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BtVS Season 8 idea based on well-known casting spoiler and loads o' speculation -- Solitude1056, 15:41:49 02/16/03 Sun

According to some hard-to-miss "next week on Angel" promos, as well as some noise here on the boards, Faith is making a return. Additionally, Eliza Dushku may possibly have signed a one or two year contract to play Faith in another BtVS spin-off. So this is my speculation: what if it's Wood who's being groomed to be the next Watcher? There were two comments Wood made that make me think this might be something ME is keeping open as an option.

First, Wood specifically mentions being raised by a Watcher. The Tales of the Slayers book (which I've yet to read) may mention Nikki and her common-law husband, but Wood doesn't say the expected, "and I was raised by my father." Why? What's the point in us thinking he's used to the information & knowledge a slayer would know (if lacking the superstrength and healing), unless it's to prepare us for the idea that Wood could act as a capable and competent watcher?

Second, Wood specifically mentions he went a little overboard in his twenties, killing anything and everything that he could while trying to track down his mother's killer. Meanwhile, Spike was bragging about his "kills," so doubtless someone in the Council would eventually have heard that Nikki was killed by Spike. So either Wood's watcher just conveniently dropped out of the grapevine shortly after Nikki died, Wood was raised with limited information about the Council, or, uh, ME is playing with the details so a new plot twist (or character mesh) won't be unexpected.

Personally, I think Wood's vengeance decade was mentioned so that when he and Faith meet up, their ability to see eye-to-eye won't be unexpected - plus it may create yet another dose of Faith/Buffy jealousy that leads to the conflict we all know and sometimes love... as long as David Fury's not writing it, that is.

Marginally tangential: someone mentioned that in the Tales of the Slayer, Nikki's husband is Asian. I suppose it was simply a lucky break that the actor playing Wood also has such gorgeous almond eyes, which might appear to be the result of some Asian ethnicity.
[> Zach's Season 8 theory... (speculative & yeah probably spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 16:45:11 02/16/03 Sun

This is what we know:

1. Nicholas Brendon and James Marsters have both indicated publicly that they'd entertain the notion of continuing post SMG. However, they've also each indicated publicly that they would not. This is largely up to their agents I imagine. If they can get cut a good deal, they'll stay. My guess is ultimately it'll come down to money.
2. Anthony Stewart Head has made it clear he wants to do less commuting from Great Britain to Los Angeles. He wants to be with his family, but is not adverse to reprising the role of Giles provided he can do so on the other side of The Pond.
3. Emma Caulfield has made it very clear this is to be her last season. She's compared her tenure on Buffy akin to high school, and she's had "senioritis" for at least a year now. It's time to move on.
4. Sarah Michelle Gellar probably won't return in a permanent capacity. I've yet to hear her make any official statement, but the winds of change are prominent. I doubt they'll kill her character off, but having her just walk off into the sunset seems kinda anti-climactic. Besides they've already killed her off three times. The end of Buffy will have to be something more permanent, yet something cyclical.
5. Eliza Dushku, according to unsubstantiated reports, has been tapped as a possibility for returning as Faith in season eight, if there is to be one. She hasn't officially said yes or no either way. IF she says yes, everything below this line is not very relevant. It'll be called "FAITH THE VAMPIRE SLAYER" and God help us all. First time Dushku gets a movie contract we'll be doing this all over again.
6. Alyson Hannigan is completely up for grabs at this point. I've heard nothing substantial one way or the other regarding her. I'm guessing she'd stay, but only if she's given some definite meat as an actress, and if Whedon doesn't stray.
7. What else are Michelle Trachtenberg, DB Woodside, Tom Lenk, Danny Strong and Elizabeth Anne Allen gonna do? I mean let's face it. It's a steady paycheck. The alternative for them is less certain than getting the greenlight on a new series.

So this is how I see it and I've been wrong before so take it with a grain of salt as usual.

I anticipate two spinoffs next year. RIPPER and something I like to call REMNANTS although it'll probably be called something stupid like FAITH THE VAMPIRE SLAYER I'd rather just call it REMNANTS thank you very much.

RIPPER: Alyson Hannigan and Anthony Stewart Head. I like their chemistry on screen. There's both conflict and camaraderie going on between their two characters. Granted, it means Hannigan will be commuting between England and California in order to see her beaux over on Angel, but I don't anticipate RIPPER taking much time to make. If Whedon holds true to his original idea of making a programme for the BBC based on Giles' character, it'd probably be about half the amount of episodes commonly seen in the States. Sorta like a mini-series from an American perspective. It'd be more ghost-hunter oriented. I think Giles & Willow together hunting ghosts would be kickass on either side of The Pond. So I'm going with that.

REMNANTS:

"Into every generation there was a Chosen One. She alone stood against the vampires the demons and the forces of darkness. She was the Slayer. She is no more.

"In her wake were the ramifications of the destruction and rebirth that she left behind. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes, the hope and deliverance she instilled within those about her are rekindled once more.

"The Loyal (Xander). The Witch (Amy). The son of a Slayer (Wood) and a magically sired genetically identical sister of another Slayer (Dawn) who is starting to occasionally glow green. The Undead One (Spike). The Not Quite So Undead One (Jonathan). Oh. And uh. Andrew.

"They alone are all that now stand between Mankind and the forces of evil. They are The Remnants."

