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A question I have had since Angel's first season. -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 18:10:01 02/13/03 Thu

Right around the time that the episode of "She" came out back in the first season, I remember reading a few interviews with the actress who played the demon/alien/whatever princess. One interview I thought I read, but have been doubting recently, is that she was supposed to have become a recurring character. Now, since that never happened, I have been wondering if what I read on the internet was an actual interview, or just speculation and/or something someone made up. Does anyone know anything about this, and if the actress was supposed to return, why didn't it happen? Not that I am complaining mind you, I thought the episode and character were kind of weak (although the scenes without the princess were pretty funny). I just wanna know if I imagined this, was misinformed, or what.

Thanks

[> I'm assuming it didn't happen b/c "She"s pretty much universally labeled the worst ep of AtS -- Rob, 18:31:09 02/13/03 Thu

[> [> It had its good points though -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 19:05:16 02/13/03 Thu

That line about cell phones being the product of a bored warlock was pretty funny, and I liked his little speech about that painting. But other than that, yeah, I agree with you.

[> [> [> Re: It had its good points though -- Dannyblue, 19:25:11 02/13/03 Thu

I have a copy of TV Guide in which the actress said she had great fun working on AtS, and they were already talking about bringing her character back.

So, you are not imagining things.

Not only that, but they were still talking about bringing her back as late as season 2. In an article, one of the producers talked about what a great character she was, and how she and DB made sparks shoot off of the screen.

What were *they* watching?

Nothing against the actress. It was the story. Hot (literally) inter-dimensional babes on the lamb. When they're in heat (figuratively) their spines glow. They have to stay packed in ice...naked, of course because, well, hot babes. And all human men fall at their feet...before burning to a crisp.

Yeesh!

[> [> [> [> Re: It had its good points though -- Rhys, 04:32:17 02/14/03 Fri

"It was the story. Hot (literally) inter-dimensional babes on the lamb. When they're in heat (figuratively) their spines glow. They have to stay packed in ice...naked, of course because, well, hot babes. And all human men fall at their feet...before burning to a crisp."

Granted, that was lame. But I looked at it more as a story about objectifying people, and about how you had to turn a person into a thing in your mind before you could dehumanize them physically or legally.

Remember the alien girl Shari who did get her ko cut? She was screaming, pleading, bargaining, begging--saying and doing, basically, whatever she had to in order to survive as herself. And the cold comment from Tay: "Why does it speak when no one listens?"

It. Not even the pronoun "she." It. An object. A thing. A piece of furniture. Something nameless, without identity or need for identity, incapable of thought, of emotion, of anything approaching personhood. Something of no value save to one who wished to possess it. Spoken in a voice of cold indifference.

The treatment of others as objects is a familiar theme in the Jossverse, and it's always treated as wrong, damaging both to the person so demeaned and to the one doing the demeaning. The Master regards Buffy as just another ingredient in his ritual for freedom. Catherine Madison switches bodies with her daughter, thus stealing Amy's youth, identity and future. Natalie French doesn't care about the boys she kidnaps and kills--they are just males, there to fertilize her eggs. The frat boys in "Reptile Boy" consider the girls they feed to Machida to be of no importance--the girls are just food for their snake demon god. Kendra initially treats both Buffy and Angel solely as targets, even though neither one presents a threat to her. Faith has sex with Xander pretty much because he's there and she's horny--ending his relationship with Cordy. Buffy tries treating Spike as a thing, her undead boytoy. Tara's family treats its women as things and then justifies the action by saying the women are evil. Willow tries to control things countless times: by making her will control reality ("Something Blue"), by wiping out Tara's memory of a fight ("All The Way" and "Once More With Feeling"), by trying to wipe out Buffy's memory of heaven ("Tabula Rasa"), by very nearly destroying the world and all its people ("Grave"). The argument has been made over and over again--you cannot treat a person as a thing. It always leads to wronging that person, and that always leads to unhappiness.

Okay, yes..."She" IS a lame episode, one of the weakest, if not the weakest, in the first season. And that theme has been used to better effect elsewhere in the Jossverse. But I still think that the message was worth saying.

[> [> [> [> [> 1 definition of evil -- anom, 23:02:33 02/16/03 Sun

"The argument has been made over and over again--you cannot treat a person as a thing. It always leads to wronging that person, and that always leads to unhappiness."

John Brunner's definition, to be specific. I heard him speak at Lunacon years (probably >10) ago. He said, "Evil consists in treating another human being as a thing." (He may have said "sentient being," but I don't remember for sure. Most of his SF dealt w/humans--I can't think of one that involved aliens. The definition works either way, though.)

[> [> [> When Rob hates it... -- Scroll, 21:25:37 02/13/03 Thu

...you know you've got a bad episode on your hands! :) Seriously, I didn't hate all of "She" but it really is the worst episode of either Angel or Buffy. I think most fans will agree on that. But I love it for Wesley and Angel's pathetic attempts at socialising. God, I miss those two clowns...

[> [> [> [> LOL. It's "Him" all over again! -- Rob, 21:29:57 02/13/03 Thu

I agree, though. I don't think the episode was completely awful, although at the same time, it was the worst of both shows. Which just goes to show how high-quality BtVS and AtS are, because the worst ep of both shows is still watchable and has its good points. Which is pretty amazing, when you think about it.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Well . . . -- HonorH, 22:09:10 02/13/03 Thu

"Watchable" is such a relative term. I simply could not sit through all of "Where the Wild Things Are." Clicked it off about 3/4 of the way through. Come to think of it, I should have done the same with "Beer Bad".

BTW, I never did watch "She". I was advised against it. From all I've heard, I didn't miss much.

[> [> [> [> [> Rob, you're just anti-pronoun! -- d'Herblay, 23:58:41 02/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> That was a classic dH :-) -- Dedalus, 08:46:27 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm quivering in fear for the upcoming BtVS trilogy, "You," "Her," and "Them"! -- Rob, 09:00:26 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Are those actual ep titles? -- HonorH, wondering, 12:19:46 02/14/03 Fri

Just curious. I'm aware of a couple of upcoming ep titles, but not those ones. Are you just funning, or are they real?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just funning...and apparently not very well. ;o) -- Rob, 12:52:37 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Meanwhile, at AI they're fearing the -us -- Arethusa, 09:11:51 02/14/03 Fri

"cause you add -us to Angel and get...oh, never mind. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Meanwhile, at AI they're fearing the -us -- Rob, 09:15:55 02/14/03 Fri

"cause you add -us to Angel and get...oh, never mind. :)"

No, that's a good one! :oD

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: When Rob hates it... -- CW, 07:45:05 02/14/03 Fri

The only really excruciatingly bad thing about "She" is the presentation of the female extras and the guy's reaction to them, as if they were straight out of one of those horrifically patronizing sci-fi movies from the 1950's, Zsa Zsa Gabor's immortally bad Queen of Outer Space for example. Otherwise, I'd have to say the pathetic "The Bachelor Party" is even worse. And still, season one of Angel is my favorite.

[> [> [> [> [> I loved "Bachelor Party"! Any Doyle-centric ep is okay with me. -- Rob, 08:58:16 02/14/03 Fri

[> "She": Worst. Episode. Ever. (Both AtS and BtVS.) -- cjl, 11:03:36 02/14/03 Fri

I actually have a few fond memories of such legendary stinkers as Wrecked, Teacher's Pet and Bad Eggs. Not many--but enough to beat out "She" by a mile.

[Hmm...I'm seeing a bad pattern here.

Teacher's Pet - Greenwalt
Bad Eggs - Marti
She - Greenwalt and Marti
Wrecked - Marti
Tomorrow - Greenwalt

Five of the most infamous Mutant Enemy stinkeroos, written by DG or MN, with the worst of the five combining their talents. Just an observation; and just to show you I'm not bashing here, five of my favorites from both series:

Angel - Greenwalt
BB&B - Marti
To Shanshu in L.A. - Greenwalt
Forever - Marti
Sleep Tight - Greenwalt

Sometimes, even good writers can have a bad day.]

[> [> Not my vote for Worst Episode Ever -- Masq, 13:35:26 02/14/03 Fri

The one I cringe at every time is "Where the Wild Things Are". When I was introducing a friend to Buffy, I wanted to skip right over this episode.

I'm pretty neutral about "She"--don't love or hate. I had no problems with "Bad Eggs" or "Go Fish" or "I Robot You Jane" which everyone else seems to dislike for some reason. They weren't the best episodes, but I didn't mind them. All these episodes were just neutral filler between classics as far as I'm concerned.

The Angel ep I cringe the most at is "Sense and Sensitivity". A lot of people enjoyed touchy-feely Angel. I was just embarrassed through the whole second half of the episode.

[> [> [> Sense and Sensitivity -- CW, 13:48:44 02/14/03 Fri

I have sort of the same reaction, although not as strong. I like the episode, but especially when touchy-feely Angel and weepy-wimpy Kate start thrashing the bad guys, to me, it's more creepy than funny.

[> [> [> [> Re: Sense and Sensitivity -- Dannyblue, 14:26:20 02/14/03 Fri

I really like "Sense & Sensitivity". In fact, I like a lot of episodes other people don't like, while I dislike a lot of episodes other people love.

But, with "She", I have never seen anyone--*anyone*--say they love or really like that masterpiece. No-one! The most positive response I've ever heard concerning the ep was that it wasn't too bad.

But, I admit, I have a tendency to be a lot harder on AtS and BtVS than on other shows. Stories similar to "She" have been done on other series, and I've been fine with it. But I just expect more from ME.

[> [> [> Have to agree about Where the Wild Thing Are.... -- cjl, 14:03:04 02/14/03 Fri

Bad juju there. But at least I could focus on Xander and the Anya/Spike scenes, because those were funny. You needed them to take your mind off the B/R bumping and grinding, which was excessive, prurient and uninteresting, a rare combination. (Gee, and Tracey Forbes wasn't invited back for S5? I wonder why?)

Still not as bad as "She," though. Greenwalt thought he had a recurring romantic foil for Angel with the alien babe. But this episode might have killed the actress' career....

[> [> [> Aw, come on Masq, how can ya not like touchy-feely Angel? Be a rainbow, not a...painbow. ;o) -- Rob, 16:21:43 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> <<<shudder>>> -- Masq, 16:48:23 02/14/03 Fri

The. Single. Lamest. Line. Ever.

I love Tim Minear, but....

shudder

[> [> [> [> [> Re: <<<shudder>>> -- Rob, 19:01:09 02/14/03 Fri

Bad line, I will admit, but I think DB's delivery was great.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> I'm pretty sure it was *supposed* to be a lame line. -- HonorH, 19:12:32 02/14/03 Fri

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of Angel's "sensitive" dialogue was supposed to be lame.

[> [> [> [> [> Aww...come on, it was funny... -- Random, 23:13:53 02/15/03 Sat

....stupid, but funny. The whole ep basically struck that general tenor. You can't appreciate "Angel the Wayward Tourist"? Stupid, but funny. Which, I suppose, is a fairly decent definition of "campy."

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Aww...come on, it was funny... -- Rahael, 06:14:00 02/16/03 Sun

And it made the incredibly painful scenes between Kate and her father, by contrast, even more so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> True, too true...sigh. I actually felt terribly sorry for Kate, who wasn't a favorite character. -- Random, 11:38:28 02/16/03 Sun

[> [> [> Re: Not my vote for Worst Episode Ever -- Tess, 09:01:37 02/15/03 Sat

I have to agree, SHE is not the worst episode ever. But IMO neither is Sense and Sensitivity. My vote for Worst episode ever goes to I Fall to Pieces. Its the only episode of season one I've not been able to make myself watch again.

[> [> [> We get to vote? I love Bottom 10 lists -- they're bound to push someone's button. Heh. -- Sophist, 09:27:18 02/15/03 Sat

Here's my bottom 10 (BtVS only):

10.Hells Bells. Sorry, but the demon/human scenes were not funny.

9. Listening to Fear. The quellar demon was lame. Nothing else to it.

8. Inca Mummy Girl. Misfired satire. The Buffy/Ampata theme pales in comparison to Buffy/Faith.

7. Doublemeat Palace. Maybe it's funny if you worked in the fast food industry.

6. Wrecked. "Drecked" is more like it.

5. IRYJ. Heavy handed, not very funny.

4. Reptile Boy. See above.

3. WTWTA. cjl mentioned the only highlights.

2. Dead Man's Party. Lame plot, offensive behavior by Xander, Willow, and Joyce make me too angry to watch it.

1. As You Were. The best word is "loathesome".

[> [> [> [> Yup, I disagree with you on all of them, except Reptile Boy. :o) -- Rob, 10:42:07 02/15/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Oh no, Mr. "I love them all". You don't get off that easy. -- Sophist, 15:18:16 02/15/03 Sat

You have to list your bottom 10 and explain why each one belongs on that list. Remember -- it's all relative.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Making *Rob* give his bottom 10 and explain them? You meanie! -- HonorH, 15:28:49 02/15/03 Sat

Really, making him say bad things about the Jossverse? You'll scar his poor, perky little psyche! His pom-poms will wilt, and Dawn will take a pair of scissors to his cute-yet-manly cheerleader outfit.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm doing the bidding of the FE. It's all part of the grand scheme. -- Sophist, 15:33:10 02/15/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL. Gulp. -- Rob, 18:08:10 02/15/03 Sat

Okay, I don't have time at the moment to explain why, and it pains me to do this. Grr, Sophist! ;o) But I swear, I can't come up with 10. I tried as hard as I could. So here's my as long-as-it-can-possibly get list. There are 6. And, btw, none of them are so bad that I can't watch them.

