August 2004 posts


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worldcon in boston over labor day weekend! -- anom, 22:42:02 08/22/04 Sun

2 weeks from now, Noreascon 4 will be in full swing--sheesh, it'll be nearly over! I meant to do this sooner! Anyway, I'm gonna be there (at this hour, probably in the filk room). Are you? Is anyone else on this board going to Worldcon? Even if you're not, do you live in or near Boston (or are you just gonna be visiting over the holiday), & would you like to get together? Let me know, & let's plan a Boston board meet!


Replies:

[> hey, my worldcon post's back! now i can preserve it! -- anom, 22:08:29 08/24/04 Tue

Now if only someone will respond.... Boston, anyone?



Season 8 -- skeeve, 08:10:42 08/23/04 Mon

With Buffy.
Without recasting.
Without SMG.

Difficult, but not impossible.
Buffy would just spend a lot of time off-screen,
rather like the Immortal.
Season eight would show Buffy's effects,
often her direct efects.
A vampire flying out of an alley would be a trivial example,
not to mention a much less frequent example now that there are so many slayers.
The hard part might be reminding the writers that the show is about Buffy.
To that end, here is a gimmick that might help keep them on track:
Each episode would feature a telephone conversation with Buffy and a person whom we get to hear.
The conversation could be humorous (bring in Bob Newhart as a script consultant) or not (now what's happening in LA?).
Perhaps if the viewers are very good, the season finale might feature audio of Buffy leaving a voice-mail message.


Replies:

[> Re: Season 8 -- Ames, 08:42:17 08/23/04 Mon

No, that would be a gimmick that would get old fast. In fact it was already getting old before TGIQ was over.

I loved SMG as Buffy. I thought she was a big part of the success of the TV show. She gave us a unique and wonderful interpretation of the character that would be very difficult to equal. But....

I don't think that means that nobody should ever try. Consider Dr. Who, played by many different actors on a continuing series over decades. Each actor gave a different interpretation of a lead character who happened to change appearance and personality once in a while. Fans have their preferences, but all the actors form part of the character's legacy. The mythology of BtVS allows characters to change appearance and personality, and we already have an example of ED playing Buffy in a different body very successfully (TYG/WAY). Of course trying to duplicate another actor's interpretation of the character would be an interesting challenge only for a short period, but I'm sure the story could be written so that change occurred naturally to allow a new actor to put their own spin on it.

Given a fair chance, I think that viewers would even accept someone else playing Buffy if they were to go back and do some of the in-between stories that most of the novels have been written about (like the high school years). In fact all of the non-immortal characters would need new actors to play them at their younger age. I think acceptance would depend only on the quality of the writing, although probably the animation series has a better shot at this angle (I hope it gets picked up!).

I think the best choice would simply be to extend the story to follow other characters. SMG was only one reason for the show's popularity - JW and the writing team were the main reason, and all the actors contributed. Obviously we already have a fine example of this with AtS.

Or they could just change time periods. Go into the past and do a "Slayer-of-the-week" thing. Or go into the future and do Fray. Or Fray meets Firefly!


[> [> Re: Season 8 -- skpe, 07:16:59 08/25/04 Wed

I think you hit the real reason no season 8
"JW and the writing team were the main reason, and all the actors contributed"
JW was tired of the show and wanted to do somthing new. without him no cast changes would have made any differance


[> [> Re: Season 8 -- skeeve, 07:18:11 08/26/04 Thu

No, that would be a gimmick that would get old fast. In fact it was already getting old before TGIQ was over.

As a gimmick, it would get old fast. Most do.
A necessity derived from the lack of the actress that played the lead character would be another matter.

We might even hear Buffy on occasion.
Some lines will work in more than one context.

The telephone thing, if done well, would not get old fast.

I've heard rumors that phone service is not as good in Europe as it is in the US.
That combined with Slayer strength could provide some amusing conversation on the fate of some unlucky telephones.
Not too much though.
We don't want to give Buffy too much of a temper.

If, as suggested by another poster, Joss and the writers are tired of Buffy, they should rest up a bit first.

I have no objections to spinoffs,
but I was refering specifically to *Buffy*, the Vampire Slayer.



ZThe real difference between a freshman girl & a toilet seat-- -- SingedCat, 10:07:16 08/23/04 Mon


--The toilet seat only has to deal with one asshole at a time.

(*Just watched the Parker episodes again, and had to share.* :))


Replies:

[> Aggghh! Parker! -- dub ;o), 16:20:34 08/23/04 Mon

We will speak of him no more. *ptui*


[> [> dub, I never knew you were Italian....:):):):):):):):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 22:53:19 08/23/04 Mon



[> singedcat! where ya been all this time? -- anom, 09:38:13 08/25/04 Wed

Great zinger--I'd like to think someone threw that back at Parker sometime! And you should share more often (hint, hint).

How's the RenFair/MedFest circuit treating you? (I'm remembering right, aren't I?)



CJL on national television tomorrow night! (and other minor embarrassments) -- cjl (reluctant TV star), 10:37:49 08/23/04 Mon

Well, folks, it has finally come to pass.

Crank Yankers' telephone assault on the offices of Scientific American, featuring the befuddled voice of yours truly, will be on Comedy Central tomorrow night (10:30 p.m. EST, 9:30 p.m. Central, repeat two hours later). I guess I'm asking everybody on the board to tune in, even if part of me wants you all to be doing something important--oh, like cleaning your toilets--while the show is on.

Oddly enough, I will not be able to see my TV debut "live," because (1) I don't have cable and (2) I'm going to be in Central Park for a Todd Rundgren/Joe Jackson concert. But I have a number of friends and relatives on VCR alert, so I'll have plenty of opportunity to catch up later. If I'm in the mood. (Sigh.)

In this very special episode, the very special Special Ed (he of kind heart but limited mental capacity) has constructed a volcano for his school project and wants his accomplishment to be published in Scientific American magazine. ("I built a volcano! Yayyyyy!") He calls the SciAm offices and speaks to a patient, if puzzled (and unnamed) editorial staff member who tries to explain to Ed about the facts of life in the magazine business. Ed, however, doesn't understand why the mean man is harshing his buzz and becomes very upset. Ed's cousin, also very upset, calls back the puzzled editorial staff member and accuses him of being an elitist brainiac, a geek--everything short of going to Star Trek conventions wearing Vulcan ears. I hear it's all very amusing.

If you read Shadowkat's description of the making of this ep a couple of months back, you'll know that I've been properly puppet-ized for this presentation. So it'll be just like Smile Time. Except puppet!CJL doesn't get to kick any evil puppet ass, doesn't beat up Spike, and doesn't get to make out with a hot werewolf chick--which kind of cuts down on the fun part of puppetization.

So get your videotape machines and DVD burners ready, because this is probably going to be standard viewing for all future ATPo get-togethers, whether I want it to be or not.

In other news, I'm calling off my September 12th birthday party. Turns out I've got tickets for the Mets that day--my traditional "birthday" game with my ex and her son. (I thought it was on the 16th. Sorry about that.) So cancel your travel plans and don't bother buying the condiments, because there will be no picnic in Prospect Park. (Of course, you could all still get together, but it would kind of weird if you celebrated my birthday and I didn't show up.)

That's all for now. Tune in next year when CJL is transported to a lush tropical isle for the third season of Joe Schmo.


Replies:

[> Attention! This extravaganza may be viewed on line NOW! -- dub ;o), 13:36:24 08/23/04 Mon

I just watched and listened to it! It's already up on the Crank Yanker's web site!!

http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/crankyankers/

Awwww, CJL, your puppet is SO cute, and you are SOOOOO polite. It's great!!

dub *grinning from ear to ear, and removing the ! key from her keyboard now*


[> [> Spoilers - cjl's fame -- Ann, 13:52:02 08/23/04 Mon

I had to download Windows 9 but this was worth waiting for.

You were very patient CJL.

I want a t-shirt that says "What about it?"

This is a highly complex yet relatively nerdy response I know, but I thought you might want to know!!


[> [> [> Additional Spoilers -- dub ;o), 13:59:55 08/23/04 Mon

Did you check out the framed SA "covers" in cjl's office? They're hilarious.

;o)


[> [> [> Just saw the clip on the Crank Yankers website. The T-shirt I want... -- cjl, 14:16:34 08/23/04 Mon

....would have Puppet!CJL on the phone with the framed SciAm cover "Giant Dinosaur Schlong Discovered in Chile" over my head.


[> [> [> [> Lolol! -- Arethusa, 15:19:03 08/23/04 Mon

Can you tell me how to order the article on making a boyfriend out of common household chemicals, cjl? Please?


[> [> Black-mail photo within! -- Masq, 14:01:31 08/23/04 Mon




Just 'cause we luv you, CJL!


[> [> [> Um, Masq? -- dub ;o), 14:07:54 08/23/04 Mon

Now, you do know that isn't really the cjl puppet, don't you?

lolol ;o)


[> [> [> That's Special Ed, Masq. -- cjl, 14:12:56 08/23/04 Mon

My puppet is much cuter. (It's nose is too big, though.)


[> [> [> [> I know, I'm working on it. -- Masq, 16:28:38 08/23/04 Mon



[> [> I got the correct photos ;) -- Tyreseus, 16:43:29 08/23/04 Mon

I think this is the correct puppet.





[> [> [> Very Cool!!!!! LOL -- Ann, 16:46:07 08/23/04 Mon

Iconage alert!


[> [> [> [> Hey CJL, I think they gave you a promotion. ; ) -- Masq, 16:48:37 08/23/04 Mon



[> [> [> [> Potential Icons -- cjl, 17:21:12 08/23/04 Mon

Icon #1

- Shot of Puppet!Angel (text: "Puppet!Angel")
- Shot of Puppet!cjl (text: "Puppet!cjl")
- Split screen shot of puppet!Angel and puppet!cjl (text: "Brothers under the felt")


Icon #2

- Shot of Puppet!cjl (text: "What about it?")


Icon #3

- Shot of Puppet!cjl (text: "A new breed of hero")
- Shot of Special Ed (text: "His arch nemesis")
- Split screen shot of Puppet!cjl and Special Ed (text: "and one must die!")


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Potential Icons -- Ann, 17:22:36 08/23/04 Mon

Thank you. Give me time and these will be your birthday gift! Since the party is cancelled and all.


[> [> [> Re: I got the correct photos ;) -- s'kat, 16:49:11 08/23/04 Mon

The hands of that puppet are operated by the same puppeteer who did the hands of Puppet Angel.

(I got this from the puppeteer who operates Special Ed.)


[> [> [> [> Re: I got the correct photos ;) -- Rob, 16:58:17 08/23/04 Mon

I am trying very hard right now to not make a dirty joke about how that puppeteer was inside both Angel *and* cjl. ;-)

Rob


[> [> [> [> Puppet!cjl had the same puppeteer as Puppet!Angel? Wow. -- cjl, 17:07:33 08/23/04 Mon

I'm honored. (I think.)

If you've seen the clip, the puppet work is excellent. The movements are perfectly coordinated with my voice--and the puppet is far more expressive than I was during the conversation. (I was sitting shock still at my desk, my shoulders scrunched up with rage--so that's a GOOD thing...)

Great photos, Tyreseus!

(Dammit, I want a copy of that puppet!)


[> [> [> [> [> Puppet Angel touched, Darla, Buffy, Electric girl, The Furies, Dru, possibly Spike..........;) -- Rufus, 17:55:10 08/23/04 Mon

The hands are Angel therefore you have touched all those people by puppet proxy.


[> [> [> [> [> Truly awesome! -- Pony, 06:46:44 08/24/04 Tue



[> [> [> [> [> Well...one of the same puppeteers.. (More info on Puppet Angel) -- s'kat, 16:22:15 08/24/04 Tue

Apparently it took four puppeteers to manipulate Puppet!Angel. That scene where Lorne finds Puppet!Angel torn and struggling? There were four people holding and manuevering that puppet. They erased them on screen. I think the only
time he had one puppeteer was in the battle with Spike, when they wired him to James Marsters and Marsters manipulated the movements. But I could be wrong on that.

Another tid-bit, DBoreanze helped create Puppet!Angel - he worked closely with the puppeteer who built the puppet.