Hey. At the very least. It'd make for some kickbutt fan fiction. Would you prefer they called the new show "The Scoobies?" I like Remnants better. This avoids naming the show after a specific character, which is what got them into this pickle in the first place. Had the show not originally been called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" then they wouldn't have to worry about this at all, they could just continue on without ending one series and starting another.

At the end of season seven, I suspect Anyanka will die sacrificing herself to save Xander. I predict Buffy will close the Hellmouth, but in so doing will disappear and seem to be lost between dimensions. Perhaps she'll end up taking the place of The Master as a stop plug keeping the Hellmouth closed permanently, so long as she never escapes. In the process of closing the Hellmouth once and for all, the Scoobies *ahem* the REMNANTS will face a most devastating battle which will cause Sunnydale to burn like fallen Rome. It'll look spectacular but will mean the writers can't use Sunnydale as a backdrop in season eight/season one of the new show. Faith will arrive, and will also die (either permanently or later we'll learn only temporarily) during the battle, as will all the Slayers in Training. The Slayer Line will be irrevocably OVER.

This HAS to happen. The Slayer Line was the guiding force behind Buffy the Vampire Slayer. To keep the Slayer line going without keeping the original tv series going is going to be very very anticlimactic, and the new series needs a new calling. A new charter. A new guiding force that drives it forward.

So the new series will start anew. They successfully put an end to evil in Sunnydale, having lost Sunnydale in the process, but learn that there are greater evils in other parts of the world and so the gang will over the summer be scattered across the world, either fighting evil each in their own way or just running away from such responsibility and trying to put the pain and sadness of their mutual pasts behind them, but come the beginning of the new series they're brought together to face a greater evil, and after vanquishing that will decide due to their history together and their success as a team, to join forces and seek out other evil hotspots to overthrow.

Jumping the shark? Maybe, but Buffy jumped the shark since her inception so I don't see how that could stop them. It's gonna be a helluva ride.
[> [> It isn't just the name in the title. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:12:55 02/16/03 Sun

Buffy is in almost every scene of almost every episode. The show revolves around her to such an extent that, even if her name wasn't in the title, continuing it without her would probably still have to constitute a spinoff.
[> Re: BtVS Season 8 idea based on well-known casting spoiler and loads o' speculation -- Traveler, 16:55:09 02/16/03 Sun

I thought the whole Watcher story was to make Wood a foil for Spike as well as explain where he got his information and all those nifty fighting moves. I'm not sure that Faith really needs a Watcher anymore than Angel or Buffy do now.
[> Wood's heritage (spoilers for Tales of the Slayer) -- KdS, 03:27:31 02/17/03 Mon

In the Nicki story in Tales of the Slayer - it's not clear if Li is Nicki's husband - Nicki refers to him as "my man" which may mean something less formal. Also there's no sign of or reference to a child in the story (and Nicki's lifestyle doesn't suggest that she's bringing one up), and Li is killed during the course of it.
Spike and Andrew (spoilers through First Date) -- Oyceter, 22:42:00 02/16/03 Sun

Been lurking on the board for a while now, and I've read several threads comparing Spike and Andrew. It seems like ME was continuing this parallel with First Date, especially in the redemption stories of both Andrew and Spike.

Spike so far has been dechipped, with Buffy expressing her trust in him, and has yet to prove himself under fire (manipulation of the FE), while Andrew has in a way been dechipped, now that he's untied and out of the chair. And though much of this freeing of Andrew has come about simply because he's been so annoying, in FD it seems as though Andrew has also been gaining the trust of the Scoobies, withstanding the temptation of the FE/Jonathan and choosing to ally himself with Buffy.

Furthermore, Dawn and Andrew, arguably the geekier, less powerful versions of Buffy and Spike, are forming their own little bond, just as Buffy and Spike seem to be forming/reforming one as well. Andrew has been desperately trying to get attention from someone in the past few episodes, and that someone has fairly consistently been Dawn. At first, like Buffy with Spike, Dawn is simply disdainful, although unlike Spike, who is first classified as frighteningly evil by Angel and Giles, Andrew is stuck with the label of "merely" incompetently evil. Dawn seems to warm to his plight a bit after a few days in the chair, although her first reactions are to harm him physically, just as Buffy's are to beat up Spike.

Dawn and Andrew share a few moments of potentially acknowledged geekhood or sympathy, but not much else besides, until First Date. Here, Andrew finally has the chance to demonstrate to the Scoobies that they didn't untie him for nothing, and he rats out his former boss. In the end, as Dawn nurses his injuries (well, rips the band-aids off), she tells him that he did well, and in return for the compliment and the expression of faith, he calls her a peach, which to me echoes of Spike's many little nicknames (pet, love, duck, etc).

As probably lots of people here have already noted, Andrew, especially in this season, seems to be the geekier, non-cool version of Spike, with an imitation-Spike leather coat and his "I'm still evil" speech to Willow in Never Leave Me. They both seem to be connected to the Seal (and Xander, another geek type, has joined club!), and they're both working their way to the light with the help of the Scoobies. Both Spike and Andrew were in a way seduced to evil-doing by someone who seemed to understand them intimately and were interested perhaps romantically (Drusilla and Warren), and both have had a chance to reject these major influences in the form of the First. Both also seem to be haunted by their victims, very graphically so in the First's manifestation of Jonathan for Andrew (perhaps Spike saw things like that when the First was haunting him in the basement?). And both began their start toward good behavior because of capture and immobilization by the Scoobies (Spike chained in the bathtub, Spike and Andrew tied to chairs), and through socialization seem to have begun desiring an alliance with Buffy's gang and with the mission of doing good things.

