The episode never says why Angelus turned Penn, but during the flashback scene between them as they talk while standing over Penn's dead sister, (as well as some of the dialogue later in the episode), leads me to think that Angelus saw the same relationship that he'd had with his father when he was human Liam, in Penn. When talking to Angelus, Penn talks about his mortal father as not being someone who ever thought highly of him.

Angel: "First kill. Aptly done."

Penn smiles: "It's strange. She was my sister."

Angelus: "And yet you feel nothing."

Penn: "No, I feel hungry."

Angelus: "Ah, you do learn very quickly."

Penn: "My father would disagree."

Angelus: "Ah, then perhaps it's time you shared with him just what a fine student you've become."

Human Penn was Liam's perfect mirror, mostly wrt his father. So, Angelus vamps him, and turns vampPenn into his eternal perfect mirror. Penn became, from what's shown, the perfect student of Angelus. Totally adoption of the killing style he is first taught, to the point that he uses it for over two centuries.

What I always wondered was, why did Angelus abandon Penn? He didn't abandon Dru, nor did he try and abandon Spike from what we've seen. So, why did he leave Penn, who was a perfect copy of him when turned? Penn says he felt aprovial from Angelus, something he'd never felt from his mortal father:

Penn: "Well, you were right about one thing, Angelus. The last 200 years has been about me sticking it to my father. But I've come to realize something - it's you! (He jumps up and kicks Angel in the stomach) You made me! (Kicks him in the face, then double fists him a couple of times) You taught me! (Angel drops to the floor and Penn jumps on his back) You approved of me in ways my mortal father never did! You are my real father, Angelus."

Sounds familar, dosen't it? From "Destiny":

Spike (punches Angel) 'Cause every time you look at
me...(punches Angel) you see all the dirty little things I've
done,(punches Angel) all the lives I've taken...(punches
Angel) because of you! Drusilla sired me...(punches
Angel) but you... you made me a monster.

After seeing "Destiny," and his relationship with Spike/William, I think it's obvious that what simply happened was Angelus got bored with Penn. Penn was not only the perfect copy of himself at the time, but he was the perfect student as well. He adopted Angelus' killing style, but wasn't ever innovative, imaginative, just not as ruthless as Angelus was growing to be. Even Angel calls Penn on his lack of imagination:

Angel: "I'm sorry for what I did to you, Penn, for what I turned you into."

Penn: "First class killer? An Artist? A bold re-interpreter of the form?"

Angel: "Try cheesy hack. Look at you. You've been getting back at your father for over 200 years. It's pathetic and cliched. Probably got a killer shrine on your wall, huh? News clippings, magazine articles, maybe a few candles? Oh, you are so prosaic."

It seems that Angelus was looking for a mirror of himself as far back as the late 1700s. And he probably thought Penn fit the bill. But Penn was too predictable. He didn't have the imagination to ever reach the level of monster that Angelus himself later achieved.

Had already achieved when Dru brought vampWilliam home with her.

I've seen some wonder how, based on the moment we saw in "Fool For Love" is it that Spike and Angel ever had a student/mentor type relationship. How, as Spike said in "Destiny", Angel/us could have been the one to turn him into a monster, when they seemed to disagree a lot, especially about what a "real kill, a good kill" was.

It's Spike rebelliousness, I'd say, that kept Angelus interested in molding William into who be became -- Spike. The style of killing, (which was the main thing they fought about in that mine shaft in Yorkshire), was less important to Angelus than the potential for total ruthlessness he look for in his students.

Spike had drive, had imagination. He may not have been into the stalking/mind games that Angelus preferred to use on his victims, but, molded correctly, William had the potential for the same vicious dive for killing that Angelus had.

The only reason Angelus abandoned this student was because of the Gypsy curse that restored his soul. Not out of boredom with him, like with Penn.

Replies:

[> Sorry. Spoilers for 'Somnambulist,' 'Fool For Love' and 'Destiny' above. (nim) -- CarolB, 01:10:41 12/08/03 Mon

nim

[> Re: Penn and Spike - Angelus' students -- Claudia, 09:04:45 12/08/03 Mon

I wondered if anyone else had saw that episode and noticed the similiarity . . . and differences in Angel's relationships with both Penn and Spike.

You have a good argument on why Angel (I refuse to call him Angelus) had eventually abandoned Penn. But my question is . . . how long did he keep Penn by his side? And how many years would have passed before he and Darla would have abandoned Drusilla and Spike (although I suspect that the latter would not have really minded).

[> [> Re: Penn and Spike - Angelus' students -- CarolB, 13:52:52 12/08/03 Mon

You have a good argument on why Angel (I refuse to call him Angelus) had eventually abandoned Penn. But my question is . . . how long did he keep Penn by his side?

From what was said in the episode, Angelus and Penn went around together until sometime before the start of the 1800s. Penn says he watied for Angelus to show up for their meeting in Italy until the 19th century, but it never happened. Since Angel didn't get his soul back until 1989, that would meen that Penn could have been waiting around for almost 100 years. :)

I actually don't think Angelus would have abandoned Dru or Spike. As far back as season 2 of BtVS, it was clear how different his relationship to the two of them was, as apposed to his relationship with Penn. Even with a soul, Angel just wanted Dru to "take Spike and go". (Lie To Me) He didn't try to kill either of them at all. When he confronted Spike in "School Hard," he didn't try to fight Spike, just trick him.

[> [> [> Abandoning Penn -- Jaelvis, 16:04:32 12/08/03 Mon

Who to say that Angelus abandoned Penn? Maybe it was Penn who left Angelus and Darla? Maybe he had his own agenda for all we know.

[> [> [> [> Re: Abandoning Penn -- CarolB, 20:59:39 12/08/03 Mon

But Penn did say that he waited for Angelus. They were supposed to meet in Italy, and he waited for him until the 19th century, but Angelus never showed up.

It wasn't until they meet face to face again for the first time since then that Penn got some reason for why Angelus never showed.

[> [> [> [> Angel says why he didn't show -- Lunasea, 09:23:18 12/09/03 Tue

Penn: "We were to meet in Italy, remember?"
Angel: "I remember."
Penn smiling: "Well, I waited. (Kate crawls towards her radio) Hell, I waited until the 19th century. What happened?"
Angel: "Got held up in Romania."
Penn: "Romania. What's in Romania?"
Angel: "Gypsies."

I don't think there is any abandoning going on. The comment about the 19th century when Angel was cursed in 1898 is to show how devoted and pathetic Penn is to wait around that long. Penn goes out, away from Daddy to do some stuff and agrees to meet up later. No abandoning going on, except by Darla, who doesn't go to pick him up before cutting a bloody path across Europe to China.

The problem is that the writers forgot about Penn who was vamped 200 years ago, which would be prior to Spike who was vamped in 1880. So now we have to retcon a slashy joke.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel says why he didn't show -- Claudia, 12:00:04 12/09/03 Tue

[Penn smiling: "Well, I waited. (Kate crawls towards her radio) Hell, I waited until the 19th century. What happened?"]


If Penn and Angel were acquainted during the late 18th century, it's a good chance that he waited for Angel until 1800 or 1801. Probably just a few years.

[> It wasn't abandonment... -- Sofdog, 12:06:19 12/08/03 Mon

As I recall, Penn mentions that he was to meet Angelus in a certain city. It was something mentioned in Buffy canon, Paris or Budapest. He waited there for 150 years. Angel doesn't explain that he never made it because he got his soul back.

He didn't abandon Penn, really. Circumstances spiralled out of his control, more like.