[> Re: CJL on national television tomorrow night! (and other minor embarrassments) -- Jay, 19:53:45 08/23/04 Mon

Jim Florentine is hilarious. I've heard some clips from his CD "Terrorizing Telemarketers", and he is a pisser. I especially like the one where is "bathing his grandfather" while talking business with some telemarketer and his grandfather "has a heart attack". But he won't let the telemarketer off the phone because he want to hear about this great deal. The increasingly lame escuses he gives to keep her on the line, and then she starts scolding him... yaaahhh!

Will you publish my findings?


[> Interesting (TV Star) -- frisby, 04:20:48 08/25/04 Wed

I saw the piece last night; first time I watched that show although my wife has before and likes it; sort of an audio candid camera. I wonder if they require your permission before showing it, whether you met anyone face to face, and whether the puppets are meant to caricature the victims or not.

Scientific American huh? Wow! Admirable. I just sent for a free issue with the option to subscribe; although of course I know the mag well from my library days. I bet there are intereting discussions around the water cooler there!

By the way, now that dark matter and dark energy have received their proper attention, think maybe dark space and dark time are next?


[> [> Yes, permission is definitely required. -- cjl, 07:27:33 08/25/04 Wed

They needed permission to use my voice, my name, and to use the corporate name of Scientific American. As you could see and hear, I did not let them use my name, but our editor-in-chief and corporate president agreed that they could use the SciAm name.

And boy howdy, did they use it.

"Dark space and dark time"? Hmmmm..........


[> [> [> dark space & time -- frisby, 12:21:52 08/25/04 Wed

maybe the 6-7 "curled-up" dimensions are dark, and maybe that small unit of time "before the big bang" (square root of Gh/c5 or the Planck time) is dark --

they're both for sure dark and mysterious to me --

but I do find 'darkness' fascinating, such as the necessity of a dark particle at the source of each and every snowflake crystal --

nuf said (again though, I bet its sure very interesting to work at _Scientific American_ -- although I wonder if Nietzsche's "joyful science" gets any hearing???


[> [> [> [> seems to me *most* of space is dark... -- anom, 11:48:22 08/26/04 Thu

...as long as you're not particularly close to a star. As for time, well, most of us have probably gone through at least one dark time in our lives....


[> [> [> [> [> ha ha -- and dark matter is what absorbs light and -- frisby, 11:30:49 08/27/04 Fri

dark energy is what nullifies motion ...

really though, it may be that the 'dark' matter & energy & space & time is necessary to explain by far most of what is

kind of how dionysos (the god of darkness) is a supergod compared to apollo (the god of light)


[> [> [> [> [> [> well, that just raises a question that's already on a button: -- anom, 17:59:13 08/31/04 Tue

"Oh, sure....but what's the speed of dark?"

I'm gonna buy that one at Worldcon! (Hey, maybe if I offered to take button orders, then I'd get some responses!)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> speed of darkness? -- frisby, 19:06:48 08/31/04 Tue

The theory discussed these days is that dark energy is responsible for the speed of the expansion of the universe accelerating. That is, the expansion is speeding up due to dark energy.

Since speed is distance understood in terms of time, and since distance is an aspect of time, then perhaps the speed of darkness is dark space understood in terms of dark time? (or dark space over dark time) (or dark space divided by dark time)

But then again, I will confess that I don't really understand all this stuff about dark energy, or dark matter. I know what is said, but ....

Then again, what the heck 'is' electricity ...

By the way, this republican convention on c-span doesn't seem much like the republicans i've known the past 50 years, especially the music ... what's going on ...

Also by the way, Manwitch has me now reading up on those seven chakras -- why 'do' they fit the seven seasons so well??

New York huh?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> oddly enough, i saw a book by that title at worldcon! -- anom, 22:42:13 09/09/04 Thu

One of my roommates had it in our hotel room. Here's a link to a review, if you're interested. Absolutely nothing to do w/the topic of this thread, or even the subthread, but the description of the plot reminds me strongly of a (the?) major theme of Joss' Astonishing X-Men. Funny how these connections turn up in ways you don't expect.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> things like that 'are indeed' odd -- frisby, 04:14:30 09/10/04 Fri

Sounds like an interesting novel -- I did so like _Flowers for Algeron_

but again on this 'odd' theme, I do wish I could better understand how it could be that 73% of the universe is composed of dark energy, and 23% of dark matter, with the remaining 4% accounting for all the regular matter and energy that we previously thought was 100%

also, how that dark energy is responsible for the expansion rate of the universe now accelerating (having earlier, already slowed down), so that today we have a universe (according to contemporary scientific theories, as goes without saying) that is expanding faster and faster, or like a monstous appetite screaming more more more

i also wonder how it is that so much of this reminds me of Niezsche's doctrine of the world as will to power (but that's another thread)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> you think *that's* odd? -- anom, 10:48:58 09/10/04 Fri

Check out the News Scan item "Scaled-Up Darkness" in this month's Scientific American for an interesting idea on the size of dark matter particles.

The more we learn about the universe, the weirder it seems to be. I like that--makes me feel more at home in it. @>)

And w/the reference to SciAm, this subthread is now officially back on topic!


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You mean the Sep issue? -- frisby, 13:23:30 09/11/04 Sat

I recently subscribed to "Scientific American" for two years but haven't gotten my first issue yet. Are you referring to Sep? I assume those dark matter particles are very very huge? Speaking of science, guess who it was who first realized the sun is a star? Took me quite a bit of research to find out. I think it's perhaps the most amazing thing -- right over our noses and no one thought it, till -- and he doesn't get much write-up, nothing like Copernicus (who didn't know it) or Galileo (who also didn't) or even Newton (who didn't either). And today, who has really thought out the possible implications of the galatic year?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> that's the one -- anom, 19:45:57 09/11/04 Sat

It starts on p. 26. I'll let you find out for yourself if you guessed right.

"Speaking of science, guess who it was who first realized the sun is a star?"

Errrrr...gee, fris, I dunno, & I'd hate to duplicate your time-consuming research (heh)--why don'tcha just tell us? I s'pose someone would have had to realize what the stars were 1st...when did that happen?

"And today, who has really thought out the possible implications of the galatic year?"

Not me! What are your thoughts on it?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not 100% sure yet.... -- frisby, 11:51:49 09/12/04 Sun

My interest in this matter goes to Zarathustra's first words "Thou great star!" which he addresses to the sun, showing he is a modern man (or human).

But more importantly, of all the people to ever gaze into the sky during the day or night, of "all" of them "ever" how many or what percent realized the sun "is" a star?

The answer is very very very few (not even Newton or Galileo). As for who was first, I think it's Herschel in combination with his younger sister but I'm not 100% yet. I really wonder if perhaps some ancient thinker at least pondered the possibility?????

As for the galactic year (250 million earth years), what if there are something comparable to seasons???

This stuff is important! But of course, for most people, it doesn't really mean squat to know the sun will die in a few billion years, burning the earth to a crisp in so doing. Practically, the only concern is whether its light and warm or not. But for us 'theoretical' types it matters a great great great deal to know the sun is only a star, not radically different than any of the other billion billion stars in the heavens.

As for the discovery of the galaxy, and our place in it, and the other galaxies, etc., well that's just plain mind-blowing, and hardly anyone alive today even dares to really think about it.

Like Nietzsche said (who "did" know the sun was a star), imagine some observer standing on a star far away watching the earth in some way. They see a little light flash on and then go off and they say, hmmm, well, that was humanity. We are but a blip, the planet is but a speck of dust (unless like Kant you think the moral law within raises our dignity far above anything in the heavens, or even above the heavens themselves)...

How can humanity continue realizing their entire existence is but an instant and the planet itself but a speck of dust???????

how? how? how? how?

what is the cure for what Nietzsche called nihilism?

(thanks for asking by the way anom -- i didn't say anon)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> how'd you like to repost this as a new thread, fris? -- anom, 10:17:30 09/13/04 Mon

Questions of this magnitude deserve their own thread (& it'd give me more time to think of how to respond!). Besides, I think it's time we gave cjl a break & let this thread finally drop out of sight, don't you?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ok -- will do -- David Frisby, 16:25:13 09/13/04 Mon

I'll post it as "is the sun really a star?"


[> Special Ed's sound effects -- Vegeta, 07:22:52 08/25/04 Wed

CJL,

When Special Ed was crying and hitting himself at the end of your conversation could you hear the hitting sound effect? I was just suprised that Ed went that far...

Vegeta


[> [> Nope, never heard that. Must've added it in during post-production. -- cjl, 08:25:20 08/25/04 Wed

I feel like one of those "Star Wars" actors who talk about standing in front of the blue screen all day and don't see what the hell Lucas is doing until the finished movie.

Heh.


[> Re: CJL on national television tomorrow night! (and other minor embarrassments) -- LeeAnn, 07:44:11 08/25/04 Wed

I never watch Crank Yankers but happened to catch that one and I was really impressed with your not caving or wimping out to the caller, for maintaining Scientific American's dignity. Even though the last time I read Scientific American I thought almost every article was written to justify Bush Junta policy and decided never to read it again.

And I'm still pissed about the wimping out on Kerala thing.


[> [> Re: CJL on national television tomorrow night! (and other minor embarrassments) -- cjl, 08:23:03 08/25/04 Wed

Thank you. God knows I tried.

"Justify the Bush Junta policy"? Geez, we get volumes and volumes of letters (and the occasional subscription cancellation) calling us a rabid, left-wing commie Bush-bashing rag.

Can. Not. Win.


[> [> [> anyone who thinks... -- anom, 22:21:54 08/25/04 Wed

...Scientific American supports Bush policy should see the exchange in the letters column of this month's issue between The Editors & a rep of the White House science policy office. No bashing, they just point out--wait, what am I saying? Go buy a copy & see for yourself! It's on the 2nd Letters page.


[> I liked it! -- VampRiley, 17:50:24 08/25/04 Wed

Poor special Ed.

And the Superman one rocked. I was dying from laughter.



Londoner's alert-DB, JM, Jl, and JE, Halloween plans for you -- Ann, 04:45:16 08/24/04 Tue

From jamesmarsterslive.com

Get ready for the Halloween of a lifetime and make a date with TV's sexiest vampires.

David Boreanaz and James Marsters, who play Angel and Spike, will be appearing on stage together for the first time in a world exclusive two day special. A packed Halloween weekend of spine-chilling fun and thrills in the company of 'Angel' and 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' stars is in store for those brave enough to accept the spooky invitation.

The vampires with souls are coming out to play and are planning to party in London on the scariest weekend of the year.

Joining in the spooky fun will be special guests from America including actress Juliet Landau, who played British vampire Drusilla in 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' and 'Angel', and US film and TV star Luke Perry, who starred in the original 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' movie as Buffy's first love, and 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' scriptwriter and co-executive producer Jane Espenson.

Tickets for the Halloween special are numbered and allow entry into all the weekend's activities. The event promises to be bigger than the Hellmouth.

Further special guest stars will be announced shortly.

and

"We are all hands on with this event. We want to do it our way."
- David Boreanaz

"The Halloween event will offer honesty, hilarity and poignancy. It all depends on how brave people are with their questions.
It takes two to tango. Both David and I will say just about anything."
- James Marsters

Wow for those that can make it.


Replies:

[> Re: Londoner's alert-DB, JM, Jl, and JE, Halloween plans for you -- Tyreseus, 11:35:29 08/24/04 Tue

Am I the only one who twitches involuntarily every time someone reminds me that Luke Perry is connected to the Buffyverse?


[> Re: Londoner's alert-DB, JM, Jl, and JE, Halloween plans for you -- Susan, 12:55:02 08/27/04 Fri

Oh my gosh,
I wish I could go to London!
P.S. I need to see if I can find the Movie at a store somewhere, its been so long ago that I seen it that I don't remember and I am curious as to how it might even compare to the TV series.
I can only remember one scene from the movie and that is when the knife was thrown at "Buffy the cheerleader" and she caught it and said someting like, You threw a knife at me and the thrower (her watcher?)said "And you caught it".
Sorry about rambling (grin)

Susan

Susan's Pages

http://wtv-zone.com/herstorythree/entrancetwo.html


[> [> Stephanie Romanov -- mac, 12:20:49 08/28/04 Sat

I heard a rumor that Stephanie Romanov aka Lilah Morgan, will be in London, regarding a publicity event for a new store, in October.


[> Amy Acker has been added! -- deeva, 20:06:07 08/27/04 Fri




could someone elaborate on this quote for me? -- ghady, 07:22:45 08/25/04 Wed

"it s soo heart warming that people are acknowledging CC s talents, unlike some Joss Whedon types..." (here's the link http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=6160)


Replies:

[> Re: could someone elaborate on this quote for me? -- Vickie, 07:43:42 08/25/04 Wed

It looks as though the person posting thinks that Charisma Carpenter left AtS because the Mutant Enemy folks didn't appreciate her talents.

