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Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William
-- luvthistle1, 06:24:41 08/22/02 Thu

Who is actually in love with Buffy? If the demon takes the body and not the soul, doesn't that mean the demon "Spike", that is the one in love with Buffy? Now that Spike has "William soul back, will he still be in love with Buffy, ?who loves Buffy - the 'William' part, or the 'demon' part.?

[>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Caesar Augustus, 06:37:34 08/22/02 Thu

Clearly the demon part is what has loved Buffy so far, since William's soul was AWOL. But William w/ soul was an incurable romantic - I can't see him not falling straight in love with Buffy too.

[> [>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Brian, 06:45:43 08/22/02 Thu

But wouldn't it be ironic if "William" decides that he is unworthy of her, and Buffy spends the whole season trying to win his affections?

[> [>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Rufus, 20:51:34 08/22/02 Thu

Sorry Ceasar...the vampire is the result of an infection. The demon part of him is more of a supplement....the person/personality in love with Buffy is the person who once was and that is William.

[>Re: Who actually is in love with the slayer? Spike, or William -- Thomas the Skeptic, 09:48:18 08/22/02 Thu

I've always thought that the part of Spike that fell in love with Buffy was the echo or shadow of William that was left behind after his soul departed so I suspect that William will soon become as enamoured of Buffy as the William-like parts of Spike already are.

[>Shouldn't it be *what* actually is in love with the slayer? -- leslie, 11:21:51 08/22/02 Thu

I think the answer to this question depends on what part of a person falls in love. Is it the soul? Is the heart? Is it the personality? Are these different "parts"? ("Tell me where is fancy bred/ In the heart or in the head?") This seems in turn to depend on whether you think that Spike was actually in love with Buffy or, as she insisted, he was feeling something that he thought was love but couldn't be because he was soulless. If you have to have a human soul to love, then Spike wasn't in love with her at all, so the point is moot. If it is the heart (beating or not) that loves, then Spike and William are indistinguishable for amatory purposes. If it is the personality, then it depends on whether you think that "Spike" is the result of an evolution of "William's" personality under the influence of vampiric experience, or that "Spike" and "William" are completely different personalities that have inhabited the same body at different points in time. In the latter case, there's no reason that "William" would be in love with Buffy just because "Spike" was; if the former, the argument that Spike's love for Buffy is actually the result of the remnants of William within him is supportable.

[>Who says it has to be either/or? -- HonorH, 12:25:23 08/22/02 Thu

The composite being Spike--demon and residual human personality--fell in love with Buffy. Obviously, we don't know what the addition of a soul to the mix will do, but it seems to me that as Spike isn't losing his demon or human aspects, he'll still be in love with her to some degree.

[>i like the question! -- anom, 14:21:51 08/23/02 Fri

Not sure I have an answer...but it does occur to me that William was in love with Cecily, or at least smitten with her. If they were, um, soulmates after all, maybe the return of Spike w/William's soul will lead to an answer to all the Cecily/Halfrek speculation we saw on the board after Older & Far Away. Will the resouled Spike be torn btwn. her & Buffy?

(Note: I'm just playing off the word "soulmates"--don't really think they were. The was no indication Cecily returned William's feelings; quite the opposite. But his own feelings for her may return along w/his soul, w/ME knows what consequences.)

[> [>Re: i like the question! -- genivive, 07:33:56 08/24/02 Sat

Why didn't Spike go after Cecily after he became a vampire? She should have been his first target. When he realizes Halfric is Cecily, maybe we will get the answer to that.

[> [> [>Cecily or Halfrek -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:56:05 08/24/02 Sat

Or maybe Cecily and Halfrek aren't the same person, they're just played by the same actor.

If ME does go that route, however, it's possible the Cecily was a vengeance demon the entire time Spike knew her.

[> [> [> [>Re: Cecily or Halfrek - Thats been answered already (sort of a spoiler I guess) -- Dochawk, 16:54:59 08/24/02 Sat

Marti in an interview admitted that Halfrek was Cecily. It wasn't planned that way, but it was too obvious not to be. Thats why the Halfrek has the line "William" in AYW. Doesn't mean that Spike recognizes her.


TL - Was Willow a "proto Black Willow" when she sought revenge on Glory (end of S6 spoilers)
-- Rohar, 11:05:56 08/22/02 Thu

Heya folks

I've lurked on this Forum a while, but this is my first post and I don't check in all the time here so this may have been covered already. But here goes anyway ... after watching the last three episodes of S6, and looking back at TL in season 5, does anyone else feel that the Willow we saw in that episode was a kind of "proto Black Willow" like I do? Ok ... it was only one book she used of Dark Magic, she didn't absorb the knowledge of the books and there were few of the physical changes (her eyes did go black though). True, Glory wasn't human and extremely evil and the Scooby gang had every reason to seek her final demise. But Tara was the victim of an attack, as she was in the events that lead to Willow turning into Black Willow and she suffered a fate not much better than death. And also, Willow wasn't listening to Buffy's reason after she saw that Glory had brain sucked Willow .... very much like Black Willow at the end of S6 .... and just very possibly there may have been flashes of "proto Black Willow" in season 4 in WAH and SB ...... Comments/Opinions Anyone ?

