December 2001 posts
a buffy question -- clandestina, 02:01:14
12/23/01 Sun
okay, the "line of slayers" is confusing to me. the Watchers Council assumes that a slayer
won't live to be much older than 18, correct? and buffy was called when she was 15 or 16. so do they
automatically place the slayers to be two years apart from each other in age? buffy, kendra, and faith
all seemed to be about the same age. why would they call a 17 or 18 year old slayer if she's gonna
kick the bucket soon anyways?
and what happens if a slayer lives to be older than 18? if a slayer lives to be, say, 30, will they call a
28 year old slayer who is presumedly past her prime? or would they go down the line and call
someone else? for all we know, faith could sit in jail for the rest of her life, leaving her to die an old
woman. so are they gonna call some old lady to be the slayer just because she was the next in
line?
and what if a slayer dies really young, like the second she is called? are they going to call a thirteen
year old slayer? and if she dies quickly too, are they going to call an eleven year old and on down the
line until they're eventually calling stake-wielding toddlers?
maybe i'm thinking about this too much (ok i totally am!), but i don't get it. can anyone explain, or is
there nothing to explain b/c the writers haven't made it clear?
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[> I don't believe the watchers themselves call the slayers. -- Adrenfreak, 04:06:49 12/23/01
Sun
It just happens, and they have to find em.
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[> [> Re: I don't believe the watchers themselves call the slayers. -- skpe, 06:16:50 12/23/01
Sun
There have been hints dropped that the slayer is called by the PTB's and that the WC act as mentors
and guides. Thou I will admit the whole calling thing has been left ambiguous
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[> My hypothesis: The "Slayer" possesses each Chosen One. -- bookworm, 11:42:22
12/23/01 Sun
The show hasn't really given us a lot of information to go on about the Slayer. We know that a Slayer
-- usually just one -- has existed since before recorded history, almost as long as there have been
vampires. We know that the Watcher's Council was formed to help guide the Slayer. We know that
some Watchers are apparently able to identify Chosen Ones before they are Chosen. Kendra's family
sent her to her Watcher when she was a small child to be trained. The Watchers apparently weren't
aware that Buffy and Faith were potential Chosen Ones until they'd been Chosen. We know that
Kendra was called after Buffy "died" the first time and Faith was called after Kendra
died. The Slayer line now passes through Faith. We've seen the "First Slayer" in the
fourth season episode "Restless," where she attacks the Scooby Gang in their dreams and
in "Intervention" where she acts as a spirit guide to Buffy. Other than that, we haven't
been given much information. Here's my working hypothesis: I think the "Slayer" is a
demon/goddess/ghost/primieval spirit that has existed since pre-history. That spirit goes in search of
a new Chosen One when the last one leaves this mortal coil and possesses a new body when she finds
one that "tastes good." Each potential Chosen One must be physically, emotionally,
spiritually, a perfect specimen to become the next Slayer. Maybe they vibrate psychically; maybe
their aura gives off a glow that draws the spirit to them. Their "taste" may have
something to do with having just passed through puberty. They are young and strong when they're
teenagers, and also emotionally, spiritually, sexually and psychically more sensitive and open than
they will be at any other point in their lives. Whatever prompts the Choice, whenever the spirit of
the Slayer inhabits a new Chosen One, changes take place. I'd speculate that the spirit activates
dormant prehistoric DNA that gives the new body superhuman strength, faster healing powers and
psychic gifts, etc. The spirit of the Slayer either coexists or blends with the humanity of the new
Chosen One. Her essence probably manifests itself most of the time in the instincts and the
subconscious of the human host. Buffy probably doesn't know how she knows what she knows -- she
didn't become a martial arts expert overnight, for instance. Her human side is actually pretty
clumsy, but when the Slayer takes over she's a killing machine. The Slayer is both darkness and
light, aggression and restraint. Buffy's extremely uncomfortable with the dark side of the Slayer and
in denial about the NATURE of what she is. She tries to control it or deny it, sometimes successfully
and sometimes disastrously. In "Restless," I don't think the First Slayer was called from
some other dimension or some other time. She was manifested from BUFFY's subconscious and tried
to kill Giles, Willow and Xander because Buffy had briefly lost control of herself when they merged
with her. In "Intervention," the First Slayer was a manifestation of Buffy's own
subconscious. She was speaking to herself. As Buffy gets older, her battle is more about
understanding and accepting the nature of the Slayer inside her. It's something she did better before
Angel stomped all over her heart. "I use my emotions," she told Kendra, the Queen of
Control. At 16, Buffy accepted that the dark and the light emotions were both part of her as the
Slayer and she used them to keep her alive and to give her an edge. After Angel left, she tried to lock
down those emotions. Ultimately, she has to accept that the darkness is part of her as much as the
light if she's going to keep it from consuming her. "Slayers forge strength from pain." I
think the Slayer and the vampire are two sides of a coin. It would make sense if the way they are
created is related. The spirit of the Slayer takes over/coexists with the humanity of the Chosen One
just as the demon takes over the body of a human and becomes the vampire. Watchers believe that
the human dies, leaving only a corpse animated by a demon, but they may be mistaken about the
nature of vampires.
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[> Re: a buffy question -- grifter, 13:14:04 12/23/01 Sun
1. The WC doesn't call the Slayers; the PTB choose the new "host".
2. Age is irrelevant since the Slayer gets chosen the second the old Slayer dies, not before that. So, if
a Slayer dies at age 80 peacefully in here bed (yeah, like that's gonna happen), it doesn't mean
there's a 78 year old granny-slayer out there waving her walking stick at vampires. There would just
be another teenage girl out there fighting the forces of evil.
3. The WC and Kendras' parents didn't necessarily have to know she was going to be a slayer. There
could be any number of potential slayers out there being trained by the WC.
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[> [> Re: what would happen if..... -- sasha, 15:47:25 12/24/01 Mon
...the current slayer died and the WC couldn't find the new one?
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[> [> Re: a buffy question -- anom, 20:25:14 12/25/01 Tue
"So, if a Slayer dies at age 80 peacefully in here bed (yeah, like that's gonna happen), it doesn't
mean there's a 78 year old granny-slayer out there waving her walking stick at vampires. There
would just be another teenage girl out there fighting the forces of evil."
Yup. And dozens of former Slayer candidates of all ages in between (& maybe even older!) who
were never Chosen, living out normal lives, happy or otherwise.
Holtz's revenge/time paradox -- yabyumpan, 08:21:51 12/23/01 Sun
I read a post on another board of a possible revenge scenario where Holtz with the time-travel
demon's help, brings Angelus forward to this time line to kill Angel's "family" and son.
Interesting idea which got me thinking, what would happen to present day Angel if Angelus was
dusted in this time line? Would present day Angel just cease to exist, would he exist minus demon?
The way I see it, present day Angel consists of: Liam + Demon=Angelus + Soul + 250 years of
life/death expieriences. Angel is much more now than Angelus was, so if Angelus got dusted, would
that leave Angel still with the memories of Angelus and a soul but no demon. Also, what about Liam;
was he totally integrated into Angelus and so disappear with him or would he stay as a part of
Angel.
Same sort of question but from a different angle, If Angel got zapped by the demon that zapped
Xander in the Replacement, making there two of him, what would each one consist of;
Angel/Angelus, Liam/Angelus, Angel/Demon (as in Pylea) or none of the above.
Any suggestions, comments etc
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[> Re: Holtz's revenge/time paradox -- AngelVSAngelus, 08:37:57 12/23/01 Sun
I think if Angelus were dusted in the present then Angel would be as well. If Angelus had of died
then, there would be no Angel as we know him today. If you of four years ago came forward into time
to kill you of the present, and your past self was killed by something, then you too would die. At
least, theoretically speaking. This is why they call them time paradoxes
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[> [> Re: Holtz's revenge/time paradox -- grifter, 12:55:55 12/23/01 Sun
Actually, I think it would leave his (new?) soul (+ about 100 years of experience) without a
body.
He'd be stuck as a ghost and be haunting Cordelia's flat along with Dennis!
;)
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[> [> [> Dude, if you killed Angelus.... -- AngelVSAngelus, 23:28:00 12/23/01 Sun
then he would have never killed the gypsy girl, and thus never been cursed with the soul in the first
place. No soul would be in our realm of the living to be left.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Dude, if you killed Angelus.... -- grifter, 07:25:02 12/24/01 Mon
Hmm, depends on if we're talking about pre-killing-gypsy-girl-Angelus or post-killing-gypsy-girl-
Angelus.
The old gypsy-woman didn't curse him right away, so if the p-k-g-A would be sent forward in the
time she might have still cursed him, the soul would be spooking around for about 100 years and
then try to reposses the p-k-g-A, which would give us Angel (-100 years of xp).
Or I'm really stupid. Could be both.
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[> one more thing on that list... -- anom, 21:22:11 12/23/01 Sun
"The way I see it, present day Angel consists of: Liam + Demon=Angelus + Soul + 250 years of
life/death expieriences."
... + Liam's undead body. Which, if it's dusted, is gone. No Angel.
A few thoughts on Holtz's daughter and vampires. -- bookworm, 09:54:10 12/23/01 Sun
I've been curious about her since I saw "Lullaby." Did Angelus and Darla deliberately
turn little Sarah into a vampire or did it happen accidentally? If they did, is it possibly the worst act
they committed? Her vampire "sires" committed child abuse by creating a "vampire
child" who could never defend itself. Why didn't little Vamp Sarah attack her father when he
came home and found her? Didn't she need to feed or had she already fed on what was left of her
mother and brother? She still acted like a child in need of protection from her father, not a vicious
animal. She let her father hold her and sing a lullaby; she cowered in the corner and begged him not
to throw her into the sunlight. Was there any part of the human Sarah's nature left in the vampire,
or was it just a weak vampire's instinct to protect herself? How does her behavior compare with the
Anointed One, the only other child vampire in the Buffy universe?
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[> Re: A few thoughts on Holtz's daughter and vampires. -- Hauptman, 11:43:39 12/23/01
Sun
Good question. The way I understand it, and I am not the most well versed regarding vampirism in
the Buffy Universe, once a person is vamped their soul goes on to where souls go (another longer
discussion)and the demon that is vampire takes over the near dead body which then dies
completely.
It seems the vampire demon doesn't have a personality of it's own but is instead an evil carbon copy
of the personality of the victim. The vamp has all the memories of the victim and a warped view of
their world. Angelus was all the vice that was packed into Liam's heart come to life. Holtz's daughter
was only a child; she had bee loved and cared for. she would have to learn about evil to embrace it.
Chipped Spike shows that vamps are not all evil all the time.
I dunno, this answer isn't coming together the way I wanted it to. Bottom line: Sarah didn't have
enough evil charged in the ID to make her a vicious vamp bitch at birth. The worst ones seem to
have had hardships or emotional pain prior to being vamped (Angel, Darla, Spike, Dru) while ones
like the dope in the bar Darla tried to get to turn her seem more tame. So, I think age, intelligence
and emotional baggage are elements that contribute to the making of a really vicious vamp.
Also, she seemd to rise rather quickly. Darla seemed to take longer to rise. But we aren't given a firm
timeframe or distance that Holt's has to travel on horseback in the epi.
I hope this prattle is somewhat useful. My head hurts. Happy holiday.
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[> [> Re: A few thoughts on Holtz's daughter and vampires. -- grifter, 12:51:07 12/23/01
Sun
I have to agree with Hauptman here...Sarah probably didn't have the "evil" within her
personality (yet) to be a typical vamp.
As for the time-frame: Sometimes it takes the little bloodsuckers a long time to get back on their
feet, while at other times they seem to rise again immediatley...I'll go with Joss' answer to all the
logical mistakes they made: "It's magic!" ;)
Oh, and also, the Annoying One was kinda special I guess, so you can't really compare him to other
vamps.
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[> [> [> Re: A few thoughts on Holtz's daughter and vampires. -- Hauptman, 12:56:49
12/23/01 Sun
"the Annoying One"....Ha!
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[> Re: A few thoughts on Holtz's daughter and vampires. -- Rufus, 16:00:18 12/23/01 Sun
Okay, when a vampire is made, it is a demon possession, and infection, that drives out the soul. The
soul seems to be the conscience in the Buffyverse...but the memories and personality, or the mind, is
the same. The lack of soul seems to give the soulless a predisposition to prefer evil, but we know that
vampires can love. So, I think you have a person who is who they were with a suppliment of a
demon. If it was just a demon in a people shell, then it would be that much easier to kill them, but
with the mind and appearence of who they were, it's more horrific.
The scene in Lullaby with Holtz and his daughter was a heart breaker. You bet that Darla and
Angelus made the child a vampire to get the most pain out of the vampire hunter. What I think it
did do in one moment was make him mad.
Psyche's transcripts Lullaby:
INT. ENGLISH COTTAGE - NIGHT (FLASHBACK)
BANG! Holtz bursts into his house, just like he did in the flashback of episode 8. All's quiet. A bloody
streak on the wall. CAROLINE on the floor; her discarded body contorted like a rag doll. Bassinet on
its side on the floor. Angel and Darla, long gone.
CLOSE - HOLTZ
His face twists into a mask of pain. He falls to his knees. Then hears an echo-y voice; distant, as from
another world.
SARAH (O.S.)
Papa...
Holtz doesn't react to the voice, which seems to be in his head, something remembered. Again, more
distinct this time:
SARAH
Papa -- ?
Holtz freezes, seems to be hearing the voice finally. This isn't some remembered voice. He registers
that it's real. He turns and sees --
SWEET LITTLE SARAH
Appearing in a doorway, stepping out of the shadows. She holds a doll that dangles at her side. She
rubs her sleepy eyes with a tiny fist. Waking up.
HOLTZ
Sarah --
Holtz reacts with a combination of relief and concern as he sees that she's peering past him with
sleepy eyes toward her dead mother. Holtz rushes to her side, holds her close, turning her little face
away from the scene.
SARAH
Mummy won't wake up.
Holtz tries to keep it together, holds his daughter to him.
HOLTZ
Shhhh... quiet now.
Holtz smooths her hair. He starts to sing to her.
HOLTZ
(singing, almost a whisper)
Sleep my love and peace attend thee
All through the night;
Guardian angels God will lend thee,
All through the night,
Soft the drowsy hours are...
...creeping...
He trails off as he notices something that we don't yet, as... she continues HUMMING/SINGING the
familiar lullaby to herself, unaware of his sudden concern...
...behind Holtz, his two RIDERS appear warily at the door, weapons in hand.
RIDER #1
Captain -- ?
HOLTZ
(without looking at them)
Don't come in here --
The men look to the carnage. Rider #1 crosses himself.
RIDER #1
Sweet Jesus...
HOLTZ
GET OUT!
They do. He slowly disengages from little Sarah. She still seems oddly in her own world. She
continues to hum to herself. Dotes on her doll much the way Holtz is doting on her.
Holtz gently backs away from her. Picks up the song under his breath as he backs away... sits in a
chair, watches her...
HOLTZ
No forebodings should alarm thee,
They will let no peril harm thee,
All through the night...
Tears may be streaming down his face, or maybe he's doing all he can to keep that from happening
as he looks to --
HOLTZ'S POV
Two bruised and distinct VAMPIRE FANG MARKS on her delicate neck.
CLOSE HOLTZ
Looking downward in the direction of his little girl. She's still HUMMING offscreen. As we hold on
Holtz...
Holtz was a man with a mission to save the world from the demon vampires, but he couldn't save his
own family, they were wiped out while he was off at battle.
His wife,infant son, and daughter were taken from him, worse his daughter was turned into the very
monster he fought against. He had to save her.
INT. ENGLISH COTTAGE - DAY (FLASHBACK)
Holtz sits bleary-eyed in the same chair that we left him in. Staring. Sunlight kisses his face from a
nearby window. Sun creeping up outside.
The door opens and Holtz's men tentatively enter. They hover there for a moment, concerned for
their leader. Finally:
RIDER #1
Captain...
No response from Holtz. He appears to be a zombie for the moment.
RIDER #1
Captain we beg you... let us take you out of this place.
Holtz doesn't respond, continues to stare. Rider #1 looks with fear and trembling to the
carnage.
RIDER #1
It's the devil's work...
HOLTZ
(flat)
Not the devil. Just a demon.
RIDER #1
What are we going to do?
Now we see what Holtz has been staring at --
Sarah's doll lies alone in a shaft of morning light. Little Sarah is now pressed into the shadows.
Holtz rises. Resolute.
HOLTZ
Whatever we have to.
Holtz moves to Sarah, looming...
SARAH
Papa?
He reaches down, drags her from her corner. She starts to thrash and cry.
SARAH
Papa! Papa, no!
Holtz drags her kicking and screaming past his confused men, to the door --
EXT. ENGLISH COTTAGE - DAY - CONTINUOUS
Holtz shoves his daughter out the door, pushing her into the morning sunlight --
SARAH
Stumbles outside, turns back -- VAMPFACED. She reaches out toward him even as she BURSTS
INTO FLAMES --
Holtz stands at the door, not a trace of emotion on his face. His astounded men beyond, as --
-- Vamp Sarah GOES TO DUST.
VERY CLOSE - HOLTZ
The REFLECTION OF FIRE in his eyes.
Still no emotion, just hardened features. And we are:
Imagine throwing your own child, demon or not, to her death. We will never know how evil she
would have been because her father wanted to save her from the demon inside. Darla and Angelus
took a man and created a monster, he will never stop and will do what it takes to gain his revenge.
He no longer has a larger mission, just a very small one, a personal one. How ironic when Angel
should have known joy that he can only feel fear, not just from all those who want the child, but from
an evil he created himself.
OT - 12th Poem for Christmas -- Brian, 14:00:19 12/23/01 Sun
THREE ON A THEME
I
Amid hay and dung,
Among dumb animals,
Alone in time,
While three kings follow a star,
And shepherds abide in wonder,
A Child opens His eyes
To see rough timbers.
The celebration of Peace begins.
II
In snow quiet flight
Three shepherds sight
Angels whispering bright
Heralding newborn Light.
III
In the cold of one naked night
While a huge star looms
To touch a gentle manager,
A Child opens His wondering, knowing eyes,
And silence embraces the holy group,
Gathered to witness the birth of Peace.
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[> Thank you! Very heartwarming! -- Nina, 12:59:28 12/26/01 Wed
Holiday Greetings -- Valkyrie, 06:25:19 12/24/01
Mon
Happy Holidays to you all. I've enjoyed your stimulating discussions. Back to lurker mode...
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[> Same from me ;) -- grifter, 07:14:50 12/24/01 Mon
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[> A peaceful and happy season to all. -- Cactus Watcher, 07:38:49 12/24/01 Mon
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[> Happy Holidays, everyone. -- Wiccagrrl, 11:03:46 12/24/01 Mon
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[> Bah, Humbug! -- vampire hunter D, 14:01:54 12/24/01 Mon
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[> Benedictus -- OnM, 20:32:02 12/24/01 Mon
*******
I had excerpted a small portion of this lovely and powerful old Strawbs tune for the beginning of my
most recent CMotW post, tonight I thought I'd post the whole song here, it seems to fit the
occasion.
*******
BENEDICTUS
The wanderer has far to go
Humble must he constant be
Where the paths of wisdom are
Distant is the shadow of the setting sun.
Bless the daytime
Bless the night
Bless the sun which gives us light
Bless the thunder
Bless the rain
Bless all those who cause us pain.
Yellow stars may lead the way
All diversions lead astray
While his resolution holds
Fortune and good will will surely follow him.
Bless the free man
Bless the slave
Bless the hero in his grave
Bless the soldier
Bless the saint
Bless all those whose hearts grow faint.
*******
Thanks to all of you here for making my year a much better one.
Peace & goodwill,
OnM
*******
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[> To rip off Bob Barker............. -- Rufus, 22:30:35 12/24/01 Mon
Please remember to spay or neuter all resident vampires.......also Happy Holidays!
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[> [> We will bring you the bruised and beaten body of Bob Barker! -- Slayrunt, 21:29:29
12/25/01 Tue
Sorry, I just love that line.
I hope everyone had a happy holiday/Christmas/winter soltice/please fill appropriate holiday name
here.
Slayrunt
New Harry Potter book finished!!!! -- The Last Jack, 07:37:55 12/24/01 Mon
J.K. Rowling has just finished the final chapter of the latest Harry Potter book! Of course it will be
many months before it is released, and if there are rewrites it could take longer, but at long last
there is an end in sight!! This is the best present for Christmas for me, as I have been waiting for the
new Harry Potter book ever since I finished the 4th (about 3 days after it had come out lol)
Merry Christmas everyone!
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[> Re: New Harry Potter book finished!!!! -- Wiccagrrl, 11:02:39 12/24/01 Mon
I heard this yesterday. This is such great news. I've become a huge Harry Potter fan, and I can't wait
until Book Five is released.
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[> [> oooh, i think i just creamed my pants... -- pocky, 16:17:53 12/24/01 Mon
...and for that little obscenity, i apologize. ^_^'
i just happen to be a humongo Potter fan. yay!