There were rumors at the time, and some folks claimed to know that:

1. CC left over money.
2. CC left because she was bored.
3. CC left because she wanted to have more family time.
4. CC was fired because ME was tired of her/the character.
5. CC was fired because of temperament.

I prefer to acknowledge that I have no data except the PR announcements at the time; to wit: ME felt that Cordelia's story had been told.



Observations on "Previously on..." -- Ames, 08:56:21 08/25/04 Wed

Stringing together the complete "Previously on..." sequence for Buffy and Angel, I notice a couple of editing difficulties:

I'm sure everyone is aware that much of the "Previously on..." segment is repeated at the start of sequential episodes, often with only a few scenes changed. If you watched more closely, you are probably aware that occasionally some of the clips were presented out of order for the purposes of a particular episode. In theory it would be possible, with a lot of work, to re-edit the sequential segments in such a way as to eliminate redundancy and any ordering problems when joining them. But that doesn't work well because of the audio.

The audio tracks of the "Previously on..." segments were all custom mixed. They each have their own dramatic background music which continues throughout the segment. Sometimes they have a customized voice-over, where audio clips from one scene are placed over a video clip from another scene in order to provide a shorter and pithier video bite. Also they sometimes use the mixing technique of allowing the audio from one scene to continue into the next, or having the audio of the next scene start before the video switches. There's no easy way to change this.

The music is the main problem. Any attempt to edit for better sequential continuity would result in jarring changes in background music. So it appears that the only reasonable choice is to just let the segments repeat with a lot of redundancy.


Replies:

[> Another possibility -- OnM, 05:47:19 08/26/04 Thu

Strip off the audio entirely, do the sequence visually the way you feel it's most effective, and then add back in/create new audio to match the visual sequence.


[> [> Re: Another possibility -- Ames, 07:24:03 08/26/04 Thu

WAY too much work. There's 254 episodes! (ok, ep 1 doesn't have a "Previously on...", although it probably should have).

BTW, there's only one episode of Buffy on the region 1 DVD sets that does have the "Previously on..." segment. Can anyone name it? (and no, it's not part 2 of anything, and I don't mean the Easter Egg on the yet-to-be-released S7 set)


[> [> [> Re: Another possibility -- Tymen, 07:51:51 08/26/04 Thu

When She Was Bad from Season Two.



Astonishing X-Men #4 (major spoilers) -- Kenny, 19:15:11 08/25/04 Wed

OK, new issue is out. People on one message board were complaining about bringing back Colossus (told you there were major spoilers). They talked about the beauty of the original story (didn't read it, know it in broad strokes, and Scott Lobdell wrote it...while it might have been sentimental, there was probably very little beauty or skill in the actual execution of the story--after suffering through years of his X-Men, I finally got the point that I refused to read any of his work). I felt the need to respond, as I don't think this is going to be a typical comic book resurrection. I decided to post here as well to start conversation on the new issue. While it starts out as a rebut to general complaints of other posters, I think large parts of it stand on their own, and I don't feel like writing a new post. Of course, there are also small references to "Buffy" and "Angel". Here we go...

I don't mind Colossus being back one bit. Not because I'm really attached to the character (although I will admit, that last scence had more emotional impact than I would have expected), but because I think there's some great potential for drama in this particular situation. Until this point Kitty's the only member of the team not to be having a crisis at some point. She doesn't like Emma, but that's about it. At this point in her life, finding out that Peter is alive is really the only thing that can throw her off. She's learned to accept the death of loved ones, and she's really good at moving on.

It also puts an entirely different spin on Benetech. As someone else mentioned earlier, I suspect that Hope is somehow related to the cure for the Legacy Virus, explaining Colossus's involvement. If that's the case, they realize that Peter sacrificed himself to cure the virus. While they've been portrayed as unethical and illegal at this point, they haven't been shown to be doing anything outright nasty to people (assuming they are unaware and/or disapproving of Ord's actions). Even the dead girl could be a body they acquired after her death. To bring back and torture(?) someone who gave their own life to save the lives of others? That's evil. Add to that fact that it's really just a kinder/gentler version of the genetic cleansing that the Legacy Virus was accomplishing. It's like a Christ story gone horribly wrong, which is very much the type of story JW enjoys telling.

I'd be curious to find out how many of the people who don't like this turn of events are familiar with JW's television work, as he's demonstrated there that he doesn't take the idea of death lightly. When he's brought dead (or mostly dead) characters back in the past, it's always been in service to the story, and it's sometimes only temporary. Darla, Buffy, and Angel are all examples of this. While I understand that some people prefer death to be treated in a more real world style in fiction, death and resurrection is a recurring motif for as long as literature has existed. It's especially prevelant in pretty much any ancient mythology, and as many people have pointed out in the past, super hero comics (at least from a literary POV) are very much our contemporary mythology. Masters of the form, such as Moore and Gaiman, have used that to great effect. They are aware of the power of symbolism. Too many mainstream comic book writers only realize the gimmick of symbolism and treat it with the skill of a third grader. While Whedon is still maturing as a storyteller, he does seem to understand the actual power of symbols, and I think that's going to become more evident as his run progresses.

Anywho, other cool things about this issue. Emma. Yeah, she can be grating, and she even started to get on my nerves (in a good way) this time out. But she cares more about the children at the school than any other member of the X-Men. It's scary how maternal she actually is. I think that aspect brings some real legitimacy to her resentment of Jean. It's not just that she's jealous (which she is), but everyone really does want to make Jean untouchable. She's been deified both inside and outside of the comic book. The X-Men see her as having no bad qualities. But as far as the students are concerned, she's only been shown to care about them in an abstract way. Emma, however, is in the trenches. She gets to know the kids. Every time she's been headmistress of a school she's taken a huge interest in the students' lives, for good or ill. Jean never took that role on. Yet Emma remains unappreciated by most. I don't think that it's coincidence in "Astonishing" that Kitty has been shown to be the other X-Man to actively particpate in the lives of the students. She and Emma make great foils for each other because they both have such strong maternal qualities.

Ord. He is really growing on me (in an I-can't-wait-for-him-to-get-his-butt-kicked kinda way). Print medium can't make me jump. It can make me get the willies (like some classic Vertigo), but it can't make me jump. Ord's appearance to Hisako and Wing is probably about as close as print medium has ever gotten my heart to skipping a beat. Very nicely done. And then the next time you see him it's for a bit of comedy. And then he goes right back to being scary. Classic Whedon.

The splash page with Colossus. Whether you like his reappearance or not, that's a beautiful page. This post is largely writer-centric, but--wow--Joss may have written the page, but Cassaday sells it.

Can't wait for issue 5.


Replies:

[> Re: AXM#4 (major spoilers throughout) -- Seven, 20:30:07 08/25/04 Wed

I'm with you, Kenny. Joss has been doing a wonderful job and he is just getting better. I'm still on the fence about Colosus though. I'm not a big Colosus fan myself and see no reason for a return, unless to, as you say, throw Kitty off guard. I have always found Mr. Rasputin to be way to complainy. The only time I thought he was at all interesting was in the Age of Apocolpse where he was much grittier and hard-edged. However, that last scene gives me hope. I believe in Joss, so let's see where he takes it.


[> Re: Astonishing X-Men #4 (major spoilers) -- Pony, 06:58:22 08/26/04 Thu

I had no knowledge of Colossus' backstory or supposed death but I still found that appearance moving. Kitty's four panel reaction was so well done that even someone ignorant of the connections (that'd be me) immediately understood that this was a very big deal indeed. Being familiar with Joss made me certain that the not-dead X-Man wasn't going to be the one everyone thought it was, but I don't think the playing with our expectations was heavy-handed at all.

The use of colour also really blew me away - all the different locations were done in different tones - just unified the action for each scene perfectly.


[> [> Backstory for this interested (AXM #4 and various past X-Men spoilers) -- Kenny, 08:26:01 08/26/04 Thu

For anyone not familiar with Colossus' background, here's the 411.

Peter Rasputin grew up in a commune in Soviet Russia. He's very gentle, an artist. He had a younger sister named Illyana and an older brother named Mikhael. Mikhael was a cosmonaut who died during a mission. Prof X recruited Peter, a young mutant who could turn into a colossus of "organic steel" (hence the name) to help rescue the X-Men. He and the other team of multinationals gathered by Xavier became the next generation of X-Men and helped launch the book to be one of the most successful comics ever (it had actually been cancelled once before this because the concept never quite caught on).

Kitty Pryde, a teenager from Chicago, joined the group later on, and she and Peter started dating while exiled in space. Not knowing if they were every going to make it back to earth, the kinda creepy age difference didn't really seem to matter. He later ended up breaking her heart, and they've never really been together since, although they did remain friends.

At one point, Peter's little sister was kidnapped, taken to another dimension named Limbo (a demon dimension) and became its ruler. She came back to earth as an older version of herself--very Conner-like. Lots of stuff happened, and eventually wound back her original age and went back to live with their parents in Russia.

Mikhael later made a reappearance. It turns out he hadn't died, but he had become mad and had reality-warping powers. He was later killed again. Then brought back again. I really don't know his status now, because it got way too convoluted and I wasn't interested. I think he may be dead. Also, Peter's parents were murdered. Illyana ended up moving back in with the X-Men. Unfortunately, she had contracted the Legacy Virus, which affected only mutants. It was kind of a parallel to HIV, but not written well at all. A supervillain released it to eventually kill all the mutants. Illyana was one of the first to die. At this point, Peter's become pretty much a wreck, and he decides to leave the X-Men and ally himself with Magneto, who crashed Illyana's funeral.

Magneto is later mindwiped by Prof X, and Peter decides to hang back to take care of Magneto and keep his other followers in check. Some time later he leaves and decides to find Kitty, who is on the superteam Excalibur. He shows up, only to find that Kitty is dating a guy named Pete Wisdom, a mutant British spy. Peter beats the bejeezus out of Pete. This shows just how much Peter has changed, as he used to be one of the kindest people in the X-Men. Years of bad writing and having your whole family brutally killed will kind of do this to a guy.

Finally, the Beast discovers a cure for the Legacy Virus. To make it work though, it has to be injected into a mutant, who will die, then it will become airborne and cure all the other mutants who have it. Comic book science at its worst. Peter, who feels guilty because Illyana died, and generally is ready to give up on life anyway, injects himself when no one is looking. While some people consider it a sweet story and a noble sacrifice, I view it as a self-serving suicide (it's definitely reminiscent of the Buffy argument from "The Gift"). A later story had Wolverine being angry because he viewed it the same way.

There's some 'splaining to do on JW's part, as Peter was supposedly cremated, and Kitty scattered his actions in what was actually a pretty decent story. It focused more on Kitty and he decision to stop doing the superhero thing. She took a pretty good break and went to college, until she was once again drawn into the world of mutant politics and heroics. And now we're up to date.


[> [> [> Thanks for this...I was about to ask this question myself, when I finished the issue today! -- Rob (only familiar with X-Men through the movies), 16:40:30 08/30/04 Mon



[> Re: Astonishing X-Men #4 (major spoilers) -- DorianQ, 18:01:04 08/26/04 Thu

I know that resurrection is quite common in comics in general, but everytime it happens I just find it harder and harder to empathize with the characters. And though it is a recurring theme in literature (though usually metaphorical) doesn't make it a good idea. And while Joss usually does deal with the issue with gravity, of the four actual resurrections (bringing someone back to life or unlife from entropy) he's had on the show (Darla, Joyce, Buffy, Spike), only Buffy and Joyce seemed plausible and realistic. Darla seemed like a plot device to get a noirish femme fatale and a blast from Angel's past on the show, and Spike was clause to keep the show on the air, and from his quote below, he seemed like he had a similar attidue about bringing Tara back as well. Not to add to that discussion, just the impression I got from the quote. So I don't think it's a good idea from that perspective. Also, Colossus really isn't that great of a character to be brought back anyway. Other that his emotional connection to Kitty, I don't see the point. It just seems like a twist for the sake of having a twist, which I've always abhorred.


[> [> Re: Astonishing X-Men #4 (major spoilers) -- Rob, 19:33:22 08/30/04 Mon

Also, Colossus really isn't that great of a character to be brought back anyway. Other that his emotional connection to Kitty, I don't see the point. It just seems like a twist for the sake of having a twist, which I've always abhorred.