With these parallels, it always seems as though Andrew is a paler shade of Spike; he is perhaps what William may have been, unvamped, in the 20th century -- obsessed with his own world of art/popular culture, uncomfortable around women, and lacking anything resembling the cool facade of Spike. Maybe (pure spec) the inclusion of Buffy and Dawn (Dawn as diluted Buffy?) will also follow this parallel. Buffy's statement of belief in Spike is echoed in Dawn's praise of Andrew, and ME seems to be going down the same redemption route with Spike. Guess it's not that hard to predict that eventually dechipped Spike will have to face the FE and make the First relinquish another agent, and that perhaps Andrew may be brought further into the Scooby fold with Dawn's friendship.

Ok, back to lurking now ;).
[> Hey! Good thoughts! -- HonorH, 23:07:41 02/16/03 Sun

Delurk more often.

(No, Honorificus, you may not give him one of your little tests. We lose more newbies that way . . . yeah, I know that's the point. Just shut up, okay?)

Sorry about that. Super-Evil Alter-Ego, y'know?

As I was saying, good thoughts. There really are a lot of Andrew/Spike parallels. I'd noticed some of them, but hadn't really brought Dawn into the equation (mostly because I love Dawn dearly and would never wish Andrew on her). A Dawn-Andrew friendship, though, could be interesting to watch. Especially now, since Andrew seems to have stepped out of Neverland. Given his statements in FD, he's finally realized the gravity of killing Jonathan. He's starting to see evil for what it is instead of his super-villain fantasy. That's good.

One thing, though: Spike did resist the First's attempt to bring him back into the fold. While he was being tortured by the Turok-han and First-as-Drusilla, it kept trying to get him to voluntarily re-up with the bad guys. He told it where to get off. It remains to be seen, though, whether Spike will be able to overcome his programming.
[> [> Re: Hey! Good thoughts! -- Oyceter, 13:17:40 02/17/03 Mon

(No, Honorificus, you may not give him one of your little tests. We lose more newbies that way . . . yeah, I know that's the point. Just shut up, okay?)

*giggles* Actually, her, not him, but with online names it's near impossible. And thanks for the welcome!! (it may encourage the evil alterego, but tell Honorificus I love her posts? Esp. on fashion)

Before I wouldn't have wished Andrew on Dawn either. I feel lots of affection toward Dawn, thanks to having my own little sister. Yeah, the whining can be annoying, but all in all, I think Dawn is amazingly well adjusted for being an ex(?)-Key and the Slayer's little sister. I think it'd be especially interesting to see a friendship with Andrew and Dawn (and maybe Spike, if he starts really socializing with people outside of Buffy), especially with their in-between status as Scoobies and their geekness. I'd stick Xander in here too, except he seems to be more comfortable with his inner geek now, despite the uncomfortableness about exchanging talk with Andrew. Maybe this in a way goes back to his uncomfortability with homosexuality/excessive homosociality (Larry outing himself to Xander in Phases)? I mostly agree with lunasea and read Andrew as gay, but I think Peggin's theory on Andrew merely being attracted to anyone with power is also key. I guess I kind of see Dawn and Andrew as feeling a bit left out of the Slayer/SiT action.

I also agree that Spike has definitely resisted the First when he was used to open the Seal, but I figure ME must have taken out his chip for a reason, in terms of storytelling. Maybe they'll have another human villain or more proof of Spike's choice of being a white hat in resisting the temptation, to, say, bite an annoying potential slayer... ;).
[> Re: Spike and Andrew (spoilers through First Date) -- luna, 09:22:55 02/17/03 Mon

I may be way wrong here, but I always thought Andrew was gay. Didn't he react to Spike rather than Anya when the trio was watching them make love? Haven't there been some other indications of his gayness? Not that this has much to do with the parallel between him and Spike, but goes a long way towards explaining why he doesn't do well with women.
[> [> also spoiler for Entropy in post above--sorry! -- luna, 09:35:43 02/17/03 Mon

[> [> Re: Spike and Andrew (spoilers through First Date) -- Peggin, 10:40:15 02/17/03 Mon

I may be way wrong here, but I always thought Andrew was gay.

I'm not sure if "gay" is the right term for Andrew. IMO, he seems to have a weird kind of sexual orientation where he is attracted to anyone he sees as being an authority figure, regardless of gender. I'm pretty sure there have been a couple of times when he has commented on Buffy being attractive. He seems to be increasingly drawn to Dawn ever since she made him think she has a "License to Kill" him. Since it's a fact of life in our society that people with power are more likely to be male than female, he's probably attracted to men more than he is to women, but I really don't think it's a factor of gender for him. Just like this season's mantra -- it's about power.
[> Re: Spike and Andrew (spoilers through First Date) -- leslie, 15:17:21 02/17/03 Mon

"They both seem to be connected to the Seal (and Xander, another geek type, has joined club!)"