Rohar

[>There's a heated discussion about this topic in the archives... -- cjl, 12:34:08 08/22/02 Thu

Bascially, one group on the board was scratching their heads, wondering where the heck Darth Rosenberg/DarkWillow came from, and the other group was pointing to episodes like Tough Love, and even episodes as far back as S1(!) to show that Willow had the darkness in her all along. To which the first group responded, "yeah, but how did we get from sabotaging Cordelia's computer homework and shooting pencils through tree trunks to FLAYING PEOPLE ALIVE?!"

The second group took up the challenge, and..

Let's just say it went on for awhile.

[> [>Re: There's a heated discussion about this topic in the archives... -- Rohar, 12:53:02 08/22/02 Thu

Ok, thanks ....... if someone could find that discussion if it's still around and point me too it, I'd be very grateful to see what has already gone before :)

Rohar

[> [> [>Also try the thread which begins -- Sophist, 13:49:58 08/22/02 Thu

here.

[> [>It starts with Darby's post, "Dark Willow and the Story" in the July 2002 archive -- cjl, 13:04:54 08/22/02 Thu


[>Isn't Giles in Passion a better analogy? -- Sophist, 12:34:29 08/22/02 Thu

Or even Buffy in Sanctuary?

[> [>Or Graduation Day? -- Sophist, 12:44:28 08/22/02 Thu


[>I think it very much was. -- HonorH, 12:34:42 08/22/02 Thu

Welcome!

Yes, I do think TL was foreshadowing what happened at the end of S6. I also think there was another foreshadowing much earlier: "Wild at Heart," when Willow made an abortive attempt at cursing Oz and Veruca. It hopped up by degrees. First, in response to her lover's infidelity, she attempted a curse she ultimately was unable to follow through. Then, because of a horrific attack on her lover, she delved into black magicks to seek revenge. And did it strike anyone else that if Glory had been merely a human sorceress, that might not necessarily have stopped Willow? Finally, in response to her lover's brutal death, Willow went completely over the the Dark Side. So unlike some, I didn't see Willow's transformation into Darth Rosenberg as a sudden thing. We got hints long ago that this was a possibility.

[> [>The problem is... -- Darby, 13:19:27 08/22/02 Thu

...or was, in the earlier discussion, not that Dark Willow wasn't foreshadowed, but that the Dark Willow we were shown was not consistent with the dark sides of Willow we had been shown previously. Specifically, I didn't see Willow, under any circumstances, as being capable of taunting Dawn so cruelly, or idly offing Rack (we weren't even shown the circumstances of that), or of toying painfully with Warren before ripping his skin off, or consciously tossing out spells that quite reasonably would, even should, have killed her friends. Drunk with power, trying to eradicate pain, showing blunt superiority, those were all parts of Willow that regular viewers knew were there, but it was the casual cruelty and lack of concern for the other Scoobies that I have trouble reconciling with Willow, and I don't want to go in the direction of some sort of possession (which negates VampWillow as a real indicator of her Darkness) that might absolve Willow of responsibility for her actions.

- Darby, willing to rehash things in the Dog Days.

[> [> [>My solution: -- HonorH, 13:51:12 08/22/02 Thu

You'll notice that the first thing Willow does with her magic is save Buffy's life. She continues to be herself for a time, and slowly slides downward. My thought is that the magic brought out the worst in her, and the longer she had it in her, the worse it got. By the time she caught up with Warren, the urge to kill him had been amplified several times. Then, once that barrier (of actually killing someone) had been broken, other barriers started falling, and her rage took over to the point that she was willing to harm her friends to get at her targets.

When she went to see Rack, I don't think she was planning to kill him. Take his magic, yes, but then leave him alive, the way she did Giles. But upon taking that amount of black magic in, she buried her soul completely and casually killed him. It was after that that she started personally attacking her friends. You'll also note that at that point, she started referring to "Willow" in the third person.

On the matter of possession, I'd say it goes in degrees. Willow is responsible for her own murderous urges. She's responsible for taking in the black magics knowing that they'd change her, and not for the better. All the specifics after her second dose--Rack's--though, IMHO were done by something like VampWillow--a creature with effectively no soul. It took Giles' good magic to make her humanity resurface.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion. We'll have to wait until the next season for more definitive answers.

