December 2002 posts
Different
Writing Styles of ME Writers on BTVS and ATS -- shadowkat,
10:23:35 12/06/02 Fri
(Uhm decided not to hijack a thread to do this, so hope this is
okay.)
Here's my take on the writers:
Starting with David Fury and Jane Espenson -
David Fury - has a comedic style, lots of quips and physical humor,
often at least I feel at the expense of characters. He also has
a bit of a dark sense of humor that can border on offensive at
times - but this is common in comedy writing. Comedy writing is
very difficult, few people do it well IMHO. I certainly can't
do it.
Episodes of David Fury's and my ratings:
1. Teacher's Pet - well it was his first one and it had some interesting
parts - the opening scene which was Xander's fantasy. But the
virgin jokes - I could have done without - a perfect example of
Fury's wit and at times off-color sense of humor. All in all?
C+
For more on Teacher's Pet see Rob's Annotated Buffy.
2. Crush - perhaps the best work Fury has done. It had cringe
worthy scenes and the out of character and jarring serial killer
line - which of all the writers on ME - only Fury feels the need
to use, yet another example of his dark wit, but the Spike/Dru
scenes were on target and the excellent Spike/Dawn dialogue as
well as the awkward date were memorable moments in the series.
This episode was A quality and a demonstration of what this writer
can do.
Others: Gone, Shadow, Grave, Bargaining PArt II, Sleeper - cowrote
with Jane Espenson, and The House Always Wins.
Fury is not my favorite of the writers. I feel his off-colour
humor is jarring and takes us out of the show. In The House Always
Wins - the jokes Angel makes about knowing the rat pack just did
not play. In Gone - it made little sense why Xander was death,
blind and dumb to Spike boinking invisible Buffy in front of him
nor was it as funny as Fury intended. OTOH Bargaining Part II
was incredibly risky and dark episode - yet it also was a great
depiction of how some of us felt after 9/11 and how buffy felt
coming back to life. As a director - Fury tends to hurt his own
work - as seen in Gone, which may have felt more solid and moved
better if he had not directed. Plotting doesn't appear to be a
strength - both Grave and House Always Wins seemed to drag in
places. But he does have snappy dialogue and Crush moved quickly
and was metaphorically lush just as Bargaining was. Sleeper also
had some brillant scenes - but since it was co-written we don't
know what they were. Primeval from Season 4, may be one of Fury's
better accomplishments - he not only found a way to write out
of the corner Petrie put him in Yoko Factor with the split of
the SG but he referenced Promothea comics for a solution to the
Adam problem and come up with the brillant uber -slayer idea which
moved well into Joss Whedon's Restless vision.
Jane Espenson - the best comedy writer on the series. Unlike Fury
- her wit tends to be more absurdist and not so off-colour. She
makes fun of the situations we find ourselves in. In her article
on the Firefly site - she states that when writing an episode
she hunts for the emotional center of a character - their emotional
arc.
Where are they at the start of the episode and where will they
be at the end of it? In CwDP - her character was Buffy - who was
feeling ambivalent about slaying vampires by the end of the episode
that ambivalence is changing, she's beginning to see why slaying
vamps is important - an arc that continues through Never LEave
Me. Jane unlike Fury is a team player - better at collaborative
writing and enjoys it - probably the reason she's done the most
collaborations: Doomed, Flooded, Life Serial, CwDP, Sleeper, to
name a few. According to the Succubus Club interviews last year
- Fury tends to fight with Whedon and company over character arcs
more - Jane trusts Whedon and goes along with him. Also unlike
some of the other writers - Jane has no interest in directing
- she is first and foremost a writer - as she states in the Buffy
Magazine Yearbook interview.
Here's a rundown of some of her episodes:
Sleeper - cowrote with Fury
Same Time Same Place
Afterlife
Flooded - co-wrote with Doug Petrie
Life Serial - the poker game and the mummy's hand (my two favorite
sections - Fury did the Xander construction scene)
DoubleMeat Palace
I was Made to Love You
Intervention
in Ats she wrote the brillant: Room With A View
and in Firefly she wrote : Shindig (the one with the duel)
Jane goes for the romance and the comedy in the personal relationships.
Her comedic rendering of Spike and the Buffybot - is controversial
among fans, some of us, myself included, thought it was wonderful
others were offended - that's the nature of comedy writing. Her
strength is finding the comedy in absurdity - she does it with
the vamp psychologist scene in CWDP and she does it with the Cordelia's
fury at having to fight a ghost to get an apartment in Room With
a View. At times her absurdity can feel jarring or offensive as
it did in DMP which some viewers call anti-grav Buffy or STSP
which offended some people with posable Dawn. But generally forcing
us to laugh at the oddities in life is her strength and remphasizes
the foibles of our favorite characters in a fun way.
If you want to continue doing this - The other writers to discuss
are as follows:
The plotters: Doug Petrie and Drew Goddard
Doug Petrie - Fool For Love, Beneath You, Two to Go,
As You Were (he also directed), Flooded (co-wrote),
Weight of The World,
Drew Goddard - Selfless, Conversations with Dead People (co-wrote
with Jane Espenson with tweaking by Joss Whedon), Never LEave
Me
The emotional base: Marti Noxon and Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Marti Noxon - The Wish, Into the Woods, Bargaining Part I, Wrecked
(which she may have also directed), Villains (also possibly directed?),
co-wrote portions of Primeval (the scene down the elevator shaft
between Buffy and Willow), Forever. buffy vs. Dracula
Rebecca Rand Kirshner - Tabula Rasa, Help, Hell's Bells,
(and others can't think of off-hand)
Wild Cards: Stephen DeKnight and Drew Greenberg
Stephen Deknight - Dead Things, Spiral, Seeing Red
Apocalypse NoWish, Deep Down
Drew Greenberg - Smashed, HIM, Older and Far Away (which he may
have also co-directed), and others can't remember
Tracey Forbes - Something Blue, Where the wild things are (no
longer with ME after Season 4)
The creators: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear and David Greenwalt
Whedon - Welcome to the Hellmouth and the Harvest with david Greenwalt,
The Body, Family, Hush, Restless, the last scene on the bluff
in Grave, OMWF, Lessons, Dopplegangerland, The Gift, (Whedon directs
most of his episodes) City of Lights, Waiting in The Wings
and the other Angel writers if you wish.
Anyways I've burnt myself out for now...discuss have fun.
and my back is killing me. Off to lunch. Will return later.
Sorry for the haphazard post - not proofread, or really thought
out - so be kind. Just playing for a change.
SK
[> Writer Profile: Marti
Noxon (reposting) -- cjl, 10:34:04 12/06/02 Fri
Subject: Marti Noxon
Current Jobs: Running BtVS; staff writer; new mommy
Nickname: Relationship Girl
Dark Side: Mistress of Pain
First Solo Script: What's My Line (Part II)
Highlights: Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered; The Prom; The
Wish
Lowlights: Wrecked
Upcoming Scripts: Bring on the Night (with D. Petrie) and Buffy
7.21 (yet untitled)
Ever since she first came on board, Marti has been credited (by
Joss himself) with infusing the series' vamps with a darker, kinkier
sexuality than previously imagined, a subtext
gleefully appropriated by Joss and the rest of the boys. (Thanks,
Marti!)
Marti has a knack for writing life crises and life passages, specializing
(naturally) in relationship flame-outs. But for all her rep as
relationship girl, I think some of her best work
was in WML, with Buffy debating with herself about whether she
can have any sort of future beyond slaying, and the amazing Class
Protector scene in the Prom, when Jonathan
(how appropriate) gave Buffy one of the sweetest memories of her
life. (Sniff. Excuse me, I've got something in my eye...)
OTOH, she is damn good with the relationship stuff, and don't
you forget it. No matter what you might think about Buffy's run
to the helicopter in "Into the Woods," Xander's
impassioned speech to Anya right after it begged for genuflection.
(She's always hit the right notes with Xander, from the X/C eruption
in WML, to the pitch-perfect farce in
BB&B, all the way to the chilling "blood on my hands"
speech in "Villains.") I loved the crowning moments
of B/A angst in "The Prom," and she tore my heart out
when Oz
and Willow split in BOTH "Wild at Heart" and "New
Moon Rising."
Weakenesses: OK, with all the attention Marti lavishes on emotional
arcs, sometimes the plot itself suffers a bit. Tucker's pack of
devil dogs in "The Prom" didn't make much of
an impression, and there were holes in "Villains" you
could drive an eighteen-wheel semi through. (Granted, she's done
high-concept stories like The Wish and BB&B that
moved along like a bullet train; but those are more exceptions
than the rule.)
And then there's Riley--to which I will add no more.
Overall, Marti took the series in directions Joss himself wouldn't
have considered. She created Anya (we should be grateful for that
alone), VampWillow and pretty much paved
the way for GayNow!Willow. An indispensible writer and a chief
architect of the Buffyverse, I can't wait to see what she's got
waiting for us in 12 days...
[> [> Oooh! Marti wrote
the next ep? Now I'm even more excited! -- Rob, Marti groupie,
11:23:57 12/06/02 Fri
[> [> Writer Profile:
Stephen DeKnight. -- shambleau, 12:10:22 12/06/02 Fri
He's excellent at making radical shifts in tone during a scene.
Witness Dead Things, where a viewer is smiling at the humor of
the Trio fantasizing and trying to pick a girl, starts getting
queasy about where this is going, is nodding in approval at their
serio-comic comeuppance and then gets hit with a murder.
You can see this skill at work in Seeing Red in the bathroom attempted
rape scene and in the conversation between Xander and Buffy in
her back yard. You can see it in the scene in Blood Ties where
Dawn cuts her arm.
He's not great at humor and lots of All The Way falls flat because
of this. The scen with Pirate Xander and the confrontation at
Make Out Lane are especially weak.
I don't think he's especially in sync with Xander, but I think
he does Dawn and Spike well.
He's good at showing the chaos in an action scene. Spiral isn't
great, but those scenes when they're under attack are primo.
All in all, a damn good writer. I miss him on Buffy.
[> [> [> Can't agree
about "Spiral" not being a great episode. It's one of
my faves. -- Rob, 15:18:09 12/06/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> Agree,
Spiral IS great, definitely one of my top 10 -- Rook, 17:21:24
12/06/02 Fri
[> League table -- Tchaikovsky,
10:39:25 12/06/02 Fri
Just out of sheer controversy- and in my need to escape from my
long, scary philosophy post from earlier- here's a league table
of Buffy writers.
1. Joss Whedon (well, obviously)
2. Doug Petrie (I kind of like his offerings- even The Weight
of the World, and obviously Fool For Love)
3. Jane Espenson (funniest although sometimes I think her filler
episodes concentrate a little too much on the matter in hand,
at the expense of character development).
4. Marti Noxon. Queen of pain. She just does episodes like 'Wild
at Heart' and 'The Prom' like no-one else could. I think she flounders
in consistently cheery episodes, ('Bad Eggs') but is good at the
odd bit of humour.
5. Steven DeKnight Actually had a pretty unblemished record well
working for Buffy, with the interesting 'Blood Ties', 'Dead Things'
and 'Seeing Red'.
