December 2002 posts
(Just
watched Buffy 3.9 "Amends") Thoughts on The First
-- David Frisby,
17:38:14 12/23/02 Mon
I just watched "Amends" (Buffy 3.9) again and a thought
I think worth mentioning. With regard to the question of Angel's
return, the answers seem to turn on either "The First"
or "The Powers that Be" or "Buffy's love (represented
by her placing her half of the ring Angel gave her at the spot
she killed him). Now "if" the buffyverse really is a
godless world (so to speak, given the atheism of Joss), then perhaps
an old-fashioned "Gnostic" reading of the buffyverse
will be apt. That is, the entire postulated Biblical theology
is incorrect, and the world is much more complex with many deities,
and humanity is not its center. In fact, Jehovah or Yahweh or
the Biblical god is evil, not good, and wants humanity to remain
ignorant of everything but their holding him first (no other gods
before him, etc). The truth of the matter is that there are many
gods (the powers that be), and for one to claim to be the only
one or even the supreme one is laughable, at least to the rest.
[Nietzsche's best joke is that the rest laughed themselves to
death when one said there is only one, and then, there was only
one.]
Fitting this into our buffyverse, we can imagine The First to
be the Biblical god who wants humanity to think of him (or her
or it) as the first, or even as the only. Buffy, whose position
on the god question is that there is "nothing solid"
represents a threat because she knows that just as she is "the"
slayer, the only slayer, but is yet only "one" of "the
slayers" when seen in a larger historical context, so, The
First (Biblical god) is also only "the" first when seen
in a limited context, and that in the larger picture the world
with regard to gods and such is much more complex, and that even
gods come to be and pass away. Therefore, in the eyes of The First,
Buffy has to go, so it was The First that brought Angel back,
for the purpose of killing Buffy. And therefore it was the "Powers
that Be" or the many other gods who do not claim exclusivity
that caused the miracle that saved Angel and gave him his mission
to be a champion for the good. [Some of this argument sounds a
bit contrived even to my ears as I write it -- but what the heck
-- it's mainly food for thought, so to speak.]
As for the third possibility, that it was Buffy's love that opened
the possibility for Angel's return, a possibility that I indeed
like (given my penchant for the importance and power of romance
and love), then what or who gets credit for the miracle, and why?
Back to my main point though, is it feasible that the big bad
for season seven is "God" himself (seen from a Gnostic
perspective, in which knowledge is the only redemptive power for
humanity, especially the knowledge that love provides)? For ancient
gnosticism (or at least one version) "God" represented
a type of cosmic rift, the creation of evil, and "Buffy"
might be seen as a modern repairing of that rift, one that not
only protects humanity from ignorant obedience, but that restores
the cosmos to a state of health or wholeness.
Of course, for this to actually happen in season seven, I'd suggest
the main event happen during a lucid dream that opens onto metaphysical
realities and alternate dimensions, and so forth. For Buffy to
defeat "God" she will have to appropriate and incorporate
the power of the philosopher with regard to both wisdom and war.
We will need a new uber-buffy, one which incorporates the knowledge
of the whole (Giles), the power of the earth (Willow), the humanity
of life (Xander), and this time (also), the chaos (or chance)
of darkness (Spike). [Might help also come through Anya, Dawn,
and even Angel's crew?]
Oh well! Food for thought! Watching "Amends" and then
thinking of the finale of season seven in the context of the series
as a whole tends to push my inclination to wax poetic to its limit.
So pardon any offense, and we'll have to wait and see what Joss
and Co come up with for us to ponder on and muse about.
What a series. I'll hate to see it go, but also can't wait for
the "series" to become a "work" that has a
completed text that calls for commentary.
Oh, by the way, Happy Holidays (winter solstice if nothing else)!
David Frisby
[> Re: (Just watched Buffy
3.9 "Amends") Thoughts on The First -- jen,
18:38:18 12/23/02 Mon
I am finding that The First fascinates and horrifies me more than
any other uber-threat on Buffy so far. Why is this the case? I
think because some part of me recognizes that The First is less
separate from humanity or from me than anything the Scooby gang
has faced before. In fact, this is what seems to define The First
-- that it cannot be traced to some moment of creation, cannot
be contained in one body or vehicle, and cannot be understood
through some motivation or goal. It is simply Evil as it has existed
for as long as humans can fathom.
I agree with David that the Gnostic vision of 'God' represents
a rift in creation and that The First exists as a result of that
rift. However, I think the splintering that occured was not a
separation of good from evil, or God from Devil. Instead, the
catastrophic rifting occurred between ourselves as humans and
'God.' As soon as humans began to see ourselves as separate from
all of creation, evil as well as good became separate from us
and from each other.
So, perhaps the only way for the Scoobies to combat The First
is for each of them to come to terms with evil as it exists in
each of their own personas. Once they reclaim their full selves
-- the good and the bad -- it seems The First will lose its ability
to deceive them.
[> [> Re: Your Reading
of the "Cosmic Rift" -- David Frisby, 07:14:57
12/24/02 Tue
Very interesting reading of the cosmic rift, Jen: the separation
of humanity from the whole, of good from evil, and of the former
two from the latter two. It leaves something like a world in which
god and the devil battle for the worship of humans. That's the
"rift" all right -- we're the center of everything,
the ultimate prize, and the whole is a cosmic battle of good versus
evil. Only a day of judgment, an end to time, a final battle to
the war, can end such a scenario. BUT, we know this is a sham,
a myth (in the pejorative sense), an unhealthy worldview, and
that ON THE CONTRARY we humans are NOT separate from the rest
of life on earth, that good and evil are not totally separate
from each other (but to some degree define each other and need
each other -- see _Sidhartha_ by Hesse), and that good and evil
are not separate from us, but are created by us in an act of power
(perhaps one of our highest expressions of power) that enables
us to grasp the immensity of the whole and provide meaning to
it and purpose. But there are other "moralities in general"
that humans can create and follow, moralities that do not posit
and reify some ultimate good deity or god opposed to some ultimate
evil demon or devil. These other moralities do not condemn the
earth (our home) as cursed, and do not think of life as a sort
of punishment (or deserved suffering), but on the contrary, integrate
humanity into the rest of life on earth, and fashion codes of
action (or "tablets of the good") that posit "health"
as the good, and that teach us to love life. That's given. They
exist. But the rift is there also, the unhealthy "moralities"
(that do not fear the destruction of life on earth because of
an imagined eternal life in heaven) also exist. Maybe the rift
between these two types of moralities is a truer version of the
rift that needs healed.
I also like your proposed beginning for a solution, something
to the effect that each of us needs to affirm and appropriate
and incorporate the darkness in each of our souls -- a necessary
integration that perhaps will even transform that very darkness
and possibly transfigure the soul itself. When the soul ceases
to be divided against itself it becomes invulnerable to deception
and particularly to self-deception. And as is the case with all
mass movement, it begins with one individual, and then passes
like a virus (or better a meme) to others until all are exposed,
and (assuming they survive), made the stronger for it. Only then
might we say humanity as a whole transcended itself by overcoming
its morality in favor of a better more healthy morality (what
is called a transvaluation of values in some circles). A fitting
image of this process comes to mind: the end of Excorcist II,
where Linda Blair causes the insanity to cease simply by spinning
in the opposite direction, an action that catches on and spreads
and heals the madness. The image also shows the power of "meme"
with regard to human culture, how one idea or thought or ideal
or even musical expression can effect tremendous change (consider
the power of the slogan "liberty equality fraternity").
Buffy rallied the scoobies to war with the first stating only
"they" were stronger than it, that "they"
were the winning factor, but applying your notion Jen, we can
see that "they" will each need to fight the "battle
within" and emerge victorious there first, if they are to
then become a team (a super-buffy of sorts) able to bring the
danger The First poses to humanity to an end.
David Frisby
[> Re: (Just watched Buffy
3.9 "Amends") Thoughts on The First -- Darby, 19:51:50
12/23/02 Mon
You gotta figure that the ME crew had a good long look at Amends
before reviving the First. Some stuff has changed, maybe, from
that first (heh) incarnation...
The First predates Man or Demon (paraphrasing here). How does
Evil exist by itself unless part of beings with moral systems?
What beings? Maybe the gods hypothesis means something here.
The First only manifests through the Bringers. If this hasn't
changed, the minion guys should have been around since before
the season started, but they haven't apparently been in the school
basement. They also used accoutrements in Amends that suspiciously
resembled the totem from this Season's first episode.
The First, as Jenny, definitely touched Angel. Maybe, just as
it can get itself seen and heard, it can make itself felt (forget
First/Warren's assertion to Andrew, it's an unreliable narrator).
If this hasn't changed, we've been applying the "non-corporeal
rule" too broadly. It may explain Dawn's there-and-gone wounds
in the Dawn vs the House scenes.
I'm still thinking that Buffy's dreams come from a different source,
maybe a balancing aspect to the First, maybe the Powers That Be
(still not convinced they exist in sunnydale), maybe even a "Slayer
Sense" in the face of this challenge. It alerted her to Angel's
Amends problems and may be helping her to puzzle out a
solution to the current situation.
[> [> Another odd "Amends"
detail... -- Darby, 21:34:13 12/23/02 Mon
...Not having to do with the First, but rather that Angel was
shown a man who talked about Angelus doing his thing with the
man's whole family, including two kids, which by the man's business
suit must have happened in Season Two. Strange how we were never
told how Angel was artistically murdering children when it should
have motivated Buffy to stake him that much sooner.
[> [> Re: (Nice Insight
on Buffy's Dreams in "Amends") -- David Frisby,
07:45:16 12/24/02 Tue
Yes! I hadn't made that connection, namely that Buffy's dreams
in "Amends" alerted her to Angel's danger, and that
currently also her dreams may prove a clue to the puzzle The First
is presenting. She dreamed of the slayers-in-training being killed
by the harbingers of The First (I assume), and she dreamed of
her mother, twice. Were there others? Might her mother be the
clue? Or the death of her mother? Joyce died of a brain tumor
that seems to have begun when Dawn appeared, or at least we were
led to think that at first. Might Dawn be the clue that unriddles
this puzzle? As the key, Dawn is not as old as Glory, who in turn
is not as old as The First, but if the key opens the doors between
the dimensions might it also be that which integrates back together
what became separate? That which re-binds or re-ties what the
rift broke apart? Is Dawn the key to religion, that which brings
humanity together with a faith and a morality?
Not sure how I wound up there, a bit of a tangent to speak lightly.
But again, with regard to Buffy's dreams as the clue to the puzzle:
in "Amends" she appeared IN Angel's dream with full
awareness that it WAS Angel's dream and further that she was in
fact dreaming (a lucid dream its often called). Has Buffy had
a lucid dream this season? She told her mother she knew her appearance
was but a dream, and that her mother was not her mother, but might
she have been wrong? I take it that remains unresolved at this
time. I'll stop there. I need to look back at her dreams before
speculating further. But I think your notion may prove the clue
to the clue to the puzzle. I anticipate Buffy soon having either
a nightmare or a vision, or perhaps both (nightmares and visions
being dreams of a second order of reality so to speak, at least
according to Nietzsche, and also being very important with regard
to the future). I intuitively feel her dream of her mother is
somehow the clue, but I can't really see it at this time. Nietzsche
says the earth is the mother of humanity, and Willow had a vision
of the earth as both terrifying and yet connecting all things,
---- and Hesiod in his _Theogony_ claims the earth was the first
to emerge from chaos ---- if The First is not the Biblical God
then is it Mother Earth? Or even our lack of connection to life
on earth? "Buffy's dream of her dead mother" is the
clue -- but what does it mean?
David Frisby
[> The First Evil is the
God of Israel? -- Sci, 10:59:00 12/24/02 Tue
Ooooookieday. That's certainly an interesting theory, though not
exactly one I'd buy into (what with me being a liberal Christian
and all that jazz). But, hey, whatever floats yer boat!
One little bit, though: You said, Fitting this into our buffyverse,
we can imagine The First to be the Biblical god who wants humanity
to think of him (or her or it) as the first, or even as the only.
Well, that's all well and good, except that I don't recall the
First Evil ever claiming to be the first or only higher power
in the Buffyverse. In fact, one thing that strikes me as being
interesting is that it's every other character that refers to
it as "the First," while Morphy itself, in the form
of Jenny back in "Amends" very pointedly did not call
itself "the First." Morphy called itself "the First
Evil." Morphy has gone out of its way to make it clear to
the Scoobies that it most definitely is not the first or only
god-like entity to exist in the Buffyverse. (E.g., in "Conversations
with Dead People," the First Evil says to Willow, "Fact
is, the whole 'good and evil, balancing the scales' thing? I'm
over it. I'm done with the mortal coil. But, believe me, I'm going
for a big finish." It goes out of its way to make clear to
Willow that other entities that equal its power -- entities that
represent Good in the same way that Morphy represents the forces
of Evil -- exist.) The First Evil's goal doesn't seem so much
to be to try to get folks to believe that only it exists as it
does to try to overthrow the powers for Good -- to win the war
between Good and Evil -- and to set itself up as the only remaining
power. The First Evil strikes me as being more akin to the Angel
Lucifer than the god YHWH.