This just made me think of something--everyone who has been "sacrificed" on the seal has been male. Coincidence? Simply due to the fact that a successful sacrifice requires cutting mystic symbols into someone's chest and they would have a hard time showing that with a topless actress at 8 pm on broadcast tv? Or, given the role-reversal that sparked the show, is it a reversal of the standard virgin-sacrifice, lady-in-peril-tied-to-the-tracks motif?
OT on my moms weirdness RE BTVS! -- Drizzt, 04:06:43 02/17/03 Mon

Thank you Marie
I still lurk: this site has been my fave internet site since I found it.

Clarification(s)

1. My mom is showing multiple symptoms of schizophrenia.
2. She is an alcoholic; has not acknowledged this fact.
3. She is obsessive/compulsive; heard of Fung Shui? It is PERFECT for someone who is obsessive/compulsive. And surprise; my mom is obsessive about Fung Shui;)
4. Possibly going through menopause; unknown, except for she has been three times worse than normal in terms of ALL of her idiosyncrancies during the last three months.
5. Related to 4; she is seemingly right on the verge of a mental breakdown.
6. ACK!;( My mom is the most illogical person I know, whereas in most respects I am VERY logical...makes communicating with her difficult for me. My obsession is illogical and impractical/unwise.
7. Amazingly, my mom has pissed me off in the last three weeks more than my dad managed to in the two years he was staying off and on with me. Mom is the ONLY person ever to REACH and surpass my patience level; not even my dad surpassed my tolerance for bullshit.

Good thing in this is I am going to talk to her about all of this stuff tomorrow. Hopefully(fingers crossed) I can get her to see a counselor who would be able to diagnose her better than me, plus prescriptions. Going to a free clinic, if mom is willing.

With that background in mind, here is the Buffy deal. 1st my mom said to get rid of my Diablo 2 video game...or move out. I had the collectors edition and the expansion pack and the original: so I threw out $120 worth of a game that I like. Was not a big deal to me though.

Then she said to get Buffy out of the house for a while until she had cleared the 'bad vibes' from the house that it 'invokes'. This was fine with me, though annoying. THEN she said that my Buffy stuff was NEVER coming back in the house, but it could be stored in our shed outside; NOT acceptable to me, Buffy and me are a packaged deal. THEN she told me that even the shed was not acceptable, and to add insult to injury she told me to through all of my Buffy stuff in a dumpster. I did not do that; I just walked with the intention of not coming back. I did not have anywhere to store the stuff, and no money to rent a storage unit. If my mom rejects BTVS she is also rejecting me & weirdly until 6 weeks ago my mom had no problem with the show; she actually likes it and admires various aspects of it and specifically SMG for portraying an admirable heroin(sp? don't mean the drug)/role model.

Anyway I came back specifically to stick around long enough to at least give her my paycheck for rent/expenses. I told her that me and my Buffy stuff are a package deal; she relented and gave me 'permission' to store the stuff in the house that I pay HALF of the rent/utilities.

As things stand now: I have 'permission' to watch BTVS IF and ONLY if I chant some weird thing to one of her deities then light incense afterwards. This condition is insulting to me: even thought I am VERY obsessed with the show, and it is my favorite show I will NOT watch it with conditions that are bullshit IMO. BTW FYI my mom did not have these conditions for if I watch some OTHER show or movie such as Hellraiser????!!!! just more insulting for me;(

SO, I told my mom that I am moving out because of this disagreement: she said fine. I promised that I would stay until she gets her drivers license(THAT is another really weird deal going back three years), then I will leave. Since I will NOT accept the conditions of watching BTVS I am missing out on new eps: darnit;( Would be simpler if one of us was less stubborn or if I were willing to chant ??? and do the incense, or last if I were willing to be dishonest and watch without doing the chant...but that is not the case.

Thanks to any who read: you can go WTF? like me

Smorgie;)
[> Was replying to Marie: S4 DVD thread got archived as I was typing my message -- Drizzt, 04:10:24 02/17/03 Mon

[> My thoughts are with you Drizzt -- Tchaikovsky, 04:43:07 02/17/03 Mon

You've just described what sounds to me like an almost impossible situation. Obviously your Mum is being unreasonable, but also obviously there are reasons why it is not an easy option to tell her.

My thoughts are with you, and best of luck with your talk

TCH
[> [> Thanks for the good thoughts TCH;) -- Drizzt, 10:23:09 02/17/03 Mon

[> Re: OT on my moms weirdness RE BTVS! -- Rhys, 05:05:43 02/17/03 Mon

It sounds like your mom has a lot of problems in her life and doesn't really understand why. She's probably been mentally disturbed, to some extent, for most of her life (schizophrenia is an insidious disease), and if she's going through menopause, she's going through a lot of hormonal and chemical changes which are inevitably affecting her body--including her brain.

The alcoholism and the Feng Shui, as you probably know, started as defense mechanisms. The alcoholism probably began as "just a drink to calm her down." Feng Shui claims that by harmonizing one's environment, you can create harmony and nobility in yourself. I can see why a woman whose mind is in disarray would become obsessively interested in a concept such as Feng Shui. She's probably telling herself, "If my house were harmonious and ordered, my life and mind would be too."

She really needs to believe that there is some sort of fix out there, because right now she is spiraling downward--and probably doesn't know why. I would lay money on the fact that she is avoiding thinking about the possibility of mental illness. That's most likely something she is afraid to admit, even to herself.

