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Why Giles was acting weird in season 7- Or back to begining jokes about Giles being knocked out -- heywhynot, 17:22:00 08/18/03 Mon

I have finally realized why Giles was acting weird in season 7. Forget bad writing, dropped plotlines, Giles having issues in his relationship with Buffy/his place in the world. Watching Gingerbread again, I realized what happened to Giles. He is brain damaged!

Think about it how many times was he knocked out over the course of seven seasons. Heck way back in season 3, the knockout count was high enough for Cordelia to make one of trademark quips. Think by the time he is knocked out again in Season 7, he is not the Giles we knew. He has many screws loose. They were rattling around in his brain!

There you go! Giles is like Troy Aikman in that hummna, hummna commercial. Case closed ;)

[> Re: Why Giles was acting weird in season 7- Or back to begining jokes about Giles being knocked out -- Claudia, 11:23:55 08/19/03 Tue

Giles had not really changed one bit during the show's seven-year run. During the show's entire run, the audience is viewing Giles from Buffy's POV. During those early years, he seemed more competent than he actually was. Giles' character wasn't badly written during Season 7. We only now seeing Giles from an adult Buffy's POV. She, like the rest of us, are now realizing that Giles was not the perfect Watcher we all believed he was. After watching episodes from Seasons 1 to 5, I can see that Giles has not really changed at all. His dream in "Restless" is a sure sign of how Giles would like his relationship with Buffy to be. And how much better off she is without his "authority".

[> [> Re: Why Giles was acting weird in season 7- Or back to begining jokes about Giles being knocked out -- heywhynot, 14:17:22 08/19/03 Tue

I mostly agree with what you are saying.

I posted about Giles having a few screws loose because I have been rewatching episodes daily on FX and you quickly realize just how many times Giles has been hit on the head. Given the number of complaints on here about Giles in Season 7 (being written off as poor writing by some but not all), I thought I would give a humorous reason that ties into a running gag that were the first fee seasons of Buffy, Giles being knocked out.

I would say that Giles was acting different in Season 7. The Council was destroyed which gave him his direction in life & his connection to his father. You also have him dealing with the fact his "daughter" is growing up and is in fact now an adult, never easy on a parent. Plus then you have the First which Giles doesn't actually believe you can fight let alone beat (see his comments from Amends). Many parents draw hope from their children, Giles is no different. Just in season 7 he was really in the dumps and it took alot to get him out of it IMHO.

[> [> [> Giles - From An Adult's POV -- Claudia, 15:05:11 08/19/03 Tue

[I would say that Giles was acting different in Season 7.]

I don't know if I completely agree with that. I believe that the reason Giles strikes us as negative, this season is due to the fact that Buffy is viewing him from an adult POV, instead of a teenager's.

When viewing Giles from an adult POV, we can see that he really wasn't that hot as a Watcher, as we had originally perceived him to be. And looking at his behavior in previous episodes, I noticed that he has not really changed over the years.

[> [> [> [> Re: Giles - From An Adult's POV -- heywhynot, 17:07:27 08/19/03 Tue

I don't disagree with Buffy's view changing of Giles as she grew. Of course she was going to see him in a less idealistic way, no longer glossing over the negative.

As you indirectly state, Giles is a Watcher. Giles though is just not a Watcher. He is Buffy's dad, the gang's uncle, a historian, a musician, a rebel, etc. According to the council in season 3, Giles is not a good Watcher because he is more than a Watcher to Buffy. As the season's progressed, we and Buffy got to see more and more of that. In Season 7, we went back to the beginning, Giles as a Watcher and the rest was buried. That aspect was put once again to the fore because it was the role in which Giles felt safe. The Watcher aspect is what we saw in season 7, he gave into his role. Which is why you see the sparkle in his eye, the return of his warm smile upon hearing of Buffy's plan to activate all the potentials. He was full of hope again, he cast off the role and could be a full person again.

[> [> [> [> [> There's a way both can work very well together: -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:11:42 08/19/03 Tue

Namely, rather than Buffy's POV changing as the rest of the world changes, the rest of the world changes as Buffy's POV changes. Buffy perceived Giles in a different light in Season 7, so he started behaving in a different light (showing little sentiment towards anyone, going behind Buffy's back to kill Spike (he never did so with Season 3 Angel or Season 4-5 Spike)). As Buffy's view of the world changes, so the Buffyverse must change to fit it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy/Giles estrangement -- sdev, 18:12:08 08/19/03 Tue

Giles did abandon Buffy at a very bad point in her life in Season 6. That could also change her POV about him, especially because of the father figure issues. Of course I wonder what prompted him to leave at such an inopportune time. (The blows on the head theory sounds plausible to explain Season 6 behavior)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy/Giles estrangement -- heywhynot, 19:00:14 08/19/03 Tue

Giles left because he had to leave. Buffy was not dealing with life, using Giles as a crutch. At a certain point parents must let go and let their children go out on their own. You can't save a person from depression by enabling them. Giles as a parent had to leave otherwise he would of kept enabling. Giles knew himself. Didn't mean he didn't care or that he couldn't come back, like he did at the end of season 6. You can't do everything for people you care about, you have to let them make mistakes. It is a tough thing to realize and even tougher to carry through. I respected the character more for leaving. You could tell it hurt him. He was her dad, not her Watcher then. Season Seven he was back not as her dad, confidant, but as in his role as a Watcher.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I see it differently -- sdev, 19:26:47 08/19/03 Tue

I don't think you just walk away when someone is in trouble. And that is what he did. There are ways to help people to help themselves, sometimes incrementally. He himself admitted it was a mistake at the end of Season 6, Grave.

GILES: Can you forgive me?

BUFFY: For what?

GILES: I should never have left.

BUFFY: No... You were right to leave. We're just... stupid.

GILES: I know you're all stupid. I should never have abandoned you.

BUFFY: No. Giles, you were right about everything. It *is* time I was an adult.

GILES: Sometimes the most adult thing you can do is ask for help when you need it.

He just never said why he left given his later reasoning.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- heywhynot, 04:27:34 08/20/03 Wed

I see it more as he felt guilty because he cared. Just because you feel guilty doesn't mean you were wrong in your actions. Buffy needed room to be an adult. In the lines you quote she even realizes this. Giles by his very nature knew if he stayed he would of kept helping Buffy in ways that would of been enabling her to avoid adulthood. Were there ways someone could of stayed and not of enabled Buffy, yes. The point is that Giles the parent couldn't help himself & he knew it. It was the only time in BtVS that Buffy was without any parental figure for any length. Joyce and/or Giles were always around in Sunnydale and for a few summers she was with her father. Part of growing up in our society for many young adults is having time away from their parents and making mistakes.

It is not like Giles totally left Buffy. All she had to do was make a phone call to ask for help (ie admit she had a problem). With Giles there she never had to admit she really had a problem.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- sdev, 08:11:14 08/20/03 Wed

She really got dumped on by life. She was how old? She had to a)financially support her family, b)raise her teen sister, and c)be the slayer. And she had no payable work skills.

Those responsibilities, without any other issues of her depression, were deserving of help. Depression itself also deserves some attention, not abandonment.

Giles by his very nature knew if he stayed he would of kept helping Buffy in ways that would of been enabling her to avoid adulthood. Were there ways someone could of stayed and not of enabled Buffy, yes.

That may be true, but that doesn't make him either a good parent or a good friend. It makes him a person capable of extremely limited responses. Wood was able to help her by giving her a job. Was that enabling or constructive?

I do believe that Gile's comments, which I quoted, were an admission of his mistake, which he corrected by returning and staying.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- heywhynot, 11:17:18 08/20/03 Wed

Buffy's biggest problem in the first half of season 6 was connecting with life and being an adult. She had to grow up. Giles helped her out alot once she cameback. There reached a point where Buffy though was taking advantage of Giles so that she did not have to deal. Buffy was not made for retail and that was pretty much all Giles could offer her job wise (working at the Magic Box under Anya). She wasn't opening up to him, but relying on him to take care of everything. To raise Dawn, to pay the bills, deal with the finances, etc. Giles if he stayed would of done it all which would of stunted Buffy's growth & he knew it. Buffy was avoiding life. A parent must let go and let their children deal with life without jumping in all the time unless the child asks or things spin of control. Buffy never asked. Giles showed up because Willow spun out of control.

Giles wasn't helping Buffy deal with things. He was doing them. If he stayed on some level he would of kept doing them for Buffy. In terms of depression you can't help someone who is depressed unless they want help and Buffy did not want help.

It should be pointed out that we are left to believe that Giles left again for England with Willow after the events of the season 6 finale. Giles did not stay. He doesn't return until episode 10 (Bring on the Night). Wood gave Buffy a job after she was no longer depressed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- sdev, 16:42:06 08/20/03 Wed

Since the model is parental behavior, let me put it in those terms-- would Joyce have left? Or would she, or another parent, have found a way to help Buffy to help herself? Parents usually do not just pull out. And this concept of enabling does not quite fit in. Enabling what? Depression?

Also enabling is not quite fair since much of Buffy's dependence was born of youth, inexperience and responsibilities beyond her age and abilities suddenly dumped in her lap. Ultimately what Buffy struggled and failed at was her responsibilities as parent and head of a household. She needed a life teacher not just a Watcher.

Giles wasn't helping Buffy deal with things. He was doing them. If he stayed on some level he would of kept doing them for Buffy.

You are right. But why did it have to be that way? I actually do not see Giles as much of a father figure. Giles had no children. He probably did not know how to be parental. He left because he was just a Watcher not a parent.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- heywhynot, 18:02:34 08/20/03 Wed

It wasn't the depression Giles was enabling, it was enabling Buffy to avoid responsibility, being a parent to Dawn, being a parent. Usually children leave the nest. If he was just a Watcher he would of stayed. Watchers, watch their charge. He was reinstated as her Watcher by the Council. He wasn't acting as a Watcher when he left. He was acting as someone who cared for Buffy.

No one knows how to be a parent with their first born. Would of Joyce of left? Probably not, but when Joyce was alive and healthy, Buffy was away from home. She left the nest on her own. Joyce became ill, Buffy grew and took on a great deal of responsibility. Within a short period of time after coming back, Buffy went back to being a teenager. Giles did not pull out, he gave Buffy space to be an adult. Parents have to do that. It is tough. That is what good parents do. It is not easy going from a child to an adult. He was always available for Buffy if she asked for help. She never did.

Parents who pay their kids taxes, auto insurance, etc. once the kids are in their 20s are doing their kids a disservice. I have friends whose parents are like that and those friends tend to be more needy & act more like they are still in high school (I am in grad school).

Buffy was more than capable of dealing with things. She did not use her skills but choose to hide from life, to stay in the shadows. Buffy's dependence was born out of choice.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- sdev, 19:20:51 08/21/03 Thu

Parents who pay their kids taxes, auto insurance, etc. once the kids are in their 20s are doing their kids a disservice. I have friends whose parents are like that and those friends tend to be more needy & act more like they are still in high school

I don't disagree with you on this. I do think there are steps in between all or nothing. Being in England was pretty much nothing--unavailable. Giles was not even avilable via email from what we know of his computer aversion. Telephone is very limited and costly. She did ask for help-- she begged him not to leave. He acknowledges that in the text I quoted earlier.

I don't agree that Buffy taking on responsibility when Joyce was ill was the same as what she was required to do after Joyce died. I am not sure that she regressed in her assumption of responsibility after she returned. The level required got upped after Joyce died and she came home to face piles of bills and a teenager to raise. No one helped her, except for the occasional babysitting.

And she is not like a first time parent because it was not her choice to have a child and she did not grow into it by raising an infant. She inherited a teenage child slightly younger than herself.

Honestly I don't think Buffy was "more than capable of dealing with things." Why would she be. She already had her hands full just taking care of herself as a person and the world as a Slayer. She had no parenting or job skills, and to top it off she was depressed. No wonder she screwed up. And in the end Dawn sort of raised herself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see it differently -- heywhynot, 07:44:00 08/22/03 Fri

Everyone did help out. Giles did help. Buffy took advantage of the help Giles was providing in order to avoid the responsibilities. Giles paid off the bills out of his own pocket, he ran the house, disciplined Dawn & Willow, encouraged Buffy to engage the world. As he admited is he stayed he would kept doing that. Buffy had more than enough resources, brains, etc. to do the job. Buffy is more than capable but she is her own worst enemy. Like in many battles, Buffy lacks the self-confidence. Usually in the battles she is forced to realize that is can do it and does so. Buffy has to believe in herself. When she does, she can beat Gods, change the world, etc. Buffy needed to apply those lessens to life itself. She needed to believe she could do it, because that was all that was holding her back. Giles staying made it so Buffy never had to believe in herself because Giles would take care of everything. He cared too much. The events of Once More With Feeling forced him to see his presence was limiting Buffy. If he did not leave then, he wouldn't of left at all and Buffy would of never grown up.

Buffy at the end of season 6 realizes she was not acting like an adult:

BUFFY: No. Giles, you were right about everything. It *is* time I was an adult.

GILES: Sometimes the most adult thing you can do is ask for help when you need it.

From Tabula Rose:
Buffy: I can't do this without you.
Giles: You can. That's why I'm going. As long as I stay you'll always turn to me if there's something comes up that you feel that you can't handle, and I'll step in because, because... Because I can't bear to see you suffer.
Buffy: Me too. Hate suffering. Had about as much of it as I can take.
Giles: Believe me, I'm loathe to cause you more, but this... I've taught you all I can about being a slayer, and your mother taught you what you needed to know about life. You... you're not gonna trust that until you're forced to stand alone.
Buffy: But why now? Now that you know where I've been, what I'm going through?
Giles: Now more than ever. The temptation to give up is gonna be overwhelming, and I can't let-
Buffy: So I won't! No giving up. You can be here, and I can still be strong.
Giles: Buffy, I've thought this over... and over. I believe it's the right thing to do.
Buffy: You're wrong.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy/Giles estrangement -- Claudia, 12:53:20 08/20/03 Wed

[Season Seven he was back not as her dad, confidant, but as in his role as a Watcher.]

