised competition ever."

Well, the second proposition isn't very likely I feel. Either Angel is going to show in Sunnydale as Angel, newly re-souled, and rather gun shy about risking losing it again. Or he's gonna show as Angelus, intent on mayhem and destruction. Either way, I don't think a BUffy Angel shag is very likely. But Wood, that works.

And cuckolding - they're like, married now?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think Spike and Buffy are close enough to married - yeah.*L Rings and papers ain't crucial. -- Briar Rose, 16:32:57 02/27/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> no, but some kind of agreement to that effect is! -- anom, 21:22:45 02/27/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What might do it.... -- Dariel, 14:39:22 02/27/03 Thu

So Spike being souled and a Scooby in practice doesn't negate him being able to lose it and try to kill Buffy or anyone else.

Maybe. But I'd think ME would go for something more subtle. You know--Spike thinks Buffy and Wood are sleeping together, gets angry, decides to hell with 'em, and tries to leave town. Only to be grabbed and triggered by the First.

I guess I prefer the irony--One bad decision creating a world of problems. Very much like RL!
[> [> [> [> Re: Oh lord....OK, pure spec here. Thought-provoking, as always, but spec. No death threats, OK? -- Dariel, 18:52:36 02/26/03 Wed

No death threats, but perhaps a curse or two (in the Buffyverse sense, of course).

I want the ending to be all kittens and puppies, so of course hate this idea. But, more importantly, I think you're stretching it a bit with the "betrayal of the heart" theme in your earlier post. With Andrew and Jonathon, it fits somewhat. However, the other two bleedings over the seal are not actual betrayals of the heart--but pale imitations. Spike in no way thinks that the taunting FE is really Buffy, or that Buffy has got him into this situation. The case of Xander and Lissa is also a pale imitation. Xander barely knows Lissa; her betrayal cannot mean that much to him.

I also don't see the FE carrying out the elaborate plan you've described. Why turn Spike into a killing machine in Sleeper and take the risk of Buffy staking him? Why try to break him, destroy his trust in Buffy, in Showtime? Also, how does the conflict between Spike and Wood make Spike and Buffy closer? It could just as easily do the opposite. Without his chip, Spike is perfectly capable of defending himself, and could end up killing Wood.

Besides, Clem is the one who told Spike about Lurky. Your theory would make our Clem an agent of the First!
[> [> [> [> Excellent post! -- pellenaka, 01:50:08 02/27/03 Thu

[> Wasn't the whole episode (Spoilers through Storyteller) -- Sophist, 14:01:12 02/26/03 Wed

a narration on the line from GiD: "You can't just watch, you have to see"?

Was Andrew just the first to stop watching and "see"?
[> [> Interesting point, Sophist. Something to ponder. -- Ixchel, 16:56:17 02/27/03 Thu

In My Plan we are Beltless -- Rufus, 01:04:31 02/26/03 Wed

As a hostage (or guestage), Andrew has been useful enough to cook but he doesn't seem to get the big picture of why his is at Buffy's or even that there is in fact a war brewing on the hellmouth.

The episode started with the camera panning over a bookshelf with Nietzsche and Shakespeare, numerous artifacts on a table, as well as an open comic and a framed StarWars Comic on the wall.....all this to Masterpiece Theatre type music. We then see Andrew as he sees himself...a man of distinction, coughing down a pipe, and telling a story.....a story about Buffy and the Vam-pire. This wacky dream is interupted by a knock to what turns out to be the bathroom (the only bathroom) door. Andrew is making a documentary with a rather romantic spin to it. What we see and what Andrew see's are two different things. The subject of the tape isn't the thing as much as the stories Andrew tells himself to keep from reacting to the truth.

After getting "permission" to keep taping Andrew starts off with the Big Board (remember Go)....and this board is at least colourful, as colourful as the lie he goes on to tell. Andrew speaks of the Hellmouth and the First.....then moves onto the Seal of Danzalthar which "due to some circumstances" was opened. This is one of the big lies Andrew tells himself....that the seal opened but neglecting to accept the responsibility for being the one who opened it. He also gets some historical facts wrong.....like being the leader of the geeks, being the one to stop the attack from Evil Willow...."haltem"....Andrew says it best "I document I don't participate"....if he's talking about reality he has it right....but Andrew has done some participating, just the wrong kind.

For a guy who is so helpless looking and sounding, Andrew has managed to kill one of his best friends and put the murder weapon in the cutlery drawer at the Summers house (he isn't even original). The thing I noticed the most was the fact that Andrew creates stories to cover up for what he has really done, or not done, with his life. He does take on the flavour of where he is. He was a "supervillian" when with Warren and Jonathon, a killer when influenced by the First as Warren, and now a documentary filmmaker at Buffy's house.....all this while ignoring what he has done to get him where he is now.

Andrew is the most harmless looking of the Trio because he seemed like the Inspector Clouseau of super-villians. Andrew hasn't had an original thought, one that came from his heart, not a comic book or Bond and Star Wars movie. He has no life and everything he does is an attempt to have an adventure instead of living and contributing.

The Biggest joke is the fact that Andrew thought that he, Jonathon, and Warren could in fact "live as gods". While Andrew can be endearing his refusal to accept the truth of his status as a murderer was one thing that kept him from ever becoming someone the Scoobies could count on. Then Buffy held him up over the Seal of Danzalthar.

Willow did some research to see how they could close the Seal that Andrew opened and in a similar fashion to the season two Acathala situation, Buffy allowed Andrew to think his blood was needed to close the seal and perhaps save the world. This moment is when what he had done hit home....no more stories, no more lies....Andrew admitted what he hid from even himself.....he knew that it was never Warren who he was talking to, he knew what he was doing when he lured Jonathon to the Seal and he finally understood the fear that Jonathon must have felt just before he died at the hands of his friend.

Buffy: WELL, I DON'T LIKE HAVING TO GIVE A BUNCH OF SPEECHES ABOUT HOW WE'RE ALL GONNA LIVE, BECAUSE WE WON'T. THIS ISN'T SOME STORY WHERE GOOD TRIUMPHS BECAUSE GOOD TRIUMPHS. GOOD PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE-- GIRLS...MAYBE ME.PROBABLY YOU... PROBABLY RIGHT NOW.

Andrew: DON'T. PLEASE. DON'T! PLEASE! WHEN YOUR BLOOD POURS OUT, IT MIGHT SAVE THE WORLD. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
DOES IT BUY IT ALL BACK? ARE YOU REDEEMED?

Andrew: NO.

Buffy: WHY NOT?

Andrew: BECAUSE I KILLED HIM. BECAUSE I--I--I LISTENED TO WARREN AND--AND I PRETENDED I THOUGHT IT WAS HIM, BUT...I KNEW. I KNEW IT WASN'T. AND I KILLED JONATHAN. AND NOW YOU'RE GONNA KILL ME. AND I'M--I'M SCARED, AND I'M GOING...TO DIE. AND THIS...THIS IS--THIS IS WHAT JONATHAN FELT.


Andrew finally could put himself in Jonathons place and feel the fear that Jonathon did.....and in that moment when he told the truth he finally felt the true impact of what he had done....and the fact Jonathon wasn't going to be a god, either was he. And Andrew cried.....

From the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols by Jean Chevalier

tear: The teardrop evaporates and dies after bearing witness to the grief or pleading of which it is a symbol.


The Seal stopped glowing, it's power seemingly gone because of the tears of the person who opened it. The First has power over people because it makes them believe in things that aren't real, seduces people and brings out the worst in them. Andrew has stood up to the First, and now has closed the Seal rejecting the ultimate Storytellers lies. In the last scene we start differently....Andrew is just Andrew, looking just a little haunted. He talks to the camera as a participant in what will be a war, and he knows he most likely won't survive.

Andrew: HERE'S THE THING: I KILLED MY BEST FRIEND. THERE'S A BIG FIGHT COMING, AND...I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. I DON'T EVEN THINK I'M GONNA LIVE THROUGH IT. THAT'S, UH, PROBABLY THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. I GUESS I...

No more stories, no more hiding from the truth...we see Andrew former believer of lies, teller of tales, out of a parents basement and into a war for real.
[> Spoilers in above for Storyteller...and question: Who is feeding that Pig? -- Rufus, 01:38:46 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> Speculation for a pig -- M, 07:05:09 02/26/03 Wed

What we don't know yet is that this is a pig with a purpose. We know Andrew attempted to sacrifice him to the seal but what we don't yet know is that this pig came back to Sunnydale seeking revenge on those who had killed his Father - Herbert! Look out Xander!
[> [> [> I'm looking for the man who shot... -- pr10n, 10:25:02 02/26/03 Wed

...my hoof? ...my trotter?

