| Previous December 2002 |
The chip, the conditioning, and who's to
blame for it -- RichardX1,
00:17:18 12/09/02 Mon
The First Evil played on this weakness, conditioning Spike to
respond to a specific "trigger"--the song, "Early
One Morning". <<
Are you sure it was the First who did the conditioning? I think
it was the Initiative. After all, the shadowy leadery types discussing
the Initiative after it fell were talking about *controlling*
the demons, not subduing them (besides, why subdue when you can
exterminate?). Furthermore, a soulless nonhuman seems to close
a lot of cans of worms about the morality of training people to
become killers. (as well as opening a few more).
My theory is that the Initiative was trying to use demons, whose
nature frequently includes the killing of humans, to create assassins.
As killing is essential to their nature, demons already have the
know-how *and* the desire to do so. All one would need to do would
be regulate whom they killed. Hence, the chip.
This also explains how Spike's chip failed whenever he was "triggered"--namely,
it didn't. The chip was an integral part of the conditioning process,
aside from merely restraining the weapon (Spike) when not in use.
The chip was most likely programmed to disengage whenever Spike
heard that song. Furthermore, I'll bet the chip actually stimulated
the production of certain hormones or whatnot to increase Spike's
aggressiveness, as well as perhaps pointing him in the direction
of the prey his wielders had selected.
Forgive me if this seems somewhat random; (a) I'm a stream-of-consciousness
typist, and (b) current job situations have forced me to be awake
in the middle of the night and to sleep during the day.
[> Oh I agree so much -- Deb, 05:07:12 12/09/02
Mon
With the Initiative thing and with the stream of consciousness
thing, and working long over-night hours. We all suffer for our
art : )
Strange though, I just mentioned stream of consciousness in the
post I posted before this post. Virginia Woolfe too.
[> Makes sense to me (Spoilers to 7.9; unspoiled spec)
-- Sophist, 08:28:15 12/09/02 Mon
It's consistent with Xander's "army movie" explanation,
with Adam's control of Riley, and with the failed attempt to get
Adam to "shut down". It also makes sense that The First
has the knowledge to use the trigger, just as it has knowledge
of the other characters as shown in CwDP. The only mystery is
how and why The Initiative chose that particular song.
I like the idea also because I've long felt that Spike's chip
needed to be removed. This provides the perfect excuse for doing
so.
[> [> The song (Spoilers to 7.9; unspoiled spec)
-- Darby, 09:58:57 12/09/02 Mon
In the shooting script it was "I'll Be Seeing You."
Either Joss changed it or they couldn't get the rights to it and
had to switch to a folk song, which made the harmonica scene almost
impossible to pick up (the song was supposed to change to Spike's
trigger when he approached - was the musician a dead guy only
Spike could see & hear? - but it was such an unfamiliar song,
who in the audience noticed?).
The basic premise of varied modes controlled by the chip makes
sense, though. Or as much as any of the chip-stuff does.
[> [> [> Re: The song (Spoilers to 7.9; unspoiled
spec) -- slain, 13:03:36 12/09/02 Mon
The chip definitely falls into the category of 'Things which serve
a good plot purpose but are not adequatedly explained and rapidly
become annoying or redundant'. The chip has been useful, briefly,
but it seems to me that the amount of time the writers have spent
trying to get round it (Spike can hurt Buffy because she's been
resurrected, and Spike can knock out Xander and hit people if
he does it quickly) seems to suggest they wanted the thing rid
of some time ago, but hadn't been able to think of a good way
of working it into the plot.
But to get back to the original point, the Initiative thing certainly
makes sense to the point of it seeming almost spoilery! The fact
that it was an old English folk song, and something that seemed
very personal to William/Spike, was a bit of a mislead; 'I'll
Be Seeing You' seems much more like the kind of thing the miltary
would choose.
Riley was a sleeper just as much as Spike was, and was controlled
by his chip; even though the chip was in his heart, not in his
brain. And of course what with the First being slightly omnicogniscant,
it's not improbable that it might know about the chip's musical
trigger. The fact that the music is capable of not simply making
Spike revert to a killer, but of being controlled for a specific
purpose and blending in rather than standing out (like a sociopath
rather than a psychopath, just to annoy people!).
Failing that, and assuming that the song was the First's own idea,
the basic idea that it was through the chip that the First got
to Spike is certainly valid.
However.
Andrew, and probably Principal Wood, are also controlled by the
First, and they don't have chips - they have vulnerabilities,
which the First uses. So, well, perhaps chipped Riley and chipped
Spike both being sleepers is just a concidence. A remarkable coincidence,
though.
[> Wow, that makes so much sense! (Also, about the change
of song--) -- Dyna, 10:53:15 12/09/02 Mon
As Sophist said, that ties in perfectly with Xander's comments
about the army movies--also with the recent musical reminder of
Pavlov's Bell we had in Aimee Mann's song, harking back to that
giant PAVLOV written on Dr. Walsh's chalkboard back in "The
Initiative." I will be so delighted if this explanation actually
becomes text, instead of remaining in the realm of speculation!
Oh, and about the song, kind of in reply to Darby and also just
musing:
I don't know if there were issues with getting rights for the
song "I'll Be Seeing You," but my first reaction on
hearing this was the writer's original choice was that it would
have been an extremely difficult song to work with in this context.
It has a very slow tempo, for one thing; it's not something you
can hum while, say, briskly digging a hole. Also for that reason,
it takes a long time to sing even one bar--10-15 seconds maybe.
An eternity in TV time! And too, because the chorus is a very
common expression, opportunities to create mystery by referring
to the song would have been lost--like at the break between acts
2 & 3 where MorphySpike says "How could you use a poor
maid so?" That was cryptic and intriguing. If he'd said "I'll
be seeing you?" Not so very.
Dyna, who clearly has too much time on her hands this morning,
and needs new Buffy to give her something new to mull over!
[> [> More on the songs (Spoilers 7.8-7.9) and chips
-- shadowkat, 20:21:31 12/09/02 Mon
Agree. I preferred Early One Morning actually because the metaphors
work better for Buffy and Spike.
The "Oh don't decieve me, Oh never leave me! How could you
use a poor maid so." Which is cryptically repeated so many
times - fits both characters abandonment issues and fears.
