December 2002 posts


Previous December 2002  

January 2003

The Sunday Times Internet Awards 2002 - fanfiction superstar -- Kitkat, 12:59:21 12/30/02 Mon

Thought I'd share another article with a Buffy mention.

The Sunday Times Culture magazine has a section on the Internet which does annual awards for good websites and so on.

I'll write out the relevant section as the Times website makes you pay to access its archives:

"Fan - fiction superstar : Spike, aka William the Bloody

Amateur stories about established characters from fiction continue to be the web's most under-reported phenomenon. Fan fictioneers delight in creating unlikely relationships, so when the undead but sexually charged Spike joined Buffy the Vampire Slayer as her evil vampire nemesis, fan authors immediately elevated him to her potential partner. Sites such as www.buffysearch.com/Fan_Fiction_Sites/Spike_Fanfiction link to thousands of stories coupling the pair. Spike is our star of the year, because this story line has now surfaced in the real television show, an indicator of how fans increasingly influence programme makers."

As to the latter comment, I myself have often noticed that the writers seem to delight in using fan fic ideas ... but twisting them as much as possible - e.g. there are loads of 'Buffy and Angel have a miraculous baby' stories, but when there is a baby storyline, Angel has it with Darla -few writers' choice of mother!

I should also say that as this is an English newspaper, and as the BBC have only just shown the musical, the paper is probably deliberately vague about the direction Spike and Buffy's relationship ends up taking, as in the UK, it hasn't actually taken it yet.. (unless you have Sky/read wildfeeds).

Kitkat
[> OT ( article by Philip Pullman about writing) -- Rahael, 13:20:35 12/30/02 Mon

I hope you don't mind if I tack on another (British as it happens) newspaper article onto your thread!

I thought it was very interesting, and resonated with a lot of issues we discussed here during Season 6

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,865561,00.html
[> [> Wonderful Article -- Sara, 18:50:15 12/30/02 Mon

Really fascinating and true. However, one thing that was not addressed, was what happens if you attempt something and fail. Now, speaking as someone who is often paralyzed by a fear of failure, I do respect people who go out on a limb and would not want to see an artist limited by prior expectations. But how can the audience be honest about failure with discouraging creative growth?

In season six, I often felt the writing was not up to prior standards of consistency and complexity, and yet, there was a strong effort being made to bring something new to the show. By the end of the season alot of the discussion on the board made me realize that my "bad writing" mantra wasn't the whole story, and wasn't necessarily the most productive way of discussing the issues. But, there were real issues to discuss, so it gets tricky. And what happens when the attempt is something provocative, so when the product doesn't contain enough truth to match the ambition, actually damage can be done to members of the audience. Is the attempt at truth enough? I'm inclined to think that "Seeing Red" would not have touched off the amount of pain from both the attempted rape scene and Tara's death, if both of those scenes had been more true to the show, story and characters. This is not saying that either plot point should, or should not have happened, only that if it had been handled better it would not have hurt people or engaged discussions that hurt people.

My last question is does an artist using TV have a larger responsibilty to society than one working in another medium. Since TV has such a strong influence on society, and therefore also a more lucrative return, does the big bucks bring a bigger responsiblity to the audience?

- Sara, lots of questions, no answers...
[> [> [> Creator and audience, OMWF and WitW (AtS Season 3 & BtVS S6 Spoilers ) -- Rahael, 05:55:33 12/31/02 Tue

Good questions - I do indeed think there were faults with Season 6, but do not see any of those problems in Seeing Red - I thought the writing was excellent, the episode complex, moving and daring. In fact, controversial episodes like Dead Things and Seeing Red shone out for me toward the end of season 6, compared to less painful ones like Gone, or Smashed or Wrecked.

So to an extent, it is clear that the idea of failure can be subjective. Usually, my very personal criteria for judging a work tends to lie in the power it exerts over me. Often reading a good poem, I'll gasp. I know when I watch a good tv episode - it's when the narrative takes over, and I forget who or where I am. Same with a great novel, where line after line of flickering prose sends thoughts, images, feelings and ideas alight. I still remember scenes and images from Seeing Red and Death Things, while the rest of Season 6 after Tabula Rasa is much of a muchness.

And at the end of the day, The Body hurt me, in all sorts of good ways. It's unresolved, the issues it brings up are left up in the air - I had to finish the process myself, so I could conclude catharsis. It's still a great episode. I agree with Joss when he said that death never solves anything, that the only thing that death had taught him was that he wished it wasn't. So The Body has no cheering, or wise or consolatory message to give us. Only pain and complexity, the form being true to the content. No incoherent text here.

And I don't think that SR could or should offer us some resolution - this is a deeply divisive and complex issue, and BtVS, as always leaves things open ended, complex, unresolved. Viewing/reading is a two way street. How destructive/healing/contentious/fiery the debate that it sparks can say just as much about the hugely differing views on every part of this episode, and about the lack of a uniform response from individuals who have suffered from such events and who bring their own feelings and experiences to this debate.

It's interesting to consider the seasonal theme of BtVS 7 - power. Does it rest only with the writers? The images depicted on the screen, the actors, their interpretation? No. The reason why it's so compelling is that we share in the interpretation, it is meant to be evocative and resonate with us. We are meant to internalise and question and resist and interact. As Buffy tells us in OMWF "And you can sing along" (though we may not necessarily want to sing her song! Buffy wants to be given something to sing about. Season 6' message was to find your own yourself). And in the AtS episode "Waiting in the Wings", Joss flips the viewer-creator relationship around and around. The Count controls his 'actor' who is forced to give the same performance again and again. Not allowed to deviate. Even the mistake must be reproduced again and again. I think that both OMWF and Waiting in the Wings contain a lot of Joss' thoughts about his hugely popular (and thus, by one criteria at least, successful) creations. Just as Sweet exerts his control and makes Buffy dance, and the Count commands his ballerina to dance again and again for his pleasure.