Kills the joke, I'm afraid.
[> [> Re: Spoilers in above for Storyteller...Who is feeding that Pig? -- Mystery, 07:31:57 02/26/03 Wed

That pig did look much bigger and healthier...maybe it's a vicious man-eating pig who lures students down into the basement with it's endearing squeals and overall cuteness, then once they are out of plain site, it attacks!! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hmm...I really need to lay off the expresso. :-)
[> [> [> Herbert's soul is avenged ! -- Ete, 14:24:39 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Spoilers in above for Storyteller...and question: Who is feeding that Pig? -- cougar, 11:45:59 02/26/03 Wed

Are we sure that little pinky was in corporeal form? Does anyone remember him actually touching anything or hugging anyone? Also, what was he running from, the big bad wolf? (Fairy tales are real!)
[> [> Could the First be a deceased pig? Herbert or Sid the Sacrifice? -- Darby, 13:16:22 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> Like "Lord of the Flies"? ;) -- Ixchel, 16:18:38 02/26/03 Wed

[> ooh, the pig! i LOVED that scene! -- lynx, 04:44:34 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> I think my favorite line from last night (Spoiler) -- Isabel, 06:56:53 02/26/03 Wed

was Wood's when the pig trotted by.

"God, I hope that's not a student..."
[> [> [> favorite line from last night ...(Spoiler) -- aliera, 07:42:00 02/26/03 Wed

...so much good stuff in this ep and that was a great one. I'd have to pick Buffy's though: "I'm making it up" as a fantastic comment on both her and a meta on the series!
[> [> [> [> Re: favorite line from last night ...(Spoiler) -- pr10n, 10:30:39 02/26/03 Wed

Anya's sincere masturbation inquiry, especially considering her milestone event with Xander, was a highlight for me (big fan of junior high humor, here).
[> [> [> [> [> OT ? -- aliera, 15:22:16 02/26/03 Wed

What does your name stand for? This has been bugging me since last week.
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's no secret -- pr10n, 15:40:15 02/26/03 Wed

It's hacker type-slang for "prion" you know the little protein beastie that drives Jurassic Park?

The last holdover from my cyberpunk phase. I'm begining to think I should release it back into the wild, and choose another nick. Of course that would require a painful reintroduction phase.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tx..that explains it. ;-) -- aliera, 03:10:49 02/27/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: favorite line from last night ...(Spoiler) -- Random, 17:26:26 02/26/03 Wed

Not my favorite -- too many candidates -- but I cracked up when Jonathan and Andrew wake up and Jonathan says, "Oh my god!" and Andrew says, "Jesus!"...pronounced in the Spanish form, Hay-zu. Beautifully subtle moment of pure silliness from Jane.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: favorite line from last night ...(Spoiler) -- Rook, 18:06:35 02/26/03 Wed

Well...if we're doing favorite lines from last night...

"Maybe me. Probably you. Probably right now."

Just liked the intensity of it...it's definitely moved right up on my list of all time favorite Buffy lines, amongst such goodies as "No fruit for Buffy" and "Time's up. Rules changed."
[> So is Andrew the first? (Storyteller spoilers) -- Darby, 07:36:45 02/26/03 Wed

No, not the First, silly.

Is he the beginning of The End, the first to really face his evil deeds and truly accept his role in them? In the trio of Good / Soul / Empathy, Andrew finally can see his acts as they affected Jonathan.

Is this what they all (except maybe Xander and Dawn, and I'm somehow not so sure about Dawn) have to do to finally defeat the First?

Instead of a bang, it would be a very Jossian thing to go out with whispers of love and apology for Buffy and Spike, don't you think?

Anyway, if I'm right then the First will not appear as tempter to Andrew any more.
[> Re: In My Plan we are Beltless -- CW, 07:55:17 02/26/03 Wed

It's interesting that Andrew's idealized view of himself as a suave, sophisticated, and detached gentleman in the beginning of the episode included that pipe. Having comic books beside Shakespeare and Nietzsche isn't so foreign to this board that we can't see they fit into Andrew's broad scheme of sophistication. But, half-choking on that pipe is a different matter. We could say it was just played for laughs. But, it's actually an indication that Andrew knows there's something very false about his vision of things and his place in the world. He could play his games and ignore reality to the point even his geek pals couldn't stand it. But, even Andrew knew his vision was flawed. He knew that Warren was turning from someone out for a good time, into a truly evil, selfish, little man. But, he went along with Warren because it got him closer to his vision of getting respect and admiration from others. The same was true with his life at the Summers' house. He could pretend he was welcome, pretend he was doing something to help, even pretend that it didn't really matter that he'd killed his best friend. But, in the end he understood for a moment how pitiful and unworthy of respect he really is; how callous he'd been in chasing his dreams of "being as gods." We can expect the old Andrew to be back in the next episode. But, perhaps an Andrew with an apreciation of reality a little closer to the surface.

Changing gears. - That opening scene was one of the very first cliches to emerge from television. I suspect it originates from the time before even I was old enough to watch. Most of you here aren't old enough to remember Alistair Cooke's first couple series on American television. One was the major network cultural anthology Ominbus, which was very impressive, but a tad dull for five-year-olds like I was at the time. The other was a very entertaining syndicated series of films from Britain. I distinctly remember two things about this latter show. First, it was eventually taken off my local station when American Bandstand went on national tv (for which I will never forgive popular music!). Second it always opened with Cooke sitting by the fire, telling us hint of what was to come, exactly as he would do decades later when the Masterpiece Theatre (anohter anthology of British productions) became an icon of American television.
Back in the 1950's Ernie Kovacs did a running joke on the narrator of a cultural program sitting in a huge armchair in a pretentious study, which the opening of Storyteller mimics beautifully. In this setting, Kovacs' character, Percy Dovetonsils, would read hilariously bad poetry.
[> [> Ooo! Ooo! Leonard Pinth Garnell (sp?) on SNL, with *Bad Poetry*, or whatever? -- OnM, 09:01:11 02/26/03 Wed

Back in the funny old SNL days, I seem to recall. Was the person you are talking about the original source for this skit? I never knew that!

Percy Dovetonsils? Hee-hee...

:-)
[> [> [> Re: Ooo! Ooo! Leonard Pinth Garnell (sp?) on SNL, with *Bad Poetry*, or whatever? -- CW, 09:12:38 02/26/03 Wed

Actually, I think I saw it first on Milton Berle (called Mr. Television in the early days), before that. But, I was extremely young when my family was still watching his show (early 50's). Even if it did appear on Milton Berle. Kovacs changed it from a one-time throw-away skit into a feature.
[> [> [> [> I should add -- CW, 09:25:44 02/26/03 Wed

Milton Berle was a notorious thief of other comedians' material. If he did a skit on that theme, the geek in the chair, reading bad poetry probably goes back into vaudeville days long before tv. But, again in vaudeville it would have been a canned, one-shot act not a series of acts with fresh material.
[> Regrets, I've had a few -- ponygirl, 08:11:56 02/26/03 Wed

Enjoyed the review Rufus!

I've been thinking about the nature of regret after Storyteller. What is it about that particular emotion that made it necessary to close the seal? It can be paralyzing, but at the same time it's a particularly adult emotion. To acknowledge that certain things will get lost, mistakes will be made and possibilities denied is one of the most painful parts of growing up. When we're young it seems that we exist in an almost limitless state of Potential, but eventually choices have to be made, paths chosen. If you don't feel regret at some point then perhaps there aren't real consequences for these actions.
The Quest for Fire (Spoilers thru Storyteller) -- Anneth, 01:42:33 02/26/03 Wed

Tonight, Anya tells Xander that "we still spark... I get jealous of you, you get jealous of me. We still love each other." I think this is interesting, if not substantial, because of the emphasis that Spike placed on the word "spark" in Beneath You, and earlier, in Seeing Red, the fact that Warren called Jonathan "Sparky."

Of course, the nature of the "Sparky" comment didn't hit me 'til after I saw BY, but it seems significant in retrospect, as Jonathan ended up being the means by which Buffy was able to defeat Warren. He told Buffy to "smash his orbs!" *before* he realized that Warren and Andrew had planned to leave him behind to take the fall for their crimes. So "spark" seemed to mean "conscience." (as opposed to revenge.) And then, in BY, Spike's talk of "a spark" seems to be synonymous for a soul. ("What must he do to be the kind of man who... the kind of *man...*")

Now, in Storyteller, "spark" seems to mean "love." Does the word "spark" simply take on the meaning of whatever the context calls for? Or is it an amalgamation for all that's "good" in the Buffyverse - souls, consciences, love.