And how they feel about themselves and their past relationships
and each other.
The harmonica guy was playing Oh Susannah - which is an American
Folk Song with a similar theme except the singer is a guy. Early
One Morning in contrast is an English Folk song where the singer
is a girl. Can't remember the lyrics of Oh Susannah, but pretty
sure they are agnsty as well.
The reason you don't hear a different shift unless you've watched
it at least twice and once with close captioning is the tunes
are somewhat similar. But that's the point. So no one, including
Spike really picks up on it. A trigger as portrayed in every military/suspense
thriller I've seen including a ton of sci-fi is usually fairly
subtle, sometimes no more than a discordant note or a line of
poetry.
In Telefon the trigger was " I have miles to go before I
sleep" in Robert frost poem. In Btvs - it's not just the
tune but the words. Spike turns into demon face the moment the
singer sings "how could you use a poor maid so" in the
celler in Sleeper.
In Never Leave Me - Spike shifts...as the song begins.
Possibly even before.
With this song - they don't have to explain too much, they can
leave it ambiguous as to why it affects Spike on such a deep level
and it is so ironic at the same time. Spike gets a soul for Buffy
but his efforts are twisted and his killing more than he did with
the chip b/c of a trigger.
The song literally states that he is a bad man - and chides him
for being one on one level, while on a deeper level it bemoans
the fact that he - or rather the man he was that Buffy saw potential
in - is dead once the trigger takes effect. The First is trying
as it did with Angel to kill the man and let out the demon. With
Angel it tried to get him to lose the soul again - with Spike
it could very well be harnessing the chip (man-made) with this
song - to knock out the soul and trigger the demon.
Hmmm interesting if true. Using human things to get rid of the
soul. In Amends - Angel screams it is the man who needs killing
- the man who could do her in. The first is working on Angel's
human weakness and desires - the desires that lead to the mistake
in Surprise. In Never LEave Me - Sleeper - the first may be using
the man-made chip which ironically kept Spike (as a soulless demon)
from harming humans as the means to make the ensouled Spike harm
and kill humans - turning them into more vampires now. The First
is trying to tell both vamps that they can't escape what they
are - being vampires - they can't become better men, the world
is good vs. evil and they are on the side of evil, end of story.
So with Spike - irony of ironies - it says "you think a soul
is going to change you? protect Buffy? make you a better man?
You schmuck! I'll make you kill more people than you ever did
without one." It does the same thing with Angel - you think
you can get out of hell and become a better man now you have a
soul again?
Well just see about that.
What i'm not sure about is where ME is going with this.
I think Spike has a soul. But is the first really using the chip
to trigger him? Did the Initiative plant the device in Spike at
the get-go and all the First had to do was wait for the right
time to access it? If so...will this lead them to the story I've
been waiting for? Will the SG have to find a way to get rid of
Spike's chip? Or does the chip matter anymore? Is it Spike himself
who will have to break his conditioning? Finally push past the
artificial device and make his own choices?
Not sure. All I know for certain is:
1. I saw the chip work in several episodes including Sleeper.
2. Spike doesn't appear to know that it stopped working.
3. To Spike the reason he doesn't want to hurt people is he can
barely live with what he's already done and the idea of hurting
more people fills him with self-loathing and dread.
4. Spike feels the pain of the soul all the time - and hears and
feels and sees everyone he killed.
5. Early One Morning song triggers a nasty response and demon
takes control
6. Initiative put a chip in Spike's head and said it was to keep
him from harming any living thing and it was so deeply embedded
no one could remove it.
7. Drusilla predicted it when she turned Spike "burn baby
fish swimming about your head" and told him that it was all
in his head, it did not prevent him from being bad.
Something Spike did not believe.
8. Spike could have destroyed the SG even with the chip in his
head - all it did was keep him from physically hurting them. And
he could have turned Buffy into a vampire at any time last year...but
didn't.
9. Spike went across the world and back, fought trials, and risked
his life to get a soul.
10. spike's decision to do #9 appears to have pissed off the BBW/FE.
So this means what exactly? Waiting eagerly to find out, assuming
of course they tell us and don't just leave us hanging until January,
which they probably will do.
SK (less confused about some issues but still confused about others...)
[> Wow. This could SO work! -- ZachsMind, 18:28:14
12/09/02 Mon
Drusilla woulda known that it was one of Spike's/William's favorite
songs. Adam woulda known about it being used as a trigger by the
Initiative. The First appears to have access to both of these
entities. It's not just the images, because Willow never saw Cassie
face to face (she saw a picture on the Internet not the same thing).
The First seems to have access to the memories of those who have
died, predominantly those who have died having lost all hope.
If memory serves, in Clockwork Orange, the brainwashers used Ludwig
Van Beethoven music as part of Alex's conditioning, which just
happened to be his favorite music. It was a sheer coincidence.
One of the most powerful moments of that film is when Malcolm
MacDowell is screaming at the movie screen, "Not Ludwig
Van!" When they installed Spike's chip, he may have gone
through a similar moment.
The traditional song Spike was singing is perhaps one that is
a part of his past with Drusilla, harkening back to happier times
before the chip. One of the guys at buffyradio.com has been speculating
for weeks that The First was somehow able to get Spike's mind
back to a moment "pre-chip" and this song would certainly
be a way to do just that. I mean it's more probable the writers
won't get THAT detailed. The Initiative is over. They burned it
down and salted the earth. It's still under the college, but it's
also covered in cement. It'd be real difficult for them to go
back to that... But then... They did rebuild the high school...
Hrmmm..
I've been trying to think how the First Evil could have taken
the time to do this conditioning to Spike. It's a hard pill for
me to swallow. It's possible, but I've been waiting for them to
throw something else into the mix to make it more believable.
Granted, The First had all the time over the summer, but brainwashing
is not an easy task. I would think that to do it properly, The
First would need to do more than just endlessly kibitz over Spike's
shoulder. The First Evil still can't affect physical objects so
far as we know. It would have had to strap Spike down and put
him through intense conditioning. It's plausible. That scene at
the end of Never Leave Me may not have been the first time the
Harbingers have strapped Spike down. However, if the writers bring
The Initiative into this and explain that Spike was ALREADY conditioned
in this manner by the government years before, and The First was
just taking advantage of Spike's condition, it'd just make the
whole sleeper agent thing a lot easier to swallow, and it'd give
a reason for them to bring Riley back into the storyline if they
chose to do so.