[> [> Timeline -- CarolB, 13:37:04 12/08/03 Mon

They were suposed to meet in Italy. Penn says he wated until the 19th century, but Angelus never showed. Since Penn was turned towards the end of the 18th century, it seemed to me, by the start of the 19th, Angelus had already left Penn.

This works, because Angel/us didn't get his soul back until 1898 - which was the end of the 19th century. When Penn said he waited for him until the 19th century, I don't think he waited around for almost 100 years.

If he did, well, he had a big reason for wanting to stick it to Angel "his father", didn't he? :)

[> [> [> m.e. & timelines -- anom, 22:14:10 12/08/03 Mon

Joss Whedon is notoriously bad at math (he freely admits it), & timelines on the Mutant Enemy shows are often screwed up. In Prodigal, Angel does say he got held up in Romania. Penn asks "What's in Romania?" & Angel says, "A lot of Gypsies." That seems to imply that being cursed w/a soul was why he didn't meet Penn in Italy...even if that doesn't fit in w/the times we've been given for certain relevant events.

"Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. Thanks to you, this frail, little Power That Was has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands."

But of course, Jasmine never got to carry out her threatened apocalypse, so her actions were obviously not the apocalypse of prophecy. And just because Jasmine's words imply that Angel is the vampire of prophecy (this is post Spike's re-ensoulment) does not mean that he is. Jasmine may have simply wanted to lay the blame for what she was about to do on Angel's shoulders and used a section of the prophecy he was familiar with (indeed, dogged by) to do it.

Noir Angel and post-noir Angel: Jasmine's actions hammer the final nail in the coffin of Angel's faith in the Powers that Be, and in the Prophecies of Aberjian. But this had been building up since season 2, when Wolfram and Hart were trying so hard to make souled Angel go dark, and almost succeeded. Angel had been trying throughout the first half of season 2 to live up to the shanshu prophecy and bring about his humanity (with a gusto that resembled Spike's in "Destiny").

In Reprise, he went to Wolfram and Hart to attack the Senior Partners directly, believing that he could bring about "the final battle" that was "his destiny". In this episode, he tells Lorne--the reader of destinies--that "getting to the Senior Partners, that's my destiny." Lorne replies: "Is it? Because I haven't actually featured a destiny with you in it lately. It's all kind of murky."

And indeed, Angel does not succeed in bringing down the Senior Partners. He goes home, his faith in prophecy and the Powers crushed into nihilism. He sleeps with Darla, fully believing, and not caring, that it will cost him his soul. But he doesn't lose his soul.

This does not return his full faith in the Powers, though. It simply turns his nihilism into a kind of existentialism:

Angel: "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward, finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I want to do is help. I want to help because... I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world."

But that wasn't the end of the story for Angel and the Powers that Be. Cordelia, Angel's vision girl, still has faith in the Powers, and continues to give Angel his missions well into season 3. Angel is walking the existentialist/believer balance beam in this season. His real motives for getting up every morning and doing his job as "champion" come from a much more down-to-earth motive: love, specifically, the love he feels for his son and for Cordelia.

It was Angel's dark night with Darla that produced Connor. And in season 3, Angel had hope for living something resembling a "normal" life as a vampire through his love of Cordelia and Connor. But even as he was doing so, both of his loved ones became pawns in Jasmine's plan to enter and rule the Earthly plane. And so ultimately (in season 4), both of Angel's loved ones were ripped away from him by this Power that Be.

So it should not be any surprise that the Angel we meet in season 5 is bitter about love and prophecy both, and not as motivated to chase after the carrot of the shanshu as he once was. It has become a reflex action for him to "do the champion thing", but his heart is not in it.

Other mentions of the prophecy and the VwaS:

· In The House Always Wins (ep 4.3), a casino owner holds Lorne hostage, forcing him to read people's destinies. He then "steals" these destinies and sells them to the highest bidder.

The casino owner identifies Angel as "a vampire with a soul", who, among other things "is positioned to be a major player in the apocalypse." He promptly "steals" Angel's "destiny", and like the other victims of the casino owner, Angel becomes lethargic and unmotivated. There are a few things to note, though. (1) First, Angel still manages to fight on behalf of his friends before his "destiny" is returned to him. And (2) it isn't entirely clear how the casino owner discovered Angel's "destiny". Did he get it from Lorne, or did he discover Angel was a vampire with a soul (this is also post-Spike's resouling) and assume Angel was the vampire in the prophecy? And finally (3) it isn't clear what was actually being stolen from people and being sold to others. "Destinies" or something else?

· The Nyazian Prophecies of season 3, which speak of the events related to the arrival of Holtz, the birth of Connor, and the coming of Jasmine (and the defeat of Jasmine) do not seem to be part of the Vampire with a Soul prophecies. Nevertheless, Angel's skepticism about the prophecies and his simultaneous willingness to take action based on what the prophecies say sums up his season 3 balancing act/ambivalence.

· In season 3, there is an interesting reference to a new (not in the Scroll of Aberjian??) prophecy about "The Vampire with a Soul", and that comes in Forgiving (ep 3.17). The incorporeal demon Sahjhan had been trying to get Holtz to kill the pregnant Darla and then the infant Connor. When Holtz took Connor into Quortoth, Sahjhan decided that was close enough to what he wanted--getting Connor out of the way or killing him. His work "done", he reveals to Angel that the "Father will kill the Son" prophecy that had been tormenting Wesley was actually a fake prophecy he planted in an attempt to thwart the fate described in the true prophecy he had come across:

Sahjhan: "It's pretty freaky the first time you see your name in a true prophecy all carved in blood on an official scroll. 'The one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to manhood and kill Sahjhan.' Me!"
Fred: "So you planted false prophecies, that Angel would kill his son, and Wesley believed them."
Sahjhan: "Thank god he had some spine. Holtz was useless. He wanted to raise your kid as his own! I'm living with a knife over my heart for eleven hundred years and he's into petty revenge! If he'd just killed the damn thing while it was still in its mother we could have avoided all this!"

Of course, we only have Sahjhan's word that this is a real prophecy (but otherwise we have no motive for him going to such bother to kill Connor). But if it is a real prophecy, and the "one sired" is Connor, that would make Angel the "The Vampire with a Soul" mentioned in the prophecy. However, it doesn't follow that the VwaS mentioned in this prophecy must be the same VwaS mentioned in the shanshu prophecy.

· Indeed, in Offspring (ep 3.7), Wesley suggests that Angel might not be the subject of the shanshu prophecy at all, that it might refer to his child, who at that point they thought could be born a vampire. Angel, who knows it is murky whether that the Vampire with a Soul mentioned in the shanshu prophecy will fight for good or evil, ties himself in a knot trying to figure out if his unborn child is good or evil, and whether it is "his destiny" to bring that child into the world, or to stop the child from being born.

While Angel struggles to decide what is right and what he should do and whether he has a choice if it is all pre-determined anyway, Fred stands up and says,

"Can I say something about destiny? Screw destiny! If this evil thing comes we'll fight it, and we'll keep fighting it until we whoop it. 'Cause destiny is just another word for inevitable and nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say 'your evitable!'"

And that's perhaps how we should feel about this whole shanshu thing. It may just be a red herring that Eve and her Lindsey-looking pal have put there to have Angel and company all looking in one direction while they do sneaky things in the other direction. Or that ME is using to make the viewers all look in one direction while ME brews something interesting in another direction.

Replies:

[> Very timely! -- Pony, 15:26:52 12/08/03 Mon

The ASSB board is having a very civilized and well-written debate on the shanshu issue today. It's at:

http://www.voy.com/14810/133050615.html

Must dash, but that was an excellent analysis, Masq! Personally I think that the shanshu is a misdirect. I'm not a big fan of destiny (though I do like inevitability, go figure) so I'd be pretty happy to find out that the shanshu turns out to be false, or not what we've been led to believe. Of course the show has a tendency to make the false prophecies the ones that actually come true...