Funny sidebar: If'n ya look at the Old Testament, it never once
claims that YHWH is the only god in existence. Rather, the implication
seems to be that many gods exist, and that YHWH is simply one
of these many gods; YHWH, like the other gods, has a people that
belong to him as the Greeks belonged to the Olympians, and has
a specific geographic area where his power is centered, Israel.
In fact, the only real distinction between YHWH and the other
gods is that YHWH is the only god of the Hebrews rather than being
the headhoncho, and YHWH seems to have incorporated what would
have been the powers of multiple gods in polytheistic religions
into one. YHWH simply told His people not to worship the gods
of other peoples -- He certainly didn't set out to replace all
the other pantheons so that all of Humanity would worship only
him. The idea that He was the only god began to evolve in the
Hebrews after the Babylonian Exhile and was soldified by the time
of Christ.
(Though how exactly overthrowing a god that goes about raping
his own subjects a la Zeus is an evil thing, I'm not sure...;)
)
In any event, gods in the Buffyverse seem to be more of the polytheistic
Greek variety and less of the All-Powerful-All-Consuming-There-Is-Simply-One-This-One
Hebrew variety. (E.g., Willow calling upon Osiris to resurrect
Buffy, and then actually managing to hurt/kill Osiris in late
season 6.)
[> [> i've got problems
w/this idea too (surprise!), & stuff to say about it...later
-- anom, 16:47:33 12/24/02 Tue
Sci said some of the things I wanted to, but not all. Right now
I'm just trying to keep the thread out of the archives so it'll
still be there when I have (I hope) time to say them.
[> [> No! Represents
the Exclusivity of Monotheism (Judaism was henotheistic) --
David Frisby (who is NOT anti-semitic), 17:15:58 12/24/02 Tue
No. Not the God of Israel. As you yourself say, the ancient Hebrews
before the Babylonian captivity were henotheists (believing exclusively
in their one god, for themselves, while acknowledging the existence
of others' gods, for others), and not monotheists, especially
not the type of monotheists who claim exclusivity for their god
over and above all others. And even then, I tried to keep very
general by referring only to the Biblical god, referring not in
particular to Judaism (in any of its forms), Christianity (in
any of its forms), or Islam (in any of its forms). The primary
"food for thought" concerned a "gnostic" reading
of The First, which is an old story. The gnostics generally claimed
that what was claimed to be god was the devil and what was claimed
to be the devil was god. Given that Joss Whedon is an avowed atheist,
and that there is "nothing solid" in the buffyverse
with regard to "god's existence" according to Buffy,
and that the "highest" things we have yet encountered
are the "Powers that Be" (which is plural, calling to
mind polytheism more than monotheism), and that the worst thing
within any polytheism is an exclusive monotheism (although other
types of monotheisms are compatible with polytheism, especially
those that themselves exist within a pantheism), I don't think
the proposed food for thought is THAT off the mark. Personally,
I still prefer the earlier formulation of The First as Lucifer/Devil/Satan
(and even then only with a larger mythological framework), but
even that is not incompatible with The First also being understood
as some exclusive monotheism that the ("polytheistic")
Powers that Be find extremely offensive. That is, the Gnostic
and Christian perspectives can be opposed while both yet reveal
true aspects of the thing in question. "The First" is
the devil for those looking from a "semi-Christian"
perspective but is also god for those looking from a "semi-Gnostic"
perspective. The main point is that one people's god is another's
people's devil, and historically, a god often becomes a devil
(witnessed for example by what happened to Pan, and there are
other examples). Finally, returning to the buffyverse, I think
the final identification of The First remains open -- there's
nothing really especially solid there either, yet.
So again, no offense was meant, except to the degree that even
talking about such things as these will surely be offensive to
some. My intention though was surely one intended to initiate
intelligent thoughtful responses and not any racial or ethnic
sentiments.
Maybe you pushed a button? I hope I didn't.
David Frisby
[> [> [> Oh, I wasn't
offended. Bit miffed, but not offended. Don't worry. -- Sci,
18:40:44 12/24/02 Tue
I sorta-kinda got what you were saying the first time around,
and but definitely get it this time. Thanks for clarification.
No offense taken -- I understood that you were saying that strict
monotheism is bad from a polytheistic standpoint; it was the ference
to the "Biblical God" that threw me. It's been forever
since I studied up on the Gnostics -- methinks I should go look
it up now, but as I recall, from religioustolerance.org, didn't
the Gnostics basically believe that the OT God was evil and the
NT God good?
But, in any event, I certainly don't mind that interperetation.
I'm not sure I agree with it, but that is the great thing about
Buffy, isn't it? All these different interperetations are possible.
Gotta love it. (And, while I'm not a believer in the Trinity,
if you bring that concept in, it opens up a WHOLE new can of worms,
eh? "PowerS" that be...)
I still think it's interesting that everyone else calls Morphy
simply as "the First," but Morphy refers to itself as
"the First Evil," though. Myself, I would tend to think
that the First Evil's goal isn't so much to destroy the powers
for Good as it is to, say, convert them into powers for evil,
but that's just one interperetation... (I really wish that Buffyverse
mythology thread had lasted longer. One poster made an interesting
bit about Zorastrotarianism (sp?))
[> [> [> [> Great!
Tis not the season for such inanities -- David Frisby, 05:45:19
12/25/02 Wed
Great! Now is not the time (if there even be such a time) for
such stupidities as anti-semitism. On the Gnostics, one of the
Christian Fathers, St. Augustine no less, speaks fairly extensively
on their heresy, in his _Confessions_ I think. In fact he was
one, and like so many no-longer-smokers (myself included) became
one their most virulent opponents after converting, or was that
Manicheism (a form of Gnosticism?) -- my memory fails times and
I'm not going to look it up this Christmas morning while waiting
for the kids to wake. Anyway though, I think the Gnostics were
as much opposed to the New Testment God as the Old Testament one
(or the one of the Hebrew Bible). The Gnostics postulated "knowledge"
as the redeeming power instead of any god, personal or no. Some
current political philosophers claim the entire modern world is
a revitalized Gnosticism with its emphasis on scientific knowledge.
I think it's the claim of knowledge of any sort (as opposed to
mere belief) that offends modern people the most (unless its scientific
knowledge but then that always comes with a standard of error
at some confidence level, and so is not really knowledge in any
classical sense). Getting to your main point though, I think its
good. The distinction between The First Evil being simply The
First and being Evil is important, with the former being more
objective so to speak and the latter subjective -- because surely
even Evil itself thinks evil preferable to good and therefore
as long as its evil its comes through as good when translated
into its own ethic? Or is this too subjective? On Zoroastrianism,
the fountain from which the west still draws (ethic of good/evil
reified to metaphysical governance of cosmos culminating at end
of time with triumph of good), I once found studying Zurvan very
interesting, the god of good and evil (remember the '60s and Santanas
Abraxas not to mention Hesse's _Demian_), which predates or was
the esoteric core behind the good and evil deities (ahura mazda
and the other one). The prophet's real name was of course Zarathustra
and not Zoroaster (interesting story there), and Nietzsche's _Thus
Spoke Zarathustra_ aims to correct that fundamental error that
began with the ancient Zarathustra. On "The First" Giles
says its more ancient than any gods or demons, and it claims itself
to be that which even the darkness fears. The myth of Lucifer
seems most apt in my mind, yet, but there's still plenty of room
for new readings. My speculation regarding the Gnostic reading
was sparked by what Buffy says to Willow in "Amends"
with regard to Oz: "He needs to know he comes first."
In the buffyverse, there's of course the "first" slayer,
but in the bigger picture (and remember as Giles says, that the
world is much older than people today think), what comes first?
Is the beginning first? Not according to the latest cosmology!
For Aristotle one of the most important things was the determination
of what counted as "first philosophy" (which the tradition
claimed was metaphysics or ontology, but which some current thinkers
claim is ethics -- I'm not sure myself, of course). Conceptually,
which is first: zero or the unit? Crowley (the magician of the
occult) claims the answer to that question colors all else, and
postulates zero as the better choice. I hear the kids -- Enjoy
the snow if you were lucky enough to get some!
David Frisby
(sorry for any typos, no time to proof)
O/T Dub's
Snow Report--YOU DID IT!! -- dub, 14:48:04 12/24/02 Tue
I can't believe this--I'm so excited!! It was not predicted at
all, no one said it would happen, it was supposed to be 6 degrees
C and heavy rain, but
IT'S SNOWING!!!
Big, fat, humungous, fluffy, white snow flakes, against all the
odds--thank you, thank you, thank you... and Merry Christmas!!
;o)
[> Re: Hey,WW, sometimes
the magic works! -- Brian, 15:24:58 12/24/02 Tue
[> Re: O/T Dub's Snow Report--YOU
DID IT!! -- Cactus Watcher, 15:54:16 12/24/02 Tue
Can't help with snow. But, how about a hot cup of cyber cider,
or a cyber slice of the blueberry pie I'm baking tonight. I'm
sure there'll be enough for everyone at ATPo, even you lurkers
over there in the corner. Hope someone remembers the cyber chocolate
this year!
Best wishes and peace to all.
[> [> That's the great
thing about cyberchocolate . . . -- d'Herblay, 15:58:13
12/24/02 Tue
. . . there's always enough for everybody!
[> [> [> And it doesn't
make you fat! -- Rahael, 16:03:05 12/24/02 Tue
I have tons of chocolate by my bedside (work mates aren't all
that imaginative re Christmas presents). Champagne truffles for
anyone? Help yourself. There's actual champagne as well but I'm
saving that for New Year's Day.
[> Thanks dub! -- Caroline,
16:47:50 12/24/02 Tue
I'd just finished making a chocolate marquise (fancy words for
a chocolate mousse) and was moving on the the buche de noel (chocolate
of course!) when I finally looked outside and noticed and inch
of snow outside!!! And it's still coming down! Wish you all could
share in the chocolately goodness with me! Now the desserts are
done and I need to prepare the main course - but just wanted to
thank you for using your influence.
[> Follow-up -- dub,
17:08:16 12/24/02 Tue
The snow this afternoon was brief, but very beautiful, and a miracle
that it happened at all. The Environment Canada forecast for overnight
now says snow (their hindsight is always 20/20), so I might just
get my sappy, sentimental White Christmas after all.
This endeavor has been so successful, I'm feeling like I should
have asked you all to concentrate on Peace on Earth or something...nah,
that'd never work...would it?
dub *basking in the glow of a tree resplendent with 500 mini lights,
leftovers from lunch for 12 happy people, lots of chocky, cyber
and otherwise, a partner who is currently making the second batch
of custard for the trifle, and a fully-thawed 20 lb turkey in
the fridge...as my friend fresne might say, "Life am good!"*
xoxoxoxo ;o)
[> [> Oh wonderful I
slept through the whole thing....... -- Rufus, 18:02:20
12/24/02 Tue
I love snow and when I finally got up all I saw was rain. Maybe
at some point we will get a bit more of the white stuff.
[> [> Vesele Vanoce!
-- cougar, 20:11:11 12/24/02 Tue
Just went for a walk and there is a balmy wind here in Victoria,
no snow but lots of Holly growing along the forest paths. Best
wishes to all.
[> [> Snow in Toronto
-- Scroll, 12:27:34 12/25/02 Wed
It's been coming down since late last night/early morning and
it's still snowing now. We've got quite a few inches and the snow
plows are hard at work. It's lovely and I hope it stays for a
few more days, though hopefully no serious accidents occur because
of the snow.
Wishing everybody a Merry Christmas and safe holidays.
Scroll (who's concentrating her mind on Peace on Earth...)
[> [> [> Re: Snow
in Toronto (and further south) -- ponygirl, 17:26:59 12/25/02
Wed
Went to bed last night reading Susan Cooper's The Dark Is Rising,
and woke up this morning to snow snow snow!
Whether you're celebrating or not, hope everyone is having a great
day!
ponygirl (heading for a glass of sherry and a toast -- peace and
good health to all... and yes, to all a good night!)
[> [> [> [> Re:
"Snowbound " in New Hampshire -- Brian, 18:18:51
12/25/02 Wed
"Boys! A path!
No breath our father wasted..."
8 inches on the ground, and 8 more to go
It's a White Christmas after all.
[> [> [> [> snow
south of toronto: a new york tale -- anom, 23:11:32 12/25/02
Wed
Looks like it's stopped now....