And I think that was the mistake. Buffy really didn't need a Watcher. She never really needed one since the end of Season 3. Giles knew this by the beginning of Season 5, when he first tried to leave. But when the First Evil began its attacks - against potentials, watchers and the Watcher's Council, Giles saw his world tearing apart, and tried to reassert himself back into Buffy's life as Watcher and authority figure. He did not count on Buffy finally learning to assert herself as an adult. Naturally, they were bound to clash. All it took was for Giles to realize he could no longer be a parent figure or Watcher to her. But that he could be a friend, and a close one, at that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and jobs -- Brian, 09:13:31 08/21/03 Thu

Buffy had lots of martial arts skills. I always wonder why she and Spike didn't open a dojo in the back of the Magic Shop? And think of all those possible perks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: There's a way both can work very well together: -- heywhynot, 18:49:47 08/19/03 Tue

Buffy does change the world because of her POV but not in some mystic way, but because she is a revolutionary. Her POV did change because she was no longer growing up, she was a young adult in season seven. That is a funny time between parents and children as they were trying to deal with their new relationship. Of course, Buffy and Giles were dealing with way more, like the death of young girls, the end of the Watcher's Council, the army of the First coming, and the possible end of the world. Both Buffy and Giles turned to roles to deal, loosing parts of themselves in the process. Buffy's inner strength and brilliance though saved them both and thus the world.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was talking more on a "that's how they mold the show level" -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:08:23 08/19/03 Tue

Wherever Buffy's POV is in their gradual developement of the character, they model everything else in the Buffyverse to fit this.

[> [> [> [> [> Giles in Earshot -- Ames, 16:18:43 08/21/03 Thu

It's probably true to say that it was Buffy who changed, not Giles. But there was always a fundamental trust there which I think had some of its roots in Earshot. Remember that everyone else was literally running away from ESP-enabled Buffy to hide betraying thoughts that they didn't want her to hear (well, aside from Cordy, who didn't care). Only Giles was unaffected, and Buffy's temporary mind-reading ability got nothing from him except concern for her. What more solid foundation could there be for long-term trust? That's why his rare betrayals of trust surprised her and hurt her more than any others (esp. Helpless and Lies My Parents Told Me).

[> Re: Why Giles was acting weird in season 7- Or back to begining jokes about Giles being knocked out -- Q, 11:34:00 08/19/03 Tue

I posted this same theory in a review of season 3 episodes I posted on another board-- complete with the Troy Aikman reference :)

I've been re-watching every episode this summer, and I've been keeping a running tally of Giles' knockouts.

In Gingerbread, when Cordelia asks, the answer is "13". That was his thirteenth knockout!

The show must have realized that this was out of hand, because he goes a LONG time before getting knocked out again. Number 14 doesn't happen until season 6, in Flooded.

[> [> Re: Why Giles was acting weird in season 7- Or back to begining jokes about Giles being knocked out -- heywhynot, 19:03:50 08/19/03 Tue

Didn't he get knocked out in Buffy v. Dracula?

Still 14 times before season 7 is a large number. He must have some sort of superpowers. Extra thick skull, super-healing abilities or something. Or a great deal of luck and a even better neurologist.

[> [> [> An even better power . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:32:23 08/19/03 Tue

. . . regular character status. This allows him to survive scenarios that would leave most other characters dead.

Also, I don't think Giles was knocked out in BvsD, just nuzzled by three vampire chicks.

[> [> [> [> Re: Giles on his head -- Brian, 07:58:53 08/20/03 Wed

In Buffy vs Dracula:

Cut to Giles in another part of the castle. He tries a door and it opens. He steps into the darkness beyond and falls off a ledge to the floor about eight feet below.

GILES: Oh, good show, Giles. Uhh... at least you didn't get knocked out for a change. (Turns over on his back with a groan)
GILES: Oh ... oh, ladies.

[> [> [> [> [> That is why I was thinking of him being knocked out -- heywhynot, 11:22:14 08/20/03 Wed

I knew there was a connection between 5.01 and Giles being knocked it and there it is.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That is why I was thinking of him being knocked out -- skpe, 06:48:09 08/22/03 Fri

If Giles is brain damaged from all the times he was knocked out what about Zander. By my count he got boncked twice as often as Giles

Willow vs Holland -- JBone, 20:11:47 08/18/03 Mon

Ah, yes, Drusilla. You're quite right! This was originally a bomb shelter in the '50s. We had it converted. Wine has always been my... passion.

http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html

Post comments at the voting site, here, or email them to me.

[> Re: Willow vs Holland -- BMF, 20:40:03 08/18/03 Mon

Depending on what happened during her latest visit to the colorist, Willow would either wack Holland senseless with the nearest hard object or bind him between two lightposts (not many trees in LA, as I understand it) and slowly turn his skin into a Kali-esque fetish garment. Either way, it won't be much of a contest. And if she borrows Christina Aguilera's hair again...oh boy! Next victim, please.
-BMF

[> As I've said before, Holland gave my all-time favorite Buffyverse speech... -- cjl, 21:00:43 08/18/03 Mon

The Elevator Ride to Hell (howzat for Random Capitalization, HonorH?) is a high water mark for Joss' universe, and Sam Anderson nailed that speech to the wall, a perfect, (un)living example of Hannah Arendt's principle of the banality of evil. Wolfram and Hart was never the same without him. It's tempting to think that Holland could handle a pissed off Willow, having sold his soul to true darkness--but we all know that if Willow came looking for a one-on-one battle, Holland would prefer to stay in Hell. Where it's safe.

[> Holland Manners: Just another victim... -- ApOpHiS, 21:15:23 08/18/03 Mon

to the Engine of Death men call Willow Rosenberg. Holland was cultured, intelligent, experienced, and obviously well-versed in the ways of darkness, but at the end of the day, he was just a pawn, a lackey of greater and darker beings. Willow, on the other hand, has been courted by the darkness on several occasions. The beings that pull Holland's strings obviously see great potential in young Miss Rosenberg. Even if Holland found some way to stand up to Willow's raw power, his masters would order him to take a dive to further their cultivation of the dark and thorny rose that is Willow's soul.

[> [> Agree -- KdS, 06:37:14 08/19/03 Tue

Willow wins, but at what cost? Snicker.

[> Re: Willow vs Holland -- Celebaelin, 22:16:11 08/18/03 Mon

Since there's absolutely no possibility that Willow will not win this one I'm witholding my vote until such time as I may yet again be wrong in my prediction. I could vote for Holland Manners I suppose but that would just be silly.

[> Willow. No contest. -- HonorH, 22:37:05 08/18/03 Mon

Good or bad. Holland miscalculated himself to death with Darla; there's no reason to believe he could stand up to a pissed-off Willow.

[> Magic schmagic -- d'Herblay, 00:19:58 08/19/03 Tue

Don't piss off a lawyer.

[> [> Pfft! Lawyer Schmawyer -- Pathfinder, 17:53:50 08/19/03 Tue

Sure, they talk a good game, with all their "whereas's" and "party of the first part's". Indeed, they might even make more than a few of their co-workers wish they could flay themselves alive just to get a ticket out of certain over-long meetings. But best Sunnydale's perkiest power-mongerer? I'll be putting all my money on Ms. Rosenberg.

[> Re: Willow vs Holland -- MaeveRigan, 06:21:43 08/19/03 Tue

This one's not even going to be close, but my comments, FWIW: Holland, evil lawyer from hell. Willow, the most powerful white witch in the world. She no longer fears her power, she no longer requires any of the usual "dark magic" props. Back to hell with you, Mr. Manners, Esq. Willow, Willow, Willow.

[> How it might happen -- Gyrus, 11:51:27 08/19/03 Tue

[SCENE: A corner office in a high-rise building resembling Wolfram & Hart's offices. Behind an ornate black desk, HOLLAND MANNERS sits in his shirtsleeves, poring over a huge stack of papers. Sweat stains are visible on his shirt, and droplets of perspiration occasionally fall from his brow onto the papers. Through the two large windows behind him, we can see rising flames and hear distant screams of torment.]

[We hear a door open.]

WILLOW (offscreen): Excuse me. Are you Holland Manners?

HOLLAND: Ah, Miss Rosenberg. Please come in.

[WILLOW enters.]

HOLLAND: (still looking down at his desk) Have a seat. I'm just finishing up some paperwork. Well, not really finishing, since I'm doomed to go over these soul contracts and sign them in triplicate for all eternity, but I can afford a short break.

[WILLOW sits down, fanning her face with her hand.]

WILLOW: Kind of warm in here.

HOLLAND (nodding): I'm told the air conditioning has been broken for about thirty-five hundred years. (Looking up from his papers) Coffee?

WILLOW: No, thanks.

HOLLAND: Well, let's get down to business. I understand we're supposed to fight?

WILLOW: Um, yeah. To the death.

HOLLAND: Tricky, since I'm already dead.

WILLOW: Not a problem.

[WILLOW's eyes go black, and her voice becomes husky.]

WILLOW: I've got magics even a citizen of Hell can't comprehend. Dark incantations beyond your worst imaginings. Spells that will obliterate your soul!

HOLLAND (leaning forward, excited): Really?

WILLOW: Yes! And now you will feel- Waitasec. (WILLOW's eyes change back to normal) You WANT to be obliterated?

HOLLAND (suddenly nervous): Oh, no, no, not at all.

WILLOW: You totally want to be obliterated!

HOLLAND: I do not! (Stands up and raises his fists awkwardly.) Come on, let's, um, let's get it on! I'll wipe the floor with you, you, ah, crystal-wearing hippie!

WILLOW: Nuh-uh. No soul-destruction for you, manipulative lawyer-guy. (She gets up and heads for the door.)

HOLLAND: (Desperately) Oh come on! It's miserable down here! Endless filing, twenty-six-hour workdays, and the coffee room only has that white powdered stuff for cream! You have to destroy me!

WILLOW: See ya.

[WILLOW exits and closes the door behind her.]

HOLLAND: Crap!

[Cut to commercial.]

[> [> Re: How it might happen -- Celebaelin, 15:59:29 08/19/03 Tue

W: I go to darker places than you have ever known just for the day trip.

HM: Oh

[> One question -- Diana, 12:23:59 08/19/03 Tue

Why is Holland a lower seed than both Gavin who was lower than him at Wolfram and Hart and Lily who is just pathetic? Shouldn't the match-up really be Willow and one of those two losers? Not like Holland would have stood a chance against Dawn or Giles, but I am curious why he is the lowest seed in the Wiccan region.

Just a question. I mean everyone knows that Willow will win. That is what happens with first versus sixteenth seeds.

[> [> from the rules & stuff page -- Jay, 16:09:57 08/19/03 Tue

rules & stuff

...I should add that the 15 and 16 seeds of each bracket are there because they won a playin vote.

My Scoobies (circa Season 6) -- Sheri, 20:43:52 08/18/03 Mon

Blissfull she felt, as she was finally complete,
Unsuspecting that her friends would not cope.
Flinching at the cruelity of the world before her.
Failing to connect with those who brought her back.
Yerning to be in heaven once more.

Willing the elements to do her bidding
Ignoring the pleadings of her gentle lover
Lurching between powers so dark and doing what's right
Lovers united and torn apart
Only a fool enrages the witch
Wishes he now that his skin would grow back

Goodbyes are sometimes needed, he says with a sigh
Injuring them all; off to England he flies.
Let my departure make you stronger, he hopes
Even as grief wraps around their throats like ropes
Secret powers from Earth's charms gleaned, he does return

Tenderly she supports her friends in their worst times
Agonizes that she could not do the same for her lover
Returning repaid with white hot pain
Anguished, her spirit watches the distruction

Xenophobia is his baser reaction to oddness he encounters
Asking his fiance with a trembling shudder
Now is that how your demon face looked?
Disgusted he feels at himself for having spoken
Ended in heartbreak their romance will soon be
Redeeming himself through love for his friend.

Down, down, untethered and unguided she goes
Angered and hurting that her descent is ignored
Wondering if anybody cares at all
Nicking small trinkets to replace the love she seeks

Anguished, the ex-demon weaps.
Never shall her wedding day be complete
Yowling to her mentor to make her strong
Avenging spirit she becomes, once more.

A question about Acathla (spoilers for Becoming 2) -- ApOpHiS, 01:20:52 08/19/03 Tue

I was reading the Annoted Becoming 2, and something occured to me: they never showed us what happened to Acathla after Angel went to Hell. What did the gang do with Acathla, if anything? One assumes they didn't just leave him/it there, since we never saw it in season 3 while Angel was living (unliving) in the mansion. Then again, maybe he just stashed it in the attic or something.
If not that, then what? Did the Scoobies rebury Acathla? Did they smash him/it to bits? Could they? You'd think ME would remember that they just left a demon capable of sending the whole world to Hell sitting around for any sqatter or psychopath to find.

[> it was never shown -- luvthistle1, 01:42:41 08/19/03 Tue

.....Buffy left right after her battle with Angel/angelus. It's never stated what happen. we know that once Acathla was awaken, buffy had to use the sword given to her by Kendra to stop him, and send Angel to hell.

There were a couple of things that puzzle me about that episode.

one is: When Buffy told her mom that she was a vampire slayer, did she also tell her the truth about Spike?

two is: If only Angel's blood could call "Acathla",even though it is suppose to be his destiny to stop this from happening, without Angel turning into "Angelus", none of it would have happen, so was he destine to turn into "Angelus" as well?

[> [> I think I can answer -- Angeloz, 03:09:55 08/19/03 Tue

Question 1: When Buffy told her mom that she was a vampire slayer, did she also tell her the truth about Spike?

I don't think she did & as proof when Spike came back in season 3 (Lovers Walk) Joyce didn't know Spike was evil or probably a vampire. Nor did she know Angel was "good" either. I suspect Buffy & Joyce before this episode didn't discuss anything about Angel or Spike. However I suspect they did after that episode. First Joyce didn't react to Angel when he admitted to being a vampire in Enemies also she presumedly knew in The Prom when she gave Angel her advice to leave Buffy for her own good.

Question 2: If only Angel's blood could call "Acathla",even though it is suppose to be his destiny to stop this from happening, without Angel turning into "Angelus", none of it would have happen, so was he destine to turn into "Angelus" as well?