6. Drew Greenberg. Yet to know
7. David Fury. Really not a fan.
Haven't seen Season Seven, so don't know about Drew Goddard, although
the scripts I've read have been superlative. Don't feel qualified
to comment on Angel writers.
TCH
[> David Greenwalt is credited
for "Teacher's Pet" -- skyMatrix, 16:04:42 12/06/02
Fri
I'm pretty certain that the first ep David Fury did was "Go
Fish," co-written with Erin Hampton whom I read is/was his
girlfriend or something. After that, the next one he did was "Helpless."
Just a clarification!
Carl
[> [> Thanks more analysis
on Fury -- shadowkat, 19:49:08 12/06/02 Fri
Thanks...I couldn't remember. Interesting.
Go Fish works better with his style - which is uncomfortable sexual
situations explored with humor.
In Go Fish - we have two such scenerios - Xanders nudity in the
speedo and his discomfort and the women being turned on by him.
This is later echoed in Gone with Spike's nudity.
We also have the possibility of date rape with the guy in the
car which Buffy breaks the nose of and later the guys who've been
turned into monsterous fish threaten to gang rape Buffy in the
sea below. "anything for my boys" screams the evil coach.
Buffy says half-quippy - "as if my reputation isn't bad enough
- to have done it with the whole swim team".
Helpless also explores the predatory male - with Giles who drugs
Buffy and of course the little red riding hood story of the big
bad wolf threatening to sire Buffy so she can eat her mother -
a reverse Oedipus scenerio or better yet Electra.
Fury's scripts tend to specialize on male threats - or the beast
within the man.
Go Fish
Crush
Gone - man as sex object or man using large gun to dematerialize
girl
Helpless
Bargaining PArt II - the demon bikers who not only threaten to
rape the women but literally disember the buffbot
Fury explores these dark themes with a mixture of humor and at
times obvious metaphor. Helpless, one of my favorite episodes
metaphorically, also tends to be a bit heavy handed at times.
I think Fury tends to be a little less ambiguous in his writing
- feels more a need to tell than show, unlike Whedon who excels
at showing and ambiguity.
OTOH Fury does provide rare and interesting insights into the
characters - the moment in Helpless where Buffy realizes Giles
has betrayed her and of course Giles' epiphany that he regrets
it. Also the whole red riding hood motif.
Fury's Primeval commentary - which Dochawk was kind enough to
send me is really quite wonderful and humorous in places.
And having just rewatched Gone? I have to say I appreciate the
chemistry of the early scenes between Spike and Buffy and Fury's
decision to make Spike the sex object in the piece.
[> Re: Different Writing
Styles of ME Writers on BTVS and ATS -- slain, 17:14:42
12/06/02 Fri
I think I agree with much of the assessment of the writers here.
If we're talking league tables of the longer term writers, mine
would be:
1. Joss Whedon
2. Marti Noxon ~ Jane Espenson
4. David Greenwalt
5. Doug Petrie
6. Rebecca Rand Kirshner ~ Steven S. DeKnight
8. David Fury
I admit ever since I heard his whining commentary on 'Helpless'
I've disliked David Fury, but while I do think he's patchy, he's
still a fairly solid writer, and hasn't written any [by Buffy
standards] bad episodes in the way that in my opinion Marti
Noxon has. Fury plods along and does his job, and is occassionally
brilliant, but for me Greenwalt and Noxon both brought new things
to the show.
[> On Fury -- Rook,
19:40:04 12/06/02 Fri
IMO, Fury is butt-monkey of ME writers: he gets handed a lot of
crap jobs, and somehow manages to make the best of them.
One of the episodes he wrote that you didn't mention is The Real
Me...probably one of the most difficult "sells" on the
series, retconning Dawn as seamlessly as possible into the Scoob's
life, and IMO he manages to pull it off brilliantly. By the end
of the episode, regardless of what you "know" is true,
it's very difficult to believe that Dawn isn't really Buffy's
annoying kid sister and hasn't been there all along.
Other tough jobs he's had to pull off:
- Developing a realistic scene for Willow to choose to stay in
Sunnydale in Choices.
- Transitioning the BB in S4 from Walsh to adam when Lindsay Crouse
decided to leave the show. For the 10 seconds that Fury has him
at the end of TIIT, Adam is more interesting, mencacing and vicious
than at any other point in the season, up until Primeval.
- As you mentioned, writing himself out of a corner in Primeval
- Handling a multitude of scenes that in most people's hands would
have turned into sappy movie-of-the-week moments: The revelation
of Spike's crush to Buffy, the Father/daughter stuff in Helpless,
the revelation of Joyce's tumor, and Xander talking Dark!Willow
down in Grave..though the last one barely resists being total
glurge, IMO Fury's the only reason it managed to maintain even
a sembelance of integrity. Fury is the guy that, along with JW,
handles some of Buffy's big emotional moments in a way that allows
her to maintain a very traditional heroic presence that many other
writers can't seem to manage.
Fury is, IMO, the go-to guy on the writing staff of BtVS. He may
not be the most awe-inspiring writer, but when the situation calls
for it, the guy definitely knows how to pull the rabbits out of
the hat.
[> [> Re: On Fury
-- shadowkat, 19:54:38 12/06/02 Fri
Actually some of the scenes you credit Fury with - he didn't write,
Joss or Marti did. Fury admits on Primeval commentary that he
doesn't do the emotional/relationship content well - he's more
of a comedy writer/action guy so Marti tackled it. In Grave the
scene you love so much between Xander and Willow was in fact written
by Joss Whedon. I'm not sure about some of the scenes in Helpless.
Also I believe some of the scenes in Crush were handled by other
writers.
I think David Fury's true strength lies in handling uncomfortable
humor moments and as you said writing other writers out of corners.
He's still not one of my favorites.
But I prefer him to Aaron Sorkin and David E. Kelly any day of
the week. And those guys are supposedly the darlings of the TV
world.
[> [> [> Never understood
why people don't love "Primevil" -- cjl, 20:00:36
12/06/02 Fri
Yes, Marc Blucas spends 80% of the episode digging a piece of
metal out of his chest, but otherwise it's wall-to-wall wonderfulness.
You've got the group hug at the bottom of the elevator shaft,
the Uberbuffy, Spike at his two-faced worst, and all that glorious,
wide-screen violence as the Initiative is torn to bitty pieces.
In fact, I've kind of missed that sort of epic violence from the
last two finales. I hope in 7.22 we see another battle royale,
with dozens of extras, a roaring inferno, bloodshed, shrieking,
bunnies--you know, the whole works...
[> [> [> [> Wait
a minute here, I loved Primevil....and Riley -- Rufus, 02:29:28
12/07/02 Sat
Spent only about 8% of the show actually digging out that chip
the rest was devoted to meaningful movements of his eyes, of course
that's before the chip came out, then he got to blow up his former
friend.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Never understood why people don't love "Primevil"
-- slain, 07:11:20 12/07/02 Sat
I was under the impression most people liked Primevil (I'm sure
I should be putting an 'a' in there somewhere), but that many
people didn't like at rest of the Initiative arc. But then again
I don't pay much attention to the 'majority view'.
[> [> [> [> I didn't
love Primeval because... -- Q, 12:32:11 12/07/02 Sat
You said it best:
Yes, Marc Blucas spends 80% of the episode digging a piece of
metal out of his chest
I could not get over the ridiculousness of this. The rest of the
ep may have been good or even great, but the bad taste this left
in my mouth forces it down to mediocre to kinda good. Definately
not love.
If we are to believe that, even though the chip prevented him
from standing up or exhibiting any bodily control at all, he was
able to FIND that thing in there-- We still have to believe that
he would ONLY bleed enough to put a small stain on his shirt,
and not enough to make him weak, so that he could fight and defeat
uber Forest et al.
It was too much for me to swallow. If they could have written
a mystical or supernatural excuse for it, maybe, but as it stood,
it was campy melodrama at best.
Besides, I was SO uninterested in the over all villains that year.
I just wanted it to end so they could start fresh with season
5. Adam was so boring and ridiculous! So was the ENTIRE Initiative,
including Riley, Forest, AND Prof. Walsh. I could NOT bring myself
to be invested in the characters, so the finale was very flat
to me.
Just thought I would answer why at least one fan didn't LOVE Primeval.
[> [> [> [> [>
Well said. And I'm not disagreeing with you about the absurdity
of Riley's "role" in 4.21... -- cjl, 14:31:40
12/07/02 Sat
It's just that Riley's exercise in self-styled exploratory surgery
didn't ruin the rest of the ep for me, as it obviously did for
you.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Well said. And I'm not disagreeing with you about
the absurdity of Riley's "role" in 4.21... -- Miss
Edith, 14:47:35 12/07/02 Sat
I actually found Riley's digging the chip out humerous. Okay it
was unintententional comedy but still very funny to me nevertheless.
I couldn't stop laughing when Buffy was trying to speak to Riley
and his jaw kept clenching as he tried to speak. But then I was
ROTFLMAO during Grave when Buffy was giving Dawn the speech about
showing her the world and then took her wondering amongst the
flowers so I do tend to find a lot of episodes funny even when
not intended as such.
And I thought Primevil was a great way to kill off Adam who I
never really cared for. I loved UberBuffy "You can never
hope to grasp the source of our power".
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I didn't think it was so much absurd as "Ewwww!"
whether it was realistic or not. -- Rob, suspending his disbelief
even as we speak!, 15:51:24 12/07/02 Sat
[> [> "Real Me"
is definitely my favorite Fury ep. -- Rob, 20:49:34 12/06/02
Fri
[> [> Re: On Fury
-- slain, 07:23:03 12/07/02 Sat
That's how I feel about Fury - I'm not going to praise him much,
because he doesn't often impress me. But he's always a solid writer
who moves the plot along in a satisfactory way. I think the reason
some fans dislike him isn't because of his episodes, which always
stick to the JW vision, much like Jane Espenson's do, but because
of his interviews and opinions, which almost invariably throw
a misleading light on his work; he'll write an episode which appears
to be in character and fit with the arcs and everything, then
make some comments which imply that he has very different ideas.
Perhaps it's just selective memory brought on by the fact that
there's always got to be someone who's not so great; when
I think of Jane Espenson, I think of 'Band Candy' or the second
half of 'Life Serial'. When I think of Fury I think of the things
he's said, but forget he wrote 'Real Me', 'Primevil', 'Spiral'
and half of the season 6 finale.
[> [> [> Re: On Fury
- complete listing of his works might help -- shadowkat, 07:58:44
12/07/02 Sat
Here's a listing of Btvs and ATs scripts Fury wrote:
Go Fish
Helpless
Choices
Fear, Itself
Doomed (co-wrote with Noxon and Espenson)
The I in Team
Primeval
Real Me
Shadow
Crush
Bargaining Part II
Life Serial with Espenson
Gone (directed as well)
Grave
Sleeper with Jane Espenson
Slatted to write Episode 11 of Season 7
Ats
Lonely Heart
Parting Gifts with Jenine Renshaw
Disharmony
The Price
The House Always Wins
Slatted to write Episode 13 of Season 4
Fury hasn't written the number of episodes Espenson has. He tended
to do more on production end. He has written a few of my favorites:
Crush, Fear, Itself, sleeper, and The Price. But he also lacks
some of the subtelty of the other writers.