So I'll give my list for now, and explain later. ;o)

10. All the Way
9. The Shroud of Rahmon
8. Him
7. Reptile Boy
6. I Robot You Jane
5. Double or Nothing
4. Some Assembly Required
3. Bad Eggs
2. Go Fish
1. She

That was enough torture for now! I'll be back later with explanations. *sob*

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Face your inner darkness and transcend it, Rob. I know you can do it. -- Sophist, 20:50:00 02/15/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Face your inner darkness and transcend it, Rob. I know you can do it. -- Rob, 09:45:28 02/16/03 Sun

I just re-read my post, and I realize I said that I couldn't come up with 10, and then gave a list of 10. The reason for that is to begin with, I only had 6 but then I really thought about it and expanded the list and forgot to fix the top of the message.

Anyway, here goes...But remember the caveat remains that there isn't one of these I wouldn't watch over and over. "Worst" is just a relative term.

10. All the Way--I found the story kind of lifeless and not very interesting. It seemed like a rehash to me. With the exception of the developments about Willow's magic and Xander and Anya, the Dawn plot, IMO, was kind of lame. I just couldn't get into it.

9. The Shroud of Rahmon--This one bored me, too. I thought the mythology about the shroud was kind of uninteresting. Yeah, it makes everyone go evil and kill each other. I don't know. Yawn.

8. Him--This one certainly wasn't boring, but it also wasn't the genius I expect from the show. Yes, on repeated viewings, I will admit that I did find a lot of good, but on the whole, the lightweight, throwaway story really clinches it for me. Whether or not it plays on themes of the season, I found no reason to care about the main story. The last act was fun, and I know it was a farce, but at times I thought the humor was just too dumb for this show.

7. Reptile Boy--This one's an easy one. Ridiculous plot, lame demon, too-thin metaphor. There was some good, but none of it was due to the snake demon plot. Good included Willow yelling at Giles and Angel, the gang walking in on Giles as he pretended to fight a vampire. But still, weak episode.

6. I Robot You Jane--Unfortunately, this is the only first season ep that focuses on Willow, because the computer demon and then the robot were pretty uninspiring. I came to appreciate it more after analyzing it for my site, but still, not a classic by any stretch of the imagination.

5. Double or Nothing--Where do I begin? It screws up and muddles the entire "soul" definition on BtVS and AtS. The only way to make this episode make sense is to pretend that they're not using the word "soul." Pretty poorly written. Gunn sold his soul year ago? Uh, okay.

4. Some Assembly Required--Another throwaway standalone. For all of the brilliance in the second season, it is the season, I believe littered with the most weak episodes. Standalones don't have to be throwaway. But there are a lot of that category in this season. Don't really have much to say about this episode, because it isn't very memorable.

3. Bad Eggs--We're starting to reach the lowest of the low here. Okay, evil eggs that are controlling people's brains. What the hell were they thinking?

2. Go Fish--The swim team is being turned into fish demons. And if the eating-the-school-nurse scene wasn't ridiculous enough, we are treated to the fun "They really love their coach" ending. Ugh.

1. She--This is like they took all the worst cliches of the worst "Star Trek" episode they could dig up and slapped the Angel characters into it, and called them separate dimensions instead of planets. The woman, I forget her name, not only gave a weak performance, but had zero chemistry with DB, despite how much steam they showed rising from her spine. There is nothing worse than forced chemistry, IMO. (Unfortunately, that is what I think is happening right now w/ Willow and Kennedy. But that's another story.) This episode is the closest I can come to one where I would think twice before rewatching.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good reasons all. -- Sophist, 10:32:38 02/16/03 Sun

Though I though Him was very funny. Can't disagree with you on the others.

The only eps I just can't watch in their entirety are AYW and Dead Man's Party. All the rest have enough redeeming features for me to enjoy. I just skim over the weaker scenes and take in the good.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Good reasons all. -- Tess, 23:11:55 02/16/03 Sun

I also really enjoyed HIM, but to each their own taste. The only episode I would add to the list is I Fall to Pieces. I haven't been able to make myself rewatch it. But the important thing to realize is that a bad episode of Buffy or Angel is better than a ok episode of any other show and even better than the best of others.

[> [> [> [> The only one I've got to strongly disagree with you about: -- HonorH, 11:02:07 02/15/03 Sat

"Listening to Fear". The Buffy-Joyce scene at the end about Dawn is enough to make me forget about the lame demon.

[> [> [> [> [> I like that scene too. -- Sophist, 15:29:28 02/15/03 Sat

Most eps have at least one redeeming scene, even WTWTA (cjl pointed them out). I had to rate them anyway, and LtF lost out for general lameness and pointlessness. The great thing about AYW is that I don't even need to worry that there might have been a good scene or even a good line -- it's entirely without a redeeming feature.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Also disagree with you about that one. -- HonorH, 17:12:22 02/15/03 Sat

I never quite got the venom heaped on AYW. Even managed to get a fic out of it. True, it wasn't exactly the best episode--in fact, I'd rate it somewhere deep in "nothing special" land--but there were things I liked about it. The thing I liked best was actually the Buffy/Spike breakup scene. I thought it was handled wonderfully, though I may be alone on that one, too.

WTWTA, on the other hand--Giles sang, and Anya and Spike bonded. Other than that, it was a total wash.

[> [> [> [> Push buttons? You? Why on earth? -- Random, 23:01:19 02/15/03 Sat

Wow, a place for a bottom 10.

10) "Graduation Day pt II": probably not only many bottom ten lists, I know, but the entire sequence after the funny Buffy/Willow exchange at the graduation ("Oh my God! He's going to do the entire speech!" "Man, just ascend already" -- gotta love those lines) up until "fire bad/tree pretty" made me cringe in shame. The cinematography alone (cuts, angles, pacing) was horrible. Am I the only one that got the feeling that the cuts to Xander playing general were close to the most awkward staging/acting the show has ever done? The first 3/4 of the ep was great, the final 1/4 just bothered me viscerally. I can't rewatch the ep without feeling a little morose, especially since I loved all of Part I.

9) "I Robot/You Jane": eh, bland. Bland. With a side of blah.

8) "Doomed" : It was about this time that my niggling suspicion that the writers spent time interviewing their 12 year old kids for authentic emotional interactions grew into a burgeoning paranoia. The interactions between Buffy and Riley just dragged. On and on. I felt like I was watching "Passions: the Bitchfest Chronicles."

7)"SAR" Eh, some nice moments, but mostly just off-putting without actually being creepy.

6) "Dead Man's Party" Painful to watch. Painful to philosophize on. Painful to confront the fact that my fanship of the show had come so far that I was physically and psychologically incapable of turning the TV off even as I watched the party degrade into an embarrassingly twisted version of the final episode of M*A*S*H.

5)I'm gonna put a disclaimer for this one before I mention the title because it's apparently a popular top ten favorites choice.

Disclaimer: I am, at heart, a hopeless romantic/idealist -- I did 8 years of literature and poetry, after all -- but every once in a while, I am appalled at the dreck people will do and/or write in the name of love. Especially write. Hence, intelligent meditations on romance and love do quite well for me; cursory and cliched ones don't. End disclaimer

"IOHEFY" Hated it. The conceit of a vampire taking the victim role and changing the story was the only redeeming factor for me in this ode to over-identification and irrational behaviour. Rolled my eyes at everything from the teacher's pontifications about "a normal life" to the cast-iron anvil of emotion slam-banging of the Buffy/Angel kiss. Got a little moist-eyed at the end of "Passion," "The Becoming II," "The Body" and even "SR." The Great White Light of Peace and the Kiss of Lost Love -- not even a sniffle. Barely restrained a groan of impatience. I'm putting this in my bottom 10 not merely because I didn't like it -- some of my least favorites are actually pretty high on my list of "good" episodes -- but because ME was whacking me over the head with the emotion and symbolism. Sloppy writing.

4)"WTWTA" Can I be blind too? And an amnesiac?

3)"Listening to Fear" Uggh. Disgusting. And with no particular amount of originality or interest. Though Joyce's scenes, especially that one in her bedroom, were fantastically creepy.

2) "Doublemeat Palace" I don't know what to make of this one except that it was basically a rather vulgar stab at humor. Depressing too. Plus I never eat fast food. Haven't in ten years now. If the table is made of formica or the utensils come wrapped in a plastic baggie, I move on.

1)"Smashed/Wrecked" A two-parter. "Smashed" is the only episode I haven't watched at least twice. The sex scene at the end was too painful and ugly. Which doesn't make the episode a bad one, necessarily, but if I add on "Wrecked" and the addiction storyline, we have a real loser set here. "Wrecked" was a bad episode. Pure stale flan.

There were others I didn't care for -- IMG, AYW, Shadow -- but they weren't terrible. (Of course, a bad BtVS is still usually a few steps above any other show on TV, so...) And I found other unpopular episodes to be acceptable, if not exceptional, entertainment -- Bad Eggs, Ted, IWMTLY, Beer Bad, OAFA, et al. Filler eps are not, in and of themselves, a bad thing. "Hush" and "The Wish" are prime examples of good fillers.

[> [> [> [> [> Because they're there. *Evil laughter ensues* -- Sophist, 08:19:35 02/16/03 Sun

Interesting list. I agree with you about the editing of GD2, but, to me, the rest of the episode makes up for it. I agree with you about Doomed -- it probably would have been 11 on my list.

I wasn't a big fan of IOHEFY on first viewing, but reading posts here and re-watching it have given me a greater appreciation. I like it.

My only real difference with you is on Smashed. I absolutely love that final scene. I actually have Smashed as one of my top 10.

[> [> [> [> [> [> They are? Where? All I can see are levers, dials, and even a pop-tab. No buttons. Sigh.... -- Random, 10:33:14 02/16/03 Sun

Well, "Smashed" disturbed me not so much because of the sex scene in and of itself. (I noticed I had two sex-romp eps on my bottom ten list -- Smashed and WTWTA -- which is odd, because I'm not particularly bothered by such content in general.) Anyhoo, the final scene of "Smashed" was merely a culmination of a problem. What really bothered me was the fact that it happened in spite of Spike's verbal abuse of Buffy immediately prior to it. She succumbed to his, um, "charms" (note I use sarcastic quote marks) after he spent several minutes telling her she was "wrong" (metaphysically speaking) and basically trying to demean her in order to make her feel that he was good enough for her. Quite a contrast to S7 where he wants to better himself. Okay, it's powerful drama and all that rot, but I found it viscerally overdone and I never was quite convinced that Buffy's S6 persona was authentic -- it struck me as somebody forcing a storyline for the sake of catharsis. (It was only later that I discovered Marti's role, and when I read about it, I went, "Aha! I knew it!" in a very loud, triumphant voice.) So I couldn't bring myself to buy into the premise that led to the sex. Sure she was dragged from heaven -- and that was as powerful a premise for a season arc as ME has ever come up with, three cheers! -- but I'm not certain ME's handling of the fallout was up to their normal standards of creativity. It felt artificial, which contrasted to the more organic creativity of other seasons.

Sigh...I really, really want to appreciate S6 and Smashed. I guess it's time to go back and do what I swore I'd never do -- re-watch "Smashed" and a few other mid-season eps and see if I've been too harsh.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: They are? Where? All I can see are levers, dials, and even a pop-tab. No buttons. Sigh.... -- Sophist, 13:03:30 02/16/03 Sun

Oh, I completely agree about S6 in general and, to some extent, on Marti's role. While my criticisms of S6 are no secret (actually, I'm sure they've reached the point of tedium for most readers here), the season does have several outstanding episodes (OMWF, TR, DT, NA).

I liked Smashed, and especially the ending scene, for several reasons. One, I did appreciate the sheer eroticism of it. That's unusual and hard to do on TV. Two, the house-falling metaphor, while a bit blunt, did let us all know that this was not a match made in Heaven. Three, I was satisfied with the lead up to B/S. I was persuaded that her anomie upon return, her recent background with Spike (Intervention, The Gift, Afterlife, OMWF, whatever she knew of Spike's behavior over the summer), and her desire to feel adequately justified her behavior. As for Spike's insults to her, I saw that as another example of slaying makes ya hungry and horny (not just Faith; watch The I in Team), so the pre-coital fight made sense also.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmmm...mehbee soh, mehbee soh -- Random, 17:53:19 02/16/03 Sun

I agree that S6 had some superb episodes. Pretty much the ones you mentioned, in fact, plus "Two to Go," and "Life Serial" (to mention a couple I liked more than usual, if not fell head-over-heels in love with.) Oh boy...I feel like I'm banging the gut-reaction drum without having taken sufficient time to re-evaluate and give the storyline a second chance. I hate that feeling -- makes me feel mean and chary, which totally violates my self-image. And I especially don't want to do that with a ME product -- after seven brilliant seasons of BtVS and four of AtS, they've more than earned the right to a fair trial (or retrial, as the case may be.) Okay, I'll go back into my darkened TV room and won't emerge until I've given said episodes a second chance.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hmmm...mehbee soh, mehbee soh -- Sophist, 18:25:09 02/16/03 Sun

In addition to the ones I mentioned above, I really liked Life Serial, Entropy and Afterlife. Can't say much for the middle eps (Wrecked to Hells Bells), though even Gone has its moments. My real problems were with the ending (SR-Grave). But I do find that repeat viewing causes me to like eps better, perhaps because I see things I missed the first time, perhaps because I've internalized some posts here.