Eventually. One way or the other. They gotta get rid of that chip.
If properly motivated, Riley's probably the only one who's got
the connections now to do it.
[> [> Re: Wow. This could SO work! -- akanikki,
19:45:02 12/09/02 Mon
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but in Smashed (I
think?), Spike gets Warren to check his chip to see if it is malfunctioning
and letting him hurt Buffy. So, the FE has access to the chip's
functioning courtesy of Warren, without going through the INitiative
- and so the writers have another scenario.
[> [> [> Maybe.. -- ZachsMind, 14:49:20
12/10/02 Tue
Warren admitted though that he didn't know precisely what the
chip did. Just that it worked properly. He wouldn't have known
about the (noncanonical) conditioning that the Initiative did
to Spike, but Adam would be more knowledgable about that.
[> [> What about Willow? -- Dariel, 19:58:30
12/09/02 Mon
They gotta get rid of that chip. If properly motivated, Riley's
probably the only one who's got the connections now to do it.
Will's pretty good with bullets (removed one from Buffy). Why
not the chip?
[> [> [> Agree -- shadowkat, 20:28:19 12/09/02
Mon
Exactly. They don't need to reference the Initiative or Riley
at all - they can use Warren for the First Evil's information
along with Adam for that matter. And they can use Willow to remove
it.
I don't think Riley could do it, even if he wanted to. Remember
the neurosurgeon in Out of My Mind? He made it clear that it was
impossible.
Willow is a better canidate and far more dramatic one - since
she's currently terrified of using magic thanks to the First Evil.
Also - there is always a third option: Spike pulls a Riley and
overcomes his conditioning on his own, without needing to have
the chip removed.
SK
[> [> [> [> Re: Agree -- Just George, 22:29:54
12/09/02 Mon
Shadowcat: "Also - there is always a third option: Spike
pulls a Riley and overcomes his conditioning on his own, without
needing to have the chip removed."
I'm fine with this, so long as "pulling a Riley" doesn't
include Spike digging around in his brain with a piece of broken
glass.
Ugggh.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [> Eww! -- HonorH, 00:33:26
12/10/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Disagree a bit -- MaeveRigan,
09:49:41 12/10/02 Tue
Willow is a better canidate and far more dramatic one - since
she's currently terrified of using magic thanks to the First Evil.
Just wondering what your evidence is for this idea? It looks to
me as if Willow is simply keeping her power in control, unlike
last season, when she used it for anything and everything, "helping
herself," as Tara said, out of control, until it controlled
her.
The FE/Cassie tried to terrify Willow by telling her that
that if she used any magic she'd end up killing all her friends,
but Willow pretty quickly saw through the whole fake "message
from Tara".
Just because Willow hasn't done any magic since then, doesn't
mean she's afraid to do it. It hasn't been necessary. Andrew,
for example, was already petrified by Willow's mere reputation.
[> [> [> [> [> Nothing definitive one way
or another -- shadowkat, 15:04:00 12/10/02 Tue
Nothing definitive one way or the other but a few curious items:
1.When the harbringers showed up in Never Leave Me - she looked
about to do something and decided against it.
2.She keeps mentioning how the First/Cassie/BBW may not have been
lying to them. And Anya backs her up in Sleeper by saying she
always told the truth when she was evil.
It just struck me as curious that she didn't use magic to protect
them from the harbringers at all. Especially since that was in
the shooting script and they deleted it.
But again...just a possibility. If she's not terrified - then
having Willow take the chip out is the obivous no-brainer solution.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nothing definitive
one way or another -- MaeveRigan, 06:27:23 12/11/02 Wed
And Anya backs her up in Sleeper by saying she always told the
truth when she was evil.
Anya's exact words: "I used to tell the truth all the time
when I was evil." As in: "I used to go to the beach
all the time when I lived in Florida." Doesn't mean you literally
spent every free minute there.
From Anya's tone and the context, I interpreted the phrase "all
the time" not as literally "always" but as the
common exaggeration for "often" or "frequently"
or "whenever it was useful."
Was Anya telling the truth when she masqueraded as a Sunnydale
student to help Cordelia wreak vengeance on Xander in "The
Wish"? I think we can probably assume this was a typical
example of her modus operandi.
One way in which Anya could be considered to have told the truth
"all the time" might be in her "literal" interpretations
of people's wishes. But her methods of leading people into making
those wishes appear to have frequently included deception, if
not outright lying.
[> I like your theory, I'm adding it on to my theory
pile -- ponygirl, 11:19:32 12/10/02 Tue
My theory pile is mighty and growing by the day!
I agree that the FE doesn't seem the type to sit down an hypnotize
someone, but does seem to be able to see into the secret places
of the mind. My current theories on Spike's conditioning:
1) Drusilla. We know she can do hypnosis and mind control quite
easily, plus the trigger song sounds very her. Spike could have
gone to her out of soulful guilt to make sure she was ok, and
she hypnotized him then, or she was in Sunnydale working for the
FE and caught Spike when he returned.
2) Giles. We've seen him hypnotize Buffy, both in Helpless and
in his Restless dream. My theory is that Spike went to him after
the resouling to seek help in dealing with the guilt, Giles gave
him the trigger song as a way of blocking out memories, then sent
him back to Sunnydale to help with the coming threat. Spike immediately
gets caught by the FE, and his conditioning gets all warped. Giles
doesn't hear from Spike, or about him from Buffy, assumes Spike's
dead.
3) Your theory. I like it, and explains why the chip doesn't work
when Spike's under the influence. Plus it could be used to tie
up a lot of Initiative loose ends (I have a feeling those guys
would fall under the FE's influence pretty easily). The Initiative
picking the trigger song is a bit of a stretch, but it may be
that they just created a trigger and the FE warped it to become
the song.
4) None of the above. This is ME after all, so this is my top
choice.
