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Angel 6.4 (Spoilers, natch) -- Kenny, 19:42:33 12/08/04 Wed

Yay, action packed episode! Where to begin? First, there's my favorite story of the season, Illyria/Fred. A veritable Jericho, she is, as her walls come a tumblin' down. I originally believed that we were going to see that Fred was still there, but now I see the possibility of something more powerful. Is Illyria feeling remorse over the life that was taken for her to come back? Is she recognizing what a powerful person Fred was and now feels pain over that loss? In all honesty, she knows more about Fred than any of the Fang Gang. The idea of her starting to truly feel that loss is an interesting thought.

I was wondering when we were going to see Anne and Gwen. Not sure we'll be seeing much more of Gwen, though. I had forgotten about Nina, so that was a nice little twist. I really wish Gunn will tell Anne the whole story that's led up to this. I understand why he'd rather not tell Rondell, but I think it would help for Anne to understand about W&H and everything that happened over the last year.

So things seem to be starting to spread beyond LA. Where's the Initiative? Where are the Slayers? It seems that both groups should be around if a major city is taken over by demons, if for no other reason than to keep the problem from spreading. An appearance by one of the Scoobs wouldn't be totally unwarranted here. Andrew? Even Kennedy? Eliza Dushku is available now, so is a Faith appearannce too much to ask for? I know it's Angel's story, but universal cohesion is still important.

Also, things really starting getting bad in July? Not sure how I feel about this. I liked the idea that this destruction was a direct result of Angel's plan. How do his potential allies feel when they find out that he caused this, that he forced evil forces into such action. I'm not sure I'm keen on him being relieved of that responsibility.

Finally, my wish list. Connor. I have a hard time believing he's sitting idly while this destruction is happening so close by. The PTB. I can't believe that they're done with Angel. Lilah. I'm not sure how she'd fit in, bit she needs to pay a visit. Maybe a seance where they quiz her about W&H's activities or something. Previews. I'm used to my "next week on Angel" trailers. It seems only fair.

And Wesley, dammit! You've teased long enough. You're waiting for the Illyria story to develop more, maybe? Whatever. Yeah, yeah, they've got a sorcerer now. Big whoop. He ain't Wes. Alexis Denisof needs work. I need a Wes fix. Everyone misses him, so why can't you just make everyone happy?

Again, great job, guys. Muchos enjoyment from this side of the screen.

Replies:

[> Putting on the Whedon Voice -- Dlgood, 21:21:26 12/08/04 Wed

I need a Wes fix. Everyone misses him, so why can't you just make everyone happy?

You don't need Wes - you want Wes. And the Mutant Existential Scoobies are in the business of giving what you need, and not what you want. And this being a Mutant Existential Scoobies project, and being Virtual Angel the Series Season 6, "just making eveyone happy" is probably and sadly off the menu.

[/Whedon]

[> [> Re: Putting on the Whedon Voice -- Kenny, 05:04:55 12/09/04 Thu

Actually, I checked with my doctor, and he said I was suffering from low Wes levels in my blood supply. Who knew it was a medical condition?

[> [> [> *giggles* yeah I think I got it too -- Angel's Watcher, 09:27:44 12/09/04 Thu


[> [> Re: Putting on the Whedon Voice -- LittleBit, 09:53:29 12/09/04 Thu

Yeah, but he lied about storylines.

[> [> [> Re: Putting on the Whedon Voice -- alliterator, 15:22:16 12/09/04 Thu

(Psst. So are we. Don't believe a word we say.)

[> [> [> [> Heheheh... -- Rob, 21:56:03 12/09/04 Thu

So how do we know you're not lying about being liars?

Hmm, but then if you're lying about being liars, then you are liars.

So that means you are liars. Or you aren't. Or...

Stuck in logic loop. Self-destruct in 5...4....3....2....1....*KABLOOM!*
Lost - anyone watch last night's ep who wants to.... -- Seven, 14:44:53 12/09/04 Thu

Explain it to me in great (I mean EXCRUCIATING) detail? I taped the show like I usually do, but my tape ran out about fifteen minutes into it. Yeah, that's about 3 minutes after the first comercial break. Jack (w/ Kate) and Locke (w/ Boone) just split up and Jack was arguing to Kate (again) about not knowing about her past... (he really regrets not hearing her story when he had the chance, doesn't he?)

Anywho, anyone up for an explanation? Or refer me to a site that will explain everything? I don't want to go to Television without pity cause I just want some detailed explanation as to what happened and what it might mean for the show. I'm not in the mood for (sometimes) wity comments. Anyone want to help a deprived boy out? (I really love this show)

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Replies:

[> Summary (Spoilers) -- Ames, 16:15:24 12/09/04 Thu

Both teams of trackers kept going, trying to catch up before dark.

Jack had a bunch of flashbacks about his father, to a time when his father had just started to drink and was botching operations at the hospital. Jack tried to cover for him, but was wracked with guilt over a pregnant girl who died on the operating table while Jack was trying to fix a fatal slip of the knife made by his father. His father almost convinced him to cover it up, but Jack couldn't do it - he spoke up and turned him in (which was probably what ruined his father's career and let to the incidents we saw in Jack's earlier flashbacks).

Jack and Kate kept going until it started to rain heavily and Jack slipped down a long slope to the bottom. The missing Ethan was waiting for him there. Ethan beat Jack and up and told him not to keep following, or else he'd kill one of the hostages. When Kate finally made her way down the slope, Ethan was gone (she didn't see him). They kept following anyway, and shortly came upon Charlie hanging from a tree, apparently dead. Jack lifted him up, and Kate climbed up to cut him down. Jack tried to revive him with CPR, without success. Kate told him to give up, and he almost did. But he tried again and Charlie revived.

Back at camp, Sawyer confronted the still-convalescent Sayid. Sayid looked like he expected Sawyer to take revenge for the torture incident, but Sawyer was cool about it. Sayid explained that he'd run into the French woman and been taken prisoner. He reported her comment that there were others on the island (not her own science expedition, whose members she had all killed), but said that he hadn't seen anyone himself - just heard noises in the junge.

Later Jack and Kate arrived back with Charlie, but Charlie wasn't talking. He was unresponsive to most of Jack's questions, just staring into the fire. But in the end he spoke up to say that he didn't remember anything. He said something about "them" (I think?), implying that there was more than one. But no futher details.

Meanwhile Locke and Boone had kept going through the rain. Boone asked how Locke could keep tracking, but Locke just said "can't you feel it?" and kept going faster. Finally Boone halted and said that he wanted to turn back before dark. Locke said he'd keep going alone, and tossed his knife to Boone. Boone dropped it and there was a hollow metallic "clunk" sound when it hit the ground. They pulled back the grass and found some sort of metal plate (?) that seemed to extend for quite a ways. We left them trying to uncover it.

[> [> Re: Summary (Spoilers) -- Vickie, 20:52:46 12/09/04 Thu

Great summary.

A couple of additional details, probably not important but with this show you can never tell:

Michael went south to search for Charlie and Claire. He didn't find them and returned to camp.

Hurley and ?theKid? played backgammon, and the kid won. This appeared to be a strong trend. The kid blew on his dice elaborately and seemed to be able to throw whatever numbers he needed. Hurley once played in a backgammon tournament and placed 17th.

[> [> [> the kid -- anom, 21:22:51 12/09/04 Thu

Walt said his dad ("Not Michael--my other dad") used to say he was the luckiest person he knew (not word for word--just as best I remember it). Gotta wonder if that means the crash was lucky for him.

This probably isn't important, but what Locke threw Boone that landed on--& revealed--the metal plate was a flashlight, not a knife. ("You need this more than I do.") Then again, it could be symbolic--casting light on the situation by landing where it did? Boone needs enlightenment more than Locke does?

Side note: This week's Village Voice has a rundown of what it calls "Screen Gems"--the few good shows on TV this season. It leads off w/Lost & has a still from this week's ep. It also includes Wonderfalls (as "the one that got away"), Veronica Mars, & Arrested Development & mentions Buffy & Angel. I think Joy Press is one of us! Gooble gobble!

[> [> [> [> Good points! -- Vickie, 07:33:38 12/10/04 Fri

I love the flashlight bit. I had forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me of Walt's name.

[> Re: Lost - anyone watch last night's ep who wants to.... -- Seven, 12:20:19 12/10/04 Fri

Thank you Ames, Vickie and anom!!!

I really wish that I had seen the episode now!!!!

The episodes are really starting to take on a serial format aren't they?

I hope the writers have a good idea of where they want to go with this...

The last couple episodes have strayed away from the wish fulfillment/thought creation aspect of the show.... Just noticing...

Again, thanks to all of you for filling in the blanks...all the points had significance for me....

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[> [> Re: Lost - anyone watch last night's ep who wants to.... -- Rob, 14:15:10 12/10/04 Fri

The last couple episodes have strayed away from the wish fulfillment/thought creation aspect of the show.... Just noticing...

Charlie's resurrection was *very* wish-fulfillment. In fact, for a while, I thought Jack was having a fantasy like Buffy did with Joyce in The Body, until it cut to commercial and I realized he actually did come back to life. Because it took a long time to cut Charlie down, they had now idea how long he'd been up there, when he tried CPR, it didn't work, and he just kept punching Charlie's chest, to no response, Kate crying and telling him to stop. He gives one last punch and Charlie gasps to life. That island is definitely up to something. ;-)

Rob

[> [> [> Re: Lost - anyone watch last night's ep who wants to.... -- Seven, 15:08:35 12/10/04 Fri

Yeah, I definately didn't get a chance to process the info...I didn't actually see the ep, remember, and besides that, I haven't seen much besides that of late. I bet there are definitely some things that I have forgotten over the last couple weeks, I guess I have either been caught up in the drama end of it all or they have cut back on some of the obviousness of it.

And Locke's constant mentioning of him "feeling" things might be another indication...

[> [> [> Re: Lost - anyone watch last night's ep who wants to.... -- Vickie, 15:47:13 12/10/04 Fri

I also had the impression that Walt's ability with the dice was a wish-fulfillment thing.

[> Lost - Daniel Dae Kim (also, 24) -- Jay, 18:05:42 12/11/04 Sat

I haven't been able to watch much of the show, but I think those who do might like this article.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/entertainment/columnists/cary_darling/10366205.htm

'Lost' & profound

By Cary Darling

Star-Telegram Pop Culture Critic

Aside from those weirdo wives who've taken over Sunday nights, the other new broadcast-TV drama that's got everyone talking -- that isn't the demon spawn of CSI or L&O -- is the one about those plane-crash survivors stumbling around their own island of Dr. Moreau. Lost, which airs at 7 p.m. Wednesdays on ABC, has been one of the water-cooler hits of the season, piling mystery on top of monsters and mayhem.