Isn't it kind of early to judge, though, how well done his resurrection will be, seeing as we don't yet know what his purpose in the upcoming story is? His appearance so far has amounted to about 2 pages, with little dialogue.

Also, must disagree about Darla here. What Joss did by bringing her back was take what started as a one-note, rather silly character (besides the intriguing flashback in Becoming), and turn her into a rich, multi-layered, fascinating person. I felt much more emotional about Darla as a character post-resurrection than pre-.

Rob


[> Re: Astonishing X-Men #4 (major spoilers) -- lele, 19:42:02 08/26/04 Thu

I'll be getting a copy sometime tomorrow or this weekend, but I loved the detail cassaday gave to the cover. He delineated and metallized(?)every muscle in the brachial plexus region from SCM to scalenes and trapezius. Beautiful.



Flooded....(very depressed send chocolate) -- Rufus, 02:05:06 08/26/04 Thu

Sometimes it just doesn't pay to get up. I was in my comfy bed, minding my own business, when I could hear the sound of a tap going at full blast. Could it be that Mr Rufus left and forgot to turn the bathroom tap off? Nooooooooo! I forced myself to go and turn that annoying sound off when I felt, water, lots of water, and I'm on the 2nd floor. Thank god I was a life guard or I'd have been in trouble. I approached the bathroom and could see a fountain, I know we don't have a fountain and on inspection realized that the toilet tank had cracked and water was everywhere. I mean everywhere.

I called the next door neighbour who headed to the door, and it gets worse, cause it's that kinda day. Walking down the stairs I realized that I had fountains in the hallway and kitchen. Oh, and about 2 inches of water on the floor. I went into full panic mode. I did turn off the tap to the toilet before phoning my friend, so at least the water was cut off, but I had a new swimming pool downstairs, hell, one beside my blinking bed. At this point I did check both computers, cause I have priorities. So, call into Mr Rufus. "Um, could you come home, we are flooded.....no, I'm not talking about the Buffy episode, we have an actual flood. Then the other calls started. No one was home. But I finally did find some people to get me connected to our plumber. Good news, I need new toilets, bad news they won't be here til Friday, so I have to risk using the second one cause, jeeze I can't line up at my friends place all the time.

My hero arrived and promptly left to get some sucking thingame...that took only an hour...then he got to the ridding us of our new pool. Then I called a restoration service...they promised to send out a crew...what arrived, a very nice fellow, that's it. Now I have assorted fans,dehumidifiers, and a promise to be back, well today (now).

So, I'm sleeping in a sauna. My house sounds like a cross between an airplane, dishwasher, and washing machine. Buffy, not the vampire slayer, had a kitty meltdown...so she is at kitty camp til the offending people and noise is over...Rufus is with her even though I know she would gladly sit in a corner for the show but there are too many people.

So, here I sit in the one dry room, feeling sorry for myself. Good news, I don't have to pay for any of this. Bad news is I don't know how long or how much work is needed.

Pass the chocolate *sniffle*


Replies:

[> (passes lots and lots of chocolate) -- LadyStarlight, 05:23:09 08/26/04 Thu

Good luck with everthing!


[> No more full ceramic re-tank! No more full ceramic re-tank!! -- OnM, 05:34:34 08/26/04 Thu

I know a guy that's got a lot to lose
He's a pretty nice fellow but he's kind of confused
He's got muscles in his head that ain't never been used
Thinks he owns half of this town

Starts drinking heavy, gets a big red nose
Beats his old lady with a rubber hose
Then he takes her out to dinner and buys her new clothes
That's the way that the world goes 'round

That's the way that the world goes 'round
You're up one day and the next you're down
It's half an inch of water and you think you're gonna drown
That's the way that the world goes 'round

I was sitting in the bathtub counting my toes
When the radiator broke, water all froze
I got stuck in the ice without my clothes
Naked as the eyes of a clown

I was crying ice cubes hoping I'd croak
When the sun come through the window, the ice all broke
I stood up and laughed thought it was a joke
That's the way that the world goes 'round

That's the way that the world goes 'round
You're up one day and the next you're down
It's half an inch of water and you think you're gonna drown
That's the way that the world goes 'round

............ John Prine


[> More chocolate and a virtual de-humidifier -- CW, 06:26:34 08/26/04 Thu

Hope you had little permanent water damage.

Good wishes for the rest of the week.


[> How High Is the Water, Mama? -- cjl, 07:19:33 08/26/04 Thu

A box of super deluxe chocolate truffles and a freezer full of chocolate Dove bars.


[> What a nightmare! -- MaeveRigan, 08:39:31 08/26/04 Thu

So very sorry to hear this, Rufus! Sending virtual chocolate and good thoughts your way as I type. Wish I were a Canadian plumber so I could do something really useful!


[> plenty of cyber-milk chocolate to you! -- anom, 09:16:20 08/26/04 Thu

And some of the dark stuff for Mr. R. if he needs it. Or at least one of those combo-bars to share!

Aw, Rufus, it sounds awful. And no demon to take out your frustrations on! I hope everything is fixed & dry really, really soon--like tonight! And I'm glad your computers & internet connection survived so you could tell us all about it & get all this online chocolate & sympathy. And I wish a quick recovery to you & the cats.

And if you could use a laugh...just look at the ads at the top of the screen that were targeted to your post!


[> Aw, Ruf, that's terrible! -- dub, 11:35:21 08/26/04 Thu

I'm so sorry. It must be hell. At least it's not as hot as it was a couple of weeks ago, but still!

Hope you're doing okay. Let me know.

dub ;o)


[> (((Rufus))) -- Vickie, 12:30:31 08/26/04 Thu

Hugs and cyber-choco coming your way. How completely awful!

And how great that your sense of humor has survive, at least long enough to give us this extremely amusing account of the disaster. Here's hoping that things are back to normal, like NOW, and that the damage is minimal.


[> Thanks guys, now the fun has begun. -- Rufus, 16:02:12 08/26/04 Thu

I will have these fans in two of the bedrooms the upstairs hallway, and the living room for about 2 more days. Now I'm off to the Doctor cause I'm having trouble breathing (I have chronic bronchitis), but the sky has cleared and in this instance is my friend as it will help draw moisture out of the floors.

Mr. Rufus has stayed home as it has become more clear just how much damage there is. Tomorrow they are going to ventilate the ceiling to try to dry up the bit between the floors, continue on to see what they can do with the flooring (the living room may have a stain or two but is fine. Now there is an insurance company that will get involved...oh joy.

Now to the important part...the kitties. I have them at a friends place. Buffy is not bad and is doing the wander and climb routine. Rufus, well Rufus has gone on a hunger strike and won't come out from under the sofa. I'm already estimating the vet bill, who would have thought Rufus is so delicate.

Coping techniques...I have my TV on closed caption and are wearing ear plugs. Mr. Rufus, he can tune out anything...;) Where is Giles with a cheque to tide one through when you need him???????

PS, anyone with a Crane toilet may want to consider a product that doesn't self-destruct. The restoration guy did tell us that we did get off lucky compared to some clients who had toilets erupt like St. Helens depositing sewage all over. He's right I'll take water over nasty poo anytime.


[> [> can we get a progress report, rufus? -- anom, 20:07:30 08/30/04 Mon

Have you been able to turn the fans off yet? Are most of the rooms habitable? Mainly, have you been able to bring the poor cats back yet?

Hope things are back to normal before much longer....


[> [> [> Progress...of a sort. -- Rufus, 23:27:25 08/30/04 Mon

Fans, can't get rid of em. First they were in the upstairs hall and bedroom, now they have drilled holes in all the kickplates in the bathroom and kitchen and have fans aimed at them. My house looks like the inside of those cyclonic bagless vacume cleaners.

Best news is that the insurance will cover the damage, so I get all new carpets upstairs, as well as a new subfloor in the bathroom. The smelly carpet was removed and I started breathing a lot better.

How long will this take? A few weeks? I don't know. The best part is finding kitty daycare. Today I made the mistake of leaving them home with the workers and came home to a cat in the wall. So, off goes all the fans, out comes Buffy. Poor thing was panting like a dog. She is going to daycare perhaps tomorrow. Rufus just hides behind the living room sofa.

Tomorrow I pick out carpets, tonight I continue to pack up all my books...Mr Rufus is complaining of a hernia. I think I'm very considerate as most of the books are paperback...;)


[> [> [> [> what's the latest? are you dry yet? are the cats back home? -- anom, 06:47:02 09/09/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> Drying up...;) -- Rufus, 20:04:39 09/09/04 Thu

The cats are home til next week when they do an overnighter at kitty camp.

Painting is happening tomorrow, the carpets and lino installed next Wed. Then the cleanup and putting things back in place begins.

Mr. Rufus and I are fine, it was the cats who stopped eating and started to jump at the slightest sound. Buffy has a favorite spot in the master bedroom carpet...all that is left is carpet tacking and underlay...Buffy can be seen curled up on the underlay, cause the favorite spot may have changed but her attachment to it hasn't. Rufus is a oportunistic napper. She curls up around the nearest warm body that sits long enough for her to cling to.

At least I have had a chance to de-clutter.


[> [> [> [> [> [> glad things are coming along--keep us posted! -- anom, 10:32:03 09/10/04 Fri



[> Crane, official maker of the "Bidet of Evil" -- cougar, 17:29:33 08/26/04 Thu

So sorry to hear this!

When you reported a flood, at first I thought it came from outside. It's rained so hard on the Island that a huge rotted Douglas fir crashed to the ground near us, no wind, just the sheer weight of water I guess.

Two years ago our neighbour's Crane tank exploded. He's an older man, his wife was away and he sipped and fell into their trap door crawlspace, knocking himself sensless and the water was pouring in. Fortunately we were checking on him and he was rescued. He was terribly bruised. Crane has a lot to answer for.

I raise a bar of Lindt Dark Chocolate to you, and toast "To your health"!


[> [> I think the water gods are playing with us. -- Jane, 20:42:04 08/26/04 Thu

Sorry to hear about your rupture, Rufus. I came close to a similar disaster this week. Came home Monday from a 10 day trip to find my hot water tank had sprung a leak. Luckily it was just in the early stages, so I managed to get the idiot landlord to cough up a new hot water tank stat. I had visions of swimming pools in my apartment. Hope you are dry and comfy real soon.


[> [> [> Isn't it strange? -- dub ;o), 21:35:53 08/26/04 Thu

The three of us are all in the lower mainland, and although the rain has been absolutely torrential after the drought this summer, both of you have had floods unrelated to the rain.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that this phenomenon doesn't try for three out of three...

Oh, wait! Cougar's water-related problem was because of the rain, but that makes three, so maybe I'm safe?

dub *somewhat nervous now*


[> [> [> I must be tired I thought you said "rapture"...;) -- Rufus, 18:20:01 08/27/04 Fri



[> [> Oh dear.. -- Rufus, 18:18:59 08/27/04 Fri

Yes Crane has to answer for their defective product. The fellow from the restoration company said that Crane has given his company more work over that past few years than they can deal with. And explode is right, there is no way to predict which toilet or when the toilet will explode. Thank god I was home. Now we have to deal with the fact there are 44 units in our complex and now we have to consider replacing all the toilets before the next flood.



something that puzzled me about Inside Out -- ghady, 08:07:23 08/26/04 Thu

i get everything now (and may i just say "WOW"!)

But one thing Skip said confused me a bit: "You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy."

What has ALL THIS got to do with Evil!Cordelia and her little pregnancy? How do all these events have ANY effect on the conception of the baby?


Replies:

[> Re: something that puzzled me about Inside Out -- Seven, 10:22:29 08/26/04 Thu

Those events led those characters to make certain choices in their life. It likely wasn't even those choices though, it was the minute choices made before them that led to them. EvilCordy needed certain players IN CERTAIN MINDSETS in order to move them along the chessboard, in order to "kill the King"


[> Re: something that puzzled me about Inside Out -- DorianQ, 10:35:44 08/26/04 Thu

A simple answer would be that he was bluffing. What he waas trying to tell them was that Cordelia wasn't the only one be used as a pawn of the Beastmaster, which would hopefully stop them from trying to stop the birth.