~nathan~
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[> [> Re: New Harry Potter book finished!!!! -- Sol1056, 00:46:25 12/25/01 Tue
Well, as long as they actually spend time on rewrites this edition - the book 4 copy I got had a variety
of typos. Aggravating, for the amt of money I'm spending I'd expect her & her editors to stay on
top of things! ;P
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[> [> [> Hmmm. Canadian printing was flawless... -- Wisewoman, 08:44:52 12/25/01
Tue
...and I'm very hard to please when it comes to editing.
;o)
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[> [> [> [> Re: On a side note, there's going to be a Public HP Book Burning! -- Dedalus,
08:24:39 12/26/01 Wed
Yeah, I was just over at the Leaky Cauldron, and someone had posted a link to an article about some
preacher in some podunk town sponsoring a public burning of Potter books. I hear, to add to the fun,
that heavy metal rock CDs will be burned too. Sounds like a good time, so I call for a road trip and
somebody bring some marshmellows!
The funny just keeps on coming as far as our favorite little bespectacled wizard is concerned. When
asked if he had actually read the books or seen the movie, the preacher replied, "no," but
seemed pretty certain they were evil nonetheless. Ah, book burnings! Those were the good old days,
weren't they? Throw in a few swastikas, and it'll be just like Berlin in the thirties all over
again!
On a lighter note, Pat Roberston has resigned from the Christian Coalition, and fundraising-wise,
the group is reported to be in a "downward spiral." Also, there is a great article by a
Christian from Scotland over at the LC blaming Christians for driving people away from
Christianity and more or less making a mockery of it, and she even suggests if there are any real
wizards or witches out there, that they should turn the people banning books into frogs. So it looks
like Xander is not the only one interested in building an army of frog people.
Cheers,
Ded
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh, just stake me now! The world is full of idiots!! -- WW, 13:41:21
12/26/01 Wed
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[> [> [> [> [> ugh, the ignorance and immaturity is sickening... -- pocky, 01:05:31
12/27/01 Thu
Honestly! You'd think these people who are so against books such as Harry Potter would at least
have some kind of factual knowledge about them, aside from the fact that it's about a boy and his
witchy world. It just shocks me how they could promote an act such as burning books and blatantly
make themselves look ignorant by judging something they don't even know about!
And I find burning books an extremely offensive thing to do!!! ARGH!!! It's promoting
ignorance!!!
Don't they realize that they need to buy the books to actually burn them? Hello--if anything, they're
just helping the author rack in more money.
end rant.
~nathan~
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: ugh, the ignorance and immaturity is sickening... -- Dedalus,
08:25:47 12/27/01 Thu
Indeed, that's what I thought.
They do need to buy the books to burn them, thus supporting the Potter juggernaut. Still, logic
obviously isn't exactly these people's best quality.
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[> Are you sure? -- Wisewoman, 09:43:11 12/25/01 Tue
The reports I've read in the news are that Rowling is saying she's finished of the final chapter of the
series i.e. the final chapter of Book 7, the epilogue. She apparently has the plots of the final three
books all sketched out and knows how it's all going to end, but I haven't yet seen a report that Book 5
has been completed.
Maybe I've missed that article?
;o)
The Nature of the Beasties (widespread spoilers) --
Darby, 08:54:43 12/24/01 Mon
Some thoughts about vampires...
BtVS started as a series of high-school metaphors, that much we all know. But why vampires? I
think we've been given that explanation many times, embedded in the series (and AtS) itself.
The most overt explanation came in the Professor Walsh class in one of the episode teasers. It was
all about the id, the Freudian sublevel of consciousness that's all about "want, need,
have" (sound familiar?). Since it is the underlying driving structure of the psyche, it's no
surprise that you can, if you try hard enough, connect everything the series deals with to it (you
could do the same with "JAG," or "The Gilmore Girls"); but it turns out that
you don't have to try hard at all.
Adolescence is all about dealing with the needs of oncoming adulthood, putting into place the
governing superego (that's it, I'm done with Freud - he had some good ideas, but mostly he was an
insightful fruitcake) that will try to keep us from grabbing our way out of society. Whether it's Buffy
wanting a normal life, Willow wanting some "cool," or Xander wanting some inkling of
his eventual destination, the stories all circle around the integration of what we want to take and
how we pursue it within the constraints around us.
And that's where vampires come in. What are the demons? Well, they're soulless, we've been told
(over and over again), but what does that mean? I think it means that they are all hunger and no
empathy. There's no thought for the victims, something humans have, partly wired and partly
learned. We got a glimpse, apparently, of Angel's demon when it emerged in Pylea, and it was feral,
all bitey no thinkey, with just a hint of Angel's control within. Not all that different from Oz's
werewolf. When a human's soul departs, what I think happens is that they lose their empathic
behavior control, to have it replaced by a presence that is all about assuaging hunger. The
personality of the person is there but no longer in control, and the demon is driving. The intellect is
still present, though, enough to say, "Fine, we'll bite that, but not right this second,"
which keeps vampires (once they've fully woken up) from being the one-note beasties that
werewolves are. The force of the demon's drive does seem to vary - this explains the variation in evil
between Angel, Spike, Harmony and the other vamps we've gotten to know - and it does allow them
some semblance of underworld social order. Or it could be that, beyond blood-hunger, the acts that
would have brought pleasure to the human within are monstrously distorted in the vampire - that's
interesting because it gives insight into Liam, and William, and even Willow.... Another possible
explanation for the variation is that it makes plotting more interesting, and I'm just reverse-
engineering here....
Spike becomes an interesting case, in that his hunger has been redirected by the chip... Can the new
sources of relief become permanent substitutes, chip or no chip -? If Spike really wanted the chip to
go away, maybe he needs Giles and his swinging watch more than the 3 Stooges...
Ever wonder why a secret government monster lab was being run by a PSYCHOLOGIST? (Yeah,
yeah, she had to be teaching a class that Buffy and willow might take as freshmen) Again, we were
told - the aim was "behavior modification," although toward what end is guesswork. But,
as we're finding out with Spike, in a disturbingly Zen way, you are what you do. How has Spike's
behavior been modified? It seems to be a simple "I, Robot" control - don't hurt people.
How does a chip buried in a demon's brain decide which one of the beings around it are people? The
simplest answer is that it doesn't - it lets SPIKE decide 1) if this being is human, and 2) if he intends
to harm it. Ultimately, HE decides who he can hit, within simple chip parameters. It makes more
sense - the chip is supposedly from the technological world, and giving it the ability to differentiate
between humans and demons is way magical.
There are implications here. Tara may be part demon after all - the "litmus test" was
that Spike was hurt by the chip when he struck her, but that could be because he was CONVINCED
that she was human. And, more to the point of current discussion, is Buffy really
"wrong," or is it Spike? There has been an arc to Spike's journey, from interest through
infatuation through professed love into what appears to be, for Spike, true love. With Drusilla, it has
been established that Spike is a devoted lover, but can be both caring and careless, flippantly and
petulantly abusive. Dru's reactions brought him around to apologies, but he hardly seemed to
recognize what he was doing before that. Love can entail rationalizations of "this will hurt me
more than it will you," or "this is just for your own good," or "I don't really
mean it," and abusers (and does any one really think that Spike is NOT an abusive lover??) can
ignore inflicted pain beyond what many people would think conscionable. Spike no longer really
believes that he can really hurt Buffy - there were hints of that in "Fool for Love" (and
results would seem to back him up on this) - THAT'S why the chip doesn't work on her anymore.
Disturbingly, he might even be able to kill her, if he becomes convinced that she's more hurt being
alive (the chip could even "push" him that way) in this glittering world.
At some point, I want to do a follow-up on the beasties of Angel's world, who seem to work under
somewhat different rules, but this is enough for now...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> "Does anyone think Spike IS NOT an Abusive Lover?" -- Spike Lover, 14:04:58
12/24/01 Mon
Me. (Holds up hand.) I don't think Spike is an abusive lover. Nor did I think he was a sick stalker.
Nor did I think that Dru was abusive to him. Nor do I think they had a sick, abusive relationship.
(This does not mean that they were not into S & M, but that is different altogether.)
I think if I thought Spike was an abusive lover, I would not want him to be paired up with anyone.
As it is, I want him to be paired up with the best possible mate in the world. (But I will settle for
Buffy, since he seems to want her.)
What is an abusive relationship to you? In simplistic terms, an abusive relationship is where one
person is physically beating up on the other, and this behavior is "enabled" by the other
person. Did Spike and Dru have this? No. Did Harm & Spike have this? No. Do Spike &
Buffy have this? Maybe. There is a tendency for Buffy to beat on Spike, to take her frustrations out
on him, but although she behaves this way, they are missing the co-dependent link of - him leaving
her, and her apologizing to him, promising it will be better, begging him to come back to her, etc.
Also, she does not blame him for her bad behavior yet. It certainly had the potential to become
abusive until recently when in "Smashed", Spike is suddenly able to hit her back, and in
"Wrecked" when he tells her that she has got to start treating him better or he will bite
her.
The other big no-no in abusive relationships is mental abuse. One person forfeits their self-esteem
because the other person is constantly telling them that they don't measure up. It creates a kind of
dependency because the weaker party is convinced that they can not make it without the abuser.
They will fail or die if they leave, and this makes them even more dependent on the abuser. (I have
been in this situation.)
Did Dru and Spike have this? NO. Did Spike and Harm have this? Not so much. They were a mis-
match, relationship of convenience, and I think that Spike (like me and other audience members)
found Harm very annoying. And it is easy to put down what annoys you. Harm, however, recognized
that Spike was putting her down and had moved to the self-help books and was working to be
independent of him. But even then, when she left (the first and second time) he did not latch onto
her like an abuser would.
Do Buffy and Spike have this sort of relationship? Er- sort of. Buffy is always putting Spike down.
He is a thing. He is beneath her. (The real question is if he left her, would she pursue him? We will
have to wait and see.) But again, in "Wrecked" he has stated that he is not going to take
it anymore.
So, I guess I would say that although Spike is not an abusive lover in my opinion, Buffy again seems
like she could very easily become an abuser in a relationship if Spike allows it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Okay, maybe I've rethought that part... -- Darby, 20:01:28 12/25/01 Tue
Spike Lover, although I'd have to say that the alias exhibits some bias, I also have to say that some
of what you've said has swayed me. That, and my wife pointing out that the Spike / Dru exchanges
we were shown were not all that different from exchanges we've had. I don't quite buy the extent of
the definition you've given (I'm not sure that enabling is a *necessary* part of the process, or the on-
and-off nature either), but I will say that my suggestion was overextended as well. And I'm no longer
sure how I would label the current B/S relationship.
I stand by the other stuff, though - unless someone can shake me on that...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Interesting, but a quibble... -- Tanker, 14:06:36 12/24/01 Mon
Spike felt pain when he attacked the human muggers in "Smashed," who he thought
were demons. Therefore, the chip works at least partially independently. If Spike swings at someone
without intending to actually hit them (as in FFL), the chip doesn't activate. But if he actually hits
or intends to hit, and the target is human, it activates, whether or not Spike knows that they are
human.
The way the chip works has been shown so inconsistently that I don't think it can be used as
evidence for anything.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The Nature of the Beasties (widespread spoilers) -- Gwyn, 18:23:59 12/25/01 Tue
I work in behaviour management so the question of what the chip does or does not do to Spike
interests me. Behaviour modification, when working with people who hurt others, particularly when
there is no real empathy for those that might be hurt on the part of the perpetrator, requires that
some extrinsic motivator is put in place to do the required behaviour. In Spike's case,to refrain from
killing humans. Spike has no empathy for humanity in general, being a vampire who saw them as a
food supply, so the Initiative would have chipped him to motivate him with an aversive stimulus. Try
to hurt people, get zapped. This is pretty effective use of aversive stimuli in Spike's case but the use
of such aversive therapies are not looked on favourably in behaviour analysis generally today as it is
morally questionable, even under controlled conditions. This is not to say that it is never used.
The chip does not make Spike choose to do good. It simply stops him from one evil action, physical
violence towards humans. He could, and does, continue to do other questionable stuff, like petty
stealing. So he can still choose or not choose to do other immoral acts, and he has the free will to
choose or not to do good. He is still, broadly speaking, able to access the broad range of moral and
immoral acts that you and I might be able to, independent of what most of us do not do as
well,physically attack people.
Since he still has a whole range of moral fibre he can develop I think he deserves a pat on the back
for not doing a whole range of other nasty things that unchipped beings in and out of the Buffyverse
do. He frequents a sleazy demon underworld still and he is not, as far as we know, into a lot of the
crime that must be going on in it, drug dealing for example. He kills demons and vampires, but so
does Buffy, and lately, he seems to be doing it in the right contexts. Except for that one incident in
Wrecked where the chip kicked in and stopped him biting the girl to prove he was still not
housebroken, we have not seen consistent lapses. Even that was to be expected given that research
in behaviour analysis tells us that progress is always two steps forward, one step back.
He deserves a pat on the back for choosing to do good on a regular basis for some time now. What the
chip may be doing here is, by allowing him to cease to be a threat to the human world, he was able to
enter to gain entry to that world in his contact with the Scoobies and Buffy, so that he could find an
intrinsic motivator to do good. In his case, love of Buffy, and to a lesser extent Dawn. Love, in his
case, is a very powerful intrinsic motivator because, for the most part, until Buffy succumbed to lust
in Smashed, he had very little positive reinforcement to do anything good. Just that one kiss in
Intervention for undergoing unbelievable torture. The kiss at the end of the musical gave him hope
that he might find his love returned and Smashed raised those hopes even higher, but all the major
decisions to make a positive moral choice, like protecting Dawn in the Gift, were done without
expectation of his love being rewarded. Since, most of us,operate on extrinsic motivation on a daily
basis, I'd say Spike, even with the odd lapse, is well on the way to rehabilitation! And I, for one, am
rooting for him!
Gwyn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The Nature of the Beasties (widespread spoilers) -- simon A., 16:43:38 12/27/01
Thu
I have slowly come to the conclusion that the chip does MORE than simple aversion therapy, it's just
that that's the only function that is obvious. I think that it has some more subtle functioning, a
"synthetic superego" that seems to slowly grant Spike the functional equivalent of a
Whedonverse "soul." I am also willing to grant the writers a large degree of inconsistancy
between the suddeness of Angel's change and the gradualness of Spikes change. Perhaps it just takes
a while for the chips neural net to effect spike. This would explain why when he was freshly chipped,
he was throwing everyone around the Initiave during his escape. And to what extent is Spike's
lingering evil due to him trying to continue to do things that used to be fun. Haven't we all woken up
discovered that something that we were doing just wasn't fun anymore?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The Nature of the Beasties (widespread spoilers) -- Gwyn, 13:00:46 12/28/01
Fri
I think that the idea that the chip is anything more than aversion therapy would be a pretty
depressing comment on the human condition for the show to make. While Spike is a vampire he is a
vehicle for commenting on the aspects of the human condition he embodies, and even the most rabid
supporter of behaviour analysis and behaviour modification would not make the claim that stimulus
for aversive therapy does anything more than create the conditons for the subject to reconnect with a
quality of life that the anti-social behaviour gets in the way of.
I think being "chipped" in Spike's case allows him to get beyond the idea that the only
way he can feel good about himself is through doing evil. He hates the chip, at least initially, because
it stops him being the Big Bad, cuts his identity off at the knees so to speak. For a while he wallows
in self-pity and is pretty comic and pathetic. Once he starts to find some purpose through helping
Buffy and fighting vampires and demons some of that whining starts to fall away and he begins to
rebuild some sort of identity that incorporates the conditions the chip sets up. I think we can see how
far he has come in working with the chip when he says in Smashed, after Andrew has checked the
chip is still working, "Nothing wrong with me. Something wrong with her." This is an
amazing acceptance on Spike's part of his current chipped condition! This is not to say that he
wouldn't love to have total freedom of ego back, who wouldn't? But, as his attempt to bite the girl in
this episode shows, it is lucky he doesn't as he still has a way to go before he is ready for it. I'm
hanging out to see when that will be but the fact that the chip only sets the ground rules for
behaviour change by preventing one behaviour and one behaviour only,and does nothing more than
that, is shown very clearly by what Spike does when he finds out it does not work against
Buffy.
He confronts her in the alley to lord it over her that he can hit her, in essence to assert his equality
with her, to point out a pretty significant power shift in their relationship. The irony is that he
thinks it is about showing her that he is not house broken, that he is still Bad, but the choice he
makes when he fights her shows that he has not reverted to that at all. He gets to show her that this
is who he is, with regard to her, without the chip. Since Buffy has always thought that the only thing
stopping Spike from killing was the chip, at least in her case she can no longer claim this. Does he
try to kill her? No he does not. Welcome to a behaviour modificatin success story, or at least to the
first sign that we can start to think about incremental withdrawal of the aversive stimulus! At least
in Buffy's case, Spike does not need the chip to prevent him killing her. He chooses, freely, not to do
it. And while the chip allowed him to make the moral journey that brought him to that point, it has
nothing to do with the free choice he makes here. That choice amongst other things, comes from his
love for her..er...but that is another post. What we do know now is that Spike, with regard to Buffy,
no longer needs the chip.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The Nature of the Beasties (widespread spoilers) -- dsf, 13:15:32 12/28/01
Fri
>I think we can see how far he has come in working with the chip when he says in Smashed, after
Andrew has checked the chip is still working, "Nothing wrong with me. Something wrong with
her." This is an amazing acceptance on Spike's part of his current chipped condition!<
Yes -- an apparently unconscious admission of what he considers "right" for himself. And,
for that matter, of what's right for Buffy: being human. Would he even consider turning her, now
that he could (assuming he didn't get dusted trying)? He said he wouldn't let them kill an imperfect
Buffy. But would he make Buffy less herself in order to bring her closer to him? I don't think
so.
dsf
BtVS Christmas story -- matching mole, 18:58:52
12/24/01 Mon
This is a break in the Shadows at the Bottom of the Sea Story to indulge myself in mawkish
sentimentality and cheap humour. Happy Holidays of whatever sort you wish and I look forward to a
new year of yummy philosophy.
Please forgive the rushed ending and any typos.
It was the day before Christmas in Sunnydale. The bright sunshine of morning had given way to
dark clouds and chill breezes. Still folk scurried from one high end specialty shop to the next in good
cheer. This means snow they said to one another. A white Christmas. And they completely ignored
their wet socks. Even the occasional collision of their automobiles did not dampen their seasonal
enthusiasm. California drivers, they exclaimed. What do we know about winter driving?
In the midst of Sunnydale where the snow fell the thickest and the shoppers were the cheeriest was
the magic shop. Perhaps the most high end and most specialized of all the shops in this affluent city.
Despite its expensive and specialized nature this ship did a booming business for Sunnydale was not
just your average outrageously expensive coastal Californian town. It was on the Hellmouth and all
things magical were in great demand. Witches bought rare ingredients for the members of their
covens. Seekers of arcane knowledge bought books of arcane knowledge. Those who would be lovers
bought love spells. Demons bought long lost talismans that would further their plans both sinister
and benign.
This magic shop belonged to an ex-vengeance demon named Anya. Because of her demonic past I
trust she will forgive my familiarity in addressing by what we must ironically refer to as her
Christian name. She now took the form of a beautiful young woman with hair that changed color and
length frequently. Of late life had been very good to her yet she was still not happy.
Recently, her absentee partner, Mr. Giles had perished under mysterious circumstances in England.
Something about being hit by a bus while cleaning his glasses. Now she held exclusive control of the
store. After some initial hesitation her suitor, a Mr. Xander Harris had proposed. Although it had
appeared, on more than one occasion, as if he might like to renege on their agreement he had been
persuaded to see the matter in the same light as herself. A short communication from her lawyer
containing the words 'breach of promise' had been more than sufficient.
Her financial and personal life seemed secure but her seasonal sales were not as high as estimated.
Her suppliers hadn't come through with requested items. At least two dozen potential customers had
requested a particular voodoo doll and had ended up going home disappointed. This disappointed
Anya in turn and she took this out on her staff.
A new order had arrived early that morning and she had eagerly conscripted her friends to help with
the unloading. It had taken all day with frequent interruptions for customers. By 4 PM there was
mutiny in the ranks.
"Can't we stop now?" Miss Willow Rosenberg was pulling jars of newt eyes out of a box
and stacking them on a very high shelf. "My arms are getting tired. I'm liable to drop
something again." She looked down at the bottom of the ladder where a few fragments of an
earlier jar lay in a puddle.
"Did you say you dropped something?" Anya quickly crossed the shop. "That'll be
coming out of your wages Ms. Rosenberg."
"But you're not paying us anything An." Her fiance, Mr. Harris was arranging the wands
in order of length on the next row of shelves over. "Ow!"
The later exclamation was in response to a swift blow to his stomach from his bride to be. "And
that's precisely how much you're worth. Someone has to pay for the broken merchandise. It's not my
fault you're clumsy."
"If you'd let me use magic I could lift all this stuff up there twice as fast-- Ow!" Miss
Rosenberg grabbed her thigh and almost fell off the ladder. Anya had poked her with the very long
stick that was in the shopkeeper's hand through out the day. And it was not for the first time that
day either.