The fan adulation and speculation surrounding Lost (check out www.lostfic.com for the explosion of fan-fiction, some of it blue-state racy, based on the show) is reminiscent of the excitement The X-Files sparked in its early seasons.

But the case could really be made that Lost is just the new 24, the Fox real-time thriller about a federal agent and single dad staving off terrorism and world destruction, which has earned a loyal following since debuting in 2001. After all, both have the kind of fans who would rather be stranded on an island with only dial-up Internet access than miss an episode, and both feature sweaty guys named Jack trying to save lives.

So, with Lost on everyone's lips and 24 launching its fourth season Jan. 9, here's our version of connect-the-dots:

'Lost'

'24'

The heroes

Played by Matthew Fox (Party of Five), above left, he's a no-nonsense M.D. whose level-headed lifesaving skills and clear thinking are keeping everyone from going Lord of the Flies. But if he becomes Dr. Hyde when his supply of Bactine and bedside manner runs out, all bets are off.

Played by Kiefer Sutherland, above right, he's a no-nonsense agent whose level-headed lifesaving skills and clear thinking are keeping the world from going kaboom. Well, except for the time he spent much of a season strung out on heroin but, hey, nobody's perfect.

The backstory

One fan theory says that these survivors are the only ones left on the planet. But why is this ragtag band of nouveau Adam and Eves -- with a couple of exceptions -- so uniformly good-looking? Which airline were they flying on? Hot Air?

The world's lights might go out in 24 hours but, with our luck, the only survivors would be the flighty but appropriately T-shirt-clad Kim (Elisha Cuthbert) and the wild-eyed evil mastermind Victor Drazen (Dennis Hopper). Some Garden of Eden. Watch out for the mountain lions, yo!

The familiar face

Daniel Dae Kim plays Jin, right, the meaner half of what may be the world's angriest couple. Too bad Dr. Phil didn't crash-land with them.

Before he was juiced up as Jin, Daniel Dae Kim was agent Tom Baker. Little did he know that in a couple of years he'd be the one everyone wants to vote off the island.

The love interests

Get that Viagra out of the carry-on. Everyone just knows that romance is going to blossom between Jack and the island's hottest babe, Kate (Evangeline Lilly), left. Forget starvation, thirst, the threat of imminent attack and week-old stubble, there's always time for some noncable, 7 p.m.-Central-time lovin'.

Jack took time out from hunting terrorists and sweating to make time with Kate (Sarah Wynter), right. Yes, telling a woman her sister is marrying a terrorist is an aphrodisiac.

The time element

Though the show has been on several weeks, it's only been a few days in island plane-crash time. The minutes sure drag when you're being tormented by monsters, wild pigs and some crazy French lady.

Each episode is one hour in Jack's high-voltage life. But Jack should quit his high-stress job at CTU (Counter Terrorist Unit) and become a spokesman for his cellphone company: His phone lasts 24 hours without recharging. Can you hear me now?

The hot blondes

Clueless Shannon (Maggie Grace), right, is forever believing in imminent rescue, showing off her figure and hoping to get back to civilization in time to catch The O.C.

Clueless Kim (Cuthbert) is forever stalked by kidnappers, bad dads and tame wildcats and was probably brought over from The O.C.

The family values

It's not all babes and beasts at this carnivorous Club Med. Michael (Harold Perrineau) is using his island time to bond with estranged son Walt (Michael David Kelley).

Through threats of bombs and disease, Jack and daughter Kim have become closer. And there's nothing like a little nepotism -- Kim got a job at CTU last season -- to make the world safe for democracy.
The Emmy Presentation Game -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:26:29 12/10/04 Fri

As we all know, Buffy and Angel have been grossly overlooked by the Emmys. Aside from the makeup, costume, and special effect categories, the only mention either show has gotten in the Emmys was the writing nomination for "Hush". That got me thinking, whenever a show is nominated for "Best Show", a selection of scenes from the season is shown to the Emmy judges (as they can't be expected to watch every episode of every TV show). Now I'm not sure exactly how long or in what form these season samples take, but if you had to take a season of BtVS or Angel and select roughly half an hour's worth of footage from it to wow over Emmy judges, what would you pick? I've got some ideas, but not anything I'd want to post right away without thinking it over. Anyone got any ideas of what they'd put into such a compilation of footage?

Replies:

[> Actually... -- Rob, 15:38:25 12/10/04 Fri

...each show submits one episode from the season, and that is what is nominated and what the judges watch to vote.

Rob

[> [> Really? -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:20:13 12/10/04 Fri

So a TV show can make one great episode and twenty one horrible episodes and still win the Emmy for Best Drama/Comedy? That seems almost as flawed as how we elect presidents.

[> [> [> Re: Really? -- DorianQ, 18:39:15 12/10/04 Fri

Actually, I'm fairly certain a show sends in six episodes when they're nominated for best comedy or drama.

[> [> [> [> Did some research... -- Rob, 12:19:03 12/11/04 Sat

For the actor nominations, only one episode is submitted that the show believes features his/her best work.

For the best drama and comedy nominations, 8 episodes are submitted (much more than I suspected, and even more than you did!), and the voters are expected to watch all 8 of each series. It's doubtful that they all actually do, though, particularly since there have been issues with even Oscar voters not viewing all of the movies they are supposed to have.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Did some research... -- alliterator, 17:51:50 12/11/04 Sat

When Gillian Anderson won an Emmy, it was for Season 4 of The X-Files, not because she acted better (I think Season 3 was superior), but because there were more episodes that showcased her acting.

The problem with Buffy and Angel was that the episodes showcased all the actors - even really, really good ones like Passion, Hush, The Body, and thus none of the actors had an individual episode that showcased their acting ability (well, The Zeppo for Xander and Real Me for Dawn, but I don't think those were Emmy-worthy).
Did Buffy really kill Angel? -- Donovan, 12:47:53 12/11/04 Sat

Like most of you, I have been running through the past Buffy and Angel seasons and there is one moment that has been kind of bugging me and sparked a debate between a friend and I last night.

I feel at the end of the Buffy Season 2 where Buffy stabs Angel and sends him to hell that Angel doesn't really die. In the mythology of the show, Angel cannot die by being stabbed by a sword.... as proven when Lindsay stabs Angel in "Your Welcome" Season 5. My friend argues that being sucked into hell would have killed him, but I disagree. Connor and Holtz were sucked into a hell dimension and survived. Angel has gone into several other dimensions in his story and survived and it seems shady that he would die.

I know references are made that Buffy "killed" Angel throughout Buffy and Angel, but do you think that is what would have happened? Any arguments or comments are appreciated.

Replies:

[> i've always felt the same way -- ghady, 13:43:04 12/11/04 Sat

Every time buffy says "i killed angel" ("Selfless" comes to mind), i think to myself "err... no you didn't.."

I honestly have no idea why she says that.. maybe it's the "oumph" factor.. In sefless, screaming "I KILLED ANGEL" is much more effective than screaming "I SENT ANGEL TO HELL.."

or, from a psychodynamic-ish pt of view, maybe those are buffy's suppressed, unconscious feelings surfacing.. maybe, deep down, she really *does* feel like she killed angel, and only says it when she's feeling depressed and such.. i don't think she'd say it if she were having a rational conversation without the tears and the yelling..

[> [> Re: i've always felt the same way -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:07:15 12/11/04 Sat

Well, under many philosophies, Hell is one of the potential afterlives. Sending someone to Hell so that they can never come back could be considered killing them, if you take killing to be synonomous with "sent to the afterlife", and Hell to be an afterlife.

[> Problems of hindsight -- KdS, 15:24:44 12/11/04 Sat

At the point of Becoming there was no canonical evidence to suggest that a Hell dimension was survivable. And yes, the fact that Connor and Holtz can survive what is allegedly the worst of the Hell dimensions for sixteen-odd years causes some world-building problems.

[> [> yes, but angel came back alive, didn't he? -- ghady, 15:41:30 12/11/04 Sat


[> metal doesn't kill vampires, neither do physical hell dimensions -- Masq, 16:31:19 12/11/04 Sat

So no, she didn't. Unless Angel was dust, he's not dead.

I don't see the problem here, except that some of the characters used the word "kill", which was just a misnomer.

[> Re: Did Buffy really kill Angel? -- alliterator, 17:47:27 12/11/04 Sat

When Buffy sent Angel to Hell, she didn't think he was coming back. So she thought she had killed him and I don't think she ever got out of that mindset. Hence, the "I killed Angel" speech, followed by Willow saying, "And that all worked out."

[> Technically no, but close enough for government work -- Dlgood, 20:47:44 12/11/04 Sat


[> [> LOL, no kidding, like the half sack of concrete they used to cover over the Initiative..;) -- Rufus, 01:08:04 12/12/04 Sun


[> Shhh... the same thing happens in Dracula -- Pip, 01:09:20 12/13/04 Mon

At the end of the Dracula novel, after many examples of vampires being killed only by a wooden stake through the heart (followed by cutting off the head), Dracula is killed by two metal knives, one through the heart, and one simultaneously trying to cut his head off.

Joss may have been doing a riff on that; an emotional climax that feels absolutely right, but when you examine it closely, you realise the rules weren't followed. Buffy always thinks that she killed Angel because she knows she meant to, she intended to, she darn well stuck that sword in him. That he didn't actually die is immaterial. Equally, Angel knows that Buffy was prepared to (did) 'kill' him.

There was a technical reason for not following the rules completely, after all. ME wanted to bring Angel back next year {g}

[> [> Re: Shhh... the same thing happens in Dracula -- Dlgood, 09:42:51 12/13/04 Mon

And by the same token, even though Angel kills Darla in BtVS-1, she winds up coming back anyway thanks to W&H in AtS. Technically, Buffy didn't actually kill Angel -- but IMHO what she did was close enough to count.

[> Re: Did Buffy really kill Angel? -- Ann, 06:23:27 12/13/04 Mon

Death is really never defined is it? We get to see almost everyone again. They may not be in original form but we get to see them again. That is why Dawn was so tempted by "Joyce" in Forever and in CWDP.

Up until Fred and the potential destruction of her soul, we know that there is an after life of some sort whether it be by demon or offer. Souls get rearranged, deposited and withdrawn. Buffy was in what she called heaven. Angel was in what they called hell. There are dimensions that could be construed as both.