I also think that they are wry commenataries on his relationships with his characters, and in a sense, he is both the Count and Sweet. The Count's servants wear the masks of tragedy and comedy. His theatre is an illusion, just as the tv sets are. If he is 'stretched' too much, some of it starts rubbing away. He tries to make his characters do what they're told, but they keep resisting!

But we can be the Count too, just as easily, and ME could be Buffy/Ballerina. And when we step into the magic round, who knows what emotions will seize us?

I've just finished watching Angel Season 3 all the way through, and WOW! I loved it, loved it loved it. I can see why certain members of the board got way more captivated by AtS 3 than BtVS 6. I didn't realise how hilarious Sajhan was! I got back *all* my sympathy and liking for Angel (not that I lost it, I just forgot). Connor is actually very sympathetic on screen, much more so than wildfeeds led me to believe. Is it just me, or does anyone else get strong vibes of the Dorothy Dunnett House of Niccolo series with the Angel/Connor relationship? Not that I'm suggesting an influence, just a parallel.

I actually really liked Darla, from the beginning - I used to find her pretty irritating - typical, she has to go and die! On reflection, it is pretty typical for her lol. In fact, I liked everyone. And I discovered that not even blonde hair and glowyness could make me stop liking Cordy.

So I guess what I'm saying is that for me, AtS season 3 just blew BtVS season 6 out of the water. Witness Fangirl enthusiasm. I'm all about AtS at the moment.
[> [> [> [> Re: Creator and audience, success and failure -- Sara, 08:03:28 12/31/02 Tue

Oooh! I just loved your response - first off the description of experiencing words put together just right, I don't gasp, but I do a little internal jump thing whenever I read a couple of words that are beautiful in their combination. A really good poem is more of sigh for me, aaah... Isn't there a real joy to wonderful words? But, also, your answer, brings back to my favorite question, that can never be answered, because it is so incredibly subjective - what is art? vs what is good art/bad art? I don't know why I love that question so much, is it more appealing to be a bad artist then not to be an artist at all, I don't know but I'm starting to digress here (tangents are my life). Not that I would say that season 6 was bad, but the fact that Seeing Red worked so well for you, and not so great for me, puts into perspective the whole work as failure thing. If a canvas with one large colored circle is sitting in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, is the work a failure if I look at it and say "Why?" or am I a failure for not seeing other levels of meaning, or am I just a judgmental pain in the neck for even asking the question, instead of walking by it saying "Not for me"?

By the way, AtS season 3 was amazing, although I did miss Cordelia's edge.

- Sara, who will keep asking questions if you encourage me with such great answers!
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Creator and audience, success and failure -- Rahael, 08:26:49 01/02/03 Thu

Heh. I have to confess that modern art does not work for me. Not in a "it's not art" kind of way, but it's not something I go out of my way to queue up to see. Though I just go for the cop out and say "but of course I'm more interested in early modern art! I can fit it into the novels and the history and the politics!"

I cannot claim to understand modernity all that well! F'rinstance, I'm not all that familiar with Auden, or Eliot, or most 20th Century poets. I just like two, Larkin and Graves, and those because they have been carefully presented to me by someone who loved them passionately and was able to show me 'how to look'. I find that that is often the case.

It's an interesting question to ask, "what is art", because a lot of us here think all sorts of things can be considered art which the 'establishment' might not consider to be art - pop culture, comic books, tv shows, genre.

I often consider myself a snob, but that's only because so much of what I like happens to coincide with the canon. But when I enter the art products of the late 20th C, I become much more unconventional - I read very little 'literature' of the late 20th C. I read a lot of 'genre' - crime writers like Reginald Hill, for example. One of his novels, 'On Beulah Heights' I thought was remarkable. I stayed up all night to read it, and when I cast my mind back, I can remember the landscapes he described, the terrible loss of life, and the haunting music he prefaced each chapter with (lyrics from lieder, by Mahler, if I recall correctly). The idea of loss, of sadness, of complex human relationships, of life and death - they all transcended the actual plot. The victim of the murder was a presence throughout in the most subtle way, because without ever describing her thoughts and feelings, the writer still managed to give us a glimpse at the frightening, beautiful, puzzling world she saw. Plus, he's a very literary writer, very playful, which I tend to appreciate.

I also read a lot of children's literature. So my reading tastes after the 1950s is very populist!

I guess what resonates, what is meaningful for each of us, what engages us, what repulses us, that's what art is. Always self defined, though accepted ideas of what is or isn't art are enormously influential.

But I think that your habit of asking questions is admirable!! Much more interesting and productive to say "why isn't it working for me?" than to not look at it at all. After all, a lot of great art gives us even more questions, provokes us to look again at the world through different eyes, through imaginations and visions not our own.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Modern Art is a strange thing -- Sara, 15:30:42 01/02/03 Thu

I actually really, really like some modern art, whereas some just has me going "huh?" I had a bunch of fun at the Metropolitan Museum of Art with my 16-year-old niece who is currently very into modern art - I wandered around with her saying things like "Look, pretty colors!" and "Well, that's very round." She was pretending not to know me pretty quickly.

Last year at the museum I work at we had a regional art exhibit, and one of the programs involved walking around the gallery with 4 of the artists while they discussed their work, and gave some feedback to each other. One artist was an amazingly talented portrait painter - he brought so much personality and life to these canvases that were 6 feet tall , the expressions on each face was just wonderful. So then we walk over to photographs of another artist which basically look like 3 grey squares. Somehow they're interior shots of a room, but you'd never know it unless someone told you. The photographer talked about his work being influenced by early landscape photography of the American West, and how he was looking to create certain values, using light and dark, and actually it was really interesting except for the fact that he was talking about 3 grey squares...again I say "huh?" But the really bizarre thing was that the really talented portrait painter was really impressed with the 3 grey squares guy! Here's a guy with technique, style and substance who can't get over how wonderful 3 out of focus shots of a ceiling are.

