February 2003 posts
Hyperion and hyperbole (Angel Odyssey 2.1-2.3)
-- Tchaikovsky, 06:29:26 02/19/03 Wed
Actually, hopefully no hyperbole ensues. But I was thinking after
'Are You Now or Have You Ever Been?', (up there with 'Never Kill
a Boy on the First Date' as most justifiably acronymable episode
title), about the beginnings of Seasons.
Buffy:
Season One: Welcome to the Hellmouth/ The Harvest
It's fine, but Joss admits he doesn't know much about directing
at this point. There's a lot of ground to cover and establishing
to do.
Season Two: When She Was Bad/ Some Assembly Required
Moderate followed by mediocre. The climax of this season is my
favourite, but it sure had a slow start.
Season Three: Anne/Dead Man's Party
Anne was a story that needed telling, but the separation between
the largely irrelevant Scooby Gang story and the oddly sagging
Buffy in LA story left it a little undercooked. I ought to say
a word for Dead Man's Party, which has been on some people's Bottom
10 list, but in my opinion is classic Marti Noxon angst.
Season Four: The Freshman/Living Conditions
I love 'The Freshman', largely because it relates well to my life.
'Living Conditions' is perfectly fine but a little tedious.
Season Five: Buffy vs Dracula/Real Me
The first amusing but apart from Dracula's repetition of Tara's
line, monumentally pointless. The second interesting but lacking
a touch plotwise.
Season Six: Bargaining
Don't like second half of Bargaining; depressing, slow and unfunny.
Angel: Season One: City of.../Lonely Hearts
City of is a good premiere. Lonely Hearts had a few good moments,
but suffered again from Furyitis.
And so we come to Judgement and AYNOHYEB, and I think to myself:
truthfully, setting aside thoughts that Buffy is pretty much always
superior, has there been a better Mutant Enemy first two in a
Season? And, a tad reluctantly, I came to my conclusion.
No.
I read Rob's 'Get it Done' review, and I'd like to be able to
convey about the same level of excitement with these two, but
don't have great faith in my ability. But then, we may be brothers,
so perhaps it's in the genes. Here goes...
2.1 'Judgement'
Part of the reason this is one of my favourite season-openers
is that, unlike virtually every season of Buffy, the groundwork
for the premiere was done at the end of the previous Season. Because
AI's 'Shanshu' episode was, while scary, not apocalyptic, there
was no season arc winding up to breaking point. So at the end
of Season One, with the (distinctly average) 'War Zone' and 'Blind
Date', we are introduced properly to Gunn, Lindsay and Lilah.
And then we are left with a Greenwaltian cliffhanger, (because
Joss 'doesn't do cliffhangers'), of Darla in her cage.
As a result of this, seeing Gunn, Lindsay and Darla, having the
introduction of Lorne, the street bum of Merle, AND the major
plot of the episode isn't overload. And that's a pretty mean feat.
Because this episode is packed to the rafters with moments where
you think 'That's an interesting development!', and also with
moments where you think: 'Only Greenwalt could have written something
that quirky'. Let me expand a little.
Summer hiatus. In Buffy, after the very first episode, we always
see a scene of what we expect first. Willow and Xander being bored
in Season Two, slayage sans Buffy in Season Three, Slayage and
course choosing in Season Four, nocturnal slayage in Season Five,
Willow-orchestrated slayage in Season Six, Buffy as Mother Slayage
in Season Seven. Pretty much all of them subvert the simple demon-killing
of the show in one way or another, but also, all of them re-inforce
the primary tenet. Now, if you will cf (how's that for an unexpected
verb?!) the beginning of 'Judgement':
A disconcerting green-skinned red-eyed demon, who we have never
seen before sings 'I Will Survive'. And there I am, just sitting
ready for a big serious Angel redemption arc, and I crack up like
Faith when the Mayor says those two words: 'Miniature Golf'. What
on earth is going on? It must be a new season of Angel!
Obviously once we're through that, it reverts to a superb and
familiar formula of balancing humour with pathos. There are a
couple of trademark parallels. Angel of course IS the monster
whom he slays in trying to protect the pregnant woman. That is
why he is so torn up about it. He realises that he has been judgemental
of himself. As Wesley expresses, how can you expect a demon to
suddenly change its modus operandi, and become a guardian? And
then he, like Angel and the viewer, realises that is exactly what
Angel is trying to do.
But, like one of those odd mirages in a desert, or a Magic Eye
picture, he is a significantly further away from his goal than
he had once expected. The very fact that there is light at all,
that obscure hope that he could become human, made the tunnel
seem to be nearing its end. In reality, he has only just entered
it.
Angel is made to learn a lot in this episode. His periodic meeting
of vast numbers of different people in each case shows him some
aspect of character that he wishes he had but doesn't. Gunn is
the warrior he'd like to be, fighting to save his own, fighting
as human in order to protect humans. Cordelia represents the empathetic
side of humanity that Angel has problems finding in himself: Cordelia
says that she will 'always be there for him'. (How glad I am that
I didn't have to encounter mindless C/A 'shippers taking this
as romantic when it is clearly platonic. I love this board). Anyway,
Cordelia can say what Angel believes he cannot. He believes that
as a broody vampire, he is deficient in empathy. He's not he just
sets that upo for himself. Wesley represents how he believes he
can never be clear-headed and logical, because of his need for
blood. And of course, the demon itself represents all that Angel
is ambiguous about in himself. Can he be a 'champion'? Is his
redemption just about the crazy ancient law that his charge so
despises? Or is it about something more human?
By the (apparent) end of the episode, he has realised something
important. It's about saving who you can, one at a time, because
it's the right thing to do. That's what Cordelia and Wesley have
realised, even if Cordelia was somewhat reined in by the visions,
and Wesley by his ex-Watcherness. I think it's one of those mulitple
epiphany things. Angel learns it here, but he's going to have
to re-learn it.
And Angel singing 'Mandy'? Wonderful. And admitting he likes it
to Lorne? Priceless. The whole 'Caritas' idea is so wonderful,
and I'm glad to hear that Lorne survives and becomes more important.
I'm a sucker for good singers.
So that's the end of the review. Or is it? Well, actually no.
Because, goodness, I was absolutely jaw-dropped again by the appearance
of Faith, [probably the only person who will be this year ;)].
Eliza Dushku definitely wasn't in the opening credits. She just
suddenly pops up. And I have to say that Angel and Faith's relationship
is one of my favourite on either show, (with Buffy-Dawn, Buffy-Giles,
Faith-The Mayor). They have such a deep understanding of each
other. And the little scene clarifies and deepens Angel's journey
so well. There's no great prize at the end of Faith's jail sentence.
Just living. The hardest thing in this life. And this is what
Angel needs to understand. The strangely ambivalent yet heartening
'We might', about redemption at the end of the show. This appearance
is not a gimmick, but a wonderful ending to an excellent opener.
2.2 'Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?'
My heart expands, 'tis grown a bulge in't
Could I enjoy Tim Minear's episodes any more? I think not. Every
single episode he's written so far has been a blinder for me (that's
'Sense and Sensitivity', 'Heroes', 'Somnambulist', 'The Prodigal',
'Sanctuary'). And this one as well. Many intelligent themes, several
good jokes, and extremely well plotted. Let me go through a few
of my especial likes in this episode.
There were several reference, I felt. There are probably a lot
more which I missed, and even these three are, (certainly in one
case), more my own than a deliberate homage by Minear. But I was
reminded of a few things.
Firstly, I was reminded of the Season Three episode 'Gingerbread'.
In this episode, (which I believe is an really under-rated gem),
we see how a little bit of evil playfulness can harness untold
depths of paranoia and prejudice in perfectly normal people. Joyce,
an apparently average Mother, ends up heading a mob of confused
parents scared of the Otherness of witchcraft. Of course the real
evil is in trying to break people down, and is developed by people's
fears of things they don't understand. In the Angel episode, this
same idea is played out. The infection of the hotel means that
everyone's worst fears are suggested to them, to the point where,
by acts of small deceit, they end up apparently killing an apparently
innocent apparent man, (bonus pay for the word 'apparent' in that
sentence).
Secondly, I was reminded of 'Lord of the Flies' where the thin
veneer of civilisation is slowly nibbled away by the wildness
of the surroundings and the scariness of the night and the lack
of grown-ups. Here of course, there actually is no corporeal or
intrinsic evil in the island at all, it's just the psychological
insecurities of the boys. In the America of the 1950's, the same
could be said, and hence the hotel becomes an apt metaphor for
deeply paranoid and divisive times in America. Where Minear shows
black people being turned away from the Hotel, and the sly reference
to the McCarthy-ised writer with his disgraced actor friend, he
both gives clever depth to the portrayal of 1950's America and
shows that the hotel's haunting is merely a metaphor to the insecurity
of living alone.
Thirdly, I was reminded of Stephen Poliakoff's 'Shooting the Past',
a beautiful piece of drama by one of Britain's leading television
dramatists. In it, Timothy Spall's character and his helper have
to convince the man sent to close a photography collection down
that there is a valid reason for the photos remaining together.
They do so by piecing together the story of a young Jewish girl
who feld the Holocaust, all contained in the extensive pictures
they have. The story is exceptionally beguiling, and it is no
simple happy ending that the photo collection is saved to tell
of the 20th century, full of tragedy and pain and a little joy.
But Cordelia and Wesley's piecings had that same effect- a tricksy
narrative device to break the story slowly, and a testament to
research and the power of vision.
Other points about this episode:
We get to see that the monsters aren't just living in LA, they're
part of ordinary people. Part of the woman who dtole the money,
part of the hotel staff, part of Angel. And this is the whole
point of Angel picking the Hyperion as his new base- he IS the
reborn formerly evil Hotel. Once he had a streak of unfettered
hatred. Then he went through a phase which he perhaps hates even
more, a phase of passivity and torment, where he made morally
reprehensible decisions because he couldn't be bothered to fight,
like leaving the Hyperion's residents to waste away. Now he feels
purged, and wants to purge the Hotel as well.
There is a lack of the usual smash montage cuts in the entrance
to the flashback scenes. This is because Minear and Semel want
to show the immediacy of the experience of 1952 to the Angel of
today, and was a smart, subtle move.
Genius episode. Makes me veer wildly towards Masq in claiming
that Angel is becoming a most compelling character to me. As compelling
as Buffy, Dawn and Giles to me personally, (but this is just my
irrelevant opinion). Angel episodes at there best are as powerful
as anything. Think 'Amends', 'Sanctuary', and this new one. Brilliant.
2.3 'First Impressions'
Now I wouldn't want ot throw away this ebullience too lighly,
and I don't have anything angry to say about 'First Impressions',
but it was just a perfectly average episode after two top-drawer
ones.
Just a couple of notes. Angel's sequence at the beginning appears
initially to be real, and then we see Darla, and we're still wondering,
and then they dance, and then it becomes clear it was a dream
beforehe wakes up. Completely unlike the end of 'Out of My Mind'
for Spike at about the same time, where in the dream sequence
we believe he is kissing Buffy all the way. Don't know whether
this is just poor writing by debutant Shawn Ryan, or whether it
has a deeper meaning.
Gunn is developed nicely here. I though J August Richards did
a good job, although I don't have any 'involuntary empathy' for
him. He isn't very similar to me, so for the moment I'm not that
viscerally interested. Only on a passing cerebral level. The Gunn-Cordelia
axis was amusing and somewhat powerful. It showed how Cordelia
is beginning to harness her immense willpower and put it to good
use.
I'm a little puzzled by the Denzel speech. OK, it was a bit funny,
and led onto the funnier speech between our main Three, but isn't
it a little careless to go introducing a black chracter and then
immediately suggest he has a chip on his shoulder about the white
majority? I realise that the Denzel incident was controversial,
(and they made up by giving him the Oscar last year for a much
inferior effort), but I just wonder whether they oculdn't have
avoided a cliched writing of the first black regular in the Buffyverse.
Maybe that's just me. No offence intended to anyone.
Darla- well that's the most intriguing part for me. I had yet
another 'Wow' moment when it turned out she was really there with
Angel, and not just in his dreams. Ah, the joys of being unspoiled.
OK, that's it for now. Probably not worth repeating how much I
loved the first two, but I really did. Gives 'Angel' the springboard
for a great Season.
TCH- thanking yabyumpan as always
[> Re: Hyperion and hyperbole
(Angel Odyssey 2.1-2.3) -- Rahael, 06:49:40 02/19/03 Wed
I couldn't agree with you more!!
The moment that Lorne starts singing is one of those little moments
for me too. And I love Are You Now. It's one of my favourite stand
alone eps. Just incredible how Angel melts from 1950s to present,
and how striking all the imagery is. The shot of the demon standing
over his shoulder. The moment when Angel's walking through the
decaying corridors of the Hyperion, is one rife with resonances
- about him as a person, about memory and regret. The person held
prisoner by paranoia all these years, in the attic, that's a commentary
on Angel too, and the eventual reclamation of it.
If you look in the archives, I posted the transcript of the Tim
Minear commentary on this ep - you might find it of interest.
Is the pregnant woman both a metaphor for Angel's attempt to start
a new life, and a foreshadowing of Darla? I'm going to be rewatching
these eps tonight, and maybe I'll have more comments later.
I also agree with you about Dead Man's Party. I thought it rang
viscerally true.
[> [> Thanks for this
-- Tchaikovsky, 10:09:00 02/19/03 Wed
Interesting transcript, belated thanks for writing it all out,
(it takes hours, but I think I will consider it my moral duty
to do OMWF when it comes out, if you don't first!).
Nice to see that a lot of what Minear was saying chimes in with
my thoughts, and also that the fact I thought that it was an exceptionally
well directed episode came from the (obviosuly thoughtful) writer
as well as the director David Semel.
TCH
[> Defending this thread
against the voynok demon -- Masq, 09:19:41 02/19/03 Wed
FYI to non North Americans and fellow North Americans:
Generally speaking, if you have a nice juicy post you've been
working on that isn't related to the episodes showing this week
in North America, it's best not to post in on Wednesday or Thursday
morning. It is much more likely to be ignored and then quickly
archived by the evil voynok demon.
It says nothing about the merits of your work, it's just one of
the little realities of the board. ; )
[> [> Re: Defending this
thread against the voynok demon -- Rob, 09:56:44 02/19/03
Wed
Yes, that's why I learned to time my annotation threads for Monday
the latest or Thursday night the earliest, especially on weeks
where BtVS and AtS are both airing.
Rob
[> [> Couple of points
-- Tchaikovsky, 10:15:30 02/19/03 Wed
Main one is thanks for resurrecting this thread- it was odd to
see it go into the archives after two hours!
I claim mitigating circumstances on this particular post because:
1) Originally I was going to post it on Monday evening, but I
got tied up in the poetry thread and then Darby's wonderful thread,
along with the various ruminations with Aquaman.
2) Usually it's alright to post on a morning after with something
specifically non-episode related, I've found. Some of the new
episode threads tend to get eaten, but a lot of Europeans and
pre-empted North Americans are eager to stay away from the spoilers
and read something else.
