December 2001 posts
What went wrong with Riley? --
bookworm, 20:24:14 12/05/01 Wed
Rewatching the 4th season episodes on FX, I'm remembering that I actually did like Riley Finn when
he first came on. He was big and handsome, a genuinely nice guy with just enough in common with
Buffy to make him seem like good long-haul boyfriend material. He was no pushover in these
episodes either, emotionally or physically. I'm from the Midwest and Riley reminded me so much of
the guys I went to high school with. So why did the writers turn him into such a jerk in the 5th
season?
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[> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- Cactus Watcher, 20:59:06 12/05/01 Wed
I think part of the problem was that they didn't have a good idea where the character was headed
when they cast the part. Mark Blucas made a pretty decent, handsome, easy going grad student.
But, the part turned abruptly into a moody, follow-orders soldier guy, and he wasn't convincing
anymore. The writers didn't help much. They could have made Riley a smart officer type, which
would have fit with the grad student thing, but they didn't. Blucas didn't have a lot of chemistry
with SMG. But, the writers had Buffy half-way ignoring him anyway.
If the writers had stuck to the grad-student type, Riley might have worked out. Once they changed
him, you can't exactly blame MB for what happened.
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[> [> Poor MB -- MayaPapaya9, 21:24:51 12/05/01 Wed
Marc Blucas had a really bad time of it. First, he's introduced as Buffy's new love interest which
immedietely generates hate from the incredible amount of heartbroken and vengeful Buffy/Angel
shippers (including me). Then once he grew on us, his character slowly becomes weirder and weirder
as it becomes evident that he's not man enough for Buffy. Eventually it gets to the point where most
of us have forgotten he's still on the show and then he's written off after going to bloodsucking
whores. He kind of got a bad deal.
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[> [> [> Re: Poor MB -- maddog, 06:55:46 12/06/01 Thu
Man enough for Buffy? Who exactly could fit that category(excluding anything demon of course)?
Sounds like an unfair standard to hold any guy to.
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[> [> Riley cheated on Buffy, he was a jealous, he got sex way too easily -- Charlemagne20,
23:23:17 12/05/01 Wed
That about sums up my opinion. Along with he kept secrets from her, he didn't respect her, and that
he wasn't really that nice of a guy which offends genuinely nice guys like me.
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[> [> [> Re: Riley cheated on Buffy, he was a jealous, he got sex way too easily -- Rufus,
01:39:58 12/06/01 Thu
Wait a minute here before you decide what you think about Riley may I suggest OnM's character
post on the Initiative soldier, lover of Buffy's. It's easy to say he didn't respect Buffy ect but I think
he was more misunderstood than any demon in the show. I like the guy...I think that he got caught
up in circumstances beyond his control and he suffered for it. I never thought he stopped being a nice
guy. The thing is, even nice guys make mistakes, fail to live up to expectations, but being nice guys
they keep trying. If we can forgive sins of Angel, Spike, and even the human failings of other central
characters, I think Riley deserves some forgiveness and understanding as well.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Riley cheated on Buffy, he was a jealous, he got sex way too easily --
beekeepr, 02:08:32 12/06/01 Thu
-It is impossible not to be fond of you, Ruf-your consistent generosity and sense of fairplay continue
to endear. I think it is a cat thing!
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[> [> [> [> Re: Riley cheated on Buffy, he was a jealous, he got sex way too easily -- JM,
06:58:29 12/06/01 Thu
Thank God he's got at least a few champs. I always liked Riley and am enjoying him even more
second time round. I don't find him badly acted or characterized.
He's a nice, decent, thoughtful, brave guy without being so flawless that he's unsympathetic. He's
still got a bit of a temper and a reluctance to challenge authority. It's understandable that loosing his
military lifestyle would leave him vulnerable, rootless, and needy. (And that's without taking into
consideration the enormous personal betrayal of Maggie Walsh and the long-term physical effects of
drug addiction and withdrawal.)
Unfortunately when his world is falling apart, so is Buffy's. He understands that her crisis is more
important than his, and tries to accept that she doesn't love him, at least not in the same way. He
tries to find a way to deal with his own needs so that he can be there, strong, for her in whatever
capacity she will let him. First it's alcohol, later the vamps. Unsuprisingly, he slips easily into
addiction.
I have no idea what the writer's intentions were originally, but I really enjoyed the descent.
Dramatically it's interesting when good characters do bad things. (Isn't that one of the required
elements of tragedy?) He is aware that he is betraying not just his Slayer and her calling, but his
own ideals. And he is unable or unwilling to stop himself. The shame and the guilt make it all the
more agonizing and delicious to watch.
Plus I still get shivers watching the scene with Sandy in Shadow. He looks so needful and then after
so shocked by what he has discovered. Actually, since the thread is here, I'm going to repost from
another board from a long time ago. It's in response to a thread about erotically charged moments on
Buffy.
"Actually a Riley moment. (I know that he's not a board favorite, so please don't bother flaming
me unless you're going to say something I haven't already read ) That scene where Sandy bites him
is excellent, and highly charged. I really think that the biting addiction was more of a drug than a
sex metaphor, but that scene is choreographed rather erotically. His acquiescence as he turns his
head, the penetration of her teeth, how he jerks away at first, then the uncharacteristic look peace
and release on his face, the thrust of the stake as she explodes into dust, his wide eyed look and the
blood trickling down his neck . . . . Well, best scene for me, though YMMV."
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[> [> [> [> [> Riley: External identity guy (spoilers from Seasons 4 & 5) --
Kimberly, 08:15:36 12/06/01 Thu
My opinion on what happened to the poor guy (I always did like him, but I'm attracted to nice guys)
is that he lost who he was. When we first meet him, he's grad student by day and soldier at night. He
knows exactly who he is, he knows he's helping the world at large, and he comes across as a nice,
decent guy.
Then, he starts finding out that the Initiative is not such a nice organization. OK, tough to handle,
but there's people out there doing what he thought he was doing so he just joined them. And, at first,
he was a major part of the team. He knew how the Iniative worked, he knew where to go to get
information, he still knew who he was. (For the picky ones out there, yes, I know I changed tenses,
but I haven't the time to fix it so I'll continue with the past tense).
Then, the Initiative is gone and his specialized knowledge no longer means anything. He's now just
one of a team and the leader's boyfriend. That might have been all right, but Buffy was going
through some massive identity issues of her own right then, and couldn't give clear signals to Riley.
Since she was distracted by 1. what she is as the Slayer, 2. her mother's illness, 3. her annoying kid
sister and 4. Glory, she couldn't show Riley just how important he was to her. Riley no longer feels
important as Buffy's boyfriend and he no longer feels important as a part of the team. Since he has
always identified himself by his external roles, he has lost his sense of identity. (BTW, Graham's
constant belittling him as "just Buffy's boyfriend" accelerated the slide).
By accident, he found a way to feel good; always a bad thing when you're feeling bad and the feel-
good thing is a Bad Thing. When Buffy found out and called him on it, he went to the one alternative
that gave him an identity: the military team.
Parts of this were out of Riley's control, but other parts were well within it. The most important piece
to all of this, the piece that Riley was most at fault for, was his need to identify himself only by his
external roles. This isn't a bad thing, in and of itself, as long as you can also define yourself as
something internal to you and apart from all those roles. Riley couldn't, so Riley fled. Tragic end to a
nice guy.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Riley: External identity guy (spoilers from Seasons 4 & 5)
-- Rattletrap, 08:52:55 12/06/01 Thu
Good points Kim. We could also add that, after "Out of My Mind," when the Initiative
removed Riley's chip (or whatever it was), Buffy stopped letting him patrol with her, taking away
one of their most important commonalities and removing something that Riley considered integral to
his own identity. That piled on the loss of the Initiative and Buffy's increasing distraction, what
happened is almost understandable.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Riley: External identity guy (spoilers from Seasons 4
& 5) -- Kimberly, 09:00:28 12/06/01 Thu
I'd forgotten about that. Yep, one more nail in the coffin. (Was it a chip? I thought he pulled that out
himself in Primeval.)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Riley: External identity guy (spoilers from Seasons
4 & 5) -- Rattletrap, 09:02:50 12/06/01 Thu
Maybe not a chip, I'm not really sure. The Initiative put on a bunch of after-market extras, and they
removed some of them in that episode. I had sort of envisioned it as a really revved up pacemaker
kind of attachment or something, but I'm not sure they ever really told us.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Riley: External identity guy (spoilers from Seasons 4
& 5) -- maddog, 09:03:00 12/06/01 Thu
It also takes away their foreplay...someone posted that they always had some big demon fight before
they had sex. So that would also alienate him.
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[> [> [> Buffy and Riley both cheated on each other! -- Spike Lover, 11:49:55 12/06/01
Thu
First of all, you have to remember that during the Riley phase, the writer's are bringing Spike on as
a potential lover, and they needed Spike and Riley to be different, not copies of each other. I liked
Spike's description of Riley, "Cardboard Boy".
Anyway, you have to remember that Buffy, when she was going thru the whole Dawn, sick mom,
hellgoddess, etc problems, Riley repeatedly comes to her and asks her to lean on him. He desperately
wants to be there for her. She gives him the cold shoulder and makes -Spike her confidant. Although
they did not show it on camera, she told Spike all about her sick mom and who knows what else. -It
is emotional adultery.
My main problem w/ Riley was, as someone pointed out, he was too much like Buffy. He was grad
student by day, secret commando by night. She was college student by day, secret slayer by night.
And ultimately because they were so alike, he tried to compete with her. And he typified, as someone
surely pointed out, the masculine role of "the world is too dangerous for you to go by yourself,
let the men handle it." She would be out there slaying, and Spike would show up (because he
was pursuing her) and then Riley would show up because slaying is dangerous and she might need a
man to help her.
Ultimately I think that Riley let that vamp bite him at first because of his competitiveness with
Buffy. This was the danger she risked; he would risk it too. But there was probably more to it. I
think he probably wanted to get back at her also. After all, he knew that she had loved a vamp before
and he feared that she was growing attached to Spike. In some ways, by allowing the vamps to suck
on him, he was "showing" Buffy what he feared her involvement with Angel, Dracula,
& Spike would ultimately mean.
I will add here, as you knew I would, that Spike does not try to compete with Buffy. He does not try
to be the hero. He is comfortable w/ being the sidekick (something I think that even Willow cannot
boast of.)
Anyway, particularly in Hollywood, when two actors or artists get married, they almost invariably
get divorced simply because they are (whether they admit it or not) are competing w/ each other. It
was the same w/ Riley & Buffy, their relationship was never going to work.
You are also right-on about the sex. The most memorable thing to my mind that Buffy ever said after
sex with Riley was "That was relaxing."
Relaxing?? (Well, she certainly did not describe her romp with Spike that way, did she?)
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[> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- maddog, 06:30:38 12/06/01 Thu
I don't see it that way at all. I see that situation being more frustration on Riley's part. I mean, you
try matching yourself up to her relationship with Angel...cause you know that's how she measures
all her relationships...I think Riley's demise and eventual departure was just as much Buffy's fault
as it was his. Now, saying that I still don't see how letting Vamps feed off of you is a healthy way to
deal with things, but like I said, the frustration had engulfed him. So I don't see Riley as a jerk at
all, just a very frustrated young man who couldn't seem to get all of Buffy.
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[> [> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- Nutmeg, 10:20:11 12/06/01 Thu
I just found this board a week or so ago, and I love the level of discussion here. This is my first post
here.
I think Riley was set up to be the rebound guy (i.e., NOT the long haul guy) right from the
start.
I think there were signs of this fairly early on. Starting with "Something Blue" and the
fact that Buffy started out saying that she thought real love and passion had to go hand in hand with
pain and fighting, then she later deliberately picked Riley because she figured he wouldn't cause her
pain. I'm not saying that Buffy was necessarily right that love has to cause you pain, but the fact is
that the only person who can't hurt you is someone you don't love. If you love someone, there is
always the possibility of pain, but without love there really isn't. I think, subconsciously, Buffy
picked him because she didn't love him and therefore she wouldn't get hurt.
There is also the fact Buffy admitted to Willow in that she had "hold back" with Riley
when sparring. I think this was significant for two reasons. One, she was being dishonest with him;
she told him she was going all out, but she wasn't. Two, I think this was supposed to be not just
about fighting but also about sexuality. This ties back into Buffy's statements in SB about passion
and fighting going hand in hand, and was illustrated rather graphically in "The I in
Team" with the scene inter-cutting between the two of them fighting the demon and the two of
them having sex. Looking at these things together, I think that one simple statement to Willow let
us know that Riley was not ever going to fully satisfy Buffy sexually.
And I think that point was illustrated again in the opening scene of "Buffy vs. Dracula".
Buffy rolled out of bed with Riley, went out in search of a hunt, and then came back satisfied. There
was something Riley wasn't giving her; he was never going to be enough for her.
I think another sign that Riley wasn't the right guy for Buffy came in "Who Are You?"
when Riley slept with Faith. Not that I blame Riley for not knowing the difference. Who looks at
someone and says, "Hey, that's not your body. Get out of that body!" I guess this could be
just me reading more into the writer's intentions that was actually there, but I just think that,
external to the story, if the writers were really trying to set Riley up as Buffy's one true love, they
wouldn't have let Riley actually sleep with Faith. Something would have happened. Someone would
have interrupted, or Riley would have been called away on some Initiative thing. Something would
have happened to prevent Riley from sleeping with Faith.
I think these things had already set up the groundwork for the relationship failing long before the
"real" problems started. Riley had tied up his whole identity in the Initiative. When he
lost that, he tied up his whole identity in being Buffy's boyfriend. He had *nothing* else anymore.
And she had other things. She had friends and family and slaying. She had a sick mother that
needed her attention, and a sister that some crazy Hellgod wanted for (at that time) who knew what
reason. Buffy didn't have time to wrap her whole life up in Riley and Riley couldn't handle that. So,
since he wasn't getting what he needed from Buffy (i.e., a girlfriend who made him the center of her
universe just as he had made her the center of his), I think he just kind of lost it.
Okay, I guess that's more than long enough for a first post!
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[> [> [> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- JM, 10:29:10 12/06/01 Thu
Really good points. I think you have something there. I always thought it was significant, to Riley,
that the first admition of love was to Faith, and how violently it was received. I think that's a
moment you don't ever get back. I also think it said something, in someways nice, about Riley that
his first reaction to her rejection was not disappointment but concern for her. It hints at a future
emotional inequity between the two of them.
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[> [> [> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- Kimberly, 10:35:21 12/06/01 Thu
Good first post. Yeah, any time you identify yourself primarily as "somebody's whatever",
you're asking for trouble and heartache.
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[> [> [> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- Dyna, 10:58:23 12/06/01 Thu
Not to mention that Buffy and Riley's first kiss is in an episode titled "Doomed." Talk
about foreshadowing!
(BTW, if you're Nutmeg from MBTV, Hi!)
Dyna (aka Dynagirl)
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[> [> [> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- Moose, 20:54:54 12/06/01 Thu
The interesting thing is I don't think Angel would have been fooled by Faith in Buffy's body. The
connection between Riley and Buffy just wasn't as deep. I think she probably loved him on a certain
level, but kept it from going any deeper to avoid pain but also cause of who Riley was.
BTW--I'm in the hate Riley camp now. Going back over the eps, the subtle comments he makes
"You LET her go" and crap like that made it obvious the boy had trouble dealing with an
in-charge Slayer. Even if he claimed he liked it, he never truly did. And Riley's dismissive attitude
toward the Scoobies, who have been kicking demon butt far longer than the Initiative, was
irksome.
Buffy, while a leader, never took the military approach. Like Giles said, she puts "her heart
above all else". A military man would find that abhorent, yet a military man would have
chosen the simpler "kill Dawn" option rather than risking the world to save her.
Riley was too much the easy path guy IMO. Glad he is gone, hope he stays gone.
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[> [> [> Aha! You made a point for me! -- verdantheart, 06:57:43 12/07/01 Fri
You made the point I wanted to make for me (nice post, Nutmeg!). From the beginning, Buffy was
holding back. When she was sparring with Riley the first time, she found it easy to go too far. In
essence, there was something missing in their fighting compatibility, a mismatch, if you will.
They were also a mismatch in a romantic way. Buffy similarly holds back in this area. Did she need
to, or was she just not giving Riley the chance to measure up, not trusting him enough? It might just
be an extension of her tendency to protect him (as she protected him by going on patrol without
him).
But then, once Riley got over flaky freshman!Buffy and discovered slayer!Buffy, he was all
admiration for her and I think, deep down, felt inferior to her ("How many demons have you
slain? That many?", the ease with which she bested him in sparring). He felt he wasn't good
enough for her, and that's hard to live with.
Really, all this post boils down to is a rumination on your points.