As for her sudden loathing for your video game and for Buffy, it's not unlikely that she sees the game and the show as summoning vast destructive evil into her house. Think of the basic theme of Diablo II, according to its manufacturers: "After possessing the body of the hero who defeated him, Diablo resumes his nefarious scheme to shackle humanity into unholy slavery by joining forces with the other Prime Evils, Mephisto and Baal." Of course, the player is supposed to stop him, but the premise of the game is very dark.

Buffy suffers from bad PR among Christian groups because of all the supernatural evil in the show. Vampires, demons (the good demons REALLY freak them out), ghosts, monsters, witchcraft as a force for good and evil (another freakout topic), hellmouths, demon dimensions, apocalypses...well, the list goes on and on. Even more, the show challenges traditional values--Buffy is a kick-ass heroine who is in charge, not the damsel in distress, Willow is a lesbian (and a lesbian who is happy BEING a lesbian, and who is shown to have been in a good and loving relationship). This kind of thing frightens some people. It upsets their world.

Well, you already know that your mom is unstable, depressed, confused, and desperate to put order and harmony into her existence. She doesn't understand why her life is so miserable, and she is probably afraid to consider the possibility of mental illness because it conjures up images of snake pit mental institutions, straightjackets and screaming madmen. I doubt if she thinks of mental illness as something curable. She may even think of it as a sign of something shameful, a symptom of a weak character. So mental illness is something she doesn't want to think about as a cause. Yet she needs something to blame for her unhappiness.

Enter Diablo II and Buffy. There are plenty of groups out there who claim that reading a book, watching a show or playing a game related to the occult summons the forces of evil to your side, giving them tacit permission to destroy you. Yes, it's nuts, but it gives your mom something to focus on--an outside evil, something that she can fight.

She may not have thought this out in any conscious way. But I think that is what is going on in her confused mind.

I hope that she can be treated for her illness. Schizophrenia and menopause are both conditions involving chemical imbalance, so some pills to restore the balance might help. She also needs to stop drinking, because that will interfere with the pills for her treatment and continue to unbalance the brain's chemistry in the direction of massive depression. I'd also urge her to stay away from foods heavy in preservatives such as potato chips, Fritos, pretzels, and candy--the chemical thing again--and to adopt a diet heavy in veggies. Vitamin E might be needed too; it can have a calming effect.

I'm sorry that she is so desperately unhappy (even if she's yelling at you, I suspect that the anger stems from unhappiness and fear) and I'm sorry that she is making you unhappy as well. Good luck to you both, and I hope it works out for both of you.
[> [> Rhys -- Drizzt, 10:13:23 02/17/03 Mon

Thank you for the feedback Rhys;-)

Already got some feedback from the chat feedback LittleGoddess;)

But I will reply point by point to your post. It is valid in several respects and an alternate perspective is certainly refreshing: I unfortunately cannot be impartial when my mom is IN MY FACE daily.

"It sounds like your mom has a lot of problems in her life and doesn't really understand why. She's probably been mentally disturbed, to some extent, for most of her life (schizophrenia is an insidious disease), and if she's going through menopause, she's going through a lot of hormonal and chemical changes which are inevitably affecting her body--including her brain."

Agree, as I understand mental illness in general: it starts out minor and you can deal. Then it just gradually gets worse, but slowly enough that at any point in time it 'seems normal' subjectively vs. people who have not seen you for years would notice vast differences from what they remembered.

"The alcoholism and the Feng Shui, as you probably know, started as defense mechanisms. The alcoholism probably began as "just a drink to calm her down." Feng Shui claims that by harmonizing one's environment, you can create harmony and nobility in yourself. I can see why a woman whose mind is in disarray would become obsessively interested in a concept such as Feng Shui. She's probably telling herself, "If my house were harmonious and ordered, my life and mind would be too." "

Defense mechanisms? True, however the alcoholism is something she was psychologically prone to due to childhood family issues. Both my grandparents were MAJOR alcoholics for decades: for years my mom would come home and grandma would be passed out under the kitchen table. Talk about being embarrassed to bring friends over? "Well here is my lovely home, want to have some cola? OH, careful not to step on my moms legs sticking out from the dining table!" Mind in disarray? VERY: mom manages to lose her purse two or three times a day... Related: a coping mechanism she uses is gardening. Also she gets up at four AM daily to meditate. RE gardening, she has a paranoid fear/hostility of our neighbor who she thinks is/used to be a black witch...this is possible due to several variables, but I am undecided either way due to insufficient info. PSYCHO cat was one convincing variable 10 days ago though, is one of the neighbors cats.

"She really needs to believe that there is some sort of fix out there, because right now she is spiraling downward--and probably doesn't know why. I would lay money on the fact that she is avoiding thinking about the possibility of mental illness. That's most likely something she is afraid to admit, even to herself."

Valid to a degree, but she is the one who convinced me to get counseling and deal with my depression. And regularly she helps people with various psychological problems or just disasters in their lives. Basically my mom helps other people at the expense of her own finances and emotional balance. She is very generous and helpful; excessively so since it leaves her vulnerable to codependancy and people taking advantage of her. Anyway, my mom has no problem in general with mental illness, but I would guess that she would not like to admit to herself the degree of her OWN psychological issues.

"As for her sudden loathing for your video game and for
Enter Diablo II and Buffy. There are plenty of groups out there who claim that reading a book, watching a show or playing a game related to the occult summons the forces of evil to your side, giving them tacit permission to destroy you. Yes, it's nuts, but it gives your mom something to focus on--an outside evil, something that she can fight."