[> [> [> [> [> Beer Bad -- Rufus, 23:41:31 02/16/03 Sun

I liked Beer Bad...skip the message that Beer can be bad for you and go to the part where Buffy hits Parker over the head...twice...not to champion violence against jerks, but I found those moments strangely satisfying....does that make me bad?

[> [> [> [> My bottom ten list (some surprises!) -- cjl, 21:25:42 02/16/03 Sun

10. Teacher's Pet. Being one of the pre-eminent Xanderfans on the board, this episode naturally stands out. First ep to focus on a main character other than Buffy, and it's the most conventional plot in the history of the series. Everything from Xander's rock star fantasy to the nightmare that was Miss French was way too pat; you could see every plot point coming a mile off. And the whole mislead with Buffy, Angel and the One-Armed Vamp...WTF?

9. Reptile Boy/Help. Other than the Buffy/Giles and Willow/Giles/Angel scenes in Reptile Boy and Azure Skye's performance in "Help," this is a two-for-one worst of pick. Recycling Reptile Boy's frat brothers wasn't too smart a move, since they weren't all that interesting in the first place...

8. Waiting in the Wings. Shocking, huh? This ep bored me to tears. Other than the one funny line ("I cried like a baby--and I was evil!"), the dialogue fell flat, and the "sizzling chemistry" between the possessed Angel and Cordy set off anti-C/A shippers all over the globe. Credit to Alexis Denisof, whose performance almost snapped me out of my coma--but not quite. What do you know--Joss is human, after all.

7. I Fall to Pieces. Episode 4, first season: this seems to be a bad luck slot for ME (see Teacher's Pet, above). Sorry, but I simply could not take the premise seriously. Even as a metaphor for stalking and the invasive power of the voyeur, the dis-assembling doctor wasn't menacing or creepy, and the whole episode came off as silly.

6. Tomorrow. Ye gods, what have I got against David Greenwalt? I seem to be picking on him disproportionately here, and I normally like his stuff. (Last week's Miracles script was excellent!) But I'm stringing up "Tomorrow" as a representative of the entire "What's Up with Cordelia?" plotline, which started in Birthday, and continues its long torturous path with no end in sight. Yes, I know it was all a set-up for the events at the end of Calvary, but (for all intents and purposes) removing your female lead from the continuity of the series for OVER A YEAR, and promising you'll explain everything eventually, just doesn't make sense. Tomorrow was the most anti-climactic season ender in BtVS and AtS history.

5. Hero. I know--blasphemy. The only Tim Minear script I do not like. Bombastic and overwrought to the point of offensiveness, they tried to do a WWII pic in 40 minutes, with the demon half-breeds as the helpless Jewish villagers and the Scourge as the Nazis. Doyle's final sacrifice didn't move me a tenth as much as Cordy and Angel watching the videotape at the end. Huge letdown.

4. Double or Nothing. Agree with Rob--totally messes up the soul metaphor as used in Buffy and Angel. Gunn/Fred scenes were horribly forced and I almost gave up on both characters. It wasn't until Deep Down that I could look at Fred and Gunn together without wincing. Angel's strategy to double-cross Jenoff was the worst plan in the history of AtS until Wesley decided they had to bring back Angelus...

3. Bad Eggs. I didn't find the premise as lame as most people on the board think it is--but it wasn't that involving either. On top of that, it seemed as if Marti had only 30 minutes of plot and she put in the Gorch brothers to fill out the ep--and they didn't mesh with the "A" story at all.

2. As You Were. Oh my. Where to begin with this one: The way Riley seemed to forget everything he learned in S4 and S5? The Mary Sue Incarnate that was Sam? (Were we supposed to take them seriously, or were they a parody of the glamorous adventure couple? Does even Doug Petrie know?) The ludicrous and inexplicable demon egg plot? Spike running an international smuggling operation out of his crypt? Yeesh. Shame on you, Doug. Good direction, great production values, but if it ain't on the page...

1. She. Rob said it perfectly: "This is like they took all the worst cliches of the worst "Star Trek" episode they could dig up and slapped the Angel characters into it, and called them separate dimensions instead of planets. The woman, I forget her name, not only gave a weak performance, but had zero chemistry with DB, despite how much steam they showed rising from her spine. There is nothing worse than forced chemistry, IMO." You'd think ME would have learned something from this ep before they tried putting Angel and Cordy together.

[> [> [> I totally agree, and to rub extra salt in the wounds... -- Isabel, 12:05:17 02/15/03 Sat

I used to love Maurice Sendak's children's book of that name.

Different people have different tastes, but I fast forward for the 'Non-Sex' scenes in that one. Personally, I like 'Go Fish' (Xander in a Speedo...) and have no problems with 'Teacher's Pet' or 'Bad Eggs' (predictable, but enjoyable.) or even 'Beer Bad' (Ok, I love the scene where Willow tells off Parker.)

I haven't gotten to 'She' on my Angel DVDs yet, but I remember thinking it was the worst of season one. I liked 'I fall to Pieces' and 'Sense and Sensitivity'.

Ironically, the one episode of Buffy Season One that I can't watch is usually considered one of the best by other people. (Sorry, Masq) I can't watch 'Angel.'

[> [> She: The Good Parts -- Rob, 16:20:29 02/14/03 Fri

I just saw it today, coincidentally. I was up to it in the DVD set, so I paid close attention to assemble a list of the "keeper" parts of the episode.

1) The teaser scene--party at Cordy's house--along with Wes' pitiful flirting skills, the Angel dance, and him sitting in the kitchen afterwards and having a beer with Dennis

2) Wes finally being made a full-time worker at AI. And him tearing up.

3) I thought the creepiness factor was very good when the girl was begging not to be unmade, and the big, evil guy said, "Why does it speak when nobody listens?"

4) Angel's attempt to crush the coffee beans.

And that's it. ;o)

I'm actually kind of sorry Marti had a writing credit on this ep, b/c I love her, and every time she makes a misstep 20 million people are ready to tear her to bits.

And actually out of this list, I don't totally agree:

Teacher's Pet - Greenwalt--not a great ep, but it was early on, and I think, had some good points
Bad Eggs - Marti--gotta admit, not much (if any) good
She - Greenwalt and Marti--see above
Wrecked - Marti--flawed, but I actually liked it
Tomorrow - Greenwalt--I liked that one too

Rob

[> [> [> You just gotta love "She"... -- grifter, 09:49:57 02/15/03 Sat

...for Angel�s impressive dancing-skills alone!

Didn't care much for "She" either, but there are lots of early Buffy episodes that are much crappier.

Btw, "Bad Eggs" was Marti's first episode, in the commentary she even states that she had very little time to prepare for and write it, so I can't really blame her for screwing up. "Wrecked" is another story though... ;)

[> [> [> Re: She: some other tidbits -- Darby, 08:22:01 02/16/03 Sun

Incredibly meaningful line from Angel - "In Hell, you tend to know the people." It's the only real suggestion of detail about Angel's Long Goodbye. So where do vamp demon souls go when they've been dusted?

A couple of other things...

There's the suggestion, from Wesley's reaction to the women, that the non-unmade females may themselves be able to control the reactions of males. It's just a suggestion, but enough to make the situation a bit greyer. What if this is a demon species where circumstances require that either one or the other gender be in control?

Wesley actually starts channeling his inner Rocky in the big fight scene. Given a real place in the world, our eventual Wes starts to emerge.

And have they ever done extended funny credits in any other episode?

[> [> Bad, bad, and bad -- matching mole, 13:35:02 02/15/03 Sat

I could judge an episode as bad according to three different possible responses on my part.

1) Forgetting about the episode. Many of the episodes mentioned in the various posts here (e.g. WTWTA, Sense and Sensitivity, She) were ones that I had completely forgotten about. I had to look them up in Masq's episode index to figure out which ones they were. So possibly there are even more forgettable (from my perspective of course) episodes out there, but as they are forgettable, I have forgotten them. I guess I could read through all the episodes in the index but it doesn't seem worthwhile.

2) Episodes that irritated me, usually because the soap operatic elements seemed forced. Wrecked is a classic example of this.

3) Episodes that had bad luck in terms of their appearance in relation to other episodes. I'd have a hard time rating any BtVS S1 episode badly simply because I saw them with fresh eyes when BtVS first started. I probably over-rate the much maligned Doublemeat Palace simply because I liked it so much more than the episodes that came before and after it. It was also something different - a successful experiment in my opinion. By the same token the sequence of recent episodes that followed Conversations with Dead People probably got under-rated by me simply because they were a bit of a let down after the brilliant sequence that culminated with CWDP.

I doubt that there is an episode that I would rate badly on all three counts (1 and 2 are pretty mutually exclusive).

[> [> Doesn't appear to be the general consensus -- aofs, 13:46:55 02/15/03 Sat

"She: being the worst episode ever out of both series doesn't seem to be the general consensus at least as according to The Council of Watchers website (http://www.protej.com/buffy/). If you don't know the website, it is one where people rate all the episodes on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best.

"She" does however come really close. Here is a list of the ten worst episodes as rated on the CoW site along with their current rating.

1. Where the Wild Things Are - 4.37
2. I Fall to Pieces - 4.68
3. She - 4.90
4. Beer Bad - 4.91
5. Goodbye Iowa - 5.22
6. Reptile Boy - 5.35
7. Teacher's Pet - 5.44
8. Bad Eggs - 5.56
9. Doublemeat Palace - 5.58
10. Inca Mummy Girl - 5.70

Personally I think the worst episode is AYW. And I happen to love WTWTA. It's one of the funniest episodes they've done.

[> [> [> Huh! -- HonorH, 15:23:06 02/15/03 Sat

I can't understand how "Goodbye, Iowa" got there. I thought it was a pretty good ep, and some of Marc Blucas' best acting. When they gave the boy something to work with, he could be a pretty darn fine actor (and yummy to look at, but I digress). I also tend to give "I Fall to Pieces" a bit of a pass for the same reason I give "Teacher's Pet" a pass: both of them were extremely early episodes, before their respective series had really found their feet.

Of course, what do I know--I kinda liked AYW. But then, I like anything I can get a fanfic out of.

[> [> [> Re: Doesn't appear to be the general consensus -- Tess, 15:29:07 02/15/03 Sat

Errrr, I wish people would stop abbreviating titles because I have no idea what WTWTA stands for. After so many episodes of both shows its impossible to keep up with them.

[> [> [> In defence of "Where The Wild Things Are" -- KdS, 03:34:06 02/16/03 Sun

Not in my top ten, but I don't consider it as below average, let alone Worst. Episode. EVER!!!!!!

As far as I can see, the hatred is mostly down to a vocal faction who were simply grossed out by the concept - saw it as pornographic, demeaning to the characters and/or actors, whatever. If you had such a visceral reaction to it, there's not much I can say. However, it does contain some really, really good stuff - the "Giles, God of Acoustic Rock" scene, Spike and Anya bonding, Spike's (with hindsight, revealing) speech where he has to talk himself out of saving Buffy, Xander and Anya fighting side-by-side and, I feel, taking their biggest step from "orgasm friends" to lovers. I nearly forgot to mention that the early poltergeist manifestations were some of the spookiest scenes of the season outside Hush and Restless.

And for those people who were repelled by the idea, it's possible to see the episode as a riposte to people who see BtVS's attitude to sex as hostile and repressive - trying to make the difference clear between taking sex seriously (as BtVS does) and obsessive, warping repression as represented by the orphanage superintendent and the polts.

[> [> [> [> I liked that episode too. -- Rob, 09:47:46 02/16/03 Sun

I especially loved the whole fairy tale-esque thorns rising around the bedroom. It wasn't the best episode ever, but I liked it a lot.

Rob

Major casting spoiler for "Angel"-heads up for all "Firefly" fans!! -- AurraSing, 19:33:09 02/13/03 Thu

I just received this on my VartanHo mailing list-yippee!!!

Gina Torres Turns Bad for 'Angel'
Thu, Feb 13, 2003 05:28 PM PDT

LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - Fans of "Angel" who were
left bewildered by the ending of Wednesday's (Feb. 12)
episode will find out later this season who's been
behind all the havoc befalling Los Angeles.

Turns out the Big Bad looks a lot like Gina Torres.

Torres, who starred in "Firefly" earlier this season
and appears on "The Agency" Saturday (Feb. 15), has
signed to do three episodes of "Angel," according to
The Hollywood Reporter. "Firefly," like "Angel," is
the brainchild of Joss Whedon.

Her character is described as a "godlike" being who's
been the guiding hand behind recent events on the
show. That could mean she was the unseen being to whom
The Beast made an offering in Wednesday's show, and
that she was behind Cordelia's (Charisma Carpenter)
turn to the dark side at the close of Wednesday's
episode.

In addition to "Firefly," Torres also starred in the
syndicated series "Cleopatra 2525" and had a recurring
part as Sydney's nemesis Anna Espinosa on ABC's
"Alias."