[> [> Re: I like your theory, I'm adding it on to
my theory pile -- lynx, 23:07:30 12/10/02 Tue
1) Drusilla. We know she can do hypnosis and mind control quite
easily, plus the trigger song sounds very her. Spike could have
gone to her out of soulful guilt to make sure she was ok, and
she hypnotized him then, or she was in Sunnydale working for the
FE and caught Spike when he returned.<<<
bingo. in 'help'(?) spike was telling one of the buffys about
what dru used to see, then he said 'and now i see her'.
[> Finally, I have been quoted! (No significant text)
-- RichardX1, 15:17:46
12/10/02 Tue
YES! I AM GOD OF THE SEA PEOPLE!
Thought of a fun new game. (spoilers 7.2)
-- Tyreseus, 17:32:44 12/09/02 Mon
I've been pretty quiet for the last couple of days, because it's
just been so much fun reading everyone's philosophical goodness.
You guys rock.
But anyway, I was watching "Beneath You" on tape, and
immediately after, I put on some music. The song was "Hallelujah"
as sung by Rufus Wainwright on the Shrek Soundtrack and I was
struck by how well the song fit the scene I'd just watched with
Spike in the church, on the cross. So I thought I'd toss this
out as a game. (Sorry, no troll thread to hijack)
Try to pick a song that best fits your favorite scene, character
or episode of BtVS. No fair using songs from OMWF or songs directly
from episodes - but showtunes, pop 40, opera, country, metal rock,
or ever rap are all fair game.
And can we all agree that Sarah MacLaughlin's "Angel"
is a lovely song, but an obvious choice.
For those who aren't familiar with it, here are the lyrics for
"Hallelujah" from the Shrek Soundtrack.
I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this...the fourth, the fifth
The minor fall
The major lift
The baffled King composing Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty in the moonlight overthrew you.
She tied you to a kitchen chair
She broke your throne
She cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Maybe I have been here before
I know this room, I've walked this floor
I used to live alone before I knew you.
I've seen your flag on the marble arch
Love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
There was a time you let me know
What's real and going on below
But now you never show it to me, do you?
And remember when I moved in you
The Holy Dark was moving too
And every breath we drew was Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Maybe there's a God above
And all I ever learned from love
Was how to shoot at someone who outdrew you.
And it's not a cry you can hear at night
it's not somebody who's seen the light
it's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
[> Skin by Oingo Boingo has lyrics that mesh with Spike's
relationship to Buffy... -- ZachsMind, 17:50:51 12/09/02
Mon
Skin by Oingo Boingo has lyrics that mesh with Spike's relationship
to Buffy... One could also say there's some macabre connections
between Willow & Warren, or Willow & that skin-peeling
demon guy in "Same Time Same Place" but that's more
of a literal interpretation.
Skin by Oingo Boingo
This is someone else's story
Someone that I never knew
This is someone else's body
Am I getting through to you
If you peel away the armor is something underneath
If you look below for hidden treasure underneath another layer
Are you hiding underneath the skin
If you peel away the skin is there anybody there
If you peel away the skin is there anybody there
If you peel away the armor is it too late to begin
Is there anybody hiding if you peel away the skin
Now a spark has passed between us now
A momentary recognition
Something lost and something gained
And something shared that feels strange
Something cold that will not go away
There's a heart as cold as ice
In a vault that's made of stone
Over years the walls got higher
Over years the walls have grown
Is there anybody in there in this self inflicted tomb
If you peel away the layers is there someone in this room
If you peel away the skin, if you peel away the skin
This is someone else's story
Someone that I never knew
This is someone else's body
Am I getting through to you
[> [> And while I'm on the subject of Boingo &
Spike... -- ZachsMind, 18:06:32 12/09/02 Mon
Boingo Lyrics
is a great resource for people like myself who love that band
and wish it never broke up. I personally believe a lot of what
comes outta Danny Elfman's mouth in his early days as a rock star
(now Danny Elfman writes music scores for motion pictures) could
just as easily come out of Spike's. First off there's the obvious
songs. Dead Man's Party. Good For Your Soul. I'm So Bad. Sweat.
Little Girls. It Only Makes Me Laugh. Not My Slave. Nothing Bad
Ever Happens. No Spill Blood...
Spike, or rather William The Bloody, coulda wrote these lyrics
himself. Sometimes it's like they came straight outta ol' "Randy
Giles" grey matter. Here. Check this out.
Try To
Believe:
It's so hard to find an answer
It's so hard to stand alone
It's so hard to find a feeling
That was buried long ago
It's so hard to trust another
When it's easier to hide
It's so hard to believe
Unless we try baby try
If I had a dream and it got away
If I found the words would I know what to say
If I had a chance to be someone else
Yeah if I try to believe, try to believe...
From When
The Lights Go Out: (think season two Spike)
No one can be trusted, when the lights go out
People act real crazy, people start to shout
People huddle together, try and hide their fear
People party down but they ain't goin' nowhere
They ain't goin' nowhere
Gonna run outside
What's there to see
Just one big shadow there to comfort me...
From Elevator
Man:
I ride my elevator
Through the shafts of your heart
When you climb aboard baby
There's no getting off
I'm a silent operator won't you please take my hand
I am so polite - I'm the elevator man
Friction and harmony - who's gonna ride with me
I'm the elevator man...
Oh I COULD go on and on but I won't. Listening to Oingo Boingo
is nonstop Spikeyness. If James Marsters ever did an album called
"James sings Boingo" I'd buy it. I would imagine anyone
who really adores Spike would just eat Oingo Boingo up. It's like
cutting open the character's mind.
[> Oooh, that does sound fun! -- Wisewoman, 17:55:43
12/09/02 Mon
I'm gonna cheat a bit, according to the rules laid out, and re-post
my investigation of the Firefly theme song, from the All Things
Debatable on Firefly board:
Date Posted: 15:01:42 12/08/02 Sun
Author: Wisewoman
Subject: Me, too...and a somewhat lengthy rumination on the theme
song.
In reply to: cjl 's message, "OK, I'm in." on 15:01:42
12/08/02 Sun
I absolutely adored War Stories. I'd say it was my favorite ep
so far. And, for the first time, I really listened to the lyrics
of the theme song (may be errors; transcribed from hearing it
only):
Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the skies from me
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the skies from
me
There's no place I can be since I found Serenity
You can't take the skies from me
Boy, does that ever tell me a lot about what's going on with Mal,
and the whole post-Civil War thing that Joss has mentioned. Mal's
loyalty to his ship (and by extension, her crew) is absolute.