[> [> Re: Very timely! -- Masq, 15:32:10 12/08/03 Mon

Well, I'd post my essay over at ASSB as a way to contribute, but I'm paranoid of being spoiled by subject lines. Hopefully people will have interesting things to say about it over here. ?

[> Shanshu as Central Metaphor of AtS (no spoilers) -- cjl (bringing over his post from Angel's Soul Board), 16:10:08 12/08/03 Mon

When considering the thematic resonance of shanshu, and what it means to the players in ANGEL, you have to go back to the mother series, Buffy, and look at its central metaphor. For all seven seasons of Buffy, Joss Whedon explored the themes of Growing Up--from the end of childhood to the beginning of young adulthood.

At the start of BtVS, Buffy was in denial about her destiny as a Slayer. She wanted to start over after the disaster at Emery, wipe the slate clean in a new town, try out for the cheerleading squad, and be the good girl her mother always wanted her to be. By the end of the series, Buffy had not only accepted her destiny as the Slayer, she had completely redefined the rules of the game. She'd stopped following the arcane pronouncements of the Watchers Council, and in "Chosen," declared that the "one in every generation" limitation no longer applied. Leaving her childhood behind in the gaping hole of Sunnydale, Ca., she could look out to the road in front of her, a road filled with endless possibilities. Childhood was over, and her adult life beckoned. Whatever other problems I might have had with Season 7 in general, and "Chosen" in particular, this was an appropriate way for BtVS to end--perhaps the ONLY way it could have ended.

Could there have been a BUFFY Season 8? Perhaps. If SMG would have been up for it, Fox and UPN would have green lighted an eighth season in a nanosecond. But Joss had clearly reached the end of his metaphorical rope. For him, the first stage of her journey was over, and he had no desire to follow Buffy through her twenties and thirties. It's not that Joss didn't want to explore the dilemmas of young adulthood, it's just that he had a better vehicle for those explorations right at hand:

ANGEL.

If BUFFY was the journey from childhood to young adulthood, ANGEL is adulthood looking back at youth. The central figure of ANGEL is--and always will be--the drunken, would-be lothario we saw in Becoming I. Darla's turning of Liam is the metaphorical equivalent of Liam's wasted potential, the horizon-less road as represented by the finale of BUFFY transformed into a dead end.

For a moment, let's remove the vampire metaphor and frame the discussion in real life terms. Liam meets Darla in the shadows of that tavern, and the two of them take off on a wild spree of drinking and debauchery. Maybe Darla encourages Liam to turn highwayman, robbing and perhaps even killing to fill up their purses, an 18th century version of Bonnie and Clyde. Finally, after 20 years or so on the run from the law, Liam stops and has a moment of clarity: what have I done with my life?

He doesn't "go straight" all at once, of course. He tries to stay with Darla and the band of thieves he himself organized, but his heart isn't in it anymore. At some point, he breaks away from the gang, enters a church outside of Dublin, and slips into a confessional booth. He confesses his sins to the priest, and asks for absolution from God. The priest is shocked, but willing to help him overcome his lifetime of sin. But Liam knows--in his gut-- that no matter how many good works he might do, God will pass harsh judgment on him for all he has done....

And so we have our hero--with Angelus as the metaphor for the horrible waste of a man's life, and Angel as the hope for absolution. For that is what the promise of shanshu is really all about: absolution. If it were merely the promise of humanity, Angel and Spike would have gone off and found the nearest, snarling Mohra demon (see IWRY) and gone on their living, breathing way. But both Angel and Spike want to be absolved of their sins, to be sure that some power higher than themselves has given the big thumbs up to their efforts of reform, and blessed them with absolution. Or, if not total absolution, a clean slate to live again as mortal beings, with final judgment held in reserve until the end of their new mortal lives.

Again, let's strip away the metaphor and go back to Highwayman Liam. He tries to do good works for the community, even comes back and takes over his father's business. There are times when it seems to the people of Galway that the brooding Liam has made peace with his former life; another time, he finds true love, and this gives him the strength and the determination to put down roots and build a family. But every once in awhile, Darla and his old gang come back to town to remind him that he's never going to escape the sins of the past. He cannot fully give himself to love, to joy. Even at home, he is in exile from the grace of God.

Angel and our alternate Liam are not alone in their struggles. From mid-life (or even earlier), many people look back at youth and wonder what they could have done, should have done. How many of us in blogger-land have had dreams of being a writer or an artist, and then compromised, settled, taken the road of least resistance? (Angel taking control of Wolfram and Hart is a magnified version of those everyday compromises.) How many of us have tortured ourselves over the fact that we're never going to fulfill those dreams, and we've wasted part of our lives in worthless pursuits? If only we could go back somehow, wipe the slate clean, and start over again with the courage to pursue our dreams, and fulfill our true destiny in the world. This is also the promise of shanshu.

But, as we all know, shanshu is an illusion. It's never going to happen. Our two vampires with a soul pursue the dream so passionately, but only because they so fear the reality: no higher power is going to grant Angel and Spike their unbeating hearts' desire. Joss Whedon believes too much in his metaphors (and how they apply to real life) to give his heroes the easy way out. I honestly believe Angel and Spike will struggle along for the remaining length of the series, dealing with each other, their history with Dru and Darla, and the legacy of their bad old days, with the promise of shanshu always agonizingly just out of reach.

An unhappy ending? No. Because they'll be surrounded by friends and loved ones who make their struggles worthwhile. Perhaps, like Camus' version of Sisyphus, Angel and Spike will one day find satisfaction rolling their rocks up the hill. Perhaps, on that day, they will achieve their shanshu by no longer desiring it.

***********

A man of 60 now, Liam looks out of the window of his shop in Galway. He is a well-respected merchant, well-loved by the younger members of the community, but still treated with disdain by some of the old-timers, who cheered when they put him away in County Gaol, and muttered dark oaths when he returned. His grandchildren are playing in the street, and he yells at young William to get the bloody hell out of the mud and get over to school. The shadow of his younger years still hangs over him, and he knows there will be no peace until he is dead; but for the most part, he is satisfied with his life, his family and his friends. Absolution will come from God--or it won't. He smiles, and goes back to work.

[> [> Re: Shanshu as Central Metaphor of AtS (no spoilers) -- s'kat, 16:57:15 12/08/03 Mon

Very good post - cjl. I think this is the universal theme in Whedon's work. It also reminds me oddly enough of some other works, which may or may not be good analogies:

1. Les Miserables

At the beginning of the story of Les Miserables, John Val Jean is a theif who steals a loaf of bread. When he leaves prison, a kindly old Priest takes him in. Val Jean desperate steals a pair of candlesticks - (I can't remember if the priest catches him at it or if Val Jean returns shamed) at any rate the priest lets him keep the Candlesticks and with the candlesticks Val Jean is able to become weatlhy and Mayor of a town. But his past haunts him. The past of theiving and other things - it lays on his back like a cross heavy to bear.

2. Force of Evil - a 1954? film by Adam Polansky starring John Garfield. John Garfield plays a lawyer to a mob boss involved in the numbers racket. Garfield's older brother, named Leo, has heart trouble and is a banker running bets.
Garfield attempts to save his older, kinder, brother by
brining him in on the racket, making him more of a part of it, but instead dooms his brother and loses his brother's respect...at the end of the tale, Garfield's character realizes the only way out of the muck is to climb those stairs back to the surface, turn himself in, and fight people like himself. (This was Adam Polansky's last movie before he was black-listed.)