"No magic for you." Anya retracted her telescoping stick and glared at the red-haired
witch.
"She's right Will. You did take the pledge." Mr. Harris cast a hasty glance at his beloved
as he did so to make sure he was out of striking range should she manage to take umbrage at his
statement.
"O.K., O.K. I guess you're right. But I don't know how much longer I can keep doing
this."
"I don't know why not? What else have you got to do? You're all alone now that Tara has left
you. And left me with one less assistant."
Miss Rosenberg burst into tears.
"Now look what you've done." Mr. Harris headed around the shelf to comfort Miss
Rosenberg. "There, there Will. It'll be alright. She didn't mean it."
"I most certainly did mean it. And why aren't you still working? Because one of you stops does
the other have to as well? I'm waiting for an answer."
Mr. Harris stopped in his tracks at the foot of the ladder, looking indecisively first at his sobbing
friend and then at his irate fiancee. He appeared unable to act.
"You know what? This blows." A young woman came up the steps from the basement.
"The mummy hand got loose again and it took me half an hour to get it back in its box."
This was Miss Dawn Summers, the younger sister of Miss Buffy Summers, the erstwhile leader of a
stalwart company of demon hunters that often met at the magic shop. Mr. Harris and Miss
Rosenberg were her most senior and trusted aids.
"What the hell is going on here?" the younger Miss Summers continued, viewing the
distraught Miss Rosenberg and the almost equally distraught Mr. Harris. "What have you
been doing to them Anya?"
"No more than they deserve, the layabouts."
"I think that this is enough for today." Miss Summers crossed her arms and surveyed the
shopkeeper with an expression of determination. "It's Christmas Eve. We should be at home
with our families."
"Your family is out patrolling with Spike." Anya referred to the aforementioned elder
Miss Summers and her companion, a rather roguish vampire with a penchant for colourful
nicknames.
"She'll be home soon. And no one else is going to come and buy any of this stuff for
tomorrow."
"But we need to get everything ready for the Boxing Day sale." Anya started to extend
her very long stick again.
"Boxing Day?" The other three looked at her in puzzlement.
"Oh, right. Sorry. I forgot that I'm an American now. Back to work."
"Sorry An." Mr. Harris stepped away from the ladder and looked her in the eyes. "I
think she's right. It's time to call it quits." From the ladder a teary-eyed Miss Rosenberg
nodded her agreement.
"Fine." Anya pouted in an aggravating manner that she had perfected over the past year.
"But I want you all in here two hours before opening the day after Christmas so we can finish
this up."
"Thank you." Mr. Harris helped Miss Rosenberg off the ladder. Young Miss Summers
joined them and they headed for the door. Just as they were about to exit Mr. Harris turned back.
"Aren't you coming An?"
"Some of us have work to do." Dismissing them from her mind Anya turned to her
work.
Several hours later she was disturbed by a sound at the door. As the shop was long since closed she
reacted cautiously, approaching the door slowly with a cross, stake, and bottle of holy water in hand.
Flinging it open she was confronted with a horrific sight. It was her former partner, the deceased Mr.
Giles. And both sight and stench confirmed his none to recent demise. His flesh was putrid with
decay and his once elegant tweeds were stained with the soil of the grave. Great manacles were
wrapped around his legs and arms.
"Beware!" The undead Giles had a voice considerably inferior to that of his living self but
it still retained a highly evocative quality. "Beware!"
"Oh my god!" said Anya as she dropped her holy water.
"Beware," repeated Giles, somewhat unnecessarily.
"What do you want?"
"Beware."
"Am I going to be audited?"
The zombie took off his glasses and began to clean them. "Do you think I'd arise from the dead,
break the chains holding me in my coffin, and make my way to America to warn you about an
audit?"
"Why were you chained in your coffin?"
"The Watcher's Council. They are very thorough."
"Well then, what about it? I'm a busy young shopkeeper. I appreciate this rising from beyond
the grave and all but time is money."
"You will be visited by three ghosts this night." Mr. Giles voice was taking on an
increasingly impressive timbre.
"Three more? Or three counting you?"
"I'm not a ghost. I am a zombie. As I said you will be visited by three ghosts. To teach you the
true meaning of Christmas so that your behavior will be somewhat less appalling in the future.
Beware! Beware!" Mr. Giles stumbled off into the night.
Anya shut the door and returned to her ledger. Despite all her efforts she could not keep her mind on
the task at hand. The words of Mr. Giles returned to haunt her again and again.
"Time for bed," she said eventually and, carefully locking the shop, she headed for home.
The dark streets of Sunnydale were deserted with even the demons dreaming of dark gifts beneath
their trees of horror. The apartment was empty as well. A note from Mr. Harris informed her that he
was spending the night at the Summers' residence. To weary to care she flung herself into bed and
fell into a dreamless sleep.
When she awoke moonlight was pouring into the apartment through her bedroom window. For a
minute all was still. Then the sounds of barbaric rhythms became faintly audible, gradually growing
louder. A movement caught her eye. A lithe figure flashed into the light and then back into the
shadow.
Anya sat up in bed, too scared to make a sound. The figure leaped into the moonlight again and
gyrated wildly, moving in concert with the wild music. It was a young woman, vaguely resembling
Anya's friend, the elder Miss Summers. Like that champion of justice this woman was young and
beautiful with hair of gold and graceful features. Unlike the chaste and moral Miss Summers this
creature wore clothing of a scandalously revealing nature. Her faultlessly endowed figure was
displayed for all to see. Other shadowy forms gyrated half-seen in the background.
"Who are you?" Anya found her voice at last. "I...I, I. Am. The Ghost of Christmas
Past." The ghost sang the words as if they were some sort of incantation. With a pretty heavy
beat behind them. "Here to show you what was." With one fluid motion she vaulted onto
the bed and grasped Anya by the hand. The shopkeeper was pulled upright. Anya found herself
standing in the middle of a forest of giant trees. Mist swirled over her head among the tree trunks.
She was standing at the edge of a trail.
"Watch." The voice of the ghost came from far above. Anya looked up and saw the
curvaceous spirit leaping from branch to branch, stopping briefly to drink from the soda she held in
her hand.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> BtVS Christmas story (2) -- matching mole, 19:01:24 12/24/01 Mon
Someone was coming up the trail. Anya stepped back behind a bush. A young couple clad in the garb
of medieval peasants were approaching. Frequently they darted angry glances at one another but did
not speak. They passed her and continued on their way. Anya thought that they looked like people
she had met in the past but couldn't quite remember who they were.
A minute later she heard the sound of someone else approaching. Two people were talking and one of
them sounded very familiar. It was a woman and, after a minute, Anya realized that she sounded
exactly herself in her demon days.
Then they appeared. It was Anya in her younger days with her brow so charmingly ridged and
furrowed and her eyes gleaming with the promise of vengeance. At her side stalked a mighty demon.
Muscles bulged beneath its hide of scale and fur, talons gleamed razor sharp on every finger, great
spikes waved at the tip of a magnificent tail. Most striking of all were his eyes which shone with
ferocity, candor, and a pitiless intelligence. "I don't see why you have to track down every jilted
woman who walks through this forest, An." Although his voice was rich in timbre, suggesting
both the magnificence and the terror of this wild place, his tone was remarkably suggestive of that of
Mr. Harris.
"Because, Rondor, I'm a vengeance demon. That's what I do."
"Well, sure An. I didn't mean to imply that you should give it up. Become a stay at home
demon or anything. But every single one? And on Christmas?"
"Why should we care about Christmas? It's a Christian holiday." Anyanka (for that was
her demon name) shuddered.
"Well the solstice then. Or whatever you want to call it. It's the time of year to be relaxing and
enjoying the finer things in life such as the company of your favourite fellow-demons."
"That girl won't avenge herself you know. She'll just sit there and spinelessly brood about his
unfaithful ways until one or the other of them catches the plague. That could take years."
"Fine. Avenge away. But can't it wait until after Chris... er, the solstice? If you get behind
schedule I could always pop round and eat him myself."
"You just wouldn't do it right, Rondor." Her voice was affectionate but she was clearly
not really paying much attention. "And then I'd lose my bonus as top vengeance taker on this
entire plane. I'm set to take it for the thirty seventh year running."
"Well in that case," Rondor stopped walking. "If your bonus is more important than
Christmas we can each enjoy one of them. Alone." He turned and headed back the way he had
come.
Anyanka stopped as well and looked at the retreating form of her demon paramour. "Go after
him." Anya breathed from behind her bush. Anyanka didn't move. After a long moment she
turned and continued up the trail after the couple.
"Rondor was great, wasn't he?" The Ghost of Christmas past leaped down from a tree
and landed amidst a profusion of fireworks. "I'll bet he rocked your world."
Anya nodded staring after the retreating form of her demon self. "Come back."
"She can't hear you. Not even if you scream. No taking back the past." The Ghost leapt
into the air and an even more vigorous pyrotechnic display commenced. When it subsided Anya
found herself lying back in her bed. "I'm probably supposed to think that was all a
dream." She pulled a leaf from her hair. "Now there's mud all over the blanket. At least I
hope that it's mud."
There was an enormous thud at the end of the bed and the whole room shook. Anya raised her eyes
from contemplating the ruin of the bedclothes and screamed. A great squat figure crouched on the
far side of the room. It wore a vest and was consulting a pocket watch. It was white and furry with
immense hindquarters, long ears, and a pink nose. Watery eyes regarded the shopkeeper with mild
alarm.
"Oh my stars! A huge bunny!" She felt that her heart would stop.
The rabbit coughed, a small polite cough. "I fear you suffer under a misapprehension. I am not
a rabbit. Merely a superficial resemblance. I am the Ghost of Christmas present. Observe!" The
ghost rather melodramatically stuck a forepaw through the top of a dresser as a
demonstration.
"Well I suppose that's alright then." Anya was somewhat reassured. Ghosts she could
handle. Some of her best friends had been ghosts. But bunnies!
"And I see we are running late. A few seconds more and we will be out of my purview. Let us
be on our way." A forepaw, suddenly substantial, grasped Anya's arm and a sudden leap
carried them out of the apartment and high into the sky. Down they came, light as a feather, on the
front yard of the Summer's house.
"Let's take a look inside, shall we?"
"They'll all be asleep." Anya felt a curious reluctance to approach the window.
"You would think so." The ghost consulted his watch again. "But the present is a
somewhat flexible concept. This is actually three hours ago."
"In the past you mean."
"Not according to the rules. As the past and yet to come are essentially infinite in scope I have
been allowed a little leeway. Stop quibbling and take a look."
Anya put her face up next to the glass. There was her fiance, Mr. Harris and both Miss Summers,
the elder and the younger. Also Miss Rosenberg and that rascally fellow known only as Spike. Mr.
Harris and the Miss Summers were gleefully playing some sort of game while Miss Rosenberg and
Spike watched from opposite sides of the room.
"Why aren't they playing?" Anya turned to the ghost.
The ghost wrinkled its nose. "They both pine for what they want and have not. The love of the
one they desire most."
"Oh you mean Buffy and Tara. Well that's no excuse for not joining in the party
spirit."
Inside the game had apparently reached its end amid general merriment.
"Where's Anya?" asked the elder Miss Summers as if just now noticing her absence.
"She had to work late." Mr. Harris smiled as he thought of his beloved.
"I don't know what you see in her Xander." Willow spoke up from the corner. "She's
bossy and self-absorbed and always says things at the most inappropriate moments."
"That's no way to talk, Red." The vampire stepped forward so the light could play off his
cheekbones. "It's Christmas. Show some charity." He glanced at the elder Miss Summers,
a quick look but full of feeling. She ignored him.
"She's my girl, Will. And she's not so bad. She has a good heart under everything."
"You're a lot more charitable than I would be." The elder Miss Summers shot a brief
glance full of ire at the vampire.
"Hey. Like Spike said. It's Christmas." The younger Miss Summers raised her glass in a
toast. "To Anya." The others followed suit.
"Time to go," said the ghost and leaped again, pulling Anya behind him.
They landed at the window of a small apartment. A young woman sat alone inside.
"Hey, that's Tara." Anya moved closer to the glass.
The young woman sat silent and motionless, a book lying unread in her lap. As Anya watched a tear
formed in her eye. Tara's face held a quiet, sad beauty. After a minute she began to sing. It wasn't a
song that Anya had ever heard before but she presumed it had something to do with Christmas.
"And what lesson do I take from this?" Anya tried to keep the catch out of her voice but
failed.
"An impatient creature aren't you? The young woman singing her heart out and you want to
cut to the chase. Very well. Many of your friends share the same sorrow. They love someone they
cannot be with. Yet they take solace in the season. You, who have what they so fervently wish for in
Mr. Harris, do not value it as highly as the cold cash in your till."
"Will they achieve their wishes spirit? Will they find happiness?" Anya felt something
strange stirring inside her.
"This one may be leaving. But she is strong."
"What of the ones that remain?"
"I see nothing but sorrow."
"Say it isn't so, spirit."
The ghost grabbed her arm again. "I thought you were in a hurry." It leapt high again,
soaring into the cold dark sky. Then it released her and she fell, rushing back toward the
earth.
To land in her bed once again. Already a tall, cloaked figure was waiting for her.
"You're late." It spoke in a voice from beyond the grave. "The rabbit is so
unreliable."
Anya shot up in bed. "He lied to me. I knew he was a bunny!"
"Well if you've quite gotten that out of your system." The figure gestured with an
immense scythe. "I am the Ghost of Christmas yet to come." Lightning flashed just
outside the window illuminating the room as bright as day and revealing the hammer lashed to the
ghost's weapon. "Let's rock and roll."
Anya found herself standing on the street outside of her magic shop. A few of the upstanding citizens
of Sunnydale were out and about as well. But no more did they wear bright colours and flattering
styles. Everyone wore clothing of the plainest and most severe nature. Earth tones for everyone.
Lunch boxes and tools were in every hand. The men had unkempt beards and the women unshaved
legs. She turned to the window of her office with a shudder and then jumped back in utter horror.
The potions and spells had been replaced with moldy potatoes and old copies of Das Kapital.
"Can this be?" Anya clutched at her chest. She felt that she might swoon.
The ghost laughed and threw back its cloak, revealing clothing of bright red underneath it. It swept
the folds of cloth around her and she found herself in the Sunnydale cemetery.
"Why are we here?" Anya felt relieved at being away from the travesty her shop had
become.
The spirit pointed at a fenced off section of the grounds. A sign above the entrance said 'Enemies of
the People'. The ghost went inside and gestured for her to follow. It stopped at an open grave with a
new headstone. "Whose grave is that, spirit?" she asked. There was no answer other than
the hammer and sickle swinging around and knocking her into the hole. Wiping the mud out of her
eyes, Anya found herself back in her room. It was just getting light out.
"I'll bet it's still Christmas day and I've got to go and save the world from socialism. Spend,
spend, spend." Anya got out of bed and headed for the shower.
An hour later she was ringing on the door of the Summers' house with fistfuls of cash.
"Here's something for a week in magic rehab Willow.
"Six months in therapy for Buffy.
"A year's membership in a gym for my darling so he can look nice for me.
"Tara gets a magic free Willow. Will you stop by and tell her for me, Dawn?
"Dawn gets a car! It's out front.
"And Spike gets an annual checkup in perpetuity on his chip so that he doesn't turn evil and
kill us all."
"God bless us, everyone." Spike headed for the kitchen to get some blood.
The End
Wishing you and yours the best of the season. the mole
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Ho Ho Ho! -- MrDave, 22:14:17 12/24/01 Mon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> LOL, I'm glad I saved this for Christmas morning! -- Wisewoman, 09:14:13 12/25/01
Tue
Great stuff, mole!
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[> [> hmmm... -- Diagnoztix, 16:31:01 12/25/01 Tue
It's very festive, in a buffy sort of way - but Giles being run over by a bus...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: hmmm... -- CW, 08:25:55 12/26/01 Wed
It was a double-decker bus loaded with tourists from California, no doubt!
Willow's inner thoughts -- Copper, 13:36:37 12/25/01
Tue
This may have already been discussed, but I don't remember seeing it.
Anyway, I was just watching OMWF again and was made further aware of the fact that Willow
doesn't really sing. Now, this may be because she can't carry a tune. However, it also may be that
her power (which is mentioned at the end by the Demon) helped her suppress her inner feelings.
Other than by her reactions to the other songs, we don't really know what she is feeling; what is
disturbing her; what her worries are.
Is she so far gone into denial of having problems that she does not even have anything to articulate
to the others at that point?
Is she becoming less human every time she uses magic?
Maybe Wrecked really was a wakeup call.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Willow's inner thoughts -- Shul, 12:47:16 12/27/01 Thu
My Vote is she cant carry a tune.
It happens to the best of us.
But its all just speculation at this point.
Buffy spinoffs -- Diagnoztix, 17:13:41 12/25/01
Tue
Anyone got any info on the Buffy spinoffs which are being talked about? Will 'Ripper' cover the time
before BTVS or after Giles leaving? I've heard it may be filmed in England but is it set there? (Cool if
it is - if they stick to exact locations; I live in Oxford!)Or will it have little to do with BTVS at all? (oh
well - I'm just interested by the possibilities - anything's better than Inspector Morse...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> There may be a clue... -- Darby, 20:16:45 12/25/01 Tue
When Giles returned, there was a discussion he had with Buffy about making a new friend
("which I'd thought was a physical impossibility at my age," or some such) which
sounded very much like something very plotty had happened to him - maybe it'll turn out to be like
the "lost" Buffy-Angel meeting, but I suspect it was a referral to the first episode of
"Ripper." Just a guess, of course.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy spinoffs -- LoriAnn, 03:54:05 12/26/01 Wed
Didn't JW say "Ripper" would be an anthology series? I may be wrong, but I got the
impression that Giles was going to do the donut around standalone episodes, not that
"Ripper" would tell the story of Ripper, but that Ripper would tell stories.
"Primeval speculation-Spike's subconscious
question for the board.... -- AurraSing, 18:27:50 12/25/01 Tue
Some blather on a cool Christmas night.........
Happened to catch the tail end of "Primeval" tonight as I finished cleaning up after the
traditional roast-beast meal and I heard something that really gave me pause.
In a voice-over segment showing Buffy,Riley and the Scoobies battling to exit the Initiative's base
and the many soldiers dying there,a goverment official calls the whole experiment of subverting
demons to help fight their underworld brothers and be used in military operations a failure.
"Demons cannot be harnessed,cannot be controlled."
Now granted Adam was a league above your ordinary class of demon,but did he not have a
controlling ship ala Spike?? Did all the demons shown in the complex originate off-base or were some
of them bearing chips ?
What does this say about how well the chip in Spike's head has been working up until now? Does
Spike have one of the few chips that really worked,or is there more behind it?
One clue I think to this puzzle shows up in the episode that followed,namely
"Restless".
Not only was Spike shown to be a Watcher in training in Xander's dream (and why would Xander be
that jealous of Spike at this point,since all the Scoobs supposedly regarded him as pitiful but still
very evil at this point in time???) but in Giles' dream Spike was posing for pictures for the press.I
will emphasise the "posing" part,since I am becoming to believe more and more that most
of Spike's evil nature is a pose.He may talk the talk,but I doubt he can really walk the walk
anymore.Oh yeah,he still has a nasty demon in him,but by nature he is not really a killer of
humans....anyone who could hang around a sweet young thing like Dawn as much as Spike has and
not go crazy with frustration over his inability to bite her is not truly evil or he deals with it on a
level most of us cannot contemplate in our subconscious.(look how he had to give himself a pep talk
in "Smashed" before he tried to bite the girl-that was pititful,it was......)
Does Spike's chip work better that the norm because deep-down he really does not want to kill,but
has been killing because it was the way to earn the respect of Dru,Darla and Angelus ?? Kill or be
killed as a weak specimen of a vamp ??
Which seemed more important to him-Dru's love or the need to kill?? I would have to say Dru's
love,which is very odd when you are a souless demon,don't you think?
Any thoughts??
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[> Re: "Primeval speculation-Spike's subconscious question for the board.... -- Rufus,
05:24:59 12/26/01 Wed
It sure would be a great scape-goat, this chip that makes Spike act against his evil nature. It gives
him an excuse to evolve as a character without too much risk to his ego. Spike's identity for many
years has been that of the Big Bad, a vampire that is feared by humans, a killer of Slayers. That is
hard to give up when all you knew before was the taunts of supposed friends. He wanted to chuck all
of who he was as it got him nothing. There was no incentive to remain a sensitive man, there was
certainly no womanly attention for it at that time. Becoming a vampire made him feel alive because
for the first time he got attention, unfortunately for doing the type of things that would have
horrified his former self. But as a vampire he is trapped. Vampires are competative loners that fight
amongst themselves...he doesn't respect many of his fellow demons, they in fact are a club he doesn't
really want to belong to but was stuck with. The chip affords a unique opportunity, a chance at
becoming part of a group he respects, and hopefully win the love of the woman he admired above all
others. If it doesn't work out he could work around the parameters of the chip and do evil again.