3) In this case, it was the combination of the (justly) lengthy
Darby thread with Shadowkat and Rob's new threads which were causing
a pile-up. No new threads at all were staying up. This is extremely
unusual.
Just putting a few notes in from my experience. Thanks again Masq
TCH
[> Yay! The journey continues!
-- Rob, 10:15:15 02/19/03 Wed
I'm so glad Masq saved this from the archives. I would have completely
missed it! And I completely agree with your reviews of all three
episodes. I know exactly what you mean about the first few moments
of the second season. Instantly, our expectations are defied and
not only that, but we get a great episode. Isn't it strange how
the second season instantly feels like a new, revitalized show?
In many ways, "To Shanshu in LA" was really the season
premiere for the second season rather than the finale of the first.
And what a great understated cameo by Faith at the end of the
episode. It was not only a surprise, but as you said, not a stunt.
It really fit into the theme of the episode and was nice to have
a brief update on where Faith is as a person right now. Also,
I'm glad you're digging Darla. There's plenty more great stuff
where that came from.
" read Rob's 'Get it Done' review, and I'd like to be
able to convey about the same level of excitement with these two,
but don't have great faith in my ability. But then, we may be
brothers, so perhaps it's in the genes. Here goes...
LOL. You definitely conveyed the level of excitement you have
for the eps. You're a really great writer. In fact, they made
me remember why I was so ecstatic about the eps a few months ago
when I first saw them. Can't wait till the odyssey continues!
Rob
[> Thanks Masq :o) and on
with the show..... -- yabyumpan, 12:08:01 02/19/03 Wed
Glad you're loving the start of S2. It's actually my favorite
season. It also seems to be the season on which people are divided
the most. Not wanting to say too much about what's comming up,
but I think how you view it depends on whether you want to watch
the show because the Hero is, well, 'Heroic' and has a 'mission'
or if you watch it to follow the journey of IMO, one of the most
complex, facinating, imperfect, ambiguous and enigmatic characters
in Whendonverse. For me it's the latter, it's about the character
and his journey, where ever it takes him.
Pretty much agree with you reviews of the eps. AYKOHYEB is also
TM's favorite episode.
For me, the last scene between Angel and Darla is really important
in showing his aloneness and the weight he feels he carries. It
makes the rest of the season and Angel's responses easier to understand
IMO. I'll probably write more about this when you're further along
in the season. Don't want to spoil you ;o)
[> [> Thoughts on AtS
Season 2 (spoilery for all seasons--TCH don't read) -- Masq,
12:30:08 02/19/03 Wed
yab-
This was going to be a post on how Season 2 isn't my favorite
season even though I like watching Angel's journey just like you
and certainly don't need him to be heroic all the time.
But then I realized when it comes to "Angel" the series,
I'm veering a little towards the "Rob". There are some
episodes I don't really care for, but generally speaking, I love
all the Seasons close to equally. They are each unique and reinvent
the show while developing Angel's journey further from where it
was before.
It seems the "Noir Angel" phase of Season 2 was necessary
in order for Angel to truly understand his role as champion of
the PTB's. It's not about making some grand gesture that will
win him his humanity. He tries to make it that by going after
the senior partners in "Reprise". It's not that simple,
though. And when he doesn't get down into hell to kill them, he's
so disillusioned he tries to lose his soul in Darla.
The irony of that moment is that from their union a child is created
who IS human (at least I believe Connor's supposed to be human)
and whose role, among other things, is to bring Angel closer to
the humanity he's supposed to be helping. Angel has his epiphany
in "Epiphany" that the smallest act of kindness is what
it's all about, not grand gestures. That brings him back to the
what the PTB's really want him for--that brings him back to being
a champion. Then, when Connor is born, Angel finally has a real,
concrete connection to humanity. He has a biological son who is
human.
So he can remain a vampire, a supernatural champion, and be connected
to the humanity he's trying to save through Connor and through
his friends.
The events and epiphanies of Season 2 don't mean that Angel doesn't
have a destiny, it just means he has to live that destiny without
consciously reflecting on it. He can't deliberately set out to
fulfill his destiny. He has to live his life and do his duty as
a champion and face what is to come day to day.
[> [> [> Re: Thoughts
on AtS Season 2 (spoilery for all seasons--TCH don't read)
-- yabyumpan, 13:27:06 02/19/03 Wed
It seems the "Noir Angel" phase of Season 2 was necessary
in order for Angel to truly understand his role as champion of
the PTB's. It's not about making some grand gesture that will
win him his humanity. He tries to make it that by going after
the senior partners in "Reprise". It's not that simple,
though. And when he doesn't get down into hell to kill them, he's
so disillusioned he tries to lose his soul in Darla.
I agree that's part of what S2 is about, for me it's also about
his sense of having to do it 'alone', of being 'alone', which
I believe is why Darla had such a huge influence on him and why
he needed to 'save' her.
From 'Darla'
Angel: "Look, she asked for my help. I can't turn my back."
Wesley: "No, you shouldn't. Not for one moment. You know
better than anyone what she was."
Angel: "What we were. And I also know what she's going through.
And unlike me, maybe she won't have to go through it alone."
Cordy: "You're not alone."
I think Cordy's both right and wrong with this. One of the many
lessons he had to learn in S2 is that he's not alone, he doesn't
have to be alone, friendships are important both in a personal
sense but also for his journey towards redemption. In a sense
though, he's always going to be alone. He's totally unique (ignoring
you know who). How ever hard any of them try, no one can really
understand what it's like to be around for 250 years, to have
done the things he's done and care, to have a foot in both human
and vampire worlds and not really belong in either. With Darla
he thought he'd found someone who could truely understand all
those things. Having people be sympathetic to your situation and
to want to understand is wonderful, but to find someone who is
truely in empathy with you, that's gold dust. That's why I think
that the final scene between Angel and Darla in 'First Impressions'
is so important in understanding what happens.
This was going to be a post on how Season 2 isn't my favorite
season even though I like watching Angel's journey just like you
and certainly don't need him to be heroic all the time.
It was probably an over-generalization but in my experience going
around the boards, including this one, that does seem to be true.
People seem to get very angry at him when he's not following 'the
mission' and being a 'hero' to the point where some people stopped
watching in S2 because they were so disgusted with him. Many people
want their Heros to be 'Heroic' and 'perfect' and you're just
not going to get that with Angel, and ain't that why we love him
;o)
quote from psyche
[> [> [> [> Re:
Thoughts on AtS Season 2 (spoilery for all seasons--TCH don't
read) -- Masq, 13:43:58 02/19/03 Wed
"Many people want their Heros to be 'Heroic' and 'perfect'
and you're just not going to get that with Angel, and ain't that
why we love him ;o)"
Do these same people watch "Buffy"? Granted, she never
"goes evil" and seems to do the right thing most of
the time, but she is often not particularly heroic, especially
in her personal life.
Maybe it is, as Slain commented after "Awakening" that
Buffy's hero role is more clearly defined because she is Chosen,
she's a Slayer. She knows what her duty is, and she has a clearer
idea what to do in most situations (even if her personal relationships
are sometimes very screwed up).
Angel is in a more precarious, absurd position. He was called
by the PTB's, but his "duty" isn't as clear. Often the
PTBs don't communicate with him at all, he has to guess what they
want. He tries to guess and sometimes he gets it right and sometimes
he fails. His world is so much more gray. Humans are evil, demons
are good, guesswork can go deadly wrong.
He wants his world and his destiny to be as clear as Buffy's,
but it isn't. AND he has a demon inside him pushing him towards
darkness in a much more tangible way than Buffy can claim.
If "Angel" fans want Angel to be stalwart like Buffy,
they need to send him back to Sunnydale as a human being with
a few super-powers (i.e., as Connor). Then Angel can be the Angel
they want.
And we'll watch the more interesting morally ambiguous Angel in
L.A.! : )
[> [> [> [> [>
TCH glad you're feeling the love, don't read this either
-- JM, 15:44:47 02/19/03 Wed
One of the reasons I find AtS so challenging is everything that
S2 developed. In S1, Angel is much more classical hero. His choices,
in the now, always work out. He is tortured and haunted, but it
just underlines the tremendous nobility of his here and now. I
never had a sense of dramatic sense that he would make the "wrong"
choice. And after "Sanctuary," "War Zone,"
and TSiLA, I never worried that Wes, Gunn, or Cordy would either.
They'd never be the Lindsey's and the Kates. (So sue me, foreshadowing
goes over my head. And did again in "Judgement" and
AYNoHYEB.)
S2 was the glorious refutation of that certainty. On AtS, no one,
no matter how good, noble, strong, brave, or wise has a monopoloy
on the truth. All of our heros have now made at least one horrifying
mistake, often while trying their hardest to do the right thing.
But they know too little, are all too flawed and human. And no
reset button, or even glorious sacrifice is available to erase/redeem
them. I just love this show.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> LOL. I'm sure it's a great thread! -- Tchaikovsky,
02:57:15 02/20/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Is this the first time somebody's been kicked out
of his own thread?!? ;o) -- Rob, 07:42:55 02/20/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Only this sub-thread. And it's of course
his free choice... -- Masq, 09:05:08 02/20/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> You can bring anything back to self-determinism,
can'tcha, Masq? ;o) -- Rob, 09:10:05 02/20/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> I just don't want TCH to feel
left out! (no Angel spoilers within) -- Masq, 09:48:42
02/20/03 Thu
He's doing us such a nice favor by getting us talking about all
the old eps!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> I know! -- Rob, 10:29:42
02/20/03 Thu
I can't wait till I get to do the Angel annotations! Btw, if I
keep to my schedule, I should get there by around late November/early
December. Then I can alternate eps. I was thinking of starting
right away with Angel now, but especially in the first season,
I think it would be easiest to do the crossover episodes annotations
in the order that they aired.
So more Angel nostalgia to look forward too in the hopefully not
too distant future!
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oof! Should be "to
look forward to". -- Rob, 10:31:10 02/20/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not if you take summer
off like last year! -- Masq, 11:03:56 02/20/03 Thu
Of course, you know your life schedule better than I do. I have
a tendency to take the summer off myself, but that's because I'm
doing analyses with concurrent eps.
I just hope there'll be a few concurrent eps next year!
crossing fingers, toes, eyes
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not if
you take summer off like last year! -- Rob, 12:09:32 02/20/03
Thu
Never gonna live down that summer off, am I? lol
Well, here's actually how I see it happening, I hope.
For March, April, and May, I'm going to be focusing on the Six
Feet Under site, b/c the new season will be on those months, meaning
I won't have as much time for Buffy. Plus, it will be a nice break
from it, so I don't just keep going until I'm sick of it.
It should take me, then, June and July to finish the second season.
And about August through early-to-mid November for the third season
(if I keep up a proper pace. I would even say late October's a
possibility, but I don't want to promise that this early), so
then I should be up to BtVS S4/AtS S1 by November or early December
the latest.
I've got my fingers crossed.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good
luck! Your site is a LOT of work -- Masq, 12:31:27 02/20/03
Thu
But much appreciated!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> awww TCH, we'll re-hash all the discussion again.
Now turn on that VCR and get watching ;o) -- yabyumpan, 09:27:48
02/20/03 Thu
[> Behind the scenes of...(Angel
Odyssey 2.4-2.5) -- Tchaikovsky, 14:51:37 02/20/03 Thu
I'm a little surprised that after being swallowed in two hours,
this thread has subsequently gone on to be one of the longest-lived
on the board, but as a result will write my next couple of reviews
here.
But first, and skip this if you prefer, a little background on
the reviewing experience for me.
In these days of electronic mail, I have found that my 5''x3''
envelopes are not going to any good use. In these illiberal days
when I'm only allowed to write in black or blue, I have found
little use for my pink highlighter pen. Until now. I meticulously
remove one envelope from my pile and take my pen. I am only allowed
one side of the envelope for one episode, (otherwise I'd bore
everyone even more). I am not allowed to refer to any reference
books while watching the episode. I am not allowed to rewind the
episode at any point. I may not rewatch the episode until I have
posted the review. I have restricted myself to reading one review
only, that being the cityofangel one. This is because I usually
disagree with the reviewer, and the review is often about things
I'm not interested in. Were I to read Masq or Jenoff or someone,
I'd end up stealing half their ideas, although I do rush to AtPo
once I've finished.
So just so you know, this is an equivalent to something someone
might post immediately after an episode, if they'd happenned to
be taken pink notes on the back of an envelope. Just so you know.
Anyway...
2.4 'Untouched'
I was initially rather puzzled by this episode in my mind. I was
thinking to myself, 'Mere's drawing parallels I don't get here'.
I kept hearing lines that seemed given with more weight than appeared
obvious. Then I got it.
I'd been going on the obvious parallel, not the important parallel.
Of course, the surface parallel is that Bethany has a depth of
power she cannot control which seems odd to other humans. And
so Angel has a wealth of power which he (thinks he) has learnt
to control. OK, not exactly earth-shattering. But why this overarching
Darla arc? Sure it's giving the season a sense of propulsive intrigue,
and is quite mysterious, but it wasn't fitting in for me. Then
of course I realised- sexual, Oedipal parallels. Darla-Angel.
Bethany and her Father. And the wildcard- Lilah and Holland- who
makes one realise that though the problems in this episode are
supernatural, the causes are almost all human.
The Angel/Darla scenes are some of the most disturbing sex scenes
I think I've ever seen on Buffy or Angel. There's something violent
but strangely magnificent about the consummation at the end of
'Smashed'. There's something obsessive but loving about the sex
scene in 'Where the Wild Things Are'. But here in 'Untouched',
Darla and Angel's scenes are really, really unpleasant. They're
in vampire face, devouring each other like animals in a state
of evil pleasure, implicitly plotting all the time their next
victims. The link between food and sex is perhaps never more emphasised.
I wondered how I managed to get such a strong reaction to a couple
of short scenes. I think it must have been excellent directing
by Joss Whedon. There's not a lot there on paper, but it's nasty
on screen. Couple of thoughts about this. In the familiar camaraderie
scenes between Angel, Cordelia and Wesley, there seemed a little
extra, almost intangible zing. I think this is good directing
by Joss. Also, am I being amnesiac, or is this the first episode
Joss has directed from someone else's script? I think he wrote
all his Buffy directions.
The other reason why the Angel/Darla fantasies are so unpleasant
is because of what they're linked to. Bethany, who is played with
exceptional skill for an (I assume) one week actress. She had
to show fragility, lack of trust, and a growth in strength, and
did all three magnificently. This is one of the nastiest little
stories that I've seen on the shows. I find Father's use of the
word 'rabbit' truly terrifying, and actually jumped slightly from
my seat when he appeared at the Hyperion, with the consequence
of all the windows in the hotel smashing. Of course, Bethany's
trust problems extend even further, as the one person she attempts
to trust, Lilah, has her worst intentions at heart.
So the key scene where these two plots link together. Angel in
bed, aroused by Darla. Bethany coming in, attempting to coldly
seduce him. This is all that Bethany understands. Angel has played
the Father figure, and so now is her father. And all that can
mean is that he wants to 'make love'. Of course, humanising the
act makes Bethany uncomfortable, which is why she has the '18th
Century' line. For her, it's a cold humanless act. She claims
she is not the little innocent. The point is, she reall is still.