"Angel" returns to The WB's schedule Wednesday, March
5.

Much thanks to my fellow Ho Patricia.

[> Great minds think alike. -- cjl, 19:56:46 02/13/03 Thu

[> A "woo" and a "hoo"! -- HonorH, 20:22:58 02/13/03 Thu

That's entirely too kewl! GT is gorgeous, sexy, and a terrific actress--perfect fit for a badass godlike being. I'm so glad Joss was able to find work for her!

[> Echoing the "Whoo-hoo!" -- Scroll, 21:17:26 02/13/03 Thu

While I'm still bitter over the loss of Firefly, I'm very glad to see that one of our Serenity crew will be getting some screen time... And even better, she's going to be opposite DB, AD, CC and all the rest! I'm so glad to work Gina Torres into the Buffy mythology. See! We got a Buffy/Firefly crossover afterall! :P

[> [> Dear God. Imagine the in-jokes Joss could put in these episodes... -- cjl, 21:21:38 02/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> I am sooooo especially happy... (casting spoiler) -- Rob, 21:27:27 02/13/03 Thu

...because I have been a fan of Ms. Torres for so long now!!

From her appearances on "Xena" as Cleopatra to her appearance on "Hercules" as one of the writing staff to her stint as Hel on "Cleopatra 2525" to her appearances as Anna Espinosa on "Alias" to, of course, Zoe on "Firefly."

The chick just kicks ass...

...and now the news that she's gonna be the Big Bad. I am so supremely happy. :oD

Rob

[> [> [> [> "Her appearance on Hercules as one of the writing staff"?! -- cjl, 10:17:20 02/14/03 Fri

C'mon, Rob--you knows as well as I do that was the LEAST of her contributions to the series.

I fell in love with GT as Nebula, the tough but gorgeous pirate queen/prodigal Babylonian princess. The Nebula/Iolaus 'ship was one of the hottest in Sam Raimi's universe. When the Herc/Xena braintrust gave Gina her own series, I intently watched the first episode of Cleopatra 2525 to catch her in action....and actually KEPT WATCHING just for her, perhaps at the cost of several thousand brain cells. (Hmm. Maybe Masq should cross-reference this to the Bad TV thread below.)

"One of the writing staff" indeed.

[> [> [> [> [> Oooh, snarky! ;o) -- Rob, 12:08:57 02/14/03 Fri

I didn't watch Herc as religiously as Xena, so ya gotta forgive that. I caught "Yes, Virginia, There is a Hercules," and the other one, forget the name, where ROC played Sunny Day, the camp counsellor because of the cast crossovers. Nebula does sound a hell of a lot cooler, though. Maybe some day in the near future I can catch it on DVD.

"When the Herc/Xena braintrust gave Gina her own series, I intently watched the first episode of Cleopatra 2525 to catch her in action....and actually KEPT WATCHING just for her, perhaps at the cost of several thousand brain cells."

Me, too. Oh, my, that was...um...quite a show. "Voice, tell us what to do next!"

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Cleopatra 2525: the show that gave "camp" a bad name. -- cjl, 12:35:34 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OoO but I'd rather travel the way they did than teleport! -- WickedFreefall, 12:56:20 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, just jump and hope you don't slam into a jutting rock on your way down. ;o) -- Rob, 13:11:34 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ow, Rob. Hey! They never did! (OK, I'd wear a helmet) :> -- WickedHeadache, 15:10:27 02/14/03 Fri

[> Re: Major casting spoiler for "Angel"-heads up for all "Firefly" fans!! -- s'kat, 21:43:24 02/13/03 Thu

Hmmm...still could be the first evil? Though reminds me a lot of Glory.

Now if they could just cast Alan Tudyk, Summer Glau and Adam Baldwin somewhere...I'd be happy.

[> Ummm....there are future plot spoilers as well... (no spoilers here, though) -- Darby, 05:46:04 02/14/03 Fri

Even if they are vague, about this person's role, which might answer some current questions.

I like knowing casting spoilers - gives me something to anticipate without knowing too much - but I'm really trying to stay plot-spoiler-free. But maybe that's just me.

[> [> I'm the same way. -- CW, 07:26:53 02/14/03 Fri

[> Shouldn't all these spoilers go on the SPOILER BOARD -- V, 09:11:34 02/14/03 Fri

Here it is: http://www.voy.com/83370/
Get it outta here.

[> [> May I respectfully ask a question here? -- AS, 10:01:13 02/14/03 Fri

Looking through the archives at all the other posts with large spoiler warnings for board members (like those for the other "well known major casting spoiler for AtS") and the fact that I did warn of spoilers in my heading, is there any particular reason why you are dumping on me right now?

I didn't post the spoiler with those at ConverseBuffyverse because I'm not a member there, I came to offer it to those fans like Rob who enjoy the work of this actress. Based on the low volume rate of postings at the VoySpoiler board it's apparent that most of the traffic is here and since I don't have the time to post at multiple sites, I placed it here.

If this board totally banned "Spoilers" I would never have considered posting it here but after 2 years of lurking and posting, I think it's obvious that spoilers, appropriately labeled as such, are not taboo. If I had broken rules (AND I DID LABEL THIS POST A "MAJOR CASTING SPOILER" not a "Oh, minor casting of a bit player")it would have been a mistake but I find your attitude unnecessarily rude.

Goodbye and have a nice day-you certainly managed to ruin mine!

[> [> [> It's not just you. -- V, 10:32:15 02/14/03 Fri

I'm sorry that it came across as personal. There have been several posts lately discussing what may or may not be "well-known". And, directly below this thread was a majorly spoilery new thread.

The spoiler policy is ambiguous. I always assumed the spoiler warnings were for people who hadn't seen episodes that have been aired, while future unaired-in-any-timezone discussion belong on the board set aside for that purpose.

Thanks for your nice-day-wish. I do wish you a nice one as well, and I hope you won't let board postings ruin another fine day in the real world.

[> [> [> See both sides! (cast & plot spoiler from above, and the WKCS too!) -- Neutral Observer, 10:36:54 02/14/03 Fri

If I may, there's two distinct spoiler issues here. One is the casting spoiler, and the other is a plot spoiler as noted by Darby above.

I suspect that there aren't many who would have had a problem with the simple statement that "Gina Torres has signed on for a few eps". However, the bit about being the BeastMaster is another can of wax. Knowing such a character will be on for exactly three eps changes how you react to the introduction of the character. As soon as she walks on screen, we'll know now exactly who and what she is. That may not be the way things were intended by the writers.

Some people work very hard to stay plot-unspoiled. Knowing ED is coming back tells me nothing about whether she's "good" or "bad" or "insane" or whether Faith will help or hinder or smooch or anything else. "Eliza Dushku will appear" is way, way different from "Faith will be in precisely two episodes and her character will have an affair with Angelus before resouling him and she'll have a catfight with Cordy and and and..." [Note: That was spec, not a spoiler; I know nothing about Faith's plot arc, nor do I want to.]

I agree that V could have taken a less abrupt tone, but for someone who thought they were getting one kind of (benign) spoiler and ended up getting more than they wanted, I don't blame them for the reaction. No need for the ongoing taking-it-personal thing, right?

[> [> [> You didn't do anything wrong : ) -- Masquerade, 10:37:10 02/14/03 Fri

You labeled your spoilers, you made the spoiler trollops on the board happy, you followed the rules of the board just fine.

So don't worry!

The Management

[> [> [> [> From someone who has had the same reaction: You could have kept "firefly" off the title -- Dochawk, 14:12:55 02/14/03 Fri

People who are interested in casting spoilers would still look and those who aren't wouldn't now know that one of 6 people will be on Angel. Seems ridiculous to me, but that's their right and I know I have been ultraconsious not to give clues to the spoilers in the subject heading (and its sooooo easy to do).

Finally I can't imagine anyone watched the last Angel doesn't know the "well known casting spoiler" given that Wb didn't leave any time between the end of the show and the miniPromo.

[> [> [> You're right, of course -- slain, 11:25:19 02/14/03 Fri

I don't read spoilers and very rarely discuss the ones that I have accidentally read, so I used to be of the opinion that we should keep spoilers and non-spoilers completely separate - but someone (ZachsMind, I think) made a good case to the effect that then there's no middle ground - there would be nowhere for people to discuss specific spoilers (casting spoilers, say) without getting spoiled for a whole load of other things. I expect you'll find the majority of the board will be grateful for being given the opportunity to read this casting spoiler, without having to visit a spoiler site and risk getting a whole load of ocean with their dip.

I've had no problems with spoilers this season, and while I've inevitably heard the 'well-known' BtVS casting spoiler, that's all. I've even been able to read parts of this thread without getting spoiled - to me that says the status quo works.

[> [> Actually V, that board is only for backup -- Rufus, 22:16:57 02/14/03 Fri

The main board is the Yahoo Group which you don't even have to belong to, to post.....

Trollop Board

I've got that spoiler and more at the main board.

Insane Theory on Wes/Fred/Gunn - Part 1 (spoilers for S4) -- Scroll, 20:44:03 02/13/03 Thu

Warning: very long and slightly rambling.

Part I: Gunn and Fred, Wesley and Gunn

s'kat wrote in a thread below: I think Wes underestimates and possibly idealizes Gunn.

This is the sentence that clarified everything for me. (Thanks, s'kat!) I've been trying to figure out just what it is about the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle that confuses me.

[Aside: I love Angel, maybe even more than Buffy. But one thing I must admit, I find the romantic relationships extremely contrived, especially at the start. The only relationships I believed from the get-go were Angel/Darla (and that's Buffy canon) and Wesley/Lilah.]

Wes/Fred and Gunn/Fred confuse me to no end. These are three very attractive and interesting people whom I have no problem seeing as friends. As lovers? It gets iffy. When Wesley develops a crush on Fred in "Billy", I have no real problems. When Wes and Gunn get into a pissing contest over Fred in "Provider", I am less pleased. Before "Provider", we never have any hint that Gunn is even remotely interested in Fred. In "Waiting in the Wings", Fred admits to liking Gunn. When he is stabbed, she worries, he makes up poetry, they kiss. Okay, no problem so far. It's cute! And definitely worth it for the Wesley angst. Then comes "Couplet", "Loyalty", and "Double or Nothing", which featured pancakes, cuteness, and not much else.

"What on earth do Fred and Gunn see in each other?" I asked myself. "Gunn likes to watch Fred eat. Anything else?" Not that I understood what Wes saw in Fred other than another book geek -- but at least they have something in common! Fred and Gunn don't have anything in common except fighting evil. But I tried to give Fred/Gunn a chance and eventually I got used to it, especially once "Deep Down" showed us how these two worked as a team. "Ground State" really made me believe in this couple -- partly because the schmoopiness was being replaced with conflict. Fred depends on Gunn to be there for her. She's having a nervous breakdown because she has been forced into the position of leader and decision-maker.

So I started to get a handle on Fred/Gunn. Yes, Gunn likes to watch Fred eat. We suspect Fred idealises Gunn as the strong, gentle protector. In "Billy", he let himself be knocked unconscious rather than hurt her. On the flip side, Gunn idealises Fred as someone sweet, innocent, and fragile he can protect. Someone to take care of the way he took care of his sister, Alonna. It's a match made in heaven; they both get what they want, a protector and a protectee.

But I'm not sure Fred (deep down) really wants or needs a protector. In "Loyalty", she wouldn't leave Gunn to the vampires: "I got your back!" Gunn wants to protect Fred by sending her away, but she wants an equal partnership and stays to fight by his side. The funny thing about this scene is that, minus the schmoopy kisses, I hear Wes and Gunn.

"Epiphany", from Psyche's transcripts:

Wesley: "But - I thought you'd gone."

Gunn: "Gone? Well, yeah, gone, but that don't mean I wasn't coming back! (Looks at Angel) What, you didn't think I was gonna abandon you like this guy, did you?"

Angel looks down.

Wesley, smiling: "No. Certainly not."

Gunn and Wesley exchange an elaborate handshake ritual.

Gunn: "Come on, English! You know you my man!"

Angel: "So, ah, I see you guys have bonded."

Gunn: "Happens when you fight shoulder to shoulder."

Wesley: "Or rather hip to shoulder these days."

Gunn: "This man took a bullet for me!"

Wesley: "Ah, it was nothing!"

They do the handshake ritual again.

(Aside: Someone once observed in her livejournal that "Fred is pretty much Girl Wesley". And thus adding a girl into the equation simply reinforces the homoerotic subtext between Wes and Gunn.)

Boy, do I miss Wesley and Gunn's friendship. They had nothing in common, but I really believed in their relationship in a way I can't with Fred/Gunn. Maybe it's the different ways the pairings were set up. But clearly Gunn sees Fred much the way he once saw Wesley, as someone who had his back. Someone he could count on. But Wesley fell from the pedestal Gunn had put him on, just as Fred has now fallen.

For more on Wes/Fred/Gunn, see the next post. This is getting too long!