There is more than one possible answer, first I suspect it isn't & wasn't only Angel's blood that could release the sword. Now it may be that any demon's blood could do this. Also since vampires aren't pure demon (human host) it's even more interesting. Now if true I wouldn't be surprised if both Angel/Angelus could do it. In other words he could do it with or without the human soul. I'll note his blood did close it when he had the human soul. Although Buffy closed the rift in The Gift instead of Dawn. However because of what Whistler said something like when the portal opens his blood had to close it. So I suspect whomever opens the Acathla portal only their blood closes it & they get sucked into some sort of hell.

Also if it was only Angel's blood that could open it (which I doubt) then he could of been abducted so the ritual could occur. It happened before in What's My Line? Part 2 for the ritual to restore Drusilla. Now the reason why I doubt that only Angel could open it is he's a vampire, I grant you without a human soul extremely evil. The only thing that's special is he had gained & lost a human soul at the time. Which is probably unique. But I think it had nothing to do with the Acathla ceremony. Also more importantly it would mean the Acathla ritual would only work for him & only him. Which is stupid also since it was in Latin I presume the ceremony is old & probably older than him so unless the spellcastor was extremely prescient then why have it in the first place just so it can be used for one being (of course they would of been evil or at least morally questionable).

In other words I think the spell was a general spell. Now it might be for only demons or part demons. Or for murderers or to be even more precise killers (including self-defence or defence of others type killing) which Angel with a soul would qualify.

Although Giles did imply it was Angel's blood that was important but he didn't mention the others. Also Whistler didn't know Angelus was the one to instigate the opening of the portal although he knew Angel would close it or at least implied it. I think others have speculated he may have read a prophecy or maybe he had visions or was given some information by someone else. If he was given info then it may have been need to know or limited.

I'll admit I never expected to write so much on this.

Angeloz

[> [> [> Re: I think I can answer -- LittleBit, 17:47:30 08/20/03 Wed

Actually, my impression was that it required Angelus' blood because he was the one summoning Acathla. If it had been Dru or Spike doing the summoning, then it would have been their blood that was rewuired. The first attempt didn't work because Angelus was using the blood of a victim, rather than his own.

[> Giles sent it to the Watchers Council as an early chistmas present -- Angeloz, 03:15:37 08/19/03 Tue

Was that too western of me? Although technically I don't live in the west. Also since they celebrate christmas in Japan it isn't necessarily "christian." Also atheists celebrate it as well.

Angeloz

[> I'm using it as a paperweight on my desk right now. -- ZachsMind, 06:59:24 08/20/03 Wed

CWDP timestamp? -- pellenaka, 04:43:46 08/19/03 Tue

I was just wondering if anyone (writers or Joss) has given an explanation as to why there was a timestamp in the beginning of Conversations With Dead People.
According to some of the calculations I've seen, among other things, Andrew had been unconscious for three weeks or so and Buffy has apparently been awake for just as long because it's suddenly Christmas.
I was hoping that we would get an explanation to why time went wonky but just like the Beljoxi's Eye, this was just dropped.

[> Re: CWDP timestamp? -- CW, 05:16:56 08/19/03 Tue

As I recall, the timestamp was simply the correct time that the moment in the episode would be seen in most of the country including California to give it immediacy.

[> [> Re: CWDP timestamp? -- Claudia, 09:37:09 08/19/03 Tue

I do not understand this question. I thought that the episode, "CWDP" occurred before Christmas? And that it occurred over a period of one night? I also thought that two episodes went by - "Sleeper" and "Never Leave Me" before Giles first appeared in "Bring On the Night". And both "Sleeper" and "Never Leave Me" occurred over a period of several days.

[> "Works in theory..." -- Darby, 08:18:13 08/19/03 Tue

Apparently, even though the show has more-or-less existed on the real world's timeline, sort of, that only works if the passage of time is very much in the background. The time-stamp seems to be an example (and Season Seven is rife with them) of some detail that seemed a neat idea at the time, but which had ramifications that later had to be dealt with (Buffy & Giles' Christmas conversation) or ignored (some of the "open" time gaps between episodes had to have been pretty wide, during which nothing significant could happen).

This year, and to some extent Season Six, was worse than earlier ones at riding the timeline background - in earlier seasons, it was obvious that the characters were hanging out and talking to each other (remember how comfortable Riley/Buffy & Xander/Anya got, even though we only actually saw them together once or twice? That led to Riley's "But she doesn't love me" confession, very important), but for two years, even folks cooped up in the same house only seemed to interact during our 43-minute window on them.

Slinking away now...Grrr....arrgh....

[> [> "I'd like to test that theory." -- ZachsMind, 10:03:19 08/19/03 Tue

"I'd like to test that theory." ...Actually, I just liked the quote as it kinda echoed Darby's message title. In all honesty I wouldn't want to test any temporal physics theories with the series beyond what I discussed in an earlier post. BtVS may not hold up under such scrutiny. And it's NOT just "Season Seven [that] is rife with them." For example.

In season two, in late February of 1998, Angelus kills Jenny. Giles seeks vengeance, but then the momentum fizzles. A week later Buffy gets sent to the hospital, then about two months later a dead student haunts the school. About a week after that Xander joins the swim team. Then around the middle of May, Buffy finally decides to do something about Angel. We are left to assume these are the highlights. That nothing happened between February and May. Nothing substantial that changes the course of events. I would imagine any fanfic exploration would be difficult to do between those months, if they involved Giles and Angelus in the same room, or in any other significant way.

There are other concerns too. Sometimes dissecting BtVS temporally brings about tiny glitches. Other times it brings up very intriguing possibilities. Amy was a relatively powerful witch, yet she did nothing remarkable between Feb. 10, 1998 and Jan. 12, 1999? She must have been up to something, but we just didn't see it on screen cuz it had nothing to do directly with Buffy. I've always wanted to know why The First Evil didn't show up after Dec. 15, 1998 until 2002. Curiously, that coincides roughly with the time Amy was a rat. What if Amy accidently, unwittingly, or perhaps even purposefully summoned The First? Maybe Amy wanted to go evil in a big way, but they got interrupted when she became a rat. Then after she became a human being again, she picked up laboriously where she left off. It would explain quite a few things, like how Amy knew Kennedy was a Potential, and why The First seemed to be lacking in strategic skills.

I also like to imagine somewhere in the time frame, Amy and Jonathan had a brief dating relationship, but they broke it off cuz he talked geek and she smelled like yak cheese. But that's probably TMI.

[> BtVS immediacy and Temporal Physics in the WhedonVerse... -- ZachsMind, 09:17:27 08/19/03 Tue

Generally, one can assume what happens in any given episode is happening as close to "now" as possible. "Now" being the original air date of the given episode. Whedon likes to give an immediacy to the proceedings for first run viewers.

This means Buffy Summers arrived in Sunnydale on or around March 10th 1997, and it took her roughly three months to learn about, locate, and ultimately defeat The Master. She then had a summer away from Sunnydale spent with her father that was largely uneventful, returning September of 1997 to her junior year of high school with her friends. She sends Angel to hell in May of 1998. He comes back after a summer away in hell for a century. And on and on. Temporal physics are a cruel mistress in the Whedon Universe.

We are led to assume that unless it's physically impossible, the show we watch occurred in Buffy's world on roughly the same day/night/week/whatever. Although the Halloween episode was broadcast on October 27th, we might be able to assume it actually occurred on the 31st, since there are references to the story occurring on Halloween itself.

This is why at one point in season six Buffy said with a shrug, "Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." Cuz whenever crap hits the fan for Buffy, it's usually on or around Tuesday, the night the show regularly aired on UPN. It's an inside joke, where the suspension of disbelief is stretched for purposes of amusement. If this is the case, it's feasible that Buffy would begin to see this trend. It's also why Buffy cautions Wood in season seven that the hellmouth has a semi-annual tendency to blow up, and things get most crazy and reckless usually near May. Things are usually relatively quiet over the summer. Fanfic and comic books notwithstanding. It should also be pointed out that almost every season (at least every other season) there's an episode where Buffy's birthday is either celebrated or otherwise mentioned. This is generally the first or second episode in January.

Now there are times when this is physically not possible, like if in the story it's made very clear Dawn's off school for the weekend or if the story that week takes place over more than one day and night. When that happens we're probably to assume that at least one of those days is as close to that Tuesday as possible. This is not to say things don't happen the rest of the week, but we get mostly the highlights. It's assumed by M.E.'s writers that nothing of any substance happens the rest of the week. If you're really trying to pin down things between episodes it's gonna get kinda difficult, because we are to assume that what happens in "Chosen" happened in or around May 20th, even though the events at the end of "End of Days" (broadcast a week before) must be physically immediately before that, due to the cliffhanger kiss. There's other little inconsistencies like that, throughout the series, but for the most part the writers and producers try to make every episode "real time" as best as possible, to give a stronger feel of immediacy and suspense to the proceedings.

This is not necessarily a tip of the hat to continuity. In fact it's more of a Nyah to continuity. It's generally something the M.E. writers use only when it's appropriate to the story. For example, Bring On the Night was shown to take place around Christmas, predominantly so we could go back to that same Christmas place where she originally found the Harbingers back in Amends. It was almost poetic how that worked out, bringing things full circle - stuff that had been in the works since season three - season two if you count Jenny's involvement.

The focus is on the story. Whedon firmly believes in telling a story for each episode but also make that story part of a greater arc that can last several episodes or entire seasons. And there's multiple stories happening simultaneously. Temporal concerns are utilized to structure the framework of the stories, and in so doing there should be no conflicts, but I'm sure there would be occasional glitches if forced to undergo close scrutiny. That's to be expected. If one were to attempt a timestamp on one plot arc, they might find that this causes some other time arc to appear unsyncable. Sometimes, series dissection can reveal what some would see as continuity errors and others would dismiss as necessary to tell the story.

[> [> Yeah, but... -- pellenaka, 11:34:48 08/19/03 Tue

...there was no real purpose for the timestamp. I understand the Jossverse isn't necessarily at the same point in time as we are but when there is a big sign that says 'November 12th, 2002', one would assume that it's the date on the TV screen. Just like when you see a show like 'JAG' (military) and it has these little signs that tells us the date and sometimes the place.
At one point it's November 12th and suddenly it's "Almost Christmas". If the timestamp in CWDP hadn't been there, I wouldn't have problem with it but just have dismissed it as "Well maybe the Jossverse is further ahead in time". But there is more than a couple of days between November and December.
As I see it, it seems as if someone thought that this was a very special episode that needed at timestamp for some reason.

[> [> [> Air dates, etc. -- Nino, 12:02:31 08/19/03 Tue

The orignal air dates of those eps were:

"CWDP": Nov. 12
"Sleeper" (which happened the same night at CWDP?): Nov. 19
"Never Leave Me": Nov. 26
"BOTN": Dec. 17

So we are to assume a good amount of time passed between Spike being captured at the end of "Never Leave Me" and "BOTN" which is kind of a stretch, because the Ubie was released and then...what, hung out for awhile? Not that it really bothers me...and any time early in December might be considered nearing Christmas, so that gives the events of "BOTN" a decent window of time to have happened...possibly before the 17th.

As far as the timestamp on CWDP, I think it was just to show that the convos were all happening at the same time...this was all going down on the same night. This gave the episode more continuity because each character had their own individual scene...so it made it more cohesive in my opinion. Not to mention, this was a very unique ep, and I think they were trying to stress that as well...plus, I thought it was just cool.

[> [> [> [> Another idea.. -- ZachsMind, 14:52:12 08/19/03 Tue

It may have been an attempt at making fun of shows like JAG or Law & Order or X-Files which put timestamps on their shows sometimes. It could have been a sort of injoke with the M.E. staff. They did a similar injoke with a scene just before a commercial break in "Him." Remember when they broke the screen into fourths and showed what Anya, Buffy, Willow and Dawn were each doing at allegedly the same exact moment? This was a parody of the tv series "24." Not a very good parody, actually but it was one nonetheless. Or perhaps one could call it an homage?

[> [> [> [> [> Titles and things -- Nino, 15:40:29 08/19/03 Tue

But why is this the only ep with the title at the beginning? I'm pretty sure shows like "ER" display the title...so why not "Buffy", a show whose fans know episodes by name anyway...woulda been nice...am i wrong?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Titles and things -- Seven, 19:31:28 08/19/03 Tue

I suppose that this is an issue of taste.

Personally, i enjoyed CWDP a lot. One of the reasons was because everything about it screamed that this was the beginning of the main season arc.

This happened on Angel too in Apacalypse Nowish and in plenty of other Buffyverse seasons. (Suprise, S2 buffy for example). Plus, this was a very good episode. It explained a lot about Buffy's mental state as well as Willow's, as well as Spike's (the 3 featured characters of the season I(not only)MHO.)

All in all, it was one of ME's "very specaial episode of" eps and being the last one, maybe it was appropriate.

Don't go crazy thinking about why they did it this way.

Just enjoy. (i say this tongue in cheek, i don't wanna come off snooty)

7

Talisman in 7x01 (spoiler Lessons) -- Cynicor, 05:54:50 08/19/03 Tue

Watching Lessons again I was trying to work out who/what put that talisman in the bathroom that summoned all those dead guys. I was juggling the idea that it was Wood, perhaps testing the Slayer? Was this ever resolved/decided?

PS. I still think that Wood was better when he had that whole brooding thing going. At the very least he had more motivation and background than Caleb. (Anyway ignore this last bit.)

[> The potential suspects... -- ZachsMind, 11:37:53 08/19/03 Tue

Spike. Under the influence of The First, had full run of the school in the night hours.

Amy. I believe she had *something* to do with The First, and she has no known alibi.

Principal Wood. It's well-known he was under the influence of The First. If he could be tricked into burying Jonathan, he certainly could be tricked into dropping a trinket in the ladies' room.

Giles. You know what he's like when he's reading. Thoughtlessly bangs into walls and loses track of time. He had his nose in a book, and absent-mindedly picked up a remnant of the destroyed magic shop, wandered into the ladies' room, realized where he was, dropped everything and ran back ..oh yeah. He was in England. Well! It was a VERY thick book!