So what the heck is this "spark" thing that everyone keeps talking about? First of all, the three characters who've used the word have been evil, souled creatures. Warren, an evil human; Spike, a vampire (evil) with a soul; Anya, a former vengance demon (apparently a demon with a soul, if Selfless is to be believed) - a human who used to be evil. Warren referred to another person as Sparky, Spike obliquely referred to his soul as a spark, and Anya referred to the love/sexual tension/jealousy between her and Xander as a spark. Clearly, the spark is some sort of humanizing element - but it's a nebulous one. After all, it was Anya's love for Xander that helped her begin to understand what makes humans human, Spike's love for Buffy that sends him off in search of that something to make him a better *man* and Jonathan's human conscience that finally compells him to act to help Buffy. But though it's a humanizing element, it is not the ultimate 'humanizer.' (That's probably free will, but I haven't got the energy to get too deep into that mare's nest tonight.)

Second of all, does it have anything to do with Buffy's S6 malaise? Consider her OMwF desire to 'feel the fire' and her attempts to do so by getting into a loveless, mutually-destructive sexual relationship. Is "fire" humanity, then? And is the fact that Anya and Spike both 'feel' a spark indicative of their ongoing quest for humanity?

Has anyone ever seen the movie Quest for Fire, about a bunch of cavemen looking for fire? Is the idea there and here maybe that it's external fire that humanized our ancestors, and internal fire that humanizes us? Considering the emphasis that has been placed on free will this season (Buffy's comment to Andrew several eps back, "you had free will," for example.), maybe one of this season's themes is "What is Humanity?"

Last season sort of revolved around the idea "human, all too human." ("The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves") Every character made terrible mistakes because of something human inside all of them - Buffy's realationship with Spike, for example, had nothing to do with her having "come back wrong" but seemed instead to be a product of her very human need for a connection with somebody - anybody. Xander's leaving Anya at the altar was actually a product of his human fears and insecurities, problems that have plagued his character since S1. Willow's reaction to Tara's death came not from any external source, but rather her terrible human pain at seeing her lover shot to death. Anya's sex with Spike was a reaction to her human pain at being betrayed by the man she loved, not a product of her demon vengence-powers. (The same goes for his reciprocation - yes, they were both 'evil demons without souls,' but they were also conflicted characters dealing with painful breakups.)

So S6 gave us a clear view into the worst parts of every character's humanity. But it also gave us a hint of the goodness that lies within each character's humanity, too, beginning with Jonathan's decision to help Buffy in Seeing Red. It continued through Buffy's realization that she desired to live, to see Dawn grow up, and ended with Spike's soul being returned to him - of his own volition.

Now, here we are, shoulder-deep in S7. We've seen the characters struggle with their humanity as they've been forced to deal with the ramification of their S6 decisions. In Selfless, for example, we were given sort of a bird's eye view into Anya's struggles. She based her humanity around her love for, and with, Xander. In Selfless, and again tonight, she has been forced to realized that that wasn't enough - true humanity is more than romantic/erotic love.

The point that I'm trying to make is, the spark is important, *very* important, but it's not enough. Humanity is a process; it can't just be "sparked" into a conflagaration. It needs to be nurtured and protected. So "The Spark" is probably a combination of conscience, a soul, and love (of many types), and this season is about what it takes to ultimately turn the spark into a fire. Buffy's OMwF yearning to feel the fire is echoed by every other character on the show, but currently most obviously by Anya, Spike, and Andrew. Although it is also present in Xander, Willow, and Dawn, and of course, Buffy. I suspect that the idea is, and will continue to be, that it is free will that feeds and nurtures the spark - each character is currently struggling with their free will. Dawn, in Potential, is a good example: her true potential lies not in her slayer-in-training-ness but in her inherent human potential to be a good person. Something she has total control over. She can't control whether or not she is a potential slayer, but she can control how she deals with that knowledge.

Hope that makes sense. Moral - spark = rudimentary beginnings of humanity in every Buffyverse character. The BtVS journey is, this season, a "quest for fire" - the effort each character must of his or her own free will put into his or her development as a human being.
[> Great post -- Rahael, 03:52:09 02/26/03 Wed

I draw upon it in my reply to Random's thread, below.
[> Re: The Quest for Fire (Spoilers thru Storyteller) -- aliera, 05:43:52 02/26/03 Wed

Now, in Storyteller, "spark" seems to mean "love." Does the word "spark" simply take on the meaning of whatever the context calls for? Or is it an amalgamation for all that's "good" in the Buffyverse - souls, consciences, love.

Thanks Anneth! The question: Isn't "spark" a term that resonates with both western and eastern philosophy? I was taking it at the time as both a reference to soul and also the more mechanical spark plug but my philosophy background is very scanty. Could someone with more knowledge flesh this out?

I found your conclusions especially attractive, Anneth. The spark seemed to imply both what was necessary to jump start a process and also human consciousness. Really enjoyed the post.

From Alice Baily:
The strictly Oriental position is given us by Dr. Radhakrishnan, of the University of Calcutta, as follows:

"All organic beings have a principle of self-determination, to which the name of 'soul' is generally given. In the strict sense of the word, 'soul' belongs to every being that has life in it, and the different souls are fundamentally identical in nature. The differences are due to the physical organizations that obscure and thwart the life of the soul. The nature of the bodies in which the souls are incorporated accounts for their various degrees of obscuration... The ego is the psychological unity of that stream of conscious experiencing which constitutes what we know as the inner life of an empirical self.
"The empirical self is the mixture of free spirit and mechanism, of purusha and prakriti... Every ego possesses within the gross material body, which suffers dissolution at death, a subtle body, formed of the psychical apparatus, including the senses."
- Radhakrishnan, S., Indian Philosophy, Vol. II, pages 279, 283, 285.

This soul, we are told, is a fragment of the Oversoul, a spark of the one Flame, imprisoned in the body. It is that life aspect which gives to man - as to [54] all forms in manifestation - life, or being and consciousness. It is the vital factor, that integrating coherent something which makes the human being (composite, yet unified, as he is) a thinking, feeling and aspiring entity. http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/intellect/inte1016.html

*****

"After the Floods roll back...I'm gonna be a Fireman." ---BUFFY

This always struck me as backwards...that because she already was a fireman in the sense of sparking the other characters the floods would roll back. Thanks again, hope someone else will add to this...
[> [> The Spark / The Heat / The Flood / And the Fire(wo)man -- OnM, 08:29:43 02/26/03 Wed

Still gathering my own thoughts about this, but just a couple of quick responses:

"I'm gonna be a Fireman after the Floods roll back."

*** This always struck me as backwards...that because she already was a fireman in the sense of sparking the other characters the floods would roll back. ***

Like many fans, I have been pondering the true meaning of this cryptic and wonderful phrase since it appeared in Restless, and I've been able to assign a number of possible meanings with the passage of time. Considering the events of Storyteller and it's predecessors this season, my current interpretation relates to what a fireman actually does in the real world-- controls fires.

You might reasonably respond that firemen 'put out' fires, but that isn't entirely true-- you can't put out fire-- fire isn't evil, it's essential. It's a source of light and warmth, when it's under control.

I think the 'floods' were the events of season 6, where the characters lost control of their lives-- the 'fires' raged unchecked. In season 7, we have seen Buffy repeatedly tame the raging fires, and bring them under control, not extinguish them.

As to 'spark', a fire cannot start without it, whether it burns for warmth or burns for destruction. And so this doesn't end on a completely metaphorical note, be aware that in the internal combustion engine that most of us drive around with every day, the spark plug does not cause an explosion of the gasoline and air mixture in the engine's cylinders-- it excites a controlled burning process that yields smooth and useful energy output.

Not very romantic, perhaps, but very accurate.

;-)
[> [> [> Re: The Spark / The Heat / The Flood / And the Fire(wo)man -- CW, 08:38:57 02/26/03 Wed

We don't think of it much any more, but the fireman on a steam locomotive was, indeed, the person who controlled the fire, not one who put it out.
[> [> [> [> Oooo, good one, CW! -- OnM, 08:53:11 02/26/03 Wed

I also think that part of the charm of the Buffy fire/flood phrase was the juxtaposition of the two 'opposite' elements.