He's found something that neither the Alliance nor anyone else
can take from himóhis own world, within his ship and yet
as boundless as the universal "skies."
The musical theme is brief, but very poignant. I don't know the
details of the pilot episode and whether or not it goes into Mal's
history in depth, but I'd bet that he was living on an outlying,
terraformed, colonized planet, and was probably farming, working
the land.
"Take my loveÖ" This could refer to Mal's love
of his home planet, his land, or perhaps he did have a love who
was killed or otherwise taken from him by the war with the Alliance.
"Take my land" is obvious. "Take me where I cannot
stand?" Where I can't make a stand or literally where I cannot
stand? Well, you certainly can't "stand" in space unless
you have a ship and artificial gravity. Or does he mean the more
vernacular "to a place I can't stand" (i.e. despise)?
"Take me out to the black," is a reference to the blackness
of space. Mal's superiors in the rebellion took him out into the
black so he could fight the Alliance. Serenity takes him out to
the black as well. "Tell them I ain't comin' back"ótell
who, exactly? The folks he left behind? The Alliance?
"Burn the land and boil the sea," IOW, destroy completely
any home I may have had, so that there is never the possibility
that I can return there, even to live on the water. This lyric
obviously implies "This is what you did," as opposed
to, "This is what you should do."
"There's no place I can be since I found Serenity."
Having the ship has liberated Mal. He feels there is no "place"
i.e. no spot on any planet, that will ever be his "home"
again. He has turned his back on land forever. His home, his country,
his land, is his ship (and his "serenity") in the skies
that can never be taken from him.
Makes me think that Mal would be likely to fight to the death
to retain Serenity. The tradition of the captain going down with
his ship must hold special resonance for him.
dub ;o)
[> Re: Thought of a fun new game. (spoilers 7.2)
-- luna, 18:40:39 12/09/02 Mon
Perhaps OT, but that was also used last year on West Wing when
they shot Kevin Costner (I think that's who--memory grows dim).
[> [> Re: Thought of a fun new game. (spoilers 7.2)
-- Payola, 21:15:02 12/09/02 Mon
Close -- it wasn't Kevin Costner, who would never deign to do
TV (big ego,) but Mark Harmon, of "Chicago Hope" fame.
That was the first time I'd ever heard the song. It's so appropriate
for so many watershed scenes I just hope it doesn't get overused.
I actually thought of Ute Lemper's "Scope J" for the
Spike/Buffy scene, and I dare everyone to come up with something
weirder and more obscure :)
[> Strumming my pain -- cougar- licking my chops
and purring loudly, 19:37:59 12/09/02 Mon
I too have been silent since the flippant food festival. I have
just been absorbing the buffet of human experience layed out so
honestly. Quite the feast. Some of the latest posts even worked
their way into my dreams, which is great because today the desired
ML Von Franz texts teleported into my library!
I was touched by the way people respond in this community on many
levels at once, without forgetting baseline humanity and the fact
that what may be an intellectual excersize for one, might stir
a powerful emotion in another. What good is a love of wisdom if
it doesn't provide safe passage for our own puzzled souls?
Funny thing about this post, but just yesterday I listened to
a song and it evoked an image of Spike and Buffy. I wanted to
write it down but had no reason to, so I guess this means I should
share it here.
Killing Me Softly (Fugees Version)
Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Kiling me softly with his song
Killing me softly with his song
Telling my whole life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
I heard he sang a good song
I heard he had a style
and so I came to see him and listen for a while,
and there he was, this young one
a stranger to my eyes
CHORUS
I felt all flushed with fever
embarassed by the crowd
I felt he'd found my letters
and read each one out loud
I prayed that he would finish
But he just kept right on
Strumming my pain with his fingers....
btw I recently heard that this song was inspired by Starry Starry
Night which arose from the Van Gogh Painting of the same name
[> Stretching the rules a little -- Haecceity, 21:42:23
12/09/02 Mon
Instead of
"a song that best fits your favorite scene, character or
episode of BtVS"
can I just admit that every time I see The Anya/Xander Sex Sex
Sex argument in the Ice Cream Truck (don't remember the ep, but
must have been before Restless, right?)I think of Tom Waits' "Ice
Cream Man". You know, kiss, cue music, notice audience, reaction
shot, long fade out to:
I'll be clickin' by your house about two forty-five
Sidewalk sundae strawberry surprise,
I got a cherry popsicle right on time
A big stick, mamma, that'll blow your mind
Cause I'm the ice cream man, I'm a one-man band (yeah)
I'm the ice cream man, honey, I'll be good to you.
Baby, missed me in the alley, baby, don't you fret
Come back around and don't forget,
When you're tired and you're hungry and you want something cool,
Got something better than a swimming pool
Cause I'm the ice cream man, I'm a one-man band
I'm the ice cream man, honey, I'll be good to you.
Cause I'm the ice cream man, I'm a one-man band
I'm the ice cream man, honey, I'll be good to you.
See me coming, you ain't got no change
Don't worry baby, it can be arranged:
Show me you can smile, baby just for me
Fix you with a drumstick, I'll do it for free
Cause I'm the ice cream man, I'm a one-man band
I'm the ice cream man, honey, I'll be good to you.
Be good to you, be good to you,
Good to you yeah, good to you yeah, good to you yeah, good to
you yeah,
Good to you yeah, good to you, I'll be good to you, I'll be good
to you...
Even just in the background during the scene--it's got that cool
eery ice cream truck jingle bell in it--in my head it cuts in
beautifully.
---Haecceity
off to think of an example that actually *fits* the rules
[> [> Continuing on the ice cream theme plus a couple
others -- ponygirl, 06:59:10 12/10/02 Tue
I always liked Sarah McLachlan's Ice Cream song, though I would
use it over Willow and Tara's love scenes in SR, a sweet little
song of reconciliation...
Ice Cream
Your love
is better than ice cream.
Better than anything else that I've tried
and your love
is better than ice cream
everyone here knows how to fight
and it's a long way down
it's a long way down
it's a long way
down to the place where we started from.