Xander. Work with me here. In season four he was working construction at the college, and fell into a native american burial place with totems and all kindsa thingies. One of them may have attached itself to the inside of his pant leg, and held fast there for three years until he wore the same pair of pants one day to the high school construction. And it just fell off while he was.. in the... ladies' room... Okay that one's a bit of a stretch.

Cassie. Hey, she thought it was pretty. Then she just accidently misplaced it.

Maggie Simpson. You KNOW she killed Mister Burns! I wouldn't put anything past that little brat!

[> [> I always thought it was Spike....but that Maggie Simpson theory sounds pretty good -- Nino, 11:45:17 08/19/03 Tue

[> [> The First didn't make Wood bury Jonathan -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:42:16 08/19/03 Tue

He probably just did that to cover up for the obviously supernatural elements surrounding Jonathan's death. Demon fighters have a very strict secrecy policy.

[> [> Re: The potential suspects... -- RadiusRS, 21:53:15 08/19/03 Tue

Amy had the means and the knowledge, and in "The Killer in Me" made the statement that she had made a choice between sides, echoed in the very next episode, word for word, by Ashanti's character when she said the First had come to her. Amy let the cat out of the bag when she referred to Kennedy as a Potential, another indication that she was aligned with the First. And I have my suspicions that Willow's spell in "Same Time, Same Place" was another side effect of the hex she admitted to putting on her in "TKiM". I always liked the character and thought she deserved more of a send off than her appearance in "TKiM", seeing as how she was in the third episode, and every season except the fifth one (she had a brief yet hilarious cameo in the 4th); my theory is that they're setting her up to be a major nemesis to Willow in whatever spin-off is in the future, which is part of the reason that plot thread was left dangling.

[> [> [> Last night watching "Touched"... -- ZachsMind, 06:42:44 08/20/03 Wed

Last night watching "Touched," I imagined the scenes between Caleb & The First as if Elizabeth Allen (Amy) were playing The First instead of SMG. Whether or not this was the intent of Whedon, it could work. One could imagine Amy in some warehouse somewhere outside Sunnydale doing the mystical equivalent of telepresence. Remember in season six when Warren told Jonathan not to be a geek, and he had that stupid virtual reality helmet on his head? I'm imagining Amy doing something similar to that. Casting a spell that allows her to appear like anyone she wants to be, provided they're dead, and extending a visual representation of herself as an "avatar" elsewhere from where she is. She can see and hear but she can't touch, taste or smell. She'd also have access to the memories of all the big bads, which means if she needed anything on the technical side to make the magic work, Adam & Warren could provide that. Knowledge is power and it's all about power.

I would have preferred they figure out The First was Amy, than the much more ambiguous and vague ending that we got. "Chosen" was perhaps the end of Buffy's story, but it left everything else so much in the air. The more I think about it, the more I wish THIS was Mutant Enemy affiliated. The story should continue, just not with Buffy in the center. In fact, it outgrew her two years ago.

(OT) Witch Hunter Robin- anime in the vein of BTVS -- neaux, 06:03:24 08/19/03 Tue

a great new anime comes out on DVD this october called Witch Hunter Robin. This might interest some folks. It definately has interested me.

here is the website

[> looks good -- MsGiles, 07:05:25 08/19/03 Tue

I found one called 'Blood the last Vampire' at my video rental shop a couple of weeks ago, which was kind of vampBuffy as played by Toshiro Mifune in a school uniform. Lots of intense brooding and katanas. Do you know if there are any more in this series? The website just referred to the one film.

[> [> Blood just got licensed for a live action movie -- neaux, 07:56:57 08/19/03 Tue

as with every anime these days.. a live action version of Blood is in the works.

Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- ZachsMind, 12:37:52 08/19/03 Tue

Because we can't get any more episodes of Buffy (and honestly I don't see why they just can't hire new actors to play all the roles and pick up where they left off. I mean really this is television - they do it on soaps all the time, don't they?) I've taken to perusing half price book stores and buying Buffy paperback novels. It's embarrassing. Imagine. I'm a thirty something male walking up to the counter with books that have Sarah Michelle Gellar's face branded on the front cover. Makes me feel like Giles in a Chuck E. Cheese pizzaria. But I must have my fix.

Fan fiction works at times, but it's not portable. Unless I bothered with printing it all out and that's too much like work. I also tire of wading through the bad fan fiction to find the good fan fiction. Say I'm reading something and it's going well and then all the sudden Angel and Buffy are making googly eyes at each other. *shiver* Or worse! Spike and Xander! Slash is not always properly notated, and I am not into shipper fiction. I prefer plot. Call me crazy but I like my stories to, y'know, have a story.

I've written some fanfic myself. When I read my own stuff, I want to gag. I suck. So I've decided to see how the Big Boys do it. Answer? Not much better, so far.

The first one I picked up is called "Halloween Rain" by Christopher Golden. This was a turd. It's a quick read. I think I managed it in 3-5 hours give or take. I was interrupted a lot. The story took place in the same time period as the "Halloween" episode in season two and was obviously written prior to season two altogether. I recall no reference to Spike, Dru, Ethan Rayne, Oz.. I don't even think Angel showed up come to think of it, tho he may have been mentioned in passing. It's definitely an alternate reality story, with several inconsistencies throughout the piece. However, there are some nice moments between our core foursome. The author got the voices of Xander, Willow, Buffy and Giles down pretty well. Unfortunately the narration read as if Buffy were telling the story in the third person. "BuffySpeak" should not be incorporated into the narrative. It's painfully jarring.

Further, it introduced a concept that when it rains on Halloween, scarecrows come to life and become something that killed a Slayer long ago. Very apocryphal. And very hokey. Jack O Lanterns that bite at Buffy's trendy yet inexpensive boots? Hello? It also went on the assumption that there are cornfields behind Sunnydale cemetaries. I've never seen a cornfield in BtVS. X-Files maybe. Zombies straight out of a Tom Savini movie, complete with a predisposition to raw brains. Very unBuffyish. As we learned from Dead Man's Party and The Zeppo, zombies only eat your brains if they're instructed to do so by their masters. If they don't have a master, they just continue living their lives relatively as they did before, albeit a bit dumber and more reckless than before cuz they're dead now, what's the worst that can happen?

So although "Halloween Rain" gets the ambiance of the BuffyVerse down well, and Golden hears the voices of the Scoobies well enough to get them down on paper, I'd have to give this effort a D. Even for a teenager (to whom this work seems to be written for) there are times when it feels one's being almost talked down to. I'm looking for work that simultaneously takes the world more seriously and has lots of fun with it.

The book I'm reading now is a bit further in the right direction, but not by much. This one's also written by Christopher Golden, along with Nancy Holder, and I'm only about one third through it. It's called "Child of the Hunt." Thicker than the previous mentioned work, with a slightly better writing style (still lets the narrative slip in with the BuffySpeak), this work seems to be geared towards a wider audience that might actually include the likes of me. Two of my favorite things get combined in this book: Buffy and renaissance faires. Guilty pleasures of mine. However, unfortunately Golden insists on operating under the assumption that just because this is a modern horror action spoof romance comedy drama, ren faires naturally have to be evil. Ren faires and clowns. Of course they're evil. This automatically ruins the fun for me because I happen to like ren faires. Even the ones that ARE evil and there ARE a few but they're bad in a good way.

Cultural references abound in this piece. Sometimes Xander's humor sounds far too forced, but the narrative actually confronts that. We're visiting the BuffyVerse at a time when Xander's particularly self conscious about his place with Willow and Buffy. He sees his place as being the comic relief so he's purposefully trying to make them laugh at every turn. So it comes out forced and stilted but it's in keeping with Xander's character. It could also be that the author couldn't think of enough funny things for Xander to say. I'll have to remember that gimmick-- er, ah, feature regarding Xander's character. Could come in handy someday.

We got Oz and Angel in the mix here, as well as Cordy. The relationship between Cordy and Xander is painful to read through, but then I never understood what those two saw in each other. Willow and Oz are properly cozy and adorable without being saccharine sweet. Oz says very little. Xander says too much. So at least the characterizations are tolerable. Buffy and Angel are perpetually not-so-together-but-can't-help-wanting-to-be-together-tho-they-know-it's-wrong. It's a thing. So everyone's paired up except for Giles, who has some sort of subplot with an alcoholic policeman that recently lost his son, and Buffy has some homophobic amusement at his expense there which seemed midldly disturbing given how she takes Willow's revelation in season four that she's gay, but the author couldn't have known about that yet.

What did the author know though, and where did he plan on putting this tale in the chronology? Runaway behavior abounds in this story, perhaps still reactive to Buffy's canonical running away in the summer before season three. It's difficult actually for me to pinpoint exactly when this one takes place in the timeline. It's some time around season three. Xander worries about no guidance counselor even bothering to talk to him about college, and Willow has realized she wants to go to college as far away from her parents as possible. There's no mention of Faith so far, or the mayor. It's gotta be after the summer though, because Joyce has made reference to Buffy's running away. So it's after Dead Man's Party. Angel's back from hell, so it's after Revelations. Spike is not in the picture so it could be before Lover's Walk. Actually, I think it was supposed to be some time early in season three, before Christmas but after Angel came back. However, the author apparently had not been told about various developments - predominantly Faith. So actually this novel doesn't fit anywhere in the continuity.

Further, the novel operates on the assumption that Giles would be cognizantly aware of his neighbors. There's no evidence in the canon that this is the case. Giles is far too much of a loner to befriend neighbors, especially those which drink heavily and whine about runaway children. Giles does not actively seek out angst in others because he's got enough to go around, buried inside his tweed jacket. I'm only a hundred pages into this thing, but come to think of it, I can't find a lot good about this one either. Maybe it'll get better.

So. Read any good books lately?

[> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- Seven, 13:48:25 08/19/03 Tue

The only Buffy book that i have read or have even really come across was "Oz: (Predictably subtitled) Into the Wild."

The story takes place after he leaves WIllow following the drama with Veruca and before he returns claiming he has found a cure.

I enjoyed the story very much. I love the character of Oz and it was great to get into his head a little. The 3rd person omniscient doesn't get too far in though, as part of Oz' charm is not knowing.

We get some good backstory on Oz' adventure to Tibet and what transpired along with a good deal of action. Bear in mind though that this is an Oz story, the Scoobies only make a brief cameo from afar as they are looked upon by a certain season 2 werewolf hunter.

All in all, if you think that an Oz story can fill your needs, go get it and enjoy, but you seem to need a scooby fix, so i don't know if this will help.

Try it anyway, it's pretty enjoyable and a quick, fun read.

7

[> [> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- ZachsMind, 14:27:47 08/19/03 Tue

Oz is one of my favorite characters, and the reason why I started watching Buffy originally. I'd be much more interested in an Oz spinoff than a Faith spinoff. So I'll keep my eyes peeled for it. Thanks!

[> Faith was absent in a lot of Season 3 -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:09:09 08/19/03 Tue

There were plenty of episodes where she would be gone, and only occasionally would these eps contain a reference to her. So that second book may be in fitting with this.

[> Try "Shakedown" -- amber, 15:23:04 08/19/03 Tue

Shakedown by Don DeBrandt is by far the best book I've read set in Joss's world. It's actually an Angel novel featuring Angel,Cordy and Doyle in early season 1 Angel. Loads of action, plot, unique villians who actually have personalities, an Angel Vs. Angelus fight (before it was done on the show) and an accurate portrayal of our main characters. I've actually met the author a couple of times at local cons and he's a fan of the show, so the books coming from someone who knows and appreciates what Joss has created.

I've read a number of Buffy books and was never really pleased by the efforts of Christopher Golden (he usually makes the characters too violent) or Nancy Holder (who tends to stick in so many cameoes by dead/minor characters (Ethan, Kendra, etc.) that the story becomes unbelievable.

The best Buffy fiction is that which comes from the ME writers; try the Tales of the Slayer graphic novel that was written by show writers and Amber Benson, or Fray (the future slayer comic written by Joss Whedon.) which is coming out in graphic novel format in November. Also, I haven't read them yet, but I hear the Tales of the Slayer novels have several good short stories.

[> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- jane, 22:19:10 08/19/03 Tue

I've read a number of Buffy Books; most are just fairly light reading, not strong in characterization and/or plot. A couple I would recommend are the Tales of the Slayer, Vols.1&2, collections of short stories about various slayers throughout history. I did like Christopher Golden's "The Lost Slayer", one of his better Buffy novels.

[> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- skpe, 08:42:40 08/20/03 Wed

Pretty much agree with your revues think I liked 'Child of the hunt, a little more than you did .Because it
Appeared to try and tie in the buffy universe with another genera that I like, the 'Borderland '
(for those who are not famelure with this genera it started as a 'shared universe searies ,like 'Thieves World', edited by Terri Windling .the stated premise is elfland meets rock and roll).
But mostly the books make me reapreciate the great cast that BTVS had. even the best of the stories
Are flat and colorless without SMG, AH and JM delivering the lines.

[> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- purplegrrl, 15:04:20 08/20/03 Wed

I've read most of the Buffy and Angel novels based on the two series. Some are so-so, while others are very good. Also, some of the novels (such as "Halloween Rain") are aimed at the "young adult" audience, while others are geared more toward an adult crowd.

I happen to like Christopher Golden and Nancy Holder's work with the characters. Also Jeff Mariotte and Yvonne Navarro. I think they have a way of handling the characters that brings a little more to them.

My favorites include:
"The Gatekeeper Triology" by Golden and Holder
"The Unseen Trilogy" - Buffy/Angel crossover with lots of subplots
"Pretty Maids All in a Row" - Spike and Dru background
"Revenant"
"The Lost Slayer" (I read it when they were releasing it in installments and could hardly wait for the next book.)

I'm currently reading "Seven Crows", a Buffy/Angel crossover that includes Riley and Sam. Nobody said fighting demons and the undead was easy!

[> [> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- btvsk8, 22:52:00 08/20/03 Wed

I' agree with Pretty Maids all in a row, though reading it after seeing season seven may be odd seeing as it has a similar "destroy the slayer line" plot. In a way it is not very "Buffy" due to being in a different time, location and the absence of most of the main characters, but i actually prefer this as it means it is less likely to grate and conflict with the show itself.