Like Buffy at the end of 'Innocence', sex appears to have changed
a lot, but actually love shows it may have changed little. If
Bethany can learn to control her reactions, she may be able to
be innocent again. But it's a hard road.
The same hard road as Angel, and for him it's getting harder.
For this is the important parallel of 'Untouched'. Bethany, while
physically touched and violated everywhere, is untouched by love
and affection. Angel, while giving in to fantasies of lust and
dark obsession, will find no real affection with Darla. Or will
he? Certainly not healthy love. Darla is the consuming mother.
She turned him, and she moulded him. He is both mother and lover,
as Bethany's father is both father and lover. How does Bethany's
hopeful conclusion impact on Angel's continuing?
You all know better than me, having seen the whole season. What
I will say is this. Even before watching 'Dear Boy', I realised
that there was a nasty slide going on for Angel, for several reasons.
He tells Bethany to use her power, to control it. I believer,
(some who have seen the episode more may care to disagree), that
Angel expected and sanctioned Bethany to kill her father. That
she doesn't shows inner strength which is quite unbelievable.
Strength enough to say, you may live, but not near me. To pull
the father up telekinetically a metre short of certain death.Bethany
practices what Angel has taught her. That there just might be
redemption. Not an easy ticket ot be bought from the corner shop.
But a Faith-like, Angel-like struggle.
Ironically, Angel is having problems with the message he imparts.
In this episode, it is manifestly clear that he is starting to
be more compelled by Darla's influence than by the grounding Cordelia
and Wesley, whom he snaps at. And Angel was ready to let the father
die. To say in some situations there can be no redemption. And
as he does this, he starts to allow himself to think that perhaps
he is the father. The man who has committed such heinous crimes
against a person, (Drusilla is his Bethany), that he should never
be forgiven- never have a chance of redemption. And waiting, in
the dark, in the dream self, the real self, is Darla. Interesting
that a Joss directed episode begins with the 'villains'
claiming that they like dreams, and that they tell you about other
people. Just like Joss with his 'Restless'. Windows into peoples
very minds.
Good script from Mere Smith- will look forward to more from her.
Powerful story; well-directed by Joss. And the link between Darla-Angel
and Father-Bethany give the episode a tidy structure. It was one
of those moments like after 'I've Got You Under My Skin', where
it all suddenly clicked.
So from a tightly structured success to a more untidy triumph:
2.5 'Dear Boy'
Not quite so easy to tidy this one up into neat little segments.
All sorts of different things going on simultaneously. To the
important stuff first:
-It's been naggin at my for a while now. Does David Boreanaz actually
sing like that? Or is he singing that badly for the role? Someone
must know. If it's the former, I can only say I'm glad 'Angel'
haven't done a 'Once More, With Feeling'. Lorne is quite enough.
I'm starting to think I might have just figured Greenwalt out
a touch. There's something about his episodes which I find a bit
scattershot. Sometimes dead-on, sometimes mediocre. I think the
thing is, he's ambitious and slightly weird as a writer. He doesn't
have a tidy over-riding structure or theme like Joss Whedon or
Tim Minear usually do. But he also has a certain creative freedom
which they don't. This can result in 'I Fall To Pieces', 'She',
and 'Reptile Boy', or again 'Homecoming', 'To Shanshu', and 'Judgement'.
When his surreal ideas happen to work and meld, it's a bizarre
joy to watch. When it fails, it's an over-complex confusing stew.
So what about this one. I'd say not on a par with 'Judgement',
but a good episode. I would imagine mayn people to be big fans
of this because of the Darla/Angel plot. For me, this was superb
in the final few scenes, but had a strange Morse Code ish disjointedness
up until that point, which is because Greenwalt was trying to
interweave other plots which were not so interesting to me.
I love Kate Lockley as a character. She's one of my favourites.
But she's not used for any thematic purpose in this episode. She's
there as the Police Detective, and as the person who thinks he's
gone bad, which contrasts Cordelia, Wesley and to an extent Gunn's
stoic support. But we don't see more of her story, which is a
disappointment.
It's a similar story with the A?-plot, (although it's really of
B interest, but it's the plot-of-the-week story), about the man
being cheated on. It's a great, typically ephemeral Greenwalt
moment when Cordelia and Wesley look in shocked disbelief at the
fact that he thinks she's being routinely abducted by aliens.
Playing with the audience's suspension of disbelief. We're supposed
to believe there is a rampant thriving demon community in LA,
but that aliens are just ridiculous. And of course they are! But
the story seems a little pointless to me.
Which leaves Darla. The 'Darla-trying-to-pretend-to-be-someone-else'
seemed a touch odd to me. Does she really need to be this undercover
to drive Angel to despair. The very learning that she's back confuses
him plenty.
But, with beautiful execution and a surprising chemistry between
Julie Benz and David Boreanaz, (whose acting is slowly improving,
thank Joss), the final scenes are wonderful. They draw together
the Church joke from earlier in the episode, which is a typical
ME-ism (of the kind of 'Note to self. Religion freaky'), with
Darla's 'God doesn't want you...but I still do' line. And the
number of questions that this scene throws up about any number
of things is staggering. Redemption, (Darla and Angel), new souls,
(Darla and Angel), what it is to be human, (Darla and Angel),
what it is to change (you get the idea), how good can corrupt
and pervert evil, with Buffy, how spirituality is necessary but
sometimes fleeting, and how these two people, connected for 250
years, ('Our love was eternal. Literally'), can ever begin to
understand how to live apart. For this one, it's most specifically
Angel's dilemma. Can he give up on Darla? Will he be lured back.
Signs from this episode point, (for me at least), to him succumbing
later in the season. Massive angst, a fall from grace, and major
tension within the main players. Sounds like excellent fun.
A couple of notes:
-portrayal of Darla was much rounder than before- appreciated
that they largely dumped the dimness she has in Season One Buffy
and went for the mystical allure of 'The Prodigal'.
-Juliet Landau was brilliant in the few seconds she had in the
episode. So few, but so great. More Dru please!, (Oooh, we have
the 'Fool For Love' tie-in soom. Could be lucky!)
-The episode has overtones of resurrection for Darla, who comes
back as different as Jesus did, but appears to be playing the
same old games. Will she adjust and become more human?
- Greenwaltian moments. Cordelia being petted by Angel. Angel
falling asleep in the middle of one of Wes' fascinating speeches.
Gunn's criminal record. Moments of genius, but not fitted together
like the master craftsmen Minear and Whedon. As I say- scattershot.
Thanks for reading. More rambly than usual.
TCH- throwing away his latest envelope
[> [> You can read this
one LOL -- JM, 15:08:11 02/20/03 Thu
TCH -- These are some of my favorite threads. Keep us reminising.
I'm just preserving the thread. Will be back later to comment.
These are two of my many favorite episodes. Probably in the top
twenty. (I have lots of favorites.) Agree with the Dear Boy scatter
shot, but it has so many tremendous moments.
[> [> I'm all a-tingle!
-- Masq, 15:50:30 02/20/03 Thu
I really like revisiting these episodes through unspoiled eyes.
Makes me go, "Just wait until he gets to THIS part!"
You are unspoiled, right? I mean, you hang on this board. How
can you not know a LOT of what happens to Angel in the next three
years?
Just how unspoiled are you?
PS--Love all the vampDarla/Angel, vampDarla/Angelus, humanDarla/Angel
moments on the show(s). One of my favorite pairings because they
just have SO much history together. I think at various points,
they play out every lover's archetype there is--in "Dear
Boy" there's just a few: the mother/mentor, the jilted ex-wife,
the mysterious but familiar woman, the evil temptress.
And there's so many more in other episodes.
[> [> [> Spoiled-ness
-- Tchaikovsky, 16:17:41 02/20/03 Thu
Hmmmm. I wrote to someone else once that I wasn't too worried
about being spoiled about broad, sweeping developments in the
Whedonverse because it's the execution which I love. Like
my possibly all time favourite scene, (I'm such a sadist), Giles
in 'Passion'. You could know everything, but it wouldn't remotely
prepare you.
Starting to wonder about this due to my immense joy at watching
episodes without knowing the endings. Pretty much anything could
happen. I'm afraid I do know the current characters who are alive,
so I know that some people aren't dying any time soon. But there
are big things I genuinely don't know. Does Kate survive and fade
out of the series, or does she die? How does Angel deal with Darla?
Is she got rid of? Does he kill her? Does she leave? Does she
kill herself? No idea. People have been making comments along
the lines of 'You'll not be complaining about the 1-Dness of Wesley
for long!', and I have no idea what they mean.
I am spoiled for a couple of things that I kinda wish I wasn't.
Almost inevitably, I know Connor is Angel's son. I have heard
of a guy called Holtz, (because of Wood comparisons), but don't
really understand anything about him. And there's the mysterious
crossover at the end of 'Flooded', which Buffy doesn't talk about.
I think that's about it.
Oh, and I watched 'Disharmony' when it aired in Britain. Seemed
surface if funny. Didn't learn much.
Hope that clarifies a bit.
TCH
[> [> [> [> I'd
avoid the Holtz/Wood comparisons, if possible -- Masq, 16:23:57
02/20/03 Thu
Because the ones I've read do give away plot details from Season
3 that you may not want to know.
But wow, you've managed to stay pretty darned unspoiled. This
is gonna be fun!
[> [> [> [> [>
That depends on what you mean by the "non-1-D"ness
of Wesley -- Masq, 17:06:02 02/20/03 Thu
Because the 1-Dness TCH is complaining about is gone by the middle
of Season 2, IMO.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Ack, that was supposed to go under Rob's spoiledness
thread! -- Masq, 18:11:47 02/20/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Actually, you're right. (TCH--no specific spoilers, but
you still might want to stay out) -- Rob, 19:23:11 02/20/03
Thu
I guess I meant that most people right now when they say, "You'll
never believe about Wes..." are referring to the darkness
of the mid-to-latter third season (particularly after Sleep Tight).
I don't think there is a drastic change in Wes before that point,
but just a natural evolution that takes place over the first and
second year. Not to say that the darkness in S3/4 isn't natural,
but that happened more quickly from the traumatic events. His
loosening up and becoming less of a textbook Watcher/stuck-up
Brit stereotype was a process that took longer than those that
changed him to the man he is today.
Although, to be honest, I think even in Season 1, there were glimpses
of Wes being more than one-dimensional, particularly in "I've
Got You Under My Skin" and the few glimpses we got here and
there of the more powerful Wes, like his getting the information
out of the guy in "The Ring," and also in his reactions
to Faith in Five By Five and Sanctuary. I don't think Wes was
truly a complete cardboard figure since Buffy threw him to the
curb in "Choices," and maybe even a little before that.
He was definitely more cartoonish when he began, but I think he
became a real person very fast. But I don't think there's an episode
that you can pinpoint and say "Aha! Here's where he changed"
from one-dimensional to three-dimensional the way you can pinpoint
exactly where he started to change from three-dimensional to dark
and 3-dimensional.
Am I making sense?
Oh, and did I mention that Wes is my favorite character on AtS,
and AD, IMO, ties with JM for the best actor in the Buffyverse?
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re:
Spoiled-ness -- Rob, 16:41:15 02/20/03 Thu
"People have been making comments along the lines of 'You'll
not be complaining about the 1-Dness of Wesley for long!', and
I have no idea what they mean."
Besides a few character advances, you'll really be waiting until
mid-season 3 for what people are alluding to re: Wes.
Rob
[> [> Well-reasoned and
well-rounded reviews, as usual. -- Rob, 15:50:50 02/20/03
Thu
Re: DB's singing voice. I don't want to spoil it for you, so let's
just say that there will be an instance where we doesn't sing
quite so badly. He's no great singer, but I think he's exaggerating
here.
Rob
[> [> Untouched: It's
all about violation. -- Arethusa, 23:53:05 02/20/03 Thu
There are three violations that occur in Untouched: Bethany's
by her father, Angelus's and Darla's, and Angel and Bethany by
Wolfram and Hart. Vampirsm is the perfect metaphor for the type
of violation incest commits on a person.
The first violation is Darla's siring of Liam. She drains him
of blood, personality and future. They feed off of each other
and their victims to sustain their lives, coldly and callously
using others to satisfy their sick needs. The feeding is very
sexual, as their copulation shows. (That's why the debate on whether
or not Spike could be a rapist is so silly. Every time he fed,
he raped.) Finally they fed on the wrong victim. Angelus raised
the skirt of a gypsy girl, draining her of blood at the thighs.
And in revenge, he too is raped, when the gypsies force his soul
back into him. From now on he will never know peace, never have
a good night's sleep again.
The second violation is that of Bethany's by her father. He uses
her like Angel and Darla use their victims, coldly and callously
depriving her of personality/personhood, hope, emotions. He takes
her life from her to sustain himself, leaving only an empty room
with a made up bed. She can't even get relief in sleep; he invades
her dreams like he invaded her bed. Incest victims often have
insommnia and nightmares. The abuse never ends, because the dreams
won't let it.
The last violation is that of Angel and Bethany by Wolfram and
Hart. They have Darla invade his dreams, hoping to confuse him
with desire and bloodlust and drive him to her arms again. Control
a person's dreams and you control him, Darla says. And it works.
They are less successful with Bethany, because she has Angel to
help her overcome her fear-fueled dreams. He reminds her that
she has the power to keep from ever being assaulted again. If
she ccontrols it, she can even keep from hurting herself anymore.
Finish it, Angel tells her. Use your unique power to finish the
nightmares, and be free. (Not finish her father-that is losing
herself in the pain. Angel knows that-he killed his own father,
after all, and was never able to regain that power, or ease that
pain.) Lilah told Bethany she sent rapists after he to make Bethany
strong, but that is the type of lie molesters tell their victims-it's
for your own good. And that is the type of lie well-meaning people
tell incest survivors-suffering has made you stronger. It doesn't.
Bethany goes to Angel's bed because that is the only way she knows
how to relate to men. And she will never be innocent again. It
is both the source of her weakness and her strength. Bethany doesn't
need to be redeemed. She's done nothing wrong. She just needs
to rest, and sleep without dreaming.
[> [> [> Excellent
post -- Rahael, 00:57:45 02/21/03 Fri
[> [> [> Great points-
missed that third parallel entirely -- Tchaikovsky, 01:02:30
02/21/03 Fri
[> [> God doesn't want
you.... -- Rahael, 03:18:28 02/21/03 Fri
I am loving your reviews so much!! It's making me see how the
current Angelic themes reach all the way back.
I loved that speech by Darla which ends by saying "God doesn't
want you.....but I still do". That was a wonderful moment.
Never has Angel's name been more poignant - the fallen Lucifer,
trying to go back to heaven but realising he'll never get there.
When I watched S2 I didn't rate Angel as highly as I did Buffy,
and I think it completely coloured the way I watched. This time
around, I'm starting to notice its depth.
Without spoiling, I'll be vague and say that the unhealthy mother/son
relationship between Darla and Angel is resolved, in an oblique
way in S3.
I'm going to go home and watch these eps tonight, so I hope the
thread stays alive for me to add more comments.