3. There are many other tales, I'm certain, since the themes of dealing with our past sins and growing up are universal ones. Off hand, I can think of the tale of Sherlock Holmes - a morphine addict who had such promise,
or the lonely private dicks in Philip Marlow's books. Or perhaps best of all - Humphrey Bogarts Nick in Casablanca..saddened and weary by life, but continuing to fight onwards.

Then of course there's the tale of poor Sisyphus, one I think I may be overidentifying with at the moment...so here's my somewhat snarky take (not meant to belittle your wonderful post in the list, just to add a little humor to the proceedings..):

1. Ohhh...that's not that big a rock, I can push that up that hill in no time. All Inspired and Excited about pushing rock up hill.
2. Actually much bigger rock than it looked, kinda heavy and is this hill ever going to come to a point?
3. Why am I even bothering? Is there a point?
4. Oops...lost contact with the rock...noooo! Come back rock!
5. Races after rock
6. Loses Rock. All Depressed because lost rock and now back where we started.
7. Someone comes along and convinces us to get a new rock and start pushing it up the hill again.


Meanwhile along comes Kid Bro (Spike)...

1. Sees rock, picks it up and somehow comes up with a bizarre contraption to shoot rock to top of the hill, which uhm excuse me is against the rules.
2. Races after rock, because he miscalculated the distance and ended up shooting rock to the next hill, so not only has he skipped the hill entirely, he's onto the next one. Wait! There's a second hill? You mean I have to push this damn thing up two hills? And how'd he get so far ahead? Ugh!
3. Now he's whining about pushing rock up second hill and telling me, me who has followed the rules and worked for years doing this, that I have it easy? Hmmm, how did kid bro develop that contraption again and maybe I can do one too except designed to hit kid bro in the head.
4. Whoa...the second hill exploded taking kid bro out with it. That sucks. Really. I'm not laughing here, honest. Feel bad. Really bad.
5. Damn. Kid bro popped up again. Right behind me no less. Can't the guy stay down long enough for me to make it to the top of the hill? No...has to pop up again distracting me like a bloody jack in the box...apparently the explosion caused a displacement in time/space continuity and he's been sent back as a ghost but can't get past the first hill until I do...Heh! Cool. He's dependent on my success.
6. Just lost rock, some light hits kid bro and turns him corporeal, he grabs rock and now it's a competition on who gets to push rock up to the top of hill first. As if this wasn't hard enough before he showed up. Hey, that's my rock! Get your own rock!! Doesn't have your name on it, does it? Besides - Finder's keeper's - says kid bro. (Ugh. And to think, I taught that sucker how to walk...This is the thanks I get??)
7. Kid bro loses rock. Hee Hee. Except now we're both back at the bottom of the hill. Kid bro decides to get drunk. While I wait for new inspiration.

Inspiration...or opportunity, as the case may be. ;-)

[> [> [> Didi and Gogo Redux: Spike and Angel and Beckett -- cjl, 18:45:27 12/08/03 Mon

Loved the Sisyphus analogy, Kat, and I'm struck by the parallels between Les Miz and my own scenario for the human Liam-gone-bad. (Incredibly, I've never seen Force of Evil; must rent immediately!) The redemption tale, the struggle of man to overcome his past sins, is truly a timeless theme. By no coincidence, I turned on the radio today, and heard the new Johnny Cash single--a cover of Bob Marley's "Redemption Song," sung as a duet with Clash frontman Joe Strummer. (Draw whatever conclusion you want from this particular alignment of dearly departed music icons...)

The teaming of two dissimilar yet inextricably linked travelers waiting for redemption always brings to mind the team of Vladimir and Estragon in "Waiting for Godot." Wandering through a blasted landscape, confronting the inexplicable and random workings of fate (through the characters of Lucky and Pozzo), anticipating a touch of divine grace--which never arrives. Spike and Angel have gone through so many changes over the course of their (un)lives, suffered through so many cruel twists of fate--and yet, just like Didi and Gogo, they've found little joys to take them through the days.

Spike and Angel are both trying to navigate a landscape unique to themselves. There are no roadmaps or signs, just the road trailing off into the grey horizon. Once our vamps learn to see through their own misconceptions of each other, they can support each other in their travels. Just as Buffy triumphed by giving up the burden of her special gift, perhaps Angel and Spike will reach a new level of understanding by realizing their burdens aren't unique, after all.

[> [> [> About Sherlock Holmes . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:12:03 12/08/03 Mon

He was actually addicted to cocaine, not morphine. Also, in reading the stories, I was sometimes unsure whether Doyle was for or against cocaine. Sometimes it seems like he's against given Watson's negative reaction to learning of it. At other times, it feels as though we're meant to take Holmes's side, since he explains his coke use in the same way that he always makes deductions to Watson, which we're accustomed to excepting as right.

[> [> [> [> Agree -- KdS, 02:54:35 12/09/03 Tue

Cocaine was not seen in the 19th century as anything like as dangerous as it is now - Freud used it in quite large quantities, and you could buy it over the counter.

I really don't see any hint of a redemption story in Conan Doyle, and I don't think he was even attempting to write any long term character development. Holmes mellows a little over the stories, but the stories are written out of chronological order and the mellowing happens in the order that they were written, so I can't see it as a conscious design. There have been later attempts to give Holmes a youthful trauma of some kind (see for example Nicholas Meyer's The Seven-Per-Cent Solution) but they're pretty much fanfic.

[> [> [> [> [> Cocaine -- Gyrus, 14:57:08 12/09/03 Tue

Cocaine was not seen in the 19th century as anything like as dangerous as it is now - Freud used it in quite large quantities, and you could buy it over the counter.

As I understand it, patterns of cocaine use were quite different in the 19th century. Most people who used cocaine (including Freud) weren't snorting, freebasing, or shooting powder cocaine. Rather, they were chewing the coca leaves, boiling them and drinking the resulting infusion, or smoking them in cigarrette form. (The heat from smoking would break down most of the actual cocaine, which still had the chemical base attached, so there wouldn't be much of a "high" involved.) So it's not surprising that a lot of people in those days saw cocaine use as harmless -- in most of the forms it took back then, it was.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Not the way Holmes used it -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:16:23 12/09/03 Tue

He took it intravenously.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm just sayin'... -- Gyrus, 16:16:44 12/09/03 Tue

...that a lot of people in Victorian England (to whom cocaine was relatively new) might not have understood the difference between doing IV cocaine and eating, drinking, or smoking coca leaves.

[> [> [> [> [> Sorry, I should have been clearer -- s'kat, 17:40:21 12/09/03 Tue

I wasn't referring to Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes but
the movie The Seven Percent Solution staring Nicol Williamson, in the movie Sherlock is investigating Moriarity, but shooting up what appears to heroine or cocaine. It's a very noirish movie and actually in my humble opinion more interesting than Doyle's parlor mysteries.

It's not fanfiction btw. Fanfiction is fiction written by fans without copyright approval which cannot be legally
published b/c it does not have the permission of the owners.
Seven Percent Solution did have permission and made money.
It's a bit like - the movie versions of Lord of The Rings actually, Jackson does not exactly follow the books. Or perhaps a better example is the novelizations of BTVS and aTS which are also not "fanfiction" but novelizations.

What I was discussing was noir and redemptive themes in different films and stories I found. I apologize for not being clearer and specifically stating the story that made me think of Holmes.

[> [> Has the metaphor changed over the years? -- Pony, 10:02:02 12/09/03 Tue

It seemed that when it was first introduced shanshu represented the promise of reconnection. The emphasis was on the humanity that lay at the end of it. Now it seems more about the judgement - who will be found worthy of the reward.