And of course, a steam locomotive uses water to derive energy from, via controlled fire.
[> [> [> [> Are we taking "fireman" too literally or not literally enough? -- cjl, 08:54:19 02/26/03 Wed

Suppose it's not "fireman," as in guy with funny suspenders who puts out fires with big hose. What if it's "fire-man," bringer of fire--Buffy as Prometheus?
[> [> [> [> [> ATPo: River deep / Or mountain high / No metaphor / We cannot fly / ;-) -- OnM, 09:08:02 02/26/03 Wed

Well, if the firemen in question are 'beltless', wouldn't they need suspenders? Inquiring minds want to know!
[> [> [> [> [> I like that, CJL -- Prometheus -- Rahael, 09:59:16 02/26/03 Wed

Fits in with all the fire from heaven stuff I keep being obssesed about.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Anthropology induced rambling -- Etrangere, 14:17:01 02/26/03 Wed

I'm gonna be a fireman after the flood rolls back

What's symbolical of after the flood is peace. The dove that Noe sent and which came back. (The SuperSlayer changed bullets into doves in Primeval) Then there's the rainbow which is symbolical of the renewed alliance between God and Noe.
There's a difference in the way that sacrifice is concieved in "pagan" religions (the mains exemples usually used are the sacrifice that initiates Prometheus for the greeks and the sacrifice of Purusa for the Hindu) Those sacrifices are used to maintain the order of the world, of the cosmos, which is definited as the separation of the human world and the divine world. The sacrifice actually acts on to the cosmos.
This is the Gift. The Key was bringing those worlds together in chaos, Buffy's death stopped it.
But for the monotheistic religions, the sacrifice is considered difference because everything in the world is the result of the will of God. Then the sacrifice is used to remind God of this alliance between Him and humanity (first striken with Abraham and a second time with Noe)
In both judaïsm and islam, there is still those kind of sacrifices. In christianism, there is only a simulacrum of sacrifice, the eucharisty, because the death of Jesus Christ is supposed to end all sacrifices for ever.
In Bargaining it was the Buffybot, a simulacrum of Buffy, which was sacrificed to bring order back to the world.

I also think with Tchaikosky it probably has happened already. Flood was depression, being overwhelmed by emotions she didn't understand. She seeked it out and found it back in Grave.
Fire, something ambigus. It's dangerous, but it's needed, it's useful, it's priceless.

Like life.

I'm probably totally off :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great post! -- Rahael, 09:14:50 02/27/03 Thu

[> [> [> One more spark -- tomfool, 09:09:31 02/26/03 Wed

That's probably my favorite line from Restless too, and that's as good an interpretation as I've heard. Although I still think flood could be referring to the final battle and fireman could refer to Buffy returning to a normal life and having a normal job once the Hellmouth is closed (floods roll back).
One more use of the word spark is in the song Walk Through the Fire during the big group sing. There are different characters singing at the same time and the first two lines are particularly telling when taken together:

What's it going to take to strike a spark? - sung by Giles
It's what they have inside - sung by Sweet
She will come
These endless days
Are finally ending in a blaze
All: And we are
Caught in the fire
The point of no return
So we will
Walk through the fire
And let it burn
Let it burn
Let it burn
And let it burn!

Spark = what's inside a person. And of course the song ends with the image of the fire truck roaring by. This just supports everything Anneth, aleira, and you already said.
[> [> [> [> Re: One more spark note...;-) -- aliera, 15:19:04 02/26/03 Wed

Spike: "No touching! Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh. My flesh. Nothing else, not a spark. Oh, fine. Flesh, then. Solid through.

From Beneath You.

Spike: "Angel- he should have warned me. (Buffy begins to realize what he's talking about.) He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me... all the time. The spark. (pause) I wanted to give you... what you deserve. And I got it. They put the spark in me. And now all it does is burn."

Buffy: "Your soul."

Spike (laughing): "Bit worse for lack of use."

It's never just one thing for me; I think that sells the show short (this might just be the way I'm wired though!) but it seems to me, that's why spark is used because it will bring up all these different equally true references.

Thanks for OMWF quotage...I forgot about that. :-)
[> [> [> Re: The Spark / The Heat / The Flood / And the Fire(wo)man -- Darby, 09:37:12 02/26/03 Wed

My take, from the context ("...I shop, I sneeze..."), was that Buffy still wanted to get her life on a normal track ("fireman" being something that many kids want to be when they grow up, is heroic in a "normal" way) after her abnormal track of dealing with the flood of otherwordly types was over. She has repeatedly talked of doing "normal" things after whatever-apocalypse-they're-fighting is averted.
[> [> [> The 'It's Already Happenned!' perspective -- Tchaikovsky, 11:29:02 02/26/03 Wed

As with many Whedon lines, I think this one could either never be resolved neatly, or, like the 730 line, be resolved rather obviously at some point in the future. Considering I am always too scared to engage in speculation, I here give my best interpretation from events that have already occurred.

'I'm going to be a fireman when the floods roll back.'

Season Six, Episode Four. 'Flooded'

The 'Flooded' description refers both literally to her house, and metaphorically to Buffy's life, and her inability to wade through all the financial difficulties. This is highlighted both by her staring at the water running from the tap, and by the long-running House Metaphor [TM ponygirl]. This is the first episode of the season where we see Buffy attempting and only partially succeeding in reverting to her pre-Death self. The water has made everything too difficult, and has put out the fire.

Season Six, Episode Seven. 'Once More, With Feeling'.

Buffy and Spike paralleled. Spike's 'torch' is 'scorching' him. He has an excess of emotion towards Buffy. The fire represents pure, visceral emotion, and an enjoyment of life. Giles realises all too well that Buffy is so overwhelmed by life [still flooded], that it's going to be difficult to set her fire going. 'What's it going to take to light a spark' is the metaphorical isomorphism to 'Is my Slayer too far gone to care?' in the same song. Buffy realises this problem too. 'I touch the fire and it freezes me/I look into it and it's black/ Why can't I feel, my skin should crack and peel/ I want the fire back'.
Buffy wants to be the fireman, but can't, because she's still 'Flooded'.

Season Six Episodes 12, 15, 17

These episodes: 'Doublemeat Palace', 'As You Were' and 'Normal Again', emphasise how Buffy is still 'Flooded'. Buffy finds the grind of 'subsistence level employment' too much. She doesn't have the quippy, sparky side that got her through High School. She is also sparkless compared to Riley, and eventually wonders whether her lack of enthusiasm isn't to do with the fact that Sunnydale is all some fantastic but inconsistent illusion in her (mad) mind. Still 'Flooded', still no fire.

Season Six, Episode Twenty Two- 'Grave'.

An episode all about the four Elements, (rather like 'Primeval' was all about the four essences of being). Willow, the spirit, the breath, the air, attempts to destroy the world by raising a temple into the air from out of the Earth. She has earlier shown her apparent power over emotions by throwing fire (heart) through the air ot attempt to destroy Xander.

Earth, (Hand), is represented by the Earth Monsters. Buffy is back in her Grave, and must again attempt to dig herself out using only physical ability. But eventually, fire (Heart/spark) wins the day. Xander saves the world with his mouth, not burnt up by the apparently fiery charges Willow sends at him. Dawn and Buffy and Willow all cry water (Mind) when the gain the full realisation of how they have been behaving wrongly. There's knowledge there.

But ultimately, Buffy casts off the fog of mere knowledge. In an epiphany, she sees how she's been misundertanding Dawn's journey, and therefore her own. This is exactly 'what it takes to strike a spark'. Dawn. Dawn made Buffy die in 'The Gift', and makes her live in 'Grave'. Dawn and Xander's heart saved her. Finally, the floods have rolled back for Buffy, and with the fiery sunrise, she regains her spark. At the end of 'Grave' Buffy has fulfilled the prophecy:

I'm going to be a fireman, when the floods roll back

TCH
[> [> The Divine Spark -- Dariel, 11:37:49 02/26/03 Wed

This soul, we are told, is a fragment of the Oversoul, a spark of the one Flame, imprisoned in the body.

In analyzing BY, someone on this board postulated that Spike was talking about the "divine spark" in the church scene with Buffy. Sounds very similar to the above description of the soul, although it comes from Western, Christian theology. Spike felt that his soul was, in a sense, a piece of the divine.