[> [> "Seven Crows" -- purplegrrl, 10:44:03 08/21/03 Thu

I finished "Seven Crows" last night. Good story. A sort of a "ripped from the headlines" story with the addition of vampires and other assorted evils. A couple of the situations are a little unreal even for fantasy. But I can suspend my disbelief pretty well. (Just ignore the line where Angel takes a deep breath.) Riley and Angel did manage not to pummel each other. ;-) The very last line of the book is a hoot, but you do have to be familiar with the words to Don McLean's song "American Pie" to get the joke/paraphrase.

That said, I try not to get too hung up on whether or not the novels follow "canon" or not. Once in a while you'll read one that is a little off the map and the characters don't quite ring true. I just go on to the next one. I like the stories/authors that give a little different insight to our favorite characters, the stories that make you go Hmmmm. I also like the stories that let me learn something new about a different culture or historical era, or present faux-history as if it could have really happened (like Umberto Eco did in "The Name of the Rose").

[> [> [> Angel breath.. -- ZachsMind, 13:59:53 08/21/03 Thu

Vampires do bring air into what was once human lungs and breathe out. They do what we would normally call breathing. In fact, they habitually do it because though their host body is technically dead, they're still unconsciously used to it so they often just sorta do it. What they breathe out is not necessarily toxic, but it's also not particularly healthy either. It may or may not have a smell. I doubt Buffy would be into kissing vampires if they had bad breath. However, the air they exhale may or may not be suitable for CPR, which is where this misconception came from.

The real reason why this happened is because of this.

Angel told Xander that Angel couldn't practice CPR. He didn't go into detail as to why, saying only that vampires "have no breath." This is obviously a lie, because vampires have to exhale air in order to speak. So they DO breathe. They just don't HAVE to breathe. They can spend a summer under the ocean in a pine box if they have to. Breathing is a luxury. There's no conversion of oxygen to carbon dioxide. The air may or may not go out exactly as it goes in. There's very little love lost between Xander & Angel, but at least for Angel's part, there is respect. He knew Xander was in love with Buffy. Angel knew Buffy was in love with him. By him I mean Angel, not Xander. Angel has also known since day one that he's no good for Buffy, try as he might. However he wants what's best for her. Angel also knew Xander needed that moment. He needed to be the hero. Angel's been around the block a few times. He's had his chance to be a hero. And a villian. He's played the bit parts too. He knew Xander needed to be the hero more than he did, so he stepped back. He let Xander save her.

If Xander wasn't there, would Angel have at least TRIED CPR? Would it have worked if he tried? We may never know for sure.

[> [> [> [> OR to put it another way (quote from The Matrix) -- ZachsMind, 14:06:38 08/21/03 Thu

Morpheus: How did I beat you?
Neo: You're too fast.
Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place?

You think that's air you're breathing now?

In the movie The Matrix, Morpheus was showing Neo that when inside the virtual reality of the machines, one's senses are being fooled. In reality one is never away from the chair they were in when they jacked into the matrix. One has to breathe in reality, sitting in that chair. One doesn't have to breathe inside the matrix itself. It's an illusion.

Vampires "breathe" because it's like. Habit..? It's something they just sorta do cuz the undead body was once human and is accustomed to it. However if they think about it, they don't have to breathe, and this can be used to their advantage. For the psyche of someone like Angel or Spike, it can also be just taking one step further away from their humanity.

[> [> [> [> Re: Angel breath.. -- purplegrrl, 13:24:58 08/22/03 Fri

Yes, but in the show they make a point of having the vampires state that they don't breathe or don't need to breathe. "Prophecy Girl"; the episode with the invisible girl when Giles, Xander and Willow are trapped in the basement; and Spike has made several references to "no breath" are the ones I can think of right off the top of my head.

And yes, I understand the physiological aspects of requiring air to be forced through the voice box/larnyx so vampires can speak. I'm not talking about taking a deep breath so Angel can yell at the top of his lungs [OK, pretty out of character for Angel ;-)]. The line in the book was simply a dramatic gesture. The line could have been left out and the story would have been fine. (Or Angel could shrugged or pounded something or looked extra broody.)

[> Pretty Maids All in a Row; Immortal and Tales of the Slayer(s) -- Sofdog, 11:58:50 08/21/03 Thu

I've reviewed most of these at Teenreads.com or Phase 5(bibliora.com).

"Pretty Maids All in a Row" is a Spike/Dru-centric World War II story by Golden. The writing could be better but the plot and storytelling is pretty awesome. You gotta dig the Slayer they're up against. The ending to the show actually seemed to take it's premise right from this book. Maybe that was unintentional, but the 'kill all the Slayers' idea was still here first.

"Immortal," I actually didn't like the Season 2 Buffy story so much as the flashbacks to the 16th century Italian Slayer who last took on the main villain. But that aspect was pretty well done.

"Tales of the Slayer", Vol. 1 and 2 and "Tales of the Slayer" graphic novel. In general, all of these collections are worthy. There are definitely some clunkers, but the great stories make up for it. In Vol. 1, the first story "A Good Run" is just really well written and poignant. There are some fascinating explanations on the different lifestyles and natures of Slayers (and Watchers) as well as the Call to power. And with the graphic novel, Joss Whedon wrote the first and last stories. The first one expounds on the origin of the first Slayer and the last one ties the collection into the Fray series and gives nods to the other Slayers including Buffy.

You have read "Fray," yes? Finally all 8 issues are in print so do have a look at that. The final BtVS episodes were very gratifying for those of us who kept up with "Fray."

[> Re: Buffy Book Reviews (the more the merrier) -- malaise, 13:34:46 08/21/03 Thu

I recently finished "Child of the Hunt". Like you, I noticed some problems with the narrative. I think the authors were trying to slip around between the different characters' speaking styles and personalities as the story moved around. The two problems I had with this were (1) it got muddled in scenes between multiple characters, and (2) nobody can do "Slayerspeak" up to the level of the real writers, and often the book would have been better off with simply less attempted wit.

As for the story: I liked the collision of the Ren Faire with the Hunt. The idea of these two disparate elements meeting each other in Sunnydale is pure BtVS, and would have been worthy of an episode or three, IMO. I am reminded of, e.g., "Bad Eggs", which culminates in a three-way fight between Buffy, the Gorches, and the huge eye creature and minions.

This was my first Buffy book, and I found it somewhat jarring to see my favorite characters through someone else's eyes. They seem a bit too juvenile, compared to the series.

As for the setting, it must be early third season. The authors knew Angel was going to be back, and that his relationship with Buffy was going to be strained, and that the other two couples were going to be together, but perhaps nothing else.

I read "Child of the Hunt" because it looked like one of the more adult of the Buffy books. Are there other Buffy books that would be considered more adult?

-Mal

[> I'll second The Lost Slayer -- Ames, 16:04:31 08/21/03 Thu

The Lost Slayer (Christopher Golden) was fun reading, though it didn't have a lot of depth. The excursion into the future provided the story with some scope that wasn't squeezed into a brief period between TV episodes.

The Book of Fours (Nancy Holder) really had too much plot and too many characters jammed into too short a book. It was confusing, and changing the viewpoint between characters too much didn't help. Not as satisfying a read as The Lost Slayer, but it could have been good if it was expanded and the frenetic pace slowed down a bit.

I wasn't really thrilled with Pretty Maids All In a Row (joint effort of CG and NH). I guess it got the Spike/Dru vibe down pretty well, but they're not my personal favorite couple, and I just didn't find the story all that interesting (in spite of the plot similarities to S7).

Like a lot of fans, I'm looking for something to carry on the magic from BtVS now that it's over. I'm watching Angel more, and trying some of the books and "graphic novels". My opinion so far is that the books are all lightweight works of fiction - exactly the sort of thing I expected to find in books based on a TV series (I say "expected" because I've never tried any before), and therefore a bit of a disappointment compared to the fantastic TV series.

The graphic novels (comic books) work better - they are better suited to telling the type of story that might make up a single episode of the TV series. The artwork is erratic, with each illustrator having their own style - some better than others.

My dream is that a really fine fantasy author will sit down one day and write a Buffyverse book the way a book should be written. I don't particularly want them to fit the story into the cracks between episodes in the TV series - I'd much rather they started in an open-ended direction and let it take them where the story goes. I say this as an avid reader of fantasy and science fiction books (maybe 5000+ to date?) who understands just how enjoyable a truly great work of fiction can be.

[> Child of the Hunt is slowly winning me over.. -- ZachsMind, 21:49:44 08/21/03 Thu

It's been slow to warm up to, but I'm about 150 pages into it now, reading it a few minutes at a time here and there because the week's been kinda busy. When the soul hunters did their first run through Sunnydale. That was exciting. Angel rushing into Buffy's bedroom and making sure she didn't get seen because y'know if you're seen then the soul hunters TAKE ya. So he's practically sitting on Buffy and then he turns around and tells her what he's seeing. Then he goes, "My soul is my curse, they can't take it away, but they can take yours." So that was a good moment. Then a bit later Buffy's thinking about the night before and she goes:

It wasn't supposed to be like this. She wasn't supposed to be afraid of the dark. The dark was supposed to be afraid of her.

Nice. I liked that. I still don't think Golden and Holder have Cordy's voice down very well, but the others sound good in my head. There's still hope for this book.

I'll uh, keep y'all posted. =)

What the hell is an Orpheus? -- Seven, 13:59:46 08/19/03 Tue

Ok

There is a lot of talk down at a lower discussion (help masq) about Wes wanting to perform an Orpheous with Liliah. I thought Orpheous was a mystical drug. I saw the episode with the title, but i'm not getting the refference. Are we joking that Wes wants to have sex with her or be with her, using the feeding ritual that vamps use to absorb orpheus as a delivery or are we actually insuating that Wes wants to have Lilah and himself take Orpheus to somehow (of which is totally unclear to me) free Lilah of her post-mortum contract?

Please help

7

[> Re: What the hell is an Orpheus? -- ponygirl, 14:11:28 08/19/03 Tue

There are many versions of the Orpheus myth, this is one of the shortest :) It's from Encyclopedia Mythica:

Orpheus was the son of Calliope and either Oeagrus or Apollo. He was the greatest musician and poet of Greek myth, whose songs could charm wild beasts and coax even rocks and trees into movement. He was one of the Argonauts, and when the Argo had to pass the island of the Sirens, it was Orpheus' music which prevented the crew from being lured to destruction.

When Orpheus' wife, Eurydice, was killed by the bite of a serpent, he went down to the underworld to bring her back. His songs were so beautiful that Hades finally agreed to allow Eurydice to return to the world of the living. However, Orpheus had to meet one condition: he must not look back as he was conducting her to the surface. Just before the pair reached the upper world, Orpheus looked back, and Eurydice slipped back into the netherworld once again.

Orpheus was inconsolable at this second loss of his wife. He spurned the company of women and kept apart from ordinary human activities. A group of Ciconian Maenads, female devotees of Dionysus, came upon him one day as he sat singing beneath a tree. They attacked him, throwing rocks, branches, and anything else that came to hand. However, Orpheus' music was so beautiful that it charmed even inanimate objects, and the missiles refused to strike him. Finally, the Maenads' attacked him with their own hands, and tore him to pieces. Orpheus' head floated down the river, still singing, and came to rest on the isle of Lesbos.

Orpheus was also reputed to be the founder of the Orphic religious cult.

[> It's probably a reference to Orpheus and Eurydice -- s'kat, 14:12:26 08/19/03 Tue

The drug Orpheus is based on a Greek myth about a ministral who falls in love with a mysterous woman named Eurydice.
Eurydice is killed and goes to hell or Hades realm.
Orpheus goes through all sorts of tests to get her back, literally journeying to hell in the process. His music wins over Persephone (Hades' bride) causing her to feel something she hasn't felt in ages, human affection, so she convinces HAdes to let Eurydice go back with Orpheus.
Hades agrees under one condition - Orpheus not look at Eurydice until the exit Hades realm. Orpheus fails and Eurydice is sucked back into the underworld.

The myth has been featured in numerous movies: Black Orpheus, The MAtrix Reloaded even had a character named Peresphone who the hero must generate a feeling in - in order to get the key, and now the drug Orpheus which causes one to experience a death like state.

Wes performing an Orpheus with Lilah means he would journey to hell to free her.

[> What the hell an Orpheus is -- ZachsMind, 14:19:06 08/19/03 Tue

Except for the fact Lilah lost her head, I don't see much comparison between her and Orpheus. Could she sing? I don't get it either. This is a quick summary of Orpheus. It's a greek myth and a love story of sorts.

Orpheus[or�fEus, or�fyOOs] Key in Greek mythology, celebrated Thracian musician. He was the son of Calliope by Apollo or, according to another legend, by Oeagrus, a king of Thrace. Supposedly, the music of his lyre was so beautiful that when he played, wild beasts were soothed, trees danced, and rivers stood still. Orpheus married the nymph Eurydice. When Aristaeus tried to violate her, she fled, was bitten by a snake, and died. Orpheus descended to Hades searching for her. He was granted the chance to regain Eurydice if he could refrain from looking at her until he had led her back to sunlight. Orpheus could not resist, and Eurydice vanished forever. Grieving inconsolably, he became a recluse and wandered for many years. According to some legends, he became a devoted follower of Dionysus and introduced that god's cult in many places, but the women of Thrace, offended by his inattention, tore him to pieces. Another legend says that Orpheus taught the Thracian men to worship the sun (Apollo) above all other gods; in revenge Dionysus caused the wives of the Thracian men to murder their husbands and tear Orpheus to pieces. It was said that his head was thrown into the river Hebrus and floated, still singing, into the sea to the island of Lesbos, where an oracle of Orpheus was established. He was celebrated in the Orphic Mysteries.

For more information:

Genealogical Guide to Greek Mythology
Unsolved Mysteries

[> Thanks guys, that helped a lot! -- Seven, 14:52:25 08/19/03 Tue

[> Since I think it was my reference that confused you. -- Tyreseus, 18:38:37 08/19/03 Tue

I'll just add that the above summaries of the myth of Orpheus are pretty much what I was getting at. We've discussed on the board how the Faith/Angelus story arc was loosely based on the Orpheus myth. I think that if Wes were to continue to try and save Lilah from the torments of damnation ("Eternal flame isn't eternal if it actually burns anything"), it would similarly echo the classic story of a hero journeying to the underworld to bring back his love.