The world building they made in these series keeps death very flexible partly for story telling reasons and I think partly because no one really wants to define it.

I guess you get to choose your own definition of "death". What it would be for you.

[> When you send someone to hell and don't expect him to come back... -- BrianWilly, 12:25:53 12/13/04 Mon

...by all rights, he's dead. You've killed him, vampire or not. A hell by any other name is still hell. And the only reason he came back, other than for story purposes, was that either the Powers or the First (or, in my opinion, another force) made big with the intervening.

"Well, there's no record of anyone returning from a demon dimension once the...gate was closed. I can't imagine how it could happen or why." -Giles, "Beauty and the Beasts"

To Buffy, the emotional weight of the moment was such that he's gone and he's not going to be back...aka, he's dead.

Well, deader.

Well, if we're to believe Angel's version of the story, she didn't actually kill him. He signaled her with his eyes. Yup.

[> [> Re: When you send someone to hell and don't expect him to come back... -- alliterator, 13:19:52 12/13/04 Mon

And the only reason he came back, other than for story purposes, was that either the Powers or the First (or, in my opinion, another force) made big with the intervening
It's my personal theory that Jasmine brought him back, so that later on he would father Connor and pave the way for Jasmine to be born. It also ties into my theory that the First Evil and Jasmine were enemies, thus why the First Evil chose to attack the Potentials and the Watcher's Council at the same time Jasmine was preparing for her arrival (and the reason the First was content to have Angel kill himself).

[> [> [> Um... splainy? -- Wizard, 00:37:49 12/14/04 Tue

How do you relate the First Evil's offensive with Jasmine? If they were enemies I would get the First wanting Angel dead, but not attacking the WC and potentials. I like the idea, and it makes sense, but I would like to hear more, if you don't mind.

[> [> [> [> Re: Um... splainy? -- alliterator, 22:14:37 12/15/04 Wed

Well, here's the basic gist of it: Mesekh-tet, in the White Room in "Forgiving" said that she hated chaos - even though she was evil. So I figured there are two types of Evil: Orderly Evil (Wolfram & Hart, Senior Partners, etc.) and Chaotic Evil (Sahjhan, etc.).

Jasmine was Orderly Evil - even though she destroyed Wolfram & Hart, she did it methodically, performing her plan perfectly (except for a few kinks Angel and the gang threw in like killing the Beast).

The First Evil was Chaotic Evil - not really able to affect anything, it basically lies dormat within ourselves. But it is the First Evil - we are it and it is us. So what would be it's worst nightmare? That's right: world peace. No fighting, no violence, no evil acts.

And that was what Jasmine was going to bring about.

So they both made plans to take over the world - first the First tried to stop Jasmine's plan. It knew Buffy was essential to get Angel to LA, so it tried to get Angel to kill her and then himself. Nada. So it lies dormant for a while. The Eye of Beljox said it was the Slayer's resurrection that made it so the First could tip the scales - but if so, why wasn't it until a year LATER that the First started killing Potentials? It was waiting until it saw Jasmine's first move. (Which was probably Cordelia's ascension.)

So, the players were in motion: Jasmine would made an army of humans that loved her and the First would create an army of Ubervamps, each designed the destroy the other. To get rid of the kinks, the First destroyed the Watchers' Council and Jasmine destroyed Wolfram & Hart - two players which wanted to keep the status quo.

Who won? Well, technically, the First Evil, since it's still out there somewhere lying dormant and Jasmine is just dead.

Of course, this is all just speculation.

[> [> [> [> [> i agree 100%... too bad the writers didn't think of it.. that wouldve been ORGASMIC! -- ghady, 12:42:54 12/16/04 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> This might tie in with my pet theory... -- Rich, 18:43:50 12/16/04 Thu

... that the First wanted Spike to turn Buffy in season 7.
Evidence:

1. The First told Spike to "take" Buffy, not kill her.
2. The First didn't want the Turok-ahn to kill Buffy.
3. The First/Jonathon wanted Andrew to kill the potentials, but NOT Buffy, & told him that it wasn't time yet for Spike to do whatever he was supposed to do.
4. The First always works through others (Bringers, Spike, Caleb) - Buffy (if turned) would be the strongest agent it could possibly have.

Finally, if Buffy were turned, & had the scythe (found by Caleb, who worked for the First), she would be a natural leader of the Turok-ahn, especially with Spike to back her up. This would make the First's army much more effective in the war against Jasmine.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Very good theory, and does explain some of the seeming inconsistencies in the First's plan. -- Rob, 20:39:52 12/16/04 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And also ties in with my theory that Darla in S4 was actually the First -- ghady, 07:49:32 12/17/04 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Word! This makes sense! Thanks for the added explanation! -- Wizard, 22:44:44 12/17/04 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you, - and a further thought -- Rich, 10:27:29 12/18/04 Sat

One of the things that bothered me about the whole Caleb/Monastery/Vineyard/Scythe business was: Why would the First want to unearth the scythe in the first place ? If it wanted to keep the scythe from Buffy, it would have sealed it in concrete, not dug it up. The First's actions only make sense if it expected to use the scythe - which could only be done by a Slayer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thank you, - and a further thought -- Wizard, 15:57:52 12/19/04 Sun

Maybe that explain's the First's marked preference for Buffy's form: it thought that when it became corporeal, it could use the Scythe if it took the shape of a Slayer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: the First & the Scythe -- Rich, 23:18:23 12/19/04 Sun

I was thinking that the First intended to have Buffy use the scythe after being recruited into the First's army. But your suggestion would also work. You're right about the First seeming to prefer Buffy's form.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But you're forgetting... -- purplegrrl, 06:34:02 12/20/04 Mon

...that the "bad guys" are not always logical. And it's typical for them to want to possess the one weapon that the "good guys" can use to destroy them (and not necessarily just in the Buffyverse).

The First probably thought that by acquiring the scythe, that it could destroy the weapon, thereby denying the Slayer access to it. But, of course, the bad guys trying to get the good guys' weapon only makes the good guys fight even harder to defeat the bad guys.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Illogocal Bad Guys -- Rich, 14:17:06 12/20/04 Mon

I agree that the First wasn't always smart - for one thing, it repeatedly underestimated both Buffy and Spike. It tried to manipulate both of them, and ultimately failed. Even Spikes's "trigger" wasn't enough to make him turn against Buffy, or turn her against him.

OTH, the scythe could actually be an asset to the First (rather than a threat) if Buffy were turned, because then she'd be using it *for* the First.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Illogocal Bad Guys -- Rob, 22:06:13 12/21/04 Tue

I think the thing that really points to your theory being accurate is the fact that The First told Caleb not to follow Buffy, but that they'd just get the Scythe back later. Um, if they worked so hard to uncover it and keep it from the Slayer, why let her walk out with it? The idea that they had planned on having Buffy take it, and then wield it eventually as a vampire, though, makes sense, as then The Power That Is For Her Alone to Wield would be working in the service of The First. After all, even up to the end of End of Days, The First was still trying to get Spike to attack Buffy.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But you're forgetting... -- Rufus, 17:17:45 12/22/04 Wed

In season seven the group went back to their roots and what they really fought was themselves, the mirror to that battle The First. The First isn't about making Buffy a vampire (though, hey that would be okay to it) but in getting what it wanted in becoming corporeal. To further this goal it used each characters perceived weaknesses against them. Buffy was forced into a leadership role that was more General Patton then what she eventually ended up as (in sharing the power instead of the power being horded for one person). Willow was faced with the decision to use her power fearing the consequences would be as black as in season six. The first used everyones insecurities to get what it wanted, the ability to feel when it killed as many people as it could if made solid.

In going back to High School, or at least hanging out near it, each person was able to see how far they could come if they did the right thing. Sometimes to find out what the right thing is, you have to see both sides before choosing, or even make the choice to do nothing at all. Buffy found a new way for Slayers to be in that world, and that was empowered from the get go, not waiting for someone to die before the next Chosen one got all chosen. Buffy dumped the General Patton speeches, and risked feeling something for the Potentials, feeling the pain of any of their deaths, and that brought her to understand a new gift based upon sharing the power with everyone and becoming at last just a girl.

[> Re: Did Buffy really kill Angel? -- purplegrrl, 11:20:58 12/17/04 Fri

Yes, and no.

Although Buffy probably knew that stabbing Angel with a sword (even through the heart) wouldn't *destroy* him (turn him to dust), in Season 2 she (and we) didn't know that stabbing him and sending him to the Akathla-hell wouldn't kill/destroy him. (We are looking at this in hindsight -- chronologically nobody knew until Season 3 that Angel *wasn't* dead/destroyed.) And if Angel had stayed in Akathla-hell much longer, it might have actually "killed"/destroyed him.

Besides, when Angel was "spat out" of the Akathla-hell at the beginning of Season 3, he was really not Angel (at least not at we had known him) and he wasn't Angelus (although he had some Angelus-like behavior). For the sake of arguement, we could say that something in him *had* died.

Part of our problem with the word "kill" is that is used too broadly in the Buffyverse and lacks subtleness of meaning. Since a vampire is undead, you can't "kill" them, you must "destroy" them. We (collectively, not singling out anyone) have called the vampires in the Buffyverse "killers", when they are really predators (we just happen to take issue with their chosen prey!). Buffy has been called "Killer", although she prefers her "correct" title of "Slayer" (slay is more accurate for what she does -- I checked the dictionary).
THERE'S A SCENE MISSING FROM "END OF DAYS" on the DVD -- ghady, 09:54:01 12/11/04 Sat

i KNEW there was something missing from End of Days on my DVD.. but i didn't think it's possible.. so i checked the screen captures for EoD on buffyworld.com.. and i was RIGHT.. the short scene before buffy finds the scythe, where the bomb actually explodes and the girls are sent flying away is NOT THERE.. on my DVD, the episode starts with buffy finding the scythe..
WHYYYYYY?!?!?

Replies:

[> Re: THERE'S A SCENE MISSING FROM "END OF DAYS" on the DVD -- Ames, 16:45:45 12/11/04 Sat

You are correct, ghady. I checked the broadcast versions of Touched and End Of Days, and the DVD versions, and that scene is missing from the Region 1 DVD. It was mistakenly cut by the morons at Fox Video as part of their "Previously On Buffy..." deletion, similar to their screwup on the Angel S2 DVDs on "Over the Rainbow" where they also cut part of the opening scene.