When I went out around noon it was raining, really cold but still
regular, liquid rain, the kind where you don't know whether to
wear your gloves 'cause they get soaked through & make yours hands
even colder. A couple of hours later, when I left again to meet
my brother for our 12/25 movie tradition (this year: About Schmidt),
it was...slushing. Somewhere between rain & sleet, it stung my
face but was slush as soon as it hit the ground, before a single
car rolled over it. Yucky.
By the time we walked out of the theater, it was snowing heavily,
in all directions because of the wind. We walked several blocks
looking for a restaurant as the snow accumulated on everything,
including us. It was still fairly wettish...which made it great
for snowballs! And we threw quite a few as we walked, the snow
whirling around us. (So my brother still knows what's important!)
It was a lot lighter when we left the restaurant, our feet still
wet from tromping the snowy sidewalks earlier.
After we parted, I headed for the subway. I thought I'd get to
the 81st St. station by the downtown entrance, but my Metrocard
had no fares left on it & there was no one in the token booth
at that end. Getting a little grumpy [this is the closest I'll
get to answering Sara's 7 Dwarves post!], I went back out into
the snow to head for the station's other entrance, on the other
side of the American Museum of Natural History. As I approached
the front steps of the museum, I saw a strange shape outlined
in diffusely glowing lights. I couldn't make out what it was at
first, but as I got closer, I realized there was a large evergreen
tree clipped in the shape of a dinosaur--something bipedal, w/a
small head--decorated w/lights that glowed through a blanket of
snow! It was so incongruous I laughed out loud, & even louder
when I passed far enough to see the wreath w/a red bow hung from
the, um, claws of the dinosaur-tree. Or is it a tree-dinosaur?
There was another one on the other side of the steps. It was a
sight as weird as some of Calvin's snow-things (to reference yet
another current thread), & it was worth all the aggravation of
walking an extra 4 blocks back & forth on the surface & underground,
& maybe even missing a train, so my only regret was that I hadn't
brought my camera!
The snow was wet enough that it wasn't even too slippery on the
hill down from the subway to my building. It was still pretty
windy, though. I threw a couple more snowballs on the way. Then
I settled in w/a cup of hot chocolate before the heat in the apt.
warmed me up too much, & watched the snow blowing by out the window...mmmmm.
Y'know, we all love this show w/all the magic, but in the real
world, the one we have to live in, it's snow that's magic.
But it looks like it's stopped now... >sigh< ...maybe it's
just the eye of the storm?
[> [> [> [> [>
oh, yeah--& a buffy connection in the movie! -- anom, 20:50:28
12/26/02 Thu
Off topic for the thread, back on topic for the board!
Harry Groener is in About Schmidt! He plays an outgoing
mobile home (camper? I really don't know the distinction) owner
who meets Schmidt (an unusually subdued Jack Nicholson) in a trailer
park, or maybe it's a camping area, & invites him to dinner w/him
& his wife. It's not as fun a part as the Mayor, but Groener is
as good as we remember him from BtVS.
[> Oh no Dub! We got some
of your order! -- Sara, just in from opening up the driveway,
17:50:39 12/25/02 Wed
Somehow, you've only had a partial delivery on your order, and
by accident they delivered 1 foot of your snow here
in NY. Please come and pick it up as soon as possible! Our December
requisition was filled last week.
[> [> Ah...so THAT's
where it went! -- dub, 20:22:23 12/25/02 Wed
Can you send it UPS?
;o)
[> [> [> Re: Ah...so
THAT's where it went! -- Sara, 07:33:55 12/26/02 Thu
Snow emergency in Schenectady so I got a day off!!!! Which
means I think I'm going to keep it. Sorry, dub, you can't trust
anyone!
- Sara, not going to work until after New Years!!!! Yea!!!
[> [> [> [> Re:
Hey, Sara, near my old stomping ground (Troy) -- Brian, 08:17:16
12/26/02 Thu
I hear that Albany got 21 inches. Our final total for NH was 13
1/2 inches on the level ground. aHOwever, lots of drifts from
the wind. My nephew and I spent the morning digging out the cars,
and snow blowing the driveway. Snow here is dry and powdery, not
at all good for snowballs, but easy to shovel.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Hey, Sara, near my old stomping ground (Troy) -- aliera,
14:19:46 12/26/02 Thu
YES we did at least here in Cohoes! Although after the plows came
through it was more like five feet - at least on my car...it was
just a slightly larger hump in the snow bank! And if you lived
in Troy you probably remember the joys of snow in the city...Oh
well, shouldn't complain seems to me I was wishing for snow just
last week and what do we know about Wishes here on ATPO?
--aliera, resolving to wish more carefully in 2003
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Hey, Sara, near my old stomping ground (Troy)
-- Isabel, 07:45:48 12/27/02 Fri
We got 27 inches in Ravena. And I'm about 40 minutes South of
you guys! That's not fair.
And I didn't get the day off either. It took me 2 frikkin' hours
to dig out the car, after the hike to the store to buy a new shovel.
I've heard that Schenectady hardly plowed the streets at all.
I'm kinda glad I had to move last Summer. I can just imagine Central
Park. (That's where I used to live.) Weeee! Right into the Duck
Pond or Ooops, right into State St.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> What's up with Schenectady? -- Sara, 08:53:04
12/27/02 Fri
You're right about the plowing, I got another call this morning
that the museum was closed again today because you literally can't
get to it. Very odd, but not complaining comfy and cosy, and plowed
here in Fulton County!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: What's up with Schenectady? -- aliera,
09:03:21 12/27/02 Fri
Not just Schenectady...I was very surprised to wake up this AM
to roads just like yesterday AM (6in frozen snow ruts over a lovely
ice foundation)...budget cuts? don't know...fortunately, there's
a thaw coming. ;-)
Do you guys ever think that our area is of proportionally high
representation on the board compared to it's population size?
Something in the air the water? Isabel, sorry to hear about your
troubles yesterday; I was out about around noon and a lot of places
were still pretty scary. Did you all come to any further thoughts
about the con in June? It's out of my price range but I was wondering
if you were planning on going?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: What's up with Schenectady?
-- Isabel,
00:45:20 12/28/02 Sat
Maybe the water makes us chatty. Yesterday was an adventure and
I needed the exercise anyway. How often do we get to reset snowfall
records that have stood since 1785? (At least that's what the
paper said.)
I'm not sure about the Con. On the one hand, I'd LOVE to go. The
cost is on the other hand. I'll think about it a little more and
hope they don't sell all the tickets by New Year's.
[> COOL -- Tchaikovsky,
10:14:08 12/26/02 Thu
OK, I don't write over-enthusiastic slang in capital letters,
and I know it degrades this board and all, but I'm so pleased
for you. No snow here in the UK- it feels like spring, it's so
unseasonably mild. Never mind. Really hope you enjoyed it, and
everyone else who has had the white stuff.
TCH
Life is a
Mystery / - Thoughts on *Bring on the Night* ( Part I ) ... (
Spoilers 7.10 ) -- OnM, 19:16:43 12/24/02 Tue
*******
It's a loop. It's like the mummy hand. I'm doomed to replace these
windows for all eternity.
............ A. L. Harris
*******
You have to take a number of things on faith when you are involved
in a fantasy reality such as the Buffyverse--
bringing logic and reason into the mix can have devastating consequences
on the casual depiction of adventure.
One of the small things that I have come to admire about Jossís
other recent creation, Firefly, is that not
once (to date) have I seen anything make a sound when it is
out there in the vacuum of space. After untold years of
stupid swooshing and booming and crashing sounds taking place
where there ainít no atmosphere to carry them, itís
nice to see some wee smidgen of Kubrickian attention to details.
I wonít even dare go into the reasons why the Trek
technology of the 24th century seems to have seriously lapsed
in the area of the art of making fuses and/or circuit
breakers.
Kirk: Mr Scott! Warp speed now!!
Scotty: Aye, Captain!
Scotty flips a little chromium switch on his engine control console.
All the lights on the ship instantly go out.
Kirk: Scotty! What the hellís going on??
Scotty: Iím a-sorry, Capín. Me circuit
breakers couldní take thí strain!
So, OK, some sparks and non-Hooverific vacuum-related whooshing
noises may have their place in our fiction once in
a while. As does your basic gratuituous violence and general knuckleheadedness,
so long as the story keeps on getting
interesting. Because of the fact that this was a pretty darn good
episode overall, I can let it slide as to the following odd
items:
Item 1. Why doesnít Xander put Lexan windows in
Buffyís house? Wouldnít it be worth the one-time
extra
expense just to piss off the monsters who keep crashing through
them time after time after time?
Buffy: Because... I believe in you, Spike.
Spike: (speechless): Buffy, I...
(Sudden, we hear very loud, crunching THUMPS!!! at the
doors and windows of the Summersí home, as
Harbingers of the First Evil crash headlong into 3/4î polycarbonate-glazed
hardened-steel frames and rebound
harmlessly onto the ground outside. Multiple sounds of guttural
demonic owwwww! ës are soon heard filtering
softly through the walls of the basement.).
Buffy: (realizing what has just happened): Damn, Xander,
you are Da Man!
Spike: Buffy! What the hellís going on??
Buffy: Spike, you ever see that Canadian short film, Godzilla
vs. Bambi?
Item 2. Vampires donít have to breathe. Granted,
Spike is a smoker and seems otherwise fond of respiration,
but if I were getting my head dunked forcibly under water, I think
Iíd hold my... well, I wouldnít breathe, is what
I
wouldnít do.
FE/Drusilla: Awright, letís play a little game.
We did cut the Spike, and then kick the Spike, now letís
play
ëdrown the Spikeí. Would you like that, dearie?
Spike: Are you daft? Iím a vampire, I donít
need to breathe. How the hell are you going to drown me?
FE/D: (smiling wickedly): Youuulllllll see. Good for a
giggle. And a wriggle. (smiles more wickedly, slides her
skirt partway up her thighs for no apparent reason).
Spike: (looking at the water, suddenly panicking): Wait...
is that holy water??
FE/D: (looking at the Uber-vamp, suddenly crestfallen):
Oh dear... why didnít we think of that, now?
Ohhhhhh....... thatís right. Iím rather insane,
and youíre a vicious idiot. (The Uber-vamp grins and nods).
Spike: Bugger. Some root of all evil you are. Been lettiní
that Glory ëho run around loose in what passes for
your mind, eh? Were you there when Buffy kicked her skanky lopsided
ass? Now that was something to see.
(suddenly pensive) Wonder if she believed in me then? I bet she
did! Mustíve been why I cried when she snuffed it, odd
for an evil thing, you know.
FE/D: (face tightening with rage) Stop it! Stop saying
that bitchís NAME! I hate her!
Spike: ëCourse you do, Fee... To bad she isnít
bi, she might make you good too. Now wouldní that be a
sight...
FE/D: SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!! SHUT UP!!!! Ubee... dunk ëim
already! And pee in the water first!
Ubee: Grr. Argh. He-he...
Spike: Get bent, luv. (...blub, glurk...)
Item 3. Dawnís hair style changes between the time
she and Anya are roughing up Andrew and when they go
to the high school to see the evil seal. Now, I have really been
digging the little costuming/ makup/ Dushku body
language riffs theyíve been laying on Tractenberg (or she
on us) over the course of this current season and part of the
last that support my Wacky Theory (TM) that Dawnís DNA
is half Faith and half Buffy, and we got to see another one
of those in this ep.
But, could we have a little continuity, please? If the one scene
directly chronologically follows the previous scene, then
why not have her in that hairstyle when sheís slapping
Andrew around? Wouldnít that also have made more sense,
Faith/Dawn enjoying a little happy sadism with the hot water and
itchy ropes and all?
Anya: Oh, by the way, nice do, Dawnie.
Dawn: (beaming): You really like it? I was at the salon
earlier this afternoon, and there was this special on
ëPushy Queen of Slut Towní stylings. I know it was
naughty, but I just couldnít resist for some strange reason.
It was
like I just wanted, took, had, you know?
Anya: I understand completely, dear. A woman has every
right to enjoy complete sexual gratification
whenever she pleases. (pauses, looks thoughtful). Iíd recommend
avoiding troll gods, though. They dislike direct
speech from their females. Itís so demeaning.
Dawn: I was afraid Buffy would be mad, but she seems preoccupied.
Anya: Sleep deprivation will do that. How long is it now,
three weeks? Four?
Dawn: Not sure. But itíll be Christmas soon, and
it was mid-November not too long ago.
Anya: (nodding): True. But then I donít suck at
math like some people do.
Dawn: Hey! I thought we were bonding here? Whatís
with the math dig?
Anya: (patting Dawn fondly on the head) Oh, not you, dear.
Other people. (pauses). I like the outfit too. Does
wonders for your breasts. And youíre already much taller
than your sister. I hope it doesnít make her insecure or
anything. She seems to have some issues in the sexual area, if
you know what I mean.
Dawn: Yeah. Wonder where she gets that from?