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[> [> [> Re: What went wrong with Riley? -- maddog, 08:51:02 12/07/01 Fri
I agree with the where it all went wrong theory and will even say that the moment he slept with
Faith in Buffy's body that was where the problems began...I mean, look at what happened when
Angel got close to Faith(even though he was acting)...she changed...it's like she couldn't trust him. So
Riley does something somewhat similar(though the situation was far more twisted) and she reacts
accordinly. I can't wait til Spike truly disappoints her...cause it'll probably spell the end of him too.
What is wrong with Spike's Chip? -- MrDave, 22:42:32 12/05/01 Wed
This has kinda been bugging me and so I toss it into the forum to see what you guys think:
Spike's chip works (or so Jonathan tells him) fine and it detects "human/non-human"
differences using essentially Spike's own senses. In fact, it operates at an 'awareness' level that
approaches the magickal even though it is still technology-based.
So what if there ISN'T anything different about Buffy, but rather there is something different about
how Spike percieves her? The chip has no sensors other than Spike's own senses. What is something
has changes in how Spike sees Buffy instead?
Spike has always placed her in a special category all her own:
as Target: He killed two other Slayers, and wanted one more "good day"
as Nemesis: His return to Sunnydale
as Protector: after his encounter with the Inititive
as Object: In his dreams, not to mention the Buffy-bot
as Equal: When he is pseudo protector of Dawn and Joyce
as Lover: Season 6
I think it may actually be that it is Spike who has changed and his chip may recognise that the
natural order of things is to "always hurt the ones we love"...or something like that.
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[> Re: What is wrong with Spike's Chip? -- maddog, 06:24:40 12/06/01 Thu
While that kinda makes sense, do you really think he loves ALL non humans?
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[> Re: Nothing. -- mundusmundi, 07:10:25 12/06/01 Thu
After reading the many, many alternate theories on Spike's chip (see below and in the archives), my
conclusion remains the same: Why introduce the momentous issue of Buffy's identity only to revert
to something as incidental as the chip? Were the show called Spike the Slayer Boffer -- and there
doubtlessly will be clamors for such a spinoff -- then I could see the argument. As it remains Buffy-
centric, however, it seems likely that the writers are going to keep the focus on her. Exactly what
this means for Buffy, one can only speculate. We're good at that here, so welcome. :)
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[> [> Re: Nothing. -- maddog, 07:13:10 12/06/01 Thu
I agree...I don't see why they'd have Spike come to this great revelation without it having a profound
affect on Buffy. We now have a little over 10 episodes(can't remember exactly how many) to have her
at least try to figure out who or what she is.
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[> [> [> 12 eps left of the season... -- Rob, 09:20:14 12/06/01 Thu
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[> Re: What is wrong with Spike's Chip? -- Eric, 17:34:57 12/06/01 Thu
The question I have is why does Spike still HAVE a chip? Vampires are invulnerable to everything
except sunlight fire, wooden stakes, holy water, and maybe silver. In theory Spike should be able to
pull it out himself (if he truly had the wrinklies for it). Any anti tamper program might be
circumvented if he had another person do it for him. Drusilla would have been an ideal candidate for
picking his brain. It's certainly possible the "Big Bad" might catch a bullet or
inconvenient crowbar in the head in a future ep and return to old habits. -E
A challenge for the writers out there! -- Marie, 03:38:25 12/06/01 Thu
Yes, I've been home ill, with too much time on my hands, so I had to come up with something to keep
me occupied, and here it is.
I'm starting a round robin story, and my challenge is to incorporate the titles of Buffy episodes
within the story.
Rules:
1. Titles must be in their correct order, and not altered, although more than one person can say part
of the title, so long as the words are concurrent (i.e. "I never said she had to kill the boy - not
on a first date, anyway!" would be incorrect). (And, while I think of it, titles in two parts - like
Graduation 1 and 2 - may count as one).
2. Not more than 3 eps per time, so more folk can join in.
3. Put the three eps in the message subject, so we know where we are.
4. Take the story wherever you want to - but I would suggest you don't make your bits too long.
5. Remember, it's just for fun.
I'm sure there should be more rules, but my head isn't working too well today, so that's enough for
now.
Perhaps I should add, though, that for the purposes of this round robin I've set it "sort of"
pre S6 and post S6! In other words, for now, Buffy is back, and happy. Willow and Tara are still
together, and no sex has taken place between Buffy and Spike!
I'm posting the actual start directly after this, for clarity, and you'll see, I'm sure, that the first three
are some of the easiest - which one of you is going to be brave enough to try for I, Robot - You Jane,
or Doppelgangerland? Heh, heh!
Marie
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[> Episodes 1-3 -- Marie, 03:49:11 12/06/01 Thu
Buffy looked around at her friends - her family - and smiled to herself. This was why she'd come
back, she thought. They'd had a good night. The local movie theatre was having a Marx Brothers
week and they'd all gone together. A normal night, she thought, tucking her arm companionably
through Dawn's. Duck Soup and pizza with everything on it. What more could she ask.
"Slayer." The voice came from the side street ahead, and two vampires stepped out in
front of them. "Come all the way from Canada to kill you."
Sliding her arm from Dawn's, and pushing her gently towards Willow, Buffy raised a brow.
"Canada? I like Canadians. They have… er, chocolate, and, um, cats." As she spoke, she
slipped a stake from her sleeve and kicked out. "Let me extend a warm welcome to the
Hellmouth!" Spinning on her heel, she struck once, twice, and stepped back to her sister.
"So, you were saying?"
Dawn grinned. "We were just wondering how Giles was doing. I was telling the others what he
said in his letter."
"Yeah," Xander chipped in. "Giles on a farm? Can't see 'im milking cows, can you?
Or getting the harvest in!"
"Well, he'll be back as soon as he's sorted his friend's spooks out." Buffy replied. "In
the meantime, Tara, did you get a chance to look over the papers he sent?"
"Yes, Will and I translated some of it this morning. There was a lot we didn't understand, but
there was something about The Witch of the Wall-"
"The which of the what? That doesn't make sense," Xander interrupted her.
"Not which, Witch - w-i-t-c-h" Willow said. "Only we don't know which
Wall!"
"Uh, can I say, confused much!" Buffy said.
(Next 3 - Teacher's Pet / Never Kill a Boy on the First Date / The Pack. Have fun!)
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[> [> Re: Episodes 4-6 -- Brian, 11:11:47 12/06/01 Thu
Buffy and Xander are having coffee at the only Starbuck's in town.
Xander: How did the PTA meeting go?
Buffy: Well, Dawn is definitely no teacher's pet. Two of her teachers couldn't even remember if she
was in their class.
Xander: Sounds like she's carrying on your fine traditions.
Buffy: (Giving him the look) Well, at least she's doing well in art.
Xander: Well, math, science, you'll just have to talk to her about studying harder.
Bufy: I know, but it can't be right away. I just gave the lecture about never kill a boy on the first
date.
Xander: But, Buffy, he was a vampire!
Buffy: Yeah, ok, but she borrowed my favorite stake to do it.
Xander: Well, at least, she's not running with the pack of motorcycle jerks that have been tearing up
the streets of our fair city.
Buffy: No, that's probably Spike being his typical adolesent self.
Next three: Angel, I robot, you jane, and The puppet show
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[> [> [> Re: Episodes 7-9 -- GreatRewards, 11:43:25 12/06/01 Thu
Xander: "I’m soooooo bored! Let’s go do something, already!"
Buffy: "What’d you have in mind?"
Xander: "I dunno why, but I suddenly have the urge to go fishing…. Hey! Angel food cake…..
mmmmfffppphhh!"
Buffy: "Sounds like fun. But it’s gonna be different from the last time, when you made me row
the boat the whole time."
Xander: "Iph rmmph blth, yophth thammphh!"
Buffy: "what? ‘I Robot… You Jane?’"
Xander (finally swallowing): "Huh? No! I said I’ll row the boat, but you have to change! You
can’t fish in that sweater!"
Buffy: "Oh. Ok. Can Dawn come? I have to pick her up after school and it’s either fishing or the
puppet show at the Boys & Girls Club, and I think Dawnie’s a little old for ‘Kukla, Fran &
Ollie’."
Xander: "Sure, it’ll be fun. Go change, and I’ll meet you both down at the lake!"
(Next three episodes: "Nightmares", "Out of Mind, Out of Sight",
"Prophecy Girl")
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[> [> [> [> LOL! -- Marie, 11:52:20 12/06/01 Thu
I'd actually meant the stories to run on from each other, so we'd end up with one complete tale, but,
hey, you guys are doing so great, who am I to argue? Well done. I'm enjoying them (and your
creativity!) so far. Can't wait to see what everyone else comes up with. (Mind you, mine looks like it
ended oddly, now!).
M
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[> [> [> [> [> You need an editor to pull it all together -- Brain, 12:03:29 12/06/01
Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Since it looks like no one else is going to participate... --
GreatRewards, 16:05:31 12/06/01 Thu
I say it's Marie's turn to go again!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OK - 10-12 coming up... -- Marie, 16:25:50 12/06/01 Thu
Though there's time yet for others to join on. If anyone want to claim eps, feel free!
M
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Episodes10-12 -- Marie, 16:52:50 12/06/01 Thu
"Omigod!" Dawn squealed in horror and backed away from the wall.
"Wha? Wossermarrer?" The voice came from behind her and she squeaked and covered
her head with her arms.
"Dawn? That you?" Spike sat up and stared at her, bleary-eyed. "What the hell are
yer doin' 'ere at this time of the bleedin' day? Mus' be soddin' early, 'cos I'm still asleep. Or I've
started 'avin nightmares."
Receiving no answer, the vampire stood up, concerned. "Niblet? Come on, now, you can tell me.
Had a fight with Buffy, 'ave yer?"
"No. Goway." The answer was muffled, as she kept her head down. When he crouched
down beside her and reached out a hand to pull her arms away from her head, she moaned and tried
to shuffle back.
"Hey, come on now," Spike said in a sterner tone. "It can't be that bad. 'N Buffy's
gonna be worried about you."
That brought Dawn's head up, and she scowled at him at she said "Huh! You're kidding! She
won't even notice I'm not there for breakfast. Out of sight, out of mind. That was written for
her!" Her eyes widened suddenly and she gasped.
Spike gawped at her. "What? What the hell's the matter with you?"
"My HAIR!" she wailed, "I forgot to brush it and look at it!"
"Bloody hell, Bit, is that all? I knew I should've never got that mirror for you. Bloody women!
Here."
As he passed her the brush, and turned away in exasperation, she poked her tongue out at his back,
and he said "I saw that. What are you doing here so early, anyway!"
"Tara told me about the Prophecy-"
"Girl, there's always a bloody prophecy! Go to school and don't worry about it."
Dawn saw by the set look on his face that she'd get nothing more from him, so she slipped his brush
into her schoolbag, and before he could say any more, came up behind him and gave him a hug.
Perplexed, he turned and watched her leave.
(Next: When She Was Bad / Some Assembly Required / School Hard)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Episodes 13-16 -- Humanitas, 18:56:24
12/06/01 Thu
Dawn stormed off toward the school. Gah! Even Spike wouldn't pay attention to her, just shuffled
her out of the crypt and off to school. Well, she'd just have to find some way to make them pay
attention, then...
This ought to do it, she thought as she snuck off campus in the middle of the day. Since nobody
noticed when she was trying to be a good little girl and be responsible and stuff, let's see if they'd
catch on when she was bad.
She wandered down an alley downtown. Suddenly, a blur of boy and bike came hurtling past her,
nearly knocking her down. She started to yell, but the sound got lost in the crash of the bike into a
bunch of trashcans. The boy went tumbling over the handlebars, and came to rest against the
wall.
Dawn's irritation quickly shifted to concern, and she dashed to the boy's side. "Are you
OK?"
He shook he head to clear it, and let out a breath like a horse. "Yeah, I'm fine." She
helped him to his feet, and he walked slowly to the pile of rubbish that contained his bike.
"Looks like the bike is some assembly required, though."
He ran a hand through his short dirty-blonde hair, and turned to look at her. His eyes were very
blue. Dawn suddenly felt very uncomfortable. Her palms were starting to sweat. She stammered,
"W-will you be all right? 'Cause I have to be, you know, in school."
"Hard to say." He seemed to be looking all the way into the middle of her. "My
head doesn't hurt much, so probably." He squinted at her. "You're - fuzzy. Why is
that?" He looked around. "Everything else is fine. Why are you fuzzy?"
(Next: Inca Mummy Girl, Reptile Boy, Halloween)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Episodes 17-19 -- Brian, 20:09:32
12/06/01 Thu
Later, Dawn sat in class trying to pay attention to the discussion about Inca rituals where they
would make a muummy out of a sacrificed young girl. They took her up a mountain, and cut her
heart out, and sacrificed her to some Reptile god. "Boy, did that make her angry. Typical male
thinking.
At that moment, her friend Emily broke her thought pattern by asking , "Hey, are you going to
the Halloween party this weekend?"
Next Eps: 20-22
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Episodes 20-22 -- MrDave,
00:04:28 12/07/01 Fri
Eps 20-22 "Lie to Me":"The Dark Age":"What's My Line"
Buffy wandered around the schoolyard. It seemed like so long ago when she, too, had been a student.
Back before there was slayage and death... The sound of footsteps streaming out from the school
broke her train of thought. There was Dawn, and her little friend wahts-her-name. Dawn must have
picked up on Buffy's blank stare, "Buffy, this is Emily. Can I go to the Halloween Party this
weekend?"
"You aren't going to lie to me about where you are this time, are you?" Wow. That was a
motherly moment, thought Buffy. Dawn looked as shocked as Buffy.
"This isn't the Dark Ages. I have a life, you know," said Dawn, "Besides, if I
wanted to go, could you stop me? OW!"
"Say goodby to ...uh.." said Buffy as she snatched Dawn by the arm and started walking
toward the lake.
"Emily" mumbled Dawn.
"Whatever. You can't talk to me like that. And especially not in front of your friends,"
The words all tumbled out of Buffy's mouth. All those things her mom had said. All the time, she was
thinking "What's MY line?"
Next Eps: 23-25 "Ted":"Bad Eggs":"Surprise"
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Episodes 23-25 --
AntiSocialRAM, 03:18:21 12/07/01 Fri
Eps: 23-25 "Ted":"Bad Eggs":"Surprise"
Ted tiptoed into the living room and switched the TV set off. Margie had fallen asleep late the night
before watching the latest Buffy episode for the umteenth time -- something about HAVING to get
certain lines JUST RIGHT so she could logically and correctly over-analyze every gory detail with
her gang of cyber-pals.
"I swear, she prefers strangers, dysfunctional kids and vampires to my own fine
company," he grumbled thinking about her cold, unslept-in side of their bed.
He looked at his wife on the sofa. Margie was sprawled at a somewhat unnatural angle, with her
body stretched out in one direction, but her head facing the TV set. Of course, now, her eyes were
closed and she kept mumbling under her breath something that sounded like "No matter how
good it feels."
"Feels good... yea, I'll show you feels good. She even thinks about complaining about a stiff
neck..." he mumbled to himself and then brightened as a plan began to formulate.
"I know! I'll surprise her with a special breakfast and then we can spend the day together. Just
the two of us with NO Buffy and especially NO Spike!"
Whistling softly, Ted went into the kitchen to start his preparations. He pulled all the necessary
fixin's out of the refridgerator, cabinets and shelves. First he chopped onions, tomatoes, and peppers.
Next on his list was cutting leftover ham into perfect little cubes. He lovingly sliced curls of butter
into a small ceramic ramkin and sat a flaky croissant on a plate. Not wanting to wake Margie with
the noise from the juicer, he painstakingly squeezed, by hand, 12 oranges for four precious onces of
fresh juice. He laid out a plate, silverwear and a napkin on a breakfast tray covered with an antique
battenburg lace placemat. The final touch - one perfect red rose from the garden in her favorite
crystal bud vase.
When his preparations were complete, he melted butter in the skillet just the right temperature for
the perfect omelet. One last trip to the fridge yielded the last two eggs from the carton. Holding them
in one hand, Ted deftly cracked the two eggs together with the intention of whisking them until light
and fluffy. Instead, he was greeted with the most disgusting, nauseating, paint-blistering, eye-
watering stench to ever assail his tender nostrils.
Ted picked up the mixing bowl, and holding his nose, proceeding to throw the entire mishmash into
the garbage can sitting just outside the kitchen door.
"Damn, bad eggs."
Ted shook his head sadly and walked slowly into the living room where he turned on the TV just in
time to catch the demon disappearing in a trail of pixie dust.
Next Eps: "Innocence":"Phases":Bewitched, Bothered, &
Bewildered"
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Episodes 26-28 --
GreatRewards, 09:10:33 12/07/01 Fri
(Eps: "Innocence":"Phases":Bewitched, Bothered, &
Bewildered")
Xander: "'Pixie dust?' That wasn't in the script! What's going on?"