Important variable: IMO my mom really IS psychic, and when she says she is channeling info from various things this is probably perfectly valid. With this in mind, the schizophrenic stuff is intermixed with valid/real psychic/empathetic insights. Makes for more confusion for me: mom is ALL heart/emotions and intuitive vs. I am primarily logical.

She may not have thought this out in any conscious way. But I think that is what is going on in her confused mind.

"I hope that she can be treated for her illness. Schizophrenia and menopause are both conditions involving chemical imbalance, so some pills to restore the balance might help. She also needs to stop drinking, because that will interfere with the pills for her treatment and continue to unbalance the brain's chemistry in the direction of massive depression. I'd also urge her to stay away from foods heavy in preservatives such as potato chips, Fritos, pretzels, and candy--the chemical thing again--and to adopt a diet heavy in veggies. Vitamin E might be needed too; it can have a calming effect."

Good advice;) One factor is my mom is borderline diabetic: she gets even more distracted/overwhelmed when she does not eat enough and properly...which has been for the last month or so.

"I'm sorry that she is so desperately unhappy (even if she's yelling at you, I suspect that the anger stems from unhappiness and fear) and I'm sorry that she is making you unhappy as well. Good luck to you both, and I hope it works out for both of you."

Again, thanks;)
Hey, maybe I will print this thread and give it to her as a point of discussion? Would also be good for her as a starting point with a psychiatrist if she is willing to do that.
[> Re: OT on my moms weirdness RE BTVS! -- luna, 08:49:58 02/17/03 Mon

Drizzt:

That does sound like a very strange set of demands. I know it must be really, really hard to live with that. I can't tell how old you are, but if you're over 18 it might be good to get out on your own--but you know, I don't really know you or your mom, so my suggestions might not be very helpful. If she won't go to a counsellor, is there anyone you can get who does know both of you to help you with this? Family friend, school counsellor, relative, doctor, etc? Maybe that person could either convince her to get help or could help you find a way to live somewhere else. I think it's really hard for a child to change a parent, but I also think you are really being pushed to the wall!

Hope you'll find a way out of this soon-- good luck.
[> [> Re: OT on my moms weirdness RE BTVS! -- Drizzt, 10:20:46 02/17/03 Mon

Was on my own for nine years. I am 29. Had a mental breakdown in 2001 and my mom was the one who kept me from fully self-destructing. Self-destruct is still attractive to me; I am on the fence on this as I am still depressed.

In most respects my mom is the complete opposite of me; the major exception would be we both have high moral ethical codes that are personal and independent of social/external influence. I am an introvert, my mom is VERY social and extroverted. She has many friends...for backup RE convincing my mom to get some counseling.
[> You have my sympathy. -- AurraSing, 09:29:58 02/17/03 Mon

I've got a sister who manifests some of what you are describing-God knows I would not last two minutes living with her!

Moving out sounds like the best thing for you, providing your mother does not try to make your new life hellacious....

A good friend back when I was a teenager told me that the best thing I could do for myself was to move as far away from home as I could as soon as I could-I took her advice and moved 1500 miles away from home as soon as I finished college. Based on what I've seen happen with the two sisters that never really did leave home, I'm thankful daily that I escaped the warping affects that an alcoholic father and a co-dependent mother inflicted on those two.

Good luck and get out! (And hopefully she will go to the free clinic for some help.)
[> [> Re: You have my sympathy. -- Drizzt, 10:27:47 02/17/03 Mon

Thanks;)

Already done that; I left and did not talk to my mom for two years when I was 18. I am at the point where if she does not fix(or at least WORK on alleviating the excesses) her problems I might just leave again and break off all contact with her.

Smorgie.
[> [> [> Re: You have my sympathy. -- Dariel, 12:47:22 02/17/03 Mon

There might be a middle ground here. If you move out now, it will reduce some of the stress of dealing with her on a daily basis, and perhaps give you a bit more perspective/distance. (Hard when it's a parent, I know!) Better than just getting so fed up that you break off with her completely.

Also, you should be talking to a counselor/therapist yourself, regularly if possible. You don't have to deal with your mom by yourself. The internet is good for support, too, but no substitute for a live person to talk to.

I guess my point is that you need to help yourself first. Deal with the pain this must be causing you. Then, maybe you can help her.
Bloopers -- CW, 08:51:32 02/17/03 Mon

Like a lot of other people I spent a good bit of time watching Angel the last few days. Besides being reminded of how bad episodes like The Bachelor Party, She and I Fall to Pieces are, it was fun to see my favorites, too. But, at the end of the marathon I was delighted to see my favorite ME blooper again.

For years, my favorite had been a scene in "Never Kill a Boy on the First Day." Buffy is trying to make an impression on Owen in the school cafeteria, when Cordelia walks up bumps into her knocking Buffy's tray out of her hands. At least that's how it's supposed to go. In a rare acting lapse, SMG securely grips the tray with both hands through collision and then an instant later, carefully dumps it.

But, that is nothing compared to the Amazing Demon Donut in Sanctuary. It's a scene with a meaty discussion between Wes and Cordy, but the donut steals the show. Cordy picks it up bites it, tears it open. Wes grabs it, and the donut partially repairs itself. It's back to together again and the bite marks seem to be moving around. One instant there's a big gap into the center of the donut, the next Wes bites into it, and viola, there's more donut left after he bit into it than before.