Item 4. Whiny Willow. Again. Jeez ...
Willow: OK, now this handy olí locator spell should
find us the First in no time... Gahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
(Anya is thrown back hard against the nearby wall as a nifty light
show erupts around Willow, who is now doing a
Linda Blair number with the First Evil. Dawn sensibly ducks under
the table as Xander backs away in fear. Buffy, being
the hero and all, holds her ground.)
Xander: HOLY SHIT!!
Dawn: Hey, how come he can say ëshití and I
can only say ësh..í and I usually have to be paralyzed
at the
same time?
Buffy: He canít say ëshití, Dawn. This
is an 8:00 show. Family hour. Theyíll take it out in post.
FE/Willow: (eyes and hair all black now) Eat sh.. and die,
mother......s!!!
Buffy: (dodging FE/Willowís lightning bolts) See?
Technology in service of the greater good. The network
respects family values!
Xander: (grabbing Willowís magical accouterments
and smashing them against the wall): Dammit. Now that
another mess to clean up. Jesus, Willow-- cut that out.
Or Iíll do the yellow crayon speech again.
FE/Willow: Youíll get nothing outa me, Carpenter!!
(Nevertheless, the light show quickly ceases, and the FE vanishes,
leaving Willow sobbing mournfully on the floor.
Buffy and Xander go over to help her up)
Willow: Oh please, donít make me use magic, Buffy.
Please donít make me! Please! Please! Please! Oh, Iím
so evil and out of control and prone to addictive behavior when
Iím magicked up! (sobs even more)
Buffy: Willow, I love you, you know that. But kindly get
over yourself already.
Xander: Yeah Willow. You think The Pretenders were just
leadiní us on with that tune? Or was there a deeper
truth there?
Willow: (stops sobbing, slowly gets up off the floor):
Obscure pop cultural references do not solve the
problem, Xander. I was evil. I could be evil again. This is hard
for me. Itíll take some time to get over it. Hey, Buffy,
it
took you a whole year to get out of your funk!
Buffy: And youíve died how many times so
far? And been pulled out of heaven when? And watched
yourself get violently drawn and quartered by a demon biker gang?
And sent your lover to hell? And watched your
mother die? And...
Willow: Alright, alright, youíre way ahead with
the reasons to be cranky, I get it. I get it.
Anya: (limping, and holding her back where it was slammed
against the wall): Speaking of words that
shouldnít be spoken in polite company...
Dawn: For sure. Well, enough of bad language.. how about
a nice bit of the old ultra-violence instead?
Buffy: (shocked): Oh my god... the monks... they... YOUíRE
HALF FAITH!!!!!
Item 5. There is no 5. Other than the above minor quibbles,
I really liked this ep.
*******
Everyone must stand alone / I hear you call my name / And it feels
like home
............ M. L. V. Ciccone
*******
There is no doubt, this was a very disturbing episode in many
ways. On the face of things, it may not have seemed as if
the seasonal plot was advanced very much, but advancing the plot
wasnít really the point here, in my interpretation.
The point was to confuse the hell out of the viewers as to just
what the plot really is, and in that regard, Bring on
the Night was a smashing success.
Every year, ME plants a number of ongoing clues and little foreshadowing
bits that allow the astute viewer to gain
some predictive ability as to the direction things will
be traveling in. Not so this year-- quantity-wise, there have
been more clues than I can ever recall seeing, but I have only
conjectures (and poorly supported ones at that) as to just
what is real and what are tricks being played by the First Evil.
We even get a metanarrative delivered by Principal
Wood that ëhe likes mysteriesí as opposed to ëevil
moviesí, rubbing the whole collective quandary in our faces.
This scene, in fact, is as good as any place to start. Woodís
true motivations and/or allegiances remain unknown-- is he
a Watcher sent to look after Buffy? If he is, did the Council
send him, or did Giles? Or is he an ëinnocent bystanderí
that the FE may somehow be manipulating? Naturally, he might even
be evil, although Iím still betting it isnít that
simple. The only possibly ëevilí thing we have seen
him do to date is bury Jonathanís body and apparently tell
no one
else about it. But is that ëevilí? If he is a Watcher,
or someone on the side of good, he may simply be doing what is
necessary at the moment, to avoid unwanted attention from the
(human) authorities. I have also suspected all along
that he knows far more about Buffy than he is openly revealing--
the main clue dropped here was way back in
Lessons when he told Buffy that he had ëread up on
her, that her file was very thickí or words to that effect.
Supporting this latter contention is his confession to ëbeing
changed when meeting up with true evilí and the
metanarrative ëmysteryí comment. I think he knows
what Buffy is really up to, and is simply going with the flow
when
she tells him about surfing for ëevil moviesí on the
ënet. While watching Birds of Prey earlier this week,
it
occurred to me that perhaps Wood is the exception to the rule
of the Sunnydale police and their ëdeep stupidityí--
he
might be a detective who became irrevocably unsatisfied with the
lame ëexplanationsí he was always forced to write
up,
and so somehow got himself set up as the SD High principal. This
has a certain logic to it, and also might be a little
homage to the role of the police detective on Birds who
becomes a ëworking associateí of Huntress. (And
which presumably may have existed in the original comics that
the show is based on-- those more familiar with this than
I can fill me in, if you please).
For the moment, then, Iím keeping Wood on the side of Good.
Now Joyce is quite another matter. She appears twice before Buffy
in this ep, and the writers have very carefully
configured her words to be perfectly ambiguous. I can speculate,
but thatís all-- I really have no clue whether
Vision!Joyce is FE/Joyce or RealSpiritJoyce.
On the FE/Joyce side of the argument, it is clear that despite
her intellectual capacities telling Buffy that this isnít
her
mother, she seems powerless to resist the image. By the time of
the second dream meetup, Buffy even calls the vision
ëMomí, and allows it to touch her. (Nice sneaky implied
trip-up by ME here-- the First canít touch Buffy in literal
physical reality, but this is a dream-- the FE is manipulating
Buffyís sleeping mind directly, not appearing before her
waking, corporeal self. Thus, she can ëtouchí Buffy
and still be the FE.)
If Buffy comes to think that Joyce is really her motherís
spirit trying to help her (which of course is an event within
the
realm of possibility in the Buffyverse), then the FE could bring
about a devastating advantage over her enemy.
Remember that as far as we know, Dawn may or may not have told
Buffy of her own vision. We do know that so far,
Buffy has not told anyone else about seeing Joyce in her dreams.
Joyceís words could also be the truth, just cryptically
delivered the way the forces of Good always seem to do.
Certainly the part about evil being a part of us, and existing
everywhere, is in keeping with the known makeup of both
the Buffyverse and our own Realverse. Vision!Joyce could be trying
to communicate to her daughter that her plan to
destroy the First is hopeless because it is in fact just that--
and that Buffy has to come to understand that the FE can be
defeated in spirit, but not destroyed in physical reality. If
this is the case, then this supports my current thinking in that
Buffy is wrong to ëgo to warí against the FE as she
suggests in her admittedly rousing speech at the showís
end. (More
on this later on).
Giles. Ahh, Giles. Is he dead? Alive? A spirit? A manifestation?
The more that I examine the clues that have been
carefully placed before us, the less I know. Yes, they were very
careful not to show him touching any of the people he
interacted with, suggesting he is the FE itself, but I think this
is a red herring of a very low level-- we should know very
well that the FE would never be able to count on never being touched,
and therefore giving the game away. It just
couldnít be that stupid, and I am assuming as much.
So, what are the possibilities? Here are a few, detailed in
most likely-to-least likely order:
1. Giles is really Giles. He isnít under the influence
of anything except maybe shock and fear. He may be an
ex-Watcher, but the sudden death of his many collegues could have
enabled the same post-traumatic stress syndrome
of a soldier who is the only survivor of a horrific battle. Combined
with his current knowledge that there is no known
way to destroy the First Evil, he is just psychologically treading
water and fervently hoping for a miracle, that miracle
being the one person who has risen to the challenge time and again,
and seemingly made the impossible possible. This
becomes a sort of ëthere are no atheists in foxholesí
maneuver/internal conflict in Gilesí psyche.
2. Giles is a manifestation in the same way that the three dead
people were in Lessons. Supporting clue from
same: ëThere is always a talismaní. We may have assumed
that such a manifestation must be of someone who is dead,
but that doesnít necessarily have to be the case. Perhaps
the FE can only call the dead to its aid in this manner, but the
coven Giles was working with in England may be able to call forth
a remote manifestation of a living person. The
proto-Slayers could be carrying the talisman, or even be the talisman,
for all we know. The Watcherís books could be
the talisman, and thatís the real reason they were
presented to Buffy and the Scoobies. This could provide a
reason why Giles seems to be a bit ëoffí to us-- his
original body is back in England, perhaps comatose or somesuch.
3. Mentioned this in an earlier post last week, but there is the
possibility of a ëGilesbotí. If so, then the FE is
probably
behind it, no doubt working off Warrenís knowledge with
minions to do the actual construction. Definitely would
explain the ëoffí nature.
4. Giles is a physical agent of the FE, for example a demon of
some kind, with a ëglamorí spell. If Jonathan can
turn
into the image of a demon, certainly a demon could turn into the
image of Giles. This would explain pretty much
everything. The demon might touch a human if it had to, but likely
wouldnít do so unless necessary. The ubervamp
may have retreated from Gilesí as Buffy climbed out of
the hole in the ground because it recognized an ëassociateí
in
the FEís employ.
5. One of the advantages in taking a long time to write these
things is that you can steal other analystís ideas! ;-)
Just
today, I got to read jenoffís take on the ep, and he suspects
that Giles may have been killed and done a ëGaldalfí
rebirthing trip as a result-- and this is why Ubee retreated.
Not sure that I buy this idea, but it is an intriguing thought.
jenoff also makes some interesting comparisons to other Scoobies
and LotR characters. Naturally, there are also
Andrewís Star Wars refs to persons dying and returning
as a more powerful being.
Regardless of which of these suppositions might be true, or for
that matter any other scenario we can conjure up, there
is no doubt that if ?Giles? is working for the FE, Buffy is in
serious trouble for however long she is unaware of this--
there couldnít possible be a better choice for a mole,
even Xander. Buffy looks to Giles for guidance, trusts his
knowledge, still sees him as a parent figure. Buffy may not be
entirely trusting of Spirit!Joyce, but that is because she
knows that the FE can impersonate dead people. She has no way
of knowing that Giles may in fact be dead, so the full
benefit of the doubt would always be given, no matter how odd
Giles might behave at times.
Now we come to the proto-Slayers, or ëSITîs as most
are calling them. One of the great big honkiní misleads
that I
picked up upon right from the very first viewing turned out to
be one that I have seen very few other fans mention, so
now I have to wonder if Iím missing something here. So,
Iíd much appreciate some direct feedback or the pointing
out
of existing threads where someone answers this question:
Why does Giles state that the FEís plan is to destroy not
only the current Slayer, but the chance of any future Slayers
from appearing, when as far as I can tell, this is an impossibility?
Buffy completely accepts this line of reasoning, even details
it (paraphrasing) -- ìAll the Slayers-in-Training killed,
then
Faith, and finally me. End of the line, the balance is forever
destroyedî
The one thing we have always been led to implicitly understand
is that ëOne Slayer dies, Another is Borní.
This
is a metaphysical act. It seems ludicrous to me that the
FE, even with all its powers, could manage to find and
wipe out every single proto-Slayer (one reason I prefer
that term, BTW!) on Earth. How, by wiping out every
single female human on the planet? Donít think so! I think
that the Council (which is a very humble, self-effacing
organization, as we all know) may consider it capable of locating
all of the protoís in the world, but I personally doubt
it. In fact, didnít they have trouble locating Buffy? Wasnít
she actually called before Merrick located her?
So my take here is that this is the big lie that the FE wants
perpetuated. If ?Giles? is really Giles, then heís
bought it hook, line and sinker. If ?Giles? is an FE agent, then
he initiates the big lie.
Some related interesting notes.
Is this the very first time since their crossover-y meetup on
A:tS that Buffy has ever said the name ëFaithí? I
think it is.
And, we have Dawn looking Faith-like (and even acting Faith-like)
at times in this same ep. Foreshadowing much? Will
Faith be the one who cracks the deception, after weeks of eps
go by with General!Buffy staging battles with her ëarmyí
against the First, and failing in each and every one of them?
Will the knowledge that the FE cannot
eliminate the Slayer line be the key to Buffy defeating it?
Also, we know that Buffy cannot call forth another Slayer
(because, like, Joss has spoken, right?), but Faith
can. But we have seen nothing to date that suggests that Buffy
knows this, and in fact her statement ì... then Faith,
then meî would seem to confirm her not knowing.
Alas, even this take isnít a given. Check the wording carefully,
and you will realize that Buffy could know that
she canít call another Slayer. If Faith is killed, then
there is only one Slayer left (according to the ëbig lieí
theory).