[> [> [> No, I don't think the metaphor has changed (spoilers up to 'Destiny'). -- cjl, 11:10:29 12/09/03 Tue

The theme of redemption and absolution has always been there; it's just a matter of emphasis from season to season.

In S1, Joss and DG were interesting in showing how Angel had to reconnect with humanity in order to reconnect with the humanity within himself. But, as I said before, if shanshu was only about regaining humanity in a physical sense, Angel never would have turned back the clock in IWRY, and he and Buffy would be eating cookie dough ice cream until they both exploded.

It's important to note that in IWRY, the PTB have absolutely nothing to do with Angel's transformation, and that's another big reason why Angel doesn't lunge for his premature happy ending (the sap). Shanshu is about finding redemption for the sins of the past, balancing the scales; even before we ever heard the actual prophecy, Angel felt he had not received the blessings of the gods, and he was nowhere close to making up for all the evil he had done.

In S5, with Spike as a possible candidate for the blessing, there is an emphasis on judgment, and which vampire is worthy. But, as made blindingly clear by the last moments of episode eight, the competition is a misdirect, set up by Lindsay and Eve to distract Angel and Spike from the larger issues. (Please don't ask me what those issues are--I have no clue.) I think the true path to redemption--or to some form of reconciliation with the past--for Angel and Spike is within themselves and with each other and their friends.

[> [> [> [> I see Shanshu a bit differently (spoiler Destiny) -- Lunasea, 17:33:19 12/09/03 Tue

There is a surprise, I'm sure. IWRY has to be taken in context with Bachelor Party. In Bachelor Party, we see the Angel/Buffy story replayed without having to see Buffy, though she does form bookends for the episode. Doyle's marriage with Harry breaks up because of his feelings about being a demon, the same reason Angel leaves Buffy. Both Harry and Buffy accepted Doyle and Angel for what they were. The problem was with the guy.

So let's get rid of the problem. Angel is made human in IWRY. Angel still has problems. "And I'm not sure what I am now." It isn't about atonement, but figuring out who he is. As much as Angel hates being a demon, he has a better idea of who he is as demon (even if it is a wrong image, it is still an image). It isn't about the blessings of the gods. They released him from his fealty. It isn't about being done with the amends making. It is about who he is and how he sees himself.

At the end of "Destiny" he is in the same position again. Even if he doesn't believe in the prophecy as he tells Spike, he believes he is a champion. TCTpNC puts that in doubt and Destiny puts it further in doubt. "What if it does? What if it means that... I'm not the one?"

It isn't about a reward, but figuring out who he is. Shashu has been a big part of this image. When he find out who he really is, finds his humanity, then he will Shanshu. "To Shanshu in LA" is about two blind seer kids whose power will increase as they mature. That power allows them to see into the heart of things. I can't think of a better symbol for Angel's journey. As he learns to see into the heart of things, his power will increase. He will do what he has to and he will Shanshu. He will be ready to. He still isn't quite there. The show is about getting him there.

Spike doesn't fit anything in "Blind Date" or "To Shanshu in LA." I will be severly disappointed if they take the prophecy out of its original context and rob it of its rich symbolism. Even if it is a misdirect, the misdirects still fit the theme of the season. We have heard too much about Shanshu for it not to fit with the theme. Who am I? Why am I here? These are the central questions the show asks.

[> [> [> [> [> Angel's redemption, IWRY and 'In the Dark' (spoilers up to 'Destiny') -- cjl, 23:02:07 12/09/03 Tue

I like what you've got here, Diana, and I don't necessarily disagree. In fact, if Joss had quit ANGEL some time in Season 3 to work on Firefly and left Greenwalt running the show, I'm pretty sure something like what you just described would be the ending of the series. Greenwalt had far more invested in the concept of the Powers that Be and believes in the power of ultimate redemption; Joss, our favorite angry liberal atheist, doesn't believe in validation from higher powers.

This was the entire point of the Jasmine arc, which precipitated Angel's psychological/existential crisis at the start of Season 5: Angel no longer trusted his place in the world and the prophecies. He protected both in "Destiny" because (at the moment) he thought that if Spike took his place as the vampire of prophecy, all hope for redemption would be gone. Since the competition set up by the tag team of Lindsey, Eve, and Sirk was a fake, it seems to me that both vamps were looking for redemption in the wrong place.

Why is Angel so heavily invested in the shanshu prophecy and the role of Champion? Is it "about who he is and how he sees himself"? Of course--but with that statement, you have to acknowledge how large the role of guilt and regret and the desire to make amends plays in Angel's psychological make-up. Returning to Angel Season 1, let's jump back a few episodes from "I Will Remember You" and examine "In the Dark." This ep had intriguing thematic similarities to both IWRY and "Destiny," as Spike and Angel came to blows over a mystical artifact of immense, un-life altering power. In the teaser, Spike perched on a rooftop and performed the dialogue for the audience while Angel rescued a standard DiD (damsel in distress) in the alley below. This was vintage Spike, funny and obnoxious, mocking his sire's repentance and comparing souled Angel to a big flaming poof. Spike was (and to a certain extent, still is) fists and fangs, taking what you can, when you can, never considering the consequences.

Angel, on the other hand, ALWAYS considers the consequences. After beating off Spike and Marcus and claiming the Gem of Amara, Angel destroyed it--to Doyle's complete disbelief. Doyle's reaction indicated to me that the PTB had no problems with Angel wielding the gem, and sunning himself on one of California's many bikini-infested beaches.

So why isn't Angel the world's only suntanned vampire?

You might say that Angel didn't want the Gem of Amara to be a constant target of power-hungry vamps around the world. Buffy got it from Spike, Marcus got it from Angel, Angel got it from Marcus--the pretty bauble was passed around rather easily, and Angel wanted to make sure it didn't fall into the wrong hands. BUT THAT'S NOT THE REASON HE GAVE DOYLE. At the end of the episode, watching the sun go down for the first time in two hundred years, he confessed he was uncomfortable with the idea of wandering around in the daylight, enjoying the same privileges as the ordinary people of Los Angeles. Doyle made the very valid and sensible point that Angel could do even MORE good as a champion against evil who was practically invincible. But Angel was clearly afraid he would lose focus, and no longer care about helping the people crying out in the darkness. He had to remain "in the dark" because he did not feel he was worthy to step out into the light. (At least, not yet.)

"In the Dark" set up IWRY perfectly. Angel's reaction to his newfound humanity tracked with his reaction to the Gem of Amara. He couldn't handle it--not because he was more comfortable with his self-image as a demon, but because he felt his mission as a Champion wasn't finished. When Angel consulted the oracles about his "change of status," the Oracles said two important things: 1) Angel was released from his fealty to the PTB (duly noted); and 2) Angel's transformation was NOT part of the Great Plan. The PTB were telling Angel, "We weren't exactly finished with you, but hey, if you wanna go, we're not gonna stop you."

This is where some viewers, TCH among them, rip their hair out in frustration. They can't understand why Angel didn't say "Okey Dokey," grab the Buffster and come back next episode as Liam the Demon Fighter. If you look at shanshu purely as a quest for humanity (both physical and metaphorical), Angel's decision made no sense. How could he possibly pass up what, for the first three seasons of Buffy, was his heart's desire?

[Warning: controversial assertion ahead...]

But Buffy wasn't his heart's desire. She REPRESENTED his heart's desire. As we saw in "Becoming," Buffy was the way for Angel to climb out of the gutter and start fresh. He saw Buffy's mission, and her courage in pursuing that mission, as the path to atonement. In IWRY, he was given the choice between the symbol of his quest and the quest itself, and he chose the latter. This is only way his decision had any psychological validity. (Please don't think I'm minimizing the complex, passionate relationship between Buffy and Angel, and the very real love between the two. I'm not. In fact, Angel's rejection of humanity and the possibility of a life with Buffy shows you how powerful his desire for redemption/absolution is.) Just as in "In the Dark," he did not feel worthy to step out into the light.