We've been discussing whether or not Principal Wood's glance into the rear view mirror at Spike was a blooper. Can anybody think of any other bloopers we've seen on Buffy or Angel?
[> The demon hairscarf -- Helen, 09:11:52 02/17/03 Mon

I really can't remember which ep this is in, its Season 4 when Riley is going mental (that's not very descriptive is it?) and he's badly scratched his hand. Buffy tenderly takes the little nonsense triangle scarf from her hair (I'm sure Honorificus had something to say about it at the time) and wraps it around the cut. Camera pans back to her face, and the scarf is still on her head. Magic.
[> TALK ABOUT BLOPERS -- CW, 09:39:27 02/17/03 Mon

I don't know why I had Sanctuary on the brain, but the last episode of the season and the one with the donut is To Shanshu in L.A.

Can't blame this one on bad proofreading. ;o)
[> Re: Bloopers -- ponygirl, 10:45:00 02/17/03 Mon

It's funny just the other day I was mentioning my weird phobia about watching office managers/secretaries onscreen to a friend. Something about seeing people being all organized and administrative makes me flashback to my days as a very bad and very stressed office coordinator. Then my friend confessed that she has a problem with continuity errors such as suddenly disappearing bags or scarves. It's not that the mistakes bring her out of the story, it's that she starts worrying about where the item went, and if the characters are going to need it later. I had to bow down before a greater neurosis than mine.

I always notice in When She Was Bad that Buffy is wearing a different outfit in the car with Joyce on her way to school than when she arrives at the school. I think it was a case of the scene order being switched in editing and ME hoping we wouldn't spot it.

Isn't there supposed to be a blooper reel on the s6 dvds? Something to look forward to when it hits North America sometime in the next couple years.
[> Re: Bloopers -- Alison, 11:02:05 02/17/03 Mon

Buffy's color changing top in Anne
[> I remember another minor one -- CW, 11:31:34 02/17/03 Mon

At the beginning of Surprise in season 2, in the yard at school, Buffy convinces Willow to go talk to Oz, and the couple agrees to their first date at Buffy's birthday party. Willow has on one of those big hats that Keith Topping in his book Slayer refers to as a 'tea cozy.' After Willow leaves Buffy to talk to Oz, what little we can see of Willow's hair keeps rearranging. Sometimes it's all swept back behind her ears, sometimes there's sizeable lock of it in front of her ears.
[> Buffy's hair -- Cheryl, 11:46:41 02/17/03 Mon

Not sure if this was really a blooper or not, but it always jumps out at me - at the end of Hush Riley & Buffy are sitting opposite each other in her dorm room ("We have to talk") and Buffy's hair is behind her shoulder on one side. At the beginning of Doomed we pick up (supposedly) right where we left off, still sitting across each other on the beds, but her hair is in front of her shoulders on both sides.
[> [> Re: Buffy's hair -- Wisewoman, 12:07:23 02/17/03 Mon

The one that's always bothered me isn't a blooper really. I'm sure it was done deliberately and maybe with extensions!

Last season, in Gone, everybody makes such a big deal about Buffy's haircut. I'm not sure exactly which episode she's back to the below-shoulder length, ponytail type hair we're used to, but it sure was faster than any human hair can grow!

dub ;o)
[> [> [> "I wonder if Slayer power also extends to hair growth?" Exactly my I thought with this one.*L -- Briar Rose, 16:50:42 02/17/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> If Spike & Angel can do it, why not Buffy! -- WickedBuffy, 16:55:44 02/17/03 Mon

[> Earshot -- Rattletrap, 14:41:33 02/17/03 Mon

The one that always gets me is the clock on the tower at the high school in Earshot. In one shot, it is about 12:30 and in the next it is more like 3:00. I had always assumed that it was just too much trouble to keep resetting the clock, so they didn't bother, but JE's commentary on the DVD says they built the tower. Why did they put a working clock that they couldn't reset in a prop clock tower?
[> The Amazing Wesley... -- Rook, 15:49:16 02/17/03 Mon

...and his magic color-changing napkin in The Prom has always been one that's stood out to me. (It happens right when he sees Cordy come into the prom)
I think I know why Willow is SOOOO Powerful!!!! -- Jean, 10:31:07 02/17/03 Mon

I believe that I have found why Willow is so much more powerful then Tara and Amy(whose birthrights were both to be powerful witches) In Becoming Giles talked about the re-souling curse needing to tap in to extremely powerful magicks. Later in B2 Willow becomes possessed while doing the curse opening up a door of mystical energy through her. Though her being possessed would normally have no lasting effect on her(Like in "I Only Have Eyes For You" ppl were possessed but no one kept anything memories ect. afterwards.) It is what she was doing while possessed. She was channeling the ether ,which if you do some research if pretty freakin powerful, then was possessed by the same woman I believe that cast the curse to begin with. Thus opening the door even wider. Tara and Amy are powerful witches in their own right but they where not tied to such big energy source's. This and also at the end of last season she did kinda suck up a bunch of magick.....Hey she like a magick Brawny paper towel...This is just speculation but if you think about it ,it does make sense
[> Magic Brawny Paper Towel sucking up magic=Willow? LOL -- Drizzt, 11:27:11 02/17/03 Mon

[> [> Yeah I'm Hilarious -- Jean, 12:06:38 02/17/03 Mon

[> Pretty much agree with your analysis.... -- Briar Rose, 16:33:45 02/17/03 Mon

One of the other reasons is that Willow transcended the normal human emotion of self doubt.