Your love
is better than chocolate
better than anything else that I've tried
and oh love is better than chocolate.
Everyone here knows how to cry
and it's a long way down
it's a long way down
it's a long way
down to the place where we started from.
And maybe a little Elliot Smith for Willow dealing with her dark
urges (man, that Elliot is bitter! gotta love him).
Bottle Up And Explode
bottle up and explode over and over keep the troublemaker below
put it away and check out for the day
and in for a round of overexposure
the thing mother nature provides to get up and go
bottle up and explode seeing the stars surrounding you
red white and blue
you look at him like you've never known him
but i know for a fact that you have
the last time you cried who'd you think was inside?
thinking that you were about to come over
but i'm tired now of waiting for you
you never show
bottle up and go, if you're gonna hide it's up to you
i'm coming through
bottle up and go, i can make it outside
i'll get though becoming you
becoming you
becoming you
And finally, since I'm still on my Aimee Mann kick, something
for Spike circa Dead Things:
High on Sunday 51
The monkey knows how you'll react
Creating want by holding back
Like some reverse pyromaniac
Let me try baby try
I brought my window up and then
I turned my back to lure you in
To rifle through what I might have been
Let me try, baby, try
Baby please--let me begin
Let me be your heroin
Hate the sinner but love the sin
Let me be your heroin
We have crossed the rubicon
Our ship awash, our rudder gone
The rats have fled but I'm hanging on
Let me try, baby, try
Baby, please--let me begin
Let me be your heroin
Hate the sinner but love the sin
Let me be your heroin
[> but wasn't it... -- parakeet, 22:31:47 12/09/02
Mon
John Cale who coverd Hallelujah (by Leonard Cohen) on the Shrek
soundtrack? Forgive me if I'm wrong, as I haven't heard the disc
itself, but I remember seeing the movie on DVD and thought it
was Cale.
As for the game, throughout season six, I kept having the Eels'
"Novocaine for the Soul" running through my head. Sorry,
I can't remember the lyrics (except for "Jesus and his lawyer
are coming back", but that's not really pertinent, I think),
but the sense of the song was desperation for feeling combined
with an equal desperation for blotting out pain.
[> [> No, it was wainwright. -- Tyreseus, 13:29:41
12/10/02 Tue
As one of the biggest Rufus fans I know, I'm sure of it. And for
those who commented below this, I know the song originally belonged
to Jeff Buckley and others, but this was my favorite rendition.
[> [> [> I stand corrected :) -- parakeet,
21:14:30 12/10/02 Tue
[> Sorry, no less than three suggestions... No.1 (spoiler
for S6 ep not aired on BBC yet) -- KdS, 03:53:16 12/10/02
Tue
Sorry, I have a real tendency to read songs into things - comes
from being a big fan of Northern Exposure which rounded
off each episode with an existing song of similar theme...
First - for the Buffy/Spike fight-turns-to-shag scene in Smashed,
Iggy Pop's I Need Somebody, (probably in Spike's record
collection - his Big Bad persona was far more Iggy than it was
Sid IMO.
Spike:
Well I am your crazy driver (honey)
I'm sure to steer you wrong.
I am dying in a story.
I'm only living to sing this song (just the same, baby)
I need somebody, baby
I need somebody, too
I need somebody, baby
Just like you...
Buffy:
Well I'm losing all my feelings
And I'm running out of friends
You know you lied to me in the beginning (baby, and now you're
gonna try to bring me)
Try to bring me to the end (and that's a shame baby)
I need somebody, baby
I need somebody, too
I need somebody, baby
Just like you
Spike
Well now it's time to leave this signal
The interference is too strong
Yeah I got my reputation
Ride them airwaves, not too long
Both:
I need somebody, baby
I need somebody, too
I need somebody, baby
Just like you
(Start bouncing each other off the walls, etc.)
[> [> I can't be the only one... (spoilers to mid
Season 6) -- Indri has insomnia, 02:26:51 12/11/02 Wed
...who thinks of Nine Inch Nails' Closer when watching
that Spike and Buffy scene. Assign lyrics as appropriate:
You let me violate you. You let me desecrate you
You let me penetrate you. You let me complicate you
Help me I broke apart my insides. Help me I've got no soul to
sell
Help me the only thing that works for me. Help me get away from
myself
I want to fuck you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to fuck you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
You can have my isolation. You can have the hate that it brings
You can have my absence of faith. You can have my everything
Help me you tear down my reason. Help me it's your sex I can smell
Help me you make me perfect. Help me become somebody else
I want to fuck you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to fuck you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
Through every forest, above the trees
Within my stomach. Scraped off my knees
I drink the honey inside your hive
You are the reason I stay alive
[> No.2 (whacking great spoilers for all aired S7 eps)
-- KdS, 04:05:27 12/10/02 Tue
From Who Needs Enemies?, by the Cooper Temple Clause, a
remarkable new British group. For the end of Never Leave Me,
just before the seal opens up:
(Spike strapped to the frame, with blood dripping off him.
First Evil begins to sing triumphantly, with Harbinger backing
group)
FE, as Master, in smooth plot mode:
My oh my, I'm seeing the potential
Let's just see what we can do
First we'll take you down back to the meathouse
And then you'll hold their hands again
I know tricks that you can only dream of
Looks like it's your lucky day
A killer key change is all you'll ever need
As Buffy, mockingly:
But who needs enemies when you got friends?
Now your hands are tied
Who needs accidents when you got me?
Now I'm on your side
As Richard Wilkins, impersonating his tone to Faith:
Now let's try and teach you how to mingle
Then we'll teach you how to kill
Lies will always be your best of best friends
Never be alone again
A killer key change is all you'll ever need
Buffy again:
But who needs enemies when you got friends?
Now your hands are tied
Who needs accidents when you got me?
Now I'm on your side
And all these animals that you call friends
Now they're on their knees
But man, you tricked them all, you played the fool
So damn easy to please
As Quentin Travers (we have to assume he's dead):
I made my name in function rooms
And drifting through the walls
Come on, let me teach you, boy
Teach you 'bout it all
Morphs into Adam, Fender Stratocaster plugged into head, speaker
stack plugged into... um, somewhere else. Guitar solo
Flickering through everyone, almost subliminally, for
final chorus:
Who needs enemies when you got friends?