[> [> [> [> Re:
On Fury - complete listing of his works might help -- Miss
Edith, 11:23:08 12/07/02 Sat
Fear Itself, The Real Me, Crush and Disharmony would be my favourite
David Fury episodes as I loved them all.
Episiodes of his that I liked include Helpless, Choices, Primeval
(although I have to say the directing was what really grabbed
me in that episode), Bargaining part 2 and Life Serial.
I don't think he is a bad writer at all but from what I have heard
of his interviews he does not think quite as deeply about complex
issues as the other writers do. E.g when asked about Anya he decided
she had lacked a soul as a vengeance demon, gained one as a human
and lost her soul again in the final when a demon again. We see
the show in very different ways so I could never call him a favourite
writer but he can produce the occasional brilliant comedy epiosde.
My overall favourite of his has to be The Real Me.
[> [> [> [> [>
The (In)compleat David Fury -- cjl, 15:47:08 12/07/02
Sat
Commentary on my favorite and least favorite Fury eps:
Go Fish - Fury's debut, and a delicious block of cheese it is.
Ignore the pseudo-"X-Files" plot and concentrate on
the character bits: Xander in the Speedo and the girls' reaction
(not to mention his rants on the jock-ocracy); Buffy, provocative
clothing, and "asking for it"; Cordelia's touching speech
to "fish-guy" Xander; Angelus spitting out the steroid-infused
blood; and the opening scene on the beach. Extra bonus points
for the first view of Jonathan's dark side (lame though it was
back then)...
Helpless - Fury's best episode, bar none. The scenes between Giles
and Buffy are the best between Gellar and Head in the series,
with the exception of Innocence. And Kralik? Creeeeepy. (Jeff
Kober was so good at being evil they brought him back as Rack.)
Love it at the end when Xander simply can't wrap his brain around
the thought that Giles was fired. Bonus points for introducing
Quentin Travers--the start of a long, unfulfilling relationship
with our heroine.
Fear, Itself - Fun, but also a portent of things that would come
back to haunt the Scoobs in Season 6. Willow's rant about not
being Buffy's sidekick finally came to fruition in "Two to
Go"; Xander's fear of his own insignificance was brought
to a head and resolved in "Grave"; and Fury loved the
"grabby hands" sequence in Buffy's trip to the basement
so much, he used it in "Grave"--and AGAIN in "Sleeper"!
(Those Californians...always with the recycling.) A superb scare
ride on a level with the best horror eps of the series. Bonus
points for the ending: "Actual size."
Doomed (co-wrote with Noxon and Espenson) - Did. Not. Work.
Primevil - See my comments, above.
Real Me - Fury did a remarkable job establishing Dawn's voice,
and I wish the other writers would reference this episode.
Choices/Crush - See Shadowkat's comments, above.
Life Serial/Gone/Grave - I hate to say it, but Fury crapped out
in Season 6. The lecture on social construction of reality was
the best part of his work on "Life Serial," but everything
else fell flat. It's no coincidence that the episode immediately
picks up steam when Espenson takes over. Ouch. "Gone"
is almost a complete waste of time, with the exception of Willow
channeling Nancy Drew and Doris' floating coffee cup. (Although
I do give Fury credit for "arch nemisises." Cute.) Don't
even talk to me about the Spuffy scenes. Additional points deducted
for Non-supportive!Xander and Clueless!Xander. Nic Brendon had
a good case for defamation of character. "Grave" was
sluggishly paced, and the dialogue seemed stilted. Emma's performance
almost saved it single-handedly--but not quite. Can't blame Fury
for the "yellow crayon" speech (that was Joss), but
that didn't help either.
ANGEL
Parting Gifts - A wonderful introduction to the new Wesley Wyndham
Price, even though he turns out to be the old Wesley Wyndham-Price.
The phrase "rogue demon hunter" and the eternal question,
"what's a rogue demon?" enter the Buffy/Angel lexicon.
Excellent job conveying the pain over Doyle's death, and the slow
process of moving on. Subtler than usual for Fury, and it's a
marked improvement over Lonely Hearts.
Disharmony - Fury's funniest episode, and the best Harmony ep
EVER. I can't even begin to list the good stuff: Cordelia's phone
call to Willow; Gunn's exasperated reaction to Harmony's continued
survival and Wes' reaction to her gum chewing; the Vampire Amway
guru; and Harmony's inevitable betrayal and descent into psychobabble.
Slight deduction for non-stake-age at the end, but I'll let it
pass. Harm should come back on AtS ONLY.
ANGEL 4.13 - I've got a huge mother of a spoiler on this ep that
I simply will not reveal to this board, because I regret hearing
it myself. All I'm saying here is: the events are so horrifying
and angst-inducing, this episode is almost can't-miss classic
ANGEL. If Fury blows this one, I'm never going to forgive him.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I've heard that spoiler...(the spoiler is not revealed
in this post, so anyone can read!) -- Rob, 15:57:52 12/07/02
Sat
...and I literally burst out with "Holy F*&@! S&#@
when I heard it. And I'm not a big curser! I wish I hadn't heard
about it earlier either because I like surprises (I stumbled upon
it by accident), but this sounds like it's going to be amazing...and
of course, gutwrenchingly angsty...or it better be! Or I won't
forgive him either!
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> So is the spoiler in cjl's post, then? -- slain,
17:15:00 12/07/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: No the spoiler isn't mentioned --
Miss Edith, 18:28:20 12/07/02 Sat
cji just refers to hearing a spoiler for Angel which shocked him/her?
No details given though.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> No, it's not. It's so freakin' huge, I refuse to
ruin it for everybody else. -- cjl, 18:29:14 12/07/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: No, it's not. It's so freakin' huge,
I refuse to ruin it for everybody else. -- slain, 18:49:49
12/07/02 Sat
Let me guess, Angel turns out to be Clem's long lost brother after
he suddenly develops a strange skin condition, and then Clem has
sex with, um, Wesley and then everyone dies?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Damn! You guessed it! -- Wisewoman,
13:39:28 12/08/02 Sun
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Agree and Disagree with parts of this -- shadowkat,
21:37:43 12/07/02 Sat
I agree on Helpless, Life Serial, Grave and The Real Me.
Also Agree on DisHarmony - it was the best centered Harmony episode
- and it's no coincidence that Fury did the other two good Harmony
episodes in the shows - Crush and The Real Me. (Although I didn't
mind her in Fool For Love).
I think I like Fury's Angel episodes better than his Btvs episodes.
Get Fury to Ats stat!! Oh wait...he's there.
Sorry.
Disagree in part on Doomed and Gone.
Doomed had some wonderful moments - now who should be credited
for them? No clue. But the moment where Spike tries to commit
suicide and his interactions with Xander and Willow were highlights
in the show. And who can hate Spike's rant at the end? "Come
on let's go kill some vampires! Grr-Argh! Do you need your Buffy?
..."
The moments without Buffy, Giles, Riley were the best.
And oh Spike's line: "I'm a friend of Xanderrrs" in
Marsters mock British take on an American accent. That worked.
What did not work? The plot. Revisiting the school to save the
day again. The Riley/Buffy discussion about what each did? Could
have been better I guess - the episode did come right after Hush
after all, had a bit to live up too. I did however enjoy the line:
"I'm a capricorn with my moon in aquarius what about you?"
and "What? Surely you've heard of me. I'm the Slayer."
"Look it up. Slayer, The."
So the episode may have had a lame plot, lame monsters, etc. But
terrific lines. There's also Willow's struggle with the whole
geekdom. "Hey I dated a musician."
So - actually all in all? I preferred Doomed to Go Fish on the
lines alone.
Gone - the best part of Gone were the opening scenes in the kitchen
with Spike and Buffy. The worst part actually was Nancy Drew Willow.
That made 0 sense. Can you explain how Willow managed to find
and scrap black paint off of an invisible fire hydrant?? And figure
out that the black paint off the invisible fire hydrant fit the
tire mark?? I rewatched it again and I still don't get how she
figured out where that paint was without seeing the hydrant. (Are
we sure she did it without magic??) And gee - how'd she narrow
down who the van belonged to? And so quickly? There must be at
least 100 black vans. Buffy never gave them a clear description
of the van. They didn't have a license plate. Willow's detective
work defied logic, particularly considering she was apparently
going through withdrawl at the time. The scene in the crypt also
worked better - and not the one between Xander and Spike - which
made little sense. The one between Buffy and Spike - that worked,
her desire to be free of life. His desire to have her. What did
not work - was why the heck was Xander visiting Spike to find
Buffy? Well, okay that makes some sense...but why didn't he figure
out Buffy was there? It was pretty obvious.
Although OTOH - it was ironically humorous considering Xander
finally got his wish after seeing Spike and Buffy kiss in Something
Blue and do it clothed in Intervention - he's finally been rendered
death, blind and dumb.
The doris kroger scene? ugh. no comment ;-)
Outside of that, pretty much agree on all points.
Oh Choices - I didn't really cover. It's a spooky episode.
I personally could have done without the Spiders. But it does
have some of the best Willow/Faith and Buffy/Angel/Mayor moments.
Gripping throughout. Moves Willow's interest in magic forward
as well as inserts more cracks in the Buffy/Angel relationship
without hurting the characters in the process.
Favorite sections of it: Xander's line when the spiders get out
of the box and disappear: "Where did it go? I want to know
where it went." Me too Xander - right there with you.
And Snyder's line:"Why can't you kids do drugs like everyone
else?" I miss Snyder. Also loved the scene between Willow
and Faith at the Mayor's quarters.
Still think the best written episodes are: Crush,
Choices, Disharmony and PArting Gifts.
The worste: Go Fish (sorry can't like that episode, it makes me
cringe in embarrassment for Xander), first two sections of Life
Serial, and Gone.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I liked Willow's Nancy Drew phase because it reminded
me of S1 Willow... -- cjl, 07:05:30 12/08/02 Sun
We'd just been smacked in the face with the whole magic addiction
metaphor, and I was feeling nostalgic for the Willow I loved from
S1. And in some ways, "Gone" took Willow back to the
beginning: no magic, just her big, squishy frontal lobe and a
computer. I felt comforted.
And you're right about "Doomed." Plot was hopeless,
but Spike's moments--the attempted suicide, his final pep talk
to the gang, that Hawaiian shirt (my eyes! my eyes!)--were very
funny.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Agree and Disagree with parts of this --
slain, 07:06:09 12/08/02 Sun
I quite liked 'Gone'. And 'Go Fish'. Actually, all of them. I
think I'm turning into Rob. ;)
Really I do like all of David Fury's episodes - certainly they're
all good Buffy episodes, though most of them unexceptional. He
can't do consistent funny like Jane Espenson, Joss or Rebbecca
Rand Kirshner can, so often some of his comedy falls flat ('Disharmony'
being a notable exception), but he regularly has really inspired
moments like Spike's fighting the forces of darkness, "for
puppies... and Christmas" line. 'Helpless' is not one of
my favourite of episodes, a few Buffy and Giles scenes aside (and
the Buffy/Angel scene was written by Joss in its entirety, because
Fury acknowledges he can't write that kind of scene - though Buffy
pretenting to stake Angel with a baguette was Fury's idea), but
I found 'Grave' to be very powerful, if not exactly the season
ending I wanted.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> The fire hydrant -- Darby, 08:03:01 12/08/02
Sun
Assume that flecks of black paint were hanging in the air, scraped
off on an invisible hydrant (and hence having hit it after its
invisibility). But it took some work to figure that out - it didn't
make sense to me, either. Angle of the tire marks maybe connected
the two? And, easier to hit an invisible hydrant (but why wasn't
there a hole in the sidewalk for the hydrant base / pipes?).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: The fire hydrant -- shadowkat, 08:21:46
12/08/02 Sun
"Assume that flecks of black paint were hanging in the air,
scraped off on an invisible hydrant (and hence having hit it after
its invisibility)."