For the character most plagued with self doubt and self esteem issues earlier in the show - Willow was able to connect with her own Power and Self Confidence when doing magick in the most direct way of any of the "magickal characters". Much more so than Tara, Giles or even Amy.

Magick is 50% Belief in the magick and one's self, 40%emotion of such a high magnitude that you literally change the energy within and without with your emotions and 1% each Luck, Timing, Ingredients, Universal Laws of Balance and Metaphysical Knowledge.

I have followed Willow particularly in the Buffy-Verse - I used to have a "I Watch Over Willow" gif on my website*L - because Willow is a little like me and walked a lot of my same path. However we diverged at so many points, so I have never seen myself AS Willow, only as a Concerned Parent/Watcher type viewer. I am much more "Buffy" with Willow's earlier "nerdy" wrapper.*L

This past season was truly an emotional rollercoaster for me with the character Willow. Even more so a rollercoaster of emotions about what ME was portraying as magick itself. I won't go into another long ramble about all that - but I will say that I would have made some major changes in the way I portrayed the same story and most of all story background than ME did from the very beginning of Willow discovering magick and her working with it.
"Restless" Ruminations: Is the Cat now out of the Bag? -- Valheru, 16:47:52 02/17/03 Mon

[As usual, all episode quotes are from Psyche]

Because I can never get enough of it, I saw "Restless" again last night. A lot of the foreshadowing has already come to pass, but I watched with an eye toward the present. How does "Restless" predict Season 7? As if to answer, the episode perhaps gives us a clue in the very first line of the first dream, Willow's.

TARA: I think it's strange. I mean, I think I should worry that we haven't found her name.
WILLOW: Who, Miss Kitty? (Shot of their kitten, playing with a ball of red yarn in slow-motion.)
TARA: You'd think she'd let us know her name by now.
WILLOW: She will. (Looking down at Tara) She's not all grown yet.

I have seen many theories as to what Miss Kitty Fantastico represents in Willow's dream. Dawn. The First Slayer. Willow herself. And each interpretation is probably correct, in its own context. But what if there's more? Is there another connection here? So I look deeper.

"...I think I should worry that we haven't found her name." Names are important. They have power. A name gives identity, makes something more than an object or an idea. Names humanize. "The Key" is an idea, a force, but "Dawn" is a name, an identity. With that in mind, there have only been two characters who haven't been named on screen: The Master (he's named in Joss's script only) and...the First Evil.

-------------------------------------------------

The opening scene of Willow's dream ends with an interesting juxtaposition, which can be seen as foreshadowing her descent in Season 6.

WILLOW: I don't wanna leave here.
(Tara twists back to look at her.)
TARA: Why not?
(Willow stands up, looking down at Tara. She turns away toward a dark red curtain. Walks over to it.)
WILLOW: It's so bright.
(Pulls back the curtain to reveal a brightly sunlit desert. The light falls on Tara, who looks over.)
WILLOW: (looking back at Tara, still holding the curtain open) And there's something out there.
(Shot of the desert, straggly plants, rocks. We briefly see something (someone?) moving, then it's gone.)
(Shot of the kitten stalking forward toward the camera, in slow-motion.)

"And there's something out there." Willow wants to stay with Tara, where she feels safe. But she's afraid of something. "Restless" initially presents two of Willow's fears being herself (the personal fear) and the First Slayer (the physical fear). But does it also give us a third fear? What kind of fear does Miss Kitty Fantastico represent in the final frame? Well, what does happen when Tara is (fatally) separated from Willow? Willow turns evil.

-------------------------------------------------

Is "Restless," then, presenting Miss Kitty Fantastico as a representation of evil? Of the First? Maybe. But is it the only instance? From "Graduation Day":

(Cut to Buffy walking through Faith's apartment her arms crossed in front of her. There are cardboard boxes stacked everywhere. Buffy stops and sees a cat jump up on Faith's bed.)
BUFFY: Who's going to look after him?
FAITH: It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?
(She walks up behind Buffy and stops next to her.)
BUFFY: A higher power guiding us?
(Faith looks at her then turns away and keeps walking towards the camera.)
FAITH: I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant.

"A higher power guiding us?" To Faith, the cat represents herself. But what is the cat representing to Buffy? When Buffy looks at the cat again, it flickers between itself and an image of Faith in the hospital. So this, at least, implies that Buffy too interprets the cat as Faith. However, Faith thinks of herself as...herself, but Buffy thinks of Faith as her dark Shadow. Is the cat representing to Buffy the Power of the Slayer she shares with Faith, the power which she begins to believe is rooted in evil? What is Buffy's "higher power?" Is she equating the Slayer to cats, cats to Evil? It should be noted that before the First Slayer tells Buffy that "death is [her] gift" in "Intervention" (which Buffy at first thinks is confirmation that the Slayer leans toward evil), it is a cat (mountain lion) that guides her.

-------------------------------------------------

What does all this mean? I dunno. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. After all, AFAIK, we haven't seen any cat motifs with the First Evil, only the First Slayer. But maybe that's the point. Maybe it's all part of Joss's plan to show that while power can appear to be evil, it's only evil if you use it that way. Or it's Joss's sneaky homage to a certain Broadway musical. That Joss...he's so catty.

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