I can't tell whether there's just a lot of stuff in the world I just don't see, or whether it's the Emperor's New Clothes. I can't help but feel that when I answer that question the mysteries of life will somehow unfurl themselves for me. Probably not...

- Sara
[> [> [> [> Nice post. Yes on Dunnett. -- aliera, 09:15:28 12/31/02 Tue

What's the half-way shock going to be this year? -- KdS, 13:49:56 12/30/02 Mon

OK, by my count we have on more episode 'til we reach the half-way point of the season, and every season so far there's been some big revelation or plotquake at or just after that point:

Season 1: Angel - Angel's a vampire
Season 2: Surprise/Innocence - Angel loses his soul
Season 3: Bad Girls/Consequences - Faith's mental and moral breakdown
Season 4: The I In Team - Maggie tries to kill Buffy and gets offed by Adam
Season 5: Blood Ties - Ben is Glory's secret sharer
Season 6: Dead Things - Warren kills Katrina, the Trio aren't just comic relief any longer, and Spuffy gets really twisted

Suggestions: (entirely unspoiled)
Evil!Xander
FirstEvil!Giles
Evil!Wood
Watcher!Wood
WhiteRider!Giles (ask a Tolkein fan)
Dawn gets green and glowy
Jonathan Levinson rises as FE's physical form
Everyone's in an alternate dimension/mutual hallucination
Some combination of above
Buffy finds a big black sword with funny writing all down it ;-)
[> Crap! Spoilers for all episodes WttH-Bring On the Night above -- KdS, 13:52:05 12/30/02 Mon

[> More importantly: Just how bad will Buffy's birthday suck this year? -- HonorH, 23:50:19 12/30/02 Mon

Or will they pull a surprise and not have it suck at all? Will Buffy spend the entire day jumping at shadows--and nothing bad happens at all?

Lessee, so far we've had:
--Angel lose his soul right after deflowering Buffy
--Buffy lose her powers thanks to the Wankers' Council
--Giles get turned into a demon after a night ill-spent with Ethan Rayne
--Dawn discover she's the Key and the resultant sturm und drang
--Everyone get locked inside Buffy's house

I also like to think that Buffy's 15th birthday was when she got called as a Slayer and her 16th birthday was when she burned down the gym and got booted from Hemery High.

So what will the suck-fest be this year?
[> [> Isn't it on her 16th birthday that... -- KdS, 03:06:00 12/31/02 Tue

Hank turns up and tells her that she caused her parents' divorce, she gets buried alive, and turns into a vampire (Nightmares)?
[> [> [> No, that was in April/May -- Scroll, 11:10:53 12/31/02 Tue

Buffy's birthday is in January (best date is January 19) and Nightmares is set near the end of the school year, around April or May. But we do know from Surprise that Buffy had failed her driving exam the year before, possibly on her 16th birthday?
[> [> Re: More importantly: Just how bad will Buffy's birthday suck this year? -- Spike Lover, 09:40:10 12/31/02 Tue

I think she ought to have sex with Spike...


No, wait, that is what I want for MY birthday. Just send him over.
My analysis of "Bring on the Night" is up -- Masquerade, 19:46:57 12/30/02 Mon

Here.
[> Happy, happy! Joy, joy! -- deeva, 21:01:17 12/30/02 Mon

Something to do in this winter break of Buffy stuff!
[> Turok-Han and Neanderthals -- Sci, 00:13:24 12/31/02 Tue

Ya know, I was always taught that Neanderthals and modern Humans are the same species, different sub-species. Neanderthals constitute Homo sapien neandertalensis on the Big Chart Of Species Whose Technical Name I Cannot Recall, and Humans constitute Homo sapien sapien. So it may be possible that the Turok-Han is, indeed, the Demon that first created Vampires.

Oh. And since I feel like posting this, I think I will. It's my conjectural theory of the nature and history of the Buffyverse.

Here's my personal take on the Buffyverse. I admit that I fumble a bit with what Giles says in "The Harvest." My explanation: Uh, whoever wrote his book goofed. Yes. That's it. Blame it on translation problems! It's totally non-canon and prone to being contradicted these days, but I rather think it's an interesting read.

In the beginning, there was only this dimension. The Earthly plane. Then, as now, the First Evil was waging its terrible war against the forces of Good, for the First Evil has existed longer than any corporeal being; it created Evil, IS Evil itself, and has been waging its war since before the Old Ones. The Old Ones, Demons, ancient creatures of undisclosed origins, walked this Earth, making it their Hell, for billions of years. Though not all Demons were evil, most were, especially the ones who held power over other Demons.

Then something happened.

Somehow, the Demons lost their purchase on this reality, according to later reports. Almost like they'd stop paying the rent and the landlord had evicted them. The way was made for the mortal animals -- Man. The Key was created then, to separate the realms.

The Hell dimensions and the Heavenly dimensions were then created. Some Demons went to the Hell dimensions, where they fit right in at home. Others went to the Heavenly dimensions, rewarded by whatever Powers control the multiverse for their virtue. The path was clear.

The Big Bang. Our universe is created -- or, rather, recreated. Billions of years pass. This Earth is formed once again. Life begins to evolve where before only Demons were known.

Things are going well for the forces of Good.

Then something happens. The Demons return. Not all, and not pure. These Demons cannot be pure -- for whatever reason, pure Demons may not travel between dimensions. The Old Ones now had some of the New One's blood within them. But somehow, the Old Ones walked the Earth again, though in smaller numbers. The old tenents just broke back into the apartment. The Hellmouth, an area beneath the Earth where the barriers between the Earthly realm and the Demon dimensions is weakened, was created.

Man begins to evolve (though, at this stage, is what would later become known as the Neanderthal), and the Demons finally encounter their new rivals. That, at least, is how some see us; others see in us only a new source of food, as in the Turok-Han, terrible, violent Demons of questionable sentience. They fed upon Humans and their ancestors for food and for drink, ingesting our blood and the blood of our ancestors for nourishment.