[> Insane Theory on Wes/Fred/Gunn - Part 2 (spoilers for S4) -- Scroll, 20:47:53 02/13/03 Thu

Part II: Wesley and Fred, Wesley and the Fang Gang

In "Supersymmetry", Fred learns of Prof. Seidel's betrayal and sets out to mete some punishment. Angel and Gunn try to deter her from out-right bashing in Seidel's skull, so she sneaks out to see Wesley. Fred wants to dump Seidel in a portal, which may or may not kill him, she doesn't care. Wes says, are you sure? She says, yup. He says, okey-dokey. Gunn kills Seidel for Fred, to save her from becoming a killer. Smarter people than I have tackled the whys and wherefores of Gunn's actions -- suffice it to say, Fred can no longer idealise Gunn as her knight in shining armour, not when he's willing to commit murder for her sake. He took the protecting thing too far. Gunn now knows Fred has a dark streak but he's in serious denial about it. He's in denial about his feelings of guilt and hers, as well. Instead, he blames Wesley as the wedge between him and Fred (Wes does play a part, but not as big a one as Gunn believes, IMO).

Is Wes in denial about Fred as well? Does he idealise her the way Gunn does? Strangely, I think he does and he doesn't. Like Rahael says, Wes clearly has a virgin/whore thing going on with Fred/Lilah. But then again, he doesn't try to hold Fred back from making her own decisions and mistakes with Seidel. He doesn't mind her getting a little grey. So what the heck is Wes doing? Why does he pursue Fred? Okay, here's where I get really insane:

Fred = Innocent Wesley from before his exile.

More than that, Fred = Wesley before the Pylea arc, which is when Fred is first introduced. In "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb", Wesley and Gunn have their first serious clash, one that's never see resolved, one that leads directly to Wesley's decision to hide the "father will kill the son" prophecy and to kidnap Connor, and to Gunn's resulting anger and feeling of betrayal.

So here's where shadowkat's astute observation came into play: I think Wes underestimates and possibly idealizes Gunn.

Because I think Wesley really does. He doesn't see Gunn as capable of murdering Prof. Seidel. I think Wesley (deep down) sees Gunn as loyal and noble and deserving of Fred's love. Gunn is the good and ideal, what Angel Investigations is all about. Gunn = the friendship and love of the Fang Gang.

Wesley fell from Gunn's pedestal a tiny bit in "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb", then fell the rest of the way in "Forgiving". Wesley, whom Gunn called "a good man" and someone who "always made the right decision", was no more real than pure and innocent Fred who didn't condemn professors to hell dimensions.

But Fred is Gunn's lover. She has Gunn's adoration and respect. She's "got his back" -- just as Wesley once had a secret handshake with Gunn. Just as Wesley once fought hip to shoulder with him. Gunn still sees Fred as good and worthy of love. He would do anything for her.

So what Wesley is doing (subconsciously, I assume), is slowly helping Fred turn grey. Wes idealises her yet still wants her to turn grey... Because if Fred is grey and Gunn still loves her, then maybe Wesley still has a chance to be forgiven. To be loved. To be welcomed back into the family.

Notice what he says to Fred when he apologises in "Calvary": "What happened between me and Gunn, that's not what I wanted. Can you tell him that?" He worries about Gunn just as much as he worries about Fred, even though that doesn't keep him from competing with Gunn over her.

But please feel free to poke holes in my theory. Unfortunately, my theory doesn't really hold up once Wes actually has a fair shot at Fred. Does Wes actually want Fred for himself? Maybe by winning Fred, Wesley justifies to himself that his way, his decision to kidnap Connor and everything that happened after, is the right way. And that Gunn, as loyal and noble as he is, "can't really do it for her" after all. But honestly, what is Wes gonna do with her after he gets her? (Here's my incomprehension rearing its ugly head again. Sigh.)

To sum up my Insane Theory:

1) For Gunn, Fred/Gunn is half a substitute for Wes/Gunn and half a substitute for Alonna/Gunn.

2) For Fred, Fred/Gunn is really all about Fred/handsome man on white horse.

3) For Wesley, Wes/Fred is really all about Wes/innocent-Wes.

4) For Fred, Wes/Fred is really all about Fred/dark-impulses-Fred.

Underlying all the love/obsession between Wesley, Fred, and Gunn is the simple fact that (in the immortal words of Cordelia Chase), "It's all about me! Me, me, me!" Actually, if we go by my insane theory, Fred and Wesley are narcissistic, and Gunn is really the most selfless of them all. But we already knew that! : )

[> [> This is a really great essay -- Rahael, 01:06:20 02/14/03 Fri

I totally agree about the subtext between Gunn and Wesley. I think it's a brilliant point how Fred in some way serves as a malleable metaphor for both men.

This is just a quick comment because I should be getting out of the house and going to work!!

Obviously I don't agree so much about the Fred/Gunn and what do they see in each other thing ;)

Another thing is, the latest development in Gunn Wesley - I haven't really got a handle on it. I keep picking up an air of contempt from Wesley toward Gunn. Am I delusional? imagining it? Or overly influenced by the fact that Wesley keeps deliberately needling Gunn and Fred to try and break them up in recent eps?

[> [> [> PS -- Rahael, 01:11:08 02/14/03 Fri

What about Wesley's attitude to Angel? While I feel Wesley values and genuinely loved Gunn in a way, he also underestimates and looks down on him. I think he fully expected that Fred would choose him, and was astounded when it was Gunn. (Part of the reason I was behind the relationship in the first place. I like the underdog winning).

Who does he really look up to? There's a really complex relationship (complete with subtext and text) re Angel. "They think we're gay, don't they?" "Adds mystery".

In a way, Gunn is Wes brother, and Angel a combination of fatherfigure/lover. At one point, though Wes' feelings for both Lilah and Fred were completely understandable, I was also simultaneously adding in a running subtext with Angel!

(Okay, let's admit it, Alexis Denisof has a lot of chemistry!!). Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[> [> [> [> Thank you! Definitely agree re: Angel -- Scroll, 07:49:07 02/14/03 Fri

Thanks so much for actually responding to my essay! I worked so hard that I was fairly disappointed when it didn't get a lot of feedback right away... Yeah, I'm an insecure little girl who needs affirmation STAT! Anyway, I agree with most of your comments. And I do like Fred/Gunn. I actually find it more reasonable than Fred/Wes.

The subtext Wes has with Gunn is only overshadowed by the subtext he has with Angel! I remember a few posts back when "Loyalty" first aired about how Angel/Wes is very much like Gilgamesh/Enkidu, David/Jonathan, Damon/Pythias -- not that these pairings were necessarily slash, but that there is definitely something powerful at work in these friendships.

Yeah, I think Wes was surprised Fred choose Gunn, but the funny thing is, I didn't see him as looking down on Gunn in the beginning (say, "Waiting in the Wings", "Couplet", etc.) It's not until recently that he's gotten belligerent and competitive. Maybe because his outlook on life has changed post-kidnapping? That life is more (wait for it) cut-throat :) than he'd realised, and he needs to really push for what he wants?

But I totally agree about AD and chemistry. I can't wait to see him with (1st future casting spoiler) and (2nd future casting spoiler), especially considering recent developments in his relationship with (2nd FCS) in Real Life. :) I wonder how the actors will make out on screen -- not make out, make out, but how will they come across? Will there be subtext? I love a good sly subtext...

[> [> [> [> [> Second Casting Spoiler for Angel above (Spoilers for Calvary in my own) -- Rahael (Lilah, Wes, Angel triangle), 08:48:38 02/14/03 Fri

I agree re the change in Wes' attitude. I would also agree with Ponygirl's comment about Wes constructing a new identity. He was so cut down, that when he built himself anew, he did so in what seems on the surface a more confident, aggressive and detached model.

A bit like Noir Angel.

Like the episode Guise will be Guise, when Angel's away Wes puts on his coat. When Angel abandons him, Wes replaces him in his life by making himself the one who is powerful. That's why he rescues Angel. That's why he feeds him. Though there is love and tenderness there, there's also an element of "now, you'll depend on me. Now you're the one at the other end of the power dynamic". Wes strolls in to the Hyperion with all the answers, and strolls of again.

He even takes on Lilah. Until the Wes liaison, the man Lilah has real chemistry with, is Angel. We know she finds him attractive. They have that hate each other so much you know they want to sleep together tension vibe thing going on. It's not until Wes starts resembling Angel more that Lilah falls for him. (She tells him that it's the dirty looks that got her going in the first place).

So, they are both 'playing'. She wears Fred's glasses. He wears Angel's coat. Two people scared to love openly, instead taking part in an elaborate charade, which turns into genuine feeling and passion. But they both know there are lines. So they don't have to worry. They won't ever have to commit to each other.

(More later!!)

[> [> [> Re: This is a really great essay -- Miss Edith, 16:17:58 02/14/03 Fri

You're not the only one who sensed some contempt from Wesley. He certainty enjoyed needling Gunn, and suggesting Gunn couldn't give Fred what she needed. Perhaps part of him does believe Gunn isn't good enough for Fred, and she should have chosen Wesley as he is more of a match for her intellectually speaking. But then there is also as you say the fact that Wesley is consciously playing on Gunn's own insecurities on trying to break up him and Fred. Who knows what's really going through Wesley's mind. But I did pick up on the sense that Wesley does feel he is more suited to Fred.

[> [> Very enjoyable, thanks -- Arethusa, 07:33:53 02/14/03 Fri

I like the idea of Fred-as-innocent-Wes. I went back and reread Fredless, and it shows how the whole gang envied Fred's close ties to her parents. I can see how Wesley might think that if he had the same support and love as Fred, he might have been much happier and more successful.

Wes: " They loved her. - Supported her. - Didn't grind her down into a - tiny self-conscious nub with their constant berating. Their never ending tirade of debasement, and scorn and..."

I can also see more evidence for the idea that Fred was attracted to Gunn for the support he gave her. (Besides the fact that he's such a honey.)

Fred [re Angel and Buffy]: "But you said he loved her. And of course she's gonna love him back, because he's so strong and handsome and he really listens when you talk. I-I mean, if you go for that sort of thing, why wouldn't it work?"

Lorne: "Easy! Easy! Forget the singing, sweetheart. Your aura is practically screaming! - Yeah, you are in a bad place, aren't you doll? - You thought you could outrun them - and maybe you were free. - But those old monsters hunted you down. - I know why you're running away, Fred. You know what your problem is?"

Fred: "I'm not strong enough to stay and face my fear."

Lorne: "No. You haven't run far enough."

quotes by psyche

[> [> [> welcome, and thanks -- Scroll, 08:01:20 02/14/03 Fri

Yeah, I realise my insane theory is pretty much a stretch of the imagination in most areas, but I'm pretty secure in the Fred likes Gunn because he's a strong protector aspect of the theory. Like Rah says, there's more to their relationship than mutual protector/protectee benefits, but I think this definitely plays a major role to start off.

I should dust off my copy of "Fredless" and give it a whirl. Wes does envy Fred her parents, so at least that kinda supports my theory. I must admit, Fred = innocent-Wes is my most tenuous point. It makes Wes sound very narcissistic and creepy, seducing himself to the dark side. I mean, why would he do that? Doesn't make sense!

And I don't know why it is that I don't believe in Angel pairings the way I do in Buffy pairings. They're certainly more logical and have firmer basis in the characters' psyches than, say, Willow/Kennedy. Maybe I'm just more lenient with Buffy characters because I see them as younger and more prone to leading with their hearts, getting crushes on people, and doing the light-hearted flirting, get coffee kind of dating. Not so much with Angel.

[> [> Scroll, I really like your theory! -- ponygirl, 07:52:11 02/14/03 Fri

But then I always liked the Wes/Gunn friendship more than the Fred triangle.

As Rah notes there has been a note of contempt in Wesley's attitude towards Gunn lately. While I think a lot of that is hurt feelings, I also think that Wes is as you say narcissistic and right now he's really really liking himself. Sure he's bitter over the loss of the AI family, but at the same time he's achieved something he always wanted. He's the cool guy, the rogue demon hunter for real this time: he's led an effective team, established underworld connections, he even got the enemy to fall in love with him. He became Angel in a way, again something I think he always wanted. It's something Angelus picked up on when he commented on Wes' attractiveness and how Wes was so eager to take him on. Wesley wants to take everyone on, to prove how far he's come by going against Angelus, and by provoking Gunn into a fight. But how much is really Wes and how much is the image he's created? After all he keeps being horribly mistaken, and it's Gunn who steps up when Angelus escapes.

Great essay, Scroll!

[> [> [> Wow, that's a great point -- Scroll, 08:16:56 02/14/03 Fri

I also think that Wes is as you say narcissistic and right now he's really really liking himself. Sure he's bitter over the loss of the AI family, but at the same time he's achieved something he always wanted. He's the cool guy, the rogue demon hunter for real this time: he's led an effective team, established underworld connections, he even got the enemy to fall in love with him. He became Angel in a way, again something I think he always wanted.

This is an excellent observation! I missed this entirely; even though I thought Wes was being narcissistic, I didn't really understand why but this really explains it. Yes, Wes has recreated himself much like William the Bloody Awful Poet created the Spike persona. A new, cooler persona who didn't need friends or family, someone who was rough and independent and down-and-dirty, everything pre-throat slashing Wes wasn't.

Yeah, Wes has been taken down a notch or two, hasn't he? His ideas are not bad but they've really back-fired and Gunn is doing his best to do damage control. I really want to see the rift between these two healed. I'm more worried about the Wes/Gunn friendship than I am about who gets Fred. Forget Fred! As long as you two boys have each other, the world's a happy place. And I'm a happy slasher!