[> [> ugh.. stupid fox.. -- ghady, 05:17:26 12/12/04 Sun


[> [> [> Re: ugh.. stupid fox.. -- Angel Aficionado, 08:47:25 12/12/04 Sun

I don't understand, why on the Region 1 DVDs do Fox cut the "Previously" section? And why do they NOT cut them on the UK version, I'm not saying I WANT the recap cut out, but it just seems stupid to do it for one set and not for another.
Could anyone clear this up? Is it to do with costs or something?

Thanks

[> [> [> [> Why cut PoB? -- Ames, 09:32:20 12/12/04 Sun

Fox Video has never given an official explanation as far as I am aware. Unofficially the reason is supposedly that Fox Video thinks that most people don't like "Previously on ..." segments on DVD. Apparently the thinking is that, since they already have the entire set of episodes on the DVD, the "Previously on..." is a waste of space and and an inconvenience to skip over.

So why do they have it outside Region 1 (North America)? Apparently there was so much protest from DVD buyers in Region 2 that they reversed their thinking and decided to keep the "Previously on....". There was plenty of protest in Region 1 too, so I'm not sure why they didn't extend the change to Region 1.

In fact it wouldn't be difficult to add a chapter mark after the "Previously on..." so that one button push would skip it, or even to add an "always skip" option to the menus, and the disc space consumed is not significant.

Just to repeat the reasons why they should have kept the PoB:

1. People don't always watch episodes in linear order on DVDs. For a story-arc series like BtVS, it's nice to have a brief reminder where the episode fits when you pick it out at random a year later.

2. New viewers being introduced to the series on DVD often don't start at the beginning - they watch a couple of the best episodes first. They need a brief introduction to what happened before.

3. Each PoB is a custom mix of scenes, voice-over dialog and music carefully designed to provide a succinct introduction to the current episode. Watch a couple carefully, and you'll realize that it isn't just the original scenes strung together. It's an original mini-production in its own right, and deserves to be seen. Some of them are up to 2 minutes long. Some of them are exceptional effots like The Gift 5-season montage.

4. Often the PoB and the opening scene of the episode were designed to fit together, with the PoB setting the mood (like the fast-flowing end of The Gift montage leading into the running scene in the alley). Jumping into the opening scene without the PoB is like listening to the main act without the warmup, or a symphony without the opening movement.

5. And of course, when they cut the PoB they sometimes screw up and cut the opening scene unintentionally. :-(

It really shows how carelessly they slap these DVD sets together. The guy cutting the PoB couldn't be bothered to take a minute to cross check against the end of the last episode, and nobody else bothered to check his work.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Why cut PoB? -- alliterator, 08:56:18 12/13/04 Mon

Often the PoB and the opening scene of the episode were designed to fit together, with the PoB setting the mood (like the fast-flowing end of The Gift montage leading into the running scene in the alley).
See, this is what pissed me off about the Season 5 DVDs - those previouslies were meant to be in the beginning of "The Gift." The music, the momentum all fit, going straight from the fast-paced previously into the alleyway. And the bastards cut it! Bah. At least they put it on the Season 7 DVDs - but it should have been at the beginning of "The Gift."

[> What you can do -- Ames, 18:02:29 12/12/04 Sun

You can download my compendium of all the S7 "Previously on Buffy..." segments from
http://amesdp.spymac.net/Pob7.avi

(warning: it's 85 Mbytes, and it will be pretty slow)

[> [> Help? "AVI" video? -- frisby, 03:24:14 12/13/04 Mon

I downloaded it but couldn't get the video to play in real or ms media -- just the audio. And it was over 80 mgbytes. Is something special necessary to view it?

[> [> [> Re: Help? "AVI" video? -- Ames, 07:45:43 12/13/04 Mon

It's encoded with XVid (MPEG-4) for a best compromise of size vs. quality, so you need either a DivX codec or an XVid codec to play it (both free, and an essential addition for Windows - see www.videohelp.com or www.doom9.org for additional information on digital video and codec downloads)

[> [> [> [> It worked! Thanks! -- frisby, 02:36:56 12/14/04 Tue

It worked. I can see the previously's now. Thanks a lot. I wonder how you did this? Amazing world we're moving into---

[> [> [> [> [> Half-size version -- Ames, 07:04:16 12/14/04 Tue

Lots of work.
I compressed it further, to about half the size (42 Mbytes) without looking too bad. I'm uploading that version now.

I'm gradually accumulating the PoBs and PoAs from all the other seasons too, and I'll string them together when I have time. It would be easier if I had the Region 2 DVDs, but hey, we work with what we've got.

[> So if Fox cut the PoB . . . -- purplegrrl, 15:09:08 12/16/04 Thu

So if Fox cut the "Previously on Buffy..." segments on the DVDs, then they really messed with one of my favorite segues from Season 4:

At the beginning of "Doomed" the PoB is from "Hush". At the end of "Hush" Riley and Buffy sit down, agreeing that they need to talk. The beginning of "Doomed" uses that final "Hush" scene and just moves forward as Riley and Buffy talk.

How does Fox justify "ruining" the director's/producer's/Joss' "vision" of the show? Or do they just not care?

[> [> Yeah... -- Rob, 18:58:15 12/16/04 Thu

...I recall the opening of that scene on the DVD being quite awkward. It starts really abruptly and seems not well edited, obviously because the last scene of the previous episode was supposed to run right into it.

Rob

[> [> Re: So if Fox cut the PoB . . . -- BlackStar, 05:27:16 12/20/04 Mon

I just received the Region 2 complete DVD set and the PoB's have been removed. So far (up to season 2) it hasn't disturbed my viewing, but I am watching the episodes in order.

[> [> [> Season 2 PoBs also missing in region 2 -- Ames, 07:33:22 12/20/04 Mon

Fox Video did cut out the PoBs in Season 2 for all regions, including region 2. They began leaving them on the DVDs for region 2 only in season 3.

By my count there were 9 PoBs up until season 3 (not sure about Prophecy Girl, so it might be 10). The only PoB included on all the DVD sets is the Season 1 overview PoB on When She Was Bad, the first episode of season 2.

The PoBs I know of in the first 2 seasons are:

Season 1: Angel
Season 2: When She Was Bad, Halloween, What's My Line Pt. 2, Innocence, Passion, Killed By Death, Becoming Pt. 1, Becoming Pt. 2

[> [> [> [> Thanks for clearing that up (and changing the msg. subj.) -- BlackStar, 10:56:56 12/20/04 Mon

Too quiet. We need an insane, unsubstantiated internet rumor: Joss to write/direct WONDER WOMAN! -- cjl, 13:40:39 12/14/04 Tue

From Hercules at Ain't it Cool.com:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer mastermind Joss Whedon may write and direct a big-screen Wonder Woman ? While Fox is still secretly pursuing Whedon for X-Men 3 ?!

I tell you it s crazy enough to be true!

This could be a hoax, but I find it at least a little hard to believe anyone would go to the trouble of making up something this unbelievable! Moreover, this source seems to have the knowing of much, and is aware that, back in October, Whedon told the world that Fox never approached him about directing a third X-Men feature.

Of course, October was a long time ago. Simon Kinberg (he s the fellow who did those uncredited rewrites for Catwoman and Charlie s Angels: Full Throttle ) has probably had time to turn in his draft of the X-Men 3 script.

So file this under rumor. But if it turns out to be true, remember you heard the Whole Whedon Wonder Woman What here first....


Dear Moriarty, Harry and Herc:

I've sent in the odd movie review to Harry before, but never something like this. This is so good, so COOL - and so confirmed by multiple sources (hey, people hang out with work friends), that I wanted to give Ain't It Cool the world exclusive on this.

Joss Whedon is in final negotiations with Joel Silver and Warner Bros. to write and direct WONDER WOMAN for Summer 2006. Joss Whedon. Joel Silver. WONDER WOMAN. 2006. That's right, baby! Ain't it cool?

The only possible thing standing in this picture's way is X-MEN 3. I know what's been said, but Fox is still coming after him hard to direct that, and that's a tough thing for a guy like Joss to pass up. But he probably will. For WONDER WOMAN.

Call Joel Silver and ask him about it. I'm serious, this is very real. Negotiations are ongoing, but this could break in the trades any day. Guys, I'm giving you the exclusive because I'm such a fan of your site, but in a day or two, I'm going to send the info to other places as well...I'm that psyched about it, and I think that Joss's legions of fans should know how close they are to to gold-braceletted greatness.

So anything else I can do to prove my rightousness, email me back and I'll do it. Do your due diligigence, call Joel Silver, call anyone you want, and get this news out there. Because you guys deserve the exclusive, and the world deserves Joss Whedon's Wonder Woman.

Keep up the great work!

[spy name withheld]

Replies:

[> that would be amazing! (if true) -- anom, 21:25:13 12/15/04 Wed

How long before we can know if this rumor checks out?

[> Or bring Claudia back!, or not. -- lakrids, 08:46:19 12/17/04 Fri


[> [> Re: Or bring Claudia back!, or not. -- skeeve, 13:03:03 12/20/04 Mon

She'll be back as the tenth Doctor.
Rather more advance planning than one would expect.
has anyone read THIS?!?!?!!? it's... i dunno how to describe it.. -- ghady, 14:48:55 12/14/04 Tue

http://www.buffysdomain.com/chosen/

it's NOT the alternate fanfic chosen.. it's sthg else.. i dont know how i feel abt it.. i found it on that site..

Replies:

[> put very simply I think its crap....a sad fan wank(NT) -- Jean, 19:39:29 12/14/04 Tue


[> [> hmmm.. actually (after sleeping on it) -- ghady, 07:15:02 12/15/04 Wed

ok, this would make either the best or the worst two-part season opener for a hypothetical Dawn series.

i liked the First in here.. i liked what It said.. i wasn't bored for one second with what It was saying.. but the biblical references were just TOO much.. (though i like the "i have a thing for carpenters in general" or sthg line)

i HATED the idea of catherine whats her face.. i usually like continuity, but this was LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME..

back to the first.. one of the reasons i loved its little encounter with dawn was bcs i actually BELIEVED it for a minute.. i kept on saying to myself "come on dawn.. do it.. accept.." then id think "maybe it's a trick! or not.. ughhh!!!! maybe this is the first trying to be OmniPatient for once.." so i liked that..

didn't like dawn's CONSTANT kidding around.. like almost ALL the time, shed say sthg funny..

GABE? wtf? what is he? where did HE come from?!?!

"it's about love"... dunno how i feel about that.. too preachy for me..

and i didnt care for the exaggerations of chao ann's speech.. sure, funny, but on the actual show, she NEVER spoke like that.. this should DEFINITELY be toned down..

oh well..