Thanks! finally someone answers that nagging question.
"And, easier to hit an invisible hydrant (but why wasn't
there a hole in the sidewalk for the hydrant base / pipes?)."
Wondered the same.
Also how in the heck did Buffy find her invisible cloths in Spike's
less than immaculate crypt? I mean she obviously did.
And how do you trace a van based just on black paint?
(sigh) Still not convinced Will didn't use a spot of magic on
this one. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: The fire hydrant -- Rook, 18:48:39
12/09/02 Mon
As far as finding the clothes go, it's actually not that hard
to find your clothes in a dark, unfamiliar room, as long as you
have at least some idea of where you were standing when they came
off.
And, no, I'm not saying how I know this!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Add me to the loved "Primeval" side....
-- Briar Rose (having keyboard blindness....), 01:57:54 12/09/02
Mon
Actually - I have to admit that there are very few eps
that I have not loved in the series (most of "the
Initiative" eccentric story lines fall in that catagory)
and since I've only missed two eps out of 7 seasons, that's saying
something!*LOL)
I loved "Primeval" for the wonderful effects and story
line. I will say that it wasn't one of Marc Blucas' best performances,
but it was pretty unrealistic to think any actor could aptly portray
that type of self injury without it being a stretch...
What it did for me, was show the mystical side of the Slayer and
her world in a way that hadn't been done up to that point, IMO.
Especially since it used the two most common theologies of magickal
tradition: Love is the Greatest Power and All Is Energy. Energy
can be bent, transformed and redirected. It can also be shared,
and most often shared through love.
It also opened up the ports for "Restless" wonderfully.
And IMO - Restless was the definitive about the Power of the
Slayer eppy.
[> [> Re: On Fury
-- Rattletrap, 08:39:22 12/07/02 Sat
"Workmanlike" might be the word I'd use to describe
a Fury episode. I have never understood the vitriol directed at
him by some of the fans. His episodes are never the high-minded
artistic achievements that Joss can produce, but they don't attempt
to do that. His episodes can always be counted on to deliver a
solid story, some good action moments, and some funny bits. This,
in my view, provides an essential counterweight to the really
character drama, releationship-heavy episodes of someone like
Marti Noxon.
One episode of Fury's that's merited very little discussion in
this thread is "Choices," thought it has always been
one of my favorites from S3--a wonderfully written blend of the
action, drama, and comedy that make BtVS work.
Fury's strong points come through particularly in S6--notice the
subtle difference in the way he handles writing the trio. They
seem much more three dimensional, much more real, and a bit less
embarrassingly pathetic in his hands than in those of nearly all
the other writers. I think, partly, because he is writing about
himself--a self-proclaimed sci-fi/comic book nerd--he treats these
characters with the appropriate respect.
Just my $.02
'trap
[> Re: One thing Fury did
well -- Philistine, 20:26:57 12/06/02 Fri
The chaotic battle through Initiative HQ in Fury's Primeval was
very good. Much better than the fight vs the Mayor and
his minions in Graduation Day P2.
[> Am I the only one who
has trouble differentiating from Jane Espenson and Rebecca Rand
Kirshner? -- Rob, 20:44:59 12/06/02 Fri
They both have similar styles, with a focus on unusual, wacky
situations and comedy. But are there any significant differences
between the two's writing styles? Because I always find myself
thinking that one of them wrote an episode, when the other one
did.
Rob
[> [> Re: Am I the only
one who has trouble differentiating from Jane Espenson and Rebecca
Rand Kirshner? -- shadowkat, 22:11:23 12/06/02 Fri
They do seem awfully similar, but Rebecca Rand Kirshner is a little
more into the emotional base and less abursdist.
She makes me think more of Marti.
Here's her episodes: (you made me pullout my Buffy YEarbook that
has complete rundown)
Out of My Mind
Listening to Fear
Tough Love
Tabula Rasa
Hells Bells
Help
Her first episode was Out of My Mind in Season 5, she clearly
replaced Tracy Forbes who left after Season 4.
Jane Espenson's work:
Band Candy
Gingerbread
Earshot
The Harsh Light of Day
Pangs
Doomed with David Fury and Marti Noxon
A New Man
Superstar
The Replacement
Triangle
Checkpoint with Doug Petrie
I was Made to Love You
Intervention
Afterlife
Flooded with doug petrie
Life Serial with David Fury (he did first two segments, she did
last two)
Doublemeat Palace
Same Time Same Place
Conversations with Dead People (with Goddard)
Sleeper (with Fury)
Now see I think you can see a clearer difference. Espenson tends
to do the Jonathan episodes. She also does a lot with Xander.
The difference is Espenson's humor tends to be more well subtle
at times and absurdist. Although Rand Kirshener is close in style,
there are differences I think. I can't see her doing something
as outlandish as Intervention.
Kirshner tends to pull back more.
Also the dream sequence in out of my mind? Rumor has it Whedon
wrote that not Kirshner.
I'm a huge Espenson fan. Very few of her episodes ring false for
me and her commentary on Superstar was fantastic.
I actually prefer her later work to Marti's, although Marti kicked
ass in Seasons 2 and 3. Here's Marti's episodes:
What's My Line Part I with Howard Gordon
What's My Line Part II
Bad Eggs
Surprise
Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered
I Only Have Eyes For You
Dead Man's Party
Beauty and The Beasts
The Wish
Consequences
The Prom
Living Conditions
Wild at Heart
Doomed (with Espenson and Fury)
Goodbye Iowa
New Moon Rising
Buffy vs. Dracula
Into the Woods
Forever
Bargaining Part I
Wrecked
Villains
Marti excels at pathos not humor, most of her episodes hit emotional
juglar and are quite dark. Some include favorities of mine. I
actually prefer her over Fury and Greenberg and Petrie in some
ways but that's silly to state since she will rewrite emotional
scenes in their work to strengthen it. She sets Whedon up numerous
times.
[> [> [> Thanks, that
does things up a lot! -- Rob, 23:03:05 12/06/02 Fri
I can definitely see the difference now that the episode list
is lined up like that! They're both wacky in certain ways, but
Jane Espenson is definitely wackier. And now I know that she's
the one I'm a bigger fan of! Except for Tabula Rasa, which really
was a masterpiece, IMO. I liked all of her other eps too, but
on the whole, I'm more of a JE fan. I love how she's able to have
quite a lot of outlandish, absurd ideas, but still, I think, keep
the stories grounded in the characters. I know some would argue
that some of her humor is at the expense of the characters, but
I really disagree. For example, in STSP, I really didn't quite
get why some people were so offended by "Posable!Dawn."
I thought that it was not only funny, but really showed off MT"s
comedic talents. Not to mention the fact that Dawn was quite brave
in that scene, both before and during she got hurt. And the fact
that Dawn was the one who figured out all the info on the Gnarl.
But anyhoo...
Re: Marti, although she is never gutbustingly funny, and is definitely
darker, I think she is sometimes good at dry humor. Usually not
laugh out loud funny, but a subtle laugh here and there. Like
Xander's "How come you never told us your girlfriend's Tinkerbell?"
line. I love that one!
On the whole, I think Marti may be the best character/emotional
writer on the show, besides Joss, although her plots are not always
as solidly constructed as they could be. The time frame in "Villains"
seemed to be very off, for example. But she has had some truly
almost perfect episodes, IMO, including my favorite of Season
2 ep, IOHEFY, BB&B, Surprise,The Wish, and some episodes that
range from very good to great, IMO: Beauty and the Beasts, Forever,
The Prom, Wild at Heart, Doomed, etc. Her only two that I would
rank as truly subpar are Bad Eggs and Wrecked.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Oof!
No verb! That should be "does CLEAR things up a bit."
-- Rob, 08:13:54 12/07/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
Oddly, in British English that would have made perfect sense
-- slain, 12:28:41 12/07/02 Sat
[> [> [> More on JE
-- ponygirl, 14:35:00 12/09/02 Mon
Jane Espenson seems very fond of reversals and role switching:
Band Candy, the adults becoming teens; A New Man, Giles becoming
a demon; Superstar, a classic JE episode, the dweeb becomes the
hero; and The Replacement, Xander split in two. Even her Tales
of the Slayer comic featured a woman pretending to be a man.
That her Tales contribution (the title escapes me) is a Jane Austen
homage which doesn't surprise me - Jane seems to have a sensibility
suited to the older, deader Jane, a wry appreciation of the restrictions
of manners and rules. Our Jane likes to turn the rules upside
down, however, and enjoy the comedy that results.
She also strikes me as the most small "r" romantic of
the BtVS bunch, not for her the grand dark passion that interests
Marti, but instead a genuine sympathy for all her characters and
lurking sense that she would like to see things work out for the
best. I always got the feeling that Jane would have liked to have
seen Giles and Joyce get together after Band Candy; you can feel
her heart breaking for the Aprilbot; and Jane is responsible for
the Spuffy paradises of Intervention and Afterlife. I'd be very
shocked if Jane ever ended up with an episode that featured a
character death or something really nasty. In fact the only time
she ever came close to a really dark episode was DMP. Despite
being very funny (to me at least) it had a real undercurrent of
despair, rather than emerging from the usual topsy turvy of her
episodes back to a relative normal, DMP leaves Buffy trapped in
her dead-end job. Maybe food services hurt her real bad once.
[> [> [> [> Ok
I just thought of some exceptions to what I just said -- ponygirl,
16:56:05 12/09/02 Mon
Jane E did kill Jonathon - it would be only fitting if it were
her and not Drew... and Gnarl feeding on Willow definitely qualifies
as nasty in my book. But I'll still go with saying that she is
a romantic at heart.
As for the numerous typos in my previous post, all I can say is
it's never good to cut and paste while talking on the phone.
[> [> [> [> [>
Goddard and Espenson in "Conversations with Dead People"
-- Finn Mac Cool, 18:01:43 12/09/02 Mon
Actually, Jane Espenson wrote the parts of "Conversations
with Dead People" where Buffy talked to the vampire. It was
Drew Goddard who wrote the other scenes.
[> Some brief thoughts on
AtS writers -- KdS, 05:32:31 12/07/02 Sat
The ones with the biggest resumes anyway. Note that I don't have
any sources regarding uncredited rewrites, so I'm open to contradiction.
David Greenwalt: tends to do the more serious plot turning points.
Particularly good at episodes where a particular character is
more than usually tested and has to reaffirm themselves: "Judgement",
"Happy Anniversary", "Dead End", "Heartthrob".
Absolute high points: "Billy", "Dead End",
"Sleep Tight". Low point: "I Fall To Pieces"
(with Joss Whedon).