At least, not yet.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Great posts, cjl! -- Pony, 08:35:54 12/10/03 Wed


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel's redemption, IWRY and 'In the Dark' (spoilers up to 'Destiny') -- Lunasea, 08:36:09 12/10/03 Wed

"In The Dark" is probably the episode where the alcoholic metaphor is most obvious. He doesn't trust himself. That is probably the defining trait of the series until Pylea, where he is able to come back from the pure form of the demon. I don't know how much is he doesn't feel worthy. I get more he doesn't trust himself vibes.

Joss is kind of busy getting the Serenity off the ground again. He isn't even writing episode 100. I like his shows because they aren't pure atheist. He may not believe, but there is still a longing to believe evident. If it was just the angry atheist existentialist agenda, I don't think the shows would be that interesting. They are an exploration, not an answer. Someone blocked out the sun for Angel. Someone let Angel into Kate's apartment. Someone chose Buffy.

I wrote about destiny last week. One can be found here. Joss may not give Angel some divine stamp of approval, but just as Buffy was his exploration of being extraordinary, Angel asks why we are extraordinary. As there is no answer to this question, the show ping-pongs between between no grand plan and destiny. I don't see the show settling on an answer because there is no answer and that is tied to other questions.

I didn't get the same vibes from "Destiny" that others did, namely he wanted to beat Spike to get the reward. A reward hasn't been part of it since "Judgment." Instead I felt that Angel quietly accepted his fate. If it has to be him, he will take up the cross. He doesn't want the cross, which is why his heart isn't in it any more. Even though he doesn't want that fate, that he has a fate lets him know who he is.

I don't think he really disbelieved the Scroll of Aberjian. He just believed it shouldn't be interpreted in a positive light. He's going to hell. Even if he turns human, he's still going to hell. Do we know what deal he made with Lilah? Is there some eternal contract that can't be burned for him now? Being human won't change this.

Since "Reprise/Epiphany" Angel hasn't believed in a grand plan. He's just trying to help people. When that turns on him in "Tomorrow," he modifies his stance to being an example to show the world what it can be. Now he is questioning the point of it all. He doesn't feel like he is making a difference. Cordy is in a coma and he lost his son. Even though he has made a huge difference in the world, it isn't personal for him. It has lost meaning for him. Shanshu is a way for it to have personal meaning.

If he isn't the one, then what is his place in the world? Guilt, regret and desire play a huge role in Angel, but it isn't about his past as Angelus any more. He knows the man is stronger than the demon, so that issue isn't in play any more. The play now comes from what he said as Angelus in "Orpheus." "Always so concerned with the human condition. It's no big mystery, man. They suffer, they die. That's what they're there for." Deep down inside, that is what Angel believes. He can't change that the world suffers. It suffers now because of what he did in "Peace Out." He did it "for the boy" and he has lost the boy. What is the point? Everything he does turns to ashes.

How do you stay motivated when that happens? How do you resist corruption? If you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, what do you do? That is where I see Angel now.

Liam the demon fighter? We saw how effective he was. Almost got himself killed. I asked David Boreanaz if he would like to play a human Angel trying to find his place in the world without his superpowers. He really liked the idea. I hope the show doesn't end with Shanshu, but we get to see this struggle. Liam would have to find ANOTHER way to make a difference. Maybe he could work with kids and teach them to draw in order to keep them off the streets or deal with emotional trauma associated with demons.

I don't think Buffy was about atonement. She was something he identified with and wanted to protect. She saw the world she was about to be thrown into, just like he had, and he wanted to protect the heart that that could damage. There is another story before Angel sees Buffy that we still need to see. The other slayer he saw. Why didn't he help her and what happened to her.

I think it is Nikki. That is why he is NYC. The donut store is in the 1970's and so is she. The donut shop could be right after it. She may have come off tougher than Buffy, so Angel wasn't as drawn to her as he was Buffy. Because Angel didn't help her, Spike killed her and Robin was orphaned. This scenario really fits with Angel's story.

When Angel thinks he could hurt the heart he wants to protect, he's out of there. First after "Angel," then again in "The Prom." Another story that would be interesting is if he found out about "FFL" and the Slayer's death wish. If he had stayed human, it wouldn't have kicked in. He was important to her heart and protected it in ways that didn't just protect her life. The Oracles didn't tell him about this.

But Angel didn't understand this. To accept being a demon, he started to see himself as a champion/amends maker. When he lost his powers, he lost this image. Then he was nothing. He gave Buffy normalcy. Something NO ONE ever did. He didn't see how that was enough. He had to be able to fight demons on top of this. He had to be something besides her boyfriend. He had to be someone. In order to overcome his image of being evil, he developed an image of what it meant to be someone. That became paramount. Fighting was the way to be someone. He was no good to the PTBs as a human. He was no good to Buffy as a human.

He was wrong, which is why I think Shanshu is still important. It isn't a divine stamp of approval. It is Angel's acceptance of his own humanity and living without his powers, something Buffy didn't have to do. One of them needs to do this for the story. Who am I? Not your powers. You are your heart, your humanity and as a human you still retain that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Angel and the Virtuous Struggle -- cjl, 09:37:16 12/10/03 Wed

A few more points...

"To overcome his image of being evil he developed an image of what it meant to be someone. That became paramount." I think that's the heart of IWRY and the character of Angel in AtS Season 1. The burden of his sins weighed so heavily on his shoulders, that opting out of the Champion business and settling into a normal life with Buffy was simply unthinkable.

In some ways, I think Angel's saw his task at the start of AtS as something similar to the labors of Hercules. (From the Perseus project:)

"The goddess Hera, determined to make trouble for Hercules, made him lose his mind. In a confused and angry state, he killed his own wife and children.

"When he awakened from his 'temporary insanity,' Hercules was shocked and upset by what he'd done. He prayed to the god Apollo for guidance, and the god's oracle told him he would have to serve Eurystheus, the king of Tiryns and Mycenae, for twelve years, in punishment for the murders.

"As part of his sentence, Hercules had to perform twelve Labors, feats so difficult that they seemed impossible. Fortunately, Hercules had the help of Hermes and Athena, sympathetic deities who showed up when he really needed help. By the end of these Labors, Hercules was, without a doubt, Greece's greatest hero.

"His struggles made Hercules the perfect embodiment of an idea the Greeks called pathos, the experience of virtuous struggle and suffering which would lead to fame and, in Hercules' case, immortality."

I think Angel was the poster boy for the virtuous struggle in Season 1. How much he still actually believes in this paradigm is up for debate, and you make some excellent points in how Angel's POV has shifted over the years. However, I don't think Angel's need to believe in the heroic struggle is ever going to fade away completely. Even though he may not trust in it, it's the only thing that gives him hope. And if you don't have hope, you're just spinning your wheels, waiting for the hammer to come down.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh nice... -- KdS, 13:11:24 12/10/03 Wed

I think it is Nikki. That is why he is NYC. The donut store is in the 1970's and so is she. The donut shop could be right after it. She may have come off tougher than Buffy, so Angel wasn't as drawn to her as he was Buffy. Because Angel didn't help her, Spike killed her and Robin was orphaned. This scenario really fits with Angel's story.

Oh yes. It might just be that Whistler hadn't given him the pep-talk yet, but maybe it was that she didn't have that virginal vibe that Buffy did when he first saw her, didn't have the air of innocence that could get through his cynicism. Big potential here...



