Two other particularly good (in my subjective opinion) remakes of the Orpheus legend are "Moulin Rouge" and in Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" graphic novels.

OT: Can any of you poetry enthusiasts help me? I'm stuck! -- Marie, 16:27:24 08/19/03 Tue

Some old friends have asked me to read something at their son's wedding, and I'm not really into romantic verse. You know how, when you think you'll buy a "funny" birthday card, and the more you read the less funny they become? Well, that's what's happening to me as I troll through the poetry books! Everything looks too damn soppy now!

Can anyone suggest anything? Something you've heard at a wedding? Websites with wedding poetry? The couple concerned aren't religious - it isn't a church wedding. Something humorous about marriage's ups and downs, maybe? (NO pun intended!)

Help!

M

I can't tell you how tempted I am to read them Spike's little speech on love!!

[> Well... -- Nino, 17:09:44 08/19/03 Tue

I know its Biblical, but the Corinthians reading on love is one of my favorites...not too religious either...kinda cliched I know (its the love is patient, love is kind one) but still a classic, which will be read at my wedding, should I ever get married.

[> Some (mostly unsuitable) suggestions -- Tchaikovsky, 02:40:12 08/20/03 Wed

My first thought when you mentioned weddings was Grave's, 'A Slice of Wedding Cake', but I suspect you might leave your audience utterly bemused:

A Slice of Wedding Cake

Why have such scores of lovely, gifted girls
Married impossible men?
Simple self-sacrifice may be ruled out,
And missionary endeavour, nine times out of ten.

Repeat 'impossible men': not merely rustic,
Foul-tempered or depraved
(Dramatic foils chosen to show the world
How well women behave, and always have behaved).

Impossible men: idle, illiterate,
Self-pitying, dirty, sly,
For whose appearance even in City parks
Excuses must be made to casual passers-by.

Has God's supply of tolerable husbands
Fallen, in fact, so low?
Or do I always over-value woman
At the expense of man?
Do I?
It might be so.
Robert Graves

Then there's my favourite love poem, although the use of the word 'faithless' in the second line might not go down all that well in a Church wedding: here's Auden...

LAY your sleeping head, my love,
Human on my faithless arm;
Time and fevers burn away
Individual beauty from
Thoughtful children, and the grave
Proves the child ephemeral:
But in my arms till break of day
Let the living creature lie,
Mortal, guilty, but to me
The entirely beautiful.

Soul and body have no bounds:
To lovers as they lie upon
Her tolerant enchanted slope
In their ordinary swoon,
Grave the vision Venus sends
Of supernatural sympathy,
Universal love and hope;
While an abstract insight wakes
Among the glaciers and the rocks
The hermit's sensual ecstasy.

Certainty, fidelity
On the stroke of midnight pass
Like vibrations of a bell,
And fashionable madmen raise
Their pedantic boring cry;
Every farthing of the cost,
All the dreaded cards foretell
Shall be paid, but from this night
Not a whisper, not a thought,
Not a kiss nor look be lost.

Beauty, midnight, vision dies:
Let the winds of dawn that blow
Softly round your dreaming head
Such a day of sweetness show
Eye and knocking heart may bless,
Find the mortal -world enough;
Noons of dryness see you fed
By the involuntary powers,
Nights of insult let you pass
Watched by every human love.

Then there's Victoria Wood- but you'd have to sing:

Freda and Barry sat one night.
The sky was clear. The stars were bright.
The wind was soft. The moon was up.
Freda drained her cocoa cup

She licked her lips. She felt sublime.
She switched off Gardeners' Question Time.
Barry cringed in fear and dread
As Freda grabbed his tie, and said:

Let's do it!
Let's do it,
Do it while the mood is right!
I'm feeling
Appealing.
I've really got an appetite.

I'm on fire
With desire.
I could handle half the tenors in a male voice choir.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

But he said:

I can't do it.
I can't do it.
I don't believe in too much sex.
This fashion
For passion
Turns us into nervous wrecks.

No derision!
My decision�
I'd rather watch The Spinners on the television.
I can't do it.
I can't do it tonight.

So she said:

Let's do it!
Let's do it,
Do it till our hearts go boom!
Go native,
Creative
Living in the living room.

This folly
Is jolly.
Bend me over backwards on me Hostess trolley.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

But he said:

I can't do it.
I can't do it.
Me 'eavy breathing days have gone.
I'm older,
Feel colder.
It's other things that turn me on.

I'm imploring:
I'm boring.
Let me read this catalogue on vinyl flooring.
I can't do it.
I can't do it tonight.

So she said:

Let's do it!
Let's do it,
Have a crazy night of love!
I'll strip bare.
I'll just wear
Stilettos and an oven glove.

Don't starve a
Girl of a palaver.
Dangle from the wardrobe in your Balaclava.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

But he said:

I can't do it.
I can't do it.
I know I'd only get it wrong.

Don't angle
For me to dangle.
Me arms 'ave never been that strong.

Stop pouting.
Stop shouting.
You know I pulled a muscle when I did that grouting.
I can't do it.
I can't do it tonight.

Let's do it!
Let's do it,
Share a night of wild romance,
Frenetic,
Poetic!
This could be your last big chance

To quote Milton,
To eat Stilton,
To roll in gay abandon on the tufted Wilton.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

I can't do it.
I can't do it.
I've got other little jobs on hand.
Don't grouse
Around the house.
I've got a busy evening planned.

Stop nagging.
I'm flagging.
You know as well as I do that the pipes want lagging.
I can't do it.
I can't do it tonight.

Let's do it!
Let's do it
While I'm really in the mood!
Three cheers!
It's years
Since I caught you even semi-nude.

Be drastic
Gymnastic.
Wear your baggy Y-fronts with the loose elastic.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

I can't do it.
I can't do it.
I must refuse to get undressed.
I feel silly.
It's too chilly
To go without me thermal vest.

Don't choose me.
Don't use me.
Me mother sent a note to say you must excuse me.
I can't do it.
I can't do it tonight.

Let's do it!
Let's do it!
I feel I absolutely must.
I won't exempt you,
Want to tempt you,
Want to drive you mad with lust.

No cautions,
Just contortions!
Smear an avocado on me lower portions.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

I can't do it.
I can't do it.
It's really not my cup of tea.
I'm harassed,
Embarrassed.
I wish you hadn't picked on me.

No dramas!
Give me me pyjamas.
The only girl I'm mad about is Judith Chalmers.
I can't do it.
I can't do it tonight.

Let's do it!
Let's do it!
I really want to run amok.
Let's wiggle.
Let's jiggle.
Let's really make the rafters rock.

Be mighty.
Be flighty.
Come and melt the buttons on me flameproof nightie.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!

Let's do it!
Let's do it!
I really want to rant and rave.
Let's go,
'Cause I know
Just how I want you to behave:

Not bleakly,
Not meekly.
Beat me on the bottom with a Woman's Weekly.
Let's do it!
Let's do it tonight!.

Maybe a little pessimistic for a wedding?

And finally, this pretty, rather famous poem about love, by John Donne:

A VALEDICTION FORBIDDING MOURNING.
by John Donne

AS virtuous men pass mildly away,
And whisper to their souls to go,
Whilst some of their sad friends do say,
"Now his breath goes," and some say, "No."

So let us melt, and make no noise,
No tear-floods, nor sigh-tempests move ;
'Twere profanation of our joys
To tell the laity our love.

Moving of th' earth brings harms and fears ;
Men reckon what it did, and meant ;
But trepidation of the spheres,
Though greater far, is innocent.

Dull sublunary lovers' love
�Whose soul is sense�cannot admit
Of absence, 'cause it doth remove
The thing which elemented it.

But we by a love so much refined,
That ourselves know not what it is,
Inter-assur�d of the mind,
Care less, eyes, lips and hands to miss.

Our two souls therefore, which are one,
Though I must go, endure not yet
A breach, but an expansion,
Like gold to aery thinness beat.

If they be two, they are two so
As stiff twin compasses are two ;
Thy soul, the fix'd foot, makes no show
To move, but doth, if th' other do.

And though it in the centre sit,
Yet, when the other far doth roam,
It leans, and hearkens after it,
And grows erect, as that comes home.

Such wilt thou be to me, who must,
Like th' other foot, obliquely run ;
Thy firmness makes my circle just,
And makes me end where I begun.

Good luck!

TCH

[> [> Re: How about something from The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran -- Brian, 06:28:28 08/20/03 Wed

You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.

You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.

Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,

And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

Love one another but make not a bond of love:

Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.

Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,

Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.

For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.

And stand together, yet not too near together:

For the pillars of the temple stand apart,

And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.

[> Spencer and Shakespeare -- sdev, 09:00:57 08/20/03 Wed

How about these lines from the middle of Edmund Spenser�s Epithalamion which is a marriage ode. the �u� in �loue� or louely is a �v�):

WAKE now my loue, awake; for it is time,
The Rosy Morne long since left Tithones bed,
All ready to her siluer coche to clyme,
And Phoebus gins to shew his glorious hed.
Hark how the cheerefull birds do chaunt theyr laies
And carroll of loues praise.
The merry Larke hir mattins sings aloft,
The thrush replyes, the Mauis descant playes,
The Ouzell shrills, the Ruddock warbles soft,
So goodly all agree with sweet consent,
To this dayes meriment.
Ah my deere loue why doe ye sleepe thus long,
When meeter were that ye should now awake,
T'awayt the comming of your ioyous make,
And hearken to the birds louelearned song,
The deawy leaues among.
For they of ioy and pleasance to you sing.
That all the woods them answer & theyr eccho ring.

My loue is now awake out of her dreame[s],
and her fayre eyes like stars that dimmed were
With darksome cloud, now shew theyr goodly beams
More bright then Hesperus his head doth rere.
Come now ye damzels, daughters of delight,
Helpe quickly her to dight,
But first come ye fayre houres which were begot
In Ioues sweet paradice, of Day and Night,
Which doe the seasons of the yeare allot,
And al that euer in this world is fayre
Doe make and still repayre.
And ye three handmayds of the Cyprian Queene,
The which doe still adorne her beauties pride,
Helpe to addorne my beautifullest bride
And as ye her array, still throw betweene
Some graces to be seene,
And as ye vse to Venus, to her sing,
The whiles the woods shal answer & your eccho ring.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Or this one from Spenser�s Amoretti:

SONNET. VII.
FAYRE eyes, the myrrour of my mazed hart,
what wondrous vertue is contaynd in you
the which both lyfe and death forth from you dart
into the obiect of your mighty view?
For, when ye mildly looke with louely hew,
then is my soule with life and loue inspired:
but when ye lowre, or looke on me askew
then doe I die, as one with lightning fyred.
But since that lyfe is more then death desyred,
looke euer louely, as becomes you best,
that your bright beams of my weak eies admyred,
may kindle liuing fire within my brest.
Such life should be the honor of your light,
such death the sad ensample of your might.

Or William Shakespeare�s more familiar classic:

Sonnet 116
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments; love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

[> [> only one more -- sdev, 18:09:27 08/20/03 Wed

I withdraw my other suggestion. Spencer is not comprehensible for the occasion. How about a more accessible poem from Pablo Neruda, 100 love Sonnets, translated from Spanish.

XVII

I do not love you as if you were salt-rose, or topaz,
or the arrow of carnations the fire shoots off.
I love you as certain dark things are to be loved,
in secret, between the shadow and the soul.

I love you as the plant that never blooms
but carries in itself the light of hidden flowers;
thanks to your love a certain solid fragrance,
risen from the earth, lives darkly in my body.

I love you without knowing how, or when, or from where.
I love you straightforwardly, without complexities or pride;
so I love you because I know other way.

than this: where I does not exist, nor you,
so close that your hand on my chest is my hand,
so close that your eyes close as I fall asleep.

[> [> [> Thanks, you folk! -- Marie, 01:36:50 08/21/03 Thu

They're all great suggestions - though I can't see myself suddenly bursting into Victoria Wood's (much as I'd love to see the faces of the congregation!!!).

I'm still pondering - something scary at the thought of reciting Shakespeare. Or, at least, the thought of me doing it!

Any more, anyone?

Marie

[> [> [> [> One here -- Rahael, 10:45:13 08/21/03 Thu

I haven't got internet access at home at the moment, so haven't been around much.

I'll take my penguin book of love poems into work tomorrow - I may have a few more tomorrow!

This one might be a little risque and a little long but:

Valentine

The things about you I appreciate
may seem indelicate:

I'd like to find you in the shower
And chase the soap for half an hour.
I'd like to have you in my power
and see your eyes dilate.
I'd like to have your back to scour
And other parts to lubricate.
Sometimes I feel it is my fate
To chase you screaming up a tower
or make you cower
By asking you to differentiate
Nietzsche from Schopenhauer.
I'd like to successfully guess your weight
and win you at a fete.
I'd like to offer you a flower.

I like the hair upon your shoulders,
Falling like water over boulders.
I like the shoulders, too: they are essential.
Your collar-bones have great potential
(I'd like all your particulars in folders
marked Confidential).

I like your cheeks, I like your nose,
I like the way your lips disclose
The neat arrangement of your teeth
(Half above and half beneath)
in rows.

I like your eyes, I like their fringes.
The way they focus on me gives me twinges.
Your upper arms drive me berserk.
I like the way your elbows work,
on hinges.

I like your wrists, I like your glands,
I like the fingers on your hands.
I'd like to teach them how to count,
And certain things we might exchange,
Something familiar for something strange.
I'd like to give you just the right amount
and get some change.

I like it when you tilt your cheek up.
I like the way you nod and hold a teacup.
I like your legs when you unwind them.
Even in trousers I don't mind them.
I like each softly-moulded kneecap.
I like the little crease behind them.
I'd always know, without a recap,
where to find them.

I like the sculpture of your ears.
I like the way your profile disappears
Whenever you decide to turn and face me.
I'd like to cross two hemispheres
and have you chase me.
I'd like to smuggle you across frontiers
Or sail with you at night into Tangiers.
I'd like you to embrace me.