Tim Minear: the Angelus of the LA scriptwriting community, and
that's meant to be a compliment. Set out his stall early by writing
a script for the second episode of S1 that was so twisted WB refused
to let it be produced (is it on the web anywhere?). I fall down
in worship before this man - he can do deep torture while hardly
ever falling into the sort of overt tearjerking that Noxon occasionally
slips into. Only done one outright comedy ("Sense and Sensibility",
which was pretty good) but capable of slipping in moments of humour
and warmth which are jet-propelled by the darkness round them.
High points: almost every episode, but especially "Hero"
(with Howard Gordon), "Are you now..." (still my all
time favourite Angel episode), "Darla", "Benediction".
"Through the Looking Glass" was solid rather than special,
but notably introduced all the more complex elements of the Pilea
sequence. Low points: "Couplet" was lightweight, "Somnambulist"
was arguably the real source for the vamp/serial killer parallels
that annoy so many posters here. Must be grossly over-critical
of himself if he thinks "That Old Gang of Mine" was
a failure, as suggested in DVD commentary.
Shawn Ryan: has to be credited for single-handedly turning Gunn
into a three-dimensional character in "First Impressions",
an excellent low-key episode that could so easily have degenerated
into embarrassing gangsta cliches. Continued the same path with
equally good characterisation and dialogue in "Thin Dead
Line". Is he/she actually from an inner-city background?
Did an excellent job of subtly setting up thematic drivers for
the end of S2 in "Belonging". Unfortunately seems not
to have stayed on for S3.
Mere Smith - seems to specialise in the more purely touchy-feely
"relationship" episodes and possibly underused for this
reason. Against this stereotyping, did a really good, savage job
of skewering Dark Avenger rhetoric in "Redefinition".
High points: "Untouched", "Redefinition".
The only worrying sign seems to be that two of the S3 new scriptwriters
produced fairly weak episodes - "Carpe Noctem" and "Provider"
by Scott Murphy and "Dad" and "Double or Quits"
by David H Goodman. Doesn't bode well for the future.
Another interesting sideline is the mixed fortunes of BtVS writers
on AtS. Joss Whedon has only reached the heights of his BtVS work
in "Sanctuary" (with Tim Minear), and achieved a joint
career nadir with Greenwalt in "I Fall to Pieces". David
Fury produced his best ever episode on either series in "Disharmony"
(a script probably driven by his displeasure at Spike's arc in
BtVS S5), but also his worst ever in "Lonely Hearts".
Marti Noxon fell flat on her face with "She". Only Jane
Espenson has kept up a really good standard on AtS, with "Rm
W/a Vu" and "Guise will be Guise".
[> [> Jeffrey Bell
-- shadowkat, 07:35:18 12/07/02 Sat
You've forgotten the wonderful Jeffrey Bell who juiced up the
series last year and this year with A New World and Forgiving
- yes Jeff Bell is responsible for the wonderful scene where Angel
almost kills Wesely. He also co-wrote Billy, one of my all time
favorities. Wrote Quickining where everyone goes after the pregnant
Darla and AI team.
That Vision Thing. And co-wrote Couplet with Tim Minear.
Jeffrey Bell took over the series after David Simikins and Greenwalt
left, according to rumor mill b/c Ats was getting way too dark.
Something that apparently doesn't both Bell.
Bell - I believe wrote Deep Down this year. Will have to go back
over the tape to be sure.
The writer is not only superb at plots - reminds me of Petrie
in this way, he also understands just how far to delve into characters
darkness.His scripts jump back and forth, always keeping us in
suspense with a nice little twist at the end. Bell reminds me
of Minear in this way.
I agree with you on Minear by the way. The only writer outside
of Joss Whedon who can direct an episode with panache, outside
of David Greenwalt. He directed A New World and Benediction. Except
he can go much darker.
Oddly enough I loved the Sonmabulist - even though it went into
"serial killer" territory - I thought it was where Angel
Season 1 finally began to take off, before that I wasn't sure
what to make of the series.
[> [> [> Didn't mention
Bell because he hadn't writtten so much... -- KdS, 08:26:04
12/07/02 Sat
But I agree with you about "Forgiving". Are you sure
he wrote "Billy"? My video packaging credits DG alone
for that episode.
Re Minear: Yes, "Somnambulist" is an excellent ep and
a real turning point in the series. Really, I just wanted to point
out that DF wasn't the only person responsible for the serial
killer trope after all the personal bashing he's been getting
lately.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Didn't mention Bell because he hadn't writtten so much...
-- shadowkat, 09:40:21 12/07/02 Sat
"Are you sure he wrote "Billy"? My video packaging
credits DG alone for that episode."
Guess it would depend on the source. This is mine: The Offical
Buffy Yearbook, published by Titan Magazine, 2002. The Complete
Angel Episode Guide by K. Stoddard Hayes.
I think I might have it on tape somewhere - if so I'll double
check the credits.
Bell appears to be a newer writer.
I think the reason David Fury gets credited with the serial killer
trope and gets so much flack is he keeps opening his mouth and
inserting his foot in online chats and interviews.
He and Marti are really really bad at giving fan interviews.
They need to take lessons from James Marsters, Jane Espenson and
Joss Whedon on how to do this well. I don't envy them - I'd be
bad at giving an online interview. This board is nice...the others
where the writers go? A little less so.
DF prior to Crush went on line with a bunch of shippers and announced
that they were having the hots for a serial killer. Not a good
idea. Then he went and inserted the line not once but twice in
Crush (one of my favorite episodes by the way - I voted for it
in the FX marathon), he also put it in Sleeper. Now he wasn't
around during the B/A cycle but something tells me that if he
said that about Angelus way back when he'd have gotten a similar
reaction. He's also used the line the most. I find Fury less subtle
in his delivery than Minear. Minear doesn't spell things out as
much, and Minear directs a dang good episode. Fury just doesn't
get the fact that sometimes less is more. Drew Goddard has a similar
problem - a little too explicit...needs to be a little more ambiguous.
Anyways the reason Fury gets a bad rap is he insults fans online,
and this unfortunately taints his work in the online fans opinion.
Personally? I try to ignore Fury's interviews. If I read them
out of stupid curiousity - I dismiss them as nonsense. His work
in my opinion is what is important not what he says in chatrooms
or online. And he has done some very good work - Crush, the Real
Me, Disharmony, Choices...are solid episodes.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Didn't mention Bell because he hadn't writtten so much...
-- Miss Edith, 12:15:42 12/07/02 Sat
David Fury isn't bashed so much for his episodes. It's the fact
that he sterotypes all Spike fans as shallow idiots. He told them
to write to their friendly serial killers in jail which is a shockingly
offensive comment. Real people have been affected by crimes such
as murder but they are also allowed to enjoy watching a fictional
character without moral judgements being made.
Also he seems to think he can keep Spike fans quiet as all they
are interested in is James's Marster's abs. He wrote Gone with
Spike thrusting against the bed and being thrown against the wall
with his shirt ripped open. The most gratitious use of an actors
body I have ever seen in Bts. He also wrote Grave with just two
or three minutes of Spike but believed he could keep the fans
happy by having a shirtless Spike. And in Sleeper Spike is seen
in bed in a revealing position with just a sheet draped over his
hip.
If a writer sees Spike fans as shallow idiots then they will critisise
him and that has coloured opinions of his episode Crush which
personally I loved. But he was definately not popular with most
Spike fans in season 5 as he wrote the most stalkerish scenes
such as Spike stealing Buffy's knickers in Shadow and chaining
up Buffy. If he bashes the fans and makes his contempt clear he
should expect them to pick apart his episodes and disagree with
the points he is making.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Didn't mention Bell because he hadn't writtten so much...
-- Doriander, 14:06:14 12/07/02 Sat
I donít approve of how Fury conducts himself in interviews,
however, I didnít get the impression that he thinks ALL
Spike fans are shallow idiots. He doesnít object to fans
loving the character, he objects to the desire for an S/B ship.
Just saying.
[> [> Re: Some brief
thoughts on AtS writers -- Rattletrap, 16:08:39 12/08/02
Sun
"Tim Minear: the Angelus of the LA scriptwriting community,
and that's meant to be a compliment. Set out his stall early by
writing a script for the second episode of S1 that was so twisted
WB refused to let it be produced (is it on the web anywhere?)."
I don't think so. I believe the episode in question was David
Fury's--"Corrupt" was the title if I remember right.
I read the script several years ago, it was extremely dark in
a disturbing Fury-esque way and I can kind of see why it didn't
make it on the air. That said, most of the substantive points
were put in the series elsewhere.
In my mind, Tim Minear deserves his greatest props for "Are
You Now or Have You Ever Been," with its brilliantly handled
parallel storylines.
Just my $.02
'trap
[> [> [> Yes...
-- KdS, 03:18:22 12/09/02 Mon
I found that mistake out the other day, but wasn't sure whether
to post, since the mere mention of a certain person seems to be
letting off land mines right now ;-)
[> Doug Petrie the great
plotter -- shadowkat, 08:17:50 12/07/02 Sat
I think after Joss Whedon and Tim Minear - Doug Petrie is among
one of my favorites. The man can write a tight script, flip characters
back and forth and creat suspense almost effortlessly. He also
has some of the best lines.
Like all the writers - he's had a few missteps, usually when he
directs - note to Whedon, don't let Petrie direct.
Here's a rundown of all of Petrie's episodes:
His first was Revealations in Season 3 Btvs
Bad Girls
Enemies
The Initiative
This Year's Girl
The Yoko Factor
No Place Like Home
Fool For Love
Checkpoint with Jane Espenson
The Weight of The World
Flooded with Espenson, also directed
As You Were - also directed
Two to Go
Beneath You
Slatted to co-write Episode 10 of Btvs with Marti Noxon
Ats
In the Dark
He's written less overall than Fury and Espenson have.
But his plotting and ability to build tension are evident in the
scripts. Also he writes some of the most memorable lines - Spike's
speech at the beginning of In the dark is a classic example. Also
the slow definition of Spike in Fool for Love and the mental breakdown
scene in Beneath You.
Missteps include As You Were and possibly The Weight of The World
which seemed sluggish at times. Outside of that?
He's written some complex and strong character arc episodes -
Bad Girls developed the Buffy/Faith relationship and took it to
a new dark level which he revisited in This Year's Girl. Yoko
Factor showed how easy it was to drift apart and the Iago manipulations
of Spike were deftly delivered. Two to Go had great pacing and
finally showed us the battle we'd been waiting for between Willow
and Buffy.
Tends to write more for Btvs than Ats, unlike Espenson and Noxon.
[> [> Re: Doug Petrie
the great plotter -- Miss Edith, 11:49:52 12/07/02 Sat
I think David Petire is a great writer. His biggest flaw IMO is
his misguided adoration of Riley. Now there is nothing wrong with
liking the character but I do feel he takes it a little too far
and loses his ability to be objective. His commentries are superb
but UK fans who have listened to his comments on Riley have been
known to mock them. In his commentry for The Iniative Riley's
relationship with Buffy was compared to Shakespeare's classic
comedies, and Doug also stated how Riley was like James Bond.