Buffy: "Um, confused now, much. Maybe Ed'll know what to make of this. Let's go see
him."
Xander: "No. You go ahead if you want, but I'm not going to talk to that guy."
Buffy: "Are you STILL sore at him? What the heck did he ever do, anyways?"
Xander: "Oh sure. Take HIS side. Am I the only person who sees through his little 'innocence'
charade? I say he's a demon. Why doesn't anyone believe me?"
Buffy: "I see. Is this another one of those 'paranoia' phases of yours, Xand? Cuz I gotta say: 'not
liking it'!"
Xander: "I'll show you. I'll show all of you. Maybe Willow'll help me cast a spell on him. Yeah!
That's the trick! I'll Bewitch Ed, bother Ed & bewilder Ed to no end! He'll run from Sunnydale
screaming!"
[beat]
Xander: "or maybe not. Wanna go to the Bronze?"
(Next Eps: Old Passion, Killed by Death, I Only Have Eyes for You)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ATTN: THIS
THREAD HAS BEEN MOVED. LOOK UP!!!!!! -- GreatRewards, 09:22:02 12/07/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ok - Episodes 17-19 - 2nd Try --
Brian, 04:19:15 12/07/01 Fri
Dawn was studying at the magic shop. Math, not her favorite subject. Xander came in from work,
kissed Anya, and disappeared into the bathroom to wash up from work.
Dawn started thinking. Hmmm, I wonder what would have happened if Inca Mummy girl had met
REptile boy before Xander. They would have made a real Halloween couple.
Oh, well, Algebra called.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is great, I hope it keeps going! --
Wolfhowl3, 20:10:32 12/06/01 Thu
I would add more, but I can't spell very well, and I'm not good at making up stories. (as anyone who
has read my would would tell you)
Wolfhowl
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> sorry, but... -- anom, 21:32:06 12/06/01 Thu
"Out of sight, out of mind."
...the ep title was "Out of Mind, Out of Sight," describing what happened to Marcie. And
Brian, Marie specified that each title has to occur all together, w/no other words in between. Anyone
want to give these another try? (No, I'm not gonna....)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're right, anom, but... -- Marie, 02:00:08
12/07/01 Fri
It was nearly 1:00 a.m. when I typed that, so I'm forgiving myself a small transposition!
And Brian - Inca Mummy Girl was one of the hardest - don't worry, I said it was just for fun!
Marie
Can Anyone Tell Me...? - BtVS: CDs and DVDs --
RabidHarpy, 07:29:26 12/06/01 Thu
I was wondering if someone could tell me how many BtVS (tv) CDs are out with songs from the
show?
(I have the one with Buffy and Angel on the cover and grad pictures on the inside - it features the
shows theme and "Lucky" by Bif Naked - I was just wondering if there was another CD
before or after that one?)
I was also wondering how many seasons of BtVS they have out on DVD currently?
(I think the USA may have more seasons available than we do up here in Canada - we'll only be
getting BtVS: Season One on DVD in January 2002.)
There are currently 3 box sets of VHS video tapes available (that I have seen), but nothing
else...
Can anyone out there help me out? Thank you!
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[> Re: Can Anyone Tell Me...? - BtVS: CDs and DVDs -- maddog, 07:42:40 12/06/01 Thu
Well, I don't know much about the cd's....but DVD wise, we're getting season 1 the same time you
are(right around mid January I think). Europe just released season 3, so they're way ahead(I think
we lose out cause of the syndication showing of it here in the states). And I know there are more than
3 box sets on VHS...check out amazon.com. They have a whole Buffy listing.
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[> Re: Can Anyone Tell Me...? - BtVS: CDs and DVDs -- vandalia, 07:45:57 12/06/01 Thu
The US is in just as dire straits as Canada when it comes to DVDs being available. The UK and
Australia are the ones you want to envy when it comes to DVD releases; I think they're up to season
3 or 4 already. But thanks to syndication rights in the US (and presumably Canada) DVDs haven't
been allowed to be released here until the show aired in syndication (as it has on FX, almost in its
entirety (end of Season 4 will air this Fri?)).
Anyway, the season 1 DVD of Buffy will be released in the US in Jan 2002 (I think Jan 16) as well.
That will be the first DVD available for region 1 (US, Canada).
As for CDs, I think there were two, but I could be wrong. Try checking www.amazon.com to see (use
the search and put in Buffy music).
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[> [> Re: Can Anyone Tell Me...? - BtVS: CDs and DVDs -- maddog, 07:50:13 12/06/01
Thu
ok, as we know more or less the same info let me throw this one out...does anyone know when plans
for season 2 are coming for the US/Canada? I'd heard they should be coming out faster now, but
haven't heard anything definite...anyone?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Haven't heard about S2 Buffy, but S1 Angel is coming out mid-Dec (next week!) --
vandalia, 08:28:04 12/06/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> For who though? Just the UK or the States? -- maddog, 08:32:27 12/06/01
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> The original plan... -- OnM, 08:32:57 12/06/01 Thu
...was to release the seasons in approx. 6 month intervals. Of course, that was what they were
planning to do nearly two years ago when DVD issues were first being discussed. Then the
syndication deals came up, and the DVD got postponed, as has already been noted.
I haven't heard any details yet as to whether or not the 6 month timetable still stands.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> God I hope so...my vhs copies are wearing out. :) -- maddog, 08:42:54 12/06/01
Thu
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[> [> [> [> Re: The original plan... -- Rattletrap, 09:00:38 12/06/01 Thu
A 6 month timetable would be convenient--that would give us the full S2 just in time for a dull four
months of summer reruns. Here's hoping it does!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> So there must be a way to get the imports from the UK or Australia, no? -- res, 22:05:06
12/06/01 Thu
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[> [> [> Re: So there must be a way to get the imports from the UK or Australia, no? --
pagangodess, 06:42:16 12/07/01 Fri
I'm sure you can purchase them, but the only problem is you cannot play UK or Australian coded
VHS or DVDs in North America, so you will have wasted your money.
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[> [> [> Yes, a special all-codes DVD Player with PAL/NSTC decoding! -- Earl Allison,
09:00:15 12/07/01 Fri
Yes, there IS a way to get Buffy and Angel on DVD now.
I have a Sampo DVD player -- it plays all Region-coded DVDs, as well as PAL formatted DVDs (the
UK and Australia, at least). It works great, and I've already watched all of Seasons 1-3 on DVD of
Buffy, and my Season 1 Angel DVDs are en route to me as of yesterday :)
As for the US release schedule, not sure yet aside from Season 1. As a note, I'll STILL buy the US
releases as they come out, so it's not like FOX is losing money here :)
Take it and run.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, a special all-codes DVD Player with PAL/NSTC decoding! -- maddog,
10:00:57 12/07/01 Fri
Brings up an interesting thought...are the US releases the same as the UK and Australian versions?
Are we getting more? less? different?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> We have the Sampo DVD player, too -- highly recommended -- Down with the
International Media Cartel, 10:06:42 12/07/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Ah, thank you, I will most definitely be looking into this! -- res, 19:55:49
12/08/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> How excited am I about the BtVS DVDs?!? -- Rob, 09:36:50 12/06/01 Thu
I am so excited about the DVDs that for Chanukkah, I asked my mom to buy me a new Sony
20" flat-screen TV with surround sound, and she did. (I'm getting it this Sunday, first night of
Chanukkah!!) I asked my grandma for a new DVD player (my old one was breaking), and she
did.
And why did I want all of this new equipment now?
Do you even have to ask? As the date for the DVDs gets closer and closer, I knew that I couldn't bear
to watch them on a sub-standard entertainment system. Only the best for my Buffy! :-)
Also, a quick question...I've pretty much been keeping up with all the Buffy DVD updates since last
January, when they were supposed to be out but didn't (grr aargh!), so I will probably know when it
happens (and when it does, I'll post it here), but as soon as anybody finds out when the first season of
"Angel" is coming out in the U.S. on DVD or the second season of "Buffy,"
please tell us here! I need to know! :-)
Rob
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[> [> re: Rob's message -- pagangodess, 10:15:51 12/06/01 Thu
Can I be Jewish too and can I have your mom and grandma for my own? You are so lucky!!!
pagan
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[> [> [> Re: re: Rob's message -- Rob, 10:54:35 12/06/01 Thu
Well, I've kind of grown attached to them, but I can loan my grandma and mom out to you on
alternating weekends if you like!
Oh, and you can have them next Chanukkah, too, of course! I bet they won't even make you convert!
LOL. :)
Rob
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[> [> [> [> LOL...thanks, Rob, we'll work out a schedule -- pagangodess, 10:58:36
12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Lawdy! Gifts like that would suffice for 2yrs worth of birthdays, anniversaries and
Christmases! ;) -- RH, 10:19:28 12/06/01 Thu
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[> [> Can I join your family, Rob? -- Shaglio, 11:11:45 12/06/01 Thu
Damn, you get all the cool presents! I'm 27 and my mom still buys me socks and underwear for
Christmas!
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[> [> [> Re: Can I join your family, Rob? -- Rob, 11:23:04 12/06/01 Thu
LOL! You might have to fight it out with pagangoddess, Shaglio! I already gave her my family on
alternating weekends and next Chanukkah!
I'm sure, however, we can all work out some kind of arrangement. Come to think of it, we have a
pretty big house. You can come live here if ya want. LOL. :)
Rob
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[> [> [> [> Re: Can I join your family, Rob? -- Kimberly, 11:25:42 12/06/01 Thu
If you're not careful, though, your house may wind up looking like Buffy's does now. LOL. :-)
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[> [> Naaahhh. Rob's not spoiled. Why would anyone think that?? ;) -- GreatRewards, 16:08:28
12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> What, Me Spoiled? ;) LOL -- Rob, 08:47:07 12/07/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Can Anyone Tell Me...? - BtVS: CDs and DVDs -- grifter, 01:16:04 12/07/01 Fri
Don't know about the CD's, but:
Seasons 1-3 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel are out now in the UK and I'm pretty sure you could
order them over www.amazon.co.uk, you'd only have to figure out a way around the regional codes
(should be possible if you watch them on your pc, but I'm really no expert on this).
Also, if rumors are correct, the following seasons will be realeased in about 4-months intervalls
(which is pretty damn fast IMO).
Anya's speech -- Shaglio, 08:25:40 12/06/01 Thu
One thing that has been bugging me for some time is Anya’s speech/accent. After recently watching
the season 3 episodes where powerless, human Anya finally makes an appearance, I noticed that she
spoke with a normal sound to her voice. I hadn’t realized since then that her voice has gained a sort
of robotic sound to it as if everything she does or sees totally amazes her. The way she speaks when
she does something that everyone else takes for granted makes her sound like a complete idiot (I
can’t think of an exact example from the show, but something along the lines of "I went down
to the store where they had taken cow’s milk, added flavoring, and frozen it. They called it ‘ice
cream.’"). It wouldn’t be so bad (in a 3rd Rock From The Sun sort of way) if she had spoken like
that from the onset of her becoming a human, but the reruns have reminded me that she once spoke
with a normal tone. For some reason this really bugs me. Thanks for letting me get it off my chest – I
feel a tad bit better now.
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[> Re: Anya's speech -- Rob, 08:32:58 12/06/01 Thu
Well, I assume it was because she was developing the character. Remember, the first time she was
on, in "The Wish," Emma Caulfield had no idea she would be on again. It was a one-time
deal, and neither she nor the writers knew the character yet. And over time they figured her
out.
Personally, I love Anya's voice. While I agree that I wish she had spoken the same way since her first
appearance, I am willing to ignore that little continuity glitch, which, after all, is only a glitch in
retrospect.
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya's speech -- Rattletrap, 08:58:59 12/06/01 Thu
I think the line you're thinking of was Xander's description of Pizza: "They put cheese on round
bread, its gonna be big" from "Real Me." Anya's speech in "The Wish" is
fairly normal, true, but even by the end of S3--Graduation Day--she had adopted the more
monotonous, stilted type of delivery she currently uses; basically as soon as they worked out her
character would be a fairly regular addition to the show.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Speech and language in the Buffyverse -- JLP, 12:40:39 12/06/01 Thu
I was bothered by the change in Anya's speech, too, but then I had this thought: In the first Anya
episodes, she was playing the role she knew, going slightly undercover to find some woman who
might wish for revenge. Probably she needed no other social skills than "sympathizing"
with some wronged woman. Once she accepted that she was going to be human permanently, after
"Doppelgangland," all kinds of other things had to be dealt with that were much less
familiar and must have proved harder to talk about.
On the other hand, speech is one of those aspects of the Buffyverse that has been streamlined for our
convenience and probably will not bear close inspection. Where is Anya's Scandinavian accent, if she
dated a guy called Olaf 1000 years ago? Or maybe she should be fluent in Middle English? Indeed,
why do all demons seem to speak perfect English (except when the plot requires otherwise), even
those from other dimensions? They seem to speak English even *in* other dimensions. The Pyleans
had this unpronounceable, vowel-less written language, but their speech was just slightly more
formal American English with a smattering of invented nouns thrown in. To my knowledge there has
been no explanation provided for English being the lingua franca of the demon world(s), not even
something as lame as the "Star Trek" universal translator.
Please understand. I am not complaining about this, because is much more practical for an American
TV show to be performed in English than 100s of real and invented foreign and otherworldly
tongues. Much of ME's great dialogue would be impossible with realistic language barriers, so I will
happily accept some short cuts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Speech and language in the Buffyverse -- Rob, 13:01:50 12/06/01 Thu
I agree with you 100%...and while, we're on the subject, what happened to Angel's Irish accent? He
lost his accent, yet Spike and Dru retain their English accents...It's just one of those things you have
to just shrug off and ignore, I say.
I'm also kind of glad they don't give a reason for all the demons speaking in English. They just do.
Accept it and move on.
I thought you might be interested that on "Farscape," everyone is implanted with
"translator microbes," tiny, one-celled organisms that live in the base of each creature's
brain and translate everything for everyone. So everyone sounds like they're talking in English but
are actually all speaking their own languages. Of course, this doesn't explain how their mouth
movements are all perfectly in-synch with the English language. I'd rather have one anomaly
(everyone speaking the same language) than two (the translated language having the same amount
of syllables as the English one).
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Speech and language in the Buffyverse -- JM, 13:12:56 12/06/01 Thu
I theorize that Pylea was colonized by demons who were living in England. They left in the early
1600s due to religious persecution (and painful inner-ear injuries caused by exposure to music). The
followers of the Council of Trombli were drawn from several races and took with them their human
servants. The council, who write the histories, have conviced the people of Pylea that this has been
their homeworld for millenium in order to keep them from exploring other dimensions. This also
would explain the castles, social structure, and relative underpopulation and geographic
consolidation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Speech and language in the Buffyverse -- Maxwell, 14:52:09 12/06/01 Thu
Where were Spike and Dru living just prior to their arrival in Sunnydale? It may be that they had
just spent many years somewhere in England and so kept or renewed their accents. Spike does speak
with a modern English accent (Liverpool maybe). We know that Angel spent at least some of this
time in recent years in New York and L.A. so would have lost his accent (i.e. picked up an American
accent).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Speech and language in the Buffyverse -- Lilac, 15:37:46 12/06/01
Thu
Since Spike's accent is an affectation, not the one he grew up with, there is no reason for him to lose
it -- he chose to have it. I am wondering when the SG is going to stop with the cutesy talk -- it was
cute for high school kids, but getting a little odd given their advancing ages.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Speech and language in the Buffyverse -- Simon Agenbroad,
06:09:22 12/07/01 Fri
I agree completely with your first point. His current working class accent is not even close the the
poof one that he grew up with. For him, the '70s punk era (when he killed his second slayer) may
have been his funnest decade in years. You can easily imagine hanging out at Warhol's factory with
the Velvet Underground. If you listen to the song "take a walk on the wild side" you get a
hint of the great feeding possiblities there. The whole British punk shtick would have gotten him all
the prey that he desired in '70s NYC. Keep in mind, that you can change your accent, it's a matter of
how much effort that you want to put into it. In the real world, Sidney Poitier had such a heavy
Islands accent when he came to this country that almost nobody could understand him. Perhaps if he
goes out with Buffy long enough he will adopt a SoCal accent. Or at least one more convincing than
the "Oh, I'm just a friend of 'Zander's" that he used when talking to Riley.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> lmao at the british demons and their inner ear problems!! -- sl, 18:53:38 12/06/01
Thu
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[> [> anya's modern speech -- anom, 21:16:01 12/06/01 Thu
"Where is Anya's Scandinavian accent, if she dated a guy called Olaf 1000 years ago? Or
maybe she should be fluent in Middle English?"