(And maybe if Spike were involved it would be a chance to clear up the steaming mess from Lies)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Really like this idea.. -- jane, 18:26:52 12/10/03 Wed

It makes a lot of sense, and gives a nice connection between the two series. Very interesting thread.

[> Great thoughts and Shanshu summation -- RJA, 16:51:40 12/08/03 Mon

Although I have an issue with one thing you say - mainly because its been something troubling me all this season.

You say that But of course, Jasmine never got to carry out her threatened apocalypse, so her actions were obviously not the apocalypse of prophecy.

And I query this because I hadnt thought that the apocalypse had to be carried out in order for this particular part of the prophecy to be fulfilled. If Angel is to play a pivotal part on one side, then surely all that is necessary is for it to begin, rather than be carried to completion.

I would also say that out of all the apocalypsi/ses/whatever we have seen on Buffy or Angel, this comes closest to the true defintion, the idea of the Second Coming, in which sinners repent and the Saved will see the rapture. Certainly, this seems a close model for what happens with Jasmine - she is essentially creating heaven on earth, the ultimate point of the apocalypse. And she is also robbing humanity of what makes them human. Literally, the end of the world as we know it.

So I'm convinced that Jasmine was right, Angel knows which side he was on, although whats unclear is whether his side was for good or evil. Wolfram and Hart sure have their own opinion now.

Then again, I was always unclear how far this prophecy related to the Shanshu, although your post has shed light on that aspect. I just still believe that the apocalypse that was referred to is the one Jasmine was trying to bring about.

Although I might be alone there, given that the show has referenced it since.

Anyway, great thoughts, a fascinating post.

Very much agree with your last points though, and the referencing of Fred's mini-rant. I think that the idea of destiny is holding Angel to ransome in many ways, and he has to look it in the face and tell it its evitable.

[> [> Re: Great thoughts and Shanshu summation -- Masq, 17:29:07 12/08/03 Mon

And I query this because I hadnt thought that the apocalypse had to be carried out in order for this particular part of the prophecy to be fulfilled. If Angel is to play a pivotal part on one side, then surely all that is necessary is for it to begin, rather than be carried to completion.

You do have a point. If Angel is on the side of good, he helps prevent the apocalypse that would have otherwise happened. Hence, it can still be the apocalypse of prophecy.

However, it is actually Connor who kills Jasmine and in doing so, prevents her apocalyptic vengeance.

And the murkiness of "Did Angel do the right thing in deposing Jasmine" that arose from the moral murkiness that was Jasmine herself, fits the bill of why the shanshu prophecy was murky on this subject.

Of course, if this was the final battle, and Angel did his prophetic duty, why isn't he out shopping for sun-tan lotion and ham sandwiches?

[> [> [> Re: Great thoughts and Shanshu summation -- RJA, 17:37:51 12/08/03 Mon

You're right that Connor kills Jasmine and stops that particular piece of vengeance, although I think the brainwashing of humanity was in itself part of an apocalypse, and that part was stopped by Angel.

Although I do think the show will most likely string the final battle out until the very end.

Good point about the final battle issue (although I still think he should chck very carefully as to how the final battle ties into the prophecy).

I would love it though if the show didnt have him vamp out for a long time, and then have it turn out he'd been human for the last year or so, but hadnt noticed. I guess the whole side effects of being a human would probably be obvious though.

However, it would explain the hair.

[> [> [> [> Re: Great thoughts and Shanshu summation -- Masq, 17:55:18 12/08/03 Mon

You're right that Connor kills Jasmine and stops that particular piece of vengeance, although I think the brainwashing of humanity was in itself part of an apocalypse, and that part was stopped by Angel.

Also, I think the wording of the prophecy is that Angel plays "a major role" in the final apocalypse, not that he himself bodily prevents it. If Jasmine's reign was the final apocalypse, Angel both deposes her from power and is responsible for bringing Connor, who kills her, into the world, so....

would love it though if the show didnt have him vamp out for a long time, and then have it turn out he'd been human for the last year or so, but hadnt noticed. I guess the whole side effects of being a human would probably be obvious though.

Alas, he did vamp out in "Destiny", when he and Spike were trying to determine who had the bigger wrinklies around there.

[> [> Does the prophecy actually say 'apocalypse'? -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:20:04 12/08/03 Mon

The way I heard it was that Angel was destined to save the world or destroy it. This doesn't necessarily require a "purification of humanity" type apocalypse (the Tro Clon did, but it is different from the Aberjian one, even though they concern some of the same players).

[> [> [> Re: Does the prophecy actually say 'apocalypse'? -- Masq, 21:34:42 12/08/03 Mon

We don't have much of the actual English translation of the prophecy, much less the original language text. But almost every character who has spoken about the prophecy uses some variation on the word 'apocolypse'--Wesley, the Oracles, Jasmine, the casino owner, the Wolfram and Hart lawyers, etc. See my original post for examples.

I also argue in my original post above that there is no good reason to think that the Nyazian prophecies--which concern Connor, Holtz and the Tro-clon--are part of the "The Vampire with a Soul" prophecies. You can make a case that they if fact are part of it, as RJA does, but the only textual (show) evidence for that is Jasmine's words.

[> [> [> From s1 Angel 'To Shan shu in LA' -- Rufus, 05:54:51 12/09/03 Tue

Wesley is researching while Angel is reading a book and Cordy is reading the paper.

Wesley: "Shanshu. - Shanshu. - Or maybe it's shushan."
Cordy: "Are you still trying to figure out that word? What's taking so long?"
Wesley: "Gee, I don't know, Cordelia. The prophecies of Aberjian were only written over the last 4000 years, in a dozen different languages, some of which aren't even human! Why don't we just get a phalangoid demon in here, suck the brain out of my skull. Maybe that would speed things up."
Cordy: "He sure gets testy when he's translating."
Wesley: "This word is pivotal to what it prophesies about the vampire with a soul."
Cordy: "Well, hurry up and figure out what it says about Angel, because - I wanna know what it says about me. If there is torrid romance in my future - massive wealth? If I have to I'll settle for enviable fame."
Wesley: "This is an ancient sacred text, not a magic eight ball."
Cordy: "Nobody gets my humor."



Wesley after a beat: "I know what it means."
Cordy: "A very wealthy man with just - no life at all?"
Wesley: "No. The word in the scroll."
He goes into Angel's office and the others follow.
Cordy: "That shoe shine thing?"
Wesley: "Shanshu."
Angel sits down and resumes reading his book.
Wesley: "If it isn't Aegean but instead descends from the ancient Majar's then it's root is proto-hugaric. In which case it would mean..."
Cordy: "What?"
Wesley at his book: "Death."
Cordy: "But you said it was all about the vampire with the soul. (Wesley looks at her then they both look at Angel, who is reading his book as if he hadn't even heard Wesley) Angel is going to die?"
Angel glances up: "Oh. Anything else?"
Cordy: "He certainly took that well. - Is this that opportune time to talk about my raise?"
Wesley: "It's probably years off - ah, after the coming battles."
Cordy: "My raise?"
Wesley: "Apocalyptic prophecies aren't exactly a science. And-and I could be way off the mark, so - no reason to be concerned."



Lindsey holds up the scroll: "I see that what happened here tonight was foretold - that doesn't bode well for you. - I see that you are either the one with the power - or you're powerless." I threw that one in cause you may want to think about it for later.