In fact he couldn't stop talking about what a good-looking guy
Riley was particularly at the end when he began talking of how
sexy Riley is when sweating. Marc Blucus got more more praise
devoted to him in the commentrie than the other actors put together.
Unfortunately that led to As You Were with the cannanisation of
Riley. All the other characters worshipping the guy and Buffy's
self esteem being improved by Riley. E.g when he sees her in bed
with Spike and tells Buffy (with a glance at Spike) that doesn't
touch her. Not to mention "Not advertising this to the missus
but you're still quite the hottie". The other characters
were written as incompatent idiots so Riley would appear even
more heroic as he flew off into the heavens.
I was not a fan of the episode and ironically owing to all the
plot holes and James playing Spike as confused regarding the demon
eggs a lot of fans were wondering if their was more to the story
and if Riley and Sam were evil and untrustworthy. I'm sure Doug's
commentry for the episode (I'm betting Doug will not pass up the
opportunity to comment on the episode) will clear that up as he
does literally drool over the character. I was beginning to see
Riley as interesting in season 5 but Doug does have a tendency
to write Riley as annoyingly perfect and patrionising. And some
of the speeches Doug gives Riley such as "I've never courted
anyone like Buffy before" to me don't come across as charming
as presumedly they were meant too.
Other than that Doug does write the characters really well with
believable flaws and virtues. I particularly enjoy his characterisation
of Faith and Spike. His commentry for FFL is excellent and very
enlightening.
[> [> [> Re: Doug
Petrie the great plotter -- shadowkat, 13:09:38 12/07/02
Sat
I was beginning to see Riley as interesting in season 5 but
Doug does have a tendency to write Riley as annoyingly perfect
and patrionising. And some of the speeches Doug gives Riley such
as "I've never courted anyone like Buffy before" to
me don't come across as charming as presumedly they were meant
too.
I think there's a lesson here for all would be writers.
Never I repeat never start idolizing a character or actor you
are writing about and try to make him or her come out perfect
- b/c generally what happens is the opposite comes across. An
old writing teacher once warned me about the dangers of writing
about yourself - you either come across monsterous or too good
to be true. Doug Petrie ironically ruined his favorite character
- people who like or even loved Riley prior to As You Were were
wishing he'd blown up in his helicopter - they despised him. Spike,
ironically enough, looked better in the episode than Riley did,
just as Spike looks better in both Initiative and Fool For Love.
Why? Because Petrie wrote Spike more objectively. Riley - he painted
in broad strokes that turned him on but his viewers off. Creating
a wooden stereotype as opposed to a full-fledged character. This
is a mistake.
I hope Doug Petrie learned something from the bad reviews and
lackluster ratings of As You Were. Perhaps not. There are some
people who liked it. Television criticism is after all a largely
subjective thing.
At any rate this is a hole we writers need to learn how to avoid
- don't fall so much in love with a character that you've created
that you make them into a robot. James Bond is a cool character
in Ian Flemings novel because he is not nice or even perfect,
he's complex, even dare I say, at times villainous. He is written
as a hit man. A dangerous man. The Bond in the Fleming novels
and played by Scean Connery comes across more like Angelus or
Spike than Riley. (I had difficulty believing Riley could harm
a fly or plan much of anything. He seemed to be a parody of James
Bond and I assumed that was the writer's point - but not you say
according to their commentary.) If Fleming had fallen in love
with Bond and written him like the Riley character - we would
never have met him.
I think the writers goofed with Riley partly b/c they decided
to create the "perfect normal guy", the "ideal".
Unfortunately the "ideal" is incredibly boring to watch.
And that could very well have been the point. Also, unfortunately,
one person's view of the ideal guy is not necessarily the same
as someone else's.
The other difficulty with Riley - was the desire to go in the
opposite direction of Angel. Angel was dark and had a monster
inside him. Riley had no monster at all - which made him seem
well two dimensional to many audience members and somewhat wooden.
The writers who did the best job with Riley were Marti Noxon
with New Moon Rising and Into the Woods, Joss Whedon with Hush
and Who Are You, Restless, but really David Fury seemed to show
the darker side and make the character more complex with The I
in Team, Shadow (where Riley starts going to the vamp trulls).
It is ironic I think that the writer who loved Riley the most
is the writer who destroyed the character in the audience's eyes.
Perhaps it's a good thing that Petrie isn't as enamored with Spike
or Xander. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Sorry double post. Can the first be deleted please.
-- Shambleau, 17:10:21 12/07/02 Sat
To me, those comments from the script are stage directions. Riley's
function in this episode is to be, in Buffy's eyes, perfect. He's
also supposed to be at the top of his game in his own eyes. She's
in her hideous Doublemeat uniform, frazzled and smelling of grease
in that scene. The idea of the description and the capital letters
is to give the actors an idea how to play their initial interaction.
We don't see the capital letters, but we see them in Buffy's reaction.
Unless they were printed that way for the rest of the script,
I don't see it as a big deal.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Sorry double post. Can the first be deleted
please. -- Miss Edith, 17:43:11 12/07/02 Sat
It's not a big deal at all. Just strikes me as funny but then
I'm easily amused.
[> [> [> [> I actually
found Riley interesting -- Dan The Man, 15:17:42 12/07/02
Sat
Its been a little while since I have seen As You Were, I have
never heard the commentary and I am definitely not a fan of Riley
and Buffy together, but to me Riley was in character and I think
functioned as he should on Buffy.
Riley Finn was born and raised in Iowa. He joined the military
and then volunteered a top secret special operation. He found
out that they were attacking monsters and that was ok with him.
He never questioned policy or asked why. Then he meets Buffy and
she quickly destroys Riley's black and white world of Humans vs.
Demons. Riley's response to this is initially confusion. Then,
Riley decides Buffy is on the right side and then just stays on
Buffy's side. However, Riley still wants to view the world in
Black and White terms. Most famously with his attitude that Buffy
either loves him or she doesn't when it definitely did not seem
to be that simple. He leaves town to military because he wants
to go back to a simpler world that he understood.
When Riley comes back to Sunnydale, he is back being the confident
individual that he was before he met Buffy. He understands his
world. Basically, the army sends him out to kill demons and he
does with his wife at his side. When he sees Buffy again, Riley
tells Buffy that she is an incredible woman because he can't see
her any other way. His line, "Buffy, none of that means anything.
I doesn't touch you." illustrates this wonderfully because
they do touch Buffy. Those things are an important part of her
journey and they shape who she is and who she will become. At
this point, Buffy is not an incredible women, she is a broken
woman who is a shell of her former self and arguably at one of
the lowest points of her life.
Riley's black and white world view is in evidence again when he
talks about Spike. Riley refers to Spike as "Deadly ... amoral
... (Spike smirking) opportunistic. (quietly) Or have you forgotten?"
because that is how simply he views Spike. Riley can't deal with
that fact that Spike's situation is more complex than Spike is
evil for all time (I'm not saying Spike is redemed at this point
either just that this is a gray area that Riley won't touch).
Feel free to disargee but I think it works.
Dan The Man
[> [> [> [> Re:
Doug Petrie the great plotter -- slain, 18:45:12 12/07/02
Sat
Don't take for granted that everyone hates 'As You Were'! I thought
it was a good episode, it just came at a bad time and didn't sit
well with the episodes before and after. I saw Riley as being
a figure of pathos in that episode, not as an ideal at all - he
thought he'd found moral certainties, but in reality all he'd
found was a way of blinding himself to the complexity of the world.
In the Buffyverse, moral certainty is never a good thing - believing
you're right is, yes, but far greater stock is set by making rules
for every indiviudal situtation and not living by set rules; often
doing whatever feels right, as in 'The Gift'. Riley was
beginning to achieve this, but fell back on his old black and
white view. I think the reason the episode has problems is that
this came in heavy contrast to Buffy's situation, and inevitably
implied by its context that Buffy should have learnt from Riley,
and abandonned her more complex and intuitive morality.
I think if Riley ever does return, it'll be made explicit that
Buffy's way is the only moral way, and that it's impossible to
fight demons by Riley's (or rather Sam's) methods without doing
as much wrong as right; the Initiative and the Watcher's Council
both failed, and I think Sam and the black ops will fail also.
That's assuming Riley comes back - but I expect Doug Petrie will
make sure of that!
[> [> [> [> [>
AYW -- shadowkat, 20:19:53 12/07/02 Sat
Good points. Though I think Mark Blucas sucessful movie career
and lack of interest in reprising the character may stand in the
way just as Amber Benson and Seth Green's desires not to return
did.
Actors have a funny way of not always cooperating with a writers
wants and desires. ;-)
At the time AYW came out - quite a few people liked it.
The majority however? Did not. The repeat ratings demonstrated
that. Notice which episodes UPN decided to keep the rights to
this season and which ones are being rebroadcast on FX? Normal
Again, OMWB, Villains through
Grave got grabbed by UPN. Not that that means much but it is interesting.
I didn't despise AYW as much as most of the people I know.
It felt like an odd parody to me. But hey that's just me.
Personally I think the plot holes and disjointedness of the epsiode
may have been a result of Petrie's direction and the fact that
no one reviewed the script. You see some of the same disjointedness
in Flooded. That said? I still have both episodes on tape and
have watched them many times. So clearly I liked them better than
most things on TV.
AYW IMHO is about a C+ episode. And still a low point in the season
along with Gone which I enjoyed more actually and DMP, Hells Bells,
and OAFA.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: AYW -- Miss Edith, 21:00:44 12/07/02 Sat
I think the plot holes were also done to actor availability. From
what I have heard Marc Blucus was only available at the last minute
so the script had to be churned out pretty quickly to fit with
Marc's filming schedule.
[> [> Here's a funny,
but brutal Noxon/Petrie parody I found on BC&S (7.10 spoiler-ish)
-- cjl, 18:56:00 12/07/02 Sat
Author: bubonicplague1348 (at the behest of itchyscratch the demon)
Subject: Episode 10 Parody *spoilers*
EPISODE 10: BRING ON THE NIGHT
MARTI: What does the title mean again?
JOSS: Titles donít have to have meanings anymore. Didnít
you get the memo? Ask Goddard about it.
MARTI: Well, in that case, can I make it "Take Back the Night"?
Iím a feminist, you know. I don't want to be domesticated.
JOSS: Sure, okay.
MARTI: (getting out her pen) Or maybe something that makes more
of a statement?
JOSS: Sure thing. I trust your judgment.
EPISODE 10: LETíS CASTRATE ALL MEN WITH PINKING SHEARS
INT. SUMMERS HOUSE NIGHT
(Willow is on the phone, and Dawn sits on the couch, half-listening
as she untangles a string of Christmas lights.)
WILLOW: So youíre arriving soon? Yeah...okay...oh, no,
thereís plenty of room for all of us. And itís rent-free!
Yeah...bye Giles.
(She hangs up.)
WILLOW: Thatís funny, the phone wasnít plugged in.
Oh, well.
DAWN: So a bunch of girls my age are arriving soon? That is so
cool! Itíll be like a big slumber party. No one has ever
just been around to spend time with me, and stand by me when things
are bad...
(JOSS coughs.)
MARTI: Oh yeah.
DAWN: Except for Spike. I hate him. He kept me in this house all
summer as his plaything. Evil, Rummy-playing bastard.