Whatever Powers control this realm saw that the Turok-Han's
evil had the potential to drive Man into extinction. So champions for the forces of Good within Man began to battle the Turok-Han, driving them into extinction. All but one were killed. This one sought to escape into the Demon dimensions, and travelled across the globe to the Hellmouth, pursued by Men seeking to kill it. Its enemies thwarted its attempt to enter the Hell dimensions, instead imprisioning it beneath an artifact of Dark Magicks that would later become known as the Seal of Danzalthar. But before it was imprisioned, the last of the Turok-Han bit a Man and mixed its blood in him....

Turning him.

The first Vampire had been created.

Later knowledge of the origins of vampires was lost, but they were a plague. They spread their evil across the globe, preying upon an unsuspecting Mankind, increasing their numbers. Finally, the elders and shamans -- witches, warlocks, and wizards them all -- of many villiages in the Middle East met. They invoked the strongest and most dangerous magicks they could summon, to create a power that could fight the Vampires. A power that lived in the body of a girl. The First Slayer, later refered to in both awe and
condescension as "The Primitive," was born.

Throughout the ages, the Slayer haunted the Demons and the Vampires, never seeking any goal beyond maintaining the status quo -- killing the Vampires and the Old Ones. Though knowledge of the existence of Slayers was often lost in many areas, over the ages, Humanity began to create volumes of texts containing information and observations of the various supernatural forces operating on the Earthly plane. The Druids, centered in the British Isles, began to accumulate many of these texts; when the Druids re-discovered the existence of Slayers, it was decided that there must be an organizing force behind the Slayers. One that would train and raise and direct Slayers in their Holy War against the forces of the First Evil.

The Watcher's Council was formed.

Whenever dark or powerful magicks are invoked, there are always consequences. Always limits. When the Powers sought to create the Slayer at the behest of Man, there were limits set. It was part of the deal; otherwise, the First Evil would step up its war against Good and upset the fragile balance between Good and Evil. In any given decade, there are only 20 Human girls with the potential to become Slayers (an arbitrary number I picked 'cos it sounded good) born. When one dies before being Called, nothing happens. It takes nearly ten years before a new generation of Slayers can reach maturity. And if all the potential Slayers are killed, and then the active Slayers killed... then as part of the bargain with the First Evil, the Slayer line would end forever.

The Watcher's Council, according to Tales of the Slayer, Vol. I, relies on an enchanted object known as the Show Stone, which they use to detect when a new potential Slayer is born. The Council is ancient enough that it is, in some cultures (such as Kendra's or England, apparently), able to simply find a newborn Slayer-to-be, announce their presence, and take the babe, to be raised as the daughter of a Watcher, trained from birth. In other societies, such as the American one, it is often unable to locate Slayers-to-be until they are Called by the Powers. Presumably, American Slayers don't have a good survival rate; Buffy and Faith seem to be the exceptions to the rule.

Thus it has operated in this manner for ages. A limited number of Slayers, constantly vulnerable to attack, which would forever destroy the Slayer line and decimate Good's ability to battle Evil. The Slayer, aided (some would say controled) by the Council, and other Champions of Good throughout the world, seeking not to win the battle against Evil, but only to maintain a desparate status quo and to stop the occasion apocalypse. As before, some of the Old Ones walking this realm were among the Champions of Good, and so would often aid the Council and the Slayer; but not as before, other agents of Evil were among the Humans. Though the Slayer is forbidden to kill Man, it had, on occasion, been necessary.

Such was the way of things for thousands of years. From the birth of the Slayer in 198,000 B.C. (when Neanderthals emerged) to the birth of the Watcher's Council almost 6,000 years ago. This, of course, makes the Council a relatively new institution; for 194,000 years, Slayers operated on a local level without the Watcher's Council. Kinda puts the Council's arrogance in perspective, eh? Over the centuries, new ways of battling the Vampires emerged; wheather because Christian monks knowledgable in the Good Magicks binded a spell to repell vampires to them, or wheather because of the spirit of holiness and self-sacrifice that they represent, it was discovered that crosses and crucifixes and holy water all harm Vampires. Ingestion of holy water can even kill them, as would, presumably, touching a cross or crucifix for a long period of time. And while some gods are known to exist, they are akin to the polytheistic gods of ancient myth; no One God akin to the God of Israel is known to exist or not exist, unless He is the Powers.

So, that's how things were up until the Call of Buffy Summers.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
[> [> Oops. My bad. SPOILERS above for Buffy up to S7, and for parts of "Fray" (nt) -- Sci, 00:18:58 12/31/02 Tue

nt
[> [> Re: Turok-Han and Neanderthals -- Darby, 08:01:13 12/31/02 Tue

Whether Neanderthals are a separate species or not depends upon who's doing the conjecturing. There's precious little to base an opinion on (well, they don't think so), so it's not worth BtVS making a stand.

The Neanderthals were physically different from the Cro-Magnons, enough that a vamped Neanderthal might be quite a different beast. The Turok-Han (and where'd they get the name, reminiscent of orcs, dinosaur hunters and rogues?) just need to be surviving Neanderthal vamps - there sure wouldn't be many left, no wonder they were thought to be myths. And, being as a very old vamp is harder to kill by conventional means - remember Kakistos? - it may not be immune to staking or the other basic approaches. Buffy may just need a bigger stake.

I've got a couple of problems with your scenario. The first is just mine - just from a physics standpoint, I have no trouble with the idea that many dimensions have existed right from the start, so the need to make them doesn't resonate with me (although it might explain where a glowy green sphere of energy came from). Too geocentric, though.

The bigger problem is the idea that Evil (or Good) can exist as an entity unto itself. In fact, we're being largely told exactly the opposite, that the First is a manifestation of the Evil that exists in living beings. This is an entity with a more complex backstory than it wants its opponents to believe. It was somebody, at some point, who became the embodiment of Evil and just hyped its origins from there, who is linked to the evil in humans and demons alike, and who appears when a true challenge to the status quo - atypical vampires, in Buffy's case - show up. Or that's my take on it, anyway.