Forced to do good until his chains no longer restrict. The problem with the chip excuse is that Buffy
now knows it no longer works with her....and Spike has let the kittens out of the bag in respect to his
love for Buffy. The chip is now less important than what he does next now that he has to act and
take responsibility for the next things he does. The pressure is on, the incentive (love from Buffy)
great. So, is Spike still evil, did the chip let out that humanity that had been imprisoned by his ego
and demon? If that's what happened can he ever go back to what he was?
I see Spike as a character that has started to evolve..through unforseen circumstances, he has been
given the chance to become the man he never became in life. Will he become a real live boy? Or will
he just become an authentic being, no longer hampered by his insecurities?
A Joss article, A major spoiler? and Buffy Vs.
Dracula -- darrenK, 20:17:59 12/25/01 Tue
"The thing is, I like my evil like I like my men:evil..."
Buffy quote from Pangs, Season 4
There's a new article on the Buffy DVD's over at Zap2it.
http://tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?22729
And besides talking about the DVD commentary (can't wait!) it also drops a small bomb, something
that gives a hint as to the nature of the second half of the season.
Joss says that Riley is coming back...
The exact quote:
This should answer the question of what happened to Riley in the jungle, whether a demon or
something squished him. "Not squished," says Whedon. "Something rather more
dramatic happened to him."
Well, over at the Spoiler Slayer there has been some speculation recently that Riley would return as
a vampire and this quote does everything short of confirming this.
And it doesn't seem like any accident that tonights Buffy episode was Buffy vs. Dracula, just to
remind us that Buffy has always had thing for vampires, her power has always been rooted in
darkness (rather than just now that she's died and no longer sets off Spike's chip)and Riley was
hopelessly out of his league as a good guy.
It also makes the Hush all that more poignant. I recently wrote on this board that Hush and Once
More with Feeling were the two sides of the same coin.
Hush was where Buffy and Riley had their first kiss.
Does anybody remember any Riley stuff from Restless? I don't,but at this point Season 4 is like a
reference text for Season 6.
It had completely escaped me that Buffy had wanted to find out more about the other Slayers, where
the Slayer comes from and what she is. She never did find those things out.
And it just so happens that in the year after that Joss works on two projects about other slayers and
the origins of the Slayer––Fray and Tales of the Slayer.
Hmm...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Another quote: SPOILER -- LoriAnn, 04:01:50 12/26/01 Wed
JW is also quoted as having said, "We have him doing an episode for us after Christmas. We're
really excited."
Should "AN EPISODE" be take literally--one episode--or might JW be giving us a
fractional truth?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Another quote: SPOILER (spec) -- Deeva, 13:51:39 12/26/01 Wed
I read the same stuff at AICN. I think that all this speculation that whoever dies has something to
do with either a four-letter word or name, that it might be L-O-V-E. Buffy had loved Riley but didn't
realize it till it was too late. So I guess she sorta got over it or maybe not. So Riley comes back, not
squished, just changed. I think that Riley is the one to die, F-I-N-N. Maybe he comes back as a
vampire. Maybe he simply couldn't forget Buffy, so he decides to become like her ex and current(?)
flame, fangy. But it still doesn't help his case so she or someone else dusts him. Actually that last
sentence makes sense that someone else would stake Riley and not Buffy but she thinks she did it
because there is a spoiler out there saying that she thinks that she killed somebody but actually
didn't. But hey, what do I know I'm just along for the ride.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> If Riley or anyone else comes back and kills Spike- I will be so mad! -- Spike Lover,
12:20:31 12/27/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? and Buffy Vs. Dracula -- anom, 16:30:35 12/26/01 Wed
"Well, over at the Spoiler Slayer there has been some speculation recently that Riley would
return as a vampire and this quote does everything short of confirming this."
Don't be so sure. "Something more dramatic" could be lots of things, & Joss rarely
does the obvious. Even when he does, there's usually a twist to it.
"And it doesn't seem like any accident that tonights Buffy episode was Buffy vs. Dracula, just
to remind us that Buffy has always had thing for vampires,..."
I doubt Joss does anything "just" for 1 reason. It could also be a reminder about what
Buffy doesn't know yet about her "true nature," as Drac put it. I think we'll see more
about that in the rest of the season. Only how's she gonna know what was her original true nature
& what might have been changed by her death & rebirth (or whatever the right term
is)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> What will Riley be? (Tongue firmly in cheek) -- Calluna, 18:02:39 12/26/01 Wed
I'm personally hoping he comes back with antlers, like the demon Dru dumped Spike for in S.
America.:D Oh,the nasty memories it will bring back for Spike.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> For crying out loud.......isn't he tall enough already???...;) -- Rufus, 18:03:51 12/26/01
Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> But, Rufus, then he could get the cobwebs in the high corners...;-) --
purplegrrl, 09:23:42 12/28/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> You are right...and sooo practical purplegrrl..........;) -- Rufus, 13:31:17
12/28/01 Fri
As one that is far enough away from the ceiling to miss most cobwebs that would be just another
reason to have Riley around....we can't have him just sitting around doing nothing......:):):):):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Can I request that spoilers not be put into the subject line? I don't want to have to
stay away. :( -- Dyna, 19:40:42 12/26/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> It is the official policy of this board that subject lines *always* avoid spoilers...
-- OnM, 20:31:24 12/26/01 Wed
...but your reminder is very welcome.
And, we certainly don't want anyone to stay away because of this!
Everyone, and I include myself, PLEASE BE CAREFUL!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Please respond to Shaglio's suggestion in the thread above started by
Nina... -- Wisewoman, 17:51:30 12/27/01 Thu
Maybe we can find an easier way to avoid spoiling people!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? and Buffy Vs. Dracula -- Rufus, 18:05:43 12/26/01
Wed
It would make wacky sense Riley being a vampire. He longed to create himself in an image Buffy
would be interested in. That would also make him more of a danger to everyone. A nice pointy
toothed, formerly cornfed Iowa boy....with a promise he made to Spike to keep......:):):):)
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[> [> [> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? spoilery specs -- Shiver, 18:26:07 12/26/01
Wed
It would be even better if Dru sired him. Buffy took Spike, so Dru takes Riley. I don't think Riley
ever met Dru, but she'd know who he was with her "sight". Also, Spike can fight
VampRiley :-) think Buff will stake Riley to save Spike? Oooh, all kinds of fun can happen here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? spoilery specs -- Philistine, 22:33:38
12/26/01 Wed
"think Buff will stake Riley to save Spike?"
Perhaps not. But I definitely think Spike would stake Riley if he got a chance. I'm thinking of their
conversation in ITW - Riley needed an excuse, Spike was just hoping for an opportunity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? spoilery specs -- Gwyn, 20:17:09 12/27/01
Thu
It is possible for Dru to sire him....they are both in South America aren't they?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? spoilery specs -- purplegrrl, 09:28:35
12/28/01 Fri
Who knows where Drusilla is? Last we saw of her she was in Los Angeles.
And I thought Riley went to Central America (Belize?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: A Joss article, A major spoiler? and Buffy Vs. Dracula {speculation} --
VampRiley, 11:31:57 12/28/01 Fri
I'm not sure if Joss would do something as making Riley a vampire. It just seems as being a little too
obvious to me. To me, it makes more sense to make Riley something that equals and is the opposite
of vampires, Vampire Slayers, etc. You know, elevating him to something, something similar to what
happened to Anya. I can see him being an unwitting participant in some sort of ritual that has been
prophosized (that seems to be going around a lot these days). Something that is different than what
most people expect. Maybe a demon, maybe an angel-type being. Something that helps him to make
himself be more confident, higher self-esteem...something that makes him feel real good. When it
was first happening, he struggled, then he adjusts, like Olaf the Troll, and finds that he likes who he
is now. Much more than when he was just a regular G.I. Joe guy.
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> you mean you don't want to see him...(spoilers?) -- anom, 12:49:25 12/28/01
Fri
...live up to your posting name? @>)
"I'm not sure if Joss would do something as making Riley a vampire. It just seems as being a
little too obvious to me."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Not really when you consider part of why he left town..... -- Rufus,
13:35:44 12/28/01 Fri
Remember Riley just left...he never dealt with his addiction to vampire bites...and just because the
vamp hookers are in a business doesn't mean accidents don't happen....:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: you mean you don't want to see him...(spoilers?) -- VampRiley,
15:10:54 12/28/01 Fri
One VampRiley is enough for me and I'm glad I'm him. Also, making him a vamp just seems a little
too predictable.
One constant in both shows is the presence of vampires. Why not make him one?
It just a little on the side of repitition. Ford was someone who Buffy was crazy about and he became
a vamp. I know the whole robot girlfriend things was also repeated, but neither lasted long. And the
whole idea of having a lover of Buffy's turn into the bad guy, to me, would feel like a let down and
seem kind of boring. It' been done. Do something different.
VR
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> More spec on this spoiler (um, spoilers) -- darrenK, 15:41:58 12/27/01 Thu
You are right that Riley could come back as anything––a reindeer demon, a robot, a lot of
things.
And, while it's true that the writers avoid the obvious, they also do a great job of building up to
whatever the plot twist is, so that when you watch old reruns you realize that the "plot
twist" was being foreshadowed for a long time, usually years in the very well plotted
Jossverse.
It's for this reason that I think the Spoiler Slayer spoilers are correct and that Riley will go vamp.
His rivalry with Angel, his fear of being just a normal joe after having his implant removed, his
"affair" with the vampire prostitute, and his knowledge of Buffy's attraction to vamps, all
point to him wanting to be one, rather than a slog demon for which I could think of no possible
foreshadowing.
(Riley as a Slog demon, or anything else that stops him from being Captain Goody Two-Shoes would
be cool .)
; )
dK
ATPoZine Quarterly & ponderings --
Solitude1056, 21:53:49 12/25/01 Tue
Okay, I've dealt with four large meals in four days (courtesy of the nuclear family, dammit) and
while I'm probably going to be digesting for the next three days, I figure as long as I'm awake, I'll go
ahead and drop a line about the Quarterly.
First, I have one column already, and just got an article submission idea from Humanitas. I haven't
gotten anything from anyone else, so here's hoping that everyone else summarily forgot about letting
us know what they're writing, and decided instead to just send the stuff. I'd prefer a head's up if you
are writing something, just so LS, Marie & I have some idea of the upcoming load o'
submissions. Obviously, if you're not writing anything, then disregard previous transmission. ;-
)
On that note, I've not heard or seen much for the past month about the Quarterly except for a few
posts on the board and one or two emails. Remember, the email address for all things quarterly is
atpozine@yahoo.com, if you can't find the info page (which I still have to update, natch). I think it's
www.ivyweb.com/btvs/zine.htm, but I'm not positive. My favorites are toast, so I'm a little clueless on
the URLs that normally I'd have bookmarked. (I got hit by one of the trans virii, and ended up
having to do a full rebuild on the only machine with internet access. A week without internet access
feels like going without an arm, nowadays.)
That said, I'm curious as to who on the board still wants to see even an online version of the
Quarterly. I don't know what my time is going to look like this upcoming spring, since my company's
shutting down soonly and I asked to be in the first wave of layoffs, cause I'm going back to school.
Gonna do that advanced degree stuff, finally... but I'm doing a heavy class load, so I'm not sure how
many braincells I'll have to spare. And if doing the Quarterly requires me doing the cheerleading
thing each and every day on the board, then I'm not sure it's going to work. Not trying to be snippy,
just honest.
So, think about it - do you want the quarterly in truncated form (online only), or just online as a test
drive and then push for the print version, or is it ally-samey to you, and continued essay additions
would be just fine? I'd like to hear from as many folks as possible, since everyone's input (readers
and writers alike) will help us decide, as a group, what we want to do with the idea. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: ATPoZine Quarterly & ponderings -- Dedalus, 07:35:46 12/26/01 Wed
No, that was good and honest, with minimum snip. :-)
Argh, I should have had something in myself already, but I have been so tied up literary wise. One
thing after another after another. However, I still certainly planned on having something in before
the due date. I have an outline done and I was going to work on it the rest of the week. So still count
me in, unless I get hit by a truck or something between now and Saturday.
Also, mundi said he sent an article in, so I don't know whether you got that or not.
I was getting so good about not procrastinating, but this has been one crazy, albeit good, Christmas
season. I would like to see the Quarterly get off the ground, and I think most people who were
interested would. I can see why you would not want to play the role of cheerleader, but I just
assumed everything was proceeding like it was suppose to.
BTW, saw LOTR, and did like it better than the book. :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Glad you enjoyed it, Ded! -- mm, 15:40:50 12/26/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: ATPoZine Quarterly & ponderings -- mm, 13:11:38 12/26/01 Wed
(I'm assuming the column you mentioned was my own....)
For the record, I'm definitely down with the original Quarterly plan -- do the first issue online, and
see how it goes. Much as I would love to see a printed issue down the road, my gut feeling tells me
that a regular online 'zine would be a more realistic plan. (Could be wrong, of course.) Which is fine
by me, but I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Hey! Sol! -- Rufus, 02:19:44 12/28/01 Fri
Where do I send you what I have so far? Mail me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> send it to atpozine@yahoo.com ;-) -- Solitude1056, 19:41:04 12/28/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Thanks, done......... -- Rufus, 20:28:46 12/28/01 Fri
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[> Re: ATPoZine Quarterly & ponderings -- Humanitas, 10:03:40 12/28/01 Fri
I'm all for going to a hard-copy version, assuming that our work merits it. ;) My vote is that we
proceed with the original plan: put the first issue up on-line, and see where we want to go from
there.
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[> [> Re: I pretty much have my doubts -- Dedalus, 15:27:38 12/28/01 Fri
If at this late date we only have what, one article in, for heaven's sake. I don't know how this will
work. I would think they would be piling up by now, but this group can be rather reticent when it
wants to be.
As for mine, after trying like hell to beat out an essay for the past few days and coming up with
about half of one that is disjointed, forced, and more or less lame, it suddenly dawns on me that I
can't write to a theme. I just can't write to a theme at all. The material has to be working on me, and
right now I feel about as un-Buffy inspired as a person can possibly be. Also, I just can't get the
length right now matter how hard I try. And frankly I'm getting really irritated. When I say
"beat it out," I mean that as literally as you're willing to take it.
So if we've moved on from people no longer having the time or the interest to do it, than that is that.
I am no longer on top of this because it's not my party anymore. I know nothing about the Quarterly
scene, any way you want to slice it. If we've gone from my original book idea to a printed version of a
magazine to an online version of it than I have to ask what's the point? This is going to be a lot of
work for no one to turn a profit off of, and if we're going from the possible ten whole cents a printed
issue for the respective authors to absolutely nothing on an online one, then for god's sake, just
submit the stuff to Liq's site, and that will be that.
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[> [> [> Profit is *not* the purpose. -- Solitude1056, 19:29:53 12/28/01 Fri
True, we're not a sweetly altruistic bunch, willing to give our hard-earned pennies to the rubbish bin
just so we have a printed version, but come on. Money isn't all there is - it's certainly never been my
motivation. Honestly, the point isn't to make money or even to make a name for anyone... the point is
to disseminate long essays, gathering everyone under a common umbrella, in a way we don't have
room space or time to do here. The posting board is great if your essays/posts cap out at about 1500
words, plus it tends to be one person posting, with others responding.
The idea of a theme is a way to cohesively organize a series of presentations or essays - like a printed
conference - so that we can all see and read each other's explications with plenty of room to stretch
our literary/philosophical legs. An online or printed journal would give us that room, plus it wouldn't
discriminate based on someone's collegiate level like most academic journals do. Our only
requirement is that you have something new to say, and can present it intelligently - hell, we even
have volunteers ready to help you edit it for coherence, if needed.
So I'd guess that you're just frustrated, Ded, cause what you're saying sounds kinda like the next
step is to say that if money/recognition isn't involved, what's the point in even posting here, and I
don't think that's the implicit conclusion you intended. But I can answer it, anyway: because there's
a whole bunch of people here who like conversations that don't consistent entirely of statements like
"spike is kewl." ;-) Now it's just up to everyone to consider whether or not those
conversations are enough to warrant organizing our otherwise haphazard essayists into a combined
unit.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Sigh -- Dedalus, 08:27:02 12/29/01 Sat
In terms of length and gathering everyone together under a common umbrella, I was merely pointing
out we already have the other site for that. I'm surprised more people here haven't taken advantage
of it. And that doesn't involve profit or much recognition either, but it's already there, especially if
people aren't going to have lots of extra time to work on other things.
"Our only requirement is that you have something new to say, and can present it
intelligently" - well, that's what I'm having issues with. I'm not debating the merits of having a
theme, and I know what it is there to do. I'm just saying at this present time I am getting nowhere
with it. I should be able to, but for whatever dumb reason, I'm not.
It's still a good idea, but if only two or three people are hip to it, I don't see how it is ever going to
come together.
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[> Re: ATPoZine Quarterly & ponderings -- LadyStarlight, 19:30:40 12/28/01 Fri
I think the second draft version of the original plan is the most feasible, ie, try the online version,
gauge the interest and then go for a print copy (if only so I have something to show my relatives
when they say "So, what have you been up to?" ;))
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[> [> what, like the hooligans don't take up enough of your time? ;-) -- Solitude1056, 19:38:54
12/28/01 Fri
An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship
(very, very, very long!) -- Nina, 22:01:30 12/25/01 Tue
FOREWORDS
I've been wondering whether I should post this "essay" or not. I really wrote it for myself,
but Aquitaine, who hasn't read the essay yet, insisted that I shared it with all of you. "Think
about those who don't dare to post", she told me. So here I am. But be warned, it's wacky and it
might not please everyone!
Last time I talked with Aquitaine, we had a long discussion about Spike and Buffy. She asked me a
lot of questions I had no answers to. The next day my mind started spinning and spinning and I
came with answers. Not the way I wanted them to come to me, but answers nevertheless. My mind
really didn't give me a lot of space to work this out. It just spilled information and I was trying to jot
it down as fast as I could. I've been writing about this for days now, trying to make as much sense as
I can with the 30 pages I wrote on my spiral book. It's long, but I really tried to keep it compact,
believe me.
Spoilers until "Wrecked" only.
------------------------
INTRODUCTION
I've been very surprised that the sex happened so soon in "Smashed. The first S/B coupling
happens exactly when Spike tells Buffy he can fight her again. At that precise moment, they start to
fight and they have sex. The move to upgrade their relationship to lover status made me think that
Buffy has been waiting for that moment for a long time (unconsciously). It also made me think that
Spike's "neutered" status was the reason why she was so mean to him during season 5.
Spike used to be dangerous. He used to be a worthy enemy. Then he became a liability and an
impotent. Spike had to got his rocks back with her to even stand a chance to get her.
Buffy: The Slayer/Vampire relationship
We know that vampires and slayer are sexual metaphors. On one hand, the vampires penetrate their
victims with their teeth, biting them into a mortal embrace. On the other hand, the slayer's stake is
a sexual form for a penis and every time Buffy stakes a vamp she impales them through their hearts.
Night after night she's having casual sex with them. The sex according to a slayer. She sees them,
she stakes/has sex with them and moves on. That's the dance Spike is referring to. Vampires and
slayer dance together until one of them dies. Only Buffy never dies from those fights. She is like the
Black widow. The spider that kills her one night stands.
Buffy's whole conflict rises from the fact that she is not only a slayer. She is a slayer AND Buffy. She
can't just wear a slayer outfit at night and put it back in the closet when she is regular Buffy. The
attraction the slayer feels, Buffy feels it too. But the attraction that would be enough for the slayer
can't satisfy regular Buffy completely. She needs love too. Love based on something deeper than
sexual attraction. Buffy who doesn't want to merge with her slayer persona represses the attraction.
She pushes it all back to an unconscious level. There she can feel safe and believe that regular Buffy
only needs love.
Kendra represents Buffy and Faith's middle. She shows us what happens when a slayer is raised like
an automaton that is cut from any sexual desire or love. She's a solitaire and Mr. Pointy becomes a
metaphor for masturbation. That's all she has left.
Faith on the other hand represents Buffy's antithesis. She gets off with the fighting. She merges
completely with her slayer persona (until it even destroys the regular Faith in her). Faith gets the
attraction and accepts it, but denies love. As long as Buffy and Faith deny one part of their
personality, they can't be happy.
It isn't a coincidence that Buffy's first love is a vampire. When Buffy falls for Angel, her body
recognizes him before her mind knows who he really is. She loves him for his kindness and what he
represents to her (a first prince-charming/mysterious love) but I think she is also attracted to the
vampire in him. She kisses him while he is vamped in "What's my line part 1" and gets
off on his biting her in "Graduation Day". She accepts and needs the whole deal.
Angel and Buffy could have been lovers forever. But there was one big problem. Angel couldn't
satisfy her sexually without turning into a wild best that killed her friends. Angel understood that.
He could give her the love regular Buffy needed, but he couldn't satisfy the slayer sexually. Their
relationship was doomed for that reason.
Spike: The Vampire/Slayer relationship
Normal vampires are afraid of the slayer. They flee from her. The reckless ones try to take her on in
a dance of death, but it's rare. Spike is an exception to the rule. As soon as he hears about the slayer
he looks out for her: "There's glory, there's death and sod all else". Killing slayers
becomes his Holy Grail. The bravest thing a vamp can attempt to do.