WILLOW: Well, thereís one a bit older. Sheís legally
gay. Stick with her, sheís unkillable.
JOSS: I can kill her if I want to! It furthers Willowís
character!
(Joss is immediately buried under a huge pile of incendiary mail.
Meanwhile, Dawn plugs the string of lights into an outlet. The
lights flicker for a second and then die.)
DAWN: Look! Itís mom sending me signals!
WILLOW (making huge, watery eyes the size of dinner plates): Oh,
honey, no.
(Xander appears at the top of the stairs.)
XANDER: Whatís going on, guys?
WILLOW: Well, Giles and a bunch of Potential Slayers are...
JOSS (sticking his head out from the avalanche of mail): No lines
for him! Heís supposed to be repairing the wall. Itís
part of his character development.
INT WEIRD UNIDENTIFIED UNDERGROUND PLACE NIGHT
(Spike is strapped down to a star of David, and one of the Harbingers
is driving a menorah through his wrist.)
SPIKE: Argh!
JOSS (getting impatient): Marsters, I thought I told you to deliver
that line ambiguously.
JAMES: Umm, ambiguous screaming in pain? Whatís the motivation
supposed to--
JOSS: Thatís for me to know and you to find out three months
from now. Someone dump a bucket of water on this guy.
MARTI: But you said I could use the nipple clamps...
JOSS: I told you, you canít play a Harbinger. Get back
to writing.
FE/DRUSILLA: Little pixies whispered to me that I canít
actually come back as my own character, because that might be
interesting. You need to go evil, Spoike.
(One of the Harbingers dumps a box of holy wafers down Spikeís
pants, while another spanks his feet with an Egyptian fertility
symbol.)
SPIKE: Argh! I mean...argh?
FE/DRUSILLA: Remember that time you raped an entire school bus
full of of twelve year olds on a field trip to the planetarium?
SPIKE: Not really...
JOSS: Yes you do! You do, dammit!
FE/DRUSILLA: Yes, you want the rain of fiery little ponies, all
the tea and biscuits, and--ahh, screw it. Why did I morph into
this nut job anyway? Be evil!
UBERVAMP: Grrr.
INT SUMMERS HOUSE TWO NIGHTS FROM NOW
(Xander is repairing a squeaky floorboard. Willow is sitting on
the couch, busy not paying rent. There is a knock at the door.)
PETRIE: Hey, I made it. Is it time for the Riley scene yet?
MARTI: Shh, we have to sneak it in when Joss isnít looking.
BUFFY (coming downstairs and accidentally knocking down the bannister):
Iíll get it! Xander, fix that.
(She opens the door. Giles is standing there with Molly, Kennedy,
and Cannon Fodder.)
BUFFY: Giles!
(She goes to hug him, and passes right through him.)
BUFFY: That was weird. Giles, whatís wrong with you?
GILES: Jet lag.
BUFFY: Oh, okay! Come on in, guys!
MOLLY: Too right! Crikey! Look at this house, isnít she
a beauty? Whereís the vegemite?
KENNEDY (giving Buffy a dirty look): I like Melissa Etheridge
and the WNBA.
(She enters and sits on Willowís lap).
CANNON FODDER: Iím a very sweet, charming person. I thought
Iíd establish that now, because you might feel bad were
something to happen to me.
MARTI: Doug, the baby is crying. You take over.
PETRIE: You got it.
(There is another knock at the door. Buffy opens it, to reveal
the virile form of RILEY FINN. Heís still sporting that
sexy scar, and a bead of sweat trickles down his full and luscious
lips. Moving like a jungle cat, he enters the house, leaving the
aroma of pure male pheremone in his wake. His pants are straining
tightly, begging for the release of his huge, engorged--
JOSS: I donít have time for this, Petrie. I havenít
used my quota of Michael Jackson video SFX yet, Marti is over
there trying to sneak into a Harbingerís robe, and Marsters
over there is telling me he canít hold his head underwater
for ten minutes without needing to breathe. Give it a rest.
[> [> [> Evil evil
cjl....LMAO!!! (uhm warning *major 7.10 spoilers in cjl's post
not mine) -- shadowkat, 21:49:00 12/07/02 Sat
There are major league spoiler suggestions in cjl's post.
Suggest CJL repost this after the 17 so the non-spoiled can read
and laugh too? ;-)
PS: Miss Edith if you are spoiled? You must read - you'd die laughing.
Methinks Joss is reining in the troops this season. And one word
- poor Marsters...when Whedon says he wants to challenge an actor,
he ain't kidding. ;-)
[> [> [> [> Mwhahahahahahaha....and
"oops." -- cjl, 06:57:53 12/08/02 Sun
Hmm...I thought I'd eliminated most of the actual 7.10 events
when I cut it off at Petrie's Riley-worship, but you're right--there's
an obvious, incontrovertibly major spoiler running through the
section I did keep. I've known about it for so long, it doesn't
seem a major spoiler to me anymore!
I'm losing perspective. Bad sign.
"Argh! I mean...argh?"
Incredible. Marsters can do anything.
[> [> [> OMG, ROTFL!
Thanks! -- Doriander, 06:14:07 12/08/02 Sun
I followed the thread, bubonicplague1348 did one for 7.8 as well.
Love this priceless snippet:
Cut to BRONZE INT NIGHT
SPIKE saunters in, wearing a leopard print top, tight leather
pants, and a giant purple hat with a feather in it. He sits down,
leaning on the table and looking morose, staring at his own reflection
on the tabletop.
EDITOR: Umm, we need to get rid of that.
JOSS: We donít have the budget. We spent all the money
on the CGI Kevin Bacon worm thing.
EDITOR: But Spike has a *reflection*!
JOSS: Hey, James, can the reflection, asshole!
JAMES: Iíll, umm, tryÖ
JOSS: Never mind. Weíll let the fans think it means something.
Itíll be funny. Jeeves, get WTP on the phone. Tell him
to drop hints about The Picture of Dorian Grey, Andrei Tarkovsky,
and Michael Jacksonís ìMan in the Mirrorî.
[> [> [> [> ROFL
again...(no spoilers in Doriander's) -- shadowkat, 08:34:45
12/08/02 Sun
I love the no reflection thing.
JOSS: Hey, James, can the reflection, asshole!
JAMES: Iíll, umm, tryÖ
JOSS: Never mind. Weíll let the fans think it means something.
Itíll be funny. Jeeves, get WTP on the phone. Tell him
to drop hints about The Picture of Dorian Grey, Andrei Tarkovsky,
and Michael Jacksonís ìMan in the Mirrorî.
LOL! Yes...leslie is right or rather Spike in her dream was when
he states "You know writers are inherently evil."
Especially ME writers. They also seem to have a sadistic thread
running through them. If you saw War Stories on Firefly - you
know what I mean.
So that's why they kept the reflection? to play with our minds.
[> [> [> Damn that
was good! Still laughing... -- dub ;o>, 08:26:42 12/08/02
Sun
[> How should we judge a
writer? -- Sophist, 14:04:41 12/07/02 Sat
I'm kinda late getting in here, since I rarely even know who wrote
which ep and I certainly couldn't make most of the comments I've
enjoyed reading in this thread. However, I am curious about one
point.
The posts here have generally discussed the writer's work in its
entirety. I'm doubtful if that's the best way to judge an artist
(interesting though the comments have been). Personally, I've
always felt it best to judge an artist on his/her best
work. JMHO, but it seems anyone can create bad art; the trick
is to do it well. Does anyone else agree about this?
If so, wouldn't it be interesting to identify a writer's best
episode (or 2-3 best or 10-12 in the case of JW) and analyze why
those succeed so well? Maybe even particular scenes could be chosen.
Just remember that I'm looking for everyone else to do all the
work on this.....
[> [> What are the best
and worste of each writer? -- shadowkat, 15:29:29 12/07/02
Sat
First - LMAO at: "Just remember that I'm looking for everyone
else to do all the work on this....." hee hee.
Second: "If so, wouldn't it be interesting to identify a
writer's best episode (or 2-3 best or 10-12 in the case of JW)
and analyze why those succeed so well?"
Great idea.
Okay not much time to do this but I'm going to try Whedon.
I'll analyse his best against his worst and show the contrast.
First a listing of all Whedon's episodes:
Welcome to the Hellmouth
Harvest
Nightmares
Out of Mind Out of Sight
Prophecy Girl
When She Was Bad
School Hard
Lie to Me
Innocence
Becoming Part I & II
Anne
Amends
Dopplegangerland
Graduation Day Part I &II
The Freshman
Hush
Who Are You
Restless
Family
The Body
The Gift
Once More With Feeling
(Xander's speech to Willow on the Bluff in Grave)
Lessons
Ats
City of with David Greenwalt
I Fall to Pieces with Greenwalt
Judgement with Greenwalt
Happy Anniversary with Greenwalt
Waiting in the Wings
What do I consider the best of the bunch? Innocence, Hush and
The Body and Restless - these four episodes are utterly flawless.
What worked? The tension between the characters, none of the characters
was ever out of character nor did they do anything just to advance
plot - their arcs were advanced as well. A writing instructor
once told me that you must make sure that you don't destroy a
character to advance plot. This does not happen in any of these
episodes. Tension between characters whether sexual or emotional
is used to advance plot in several places: in Hush - the sexual
chemistry between Tara and Willow literally moves a vending machine
against a door. Their bonding occurs when they flee from the Gentleman
- a terror that is slowly evolved over the episode and silently
so.
The use of silence in each episode accents it. In both Hush and
The Body - stretches of silence are used to increase tension.
But he doesn't just use silence - he emphasizes it - in Hush -
the opening sequence shows Professor Walsh describing the effect
of words and language and how we can communicate much more effectively
without them. Instead of re-emphasizing her point with more words
- the mistake of many current television writers - Whedon shows
us. We see it with Riley's kiss causing the sun to go down and
then how chaos erupts when the characters and inhabitants can
no longer speak - but only momentarily - b/c suddenly the characters
are expressing themselves far more eloquently than they did with
words. Spike gives Xander the equivalent of the finger. Xander
expresses his fears of losing Xander by fighting Spike - whom
he mistakingly believes is hurting her. Buffy and Riley actually
kiss instead of babble. Willow and Tara make a spiritual connection
and realize they both have magic.
Whedon's knack for showing instead of telling comes through in
each episode.
In Innocence - he shows us through the change of Angel into Angelus
- the terror of how after you sleep with a guy he becomes evil.
Angel demonstrates his loss of a soul by biting a woman and blowing
out her cigarette smoke. We know he is pure evil now b/c the Judge
can touch him. Then we see Jenny's culpability in a scene that
not only explains why she did it but foreshadows her eventual
death.
In the Body - we experience the physicality of death not just
through long tear-jerking speeches but images. In fact the silent
scenes in this episode are in some ways the most moving - the
scene in the classroom - where we watch through the glass windows
along with the other students, Buffy break the news to Dawn about
her Mom. We don't hear what Buffy tells Dawn but we don't have
to. It's not important. Instead we see physically what effect
the news has on her and the others who watch. And their removal
from it and inability to completely understand - as they are in
fact barred from the news by a piece of glass. They can't hear
it. Like us - they are safe from the unreality of it.