[> [> [> Wow- I'm
so dense! -- Tchaikovsky, 04:04:35 02/21/03 Fri
Of course! God doesn't want his fallen Angel! How on earth did
I miss that? Just reminds me how great this board is, with Arethusa's
comments above. We are more than the sum of our parts.
TCH- wondering whether to finish his posts with
There's a cool web of language winds us in
[> [> [> I just have
to ask Rahael this, so TCH don't read (S. 3 AtS spoilers)
-- Masq, 04:47:19 02/21/03 Fri
Rah,
Would you say the unhealthy mother-son relationship between Darla
and Angel gets resolved when they have their own child together,
thereby cementing their relationship as "husband and wife"
(or, at least, ex-husband and ex-wife)?
[> [> [> [> Re:
I just have to ask Rahael this ( S2&3 spoilers) -- Rahael,
05:12:09 02/21/03 Fri
Mostly I was thinking of Darla's attitude to Connor.
She recognises that she's going to harm him. Once Connor leaves
her body, she thinks that all her feelings of love will leave
with him, and she'll never be able to feel that again (wow, that
was such a moving idea). Her decision means that she *chooses*
not to revisit the relationship which she had with Angel.
Also, she and Angel face up to their past within this process.
Angel gets over his obsession with her, learns to care for her
in a healthy way.
Also, (this is inspired by the Oedipal Spike thread), Angel in
S1 of Buffy has to kill Darla, kill the bad mother in order to
move on to Buffy, her blonde, good counterpart.
In S3 Angel, Darla has to die *again* so that her son Connor may
live and grow, and yet again this is explicitly connected to the
idea of possessing a soul. And adolescent Connor is instantly
drawn to blonde, (good or evil??) Cordelia. There are lots of
lingering glances at Cordelia's very maternal looking breasts.
So does Cordy finally contain within herself the paradox of the
Buffy/Darla opposition? Both the bad mother and the good champion?
Of course this may be me overthinking it.
The intriguing addendum to all of this is, that when Connor grows
up he plunges straight into a relationship which has an echo of
Darla/Angel.
I have more thoughts, which I'll try and make more coherent for
later.
Plus, I'm waiting for KdS to start a thread about last evenings
viewing so I can tack on my thoughts!
[> [> [> [> [>
Adding to that... (S3 spoilers) -- Rob, 07:33:11 02/21/03
Fri
You could also say that once Darla enters the final stages of
pregnancy and she is most affected by her baby's soul that her
fear and sadness, that Angel becomes a parental figure towards
her. She is confused and scared, and he is there to console and
talk to her. In many ways, for a short time, she became his child
in "Lullaby."
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
If Anyone looks like Darla, -- Masq, 09:16:20 02/21/03
Fri
It's not Cordelia, it's Connor himself.
Don't you just want to say sometimes, "Get that hair out
of your face, kid!"
But I get your point about Connor being sexually attracted to
a mother figure, just like Daddy used to do.
THE BUFFYVERSE
GUIDE TO DATING, PART DEUX (Spoilers for BTVS thru S6, ANGEL thru
"Rain of Fire") -- Gyrus,
07:39:10 02/19/03 Wed
THE BUFFYVERSE GUIDE TO DATING, PART DEUX
Guys, whether you're on the Hellmouth or in demon-infested L.A.,
looking for Miss Right is like searching for a needle in a kerosene-soaked,
flaming haystack while naked. To make things a bit easier, consult
this helpful guide to the women of the Buffyverse.
Type: Popular girls
Advantages: Look good on your arm
Disadvantages: Probably ashamed of you
Warning: How much do you really want to know about shoes?
Type: Nerdettes
Advantages: All the technical skills of nerds, plus cute button
noses
Disadvantages: Tech-speak when calm, incoherent babbling when
nervous
Warning: Will choose a street punk or a musician if you don't
act quickly.
Type: Witches
Advantages: Cool spells; intriguing bisexual vibe
Disadvantages: Stinky herbs; bisexual vibe may actually be homosexual
vibe
Warning: Piss her off, and you might as well buy yourself a Habitrail.
Type: Vampires
Advantages: Pretty on the outside
Disadvantages: Chilly on the inside
Warning: Necking not recommended.
Type: Seers
Advantages: Helpful visions
Disadvantages: Visions never include lottery numbers
Warning: May boff your unnatural offspring when you're not looking
- or when you are.
Type: Vengeance demons
Advantages: Can teleport to the store when you run out of pretzels
Disadvantages: Veininess; may disembowel your friends
Warning: Do you really need a warning?
Type: Slayers
Advantages: Nice legs; won't keep making you move the couch
Disadvantages: Bad hours; tend to come home covered in demon goo
Warning: Hard on the windows, the ego, and the lower back.
[> Preserving this thread
-- Masq, 09:12:36 02/19/03 Wed
[> [> Thanks! --
Gyrus, 09:32:45 02/19/03 Wed
[> Have I told you that
you rock? -- HonorH, 10:22:03 02/19/03 Wed
Seriously funny stuff, G-man. Feel free to contribute to the seriously
serious threads, too.
[> Fabulous! -- ponygirl,
12:34:41 02/19/03 Wed
[> [> Re: Delightful!
-- Brian, 13:28:07 02/19/03 Wed
He's Bad,
He's Back, and He's Back In Black -and I love him! -- Spike
Lover, 09:40:44 02/19/03 Wed
Ok, he's not really bad, but maybe Spike will get to have some
better lines soon.
I was joyful about the ep. A few minor questions: How did the
coat end up at the school basement? He left it at Buffy's house.
Why would they need to open a portal to get Buffy back? Couldn't
she get back on her own when the Shamen were done?
Now for the good stuff. Apparently it is time to rehash some of
those old controversial issues from a new point of view...
Now we know WHY Buffy is attracted to dark men and why Riley was
never going to work. It is not a case of opposites; it is a case
of similar hearts.
She raves at the group for being weak. They are not so good at
fighting their fears as she. They are having difficulty walking
the line- they are repressing/avoiding their dark sides for fear
of the reprecussions.
As Wesley has learned by embracing the dark side (-pun intended),
you can become stronger, more powerful. Buffy sometimes is like
the sea, at times, her 'power' tide is high and in, sometimes,
it is out (the human, regretful side). When she chews everyone
out, she seems to be at high tide. High tide girl does not want
sensitive William. She wants bad ass Spike, rough sex, walls shaking-floors
collapsing foreplay. (Heck, I want that too.)
Come to think of it, it is pretty inconceivable that Spike would
not kill the demon that was trying to take out Anya. He pulled
- a Xander. Run away and live another day. (Anya too is grasping
at something to hold on to. At what point will she make her own
stand and be counted?)
The Kennedy/Willow thing was interesting. Kennedy not really understanding
what true power is, not understanding what it is like to be a
bystander, not know what it is like to be weak.
Rape issues. Rape issues. Willow basically 'takes' Anya and Kennedy's
power/energy without their consent (or even a warning).
When Buffy is challenging Spike at the house, and Spike says,
you don't know how close you are to getting 'bad' Spike, he meant
it. When a woman challenges a man in that sort of way, don't be
surprised if he rises to the occasion. It goes back to power in
relationships/ power in sex/ you get my drift.
Then you have...
The coat and Buffy's 'violate' line references, imo, our old friend
"Seeing Red".
Let's see. The shamen are going to violate a girl with the spirit
of a demon. In Seeing Red, a demon is sort of trying to violate
Buffy (at low tide). (If he had violated her, would her power
have been increased? NOt likely, as the whole situation was screwed
up.) It is a bad analogy/comparison because of the MANY extenuating
circumstances that occur last season.
Can Buffy increase her power by infusing the spirit of a demon
inside her? Will the Spirit of Spike need to be infused in Buffy,
leaving William as separate and free from vampirism? (Probably
not, but see where I am going?) Can those shamen's sticks be taped
back together?
(Sticks- another symbol?) (She definately broke Spike's stick
in Seeing Red.)
Do the potentials need to be infused with the spirit of a demon
to activate their slayerdom?
Also, what if what all these characters want- is not what they
need. (B goes to seek knowledge, but what they say she needs is
power.)
[> Time to put up or shut
up -- BD23, 09:59:29 02/19/03 Wed
If Spike gets his sarcasm back, I'm all for the duster. Could
live without the cigarettes though.
I guess I understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure
that the balance of power really got tripped. I still feel that
the characters are too unsure. BTVS has lacked strong leadership/reasoning
skills. It's a sad comment that DAWN is the brains in the operation
(although kudos to the character for finding a purpose). They
need purpose before they'll figure out how to use their power.
[> [> Re: Time to put
up or shut up -- Spike Lover, 10:03:25 02/19/03 Wed
"but I'm not sure that the balance of power really got tripped."
Not certain what you mean by this, but agree with all else that
you said.
[> [> [> Not sure
I do either = ) -- BD23, 11:16:34 02/19/03 Wed
For some explanation, the post above was all about upsetting or
changing the balance of power. Since each of the characters remained
rather isolated at the end, I doubt that the group power structure
was even effected by the events. That said, I do think each individual
faced a power crisis that will have to be resolved. I just don't
think it effected the group structure as much as it needs to in
order to result in a cohesive group.
[> [> [> [> Military
training methods (spoilers for lastest Buffaloneousness) --
fresne, 12:06:28 02/19/03 Wed
Which gets at something my housemate and I were discussing.
In the episode, Kennedy et al seem to be using the methodologies
used by military organizations to train young (traditionally male)
recruits.
It's a methodology that's described very interestingly from the
inside by T.E. Lawrence in The Mint, since he is very acutely
aware of what it is they are trying to do and yet he is affected
by it nevertheless. However, you don't really need to read up
on Foucault, the rise of the permanent military, etc. to know
that drill sergeants call recruits maggots. We all watch movies.
Trick is the latest studies show that that those time tested strip
you down/build you up methodologies don't function in the same
way with female recruits because (may the Nature vs. Nurture debates
begin) women as a generalized group don't form social connections
in quite the same way as men.
Of course, this is all very vague from my perspective, since I'm
not the child of several generations of Coast Guard as my housemate
is, and am therefore not so up on this kind of thing.
However, it does make me wonder if this isn't at the heart of
the difficulties in "forging" Buffy's all girl, all
Slayer army. Calling them maggot and making them do 20 won't work
as well as movies would have Kennedy think.
Time for a new methodology. A new case study.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Military training methods (spoilers for lastest Buffaloneousness)
-- DEN, 15:57:56 02/19/03 Wed
I've often compared the current s7 situation to a fighter squadron
that has taken a beating and now has to absorb a lot of green
replacements. The surviving old hands, Willow, Xander, Spike,
are shaky. The SiTs, though, are individual fighters who must
learn to work together AND on their own--they're not part of a
disciplined mass. And that's why Kennedy's close order drill approach
was so wrong-footed. She should go to her local Blockbusters and
rent the Errol Flynn version of "Dawn Patrol," or try
John Wayne's "Flying Leathernecks" if she wants to learn
something about rebuilding morale in a shot-up air unit.
[> Yay? -- cjl, 11:39:35
02/19/03 Wed
Don't get me wrong. I loved seeing badass, nothin'-better-than-a-good-scrap,
arse-kicking Spike in GID. But there are certain aspects of the
new/old Spike that give me the willies....
1. The leather duster. This is the symbol of Spike as Fighter,
the fists and fangs member of Angelus' team, the sartorial equivalent
of Warren's orbs. But we can't forget that Spike stripped it off
the body of the Slayer he'd just killed, like Willow stripping
off Warren's skin. (And just in case we did forget, Wood is RIGHT
THERE to remind us.) Donning the duster is Spike's way of re-connecting
with his power, but it reminds the audience of the darkness of
that power. Spike has his old swagger back, but I worry that he
might slip back into old habits. (Like cigarette smoking.)
2. It's All About Buffy. Dammit, doesn't Spike have any will of
his own? The last time Doug Petrie wrote and directed an episode
("As You Were"), Buffy told Spike she couldn't continue
their affair because she was using him. She said she couldn't
love him because he was an amoral, brutal thing and didn't have
a soul. Well, Spikey--love's bitch that he is--went out and remolded
himself in the image of what he thought was Buffy's dream man.
And what happens? It's STILL not enough. Buffy calls him a "wimpire."
She wants the old Spike back, and our boy William dutifully complies.
Buffy says Spike's new soul will enable him to choose to be good.
But he's not choosing anything if he keeps following around Buffy
like a puppydog. And if he doesn't know how to choose, he might
still be manipulated into doing evil....
So, yay to rough-and-tumble Spike, and yay to Snarky Spike, but
I'll have an I'm-not-so-sure-about-this chaser with that shot
of whiskey...
[> [> Here, here. I'll
raise my glass to that. -- BD23, 11:45:26 02/19/03 Wed
Those are very close to my exact sentiments. Is there really a
future for this character or will he always be the tag-along?
[> [> Re: Yay? --
ponygirl, 12:09:09 02/19/03 Wed
It's a sad fact that the things that look the coolest-- like kicking
ass, wearing cool jackets, smoking, that navel-piercing that I
kind of regret-- are not always the healthiest.
The thing that really gave me the wiggins was Spike's increasing
isolation from the gang. He says himself that he's making himself
scarce as much as possible. He's never around when the decisions
are being made, and even when he is he's rarely in the same shot
with other people. Anya's mad at him, so's Buffy, the others seem
largely indifferent even when he's being thrown through ceilings.
This doesn't bode well for the inevitable showdown with Wood,
who seems to have been swiftly welcomed into the gang.
Oddly enough the most hopeful sign to me was not the return to
leather, but Spike getting thrown through the ceiling. Good ol'
house metaphor! It was the reverse of Smashed, this time Spike
is ascending but he's quite on his own. Let the Spike Sacrificial
Deathwatch commence!
[> [> [> Ponygirl,
you've said it all! -- dream, 12:21:31 02/19/03 Wed
Though I am still hoping Spike survives the season. Don't forget
the eventual movies - you know Joss wants them! He can't kill
off Spike - at least not for good. Here's hoping for an *attempted*
sacrificial death.
Anyone else think Willow could reach out to Spike more effectively
than anyone else? Would be very excited to see a scene between
the two of them. Of course, Dawn would be able to help, too.
[> [> [> Too pessimistic?
-- Dariel, 20:27:34 02/19/03 Wed
I don't think Spike is so isolated. In fact, in the past two eps,
his interactions with the group have been increasing. Okay, no
one's hugged him, but when have they ever! Spike has been in on
the discussions and action (during last week's discussion about
the taping of the FE, plus helping to save Xander). This week,
he went drinking with Anya (or tried to) and collaborated with
the gang on getting Buffy back.
The gang may not love him, but I don't see them giving him up
to Wood. He's saved all of their lives multiple times--What's
Wood ever done for them?
I sometimes worry that they're going to kill off/sacrifice Spike
too. However, I can't see ME doing something so unoriginal. I
fully expect them to surprise me!