I'd like to see you ironing your skirt
and cancelling other dates.
I'd like to button up your shirt.
I like the way your chest inflates.
I'd like to soothe you when you're hurt
Or frightened senseless by invertebrates.

I'd like you even if you were malign
And had a yen for sudden homicide.
I'd let you put insecticide
into my wine.
I'd even like you if you were the Bride of Frankenstein
Or something ghoulish out of Mamoulian's Jekyll and Hyde.
I'd even like you as my Julian of Norwich or Cathleen ni Houlihan
How melodramatic
If you were something muttering in attics
Like Mrs Rochester or a student of boolean mathematics.

You are the end of self-abuse.
You are the eternal feminine.
I'd like to find a good excuse
To call on you and find you in.
I'd like to put my hand beneath your chin.
And see you grin.
I'd like to taste your Charlotte Russe,
I'd like to feel my lips upon your skin,
I'd like to make you reproduce.

I'd like you in my confidence.
I'd like to be your second look.
I'd like to let you try the French Defence
and mate you with my rook.
I'd like to be your preference
and hence
I'd like to be around when you unhook.
I'd like to be your only audience,
The final name in your appointment book,
your future tense.

John Fuller

OT: How did I become an accountant? *L* -- heywhynot, 17:14:08 08/19/03 Tue

Just wondering where I got the:
"heywhynot: an accountant whose idea of a thrill is putting in a quarter... and taking out two newspapers." On the Other:alias website.

Not upset, find it pretty funny, just curious :)

Adam vs Kate -- JBone, 20:13:17 08/19/03 Tue

I'm not convinced it does. Look, no offense. I think you're a pretty decent guy for a ...you know, what you are. But let's keep this strictly business, all right? We don't get personal. I'm not your girlfriend.

http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html

yesterday's results

Post comments at showtime, here, or email me.

[> I always liked Kate, but . . . -- HonorH, 20:39:22 08/19/03 Tue

No way could she stand up to Adam when even Buffy had to do the combo-Buffy thing to take him on. Adam gets my vote.

[> Re: Adam vs Kate -- ApOpHiS, 20:49:31 08/19/03 Tue

I really liked Kate Lockley and I wish she'd stuck around longer. That said, Adam's character had a lot of unexplored potential to go along with his sheer firepower. Ergo, he beats Kate in my only 2 criteria: 1) interesting character and 2) powerful (okay, 3 criteria: 3) not Spike, but that doesn't really apply here). I mean, come on; he's virtually indestructible and can shoot missiles. Kate got lucky with a vampire or two. No contest.

[> The tale of the misunderstood Kate -- Masq, 21:39:12 08/19/03 Tue

It ain't easy being blue: the symbolic importance of Kate Lockley in the Angelverse

Go Kate!

[> [> Now I feel guilty for not putting much thought in my decision. -- ApOpHiS, 21:59:30 08/19/03 Tue

[> Kate's a tough cookie (fully baked), and she's not intimidated by Jossverse weirdness... -- cjl, 22:03:50 08/19/03 Tue

Preparation is the key, and as a former LAPD detective, Kate is always prepared. Adam enters the battlefield, but Kate is nowhere in sight. He scans the area with infra-red vision, but finds all of Kate's possible hiding places lead-lined and impenetrable. So he starts blowing them all up. "This is futile, Detective Lockley," he shouts to nowhere in particular. "I am a kinematically redundant biomechanical demonoid. I have ten times your physical strength, thirty times your data capacity, and enough built-in weaponry to take out an army division. You have no chance." He's so busy bragging that he barely hears the high-pitched whine from above. By the time he looks up at the parapet, Kate's laser cannon blows a mammoth hole through his chest, taking his power core with it. (Coda: as the Army biohazard boys cart off Adam's body and pick up stray chunks of uranium, Riley and Sam offer Kate a new career as a demon hunter. She bitches a little about the hours and the benefits package--but she takes it.)

[> [> She got my vote -- Dead (but comprised of only my own parts) Soul, 22:39:17 08/19/03 Tue

And I have a feeling she used the sensitivity stick against him, somehow. Handling it with oven mitts, of course. And lubricant.

[> [> [> LOL! I love your brain! It's diiiirty ; ) -- Scroll, Kate-lover, 09:31:50 08/20/03 Wed

[> Re: Adam vs Kate -- Celebaelin, 02:00:18 08/20/03 Wed

Wow, tricky one. Having spent so long watching Buffy and thinking 'Where the hell are the cops' I was thoroughly delighted to see Kate appear on Angel. I rubbed my hands with glee at the prospect of all those juicy moral (or at least legal) dilemmas and problems. The Private Dick-Cop relationship seemed to be about to come in for the ME treatment and the DM in me saw much potential for character growth and development in the face of adversity on both sides (AI and the competant cop with a bee in her bonnet about some sleezebag PI). As things stand I find that I still having to suspend disbelief that the authorities leave the demon-hunting and supernatural stuff so well alone, in my imagination Kate goes on to have a career as Fox Mulder in drag.

Adam did not have so much potential for growth, largely as a result of his 'design flaw' I think. The synergistic sum of the scoobies feelings experiences defeated the synergistic sum of his various body parts and there's an end to it, his supra-genius evil mastermind days were over. Even the British Army WWII standard of 'Gone, and never called me mother' cannot be applied. Adam was already all he could be, that's why he wanted to separate Buffy from her friends.

I'm gonna go with Kate, she substitutes Boron control rods for plastic bullets in a riot gun and takes out Adam's power source in a sneak attack from a safe distace. Kevlar and hard cover suffice for the brief firefight and she walks away largely unscathed.

[> [> Screen not loading -- Celebaelin, 02:13:10 08/20/03 Wed

Not attempting to stuff the ballot box but I'm not sure that my vote went through so I'm going to try again. Mainly 'cos I want to see what the score is.

[> This match-up is crucially important -- Tchaikovsky, 02:06:14 08/20/03 Wed

Kate must win

This is a good test of the pH of the board. Adam is a charming cameo character, a less stellar evil, and a truly mediocre Big Bad compared to the previous Mayor and Angelus.

Kate is a wonderful character, the lady who was never quite Angel's Riley. And the reason why she wasn't is because she was complex. Kate enlivens some of Season One's best episodes: 'Sense and Sensitivity', 'The Prodigal', 'Somnambulist', where it was struggling in many other episodes. Kate had her instinctual father-orientated disgust consolidated by Angel's vampiric nature, thereby becoming symbolic both of the Los Angeles into which Angel failed to integrate, and later of Angel's struggle itself, particularly in the glorious, painful scene where she is dismissed in 'Reprise'. Her duet with Angel in 'Epiphany' remains the series' best scene.

And yet, for people who can't quite trust Angel, she remains more shadowy, less valid than Adam. And that's sad.

Show you're open minded and that you care, I urge you.

Vote Kate.

TCH
[Voting Kate]

[> [> What TCH said -- matching mole, 07:05:55 08/20/03 Wed

I was shocked, yes shocked I tell you!, to discover that there were fans out there who didn't find Kate interesting. What a great character for the broody one to play off of. Adam doesn't stand a chance - he going home with that same confused look one his face that he had when the missile turned into doves.

[> Freeze, dirtbag! -- Gyrus, 12:09:48 08/20/03 Wed

[SCENE: A dark alleyway. Searching for the perpetrator of a stabbing, KATE LOCKLEY inches down the alley with a gun in one hand and a flashlight in the other. Suddenly, ADAM steps into the flashlight's beam.]

KATE: (pointing gun) Police! Don't move! (Then, noticing that the figure in the light is not human, she smiles grimly.) On second thought, go ahead and move. I don't really care.

[KATE fires three shots into ADAM's chest. Each impact knocks ADAM back an inch or two, but that's all.]

ADAM: (looking down at the three bullet wounds) Fascinating. And uncomfortable.

[ADAM leaps forward and skewers KATE through the chest, Kevlar vest and all. She slides off the skewer and falls to the ground, eyes open but unseeing. ADAM retracts his skewer, then picks up KATE's gun in his left hand and inspects it.]

ADAM: A firearm. Very interesting. (He looks at his right arm and smiles.) And it gives me an idea.

[Fade to black.]

[> Re: Adam vs Kate -- MaeveRigan, 20:28:40 08/20/03 Wed

Looks like I may have missed my chance on this one (due to local internet outage), but as much as I would have liked to vote for Kate, honesty makes me say that Adam would almost certainly take this round, unless UberSlayer-Buffy turned up unexpectedly to help Kate out. No? Then Adam wins this one.

OT - MMmmmm, Jane Espenson on The O.C. -- RadiusRS, 22:15:16 08/19/03 Tue

I was very glad to see Jane Espenson as the writer for tonight's episode of "The O.C." I didn't realize how much I missed Buffy and its writing until I saw her name on screen. She had quite a few great quips in tonight's epsiode ("Star Wars convention?? You couldn't have said X-Men to make me look cool?"), and the scene where all the main characters' storylines unraveled at the Vegas Night had that sort of Buffy energy I've been missing. Little bits, like the buffet for the Ladies Who Lunch juxtaposed with Ryan getting prison food and being poked with a fork, remind me of the social commentary on Buffy that The O.C. claims to be exploring. The emotional points that all the characters hit tonight also reminded me of Buffy storytelling, and if they run with that aspect of the show, then The O.C. might just become must see; she also made me like and loathe the Bitch Mom from Riverside, the same way I liked and loathed the Buffy villains. Too bad it was only a one time thing for a couple of episodes, The O.C. could sure use her and I just can't get into Gilmore Girls, which will be Jane's main home for the rest of the TV Season.

(picking up a champagne glass of a waiter's tray) To Jane!!

[> Long Live Jane!! -- Rochefort, 23:59:28 08/19/03 Tue

[> Loving The O.C. very much! (mild spoilers for last night's ep) -- Scroll, 06:02:58 08/20/03 Wed

I have to admit, I didn't notice Jane's name but some of the quips did seem her style, now that you mention it. This show is really very funny and quippy in that JE style. Lots of love for geeks since Seth is the favourite so far. He was reading Batman at the breakfast counter! I'm continually surprised by this show. Even though some elements are predictable in that soap opera way, other things are moving along at a much faster pace than I expected.

And I too am enjoying the Bitch Mom from Riverside. Umm, where's Riverside? Is it an actual place?

[> Jane!! -- ponygirl, 06:25:41 08/20/03 Wed

Bonus points to her working in the obligatory Ryan-bruising in a new way. After a couple weeks of nasty yet not puppydog eye-obscuring shiners, the fork was a nice touch.

Wish Jane could stay on the OC!

[> Jane on Gilmore Girls -- cjl, 07:07:39 08/20/03 Wed

What's not to like? Jane will fit right in with Amy Sherman Palladino's gang of rapid-fire quipsters. With Rory about to start her first year of college, Jane can revisit the wild and wooly days of Buffy S4 and help AS-P craft an emotionally satisfying year-long arc that DOESN'T involve actors bolting mid-season and lame cyberdemonoids. Tuesday at 8? I'm there! What else is there to watch?

[> [> Re: Jane on Gilmore Girls -- Yellow Bear, 14:53:24 08/20/03 Wed

Where does this belief that Lindsey Crouse left Buffy mid-season come from? Doug Petrie is very clear in his terrific BBC S4 overview that the switch from Maggie to Adam was what they always intended to do.

Also, Gilmore Girls is far too cautious in it's storytelling. I could go for one episode where Rory isn't a complete saint or hey, how about Rory & Lorlie having a disagreement that isn't wrapped up in an episode. Really liked the first season and had hope that the show would take some chances but it always choses to play it safe.

favorite Angel season -- Seven, 07:10:14 08/20/03 Wed

Ok, i am bored.

I figured that i would try to see what everyone's favorite season of Angel is, and as an added bonus,

why it's your favorite
why the others aren't
what your favorite ep of that (favorite)season is
What the worst is
favorite ep of other seasons
worst
whatever else you guys can think of
best arc ?
worst?

I'm sure everyone will explain their reasoning, so i suppose that i'll start.

My favorite is definately season 1. This may be a suprise, especially following the joy of season 4 but my decision may have to do with the fact that season 1 is only one out of dvd and therefore the only season i have seen every ep of.

I have missed key episodes in season two because a friend of a friend let me borrow tapes, but those tapes were missing some eps, somehow all involving darla, including "Darla" and "Reprise" -- two meaningful stories.

More straightforward --Why did i love season 1?

It had the stand alone episodes. It had that pure noirish quality. Angel was a private dick - a loner. It had Doyle. It had Doyle die. It had the re-introduction of Wes. It has Wes falling down. A lot. It had the old Cordelia (who i feel was so much better than serious Cordy) who to be fair, started changing after her traumatic experiance in "To Shanshu in LA"

I loved "The Ring." C'mon, everyone knows this is the ep that Wes first shows off his badassness. Also, though, we see the 3 really start working as a team, not to mention the subplot of the slave warriors with "whatshisname" about to get his 21st kill against Angel. And the great line at the end -- "Actually, didn't we just free a whole bunch of demons?"

Worst ep? I fall to pieces -- I just though it was slow and i'm pretty sure i saw this episode on another show, like "monsters" or "the dark half"
Angel was still trying to find itself and this ep just didn't work

Now Season two ranks the lowest on my chart for one reason. Pylea. I like the arc, its kinda cool, but out of nowhere and i don't think it should end the season. I suppose i have this shiny image of Pylea that just doesn't fit with the dark tone of the series.

Next is season 3 only because season 4 is the second best. i have missed key eps in 3 also, most notably Conner's birth. (again, a key darla ep)
But i love the Wes story, the Conner story, and the Gunn and Fred story.
I didn't like the Angel and Cordy part. It seemed forced. Even on the characters, thats why Lorne had to tell Angel.

Season 4 was magnificent but starting with Apacalype Nowish, its a 16 hour episode. This hurts the season, but it is worth it for all the goodies we get.

So how bout it guys? What's your take?

7

[> Favorite Angel Season? Season 2 -- cjl, 07:49:58 08/20/03 Wed

Very, very close.

I'm tempted to say Season 4, because, technically, it scored higher in my end-of-the-year reviews.