Although he also says, looking up, that "He hates me." At that point, the soul/divine spark was giving him nothing but pain. (Funny how Spike is the one person on BtVS who seems to believe in God!)
Wood's Rearview Mirror -- EXPLAINED!! (Storyteller spoilers) -- Rachel, 07:52:56 02/26/03 Wed

Andrew's filming Buffy dusting vamps and remarks that he can't see the vamps on his screen. I assume it has to do with the no-reflection thing for vamps. Even Angel, when he had a soul on BtVS, didn't have a reflection. BUT THEN we see Spike ALL OVER Andrew's camera screen...too many times to be a minor mistake. Perhaps Wood DID see Spike in his rearview mirror -- and then only realized that Spike is a vamp when he went into vamp-face. Just what kind of creature is Spike??
[> Re: Wood's Rearview Mirror -- Rachel, Great Catch! -- Walking Turtle, 08:03:26 02/26/03 Wed

[> Re: Wood's Rearview Mirror -- EXPLAINED!! (Storyteller spoilers) -- CW, 08:10:16 02/26/03 Wed

I noticed that, too.

I guess my I idea of a new Buffy-homing, you-can-see-this-vamp-in-the-mirror chip in Spike's head isn't so crazy after all. ;o)
[> Sorry, but I have to refute this. -- Rob, 08:15:37 02/26/03 Wed

The problem is, vamps have always been able to show up on video cameras. There's an explanation of it here.

And, if you read the closed captioning, Andrew did not say that they DIDN'T show up on his video. He said to Buffy, "Why do vampires show up on video?" Which means they did, and they do. So, no new evidence there to suggest Spike isn't any more than a normal vamp + soul.

Rob
[> [> Agree with Rob. See Halloween -- tomfool, 08:21:16 02/26/03 Wed

Was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to the punch. I think this was actually metanarration on this point established back in Halloween.
[> [> Re: Sorry, but I have to refute this. -- CW, 08:27:11 02/26/03 Wed

On second viewing your right, Rob. But, Lenk partly flubs his line and it sounded the first time as if he was saying "Why didn't vampires show up..."
[> [> The reference... -- Darby, 09:25:11 02/26/03 Wed

In a lot of other vamp mythologies, vampires not only cast no reflection but will not show up on film or tape. I'm sure Andrew was referring to how Spike broke those rules.
[> [> And on Angel that time... -- Sofdog, 11:21:56 02/26/03 Wed

..Cordy and Wes were researching the Hyperion while Angel was trying to find out about the fear demon in the hotel. Cordy says something like,"It's not that vamps don't photograph, it's that they don't photograph well," when they find an old photo of Angel.
Feeling Incredibly Sad Today - SMG & Other Departures (?) BE WARNED - *SPOILERS* thru 7.22 -- Angelina, 08:59:33 02/26/03 Wed

I was totally floored by Storyteller last night, which I guess was a bittersweet moment in time, since I just read the post confirming Sarah will not be returning as Buffy. I have never felt this sad about a show ending. Not even when David Ducovney left X-Files, and I thought I was gonna expire then! I really enjoyed every moment Sarah gave us as Buffy. In the 7 years that I have been loving this show, I know it was because of Sarah's interpretation of Buffy. She gave us so many glorious performances. I am going to truly miss seeing that gorgeous face every week. Heavy Sigh. I am now going to put forth a HORRIFIC spoiler I saw posted on this board the other day. It was about the untimely demise of one bleached blonde vampire with a soul. Dear Sweet Joss, if you kill off the amazing character called Spike, you are going to totally piss off an entire nation(s) of fans, who will have nothing further to do with you. Fans have long memories Mr. Whedon. We don't forget. And we won't be tuning in to any of your future TV endeavors, short as they will be, if you betray us now with this HORRENDOUS development. Beware and Be Warned. It is bad enough we are losing Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I will simply not be able to bear the loss of Spike. Don't do this just because you can, it is totally unfair. I am so serious.
[> Re: Feeling Incredibly Sad Today - SMG & Other Departures (?) BE WARNED - *SPOILERS* thru 7.22 -- amber, 11:42:05 02/26/03 Wed

Nah, Joss can kill Spike if he wants to. At least in my opinion. And don't get the wrong idea, I love Spike, I love JM playing Spike. Spike and Dru were actually what made me watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer. When I first started watching I was rooting for the villains. It wasn't until Spike and Dru went away in Season 3 that I started to notice and really like the members of the Scooby Gang.

Anyway, my point is that Joss is a great storyteller and I'm willing to go along for the ride, however he wants this story to play out. One character doesn't make or break my appreciation for Joss's work and even if he did kill off all my favourite characters I'd still be watching "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" or anything else he has on television. Heck, the man could read his grocery list live on UPN once a week, I'd tune it, I'd tape it even.

I'm there for the story that Joss and the other writers are telling. I know from reading interviews that Joss cares about all his characters. If Spike dies this season, or if any of the other main characters do, it's because it's right for the story in Joss's opinion. Plus, after seven years of viewing, I just know that Spike's death wouldn't be stupid. He's not going to accidently fall on a picket fence or anything. There will be a reaon and a purpose behind his death.

So it's crazy, because I absolutely love this show, but I'm looking forward to the series finale. Joss and co. have spent seven years telling a really great tale, making us love and hate the characters, making us think, making us sit at our computers and write out long analysis of the episodes. Personally, I want can't wait to see how it all ends.
[> [> Re: I guess you are right, amber - I'm just sooooooo crabby today. -- Angelina, 12:07:15 02/26/03 Wed

And there is NOTHING to watch on television anymore. I'm not a big Angel fan, so my days in the Buffyverse are going to be consigned to replaying the Buffy DVD's and watching syndication. Or...I could start watching Angel regularly.
:-(
[> [> [> Re: Angel -- amber, 12:26:56 02/26/03 Wed

You should give Angel a try. The majority of episodes are really quite good. Plus, it doesn't really have that first season awkwardness that most shows suffer from, because ME already knew who their characters were and what they wanted to do with them. Not to mention the occasional cross-overs with past Buffy cast members.
[> [> Re: Feeling Incredibly Sad Today - SMG & Other Departures (?) BE WARNED - *SPOILERS* thru 7.22 -- Masq, 12:32:52 02/26/03 Wed

"He's not going to accidently fall on a picket fence or anything."

Or if he does, it will have some deep tragic meaning to it.
[> MSN Entertainment News today... "eyes welling with tears...." link enclosed. -- Briar Rose, 13:05:29 02/26/03 Wed

http://entertainment.msn.com/news/article.aspx?news=115884

I would have liked to be a fly on the wall with this entire story.... If SMG was actually crying, I have to wonder if the contract issues weren't the reason why the series isn't going forward.

Normally an actor that gets into a contract dispute isn't crying when they anounce they aren't returning - they usually spin it into "I'm doing a great thing here. I'm happy."
[> [> The tears may be hyperbole -- KdS, 13:11:42 02/26/03 Wed

And don't you just love stories by journalists who obviously gave up keeping track late S3?
O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Wisewoman, aka dub ;o), 10:10:27 02/26/03 Wed

Hi Guys

In the last week or so I've been forced to face some not-very-pleasant truths, the main one being that I did not escape from last year's brain surgery as unscathed as I assumed. On the surface I appear to be the same person, but I now realize that's because the changes are more subtle, and insidious.

The changes that have affected my participation on this board are short-term memory loss, inability to focus and concentrate, lack of impulse control, and general loss of enjoyment in things that were previously very important to me.

I realize that I have no clear idea of the sequence of events on BtVS since Spring of 2002. I have a hard time remembering the names of eps, as well. Not such a big deal when I have everything on tape and can rewatch eps whenever I please, but it is critical to understanding a new episode. I need to be able to remember what's happened recently that makes the events of a new ep significant, and I can't. I just kinda sit and watch it as if it were a stand alone one hour movie. I don't concentrate on it as I did in the past, in order to participate in the analysis and discussion.

Because of this I tend to just skip over any long and insightful threads on the board. I just don't get excited about it any more, and I can't concentrate on the discussion.

What's more damaging, IMO, is that I now seem to be experiencing unreasonably negative and angry reactions to some posts that, in the past, I would have just ignored. The number of times I've deleted vicious flaming messages just before approving them for the final time is frightening, to me anyway.

So, I am not in any way saying "Good-bye." I'm just explaining why I'm mainly lurking these days. I'm still looking forward to seeing as many of you as possible at the Big Buffy Bash in Vancouver in June. The recent news reports make it look as if this will indeed be a farewell celebration, for Sarah at least.

Cheers,
dub ;o)
[> Oh, Dub I'm so sorry to hear this -- Rahael, 10:19:39 02/26/03 Wed

I just cannot imagine what this is like. But my thoughts are with you.