I've read the first Tales; where was this Show Stone mentioned?
[> [> [> I'm no physicist, but.... -- Flo, 13:31:41 12/31/02 Tue

...here's what I think. If, as you say, plenty of dimensions have existed "right from the start," then who's to say when the start actually occurred? As far as I understand things, there wasn't really a single-point start to all of this because time isn't quite so easy to nail down in terms of location. So, is it possible that in some sense we are still at the start and, therefore, that it's perfectly appropriate for Dawn to go around making new dimensions afterall?

Or, let's say it's impossible to create new dimensions at this point. It seems that in the Buffyverse it is very-much possible to create new realities within different dimensions. So, are all the possible dimensions already available to us, and now we get to manipulate the number of realities that are possible in each dimension? In the case of the proposed scenario, can demons be banished to another reality within a pre-existing dimension? Would this confine them? Is it easier to move through different realites than it is to move through different dimensions?

OK, now I'm in a tangle. Anyone who has a better understanding of physics, or just a more inventive version of the physical world -- please share your knowledge!
[> [> [> Question -- Rufus, 18:30:22 12/31/02 Tue

Giles: UH, WHAT YOU FOUGHT WAS A VAMPIRE, BUT IT WAS, UM, SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT. IT WAS A TUROK-HAN. AS NEANDERTHALS ARE TO HUMAN BEINGS, THE TUROK-HAN ARE TO VAMPIRES. THEY'RE A PRIMORDIAL, FEROCIOUSLY POWERFUL KILLING MACHINE, AS SINGLE-MINDED AS ANIMALS. THEY ARE THE VAMPIRES THAT VAMPIRES FEAR. AN ANCIENT AND ENTIRELY DIFFERENT RACE, AND UNTIL THIS MORNING, I THOUGHT THEY WERE A MYTH.

There seems to be other types of vampires, I remember the guy in Angel in "No Place Like Plrtz Glrb" mentioning a "van-tal". As the vampires that Buffy deals with are actually a hybrid of human and blood drinking demon, does that mean that the main difference between the Uber-vamp and earthly vampires is the fact that the Uber-vamp may be pure demon one of the type of demon that created the hybrid in this dimension? Or, is the Uber-vamp the original hybrid created before man evolved into present form?
[> [> [> [> not an answer, but some thoughts -- Flo, 19:15:32 12/31/02 Tue

Remember just before Graduation when Anya freaked out about the Ascension? She said that the demons that walk the Earth are actually human-demon hybrids -- real demons are more monstrous, like Laconis. So, if the Uber-vamp is a pre-vamp demon, he's a demon-human hybrid. This means that when one of his kind eventually joined with a human to create vamps of the Darla variety, they ended up with a creature that is three quarters human, one quarter demon. This heredity makes sense in light of the incredible humanness we see in present-day vamps. They have emotion and passion, they feel physical pain like humans, etc.

In fact, now that I think about it, I would argue that present-day vamps do indeed have souls, despite the Buffyverse line that they don't. Vamps like Spike, Drusilla, and even Angelus are some of the most "soulful" characters around. Passion, love, despair, rage, devotion -- all these things that we humans so poetically cling to as the soul of our existence -- the vamps have them in aces.

Maybe we just want to believe that they're soulless in order to relieve that nagging possibility that we're all capable of the destruction that vamps are so passionately involved in.

Wow, I sound like a vamp-worshipper. Just call me Chanterelle...
[> [> [> [> [> Mind, Body, and Spirit -- Finn Mac Cool, 23:08:53 12/31/02 Tue

I think the problem here comes from a discrepency between you and Mutant Enemy over what a soul is (please note that the following explanation of souls and spirits is entirely based around the Buffyverse, it does not reflect my personal opinions on these matters in the real world):

A person is traditionally divided into three components of mind, body, and spirit. The mind stores our memories and intelligence. The body provides us with a physical vessel for traveling in this world. The spirit provides our emotions and conscience.

Now, by your reasoning, a creature without a soul would be an emotionless automaton, like a robot. And I would agree that a robot is soulless. It possesses a physical body made of metal, and many have a computer for a mind, but lack the spirit which provides the ability to feel emotionally.

But vampires aren't like robots. They have emotion and are driven by their own goals and desires. So they must have souls, right? Not exactly. I will say that vampires possess the full combination of mind, body, and spirit. However, their spirits are of a different kind than humans. A human's spirit allows the ability to have emotions and provides the instinctual impulse to do good (though many humans have been able to stifle their conscience's and become amoral). A vampire's spirit allows the ability to have emotions, but also provides an instincutal impulse to do evil (though some vampires, like Spike and Harmony, also are pretty much amoral). To differentiate between these two types of spirits, a human spirit is called a soul, while a vampire spirit is called a demon.

Also, here's a quote by Joss that addresses this same issue (you can find it and other helpful tidbits under Masq's "Metaphysics" section at ATPoBtVS):

"...Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. ...I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle." (Joss Whedon, 3/30/01 The 18th Annual William S. Paley Television Festival)
[> [> [> [> [> [> The whole quote... -- Rufus, 01:33:49 01/01/03 Wed

I have to give the site I found that quote from a bit or recognition......

City of Angel

The Paley Festival, March 30, 2001

Audience Member: "I'd like to know what your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel from the other vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel that vampires have human emotions and human attachments. So is that a conscience? And then what separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"

JW: "Um, very little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. So they can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can actually want to do things that will make that person happy in the way they know they would. The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."


Now back to how to make a demon hybrid.........

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.