The final shot - the drawing Dawn is working on drives the point
home - Whedon shows us with an image what the absence of something
means - he shows us the negative space it once occupied. Note
he shows not tells.
What also works in each episode is the pacing - tough to do when
you are experimenting with narrative style but Whedon pulls it
off. In Restless he mounts the tension with each dream - ending
each one on a high note then jumping to the next. The dreams while
seeming disorganized and bizarre on the surface have a clear plot
and point and reflect each character's previous, present and future
emotional arcs.
Watching this episode is a bit like watching a man tightrope walk
between two skyscrapers - it's a balancing act. One misstep and
the whole narrative falls apart. Whedon never makes a misstep
- we never fall out of the characters dreams. Also each dream
stays true to the perspective we're in. Another thing that works
in each episode -
Point of View - in Restless, we see the world through the lense
of each SG, never veering away from the character in the dreams
pov, except possibly once in Willow's dream - a mistake that Whedon
admits to in his commentary - he couldn't resist the Xander spell
line - "Sometimes I want to do a spell all by myself."
In Hush - Whedon builds the terror by placing us in supporting
or bit players povs - Tara and Olivia. And in Innocence - we are
placed in Buffy's pov in the bedroom scene that Angel tells her
how inadequate she is. Also we see Angelus' entrance into the
factory and the SG's entrance from Spike's pov.
Missteps Whedon has done:
Anne, Amends, and Waiting in The Wings - the problems with these
episodes is the characters reactions at times felt forced or to
service the direction Whedon wished to take them. The sexual chemistry
between Cordy and Angel and Gunn and Fred wasn't well enough developed
so it came across as awkward in Waiting...the story built up to
a point where we saw Wes going dark and crazy but never quite
delivered. The ending seemed to somehow fall flat. And the general
pacing was off. Whedon had attempted to do with ballet what he'd
done with song and dance in OMWF but the ballet theme felt forced
and secondary to the story, it never took center stage and never
felt necessary to the narrative in the same way the songs in OMWF
did.
Amends similarly didn't completely work. The First is far more
frightening now, while in that episode it seemed lame as did the
harbingers. Buffy seemed to have no problem killing them. While
the dead trees were sufficiently creepy, the payoff wasn't. Also
Giles and Xander forgave Angel far too quickly in the episode,
to the extent that it was almost jarring after the episodes that
had come before.
The snow storm while eloquent in some ways also felt overly melodramatic
and hokey. And it was hard to buy that the first brought Angel
back from hell only to kill him off in the end. Also the flashbacks
of Angel's past crimes did not have quite the same resonance as
they did in Becoming or in Angel the Series...I felt in Amends
that Whedon was preaching to me, telling not showing. And Buffy's
line: "I get it. You're evil!" was an echo of how I
felt rewatching it. A tad too heavy-handed. That said? I'd still
give it a B overall.
Anne? Just dragged. It was hard to care for Lily and the other
kids Buffy met and the SG's story was far more interesting. The
dialogue was sharper and the action - to the extent that I wanted
more time with them and less with Buffy. The hell dimension was
also not very interesting nor did it really propel the story forward.
Okay...not a great analysis...but at least a start. Maybe someone
else can fill in the holes? Give it more meat?
Or even disagree with me? What do you think were each writers
good episodes and can you show it by contrasting how they worked
against the missteps? Hopefully better than I just did...;-)
(Not proofread, just written stream of conscious, so be kind -
had to post it in a rush.)SK
[> [> [> Great points.
-- Sophist, 17:25:16 12/07/02 Sat
I would add the one comment I feel qualified to make: JW has a
great sense of how to generate an emotional response in the viewer.
In his best episodes, we cry.
[> [> Re: How should
we judge a writer? -- Sara, 08:18:49 12/08/02 Sun
Great question! I like the idea of judging an artist by his best
work because it formalizes the ability to experiment, go out on
a limb, and to fail miserably. If we let the failures affect our
judgement of the artist, that would encourage a stagnant approach,
once you find something that works it becomes much scarier to
change it. Of course, you've got to give extra points to those
who are prolific in the quantity and quality of great work, but
is it so bad to create only one amazing piece of art in your life?
I'm thinking I could live with myself if I happened to be Pachabel
and wrote the Canon.
- Sara, who wonders how it would feel to write the perfect piece
of music and realize it was downhill from there...
[> One-Hit Wonders --
cjl, 11:52:27 12/09/02 Mon
Ty King - Passions
Dan Vebber - The Zeppo
Diego Gutierrez - Normal Again
Spectacular efforts all, but they were never heard from again.
(Although, by coincidence, Dan Vebber surfaced on Futurama last
night! And the ep was funny too! I guess you never lose it...)
And I suppose there should be room in the Buffy pantheon for gone
but not forgotten writers like Tracey Forbes ("Something
Blue") and the dynamic duo of Rob DesHotel and Dean Batali
("The Puppet Show" and "Killed by Death"),
who eventually wound up on--and I'm not making this up--That 70s
Show.
Any other long-forgotten names spring to mind?
[> [> Re: One-Hit Wonders
-- Doriander, 12:31:37 12/09/02 Mon
Ty King also wrote "Some Assembly Required". Not exactly
a hit so the OHW title applies I suppose.
Vebber wrote "Lovers' Walk". Not as good as the Zeppo
(my favorite S3 ep), but a hit nonetheless.
Carl Ellsworth wrote "Halloween", IMHO remains the best
Halloween ep. I saw his name in the Xena credits once (not a Xena
fan so I don't know if he's a staff writer).
[> [> [> Ty King and
"Passion" -- Dyna, 13:38:33 12/09/02 Mon
I don't know what the story was with Ty King, but the shooting
script for "Passion" obviously got seriously rewritten
during production, especially the horrid, horrid (really horrid!)
Angel voiceovers.
But the Angel voiceovers are some of the most memorable lines
in the episode, you say? Aren't they amazing and poetic and creepy
and unforgettable?
Well, yes! But not in the script as written by Ty King. Just for
fun I pulled up the script and the transcript to pull these out,
because I never get tired of marveling at the amazing power of
Joss as a (re)writer. Observe!
***Teaser voiceover***
Ty King version:
ANGEL (V.O.)
(softly)
PassionÖ
Öit is bornÖÖand though uninvited, unwelcome, unwantedÖ
Ölike a cancer, it takes root.
It festers. It bleeds. It scabsÖÖonly to rupture, and
bleed anew.
Aired version:
Angelus: Passion.
It lies in all of us.
Sleeping...waiting... And though unwanted...
...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl.
***Voiceover for scene where Angelus watches Buffy and Willow***
Ty King version:
PassionÖ it drives some to distractionÖ
Ösome to despairÖÖsome to vengeanceÖ
It drives some to murderÖ and others to madness.
Aired version:
Angelus: (narrates) Passion is the source of our finest moments.
The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of
grief.
***Final voiceover***
Ty King version:
ANGEL (V.O.)
PassionÖ is the source of hopeÖ
Öand the cause of despairÖ
It is the source of lifeÖ
Öand the cause of death.
Aired version:
Angelus: (narrates) It hurts sometimes more than we can bear
If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of
peace. But we would be hollow.
Empty rooms, shuttered and dank...
Without passion, we'd be truly dead.
[> [> [> [> Talk
about the value of a good rewrite -- ponygirl, 14:01:08
12/09/02 Mon
The rewrite certainly takes the writing to another level. The
script version comes across as utterly flat and obvious. The aired
version -- imagery that isn't spelled out for us, but at the same
time resonates more deeply. Essentially we're seeing the difference
between prose and poetry.
Thanks Dyna!
[> [> [> [> [>
Right? And also the trickiness of analyzing a writer based
on aired episodes! -- Dyna, 14:56:29 12/09/02 Mon
Why can vampires
have sex??? -- Jesika,
21:15:00 12/06/02 Fri
Vamps hearts dont beat right? So how can the get a boner and have
sex. I.e Angel and Buffy, Spike and Buffy, Angel and Darla, ect
they shouldnt be able to get it on.
[> 'Cos otherwise the show
would only have been one season long. -- Caroline, 21:29:52
12/06/02 Fri
[> Vamp bodies are mystically-transformed
versions of human bodies... -- Rob, thinking way too much
about vamp bodily functions, 22:46:27 12/06/02 Fri
...and can reproduce and simulate all human bodily functions,
such as eating, drinking, breathing, crying, and having sex.
Although the functions look similar to the real deal, they are
just simulations. For example, vamp breath, while it looks like
real breathing, is devoid of oxygen, which is why Angel couldn't
revive Buffy with CPR in "Prophecy Girl."
I work under the assumption that since Buffyverse vamps' bodies
can reproduce realistic-looking tears (unlike Anne Rice's literature,
which says that all bodily fluids are replaced with blood), they
also probably produce realistic-looking semen. The catch though,
obviously, is that it is sterile.
The fact that the heart does not pump does not matter either way,
because vamp's bodies are operated by completely mystical means.
If they weren't, vamps couldn't move around, let alone get erections.
Assumably, the demon in the human body that transforms it into
a vamp body reproduces all these actions, fluids, etc to make
the vamp seem all the more "genuine."
Rob
[> It's not physics, it's
metaphysics -- Dan The Man, 22:46:46 12/06/02 Fri
[> It's called The Magic
Clause.....why, cause...... -- Rufus, 02:24:18 12/07/02
Sat
I don't want to spend valuable time trying to figure out how beings
with no pulse can get it up. I now have more time to figure out
how to retcon the Clem kitten eating story to keep WW from ending
the world as we know it...;)
[> [> Re: It's called
The Magic Clause.....why, cause...... -- slain, 07:13:50
12/07/02 Sat
Oh, that's easy - Clem eats kittens because cats, as we all know,
are evil (though cute). He's actually a force for good, protecting
the world from the forces of tabbyness. Much like Buffy, in fact.
[> [> [> My eyes my
eyes!!! You have become very bad, I think you should be sent to
your bunk.....;) -- Rufus, 16:29:45 12/07/02 Sat
Which you will only understand if you watched last nights Firefly....:):):)
[> [> [> You are going
to come to a very bad end... -- Whipwoman, 09:52:08 12/08/02
Sun
...certainly if I have anything to say about it!!
[> [> [> Vampires...sex...kittens...
*looks around furtively* -- Sophomorica, licking furry kitten
ear, 19:09:45 12/08/02 Sun
[> [> The magick clause
(spoilers for Becoming, 2, School Hard, Deep Down) -- Dr.
VampRiley to the rescue, 17:03:28 12/07/02 Sat
They don't have a pulse, but their blood does flow through their
veins. That's how Spike knocked Dru out in Becoming, 2, why Spike
got high after eating a flower child, how he's gotten drunk on
numerous occasions. Without blood for a long time, Angel was going
crazy, and could have had permanent damage to his higher brain
functions without it.
In this case, the magick claus is in effect, but there is an explanation.
There is some mystical energy moving it along. A lot of people
keep going around saying, "how can vamps have erections without
the engorgement." Blood traveling to that part of the body
is only part of why there is a erection. The rest is other tissue
acting on a natural reflexive reaction to an external stimulus,
hormone levels and nerve impulses traveling to the brain, as far
as I know.
VR
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