[> [> [> [> Re:
Too pessimistic? (well known casting spoiler) -- Tyreseus,
20:48:24 02/19/03 Wed
I don't think Spike is so isolated. In fact, in the past two
eps, his interactions with the group have been increasing. Okay,
no one's hugged him, but when have they ever! Spike has been in
on the discussions and action (during last week's discussion about
the taping of the FE, plus helping to save Xander). This week,
he went drinking with Anya (or tried to) and collaborated with
the gang on getting Buffy back.
And he's making that human connection a hell of a lot faster than
that other souled vamp did. He didn't need an ambassador
from the PTB (Whistler/Doyle) to tell him to get out there and
do it. Of course, he's got Buffy.
My theory is that he's still somewhat in shock from getting the
soul. I don't think he's really and truly coped with the things
he did as the Big Bad. He's still coasting on Buffy's belief in
him, although true redeption takes longer and more pain.
From Sanctuary:
Faith: "God, it hurts. I hate that it hurts like this."
Angel: "Oh well, it's supposed to hurt. All that pain, all
that suffering you caused is coming back on you. Feel it! Deal
with it! Then maybe you've got a shot at being free."
So far, Spike's been insane, drunk, tortured, drunk, and had a
few heart-to-hearts with Buffy. I see Wood as being a major player
in Spike's eventual road to redemption. He has to start apologizing
for what he did, and Wood (with their machismo rivalry over Buffy)
is going to be damn difficult to apologize to. I hope it's on
the same level as Faith's trying to set things right with Buffy
in Sanctuary.
Maybe Faith can sponsor a vampire now. I wonder who Spike will
get to sponsor to continue the trend? Kennedy? Andrew? Connor
(wouldn't that be fun - yeah, your dad's a poofter, but he's a
good poofter)?
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Too pessimistic? (well known casting spoiler) -- ponygirl,
07:07:12 02/20/03 Thu
Hmm, do you think Wood would accept an apology? Or even listen
to one if Spike was offering? Wood's really the wild card in this,
we don't know what kind of a man he is and the few clues we've
had kind of cancel each other out. Nice guy, snappy dresser, ignores
the First mostly, but then he also concealed his identity from
Buffy, manipulated her, and hid Jonathon's body. I think he's
in the process of sussing Buffy and her gang out, trying to decide
what he's going to do. Does he serve vengenance or the greater
good?
[> [> Am I the only one?
-- Traveler, 22:26:03 02/19/03 Wed
It seemed to me that Spike's battle lust was rather forced. Maybe
I'm just misinterpreting something in JM's facial expression,
but I thought he was trying to convince himself as much as anything.
As a result, I'm still not convinced that we've seen the return
of the old badass Spike.
[> [> [> It was forced
-- Spike Lover, 10:54:03 02/20/03 Thu
But all the characters were. Willow was forced. Spike was forced.
Buffy was nearly forced.
I think Spike is really struggling right now. As he was last year.
It is the mixed messages from Buffy that do it. Last year, it
was: You are evil and disgusting, and I want your love and your
body. But you mean nothing to me.
Now it is: You can be a good man. If you work hard enough, I can
forgive you and possibly love you. Wait, you are a wimp. Your
weakness disgusts me. I want you back the way you were.
It must be hard to date a bi-polar. It reminds me of an old song:
Should I stay or should I go.
There is a line in it that says, "First day is fine, the
Next is black."
I don't think Spike knows what she wants and he is sick of trying.
Perhaps the question is why does Spike want to go out drinking?
Is it because of the inevitable doom that is coming? I don't think
so. Is it that he is ashamed of his past 'evil' acts as a vampire?
Maybe some, but not all. Is it that he continues to feel disconnected
to who he is now. He has to be good, moral, because that is what
Buffy wants, but what is his true behavior. He reminds me of someone
on their best behavior. That is why he does not say anything snarky.
It is not 'appropriate' for someone with a moral core.
I don't know, just some thoughts and observations.
[> [> [> [> Re:
It was forced -- afterlife, 11:55:54 02/20/03 Thu
Perhaps the question is why does Spike want to go out drinking?
Is it because of the inevitable doom that is coming? I don't think
so. Is it that he is ashamed of his past 'evil' acts as a vampire?
Maybe some, but not all. Is it that he continues to feel disconnected
to who he is now. He has to be good, moral, because that is what
Buffy wants, but what is his true behavior. He reminds me of someone
on their best behavior. That is why he does not say anything snarky.
It is not 'appropriate' for someone with a moral core.
Actually, Spike pretty much says why he goes drinking in the first
conversation with Anya:
ANYA: "I swear, if Buffy rooms or boards one more of the
potential girls, I'm gonna call a... I'm gonna call a health inspector."
SPIKE: "I like my plan better. Get up, get out, get drunk.
Repeat as needed. It's just more elegant."
[> [> [> [> He
was trying on an old identity and an old coat. -- WickedBuffy,
12:31:14 02/20/03 Thu
It seems like Spike doesn't know who he is now. Identity crisis.
He's no longer as he was when he originally had a soul - a hopeless
romantic considered a wimp and a bad poet by his peers. He's gone
through too much in too long. He has a soul now, but it was not
as much an much inner-directed decision as is was to please someone
else, for what he thought she wanted.
Now, because he was trying to mold himself into somebody Buffy
would love, and it didn't work - he seems to not know who he is.
He's not the simpering poet, he's not the Big Bad vampire, he's
not Buffys guy.
So, it looks like he's trying on his old identity, presoul, when
he relished fighting and loved it. It looked forced to me, too.
Because he's not that, anymore, either.
It seems like everyone on the show through the years, has gone
thru a "Who Am I" confusing phase, "where do I
fit in" .... except Spike. Until now. (Can you think of a
major character who hasn't?)
Maybe that comes with a soul, though, too? (Anya is a big question
mark to me on that one, though.)
[> [> Choice -- Spike
Lover, 11:07:12 02/20/03 Thu
1) "Spike has his old swagger back, but I worry that he might
slip back into old habits. (Like cigarette smoking.)"
On the one hand, I think that this is a writer's method of getting
the old Spike back into the writing without disrupting the story
line.
Choice: The thing about Sleeper was that Spike seemed to have
returned to bad habits, but in truth, he had not made that choice.
The interesting thing about vampire mythology is that vamps supposedly
are creatures who must feed on human blood. It is their nature.
Spike is rare in that he would exercise a new choice and choose
not to feed (due to the chip). He could have continually knocked
off the human blood banks. Even after he realizes he can bite
Buffy, he chooses not to.
Ok, now I have forgotten what my point was.
2) Doing what Buffy says. Well, when you love, you tend to bend
to the other's will or what you perceive the other's will is.
It does not necessarily make you weak. It might make you terribly
strong. The only way for him not to be interested in what Buffy
wants is for him to become indifferent to her.
Never mind.
Got to go.
Embracing
the darker powers -- BD23, 09:46:21 02/19/03 Wed
I agree that the episode was about embracing the true source of
power, but I was a little disappointed in the reasoning and response.
For one thing, despite last season, Buffy still seems unaware
of how her actions will be interpreted. She never interceded when
Kennedy was cruel to Chloe and she still insults Spike despite
her knowledge that he will do ANYTHING to please her. I'm disappointed
that she's still so clueless.
As for Spike and Willow, they both did what needed to be done,
but I worry that this won't bode well for Spike. Willow is too
entrenched on the side of good to lose much ground but Spike is
still blown about by the wind. Since the writer have yet to provide
him with ANY friend or confidante, he is still up for grabs and
the FIRST is offering free advice lately. Spike will always need
support and he'll go with whoever offers it. That may not be the
best character trait, but I know a lot of real people with the
same flaw.
S7 and "The
Buffy Formula" ("Get It Done" Spoilers and Speculation)
-- J, 09:57:13 02/19/03 Wed
Is anyone else beginning to think that the First Evil is not the
Big Bad of this season?
Those of you who are familiar with The
Buffy Formula know that Seasons 2, 3, 4, and 6 of BtVS followed
a recognizable pattern for seasonal story arcs. When "Lessons"
aired, there was much ta-do about the fact that ME had apparently
revealed the BB in the first episode of the season, something
they didn't even do in S5. However, the rumblings subsided when
ME actually identified the shapeshifting entity from "Lessons"
as the FE. Given the pronouncements from Joss that this season
wwas supposed to be going "Back to the Beginning", it
made sense that the FE would end up being the BB.
I accepted this as well, but after the final scene of "Get
It Done," I've developed a gnaw in my gut about it. That
homage to "The Two Towers" was pretty scary, but it
was also a bit of a letdown in a way, primarily because I can't
identify any metaphor behind it. An army of Turok-Han swarming
over the world seems purely genre to me, and doesn't have the
kind of emotional and metaphoric resonance that, say, the Mayor
had. Plus, ME has revealed the master plan of the "BB"
a little early, haven't they? Even in S5, we didn't understand
exactly what Glory was planning to do until "Spiral,"
the third-to-last episode of the season.
In short, I'm starting to believe that the FE is a mislead. In
fact, I've even got a wacky theory about who the real Big
Bad of the season is. Of course, it's a wacky theory I came up
with this morning in the shower, but it would provide an cohesive
explanation for almost all of the information we've go up to this
point, and it really does go "back to the beginning."
[> Re: S7 and "The
Buffy Formula" (already aired ep spoilers) -- Rob, 10:06:46
02/19/03 Wed
"I accepted this as well, but after the final scene of
"Get It Done," I've developed a gnaw in my gut about
it. That homage to "The Two Towers" was pretty scary,
but it was also a bit of a letdown in a way, primarily because
I can't identify any metaphor behind it. An army of Turok-Han
swarming over the world seems purely genre to me, and doesn't
have the kind of emotional and metaphoric resonance that, say,
the Mayor had. Plus, ME has revealed the master plan of the "BB"
a little early, haven't they? Even in S5, we didn't understand
exactly what Glory was planning to do until "Spiral,"
the third-to-last episode of the season."
I disagree, because I think it was time we really saw what a threat
the FE could be. By this point, a lot of people were questioning
if any harm at all could really come from the FE. It can't touch
anything and has up until now worked through smoke and mirrors,
besides the raising of that one Turok-han. And I thought that
was a great red herring that the Turok-han was killed. At the
time I thought, "That was it?" But then that in FD we
saw that Turok-Han arm, and I thought, "Could there be more?"
And now we know for sure. Sure, one Turok-Han could eventually
be killed. But how can they stand up against a huge army of them,
each just as hard to kill as the first one. Just that single one
took Buffy a long time to kill. At the start of the season, I
was afraid of the FE, but I started to lose a bit of that. Now
I'm scared again. Since we have really only seen the FE from the
heroes' perspective, and never by itself, planning, like Glory
or the Mayor or any of the other Big Bads, it was high-time IMO
to see its plan. I like when the show defies formula. I liked
how the season 4 finale took place after the climax of the story.
And I like how this year, the stakes are being raised higher than
ever before, and earlier than ever before. That army of Turok-Han
raised some great epic stirrings of awe within me. Not only was
it not a let down for me, but it was one of my favorite moments
in the show's history. I am so stoked for the coming battle...and
the upcoming break before the last bunch of episodes is going
to kill me, I swear.
Rob
[> [> Re: S7 and "The
Buffy Formula" (already aired ep spoilers) -- J, 13:01:59
02/19/03 Wed
Oh, don't get me wrong -- the Turok-han army is unquestionably
scary, as is the FE!
What I mean is that I'm having trouble tying the 'scariness' of
the FE to the show's central metaphor of personal female empowerment,
particularly in light of our new knowledge that the FE's plan
is (apparently) to release the Turok-han army. That doesn't have
the touch of devious megalomania that I expect from a Big Bad
-- there's no 'plan', there's just overwhelming brutal force.
Contrast this with the actions of the Beast on AtS, where there
is clearly a big diabolical plan in the works.
[> [> [> But think
about this. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:20:25 02/19/03 Wed
Almost every Big Bad on BtVS has had one goal: destroy humanity.
How they go about it varies, but that is always what's at the
end of the agenda. So, it's not really about what the Big Bad
is trying to release, but about how they go about it.
Also, I agree there didn't seem to be much metaphorical about
the Turok-Han army (except possibly the sheer vastness of evil
that there is in the world), but I expect differently will be
done once they arrive (or start to arrive).
[> [> Of course, it will
take a LOT of blood (still spoilers) -- Vickie, 14:57:10
02/19/03 Wed
It took all of Jonathan's blood and some of Spike's to get the
first TH out. Either there's another ritual, or there's going
to be a LOT of blood.
[> Care to share your (presumably
unspoiled) speculations? I'm definitely curious -- dream,
12:37:17 02/19/03 Wed
[> [> Re: Care to share
your (presumably unspoiled) speculations? I'm definitely curious
-- J, 13:24:53 02/19/03 Wed
Unspoiled, unless you count watching AtS and knowing about the
Well-Known Casting Spoiler(tm) as being spoiled!
Rest assured, I'll share it once it's fully formed. I'm trying
to marshall all the evidence I can for this one. Mind you, I'd
be shocked if I'm actually right, seeing as how my theory
is wacky in the extreme, but it's really fun to think about!
When you can't
"Get it done" (spoilers) -- lunasea, 10:17:40
02/19/03 Wed
Wanted to get my ideas down before I read what others had to say.
The title really bugged me last night, even before the episode
aired. I knew that I heard it before and it was important, but
I couldn't place it. I don't know if anyone pointed this out yet
or not. In writing this essay, I figured it out.
There is one thing I learned in college that has stuck with me
more than anything, when you are damned if you do and damned if
you don't, you can do whatever the hell you want. The question
then becomes what do you want. That is where our mettle is truly
decided. When there is no way to win, what do you do? Not when
you still have a shred of hope left and even though the odds are
against you, you stand up and fight. When all hope is gone and
no matter what you do, you will loose, what do you do? Truth is
revealed in pain. Our character is revealed when we have no hope.
Buffy told Giles in "First Date" that you cannot fight
evil by doing evil. That is exactly from where the physical power
of our two heroes comes. Angel was vamped and cursed, both evil
things. The Slayer's original power comes from the heart of a
demon and was forced on a girl chained up. Unspeakable evil was
done to these two characters. Angelus wasn't cursed to protect
people. He was cursed to make him suffer. It was an evil action,
even if eventually he did turn good.
However, is that really the source of our heroes' power? AtS and
BtVS are more than stories about superheroes fighting demons.
AtS is about Angel's struggle to become human again. I think it
was rather fitting for Connor to result from the same action that
causes Angel to have his epiphany. Not being able to have children
is one of the big differences between vampires and humans. Angel's
epiphany made him more human, thus able to conceive a child. That
experience did not reach Darla, so even though Darla could be
the vessel for that child, she was unable to give birth to it.
Since Angel isn't fully human yet, Connor isn't quite normal.
Connor is the cross between someone sired and a human child. His
emotional state reflects this even more than his physical abilities.
The more I think about this character, the more I like him. Now
I am actually hoping the kid gets through this season. Sleeping
with Evil Cordy will probably provide the experience necessary
for his epiphany, just like sleeping with his sire provided the
necessary experience for Angel.