[> [> [> also, no Faith.. never a good thing when dealing with the Slayer Line.. -- ghady, 10:23:54 12/15/04 Wed

OBAFU has a new chapter! -- Jane, 17:40:55 12/14/04 Tue

HonorH has added a new chapter to her Official Buffy and Angel Fanfic University saga! Hurray! For those who don't know it, HonorH has created a "university" which is both a very entertaining story about fans of Buffy and Angel, and a marvelous educational tool for writers of fanfiction. It's posted over on fanfiction.net. Check it out.
Thanks H! It's good to have more OBAFU.

Replies:

[> Here's a direct link -- LittleBit, 22:05:35 12/14/04 Tue

OBAFU
Smile Time Angel Puppet in April 2005!! -- curious, 06:05:34 12/15/04 Wed

Not sure if this has been mentioned here before but I found the "Smile Time Angel Puppet" for sale at the link below while doing some online shopping. It is available for pre-sale and should arrive in April. $49.95 plus shipping and tax in California. It looks like the toy store is in North Hollywood. I don't usually look at the collector stuff but I thought this was pretty cool.


http://www.entertainmentearth.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DC60576

Replies:

[> Re: Smile Time Angel Puppet in April 2005!! -- nibblet, 19:15:52 12/15/04 Wed

It's been a few months since I've watched Smile Time but....that looks nothing like the Puppet Angel I remember :-S

It would be such a cool thing to own! I think the shipping to New Zealand would be a bit of a bitca though.

[> Re: Smile Time Angel Puppet in April 2005!! -- purplegrrl, 14:58:56 12/16/04 Thu

Another place that has the Angel puppet for pre-order is Power Star. Their website is www.tvmerch.com. Click on Enter Store, then click on the Angel logo. It may still be listed in the New Items section.

From what I understand there is a limited number of these puppets being made.

[> [> Thanks for the site. Better description -- curious, 17:15:13 12/16/04 Thu

Thanks. Your site has a much better description. If it really is a half size replica - it should be pretty cute.

SMILE TIME ANGEL PUPPET HALF SCALE REPLICA

From the imagination of series creator, Joss Whedon came one of the funniest epsiodes in Buffy or Angel history. "Smile Time" in which the brooding and ever-serious vampire with a soul was transformed into a puppet! This plush replica measures just over 21" high and is an exact 1/2 scale version of the prop puppet used in the episode. Featuring a faux leather coat, boots and a mouth that opens and closes (for that full puppet brooding effect). "Smile Time" Angel comes packaged in deluxe window box packaging. We have had numerous requests for this item and the release is limited so we decided to do preorders to make sure everyone gets theirs as we anticipate a quick sellout. **Sword in picture NOT included**
Slayage RIP? -- KdS, 08:45:47 12/15/04 Wed

The academic Buffy essay site, not slayage.com. Link (www.slayage.tv) is pointing to a link farm. Does anyone know what happened?

Replies:

[> Re: Slayage RIP? -- fidhle, 08:53:50 12/16/04 Thu

I wrote to the webmaster of slayage.tv, and he said that there were server problems but that it should be up in a day or so, and to keep checking.

[> [> Re: Slayage RIP? -- MaeveRigan, 21:10:02 12/16/04 Thu

'Tis true. They'll be back ASAP--one of the editors confirmed it on the 'buffyology' yahoogroup on Wednesday.

[> Yay!!! Slayage.tv is back. Just checked today. -- fidhle, 09:48:55 12/18/04 Sat


[> [> Slayage 15! -- MaeveRigan, 14:37:57 12/19/04 Sun

Yet another gathering of philosophical goodness. For combining philosophy and legal theory with BtVS, the recommended link to the essay in the Cardozo Law Review (imagine!), "'You slay me': Buffy as Jurisprude of Desire," is awe-inspiring.

[> [> [> w/a cross-reference to...here! -- anom, 17:41:30 12/19/04 Sun

"For combining philosophy and legal theory with BtVS, the recommended link to the essay in the Cardozo Law Review (imagine!), '"You slay me": Buffy as Jurisprude of Desire,' is awe-inspiring."

And on p. 2, it says:

"But before the reader consigns the series -and this article s claim- to the same televisual dustbin as
such witless primetime efforts at adolescent grand guignol as Sabrina the Teen-Age Witch,6 consider, for a moment, the website, All Things Philosophical on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. 7 There, any cyber-fan of the Slayer can jack onto, for example, the series moral ambiguities and ethical quandaries - two of the website s categories- all the while cross-referencing each of the episode s metaphysical intertexts. So it would seem, if the internet is anything to go by, that philosophy(!) is one of the mainsprings driving Buffy s critical as well as popular success. One significant philosophical sub-discipline, however, is curiously and conspicuously absent from the digital (and/or print) commentary concerning the series. What the show s website (and, indeed, journalism or literary criticism) omits to mention- an omission that this article seeks to rectify- is none other than the philosophy of law."

Masq, you even got a footnote! (It's just the URL for the main site, but still.)

I haven't read the rest of the article yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

[> [> [> Re: Slayage 15! -- fidhle, 19:30:56 12/20/04 Mon

I really liked the Cardozo Law Review article. I have just read and really like the recommended link following that one. "A Question of Faith: Responsibity, Murder and Redemption in Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Chrestomathy: Annual Review of Undergraduate Research at the College of Charleston 3(2004): 205-228. An excellent undergraduate paper on the topic, with one major flaw. I don't think the author saw the S4 eps of Angel that featured Faith and so misinterprets her release from prison.
Has anyone heard these rumors before? -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:44:55 12/15/04 Wed

I was visiting another message board where someone was talking about Joss Whedon and said there are "reports that he continually hassled Carpenter, Gellar, and Trachtenberg about their weight, claiming the rail-thin actresses were too fat, also speaks to his respect of women. I don't seem to recall stories of him getting on Boreanez's case about HIS weight."

Replies:

[> Re: Has anyone heard these rumors before? -- Ames, 14:41:45 12/15/04 Wed

Doesn't make sense.
SMG and MT were both very thin, and CC only got visibly plumper in the later stages of pregnancy. SMG looked too thin in S7 - she looks better in The Grudge.
Joss has always made a big point of his respect for women - after all, that's what BtVS is all about. It wouldn't be in character, and by all accounts he got on well with all the actors (although rumour has it that he was a bit annoyed with CC for not telling anyone she was pregnant).
Anyway, if anyone were going to hassle an actor for being overweight (a constant occupational hazard), it wouldn't be the exec producer unless he were asked to speak to them by someone else.

[> according to a different rumor ... -- aka Ms K, 15:25:12 12/15/04 Wed

I read somewhere that Joss was unhappy with how thin the Buffy actresses were getting (and the image of female beauty thus presented) and that for Firefly the actresses were contractually bound not to loose weight. No idea how true this is.

Also, Amber Benson was not Hollywood skinny and a producer who wanted rail thin actresses just would not have hired her.

[> [> Firefly -- monsieurxander, 22:38:52 12/16/04 Thu

On the Firefly DVD, Jewel Staite says that she was required to gain weight for her part.

Just my two cents.

[> [> Re: according to a different rumor ... -- newvague, 17:51:16 12/21/04 Tue

and on that note, the fact that he even hired SMG for the part contradicts such rumors (she was quite a bit plumper in those days).

not to mention the original casting of willow...
browsing through the archive, found this post :) (sorry masq) -- lakrids, 08:22:45 12/17/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> AToBtVS fan fic site -- Masquerade, 09:27:33 06/13/01 Wed

I'm all for a fan fic site associated with this board.

I'm not a fan-fic reader, but I think it's just because I'm such a BtVS purist--it bugs me when people write things that interpret the show and characters in ways that are radically different from what the writers have established. I guess it's because I'm a fiction writer myself. *My issues*

That said, I think that a fan fic/fan non-fic site should pay some attention to editing for punctuation and spelling. I didn't used to do this with the fan blurbs I put on my site, and then it just started to bug me. A clear, well-thought out, well-argued opinion can be so easily dismissed when the author spells like a twelve-year old. Again, *my issues*, I used to be a college professor!

However, the site should not be big on editing for content. I think showing a wide range of differing interpretations through fic gives people a chance to experience the Buffyverse from a number of fresh (often contradictory) perspectives. (I know that contradicts my *personal issues* as stated above, but I know when my issues are *my issues*)

Um... one question. I'm assuming some of this fan fic will be of an "adult" nature? Or at least relationshippy? I'd just like to put in my .02 cents on advocating that relationships of all kinds be fair game. Many people "eww" at Giles/Buffy or Xander/Angel or what not, but they don't have to read the stuff they might find offensive.

Masq

*****
About the virtual season 6
Will we get some adult content?
Will we see Xander/Angel or Faith/Illyria?

lakrids

Replies:

[> Canon is canon is canon -- Masq, 10:21:23 12/17/04 Fri

Adult stuff there might be, but not above PG-13. And probably not non-canonical slash.

Of course, one thing I've learned in recent months is there's a BIG difference in opinion about what counts as "canon" in this regard.

But, of course, all subtext is possible. "BYOS" is Joss-approved.

[> [> But what is canon, that is the question -- lakrids, 15:54:18 12/17/04 Fri

Yours subtext is another ones text. Some sees Angel as nearly beyond doubt as bi-sexual, and another will view Angel as a very het guy. For some is one character development a fascinating story about a romantic multifaceted character, for another one is the same character one big waste of screen time.
You can of course say nearly beyond doubt what had happened in an episode, if we can trust the narrator. We cannot for example trust the text, if the narrator is Andrew, or one should a least take a very critical interpretation of Andrews canon. Okay most of the episodes, is the camera only registering what happens in a seemly neutral way. But how the viewers interpreter the same scene, will vary wildly, after things like gender, age and how much back-story does the viewer have of the show etc. So I don t think, that one can say with 100 % accuracy what the characters motive are. You can say, that you found in a fanfic, that a character action divided radical from yours and perhaps majority of reader s expectations of said character. A good writer will can let one, see a character in new light, in a way that makes reader feel, that the canon does not get violated, but expands ones view of the character. Not so perhaps you particularly agree with the character interpretation, but that it works in this fanfic.

[> [> [> Good points, certainly -- tyreseus, 10:52:31 12/18/04 Sat

And I think everyone on the season 6 project would agree that interpretting the subtext of canon materials (and agreeing as a group) has been one of the more difficult challenges.