Looking at each incident he mentioned, they don't really seem like accidents or things that were cosmically manipulated. Fred didn't open the wrong book; she was just curious (like in a future episode that I nearly forgot that you haven't seen was totally about to describe. Sorry)and had probably read most if not all of the other books in the library. Similarily, Lorne hated life in Pylea which was why he walking away in the woods when he found Fred's portal and went through. I haven't seen War Zone (please take pity on me and send me the DVDs. just kidding) but from my limited knowledge of sex, I don't think there are accidents unless you really trying to put it in her purse.

Basically, Skip is trying to feed them the line that they have no free will and are just pawns in Evil!Cordy's chess game, which I don't buy, because I do believe in free will (call me crazy) and plus that theme of free will gets breought to the forefront very soon.

About your message above with Darla and the First, I doubt it. A. I think she touched Connor. B. If the Beastmaster was trying to stop the first, she would have headed over to Sunnydale and started the army there. C. The Powers (and Senior Partners) send direct agents when they need to. That's what Darla was here and what Holland Manners was in Reprise. D. After the first season, the shows keep their big storylines seperate usually with the sole exception of Buffy's Death and resurrection. So I'm certain beyond a reasonable doubt that that wasn't the First.


[> [> another thing... -- ghady, 11:30:39 08/26/04 Thu

so has the Big Bad inside Cordy ALWAYS been inside Cordy? they weren't very clear on that. and when the HELL will we get an explanation for connor's existence??(if explanations are offered in future episodes, then don't tell me.)


[> [> [> Re: another thing... -- DorianQ, 13:31:33 08/26/04 Thu

It wasn't always in Cordy, but it is a little unclear (at least to me) when she was taken over. It was either in Apocalypse Nowish when she was conceived, or in The House Always Wins when Cordy does something up in heaven to save Angel and gets sent back to Earth. I only saw that episode once and I didn't tape it, but I think that's where the switch or takeover occurred. By the way, the next five episodes are some of, if not the best episodes of the series. You are in for a treat and don't forget to tape them all.


[> [> [> [> cool.. too bad i don't have a vcr (weird!).. but i did pre-order the DVD set from amazon.. -- ghady, 14:44:42 08/26/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> one more thing (sorry).. what's the point of the beast?? or is that explained too? -- ghady, 15:00:16 08/26/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> Have you seen Shiny Happy People? -- DorianQ, 17:38:08 08/26/04 Thu

Because this will all make more sense after you see it. This isn't really spoilery as speculative, but it talks about her plans and personality that you wouldn't get until afer SHP. so with that WARNING, here goes:




















Evil!Cordy used him to cause a lot of chaos and destruction, so she could sweep in and save the day. In order to make herself an amazing hero, she needed an unforgettable nemesis to defeat. That's why she had him make that dagger out of his hide so she could sweep into town and destroy him with one swift blow, ending the reign of terror and restore light to L.A. There's also the utilitarian purpose of needing someone to cover her tracks and do her dirty work, like cut off W&H and ransack their firm. Then she turned Angel into Angelus to provide a distraction for the Gang and to remove Angel(the most cunning and devious of them, with the possible exception of Wes. Angel is the freaking investigator of Angel Investigations). And that's where she screwed up because she forgot that Angelus is still Angel, just sans conscience, and the extreme lengths that Wes would go to. Angelus stole her thunder by wasting the Beast, and rather than killing Angelus like she planned, Wes broke someone out of jail, drugged her up, sicced her on Angelus, and called in one of the bigger mages in the hemisphere. Her plan fell apart really quickly after that, and if Conner hadn't showed, she probably would have been stopped right there. It's a really good mystery. I hope that clears it up a little bit.


[> [> [> [> [> [> i'll read that after i see SHP. thx. -- ghady, 05:32:21 08/27/04 Fri




was Darla the First??? -- ghady, 09:17:01 08/26/04 Thu

It makes sense if you really dwell on it. Sure, what she says isn't your usual First mind games, but what if the First HAD to appear to Connor in the form of a loving mother in order to stop that woman from being born. The First wants evil to reign, and--judging from angel's reaction to the woman (wasn't she in hercules??!!) at the end of Inside Out--what she's brining is fuzzy, warm, and happy feelings. I realize that it's very far-fetched, but could it be?? Could the First, as Darla, have been trying to stop the birth??


Replies:

[> Re: was Darla the First??? -- Kenny, 10:30:41 08/26/04 Thu

I doubt it. If nothing else, the shows were pretty divorced from each other at that point in time. They brought Willow in as a plot device to get Faith to Sunnydale, both the ongoing stories were quite seperated. Also, Evil!Cordy couldn't see Darla, but she was able to recognize her presence when she focused hard enough. I don't think the first is that good at fooling people (for instance, I doubt a telepath would be tricked).



what's faith's last name? -- ghady, 10:04:23 08/26/04 Thu



Replies:

[> Re: what's faith's last name? -- dlgood, 11:58:47 08/26/04 Thu

It's never mentioned on the show. Neither were Angel or Spike's human surnames mentioned. Heck, it's somewhat possible that "Faith" isn't even her real name.



was cordy's hair color change from S3 to S4 deliberate? -- ghady, 11:25:32 08/26/04 Thu

at the end of S3, with the whole higher being thing, she had this REALLY blond hair and was clad in white robes. then in the higher realm, same deal, surrounded by a white light.
bam she came back down, and slowly, her clothes became darker (and so did her hair), and by Players, she was all dressed in a dark trampy outfit w/ dark hair.
coincidence? possibly.


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[> An inside joke -- DorianQ, 13:25:50 08/26/04 Thu

She said the produceres joked that Angel preferred blondes (Darla, Buffy, Kate). As the season went on it and Cordy blew Angel off then slept with his kid (Am I the only one not really grossed out by that?), Angel was growingly less enamored with her until Inside Out where he goes to kill her, so her hair and wardrobe grew darker as well.

This happens with all the characters in both shows. In her moment of clarity in The Gift, Buffy was in an all white ensemble. When resurrected, she was in that hideous black dress. Buffy wore black almost the whole of season six and I was surprised that they didn't bring back her natural brown hair along with the haircut in Gone. The same with Angel. Watch for the episodes where he wears something other than black. Another great example is Willow. In Seeing Red, right before you know what, she's wearing a really white blouse, and if memory serves correctly, she rarely if ever wears white. After that gets splattered, she changes (along with her hair and eyes) into an all black getup to wreak vengence, a suit she actually did wear before, right after getting busted for getting high. Faith, too. During her first run on the show, her hair was all black and so were her clothes. When she came back to beat up Angelus, hair was brown and she wore mostly jeans and jean jackets. One odd thing though in the wizard's duel in Orpheus, that Cordy's (the bad one) eyes went white when doing her magics, and Willow's (the good one) eyes stayed going black. I wonder the significance of that.

God only knows why it was cut so short, though.


[> [> so everything my 10th grade english teacher taught me is applicable even on TV!! cool! -- ghady, 14:51:34 08/26/04 Thu




what words are considered profane?? -- ghady, 07:31:57 08/27/04 Fri

They can say bitch on TV, but not shit.
They can say "we're screwed" but not "i wanna screw her." (well, excpet for willow, who said "you screw a vampire just to feel".. but they beeped that out over here)
Why??
Who comes up w/ all these rules?
And how come TV shows like Six Feet Under can get away w/ "fuck"??
What about nudity?? How much skin-revealing does it take to be deemed inappropriate??


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[> [D]evolution -- GreatRewards, 10:23:23 08/27/04 Fri

This isn't the "Leave It To Beaver" TV that we watched as kids. Today's TV is an ever-[d]evolving amoeba of filth (much like Steve McQueen's nemesis in that fabulous 1958 movie...I'll let you guys figure THAT one out!).

It surprises me, too, that we hear so much more foul language on so-called "regular" tv these days, though it still appears to be limited (for the most part) to the "cable" channels higher up on the dial.

Just the other night I happened upon an episode of "Nip/Tuck" on USA. One of the main characters was having very graphic sex with a sex doll and it left very little to the imagination. Later, that same character yelled "Goddamn it" and "asshole" at someone. I used to think those were taboo words. [D]evolving.

Though there still appears to be a line - a very dim and fuzzy line - that people aren't yet willing to cross. Take "Sex & The City", for example, and it's recent move to TBS in syndication. People were concerned that the show wouldn't translate to "cleaner" television. They feared that every other word out of Kim Catrell's mouth would have to be bleeped or muted or (gasp!) overdubbed, completely ruining the show.

Times they are a-changin', my friends. Don't hurt yourself falling over when you turn on Sesame Street one of these days and hear Oscar The Grouch yell at some noisy kids: "Hey! Fuck off you little runts! Go bother Snuffle-dumbass-gus, or whatever his Goddamn name is! I'm tryin' ta screw in here!!"

[D]evolve.


[> [> The Blob! -- Vegeta, 11:52:41 08/27/04 Fri



[> [> [> 10 points for Vegeta. :-) -- GreatRewards, 13:08:25 08/27/04 Fri



[> Here's about how I understand it -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:52:11 08/27/04 Fri

The Federal Communications Commission was created a long while ago to basically give the public a forum through which to control the airwaves, so anything broadcast along a bandwidth (ie, all free TV) is FCC regulated. I'm not quite sure how it works in various time slots, but I know that in primetime TV shows they can get away with "bitch", "bastard", as well as "whore", I think, if it's used as a description rather than an exclamation (I don't think a character can yell out "You whore!"). Similarly, I think that "screw", when used in a non-sexual manner, is allowed. Regarding nudity: the butt, breasts, or groin are strictly off limits (except in some animation, like "The Simpsons", which can get away with rear nudity sometimes, or when it's presented on a classic painting.

Now cable is different. Since it's sent through wires and beamed through satellite, the FCC can't regulate it unless the government passed some censorship laws that could also be used to invade people's phone calls and Inernet use. As such, cable TV can choose to have however much nudity, profanity, and violence they want, as long as it doesn't drive away advetisers. As such, cable TV often holds onto primtime broadcast standards (albeit often applying them to all timeslots, not just the evening), unless they put up a disclaimer before the show warning of content. Even then, though, an extremely violent and sex-filled show like "Nip/Tuck" doesn't show groinal nudity and rarely breast nudity, not to mention not using the word "fuck" (although "shit" is used quite freely).

Lastly we come to Pay TV like HBO or Showtime, TV channels that you have to pay a certain amount to see their programming (not like with cable where you pay the cable company and the networks don't see a dime). Because they rely on people paying them and not advertisers (who might not want their product associated with profanity and violence), they can do whatever it is they feel like doing.


[> [> That's what *I* was going to say. (grin) -- GreatRewards, 13:09:43 08/27/04 Fri



[> [> Profane words still forbidden even on HBO -- Cleanthes, 08:23:33 08/31/04 Tue

The words that HBO uses all the time, for instance on their "edgy" Deadwood, are the obscene and course words, like bitch, bastard, shit, fuck, cunt. None of these words were forbidden in Chaucer's time.

The words that HBO doesn't use, but that the actual denizens of Deadwood will have used are the profane oaths:

Jesus Christ's bloody foreskin, or Mother Mary's tits.


Quaint oaths don't "sell" to modern audiences, so, instead, we get the "f" word over and over, and, despite frequency of use, still with a verbal stress in the sentence structure. I've been around folks who employ course words frequently. They stress the words no more than the average teenages stresses "like" or "you know" in sentences.


[> there's a famous routine by george carlin... -- anom, 20:02:31 09/09/04 Thu

...about the "7 words you can't say on TV." Here's a link a page w/a transcription of it, although it doesn't come close to conveying the delivery (it's much funnier to hear), & I thought there was more after the point where the transcript leaves off.

The routine dates back to 1972, before cable TV. Others in this thread have gone into the differences btwn. allowable content on broadcast vs. cable. What I haven't seen mentioned is the censors who work for the networks themselves--the people who try to keep content w/in the bounds determined not only by the FCC but by sponsors & self-appointed gusrdians of "community standards" (remember the threads about the right-wing groups that called Buffy a threat to the family?). There are lots of funny "war stories" about compromises forced by network censors, like allowing a stronger word in the script in exchange for making a character's costume less revealing.

There's also a distinction many people don't make btwn. words that are profane (religion-based words like "hell" & "damn") & those that are obscene (words having to do w/certain body parts & their functions). The former have become much more acceptable than they were in earlier generations. OK, so have the latter, but not to anywhere near the same extent. Meanwhile, racial & ethnic slurs, though not addressed by FCC regs, have become far less acceptable, depending on context.

"...but they beeped that out over here."

Where's "over here"?