Maybe she is & it just hasn't come up yet. But she speaks Modern English w/an American
accent because when she was trapped in her current body, she had taken the form of a late-20th-
century California teenager, with all the appropriate knowledge of language & culture (fashion,
cliques, putdowns, etc.). At other times in her life as a demon, she must have spoken many other
languages (wonder if she remembers them all).
The real question is why Olaf spoke Modern--or any--English!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya's speech -- JM, 12:59:25 12/06/01 Thu
Somehow, I screwed up my reply and it apparently did not post. I'll try again.
It's probably all retcon, but Anya was confident, demon, and used to pretending in order to pass in
"The Wish" and "Dopplegangland."
As early as Graduation her awkwardness is most apparent when she's discussing emotions, the
scariest and most unfamiliar part of her new world. (That's kind of consistent in the Whedonverse,
since both Angel and Darla indicate that love is a different experience for the souled and the
unsouled.)
Season four she is less awkward because she exists in a universe of two and comfortably indulges in
her natural tendency toward rudeness. For most of the season she's basically selfish, except,
ocassionally, in regards to Xander. She is entirely unconcerned, repeatedly, about the safety of other
characters or their continued existence.
In season five, her behavior begins changing. I think that her articulation of love for Xander (though
she probably loved him long before that) was a big step in her emotional growth. Her universe of two
is growing larger. She cares about the safety of others than Xander and herself, risking injury to
defend Dawn, mourning Joyce. She seems to be becoming aware of what others think of her, and to
care. She is offended that Willow makes fun of her and that Giles doesn't think he can entrust the
shop to her.
I think that this emotional awareness impacts her communication. She more often considers what
she will say and its effect. However, it still comes out odd. Her mind works in interesting ways. Anya
will probably never be quite normal. Not just because she's an ex-demon, but also because she's
Anya. That's probably why Xander loves her.
PS I quite adore her and her speach. She's a bright, happy, innocent spot in a dark and angry
universe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Loved that last line of yours, JM... -- Rob, 13:04:38 12/06/01 Thu
...so much that I just have to repeat it here:
"I quite adore her and her speach. She's a bright, happy, innocent spot in a dark and angry
universe."
Wow! That's a really lovely thought. :)
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Loved that last line of yours, JM... -- Kimberly, 13:07:33 12/06/01 Thu
"She's a bright, happy, innocent spot in a dark and angry universe."
I agree with Rob here; what a beautiful, poetic phrasing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Loved that last line of yours, JM... -- JM, 13:20:52 12/06/01 Thu
Thanks, guys. This is the best Buffy board on the 'Net. I don't post all that often, because usually
someone has said it better or thought it through more clearly. It's good to know I can add a little
too.
Incidentally, I just started noticing your names relatively recently, Rob and Kimberly, but now yours
are now among the posts I make sure to check out even when I don't have time to read the whole
board. OK, mutualy admiration society out. LOL.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Loved that last line of yours, JM... -- Kimberly, 18:07:43 12/06/01
Thu
Thank you. I frequently feel the same way (that someone else has said it better or thought it through
more clearly). So I started coming up with wild analogies and thoughts. Crazy/weird/wild is
fun.
;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loved that last line of yours, JM... -- Rob, 08:45:27 12/07/01
Fri
Wow, thanks, JM! That's really nice. Now, I'm gonna have to work double-time on a long Buffy essay
I'm working on. ;)
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Loved that last line of yours, JM... -- Simon Agenbroad, 06:18:54 12/07/01
Fri
Both She and Spike share a brutal honesty. She is mostly unaware of (or at least hasn't internalized)
social convention and Spike actively rejects all sociel convention. I would actually like to see them
thrown together by circumstances more often. Their views of the SGs would be ..brutal and true;
therefore interesting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Anya's speech -- Shaglio, 13:49:31 12/06/01 Thu
Thanks everyone for your input and enlightenment! That's why I love this place.
On a side note, I was watching Buffy one night with a friend of mine who fancies herself a movie
critic and had never watched BtVS before. When Anya started talking, my friend winced and said,
"that girl cannot act." I tried to explain to her that a lot of stuff in the world was new to
Anya since she hadn't been a human for over 1000 years, but I had a hard time even convincing
myself. Too bad you guys weren't there with us - I could have used the back-up.
Demon hair care expounded ... -- Yellowork, 08:29:12 12/06/01 Thu
Referring back to the discussion of vampire's hair styles the other day, what about werewolves? Oz
had a pretty impressive range of hair colours and a fairly elaborate 'do. Surely switching backwards
and forwards between human and animal states would have wrought havoc with all this? Perhaps it
did! Thinking back, this might finally provide us with an explanation why Oz's (human) appearance
would vary wildly from show to show. Hmmm ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> What About Glory's "bad perm"? -- RH, 10:33:01 12/06/01 Thu
She was partly human - there was no excuse for THAT! (Lol!)
Go vote for Buffy in E!'s year-end poll! -- Rob, 09:04:38 12/06/01 Thu
http://www.eonline.com/Features/Features/Poll2001/index.html
There are a bunch of questions that "Buffy" is in, so be sure to vote for it in every
category! :-)
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Did it! -- Deeva, 09:25:31 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Me, too! -- Brian, 10:59:03 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Done! -- Marie, 12:00:03 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Pissed off at poll -- vampire hunter D, 12:57:41 12/06/01 Thu
number 18: Song we could have done without
Assholes, I like Linkin Park. And Because I got High was good too. And why can't I have two votes
for that one (one for Lady Marmelade and one for Pop)
And on a side note, one of the nominees for hottest fantasy was Jessica Alba and Jennifer Garner
mud wrestling. That's similar to my Faith/Max oil wrestling fantasy I posted here. Yuo don't suppose
the people from E! have been lurking here, do you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I like Linkin Park, too. Don't know what they ever did to get on that list. -- Deeva,
16:48:14 12/06/01 Thu
Santa Barbara is Sunnydale -- Eric Lehmann,
09:39:04 12/06/01 Thu
I may have posted this twice. If so I'm sorry.
Sunnydale is Santa Barbara – or at least it occupies the S.B. location in the Buffyverse. I’ve had
growing suspicions for weeks now. But I thought Joss’s creation made from whole cloth or based on a
collection of towns such as Santa Barbara, Oxnard, Ventura, etc. Oxnard can be ruled out because
Zander specifically names it as the place where his car broke down after graduation.
Anyhow, the similarities to S.B. were always striking. Buffy’s house always looked like houses in my
old neighborhood on De La Vina Street and others in town. Sunnydale High School is architecturally
similar to my Santa Barbara High School (home of my personal Hellmouth). (Yes, I know the actual
one is in Torrence) The few sunny outdoor scenes frequently had a Santa Barbara-esque feel to them.
The one where Oz leaves Willow shows him living in a house almost identical to one I used to live
near on Ortega Street. Of course the same scene shifts to a street with far more palm trees than
Santa Barbara – it may have been filmed in Santa Monica. Another scene shows a panoramic of the
Sunnydale rooftops that I swear was filmed from the Santa Barbara Courthouse tower-facing
southeast. An outside scene shot at night shows a streetlight that is pretty much unique to S.B. The
studio night time scenes on Sunnydale’s main drag show a small, but crowded downtown with lots of
pedestrian traffic much like State Street. Most other towns in California choose to be little L.A.s
where all travel must be by car. In the first college episode Willow or Buffy mention that the
University of California, Sunnydale is five miles away. This is pretty close to the distance the
University of California, Santa Barbara is to downtown Santa Barbara. The clincher comes in the
episode Buffy reveals to Riley she’s the Slayer (and an earthquake ensues). Giles tries to interest
Buffy in his map of the "commando" sightings in Sunnydale. The map, dotted with red
tacks, is obviously Santa Barbara. Giles even had it oriented correctly. Down load a map of Santa
Barbara and compare.
So what is "Sunnydale" like outside the Buffyverse? Again, it is architecturally similar.
Though the towns in the state indulge in urban sprawl, Santa Barbara is very pedestrian friendly.
Almost everything can be done on foot or by bus. And the residential streets and parks are virtually
unlit. The Slayer, a confessed pedestrian, and her prey would feel very much at home there. The
Spanish Mission was partially destroyed by an earthquake but never fell below ground and is a
popular tourist attraction. The Chumash Indians are alive and live on a reservation. Sadly, Willow’s
research on their treatment by the Spanish is pretty close to the truth. Local activists tried to change
a street named after what was a notable landmark in those times. Somehow they thought
"Indio Muerto" or Dead Indian Street was inappropriate. They did not succeed. There are
no vast caverns or sewers below the city except possibly one tunnel dug by a Chinese Tong a hundred
years ago. Santa Barbara used to have a large China Town and the Tong, committed to overthrowing
the Chinese Government. They left when about the time of the Boxer Rebellion and the China Town
disintegrated. You can still see their ceremonial altar in the town’s historical museum. There are
many wealthy people that live in mansions and large houses in town. So a lair such as Angel’s is not
out of the question.
Sunnydale natives live in a perpetual la la land where they ignore supernatural horrors in their
midst. Santa Barbarans live in a perpetual la la land where they ignore horrors outside Santa
Barbara. The town is exceedingly pleasant to live in and surprisingly insulated. There are no
epidemics of "neck ruptures" or missing persons. Most serious crimes must be imported
from Oxnard or L.A. Many times I walked the dark streets drunk as a skunk and never came close to
harm. But the cost of living is abominably high. Zander’s garage could be rented for $800 a month
easy this year and $900 next year. One thing that initially disturbed me about BtVS is that the
regular cast is made up of very photogenic actors. However, this actually jives pretty well with S.B.
since the town has five sizable colleges/universities that draw thousands of young students annually.
About 66% of them are female.
There are very few supernatural goings on in S.B. There is plenty of New Age activity but the few
serious magick users I met there claimed the town was magickally void. Willow would have to
commute to San Francisco to get some serious Mojo on. The only mystery I can think of off the top of
my head is the Spanish Army lost a cannon in town back when it was not much larger than a
postage stamp. How they did this is beyond me. The general location was a street now named
"Canon Perdido".
There were some vampires. I knew a guy that played Vampire the Masquerade quite heavily. He was
a brilliant grad student in his 30’s that got bored and used his game master status to play mind
games with his players. This Chantrell wannabee became a poster boy for the anti-RPG crowds by
roping some players into helping him burglarize office buildings. He was truly a brilliant thief, but
he fenced his loot locally and rumor has it one kid was not too mesmerized to talk to the police. The
"vampire master" went to jail. A local independent moviemaker made a film about it
called Fagan’s Children. Since many kids still play the Masquerade, I suspect a few vampires
remain.
One thing Sunnydale has that Santa Barbara doesn’t is The Bronze. There are many fine coffee
shops and bars, but no bars where high school kids and college kids can legally mix. One thing Santa
Barbara has that Sunnydale lacks is Mexicans. S.B. is filled with Mexicans. Many of them are from
families descended from the first Spanish settlers while others arrived yesterday. The old residents
have a strong presence and influence in the community. The illegals live on the fringe working as
maids and day laborers. If you get a chance visit "Sunnydale". I lived there for years and
someday I’ll go back. But stay on the well-lit streets at night. Safe as it is, you don’t want to tempt
fate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Santa Barbara is Sunnydale -- Wisewoman, 13:31:58 12/06/01 Thu
Thanks for the detailed travelogue. I've only passed through Santa Barbara once, so I don't
remember much about it. Joss has said though, more than once, that Sunnydale is, in fact, Santa
Barbara.
;o)
Remembering the Victims of the Montreal Massacre (not completely OT) -- Wisewoman,
11:32:53 12/06/01 Thu
Today is the 12th anniversary of the murder of 14 female engineering students at l'Ecole
Polytechnique in Montreal. In Canada it is a day of remembrance and mourning. JW has often said
that he is a feminist, and I wonder how the events of that day affected him, and if they might have
contributed to his determination to create a small, blonde, female character who doesn't get killed by
the bad guy? Buffy the Movie was released in 1992.
The Montréal Massacre
Reprinted from Canadian Psychology, Special Issue: Violence and It's Aftermath (Volume 33:2, 128-
139, 1992)
On Wednesday, December 6, 1989 a young man, 25 years old, product of a violent home, failed
military candidate and lover of war films, entered the University of Montréal's School of Engineering
building. He was not a student, although he had once studied for admission to the school. He was
carrying a .223 calibre semi-automatic rifle [1]. It was a little after 5:00 p.m.
Walking into a classroom, he shouted I want the women (Kuitenbrouwer, Scott, Lamey &
Heinrich, 1989). He separated the men from the women, ordered the men to leave the classroom, and
lined the women up along one wall. You are all feminists! he yelled and began shooting to kill
(Kuitenbrouwer et al., 1989). According to the professor, all nine women in his class were either
killed or wounded (Shepherd, 1989). There were approximately 48 men in the classroom (Came,
Burke, Ferzoco, O'Farrell & Wallace, 1989; The gunman's trail, 1989).
The young man continued his hunt, stalking his victims without obstruction. He had already
murdered one woman near the copying room prior to entering that first classroom. He killed six more
in the classroom, left, walked through the corridors firing randomly, entered the cafeteria, killed
three more women, then went into a second classroom, where he murdered four more women and
killed himself. By the end of his spree, he had murdered fourteen women and injured thirteen others:
nine women and four men.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Southam New Media News
Some facts about the 1989 massacre that left 14 women dead:
WHERE: Ecole polytechnique, the University of Montreal's engineering school.
WHEN: The afternoon of Dec. 6, 1989.
WHO: Marc Lepine, age 25.
HOW: Lepine was armed with a Sturm Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle, knives and bandoliers of
ammunitions.
WHY: Rejected when he applied for admission to the school, he blamed feminists for ruining his
life.
VICTIMS: Fourteen women killed; 13 others, most women, wounded.
NAMES OF THE DEAD: Genevieve Bergeron, 21: Helene Colgan, 23; Nathalie Croteau, 23; Barbara
Daigneault, 22; Anne-Marie Edward, 21; Maud Haviernick, 29; Barbara Maria Klucznik, 31; Maryse
Leclair, 23; Annie St-Arneault, 23; Michele Richard, 21; Maryse Laganiere, 25; Anne-Marie Lemay,
22; Sonia Pelletier, 28; Annie Turcotte, 21.
The Gunman's Letter
The following letter was found on the gunman's body after he shot 27 people in Montreal: murdering
14 women, wounding nine more women and 4 men December 6, 1989. Police have not officially
released the letter; this was leaked to a Montreal journalist, Francine Pelletier who wrote:
"I don't believe it is dangerous to have a window inside (this man's) head. Personally, I think it
is dangerous not to, to continue pretending the Polytechnique massacre had nothing to do with
anything but (his) insanity."
The public might have dealt with the trauma of the massacre more easily if the note had been made
public earlier instead of getting lost in "crazy and irrelevant hypotheses."
This man is repeatedly referred to in the media as a "madman", -- a horrible injustice to
those who are fighting and winning with mental illness in an ongoing every day struggle.
The notes in CAPS are those of martin dufresne from Montreal Men Against Sexism.
"Forgive the mistakes, I only had 15 minutes to write this.
See also Annex.
Please note that if I am committing suicide today 89/12/06 it is not for economic reasons (for I have
waited until I exhausted all my financial means, even refusing jobs) but for political reasons. For I
have decided to send Ad Patres (LATIN FOR "TO THE FATHERS") the feminists who
have ruined my life. It has been seven years that life does not bring me any joy and being totally
blase, I have decided to put an end to those viragos. I had already tried as a youth to enlist in the
(CANADIAN ARMED) Forces as an officer cadet, which would have allowed me to enter the arsenal
and precede Lortie in a rampage (REFERENCE TO AN EARLIER MASS KILLING IN QUEBEC, IN
1984). They refused me because of asociality. So I waited until this day to carry out all my projects.
In between, I continued my studies in a haphazard way for they never really interested me, knowing
in advance my fate. Which did not prevent me from obtaining very good marks despite not handing
in my theory assignments and studying little before exams. Even though the Mad Killer epithet will
be attributed to me by the media, I consider myself a rational and erudite person that only the
arrival of the Grim Reaper has forced to undertake extreme acts. For why persevere in existing if it
is only to please the government? Being rather retrograde by nature (except for science), the
feminists always have a talent for enraging me. They want to retain the advantages of being women
(e.g. cheaper insurance, extended maternity leave preceded by a preventive leave) while trying to
grab those of the men.
Thus, it is self-evident that if the Olympic Games removed the Men/Women distinction, there would
be only be women in the graceful events. So the feminists are not fighting to remove that barrier.
They are so opportunistic that they neglect to profit from the knowledge accumulated by men
throughout the ages. They always try to misrepresent them every time they can. Thus, the other day,
people were honoring the Canadian men and women who fought at the frontlines during the world
wars. How does this sit with the fact that women were not authorized to go to the frontline at the
time??? Will we hear of Caesar's female legions and female galley slaves who of course took up 50 per
cent of history's ranks, although they never existed? A real Casus Belli.