Now your hands are tied
Who needs accidents when you got me?
Now I'm on your side
And all these animals that you call friends
Now they're on their knees
But man, you tricked them all, you played the fool
So damn easy to please
[> No.3 (No spoilers of any kind) -- KdS, 04:10:16
12/10/02 Tue
For Angel, in any episode whatsoever post-Amends. Will
Oldham aka Bonnie Prince Billy: I See a Darkness. Just
sums up Angel's whole personality and existential state for me.
Note that this assumes he can actually sing :-)
Well you're my friend
(It's what you told me)
And can you see
(What's inside of me)
Many times
We've been out drinking
And many times
We've shared our thoughts
But did you ever, ever notice
The kind of thoughts I got
Well you know I have a love
A love for everyone I know
And you know I have a drive
To live I won't let go
But can you see its opposition
Comes a-rising up sometimes
That its dreadful imposition
Comes blacking in my mind
And then I see a darkness
And then I see a darkness
And then I see a darkness
And then I see a darkness
And did you know how much I love you
Is a hope that somehow you you
Can save me from this darkness
Well I hope that someday, buddy
We have peace in our lives
Together or apart
Alone or with our wives
That we can stop our whoring
And pull the smiles inside
And light it up forever
And never go to sleep
My best unbeaten brother
This isn't all I see
O no I see a darkness
O no I see a darkness
O no I see a darkness
O no I see a darkness
And did you know how much I love you
Is a hope that somehow you you
Can save me from this darkness
[> Slightly OT -- Vickie, 07:59:21 12/10/02 Tue
I don't have a song to contribute, but I thought you might like
to know that Hallelujah is by Leonard Cohen. He's been around
quite a while, but if you are identifying the song with Shrek,
you might have missed his other music.
If you like Hallelujah, check out New Song for an Old Ceremony
(the album/CD) or anything else by Cohen.
[> [> Gotta love Leonard but for me Jeff Buckley does
the best version of Hallelujah -- ponygirl, 08:52:53 12/10/02
Tue
[> [> [> Not sure I know that one -- Vickie,
10:08:07 12/10/02 Tue
It's fun to see the newer artists covering Cohen's work. I've
liked pretty much all the covers I've heard--which has introduced
me to some music I might not have listened to otherwide.
[> [> [> Agree- a little more soulful -- TCH,
15:35:39 12/10/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Slightly OT -- Tyreseus, 13:41:18
12/10/02 Tue
Well, I know it's by Cohen, and Buckley covered it as well as
Wainwright (and others). I used the Shrek reference because I
was listening to the movie soundtrack at the time. I enjoy Cohen's
work, but thanks for thinking to reccomend it.
[> [> [> Leonard Cohen for people who don't like
Leonard Cohen -- cjl, 11:24:05 12/11/02 Wed
For those who have never adjusted to Leonard Cohen's voice, but
who still admire the guy's chops as a songwriter, I have a number
of options:
Jennifer Warnes - "Famous Blue Raincoat." Yeah, the
girl who sang "Up Where We Belong" with Joe Cocker.
An entire album of Cohen covers. Not a dud in the bunch.
Various Artists - "I'm Your Fan." The inevitable tribute
album, with a number of solid cuts, thankfully including some
of Cohen's later material.
You could fill a separate CD for covers of "Hallelujah,"
"Bird on a Wire," and "Suzanne"--three of
Cohen's all-time classic songs. "Hallelujah" has been
well-covered above. If you want to hear a kick-ass rendition of
"Suzanne," listen to British songstress supreme Sandy
Denny and her Fairport Convention bandmates wring every last drop
of angst out of it on their "Heyday" collection of BBC
performances. (Judy Collins' version ain't bad either. ) As for
"Bird," I'd recommend the Neville Brothers' soul-infused
version, and--for sheer quirkiness--the Bobs' Ramones-style a
capella rendition, usually paired with "Surfin' Bird."
(I kid you not.)
Of course, for prime quality Cohen sung by Cohen, the recently
released "Essential" has two disks of his best material.
Can't miss CD gift for the morbid and poetically inclined persons
in your family...
[> 5 stars to all players so far! -- Tyreseus, 13:59:14
12/10/02 Tue
Cool. Some very interesting choices. Sometimes, I think the proper
mood music after an episode of the show drastically changes my
analysis. I'm going to have to try using some of your choices
while watching reruns (I'm illegally downloading MP3s as we speak).
Here's another song I'm adding to the game for CWDP. I waffled
on this one, since the Indigo Girls were mentioned derisively
by the First Evil, but I think it kinda fits. The song "Ghost"
by Indigo Girls fits several characters well, and might have been
the very song BBW/Cassie had in mind when she pushed Willow to
off herself.