Technically, if all the SITís are dead, the line ends when
Faith dies (no SITís, no successor) and Buffy dies (since
Buffy cannot call another Slayer).
The more I get into all this, the more admiration I gain for what
a truly layered mystery ME has writ this season,
drawing as it does on all of the past history of the show and
then upsetting it. It really is stunning, and as
LurkerBoy/Calvin pointed out so wonderfully in his recent post
on ëthe unreliable narratorí, we are finding that
the
entire nature of the current Buffyverse is being called into question.
~ ~ ~ ( Continued in Part II ) ~ ~ ~
[> Part II, hopefully, tomorrow
or Thursday. Also contains the WK future casting spoiler...
-- OnM, 19:44:30 12/24/02 Tue
... that probably every Buffy viewer knows by now, but
just in case, thar 'tis!
*******
Wherever you and yours may be / Remember to feed and water your
tree!
Holiday Wishes of the Very Best Variety to Ya'all !
Peace.
*
**
***
****
*****
*******
*
*
[> A Divine image --
Rahael, 19:58:01 12/24/02 Tue
I really like this point
Buffy completely accepts this line of reasoning, even details
it (paraphrasing) -- ìAll the Slayers-in-Training killed,
then
Faith, and finally me. End of the line, the balance is forever
destroyedî
The one thing we have always been led to implicitly understand
is that ëOne Slayer dies, Another is Borní. This
is a metaphysical act. It seems ludicrous to me that the FE, even
with all its powers, could manage to find and
wipe out every single proto-Slayer (one reason I prefer that term,
BTW!) on Earth. How, by wiping out every
single female human on the planet? Donít think so! I think
that the Council (which is a very humble, self-effacing
organization, as we all know) may consider it capable of locating
all of the protoís in the world, but I personally doubt
it. In fact, didnít they have trouble locating Buffy? Wasnít
she actually called before Merrick located her?
So my take here is that this is the big lie that the FE wants
perpetuated. If ?Giles? is really Giles, then heís
bought it hook, line and sinker. If ?Giles? is an FE agent, then
he initiates the big lie.
I'm remembering the lines 'You can never know the source of us'
and the comments that you cannot destroy evil. Well, isn't the
same true of good? You can never destroy good either. The FE is
always bound to lose, because it wants to destroy balance. The
only way it can destroy balance is to destroy every human being
(metaphorically signified by it destroying every potential slayer).
And then it would no longer have any way of ruling a human heart.
As many people have pointed out, good dwells in the human heart,
just as evil does. We have the potential for this.
And Evil's dependence on humanity is emphasised by its non corporeality.
It has to work on human emotions, human potentials for good even
(love, loyalty, etc) to try to get them to do its work. It has
to manipulate. I am of course, reminded of a poem!
A Divine Image
Cruelty has a Human Heart
And Jealousy a Human Face
Terror, the Human Form Divine
And Secrecy, the Human Dress
The Human Dress, is forged Iron
The Human Form, a fiery Forge.
The Human Face, a Furnace seal'd
The Human Heart, its hungry Gorge.
Blake
[> [> Spoilers for BoTN
in my above post! -- Rahael, 19:59:28 12/24/02 Tue
[> Has Joss reached the
Carter Threshold of Buffy mythology? -- cjl, 21:30:03 12/24/02
Tue
(Carter Threshold: n. When the accumulated details of a fantasy/science
fiction series' mythology exceeds the ability of the series creator
to resolve the storyline in a way that's consistent with all of
the facts presented. Named after Chris Carter, creator of the
X-Files.)
Reading your post, OnM, I'm growing increasingly concerned that
BtVS has hit the Carter Threshold and Joss has tied himself into
a Gordian Knot with this S7 plotline. He'll slice through it in
the last four episodes, but in a way that'll leave us all scratching
our heads and saying: "OK, I guess that makes sense, but
when you look at S7 as a whole..."
I realize I'm doing the unthinkable--underestimating Joss--but
I thought Chris Carter was a minor deity during the first four
years of the X-Files, and look where that got me.
[> [> You could be right,
though I don't think so. -- Robert, 13:28:53 12/25/02 Wed
>>> Carter Threshold: n. When the accumulated details
of a fantasy/science fiction series' mythology exceeds the ability
of the series creator to resolve the storyline in a way that's
consistent with all of the facts presented. Named after Chris
Carter, creator of the X-Files.
I haven't seen this before. Did you make this one up, or has it
been circulating around for a while?
>>> I realize I'm doing the unthinkable--underestimating
Joss--but I thought Chris Carter was a minor deity during the
first four years of the X-Files, ...
I think that you are underestimating Joss Whedon. Even so, don't
diminish Chris Carter's accomplishments. First, he successfully
ran a sci-fi show on FOX network, and we know about the minor
miracle which that entails. Second, he created a new subgenre
for sci-fi on television (ie. the overshadowing, overpowering
and lingering conspiracy). Even more, Carter, and staff, created
some excellent episodes of X-Files. I was watching a couple
yesterday. The good episodes were great. The humorous episodes
could be hilarious, the gruesome episodes could be absolutely
grotesque, and the emotional episodes made my heart sing.
Carter's weakness was in the handling the extended story arc.
I doubt that Carter created a detailed story arc to start with.
I don't mean to say that he didn't have some idea where he was
heading, but the episodes were always more important to Carter
than the story arc. If I remember correctly, only about 1 in 3
episodes actually moved the story arc. The rest were what we Buffy
fans would call filler episodes, though some of these fillers
were truly great episodes. When Carter did move the story arc,
he moved it so slowly that the viewing audience (the important
part being me) began to lose attention to detail and interest
in the story.
Chris Carter may not be a diety (minor or otherwise), but he is
special. The Carter Threshold definitely plays against
his weakness, and I believe it does him a large disservice. Compare
X-Files to Aaron Spelling's Charmed, or compare
X-Files to Smallville. Both these shows pretend
to have an extended story arc, but the extended stories merely
serve at the convenience of the individual episodes.
People such as Joss Whedon and J. Michael Straczynski understand
how to construct an extended story. Straczynski's story arc extended
over 5 years (approximately 110 episodes), plus some made-for-tv
movies. Whedon's story arcs extended only over a season, though
as has been published a number of times, he has a clear direction
mapped out 2 or 3 seasons in advance.
... and look where that got me.
I blame at least part of the ignoble conclusion of X-Files
on FOX network. I believe that Carter had originally intended
for the series to wrap up much sooner, and that FOX pressured
or demanded that Carter keep pumping out the goods. The last two
season seemed to run strictly on fumes, and when Duchovny left
the show, the situation became completely ridiculous. This could
happen to BtVS too if Geller actually does leave. On the other
hand, I hold Whedon to a higher standard and I think he could
pull it off.
So, has BtVS or will BtVS cross this Carter Threshold?
I say no, but this is strictly an individual determination. I've
also been reading for the past four years how BtVS has jumped
the shark (also an individual determination). If the show
had truly jumped the shark, I don't believe we would be
here discussing it, but some people believe it has. Regardless,
I do believe that Whedon and crew have a better handle on the
continuity details of BtVS than Carter did with X-Files,
and that they will not drown in them.
What about the contradictions between AtS and BtVS? We've begun
to hear some complaints about this. The two shows treat the mythology
different. The role of demons and vampires are different, more
ambiguous in AtS than BtVS. Also, the timelines of the shows don't
appear to track (ie. no one in Sunnydale has heard about the rain
of fire). I believe that Whedon cleaved AtS from BtVS back when
BtVS jumped over to UPN, and now treats them as separate shows
with different mythologies and settings. If we can accept this,
then no current or future event on AtS should impact BtVS.
[> [> [> I do think...
(unspoiled spec) -- KdS, 06:18:21 12/26/02 Thu
If Buffy wakes up in the asylum at the end of the series (as some
have been suggesting here) it'll create an insuperable suspension-of-disbelief
problem for AtS.
[> [> [> [> Re:
I do think... (unspoiled spec) -- Robert, 22:10:32 12/26/02
Thu
>>> If Buffy wakes up in the asylum at the end of
the series ...
An unlikely scenario, I believe!
By the way, thanks for showing me a new word, insuperable.
I will add it to my active vocabulary.
[> [> [> "Carter
Threshold" (TM)--owned by cjl Enterprises, Brooklyn, New
York -- cjl, 07:28:45 12/26/02 Thu
Every time somebody on the board uses the phrase, you owe me three
cents. I'll post the post office box for payments later.
[> [> [> [> I guess
I owe you 9 cents, so ... -- Robert, 22:06:42 12/26/02
Thu
how are you planning to collect? Oregon is a long way away from
New York.
[> [> [> The problem
with your BtVS/AtS being totally separate now is... (well-known
casting spoiler) -- Rob, 10:00:33 12/26/02 Thu
...Faith. She will be on both shows this year, and presumably
will go directly from LA to Sunnydale. I doubt very much that
nothing she does in LA will have any impact on what happens in
Sunnydale. That would be almost impossible, and make her return
kind of pointless. The fact that she's on both shows says to me
that she is going to be the element that ultimately ties the two
Apocalypses together.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re:
The problem with your BtVS/AtS being totally separate now is...
(well-known casting spoiler) -- Robert, 20:35:43 12/26/02
Thu
>>> She will be on both shows this year, and presumably
will go directly from LA to Sunnydale.
Possibly, but it hasn't happened yet and I will cross that bridge
when we get to it, and not a moment before.
[> [> [> [> [>
Touche! ;o) -- Rob, 22:42:30 12/26/02 Thu
[> Waging War..... --
Rufus, 22:33:34 12/24/02 Tue
Before people will engage in war they have to believe that there
is something that they have to fight for because they feel there
is no other way. In the Buffyverse, it had been the Council of
Watchers who had been the Generals who called the shots, made
the pretty speeches and used the Slayer as an instrument to fight
"their" war. Now the Council is gone, blown up.....and
if these guys are masters of their own souls it's now in a hell
or heavenly dimension. That leaves Buffy. In Bring on the Night,
Buffy is the one who calls all to arms and tells them it's time
to get out of the holding pattern and fight for what they feel
has value. I was reminded of the movie Gettysberg where Jeff Daniels
plays an officer who has the task of inspiring men to fight on
one of the most bloodiest battlefields ever.
Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain: This is a different
kind of army. If you look at history you'll see men fight for
pay, or women, or some other kind of loot. They fight for land,
or because a king makes them, or just because they like killing.
But we're here for something new. This hasn't happened much in
the history of the world. We are an army out to set other men
free. America should be free ground, from here to the Pacific
Ocean. No man has to bow, no man born to royalty. Here we judge
you by what you do, not by who your father was. Here you can be
something. Here you can build a home. But it's not the land.
There's always more land. It's the idea that we all have value,
you and me. What we're fighting for, in the end, is each other.
Sorry. Didn't mean to preach. 1993 movie Gettysberg
The Council Building exploded after Travers attempted to inspire
the Watchers to fight a war he only saw as a conflict between
Watchers and The First Evil. The Buffyverse began because the
Old Ones lost their purchase over the reality that is now that
of humanity. The Council of Watchers may at one time been in touch
with the world around them but since had built up layers of bureaucracy
that caused them to see value in only themselves. Travers could
remember lines from the Churchill speech but it is now Buffy who
has stepped onto the battlefield because she values the world,
enough that she has died once for it.
Buffy: YOU'RE RIGHT. WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIGHT IT. WE DON'T
KNOW
WHEN IT'LL COME. WE CAN'T RUN, CAN'T HIDE, CAN'T PRETEND IT'S
NOT THE END, 'CAUSE IT IS. SOMETHING'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE TO TRY
AND DESTROY THE WORLD. WE'VE BEATEN THEM BACK, BUT WE'RE NOT DEALING
WITH THEM ANYMORE.
WE'RE DEALING WITH THE REASON THEY EXIST. EVIL. THE STRONGEST..........
THE FIRST.
Giles: BUFFY, I KNOW...I--I KNOW YOU'RE--YOU'RE TIRED.
Buffy: I'M BEYOND TIRED. I'M BEYOND SCARED.I'M STANDING ON THE
MOUTH OF HELL, AND IT IS GOING TO SWALLOW ME WHOLE. AND IT'LL
CHOKE ON ME.
WE'RE NOT READY? THEY'RE NOT READY. THEY THINK WE'RE GONNA WAIT
FOR
THE END TO COME, LIKE WE ALWAYS DO. I'M DONE WAITING. THEY WANT
AN APOCALYPSE? OH, WE'LL GIVE 'EM ONE. ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO
RUN...
DO IT NOW, 'CAUSE WE JUST BECAME AN ARMY. WE JUST DECLARED WAR.
FROM NOW ON, WE WON'T JUST FACE OUR WORST FEARS. WE WILL SEEK
THEM OUT.