Sorry for this too brief letter."
(This was followed by a 19-name hit list of various Quebec women having achieved some advances in
traditionally male professions: accountancy, journalism, labor organizing, sportscasting, firefighting,
police work, etc., with the following note at the bottom:)
"Nearly died today. The lack of time (because I started too late) has allowed those radical
feminists to survive."
Alea Jacta EST." (LATIN FOR: THE DIE ARE CAST.)
WW
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Remembering the Victims of the Montreal Massacre (not completely OT) -- Kimberly,
12:00:04 12/06/01 Thu
I hadn't heard of this before; this world can be a sad, sad place. May the spirits of the women rest in
peace. And may we, somehow, find a way to grant peace and understanding to all the men who are
threatened by women who are strong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I can't believe it's been 12 years since that... time flies, but some things don't change --
Masquerade, 12:05:52 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Remembering the Victims of the Montreal Massacre (not completely OT) -- Morgane,
12:06:58 12/06/01 Thu
I come from and I live in Montreal, and each year I'm deeply touch by this tragedic anniversary. My
last year history teacher was there, this day, at the university of Montreal, and he told us what he
saw, and it freezed us all.
Let's hope that these women didn't die for nothing, and that people will remember enough to prevent
it happening again. I don't know if Joss think about this event when he wrote Buffy at first, but I
think that it's part of the reason, we all love this show : it's comforting to see a woman so strong, a
woman who couldn't get hurt because of men.
**A thought for all the victims and their family**
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Remembering the Victims of the Montreal Massacre (not completely OT) -- Aquitaine,
Proud Montréal Feminist, 15:03:55 12/06/01 Thu
12 years... and it seems like yesterday...
Are you still here? Are you standing in some corner? -
You knew so much of all this, you were able
to do so much; you passed through life so open
to all things, like an early morning. I know:
women suffer; for love means being alone;
and artists in their work sometimes intuit
that they must keep transforming, where they love.
You began both; both exist in that
which any fame takes from you and disfigures.
Oh you were far beyond all fame; were almost
invisible; had withdrawn your beauty, softly,
as one would lower a brightly-colored flag
on the gray morning after a holiday.
You had just one desire: a years-long work -
which was not finished; was somehow never finished...
- Requiem, Rainer Maria Rilke (Stephen Mitchell translator)
Thoughts on After Life for all you Symbolism interpreters -- Spike Lover, 12:14:18 12/06/01
Thu
Ok, I am sorry that I am just now finding the time to post this since seeing the rerun on Tues.
I have a question about the bloodied hands.
When Buffy comes down the stairs, Spike explains the new connection between him and Buffy. They
have both had to dig their way out of their coffin.
Okay.
Later, Buffy says she is going patrolling and instead makes a be line for Spike's. He is angry and he
slams his hand into a rock. Anyway, the writers reiterate the symbol of the bleeding hands by having
the dialogue go something like this.
BUFFY: Your hand is hurt.
Spike: So is yours.
Ok, at first I thought that this was actually going to be an Angel/Buffy reference because Buffy
would always tenderly come over to Angel and say your X is hurt. and then they would usually look
meaningfully into each others' eyes, etc., etc. (Even when Buffy is fighting w/ Angelus, when he is
suddenly "re-souled", the first things he says is "Your hurt.")
But anyway, since the scene w/ Spike & Buffy did not really go that way, I think the writers
must be trying to set up Spike's bleeding hand as a symbol. But what does it mean? Does it mean
that, like Buffy, Spike is about to return to a scary world? Or a world he formally dislike? Will he
become more like William? Does it mean something different??
Also, in the ending of that scene when Buffy is (again) confiding in Spike about being in Heaven, she
describes this world as "hard, bright, and violent". What does she mean by 'Bright'? You
know, most people would describe Heaven as being "Bright" or about 'following the light',
etc. What does this mean?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Thoughts on After Life for all you Symbolism interpreters (Season Six spoilers) -- Kimberly,
12:44:07 12/06/01 Thu
Your post triggered some random thoughts, so forgive me if they don't flow.
Hard and bright describes a diamond, so there's an additional tie-in with Smashed.
Bloodied hands, both Spike and Buffy. The only religious/literary figure I can think of with bloody
hands is Jesus or those emulating him. Buffy has been described as a Messianic figure before. Could
it be, ultimately, that it is the combination of Buffy/Spike that is the true Messianic figure of the
series, the pair that saves the world, once and for all, from vampires?
On that note, I have often wondered (and posted it as a response to an earlier thread somewhere) if
there will come a time when the only way to save one or more of the Scoobies will be for Spike to give
up a great deal of power. He is asked for his immortality, he thinks it means it will kill him when in
reality it destroys the demon (his immortality) and leaves him as William, with the memory of the
last 120 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Thoughts on After Life for all you Symbolism interpreters (Season Six spoilers) --
Spike Lover, 12:59:52 12/06/01 Thu
Interesting--
You never know where this show is going, so you may very well be right.
I think I will post here an ugly rumor I heard about BuffytVS. I find it very upsetting, but many who
have posted about the future of Dawn and why Giles left may find it poignant.
Someone at the office where I worked had a friend who was working around the set at BtVS studios.
Anyway, the word was that Sarah MG is such a primadonna and was so difficult to deal w/ that her
co-stars constantly wanted to get off the show. She said that the studio was so fed up w/ her that
they were willing to break their contract with the actress to be rid of her. Apparently when everyone
else returned to start shooting season 6, Sarah was no where to be found and did not show up for 2
weeks.
Anyway, supposedly the studio is wondering how the established audience would like the show if
Dawn became the new slayer. Would they be able to keep BtVS going or would they have to end the
show all together and start a spin off.
It makes you wonder as you think of all the people who have left the show over the years. For me,
Dawn simply would not have enough appeal for me to continue watching.- But Hollywood is always
seeking a younger audience. (w/ less mature "rated G" themes.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Don't believe everything you hear... -- RH, 13:57:24 12/06/01 Thu
I have read numerous reviews, and viewed many video clips of interviews with the cast of BtVS -
James Marsters consistently raves about how professional SMG is - how she is always punctual and
comes to work prepared, has her lines memorized, and is an overall wonderful and classy
person.
If you want to hear it straight from the "horse's" mouth, you can go to
www.jamesmarsters.com and watch the RealPlayer video clip under multimedia; video; Public/TV
Appearances; 14 Below musical performance (11/03/2001); "Chat Pidge".
Or just go here:
http://www.jamesmarsters.com/multimedia/video/14below11032001.html
The video site address is:
http://media.jamesmarsters.com/multimedia/video/14below11032001/chat_pidge.rm
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[> [> [> [> Re: Don't believe everything you hear... -- Rob, 09:15:12 12/07/01 Fri
This is not the first time rumors have spread about a lead actress being bitchy off-camera. In fact, it
happens almost every time a woman is the lead of a show. From numerous interviews I have read, it
is clear that "Buffy" has an extremely closely knit, warm cast. Emma Caulfield has
spoken about what a great, loving environment it is to work in. And the cast gets together often to
have Shakespeare readings. Joss and Marti have both written about how much they love working
with her, as did JM (see RH's post above). So I think that pretty much nixes that whole idea.
As far as the story that the network is priming MT to take over for SMG, I find that whole notion
ridiculous. For one thing, Dawn's only purpose on the show this year, so far, has been to be rescued.
Not really Slayer material. Further, I would say that, although I do like her, MT is not strong
enough of an actress to carry a whole show. I'll say it: She's no Sarah Michelle Gellar. Further, the
show has matured past a point that high school can be the primary theme again. We have followed
these characters through college and going out into the world. I don't believe that they would make a
high schooler the lead, and completely regress back to a first-season-type-state. This is not
"Saved By the Bell: The New Class".
Other things to take into consideration are, Dawn cannot be the next Slayer. At least until Faith
dies. And who's to say that the next Slayer would be Dawn after Faith? There are millions of girls in
the world. There is almost no logical chance of a girl and her sister both being called.
Those are my thoughts. I'm not sure how to wrap up, so I'll just say: Bye.
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't believe everything you hear... -- Moose, 14:34:59 12/07/01
Fri
Have to disagree with you on MT, Rob. I think she is coming into her own. I have been very
impressed with her acting skills. A year or two more and she may very well be capable enough to
take the show and run. However, I doubt that is the direction we are heading in.
No one is Sarah Michelle Gellar except SMG herself. And she has improved much since the
beginning of Buffy. Her acting in "The Body" was more than just natural talent, but
tempered with experience. MT just needs experience. I see plenty of talent there. Regardless, MT has
potential whether on this show or another.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Thoughts on After Life for all you Symbolism interpreters (Season Six spoilers) --
Aquitaine, 14:35:57 12/06/01 Thu
Could it be, ultimately, that it is the combination of Buffy/Spike that is the true Messianic figure of
the series, the pair that saves the world, once and for all, from vampires?
Based on the information we know now (and I suppose by gleaning some information from Fray, as a
friend of mine noted), your theory makes a great deal of sense. A joint sacrifice that results not in
loss, but in something unexpected and new.
there [may] will come a time when the only way to save one or more of the Scoobies will be for Spike
to give up a great deal of power. He is asked for his immortality, he thinks it means it will kill him
when in reality it destroys the demon (his immortality) and leaves him as William, with the memory
of the last 120 years.
This is also an interesting possibility. Especially since his chip 'goes out on a steady pulse' that
might, in the end, keep him alive as a non-demon.
Some very interesting theorising, Kimberly!
-Aquitaine
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[> I had the same question about her the word "bright"! -- RH, 13:15:22 12/06/01
Thu
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[> [> I mean - I had the same question about her use of the word "bright"! - Duh! --
RH, 13:16:51 12/06/01 Thu
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[> [> Re: I had the same question about her use of the word "bright"! --
Wisewoman, 13:27:40 12/06/01 Thu
What I've read about the Near Death Experience (NDE) indicates that people pretty much
unanimously describe seeing the brightest light they have ever seen, but that it doesn't hurt their
eyes to look right into it, and that it is somehow soft.
Maybe that was what Buffy was trying to say: that normal brightness, like the sun, hurts to look at
for too long, but that this was a gentler kind of bright?
;o)
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[> [> [> Re: I had the same question about her use of the word "bright"! -- Lilac,
13:31:39 12/06/01 Thu
I was thinking that she meant bright in terms of garish -- Las Vegas is bright, but one would hardly
call it heavenly.
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[> [> bright -- res, 23:27:43 12/06/01 Thu
There is definitely a brighness associated with "going towards the light" and a sort of
purification after death, but obviously buffy is talking about the harsh and unpleasant connotations
with brightness. I really liked the use of this word, because "hard" and
"violent" have obvious negative connotations, while "brightness" is something
that many people will first assume is beautiful, just like the SG assumed that Buffy would find her
return to the world beautiful, when the truth is that brightness can be painful. Also, it's interesting
in terms of her relationship w/ spike, since he's obviously not so fond of brightness - the sun kind
anyways. They've got some of the same enemies.
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[> Brightness -- Shaglio, 13:36:42 12/06/01 Thu
I assumed the "bright" refered to the fact that her eyes had dilated for 3 months while
she was dead, and then suddenly they opened again. I know she came back at night, but there were a
lot of flames around from the bikers. And she did tell everything to Spike during the daytime. After 3
months of having her eyes shut, it must have been hard for them to readjust to the light.
Either that or there's some deeper, more philosophical explanation that is beyond my intellectual
grasp.
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[> [> True, but wouldn't her body have been stiff and sore too? -- RH, 14:09:10 12/06/01
Thu
She hadn't moved in over 3 months - and yet she was still kicking demon butt like the well-oiled
Slayer she was before. Her bout with Spike took more of a toll on her!
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[> Re: Thoughts on After Life for all you Symbolism interpreters -- LoriAnn, 14:04:17 12/06/01
Thu
"Buffy would always tenderly come over to Angel and say your X is hurt."
I'm shocked. Did she hurt his X often?
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[> why this world seems bright -- change, 16:04:55 12/06/01 Thu
I think the use of the phrase "hard, bright, and violent" to describe this world is meant to
indicate the place Buffy was in before was soft, dark, and peaceful. Her whole description of Heaven
and how she was brought to Earth is a metaphore for being in the womb and then being born. So,
this world seems bright to her because the womb was dark.
There are several threads that go into great detail about the metaphores in After Life. They should
be in the archives somewhere from when this episode first aired.
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[> [> Re: why this world seems bright -- Rob, 09:18:55 12/07/01 Fri
I saw it as a differentiation between "harsh" light and "soft" light. Yes, the
light of heaven might be bright, but it is not a sharp, garish bright. It is more a peaceful, loving, soft
bright. The brightness of the real world to Buffy is harsh, sharp, and ugly.
Rob
Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -- Spike Lover, 12:39:31 12/06/01 Thu
For lack of anything better to do, I re-watched Wrecked the other day. First, I have to say that y'all
were right about the "light" in the smashed house. It is very intentional.
I was thinking about the end scene where Willow is confessing to Buffy about her addiction to magic
and Buffy is sort of saying, "...it should stop, no matter how good it feels- because it can hurt
people."
Up to this point, I have seen Buffy as in love w/ Spike, but unwilling to admit it to herself or anyone
else. I still believe this and hope this is true. And I have interpreted this quote as her mistaken belief
that her attraction to Spike is simple addiction.
Another thought occurred to me. What if Buffy is not lying to herself, and she feels nothing for
Spike- whatsoever.
(I instantly get angry and say that Buffy needs to have her teeth kicked in.)
And if she does not feel anything for Spike, her statement to Willow is actually her awareness that
she has the potential to become a sex addict.
Admittedly, it is hard to imagine Buffy as a sex addict. You would expect a sex addict to be someone
who sleeps around all the time and indescriminately. (Faith?) However, it was pretty much admitted
that she did not love Riley, and they were in the sack all the time. (Do you remember the episode in
the fraternity house where they have so much sex that the vines grow over the dorm room? The
house itself has gone crazy and yet, Buffy & Riley can do nothing (to the peril of the scoobies)
except repeatedly get it on? Could Buffy be aware (already) that she has a problem?
So here we are with Spike. She has already told him that she has no special attraction to him and
that he was just "convenient". Well, that sounds like a sex addict symptom, doesn't
it?
Here's another thought: If the only way an addict can kick an addiction is through not having any
more (alcohol or whatever), then the only relationship Buffy can have is a celibate one like w/
Angel?
If this is true, then Buff and Willow have a similary problem. As has been pointed out, the scoobies
and Buff are probably going to have to utilize magics to fight whatever they have to fight. (Kind of
like an alcoholic working as a bartender.) And Spike who is so willing to get it on w/ Buffy is going to
be needed to help her fight whatever demon they are up against.
Now, should we look at the last part of the quote "no matter how good it feels - because it hurts
people."
What people? Spike? Well, if she does not care about him, then I think she could care less if he is
hurt or not. (In which case I get angry and want someone to kick her teeth in.)
I mean, who is she to continually dump her problems on Spike (protect my mom & Sis, find
Dawn, protect Dawn, find Dawn, find Dawn, find Dawn) and then decide she owes him nothing? She
really is the most selfish bitch. And if she truly does feel nothing- what a user she is!
The "people" who might get hurt? Who would that be then? The scoobies? Does she fear
that they will be disappointed in her? Or does she fear that Spike will pull an Angelus and turn on
them all? -No, wait, he still has a chip.
That is not going to happen.
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[> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- Spike Lover, 12:50:13 12/06/01 Thu
Finally, the Buffy-bot. Buffy took the robot away from Spike because "It isn't real."
In OMwF, Buffy sings to Spike, "I know this isn't real, but I just want to feel."
The interesting thing about the Buffy -Bot was that she was designed to speak. Spike wanted it that
way because he was using the bot as a substitute for a relationship that he wanted w/ Buffy. (not just
sex)
The robot talked and thought, and Spike was pretty much ok with what it said. The bot was allowed
to be itself.
Contrast this w/ Buffy in Wrecked. The morning after, she says to Spike, "Can we not
talk?" "If you tell anyone, I swear to God I will kill you."
Contrast this w/ Willow and Tara, though I can't remember the quote. When after OMwF, Tara tells
Willow she is doing too much magic, Willow gets mad and tells her she should not say
anything.
contrast again Anya and Xander's (mostly healthy) relationship. Anya certainly has her own
thoughts, and Xander can not get her to be quiet.
So, is Buffy just being utterly selfish, making Spike her boy-toy without any concern for him. Does
she know she has a propensity for sexual addiction?
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[> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- Lilac, 13:19:55 12/06/01 Thu
I know that Buffy is, herself, positioning what she feels for Spike as an addiction. She takes what
Xander, Anya, and even Willow say about Willow's problem and extrapolates it to her own situation.