But Spike, like Buffy, has an inner conflict. He feels the attraction with the slayer because he is a
vampire, but his human side craves for love as well. Buffy denies the slayer in her. Spike denies the
human William in him. As the Big Bad, he is under Dru's influence and his human side, which needs
love, has to remain repressed.
To impress his lady love Spike finds his first slayer during the Boxer rebellion, he fights her, drinks
her, gets off with her blood. That kill wasn't about flirting, it was about killing. It took him 77 years
to find another slayer to kill. What took him so long? According to Spike he knew all along that it
would be better to f*ck a slayer than to kill one. When he said those words in "Wrecked"
the words themselves were important, but the way he said them gave us even more hints to his inner
psyche. It was a revelation. He said those words as if he finally got an answer to his prayers. Maybe
his good day with the first slayer wasn't such a good day after all. He got respect from his gang, but
he didn't get to f*ck the slayer. He didn't let his human side connect with the slayer. Whatever
happened between 1900 and 1977, Spike approaches the new slayer differently.
The second fight is not about the blood. It's about flirting. He is looking for something more this
time. The NY slayer is hot and he dances with her. He straddles her, but something is amiss, she is
not what he is looking for. He doesn't even drink her. He just kills her like a broken doll. A toy that
can't give him what he needs… until Buffy comes along…
SPIKE AND BUFFY: THE EVOLUTION OF THEIR ATTRACTION AND LOVE
Warning!
I believe that all the emotions I'm describing bellow are real, but repressed on an unconscious level.
Buffy doesn't acknowledge her attraction to Spike and represses her feelings because if she isn't
ready to merge with the slayer in her yet. As for Spike he doesn't deny the attraction like Buffy does,
but he denies the love he has for her. Accepting what he really feels means that he has to deal with
his human side and he isn't ready for that until OomM.
From "School Hard" to "Surprise"
JM's really played Spike's attraction to Buffy in "School Hard". It is obvious that this
slayer is different for him. He can't even wait St-Vigeous to take her on. It's interesting to note that
the first time Spike sees Buffy she is not in slayer mode. She dances sexily with Xander. She's very
feminine and before he even sees her fight he his entranced. Buffy was probably the only slayer he
saw with such light and life in her heart. From that moment he becomes the bug flying around her
light, looking for enlightenment (very unconsciously at first). As far as cheating goes, we can say that
Spike cheated on Dru well before she did cheat on him with Angelus. Spike's mind was all about
Buffy as soon as he saw her. I'd even say that he fell in love with her light right then.
When Spike arrives in town, he is not the regular kind of vampire Buffy meets in the cemetery every
night. They don't have a usual slayer/vampire relationship (stake and dust!) Spike doesn't fit her one
night stand type. There's mutual respect. They are valuable enemies that know how to fight. And
they both like it that way: "I'd rather fight you anyway" (WmL2) . I think it's mostly due
to the fact that Spike first appears to Buffy with his human face in "School hard". Except
for Angel, it's probably the first time Buffy is seeing the real face of a vampire. There's honesty from
the start. Spike is also resilient and therefore he catches her attention. A kind of "um, if I can't
just stake/have casual sex with him he may be more".
For Spike it's love at first sight, for Buffy it's only the slayer who is aroused. Buffy can't love Spike as
long as he can't show love to the regular Buffy (not the Big Bad type of love, but sweetness and
comfort).
During these episodes they don't bond. They only size each other. It's all about the kill.
From "Becoming II" to "Harsh Light of Day"
That's their first pre-chip bonding time. When they fight, they always talk about their lovers. That's
the way they bond: they bond over their relationship problems. There's a lot of sexual tension and
jealousy about the other's partner.
In "Becoming II", Buffy has her first meaningful talk with Spike. It's funny how they
seem both jealous from the other's ex-lover. Buffy calls Dru a ho and Spike wants to put Angel in the
bloody ground. When Joyce catches them, they lie like lovers trying to cover their affair. They are
bonding, but it's only a start ; when it's time to save Buffy, Spike doesn't care enough to stay.
* What's already there behind the attraction: They fight together against a mutual enemy and it
looks natural (like it was for Joan and Randy). Buffy trusts Spike enough to invite him in her home.
She also already gives him the responsibility to protect a member of her family (Giles as
father).
In "lover's walk", there's a lot of sexual tension when they meet again. She threatens him
with the stake (penis), then strangles him with one hand and holds his lower belly with the other.
Their conversation looks like one ex-lover would have: "You shouldn't have come back
Spike". We know from FFL that Spike is covered with the Slayer. He probably came back to
Sunnydale for her. But it's still on an unconscious level. Spike wants Dru back, because for him too
it's easier to deny how he feels.
* What's already there behind the attraction: . Spike's ability to understand how Buffy feels is
already present and she recognizes it: "I can't fool myself or Spike for some reason".
In "Harsh Light of Day", they meet like ex-lovers again. "Sort of a double
date", Spike offers. They look at their mutual lovers and mocks the other on their choice. The
slayer in Buffy is pissed off that Harmony got to Spike before her, so she rams the memory of Dru in
Spike's face: "What's the matter Spike, Dru dumped you again?". Their final fight is very
sexual. They both end up with their hands on the stake: "Do it again, it tickles, in a good
way". Spike's jealous of Parker and hurts Buffy emotionally as much as he can.
* What's already there behind the attraction: They share things in common. They share the same
pain of being dumped by the loved one. They are both strong. They are Ying and Yang in their
energy. In HloD they are as equal as they can be. They will have to wait until "Smashed"
before that kind of balance comes back again.
"Pangs" and "Something Blue"
The sexual tension boils as they are forced to bond on a day-to-day basis.
"Pangs" changes everything. What used to be an equal battle becomes an unfair fight.
Spike is chipped and the chip makes him impotent to Buffy's eyes. The chip's sexual metaphor is
played from the beginning and proves how it affects Spike not only in his food habits, but also on his
ability to get to Buffy. Neutered he has no chance at all. He only gets invited to Giles' when Willow
exposes his inability to perform. Buffy ridicules him and laughs at him. She makes him feel
inadequate sexually. But there's also a lot of touching and bantering. While Angel is on the outside,
Spike is inside now.
In "Something Blue" Willow's spell forces in the open what lied in the shadow. When
they are engaged they continue to act the same way they always do around the other, except that the
attraction is in the open instead of being repressed. It can't be nice because Spike has not accepted
his human side yet and Buffy is not in love with Spike yet.
Hush to Primeval (with the exception of Superstar)
Once the spell is broken, Buffy is forced back to reality. Spike is neutered. His strength has
vanished. He's useless. Spike has no love to offer to the regular Buffy and no sexual capacity to
seduce the slayer in her. As Spike doesn't exist anymore in her mind, she settles for the white-picket-
fence boyfriend that will give her the illusion of normality (and from that moment ignores Spike
almost for the rest of the season).
In "Doomed", Buffy is annoyed by Spike's presence: "It's not like he can fight or
anything" . He's worthless to her not only because he can't fight, but also because he can't keep
her on the edge like before, he can't satisfy her sexually.
In "Who are you" the sexual tension is brought back between Buffy and Spike (even if it's
not the real Buffy). Spike is aroused. In "Superstar" he gets back to Buffy, reminding her
that he will get her one day: "One of these days sweet slayer…" Next thing we know
Spike tries to lose the chip. As long as the chip is in his noggins there's no way for him to get to
Buffy. So Spike accepts Adam's offer and tricks Buffy in order to get to her. He fails and Buffy
continues to ignore him.
So what happens in season 5 that changes everything?
"Buffy Vs Dracula" to "Fool for Love"
There's been a lot of discussions about Buffy's "bitchy" ways with Spike. How she
punched him all the time while he couldn't defend himself. So what really started the let's-punch-
Spike phase? What happened that made her jump from ignoring him to punching him all the
time?
At the beginning of the fifth season, Buffy's relationship with white-picket-fence-perfect-normal
boyfriend is not going very well. The first minute of "Buffy Vs Dracula" confirms it. Buffy
cheats on Riley well before Riley cheats on her. She gets out of bed to stake/have casual sex with
vampires. She's leaving their bed like a woman who's trying to conceal an affair. And she's been
doing that ALL summer (that what she says to Giles). The hint here is that Buffy can't be satisfy
with only regular love. The slayer in her needs more and she's going to get her fix every night.
I wrote a long post during the summer hiatus about how Dracula made Buffy act so meanly with
Spike in the beginning of season 5. I think I got it wrong. I thought then that Buffy was afraid to be
bitten by Dracula. Afraid of the power of his thrall on her. I though that she felt raped by Drac and
that the similarities she saw between Spike and the count made her unleash her frustration on
Spike. That might be right for the regular Buffy in her, but not for the slayer.
In Giles' apartment, Buffy goes on an on about Dracula's accent and his penetrating eyes (two
attributes that make Spike so unique) and the fact that he came to Sunnydale to see her:
"Count famous heard of me". Buffy is not being mean to Spike because Dracula scared
her, she's pissed at him for being neutered and not being able to give her what she wants from him.
Now that her relationship with Riley is going down the well, she's reminded that she could have had
Spike if only he could "perform".
This starts the punch fest I believe. From that moment, Buffy reminds Spike that he's not worthy of
her. Every time Spike is vulnerable she's punching him ("real me" and "no place
like home"), when he shows he can fights vamps (beginning of OomM) she's also angry because
it reminds her that he can fight…. only not her. There's no way she would just throw insults at him
if the answer to her behavior wasn't running deep inside her. I think the slayer in her is just
desperate for Spike to lose the chip, be the vamp he once was. Be it only to get a good fight
By "Out of my Mind", Spike gets the revelation of his love for Buffy. Some people might
say it came out of nowhere. But I don't believe that. Something deep happened to Spike that made
him unable to lie to himself anymore. In the same way Spike was offered to get rid of the chip after
"Who are you", he gets another chance in that episode. And who gives him that chance
this time? Buffy herself. Buffy comes to Spike and tells him that her lover is not satisfying her slayer
side. He's weak and needs attention. Spike takes the tip for what it is: an invitation to get rid of the
chip. That's the only way he knows to get to her and satisfy the slayer in her (what Riley obviously
can't do).
It's interesting to note that in the Magic Box, before coming to see Spike, Buffy says to her friends:
"The guy is starting to bug me in that I-want-to-shove-something-pointy-through-his-heart
kinda way". She's using the sexual metaphor of the stake again. By coming to see Spike she's
unconsciously giving him the key to becoming the vampire she wants him to be.
I said earlier that Spike fell in love with Buffy's light as soon as he saw her. He's craving for that
light and I don't think it is a coincidence if Spike ends up to be literally bathed in light on the
operation table in OomM. We even get to see his blue eyes! He's stripped away from the mask. The
metaphor of the light on him is probably what came back into his dream. He says he wants to bathe
in the slayer's blood, but really what he wants is to bathe in her light. There's light on the operating
table, but there's also a lot of light in his crypt when Buffy comes in his dream. The walls are almost
white. Buffy is wearing white.
Spike's attempt at removing the chip fails and Spike can't even deny his love for Buffy anymore. He
is left with no other choice but to try to come to the regular Buffy. Change for her so he can be
worthy of her love. This is a hard road because it means that he has to accept the William side of
himself first. The "weak" side of himself. (Buffy even calls him "William" as
soon as she sees him back.)
Buffy's reaction is also very foretelling. Once she realizes what Spike has been doing with her
information (in OomM), she's preparing herself to go kill him. He's going to get her the fight she
wants. When he almost bites her she doesn't move or try to shove him away. Why? I think the slayer
in her has been waiting for that moment so long that she can't move. There's a lot of sexual tension
in that moment. She wants Spike. I don't think she wants him to kill her, but she wants the sexual
act that comes with the biting. Spike can't perform and leaves her with her weak normal boyfriend.
The slayer in her is frustrated. Next time she sees Spike she punches him on the nose. She doesn't
want to kill him, she's just angry because he got her hopes up and he didn't satisfy her.
In FFL, Spike tries to give her another fight. Buffy is aroused from that fight, but in the end she
reminds him that it's all a fake. She might want to dance, but she won't because he is beneath her.
He can't give her a real fight. He can't be her lover if he can't fight her. And as long as he is
neutered, he will be beneath her. He won't be her equal like he was pre-chipped. (The way Buffy's
panting around Spike in the alley, I wonder if the events in "Smashed" wouldn't have
happened sooner if Spike had been able to punch her then!)
At the end of FFL, Buffy doesn't react to Spike carrying a gun. Their relationship is not about killing
the other and she instinctively knows it. It's all about the dance. And they danced that night and she
felt the arousal. Spike sees her despair and offers his help. I believe that's when Buffy's has her own
revelation about her love for Spike. Buffy sees what we all saw: the softer side of Spike. The
comfortador. The caring man behind the mask. He reached for the first time to her heart. She talks
to him about his mother. She cries in front of him. From that moment she doesn't punch him
anymore except without having a good reason to do so.
Buffy is soon confronted to a new dilemma. The slayer in her might be attracted to Spike, but there's
no way regular Buffy can love a killer, a soulless demon. No matter how hard Spike tries to get to
her by changing his ways, she's resisting. He must remain a disgusting thing.
"Listen to Fear" to "Blood Ties"
This is a transition phase. Both Spike and Buffy know they are in love with each other. Buffy still
denies it and Spike is in stalker mode, not daring yet to expose his feelings. Their relationship is
stalling and they bond over the things that linked them outside of their mutual love/attraction. All
the things I mention in the * What's already there behind the attraction sections.
Spike and Buffy fight the Queller monster together in "Listening to fear". Spike reads
into Buffy's insecurities in "Checkpoint", Buffy gets to witness Spike's strength, his
virility and his ability to fight, even though he is chipped in "Into the Woods" (there's a
big close-up on Spike saying "I said keep it down" while he's rude to a vamp) and in
"Checkpoint" (Spike jumps from nowhere and dusts a vamp for her). Buffy ends up
trusting him with his family. "You're the only one strong enough to protect them". He's
strong enough to protect them, but not enough to be her man (not as long as he is chipped). And she
keeps reminding him that: "You're disgusting". Any excuse is good after all. In
"Blood Ties" Spike shows her honesty and doesn't take her crap. She likes that he takes
him along with her to look for Dawn. There she witnesses the soft side of Spike again: "You'll
find her".
"Crush "to "Intervention"
By "Crush", Spike has gained a little confidence from what they share in common. Buffy
trusted in him to protect her loved ones and they fought together against common enemies. He's
hoping to get some recognition but Buffy crushes his hopes by reminding him that he wasn't a good
fighter. She brings back to his face his inability to please her as a virile man. "Whatever you do
you can't have me as long as you have the chip in your head". To prove her point she flirts with
Ben with whom she has nothing in common. By talking with boring Ben, Buffy sends the message to
Spike that even a bland man has more chance to get to her than him. At least Ben could take her
sexually if she let him. While Spike is slowly trying to change and become a better man, Buffy
chooses to see the surface and the fact that he's impotent.
When Dawn tells Spike that Buffy doesn't know what she'll do if he loses the chip, Spike perks up:
"Is that right?". Why would the slayer not know what to do with a de-chipped vamp? She
should kill him. Pure and simple. Dawn breaks the walls by giving some hope to Spike and telling
him that Buffy might want him after all.
As soon as Dawn tells Buffy that Spike is in love with her, Buffy acts avoidy around Spike.
"Hit.Up. Gile". In the car she looks like a virgin on a first date (pretty much like Dawn in
"All the way") Dawn's words to Buffy gave Spike the upper hand. Spike loves her and she
has no weapons against that. Not yet at least. She's flustered around him until she gets the upper
hand again. Spike makes a romantic move by opening the door for her and Buffy takes advantage of
the situation.
The consequences of Spike's declaration are incredible. He crushes the shadows of her repressed
feelings. If Buffy truly didn't care about Spike, she would have said something similar to what she
said to Xander in "Prophecy girl". But her reaction is revealing more than she wants to:
"Oh my god! Are you out of your mind?". Buffy needs weapons to shut him off. The
attraction the slayer feels must stay repressed. The love regular Buffy feels must be crushed. She
grabs any weapon she can find in her mind: "You're like a serial killer in prison",
"Angel had a soul"… Any reason not to reveal that she might want him to. The problem
is that now Spike is not talking about attraction, but love. He's not talking only to the slayer, but to
the woman. If Buffy admits she has feelings for him, that she loves Spike back, it means she has to
be one with the slayer inside her and she can't do that yet. Not to say that Spike soft side is
interesting, but way too underdeveloped at that point to risk the pain.
Rejected, Spike accepts Dru's offer to go back to his old ways. The way the episode ends shows us
that even in the Bronze, Spike wasn't with Dru to stay with her, but to use her to get Buffy. He can't
get to her when he is neutered and sensitive so he'll show her the vamp he once was, the vamp he
was when she used to respect him.
He takes control, chains her, and tries to play the virile part as much as he can, but nothing works.
"I'm at the end of my bleeding tether". Sensitive or bad ass, all he gets is a door in the
face. No wonder he's confused.
So what's left for Spike to get her attention? He goes on her turf at a college party and flirts with her.
He plays the sexual card. Reminds her that it's how it all started. He uses his deep voice, talks about
his tight hot little body. To drive his point home he tries to make her jealous. Buffy looks at him and
it works for a moment. But Spike ends up on the lawn. Thrown away by everyone, even the SG.
He has nothing left but to have a fake Buffy to give him his sweet release. "You're the big
bad", says the robot. All his interactions with the robot are a way to regain some nobility, find
back the man he once was when the chip wasn't in. No wonder that the first thing he does with the
bot is to fight her. He wants the bot to be his equal (once she's on top, then they change position).
Once he finally feels virile again he can be sweet with the bot and show what he really is behind
everything.
It's interesting that Buffy cancels her date with Ben in the same episode Spike played his last card
with her. Now Buffy has no more need for Ben. He was just a convenient guy to piss off Spike. If
Spike is out of her life she doesn't need Ben anymore.
By "Intervention", There's a new revelation. Spike's action forces Buffy to step back from
her shadow and look at Spike for the first time. He's neutered. She can't have him, but she kisses
him sweetly on the lips. That's regular Buffy showing her love. She acknowleges his effort to get to
her heart. By resisting torture, Spike showed Buffy that it's not all about the fight and being virile,
it's also about being able to endure a fight, endure torture.
After that moment, Buffy includes Spike in the SG. She listens to his advice, she lets him fight
beside her. She knows she can trusts him with Dawn's life. He's still neutered, he can't give her what
the slayer needs, but she respects him and treats him like a man. There's just no time for more.
Season 6
When Buffy is brought back, she only responds to Spike. He's the only one she wants contact with.
Why is Buffy so entranced with Spike? He is showing her respect and comfort. The Buffy side of her
is touched. Spike also reminds her that he too had to crawl is way out of his coffin. The slayer side of
her is also touched. She can connect with him completely. She can start to consider him as her
man.
By "Life Serial" Buffy is ready for more. The slayer is attracted to Spike and Buffy is in
love with him. She knocks herself unconscious hoping Spike will take advantage of her. When he
doesn't, she's offended. She looks at his belt and spit the old insult: "neutered vampire".
Now that her heart is touched she's reminded that he can't satisfy the slayer in her. No wonder she's
pissed at him.
Even though she is always reminded that Spike is neutered, something inside her is just melting in
his presence. She's disoriented in "All the way" when she misinterprets his words for an
invitation to sex. He really represents all she wants: comfort and strength. She grants him a
"good fight" at the end of the episode and looks at him go with regrets. If only he could
"perform"!
Now that Spike is not bothering her with words of love, Buffy is the one making all the advances.
She first tries to get him by getting drunk, then she compliments him on his fighting skills
(acknowledging that he is well wired!), the third time she comes to see him on a private call, wearing
a skirt. She's almost naked in her desire and misinterprets his words once again.
Spike who remained in passive mode for the first six episode of the season is forced to sing his love
again. Contrary to Buffy who is acting on an unconscious level, Spike brings everything on the open.
Buffy flies away from him. Hurt in her pride for being rejected.
At the end of "Once more with feelings", Buffy is at the end of her tether. It's either live
or die. She can't die, because Spike won't let her so Buffy kisses him. He is the only person who
makes her feel something. His love is the fire she is missing. "It isn't real" , she sings. It
can't be real as long as Spike is neutered. Buffy is ready for him on every level. She loves the man he
is, she loves the way he fights. She just needs him to lose the chip. She needs him to become her
equal again.
The problem is that Buffy isn't honest with the way she approaches Spike. She sends signals
unconsciously but isn't ready to deal with the consequences. On an unconscious level everything is
clear. She knows what she wants from him. But to acknowledge it means that she accepts that her
slayer side needs a vampire. She has to make the final move to merge the slayer and Buffy together.
She's not ready for that yet. So she keeps denying what happened.