Wesley looking at his books: "Ah - oops. - I may have made a tiny mistake. (Angel sets the cup of blood down and gets up) The word Shanshu that I said meant you were going to die? Actually I think it means that you are going to live."
Cordy: "Okay, as tiny mistakes go - that's not one!"
Wesley: "Shanshu has roots in so many different languages. The most ancient source is the Proto-Bantu and they consider life and death the same thing, part of a cycle, only a thing that's not alive never dies. It's- it's saying - that you get to live until you die. - It's saying - it's saying you become human."
Cordy: "That's the prophecy?"
Wesley: "Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. - It's his reward."
Cordy: "Wow. Angel a human."
Angel: "That'll be nice."
Cordy: "Wait. What's that thing about him having to fulfill his destiny first?"
Wesley: "Well, it's saying that it won't happen tomorrow or the next day. He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed."
Angel: "So don't break out the champagne just yet."
Cordy: "Yeah, break out the champagne, Pinocchio. This is a big deal!"
Angel: "I guess it is."
Cordy: "Typical. I hook up with the only person in history who ever came to LA to get older."


Now you just have to factor in what that Sirk fellow added and consider that most of what he said was bullsh*t, or not...;)

[> [> Re: Great thoughts and Shanshu summation -- Rose, 10:42:51 12/10/03 Wed

Somting I havent seen mentioned yet, as far a sides being grey for the Vwas who would shanshu. For a significant part of buffy season 7 spike was not a garenteed white hat since the first was stuck in his head. The First even mentioned it wasen't his time yet. As if the First expected to have him as an ally in the final fight , and until lies it was a real possibility.
Also what happened with the First had it not been averted seemed pretty apocolyptic to me.

But I am tempted to believe that origionaly the shanshu was ment for Angel.It was never mentioned on buffy.
I wonder if it isn't actually predetermined which vampire will recive it. If not then Angel needs to be carful be fore he scores a forfit by helping the otherside.

[> Escaping destiny -- Gyrus, 14:37:58 12/09/03 Tue

Sahjhan: "Thank god he had some spine. Holtz was useless. He wanted to raise your kid as his own! I'm living with a knife over my heart for eleven hundred years and he's into petty revenge! If he'd just killed the damn thing while it was still in its mother we could have avoided all this!"

Sahjahn appears to believe that prophesied events can be averted. But does he know this from long experience, or is he just in denial? I can't recall a single prophecy from either BTVS or ANGEL that was not fulfilled in some way (save for those that are still pending, like the one Sahjahn mentions). Can anyone think of an example from either show of a prophesied event that was successfully prevented?

[> [> Re: Escaping destiny -- Masq, 14:45:37 12/09/03 Tue

Here is my list of prophecies from both shows. Other than the pending ones, all have occured, or have started and then been thwarted after they begin (e.g., Jasmine's apocalypse, the rise of the demon Barvain in A New Man).

[> [> [> almost -- skeeve, 10:12:39 12/10/03 Wed

It'd take issue with the prophecy about the Annoying One.
Buffy did know him.
Not only that, she knew him before he led her into hell.

I'm aware that there is an interpretation of the prophecy that was fulfilled, but that interpretation is broad to the point of unfalsifiability.

[> Question: Does anyone want to really see Angel shanshu? -- Pony, 09:28:19 12/10/03 Wed

To me shanshu is a resolution, not simply of the series but of the character of Angel himself. Higher up in this thread cjl writes: you have to acknowledge how large the role of guilt and regret and the desire to make amends plays in Angel's psychological make-up. I completely agree, it has been the defining characteristic of this Angel from the very beginning of BtVS. To have the question of redemption and atonement effectively settled, as shanshu seems to imply, would be the end of the story - the story of AtS and the story of Angel. To follow him past that point might be workable but it would lack this central driving narrative. It would be like Spike getting the girl, or Buffy coming of age - and hey, that happened and her story ended. Plus I think Angel would almost immediately find something to feel guilty about because that's how he is, and that's my point.

Admittedly the idea of shanshu hits some of my buttons. I'm not comfortable with the ideas of rewards and destiny. While I appreciate the occasional moments of grace from the universe, like the snowfall in Amends, shanshu seems to involve an external judgement and that implies a Judge. In a 'verse that has always been very anti-authority I can't imagine how the opinion of a higher authority could be presented as a good thing. That's just me though, and I have seen some excellent arguments in the pro-shanshu camp. In any case I don't expect it's something we're going to see anytime soon.

[> [> I'm not comfortable with it either -- Masq, 10:34:52 12/10/03 Wed

I remember as a kid thinking that religion was this way. If I believe in God/Christ because I'm afraid of going to Hell and want to get into Heaven, isn't that a little self-serving? Isn't that believing for the wrong reasons?

Likewise, if Angel (or Spike) fight the Good fight for the reward at the end of the tunnel, aren't they fighting for the wrong (self-serving) reasons? Shouldn't they fight because it is the right thing to do, because they don't want people to suffer?

I rather liked it when Angel stopped believing in the shanshu and fought for other reasons (helping people, love, whatever). Then, if the prophecy was true, becoming human would be a surprise, something he didn't believe in and wasn't expecting.

Besides, who can live day to day with prophecy and destiny dogging your every decision, your every action? Talk about your cup of perpetual torment!

[> [> [> Re: I'm not comfortable with it either -- LittleBit, 11:55:23 12/10/03 Wed

Intriguing concept...does one do good in hope of a reward for doing that good, does one do good to avoid the punishment of not doing so, or does one do good because one finds that to be the right thing to do? In Angel's case I've seen him as not believing in the promise of the Shanshu but not quite disbelieving it either. So that when Spike arrived this season, having been a key player in averting the Sunndydale apocalypse as Angel had been in averting the one in Los Angeles, he went back to the prophecy to see what exactly did it say. Even though in his Epiphany he realized that all he could do was help others day-to-day, it seems as though hidden deep beneath it all was that hope, the hope that the Shanshu prophecy held. Just as we may or may not believe/know that heaven and/or hell exist, there's maybe just that little tiny hope that doing good things because you think it's the right thing to do would end up with the reward of heaven, should it exist.

Now imagine that for some reason, heaven is held as the endpoint of your struggle because of something unique about yourself. Something that defines you, and doesn't apply to anyone else. And then suddenly you learn that you are not unique, that there is someone else, someone who not only has the same quality, but who has also done things similar to what you do. This is where I see Angel right now. He's not doing what he does because of the possible reward, but that tiny hope has always been there, however much he says he disbelieves it. He disbelieves because he doesn't quite dare hope that actively. And now, that tiny hope is in jeopardy. He doesn't expect to get the reward of Shanshu but neither does he want to lose the possibility.

[> [> [> [> Good summation -- Masq, 12:11:59 12/10/03 Wed

There's some good insights there into his current situation, and some possible good quotage for my site....

As for your comments, I think I'd be mightly pissed off if I did good things because I thought they were the right thing to do and not for the reward, and then was sent to hell anyway.

[> [> [> [> [> Me too... unless I can get on the Party Level ;-) -- LittleBit [down there with the Heretics], 13:18:23 12/10/03 Wed


[> [> [> [> [> [> Limbo's fun -- Masq, 13:36:01 12/10/03 Wed

With the virtuous non-believers, philosophers, and unbaptized children. Look me up, that's where I'll be. ; )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> So *that's* how that party game became popular. -- Arethusa, 18:34:53 12/10/03 Wed

Devil: Okay, folks. My two demon friends are going to hold up this pole and whoever can dance underneath it can go to heaven. We'll keep lowering the pole to make the game more interesting.

Kant: What'll we call this game?

Everybody in Purgatory, shouting: LIMBO!

[> [> [> [> [> Gasp! -- Pony, 07:58:20 12/11/03 Thu

I think I'd be mightly pissed off if I did good things because I thought they were the right thing to do and not for the reward, and then was sent to hell anyway.

Masq! Are you arguing Spike's position?

;)