It seems to me that she is desperately trying to deny her feelings in the relationship. It is easier for
her to term it an addiction to sex with Spike that it would be for her to accept that she is in a
relationship with him. She tells him that he is just convenient -- this isn't really true in any sense
except for proximity -- Spike is really inconvenient in that he keeps making demands, calling her
bluff, and in general giving her trouble. Surely some college boy or boys at the Bronze would be more
convenient if sex was all it was about.
Now that their relationship has turned overtly sexual, she has decided it is an addiction and
dangerous to other people. Well, it wasn't good that she didn't come home to take care of her sister,
but she did have a reasonable (although incorrect) expectation that another adult would be home.
Other than that, the only people the relationship is causing trouble to are Buffy and Spike. She has
trouble because she is so busy alternately rejecting him and tackling him, he has trouble for the
same reasons.
Was it an addiction when she was going to see him every night for help patrolling or to
"pump" him for information? She didn't think so. My feeling is that she has real feelings
for him, not just physically but also as someone who she can depend on and who she can count on
being there for her. Maybe it's love, maybe it's not. She could justify her connection to him when she
explained it away as a work thing. Clearly that was not all that was going on, but she has not yet
come to a place where she can admit that to herself.
Spike was aware of his feelings for Buffy long ago, and wasn't crazy about them when he first
recognized them. He has had a while to come to terms with the idea that he is enamoured of his
former worst enemy, and that the side of the line he stands on has changed. Buffy hasn't had the
time she needs to process all of this yet. Besides, as the "good" side of this good/evil
thing, she has more to lose, or to think she will lose, in this relationship.
Now, this is a little side tangent. I like the Spike character a lot, I like the dynamic of the
Spike/Buffy thing, but what keeps coming to my mind is the question of whether it is acceptable to
lay down with evil just because it has a pretty face. In the real world, I would tend to say no --
certainly if a young woman came to me and told me about a boyfriend like Spike -- real cute, but has
a terrible temper, says really mean things when he is angry, and likes violence, but he can be so
sweet -- I would tell her to run in the opposite direction and fast. In the real world, this would never
work. So, while I like the way Spike is written and portrayed, and like the way the characters relate
and the actors's chemistry, I feel a little guilty rooting for Spike to succeed. Got to keep reminding
myself it's fiction.
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[> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- maddog, 07:40:02 12/07/01 Fri
It occurs to me that there's more to the convenience of Spike. I think what she may mean is that he
knows her, he knows her for who she is and can accept that and still have a sexual relationship with
her...cause in the end, both Angel and Riley couldn't.
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[> [> [> The subversion factor -- again -- verdantheart, 08:08:26 12/07/01 Fri
You feel a little guilty rooting for Spike? That's understandable. BtVS likes to play with our
sensibilities -- make the "bad guy" the sympathetic one. Perhaps it reveals a perversion
on my part, but I really like that. It challenges my assumptions.
But then, I've always been one to look at the villain's point of view. I've often found myself cheering
for a villain, if he/she is particularly sympathetic or the good guys are particularly irritating or self-
righteous (and when it isn't the author's intent that I feel that way). Besides, villains tend to be the
more interesting characters. Buffy is an unusually complex heroine (although not necessarily a
reflective one)--and she doesn't always do the popular/likeable/"correct" thing.
In the real world, things are a bit different. So if one were to try to equate BtVS with the real world,
one would probably tend to run into trouble. As Marti Noxon says, this show isn't for small children
(or, probably, for small minds).
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[> [> [> [> Re: The subversion factor -- again -- Kimberly, 08:25:33 12/07/01 Fri
I agree that BtVS is rare in that it is one of the few shows in which my favorite character is the hero.
Typically, I find the most interesting character the sidekick or, if he's complex, sometimes the villain
(although I generally don't like the "bad boy" type.)
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[> [> [> Re: in the real world... -- Juliette, 10:12:02 12/08/01 Sat
"In the real world, if a girl told me about a boyfiend like Spike...I would tell her to run in the
opposite direction and fast"
So would I, because she would be in danger from him. In the real world, women are more vulnerable
than men and any potentially violent relationship is to be avoided at all costs as it puts the woman
in very real danger. In Buffyverse however, Buffy and Spike are equal. Physically, they are as strong
as each other. So I think that helps - any vulnerability in the relationship is purely psychological. So
in Buffyverse, it can work.
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[> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- Kimberly, 13:32:50 12/06/01 Thu
I don't think Buffy is a sex addict. I do think she feels incomplete, less than human, when she's not
in a relationship.
When Angel died, Buffy took time to grieve, but then was looking for a boyfriend. She then stayed
with Angel (not complaining about the essential celibacy) until he left.
She started college and, after a very little time to figure it out, started "dating" Parker.
When it became apparent that he only wanted a one-night stand, she was again looking for a
boyfriend. That was Riley, who she dated for a while (seven episodes, from The Initiative to The I in
Team) before she began sleeping with.
After he left, Buffy was contemplating going out with Ben, but decided ". . . look at me
obsessing about being with someone. It's like ... I don't need a guy right now. I need me. I need to get
comfortable being alone with Buffy".
Now, she's back, and she's no longer comfortable being alone with herself, so she's back to looking for
a relationship. And there's Spike, ready, willing, able and there. Although there's been sex, I think
what Buffy is actually looking for is a relationship.
Is there such a thing as a relationship-addict? There are certainly many, if not most, people who get
involved in relationships that aren't good for them. I think, in the long run, Buffy and Spike will be
good for each other, which doesn't mean their relationship will be a good one or a healthy one.
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[> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 (small spoilery) -- purplegrrl, 13:48:51 12/06/01
Thu
Maybe "relationship-addict" is not the correct term, but there are definately people who
can be labeled as such. Men and women who don't feel complete or need someone to take of/take of
them will go from relationship to relationship, often without analyzing how or why the previous one
ended.
I think Buffy is struggling with a series of failed relationships, the stereotype that she *needs* a
man in her life, wanting to go it on her own, and wanting a man who will be partner, companion, and
lover. She's not sure which direction she wants to go. Spike is "convenient" because he
has professed his love for her and is willing to hang around even (or maybe especially) when she
beats him up. Buffy wants to feel re-connected to life after her resurrection and Spike is there to
offer what he can.
Buffy told Spike that everything here is bright and hard. Perhaps she can only connect with the
pain. The pain of their "foreplay", the pain of another bizarre relationship, etc. The whole
idea of being with Spike is painful for Buffy, but she keeps returning to it. The pain is what makes
her feel alive.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 (small spoilery) -- Kimberly, 14:00:51
12/06/01 Thu
A relationship between "brightness" and "pain": to those of us who suffer
migraines, bright light to a migraineur is agony. Is Buffy suffering from a migraine of the soul? (I'll
have to develop this later, have to get the kid.)
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[> [> [> [> [> "migraine of the soul" -- purplegrrl, 13:09:59 12/07/01
Fri
Hmmm. Interesting analogy. I, too, on the rare occasion suffer from magraines.
Is this a case of Buffy continuing to want what she can't have? She wants to be normal, she wants a
normal relationship with a guy, she wants to be an only child, she wants supportive friends, she
wants a mentor, she wants a loving parent. The list goes on. All this wanting has caused her pain.
And the brightness and hardness of this world/dimension (in Buffy's current state of mind) does little
more than aggrevate her condition.
When you have a migraine, any sensation is painful -- light, sound, smell, touch. A dark, silent place
where you can feel as if you're floating is a wonderful thing. Buffy wants to return to her
"wonderful place" but this world keeps intruding, giving her pain.
But pain is also what is making her feel alive right now, so she is actively seeking it out by going to
Spike. She torments him. They fight, they dance, they shag. The mental pain is incredible. But Buffy
feels alive.
Maybe she's not a sex addict, but a pain addict??
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[> [> [> [> Buffy and Abandonment -- Tillow, 06:10:16 12/07/01 Fri
I agree with you about the "relationship-addict" thing even recognizing that it is indeed
too strong a term. (Maybe we need a better one:) I've often thought it was interesting that this strong
female hero has dealt with such feelings of abandonment, particularly from the male figures in her
life, beginning with her father and culminating most recently with Giles.
The scenes with Parker broke my heart. Why was Buffy so needy and pathetic. I think it is part of
her struggle to be a normal girl. It has been suggested on the boards by several people that the
feeling of normalcy is her true addiction; the one idea that she just can't let go of. And embracing a
relationship with Spike would be really letting go of that. Perhaps that's why we keep getting lines
from him like... "You're a creature of the night, like me." I get mad at the character when
he says things like that but that's his role. To say those uncomfortable things that no one wants to
talk about.
I think Buffy's fear of losing her ability to love as seen in Intervention is proof that she is not really a
sex addict. That's a bit too self-aware, if you know what I mean. If anything, she's addicted to what
she can never have, what Angel and she agreed she should have, a normal life. But even though she
can't have a normal life, she still can't have Angel because of the curse so she's stuck between a rock
and a hard place and Spike's just getting the brunt of her anger as she realizes this.
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[> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- maddog, 07:44:48 12/07/01 Fri
I think you hit the nail on the head there...and relationship-addict fits it perfectly(damn, did I just
agree with you). But I will say this...Buffy never seems to hesitate when it comes to sleeping with the
boyfriends...so maybe it's somewhere in between sex and relationship addict.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- Kimberly, 08:20:31 12/07/01 Fri
Oh no, maddog and I agreed! We have an apocalypse to stop here! ROTLMAO
I don't see her as a sex addict. Yes, she sleeps with her boyfriends. In her shoes, so would I. Doesn't
mean she's addicted to sex, just means she enjoys it. Which she should, sex is one of life's great
pleasures.
Buffy's problem, to me, is that she's afraid of being on her own without a relationship. She defines
herself as a normal person as one in a relationship. In our society, although we are trying to get over
it, women are defined by their relationships to men: Someone's daughter, Someone's wife, Someone's
mother, not Someone herself. Although Buffy is physically strong, one of her endearing and realistic
qualities is that she has bought into this belief. For her to grow up and to truly come into her own,
she must realize that she cannot define herself as a relationship, but as herself. To a degree, even
defining herself as the Slayer continues this.
I see Buffy's biggest job right now is figuring out precisely who she is and who she wants to be and, if
the two aren't the same, working towards the latter. She can't deny her extraordinary abilities or her
destiny, they are a part of her, but she can decide what SHE wants to do with them. Not prophecy,
not the Council, not Giles, not a boyfriend--just Buffy. If she can do that, she'll be an amazingly
strong person, not just a physically strong one.
A little drift from where this started. Sex is one of life's pleasures and I don't see Buffy abusing it.
Abusing Spike OTOH . . . she is doing that. Encouraging that he's now refusing to put up with it any
longer.
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[> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- LoriAnn, 13:56:39 12/06/01 Thu
"Does she know she has a propensity for sexual addiction?"
Sex addiction doesn't seem to be Buffy's problem. It wasn't an addiction to sex that kept her and
Riley going as the vines grew around the house; it was some ghostly spell. Moreover, were she a sex
adict, we would have seen a lot more of her and whoever having sex than we have. She's only been
with four men. There can't be a doubt that she has a healthy appetite for sex, and for someone with
slayer-strength and slayer recuperative powers, even the rough sex with Spike doesn't seem
unreasonable. It would be for almost anyone else, I would think, but not them.
Is Buffy using Spike? I think she is. It doesn't derive from her consciously using him, but from her
lying to herself. She's willing to be a user to avoid being a lover in any way other than physically, if
that. Have you noticed the progression in the relationship between her and Spike. When he gets
chipped, she takes him in and protects him; however, she clearly sees him as scum. When she has a
problem though, she hires him, but she still looks down on him. Later, she comes to trust him with
her sister and mother and doesn't offer money to him as an inducement. She is getting comfortable
with him. When she finds Spike loves her, she is confused by the possibility of such a thing, by her
potentially having encouraged him ("With him, getting beaten up is like geting to third
base."), and perhaps by her own budding feelings. She falls back on "you're beneath
me" to keep him at bay. But he proves himself when he's captured by Glory, and she starts to
trust him again and even gives him a little kiss by way of reward. They get much more comfortable.
She comes to depend on him. Then she dies. When she comes back, she's more comfortable with him
than with anyone else and confides in him. This lasts until OMwF when Spike, under the spell of
Sweet, lets his feelings out. Buffy, still denying her attraction to him, lip-locks with Spike in an
attempt to feel. Then, next ep, she spurns him. She helps him, but she spurns him. At this point, the
confused Spike starts to get pushy. The ep ends in another lip-lock. Spike's insistance that there is
something between then--the kisses mean something--causes Buffy to fall back on her old standby,
looking down on Spike. This seems an act of desperation.
Then they do it and bring the house down in the process. The next morning, the scene when they
wake up together reminds me a little of a somewhat similar scene in "The Goodbye Girl."
He thinks they have comsumated their relationship, and she thinks they've had sex--the reverse of
her and Parker. Spike gets more upset with her and mouths off, and she again goes into you're-a-
thing-mode. She tries to hurt him and succeeds, as he had done to her. Later, when Dawn is once
more in trouble--after all, it is Tuesday--she goes to Spike for help. She still depends on him in a
pinch and doesn't doubt he will help her. They argue as they walk along, but are reasonably civil
about it. Despite the arguing they seem more comfortable with each other. Then we get her speech to
Willow. "It feels good," clearly associating her problem with Spike with Willow's
addiction, but all of her chipped-Spike history up to now belies the idea that she is addicted to either
Spike or sex. She has latched onto yet another excuse to keep Spike at a distance. It has become
harder to think he's below her, it's become harder to do without his help and his empathy, it's
become harder to deny her feelings for him. She needs a new excuse, and this one, having been
simmering for an ep or two, comes to full boil: she has an addiction to Spike or sex, and since
addictions harm loved ones, her addiction will harm those closest too her.
What would really happen, however, if she told the SG she was WITH Spike? Zander would be
furious but nothing new there, Anya would say, "Right on, go demon love" and
congratulate her, Willow would look very worried, very worried, and ask if she were sure this was a
good idea, Tara would be disgustingly understanding, Giles would jump off the Tower Bridge, and
Dawn could go either way. She would either be extatic or totally against it. She might even be
jealous. I expect she might see the pairing as an opportunity to return to normalcy or at least as
normal as human/vampire cohabitation can get, which would give her something akin to a
family.
Sorry I rambled on so long, but I hope this contributes to the dialog, and I love to write about Spike
and Buffy. While I don't consider myself a shipper, I am greatly enjoying the ins and outs of their
attempt at courtship, which is what I think all of the interplay since Spike was chipped and
particularly since he realized he loved her has been. I expect to see them get together, but there will
probably be one or two major disasters first. True love travels on a gravel road--that's what Elvis
sang, so it must be true, so they will get their windshields dinged a bit before they settle into a good
relationship. Then will come the cataclysm. What else can we possibly expect from ME.
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[> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- Spike Lover, 12:36:10 12/07/01 Fri
You forgot to add in you speculation of how the Scoobies would respond to the news about a
Spike/Buffy pairing:
Willow: Are you certain this is a good idea? I am to blame for this because I brought her back from
Heaven (wrong). I think I know just the spell to fix this.
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[> [> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- Sophie, 17:41:54 12/07/01 Fri
*** Is Buffy using Spike? ***
I am inclined to agree that Buffy is using Spike. Abusing Spike, even. Buffy seems to have become a
sexual yo-yo in her relationship with Spike. I really doubt that is what Buffy intends. I agree that
Buffy wants someone that she can trust with her secrets, as well as trust with Dawn, and provide
support when she feels inadequate. She seems to be having trouble deciding if she wants Spike to fill
this role or not. Thus resulting in her hot today, cold tomorrow attitude towards Spike.
Establishing a platonic confidant-type relationship with a guy can be difficult. The quality of
confidant is very intimate and it can be hard to establish intimacy without getting sexual - especially
if the guy is keenly interested in having sex with the girl.
Meanwhile, Spike has had two relationships that we know about. In the first, he was used by
Drusilla. In the second, he adopts the role that he learned from Drusilla and uses Harmony. Now we
see Spike accepting his third relationship, with Buffy. He has swung back to letting himself be used.
Unless he observed a balanced relationship between his parents while he was growing up, he has no
knowledge of what a balanced relationship is like. He has no good example to compare his own
relationships to. He may have subconsciously concluded that he enjoyed his relationship with Dru
more than his relationship with Harmony. So with Buffy, Spike returns to the Dru relationship
model.
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[> [> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -part 2 -- maddog, 07:30:44 12/07/01 Fri
I think she's in denial, and because of that isn't thinking about Spike's feelings...probably pushing it
off by saying he's a vamp and doesn't have any. Seems to be her mood lately...let's just hope she
snaps out of it.