What does it mean to be human? That seems to be the question fundamental
to both shows. In the Buffyverse, the soul is central to this
question. In "Angel" Angel tells us what that is. "No
conscience, no remorse. It's an easy way to live. You have no
idea what it is like to have done the things I've done and...to
care." That is the core of Angel's character, he cares. David
Boreanaz plays the underlying vulnerability of Angel incredibly
well. He is much more than dark, mysterious, broody man.
In Pinocchio, the Blue Fairy tells Pinocchio what he has to do
to become human, be "brave, truthful, and unselfish."
His conscience will help him do this. In that story, the conscience
is a plot device to tell him what is right and what is wrong.
By doing what is right, Pinocchio will become worthy of being
made into a real boy. Why does Pinocchio want to be made real?
Because Gepetto, a good man, wants a real child to love. From
that desire alone, Pinocchio is made into an wooden boy, an animated
puppet. It is that desire, that love for Geppetto, that drives
the story.
What causes Pinocchio to become human? He gives his life to save
Gepetto. Why does he do this? Does his "conscience"
tell him to? Does he do it to be worthy? Does he do it to be "brave,
truthful, and unselfish?" Nope. He does it because he loves
Gepetto. He does it because he cares. He is "brave, truthful,
and unselfish" because he cares.
Cordy, queen of the obvious, calls Angel Pinocchio in "To
Shanshu in LA." Just like Pinocchio, Angel missed what it
was to be human. His first go around as Liam, he spent a decent
amount of time on Pleasure Island and it got him into serious
trouble. Now everywhere he looks around, Gepetto is about to go
under and he has to do something.
Gepetto appears in the form of a tiny baby in China and a beautiful
blond high school student. He is a former rich stuck-up superficial
snob. He is a beautiful blond police detective. He is an unconfident
former Watcher. He is a beautiful blond former vampire who cannot
deal with her own humanity. He is a frightened girl who got trapped
in another dimension. He is an ungrateful, spiteful son. He is
tons of people that cry in the dark and need a hero.
Does Angel have to rescue Gepetto? At one point, he wanted to
go under himself. He lost all hope and all he wanted was "it
finished." This is the turning point for Angel and it happens
in the episode that bears his name. Darla has made it so Buffy
is now hunting Angel. Either he kills her or he will be killed.
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He can't win this one.
When he finally sees Buffy again he tells her, "Let's get
it done!" Buffy is now in the same position in the episode
titled "Get it Done." (going back to the beginning)
In "Angel," Darla offers Angel a way to be free. She
wants him to be a demon again. She thinks that what drives him
is his vamp nature. If he would just stop fighting this, he would
find peace. When Angel comes across Buffy at The Bronze, she says
he is worse than an animal. For a while she sees Angel as something
inhuman. So does Angel. He wants it over, but not over in the
same manner Darla does. He wants to die. In that moment, Buffy
sees what powers Angel. It isn't his vamp nature. It is his soul,
his humanity, his ability to care. She does something incredible
to show him this, she unarms herself and offers him her neck.
She shows him that he is something more than a vampire.
That is what Buffy will need. In "Get it Done," the
Shadowmen offered Buffy a way to become stronger to beat the First.
They want her to accept the heart of the demon that made the First
Slayer. They think that what drives the Slayer is this demon heart.
If she would accept losing her humanity, she would become stronger.
When she doesn't accept this, the head Shadowman shows her what
the First is amassing. She believes that she can not defeat this.
What comes next? Who will bare his neck to Buffy so that she can
see that the Slayer is much more than that demon heart? How will
Buffy learn what truly powers her? Seems she forgot what the Spirit
Guide told her. Buffy is now in a damned if you do, damned if
you don't situation. We will see what she is truly made of now.
Not what the Slayer is. We will see what Buffy Anne Summers is
made of.
[> what this might mean
for spike -- Seven, 11:27:49 02/19/03 Wed
I like the Pinnochio analogy
i see a lot of this in Spike as well---Though i know you were
getting at the fact that anyone can be this character---
Spike was made almost-human when he got his chip--
He wasn't the vamp with a soul but he definetly wasn't a vamp
or a man. He was the animated puppet. Now he has the soul and
the wood is flesh (no chip)
Here's where i see a problem. I doubt ME will do this---they'll
probably make Spike die as a hero or something---But did anyone
else get a sinking feeling when Spike and Wood had a pissing contest
in the basement?
Wood, in reference to his newly acquired soul, asks Spike, "How's
that working out for you?" What exactly is the answer? We
all assume that b/c Angel has a soul and is good that Spike will
be that way too.
Here's a theory---Spike is obviously "Buffy's bitch"
as someone posted, but will this last? Maybe when Spike realizes
that Buffy is not the be all and end all, (As Angel has realized
now more or less) he (Spike) will not choose the same path.
Angel did years (centuries?) of literal soul searching before
he found the path of good. Maybe upon thinking about it, Spike
will choose the other way. William saw no other way out. After
being hurt by a girl who he finally realized will never care for
him the way he wants, William succumbed to darkness and buried
his noble past under death and destruction.
What will he choose this time around?
[> Re: When you can't "Get
it done" (spoilers) -- BD23, 11:40:51 02/19/03 Wed
Interesting. I'd picked up on the 'Buffy needs to face herself'
but not taken it so far as the need to address her own humanity.
It makes sense to me. I've often seen Buffy as the least human
of the people/things that she holds close (vampires, demons included).
(I would, however, still like to send her to a 7 Habits of Highly
Effective People conference. Maybe that's what Giles should give
her for her birthday...)
Our
Bodies, Our (Demon) Selves (Spoilers for "Calvary" and
"Get It Done") -- cjl, 10:27:52 02/19/03 Wed
Many posters below have remarked how Buffy's encounter with the
Shadowmen in "Get It Done" is similar to Cordelia's
major encounter with Skip in "Birthday" (AtS S3).
I think comparing Buffy and Cordy's choices is interesting, because
even though Cordy's seems to have been the more "selfless"
action, it may have had negative repercussions far beyond anyone
could have imagined--including Cordy herself. Meanwhile, Buffy's
choice, while seemingly foolish, may in fact, have been the best
for all concerned.
Cordy first. When Skip presented Cordelia with the choice between
life as a sitcom superstar (essentially turning her into Rebecca,
the actress she worshipped in S1's "Eternity"), and
Angel's Gal Friday, Cordy goes the noble route and instantly chooses
the visions and the demonic power necessary to wield them. On
the face of it, it seems as if Cordy transcended her Sunnydale
origins as shallow bitca and became a selfless (huh--there's that
word again) champion for righteousness. Hugs and puppies all around.
But is that how things turned out? Let's face it, Cordelia was
never the same after "Birthday," and now, after the
startling events of "Calvary," we're wondering if the
deal she made with Skip on that fateful day was on the up-and-up.
Did Skip tell her the whole truth about the consequences of being
infused with a demon spirit? Did Cordelia, operating from an exaggerated
sense of her own importance, sell her soul in exchange for power?
Has she allowed herself to be used by the forces of darkness,
or--even more disturbing in these circumstances--the Powers that
Be for some unfathomable purpose?
If Cordelia has been duped, I can hardly blame her for that choice.
It's tragedy (there should be Greeks!), not foolishness. Skip
is (supposedly) an employee of the (supposedly) great force for
good in the Whedonverse, who supply her with those nifty visions
that help Angel help the helpless. Why shouldn't she trust him?
(When you hear the voice from On High, and the Lord's messenger
appears before you, you don't normally scratch your chin and mutter,
"Gee, I don't know about this...") It's only when you
compare Cordelia's encounter to Buffy's that the horror of Cordy's
situation becomes apparent.
Buffy's encounter with the Shadowmen is Cordy's encounter with
Skip, stripped down to its ugly essence. The Shadowmen chain Buffy
to the Earth, and attempt to infuse her with the black-as-night
essence of a demon. Unlike Cordy, Buffy has always distrusted
her powers to a certain degree, and the Shadowmen--as the primary
Agents of that power--get a healthy dose of that distrust. When
the Shadowmen make a "generous" offer to give Buffy
the power to fight the First, Buffy is not grateful, confused,
frightened or awed--she is OUTRAGED. She sees the ritual as nothing
less than rape, a violation of the body of the First Slayer at
the beginning of history, a violation which has been metaphorically
repeated as each Slayer has been called--until now. Buffy breaks
the chain, breaks the cycle, determined to find a new way.
Buffy, as she has done throughout the series, has asserted control
over her own body, her own destiny. She doesn't see how she can
defeat the First Evil, but her determination to maintain Free
Will is so powerful that any other choice would have been a violation
of the character. It was an enormously powerful statement of "female
empowerment," exactly what Joss was promising at the start
of the season.
Meanwhile...sigh. Poor Cordy. She made her choice, perhaps without
all the facts, but her choice, nonetheless. Instead of a player
with Free Will, she's a pawn of Great Forces, whose ultimate role
is beyond our current comprehension, or even her own.
JMO. Further opinions?
[> Re: Our Bodies, Our (Demon)
Selves (Spoilers for "Calvary" and "Get It Done")
-- ponygirl, 11:15:53 02/19/03 Wed
Great post, cjl! I think you summed it up beautifully. Buffy is
going against the established order, redefining the job as Wood
puts it, but until she comes up with a new structure to replace
the ones she's tumbling I think there's going to be a lot of doubt
on her part and on the part of the Scoobies. While I agree with
her rejection of the Shadow Men I'm concerned with how she did
it. Everything has become oppositional (granted they attacked
her first)-- the Shadowmen, the Council, is there nothing else
she can take from them other than anger and fearful visions?
[> Re: Our Bodies, Our (Demon)
Selves (Spoilers for "Calvary" and "Get It Done")
-- maddog, 11:32:04 02/19/03 Wed
Well said...thanks for saying what I said, but much more eloquently(sp?).
I'm just wondering if anyone on Angel will figure it out in time
to save poor Cordy.
[> Re: Our Bodies, Our (Demon)
Selves (Spoilers for "Calvary" and "Get It Done")
-- Darby, 12:32:29 02/19/03 Wed
If Bufy has broken that chain, are we moving toward a situation
where the Slayer Power becomes less unpredictable? Will the next
Slayer be a willing volunteer, or from a pool of accepting protos,
chosen by a council of Slayerettes?
Will Buffy herself end the Line, at least as it has been known?
[> Cordy's choice (Spoilers
for "Birthday"-"Calvary") -- Masq, 13:00:04
02/19/03 Wed
I went to Psyche and pulled out the exchange between Skip and
Cordelia. It's pretty darned vague, but Skip does warn her there
could be unpredicatable reprecussions:
Cordy: "I'll take it."
Skip: "You may wanna think about that. The only way *you*
get to keep the visions is by becoming - part demon. (Cordy looks
down) The process isn't easy. It'll make your vision pain feel
like a stroll through candyland. And even after the pain subsides
the effects of the transition will be numerous and unpredictable.
You may never be able to lead a human life again."
Cordy looks over at Angel (who appears to be frozen in time),
then back at Skip.
Cordy: "So - demonize me already."
Nevertheless as an (alleged) agent of the PTB's, Skip is pleased
when she choses to become part demon. Perhaps the PTB's themselves
couldn't predict what might come out of Cordelia being part demon.
I remember being disappointed after "Birthday" that
Cordelia didn't start having immediate bad reprecussions. Of course,
with ME, things happen over the course of seasons, not episodes.
It will be interesting to see if the current Cordy weirdness is
the result of her being part demon.
[> [> Re: Cordy's choice
(Spoilers for "Birthday"-"Calvary") --
cjl, 13:14:12 02/19/03 Wed
Skip: You may wanna think about that. The only way *you* get to
keep the visions is by becoming - part demon. (Cordy looks down)
The process isn't easy. It'll make your vision pain feel like
a stroll through candyland. And even after the pain subsides the
effects of the transition will be numerous and unpredictable.
You may never be able to lead a human life again.
[Cordy looks over at Angel (who appears to be frozen in time),
then back at Skip.]
Cordy: So - demonize me already.
And what exactly did Cordelia think the consequences would be?
Did she ever think that she might wind up like Angel--sharing
her body with a demonic presence with an agenda all its own? Did
Skip mention this possibility?
No, as I recall, Cordy was looking around for a tail (or maybe
horns), the way Buffy was during "Earshot." Cordy, as
befitting her character, looked at the process of transformation
on a superficial, purely physical level. She never considered
the truly horrific possibilities until it was too late.
Still, as I said earlier, Skip should have told her the whole
truth (if he knew it). As of now, I consider the events of "Birthday"
to be a particularly nasty "Bait and Switch" operation......
[> Choices & Violations
? (Spoilers up to Btvs7.15 & Ats 4.12) -- s'kat, 13:33:10
02/19/03 Wed
Up until last night's episode, I'd been making the mistake of
paralleling Cordy and Spike in my head - two characters being
manipulated by an outside force, which they may still very well
be. But last night made me realize there was another possible
more important theme being paralleled in both series.
Choice and Power and Violation
Has Cordelia really chosen her power? Doyle more or less forced
his power on her when he kissed her in HERO as a parting gift.
Cordy had no choice in the matter and could not pass it on.
However - as time passes she is given two opportunities to rid
herself of it:
1. Pylea - Groo is willing to take it instead. Cordelia refuses,
she wishes to maintain her place in AI and continue to help Angel
even if the visions are killing her.
2. Birthday - Skip offers to take it from her or imbue her with
the ability to handle it, make her part demon. Otherwise he states
it will kill her. She doesn't know if the part-demon part gives
her more power at that point, just that it will make it possible
for her to handle the visions without having her head explode.
Later Skip returns again - in Tomorrow - informing Cordy that
while it is her "choice", it is time she was elevated,
she passed on the tests, she can be a higher being now.
More power. Cordy gets to choose between meeting Angel
or being a higher being - she chooses the higher being, she believes
this is the selfless choice.
The only choice in all this that was forced on Cordelia per se
was the initial kiss. A sexual kiss between Cordelia and Doyle
before he sacrificed himself.
Buffy - did Buffy choose to be the slayer and get the power?
No. She was selected. She chooses to use the power for good -
which is a choice as is demonstrated by Faith who chose not to.
Buffy chooses to go through the portal to the shadow world of
the past and commune with the Shadow Men.
She does NOT however choose to be imbued with more power.
She came into that world seeking knowledge - all they can give
her is power. When she refuses - they chain her to a wall and
attempt to force it on her a la the Watcher's Council in both
Helpless and Checkpoint. (In both those episodes the Watchers
forced or attempted to force their will on Buffy and in both cases,
Buffy rejected them. Oddly enough in one, Helpless, they take
away her power and in the other Checkpoint they are threatened
by it.) Buffy fights them off and rejects the power of the demon
- choosing just the knowledge - any that they may have, they give
her a nightmare vision.
Angel/Angelus - Angelus never chooses his soul - this is something
that is forced on him by women - gypsies. In the Gypsy Curse in
1898 by the old Romanian woman gypsey after he rapes and murders
he granddaughter. In the curse used by Willow in Becoming. He
doesn't want it - as he demonstrates by killing Jenny in Passion
while she attempts to imbue him with a soul. Smashing the orb
that is supposed to assist in this. Angelus does not want to be
violated in this way and does consider it a violation. The soul
that enters Angelus is white but smokey just like the demon soul
the Shadowmen try to force into Buffy.