[> [> [> [> Courtly Love -- Rahael, 08:36:51 02/14/03 Fri

And here I'm really tempted to pull out Georges Duby's thesis that when the chivalrous knight made courtly love to the wife of his Lord, he was really showing his love for his Lord, not the woman in question. It's a male bonding thing. The woman is actually only a symbol. She stands in as a way for love to be expressed. A slasher could see this happening with Wes/Gunn, though I think it would have been even more applicable say, if Wes had gone after Angel's love interest.

I'm really simplifying - there was a much longer discussion of this way back, and I can remember discussing this with Fresne and others.

It's also interesting where and how Gunn/Fred really got together, in the enchanted theatre of WitW. Wesley, as he has done before, hesitates, and hesitates and with that, loses all. He's the one who is waiting, perhaps frozen by old assumptions and insecurities. Even though Cordy gave him a lot of encouragement.

[> [> [> [> [> Hey, what's with the mind reading? (spoilers for Angelus the Series thus far) -- fresne, 15:47:07 02/14/03 Fri

I was going to mention Duby and Courtly love and well actually I didn't have much more to say than - ooh, look homosocial bonding. Although, it's all the better since all three points are fully engaged in pulling something from the other two.

I feel like we need to plot a Visio flow diagram of the entangled: Fred/Gunn/Wesley/Angel(us)/Cordelia/Connor/Lilah (Mrs. Robinson). Alas, poor Lorne. He flirts, but slashes not. At least he's a snappy dresser.

If I had the brainspan (like handspan only squishy), I'd like to hold that flow in my head. I can't help but think that as we consider any of these relationships, we need to look at all.

And purely randomly, for some reason this Septangle makes me think of one of the lays of Marie de France in which a beautiful lady had four lovers, the best, handsomest knights in all the land. The writer treats it as this natural thing that of course the knights are the best of friends, who always fight side by side for their lady's honor. Until the day that three of four are killed in a tournament, while the fourth was injured in a manner that would prevent him from ever knowing the love of a woman. At the end of the story, the lady and her sole remaining knight discuss which of them is worse off. Her, since she's lost all her lovers or the knight, because he's lost his best friends and well, no more moments of pure happiness. I couldn't help but think that the three dead guys were the worst in the deal, but that's Courtly Love for you.

Anyway, tying into a lower thread, I'm not so sure that the world view difference between Wes/Gunn boils down to a difference of ends do or do not justify the means. Perhaps it's a matter of one valuing people and the other principles. Perhaps, I don't know. It does have the feel of a world view difference. And the bitter rancor from all parties does rather poison drip like scorned love. Then again, didn't Wesley loose his lover after taking a bullet for Gunn. Don't you love trying to map the human heart? Even hearts in RGB electric televised dots.

How to connect the dots between Gunn killed Seidel to protect the center of his world and he killed his sister to protect the world.

And I wonder what was Gunn trying to protect Fred from? Fred lived in a demon dimension. Had cause to roll the bodies into a nearby gorge. Builds devices that not so much make toast as decapitate. Not that I'm saying she did kill, but I wonder if they let each other in enough for him to ask her. For her to ask him. In a way, like new Noir Wesley, they were recreating themselves newer and washed clean for and in this relationship. However, when you show your lover only one of your masks, well, better make sure that the trunk where you keep the others is securely locked, chained, welded shut, lying at the bottom of the sunless sea. Even then things have a way of coming to the surface.

And where does Gunn's desire to be top dog and not a sidekick come in. Angelus taunts him that he knows his place. Therefore Gunn doesn't. Gunn was a leader. Now, it's Angel, when he wants it. Or Wes when he walks in the room. Or Cordelia when her eyes get that milky turn. Even Connor denies him, which I see as an indication of just how out of place and uncomfortable Gunn feels. Gunn was the leader of a gang. Surely, he encountered angry young men like Connor before. But the Gunn that we see in the first episode of the season doesn't know how to deal with Connor. Curiouser and Curiouser.

Well, let's throw well known casting spoiler into the mix. And other well known casting spoiler. Maybe Miss Raidan (cause I like her). Stir. Remap the relationship. See what happens.

[> [> [> [> [> [> "He flirts but slashes not" - LOL -- Rahael, 16:46:08 02/14/03 Fri

Alas poor Lorne indeed!

I also had an LOL moment with the Marie de France story.

Can you tell I'm really really happy at the moment. So many great posts. So much food for thought.

I especially loved this point:

How to connect the dots between Gunn killed Seidel to protect the center of his world and he killed his sister to protect the world.

And I wonder what was Gunn trying to protect Fred from? Fred lived in a demon dimension. Had cause to roll the bodies into a nearby gorge. Builds devices that not so much make toast as decapitate. Not that I'm saying she did kill, but I wonder if they let each other in enough for him to ask her. For her to ask him. In a way, like new Noir Wesley, they were recreating themselves newer and washed clean for and in this relationship. However, when you show your lover only one of your masks, well, better make sure that the trunk where you keep the others is securely locked, chained, welded shut, lying at the bottom of the sunless sea. Even then things have a way of coming to the surface.

Reminds me of the Robert Grave's poem "Spoils" where he says the spoils of war may be easily displayed, but the spoils of love cannot even be entrusted to a safe, for fear it burn a hole through two-foot steel. Rather like a Soul.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers up to Soulless Above -- Rahael, 16:51:11 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hey, what's with the mind reading? (spoilers for Angelus the Series thus far) -- Angela, 17:23:49 02/14/03 Fri

Gwen was another teller, possibly of truths. Hard to say yet. She asks good questions. Yet she was the most likely person to fiddle the electric. But I anticipate her return faith-reminiscent as she was. What does Gunn know? He's only told us that he knows he can't anymore; the spirals unwinding and Gunn adrift from his Fred mooring. Yet in the vacuum and what must have been pain, he did show more of the leader than we've seen recently. Interesting times ahead.

[> [> thoughts on Wesley -- purplegrrl, 09:07:08 02/14/03 Fri

A few rambling thoughts on Wesley and relationships:

Could Wesley's trepidation about making initial romantic contact with Fred have anything to do with striking out big time with Cordelia? They thought they were very hot for each other but when they kissed, no sparks. Perhaps Wes is not emotionally prepared for another workplace relationship gone bad. (Which, in an odd way, could explain his attraction to Lilah -- if/when it goes bad, he still gets to hate her for being the enemy.)

Wesley and Gunn's friendship, for me at least, is strictly a workplace relationship. They have very little in common, other than an attraction to Fred. They don't like the same things, don't hang out together.

For me, Wesley has always been rather neuter. Handsome enough to be attractive to women and men, but having no strong feelings himself in either direction. I think this stems from his overbearing father, who still on some level controls Wesley's actions, thoughts, emotion, reactions.

Wes was initially attracted to Cordelia because of her physical beauty (someone every man seems to want), but it was not enough to build a relationship on. He was attracted to Fred because her love of books, research, and knowledge was very close to his own (someone Wes' father would approve of), but he couldn't get over his "blueberry scone-ness" long enough to make a move. So Wesley has a relationship with Lilah, which sort of gives him the best of both worlds: physically attractive and very smart. But because she belongs to the enemy camp he can drop her flat without a shred of remorse. (I think Wes was attracted to Lilah more than he would like to believe.)

[> [> That disagreement in There's No plc like Grlbzt (Spoilers to Calvary ATs and also First Date Btvs) -- s'kat, 10:26:36 02/14/03 Fri

And to think I had to post that theory twice, before voy would take it. I pretty sure it was in my response to Rah in the defence of Gunn thread.

Now confession time - I'm a Gunn/Wesley shipper. I miss their friendship and I think those two actors next to Wes/Lilah have the best overall chemistry in the show.
Why can't ME go there? They went there with Willow and Tara? Methinks I see a double standard buried somewhere in there.

At any rate - I think it's even more complicated than you plot out. I think Wes loves both Gunn and Fred, partly for the reasons you've mentioned but for other reasons as well.
I also don't see Gunn nearly as selfless as everyone else does, I see him as a bit greyer, a bit more complex. This is a guy who sold his soul for a truck after all. Someone who got off on being the leader for his gang and hates the fact he did and is struggling with deep issues over that including and not limited to the death of his sister.

I do however think that Fred and Wes idealize Gunn, somewhat in the same way a good portion of the fanbase seems to. Angel and Cordelia however - don't. Angelus wasn't surprised that Gunn killed Seidel sort of amused him.
Although maybe Angel was a little surprised.

Let's go back to Awakenings shall we? In Angel's dream, Gunn is viewed as a kid who likes to play with weapons and sticks by the homefort. Angelus plays with him like a toy in Soulless to get to Wesley. Gunn lets himself be used until he hurts the woman he loves and realizes that he must break off the relationship and get out of the triangle or Angelus will continue to be able to use him in this manner.
Gunn, unlike Wes or Fred or Cordelia or even Angel - has had to fend for himself his entire life. He's had to deal with people using him. Drug dealers. Vampires. Human criminals and demon criminals. He has in the past sold off pieces of himself to keep his people safe.

When we first meet Gunn way back in Season 1 Ats - he is barely protecting his group from a vamp nest. He doesn't trust Angel, but he does eventually let Angel help.
Later he agrees to help Angel break into W&H. And as the episodes pass...he joins AI and agrees to work for Wesley.
A good decision - since Wes jumps in front of a bullet for Gunn in The Thin Dead Line - a bullet that was partly caused by Angel's actions in the episode.

The disagreement Wes and Gunn have in There's no Place Like Pltz Glrb is important to mention here because it is the same disagreement that they have in Awakenings, Sleep Tight, Forgiving, The Price, and Supersymmetry. And if Gunn knew what Wes did to rescue Angel in Deep Down - that disagreement would happen again. It is also the same disagreement he had with Wes/Fred in Long Days' Journey and with Fred in Supersymmetry. It's this disagreement that lies at the root of Fred and Gunn's problems. And ironically enough it is this disagreement that is the reason Wesley lost Faith way back in Season 3 Btvs Consequences and it's this disagreement that Angelus throws in his face. It's also why Angel doesn't completely trust Wes and it was so important to Angel for Wes to be the one to apologize in his dream.

What is this disagreement? It's Do the Ends Justify The Means?? Gunn has learned from experience they don't. He has paid for ruthless acts. Selling his soul. Etc. And he is willing to pay the price for them. In There's No Place Like Grbltz - Wes is willing to sacrifice their lives, everything to help the refuges. He is willing to kill Angel, himself and Gunn, to get those people free. Even a few of the people if need be. Wes makes clear to Gunn in this episode that he is willing to use any means necessary to justify a "good" end. Remind you of anyone?

The Watcher's Council. Giles and Wes share this. As do all the Watchers. As Quentin Travers states in Helpless - we are fighting a war here - we can't afford to be nice, we must use any means necessary. This is a recurring in both shows in everything Joss Whedon does actually. See Firefly - it shows up there too.

In Machiavelli's The Prince - the lead character believes very strongly that the ends justify the means - but if you know the history of Machiavelli, you know that this is a fable...and where that can lead.

What happened to The Watcher's Council? What does Buffy say to Giles in First Date? "We don't fight evil by doing evil.
I know that much. That's not how it works."

Angel has learned this too...in Epiphany he realizes it.
And he tries to state it in Deep Down to Connor. You can't fight evil by doing evil without losing pieces of yourself in the bargain. Who are our villains? The Beast? The FE?

The whole Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle circles around this disagreement which is vitally important. It is the disagreement that lies at the heart of everything going wacky on both series. What are you willing to sacrifice, to do - to fight evil? And at what cost? And does that really fight it or just cause more?

Gunn killed Seidel to prevent Fred from doing what he saw Wes do. Wes understood Fred's actions but knew Gunn didn't understand them because - Gunn didn't understand why he "had" to do what he did. Wes and Fred come up with the portal spell in LDJ against Gunn's objections. Wes and Fred agree on the removal of the soul...Gunn is somewhat leery of it, but goes along with it. Fred understands why Wes did what he did in Sleep Tight and Forgiving. But she also believes he should have told him.

Wes was trained to do these things - he knows no other way.
But maybe he's beginning to realize something Giles may be beginning to realize - the ends do not necessarily justify the means. The price is too steep to pay. That is what Double or Nothing was partly about. And it is what Supersymmetry deals with. And it is that argument that lies at the heart of the struggle between W/G/F. The fact F & W
are bonding right now is they both believe the ends justify the means based on their experiences - Wes as naive scholar turned Watcher, Fred as a naive scholar turned slave trapped in a demon dimension. Gunn of the three ironically
gets it doesn't because of the three he has lived the consequences of such views and knows the cost. It's not that Gunn is more selfless - it's not about that. It's about where you draw the line - how you think evil should be fought and what you are willing to risk to fight it.

Not sure that made sense. But anyways my two cents.

Good essay Scroll. SK

[> [> [> The Faustian Pact -- Rahael, 10:51:21 02/14/03 Fri

I have run off to have dinner soon, but just a quick point.

I don't think selling your soul for a truck indicates ruthlessness. I think it indicates despair and poverty. I mean, in literature, people sell their soul for bigger things than a vehicle to use as a weapon against vamps. I think the smallness of what he asked for indicated a certain humility.

I also don't think he was managing as badly as you suggest, fighting the Vamps. They were very young. They don't have a slayer, and yet, they appear to fight more ably than the Scooby gang do (when Buffy gets back to Sunnydale, she finds the Scoobies attack Vamps one at a time as a group, 'Nighthawk' trappings and all).