With lots of love, and hopes that you won't become completely absent from here.
[> I, for one, have missed you -- dream, 10:19:46 02/26/03 Wed

I've noticed your absence, and wondered how you were doing. I am so sorry to hear your recovery is not going well. This must be an extremely difficult time for you. I can only express my deepest wishes that things might improve for you soon. I am sure everyone here feels the same way.
[> I don't know what to say -- Scroll, 10:34:47 02/26/03 Wed

I don't know what to say except I hope the doctors will be able to help you. This must be so frustrating and frightening for you. Please don't stay away too long. We'll miss you. From what I know you are a spiritual person but not from a Judeo-Christian background -- would it be okay if I prayed for you? (Though that sounds really hokey even as I write it...)

I'm going to do my best to come to the Board Gathering in June. It's about time I saw what the west coast of this country looks like : )
[> [> Re: I don't know what to say -- dub, 13:30:55 02/26/03 Wed

Thank you so much, Scroll. I believe that prayer helps regardless of personal belief system.

I'm so looking forward to meeting you and everyone else who can come in June.

;o)
[> [> [> Vancouver, here we come! -- Scroll, 16:40:55 02/26/03 Wed

[> Be well -- ponygirl, 10:39:02 02/26/03 Wed

My wishes that this is just a bump on the road to a total recovery. Take care.
[> Glad we'll have you around in some fashion! -- Masq, 10:49:21 02/26/03 Wed

Do what you need to do to take care of yourself, Dub. Post when you're able and say "Hi!" We'll be missing your daily virtual smile.

Masq
[> Thanks for saying something... -- pr10n, 10:55:50 02/26/03 Wed

Thanks for telling us about your real life. I have some spare positive energy I can add to the cosmos on your behalf.

[revs up prayer and laughter...]
[> Sorry to hear that you're having a hard time -- Dariel, 10:56:20 02/26/03 Wed

I always enjoyed your posts, and wondered how you were doing.

I, too, hope your doctors can offer you some help. Just a thought: Some of your symptoms, particularly the anger, sound a lot like depression. So you might want to look into that.

I don't mean to presume here; I'm no doctor. Just a frequent patient!
[> Grrr Arrrrrgh! -- Vickie, 11:00:41 02/26/03 Wed

Guess it's time to rev up the Reiki again. Email me, ok?

be better.
[> [> Re: Grrr Arrrrrgh! -- dub, 12:52:03 02/26/03 Wed

Thanks, sweetie. I'll e-mail as soon as I get myself together...I'm having a weepy day, but I think I'm enjoying it...

;o)
[> Thinking about snow (as usual) -- Tchaikovsky, 11:03:26 02/26/03 Wed

Really sorry to here this dub.

I am reminded of your 'Snow for dub' campaign at the end of last year. That despairing moment when it appeared that there was no chance, and then it suddenly appearing. I was so pleased!

Let's hope that all of us can focus the same positive energy again, and have another good effect.

I will miss your posts. But it's nice to know that you will still be around here somewhere.

TCH
[> wishing you ice cream and puppies! -- anneth, 11:07:54 02/26/03 Wed

I wish you all my best. Take care.
[> Regrets & hopes for improvement -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 11:30:11 02/26/03 Wed

I too have wondered and been saddened by your absence; I am even more grieved to learn that this is due to ill health.

I hope that the medicos can make you better.

Heal. I hope that you will heal.
[> [> Re: Sending as many "good vibrations" as humanly possible -- Brian, 11:35:16 02/26/03 Wed

[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Alison, 11:39:16 02/26/03 Wed

I'm fairly new here, but I've consistantly enjoyed reading your posts, and am sorry you no longer derive the same pleasure from writing them. I hope you'll keep sharing your thoughts from time to time. Feel better.
[> You remain among the wisest of women, dub... -- Resh, 11:53:58 02/26/03 Wed

We are all sending you a stream of positive healing energy. My contribution is a soft, persistent swell of warm light the color of love.
[> This saddens me greatly -- Cactus Watcher, 11:54:08 02/26/03 Wed

My prayers for your full recovery are with you. Believe me when I say things will improve for you with time. Don't stay away from your friends here, in the meantime. To parapahse that old song, we love you just the way you are.
[> You may be temporarily absent from the board, but never permanently absent from our thoughts. -- OnM, 12:06:48 02/26/03 Wed

Blessings be with you.

*******

Wood: She got it done...

Spike: Always has.

*******
[> [> Ya see? No brain surgery so far, and I *still* dropped the damn tag! -- OnM, 12:39:24 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> LOL! -- dub ;o), 13:33:23 02/26/03 Wed

[> Now that Rah has revealed my hypochondria . . . -- d'Herblay, 12:07:54 02/26/03 Wed

. . . I can tell you that dub's valediction has brought me to my own unpleasant truth. Apparently, unknown to me or to anyone who might have told me, I, too, have recently undergone brain surgery. Or, at least, I am showing a lot of the symptoms. Let's diagnose:

I realize that I have no clear idea of the sequence of events on BtVS since Spring of 2002.

Me neither. Was "Him" before "Help" or vice versa? Why do I have this strange recollection of Giles hanging around Sunnydale for weeks on end between the time a bringer swung an axe at his neck and the time he caught the axe?

I have a hard time remembering the names of eps, as well.

Me too. This, however, is nothing new. In the past it's hit me more with Angel than with Buffy. I am usually only able to recall titles of episodes that featured Cordelia prominently snarky; I can tell "Rm W/ a Vu" and "Disharmony" right off, but please don't ask me to summarize "Dear Boy" or to distinguish "Through the Looking Glass" from "Over the Rainbow." This season, despite some confusion between "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" and "Spin the Bottle," most of my problems have been with Buffy. I simply cannot remember what happened in "Never Leave Me." "Potential"? "Bring on the Night"? I think Buffy gave some sort of rousing speech that will become obviously ironic in light of the season finale in it, but other than that, I couldn't tell it from another.

Not such a big deal when I have everything on tape and can rewatch eps whenever I please [ . . . ]

You've been rewatching? You're more qualified for this forum then than I.

I don't concentrate on it as I did in the past, in order to participate in the analysis and discussion.

Because of this I tend to just skip over any long and insightful threads on the board.

There's a lot more blue than purple on the board I look at too.

What's more damaging, IMO, is that I now seem to be experiencing unreasonably negative and angry reactions to some posts that, in the past, I would have just ignored. The number of times I've deleted vicious flaming messages just before approving them for the final time is frightening, to me anyway.

At least you've had the sense not to approve them. My insinuation that aquaman was perhaps not being totally in a spirit of honesty with us about why there were whole long threads in which the only participants originated from his computer brought this board a whole lot more trouble than it staved off. Did I go through a patch earlier this month when I was ready to flame just about everyone? I went through that patch last night ("Storyteller" left me in little agreement with or mood for Rob). And I'm still wishing Sara and aliera would get off my back with the damn poetry thing. (The irony here is that I probably know more Whitman and Dickenson than Rah does. I, after all, was required to take American Literature in High School.)

So, I'm pretty much right there with you, dub. It has to be the brain surgery. And, if I don't have any recollection of actually having brain surgery, maybe that just proves that my short-term memory loss is worse than yours.

Seriously (and I hope you did not but, knowing you, doubt you did take offense at the lack of seriousness above), I hope you will know that you are in our hearts even if you are not on our screens. The reminder this past week of how much I miss redcat and mundus just makes the news of your reduced presence that much more affecting. You may be feeling the need to take a break, but I cannot share that feeling. (*sniff!*) However, should you really feel inclined to retire, you can be accomodated.

[> [> I do love that link -- ponygirl, 12:28:22 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> I see we've gone from "Threats to leave" to "Threats to lurk....";) -- mundus, 12:47:56 02/26/03 Wed

Thinkin' of you, 'dub.

-mm
[> [> [> Wouldn't that be a great threat? -- d'Herblay, 16:18:54 02/26/03 Wed

"You people have done me such wrong that I'm just going to read everything you write but not subject you to my own witterlings."

Strikes fear into my heart. Maybe vhD should have used it.
[> [> Re: Now that Rah has revealed my hypochondria . . . -- dub, 13:01:44 02/26/03 Wed

You, sir, are a nutcase. Thanks for making me laugh, and reminding me not to take this all so seriously. On the upside, I'm only going to be working two days a week for the foreseeable future so I may be able to write or do something else useful with all my free time. It won't be shuffleboard though--that would require actually leaving the computer. Maybe mundus and I can get up a game of on-line Backgammon or Go? (I suck at Go, but I love it.) Don't know how he'd manage, with everything else he has to do.