Here are the lyrics:
Artist: Indigo Girls
Song: Ghost
There's a letter on the desktop
that i dug out of a drawer
the last truce we ever came to
in our adolescent war
and i start to feel the fever
from the warm air through the screen
you come regular like seasons
shadowing my dreams
and the mississippi's mighty
but it starts in minnesota
at a place that you could walk across
with five steps down
and I guess that's how you started
like a pinprick to my heart
but at this point you rush right through me
and i start to drown
and there's not enough room
in this world for my pain
signals cross and love gets lost
and time passed makes it plain
of all my demon spirits
i need you the most
i'm in love with your ghost
i'm in love with your ghost
dark and dangerous like a secret
that gets whispered in a hush
(don't tell a soul)
when i wake the things i dreamt about you
last night make me blush
(don't tell a soul)
and you kiss me like a lover
then you sting me like a viper
i go follow to the river
play your memory like a piper
and i feel it like a sickness
how this love is killing me
i'd walk into the fingers
of your fire willingly
and dance the edge of sanity
i've never been this close
i'm in love with your ghost
unknowing captor
you never know how much you
pierce my spirit
but i can't touch you
can you hear it
a cry to be free
oh i'm forever under lock and key
as you pass through me
now i see your face before me
i would launch a thousand ships
to bring your heart back to my island
as the sand beneath me slips
as i burn up in your presence
and i know now how it feels
to be weakened like achilles
with you always at my heels
this bitter pill i swallow
is the silence that i keep
it poisons me i can't swim free
the river is too deep
though i'm baptized by your touch
i am no worse than most
in love with your ghost
you are shadowing my dreams
(in love with your ghost)
(in love with your ghost)
(in love with your ghost)
[> Re: Thought of a fun new game. (spoilers 7.2)
-- Shiraz, 13:59:16 12/10/02 Tue
For Insane in the basement Spike,
I give you,
The king of despair himself;
Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds:
Brother, My Cup Is Empty
Brother, my cup is empty
And I haven't got a penny
For to buy no more whiskey
I have to go home
I am the captain of my pain
Tis the bit, the bridle,
The trashing cane
The stirrup, the harness
The whipping mane
The pickled eye
The shrinking brain
O brother, buy me one more drink
I'll explain the nature of my pain
Yes, let me tell you once again
I am the captain of my pain
O brother, my cup is empty
And I haven't got a penny
For to buy no more whiskey
I have to go home
I cannot blame it all on her
To blame her all would be a lie
For many a night I lay awake
And wished that I could watch her die
To see her accusing finger spurt
To see flies swarm her hateful eye
To watch her groaning in the dirt
To see her clicking tongue crack dry
O brother, buy me one more drink
One more drink and then goodbye
And do not mock me when I say
Let's drink one more before I die
O brother, my cup is empty
And I haven't got a penny
For to buy no more whiskey
I have to go home
Well I've been sliding down on rainbows
Well I've been swinging from the stars
Now this wretch in beggars clothing
Bangs his cup across the bars
Look, this cup of mine is empty!
Seems I've misplaced my desires
Seems I'm sweeping up the ashes
Of all my former fires
So brother, be a brother
And fill this tiny cup of mine
And please, sir, make it whiskey
For I have no head for wine
O brother, my cup is empty
And I haven't got a penny
For to buy no more whiskey
I have to go home
I counted up my blessings
And counted only one
One tiny little blessing
And now that blessings gone
So buy me one more drink, my brother
Then I'm taking to the road
Yes, I'm taking to the rain
I'm taking to the snow
O my friend, my only brother
Do not let the party grieve
So throw a dollar onto the bar
Now kiss my ass and leave
O brother, my cup is empty
And I haven't got a penny
For to buy no more whiskey
I have to go home
[> [> Oh Boy... (nebulous S7 spoilers implied for
Cave fans...) -- KdS, 14:23:06 12/10/02 Tue
Another Cave fan!
There really is an affinity between Spike and Cave. A summary
of our boy's development :-)
Season Two: Deanna
Season Three: Brother My Cup Is Empty
Season Four: When I First Came to Town
Season Five: Let Love In
Season Six: Loverman
Season Seven (so far): Nick the Stripper
[> The "Extreme Lack of Imagination" response
to this thread... -- cjl, 11:38:56 12/11/02 Wed
"Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" by Ella Fitzgerald
("BB&B")
"Helpless" by Neil Young ("Helpless")
"Dead Man's Party" by Oingo Boingo ("Dead Man's
Party")
"Superstar" by the Carpenters ("Superstar")
"This Year's Girl" by Elvis Costello ("This Year's
Girl")
"Who Are You" by The Who ("Who Are You")
"The Real Me" by The Who ("The Real Me")
"I Was Made for Loving You" by KISS ("I Was Made
to Love You")
"All the Way" by Frank Sinatra ("All the Way")
"Help" by The Beatles ("Help")
"Bring on the Night" by The Police ("Bring on the
Night")
[> [> Re: The "Extreme Lack of Imagination"
response to this thread... -- Tyreseus, 13:04:18 12/11/02
Wed
Wow, seeing the episode titles that took their names from songs
all spelled out like that... the grand workings of pop culture
never ceases to boggle my mind.
[> [> [> Of course, there's always "I Only
Have Eyes for You"... -- cjl, 13:46:42 12/11/02 Wed
But you said no songs actually in the episode.
As for ANGEL, he's had his own run-ins with pop music
"In the Dark" by Billy Squier ("In the Dark")
"I Fall to Pieces" by Patsy Cline ("I Fall to Pieces")
"I've Got You Under My Skin" by Frank Sinatra ("IGYUMS")
"To Live and Die in L.A." by Wang Chung ("To Shanshu
in L.A.")
"Over the Rainbow" by Judy Garland ("Over the Rainbow")
And in Season 4, "The House Always Wins" screams for
"The Rat Pack: Live at the Tropicana," in constant CD
rotation through the entire episode....
[> Another Spike/Buffy "love" song... --
ZachsMind, 17:39:50 12/11/02 Wed
I was going through the online artists that I love to listen to,
checking to see what's new with them. FISHER
has a new album called Uppers & Downers which is worth
a looksee. Tunes like "Dirty Girl" and "Nothing
Is Real" are particularly impressive, but then Kathy Fisher
never ceases to amaze me, and what also amazes me is she's still
not kicking Brittney Spears' ass in the music pop charts, but
I'm not bitter.
On Fisher's first album there was this song. If you've ever seen
"Great Expectations" the movie it might be familiar
to you. The song is about a woman who uses a guy she does care
about as a punching bag, because she absent-mindedly thinks her
problems are important, she can't hold her emotions in and can't
release them at whatever's bothering her, so she takes them out
on this guy cuz she thinks he's able to handle it emotionally.
Then she finds out he's so very not.
It's like how Buffy used to use Spike, and confide in him when
she could turn to no one else, and now she's learning that her
selfishness has affected him in ways she didn't expect. Anyway,
here's the lyrics. It's from Fisher's "One" album.
Breakable
Do you always have to tell him everything on your mind?
You know that too much honesty can be so unkind
And every time you throw him to the floor
Why are you surprised to see he's breakable?
You always try to find what's holding him away from you
But do you ever see your anger
Standing there right between you?
And every time you throw him to the wall
Why are you surprised to see he's breakable?
Tell the world that he's breaking your heart
Go tell the world nothing's ever your fault
Go tell them all
And every time you throw him to the floor
Why are you surprised to see he's breakable?
And every time you push him to the wall
Why are you surprised to see he's breakable
Great song! I highly recommend Fisher. Would like to see her on
stage at The Bronze someday.