[> [> "Over here" is Lebanon. LOL this cable channel used to bleep "bitch" & "bastard". Not anymore though -- ghady, 17:55:04 09/11/04 Sat






Okay...way off topic and I'm probably jinxing myself by doing this...but -- shadowkat, 20:04:05 08/27/04 Fri

Ahem, for the people on the board who've been following this and aren't on livejournal....starting The Happy Snoopy Dance... [tap, tap, tap, tappity, tap, tap...pauses for effect, big grin]...

I GOT A JOB!!! A REAL FULL-TIME COMPLETE WITH BENEFITS ACTUAL JOB!!! WITH A NICE COMPANY!!!

[tappity, tap, tap...falls down in complete exhaustion.] "Okay, that is all...you can go about your business now..."

[Crosses fingers and prays she hasn't jinxed herself]


Replies:

[> Congradulations!!! -- Masq, 20:07:06 08/27/04 Fri

I am on live journal, but I'll congrat you here too anyway.

Thanks for sharing it with the fam!


[> [> Re: Congradulations!!! -- s'kat, 20:34:25 08/27/04 Fri

Thanks for sharing it with the fam!

Heh! You're Welcome. And thanks!

Least I could do. I've posted the bad stuff often enough.
Must share the good as well!


[> Mazol tov! -- Cheryl, 20:38:48 08/27/04 Fri

That's wonderful news. Do we get more details?


[> [> Re: Mazol tov! -- s'kat, 20:43:49 08/27/04 Fri

Can't really reveal that much here...being public and all.

It's a good company. It's in a location I love.
And while not perfect, nothing ever is. It's good news!!


[> Congrats! -- lele, 04:55:34 08/28/04 Sat



[> Yahoo!! -- Arethusa, 11:26:15 08/28/04 Sat

I am so glad! This is wonderful news. Congratulations!


[> [> Re: Yahoo!! -- s'kat, 19:10:47 08/28/04 Sat

Thank you! For the support and the kindness as well.
Very much appreciated.


[> Congratulations, S-k! All best wishes, 'cos you deserve the best! -- MaeveRigan, 14:20:39 08/28/04 Sat

Keeping my fingers crossed for you. Just hope you'll be able to continue thinking deep thoughts and writing them down, because we all want that!

Cheers!


[> Congrats SK. -- Sophist, 18:23:14 08/28/04 Sat



[> Congratulations! And celebrations! -- Pip, 13:21:55 08/29/04 Sun



[> Ceremonial burning of old resume will take place once you're on the new job. -- cjl, 18:57:21 08/29/04 Sun



[> I am so very HAPPY for you!!!!!! That's great shadowkat. -- Briar Rose, 02:19:58 08/31/04 Tue



[> [> Thanks Everyone!!! -- s'kat, 19:00:13 09/04/04 Sat




Lover's Betrayal -- mac, 12:26:15 08/28/04 Sat

In "Slouching Through Bethelehem", we're supposed to believe that Lilah had betrayed Wesley with that trick of hers, which led Lorne exposed to her and the W&H minions.

But I wonder if anyone had bothered to stop and think that Lilah would have never been able to "betray" Wesley, if he hadn't tried to betray her, himself by eavesdropping on her conversation and running to Angel and Co.


Replies:

[> Re: Lover's Betrayal -- ghady, 18:34:38 08/28/04 Sat

there was gonna be betrayal eventually either way.. and if i recall correctly, lilah's convo on the phone was meant to fool wesley, right? so she KNEW he was still "good" and he KNEW she would ALWAYS be "evil." he thought he was deceiving her, and she was deceiving HIM, at the same time.
their relationship was not what you would call "loving" or "trusting" or "caring" even, though wesley DID call lilah his girlfriend.
Lilah was STILL working for W&H, and--being the succuBITCH that she is--would do anything to please the SPs. just MO, but i don't think lilah would have ever allowed herself to turn "good," "nice," and "loyal."


[> Lilah says as much -- Vickie, 10:02:27 08/30/04 Mon

Lilah points this fact out to Wes when he says that she played him. I don't have the quote handy, something about he couldn't have been played if he hadn't been eavesdropping on her to begin with.



how all-knowing IS the First?? -- ghady, 05:48:15 08/28/04 Sat

It knows a lot of deep, personal information about the characters. It knows about spike/buffy. about angel/buffy. about angelus' ENTIRE history. It knows what buffy says about the potentials in Get It Done, and thus repeats it using Buffy's voice. It knows that Angel came back from hell.
But there are a LOT of things It is unaware of. trivial things. for instance, It can't tell that andrew isn't on his side in First Date. and the way it deduces that andrew is wearing a wire is VERY mundane. any human could've made THAT deduction. so what's the limit to the First's wisdom?


Replies:

[> Re: how all-knowing IS the First?? -- Tymen, 12:06:50 08/28/04 Sat

The reason I figured it knew those specific things had to do with the fact that it if you were dead or in the case of Buffy, had died. It knew what you knew. Thus Buffy and Spike were in effect her inside men within the Scoobie Gang. So, it didn't know Andrew wasn't on her side, because Buffy or Spike weren't in on that plan to use Andrew to extract information from the First. Fairly simple really, if you think about it. As for Wisdom, who knows, ithad knowledge but had an understanding of things skewed by it's own biases like anyone else did. It being Evil, could not conceive of doing good deeds, or things benefitting others before yourself. It wouldn't understand altruism or those impulses becasue they would be foreign to it, or even antithetical to it, if you will.


[> [> Re: how all-knowing IS the First?? -- mac, 12:18:55 08/28/04 Sat

Why do many viewers treat the First as if it is a sentient being like Glory or Mayor Wilkins?

The First is the spirit of evil within every being. Although Buffy had defeated its plans in "Chosen", it still managed to live on in the Fang Gang, the Senior Partn ers and every being in existence.


[> [> [> to mac: yea, that's why the First is one of my favorite villains EVER.. -- ghady, 17:46:01 08/28/04 Sat

too bad that in most of S7, they didn't portray It as EVIL and SCARY as they did in Amends..


[> [> so ure saying that the moment u die, the First knows EVERYTHING about u, and if.... -- ghady, 17:40:29 08/28/04 Sat

you come back to life, it STILL knows everything? (ie the things u do AFTER the resurrection??)


[> [> [> I don't think so... -- DorianQ, 23:48:25 08/28/04 Sat

In the case of Buffy, it probably didn't quite know how much she had changed in Season Six. But I don't think she changed that much as opposed to going through a lot of self-realization, so the First still knew her very well and could predict her moves. Spike, on the other hand, was possibly a bigger pawn for the First than the Gang realized.


[> Who Ever Said it was? -- Majin Gojira, 05:24:19 08/29/04 Sun

If something is All Knowing, then it knows what is going to happen and cannot change it no matter how hard it tries because even if it does, it KNOWS what will happen before it does it, and thus really has no free will.

The first was never stated in the series to be All Knowing. Just Ancient and Pervasive. Age often gives Immortal Beings lots of knowledge.



WAYY off topic, but BLEGHHHHH -- ghady, 18:32:59 08/28/04 Sat

i normally would call my friends in a case liek this, but it's like 4:30 am over here, so they're either sleeping or getting drunk at some club..

here it is.. the horror..










A COCKROACH JUST CRAWLED INTO MY ROOM.. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH.. i SERIOUSLY freaked out.. i thought i had gotten over this irrational fear, but the moment i saw its shiny, brown exoskeleton nearly hovering across the floor, i JUMPED to my bed and began to scream and whine compulsively. i didn't even WANT to yell. my vocal chords functioned on their own.. like a reflex!! my mom immediately ran into the room, half-asleep, worried as SHIT.. then i told her it was a cockroach.. and she disposed of it (after giving me evil looks).. YEYYY

phew... i'm still gonna have nightmares, but at least nothing's gonna crawl into my temporal lobe and lay its eggs in there (hopefully)



Facing Inward (Buffy's Spiritual Journey, 1.12, part one of three) -- manwitch, 08:07:25 08/29/04 Sun

About a third of the way through Prophecy Girl, there is a wonderful moment when Giles is in his office and Jenny Calendar enters to report to him the portents she has been hearing over email and the internet, portents she describes as apocalypse stuff. The apocalypse is, of course, the end of the world as we know it, and in psychological terms, the most efficient way of ending the world as we know it is for us to know the world differently. When we change ourselves, our perception, our relationship to the world, even though that world itself remains untouched, the world as we knew it comes to an end and a new one comes into being. In this sense, Jenny s grim portents carry a delightful significance and an insight into the sophisticated message of inward transformation of this still very young television series.

A cat gave birth to a litter of snakes, Jenny reports. The portent recalls some basic and very old mythological images. The cat is the lion, whose glowing mane, like the radiant beams of the sun, reveals the eternal nature of life itself as the energy beyond life s forms. The snakes who shed their skin, metaphorically sloughing off death and continuing to live, reflect the power of life in the field of time, through the cycle of death and rebirth. The general message of the image is quite in keeping with the message of the dancing Shiva that Giles keeps in his office and that appeared prominently in Buffy s dream in the very opening teaser of WttH, that namely of the dual nature of our experience as part of both the mortal forms of space and time and the eternal force that animates them all. And it seems natural that the the eternal power of life beyond forms represented by the lion cat, should give birth to the expression of that same power in the the cycle of life, death and rebirth in the field of time, as represented by the snake. This cycle of life, death and rebirth refers also to the God, who sacrifices himself and is resurrected. In the tantric Hindu tradition, from which Kundalini Yoga comes, there is an image of Shiva, lying on his back atop his own corpse and being mounted by his lion-goddess (cat) consort in a symbol of the regeneration of the self-sacrificed one. The power of this revivification in the field of time is known as sakti, and in kundalini is pictured as a great sleeping serpent (snake), which when awakened, seeks to reunite itself with the bliss of Shiva. So in this first portent, we have a strong image of the power of life to throw off death, and in psychological terms, of one s ability to align oneself with the eternal power (the cat) that is the source of the form that lives and dies (the snake). One is to recognize that our mortal forms are simply the temporal offspring of the immortal formless. With this recognition, one can sacrifice the material self and come alive to the spiritual one. This is, of course, exactly the task that Buffy has been resisting all season, and with which she must now come to terms.

Jenny continues, some people were swimming in a lake and the water began to boil. Psychologicaly speaking, the water represents the unconscious. Most of the time people dwell in consciousness, above the surface, believing things to be calm and under their control. But when the water starts to boil, the powers of the unconscious are breaking forth, forcing their way into conscious domains. The subconscious cannot be denied forever, and the trick is to make peace with those powers, to incorporate and assimilate them rather than bottle them up, to be informed by these natural inner powers and allow them to guide you to an enhanced experience.

So this bubbling lake image dovetails nicely with what we have seen all season in the metaphorical setting of the show. When we translate Sunnydale into a metaphorical landscape of Buffy s psychological space, we see that earth has represented the solid and unmoving surface of conscious life to which she has been clinging. It is the barrier between the world in which she wants to live and the world of her spiritual nature and commitment. She thinks she can ignore, deny or beat back the things that lie under that surface, whether under the placid surface of the lake, or, in this Sunnydale imagery, under the earth, in the sewers and in the subterranean church. The vampires, and particularly the Master, are the personification of subconscious powers that are calling for expression in Buffy s life. The Master is a scary monster only because Buffy fears and rejects what he represents, the subconscious transformative power of her spiritual commitment. The source of that power is seen as the mouth of Hell for the same reason. She has used her conscious self to restrain that power, like a cork in a bottle, trapping it beneath the surface in a spiritual chamber that she has also buried. So when the earth quakes, it means that fissures are opening in this barrier between worlds, and that, like the bubbling lake, the powers of the subconscious are beginning to come forth into consciousness.

And of course, these fissures are most prominent in the library, the metaphor for consciousness. Giles, we have seen, is Buffy s mind, her consciousness, her sense of control. And the library, the storehouse of conscious knowledge, is his domain. And we find later in the episode that, appropriately enough, the Hellmouth is immediately below the library, because the subconscious lies underneath consciousness. And so the cracks in the library foretell the same truth as Jenny s second portent, namely that conscious restraint of these powers is impossible. They will find their way to expression.

And finally, Jenny concludes with, A child was born with his eyes facing inward, the meaning of which is pretty clear. It is not through looking outward that the world will be transformed, but through looking inside oneself. Changing the world is not the answer. If the apocalypse is to be averted, it is Buffy herself that must be transformed. The new birth is one of the spirit, to be found within, or nowhere at all.