For Virtual Season 6, though, we began with some very important rules. Key among these was that we were writing a series as if we were the real Mutant Enemy. That means we follow the rules about real-life television standards, budget constraints, guest appearances, etc. It also means that we are trying our best to stay true to the motivations of our beloved characters, but also to the way those motivations are presented.

Some people may consider Angel (nearly beyond doubt) to be bisexual, others will not. I think that our existing canon allows for both interpretations. I hope that our project will continue to allow for the same.

What you won't find in the Virtual Season 6 is Angel strolling on screen to announce "by the way, all you people who thought I was bisexual, you were right." Instead, you have Angel making decisions and choices that the reader can interpret in a variety of ways. The only thign we're sadly lacking is the performance of DB to give even more nuance and reaction to the text.
random thought: i miss tara.... (been watching S6 again...) -- ghady, 13:06:03 12/17/04 Fri


Replies:

[> Re: random thought: i miss tara.... (been watching S6 again...) -- shambleau, 14:05:38 12/17/04 Fri

Even though S5 had Family and wonderful bits for Tara (in The Body and Tough Love among others), S6 is where she gets the fullest development. ME push her perilously close to Saint Cordy territory once or twice, but her flashes of anger at Anya and Willow give her a darker edge that never turns saccharine. I miss her too. Like hell.

[> [> Maybe she'll be resurrected in Angel S6 :-) -- Ames, 21:54:25 12/17/04 Fri


[> [> Re: random thought: i miss tara.... (been watching S6 again...) -- DorianQ, 13:38:43 12/18/04 Sat

I miss her a lot too. Although I disagree and say that they took toward saintlyness way more than Cordy , but that was before "You're Welcome". But that didn't mean I stopped liking her, or either of them actually.

PS. Please don't bring her back to life in Season 6 project. That would take it further out of reality and relatability even more than it already is. It was bad enough the first three times it happened in canon. If characters were meant to come back, they would just go into comas, like normal people. ;)

[> What I miss (spoilers for everything) -- Ann, feeling wistful, 05:57:59 12/19/04 Sun

Who and what I miss.

I miss the interaction between Connor and Angel, from birth to the end. I think their depiction of father/son interface (new use of this word for me) was truthful in every single scene.

I miss Faith kicking a little demon butt. Her energy brought a life to the show that was not present in that way before her.

I miss Wes being so confused. His confusion as metaphor for Angel s struggle was always brilliant to watch even when he locked his fears in a closet with a bucket. He did give his fears a bucket; it was nice of him to catch the leakage. Can t lose or ever escape any of your struggles, can you?

I miss Buffy trying. I think that broad (hee) struggle was the finest ever put on television.

I miss Giles pushing his glasses up his nose and sometimes polishing them when he did not want to see. Some people pick up the sword, other put on their glasses. There is bravery in that too.

I miss giggling at some of the silly demon costumes. Never saw any zippers anyway.

I miss Cordy dying. She should have gotten the treatment Joyce did, but death is not like that. It never gives it to you the way you want. There was truth in that too. I miss her being candid in her bitchiness. Anya too.

I miss Xander wanting. Xander wanted so much.

I miss Lorne s pretty colours. Well lit as metaphor for seeing in the light of your choices. Lorne always felt the weight and light of his choices.

I miss Fred s intellect. She may have been the smartest female character on television.

I miss Gunn s want. He and Xander had a lot in common.

I miss Joyce. Her final scene was, well was final. In it quiet horror. Hush may have been the silent episode, but this one really was.

I miss seeing Joss s view of the world every single day.

[> [> Void -- alliterator, 23:52:28 12/19/04 Sun

"Bring, in this timeless grave to throw,
No cypress, sombre on the snow;
Snap not from the bitter yew
His leaves that live December though;
Break no rosemary, bright with rime
And sparkling to the cruel clime;
Nor plod the winter land to look
For willows in the icy brook
To cast them leafless round him: bring
No spray that ever buds in spring.

But if the Christmas field has kept
Awns the last gleaner overstept,
Or shrivelled flax, whose flower is blue
A single season, never two;
Or if one haulm whose year is o'er
Shivers on the upland frore,
-- Oh, bring from hill and stream and plain
Whatever will not flower again,
To give him comfort: he and those
Shall bide eternal bedfellows
Where low upon the couch he lies
Whence he never shall arise."
- A.E. Houseman
TWO power centers for Anyanka in The Wish!? -- shambleau, 11:00:39 12/20/04 Mon

I rewatched The Wish last night and noticed something I'd never spotted before. Anya gives Cordelia her pendant, which is weird now that I think of it because it is her power source. It's identified with her in the occult books and it's how Giles is able to figure out who has caused the Wishverse. But when he summons Anyanka, she's wearing an identical pendant! I checked in the script, which is in the DVD Special Features section, and it actually states that Anyanka is wearing an identical pendant. Why would you give a out your power source? Why is there more than one? I was under the impression that there was one alone, based on other eps.

Some other observations...

In the script, when Cordy first meets Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander, the script description says that Willow invades Cordy's personal space and that this invasion is sexual.
In the ep, I don't think that's clear. IIRC, I've seen criticisms before that Willow shows no signs of bi-sexuality in The Wish and that Dopplegangland is a ret-con (In fact, there's something to that effect in the latest issue of Slayage Online-in an article about Willow's sexuality, I believe). Still, it's interesting that it was in ME's mind at that time.

Also, Wishverse!Buffy reminds me strongly of Generalissima!Buffy. Her "I don't play well with others" comment jibing with Buffy's inablity to connect with the Potentials, her recklessness in taking on the Master when he was in the middle of a huge number of vamps, her coldness.

In fact, I've often wondered if the inablity to feel that Buffy complained to Giles about in Intervention was cured by her leap in The Gift , or actually made worse. Was the numbness she felt only because she was brought out of heaven or was it a continuation of the hardening that had already been going on? There are a number of scenes of callousness even in early S7 that, to me, show that the hardening process continued. Think of her casual response when reading to a paralyzed Dawn tht there was no cure, for example.

Replies:

[> You should read The Annotated Buffy -- Ames, 12:00:08 12/20/04 Mon

Many of your issues with The Wish were discussed there, including Anyanka's duplicate amulets. The Annotated Buffy - The Wish

[> [> Thanks Ames -- shambleau, 14:02:08 12/20/04 Mon

Interesting read, though I only saw one speculation about the two necklaces, and it didn't wash with what we've seen later. Halfrek didn't give Dawn a pendant in OAFA . It doesn't seem like Anya gave one to the girl in Beneath You either, so the rationale that the pendant Anya gave to Cordy is for some kind of magical identification of the wish-giver makes no sense.

Also, now that I think about it, another issue comes up. Why did Anyanka let Cordy know that her wish had been granted, but Halfrek didn't tell Dawn and Anya didn't tell the girl that her ex was now a worm monster? Granted, Halfrek could have been waiting until everybody was in the house, but why not just whisk them all there?

[> [> [> In the context of the episode... -- Rob, 14:07:40 12/20/04 Mon

I thought it was reasonable to believe that it was some form of identification, since there were 2 pendants and so the one Anya gave Cordy seems useless otherwise, although, you're right, it was never followed up on in later vengeance demon appearances.

Rob

[> [> [> [> So when is the next annotated episode coming out ? -- Ames, 14:52:32 12/20/04 Mon

Bring on "Resistance" part 2!! -- ladyhelix, 18:54:05 12/20/04 Mon

Counting down till Showtime - can't wait!

Replies:

[> I ll second that! -- grifter, 09:55:18 12/21/04 Tue

You guys are really doing a great job with season 6.

[> I'm working on it, I'm working on it! -- Masq, 16:07:32 12/21/04 Tue

Glad to see some enthusiasm! It helps!
Was Storyteller an ME apology for Buffy's speeches? -- shambleau, 19:48:14 12/20/04 Mon

I was reading one of the new Slayage 15 articles. It was talking about the perception of Storyteller on an Australian board being that Jane Espenson and, by extension, ME, were recognizing and responding to their complaints about the speeches.

I had always assumed that the speeches were supposed to reflect Buffy's lack of grasp of the situation. She's trying to find the proper grip on the hammer to best pound in the nail, to use Xander's analogy. She's failing to connect with the Potentials because she's inexperienced at motivating large groups. She's exhausted. On top of that, she isn't sure the First can be beaten, and she can't figured out a way to fight it. Consequently, she doesn't want to be too close because she knows she'll lose some or all of them. Also, of course, she feels superior to the Potentials and feels they should just do what she tells them and then feels bad about feeling that, etc. All this contributes to her talking at the girls rather than to them.

I didn't get that Buffy didn't want to get close to the Potentials until she said so, which was late in the season, but the others factors, yep, I got. I figured Storyteller was just making the subtext into text. Is there any confirmation one way or the other on whether ME was saying "Oops, our bad" or not? Somebody saying that ME meant for the speeches to be rousing and inspiring and were surprised at their reception?

Then, if it WAS deliberate, is making your character do unlikable things for a prolonged period a daring thing to do or is it stupid? Is it a betrayal of an unwritten compact with the viewers that the characters will be flawed-but-lovable, or is it showing trust that the audience can hang in there and take it while you explore what slaying is doing to our hero? In theory, I should come down on it as being daring, but I'm actually pretty torn.

Replies:

[> Re: Was Storyteller an ME apology for Buffy's speeches? -- Rich, 20:15:46 12/20/04 Mon

Wasn't there a scene - I think in "Lies my Parents Told Me" - in which Buffy herself makes fun of her speeches ?

[> [> Re: Was Storyteller an ME apology for Buffy's speeches? -- DEN, 17:16:11 12/21/04 Tue

Those kinds of motivational/explanatory speeches justifying sacrifices past and to come are standard in the "war story" category of action/adventure fiction. A good recent example is Aragorn's speech to his army before the gates of Mordor in "Lord of the Rings" 3 During the last half of S7, "Buffy" borrowed a lot of conventions from the war story; IMO this was one of them. It fell flat partly because ME was generally unfamiliar and uncomfortable with the "war story" material; and partly because in our skeptical, individualist era they are hard to sell unless the ground is well prepared.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's speeches -- Rich, 18:15:34 12/21/04 Tue

I think ME may deserve more credit than you're giving them. In Storyteller, Andrew makes fun of Buffy's speeches, and in LMPTM, Buffy refers to giving an inspirational speech to the TV repairman. I think the speeches were intended to fall flat, possibly to show that Buffy was uncomfortable in her new role as commander.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's speeches -- LittleBit, 07:46:59 12/23/04 Thu

I agree. Buffy as "generalissima" always seemed to me as if she got her 'training' from watching old war movies with Xander. Which could well be accurate, since we know she didn't get any real advice on how to be a 'wartime leader' from anyone else.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's speeches -- Roy, 15:35:51 12/29/04 Wed

I also agree that Buffy speeches were signs of ME's failure to write S7 as some kind of war story. I also believe they were a reflection of Buffy's inexperience and increasing failure as a "war leader". In fact, the only true inspirational speech she ever gave was her last one in "Chosen".