So, does soulless mean devoid of any kind of soul or just a human soul?
[> [> [> [> Has anybody else wondered... -- Darby, 21:42:41 12/31/02 Tue

...What one gets when a human-demon hybrid (like Doyle, or Glowy Cordy, Anyanka, or many of the demons we see) gets vamped? Can they be vamped? Can Lorne?
[> [> [> Re: Turok-Han and Neanderthals (Spoilers for "Tales of the Slayer, Vol. I") -- Sci, 19:28:33 12/31/02 Tue

Whether Neanderthals are a separate species or not depends upon who's doing the conjecturing. There's precious little to base an opinion on (well, they don't think so), so it's not worth BtVS making a stand.

*shrugs* I think that the door is open for the Ubervamp to have been the Demon that created Vampires, though, given the conflicting accounts of the relationship between Humans and Neanderthals. (I'd add, though, that it's unlikely that Neanderthal Vamps would be like the Ubervamp -- the primary differences between modern Humans and Neanderthals are in size. Neanderthals were larger, stockier, and their skulls were larger. They actually had bigger brains than we do.)

I've got a couple of problems with your scenario. The first is just mine - just from a physics standpoint, I have no trouble with the idea that many dimensions have existed right from the start, so the need to make them doesn't resonate with me (although it might explain where a glowy green sphere of energy came from). Too geocentric, though.

Well, look at my little scenerio, though. It has the Big Bang occuring -- the creation of this universe -- after the Demons have been expelled. In other words, the Key may have been forged to separate the dimensions and to cause this universe to be re-created in the Big Bang. Just a rough attempt on my part to explain why the Demons are so big on wanting this dimension back and to reconcile real science with the Buffyverse.

The bigger problem is the idea that Evil (or Good) can exist as an entity unto itself. In fact, we're being largely told exactly the opposite, that the First is a manifestation of the Evil that exists in living beings. This is an entity with a more complex backstory than it wants its opponents to believe. It was somebody, at some point, who became the embodiment of Evil and just hyped its origins from there, who is linked to the evil in humans and demons alike, and who appears when a true challenge to the status quo - atypical vampires, in Buffy's case - show up. Or that's my take on it, anyway.

We're obviously getting totally different vibes from the show, then, because the impression I'm getting of the First Evil is it's a noncorporeal entity that created Evil, that IS Evil itself, and that lives within every other entity. "I'm in every drop of hate..." etc., and that it's the Head Honcho of the Evil side of this Great And Terrible War Between Good And Evil In Which Our Heroes Are Mere Footsoliders (TM).

I've read the first Tales; where was this Show Stone mentioned?

"The White Doe," by Christie Golden; page 24, bottom. Page 25, middle.

From page 24:

"In the center of the room, sitting expressionless at a table in front of a large black orb, was John Dee. His eyes glittered in the flickering illumination of candles and lamps. Before him, his Show Stone, upon which the Watchers relied heavily, also caught the glame of cnadlelight, but nothing more."

From page 25:

"The seeming statue moved to life. John Dee sat straighter in his chair. When he spoke, his long beard termbled. 'My Show Stone has told me that very soon, the Slayer for whom we wait shall be born. Her birthplace is the New World. It is entirely possible that she could be a savage, such as our Croatoan Indian friends, Manteo, Wanchese, and Towaye.' "
[> [> [> [> Re: Turok-Han and Neanderthals (Spoilers for "Tales of the Slayer, Vol. I") -- Darby, 21:53:57 12/31/02 Tue

It's somewhat arbitrary, but any comics material that doesn't come from the ME staffers doesn't pass as canon to me - there's no reason to think that the writers do (or can) pay attention to anything they don't create themselves. The weird thing is that I can't find a Tales written by anyone other than the show's writers - the thick unnumbered one is by Joss and others from the staff (plus Amber Benson), the latest number 1 by Jane Espenson.
[> [> [> [> [> Ah, but that story is in... -- KdS, 06:23:55 01/01/03 Wed

The prose Tales of the Slayer collection which is written by the same authors who did the prose spin-off novels. I think I've heard that the ME writers have no definite editorial control over the content of the prose spin-offs, so I think we can regard this as non-canonical.
[> [> [> [> Re: Turok-Han and Neanderthals (Spoilers for "Tales of the Slayer, Vol. I") -- VR, 17:37:36 01/01/03 Wed

Whether Neanderthals are a separate species or not depends upon who's doing the conjecturing. There's precious little to base an opinion on (well, they don't think so), so it's not worth BtVS making a stand.

*shrugs* I think that the door is open for the Ubervamp to have been the Demon that created Vampires, though, given the conflicting accounts of the relationship between Humans and Neanderthals. (I'd add, though, that it's unlikely that Neanderthal Vamps would be like the Ubervamp -- the primary differences between modern Humans and Neanderthals are in size. Neanderthals were larger, stockier, and their skulls were larger. They actually had bigger brains than we do.)

Actually, we only know that neandertalensis had a larger cranial capacity. That doesn't necessarily mean bigger brain mass. Bone is very sensitive. It can form into a variaty of shapes. The larger cranial capacity could have been could have been caused by an increase in the amount of fluid that surrounds the brain. What's often refered to as a "caveman brow" developed from an increase in the useage of the front teeth as opposed to the back ones. As the importance of using the front teeth decreased, the brow shrunk again.

I do have one problem with your theory. Based on skeletal (which is proably one of the , if not the, best evidence in paleontology) and mitochondrial DNA evidence, neandertalensis and sapiens are actually sister groups (populations after a branching event) with a common ancestor. Now, if the Turok-Han is really the neandertalensis equivilent in the vampire lineage, I don't think the Turok-Han could have made the vamps we've been exposed to before.
Vampires on daytime soaps -- luna, 08:25:15 12/31/02 Tue

While stuck in an airport for a long time, I read old soap summaries and discovered a major vampire thread (in fact, seems to be the entire plot) on "Port Charles." The current ones aren't quite as vamp obsessed, but here's a sample:

http://abc.soapsindepth.com/storylineinfo/storyline_recaps.asp?soap=pc

I never have time to watch during the day. Has anybody seen any of this?
[> cjl y "Beso de Los Vampiros" -- cjl, 08:49:04 12/31/02 Tue

More vamps-in-soaps news:

Every once in a while, at the end of a long day, I flip to Channel 47 in New York and check out some of the telenovelas (night time soaps) on Univision. They're entirely in Spanish, of course--and I couldn't put together a complete sentence in Spanish if you paid me. So why do I tune in and watch?