Spike pushes Buffy to admit her feelings. She punches him (didn't do that since "Crush"!)
and insults him. Her Buffy side is afraid of what her love for Spike means, and the slayer side is
pissed at him because he can't give her what she needs. That's why she used to punch him last year
and that's why she punches him again. "I kiss you, I'm ready for you, why can't you just take
me?"
The answer comes fast. We have a close-up on Spike's face and eyes. The chip is out. Spike knows
what it means. Now he's ready to take her. Be her man right to the end. Spike goes on the prowl,
needs to become the vampire Buffy knew. The vampire she had respect for. Poor Spike needs to give
himself a pep talk to do so. He doesn't even want to go there anymore. He knows that if he is the
vamp he once was he will get the slayer part of Buffy, but he will lose her love. Warren reminds him
that by saying: " you don't just kill the Fett and walk away. Man, you're not coming back from
that".
When Spike learns that the chip works fine he is the first one to say that there's nothing wrong with
him. He needs the chip to keep Buffy's love, but he needed the chip not to work with Buffy in order to
please her slayer side. He's having a real Christmas gift here. He can keep being sober and be a man
for Buffy.
What is his first reaction? He prepares himself to have sex with Buffy. He knows that's what she's
waiting for. The cut scene from the shooting script meant to show that. Spike is not neutered
anymore and he's sexually ready to take her on. He changes his T-shirt, wears jewelry. He's
preparing for a date, calls her and waits. No wonder he is pissed off when she doesn't show up.
Meanwhile Buffy tries to compare her feelings for Spike to an addiction. Buffy is used to make
excuses for the way she feels about Spike. She really isn't ready to deal with her feelings yet. When
Spike calls she's surprised. She used to wait for Parker to call and Spike calls her before they even
have sex! She's flustered again and misinterprets his words for an invitation to sex once again! Buffy
can hardly hide her desire and need for Spike to her friends.
Buffy finally arrives in the alley and Spike confronts her (an alley like in School Hard when they
first met!). He makes sure to piss her off first so he doesn't have to start the fight. He wants her to
initiate their sexual intercourse. For Spike it's revenge time. She insulted him for 2 whole years
since he's been chipped, now he's the one sending poison back: "You came back wrong".
He doesn't know that, but he makes the assumption and revels in his victory to hurt her.
Why Buffy is not more interested in these words? Hello! Spike is available and virile again! They are
equals. Now she can have sex with him. Even though the fight is real and the punches are real, it's
not a fight to death. It's a fight that mirrors their verbal sparring. They both bring to light their
similarities. They are both lost, not fitting anywhere. Their last exchange before they have sex is also
a mirror image of what happened in FFL. Spike asked Buffy: "oh, did I scare you?". In
"Smashed" Spike asks: "Are you afraid I'm gonna…". The first time Buffy
insults him because he is neutered, the second time she engages sex with him because he finally
can.
While Buffy kisses Spike, Spike is already removing his belt. We discussed this particular scene with
Aquitaine and there isn't surprise in Spike's eyes when Buffy impales him. He knew what was going
to happen all along. I believe that his eyes at that particular moment match his "I knew, I
knew…" speech. Here is the revelation he is talking about the next morning. He finally found
his Holy Grail.
As for Buffy she doesn't hesitate one bit. She knows what she wants, she knows that Spike can give
it to her now and she takes it. She lets her mind in the closet and just listens to what she feels. The
morning after the closet opens and Buffy's moral ambiguities and dilemmas are thrown back in her
face. What are those dilemmas? Spike was a good lover. He made her feel something and it was good
("no matter how good it feels" she said to Willow). And that's not only the slayer who
wants him, but Buffy too. She loves that man and she's afraid of what that means. She can't bring
him into the light with her. It means she has to accept the slayer in her. Always the same tune!
Buffy used to touch Spike all the time (hold him by his T-shirt, fighting him, punching him), but now
she can't touch him anymore. She is like silly putty in Spike's hands. Every time he touches her she's
melting. She can't get enough of him. She can't touch him in his crypt because she knows that she
won't be able to resist him. She hangs garlic to her windows and holds a cross to keep him physically
away from her. Buffy insists that it's not love. She has no more excuses to throw to his face. Only
this last one. And it isn't even true.
SO WHERE DO THEY GO FROM HERE?
I believe that Spike and Buffy's attraction is based on the pattern of the mating dance. Women are
looking for men who will be able to protect the little pack of children they will breed. Men are
attracted to women who will have the ability to bear their children and bring life. Buffy is looking for
someone to take care of her family with her, someone with strong arms that can make her feel safe
when she needs to get out from slayer mode. Spike on the other end is looking for someone who is an
equal, someone who can also bring the life back in him. He needs the slayer in Buffy, but he mostly
needs Buffy herself: "Just be Buffy".
Now that they had sex and indulged their vampire/slayer attraction, they can slowly start to build
something based on deeper feelings. They had to get their sweet release first. Smash the sexual
tension that grew through the years. What do they have left? What was there all along since they've
known each other, the same thing that was there between Joan and Randy: partnership. Joan and
Randy didn't act on their vampire/slayer needs, they weren't even attracted to each other. But they
fought well together.
Before typing my final ".", I leave you with this:
In "Intervention" , Spike boinks the robot.
Result = he gets a first sweet release with a false Buffy and is forgiven by the real one because he
protected Dawn. It's the end of is obsession with Buffy. He respects her and she starts to treat him
like a man.
In "Wrecked", Spike has sex with the real Buffy.
Result = She comes to him and asks him to save Dawn from danger. Spike says that he doesn't need
to stall time to be with her anymore because things have changed. They have an equal relationship
now and they can start building something from there.
I don't dare to ask where you think it's all going. I'm spoiler-free so if you want to share please just
mention the (no-spoiler) in your title!
Thanks so much for having read the whole thing!
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[> Do we have too much time on our hands? Even Freud said a cigar is sometimes just a cigar. --
Lecktor, 22:13:20 12/25/01 Tue
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[> Thanks Nina.............. -- Rufus, 22:26:15 12/25/01 Tue
Printed it off so I can go have a read.....and think up a spoiler free response......I'm just full of
spoilers....:):):)
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[> Calls to... arms (no spoilers) -- Aquitaine, 23:21:18 12/25/01 Tue
Yay! I'm glad you took the time to go back over all that territory to set up your thoughts about what
you call the 'early sex' - or should that be 'late sex'? - between Spike and Buffy.
I'm particularly interested in the way you see Buffy as a pro-active (or at least active) participant in
this relationship right from the start. I'm starting to think you may be right (particularly regarding
S5) and that, for a long time now, Buffy has been pointing out ways in which Spike needs to dare I
say 'bone up' in order to measure up to her standards. Her punching him at every turn always
seemed curiously out of character to me. You interpret these punches as more than mere irritation-
releasers and cast them more concretely as sexual invitations, true 'calls to arms' ;-) Again, I like
how your vision empowers Buffy as a woman and a character. It brings to mind the only (yeah,
right!) line from S5 that really gave and gives me pause re: the viability of S/B:
"You say you hate it, but you won't leave."
Granted, these are Spike's words but I still find myself wondering: What's Buffy doing inside
Spike?
And you all have dirty minds! lol.
Seriously, this brings me back to the question (one of several) I asked Nina a few days back. What
exactly is Buffy 'extracting' from Spike or 'The Spike Experience' that she needs to keep going back
for more?
- Aquitaine
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[> [> Re: Calls to... arms (no spoilers) -- Brian, 04:23:23 12/26/01 Wed
Nina, terrific essay. Your POV was very refreshing and original. You've made me look at the B/S
relationship with more hope that they will find some sort of balance in their lives to make it work for
each other.
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[> Re: An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship (very, very, very long!) -- Cactus Watcher,
07:34:20 12/26/01 Wed
Nina: When everyone was telling us where they live the other day, I wondered why you hadn't
posted. I'm glad you're still with us.
It's not the kind of essay I would write, nor do I necessarily agree with some of its premises about
sex. But, having said that, I think you've done a fine job in presenting your arguments and it was
well worth reading. Thanks to you for posting it, and thanks to Aquitaine for asking you to.
As an aside, when Xander finally gets up the courage to ask Buffy for a date with him at the end of
season one, he doesn't exactly ask her to go out with him. He tells her, he wants to dance with her.
She flatly refuses. I wonder if the idea of slaying vampires being a "sexual dance" wasn't
born in Joss' head at the moment he wrote the scene between Buffy and Xander. Of course, as you
point out, At the beginning of the next season, Buffy does dance with Xander almost having sex with
him in the process. That 'almost' is very important, because it leaves everyone who witnesses the
moment, including Xander and Angel, bewildered as to what is going on.
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[> [> Goodbye words to all of you! -- Nina, 08:44:44 12/26/01 Wed
* Aquitaine said: "What exactly is Buffy 'extracting' from Spike or 'The Spike Experience' that
she needs to keep going back for more?"
Just can get enough, do you? I write a 15 page essay and you manage to ask questions again? ;) I will
never be able to mesure up to your standards! It's no use. :)
Seriously, I guess it all depends on how people are looking at the S/B relationship! I personaly think
(until we have further answers) that Buffy is attracted to Spike on two levels. The slayer recognizes
a valiant warrior (not the regular one night stand) and Buffy herself is attracted to him for his inner
qualities. It'd be enough for any woman to come back to someone they love! ;) I could have
summarize the essay like this, but I needed to go in details for personal reasons.
While drawing the parallel between Buffy's inner struggle and my life I came to a realisation last
night. It's all about the journey. The journey to acceptance. Accepting our mission in life. Buffy has
still to accept it and her relationship with Spike only underlines her own battle to become unified
with the slayer in her.
* Cactus Watcher said: "Nina: When everyone was telling us where they live the other day, I
wondered why you hadn't posted. I'm glad you're still with us."
Oops! I didn't read that thread. That's why you didn't see me there. I've been avoiding message
boards lately because every time I read something I get spoiled. There's no way to get around it now.
There's no place to go to share our views with unspoiled people! That's life and I accept it.
That's why this is unfortunately my last thread. I have decided to keep unspoiled and my only choice
is not to visit this board anymore. This saddens me very much, but I tried to come as much as could
during the first part of the season. Now it's just impossible anymore. Spoilers are everywhere like a
plague.
I wish you all a lovely time!!! Sincerly! Before leaving, I want to say a special thanks to my
"Godmother" (Aquitaine) and "Godfather" (Brian) for being so welcoming
when I posted my first thread last year! Is it a coincidence that you are both responding to my last
thread? :)
Thanks Masquerade for your site and this wonderful message board! I will miss you all! :)
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[> [> [> Re: Goodbye words to all of you! -- Shaglio, 10:11:50 12/27/01 Thu
I had a thought, but I don't know if it's possible or if it will cost more money and I know Masq is on
vacation. But what if we created another board (an offshoot of this one) that will deal solely with
Spoilers for the future. That way nobody accidentally reads something they don't want to. We can
still have speculation here and the regular spoilers for the latest episode that other people may not
have seen yet, but the 3-episodes-down-the-road spoilers can be posted on the other board. We can
name it something snazzy like Trollup Central or something.
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[> [> [> [> This would be easy to do, Shaglio! (NB: NEED FEEDBACK) -- Wisewoman,
17:43:33 12/27/01 Thu
These discussion boards on voy.com are very easy to put up--I have one connected with my own
site.
If there's a general consensus that we should have a separate board for spoilers, it can be
accomplished within minutes. I like your idea for a name as well, "Trollop Central"
LOL!
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Trollop Central... -- Deeva, 21:46:38 12/27/01 Thu
makes me think of Lily Tomlin in her phone operator voice (very pinched) "Trollop Central,
what spoiler can I connect you to?" *g*
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I'd love it :) :) :) -- Nina, 15:32:46 12/28/01 Fri
It would be lovely! A wonderful compromise. If "spoiler trollups" love the idea, it would
give me the opportunity to stay here!
Thanks for prrposing the idea Shaglio!
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[> [> [> [> [> Hmmm a seperate board for Trollups, sounds fun...;) -- Rufus, 02:20:46
12/28/01 Fri
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[> I agree with a lot of your points...... -- AurraSing, 07:56:04 12/26/01 Wed
Particularily the part about Buffy not being able to f**k Spike until he had some of his power
back.......
Well done!!
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[> Brava! -- rowan, 08:41:14 12/26/01 Wed
Nina, this essay is full of so many wonderfully articulated, profound insights. And you know that I
agree with you. ;) ME is finally showing us a relationship for Buffy that can be healthy for her. In
Intervention, BUffy went on her vision quest because she felt as if she was turning to stone inside;
being the Slayer was hardening her. The First Slayer told Buffy that she's full of blinding love, but
she will harden if she pulls away from it. Only by embracing the fire can Buffy keep her humanity
and also keep being a proficient Slayer. S6 is about Buffy finding that balance. Spike is a part of that
balance.
rowan
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[> [> So Spike is the "fire"? (OMwF spoiler) -- Darby, 09:00:31 12/26/01 Wed
Rowan: It's amazing how one comment on these boards can pull something together in your own
mind. If Spike is Buffy's fire from the song, the metaphors all seem to fall into place (I was
wondering why a fire would look black / dark...). Will Buffy "unfreeze" now that she's
actually walked through Spike's fire?
And I can't go away without commenting on Nina's essay - again, it caused several
"Aha!" moments. The subtext makes sense, especially of some of Buffy's harder-to-
explain moments, and makes me want to watch those eps again from a new vantage point. I do think
the sexual metaphors were beaten over the head with a (non-phallic) stick too much, though. It's
tough - once you get a good idea (and some of the imagery is difficult to deny), you really do want to
run with it everywhere.
One question, though, Nina (hope you at least come back to investigate responses to your own post) -
you seem to have seen all of the eps up to and including the most recent ones - what's being
"spoiled" for you?
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[> [> [> Re: So Spike is the "fire"? (OMwF spoiler) -- rowan, 10:43:57 12/26/01
Wed
"If Spike is Buffy's fire from the song, the metaphors all seem to fall into place (I was
wondering why a fire would look black / dark...). Will Buffy "unfreeze" now that she's
actually walked through Spike's fire?"
Now Darby, where were you when we were discussing the fire imagery in OMwF after it aired?
;)
Seriously, though, we talked at the time about how fire was being presented in both a positive and a
negative way. Fire was inspirational and an agent for regeneration, but it was also consumptive and
destructive.
Sweet's victims literally danced themselves to death while singing out about intense emotion. Two
inspirational muses (singing and dancing) are paired with the element associated with inspiration
(fire) to result in death and destruction. People caught fire and they combusted. Buffy was about to
succumb to her death wish by burning up. So the fire, when out of balance, can lead to destruction.
Too much raw emotion isn't a good thing, apparently.
On the other hand, Buffy is clearly frozen. She touches fire, but it freezes her. She wants her fire
back. Spike is also associated with fire. He's being burned up by love for Buffy. He stops her from
dancing herself to death and just tells her to go on living each day until she heals. He provides
inspiration of a balanced nature that promotes healing. He is the positive aspect of fire.
The First Slayer/Guide in Intervention stood behind a huge fire and talk about Buffy being so full of
love that it is blinding. This is in response to Buffy's fear that she is losing her humanity and turning
to stone. She's becoming a killer like the First Slayer. Primal, without the connections to love,
family, friends. No friends. No family. Just the kill.
The First Slayer/Guide tells her that will happen only if she turns away from the fire inside herself.
That fire is pain, but the Slayer forges strength from pain. It's all about love, give, and forgive. Later
in that episode, she puts that into practice with...Spike. Kissing and forgiving Spike is the first step
Buffy takes towards wellness.
Now, she has catatonia ahead of her later in the season. That's the ultimate in frozenness, isn't it? I
don't deny that. Lessons of importance are not usually learned all at once in the Buffyverse. But in
The Gift, Buffy figures it all out. She leaves the Magic Box determined to protect Dawn, but
threatening to kill anyone else who goes near her (except Spike) and willing to let humanity die. On
the tower, though, she finds her true nature. Love leads her to sacrifice herself into the fire (crackly
dimensional energy) so that she can love Dawn, her family, her friends, and humanity. As her
reward, she gets a heavenly dimension that makes her feel complete, whole, safe, and loved.
But she is ripped from that dimension by her friends. the lesson is now unlearned to the extent that
her gift is negated. She becomes detached again. What reattaches her to life? Well, I think it's love
for Spike, frankly. She's gets glimpses of the peace she felt in heaven back through the ecstasy she
finds in Spike's arms. In the shooting script, Marti makes parenthetical comments that Buffy finds
escape, release, and ecstasy (everything she's needed) with Spike. That sounds pretty positive to me.
She's getting her fire back by living. She's risking the pain. In Wrecked, we see her start to really
reattach to her friends. She has her first really significant moment with Dawn. She gets blazingly
angry with Willow. She's starting to show the full range of emotions again.
rowan
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[> [> [> A question to continue the discussion... -- Nina, 10:45:48 12/26/01 Wed
"hope you at least come back to investigate responses to your own post"
Of course! :) I'm not just fleeing the scene here! Just making a conscious decision and thanking you
all before leaving! :)
"you seem to have seen all of the eps up to and including the most recent ones - what's being
"spoiled" for you?"
Yes I did! (still waiting for "Halloween" though, that's the only episode I haven't seen
yet!) The problem with spoilers is that they are often hidden in innocent posts and threads. Some of
them are even wide in the open in the title of the thread. Spoilers are not for what is passed, but for
what is coming ahead! Maybe you've been lucky, but I haven't. I already know too much from posters
who just don't realize that what they are talking about has not happen yet.
"Will Buffy "unfreeze" now that she's actually walked through Spike's
fire?"
That's the idea! He he! ;) I really love what you added Rowan. I also believe that it's the general idea
of the fire image.
Here's a question for everyone if you want to answer it:
When do you think Buffy and Spike became attracted/love each other? I gave you my perspective,
what's yours? Do you agree that Buffy started to love Spike in FFL? Was it before, has it not
happened yet? Let's discuss it if you want!
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[> [> [> [> You had to know I couldn't resist answering this question! ;) -- rowan,
11:18:34 12/26/01 Wed
"When do you think Buffy and Spike became attracted/love each other? I gave you my
perspective, what's yours? Do you agree that Buffy started to love Spike in FFL? Was it before, has it
not happened yet? Let's discuss it if you want!"
What surprises me about this storyline is that someone viewing it from start to finish could
conceivably argue that ME has been building the B/S ship since S2. And we know that's not true,
since Spike was originally slated to die in S2 and was not a regular until S4. Sometimes it's better to
be lucky than to be good. ;)
Boy, is this a tough one. I think Spike was always sexually attracted to Buffy, but he wasn't
consciously aware of it. JM has said he's played the sexual chemistry from the start.
For me, the S/B interactions began to take on a very different tone in early S4 before Spike was
chipped. There was a rage underneath their interactions that I never sensed before. it got personal.
It wasn't just about Big!Bad stalking the Slayer. It was about Spike and Buffy. Alot of the taunting
and fighting seemed to become very sexually loaded at that point. I'm specifically thinking of HLOD
as a prime example, but it's there elsewhere.
Someone suggested on another board that Spike was enraged because he lost Dru over the alliance
with Buffy in B2. He came back, saw that Buffy still had feelings for Angel (which implied she was
capable forgiving him for Angelus) and just went nuts. Dru couldn't forgive him, but Buffy could
forgive Angel. Spike also picked a blond high school classmate of Buffy's on which to vent his sexual
frustration and rage.
Let's add the recon to this. In FFL, we learn that Dru has told Spike he is obsessed with the Slayer
and that he can't push her away. As a result, he tastes like 'ashes' -- in other words, he is dead to his
vampire life. Spike denies it (quite movingly), feeling that Dru is punishing him for Angelus.
All this leads me to believe that Spike was suffering from denial about his sexual feelings for Buffy
from early S4 through OoMM. Now to the dream. Spike dreams he is in love with Buffy and that
Buffy wants him. This is Spike shockingly being pulled from denial into truth. But what truth? Does
Spike love Buffy at this point? My answer is no. I think that the dream shows Spike's sexual
attraction to Buffy and foreshadows that he'll be in love. But in reality, his behavior doesn't change
towards her very much. It seems to be all about satisfying his lust and his obsession. Killing has now
been subverted into screwing.
FFL is the turning point for Spike. When he is able to overcome his rage at Buffy's sexual rejection
in the alley, it proves to me that he is feeling what most of us would acknowledge as love. He is
moved by a woman's tears. Yes, he has been moved by women's tears in the past. But these are
Buffy's tears and he radically alters his behavior as a result. When he attempts to comfort her in a
non-sexual way, I think it's clear he's falling in love.
The rest of S5 is about Spike truly understanding what it means to Buffy. Crush is a big part of that
journey and so is Intervention. It culminates in his realization that he is a monster but that she
treats him like a man -- and that feels good. He reaches a point where he can be content to love but
not be loved. In fact, he expects never to be loved in return.