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's speeches -- Plin, 14:28:55 01/01/05 Sat

I agree: Buffy was trying to fit into a hierarchical model that she didn't want, and didn't ask for. Giles, on his part, was also pushing her to act like a classic (male) leader. It wasn't until she finally got a break, and regained confidence in herself, that she was able to be truly inspirational, because it wasn't until then that she was doing what she really believed in.

I think it's clear that ME was deliberately shaping the season that way. Like you say, her "speechifying" is ridiculed on several occasions, and we were repeatedly shown that they were ineffectual. There's no evidence they were ever intended to portray good leadership.

[> Re: Was Storyteller an ME apology for Buffy's speeches? -- heywhynot, 12:09:03 12/27/04 Mon

Buffy's speeches were suppossed to fall flat. She had taken on the role of the general, the patriarch. Basically Buffy became what the show is against. Once Buffy realizes this and gets back to inspiring people to overcome fear and the limits it places upon them (casting off the silly rules of Man) is when Buffy speeches became good again. An army is kept in line by fear. Fear is what power is based on. Buffy was about empowerment.

[> [> Re: Was Storyteller an ME apology for Buffy's speeches? -- Dlgood, 08:43:43 12/29/04 Wed

She had taken on the role of the general, the patriarch. Basically Buffy became what the show is against. Once Buffy realizes this and gets back to inspiring people to overcome fear and the limits it places upon them (casting off the silly rules of Man) is when Buffy speeches became good again.

? Which are the "good" speeches Buffy has in S7. Perhaps beyond her "I Am the Law", which I think was an excellent encapsulation of her frustration and despair at the role she's found herself in.

An army is kept in line by fear. Fear is what power is based on. Buffy was about empowerment

Actually, no. Fear tends to be what makes armies fall apart, turn on themselves, and fail. Fear (Fear Alone, that is) is not what keeps an army in line. Or at least, not The Navy (which I've actually worked on.) Power is rooted in a lot of things, and more than anything else, it's rooted in constituent consent and solidarity. Fear can be a component of that, but it's just one component.

[> [> [> Re: Was Storyteller an ME apology for Buffy's speeches? -- Roy, 15:37:46 12/29/04 Wed

"? Which are the "good" speeches Buffy has in S7. Perhaps beyond her "I Am the Law", which I think was an excellent encapsulation of her frustration and despair at the role she's found herself in."

I found her "I Am the Law" speech very wince inducing. As I had stated before, her only good speech was her last . . . the one she gave in "Chosen".

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's good speeches? -- Rich, 18:11:27 12/29/04 Wed

Personally, I kind of liked "the only thing stronger than evil is us".

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's good speeches? -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:19:05 12/29/04 Wed

Wasn't that one about overcoming fear, as well? "We're not just going to face our worst fears; we're going to seek them out and cut out their hearts." Also, when she stated "I Am the Law" in "Selfless", I kind of had to agree with her. She's the only one who really has any sort of power or control over the demons and vampires in Sunnydale, and that means she is in charge. The most powerful person or group is always, ultimately, the Law. Even if they choose not to use that power, they are just being a very lenient force of authority; as long as the potential for enforcing their will exists, they remain the Law. And so Buffy was the Law, because she was the most powerful person in the supernatural community, and to quote a famous comic book, "With great power comes great responsibility"; likewise, with great power comes great authority.
happy solstice, everyone! -- anom, 18:24:49 12/21/04 Tue

We actually had snow here in NYC night before last--finally!--followed by a cold & windy day that really felt like winter. And now it's official!

Replies:

[> Re: happy solstice, everyone! -- CW, 09:25:51 12/22/04 Wed

Yes, and we had a few hours of clouds here yesterday to make Masq feel welcome. Can't wait till the 29th. Hope you won't mind a little more fallish weather, because you'll have little chance of seeing any snow in Tucson except up on Mt. Lemmon.

[> Hi anom! Question for you. -- frisby, 10:56:45 12/22/04 Wed

Hi anom! I think I'll be able to come to the NY gathering. Who is coordinating this time? Is there an email I can write to saying add one more? No word yet on which hotel or precisely which three days around 4th of July?

Thanks for any help you might be able to render in this regard (dfrisby@iupui.edu).

David

[> [> Re: Hi anom! Question for you. -- anom, 17:14:21 12/22/04 Wed

cjl's coordinating. He started a thread early this month about it. Check that out & see if you still have questions.

[> Snow Free in BC...and Happy Solstice!!! -- Rufus, 17:06:33 12/22/04 Wed

Well, at least in the Lower Mainland...though it just may freeze after Christmas.
EXTREMELY O/T, but need some help none the less -- Jean, 16:06:54 12/22/04 Wed

I need some help, I need to put together a list of drinks and cocktails for a party and have no idea what to buy.....not saying you all are drunks, but you tend to be able to help with most stuff when I ask....I would be greatly appreciative and so would my guests

Replies:

[> my favorites -- frisby, 16:56:33 12/22/04 Wed

I like Woodford Reserve Bourbon and Beefeaters Gin, both on the rocks. Makers Mark bourbon is also good. It doesn't hurt to have some scotch around, maybe some wine coolers, some good dark beers (lager, amber, and all of that, maybe a holiday pack of types). And both red and white wine, with both sweet and dry in the red. And something for those who prefer non-alcoholic drinks too?

As for specific drinks, hire a bartender?

[> Ahem, not that I'm a drunk or anything -- fresne, 09:16:45 12/23/04 Thu

Well, in as much as this is a winter party, hot mulled wine is always a hit.

You can buy the mulling spices at any large liquor store, like Beverages and More. Keep in mind the better quality (red) wine you use for the mulling, the better it will taste, so don t use anything that you wouldn t drink without spices. I find Cabernet works pretty well, but it could be any red wine. Although, the heavier end of the spectrum is better. Put it in a crock pot or keep it on warm on the stove.

Hot buttered rum (you can buy the mix at the same location) is also quite yummy. As Martin Crane said on Fraiser, I love fat in my booze.

Another tasty holiday mix is fruit brandy. Mix equal parts brandy, white wine with 3 parts fruit and 1 part white granulated sugar. Let it sit for a few hours (or hey, 12 months in a mason jar) and drink. Thus for example a bottle of brandy, a bottle of wine, a cup of white sugar, 3 cups fruit, and 1 cup white sugar.

Let s see as to mixed drinks, your best bet is to buy a bartenders guide and then look through for some basic/simple drinks. You don t want to be spending all your time mixing drinks. So, you might want to make drinks a pitcher at a time.

Also, keep in mind, hmm how to say this, you don t want anything so alcoholic that your guests can t leave. So, Sidecars are nice, Long Beach Ice Teas are deadly. Try to make mixed drinks that mix equal parts non-alcoholic with alcohol.

Oh, and sparkling cider is a nice treat for designated drivers.

[> I bartend, but... -- Sevem, 10:59:40 12/23/04 Thu

Not knowing where you are from, I have to figure that different places have different "drinker favorites."

Where I come from, Margaritas are huge so I would have lots of Sweet and Sour mix, Tequilla and 3sec. Long Island Ice Teas are also popular, so I would have a mix of that as well.

These can pretty much go to any crowd. If the crowd is younger, a Sex on the beach would be good, Strawberry Daquoris (Rum) and...ugh...Corona will probably do. Also, kids watching their weight will most definitely drink Michelob Ultra.

Older crowds would likely like Manhattans or Martinis. Get bourbon or Whiskey (or SoCo) with sweet Vermouth for Manhattans - and Gin or Vodka with dry Vermouth for Martinis.


My PERSONAL recommendations?

B&B - a cordial. somewhat pricey. serve on the rocks. Delicious.

Guniess - took me a while to give this beer a real shot. I tried sipping it from other people's glasses (with permission of course) and you cannot get the full effect. Take a chance, buy a glass, and see how you like it. I love it now.

Miller Lite - around here, this is the lite bear of choice for anyone who doesn't drink lager (Yeungling) and isn't conscience enough to drink Ultra light. I used to drink it all the time.

If you really want to impress your friends....put some ice cream mix, .5 of Baily's and 2.0 of Stoli Orange in a blender and add ice. This is one version of a Creamsicle that I love. It is more of a summer drink though. But I like it...

Ok. I think I appear to be one of those drunks that you were speaking of....

7

[> [> ok, that should read - "Seven" -- SeveN, 11:00:42 12/23/04 Thu


[> [> Re: I bartend, but... -- Jane, 12:14:57 12/23/04 Thu

Mmmm. I love B&B, but since it's so expensive it's confined to the only at Christmas time cabinet. I am also a big fan of Guiness beer. Not that I drink much, but when I do have beer, it's Guiness. I recommend that you have some non-alcoholic type things available, like apple cider. Hot mulled apple cider is very tastey, and doesn't really require alcohol.

[> [> Guinness is great... -- Kenny, 16:32:43 12/25/04 Sat

but only from the tap. I've never warmed to the whole can thing.

Anywho, I've noticed a disturbing trend in that a bunch of my friends treat Grand Marnier as a shot. Has anyone else seen that behavior? It seems a bit of a waste to drink it that way.

[> Back to Basics -- dub ;o), 13:30:44 12/23/04 Thu

Vodka, Scotch, Rum, and Tequila.

Orange juice, Coke or Pepsi (for dark rum) or 7Up and Sprite (for light rum), Clamato Juice and Margarita Mix.

That covers it. Add Vermouth and olives and you can do a vodka martini.

;o)

[> Re: EXTREMELY O/T, but need some help none the less -- Antigone, 12:25:27 12/27/04 Mon

I just had a holiday party so I know the dilemma! My advice: don't buy too much and keep it down to a few mixed basic, easy-to-make drinks, plus beers, wine, sodas and egg nog. Alcohol can be expensive and you don't want to end up with a bunch of left overs! Plus guests tend to keep to what they know and what's easy to mix. So my advice is: keep it to one or two bottles of rum, one or two bottles of vodka and one bottle of gin.