I could lie and tell you I'm fascinated by the visual/iconic cues in this form of Latino entertainment or I'm slumming and broadening my analysis of "themes in pulp storytelling." But if you pinned me down and threatened me with a continuous loop of "Men in Black II," I'd be forced to admit I watch for the babes. (There's this amazing, thoroughly evil long-legged brunette in "La Vengenza"...ok, maybe I've said too much here.)

Anyway, there's a new telenovela debuting tonight: "Beso de Los Vampiros" ("Kiss of the Vampires"--duh). It looks like a Spanish-language update of Dark Shadows. No modern vamps in black leather, a la Buffy: it's all Transylvanian classic with long black capes drawn menacingly over the face (just below those dark, evil eyes) and an innocent young couple just waiting to be corrupted by jaded middle-aged vamps. It looks like total cheese. Naturally, I'll be tuning in. If they have anything close to the vampire babes from "Buffy vs. Dracula," I almost have to.
[> Re: Vampires on daytime soaps -- JeniLynn, 11:09:37 12/31/02 Tue

I watched this soap when I was home on bedrest recently. They seem to have made up their own vampire mythology. There are two "slayers" one has no power the other is an angel that decided to come back to earth. The vampire is able to control his urges and conceal himself with a special mixture that he drinks. The vampire recently returned to earth from hell after he was staked through the heart. Apparently daytime soap vampires don't become dust when staked.
[> [> Re: Vampires on daytime soaps -- Juliet, 18:36:45 01/01/03 Wed

I watched a few eps of Port Charles, and came to this conclusion:

At least Buffy is trying to be funny.
[> Re: Vampires on daytime soaps -- Indri, 19:38:53 01/01/03 Wed

There used to be an Australian soap opera, about a family that won the lottery, called Chances. I believe it started without any supernatural elements but ended with most of the cast being killed by vampires.
From just north of the Big Apple -- Brian(wrapped in the bosom of close friends), 15:58:57 12/31/02 Tue

Happy New Year, Posters All!

May 2003 be a year against the darkling tide and bring peace, harmony, and good will.
[> Thank you, kind sir! **From the opposite coast...** -- Wisewoman, 16:22:50 12/31/02 Tue

A Happy New Year to you, and all at ATPoBtVS&AtS, and Happy Anniversary to Masq and the site!

(And watch out for those bosoms...)

dub ;o)
[> From just east of the Rocky Mountains. (God's country ;)) -- LadyStarlight, 18:43:17 12/31/02 Tue

Adding my wishes to Brian's. May everyone have a year of goodwill & love.
[> From right in the heart of the Big Apple...love ya guys! :o) -- Rob, 18:49:43 12/31/02 Tue

[> Re: From south of the BA--have a really great one! -- luna, 19:18:03 12/31/02 Tue

[> From West of Albany,NY - All good things! -- Sara, getting a head start breaking her resolutions, 19:34:04 12/31/02 Tue

[> From west of the Rockies and headed to the coast -- Flo, who has never been resolved to anything, 19:50:40 12/31/02 Tue

[> From the Sonoran Desert -- CW, 20:10:58 12/31/02 Tue

A peaceful New Year too all.

Happy anniversary Masq! Thanks for all the hours you put in on Buffy and Angel for all of us!
[> From Beautiful Vancouver Island -- Cougar, 21:27:12 12/31/02 Tue

Finding this board in 2002 has brought me much happy goodness. Thanks to all the invisible contributors. Can't see you but I'm glad you're there!

May sunrise bring you all a Pacific New Year.

Love from Cougar
[> Many returns on your felicitous tidings! -- deeva, from lovely San Francisco, 23:59:35 12/31/02 Tue

[> From Brooklyn, New Yawk--Happy New Year! -- cjl, 00:49:14 01/01/03 Wed

[> HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 01:35:29 01/01/03 Wed

[> [> From The East Coast Of Scotland -- DP, 05:50:48 01/01/03 Wed

And ther's a hand, my trusty friend,
And gie's a hand o' thine;
We'll tak' a cup o' kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.
For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne,
We'll tak' a cup o' kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.

***Happy New Year Everyone***
[> Happy New Year all... -- KdS, 06:27:18 01/01/03 Wed

Best wishes to everyone. Thanks to Masq for the site, SK for the essays, Honor and OnM for the reviews, Rah for the poetry, cjl for the skits, and everyone else for the things that don't come instantly to mind :-)
[> And more good wishes from the middle of nowhere! -- Kitt in Alabama, 08:19:51 01/01/03 Wed

[> Happy New Year and Happy Anniversary! -- Scroll, 12:23:12 01/01/03 Wed

To Masq and all of us Existential Scoobies:

Best wishes for the new year!

From the chilly 'burbs of Toronto, Canada.
[> From northeastern Oklahoma, Happy New Year! -- Rattletrap, 17:32:45 01/01/03 Wed

[> Very late... but Happy New Year from Toronto! -- ponygirl, 07:37:39 01/02/03 Thu

Hope everyone had a great New Year's Eve and a hangover-free New Year's Day!
[> Happy New Year - belatedly from Hilton Head Island, SC -- shadowkat (still on vacation), 07:52:55 01/02/03 Thu

[> Happy New Year from central Ohio, and happy anniversary to ATPoBtVS! -- tim, 12:44:18 01/02/03 Thu

[> Wrapped in bosom - I guess Brian's having a GREAT new year -- Caroline, 13:12:09 01/02/03 Thu

Alter Ego Resolutions -- The Pushy Queen of Slut Town, 16:30:42 12/31/02 Tue

I've been watching my alter ego write down his list of new year resolutions, a bland and unoriginal listing of impossible goals such as "lose 10 pounds" (like I'd let him give up our nightly chocolate binges). Anyhow, I've come up with a few of my own resolutions on ways to be a better evil overlord. I'd like to know if any of the other hell gods, demons or minor uglies have come up with their own lists.