[> [> [> [> ugh you're missing my point -- shadowkat, 11:14:51 02/14/03 Fri

Okay so I used some really bad examples - Darby's right Double or Nothing was a horrendous episode, making sense of it is like pulling teeth.

I was NOT implying Gunn is ruthless. You're preaching to the choir. I was implying he's not because he chooses not to be. (sigh)

My point: was that Gunn has had to make choices in his past which often came with a great cost and he felt badly about that. These choices aren't really spelled out so much as implied in the reactions of the character. We know very little about Gunn actually. But my theory is that he realized that the ends don't justify the means fairly early on. Which is why he doesn't agree with Wes, Angel, or Fred's actions.

They believe he's naive. He's not. They are. He knows these actions have horrible consequences and he knows that it is better to avoid them if at all possible. He's a bit more like Buffy in this way.

So you can stop defending him now, okay. ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: ugh you're missing my point -- slain, 13:58:42 02/14/03 Fri

No, Darby's not right! ; ) I liked 'Double or Nothing', so therefore it can't be all bad. I thought the main point of the episode was to demonstrate how much Gunn has changed since he sold his soul - how old was he when he did it? 16, 17? It could well be as much as 10 years ago. The soul has been used as a metaphor for many things - in this case, as a metaphor for hope. In his youth, Gunn didn't believe in hope, just in survival. Living from day to day and, other than his sister, not allowing himself to love, and therefore hold out any hope for the future.

Now he's changed; he's prepared to let himself look beyond the present. What's at the root of a lot of his insecurity at the moment is the conflict between this older self - which no doubt wouldn't have been able to hope that we could find love with Fred - and his newer self, which wants to hope for the future. Gunn sold his hope, because he didn't have any use for it - that he's willing to give it up again in the present, to repay his 'debt', demonstrates his fatalism; Gunn finds it hard to believe in love. He's presumably seen so many friends and family die that his instincts tell him to pull away. Wes, I think, is more innocent in this regard; he hasn't really suffered in his life, and up until Fred or perhaps Cordy in BtVS Season whatever, I don't think he's really felt love or its loss. Certainly not from his father.

Gunn seems most reminiscent of Angel, and Buffy again. All of them have loved in the past, and been burned, and all of them are cautious about accepting love again; Gunn loses his sister, Angel and Buffy manage to lose each other. They all have a problem with entrusting their hope, their soul, in another person. So Gunn, like Angel, perhaps like Buffy and Riley (opinions vary), decides to cut himself off, to make the break and retreat into himself. He makes the break not in this episode, but in 'Supersymmetry' - it's then that he retreats from Fred, by taking the decision of how to deal with Siedel away from her. He becomes like Angel, the self-made 'tragic hero' who doesn't realise that he doesn't have to take all the burden and guilt himself.

[> [> [> [> [> You are very correct! -- Rahael, 14:56:47 02/14/03 Fri

I read your post waaay too fast, and merged two sentences. So I did miss your point. Really sorry. Must have been irritating!!

My only excuse was that I didn't want to keep a friend waiting, but I also wanted to read your post :)

[> [> [> This is what I mean to say: That disagreement (Spoilers to Ats Cavalry and Btvs First Date) -- s'kat, 10:54:21 02/14/03 Fri

(Ugh the typos in the one above- read this one instead makes more sense.)

And to think I had to post my theory that Wes idealized Gunn twice, before voy would take it. I'm pretty sure it was in my response to Rah in "the defence of Gunn thread".

Now confession time - I'm a Gunn/Wesley shipper. I miss their friendship and I think those two actors next to Wes/Lilah have the best overall chemistry in the show.

At any rate - I think the W/G/F triangle is even more complicated than you plot out. I think Wes loves both Gunn and Fred, partly for the reasons you've mentioned above but for other reasons as well. And I think it all hinges on that disagreement you refer to but don't elaborate on in There's No Place Like Grbltz.

First off - I don't see Gunn nearly as selfless as everyone else does, I see him as a bit greyer, a bit more complex. (Good thing too or the character would bore me to tears, Mary Sue's we don't need). This is a guy who sold his soul for a truck after all. (Double or Nothing) Someone who got off on being the leader for his gang and hates the fact he did and is struggling with deep issues over that including and not limited to the death of his sister. (This Gang of Mine and the War Zone)

I do however think that both Fred and Wes idealize or have idealized Gunn, somewhat in the same way a good portion of the fanbase seems to ;-) Angel and Cordelia however - don't. Angelus wasn't surprised that Gunn killed Seidel, it sort of amused him. Although maybe Angel was a little surprised. (I think Angel identifies a little with Gunn's struggle but at the same time doesn't quite understand it. Gunn is so far removed from his realm of experience.)

Let's go back to Awakenings shall we? In Angel's dream, Gunn is viewed as a kid who likes to play with weapons and sticks by the homefort. Angelus plays with him like a toy in Soulless to get to Wesley. Gunn lets himself be used until he hurts the woman he loves and realizes that he must break off the relationship and get out of the triangle or Angelus will continue to be able to use him in this manner.
Gunn, unlike Wes or Fred or Cordelia or even Angel - has had to fend for himself his entire life. He's had to deal with people using him. Drug dealers. Vampires. Human criminals and demon criminals. He has in the past sold off pieces of himself to keep his people safe. (Double or nothing, The War Zone, This Gang of Mine, The Thin Dead Line)

When we first meet Gunn way back in Season 1 Ats - he is barely protecting his group from a vamp nest. He doesn't trust Angel, but he does eventually let Angel help. (War Zone) Later he agrees to help Angel break into W&H. And as the episodes pass...he joins AI and agrees to work for Wesley. A good decision - since Wes jumps in front of a bullet for Gunn in The Thin Dead Line - a bullet that was partly caused by Angel's actions in the episode.

The disagreement Wes and Gunn have in There's no Place Like Grbltz is important to mention here because it is the same disagreement that they have in Long Day's Journey, Sleep Tight, Forgiving, The Price, and Supersymmetry. And if Gunn knew what Wes did to rescue Angel in Deep Down - that disagreement would happen again. Big time. It is also the same disagreement he had with Wes/Fred in Long Days' Journey and with Fred in Supersymmetry. It's this disagreement that lies at the root of Fred and Gunn's problems. And ironically enough it is this disagreement that is the reason Wesley lost Faith way back in Season 3 Btvs Consequences and it's this disagreement that Angelus throws in Wes' face. It's also why Angel doesn't completely trust Wes and it was so important to Angel for Wes to be the one to apologize in his dream. (Awakenings)

What is this disagreement? It's Do the Ends Justify The Means. Gunn has learned from experience they don't. He has paid for ruthless acts. It's not that he hasn't done these acts - which is the fallacy both Fred and Wes seem to buy into, but that he has and has learned that it is wrong to do these things, the cost is too heavy and far outweighs the results. Selling his soul. Losing his sister. Losing people in his gang. In There's No Place Like Grbltz - Wes is willing to sacrifice their lives, everything to help the refuges. He is willing to kill Angel, himself and Gunn, to get those people free. Even if it means killing a few of the people to do so. Wes makes clear to Gunn in this episode that he is willing to use any means necessary to justify a "good" end. Remind you of anyone?

The Watcher's Council. Giles and Wes share this. As do all the Watchers. As Quentin Travers states in Helpless - we are fighting a war here - we can't afford to be nice, we must use any means necessary. This is a recurring theme in both shows, in everything Joss Whedon writes actually. See Firefly - it shows up there too. And in Toy Story.

In Machiavelli's The Prince - the lead character believes very strongly that the ends justify the means - but if you know the history of Machiavelli, you know that this is a fable...and where that can lead. Machiavelli does not get what he wants nor do his Princes. They lose more than they ultimately gain in playing by these rules.

What happened to The Watcher's Council? What does Buffy say to Giles in First Date? "We don't fight evil by doing evil.
I know that much. That's not how it works."

Angel has learned this too...in Epiphany he realizes it. Then later in The Price - the episode before (Forgiving) he's willing to do dark magic, torture a man, make a deal with the devil to get Connor back. Gunn argues with him and is not overly forgiving of his actions - remember? In fact Gunn almost stalks off more than once because of it. Fred is a little less upset. And Angel realizes Gunn is right in The Price when he nearly loses Fred and the Hotel.
Angel tries to state this in Deep Down to Connor.

You can't fight evil by doing evil without losing pieces of yourself in the bargain. Who are our villains? The Beast? The FE?

The whole Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle circles around this disagreement and that is vitally important. It is the disagreement that lies at the heart of everything going wacky on both series. What are you willing to sacrifice, to do - to fight evil? And at what cost? And does that really fight it or just cause more?

Gunn killed Seidel to prevent Fred from doing what he saw Wes do. What he tells her over and over again in that episode is the ends don't justify the means - the cost to your soul is not a price I'm willing to pay. Wes understood Fred's actions but knew Gunn didn't understand them because - Gunn didn't understand why Wes felt he "had" to do what he did. Wes and Fred come up with the portal spell in LDJ against Gunn's objections. Wes and Fred agree on the removal of the soul...Gunn is somewhat leery of it, but goes along with it. And Gunn calls them on it Cavalry. Fred understands why Wes did what he did in Sleep Tight and Forgiving, even if she wishes he'd told them about it.

Wes was trained to believe the ends justify the means by the Council - he knows no other way.
But maybe he's beginning to realize something Giles may be beginning to realize - the ends do not necessarily justify the means. The price can often be too steep to pay. The price can often lead to worse evil. Ie. Losing Gunn's soul over a truck? Even if the truck saved countless lives. That is what Double or Nothing was partly about. And it is what Supersymmetry deals with. And it is that argument that lies at the heart of the struggle between W/G/F. The fact F & W are bonding right now is that they both believe the ends do justify the means based on their experiences - Wes as naive scholar turned Watcher, Fred as a naive scholar turned slave trapped in a demon dimension. Gunn of the three ironically realized that this is not true, not for the reasons W and Fred think but because he has lived the consequences of such views and knows the ultimate cost. HE knows what it does to you. It's not that Gunn is more selfless - it's not about that. He's just a little more mature because of how he grew up. It's about where you draw the line - how you think evil should be fought and what you are willing to risk to fight it.

Hopefully this version makes sense.
Good essay Scroll. SK

[> [> [> [> Gunn & Ends Justifies the Means (spoilers) -- Scroll, 11:41:54 02/14/03 Fri

What is this disagreement? It's Do the Ends Justify The Means?? Gunn has learned from experience they don't. [...] Wes makes clear to Gunn in ["There's No Place..."] that he is willing to use any means necessary to justify a "good" end. Remind you of anyone?

The Watcher's Council. Giles and Wes share this. As do all the Watchers. As Quentin Travers states in Helpless - we are fighting a war here - we can't afford to be nice, we must use any means necessary.

Very much in agreement with your observations. The call of whether the ends justify the means is something nobody is ever really going to resolve, and I think that's why it's such an endlessly fascinating debate.

Because as pacifistic, anti-gun, anti-war, anti-using people for a "greater" purpose as I am, I don't really know what I would do if I were faced with the apocalypse. In my position right now, safe and secure in a friendly, prosperous country, I totally agree with Buffy that "We don't fight evil by doing evil." I don't want a nuclear war. I don't think anybody will benefit from that.

But what if war has already been engaged, and you're down to the decisive moment when everything is on the line? If it meant saving a few million lives, would I commit evil that, under normal circumstances, I would never even dream of doing?

And I can't even say that Wesley's actions have ever been evil. Ruthless, yes. Paternalistic and even arrogant. But not evil per se. Hmm, maybe because I factor in motives when determining what is evil?

It's not that Gunn is more selfless - it's not about that. It's about where you draw the line - how you think evil should be fought and what you are willing to risk to fight it.

See, while I agree that Gunn has had consequences in his life and has decided/believes the ends don't justify the means, I think this decision/belief is something is something that needs to be negotiated at every turning point. It's not a once-for-all deal. Every time a decision has to be made, you need to reconsider the options. Not saying Gunn is wrong in his belief, but I would even go so far as to say his decision to kill Seidel was Gunn, seeing that ends don't justify the means (Fred killing Seidel), and yet taking on that end-justifies-means decision on to himself. Gunn is the one who is ruthless because he believes the ends (saving Fred's innocence) justifies the means (him killing Seidel). Not sure if that makes any sense, but there ya go...

Basically, I think Gunn does believe that the ends doesn't always justify the means, and that such thinking often leads to Bad Things. However, I think he's willing to negotiate that belief. I think killing Seidel is an example of that negotiation.

OTOH, Gunn has a hard time expressing his belief to Fred and Wes. Or worse yet, I've never seen him try to explain his position to anyone except in "Supersymmetry", and that speech was couched very much in terms of loving Fred, not really moral philosophy. (Which is at least keeping in character.) Until the writers find some way of proving to me that Gunn has really internalised a (previous) understanding of ends-justifies-means = Bad Things, and shows it on screen, I'm still going to have a glimmer of doubt that Gunn really does understand this. And that his understanding is what makes him upset with Wes and Fred.