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[> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -- bookworm, 18:53:15 12/06/01 Thu
I doubt it. I think sex combined with violence is definitely a turn-on for her, but it's not with just any
man. She's attracted to Spike in a way she wasn't to Riley. Fighting and having sex with a Spike was
a release for her pent-up anger and aggression and a way to feel something besides numbness. She
does feel something for Spike, which scares her because it seems so wrong. She's using him and then
pushing him away because she's confused and hurting herself. She might have a problem if she
started banging a new vampire every night.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Is Buffy a Sex- Addict -- Wolfhowl3, 22:29:22 12/06/01 Thu
Here's another thought: If the only way an addict can kick an addiction is through not having any
more (alcohol or whatever), then the only relationship Buffy can have is a celibate one like w/
Angel?
I am not totally sure, but i think that there is a treatment for Sex addiction that does not involve
becoming completely Celibate. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Wolfhowl
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> If that is so..... -- Rahael, 03:19:08 12/07/01 Fri
(that Buffy now has to become celibate) then Joss is a misogynist, something I never thought he was,
or is.
He has specifically stated that he did not want to be seen as punishing Buffy for having sex. That is
what a great deal of Western literature and media has done for hundreds of years.
Why shouldn't Buffy have second thoughts about sleeping with Spike? All human relations are
fraught with tensions and misgivings. Trusting other people has always been a problem for Buffy.
She is shown as having choices, and having dilemmas. If she just took one look at Spike and went
"Oh, Spike, you are so kewl, of course I must jump into bed with you!" that wouldn't be
the serious and complex drama series I watch (the only one I watch now). Personally, I don't think
that Buffy is suffering from sex addiction. Why be condemned for a crime which you haven't even
had the pleasure of committing?? I never realised that Buffy was seen as having some abnormally
active sex life. Seemed positively abstemious to me.
Treat for the Ladies -- vampire hunter D, 13:02:07 12/06/01 Thu
I was checking out the website for my 3rd favorite tv show (Andromeda) and found this. Check it out
girls (and maybe some guys. There's nothing wrong wtih that if that's who you are).
http://www.andromedatv.com/galleries/james/index.html
btw, if your wondering what #2 is, it's Farscape
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Thanks, D! -- Wisewoman, 13:14:09 12/06/01 Thu
That was very thoughtful of you!
;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Oooooh! Fire bad; James pretty! ;) -- RH, 13:27:16 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Treat for the Ladies -- purplegrrl, 13:29:30 12/06/01 Thu
Somebody else already posted this several days ago.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Much appreciated...thanks a bunch! ;) -- LadyStarlight, 14:48:25 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> An Admittedly Shallow Question... -- AngelVSAngelus, 20:12:30 12/06/01 Thu
Anyone else think Marster's hair style in these pics from Andromeda is more attractive than his
simply combed back hair on Buffy?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: An Admittedly Shallow Question... -- Shiver, 05:50:30 12/07/01 Fri
I much prefer the touseled look to the slicked back type. Slicking the hair back makes him look much
starker, more evil I guess ;-) James has such pretty curls, and looks best a little rumpled!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: An Admittedly Shallow Question... -- pagangodess, 06:39:13 12/07/01 Fri
I agree, I much prefer his hair in Andromeda.
Where did that pesky thread go? -- Humanitas, 15:31:24 12/06/01 Thu
Someone asked me about Lilith last night, and I remembered the post here, and was going to refer
my frined to it, but now I can't find the thing! I know we've been even more prolific than normal, and
threads have been archinving like crazy, but I thought it would still be there. Silly me. Anyway, can
anyone help me out on this?
Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> If it's in the archive, I can bring it back out. -- Masq, 16:25:13 12/06/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: If it's in the archive, I can bring it back out. -- Humanitas, 18:27:56 12/06/01
Thu
That would be wonderful, Masq, except that I can't find it in the pages still available. I know you're
awfully busy, and I hate to ask you to hunt for it, but if you get a chance, I'd really appreciate
it.
Otherwise, if anyone else happens to have a copy somewhere, let me know.
Thanks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> You don't know the post title? -- Masq, 09:53:39 12/07/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: You don't know the post title? -- Humanitas, 15:47:52 12/07/01 Fri
Not the exact title, but I think it had the name "Lilith" in it. Not much help, am I? If you
can't find it, it's ok. Thanks for trying, though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> The thread fell off the board when they cut our number of active
archives to '5', but.... -- Masquerade, 06:55:12 12/10/01 Mon
I have it backed up on my hard drive and can send you a copy. Alternatively, it will appear in the
November ivyweb archives when they're up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ooh! If you could send me a copy, I'd be most grateful. --
Humanitas, 16:07:00 12/11/01 Tue
Your the best, Masq. Thanks.
Loads of Cyber-chocolate headded your way! ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Loads of Lilith talk coming your way -- Masq, 21:12:33
12/11/01 Tue
Let me know when you get the email.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Humanitas, if you really want to make sure past posts
are accessible . . . -- d'Herblay, 22:38:14 12/11/01 Tue
. . . you could always volunteer to help code the archives. I've got about 3 megabytes of October posts
I can send you.
It would be a great service to Masq and the board, plus it's easy to do and a whole lot of fun! I also
have this picket fence that needs white-washing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> d'Herb, shame on you.... ; ) -- Masq, 07:03:44
12/12/01 Wed
Just kidding. You are of course welcome to decline the job, pass it on, mail it back, or even lose it in
the cyberether. 'Course, I did start working on that "Mayor" character analysis page last
night.... : )
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd love to, but I'm swamped. -- Humanitas,
16:21:17 12/13/01 Thu
It's ging to be all I can do to get my essay for the Quarterly done in time (although i did manage to
figure out where it's going to go).
Buffy: Migraine of the Soul (Season 6 spoilers) -- Kimberly, 16:40:25 12/06/01 Thu
I'm going to make a weird metaphor/analogy (I'm not too sure of the distinction) to see how it fits
with what's happening.
As anyone who has ever suffered from a migraine knows, there are an assortment of symptoms that
go along with them, symptoms that seem a lot like what Buffy is currently going through. They
include: excruciating pain, cold hands, and sensitivity to bright light, noise and touch, among others.
Buffy mentions that the world is bright, she initially flinches from people talking too loudly at her
and from touching her. She also complains of being frozen.
In addition to the basic symptoms, there are two other ways in which Buffy post-resurrection is
similar to someone suffering (or recovering) from a migraine. First, after the migraine is gone, the
sufferer is frequently distracted from the world around her. Second, migraines and depression are
correlated, those who suffer one frequently suffer the other.
Obviously, Buffy is not suffering from a migraine (or migraines), but the correlations were too close
for me not to bring them up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Buffy: Migraine of the Soul (Season 6 spoilers) -- Rufus, 16:45:27 12/06/01 Thu
I think that the suffering and symptoms of a migrane is a good way to describe the sensory overload
that Buffy is trying to work her way through. Though it may no longer be nearly as blinding, this
world is too much for her at the moment. The constant demands of life and her calling as slayer must
be jarring after being in a warm, loving, complete, place.
Her sex with Spike may seem to be just a method of escape, but I'd think that if it was escape she
were after any guy would do. Not a being that is an "evil, disgusting, thing". So, what is
going on? Furthermore, what will both parties end up learning from what at first glance seems to be
an extended one night stand?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> "migraine of the soul" -- purplegrrl, 13:22:38 12/07/01 Fri
I posted this below under the "sex addict" thread, but thought I'd re-post it here (with
some minor changes/additions). Thanks for your patience.
**********
Hmmm. Interesting analogy. I, too, on the rare occasion suffer from magraines.
Is this a case of Buffy continuing to want what she can't have? She wants to be normal, she wants a
normal relationship with a guy, she wants to be an only child, she wants supportive friends, she
wants a mentor, she wants a loving parent. The list goes on. All this wanting has caused her pain.
Dying allowed her to forget about all the pain in her life and just "be Buffy." Now the
brightness and hardness of this world/dimension (in Buffy's current state of mind) does little more
than aggrevate her condition.
When you have a migraine, any sensation is painful -- light, sound, smell, touch. A dark, silent place
where you can feel as if you're floating is a wonderful thing. Buffy wants to return to her
"wonderful place" but this world keeps intruding, giving her pain.
But pain is also what is making her feel alive right now, so she is actively seeking it out by going to
Spike. She torments him. They fight, they dance, they shag. The mental pain is incredible. But Buffy
feels alive.
Maybe she's not a sex addict, but a pain addict??
Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! See thread below... -- Marie, 16:57:43 12/06/01
Thu
Only two brave takers so far - I thought you guys were braver than that! Scared you might get
'Doppelgangerland'?
M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! See thread below... -- Humanitas, 18:58:39
12/06/01 Thu
Posted! Just barely managed to dodge "Inca Mummy Girl," too. >whew!<
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! This is Fun! (eps 1 - 22) -- MrDave, 00:28:13
12/07/01 Fri
[This is all the posted eps edited (barely) together into a single post
--MrDave]
Date Posted: 03:49:11 12/06/01 Thu
Author: Marie
Subject: Episodes 1-3
In reply to:
Marie's message, "A challenge for the writers out there!" on 03:49:11 12/06/01 Thu
Buffy looked around at her friends - her family - and smiled to herself. This was why she'd come
back, she thought. They'd had a good night. The local movie theatre was having a Marx Brothers
week and they'd all gone together. A normal night, she thought, tucking her arm companionably
through Dawn's. Duck Soup and pizza with everything on it. What more could she ask.
"Slayer." The voice came from the side street ahead, and two vampires stepped out in
front of them. "Come all the way from Canada to kill you."
Sliding her arm from Dawn's, and pushing her gently towards Willow, Buffy raised a brow.
"Canada? I like Canadians. They have... er, chocolate, and, um, cats." As she spoke, she
slipped a stake from her sleeve and kicked out. "Let me extend a warm welcome to the
Hellmouth!" Spinning on her heel, she struck once, twice, and stepped back to her sister.
"So, you were saying?"
Dawn grinned. "We were just wondering how Giles was doing. I was telling the others what he
said in his letter."
"Yeah," Xander chipped in. "Giles on a farm? Can't see 'im milking cows, can you?
Or getting the harvest in!"
"Well, he'll be back as soon as he's sorted his friend's spooks out." Buffy replied. "In
the meantime, Tara, did you get a chance to look over the papers he sent?"
"Yes, Will and I translated some of it this morning. There was a lot we didn't understand, but
there was something about The Witch of the Wall-"
"The which of the what? That doesn't make sense," Xander interrupted her.
"Not which, Witch - w-i-t-c-h" Willow said. "Only we don't know which
Wall!"
"Uh, can I say, confused much!" Buffy said.
(Next 3 - Teacher's Pet / Never Kill a Boy on the First Date / The Pack. Have fun!)
Date Posted: 11:11:47 12/06/01 Thu
Author: Brian
Subject: Re: Episodes 4-6
In reply to: Marie's message, "Episodes 1-3" on 11:11:47 12/06/01 Thu
Buffy and Xander are having coffee at the only Starbuck's in town.
Xander: How did the PTA meeting go?
Buffy: Well, Dawn is definitely no teacher's pet. Two of her teachers couldn't even remember if she
was in their class.
Xander: Sounds like she's carrying on your fine traditions.
Buffy: (Giving him the look) Well, at least she's doing well in art.
Xander: Well, math, science, you'll just have to talk to her about studying harder.
Bufy: I know, but it can't be right away. I just gave the lecture about never kill a boy on the first
date.
Xander: But, Buffy, he was a vampire!
Buffy: Yeah, ok, but she borrowed my favorite stake to do it.
Xander: Well, at least, she's not running with the pack of motorcycle jerks that have been tearing up
the streets of our fair city.
Buffy: No, that's probably Spike being his typical adolesent self.
Next three: Angel, I robot, you jane, and The puppet show
Date Posted: 11:43:25 12/06/01 Thu
Author: GreatRewards
Subject: Re: Episodes 7-9
In reply to: Brian's message, "Re: Episodes 4-6" on 11:43:25 12/06/01 Thu
Xander: "I'm soooooo bored! Let's go do something, already!"
Buffy: "What'd you have in mind?"
Xander: "I dunno why, but I suddenly have the urge to go fishing.... Hey! Angel food cake.....
mmmmfffppphhh!"
Buffy: "Sounds like fun. But it's gonna be different from the last time, when you made me row
the boat the whole time."
Xander: "Iph rmmph blth, yophth thammphh!"
Buffy: "what? 'I Robot... You Jane?'"
Xander (finally swallowing): "Huh? No! I said I'll row the boat, but you have to change! You
can't fish in that sweater!"
Buffy: "Oh. Ok. Can Dawn come? I have to pick her up after school and it's either fishing or the
puppet show at the Boys & Girls Club, and I think Dawnie's a little old for 'Kukla, Fran &
Ollie'."
Xander: "Sure, it'll be fun. Go change, and I'll meet you both down at the lake!"
(Next three episodes: "Nightmares", "Out of Mind, Out of Sight",
"Prophecy Girl")
Date Posted: 16:52:50 12/06/01 Thu
Author: Marie
Subject: Episodes10-12
In reply to:Marie's message, "OK - 10-12 coming up..." on 16:52:50 12/06/01 Thu
"Omigod!" Dawn squealed in horror and backed away from the wall.
"Wha? Wossermarrer?" The voice came from behind her and she squeaked and covered
her head with her arms.
"Dawn? That you?" Spike sat up and stared at her, bleary-eyed. "What the hell are
yer doin' 'ere at this time of the bleedin' day? Mus' be soddin' early, 'cos I'm still asleep. Or I've
started 'avin nightmares."
Receiving no answer, the vampire stood up, concerned. "Niblet? Come on, now, you can tell me.
Had a fight with Buffy, 'ave yer?"
"No. Goway." The answer was muffled, as she kept her head down. When he crouched
down beside her and reached out a hand to pull her arms away from her head, she moaned and tried
to shuffle back.
"Hey, come on now," Spike said in a sterner tone. "It can't be that bad. 'N Buffy's
gonna be worried about you."
That brought Dawn's head up, and she scowled at him at she said "Huh! You're kidding! She
won't even notice I'm not there for breakfast. Out of sight, out of mind. That was written for
her!" Her eyes widened suddenly and she gasped.
Spike gawped at her. "What? What the hell's the matter with you?"
"My HAIR!" she wailed, "I forgot to brush it and look at it!"
"Bloody hell, Bit, is that all? I knew I should've never got that mirror for you. Bloody women!
Here."
As he passed her the brush, and turned away in exasperation, she poked her tongue out at his back,
and he said "I saw that. What are you doing here so early, anyway!"
"Tara told me about the Prophecy-"
"Girl, there's always a bloody prophecy! Go to school and don't worry about it."
Dawn saw by the set look on his face that she'd get nothing more from him, so she slipped his brush
into her schoolbag, and before he could say any more, came up behind him and gave him a hug.
Perplexed, he turned and watched her leave.
(Next: When She Was Bad / Some Assembly Required / School Hard)
Date Posted: 18:56:24 12/06/01 Thu
Author: Humanitas
Subject: Re: Episodes 13-16
In reply to:Marie's message, "Episodes10-12" on 18:56:24 12/06/01 Thu
Dawn stormed off toward the school. Gah! Even Spike wouldn't pay attention to her, just shuffled
her out of the crypt and off to school. Well, she'd just have to find some way to make them pay
attention, then...
This ought to do it, she thought as she snuck off campus in the middle of the day. Since nobody
noticed when she was trying to be a good little girl and be responsible and stuff, let's see if they'd
catch on when she was bad.
She wandered down an alley downtown. Suddenly, a blur of boy and bike came hurtling past her,
nearly knocking her down. She started to yell, but the sound got lost in the crash of the bike into a
bunch of trashcans. The boy went tumbling over the handlebars, and came to rest against the
wall.
Dawn's irritation quickly shifted to concern, and she dashed to the boy's side. "Are you
OK?"
He shook he head to clear it, and let out a breath like a horse. "Yeah, I'm fine." She
helped him to his feet, and he walked slowly to the pile of rubbish that contained his bike.
"Looks like the bike is some assembly required, though."
He ran a hand through his short dirty-blonde hair, and turned to look at her. His eyes were very
blue. Dawn suddenly felt very uncomfortable. Her palms were starting to sweat. She stammered,
"W-will you be all right? 'Cause I have to be, you know, in school."
"Hard to say." He seemed to be looking all the way into the middle of her. "My
head doesn't hurt much, so probably." He squinted at her. "You're - fuzzy. Why is
that?" He looked around. "Everything else is fine. Why are you fuzzy?"
(Next: Inca Mummy Girl, Reptile Boy, Halloween)
Date Posted: 20:09:32 12/06/01 Thu
Author: Brian
Subject: Re: Episodes 17-19
In reply to:Humanitas's message, "Re: Episodes 13-16" on 20:09:32 12/06/01 Thu
Later, Dawn sat in class trying to pay attention to the discussion about Inca rituals where they
would make a muummy out of a sacrificed young girl. They took her up a mountain, and cut her
heart out, and sacrificed her to some Reptile god. "Boy, did that make her angry. Typical male
thinking.