In Awakenings - Angel is given a choice. Give up your soul for
a brief period so we can obtain knowledge. He doesn't give it
up for power - he gives it up for knowledge. According to Cordy
- Angelus knows more about the Beast than Angel does. They need
knowledge. So he allows himself to be violated by the shaman (or
is this a Shadowman too?
Getting lost on the PC terminology which is usually why I ignore
it.) Loses his soul. And becomes Angelus.
The time he lost his soul before was accidental - not unlike Cordy
who gets' Doyle's vision with a kiss. Buffy did not intend to
take Angel's soul any more than Doyle intended to necessarily
give Cordy his gift.
Spike - Spike unlike Angelus, does choose to have his vampire
body imbued with a soul. He fights for this soul.
It is NOT forced on him in any way. In some respects Spike's journey
and fight for a soul is similar to Cordelia's journey in Birthday.
And both choose the gift out of love for another - in Cordy's
case - Angel and in Spike's case - Buffy. Cordy's choice seems
from the outset to be positive, Spike's is a painful one, burning
him, driving him nutty and does not appear positive at first yet
gradually may turn so, while Cordy's seems to be gradually turning
negative.
Willow - Willow also has chosen to be imbued with power - from
the text. She like Spike goes after it. She chooses it.
It is not forced on her - like it is forced on Buffy.
But neither is it offered to her like Cordelia - nor has she necessarily
journeyed far for it or fought trials like Spike. Willow pulls
her power from knowledge. She finds it from knowledge. (Though
you could say Spike does the same when he hunted the legend.)
Seems to me that each of these characters choices depend on their
individual desire for either knowledge or power.
Soul (Human) = knowledge and potentially power (although the vampire
seems to be weakened by it)
Soul (demon)= power and potentially knowledge (although the human
seems less interested in sharing it or does it with evil intent.)
The dualities interest me.
Can we have power without the knowledge to wield it?
Does that only result in chaos? And what good is knowledge with
no power? Is it better to integrate the dark power of the demon
with the light knowledge of the human soul?
Don't know. May be confusing the issue and everyone else as well.
SK
A Theory on
Cordy -- maddog, 10:37:41 02/19/03 Wed
Don't shoot the reader, ie me, if this concept has been brought
up but I haven't had a chance to read the board every day.
I'm typing away defending the decision Cordy made and comparing
it to the decision Buffy didn't make in last night's episode and
it hit me....the decision Cordy made. She's part demon...she chose
to be part demon. Could this be her link to whoever's controlling
the beast? Could this have either turned her evil or split her
personality so it's controling the demon side of her. I can't
believe it took me a whole week to remember she's part demon.
Hmm, talk about a courageous decision coming back and biting you
in the ass. :)
[> See my post directly
below. ("Great minds warp along the same curve")
-- cjl, 10:51:54 02/19/03 Wed
[> Re: A Theory on Cordy
-- BD23, 11:30:49 02/19/03 Wed
Personally, I think she just doesn't like Lilah (JK). I'm wondering
if we haven't had the REAL Cordy all season--certainly explain
the yucky Connor incident. Anyway, I also haven't been to the
board in a while, so I may be repeating a weeks old concept.
Is Kennedy
Faith 2.0? -- Majin Gojira, 10:45:46 02/19/03 Wed
We've only seen a little of Kennedy, I've noticed several character
traits that Proto-Evil Faith had.
1. Arrogance - Both Early Faith and Kennedy were/are arrogant.
they had power, they knew it, and they loved it. Kennedy recieved
a backlash for it this week in Chloe's death, Faith had Allan
Finch. If Kennedy does not change because of what happened, expect
a Faith-like Fall.
2. Dominance - Both want to be controling/dominant. in relationships
and in other things. Notice the forceful/direct nature of Kennedy's
approaches to Willow. And we all know about Faith and Sex.
These are the major two that I've noticed, and they seem to be
some of their more defining traits at that point in time. Doubtless
I missed a few, if anyone wants to add or comment, feel free.
[> Re: Is Kennedy Faith
2.0? -- seven, 11:06:56 02/19/03 Wed
I see where you're going with this.
Kennedy is so gunn-ho about being a good guy and a fighter that
she isn't going to see the darkness when it creeps upon her. I
definatly see traitor potential brewing.
[> [> Let's see, ME is
going to make Willow's lesbian lover a traitor? -- Dochawk,
21:01:56 02/19/03 Wed
That is one story line that just aint going to happen. In some
ways sad that they can't do it, but Kennedy can't become a traitor
and really can't go bad as long as she is Willow's companion.
Did the "evil lesbian thing", got people who ME care's
about too upset, not gonna do it again. And the point of the quotes
was, I don't think it was the evil lesbian thing, nor do most
people who watch the show, but some people did and that was enough
for ME.
[> Re: Is Kennedy Faith
2.0? -- Gyrus, 11:09:34 02/19/03 Wed
I've had this very same thought about the similarities between
Kennedy and Faith. However, Kennedy has one important trait that
Faith lacked -- the capacity for trust. To trust requires the
belief that at least some people are trustworthy, and Faith's
downfall was that she never believed that (at least until "Who
Are You"). Faith justified her own bad behavior by believing
that, deep down, everyone else was as bad as she was. In fact,
much of her struggle with Buffy in S3 had to do with Faith's need
to bring Buffy down to her level, to prove to herself that Buffy's
nobility and selflessness were just a facade. Kennedy, on the
other hand, seems to believe that Willow, at least, is genuinely
good, so it doesn't seem like she has those issues.
[> Re: Is Kennedy Faith
2.0? -- Mystery, 11:11:02 02/19/03 Wed
I've always thought that Kennedy was Faith only from money. She
doesn't have any of Faith's street-smarts/attitude. Kennedy actually
reminds me of the girls I met in college who thought they were
tough because they're from Long Island and went into the city
once a month (I'm from inner city Boston). They had a lot of bravado
and arrogance, but turns out there were never in a real fight
ever. Then ME went and confirmed that Kennedy had a home with
wings and a summer home in the Hamptons.
But yeah, Kennedy is much like Faith, only with rich parents.
BTW, just in case anyone wants to know what kind of a geek I am...I
am convinced that Faith is from Dorchester (a section of Boston),
more accurately around the Fields Corner area. The reason I think
this is because, she mentions South Boston specifically, which
would make you think she's from there, BUT she also talks about
a quarry. I think that she's referring to the Quincy Quarry, which
was well known for kids jumping off the high rock into the water
and getting swept off by the currents. They drained the quarry
about 5 years ago, but it would have given Faith a chance to leap
off it. Fields Corner is sort of a halfway point between Southie
(what Bostonians call South Boston) and the Quincy Quarries. Plus,
the neighborhood fits with Faith's personality.
Yeah, I thought WAAAAAAY too much about that...if anyone's interested:
http://www.mbta.com/traveling_t/schedules_subway_redline.as
Field's Corner is one of the stops on the redline...
[> [> Re: Is Kennedy
Faith 2.0? -- BD23, 11:22:10 02/19/03 Wed
Maybe S3 is too much a faint memory, but I don't see the tie-in.
I'll look for it, though. Kennedy certainly has arrogance, but
Faith's arrogance hid an internal neediness that seems absent
in Kennedy.
[> [> [> Re: Is Kennedy
Faith 2.0? -- Miss Edith, 11:32:34 02/19/03 Wed
Faith was played by an excellent actress. I could always see the
vunerabilites of the character underneath her defensive attitude.
Whereas Kennedy just seems to be arrogant and not give much thought
to others so we don't see much to connect with. The way she gets
off on dictating the Slayers in training was a little bit scary.
I could see Kennedy becoming evil, but I doubt the storyline could
be pulled off with anything like the interest that I had in Faith's
journey. Kennedy comes across as a playground bully, and gives
me nothing to latch on too. I could sympathise with Fatih in episodes
like Revelations when she was insecure about her place in the
gang. Her tough attitude was clearly a facade. I get the impression
from Kennedy that she really does think that highly of herself.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Is Kennedy Faith 2.0?(Spoilers and well known casting spoiler)
-- Jaques Regnier, 12:12:34 02/19/03 Wed
Dealing with the trust issues. Other than Will who does she trust?
Buffy, not really. Only herself and after Willow sucked her lifeforce
in GID well I saw some fear and lack of trust at the end. Heres
hoping The coming of faith will show a definite comparison.
[> [> [> Re: Is Kennedy
Faith 2.0?--I don't think so. -- Arethusa, 16:08:26 02/19/03
Wed
I agree. Faith had a drunken neglectful mother and no father we
know of. Kennedy has the self-seteem and confidence of someone
who has been brought up by loving, attentive parents. Kennedy
is capable of giving-Faith knew only how to take.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Is Kennedy Faith 2.0?--I don't think so. -- WickedBuffy, 21:32:30
02/19/03 Wed
Count me in on that feeling, too. Kennedy seems eager and idealistic,
and as you said, she came from a very different background and
seems to be capable of giving. (not that her background was the
only reason for that, it's innate, too.)
Kennedy is young and rash. But it's the rash of the young. (no
ointment needed). She works hard and in her training since she
was young experienced fighting and probably some physical pain.
That isn't completely new to her. But magic *is* new to her, all
she has is her fairytale ideas about it. When she finally saw
Willows magic, and felt it on an intense level, it shook her up.
Because it was new and very different than what she expected.
I think she's just on a learning curve. She does appear to have
courage and so far, self-determination. But not thebrickwall of
emotional defenses that Faith has/had or the relationship hangups.
She's probably a Leo. Faith is probably a Scor ...... OOPS! }:>
::ducking::
[> Re: Is Kennedy Faith
2.0? (Spoilers Buffy up to 7.15, Angel s1) -- grifter, 11:22:47
02/19/03 Wed
Could Willow be Kennedy´s Angel?
Faith is attracted to Angel´s dark side, just like Kennedy
was turned on just a little bit by "Evil Willow". After
"Get it Done" she recognized that it "wasn´t
cool, it just hurt".
Angel tried to show Faith where her abuse of power will ultimately
lead her in season 3. He suceeded, about a year later in Angel
season 1. I think Willow has shown Kennedy exactly that in "Get
it Done".
When Kennedy first arrived people started complaining that she
was "little Miss Perfect" ("Mary Sue" is the
term?). Well, wasn´t that exactly what Faith appeared to
be when she first arrived? Stealing the show from Buffy, being
everybody´s darling. Of course, in that very episode we
saw that she was, in fact, not perfect, just like we have witnessed
with Kennedy.
Besides that, Faith and Kennedy kinda look alike. "Tough
but hot kick-ass brunette".
[> [> Re: Is Kennedy
Faith 2.0? (Spoilers Buffy up to 7.15, Angel s1) -- Mystery,
11:56:33 02/19/03 Wed
Actually, I kind of think Kennedy looks a little more like Jenny
Calendar. :-)
[> I see more Buffy than
Faith in Kennedy (spoilers) -- Scroll, 12:36:57 02/19/03
Wed
Faith is more overtly sexual than Kennedy. I would even go so
far as to say Kennedy's pushiness in regards to Willow to be more
similar to early Buffy's pushiness with Angel.
Kennedy's drill-sergeant routine is more Buffy's style than Faith's.
Kennedy has been taking her cue from Buffy. She trusts Buffy to
be The Slayer, the one with the knowledge and experience. But
when Buffy attacks Willow, Kennedy defends her new girlfriend.
OTOH, I do see Kennedy's enjoyment of power -- I won't say she
craves power or loves it -- is similar to early Faith's. They
just thought their powers were neat. Something fun to be used.
They were naive and underestimated the responsibility that came
with power. They didn't understand the drawbacks. After Finch,
Faith went on to become evil. But after Willow sucked her dry,
I think Kennedy is going to take a step back and really consider
whether power is all that it's cracked up to be. After all, Kennedy
herself said Willow was the most powerful one in their group --
and look what Willow did to her. No, I think Kennedy has learned
something from "Get It Done" and will be toning down
her attitude in the future.
[> [> Re: I see more
Buffy than Faith in Kennedy (spoilers) -- DEN, 13:19:35
02/19/03 Wed
Kennedy was shaken by her experience, and Willow's matter-of-fact
"it's what I do," to a point where I would not be surprised
to see the 'ship cool or terminate.
[> [> [> All this
is convincing me of the truth of my own belief -- KdS, 13:33:17
02/19/03 Wed
Willow doesn't need some pampered little upper-class girl who
likes flirting with the Dark Side. She needs a real woman who
knows what it's really like to succumb to your inner darkness
and painfully claw your way out of it. Hint.
[> [> [> [> Stop
it, KdS. You've got me drooling here.... (well-known slashfic/casting
spoiler above) -- cjl, 13:47:35 02/19/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
I don't read slash/fic but Faith/Willow is drool worthy
-- Dochawk, 21:04:12 02/19/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Which
one? -- Shiraz, 13:48:53 02/19/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> We
really do read the same slashfic, KdS! -- Masq, 13:57:18
02/19/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> I'd
rather see some Faith/Gwen action myself...mmmm...Leather....
-- Majin Gojira, 14:44:48 02/19/03 Wed
"Get
it Done": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (The Pervy
Wood AND Spike Fancier), 12:14:00 02/19/03 Wed
Mood: perky! Ooh, so much evilness this week. So much toothsome,
gruesome evilness, along with a good dollop of emotional bloodletting.
Plus, Wood. Robin, Robin, you and I simply must have a long weekend
sometime very soon!
On to the review!
Fashion Statements
The Good
Loved all the pajamas, of course. Must bug Insignificant Alter-Ego
into buying me more.
Buffy's right; Wood is one snappy dresser. And a cool and sexy
vampire killer. Too bad about those prejudices, but the clothes
more than make up for it.
Wood in casual clothes again. Now, can we please dispense with
the shirt?
Dawn's "D" t-shirt. Beautiful color on her (brought
out her eyes), and it really showed off her figure.
Kennedy again makes a correct fashion choice: that dark burgundy
was absolutely perfect. She should wear it all the time. Loved
the pants, too.
Spike, back in his leather duster. 'Bout time!
The Bad
Vi's clothes continue to appall. Matching bright orange and obnoxious
pink only compounds the fashion tragedy.
Workout gear does nothing for me, particularly when it's on scrawny
teenage bodies.
Willow's shirt was loathsome. About the only positive thing that
can be said for it is that the color was good for Willow. Other
than that, nothing.
Anya's sweater set was one even my Super-Prissy Alter-Ego's maternal
unit would have turned her nose up at.
Strongly disapproved of all the denim jackets.
Buffy's entire ensemble. The denim jacket, the weird tiered skirt,
and the boots all shouted either, "Thanks for the Country
Music Award!" or, "Welcome to the '80s!" to me.
Possibly both.
The Iffy
No iffy this week. We were stuck on either "bad" or
"good".
Plot in a Nutshell
Wood gets introduced to the gang, leading to a pissing contest
with Spike that was frankly yummy. The herd gets thinned a bit
when one of the Potentials offs herself. This leads to more Buffy
speechifying and then hurling herself headlong into a portal.