WE WILL FIND THEM AND CUT OUT THEIR HEARTS ONE BY ONE UNTIL THE
FIRST SHOWS ITSELF FOR WHAT IT REALLY IS. AND I'LL KILL IT MYSELF.
THERE IS ONLY ONE THING ON THIS EARTH MORE POWERFUL THAN EVIL,
AND THAT'S US.
ANY QUESTIONS?
Travers was stuck in time where he thought the Institution was
the only thing at stake in the eternal battle between the First
Evil and humanity. Now with the Council out of it, Buffy is the
one who has to find those willing to fight what seems to be a
war that may never be won. It is the words from the movie Gettysberg
that make me think that Buffy is the one that will get the job
done...Here we judge you by what you do, not by who your father
was. Here you can be something. Here you can build a home. But
it's not the land. There's always more land. It's the idea that
we all have value, you and me. What we're fighting for, in the
end, is each other. The difference between Buffy and Travers
is that Travers didn't understand that to fight a war it has to
be one that is fought because people value what and who they are
and feel that if they don't take up arms that will be gone forever.
[> [> Movie quote
-- CW, 06:33:45 12/25/02 Wed
The movie quote is even more apt because it was addressed to men
who felt they'd done enough, who felt they'd seen enough of war
and were ready to give it up and go home. This certainly is a
point in Buffy that all of them might consider giving up and running
away to spend whatever time they had left in peace.
[> [> Re: Waging War.....
-- gds, 09:17:41 12/25/02 Wed
WE WON'T JUST FACE OUR WORST FEARS. WE WILL SEEK THEM OUT.
WE WILL FIND THEM AND CUT OUT THEIR HEARTS ONE BY ONE UNTIL THE
FIRST SHOWS ITSELF FOR WHAT IT REALLY IS.
What struck me about this speech is that it sounds like an INTERNAL
war instead of an EXTERNAL war, and since FE is internal to people
this makes sense. The primary war here is not with stakes and
axes but with the dark side of their natures e.g.:
ï Willow's feeling of inadequacy that caused her to uses
magic in the first place, and now her feeling of inadequacy that
she canít be trusted to use that magic safely
ï Anyaís loss of identity
ï Dawnís search for an identity of her own
The first battle they must fight is within themselves, and then
they can fight the external enemies. This speech has a Star Wars
style message.
[> [> [> Re: Waging
War..... -- flo, 12:39:31 12/25/02 Wed
Fighting TFE is definitely a matter of discovering, claiming,
and somehow transforming the evil within. Take a look at Conversations
With Dead People -- Dawn, Willow, and Buffy each encounter something
that represents their deepest longing or deepest fear: Dawn's
need for a mother and her fear of apparitions, Willow's self-hatred
(the suicide suggestion), and Buffy's fear of commitment and superiority/inferiority
complex. I wonder why Xander wasn't included in this ep?
[> [> [> Yes, Star
Wars and The Killer Angels -- Rufus, 17:12:52 12/25/02
Wed
I think you can see both in Buffy.....the Killer Angels specifically
influenced the style in Firefly. But it's that way of fighting
not just for something like The Watchers Council, but for each
other is definately a theme in The Killer Angels by Michael Shaara.
Buffy made that break from the Council in season five and the
Council was destroyed because they had isolated themselves from
humanity limiting their resources when a true threat to everyone
decided to make itself known. Buffy is fighting for everyone,
to protect the world, not just a building filled with bureaucrats
who had no interest in the world past their own limited self-interest
in their institution. Travers had to take lines from Churchill's
speech, Buffy spoke from the heart...who would you follow?
[> A Slayers Calling - spoilers
thru 7.10 -- Dochawk, 23:06:40 12/24/02 Tue
"Why does Giles state that the FEís plan is to destroy
not only the current Slayer, but the chance of any future Slayers
from appearing, when as far as I can tell, this is an impossibility?
Buffy completely accepts this line of reasoning, even details
it (paraphrasing) -- ìAll the Slayers-in-Training killed,
then
Faith, and finally me. End of the line, the balance is forever
destroyedî
The one thing we have always been led to implicitly understand
is that ëOne Slayer dies, Another is Borní. This
is a metaphysical act. It seems ludicrous to me that the FE, even
with all its powers, could manage to find and
wipe out every single proto-Slayer (one reason I prefer that term,
BTW!) on Earth. How, by wiping out every
single female human on the planet? Donít think so! I think
that the Council (which is a very humble, self-effacing
organization, as we all know) may consider it capable of locating
all of the protoís in the world, but I personally doubt
it. In fact, didnít they have trouble locating Buffy? Wasnít
she actually called before Merrick located her?"
Immediately after the episode, I posited the same question. But
I think Giles (if it is Giles this was an obvious mistake, if
it is the FE a purposeful one) got it wrong. The Harbingers are
trying to kill not all the SITs (though they want to get rid of
those who have some training and are obvious) but they want to
kill all of THE WATCHERS. I agree with you, from what we understand
about the slayer mythology, not all of the Proto-slaeyrs are known,
but all of the watchers are. And what would a slayer be without
her watcher? If you take Joss' original script for the movie (which
is published as the graphic novel "Origins") as canon,
Buffy had no idea she was a slayer until Merrick showed up and
she had already been called for months. What we see in Becoming
I - II supports this notion. From the evidence we know (and that
the real Giles knows) killing all the proto-slayers would be an
act of unbelievable proportion. But, there are a finite number
of Watchers and without them how would a slayer know anything
of what to do. Buffy was a slayer for months but didn't know anything
was different. For this theory to be correct, ME MUST acknowledge
Wesley as a former watcher, even an obtuse reference to his being
attacked would be enough, but somehow this must be considered.
Too many fans know too much of the backstory of Buffy for ME to
ignore this problem.
As for having difficulty with a consistent Slayer/Buffy mythology,
I think Joss will have no difficulty remaining within his own
paramaters. I think the difference between Joss and Chris Carter
is Joss knows where the end goes and has a clear understanding
of his own mythology (I compare Joss to Tolkien in his creation,
there are many continuity errors in LOTR, but the grand mythology
makes sense, BTVS is similar). My own guess why Fray has been
delayed until after this season ends is not production problems,
but the conclusion of Fray may give too many clues as to what
is happening now on Buffy (especailly if this is to be Buffy's
last season).
[> [> Re: A Slayers Calling
- spoilers thru 7.10 -- Robert, 13:56:46 12/25/02 Wed
>>> My own guess why Fray has been delayed until after
this season ends is not production problems, but the conclusion
of Fray may give too many clues as to what is happening now on
Buffy (especailly if this is to be Buffy's last season).
Oh, very good! I had not considered this possibility. If true,
it would certainly ease the pain I have suffered waiting for episode
7.
[> [> Giles' Watcheriness
-- slain, 12:27:43 12/27/02 Fri
Assuming Giles is real (and, having watched the episode last night
with that in mind, I think he's either unreal or a very clever
misdirect), I think it fits with his character that he'd be more
concerned with the Slayers, than the Watchers - his ultimate nightmare,
after all; casting our minds back to David Greenwalt's oft-overlooked
episode 'Nightmares' we see that, even before Giles really got
know Buffy, her life was his ultimate priority. It therefore makes
sense to me that a real Giles would be concerned first with the
proto-Slayers, then with the Watchers. Quentin is probably right
when he says that it's the Watchers Council that the FE are trying
to destroy; I think it shows up the difference between the two
men that Quentin is more concerned with the structure of the council,
and Giles is more concerned with the lives of the prospective
Slayers. Unless of course he's evil.
While I'm here, two more points about Giles. First, and this has
probably already been said, the ubervamb did not recoil from him
- it recoiled from the sun, in an homage to Nosferatu. He just
happened to be there.
Secondly there's another possibility about the nature of the Giles
that I don't think has been considered - that he's alive and well,
but in England, and being astrally-projected by the Coven. Why
he wouldn't tell Buffy about this, of course, would be a mystery.
Now I think we've covered every single possibilty, so when the
next episode comes we'll be able to say we guessed it all along.
[> thoughts on thoughts
(does that make them metathoughts?) -- anom, 23:16:28 12/24/02
Tue
Lotsa grist for the mill here...& then lotsa flour to sift through
for...for...OK, the grinding analogy kinda runs out here. But
it says something about this episode that OnM's careful analysis
of so many aspects leaves so many questions open, as he says himself:
"...quantity-wise, there have been more clues than I can
ever recall seeing, but I have only conjectures (and poorly supported
ones at that) as to just what is real and what are tricks being
played by the First Evil."
So I can only offer a few comments here & there. Wait, that's
what I usually do anyway. OK, here goes.
"Remember that as far as we know, Dawn may or may not have
told Buffy of her own vision. We do know that so far, Buffy has
not told anyone else about seeing Joyce in her dreams."
We've heard Dawn tell what she saw right up to the crucial part.
I think it's pretty clear she's kept "Joyce's" final
comments to herself & hasn't come to a conclusion yet about whether
to believe her. Buffy's "Nothing" when Xander wakes
her up & asks what's going on had me thinking "there she
goes again...she still hasn't learned not to keep stuff to herself."
Hmm...maybe it runs in the family.
"Why does Giles state that the FEís plan is to destroy
not only the current Slayer, but the chance of any future Slayers
from appearing, when as far as I can tell, this is an impossibility?
Buffy completely accepts this line of reasoning, even details
it (paraphrasing) -- 'All the Slayers-in-Training killed, then
Faith, and finally me. End of the line, the balance is forever
destroyed.'î
Agree totally. Even if all the currently living proto-Slayers--whether
they're in training or not--were all killed, there'd be another
one born before long. Or does the Slayer-energy (or whatever
you want to call it) need to have a potential Slayer to jump into?
Would it disappear if there were no one to receive it? There's
been no reference to this on the show, no reason to think it's
so, & no way to know, since the situation has never existed.
"Also, we know that Buffy cannot call forth another
Slayer (because, like, Joss has spoken, right?), but Faith can.
But we have seen nothing to date that suggests that Buffy knows
this, and in fact her statement '... then Faith, then me' would
seem to confirm her not knowing.
Alas, even this take isnít a given. Check the wording carefully,
and you will realize that Buffy could know that she canít
call another Slayer."
Maybe she does; it's a matter of interpretation (like so much
else in this episode). But her exchange w/Giles in Grave supports
the idea that she doesn't know:
[from Psyche's site]
BUFFY: ...I don't understand...why I'm back.
GILES: You have a calling.
BUFFY: But it was my time, Giles. Someone would have taken my
place.
I don't think there's any reason to think she would have found
out differently between then & now.
Can't wait for Part II! But no pressure, OnM....
[> Re: Life is a Mystery
/ - Thoughts on *Bring on the Night* ( Part I ) ... ( Spoilers
7.10 ) -- SIT's the WC and the FE, 06:20:01 12/25/02 Wed
It's established Canon that the Watchers find and train the slayers
before they're called. Even if they miss one, there must be some
kind of database that they used to narrow down who might becom
a slayer, or else they never could have found Buffy after she'd
been called. I can imagine the WC sitting around after the slayer
before Buffy died, waiting for Kendra, Faith or someone else to
be called, and when they weren't, they would have had to go back
over there records for someone they missed, narrowed down the
possibilities and come up with Buffy. There was no other way for
them to find her, since at that point she hadn't used her slayer
powers. They didn't just go up to every teenage girl at random
and ask if she was the Slayer...and in fact, Merrick didn't ask
Buffy, he told her. So the WC was already sure Buffy was the Slayer,
even though they'd managed to miss her when she was young. But
Buffy is the exception to pretty much everything.
There must be a limited number of potential slayer candidates,
given the glimpses we've seen of Slayer training/choosing in WML
and Becoming. Otherwise how could the Watchers ever find any of
them before they were called? They certainly just don't take girls
at random in hopes they'd be called. The most likely explanation
is that all of the candidates are descended from the First Slayer
in one way or another, and the WC has kept meticulous records
of the FS's lineage. Buffy managed to slip through the system
the first time, but on re-examination, they were able to find
her easily.
Actually, if the FE Wasn't able to find all of the potential SIT's
it would more strongly go against the canonical explanations we've
been given so far than if she were.
[> [> Semi-established
mythology ( Spoilers 7.10 and Fray) -- Darby, 06:44:56
12/25/02 Wed
If the Slayers share some familial line, they share it with every
human female on earth (based upon the Slayers we've been shown
on the show and in stories written by ME staffers), so not so
much the narrowing down possible...
Much of this aspect of Slayerness was covered in Joss' miniseries
Fray (now Fray the Neverending), or at least alluded
to. There are several; basic attributes of Slayerness that Proto-Slayers
are born with, including physical advantages and a psychic link
to the previous Slayers (those two were split between Fray and
her male twin, an indication that in application the rules can
get wonky). The Calling is bestowed upon one of the proto-Slayers
and includes, presumably, an increase in those powers (there are
supposed to be dreams as the psychic connection strengthens, mentioned
in the movie, Welcome to the Hellmouth and in Fray,
where it is suggested that Slayer fighting ability is based upon
the experience of the predecessors). So the absolute need for
a Watcher is debatable, great idea though it is that the FE is
trying to remove them rather than their charges.