And of course, the apocalypse that all the portents portend in psychological terms is not the rise of the Master, but the rebirth of Buffy as a spiritual creature, bringing to an end the world that had come before. Buffy must look within herself, surrender to the spiritual impulses that are stirring within her, and recognize herself not as simply this high school girl body clinging to a normal life, but as the eternal spirit that illuminates that form. Her task in season one is to die to her childish self and come alive to the spiritual one. Apocalypse stuff. Jenny gives us a brilliant summation of season one and its climax in three little lines.

(continued in part two)


Replies:

[> Facing Inward (Buffy's Spiritual Journey, 1.12, part two of three) -- manwitch, 08:10:27 08/29/04 Sun

Obviously, with an episode this rich, its difficult to go through every frame. You could write a whole book on this episode alone. So I m just going to focus on the completion of the theme, including the further development of the child metaphor, and on the use of other characters as representations of Buffy to support this completion.

And the theme of the season has always been that Buffy must accept inwardly this spiritual calling, this spiritual responsibility which she has thus far resisted. She must choose to be the Slayer. For the entire season up to this point has been about Buffy s overidentification with her material self, and her refusal to open herself up to the higher calling that her subconscious is asking for. Buffy repeatedly expresses the desire for a normal life cheerleading, boys, values, friends, mom, hair, etc. She resists Giles entreaties to accept her slayer responsibilities. And not only does she resist them, she fears them. She fears the power of her subconscious, the power of these spiritual needs somewhere within her calling for expression. This power is symbolized by the Master, who lives out of sight and mind, in a buried spiritual chamber and stops up the well of unknown powers beneath. The Master is the perfect metaphor for the power of Buffy s subconscious, and since she is afraid of that power that threatens her normal conscious life, the Master appears as a terrifying monster to her, and the well beneath him appears as the mouth of hell. Buffy fears also the transformation she will undergo if she commits to this higher calling, a fear symbolized in Nightmares by Buffy s vamping at the hands of the Master. She knows that Buffy on the other side of this commitment will not be the normal Buffy she has known and that she clings to. If she makes this choice, that Buffy will die.

But of course, as Jenny s portents have told us, that is the coice that must be made. This crisis is identical to the first spiritual transformation achieved in Kundalini Yoga, which is an ancient spiritual meditation from Tantric Hinduism. The goal of kundalini, which means coiled up, is to awaken one s energy, known as Sakti, which is imagined as a sleeping, coiled up serpent, and start it on a spiritual journey towards reunification with the divine bliss of Shiva in pure, formless love. I mentioned this already in relation to Jenny s first portent. The spiritual journey goes through seven transformations, the first being to let go of the childish ego that clings to consciousness, to what it knows, to your normal, familiar existence, and wake up to this spiritual journey itself. The first task of the yogi is to choose to awaken his sleeping sakti and get started. We recall that the season began with Buffy sleeping and dreaming of Shiva s Dance of Life, and we recall Luke, as he raised the Master, metaphorically Buffy s subconscious power, chanting The sleeper shall wake, the sleeper shall wake. The theme of the first season has been exactly the spiritual transformation of the first chakra of kundalini yoga. Let go of this familiar but empty life to which you have been clinging and embark on the spiritual journey.

(I should briefly note that in Kundalini, the first chakra is associated with the element earth for its properties of solidity and resistance. This certainly matches Buffy s resistance. The earth is also the metaphorical boundary between consciousness and the subconscious in Buffy s life. Under the earth are all the aspects of the mystery world that she attempts to hold in check, including the subterranean chamber of the Master. Buffy is buried by earth in Nightmares from which she emerges again transformed. The same will happen again in Prophecy Girl. And an earthquake heralds the opening of Buffy to her subconscious, which is the apocalypse itself. So season one seems to be associated with the element earth as well. You don t have to buy into it now, but it might matter as we go on through the seasons.)

Now, I used the word childish to describe the ego that clings to consciousness. Note that it characterizes the ego. I m not saying the ego of a child. This crisis is not a crisis limited to children. Its for anyone who is stuck on what they are, afraid of what they might become if they opened themselves up to experience. There are a lot of adults, in fact I think its mostly adults, that fit this bill. Buffy is not telling a story about children growing up that has applicability to other children growing up. Its telling a story of spiritual development and maturity. Its about how to realize at any age that you and your world are significantly more than just you and your world. Buffy tells this story through metaphors, of which Buffy is one, and her friends are others. Through their story that is depicted, we see how we ourselves can follow this spiritual path. Buffy is us.

And throughout all eleven episodes, the show has used metaphors that indicate Buffy s childishness in resisting, and the need for her to accept, this spiritual charge. We have seen the Amy/Mom Witch metaphor, where the desire to cling to a childish life that is no longer appropriate can cause you to wake up one morning and realize that your life has passed you by. We have seen the battle between Sid, the true spirit contained in an expendable form, and the demon who seeks to stay forever a child, clinging to the body by destroying our hearts and minds. We have seen the terrifying Annointed One, who is really just the child we all have been that is Chosen to lead us to spiritual maturity. And we have seen Billy Palmer, the frightened little boy who finds, behind the mask of his fears, a radiant light that can transform the world.

And now, in Prophecy Girl (phew, he is gonna talk about Prophecy Girl after all), we see the child metaphor taken to completion. When Buffy walks into the library, delighted to hear Angel s voice, she gets the shock of her short life. Angel is a metaphor for Buffy s spiritual calling, for the aspect of this mystery world that she desires. In the last episode, Angel, the emissary from this other world, entered the school through the basement (the subconscious) and delivered to Giles, the metaphor for Buffy s conscious mind, the Codex, the ancient book of prophecy which is in metaphorical terms the code to understanding the messages from Buffy s subconscious. She hears Giles read from the book of prophecy, Tomorrow night Buffy will face the Master, and she will die. Conscious mind is stuck on the literal nature of the words. Angel, who knows the ways of the mystery domain, responds You re reading it wrong. But Buffy, clinging to consciousness like Giles, can only hear the words Giles reads for what they are. She is first struck by the absurdity of her life, by its insignificance, the fact that she will not be missed. I know the drill, she says. One dies, another one called. And yet, she is aware that clinging to consciousness has failed her. You re so helpful, she cries sarcastically, with all of your books. And the mind agrees. I don t suppose I am, says Giles sadly. Then she quits. She rips the cross from her neck, the cross that Angel had given her as a token of this calling, as a reminder of the path he wants her to travel. She rips it from her neck, throws it on the floor and says I quit. And to make sure we understand why she s quitting, she says, Giles, I m sixteen. I don t wanna die. Couldn t be much clearer.

Of course, there is little sillier or more childish than quitting life, which is exactly what she s doing. So you re gonna die. Big whip. Who isn t? Awww, is life hard on you baby? Didn t get to do everything you wanted? Join the frickin club. But not our li l baby Buffy. She wants out. Home she goes, to mommy. Mom, let s go away together, just you and me and you can talk about all those embarassing things you like to bring up. In the face of life, her retreat to the womb is nearly total.

Now, my own bitterness at the world aside, I should acknowledge that what Buffy is feeling is perfectly understandable. We ve all been there once or twice. But you can t stay there in that counterproductive state of retreat. As we learned, and as we thought Buffy learned, in Out of Mind, Out of Sight, life isn t about what we want or what we deserve, its about what of ourselves we are willing to give. We can predict, of course, what s going to happen when Buffy clings to herself, to safe, to mommy, to normal. Willow is going to be put in danger or otherwise traumatized.

The reason for this is because Willow is a metaphor for Buffy s spirit. She s her own full character to be sure, but everything she does, everything that happens to her is indicative of Buffy s spiritual development. So in Season One, as Buffy resists the very idea of her spiritual calling, what she is resisting is the healthy development of her spirit itself. And that means Willow. When Buffy resists, Willow suffers. And sure enough, when Buffy quits and retreats to the womb, Willow faces the aftermath of a concurrent tantrum, perpetrated this time by the child known as the Anointed One.

Thank God for Joyce. She won t let Buffy stay a child. They won t go away together. She tells Buffy a story, not just about having your whole life ahead of you, but about having other s lives ahead of you as well. The Spring Fling is where Joyce met Buffy s father, and the result of that was more than simply Joyce. The result was new life, Buffy s life. Your life is about more than you, she seems to say. Its time to go live it. And she gives Buffy a dress, a pure white dress. Supposedly she will wear it to SpringFling, but its really the dress for her baptism/confirmation, for the ritual act of her commitment to the spiritual path. And as Buffy dons the dress, Joyce sends her on her way with a single word: Willow.

And so Buffy comes to find Willow traumatized over the blood-dimmed cartoonfest. I m trying to say this so you ll understand. Willow is concerned here that Buffy get the point she is making. I knew those people. I went to that room every day. It wasn t our world anymore, Buffy. They made it theirs. The world Willow is losing, that we are losing, is the world of our possibility, of our spiritual potential. She knew those people as kids, and they stayed that way. They died that way. Lives devoid of spiritual commitment, reduced to passivity, watching life as though it were a cartoon, die just as surely as lives of spiritual action. But while they may have fun living and dying with no sense of moral responsibility, they leave us an empty cruel world. What are we going to do? Willow asks. And Buffy get s the message. What we have to. Life isn t necessarily about fun, or what we want, or killing people. Its about who we are, what kind of world we leave behind as a result of our having been here. Buffy realizes the measure of her life is not what hair she had, or whether she made the cheerleading team, or even who her boyfriend was, but rather what she stands for. And so in her confirmation dress, and wrapped in Angel s leather jacket, she goes off to face the Master.

(continued in part three)


[> [> Facing Inward (Buffy's Spiritual Journey, 1.12, part three of three) -- manwitch, 08:14:27 08/29/04 Sun

She returns to the library to pick up the cross. This tells us that she is embracing this spiritual path. But the terms on which she is going to do it are different. She is no longer the one-slayer-dies-another-is-called cog in the great machine of the fight against evil. She is going to create a world in which Willow can flourish. It s a subtle distinction, but a very important one. She decks out Giles before she goes, symbolically recognizing that this is not a fight by consciousness, but rather its surrender, and also symbolically suggesting that she is not doing this under the jurisdiction of the Watcher s Council. She is doing it herself

What happens next is for me one of the most beautiful sequences in the 7 year history of the show. As Buffy walks out of the school she sees a child who cries simply help me.

And she does.

Its Ok, says Buffy comfortingly. I know who you are. No trickery will be required. She holds out her hand. She is willing.

In this beautiful image of woman and child, Buffy not only accepts her destiny, but she comforts her executioner, knowing full well what this child is and what he is there to do. Its Ok, she says. She helps him by forgiving him. She recognizes that she and this child are bound up in the same pageant, each with a role to play. Campbell often quotes Seneca, the fates lead him who will, him who won t they drag. In choosing to go willingly, she changes that fate. It s the Get out of jail free card that we discussed in relation to Oedipus and The Puppet Show. By showing she has the character to embrace the fate that is given her, she is granted the unseen way out. She says, I know who you are, and in that moment we realize the prophecy is defeated. The prophecy had stated, she will not know him, and he will lead her into hell. Now, one could say that she really didn t know him before, in episode 5, and that s what the prophecy was referring to, but the line is repeated many times in Prophecy Girl, and Buffy s comforting words to the boy go directly against the prophecy. I know who you are. And she helps him finally, precisely by knowing who he is, knowing that he is she, that she is helping her own child to move on. Metaphorically speaking, this Annointed One, or Chosen One, is the child of her own innocence to which she has been clinging, but who is now chosen for something more. As a metaphor, he s not evil, he s not there to hurt her, merely to lead her on to the next stage, which, while she was clinging to her childish self, appeared to be the mouth of hell. We all, at some point, were innocent children, but that child seems inevitably to lead to a loss of innocence, to an introduction to a harsh and bitter world. It can t help but take us there. But it is frankly childish to cling to it, to resent our moral responsibilities. And Buffy, realizing this, relinquishes her grip on her past, takes herself by the hand and descends, metaphorically, into her own depths to find her own spiritual power and commitment.