One thing I found absolutely hilarious (and made me love and miss Lilah even more!) was her line about letting Angelus out to kill the Beast. And Cordy says, "But he'll kill us all!" And Lilah goes, "Yeah, but greater good!" I was just rolling on the ground! Damn, I miss Lilah... : )

[> [> [> [> [> LOL! I agree with you -- s'kat, 13:31:18 02/14/03 Fri

Gunn confuses me as a character b/c he contradicts himself so often. Probably confuses Fred and Wes too. ;-)

One thing I found absolutely hilarious (and made me love and miss Lilah even more!) was her line about letting Angelus out to kill the Beast. And Cordy says, "But he'll kill us all!" And Lilah goes, "Yeah, but greater good!" I was just rolling on the ground! Damn, I miss Lilah... : )

Me too! On both counts. What's great is that's Cordy's final line to Lilah.

Lilah: "He's really going to kill us all!"
Cordy:" Duh. Why do you think I let him out. You bitch."

Irony is ME's middle name.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Eternal Vigilance -- cjl, 14:37:51 02/14/03 Fri

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

-- Thomas Jefferson

I see Gunn's attitude about the responsibilities of power and whether the ends justify the means as part of a continuum from his first appearance in War Zone all the way to Supersymmetry. In War Zone, Gunn's credo as team leader was simple as, uh, black and white: stake as many vamps as you can, clean up the streets and get everybody on the team out alive. He bumped up against some ambiguities when he met Angel, and then had to stake his own sister, but for the most part, he stayed the course: Vamps Bad. Save the Team.

In "No Place Like Plrtz Glrb," Wesley's decision to send rebel soldiers to almost certain death opened up a new way of thinking for Gunn. After being stuck on street-level for most of his life, he was suddenly thrust into a broader conflict in an alien world. The rules were different. I didn't see a schism between Wes and Gunn here so much as Gunn seeing the burdens of leadership from an entirely different perspective.

The ambiguities of War Zone came back full force in S3. In "That Old Gang of Mine," when confronted with Gio's indiscriminate rampage through the demon community, he decided his old crew's ends did not justify the means. And yet, barely one year later, he killed Professor Seidel himself, rather than watch Fred send her old mentor to an almost certain death. He seemed to regress back to the street-wise version of Gunn of S1.

Why the change of heart? The difference, of course, was that Gunn loved Fred. As Scroll said above, his desire to save Fred from the moral consequences of murder overrode his own moral failsafes. But the action clearly haunted him and haunted Fred, and their relationship was doomed.

The quote above from Thomas Jefferson could apply to keeping our borders safe from the enemy, but just as easily applies to keeping a vigil so we don't succumb to our own self-righteousness. Scroll is correct--the choice about whether the end justifies the means is never settled "once and for all." It is always a negotiation, a case-by-case weighing of options, and it is almost never clear-cut. We must always remain aware of what we could lose in the bargain.

Was Gunn justified in killing Seidel? Is doing what he did for love a more convincing justification? I think this question will come up in Angel and Buffy as the season progresses...

[> [> Not insane, brilliant! Thanks. -- Caroline, 12:20:38 02/14/03 Fri

Buffy Fashion - Faux pas or symbolism? (spoiler First Date) -- tomfool, 08:01:54 02/14/03 Fri

My apologies to Honorificus if I'm intruding on her turf of fashion analysis, but indulge me a bit. I don't think anyone else has brought this up.

When Buffy showed up for her date with Wood in the lacey/spider-webby Stevie Nicks overcoat thing, most people said what the hell? Who is in charge of the wardrobe at ME these days? At least that seemed to be the general take of those reviewing the episode. So my question - is this just a major fashion gaffe or is it very deliberate symbolism?

For her first social meeting with Wood, Buffy's outfit consisted of a white strappy little top, then the LSWSNOT, then a black leather jacket. Walking down the alley, the overall effect of the ensemble is of a long overcoat that isn't quite all there, i.e., a shadow version of a long leather duster. She's meeting Robin Wood, son of NY slayer Nikki. Same slayer Spike killed. A slayer whose costume is defined by the leather duster Spike took from her as a trophy of his kill and symbol of his evilness.

So this one simple wardrobing decision serves to tie Buffy to Wood's mother and then to Spike. Buffy is a shadow of Wood's mother. Nikki's death was a defining moment in both Wood's life and in Spike's.

Spike symbolically left the coat and his evil ways behind last season in Seeing Red. Now the symbol of his evil, the coat, or at least a shadow of it, is coming back to haunt him. We've yet to see Spike confront his past, which is something that needs to happen before the season ends. The upcoming conflict with Wood will be the vehicle for Spike to face his past and make amends.

It's interesting that there seemed to be more comments about Buffy's clothes than usual. Willow says dress for the ambiguity. Buffy says to Spike after he tell her she looks good, "Traditionally, you wear something over this." And then she did. How would you describe the color of black lace? Something not quite light, something not quite dark - something ambiguous. As in gray?

Just rambling thoughts probably better left to the fashion endowed among you.

(Very OT - sorry, Masq) Is it totally naff to ask a guy to marry you? -- someone nervous, 08:04:03 02/14/03 Fri

Especially as I'm shy enough anyway, and old enough to know better, and feeling daft enough 'cos it's Valentine's Day and now I'm rambling. Hell. Sorry again, Masq.

[> Awww. Not naff at all -- Rahael, 08:14:25 02/14/03 Fri

Just pretend it's a leap year (is it? I never have a clue about these things!!).

Anyway What Would Buffy Do? Well if she ever got over her fear of commitment, I bet she would!

Rahael, who has a secret suspicion she knows who this is!

(and who also answered in case someone else on this board got the wrong idea and got really really nervous. LOL)

[> [> This is exactly why . . . -- d'Herblay, 14:45:43 02/14/03 Fri

. . . I secured IP address checking privileges. Saves me those heart-stopping surprises.

[> [> [> Happy Valentine's Day to all, and Happy Birthday to one! -- LittleBit, 22:09:10 02/14/03 Fri

[> And on that Note Happy V-Day to the Board!! -- neaux, 08:25:03 02/14/03 Fri

[> And on that note indeed - Happy Valentines Day Existential Scoobs! -- Dedalus, 08:43:33 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> Ded!!!!!!! Good to see you ;) -- Rahael, 09:00:58 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Ded!!!!!!! Good to see you ;) -- Dedalus, 09:24:47 02/14/03 Fri

I have SO been neglecting you guys. But after reading the board the past couple of days, I see what I've been missing. What can I say? Between my Star Wars writing and my other writings and the full time Borders job and the forty-four hours of Buffy and Angel DVDs, life has been busy indeed.

Anyway, I certainly agree with you and Masq about now preferring Angel over Buffy. Never thought I would say that. But Angel has just left me picking my jaw up off the floor after every episode. Quite frankly, Buffy is the only character I feel really close to also, and not even her so much these days. I guess hell really is freezing over.

At any rate, I have got to post more, or at least chat more, that much is certain.

And for god's sake, someone has got to start organizing our ES Dragoncon romp in September.

Hugs and puppies,

Ded

[> As opposed to what? -- Masq, 09:01:40 02/14/03 Fri

Waiting for him to ask you? Old fashioned much? Thought we were way past those days.

Good luck!! ; )

[> I vote yes to the asking.... (Happy Valentine's Day to everyone, btw) -- LadyStarlight, 09:41:29 02/14/03 Fri

but then, I'm a hopeless romantic. (Some would just stop after 'hopeless', tho. ;) )

Good luck and best wishes!!!!!

[> Re: (Very OT - sorry, Masq) Is it totally naff to ask a guy to marry you? -- Random, 09:59:36 02/14/03 Fri

Speaking as a liberated (almost unattached, in fact) guy, I must say: go for it! Of course you can do the asking. Any guy who would have a problem with that, well.... Have a happy St. Valentine's day, ya'll

(p.s. you don't gotta get down on bended knee if you don't want to. Just tell him to do it, then propose while standing over him. Just to make it interesting, dontchaknow)

[> [> Speaking as a crusty old-fashioned guy... -- CW, 11:00:09 02/14/03 Fri

I agree. If you love each other, go for it!

Best wishes.

[> Go for it, nervous--and Valentine bites to all! -- luna, 11:11:03 02/14/03 Fri

I'll ask the moon to shine extra bright for you tonight.

I may have done that myself, with one of those husbands.

[> Worked for me -- 27 years and an obnoxious teenager later still works. -- Lilac, 13:08:08 02/14/03 Fri

[> [> Re: Always better to know -- Brian, 18:49:31 02/14/03 Fri

Thoughts on "Selfless" and "Slouching" (no spoilers beyond 7:5/4:4) -- KdS, 09:05:53 02/14/03 Fri

No UK-future spoilers in this post. I'm spoiled for everything that's been broadcast in the States, but please mark any spoilers for later episodes in responses, in case any unspoiled Brits are lurking in this thread.

"I would have nothing hurt thee but my sword"

William Shakespeare and John Fletcher, The Two Noble Kinsmen

Well, quite the best double bill so far this year. Selfless is the best episode so far this year, and straight into my all-time top ten, and Slouching Towards Bethlehem is pretty good as well. This is mainly going to be focusing on Anya and Conner, so if you hate both of them, stop reading now.

A few months ago, before this season properly started, I wrote a rather dark post comparing Anya to someone who has committed appalling crimes as a committed and idealistic member of some totalitarian political or fanatical religious movement. I now feel that I hit the nail on the head. Anya's relationship with other vengeance demons seems to be an attempt to split the difference between keeping Anya as an even vaguely sympathetic character and not completely ignoring her one-dimensionally Evil persona in The Wish. Anya seems to have been your stereotypical apparatchik, desperate to belong and committing herself utterly to the beliefs of anyone who accepts her. While the other vengeance demons seem to be out for pain and death, consciously using justice as an excuse, Anya genuinely believes the propaganda. She really believes that she was an instrument of justice, and that the sufferings of innocents was merely collateral damage. Unfortunately, her time as a human has sensitised her to human pain, and she can't do it any more. She sets a lethal demon on the fratboys almost as an experiment to see how it makes her feel, and it's impossible to doubt the outcome. She doesn't try to run, to seek help from her fellows. She just hangs around Sunnydale waiting for Buffy to do what's she's gotta do - and I really felt overtones of all those Westerns where two characters who'd rather be doing almost anything other than fighting each other are driven by their conflicting loyalties to a deadly climax. However, what we get is another example of ME's refusal to accept the shortcuts for redemption in more romantic and less tough-minded series - redemption by theatrical martyrdom is simply suicide, with no redeeming features, as we saw before with Angel in Amends and Reprise.

On the other hand, Willow isn't trying to deny what she's done, but instead tries to bring Anya to the same understanding she has. I don't follow some posters here in believing that Willow's lack of constant guilt-ridden soliloquising shows a lack of remorse. Instead, I think that she's recognised that to dramatise guilt in such a way months after the crime merely attracts unearned sympathy. She's in the same place as Angel during his best moments, recognising that there won't be any big supernatural cleansing - that the only thing she can do is to live as best she can now and not do it again.

I feel a lot happier about Buffy this season after seeing the episode. Reading spoilers, I was in the camp that felt that Buffy's infamous "I am the law" line was a warning of incipient megalomania. What the spoilers didn't make clear was that it isn't spoken in a self-aggrandising way, but clearly in terms of a burden. I still feel that at some point this season Buffy will be tempted with the offer of dictatorial power to remake the universe according to her wishes, but I don't think she'll even come close to succumbing. As for Buffy's intentions when she got to the frat house - I think she was hoping that someone or something would intervene - but if D'Hoffryn hadn't arrived, she'd have killed Anya without hesitation. And really, I have to admit that I don't have a problem with that. On the other hand, it was highly satisfying to see Xander's lie in Becoming finally exposed, and boy did he deserve it after his posturing throughout the scene up to that point, as if Buffy's never had to deal with a loved one gone horribly off the rails.

One small point - I spent the whole episode having deep suspicions about that very large and ostentatious black pendant around Willow's neck. Is it some means of channeling her dark side with slightly less mental fall out?

Moving on to Slouching towards Bethlehem, I have equally good feelings about AtS at the moment. It wasn't a spectacular episode, but very nicely characterised and extremely funny in places (the "caffeinated blood" line being the humorous high point). It also strengthened my fascination with Connor. Forget Gunn, Connor's the real Nature Boy of AtS, and this episode he struck me as far more likable but even more frighteningly dangerous. He seems to have genuinely recognised the pain he caused Gunn and Fred by his deception of them over the summer, and his brutal honesty with Cordelia has surprisingly good results. On the other hand, he still bears all the signs of his savage upbringing. Buffy and Angel have both had their moments, but I don't recall any sympathetic ME character before capable of bludgeoning a tethered man with such utter lack of malice or even excitement - he beats the tethered commando with exactly the level of interest and emotion of an ordinary person chopping an onion. I can see more and more promise in him - but I still view him as the "good" ME character who I'd least like to turn my back on. Absolutely nothing he might do at the moment would surprise me - shock and horrify maybe but not surprise. It's also amusing how much his taste in residences - oversized, sparse, romantic and curio-filled - matches his father.

I also have gradually developing suspicions about Connor's connection with Cordelia, or the person now regarded as Cordelia. They're still inchoate, but I think that it is intriguing that Cordelia can't remember much about her past, that she has an immediate connection with Connor, and that Connor is the one among the cast who doesn't know much about her past.

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