And, as an example of how out of it I am, when did Rah reveal your hypochondria? I missed that!

;o)
[> [> [> Maybe Battleship? That's about my speed.*g* -- mm, 13:50:12 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> C-7 -- d'Herblay, 17:31:21 02/26/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Now that Rah has revealed my hypochondria . . . -- aliera, 14:41:31 02/26/03 Wed

...scope out the Meet the Posters thread in the Archive there's a few other goodies in Rah's post also. It's down towards the bottom.

As for you, Chevalier...Ignoring the bait. :-)
[> [> [> Now that Rah has revealed my hypochondria . . .d'H it could have been waaaaaaay worse... -- Rufus, 16:00:41 02/26/03 Wed

At least Rah only exposed something in print...she could have managed to load a cute pic of you when you were a wee one so we could do a collective awwwwwww over it.
[> [> [> [> Rah has NEVER seen a baby picture of me -- d'Herblay, 17:36:30 02/26/03 Wed

In fact, I don't think I've seen a baby picture of me in the last twenty years. It is possible that I just didn't show up on film until I was twelve (not that those pictures are any great shakes). Something about soullessness, according to local superstitions.
[> [> Re: Now that Rah has revealed my hypochondria . . . -- Rob, 21:15:57 02/26/03 Wed

""Storyteller" left me in little agreement with or mood for Rob"

Yowch! LOL! Don't forget if my endless optimism ever drives you up a wall to go back to the archives and play my "Him" review over and over, endlessly in your head. It may be the last chance you get to see me unhappy with an ep. ;o)

Rob
[> [> [> LOL! I've also got your first impression of "Hell's Bells" to fall back on! -- d'Herblay, 21:43:04 02/26/03 Wed

[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Gyrus, 12:10:34 02/26/03 Wed

I'm not an MD, but some of my research involves the brain (hence my nickname -- Gyrus). So I thought I would mention this, even though your docs have probably said it to you already: Brain cells may grow slowly, but they do grow. So don't rule out the possibility of recovery, even if it might take a long time.

This website has some good information on the frontal lobe and what happen whens it's damaged (though it sounds like you already have a good handle on what your symptoms are):

www.neuroskills.com/tbi/bfrontal.shtml

If there is any information I can dredge up that might be helpful to you, feel free to email me.
[> [> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- dub, 13:12:18 02/26/03 Wed

Thanks, Gyrus. I'll e-mail you if I have a question, and I'll check out the url today.

What I'm having trouble dealing with right now is how long it took me to realize that there were any effects at all. I've been going along acting as if nothing had ever happened, and it's been almost a year since the aneurysm and surgery. Lately I've been feeling vaguely depressed and generally unhappy, and suddenly all the vague, subtle changes seemed to crystallize and I realized they were all aspects of the same phenomenon.

It's reassuring to hear that there's hope for improvement in the future. I just have to readjust my whole mindset from "no damage at all" to "definitely some damage, but it can get better."

dub ;o)
[> [> [> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Arethusa, 13:48:34 02/26/03 Wed

When I get depressed and unhappy I have problems concentrating and remembering too. And I can only blame myself! Take care, and be good to yourself. Indulge and pamper. I'm sending you my very best wishes, and mental images of cats and chocolate. Or chocolate cats-I'm a little fuzzy on the mental abilities.
[> [> [> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Rufus, 16:21:07 02/26/03 Wed

It's reassuring to hear that there's hope for improvement in the future. I just have to readjust my whole mindset from "no damage at all" to "definitely some damage, but it can get better."

What you are experiencing is normal...I know what it was like when I first got sick..thought I was going to get better and get back to work full time, and do the sports I used to enjoy.....and my brain, I wanted my brain back. It's hard to realize that the standard we have always held ourselves to, how we see ourselves, can change so much....and on top of that be invisible to everyone around you. I went from being athletic, moving around all the time, and a memory that got me dubbed "IBM" for my memory....to someone I didn't like too much cause I couldn't accept that I had changed....not only had I changed, I felt that I was different because I was weak-willed. My short term memory is what is most changed...I find myself having to ask over and over again the same questions (which my husband has to patiently re-answer) forget names, faces, and get lost. There are whole blocks of my life I no longer remember and time seemed to slip away. I changed. I'm not going to say you will always be happy with who you are now, there will be frustrating times ahead. If I had to tell you the best thing that I got out of getting sick twenty years ago is that I can now look back at who I was and be happy for what I did do while I could.

You are one of the strongest persons I know, and brain surgery didn't change that. We are our own worst critics and though you may be frustrated and angry at what you can't do we are all just happy to have you here with us. We love strong Dub and we love forgetful Dub. I'd say more but then I'd be pulling out a yellow crayon.....and I have to save that speech in case you go all dark and decide to destroy the world....;)
[> [> [> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Gyrus, 23:12:21 02/26/03 Wed

From what I've read, fontal lobe dysfunction is noted for being difficult to detect by patients and clinicians alike. I can relate. I have been forgetful, disorganized, a habitual procrastinator, and barely able to do one thing for more than 5 minutes for my entire life, but I didn't seriously consider the possibility that I might have attention deficit disorder (which also seems to have its origins in the frontal cortex) until I was 30. And I'm a psychologist! It was only thanks to my wife, a clinical social worker who was counseling some ADD kids at the time, that I started to realize what was going on and went to a neurologist to get tested. Once I was diagnosed and started taking Ritalin, life got a whole lot better as I realized that I was not as lazy or incompetent as I had always believed.

Didn't mean to turn this into my life story. Hard as it was for me, it must be that much harder for you, having an even wider range of problems (ADD doesn't come with language or motor dysfunction) that you never had before the injury. It sounds upsetting and frustrating at best, frightening at worst.

Anyway, I wish you the best in your recovery.
[> Re: Oh dub -- aliera, 12:16:37 02/26/03 Wed

Sorry I'm so late to chime in...I've been offline for a few hours with Ben getting his braces on.

My heart goes out to you it really does. I wish so much that regardless of the memory and posting challenges you would still hang out here. We have to be big enough to hold you in whatever form. You're still dub. But that is maybe too selfish of me. I'm knowing that you have to do whats best for yourself for healing and happiness. I will just fervently pray for these for you. Goddessbless, dub.
[> Thank you all, so much -- dub ;o), 12:44:18 02/26/03 Wed

Your kindness, understanding, and compassion means more to me than I could ever say. I think I feel all those caring vibes already!

I knew that any replies would be kinda hard for me to read, so I stayed away for a few hours. I've gone through almost a whole box of Kleenex now. It would have been more, probably, but d'Herblay had me howling with laughter rather than sobbing with gratitude for a while (thanks to you, too, my friend!).

I'll be here every day, whether I post or not. I just can't get along without you guys now!

;o)
[> [> Re: Thank you all, so much -- DEN, 16:03:31 02/26/03 Wed

Stay with us, please, even as a lurker. I have often benefited from your postings, and from the heart and the spirit inspiring them. thank you.
[> All my best wishes -- KdS, 13:08:13 02/26/03 Wed

Very sorry to hear this. All the best, and I would really look into the possibility that this might be psychological before you decide it's physiological. A crisis like that must have been some kind of shock to the system.
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Darby, 13:09:31 02/26/03 Wed

Sorry to hear about your problems. Can I pry a bit?

Has this been progressive since your aneurysm? It sounds like it's kind of recent, or has progressed rapidly recently. If so, that could be significant. Not necessarily bad, possibly good, significant.

Have you noticed it getting better or worse in relation to other things? Lack of sleep, stress, and whatnot? Could it be extreme swings of what would have been minor swings before?

I'm just thinking in terms of what could be done to minimize this. And I absolutely understand if you'd rather not get into it.
[> [> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- dub, 13:27:37 02/26/03 Wed

It's kinda weird, Darb. I was concentrating very much on the physical aspects of getting better, which mainly had to do with being tired most of the time, and having little strength and stamina. My expectation after the surgery and all was that I would slowly regain strength and energy, and that did happen, up to a point. I got over the dizzyness and complete lack of energy, and having to nap twice a day, and it got easier to go for walks and stuff like that, and then I just hit a plateau. My physical strength stopped improving. I don't have to nap every day anymore, but I'm pretty wasted by late afternoon. It got frustrating.