Now, what's up with Buffy? Well. I think Buffy is about one season behind Spike in her self-
awareness. In FFL, Buffy is clearly sexually attracted to Spike. She almost lets him kiss her in the
alley. Her rejection sounds a little...hesitant? breathless? There's a strange tone. She goes into
immediate and vehement denial mode until Intervention. When Spike does something *real* for
Buffy, she is able to stop seeing him as a monster and begin treating him like a man. It's not falling
in love for her. It's more like falling into friendship. That kiss is more than gratitude. It's symbolic of
a new starting point in their relationship where they can be allies and friends.
The Gift is huge for Buffy. She entrusts Spike with Dawn. Dawn is not only Buffy's beloved sister.
She symbolizes a a part of herself (the woman, not the Slayer). It was then that I knew definitely
that Buffy would fall in love with Spike. She was capable of it.
Early S6 is about Buffy continuing to develop her friendship with Spike and also about her coming to
terms with her sexual attraction. She has her epiphany about her sexual attraction in OmWF. She's
felt it in All the Way, but she confronts it head on in RIP and then in the finale. But she's still in
denial about her feelings. However, I would suggest that the first 7 episodes of the season were in
essence about Buffy falling in love with Spike. That's why ME focused so much on their bond and on
how instinctively Buffy sought out Spike as her safe place.
I expect two things when we return from rerun hell. First, the sexual relationship will resume
quickly and Buffy will come to terms with it. Second, ME will start focusing on Buffy's emotional
state. This will mirror Spike's own progress last season.
rowan
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[> [> [> [> [> I agree, Rowan... *FFL, Crush, and Intervention SPOILERS* -- Tillow,
06:51:53 12/28/01 Fri
Just caught this EXCELLENT string midstream but...
I think the real turning point for Spike is when in FFL Buffy looks up and asks, 'What do you want
now?'
Well, that's the question, isn't it? Does he want to hurt her? Does he want to kill her, does he just
want whatever attention she will grace him with or does he want something real? I believe in that
moment he chooses to love her.
In Crush he tries to force it saying "It isn't pretty, but it's real." Buffy isn't convinces
however until Intervention when she kisses him and says "That was real; I won't forget
it."
Nina's post gives us further insight into why Buffy has not been able to fully realize her own feelings
for Spike.
Brava, indeed!
Tillow
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[> [> [> [> Re: A question to continue the discussion... -- cynesthesia, 11:54:16 12/26/01
Wed
Thanks for the great essay Nina. You gave voice to a lot of things I've been trying to sort out. Depite
all the controversy over the ending of Smashed, it seemed to me to be the most life-affirming and
healing thing Buffy has done in a long time.
I agree with you about FFL. There was a moment during the pool table scene which has always
intrigued me. Buffy is watching Spike very intently with an odd look on her face that seems to come
close to, well, desire. Later in this episode (the scenes in the alley) and in after events, she seems to
have an interior monologue going on that is at variance with what she says and does. But in S6, I
think we're beginning to see a coming together of the Slayer side and the woman side.
This is my first post here (tried to post last night but it simply vanished). I truly love this board -
there are so many smart and perceptive people here.
cynesthesia
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: A question to continue the discussion... -- Nina, 12:19:05 12/26/01
Wed
Welcome aboard cynesthesia! One poster leaves another one rises! Youppi! :)
Wow Rowan! What can I say, it takes me days to come with my opinion on the subject and you do it
in less then 30 minutes! I'm speechless and bow before you! :)
Your post shows me one thing. In my essay I talk about love and attraction. I mention that Spike
falls in love with Buffy as soon as he sees her and Buffy falls in love with Spike when he finally is
showing a softer side. I should have been more precise. It's not "love" yet. I believe it's
the seed of love that happens in those moments. The seed is there but unconsciously repressed. I
agree that Spike finally understands what his love means in FFL. And your post makes me think
that it's probably when he plants the seed of love in Buffy's heart. Buffy is not ready to love him back
yet! He has a lot of road to cover...
I pretty much agree with everything you say even if it seems to take a different path from what I
argue about. Very interesting point of view! Thank you!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A question to continue the discussion... -- rowan, 13:55:39
12/26/01 Wed
"What can I say, it takes me days to come with my opinion on the subject and you do it in less
then 30 minutes!"
I don't need a life, Nina. I have Spike's. ;)
rowan
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[> WOW! Truly great essay, Nina. Thanks! -- Moose, 11:17:24 12/26/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Sex and Spike -- Rufus, 13:02:35 12/26/01 Wed
If we go back to Spike when he was William we could see a man that had about as much a chance at
getting laid as a corpse. He is brought into a world of the undead and that is when he is able to act
out sexually. Sex gets his attention. He does have a knack for showing actual affection to his first
and only girlfriend, Dru, but, his introduction to sex leaves him with some demonic ideas on how to
get it on. Then he meets Buffy. Spike as he was would have been most innapropriate as a mate for
Buffy, he simply was too self centered and only thought of sexual release when he first met Buffy.
The most clever thing ME did was to introduce us to William, someone sensitive enough to have an
actual relationship with a woman. The potential was there, he was a caring lover with only a few
dozen or so kinks. I wouldn't have bought him with Buffy for a second. But then the education of
Spike started.
Over season five and now six we have seen Spike put through his emotional paces, they were
necessary for Buffy to look at him at all. In FFL, Spike could only see Buffy in a sexual way, when
she slighted him he was ready to kill her, old reactions to anger die hard. Then he did the most
unusual thing for a soulless demon....on those back steps Spike put aside his selfish desire to get
even and actually comforted Buffy. That was the start of some pretty rough lessons in life. I'm sure
that sex would have been at least fun for both parties, but Spike was still only concerned with
himself. Instead of thinking of his own happiness Spike showed that he was capable of more....all in
the pat of a Slayers back.
To get Buffy, Spike had to learn a new dance. What worked for an insane Dru would have only ended
up dusty for Spike with Buffy. Many people hated what was happening to Spike last year, but I saw
it as an evolution of his character. He was reconnecting with his latent humanity. When rejected by
Buffy in Crush, Spike gave into his sexual desire and had a robot created, a complicated sex toy. It's
in the programing that we could see that there was more to Spike than sex with the Slayer. He
wanted a companion, not just a toy to shove in the corner when finished with her. He also showed his
capacity for tenderness and the most telling his need to have Buffy not a demon approximation of
her. He wanted her to "just be Buffy". A chord of lonliness was exposed here. Spike may
have done something that was sleazy to many, but he proved to me that there were some changes
coming. His words to what he thought was the Buffybot proved that he had sexual desire for Buffy
but also the need to see her happy, a need strong enough to die for. Buffy rewarded him with a
chaste kiss. His actions to protect Buffy from being unhappy were an indication that sexual need
now included the need for the other party involved to be happy. That was far from the self centered
vampire that was first chipped. Spike has always had one primary motivation.....to save himself from
discomfort. He would do anything to save himself. He would turn in the SG to Adam, and he would
terrorize unsuspecting humans to get cash from them. But he has slowly changed his behavior and
his motives have changed with that. In the Gift his tears were for the love of his life, the one that
had treated him like a man, made him remember what it was like to be a real live boy. He is still a
demon, still can be evil....does he want to anymore?
In Smashed, Spike thought the chip was broken, his first act was to try to find a snack. He called the
people "goodies", his attempted attack was disturbing because it does set up two
scenarios....one he is able to remain not perfectly good, but okay. The next one is that no matter what
he does, his quick reactions when angered are setting him up for a tragedy. We don't know which
yet. Were his tender moment with Buffy only a hint of what is yet to come, or will his demon nature
win over the mind of the man that once was? But then the unexpected happened, Buffy initiated sex.
She may have regretted it later, but she was still ready to have another go the next morning. That
did one thing, it got the constant quest for sexual release out of the way and we got to see that Spike
was more than a one night stand. He has his stones now.....he is again potent in more ways than the
sexual. He is on an equal footing with Buffy and can progress past the Boy Toy phase. Furthermore
he has demanded fair treatment. He may be dirt to some but he still felt pain when Buffy told him
he was convenient. That phrase didn't send him out to do the worst thing to get even, it steeled his
resolve to get Buffy as a partner, not a quickie. His primary incentive in this relationship is no
longer sex, but love. I also noted that he wasn't that upset that he couldn't carry out the attack in the
alley with that woman. He seemed okay with it. Will he again be tested at a later date? Spike acts
out the worst when he is shown scorn. What will happen the next time his feelings are hurt?
I agree that vampires and slayers are sexual creatures....all that biting and
staking...penetration....for sexual release. But there is more to sex and Spike's evolution has been
one that is important...in a year when the gang's problem is all about growing up, we have to
remember...not only the gang may be growing up....Spike seems to finally be progressing past his
frozen in adolecent vampire life.
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[> [> Thanks Rufus! A few more thoughts about when Buffy really fell in love... -- Nina,
09:41:49 12/27/01 Thu
Rufus you said cleverly what was in my mind! :)
FFL and "Flooded" are mirror images of the progression of Buffy's love for Spike. They
are both episodes written by Douglas Petrie! In FFL, Buffy witnesses Spike's sensitive side. He cares
for her, he pats her on her shoulder. Buffy eyes widen. What's all that about? That's when I believe
Spike planted the seed of love in Buffy's heart. When he himself recognized his love for her.
Spike has now to water the plant (what you described eloquently Rufus!). He has to change in order
to be worthy of her. Worthy of her love. Not just satisfy the attraction the vampire has for the
slayer.
In "Flooded", FFL is revisited. Since FFL Spike has changed. He proved to her that his
love was real (Intervention), he proved he could be trusted with Dawn's life (The Gift) and he proved
he didn't need Buffy to be around to stay that way (Afterlife).
In "Flooded", Buffy smiles at his joke , she engages private talk with him. She let's him
in. I love the way that scene on the porch is staged. Spike moves towards Buffy like he did in season
5. One step at a time. Every time he makes a move, he stops, pauses, makes sure it's okay and then
comes closer. He respects Buffy's space. Buffy falls really in love with Spike right then.
After "Flooded", Buffy starts to act exactly like Spike did last year when he had his
revelation in OomM. She comes to his crypt all the time (needs to be around him and his things), she
saves his life unwillingly in "Tabula Rasa" (like Spike in "Family"), she's
flustered when he is naked in "Wrecked" (like Spike was in "Into the
woods").
"Spike seems to finally be progressing past his frozen in adolecent vampire life."
This reminds me of Spike's comment in "Smashed": "A little more compassion love,
a man was frozen in there". I always believed that on some level he was talking about himself.
Spike is Buffy's fire, but she is his fire too and together they can pass past the slayer/vampire
relationship. Their love can possibly bring them to explore different sides of their personality and
make them whole.
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[> [> [> Mirror dance -- dsf, 10:30:03 12/28/01 Fri
Nina wrote:
>In "Flooded", Buffy smiles at his joke , she engages private talk with him. She let's
him in. I love the way that scene on the porch is staged. Spike moves towards Buffy like he did in
season 5. One step at a time. Every time he makes a move, he stops, pauses, makes sure it's okay
and then comes closer.<
This is lovely. Courtship with friendly respect (rather different from the cattle prod, chains, and
ultimatum method he tried before.)
>Buffy falls really in love with Spike right then.
Maybe. I suppose we'll see!
>After "Flooded", Buffy starts to act exactly like Spike did last year when he had his
revelation in OomM. She comes to his crypt all the time (needs to be around him and his things), she
saves his life unwillingly in "Tabula Rasa" (like Spike in "Family"), she's
flustered when he is naked in "Wrecked" (like Spike was in "Into the
woods").<
Yes. That's what I was discussing with my husband last night, though I hadn't made these neat
explicit comparisons: Buffy seems to be progressing through some of the same stages that Spike did
last season. Not at the same rate, though. After all, Spike accepted a long time ago that he's love's
bitch. He gives in to his feelings after a token (though heartfelt) protest, even if it takes him a while
to progress from obsession/infatuation to true love. He was never meant to hold back.
But what Buffy has learned about (romantic) love is that if she gives into it, people die. Having any
reason for misgivings about a relationship is enough to make her swear off it. She never wants to be
in that position again: trying to justify, to herself and to the people who have suffered because of it, a
decision to love unwisely. (How could she ever explain to her friends, if anything went wrong, why
she went ahead with a relationship with *Spike*? There's a conversation I'd want to avoid!)
So she's been dragging her feet, proceeding much more slowly than Spike did after OoMM. In fact,
using denial as weapon and shield, she's been able to take almost as many steps backward as
forward. We saw her treat Spike with respect in The Gift, but it didn't stop her from leaping
backwards this year when confronted with her forward progression to kisses. She's still trying to
dissemble. ("And I never liked you anyway and you have stupid hair.") Where is she
now? Has she reached her own FfL? Or is she still in the middle of it, courting Spike by attacking
him, as he courted her by telling her she had a death wish he hoped to fulfill? And if she is, how long
can Spike stand the pain she's inflicting?
dsf
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[> [> [> [> Re: Mirror dance -- Spike Lover, 11:31:16 12/29/01 Sat
Impressive. Very Insightful. I particularly like your comparison to FfL and "I never liked you
anyway and you have stupid hair" quote.
By the way, remember that in Renaissance poetry, a death wish is a sex wish. If a lover wanted to
die, it was usually in his lover's lap.
As far as that "conversation" goes, it is coming. In a big way, it is going to be a big
confrontation, but I don't know how it will play out. As you will remember, Willow in the past was
always supportive of Buffy and her romantic interests, whether they involved Angel, Parker, Ben,
Riley, etc. Giles was initially supportive of an Angel relationship, until he was kidnapped and
tortured, and Jenny was murdered. Then he was furious that Buffy took Angel back; it was a terrible
lack of loyalty on her part.
Xander was never supportive of the Angel relationship. he saw Angel as a competitor, but in general,
ever since "Harvest" in season 1, he has been of the opinion that 'Vampires are bad'. He
was totally supportive of the Riley relationship and really read Buff the riot act. At the same time, in
a really interesting moment, he took his own advice (so that he would not be hypocritical) and told
Anya that he loved her, etc. Perhaps he somehow identifies w/ Riley as another "normal"
guy, although Riley really wasn't.
I fear that Buff is never going to tell her friends that she has feelings/a relationship w/ Spike. (I fear
that she was going to tell Willow in Smashed that she had made a "horrible mistake"
rather than confess true feelings for Spike.) I think she will be forced to tell them, either because
they somehow discover it or because of some sort of violent confrontation w/ a monster, she has to
confess it.
How will the SG react? Well, remember last season when the SG surrounded Spike in the magic
shop and told him that they would not let him get to Buffy. Even Dawn was in on that. I thought it
was sick. Buff did not need them to rebuff Spike. She is the slayer after all.
For some reason, I think on some level, Xander will deal w/ it before anyone else. I think his opinion
of Spike has softened to some degree -namely in the RV episode and maybe a little in
Intervention.
Giles I think will continue to look down on Spike. I have no idea what Willow will do, or if she will
even notice.
What I wonder is if any past slayers have ever had a thing for vamps. What do those slayer diaries
say? Is Buffy unique in her attraction w/ the enemy or has there been others? Kendra thought it was
strange, and Faith too.
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[> [> [> [> [> I don't know about Giles...... -- Rufus, 17:12:39 12/29/01 Sat
His comment in Tabula Rasa about the feelings of dissapointment about "Randy" tell me
he had to care enough to have some sort of hope for Spike. In season four when he asked Spike if he
thought he could possibly serve a higher purpose expose a watcher willing to be an optimist in
regards to demons. I think if Giles thought that there was hope for Spike he would come around, he
would always fear the worst but he wouldn't step in Buffy's way.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't know about Giles...... -- Spike Lover, 09:21:59 12/30/01
Sun
I am not so sure, though I wish I could remember the moment you are talking about in Season 4.
Can you give me any details of the ep?
The most recent thing Giles says to Spike is probably in OMwF, when Spike is insisting that Buffy
needs backup to face the singing demon, and Giles tells him he does not care what he thinks.
I mean, if you use Giles' concern for Randy in TR as proof for a real fatherly/son concern for Spike,
then what must you make of his feelings for Anya? By the way, how far do you think Anya and Giles
went after they got the bunnies taken care of. Were they getting it on like rabbits as well? Or do you
think that they just exchanged a few kisses. (After all, he supposedly did it twice on a police car w/
Joyce the last time he wasn't himself.)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't know about Giles...... -- dsf, 12:42:40 12/30/01
Sun
Tabula Rasa is the episode after Once More With Feeling. A few comments about the lines in
question:
1) "When I want your opinion... I'll never want your opinion."
It's not uncommon for Giles to revise an unfriendly remark to make it still less unfriendly; just a bit
of elegant insult. But this pattern could also be a repeat of a frequent trope in relation to Spike: a
character needing to remind him/herself that Spike isn't (supposed to be) a buddy. Or vice
versa.
Compare Spike in -- hmm, was it Fear Itself? -- where he starts by explaining why he's going to help
and ends by talking himself out of it. He needed the reminder. All those 4th and 5th-season eps
where he protests his evilness too much. And eventually it stops working; despite all his efforts, he's
come to treat these people like family.
Here in 6th season, reminding herself of the attitude she's supposed to have to Spike has stopped
working for Buffy. Giles might have found the same thing happening to him.
2) Disappointment as an emotion the memory-erased Giles feels on looking at Spike... there are so
many places this could go. If I were in total denial myself, I might say that Giles is disappointed that
Spike is still around. But I don't believe that. I'm open to suggestion on what this might mean, other
than the supertext reference to Restless.
dsf
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't know about Giles...... -- Lilac, 13:08:09
12/30/01 Sun
The thing that struck me most about Giles in TR was that, as a clean slate, he embraced the two
characters he normally likes the least. While I don't believe he actively dislikes Anya, I think it is
safe to say that he appreciates her business sense, but finds her pretty irritating on a personal level.
Not the person one would expect him to believe he was engaged to.
Certainly Spike is a long way from being Giles's favorite person, even given his limited attempts to
reach out to Spike when he was first chipped. Indeed, one could argue that Giles holds Spike in great
contempt and actively hates him. The last person one would expect Giles to be willing to believe was
a family member.
Buffy, with no memory, was able to fall into familiar relationship patterns with both Dawn and
Spike. Tara and Willow felt their mutual attraction. It doesn't look good for Xander and Anya's
marriage plans that they felt no draw to each other. And god knows what Giles's clueless-ness says
about him. Is he so removed from his feelings normally, that when his every daystructure is
removed, he reacts totally out of his established character? This was, for me, that most interesting
part of TR.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "The I in team" is the episode you are
looking for... -- Nina, 14:56:30 12/30/01 Sun
In "A new Man" Spike helped Giles with his demon problem and in "The I in
Team" Giles come to pay is debt and asks Spike if he ever considered that his chip had a higher
purpose. Spike is bothered by his comment and complains about the fact that he lost count (while
counting the money). Spike then shuts Giles out, telling him he wants nothing to do with him
anymore. (pretty much a "I was made to love you" attitude)
I agree that in "The I in Team", Giles had hope for Spike. He still has hope in "This
year girl" when he and Xander ask Spike questions about Faith. It's only when Spike says that
he hates them that Giles realizes that he's been very stupid to hope that Spike would ever be on
their side. In "Primeval", Giles is disappointed again when he understands that Spike
tricked them in "The Yoko factor". Spike has deceived Giles 3 times since Giles made his
proposition in The I in team.
In season 5 they don't have a lot of interaction, but Spike disappoints Giles again with the way he
treated Buffy in "Crush" (Buffy is like a daughter to Giles. I can't imagine Giles not be
angry with Spike in the scene in the Magic box in "I was made to love you" is. Personaly
I find this scene very well justified). That makes at least 4 times in the Giles/Spike post - The I in
team history that Spike disappoints Giles... seems to me that when Giles is saying his
"disappointment" comment in Tabula Rasa his feelings are pretty accurate!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "The I in team" is the
episode you are looking for... -- Rufus, 19:03:42 12/30/01 Sun
Don't you find the word "disappointed" a bit odd for a Watcher in regards to a demon, a
demon he spent the summer watching Passions with? Spike is supposed to be the enemy, an evil
disgusting thing. Giles was able to get on with working with Angel after the death of Jenny and I
suspect his feelings are stronger than disappointment with Angel. But, with Spike, it's like he did get
his hopes up at the chance that even one vampire could regain a significant amount of their
humanity. He has spent a lot of down time with Spike. He is capable of having a lengthy
conversation with the vampire. To be disappointed with someone you have to have had an interest in
something about them in the first place. Even though Spike keeps disapointing Giles, I think that
Giles does have a fondness for him he wouldn't like to admit. When he said he wouldn't ever listen to
Spike, it was more to shut Spike up. I think he has listened to Spike before but his desperation over
Buffy made him want to ignore his feelings about helping Buffy to send her off on her own. You will
notice that he did change his mind, so I guess part of him listened to Spike after all.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "The I in team" is the
episode you are looking for... -- Spike Lover, 19:26:54 12/30/01 Sun
Ok, so Giles might have put more hope in Spike than I had realized, but part of the comedy of those
episodes was the banter between them when they were living together.
I realize although Spike sees through many characters' behavior, and often speaks the truth, when
he was aligning w/ Adam, he was using the truth, playing on their fears to divide the group. If the
group still holds bitter feelings or hesitates to trust him, I accept this. But that was not the original
question.