For mixed drinks, I bought the Bacardi frozen margarita mix, which makes very good Margaritas. All you need is white bacardi rum, lots of ice and a blender. Although it does not require tequila, even the "Margarita experts" told me they loved it. It's easy and fast to make, which is very important when you have a bunch of thirthty people waiting for their drinks (and when they also expect you to play host and make conversation)!

Have dark rum for people who like to mix rum and egg nog (who doesn't?) or Coke.

I also made Champagne and white wine cocktails called "Kir". Just pour a little bit of high quality Raspberry or Cassis syrup in a glass (available at Beverages and More) and top off with dry white wine or Champagne. Everybody loved it and I found that it's much easier/faster to make than Cosmos or Martinis (no need to measure).

If you plan to make more elaborate mix drinks, Moritos are pretty hot right now (you can get the recipe on-line or from a bartender guide). But really I have found that, unless you have a friend who does not mind playing bartender all night, elaborate mixed drinks are not the best idea (except for small parties.. or if you make it a game for every guest to mix his/her own cocktail; could be fun). It can get messy and complicated. If you want to make cocktails, keep it to one or two and practice beforehand so you know the proportions by heart.

Last piece of advice: you don't need to invest into margarita or martini glasses. Clear plastic cups are the easiest. I found that guests don't really care what they drink out off! Makes cleaning up a breeze!

Have a nice party!!
A Very Happy Holiday to All -- manwitch, 07:12:05 12/24/04 Fri

For me and mine, that holiday is Christmas. Have a merry one, if you celebrate it.

If you do something else, may that bring you great joy as well.

I'm off to do last minute shopping and to finish making a couple of pies: lemon meringue and black bottom, which I upset people by calling "meconium pie." (Hey, a rose by any other name, you know? Pies are good regardless of what they're called.)

Then its off to N'ampshire. Stay warm and be happy.

And thank you for another stimulating year.

Replies:

[> Re: A Very Happy Holiday to All -- Ann, 07:33:14 12/24/04 Fri

Manwitch, I would get you this for your holiday gift if I could *g*.

But since I can't, I wish you and one and all the merriest light in their heart for the coming new year.

This board has given me many gifts so I wish the same for all of you.

[> Merry Christmas! -- Cactus Watcher, 08:32:25 12/24/04 Fri


[> Merry Christmas to all! -- Masquerade, 11:08:35 12/24/04 Fri

Jingle Bells

Dashing through the snow

On a one-horse open sleigh,

Over the fields we go,

Laughing all the way;

Bells on bob-tail ring,

making spirits bright,

What fun it is to ride and sing

A sleighing song tonight

Jingle bells, jingle bells,

jingle all the way!

O what fun it is to ride

In a one-horse open sleigh

A day or two ago,

I thought I'd take a ride,

And soon Miss Fanny Bright

Was seated by my side;

The horse was lean and lank;

Misfortune seemed his lot;

He got into a drifted bank,

And we, we got upsot.

Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,

Jingle all the way!

What fun it is to ride

In a one-horse open sleigh.

A day or two ago,

the story I must tell

I went out on the snow

And on my back I fell;

A gent was riding by

In a one-horse open sleigh,

He laughed as there

I sprawling lie,

But quickly drove away.

Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,

Jingle all the way!

What fun it is to ride

In a one-horse open sleigh.

Now the ground is white

Go it while you're young,

Take the girls tonight

And sing this sleighing song;

Just get a bob-tailed bay

two-forty as his speed

Hitch him to an open sleigh

And crack! you'll take the lead.

Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,

Jingle all the way!

What fun it is to ride

In a one-horse open sleigh.




Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas

Have yourself a merry little Christmas,

Let your heart be light

From now on,

our troubles will be out of sight

Have yourself a merry little Christmas,

Make the Yule-tide gay,

From now on,

our troubles will be miles away.

Here were are as in olden days,

happy golden days of yore.

Faithful friends who are dear to us

gather near to us once more.

Through the years we all will be together

If the Fates allow

Hang a shining star upon the highest bough.

And have yourself a merry little Christmas now.

[> already had one, thanks... -- anom, 13:25:46 12/24/04 Fri

...but to all those who have one coming up, have a happy one!

[> Happy Chrismukkah, or is it Merry Hannumas? ;-) -- Cheryl, 13:31:05 12/24/04 Fri

And Happy Kwanza! So many holidays!

[> [> I always say Happy Kwanhistmaskahyule -- Giles, 16:58:39 12/29/04 Wed

:)

[> Merry Whatever, fellow-Jossians!!! -- Seven, 13:47:59 12/24/04 Fri

I'll be drinking till after the New Year, so if I don't say hi before then, be safe, have fun and spread the love. (not necessarily in that order)

;o)

7

[> & ditto to all above -- frisby, 16:22:19 12/24/04 Fri

& my favorite -- a wonderful winter solstice!

& with a little Hannukah Christmas and Kwanza mixed in

& stay warm (it's 10 below here in IN)

[> [> Re: Another Christmas Poem -- Brian, 17:14:16 12/24/04 Fri

2004 has been a rough year for me. I'm still jobless, and my health has been poor. I haven't been able to spend much time on the board. But Christmas always renews my spirits, and I hope for a better year in 2005. Here's my poem for 2004:

Winter arrives,
The Sun becomes a pale disk waning,
The last leaves spin in their descending journey,
Abandoned bird s nests rock in the cold wind,
And snow falls gently,
Covering the world in white and quiet.

Evergreens bloom in coils of red and green,
Houses are draped in cords of blue and white,
All the colors of the rainbow are on display,
Heralding the holiday season.

Trees are trimmed,
Gifts are bought,
Strong cheer brims in hot mugs,
And mistletoe hangs high.

Voices murmur holiday greetings,
Smiles are seen on young and old,
And the world is wrapped in memories.
Magic of remembered days,
Moments of joy and warmth,
Shared gestures, stolen kisses,
The joy of giving and receiving.

In quiet worship
The world is renewed,
And the Sun starts its long journey waxing towards Spring.


Merry Christmas to all, and a very Happy New Year,

Peace and Buffy,
Brian

[> [> [> Re: Another Christmas Poem -- anom, 08:07:01 12/26/04 Sun

Sorry to hear you haven't been well, Brian. I'm glad you're still finding hope & inspiration for your poetry, & that we on this board have the chance to benefit from reading it. I hope your health & work situation improves next year. Early next year.

In the (flickering) light of your post & cjl's below, it occurs to me that by the time winter starts, things are already turning around. The season that many think of as desolate is a time of increasing brightness. Light returns before heat (it should only be true metaphorically as well!). And in the cold times, the warmth of friendship & the fellowship of our community comes through (& that should only be literal more often, as in seeing fellow posters more!).

And to our friends in the southern half of the world: "Have a nice summer!" @>)

[> We Wish You A Merry Christmas... -- Wizard, 17:35:04 12/24/04 Fri

We Wish You A Merry Christmas,
We Wish You A Merry Christmas,
We Wish You A Merry Christmas,
And A Drunken New Year!

Wait, that didn't quite come out right... oh well. For most of ut, it fits! ;)

[> Re: A Very Happy Holiday to All -- MaeveRigan, 18:47:07 12/24/04 Fri

And a peaceful New Year.

May all your demons be the size of Gachnar!

[> Happy Winter Solstice-related holidays, all! -- cjl, 19:47:06 12/24/04 Fri

The cycle of the year has reached its end. The light has dimmed, flickered and burns only enough to push back the encroaching darkness. But in that light comes the hope for a renewal, the turn of the wheel, the promise of brighter days ahead.

The corn king dies, returns to the ground, waiting to rise again.

The Maccabees huddle in the temple, the oil of one night sustaining them for eight days.

Christ on his cross, bringing hope with the death of the flesh.

The light, in my case, is a flicker on a computer screen, shining in the relative darkness of my apartment in Brooklyn. Through the wires, I talk to my friends in cyberspace--a new community, a new world.

There have been times in the last few years when I have given way to loneliness, to fear, to despair. But with friends beside me, I have never lost hope.

Whatever your faith, this is the time to celebrate hope.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

[> [> well said, cjl. -- Seven, 20:46:36 12/24/04 Fri


[> [> Merry Christmas, everyone! -- Jane, 23:23:09 12/24/04 Fri

I wish you all love and laughter, the joy of friendship and the blessing of health and hope in the coming year. This board has given me a goodly portion of laughter, friendship and intelligent conversation over this last year, and I thank you, one and all.
Merry Christmas, and all the best in the coming year.

[> Re: A Very Happy Holiday to All -- LittleBit, 09:50:38 12/25/04 Sat

Wee fish ewe a mare egrets moose panda hippo gnu deer!!

[> Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it -- BuffyObsessed, 15:14:19 12/26/04 Sun

I hope everyone had a safe but enjoyable christmas. I know I did - for I received season 7 of buffy. Ive watched a bunch of episodes so far and all i have are compliments.
Did Spike quit smoking when he got his soul? -- Ray, 19:04:06 12/24/04 Fri

Bit of a random thought, but I can't remember him lighting up after Buffy season 6

Replies:

[> He lit up on the time-travel demon in "Get it Done" -- BrianWilly, 20:54:40 12/24/04 Fri


[> [> which illustrates... -- Rich, 17:49:41 12/25/04 Sat

...that for Spike, a fight is a party, & some of his parties look a lot like fights.

[> [> He's seen smoking from "Get It Done" onwards... -- Rob, 22:05:24 12/25/04 Sat

...the most memorable instance being his smoking (in both senses of the word!) scene with Faith in the basement in "Dirty Girls".

Rob

[> [> [> Re: He's seen smoking from "Get It Done" onwards... -- DickBD, 20:37:50 12/26/04 Sun

It always seemed to me that the fact that Angel started smoking when he lost his soul was a bit of a smirk by the writers (to go along with the legitimate horror of just how bad Angel got when he "went bad"). However, smoking always seemed part of Spike's personality.

In another vein, Spike never seemed so much different with a soul as Angel did, to me at least. Spike wasn't quite so bad as Angel without his soul and not as Boy Scout good with his soul. Is that just my impression?

[> [> [> [> Re: Not just your impression -- Rich, 23:33:10 12/26/04 Sun

It's been noticed by a lot of people, including the characters themselves - Angel himself (in "Damage", I think) comments on how quickly Spike seems to adjust to having a soul (100 years of brooding vs. 3 weeks in a basement). It's even led some fanfiction authors to suggest that : A. Spike didn't really need a soul , or B. Spike already had a soul and didn't know it.

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