My assumption has always been, although no evidence actually exists,
that the Watchers could track magically the Slayer Essence and
so find the Chosen One once they had been Chosen, even if they
had no clue to the girl's existence previously. In the movie,
Merrick didn't use the birthmark to track Buffy (how could he
- and if he did, he'd have known it had been removed) but rather
to support his story about her being the Slayer.
No, I think the First needed to remove the Watchers as a support
system because it works its evil better on the individual level
rather than the institutional one. It would rather mess with the
minds of the Scoobies than the recordskeeping of the Stuffy Ones.
It wants evil to spring forth from Buffy and her friends - the
ones that don't scare it, at least. So why hasn't Xander been
tempted? Is he the keystone, needed only at the end?
And if this doesn't work, with the Watchers gone the FE can always
rely on the Internal Revenue Service for instituional Evil...
[> [> [> Re: Semi-established
mythology ( Spoilers 7.10 and Fray) -- Rook, 07:41:39 12/25/02
Wed
If "Any female on earth" could become the Salyer, yet
Proto-salyers are born with enhanced abilities, then wouldn't
"every female on earth" have those abilities?
If there is something different about the SITs that allows the
Watchers to find them, then there is no reason the FE couldn't
find them the same way. The pool is limited, as evidenced by your
second paragraph. There are going to be a limited number of girls
with these abilites. Whether its tracking them through a family
line or honing in on the mystical energies that are waiting to
be activated by the death of the Slayer, there are a finite number
of girls with these abilites. And obviously the WC has a way to
track them, so it's entirely logical the the FE with whatever
powers it possesses is able to do at least as well, if not better,
than the WC.
And, based on what we've seen, the FE can track those undiscovered
by the WC. The german SIT, for example, did not even remotely
look like she was being trained by the WC, at least not in accordance
with any of the rules established by Kendra in WML. She was out
partying...not an activity allowed for in the Slayer's handbook,
I imagine.
And, from a dramatic standpoint, it just wouldn't work to switch
mid-stream and have the WC be the victims of the plot. Watchers
are just well trained humans. The Slayer is the one with the power,
and if you doubt it, you need to watch Checkpoint again. A dastardly
plot to wipe out the WC at this point would just be a big let
down. The people we've seen the FE go after are SITs, not Watchers-in-training.
[> [> [> Re: Fray
-- Robert, 13:52:24 12/25/02 Wed
>>> Much of this aspect of Slayerness was covered
in Joss' miniseries Fray (now Fray the Neverending), ...
Ahh! Do I detect a note of annoyance, if not outright disgust?
You and other readers may be interested to know (if you don't
already), that Darkhorse currently has episode 7 scheduled for
release on Apr 23, 2003. If this date is met (and this is a really
big if) then it will have released 13 months after episode 6.
I admit to becoming more than a little impatient myself over the
protracted release schedule. I realize that Whedon is a busy man.
In fact he completely redefines the term busy man. But,
I've been sucked into the story of Fray, and damn it I want to
know how it ends.
[> Re: Life is a Mystery
/ - Thoughts on *Bring on the Night* ( Part II ) ... ( Spoilers
7.10 ) -- OnM, 19:53:59 12/26/02 Thu
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part I ) ~ ~ ~
As to the three SITís themselves, we know very little about
them yet, other than that they seem to be young British
women, presumably the ones from his home territory that Giles
was aware of, or that hadnít already been killed. If I
understood correctly, Giles stated that there were ëmore
on the wayí, implying that we might shortly see some
additional new faces. It isnít stated just who might be
bringing them, or if their Watchers are still alive. Next ep or
so, I
guess.
There were, as usual, several movie/pop-culture refs in the show.
One of the more subtle ones might have been a spin
on the several ëSlumber Party Massacreí type of cheezy
horror flicks of decades past. If you add in the three SITís
(Annabelle, Kennedy and Molly) to the preexisting femme constituency
of the Summersí residence (Buffy, Willow,
Dawn and Anya) and throw in the ësleeping arrangementsí
scene, it does appear to be an homage with a twist, since
every one of the women present (theoretically) has significant
evil-monster-fighting skills.
Be that as it may, the apparently calm, assured, authority-deferring
Annabelle turns out to have been wound just a mite
too tight, and makes the unwise decision to flee the premises.
While this might seem an odd reaction for a reputedly
ëtrainedí individual, I thought it was pretty reasonable
when one one considers that Buffy herself was pretty frightened
when she was first called, and there was considerably less overall
violent mayhem present at that time-- Buffy was just
dealing with plain olí vampires, not the original Source
of Evil itself.
Itís also possible that Xanderís admittedly funny
ëjoking in the face of deathí quips and M. Night Shyamalan
ëSignsí ref didnít really have the intended
calming effect on the newbies. Xander is still used to working
with
his friends, who appreciate the intent of the humor-- but I somehow
doubt that the Council of Watchers employs this
methodology in their training exercises. Annabel may have even
thought that this was an indication of extreme
desperation or hysteria on Xanderís part, and Willow didnít
help matters much with her obvious nervousness and
flimsy sounding ëguaranteeí talk..
Nervousness-wise, I noticed that the four calmest persons present
were Xander, Anya, Dawn and Buffy, more or less
in that order, although with Buffy it might be more a case of
controlled tension and apprehension than nerves. She is,
after all, the one that the big burden is being placed upon (again),
and certainly one of the oddest oddities of ?Giles? in
this ep was his tendency to put Buffy on the spot in this way,
as opposed to supporting her psychologically and trying
to calm her understandable fears. Has Xander gone completely Zen
about things now that he and Anya are behaving in
a more friendly fashion again? He seemed mostly unperturbed at
everything that happened excepting the horrific
condition the uber-vamp left Buffy in at the end of the show.
Speaking of which, I mentioned earlier that Bring on the Night
had several very disturbing moments, but none
was more so for me than to see Buffy get hurt as badly as she
did in her second fight with the uber-vamp. I am trying
to recall any previous episodes where our heroine ended up this
badly physically battered after a fight, and the only one
I can think of is Helpless. Even there, there were extenuating
circumstances-- Buffy didnít have her normal
strength and healing abilities present when she was fighting Kralik.
In any event, the quietly awful sound of rib bones crunching,
Buffy limping away from the fight scene (only to be
dragged right back into it as the ëTerminatorí rose
up out of the pile of heavy pipes that should have killed it,
or at least
seriously injured it) and the bloodied face on the unconscious
body at the bottom of the pile of rubble were some of the
scariest images I can recall in this series.
Considering the amount of torture and general violence that BtVS
has presented us with over the last six years, Buffyís
sufferings have been far more psychological than physical. This
isnít intended to mean that sheís ëgotten off
lightlyí--
on the contrary, as Xander was unsuccessfully trying to get across
to Andrew when he explained about how ëhis heart
was cut out and darkness left in its placeí, psychological
torments are often the more lingering and harder to deal with.
The reasons that the writers consciously depict less overall physical
torture for Buffy may have several explanations.
My guess is that first off, Joss set out to do a feminist turn
on horror movie cliches, and certainly one of the vilest and
most pervasive of them is the sexualization of violence directed
towards women. Making Buffy able to defend herself
against physical aggressors (human or demon, male or female) was
the first big step in that direction. However, it is
unreasonable and unrealistic to have Buffy always emerge from
a fight unscathed. (Even Superman had his
Kryptonite-- if he literally could never be pained or injured
by anything, anytime, then it is hard to feel that he was ever
truly threatened, and so he would become less sympathetic and
humanly identifiable). And, Buffy is female, and a
sexual being, so it is also impossible to completely divorce from
possible perception any or all sexual innuendoes that a
viewer may read into a depiction of violence directed against
her. That part canít be helped, but ME can try to
minimize it.
So, Buffy does get physically hurt, but usually not too badly.
When she does, the scenes are always carefully written
and shot so as to not sexualize/eroticize the violence directed
at her. When sexual violence or the chance of it does
present itself (such as with the demon biker gang of Bargaining,
or the startlingly horrific comment by
FE/Drusilla in this ep that ìlittle girls tear so easily--
like pink paperî), the perpetrators are uniformly shown
as being
repugnantly Evil. There is no suaveness or Hannibal Lector
quality present in these beasts. The closest that this
line has ever come to blurring is obviously the situation with
Spike and Buffy, but that isnít what Iím talking
about,
which I think you know-- and ME got into trouble for it anyway
in some quarters.
I mentioned the movie ref comparing the uber-vamp to Cameronís
(actually Ellisonís) Terminator, and Iím wondering
now just how hard this thing is going to be for Buffy and friends
to kill. I couldnít help but think that the very next step
after Buffy makes her St. Crispinís Day speech should be
for her to get a good dayís sleep, and then get that rocket
launcher she was going to use on Principal Wood in Him
and blast that sucker the way she did The Judge back
in season three.
In fact, Iím thinking that this is exactly what she will
do-- only to find that it only stuns or injures Ubee but doesnít
kill
him. So then what, tactical nukes? Would probably work, but might
be bad for Sunnydale. This would fit with the
terminator homage, since time after time it seemed that the Terminator
was ëkilledí, only to have it spring back to life,
and looking more evil every time (as when they blow up the tanker,
and only the metal skeleton is left, but it still keeps
coming). I think we are used to assuming that biological creatures
like Ubee could easily be killed with such advanced
weapons as a rocket launcher, but we already know that the ëBeastí
in A:tS can withstand bullets from a high-powered
rifle, and perhaps even more. Ubee may be tougher than he looks,
and he looks pretty sturdy so far. Lastly, if he gets
bumped off in the next ep or two, who or what will take his place
as the big bad for the next 10 eps? Or will the Beast
from A:tS decide to pay a visit, maybe shortly after word finally
gets to Sunnydale about the rain of fire in L.A.?
Now, a couple (OK, OK, more than a couple, a small multitude,
sheesh!) of remaining semi-random comments and
observations, then itís feeding time with the stew:
~~~ I do like the Slayers-in-training sub-arc (even though the
name is, well, dull). As I know many BtVS fans are, I
am really hoping for some more historical data on the Slayer beginnings
and traditions and such to be revealed in the
remainder of this season, which like many folk I tend to think
may be the last, at least in the form that we are familiar
with. Buffy kind of abandoned her ësearch for her Slayer-selfí
back in season four, after starting out wondering about
it, and I think that was as intended-- she really wasnít
quite ready for it then, appearances to the contrary. I think
that
ME planned whatever they have planned for this seasonís
end several years ago, at least generally, and now is the
logical time for Buffy to really dig into her heritage. This also
really makes sense in a real world manner-- very few
children or even young adults are terribly interested in history,
and why should they be? When you are young, the now
seems to be all that there is. This isnít wrong, itís
just human nature.
Psychologically, Buffy is now like a person who is much older
than her physical years, and so seeking out the currency
of historical perspective is going to gain in appeal to her. It
isnít just a matter of knowing where you came from,
although that can be fascinating, itís also understanding
that to be able to lead the next generation into the future, you
must first learn from the past.
~~~ When Buffy falls through the ground into the cave where she
first met the Harbingers and the First Evil, the
image of the broken boards jutting sideways from the ground really
reminded me of jagged teeth, and I thought of
Willowís remark earlier on in the season that ìthe
Earth has teethí.
~~~ Sleeping and waking are a repeating theme in this episode.
Buffy wants to sleep, but refuses because she claims
that itís necessary that she ëstay on the jobí.
One parent figure (Giles) tells her she needs to sleep. The other
parent
figure (Joyce) tells her to wake up. It would seem likely that
one or the other of these recommendations would be
advisable to follow, but which? Since either Giles or Joyce could
be on the side of either evil or good, there is no
immediate answer to this conundrum, either.
~~~ Is it possible that the Joyce that appeared before Dawn was
the FE and the one that appeared in Buffyís dreams is
the real spirit of Joyce? Or vice versa? We tend to assume that
whatever they are, they were both the same entity. Why
should they be?
~~~ The apparent time error between the previous ep and this one--
you know, the now itís November, now itís
nearly Christmas thing? That could be a sly comment of some kind
on how in America we now seem to open the
Christmas season right after Halloween. Perhaps it is just early
December, and when the statement that was made that
ëitís nearly Christmasí, we assumed that it
was late December when in fact it isnít.
~~~ Time error possibility number two: Back earlier in the season,
I posited that we might be seeing what appeared
to be continuity errors when in fact we were seeing the POV from
two different universes-- that some event had caused
a new Buffyverse to split off from the original one. Thus, we
have Buffy being nice to Spike in one, and doing the
tough love thing in another, and other anomalies. I tended to
drop this hypothesis after a few more eps, but now...
maybe I was premature.