Honorificus, being perfection itself, will be excused from discussion, although I suspect that she may have some pointers for the rest of us.

Here are my evil resolutions for 2003:
1. Train minions to properly maim and injure the do-gooders.
2. Find an efficient way to kill the Slayer. No more attacks by minions, kidnapping the whiny one, or direct confrontation.
3. Learn to speak Turok-hanish. The language barrier is the only thing preventing me from properly seducing that lovely uber-vamp.
4. Next time I kidnap the whiny one, I will kill her immediately, instead of using her as bait for the slayer. Even if this results in a great deal of personal pain at the hands of the cursed Buffy, the world will be a better place.
5. Corrupt my sniveling alter-ego to the cause of evil.
6. Put away some kittens for a sunny day. Under no circumstances will I get another loan on the fuzzballs entrees. Stealing kittens is still acceptable.
7. No more gloating before all the sniveling good guys are lying cold and dead at my feet.
8. Meet my lawyer at Wolfram and Hart to discuss post-Apocalypse contractual agreements. I have a feeling they are trying to cheat me out of some prime real estate in the Florida everglades and a couple thousand mortal slaves.
9. Four words: More Naked Spike Torture
10. Take better care of my prize-winning ferns, torture minions more.
[> Warning: the above post only contains the barest of spoilers up to BtVS 7.10 (NT) -- Tyreseus (who will be losing ten pounds this year), 16:37:44 12/31/02 Tue

[> [> congrats on the future losing -- Sara, who will think alot about losing 10 lbs this year, 21:44:49 12/31/02 Tue

[> [> [> If either of you have any spare flesh send it my way... -- ponygoyle (looking to gain), 10:57:07 01/02/03 Thu

... so that the ground trembles at my approach and the sky weeps under the weight of my wings! Also it's a great excuse to buy new clothes. So feel free to strip off any excess poundage (skin, bones and blood are all accepted), pack it in a resealable container and ship it on over.
[> [> [> [> Fed Ex or UPS? -- Sara, always looking to help a pal, 15:05:51 01/02/03 Thu

Let's try and make two goyles for the price of one. Never enough real earth shaking, fear inspiring around to keep me happy.
[> A splendid list, dear! -- Honorificus (Who Needs No Resolutions), 16:54:50 12/31/02 Tue

I would, however, inform you that learning Turok-hanish is a futile enterprise. They have no language, which is one of their charms. They respond only to the will of pure Evil, the call of blood, and a nice lager. However, if you're truly set on getting into its leather pants, I happen to know that it will recognize the mating call of the Gehrkl-thot clan and come running. Beyond that, I'd set the scene: a nice, dark, dank cavern, some screaming human captives, a few torture implements--your standard seduction scenario, in other words. Open your musk glands to the full, and let 'er rip. Good luck, dear!

A thought: I do actually have one resolution. I've decided that those Uruk-hai in the "Lord of the Rings" movies are just too lovely to be purely imaginary, so I'm going to do a little genetic engineering and breed up some of my own. Once I've perfected them, I'll be taking orders.
[> Three words -- luna, 19:20:16 12/31/02 Tue

More, More, More!
[> Resolutions of a Dangerous Mind -- Apophis (I'm my own alter-ego), 00:13:08 01/01/03 Wed

1) Destroy John Travolta in every way possible.
2) Molt less (when you're a 60 foot serpent, it gets messy).
3) Convince Faith that redemption is for losers and offer her a place to stay post prison (I figure after a few years in jail, I'll be looking pretty good).
4) Get Frank to accept the pain.
5) Give peace a chance (and if you believe that...)
6) Destroy all light, plant the seeds of hatred and wrath in the righteous, defile the pure, silence all goodness and decency in the world, and send the universe spirling into an eternal miasma of chaos and despair.
7) Learn French.
I hope that this new year brings you all prosperity and death and that the dawn will reveal to me the wreckage of the Boat of a Million Years. Now eat your potatoes.
[> [> I like your resolutions, dear. -- Honorificus (The Perfectly Perfect), 22:17:04 01/01/03 Wed

1) Destroy John Travolta in every way possible.

Can I help in any way? Loan you minions? Weapons? Hair gel?

2) Molt less (when you're a 60 foot serpent, it gets messy).

Oh, don't molt less; capitalize! I've a few fashion designer friends who would simply kill for a 60-foot snake skin. Call my secretary minion, and she'll set something up.

3) Convince Faith that redemption is for losers and offer her a place to stay post prison (I figure after a few years in jail, I'll be looking pretty good).

Get in line, sweetie. I've already made her one offer, which she said she'd look at along with the others. Don't know who's trying to snake me, but I will not stand for it. Whoever you are, watch out.

4) Get Frank to accept the pain.

Who's this Frank, and what *does* he have against pain? Humans and their irrational prejudices, I swear . . .

5) Give peace a chance (and if you believe that...)

You are *so* droll, darling!

6) Destroy all light, plant the seeds of hatred and wrath in the righteous, defile the pure, silence all goodness and decency in the world, and send the universe spirling into an eternal miasma of chaos and despair.

You're only just now resolving to do this? I've had a plan in motion for the last century. And no, I'm not being slow; I'm savoring. When you've got my lifespan, why hurry? Unless there's chocolate in the offing, of course.

7) Learn French.

Such a dull language. You want an adventure, learn Grishnakh. Do you know how many words they have for "blood"?

I hope that this new year brings you all prosperity and death and that the dawn will reveal to me the wreckage of the Boat of a Million Years. Now eat your potatoes.

All my best to you, too, dear. As for that boat, have you checked under the sofa in Hell? I'm always losing stuff there.

Current board | January 2003