When I hit the physical plateau, that was when I started to notice the mental or emotional effects. I can't remember the plot of any novel I've read since the aneurysm. That is unheard of in my experience. I read constantly, and the last year is just a big, white blur in my mind, much like the episodes of Buffy and Angel have become. Just the other day I told David to put on a suitcase if he was feeling chilled. I meant housecoat (bathrobe? I can't remember if you say "housecoat" in the US), but I swear in my mind at that moment it meant the same thing. I can hang up the phone at work, turn back to my computer and have forgotten entirely what it was I was just asked to do.

In answer to your question, I'm not sure whether this stuff has increased recently, or if I've just become aware of it recently. I do go for a CT angiogram on March 10, so if there are any neurological changes that might show them.

In any case, thanks for the interest, and I don't mind talking about it at all, as you can see...

;o)
[> [> [> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Darby, 13:44:35 02/26/03 Wed

There can be incredibly specific deficiencies from brain injuries - disconnects from really subtle types of processing. It might be interesting to try to decide if the books and shows are just complete blurs or whether you remember select aspects of them. Memory-processing losses. though, from what I've read, tend to be broader than other cognitive losses.

And even if the details don't stick, you might be interested in almost any of Oliver Sach's books on such things, such as The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. Sara loves his books - she reads them and tells me the stories.

For these kinds of problems, the CT probably won't show that much, but your doctor should have some information for you if you describe the symptoms.
[> [> [> housecoats are for housewives in the us... -- anom, 23:27:13 02/26/03 Wed

...& have a kind of scruffy, hair-in-curlers/fuzzy-slippers association.

"I can hang up the phone at work, turn back to my computer and have forgotten entirely what it was I was just asked to do."

I thought that was normal! Well, you can always compensate by writing down what it was...if you can remember to do that....

To get more serious, I'm sorry to hear things aren't as good as they'd seemed. Don't feel so bad about not realizing it for so long; that's just being human.

And give yourself some credit for holding back from sending those flaming posts! For real...the fact that you realize this is significant &, I think, hopeful. It's more of a base to build on for getting better, if it's even a physiological effect of the aneurysm & not a psychological reaction to it. In any case, there's a lot more that can be done these days than there used to be.

So do what you need to...you've got some hard work ahead of you, but you have loads of support & prayers & positive energy coming to you from here...which is all over! Actually, about specifically here...I just realized that sitting at my computer, I'm facing more or less in your direction! So lemme send some of those things that way! Um...would it also help if I sent more chocolate? You like the dark kind, right?
[> We gonna miss you, dubdub ! -- Etrangere, 13:48:40 02/26/03 Wed

Love and wishes of good recovery.

Like D'H I admit I don't pay as much attention to Buffy episodes or thise forum's thread as I used to !
[> A lurking dub is better by far than a lacking dub -- Haecceity, 15:05:32 02/26/03 Wed

Though I will miss your wonderful responses! Just know that every time anyone anywhere at all types the word Clem they'll be thinking of you;)

Sending all my best wishes for a lifting of the fog and a banishment on any lingering anhedonia!

---Haecceity
Wondering if these wishes might create a Wishverse of "All dub All the Time" posting. Thinking that that wouldn't be a bad thing at all, given how much I like your writing.
[> [> Agreed. -- AurraSing, 16:01:59 02/26/03 Wed

Above all,I am sure we want you to be happier-if that means missing your presence on the board but knowing you are still out there,it's a price we will just have to pay.
[> [> Couldn't've said it better myself. Dub-be-with-us! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 19:29:11 02/26/03 Wed

[> Wishing you lots and lots of feeling better! -- Sara, 15:08:52 02/26/03 Wed

I'll be looking forward to when you do join in, but it will be nice just knowing that you're out there visiting with us. What you're going through happens to be among my biggest fears, and I just want you to know that what we're seeing is that you're handling it with an extradoinary amount of grace. It is both hopeful and inspiring. Thank you.
[> Lurker or not, you're not going anywhere. You will be here with us and we are with you. OK? -- cjl, 15:09:06 02/26/03 Wed

[> Beautiful Wiseone...... We need you here. My ~healing~ energy to you constantly. You are loved. -- Briar Rose (sending light), 15:14:13 02/26/03 Wed

[> Very on-topic, dub...for isn't this board and its denizens a topic unto itself? -- Random, 15:22:19 02/26/03 Wed

I'm sorry to hear this...I so much liked your presence here. And I'm very very sorry to hear about your difficulties post-brain surgery...I (and this is one of the rare times I'll reveal something truly personal) recently lost a dear friend to brain cancer -- completely inoperable. She died in the space of weeks after diagnosis, at the age of thirty-one. I couldn't imagine her suffering, and I can't imagine what you're going through. But I truly hope you get better again and would beg -- yes, beg! -- you to de-lurk from time to time and say 'Hi' to all of us.
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- s'kat, 15:43:44 02/26/03 Wed

So sorry to hear about this dub. I remember when you went into surgery last year and I know how hard you've worked.

As for responding negatively to things at times? If it helps? I have had similar reactions at times and have had to delete angry responses. So I can identify with this feeling.

I hope things get better soon. I've enjoyed getting to know you through the board. And will miss you.

All my best.

SK
[> I've valued your thoughts -- luna, 16:14:25 02/26/03 Wed

You've had so many interesting ideas and responses. Total concentration may be overrated, but I know experiencing what you are must be difficult. However, there's room for lots of kinds of communication. I too sometimes find it hard to read through all the posts, even the brilliant ones, and some times say something someone else has said, or something irrelevant. We can all live with this, I think. I would be delighted anytime you choose to say whatever's on your mind--at least we'd still be in touch with you.
[> I'm also so sorry to hear this. If it's not presumptuous... -- Ixchel, 16:38:43 02/26/03 Wed

(I never know what is or isn't with personal matters on a board), I know I've read about the brain being able to overcome certain injuries by "rerouting" information. You've probably discussed this with your doctor, but I thought I'd mention it as it seems hopeful.

My sympathies to you in what must be a very frustrating and disheartening time for you.

(The above meant sincerely, though it sounds trite.)
Ixchel
[> Comforting purrs and headrubs from Clem's Kitten #6 -- Dichotomy, 16:41:44 02/26/03 Wed

I hope your recovery is swift--we're all thinking of you!
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- LonesomeSundown, 17:29:27 02/26/03 Wed

I am mostly a lurker here, on and off for almost a year and only post very infrequently. You wouldn't "know" me, but from your posts I feel like I "know" you. When threads are long, I usually skip a lot of the posts (what can I say? I'm an impatient-ador. Sorry!) and only read ones by a subset of people. You have been and always will be in my subset. Wish you all the best.
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Caroline, 17:37:38 02/26/03 Wed

dub, all those things happen to me and I don't even have the excuse of having had brain surgery!

Thoughts, prayers and positive vibes are now being directed over to Canada....
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Buffyboy, 17:38:42 02/26/03 Wed

Sorry to hear of your least travails.
I always enjoy reading your comments so do keep posting when you're able to.
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- LittleBit, 17:50:33 02/26/03 Wed

dubdub, I am very sorry to hear this. I first came to the board in the midst of all the get-well postings after you were tracked down. When you returned I was glad to hear you were doing so well.

Regarding the types of problems you are talking about having --- I find them to be quite in line with high-level brain damage. For 15 years I worked as an Occupational Therapist, in places like the Maryland Shock Trauma system and The Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago. There are quite a number of therapeutic approaches that can be used to help stimulate your thinking processes and memory abilities, as well as techniques to help compensate for the short term memory losses in the meantime. Here in the states this treatment would be given by either a Speech Pathologist or an Occupational Therapist, or both.

High level cognitive rehabilitation was one of my specialty areas (hand rehab was the other, go figure, lol), and I'm sure the available information has expanded since I left the profession a while back. If any of these avenues are available, I would suggest finding out if your doctors would send you to have a cognitive assessment to determine what things may be the most helpful.

I'm including my e-mail so please feel free to use me as either a resource or even a sounding board whenever you like.

Bit
[> Wishing you the best. -- Deeva, 19:00:57 02/26/03 Wed

As often with major things such as this it can be temporary. Here's hoping that this is one of those instances. ;o)
[> Re: O/T: Slipping into Lurker Mode -- Celebaelin, 09:32:15 02/27/03 Thu

I read your news with much sorrow, I hope the messages in this thread encourage you to participate as fully as you feel happy and confident to for as long as the board lasts.

C
[> This is very sad. I hope that improvement is both possible and quick. -- Sophist, 10:19:24 02/27/03 Thu

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