~~~ Andrew, who is limited to absorbing only surface perceptions,
canít get a clear mental grip on the leadership
thing: ìSo how long have you followed Buffy?î Andrew
asks. Xander says that he doesn't ëfollowí Buffy,
she's his
best friend. ìShe seems like she'd be a good leader. Her
hair is shiny. Does she make you stab things?î
~~~ Does Kennedy make a pass at Willow, or is Willow reading more
into an innocent remark than whatís there?
Methinks-- well, I donít know either. (Damn! Do we know
anything for sure in this ep??) If it was a pass, then
we have yet more angst for Willow-- hope she doesnít get
all whiny again. Maybe Dawn can say mean things to her if
she does!
~~~ When the FE dispossesses Willow, and she collapses to the
floor, Xander goes to Anya first, not Willow, to see if
she is hurt.
~~~ That strange optical effect on Giles when Buffy crawls out
of the cave after the fight with Ubee-- Symbolically, is
he in shadow, or is the sunlight behind him like a halo? Depends
on your point of view. Diabolical, I tell you. (No, not
Giles, ME). Also, Joyce tells Buffy that she canít stop
the sun from going down, and that the sun will come up again.
This comment about the sun coming up might be a faint clue
that Dream!Joyce is the real deal. Why would the
First want to mention that the sun would come up again-- a hopeful
metaphor?
~~~ Still more fodder for the Buffy as Kwisatz Haderach theory:
Of all the words Xander could have spoken when he
sees the injured Buffy after her battle with the uber-vamp, he
says ìOh god almightyî. Buffy then rises from the
dead
(metaphorically) and speaks to her ëdisciplesí, who
are seated around a table. Last supper, anyone? And is Giles Judas?
And also:
FE/Drusilla: Do you know why you're alive? You're alive
for one reason, and for one reason only. Because I
wish it.
The First is no longer pretending to be Dru in anyway but her
outer appearance. The accent is nearly gone, and there
are no hints of Druís mental instabilities either. She
looks down at the badly beaten Spike, a look of abject hatred
and
anger on her face, obviously enraged that Spike will not give
in. Spike replies that he is through being a puppet for her,
meaning the FE.
FE/D: And what makes you think you have a choice? What
makes you think you will ever be any good at all
in this world?
Spike: She does. Because she believes in me. (meaning,
of course, Buffy)
~~~ Closed cap oddness: Up in her room, Buffy sits on a big overstuffed
chair, staring blankly at... what? The wall,
the doorway? She has been cleaned up a little from her encounter
with the UV, but is obviously in terrible shape, as we
hear Willow and Giles talk downstairs about just how badly Buffy
was injured. Itís a terrible, saddening sight-- as I
mentioned previously, this is about the worst physical beating
we have ever seen Buffy endure.
We hear Giles in the background, obviously speaking to the Scoobies
and the SITís. But what is strange is how
different the closed captioning is from what we hear spoken.
We hear:
Giles: We could make plans, as we always do. But the truth
is, Buffy was our plan. There is no backup.
Willow: Giles, she looks bad.
Giles: She does. Iím afraid there may be internal
bleeding.
Willow: What does that mean? Will she...
Giles: Die? I donít think so... I donít know.
Willow: What will we do if she canít fight? If she
canít beat this thing?
Giles: Weíre back at square one.
Xander: Which square would that be exactly?
Giles: Iím not sure. The First predates everything
weíve known.
The closed captions read:
Giles: Uh, her ribs are smashed. She should be hospitalized
immediately.
Willow: Could she die?
Giles: Despite her healing abilities, I believe so. I wonít
lie to you. I donít know what to do in a situation like
this because there has never been a situation like this. Which
means we are back at square one.
Xander: Which square would that be exactly?
Giles: Iím not sure. The First predates everything
weíve known.
~~~ Lastly, hereís ëthe speechí, with transcription
and descriptive text courtesy of Leoff:
Buffy suddenly appears at the dining room entrance.
[Buffy]: ìWe don't know how to fight it. We don't know
when it'll come. Can't run, can't hide... can't pretend it's
not the end 'cause it is. Something has always been there to try
and destroy the world. We've beaten them back, but
we're not dealing with them anymore. We're dealing with the reason
they exist. Evil. The strongest. The First.î
Giles interrupts. ìBuffy, I know you're tired...î
[Buffy]: ìI'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared. I'm standing
on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me
whole.î
Suddenly her mood changes.
ìAnd it'll choke on me. We're not ready? Theyíre
not ready. They think we're gonna wait for the end to
come, like we always do? I'm done waiting. They want an apocalypse?
We'll give 'em one. Anyone else who wants to
run do it now, because we just became an army. We just declared
war. From now on we won't just face our worst
fears, we will seek them out. We will find them and cut out their
hearts, one by one, until the First shows itself for what
it is. And I will kill it myself. There's only one thing on this
earth more powerful than evil. And that's us.î
She looks around at her ëarmyí.
ìAny questions?î
~~~
Powerful and stirring words, and they needed to be said-- one
look at the barely concealed abject terror on Dawnís
face during the first part of the speech as she stares at the
battered face of her sister tells us that this is true. But is
Buffyís plan the true solution, or is there some
other answer?
Donít ask me. Itís a mystery. But I donít
think that Buffy will stand alone.
*******
I found a picture of you, oh,
What hijacked my world that night
To a place in the past we've been cast out of
Oh, now we're back in the fight
We're back on the train, oh
Back on the chain gang
A circumstance beyond our control, oh
The phone, the TV and the news of The World
Got in the house like a pigeon from hell, oh
Threw sand in our eyes and descended like flies
Put us back on the train, oh
Back on the chain gang
The powers that be that force us to live like we do
Bring me to my knees when I see what they've done to you
But Iíll die as I stand here today, knowing that deep in
my heart
They'll fall to ruin one day for making us part
I found a picture of you, oh
Those were the happiest days of my life
Like a break in the battle was your part, oh
In the wretched life of a lonely heart.
Now we're back on the train, oh
Back on the chain gang
............ Pretenders
*******
[> [> Re: Life is a Mystery
/ - Thoughts on *Bring on the Night* ( Part II ) ... ( Spoilers
7.10 ) -- DEN, 21:10:50 12/26/02 Thu
The "war" metaphor is shaping s7 to the point where
BOTM resembles those old WWI movies like "Wings" and
"Dawn Patrol." Willow is the veteran with too many combat
hours, muttering "sorry I let you down, old boy" as
her shaking hands try to hold a scotch and soda. Xander is the
cockney gunner, keeping his sense of humor as things unravel.
Anya is the squadron American, the volunteer from far away, never
quite understanding the people she fights alongside. In Giles
we have the wise and experienced adjudant, prohibited by age and
wounds from climbing into a cockpit. The SiTs are the green lieutenants,
doomed to early and horrible deaths--certainly doomed if, like
Annabella, they panic and break formation. And there's Buffy,
coming on like Errol Flynn or Richard Barthelmess. "Chaps,
I know it's hell up there. Von Richthofen's flying circus is tearing
us to pieces. We're outnumbered and outgunned. But the lads in
the trenches are counting on us, and the squadron will do its
duty to the last man!"
Cheese, sure--but high-quality strong-flavored cheese for a desperate
situation!
I forgot Dawn. Maybe she can be Snoopy, like in the "Peanuts"
cartoon and the songs!
[> [> [> Re: Life
is a Mystery / - Thoughts on *Bring on the Night* ( Part II )
... ( Spoilers 7.10 ) -- aliera, 04:35:38 12/27/02 Fri
Thanks OnM, been looking out for the continuation...now looking
forward to a good lunch time read. BTB just received Leslie's
book in the mail yesterday; did anyone else get their copy yet?
I started it last night but need to leave it at home or else no
work will get done today.;-)
[> [> I hadn't noticed...(BOtN
spoilers) -- Rob, 22:48:53 12/26/02 Thu
...that thing you pointed out, about Xander running to Anya before
Willow. That's a wonderful little detail that, even though they're
not together any longer, his first instinct now is to protect
Anya, even though Willow was the one with the demon coming out
of her nose! It gives me great hope that the two of them could
get back together...assuming they both survive the season. And
you never can tell this year.
Rob
[> [> Re: Thoughts on
*Bring on the Night* ( Part II ) ... ( 7.10 & future spoilers)
-- Cheryl, 07:33:58 12/27/02 Fri
In fact, Iím thinking that this is exactly what she
will do-- only to find that it only stuns or injures Ubee but
doesnít kill
him. So then what, tactical nukes? Would probably work, but might
be bad for Sunnydale.
I've been wondering, too, what can they possibly do to stop Ubee,
but then after watching Doomed last night on FX I started wondering
. . .
about that opening to the Hellmouth that those 3 sacrificial demons
jumped into - Buffy jumped in after them and Riley pulled her
out. Is that the same place Ubee came out of? When Buffy said
it will swallow and choke on her (or words to that effect), could
she be thinking of going down that hole again? If so, will someone
be there to pull her out again?
Purely speculation, but maybe the final fight between Buffy and
Ubee will be back at the school, over the hellmouth. Something
(earthquake? Spike's blood again? Dawn's blood?) opens the hellmouth
and Ubee and Buffy go tumbling in. Will one of the Scoobies have
to be sacrificed? Or Faith maybe? I don't know. And that only
takes care of Ubee, not FE, unless losing his pet will cause FE
to slink away again to fight another day.
Which of
the Seven Dwarfs are you? Certainly OT -- Sara, or more appropriately
sneezy, 22:06:06 12/24/02 Tue
Ok, I'm kind of punchy because it's almost 1:00am and I haven't
been able to sleep because of my allergies, and after spending
a month trying to lose the nyquil/dayquil monkey off my back,
I've just had to go back to my little green capsules, and so I'm
Sneezy (although, obviously an awfully good case could be made
for Dopey - even without sleep deprivation) and I was wondering
where all of you fit into my little fairy tale world? Darby is
currently being Sleepy on the family room couch with the tv on,
but he often does a great job of Grumpy (which the Kid will attest
to enthusiasticly) however I in an unusual moment of sentimentality
will call him the Handsome Prince. Ahhhh. By the way does anyone
know all the seven dwarfs names? I can remember Sneezy
- well duh, that's what brought up this somewhat incoherent post,
Dopey - my other alter ego, Sleepy, Doc, Grumpy, but what were
the other two? Hungry and Creepy? No, that isn't it...Flakey and
Crazy, probably not, but I could play them in the movie without
much of stretch. Anyway, I'm going to go to bed now and wait for
the miracle which is NyQuil to do its magic.
Goodnight All and Merry Christmas to those who celebrate!
- Sara, planning to sleep in and vegetate while you guys eat your
goose and puddings
[> Bashful and .Happy
-- CW, 06:47:11 12/25/02 Wed
and that's with all the 9-year-olds in the faimly elsewhere this
Christmas. Aw shucks.
;o)
[> [> Anyone who doesn't
read the thread now thinks of you this way, CW -- Darby, 09:11:11
12/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> Re: Anyone
who doesn't read the thread now thinks of you this way, CW
-- CW, 15:13:09 12/25/02 Wed
That's okay. They're pretty much my best answers for the subject-line
question as well.
;o)
[> I can't decide between
Grumpy, Dopey & Doc. I'm one of those.. -- ZachsMind, 09:33:26
12/25/02 Wed
Maybe I'm all three just at different times. Sometimes I'm more
one than the other.
[> Grumpy, unfortunately.
-- Lilac, 12:31:03 12/25/02 Wed
[> my wife would say I'm
Stinky. -- neaux, 12:32:04 12/25/02 Wed
[> Suffering from tail-ends
of a cold - so Sneezy/Coughy? -- s'kat, 12:52:21 12/25/02
Wed
[> I guess this is easy
for me - I'm Doc -- Dochawk, 13:07:26 12/25/02 Wed
As an aside I rarely recommend the medications you are taking.
And they really don't help for allergies. Is Claritan over the
counter yet? If so, try it. If not make a visit to your MD, you
shouldn't have to suffer like that (or call him/her and ask for
a nasal inhaler for allergies), we've really improved the treatment
for allergies. (Just to point out, allergies are not my expertise,
so this is from a general med point of view).
[> When I saw first saw
it ('50s) I identified Dopey. -- frisby, 17:54:49 12/25/02
Wed
I don't know why, but when I first saw the movie in the '50s while
a young boy I identified with Dopey, and to the degree any of
them still fits, I suppose its still him. But I wonder what that
means? And I didn't like Grumpy. Later though, the identification
switched to Prince Philip (from Sleeping Beauty).
[> I'd be Snow White ^_^
-- Snow White, 18:40:01 12/25/02 Wed
Current board
| More December 2002