Its at this point, in the depths, that the dragon must be slain, its power released. And the dragon is Buffy. It s Buffy, not the Master, that has been clinging to her own ego, her own little world, hoping to avoid her destiny. It s the little blond girl that has been holding her back. And Buffy, surrendering all the way to this fate, allows her unknown power to slay the dragon that is herself. If you don t come, says the Master, I can t go. You set me free. Visually, this is terrifying. But metaphorically, it s exactly what Buffy went there to do. She s there because her powerful subconscious drives can no longer be contained. She s there to set them free. The Master drinks, and Buffy, in her dress, is let fall, to drink deeply of the waters of the subconscious. This is Buffy s baptism and her confirmation. We have seen in earlier episodes what seemed to be references to Mark, and to the first chapter of John. Both times I emphasized that in--Mark especially, but John tells a similar story-- the spirit of God descends upon Jesus from on high at the moment of his baptism by John the baptist. In Mark, the suggestion is that his divine nature comes to him not through birth or parenatage, but through this ritual act of spiritual commitment. And that s what we see here. Buffy makes an act of spiritual commitment that is in fact a baptism, and is infused with the divine power of that commitment. The Master, tasting of Buffy s blood, is like Siegfried tasting of the dragon. Buffy releases and assimilates her own power, and rises as a new spiritual incarnation, with a new source of power and a new sense of commitment. I feel different, she says. I feel strong.

And like Siegfried, Buffy hears the song of nature. She just knows where the Master is, what he is doing, and she marches off committed to her destiny, no longer doubting herself, no longer fearing the monster. The music cue as she marches off to dispatch the Master is the only time in the show that the Buffy Theme is used as scoring. It s as if the entire first season has been a teaser, but now the real show is about to begin. She is the Chosen One, but now she is also the one who chose.

Since this post hasn t been long enough, let me quickly say that all the other characters play their part in this episode to emphasize this story. I ve mentioned Willow and Giles and Angel. Cordelia is Buffy without spiritual commitment. We find her in a car with a boy, thinking no doubt of worldy things, and yet she displays a sneaking suspicion that there is something out there. And just as in this episode Buffy will commit to her spiritual life, we see this metaphor for Buffy without spiritual commitment make an overture to Buffy s spirit. Cordelia actually asks for Willow s help and offers to pretend to know her in return. Buffy without spiritual commitment is slowly getting pulled into this spiritual realm. Finally, as Buffy goes to face her fear, this symbol of her lack of commitment drives up and saves Willow s life by driving her to the library. And just as Buffy tastes of her subconscious power, Cordelia too takes a bite out of one of these emissaries of the mystery domain. See how you like it, she says.

The episode opens with Xander practicing his lines on Willow. He wants to ask Buffy out. Xander is Buffy s heart, and in a symbol of the egocentric narcissism that Buffy has been exhibiting all season, her heart has a crush on her. She likes herself, basically, as indicated by the yours always bracelet he gave her in Witch. (Buffy s heart will always be aimed at Buffy). Willow as Buffy s spirit, waits longingly for the day when Buffy s heart will turn towards spiritual pursuits, towards her. That s still a ways off. Xander asks Buffy out and she turns him down. Symbolically, I think that s a moment of maturity for Buffy. She knows she must turn outward. Xander is hurt and listens to the music of pain. But when they find out what has happened, that Buffy has gone to face the Master, Xander, reflecting Buffy s courage in so doing, is at his very best. When Jenny Calendar reminds them they have an apocalypse to stop, Xander says, I don t care. I have to help Buffy. This is once again an indication of the deeply personal nature of our spiritual commitments. We aren t just sucked up into some grandiose fight of good against evil. Our spiritual power and depth comes from real commitments to real people we actually know. And Xander knows what he must do. He goes to find Angel, the metaphor for Buffy s desire for this spiritual commitment. Xander enters Angel s place and stands immediately next to a statue. My eastern art isn t up to snuff, so its not clear to me whether it is a buddha or a Tara, but whatever it is, its meant to be seen while Xander delivers his speech, and its hands are in the fear-dispelling gesture. In Buddhism, the first trial (it might have been the second, but for purposes of Buffy we ll let it be the first) of the Buddha is to dispel fear. And that certainly is what Buffy must do as she descends into her subconscious to face the Master. And this dovetails nicely with the first chakra of Kundalini, the idea of overcoming lethargy and fear of change to begin the spiritual journey. Xander, Buffy s heart, is dispelling fear.

Xander says to Angel, I don t like you. At the end of the day, I think you re a vampire. But Buffy s got this big yen for you. She thinks you re a real person. And right now, I need you to prove her right. I think it s a beautiful moment. Xander s expression of love is so mature. I need you to demonstrate that she was right to reject me, he says. He s not trying to get his own back. He wants what is best for Buffy. And at the metaphorical level, it is Buffy herself speaking. Her courage. I m doing it, she says. I m setting my fear aside and bravely starting on this path. I m making the commitment. I m putting my trust in you and dying to this fearful child. Now show me that I m doing the right thing.

And the beautiful part of it all, really, is that Angel has no breath. Xander revives Buffy. It is through facing inward that we find the source of our power. Its not Angel, not our desire for the spiritual calling that reanimates us. It s the courage of our commitment to it that gives us new life and ends forever the world as we knew it.

Apocalypse stuff.

Prophecy Girl is a masterpiece.


The Top Ten Percent (so far)

1. Prophecy Girl
2. Nightmares
3. The Puppet Show
4. Angel
5. Never Kill a Boy on the First Date
6. Out of Mind, Out of Sight
7. I, Robot, You Jane
8. Witch
9. The Pack
10. Welcome to the Hellmouth
11. Teachers Pet
12. The Harvest
13.
14.


[> [> [> Magnificent -- Tchaikovsky, 13:45:00 08/29/04 Sun

As with all great masterpieces, Prophecy Girl reminds me of another quote every time I see it. In reading this review, I'm drawn back to that staple of wedding ceremonies, 1 Corinthians 13:

When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.


I think I understand the link between this passage and the show after reading your review. Which also, of course, has all sorts of little treats, and is a pleasure to read, as they all are.

TCH


[> [> [> The double spiritual breakthrough of "Prophecy Girl" -- KdS, 14:11:15 08/29/04 Sun

Wonderful essay, but there's a postscript I'd like to add to all this concentration on spiritual destiny. Some people, as I see it, miss the fact that Buffy makes two spiritual/philosophical breakthroughs in Prophecy Girl (and one can see why, given that later it would take her a whole season to make just one). It isn't all about accepting your destiny.

When Buffy goes to confront the Master, she's accepting her destiny. But it's that very decision to submit to ancient spiritual authority that turns the Master fully loose and opens the Hellmouth. And Buffy survives because the friend who she shouldn't, according to ancient spiritual tradition, have had and the man she should have killed on sight go to save her.

After accepting her destiny, she goes a step further and rejects it again. Previously, she was rejecting her destiny through simple cowardice. But her death at the Master's fangs and subsequent revival show us that in the Buffyverse, one shouldn't simply accept that ancient tradition and destiny predestine your fate, and ignore the possibility that whoever laid them down might have had an agenda of their own. At the end of Prophecy Girl, Buffy realises that she can reject her Destiny without rejecting her role as hero. And many of her later finest moments are of the same type.


[> [> [> Fascinating, manwitch. Thank you. -- dub ;o), 16:27:26 08/29/04 Sun

I shall keep this along with your (much) earlier post on the chakras as some of my favorite ruminations on the Buffyverse.

And speaking of favorites:

And like Siegfried, Buffy hears the song of nature. She just knows where the Master is, what he is doing, and she marches off committed to her destiny, no longer doubting herself, no longer fearing the monster. The music cue as she marches off to dispatch the Master is the only time in the show that the Buffy Theme is used as scoring. It s as if the entire first season has been a teaser, but now the real show is about to begin. She is the Chosen One, but now she is also the one who chose.

That scene ranks as my favorite in all seven years of the series.


[> [> [> Thank you manwitch! What a great post -- angel's nibblet, 17:33:52 08/29/04 Sun

I now feel the pressing need to go back and rewatch all of Season 1 :-D......


[> [> [> Incredible, thank you... -- Ann, 19:45:31 08/29/04 Sun

for taking us along with you on Buffy's path, showing us all the little corners and twists in her journey through Season 1.

I also think this is one of the best episodes of all seven years and were made even better with these posts.

It can t help but take us there.

So many places in both series use children as a signpost for Buffy and Angel's journey and you capture that in one sentence. Just wonderful.


[> [> [> [> Wonderful as usual... -- Jane, 00:00:36 08/30/04 Mon

Your insights add so much to my enjoyment of Buffy. I've just started rewatching Season 1 (for the upteenth time), and I will have your perspective in mind as I do. Thanks for sharing with us.


[> [> [> Magnificent again. Thanks. -- Sophist, 21:33:32 08/29/04 Sun



[> [> [> Re: Facing Inward (Buffy's Spiritual Journey, 1.12, part three of three) -- Vickie, 09:59:13 08/30/04 Mon

Ok, I'm supposed to be working here!

Thank you. When can we have another?


[> [> [> Please do season two too! Please? -- frisby, 06:16:30 08/31/04 Tue

Very very good, again. Please do season two too???!!!

Where did you learn so much about the seven chakras?


[> [> [> Excellent work -- StarryNightShade, 07:25:02 08/31/04 Tue

I've printed it all off for careful consideration.



Hints for a good Gathering -- LadyStarlight, 09:26:14 08/29/04 Sun

Just in case I missed anyone, here's the latest version of "Hints for a Good Gathering"

LadyStarlight:

1) Balconies are our friends. Okay, they're my friends, but it still counts.

2) Always take Rob along. That way, if a problem comes up, he can make a phone call and say "I've spoken with my lawyer and....". We don't have to mention that his lawyer changed his diapers.

3) Art is fun. It's even more fun if you get to proclaim it "crap" in loud voices and critique it with like minded people.

4) Ann has to bring cookies. Maybe this should be the first law.

5) The best part of the Gathering is just hanging out with each other!

Rob:

6) Make sure that everything is clearly stated in the contract with the hotel in case ahem things that were supposedly physically attached to the room happen to become...unattached. ;-)

7) If something doesn't work out as you planned, don't worry! It will still be a blast, regardless!

8) A Gathering without tiaras isn't a Gathering at all.

9) At least one viewing of Smile Time, and one viewing of Once More With Feeling, in every available language, and both with and without commentary are required by ATPo law.

10) Don't overschedule.

11) This can't be reiterated enough, so it's now the 10th rule, too: Ann has to bring cookies.


Ann:

12. Soft chairs

13. Sing alongs (now we can have phone-in-alongs too given cjl's life)

14. T-shirts per Sheri

15. More cookies.

16. More red wine!

17. Annual dance and slaughter

Jane:

18. Make the head tilt drinking contest an official gathering event.


Anything else anyone wants to add?


Replies:

[> Eat a cookie; ease my pain -- First Cookie, 16:21:02 08/29/04 Sun

19th law: these hints are now part of the official canon and goings on of all past and future Board meets.


[> Oh, Dear Lord. Is my TV appearance going to be ATPo's version of Rocky Horror? -- cjl, 18:54:18 08/29/04 Sun

I can just see it:

[NYC 2005. The entire ATPo Gathering is seated in front of a giant TV screen. Up on the screen, Puppet!CJL answers the telephone.]

PUPPET!CJL: Editorial.
THE ASSEMBLED (drowning out Special Ed): "Hi! I built a vol-ca-no! Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"

[The real CJL is in the audience, but not participating. His chin drops to his chest in humiliation.]

CJL (to MASQ): Kill me. Now.
MASQ: Can't. You have the Shakespeare tickets.
THE ASSEMBLED: "Can I publish it in your magazeeen?"


[> [> Yes - Prop list -- Demann, 19:20:02 08/29/04 Sun

Because I like lists.

-instead of throwing rice I propose cookies
-instead of covering our heads with newspapers, I propose copies of Scientific American. The fold will help it stay upon our heads better anyway.
-instead of shooting water pistols, use vinegar and baking soda mix. Add colour for variety.
-rubber gloves for the messy volcano
-confetti for simulating volcano lava
-toilet paper for those who die laughing
-some toast for the red wine that will follow
-instead of noisemakers, have our friends all call us simultaneously to get the phone rings. Yes this will require some planning, put heck we are smart.
-helmets of course, some of us may rotfl
-pens for editing
-pocket protectors for said pens
-DNA molecules would be a nice touch
-a chair for the scientist from the future who will make a surprise appearance
-lastly, fossils from Chile

Any others?


[> [> [> Costumes! -- Masq, 09:48:50 08/30/04 Mon

It's not the CJL Horror Picture Show without costumes.

I think I still have my sequened top-hat and tails from my high school days.



 

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