This leads to Spike and Willow getting down with their dark sides
to bring her back. A good time was had by all!
Demonic Quibbles and Comments
Loved the reference to Almighty Grothnar. A vengeance demon of
Anya's era would certainly know his legend. For those of you who
don't, allow me to enlighten you:
Grothnar kept herds of pigs near Babylon. One day, a neighboring
herdsman, Ipthar, stole Grothnar's prize sow. Grothnar confronted
his neighbor, asking for the return of his sow. Ipthar protested
his innocence, saying the wolves must have dragged off the sow,
but Grothnar knew better. He called upon the powers of darkness,
and that night, the wolves came out of the hills and tore Ipthar
and his entire family to pieces inside their house. The dark gods
were so impressed that they elevated Grothnar to demonhood, and
a few centuries later, after ruthlessly working his way down the
Lowerarchy, Grothnar raised D'Hoffryn to demonhood and mentored
him until D'Hoffryn finally murdered him in a glorious display
of treachery. Isn't that an inspiring story?
Body Count
One mewling Potential
One hurking big demon
Highlights
Wood vs. Spike. I had to take a blood bath to cool down after
each one of their encounters. Please, I want more!
Kennedy playing sergeant major. I'd love her job, too, except
for the sweatsuits.
Chloe hanging from the ceiling. Reminds me of the decorations
at my last party.
Buffy ripping into everyone, especially Spike. Just satisfying,
you know?
Willow going all black-eyed and sucking the life from her new
girl-toy. Yes!
Spike getting his Bad on again. Just fun to watch. Loved the demon
fight, with the leather coat and the vamp face and the attitude
and the cigarette afterward. Ye unholy gods, I've missed the boy!
Wood fighting. Sexy!
The final scene of the Turok-han army. Really reminds me
of the last party I threw.
Lowlights
Andrew. Please, please, somebody kill him!
More Buffy speechifying. Somebody tell the girl: less talk, more
action, better clothes.
Can't decide if Buffy turning down the demon energy is good or
bad. I mean, on one side, I'd love to see her become Super-Bad
Buffy. On the other, turning down the energy might just get her
killed, and there's no bad there.
Burning Questions
Where the hell was Giles? Not picking up more Potentials, I hope.
Why did Wood go back to the school?
How did the leather duster get from Buffy's house in "Seeing
Red" to the basement of the school?
Is anybody in Sunnydale Getting Any? Spike turns Anya down, Kennedy
sends Willow packing--where's the sex this season?
The Immoral of the Story
Knowledge isn't power. Power is power.
Overall Rating
This was a good 'un. I'll give it a full p/q over deep red on
the Non Sequitur Scale. Only Giles could've improved it.
[> Re: "Get it Done":
The Super-Evil Review -- Vyrus, 12:27:33 02/19/03 Wed
>Vi's clothes continue to appall. Matching bright orange and
obnoxious pink only compounds the fashion tragedy.
It is indeed fortunate that vampires are attracted to bright colors.
>The dark gods were so impressed that they elevated Grothnar
to demonhood, and a few centuries later, after ruthlessly working
his way down the Lowerarchy, Grothnar raised D'Hoffryn to demonhood
and mentored him until D'Hoffryn finally murdered him in a glorious
display of treachery. Isn't that an inspiring story?
Sniff...it's just like me and my dad...
>Wood vs. Spike. I had to take a blood bath to cool down after
each one of their encounters.
You really ought to cut down. Why do you think the Master had
such skin problems?
>The final scene of the Turok-han army. Really reminds me of
the last party I threw.
As I recall, one of them ripped my head off while I was tapping
the keg. Thank Hell you had all that packing tape.
>Knowledge isn't power. Power is power.
Yes, but I can never remember where the money and the women fit
in.
[> [> Re: "Get it
Done": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (The Hostess
With The Mostest), 13:39:53 02/19/03 Wed
>Vi's clothes continue to appall. Matching bright orange
and obnoxious pink only compounds the fashion tragedy.
It is indeed fortunate that vampires are attracted to bright colors.
Would that it were so. Unfortunately, that's just an old succubi's
tale. However, she does make herself a moving target for the Bringers.
Even *they* could see that getup.
>The dark gods were so impressed that they elevated Grothnar
to demonhood, and a few centuries later, after ruthlessly working
his way down the Lowerarchy, Grothnar raised D'Hoffryn to demonhood
and mentored him until D'Hoffryn finally murdered him in a glorious
display of treachery. Isn't that an inspiring story?
Sniff...it's just like me and my dad...
Yeah, I kinda miss the old demon lord. What hell did you put him
in, anyway?
>Wood vs. Spike. I had to take a blood bath to cool down
after each one of their encounters.
You really ought to cut down. Why do you think the Master had
such skin problems?
I know, I know, but I couldn't help it. Maybe continued exposure
will lessen the impact. Hm. Must go watch their scenes again.
>The final scene of the Turok-han army. Really reminds me
of the last party I threw.
As I recall, one of them ripped my head off while I was tapping
the keg. Thank Hell you had all that packing tape.
Hee! That was quite the soiree, wasn't it? Good thing we can laugh
about it now--well, at least, I can laugh about it now. Come now,
you've got to admit the spontaneous game of "volley-head"
that erupted was quite fun, especially with your headless body
scrambling around, trying to retrieve your head. Sophomorica was
in stitches. Took me two days to get all those knots untied.
>Knowledge isn't power. Power is power.
Yes, but I can never remember where the money and the women fit
in.
Anywhere you can fit them, my dear fiend, anywhere you can fit
them.
[> [> [> Re: "Get
it Done": The Super-Evil Review -- Vyrus (the Guestest
with the Bestest), 14:46:48 02/19/03 Wed
Yeah, I kinda miss the old demon lord. What hell did you put
him in, anyway?
You know those little bottles that Starbucks Frappucinos come
in? Sixty-three of those.
I learned my lesson there: Promises to beat someone to a bloody
pulp shouldn't be meant literally.
>As I recall, one of them ripped my head off while I was
tapping the keg. Thank Hell you had all that packing tape.
Hee! That was quite the soiree, wasn't it? Good thing we can laugh
about it now--well, at least, I can laugh about it now.
I might laugh about it too, if my vocal cords were all still attached
properly and my laughter didn't consistently attract libidinous
male Howler demons.
Come now, you've got to admit the spontaneous game of "volley-head"
that erupted was quite fun, especially with your headless body
scrambling around, trying to retrieve your head.
Which I might never have managed if my head hadn't bitten Orgoth
the Putrid's wrist and held on until I came for it. It took a
gallon of Listerine to get THAT taste out of my mouth.
I had a wonderful time, nonetheless. Your hors d'oeuvres are the
squirmiest I've ever had, and your friend Ghidrina is a wonderful
conversationalist -- especially the left and middle heads.
[> Fashion flashback
-- ponygoyle, 12:41:47 02/19/03 Wed
Wasn't it thoughtful of the First to appear, not as Chloe in cute
pjs, but with that t-shirt that we all loved so well? One last
taste of fashion horror to send Chloe off to the grave. The First
shows no fashion mercy even in death!
[> Re: "Get it Done":
The Super-Evil Review -- not neaux, 12:50:49 02/19/03 Wed
Hey.. nothing to say about Andrew's Kitchen mitts??
[> Humbly Seeking Enlightenment
-- Whipwoman, 13:03:41 02/19/03 Wed
Well, not really. Just a question--was it my reception or was
that shirt Wood had on in Buffy's office pink? MMMMmmmm, yummy.
SSSSsssssssnnnnnnaaaaaP!
[> Answers to burning questions.
-- Saguaro Stalker, 13:10:06 02/19/03 Wed
Where the hell was Giles? Not picking up more Potentials, I hope.-
Actually, I think he was at the local Home Depot finding out how
to do-it-yourself the Summer's basement into Sunnydale's largest
and highest capacity 'powder' room. Too many potentials getting
are picked off on the hike to the gas station.
Why did Wood go back to the school? - He wanted to borrow Spike's
jacket? He left his favorite earring in Buffy's office? I could
suggest something else, but one bathroom joke a week is enough.
How did the leather duster get from Buffy's house in "Seeing
Red" to the basement of the school? Someone kipnapped it
to use in a diabolic sacrifice to raise a jacket from hell for
the next Turok-Han.
Is anybody in Sunnydale Getting Any? Spike turns Anya down, Kennedy
sends Willow packing--where's the sex this season?
- I think that's the First's evil plan, to drive all the sex out
of Sunnydale. Which is why Cordy went nuts in L.A. and why the
demon flew up Buffy's skirt in ancient-Swahili-land. There's just
not enough space in the the rest of the Buffyverse to contain
all that energy.
[> [> Re: Answers to
burning questions. -- luna, 18:27:50 02/19/03 Wed
Someone kipnapped it to use in a diabolic sacrifice to raise
a jacket from hell for the next Turok-Han.
Already had one in Him (though guy wearing it didn't LOOK like
a Turok-Han at the time).
[> "Get it Done":
The Evil Interior Design Review -- Pushy Queen of Slut Town,
19:34:53 02/19/03 Wed
Honorificus, you've stuck the heart again! Fantastic review. So
sorry I missed your review last week. My alter ego has devised
a new torture for me. He's actually paying someone called a "personal
trainer" to inflict massive amounts of pain on us four nights
a week. Normally, I enjoy torture, but its rare that I'm on the
receiving end of the fun. Grr. Just let me get my hands on that
musclebound meathead.
Minor point to add to the Demonic quibbles. The essense and heart
of the demon should have been, from my experience, not so much
misty snake and more like smoky centipede. It crawls through the
air with a million fanged arms that lock on to you like a bulldog's
bite. What kind of wimpy lesser demon did they extract that essense
from? Probably just someone's minion.
And did anyone else think that the "demon" that entered
into Sunnydale wasn't a demon at all, but rather a fictional Oruk-Hai
from that wretched "Lord of the Rings" movie?
Now on the the decor.
Highlights
The cave of the shadow men. The spiraling floor pattern and rhythmic
tribal drums were very Tim Burton/Danny Elfman. Just add a tuba
and the effect would have been complete. Always wanted to theme
a room in my own cave like that, complete with slayer girl chained
to the floor. It was minimalist without that annoying white and
metallic scuplture.
The dimension beyond the Seal of Danzathar. So many Turak-han
heaving and feeling the lust of war. Catch me, I may swoon. Why
bother with the fancier devices of torture and composition when
so much sheer chaos is simmering just below the boiling point.
Lowlights
The Summers home. As usual. Why, I'll bet that the Carpenter even
repairs the nifty new hole between levels. It would be a lot more
interesting if they left it open and installed a fireman's pole
for quick access. Then the wanna-be-slayers could take turns shouting
"to the batcave, Vi!" and sliding down the pole.
Also, showing Buffy's cursed taste in lair flair once again, she
cut down the most interesting piece of furniture ever found in
the Summers home. Why, I decorate all my best dungeon cells with
the dangling corpse of suicide victim.
** Since I was unavailable last week, I do want to add that Principal
Wood's bathroom was positively atrocious. How would anyone be
able to reguritate their young in a room so clean and... blue?
Even by Buffy standards (the lowest of the low) the room was unappealing
and just screamed "B-A-C-H-E-L-O-R"
The Iffy
The Summers back yard. On one hand, it's very green and filled
with wanna-be-army-brats. On the other hand, it has two unmarked
fresh graves. Buffy's speechifying gave me hope that she might
actually get more slayerettes to off themselves and populate that
backyard with the dead. I fail to understand, however, why she
buried the bodies at all? Was it to rot the meat faster? With
so very many mouths to feed in that house off Xander and Buffy's
combined salaries, they surely wouldn't let that much meat go
to waste.
Sex and Pain
I retract what I said earlier about Kennedy being almost do-able.
If she was turned off by a little life-force sucking, than she's
too sqeamish for my taste.
Hopefully Spike's soul-colonic demon killing will restore his
libido. Then he and Anya can revisit that interesting discussion
on bones.
Somebody, please, sleep with someone else. I'm willing to take
anything here. Let Andrew get boinked by the Chinese slayerette
(just think of all the weeping that could cause - she believes
she's a mail-order bride, he realizes she's not Warren...). And
when I say sleep with someone, not in that cuddly puppy slayers
piled on top of each other way. Someone was recently going off
about how they missed the puppy cuddling of old BtVS days. Well,
you've got your dog-piles in the pound. Happy now?
The aforementioned dimension beyond the Seal of Danzathar. Now,
that's what I'm talking about. It's orgy time.
Proclamation
We, the Pushy Queen of Slut Town, Heir to Reign of Anal Beads
and Whipping Cream (means something else entirely in my dimension),
do hereby declare Spike's Duster an inter-dimensional heirloom
and historic aphrodisiac. Ripped from the back of a dead slayer
and posessing more mojo than that twerp Austin Powers could ever
dream of, we hereby recognize it as a symbol for pain, violence
and sex in all colonized dimensions which do homage to us.
[> [> As usual, PQ, you
hit the heart and rip it right out. -- Honorificus (The Sweet,
Yet Not Sticky One), 20:14:42 02/19/03 Wed
So much evilness in your review! Among the highlights:
I, too, want a room like the shadowmen's, complete with a girl
chained to the floor. Or a very well-built man, whichever. Must
speak with my interior decorater about that.
Also, showing Buffy's cursed taste in lair flair once again,
she cut down the most interesting piece of furniture ever found
in the Summers home.
I know! The girl simply has no sense of style. Besides, if she
really was wanting to impress upon the other girls what would
happen if they listen to the First, one would think that would've
been quite the object lesson.
As for the burial, most modern humans have this odd prejudice
against cannibalism. Considering how frequently they kill each
other off, one would think it's rather a wasteful eccentricity.
Ah, well. Leaves more for the rest of us.
I retract what I said earlier about Kennedy being almost do-able.
If she was turned off by a little life-force sucking, than she's
too sqeamish for my taste.
Again, I'm completely with you. I, for one, won't countenance
a lover who won't let me do at least a little brain-sucking. These
silly humans just don't know what they're missing.
Somebody needs to have sex fast in Sunnydale. All that hormonal
energy is only feeding the Hellmouth and leading up to the destruction
of the Earth, which I don't want. The destruction of humanity
is just fine (though that would deprive one of some fine snacks
and slaves), but Earth could be made livable were it returned
to its chaotic state. Those were the good old days.
Thank you, darling. I do hope your alter-ego decides to give up
on his New Year's Resolution and ditch the meathead.
[> I ask, and she giveth.
Truly Honorificus is good to her minions -- Helen, 00:57:22
02/20/03 Thu
Your super nice alter ego told me not to grovel to you, but she
is tainted with humanity and not to be listened to.
[> LOL @ 'really showed
off her figure' -- CaptainPugwash, 07:55:35 02/20/03 Thu
Thank whoever that yer a woman (?); the male equivalent of that
would been lots of drooling noises...
Yeah yeah - spare me the lecture etc. However, if I shouldn't
be lusting after MT, then don't make her wear a baby tee and tight
fitting black trousers?!
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