But there's no way I can vote against Beige!Angel, the Return of Darla, the prime time of Holland, Lindsay, and Wolfram and Hart, the ascendency of Lilah, Drusilla's shocking entrance at the end of The Trial, Kate Lockley slow descent into despair, the integration of Gunn into the Fang Gang, the introduction of Fred and Lorne, and Cordy at her best--before Greenwalt, Joss and the rest of the writing staff ruined her character. Even the Pylea arc, a puzzling non-sequitur to most of ANGEL fandom, looked to me like a perfect set-up for the character conflicts in Season 3.

Episode by episode, Season 4 was better, but the demolition of Cordy drained the emotional satisfaction out of the season. (Although the philosophical conundrums posed by Gina Torres' Jasmine almost made the whole contrived mess worth it.) Season 3 was a more emotionally wrenching season, but the bad episodes were REALLY bad, and the C/A and F/G romantic arcs did absolutely nothing for me.

Best episodes (Season 2): Reprise, Epiphany, The Trial, Darla
Worst episodes (Season 2): First Impressions, Shroud of Rahmon

Best eps (Season 1): I've Got You Under My Skin, To Shanshu in L.A., 5x5/Sanctuary, Rm w/a Vu
Worst eps (Season 1): She, Expecting, Hero

Best eps (Season 4): Supersymmetry, Awakening, Magic Bullet, Home
Worst ep (Season 4): The House Always Wins

Best eps (Season 3): Billy, Loyalty, Offspring, Lullaby
Worst eps (Season 3): Double or Nothing, Provider, Waiting in the Wings, Carpe Noctem

Favorite arc: Darla/Sahjhan/Holtz (Hearthrob to Sleep Tight)
Worst arc: Glowy/Evil!Cordy (Birthday to Inside Out)

Best supporting character: LILAH!
Worst supporting character: Gavin

Miscellaneous comment: Gonna miss the Hyperion.

[> [> Re: Favorite Angel Season? Season 2 -- Seven, 08:24:35 08/20/03 Wed

I Definately forgot about some of the moments and arcs that you mentioned. Most noteably (sp?) the trial and the suprise of Drusilla at the end. That is definetly up there on the cool factor.

So far, the consensus is that season 2 is the best, which is odd considering that most fans like S2 Buffy as well. Could there be a reason for this? Like the shows peak at this point? Or that the central theme's of the shows force the show to peak season 2?

See, i don't think that i'll ever consider either season 2 as my favorite. There is way too much set - up and not enough delivery. (examples -- Kendra is a set up for Faith, Reprise a set up for a certain mystical pregnancy.) But you definetly reminded me of some key eps that i love.

7

[> Agreeing with my fellow tricharacter -- Tchaikovsky, 08:09:55 08/20/03 Wed

On the ratings at the end of my seasons, (which are up with the rest of the Odyssey, Season Two nips out Seasons Three and Four by two points out of a possible 220. So basically, I love them all. I really like Season ONe as well, although for me it is indisputably the weakest of the four Seasons.

There is no slack in Season Two. The momentum is not let down by the odious 'Provider'/'Dad'/'Double Or Nothing' Season Three episodes which broke up its genius. Nor does it have the Season Four hole of Cordelia, which, despite brilliant work on six other characters, couldn't be easily shrugged off. Season Two also contains what are arguably Angel's three best episodes, and certainly in my top five- 'Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?', 'The Trial', and 'Reprise'. And 'Judgement', 'Darla', 'Epiphany' and 'There's no place like Pltz Grzb' don't fall far short.

Favourite episode of Season Two: 'The Trial'

The worst is without a shadow of a doubt, 'Disharmony', David Fury's most offensive work to date, ('Lies My Parents Told Me' included)

Favourite episodes of other Seasons:
Season One: 'I've Got You Under My Skin' shades 'Five by Five', but comes up second to 'Sanctuary'.

Season Three: The best episode is 'Loyalty', with the raw 'Forgiving', the controversial 'Tomorrow', and the beautiful 'Fredless' somewhere in there.

Season Four: Minear reminded me how obsessed I am with his writing, with the superlative 'Home', which, with it's counerpoint 'Deep Down' and the literary ecstasy of 'Soulless' form the top three of the last Season.

Worst: Season One: She
Season Three: Provider
Season Four: The House Always Wins
With 'Disharmony', this quartet would be your best bet at putting me off Whedon's creations. Each are worse than any episode ever on Buffy.

Best arc: Connor loss
Worst: Cordelia Season Four

TCH

[> [> Re: Agreeing with my fellow tricharacter -- Yellow Bear, 13:32:58 08/20/03 Wed

De-lurking to give a shout for the criminally underrated Provider. I've always found the episode smart & funny (very funny, actualy) but more importantly, the interaction among the character is filled with warmth & affection something that is often missing in Angel with it's tendency to over-arcing melodrama. That lack of warmth (always there in Whedon-directed episodes also) is one of the reasons I feel Angel remains in Buffy's shadow.

Oh, Season 4 is my favorite with Home as my favorite episode of the series ever (replacing Lullaby) but S3 & S2 are just as strong as S4 overall but Home & Deep Down as season bookends give S4 a sense of completeness that the other seasons just don't have. S1 is the weakest thing I've ever seen ME do. A flat, ordinary supernatural detective drama redemmed by it's bursts of humor (I will always love She for Angel's vision of himself dancing) and the wonderful Faith arc which in many ways I consider the beginning of the series proper.

[> Re: favorite Angel season -- Gyrus, 08:50:41 08/20/03 Wed

I'd have to agree -- Season 1 was, in many ways, the most fun. It was interesting to watch a show that had familiar characters but a completely different feel than BTVS. I also liked the simplicity of having only 3 central characters (whereas BTVS has never had less than 5). Cordelia and Wesley were still very much themselves back then, slowly evolving into better people, and Angel was between periods of blind obsessiveness, i.e., after Buffy but before Darla and Connor.

Of course, I've enjoyed the introduction of Gunn, Fred, and Lorne to the group over the seasons, but I miss the relative arclessness of S1.

[> In a minority probably, but Season 4 -- s'kat, 09:56:45 08/20/03 Wed

Season 4 is my favorite season, oddly enough for reasons that others may hate it - it was the most tightly plotted of the seasons and serialized. In fact after Apocalypse Nowish it was one long episode and I loved it. Also it is the one season in ATS that had the least physical comedy, I'm not a big fan of pratfalls - actually the comedy in Spin The Bottle worked for me. The comedy in S1? Didn't.

Other reasons: it's the only season that in my humble opinion never bored me. I was riveted by the characters.
Found the story unpredictable with lots of cool twists and turns. And it took huge risks. How often in TV do we see a beloved character, the girl-friday, become truly evil?
The Wes/Lilah romance was adult, sexy, complex, and morally on the edge. Neither character was shown in a good or negative light completely. I am also amongst the minority of viewer who enjoyed the character of Connor. I really liked VK's portrayal and enjoyed how that character was explored. Was Season 4 dark? Yes. But fascinating as well.

I disliked Season 1, I got bored and stopped watching for a while. Stand-alone episodic detective stories where the hero saves someone new once a week from some monster, tend to bore me. Oh I'll watch them from time to time, but I never make a point of it. Nor do I pay much attention when I do. I've seen too many of them. I really don't like the episodic formula that much. I prefer serials. ;-)Season 1 also contained my least favorite episodes. I'm not a fan of physical comedy or pratfalls - clutsy Wes made me wince more than laugh. It doesn't work for me.

Season 2 was much better than one, but it took a while to take off, it wasn't until the Darla arc that I really got interested. And Pylea? Just didn't hold my attention. Still doesn't.

Season 3 - now we're getting somewhere - even though it had a couple weak episodes here and there (mostly stand-alones), I loved the villain - Holtz. My favorite villain on both series. Nice and complex. This was a villain I loved to hate. Also had two great arcs: Darla arc, Wes betraying Angel arc. If it weren't for Cordelia's wacky higher being/St. Cordy arc, the Groosaluag, Birthday and Double or Nothing, it might have tied Season 4 for favorite season.

what your favorite ep of that (favorite)season is:
Soulless. Evil Angelus in top form. It was like watching a seven character play and all those literary references.
If you ever doubt DB's acting ability? Re-watch Soulless.

What the worst of that favorite season is: Shiny Happy People, didn't like the episode. It was slow moving and squicked me.

favorite ep of other seasons:
Season 1: Five by Five/Sancturary: the Faith arc, wonderful.
Season 2: Reprise - when Angel sleeps with Darla and shares that fateful ride down the elevator with Holland Manners.
Season 3: Sleep Tight - Wesely's betrayale of Angel for the good of Connor, when my mouth dropped open afraid they'd killed my new favorite character. The beginning of dark Wes.

worst epsiodes in each season:
Season 1. She - bored me. Also way too many embarrasing pratfalls. And the plot made little sense.
Season 2. The Shroud of Rahmon - plot didn't really go anywhere. The purpose may have been to build on the AI relationships...but it seemed lacking somehow.
Season 3. Birthday - the start of the wacky Cordelia arc.
Which never made much sense.

best arc ? Darl�

[> [> I'm with ya! -- ponygirl, 11:24:17 08/20/03 Wed

[> Re: favorite Angel season -- Vegeta, 10:21:14 08/20/03 Wed

Definetly Season 4. I thought the overall story was extremely interesting and always had me going back for more. I have yet to see season 2, so least favorite season is definetly up in the air.

[> 3... no 2.. no 3... no 2... well.... -- Masq, 11:56:04 08/20/03 Wed

Both these seasons were exceptionally strong, with great arcs. I love the whole "NoirAngel" arc that started with dark and dangerous "Reunion" (Darla and Drusilla together! What a pair!) and reached its... ahem, climax, with the dark and broody "Reprise". Glorious moments of television.

Season 3 brought the delicious arc of Loyalty/Sleep Tight/Forgiving that still gives goosebumps.

But my motto is, any season of Angel that gives me Darla, Darla, Darla, is a Good Thing.

Hence my struggle between seasons 2 and 3. Season 2 brought its share of episodes that were sheer filler ("Guise Will Be Guise", "Happy Anniversary"). Season 3 brought some genuine stinkers ("Carpe Noctem", "Fredless", "Provider").

But season 2 gave good Kate. And season 3 had Connor, Connor, Connor in all his various incarnations--mysterious fetus, adorable infant, emotionally tormented boy warrior. Plus Holtz! Holtz was on.

This is not to say that I didn't like Seasons 1 and 4, because, you know: Faith arcs.

But I'd have to say my order would be 3, 2, 1, 4, with 3 and 2 neck-and-neck and 1 and 4 slightly lower and neck-and-neck with each other.

I love this show. But I have no idea how I'll feel about Season 5.

[> Re: favorite Angel season -- aliera, 18:17:51 08/20/03 Wed

Too pooped for the lengthies, so here's the short list:

2--3--1--4 (4 was neck and neck until Home ;-)

[> Is it just me, or does anyone else need to get all the DVDs before they decide? -- Nino, 20:55:49 08/20/03 Wed

[> Ranking Angel story arcs instead of seasons -- Just George, 23:31:39 08/20/03 Wed

I was a bit uncomfortable with all this talk of favorite Angel seasons. I relate to Angel stories as story arcs more than as seasons. So I sat down with the episode notes at buffyworld.com and plotted out how I saw the major arcs and story breaks in Angel. Others could easily come up with different or more detailed breakdowns. Here are mine:

Playing Dark Detective w/ Doyle and Wesley, ME looks for a successful formula
S1E1 City Of... - S1E19 Sanctuary

Finding the formula and setting up the real Angel Investigations, Enter Gunn and The Hyperion
S1E20 War Zone - S2E2 Are You Now or Have You Ever Been

The Darla and Lindsey Arcs, noir Angel
S2E3 First Impressions - S2E18 Dead End

Vamp until the next arc starts, introducing Fred and Pylea
S2E19 Belonging - S3E6 Billy

Darla, Conner, and Holtz arcs
S3E7 OffSpring - S3E22 Tomorrow

Vamp until the next arc starts. Oh yeah, Conner & Cordy
S4E1 Deep Down - S4E6 Spin The Bottle

The Beast, Angelus, Faith, and Jasmine Arc
S4E7 Apocalypse, Nowish - S4E21 Peace Out

S5 Pilot
4E22 Home

By dividing the series up this way, it was easier for me to judge my favorite portions. I enjoy the big arcs more than the individual episodes or min-arcs. So for me, it comes down to the following ranking:

1) The Darla and Lindsey Arcs, noir Angel: S2E3 First Impressions - S2E18 Dead End

I almost didn't rank this number 1. I felt the arc was stronger than the Darla, Conner, and Holtz story. It forced Angel to change more. However, I always thought that Angel got off far too lightly for leaving the lawyers in the basement to be killed by Darla and Dru. That bugged me. But, in some ways Lindsey's arc was as or more interesting than Angle's. The combination was very strong. So I'll go with strength of story and rank this arc number 1.

2) Darla, Conner, and Holtz arcs: S3E7 OffSpring - S3E22 Tomorrow

I liked this arc a lot. While I didn't like baby Conner (baby's get in the way of telling most action stories), ME fixed that by having him grow up quickly and off screen. Holtz was the cleverest bad guy ever on ATS. I also liked the emergence of the conflicted Wesley, so I ranked this arc number 2.

3) The Beast, Angelus, Faith, and Jasmine Arc: S4E7 Apocalypse, Nowish - S4E21 Peace Out

This was the tightest arc, with few wasted episodes. It also had the best production values. However, the broken characterization of Cordy, the squiggy Conner/Cordy relationship, and the weak presentation of Angelus left this arc ranked number 3.

I'm not sure I would rank the season in the same order as the story arcs. The "vamping" episodes in between the arcs make a big difference. I disliked the Pylea arc is so much that it might drop season 2 below season 3. And I liked the BTVS crossovers in season 1 so much that I might raise it above Season 4. I'm not sure, so I'll leave that for another post.

-Just George

[> Thanks! This thread has inspired me to watch my favorite Angel arcs while waiting for the new season -- Just George, 16:54:28 08/21/03 Thu

[> [> no prob -- Seven, 19:03:48 08/21/03 Thu

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