At that moment, her friend Emily broke her thought pattern by asking , "Hey, are you going to
the Halloween party this weekend?"
Next Eps: 20-22
Date Posted: 00:04:28 12/07/01 Fri
Author: MrDave
Subject: Re: Episodes 20-22
In reply to:Brian's message, "Re: Episodes 17-19" on 00:04:28 12/07/01 Fri
Eps 20-22 "Lie to Me":"The Dark Age":"What's My Line"
Buffy wandered around the schoolyard. It seemed like so long ago when she, too, had been a student.
Back before there was slayage and death...
The sound of footsteps streaming out from the school broke her train of thought. There was Dawn,
and her little friend wahts-her-name. Dawn must have picked up on Buffy's blank stare,
"Buffy, this is Emily. Can I go to the Halloween Party this weekend?"
"You aren't going to lie to me about where you are this time, are you?" Wow. That was a
motherly moment, thought Buffy. Dawn looked as shocked as Buffy.
"This isn't the Dark Ages. I have a life, you know," said Dawn, "Besides, if I
wanted to go, could you stop me? OW!"
"Say goodby to ...uh.." said Buffy as she snatched Dawn by the arm and started walking
toward the lake.
"Emily" mumbled Dawn.
"Whatever. You can't talk to me like that. And especially not in front of your friends,"
The words all tumbled out of Buffy's mouth. All those things her mom had said. All the time, she was
thinking "What's MY line?"
Next Eps: 23-25 "Ted":"Bad Eggs":"Surprise"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Hey, you writers! Take up the challenge! This is Fun! (eps 1 - 22) -- Brian,
03:32:53 12/07/01 Fri
Dawn dragged the young man down the street
"Hey, Buffy, wait up, I want you to meet Ted"
"And who is Ted?" sighed Buffy, already sure she wouldn't like the answer.
"Ted's going to the Halloween party with me," replied Dawn.
Buffy thought, nope, I didn't like the answer.
"Nice to meet you, Ted. Are you in Dawn's class?
Ted Replied, "Yeah, we take Bio I together."
Buffy was sure she wasn't going to like this guy. Bio 1?
Leaning over, she asked Dawn, "Hey, why is this guy so pale. He's not another vamp, is
he?"
"No, Buffy, he's been sick, he ate some bad eggs the other day. "His mother is a big time
chef on some cooking show, She's always using him to try out some big food surprise she's whipped
up."
NEXT: 26-28, Innocene, Phases, Bewitched, bothered & bewildered
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Eps 26-28 (reprinted from below) -- GreatRewards, 09:23:46 12/07/01 Fri
(Eps: "Innocence":"Phases":Bewitched, Bothered, &
Bewildered")
Xander: "'Pixie dust?' That wasn't in the script! What's going on?"
Buffy: "Um, confused now, much. Maybe Ed'll know what to make of this. Let's go see
him."
Xander: "No. You go ahead if you want, but I'm not going to talk to that guy."
Buffy: "Are you STILL sore at him? What the heck did he ever do, anyways?"
Xander: "Oh sure. Take HIS side. Am I the only person who sees through his little 'innocence'
charade? I say he's a demon. Why doesn't anyone believe me?"
Buffy: "I see. Is this another one of those 'paranoia' phases of yours, Xand? Cuz I gotta say: 'not
liking it'!"
Xander: "I'll show you. I'll show all of you. Maybe Willow'll help me cast a spell on him. Yeah!
That's the trick! I'll Bewitch Ed, bother Ed & bewilder Ed to no end! He'll run from Sunnydale
screaming!"
[beat]
Xander: "or maybe not. Wanna go to the Bronze?"
(Next Eps: Old Passion, Killed by Death, I Only Have Eyes for You)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Episodes 28-31 -- Marcie, 11:19:44 12/07/01 Fri
The Bronze was humming tonight. Electric. You could feel the passion in the air. It was hot, smoky,
and something was wrong.
Spike looked around, but couldn't see her anywhere. Where are ya' Slayer? Aloud, all he said was
"I know she's here. I smell 'er."
Giles curled a fastidious lip and looked at the vampire. "Smell her? Good Lord, that's really
quite disgusting."
Spike scowled. "Disgusting, huh? Well I won't be so disgusting when I stop her from being
killed by-"
"Death is not what I fear for her tonight, Spike - she's been dead already. She can face it again
if she has to."
Spike's black leather coat swirled as he spun on his heels and stalked away from the other
man.
Shaking his head, Giles started to follow, only to pull up short at the sight of Xander and Anya
dancing. The music was soft, dreamy, and as he walked over to them, he heard Xander croon to his
lover. "I only have eyes for you," he sang, and Giles winced. Leaning across, he tapped
Xander on the shoulder.
"If you've quite finished exercising your rather excruciating vocal chords, we have to find
Buffy."
"Hey!" said Anya, indignantly. "Why don't you go look for her - we're
busy!"
(Next: Go Fish / Becoming (twice!) / Anne)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Above should read eps 29-31 - sorry! (We need an editor!) --
Marcie, 11:23:16 12/07/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Eps 29-31(reprinted from below) -- Brian, 13:01:40 12/07/01 Fri
Buffy: I think this passion fruit is making my lips numb.
Xander: Just like the real thing I guess. Say, what would you call your relationship to Spike now-a-
days?
Buffy: How'd you like to be killed by death using slow, torturous ways?
Xander: Give me a break, Buffy. Didn't I just see him two nights ago under your window singing,
"I only have eyes for you?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Eps 23-25 (reprinted from below) -- Once More With Feeling, 11:05:48
12/07/01 Fri
Eps: 23-25 "Ted":"Bad Eggs":"Surprise"
Ted tiptoed into the living room and switched the TV set off. Margie had fallen asleep late the night
before watching the latest Buffy episode for the umteenth time -- something about HAVING to get
certain lines JUST RIGHT so she could logically and correctly over-analyze every gory detail with
her gang of cyber-pals.
"I swear, she prefers strangers, dysfunctional kids and vampires to my own fine
company," he grumbled thinking about her cold, unslept-in side of their bed.
He looked at his wife on the sofa. Margie was sprawled at a somewhat unnatural angle, with her
body stretched out in one direction, but her head facing the TV set. Of course, now, her eyes were
closed and she kept mumbling under her breath something that sounded like "No matter how
good it feels."
"Feels good... yea, I'll show you feels good. She even thinks about complaining about a stiff
neck..." he mumbled to himself and then brightened as a plan began to formulate.
"I know! I'll surprise her with a special breakfast and then we can spend the day together. Just
the two of us with NO Buffy and especially NO Spike!"
Whistling softly, Ted went into the kitchen to start his preparations. He pulled all the necessary
fixin's out of the refridgerator, cabinets and shelves. First he chopped onions, tomatoes, and peppers.
Next on his list was cutting leftover ham into perfect little cubes. He lovingly sliced curls of butter
into a small ceramic ramkin and sat a flaky croissant on a plate. Not wanting to wake Margie with
the noise from the juicer, he painstakingly squeezed, by hand, 12 oranges for four precious onces of
fresh juice. He laid out a plate, silverwear and a napkin on a breakfast tray covered with an antique
battenburg lace placemat. The final touch - one perfect red rose from the garden in her favorite
crystal bud vase.
When his preparations were complete, he melted butter in the skillet just the right temperature for
the perfect omelet. One last trip to the fridge yielded the last two eggs from the carton. Holding them
in one hand, Ted deftly cracked the two eggs together with the intention of whisking them until light
and fluffy. Instead, he was greeted with the most disgusting, nauseating, paint-blistering, eye-
watering stench to ever assail his tender nostrils.
Ted picked up the mixing bowl, and holding his nose, proceeding to throw the entire mishmash into
the garbage can sitting just outside the kitchen door.
"Damn, bad eggs."
Ted shook his head sadly and walked slowly into the living room where he turned on the TV just in
time to catch the demon disappearing in a trail of pixie dust.
Next Eps: "Innocence":"Phases":Bewitched, Bothered, &
Bewildered"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Eps 32-34 -- Brian, 13:08:27 12/07/01 Fri
Xander and Dawn were playing cards at the Magic Box. Buffy and Spike were on patrol. Anya was at
the mall shopping for Bridal stuff. Lots of stuff.
Dawn: Got any 7's
Xander: Go fish.
Dawn: Rats, this game is becoming very boring.
Xander: "Becoming boring. Ha, that's because I winning!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Well, we got as far as end Season 2! -- Marie, 15:54:32 12/07/01 Fri
Do you want to carry on? If not, thanks to all who joined in - it was fun!
If you do, the next lot are Season 3, eps 1-3:
Anne / Dead Man's Party / Faith, Hope and Trick
Marie
next up for the book club -- Sheri, 18:11:58 12/06/01 Thu
We're going to do things a little different.
Read ANY play by Chekhov--we want as much stuff as possible to compare with BtVS.
There isn't going to be a set time to meet in the chat room... but during the week before Xmas, if you
see me in the chat room, be prepared for me to interrogate you about Chekhov and Buffy.
And Please post any conclusions you have on to the board, so that the non-chatters can join in.
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[> Chekov? Sherri, you vixen! -- Brian, 20:21:05 12/06/01 Thu
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[> Is there extra credit for reading them in Russian? ;o) -- Cactus Watcher, 06:58:07 12/07/01
Fri
I once attended a professional conference of Slavicists, where a panel on Chekhov was held. One of
the professors propped a card board portait of Chekhov up on the chalk tray of the blackboard. The
presentation of the papers proceeded and eventually it was the turn of the professor who brought the
portrait. He was just in the middle of explaining what Chekhov meant by certain themes he used,
when a sudden puff of breeze from the nearby open doorway caused the cardboard to flip over and
fall face down on the floor. Without missing a beat the professor glanced back, said humbly,
"Forgive us, Anton Pavlovich!" and went on with his talk. Chekhov himself would have
enjoyed the moment.
And no, I won't lurk over your shoulder, Sheri. Have a good discussion!
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[> [> Re: Is there extra credit for reading them in Russian? ;o) -- Sheri, 09:12:36 12/07/01
Fri
I've always been a bit antsy about reading works in translation... how the heck do I know if the
translator got it right?
So really, having someone who is able to read the plays in the original Russian would be a great help
in determining how well they compare to Buffy.
No need to lurk! Just read and discuss :)
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[> [> [> Re: Is there extra credit for reading them in Russian? ;o) -- pagangodess, 09:35:18
12/07/01 Fri
I can read russian. However, Chekov is not an easy read, he's kind of like the Sheakspeare of Russia.
Even if I did, how could you guarantee that MY translation would be any better than the others.
Besides, my interpretation of the piece may cloud my translating abilities.
pagan
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[> [> [> [> just read and enjoy, ok? -- Sheri, 11:40:20 12/07/01 Fri
or read and despise...
either way... read the thing and think Buffy!
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[> [> [> [> You really think Chekhov is hard to read? -- Cactus Watcher, 11:47:54
12/07/01 Fri
When I was learning Russian I always thought the late 19th century 'giants' Tolstoy, Dostoevsky,
Chekhov and Turgenev (except for all his bird hunting terminology) were all fairly easy to read.
Gogol was more difficult, and when I was a student, even experts in the US had to use crib sheets to
get through Solzhenitsyn with all his gulag and underworld lingo.
Translation can be a mine field, but you do the best you can. For example in Chekhov's first play
Ivanov, anti-semiticism isn't so much a theme as a fact. The anti-semiticism is cruder in the Russian
than in the English translations of the late 19th and mid 20th century, that I am familiar with. But,
if you made a literal translation, the English would sound much more vicious than was intended in
the original.
Translation isn't the only problem. I once embarrased myself in a Russian lit class I was auditing,
precisely because I was the only one in class who tried to read the work in Russian. Unknowingly, I
picked up a sanitized version of the work (I think it was Dostevsky) in the library. I said in class that
a particular male character kissed another male character on the forehead. In the uncensored
version, he kissed the man on the lips.
Now, if I just wasn't so dyslexic when proof reading English! Gad!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: You really think Chekhov is hard to read? -- pagangodess, 18:41:07
12/07/01 Fri
Give me a break, guys. I was totaly fluent in Russian long ago when I was 15. We had to read these
'giants' works in class, and when you're 15, 'Anna Karenina' is no easy task (esp. when russian is a
second language). I suppose I should get back into it (should have done it long ago: shame on me),
but it's been a long time since I used any russian.
I think I'll go lurk now. I'm not smart enough for this board.
:) pagan
P.S. Your Dostojevski story was funny, CW. lol
How fast does Buffy heal? -- bookworm, 19:09:20 12/06/01 Thu
For that matter, how much of a beating does it take to really hurt Buffy? Slayers must have super
fast healing as well as superhuman strength. In "Wrecked," Buffy comes limping home
bruised, scratched and so sore she winces when she sits down. Then that night she is beating up
Willow's demon and doesn't seem to have any problem sitting or moving easily. In the graduation
episode, Angel drains her of blood and that afternoon she's up and killing vampires. Does she heal
within minutes? Hours?
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[> Re: How fast does Buffy heal? -- Eric, 20:01:34 12/06/01 Thu
Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a 20th level undead hunter, regenerates at rate of 1 Hit Point per round
unless reduced to -10 Hit Points at which time she dies. Seriously, though, for non AD&D
players, putting Slayer on your health insurance form guarantees low premiums. Slayers do
regenerate. A Slayer can absorb mild blunt trauma and it will heal in a matter of minutes. In
"Ted", Buffy gets slapped around by the John Ritter robot. When she "kills"
it, the investigating detectives doubt her story because she has no marks. In "Anne",
Buffy was struck by a car going about 20 MPH on impact. The scene was probably filmed with her
stunt double's safety in mind. But I'd bet the double still woke up sore the next day with a craving
for Motrin. Buffy, however, got up and ran away. Basically a Slayer can shake off a severe beating in
about 12 hours. This is a vital survival characteristic since your garden variety vamp is supposed to
have the strength of a PCP junkie.
More severe trauma is a different story. The Slayer Faith was stabbed in the stomach and fell off a
tall building on to a barrel. She suffered severe brain damage, kidney trauma, and went into a coma.
The fall itself should have snapped her spine. Upon arrival at the hospital the doctor determined
everything would heal, but she would not wake up due to brain damage. Faith woke up a year later
with no lasting effects.
When Buffy was drowned by the Master, Angel and Zander revived her with CPR. But there is no
telling how long she was face down in the pool. A normal person's brain dies after two or more
minutes without oxygen depending on the temperature. It seems unlikely Angel and Zander found
her "in a nick of time". Basically, it seems as long as the Slayer's vital organs remain
intact her system WILL heal.
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[> [> Re: How fast does Buffy heal? -- zilla, 05:35:57 12/07/01 Fri
Spike must have worked her hard for her to have such a hard time sitting.
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[> Re: How fast does Buffy heal? -- B, 05:41:02 12/07/01 Fri
Also, in "Surprise," when they get back to his place, Buffy winces from a wound; Angel
looks at it and says "It's already closed."
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[> Re: How fast does Buffy heal? -- Fitz, 10:52:10 12/07/01 Fri
Actually, Buffy doesn't beat up Willow's demon the same day she gets bace from her night with
Spike. Than night, Willow goes to see Rack for the first time, and it isn't until the next night that
Willow drags Dwan along with her, so Buffy has had at leats a day and a half to recover.
OT - 6th Poem for Christmas -- Brian, 20:39:16 12/06/01 Thu
WINDOW
In the window of my soul
I placed a candle for passersby
To guide their winter journey’s night.
And I watched my candle flicker and burn,
Small beams against the darkness of the storm.
And one there was who when passing by
Saw my candle burning so bright,
And when I looked,
His candle met my eye.
But now he passes hurriedly by
Looking neither left nor right,
But I can see
His candle is going out.
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[> Re: OT - 6th Poem for Christmas -- Kimberly, 05:56:16 12/07/01 Fri
That last line will haunt me for the rest of the day. Lovely.
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[> Hmmm... I really like this one - thank you for sharing! -- RH, 06:37:35 12/07/01 Fri
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[> Reminds me of Pasternak's poem Winter Night from Dr. Zhivago. ;o) -- Cactus Watcher,
07:26:42 12/07/01 Fri
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[> ooh -- pocky, 15:45:08 12/07/01 Fri
seriously ignoring the STRONG urges to get into constructive criticism mode (i'm a creative writing
student who can't get enough and can't dish out enough criticism ^_^'), i really liked this piece!
what struck me as interesting, though, is the whole candle-guiding-passersby theme. it's very
reminiscent of Samhain lore.
~nathan~
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