The question is when the SG realize that Buff & Spike are involved, how will they react? Are
you saying that because Giles felt "disappointment" in Spike or had hopes for him
previously, that he will be supportive of the relationship? Do you dare to speculate? Do you think
anyone will even bother to phone him w/ the news? Or will he pop back in for the X/A wedding and
find out?
Also, so far, no one has answered my question of : In TR, did Giles and Anya screw like rabbits or
not?
Yes, I mostly do have a one track mind. :)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "The I in team"
is the episode you are looking for... -- Rufus, 19:35:28 12/30/01 Sun
We did see them kiss.....but I assumed that the spell was broken while they were still in the middle
of that kiss. But, hey...given time...;)
As for Buffy and Spike.....I think that Giles would not be happy about the pairing, but less unhappy
if it was a unknown, still free range vampire Buffy hooked up with. I think part of Giles likes Spike,
but his watcher side would be quick to warn Buffy of just how wrong it could go. Of course I'd warn
her of that fact myself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Wow! -- Ip, 17:56:50 12/26/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship (very, very, very long!) -- Spike Lover,
11:44:46 12/27/01 Thu
I wanted to respond to this very long and very interesting essay. This may be a mute point, but
Spike is not "Sexually" neutured. (Neither is Angel.)
But perhaps what you are trying to get at is, as Spike says in Season 5, "Buffy likes it
rough."
It's true, and maybe she knows it by instinct rather than practice. I also continue to wonder if some
of her resistence to getting involved w/ Spike does not go back to Angel. Whether it is a betrayal of
her feelings for Angel, or because she simply could not be safely sexual w/ Angel.
Angel, also, tells us on his show that he is not a "u-nique". (sorry, don't know how to spell
it.) He has been sexual, but can not seem to be safely w/ Buffy.
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[> [> Offcourse the chip is a metaphore of sexual neuteuring -- Stranger, 13:02:41 12/27/01
Thu
It's even strongly implied in the show, first in the Initiative, in the greatly funny scene between
Willow and Spike : "Maybe you're just being nervous !" "I felt fine when we
began...Let's try again !" "Maybe it's me..."
Then in Pangs, with Spike saying he's gone to the veto and he's chasing the other puppies anymore.
:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I think you mean 'eunuch' -- Rahael, 06:37:52 12/28/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship (very, very, very long!) -- Gwyn, 19:26:48
12/28/01 Fri
Nina wrote:
"We know that vampires and slayer are sexual metaphors. On one hand, the vampires
penetrate their victims with their teeth, biting them into a mortal embrace. On the other hand, the
slayer's stake is a sexual form for a penis and every time Buffy stakes a vamp she impales them
through their hearts. Night after night she's having casual sex with them. The sex according to a
slayer. She sees them, she stakes/has sex with them and moves on. That's the dance Spike is
referring to. Vampires and slayer dance together until one of them dies. Only Buffy never dies from
those fights. She is like the Black widow. The spider that kills her one night stands."
Now here, despite so much that is thought provoking about your essay, is where I have a problem.
Metaphors are slippery buggers, and they are nothing if not capable of holding a range of meanings,
it is the nature of the beast. Meanings which gel and shade according to the dramatic and poetic
context in which they operate. While I can accept that there are points in the story where staking is
a sexual metaphor, and where the Vampire/Slayer dichotomy is a sexual relationship, that is not to
say that every time someone is staked, or even every time a vampire is staked, that the story
resonates with sexual implications. Sometimes, as someone else in the thread said paraphrasing
Freud, "Even Freud said a cigar is sometimes just a cigar." Or, another way of looking at
it, is that sometimes all that glitters is not a metaphor! When Buffy patrols she is not always on the
prowl for casual sex, even metaphorically speaking. Sometimes she is just doing her job and fighting
against evil. There is no question that she is engaged in a sexual dance with Spike from the
beginning but this is not the case with any other vampire she meets apart from Angel. (I’m not even
sure that she was engaged in a sexual dance with Angel, at least not as intensely as with Spike there
was something pretty chase about that relationship, but that is another post.) Prior to Spike she
even found it a pain at times because it took her away from the fun of a "normal" life. I’d
venture to say that when she points her stake at Angel or Spike it may have a sexual meaning,
pointed at any other vampire it is just a stick that disposes of moral rubbish cluttering up the
Hellmouth.
Nina also wrote:
"Buffy's whole conflict rises from the fact that she is not only a slayer. She is a slayer AND
Buffy. She can't just wear a slayer outfit at night and put it back in the closet when she is regular
Buffy. The attraction the slayer feels, Buffy feels it too. But the attraction that would be enough for
the slayer can't satisfy regular Buffy completely. She needs love too. Love based on something deeper
than sexual attraction. Buffy who doesn't want to merge with her slayer persona represses the
attraction. She pushes it all back to an unconscious level. There she can feel safe and believe that
regular Buffy only needs love"
I think you are in danger of stratifying the character here in thinking in terms of "regular
Buffy" and "slayer". While there is an analytical convenience in talking about
Buffy as an entity separate from the Slayer, the conflict between Buffy’s slayer role and her life
outside that role is an organic one. The excellence of the writing on the show never lets us forget that
while she is at war with herself, she is a work in progress, and things like "love" or
"sexual attraction", or the slayer and non-slayer attributes that make up her character,
are not so much two sides to her or two aspects of what she needs but elements in her character
jostling for balance. I think the difference is important because if we do not see her as constantly
multifacetted, the slayer element being just one facet in a complex young adult personality, we are in
danger of simplifying the character and the story. In the dream with the first Slayer in Restless I
think there is a good example of the way the writing stops us from oversimplifying:
TARA: The Slayer does not walk in this world.
BUFFY: I walk.
(Side shot of the three of them.)
BUFFY: I talk. I shop, I sneeze. I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.
(Shot of the First Slayer lifting her chin in anger.)
BUFFY: (offscreen) There's trees in the desert since you moved out. (The First Slayer shakes her
head) And I don't sleep on a bed of bones.
(Shot of Buffy's face.)
BUFFY: (firmly) Now give me back my friends.
(The First Slayer speaks in a very low, hoarse voice.)
FIRST SLAYER: No ... friends! Just the kill.
(Shot of Buffy watching her.)
FIRST SLAYER: We ... are ... alone!"
Buffy rejects the first Slayer’s assessment of who she is because part of her has a clear
understanding of how she incorporates the Slayer within her. She lives and has connections with the
world because of all of who she is "I walk… I talk, shop, I sneeze" and that means she
has changed what being the Slayer may mean as well. She has changed it because life is change.
" There's trees in the desert since you moved out." As a young adult, a work in progress,
on a lifelong journey, she is redefining slayerdom, not just accepting its tenets or the role assigned to
her as having givens. The fact that Giles always finds she pushes the limits of what he thought the
Watcher/Slayer relationship might be, and that she left the Council’s control, makes that rebellion
clear. Buffy is not just trying to be the Slayer, she is remaking what it is. Viewed this way, she is not
so much integrating the facets of her role and character as building an identity, a life, and re-making
the Buffyverse in the process.
"(The First Slayer lands atop Buffy and starts stabbing repeatedly at the floor with her stake.
Shot of Buffy lying underneath the First Slayer, rolling her eyes.)
BUFFY: Are you quite finished?
(First Slayer pulls her stake out of the floor.)
BUFFY: It's over, okay? I'm going to ignore you, and you're going to go away.
(The First Slayer pulls back and Buffy sits up, then stands.)
BUFFY: You're really gonna have to get over the whole ... primal power thing. (walks toward the
sofa)
(Shot of the First Slayer staring at her.)
BUFFY: (over her shoulder) You're *not* the source of me."
Here Buffy rejects her "life’s endeavour", (the phrase she uses in the Musical) as the
source of who she is. She is rejecting more than the first Slayer’s view of her role. And it is rather
comical that the stake in the First Slayer’s hand is so ineffective. In this context, and when Buffy
stakes the vampires er..non-sexually…the stake may not always be even a symbol of power. I mean,
sometimes it isn’t around or you drop it and you just have to beat up a demon up until you find it or
run away, or use fire, or rely on someone else helping, like Spike! By season 6, when Buffy has to
reconnect with the world after her resurrection, she is really having to find out what the
"source" of Buffy is. Prior to her mother’s death she would have said her friends and
family, along with her job. And she would have been right, and she still is. It is just that the time has
come in her life, having lost the old securities, to build new forms of family, new circles of friends,
and find love in those contexts as well as with a man she can love. I’m betting that her new family
will be Spike and Dawn, and her friends some form of reformed Scooby circle that is much more
loosely holding together than before. But the point is, Buffy may discover, or decide, or seek to be
something very different than we believe she may have chosen prior to her death. Like all young
people, as every parent with half a brain should be saying to them, she can be anything she wants.
"And I don't sleep on a bed of bones." The choice is hers and the sky is the limit.
She is never going to reach a point of rest, any more than the rest of us. It is not about putting all the
puzzle pieces, Slayer, "regular" Buffy, in whatever way you define that, together. Even
fighting Spike is not simply about sexual attraction, or evil, though it is all these things. It’s
primarily about finding out with him, and I stress the *with* as it is not just about using him,
"Who am I",who is Buffy, and "Who are we? Or "Is there a we?" Who
says she has to stay Chosen? I can hear any young person in the world shooting back on that one
"don't tell me what I can do, or cannot do! You are not the boss of me!" In that context,
the question is so complex, that she could easily find that wielding the stake is a pretty useless tool
in such a quest. Interesting metaphor though it is to us..er...when it is not just a stick that is.:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship (very, very, very long!) -- Nina,
08:40:47 12/29/01 Sat
Gwyn, I think you summarized what people may find disturbing about what I wrote. And even if I
sound completely out of my mind I agree with you completely. The reason I wrote the essay in the
first place was to analyse a certain aspect of Buffy's unconscious life. I used a very big magnifying
glass and there's a big problem with that, it's that you only see one aspect, not the whole
picture.
But I did it consciously. I needed to clear that unconscious level and make it cristal clear in my head.
Maybe I should have been more precise about that fact in the essay. I really wrote it for me in the
first place and didn't bother to explain everything. I added a few pointers here and there when I
decided to post it, but well I'm learning that I have to be clearer than that! :) Good lesson! :)
By the way I don't believe that every time Buffy stakes a vamp she's having sexual sex with him ,
but I believe that on an unconscious level that metaphor is always present. As for separating Buffy
in two Buffys you are right that it's not the proper way to see her. But when doctors learn their
medical instruments, they learn the different anatomical systems separately, then once they
understand those systems they look at the whole picture of the human body. By separating Buffy in
two that's what I am trying to do. Try to understand how each part works. Maybe then I'll be able to
understand her wholy! :) Maybe there are other ways? ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> But then again......... -- Rufus, 01:57:35 12/30/01 Sun
Now here, despite so much that is thought provoking about your essay, is where I have a problem.
Metaphors are slippery buggers, and they are nothing if not capable of holding a range of meanings,
it is the nature of the beast.
I still think that the sexual metaphor stands up in many cases in vampirism. Even Buffy was faced
with her inner feelings when Faith told everyone that slaying made her hungry and horny. So even
though each individual staking may not be sexual, it still leads up to a feeling of needing a sexual
release. I think Buffy was just clearing out the fridge til she started having sex.
Meanings which gel and shade according to the dramatic and poetic context in which they operate.
While I can accept that there are points in the story where staking is a sexual metaphor, and where
the Vampire/Slayer dichotomy is a sexual relationship, that is not to say that every time someone is
staked, or even every time a vampire is staked, that the story resonates with sexual
implications.
In BVS, I have to think that the Slayer was created to be a hunter. Just a little part of each slayer
contains the darkness of their target. Buffy has shown that she has an intense attraction to some
vampires. Most encounters with vampires are finished before an attraction could start, but given
time, Buffy has proven that attraction does exist, it drove Riley to attempt to find the allure of the
monster.
Sometimes, as someone else in the thread said paraphrasing Freud, "Even Freud said a cigar
is sometimes just a cigar." Or, another way of looking at it, is that sometimes all that glitters is
not a metaphor! When Buffy patrols she is not always on the prowl for casual sex, even
metaphorically speaking. Sometimes she is just doing her job and fighting against evil.
That's what she would like to think but her relationship with both Spike and Angel has her at least
wondering what the hell she is doing when shagging the target isn't in her job description. Just as
her instinct is to fight evil, other instincts exist as well. We have to at least question why a slayer
would be attracted to a being of evil she is supposed to eliminate.
There is no question that she is engaged in a sexual dance with Spike from the beginning but this is
not the case with any other vampire she meets apart from Angel. (I’m not even sure that she was
engaged in a sexual dance with Angel, at least not as intensely as with Spike there was something
pretty chase about that relationship, but that is another post.) Prior to Spike she even found it a
pain at times because it took her away from the fun of a "normal" life. I’d venture to say
that when she points her stake at Angel or Spike it may have a sexual meaning, pointed at any other
vampire it is just a stick that disposes of moral rubbish cluttering up the Hellmouth.
If it weren't for the fact that Buffy gets that secondary feeling of hunger and horniness, I would
totally agree with you. I always wondered, why a sharp pointy stick when there were way better
ways to killing vampires than a one on one kill all the time. I find the stake a painfully inadequate
choice when there is so much rubbish to take out. Metaphors are always there, and can be in the eye
of the beholder. I may not agree with everything Nina said but the sexual nature of the relationship
of Slayer and Vampire as well as Vampire and prey just can't be ignored. A cigar may only be a cigar,
but it can burn your house down if left unattended......:):):)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship (very, very, very long!) -- Gwyn, 19:33:05
12/28/01 Fri
Nina wrote:
"We know that vampires and slayer are sexual metaphors. On one hand, the vampires
penetrate their victims with their teeth, biting them into a mortal embrace. On the other hand, the
slayer's stake is a sexual form for a penis and every time Buffy stakes a vamp she impales them
through their hearts. Night after night she's having casual sex with them. The sex according to a
slayer. She sees them, she stakes/has sex with them and moves on. That's the dance Spike is
referring to. Vampires and slayer dance together until one of them dies. Only Buffy never dies from
those fights. She is like the Black widow. The spider that kills her one night stands."
Now here, despite so much that is thought provoking about your essay, is where I have a problem.
Metaphors are slippery buggers, and they are nothing if not capable of holding a range of meanings,
it is the nature of the beast. Meanings which gel and shade according to the dramatic and poetic
context in which they operate. While I can accept that there are points in the story where staking is
a sexual metaphor, and where the Vampire/Slayer dichotomy is a sexual relationship, that is not to
say that every time someone is staked, or even every time a vampire is staked, that the story
resonates with sexual implications. Sometimes, as someone else in the thread said paraphrasing
Freud, "Even Freud said a cigar is sometimes just a cigar." Or, another way of looking at
it, is that sometimes all that glitters is not a metaphor! When Buffy patrols she is not always on the
prowl for casual sex, even metaphorically speaking. Sometimes she is just doing her job and fighting
against evil. There is no question that she is engaged in a sexual dance with Spike from the
beginning but this is not the case with any other vampire she meets apart from Angel. (I’m not even
sure that she was engaged in a sexual dance with Angel, at least not as intensely as with Spike there
was something pretty chase about that relationship, but that is another post.) Prior to Spike she
even found it a pain at times because it took her away from the fun of a "normal" life. I’d
venture to say that when she points her stake at Angel or Spike it may have a sexual meaning,
pointed at any other vampire it is just a stick that disposes of moral rubbish cluttering up the
Hellmouth.
Nina also wrote:
"Buffy's whole conflict rises from the fact that she is not only a slayer. She is a slayer AND
Buffy. She can't just wear a slayer outfit at night and put it back in the closet when she is regular
Buffy. The attraction the slayer feels, Buffy feels it too. But the attraction that would be enough for
the slayer can't satisfy regular Buffy completely. She needs love too. Love based on something deeper
than sexual attraction. Buffy who doesn't want to merge with her slayer persona represses the
attraction. She pushes it all back to an unconscious level. There she can feel safe and believe that
regular Buffy only needs love"
I think you are in danger of stratifying the character here in thinking in terms of "regular
Buffy" and "slayer". While there is an analytical convenience in talking about
Buffy as an entity separate from the Slayer, the conflict between Buffy’s slayer role and her life
outside that role is an organic one. The excellence of the writing on the show never lets us forget that
while she is at war with herself, she is a work in progress, and things like "love" or
"sexual attraction", or the slayer and non-slayer attributes that make up her character,
are not so much two sides to her or two aspects of what she needs but elements in her character
jostling for balance. I think the difference is important because if we do not see her as constantly
multifacetted, the slayer element being just one facet in a complex young adult personality, we are in
danger of simplifying the character and the story. In the dream with the first Slayer in Restless I
think there is a good example of the way the writing stops us from oversimplifying:
TARA: The Slayer does not walk in this world.
BUFFY: I walk.
(Side shot of the three of them.)
BUFFY: I talk. I shop, I sneeze. I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.
(Shot of the First Slayer lifting her chin in anger.)
BUFFY: (offscreen) There's trees in the desert since you moved out. (The First Slayer shakes her
head) And I don't sleep on a bed of bones.
(Shot of Buffy's face.)
BUFFY: (firmly) Now give me back my friends.
(The First Slayer speaks in a very low, hoarse voice.)
FIRST SLAYER: No ... friends! Just the kill.
(Shot of Buffy watching her.)
FIRST SLAYER: We ... are ... alone!"
Buffy rejects the first Slayer’s assessment of who she is because part of her has a clear
understanding of how she incorporates the Slayer within her. She lives and has connections with the
world because of all of who she is "I walk… I talk, shop, I sneeze" and that means she
has changed what being the Slayer may mean as well. She has changed it because life is change.
" There's trees in the desert since you moved out." As a young adult, a work in progress,
on a lifelong journey, she is redefining slayerdom, not just accepting its tenets or the role assigned to
her as having givens. The fact that Giles always finds she pushes the limits of what he thought the
Watcher/Slayer relationship might be, and that she left the Council’s control, makes that rebellion
clear. Buffy is not just trying to be the Slayer, she is remaking what it is. Viewed this way, she is not
so much integrating the facets of her role and character as building an identity, a life, and re-making
the Buffyverse in the process.
"(The First Slayer lands atop Buffy and starts stabbing repeatedly at the floor with her stake.
Shot of Buffy lying underneath the First Slayer, rolling her eyes.)
BUFFY: Are you quite finished?
(First Slayer pulls her stake out of the floor.)
BUFFY: It's over, okay? I'm going to ignore you, and you're going to go away.
(The First Slayer pulls back and Buffy sits up, then stands.)
BUFFY: You're really gonna have to get over the whole ... primal power thing. (walks toward the
sofa)
(Shot of the First Slayer staring at her.)
BUFFY: (over her shoulder) You're *not* the source of me."
Here Buffy rejects her "life’s endeavour", (the phrase she uses in the Musical) as the
source of who she is. She is rejecting more than the first Slayer’s view of her role. And it is rather
comical that the stake in the First Slayer’s hand is so ineffective. In this context, and when Buffy
stakes the vampires er..non-sexually…the stake may not always be even a symbol of power. I mean,
sometimes it isn’t around or you drop it and you just have to beat up a demon up until you find it or
run away, or use fire, or rely on someone else helping, like Spike! By season 6, when Buffy has to
reconnect with the world after her resurrection, she is really having to find out what the
"source" of Buffy is. Prior to her mother’s death she would have said her friends and
family, along with her job. And she would have been right, and she still is. It is just that the time has
come in her life, having lost the old securities, to build new forms of family, new circles of friends,
and find love in those contexts as well as with a man she can love. I’m betting that her new family
will be Spike and Dawn, and her friends some form of reformed Scooby circle that is much more
loosely holding together than before. But the point is, Buffy may discover, or decide, or seek to be
something very different than we believe she may have chosen prior to her death. Like all young
people, as every parent with half a brain should be saying to them, she can be anything she wants.
"And I don't sleep on a bed of bones." The choice is hers and the sky is the limit.
She is never going to reach a point of rest, any more than the rest of us. It is not about putting all the
puzzle pieces, Slayer, "regular" Buffy, in whatever way you define that, together. Even
fighting Spike is not simply about sexual attraction, or evil, though it is all these things. It’s
primarily about finding out with him, and I stress the *with* as it is not just about using him,
"Who am I",who is Buffy, and "Who are we? Or "Is there a we?" Who
says she has to stay Chosen? I can hear any young person in the world shooting back on that one
"don't tell me what I can do, or cannot do! You are not the boss of me!" In that context,
the question is so complex, that she could easily find that wielding the stake is a pretty useless tool
in such a quest. Interesting metaphor though it is to us..er...when it is not just a stick that is.:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: An inside look into the Buffy/Spike relationship (very, very, very long!) -- Gwyn, 19:36:22
12/28/01 Fri
sorry about the replicated posting...have no idea what I did wrong!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Evil........ -- Rufus, 01:39:08 12/30/01 Sun
Send keys.....they are slippery buggers...;)
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