[> [> [> [>That'll work. -- Darby, 15:18:15 08/22/02 Thu

I see that as a viable explanation, but I find it unsatisfying. We've been led for a few years to see things less in black-and-white, and to see the "evil things" as being part of a continuum. What's fun about the show is that the Bads, Big and usually Little, have personalities and quirks that make them likeable on some levels. Well, Willow had an established personality that could have made her a truly terrifying Bid Bad, with her positive and negative traits in evidence (think about similar treatment for the Mayor or even Glory), but eventually she's so EVIL that it's not even Willow anymore. And if the BB isn't really Willow, what was the point? More "magic is drugs, and drugs is bad" garbage? How does that resonate with the repercussions and the rehabilitation? No, they hedged their bets, played it safe with a beloved character, which is exactly the opposite of what they used to rationalize Tara's death.

Personally, I think that they could have given us a season finale that avoided the classic lesbian sex - leads - to -death - and - insanity cliche, they could have dealt with Tara (even killed her) in a way that led to Dark Willow, and could have given us a plot with Willow, our Willow, teetering on the precipice of truly losing herself to the Darkness, even let her deal with Warren in some irreversible way, that really had us on the edge of our seats. When Willow dealt with Dawn at Rack's, I really feared for Dawn, but by that time Willow as I knew her was gone and no longer at risk, no matter how much the characters kept insisting otherwise. And much of the finale was the magical equivalent of a blockbuster movie chase + climactic fight, not all that original.

Mostly it's that I hold ME to a very high standard of sophistication and characterization, and although they produced a good season-ender I don't think it rose to the levels of some of their best work. And here on the board, I get to be unrealistic and expect them to be at their best with every script. It's not fair, really, but that's still the way I feel.

- Darby, that worst type of critic, the frustrated writer. But at least I'm not a clever sheep.*

* From one of Monty Python's very best skits.

"Mraaaaaa! THUMP!"

[> [> [> [> [>Willow at risk? -- Robert, 15:35:30 08/22/02 Thu

>>> "... but by that time Willow as I knew her was gone and no longer at risk ..."

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean when you say that Willow was no longer at risk?

[> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Willow at risk? -- Darby, 16:01:11 08/22/02 Thu

The unique situation that regular characters are in is that we get a feel for their personalities and an idea of what sort of action would send them "over the edge" in a way that would be difficult if not impossible to come back from. For Buffy it's killing humans, something she is fully capable of doing (and has done, for all intents and purposes, on at least three occasions). For Xander, an example would be betraying Anya - it was in character, and we're not sure if they will ever recover from it. For Spike, it was being shown that he really couldn't be trusted by his beloved Buffy. But what Dark Willow did was too extreme, treading on traits that I don't think Willow was ever shown to have - she is vindictive but not cruel, headstrong but not one to consciously risk her friends' lives - so what she did wasn't really something Willow was doing, she was some "other" and our guilty, inferior-feeling Willow was not being risked in the same way.

- Darby, who's not sure he's really explained it well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Buffy killing humans? -- Robert, 22:27:28 08/22/02 Thu

>>> "... so what she did wasn't really something Willow was doing, she was some "other" and our guilty, inferior-feeling Willow was not being risked in the same way."

Okay, I think I understand now, though I may not agree with your conclusion.

>>> "For Buffy it's killing humans, something she is fully capable of doing (and has done, for all intents and purposes, on at least three occasions)."

Please list these occasions. I've reviewed all 120 some odd episodes in my mind and I can't recall Buffy killing any humans. Thanks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Buffy killing humans? -- Off-kilter, 05:02:27 08/23/02 Fri

I'm blanking a bit, but in Spiral she is implicated in the killing of the Knights that say Key. At least the boss man says that several of his men were dead.She wasn't really upset about attempting to kill Faith if that's what it took to heal Angel. The others?
[shrug]
Someone else will have to point them out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Ted...because she considered him human at the time? -- aliera, 05:25:25 08/23/02 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 11:46:01 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Ted...because she considered him human at the time?"

1. Ted was not human.
2. Ted was not dead -- he was merely playing dead.
3. Buffy did not set out to kill him. She was responding to the assault and battery committed against her by Ted. They were trading blows and he started the fight.
4. Buffy was not yet even 17 years old and was being threatened with death or injury by an adult who was not her parent.
5. Ted was a cold-blooded murderer.

Just how does this qualify as an example of Buffy killing a human? Nevertheless, Buffy accepted full responsibility for her actions (as she also did later in "Dead Things") as long as she thought that she had killed a human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Miss Edith, 12:39:28 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy was slapped by Ted. She was not frightened of him or threatened. She smirked in a self-satisfied way and proceeded to beat the crap out of him and release the anger that she had previously been taking out on vamps. Giles was concerned by Buffy's violent tendences and her choosing to beat the vampires to "a bloody pulp". As far as Buffy was aware she had killed a human. She was given a lucky escape clause when he turned out to be a evil robat. If Faith had been given a similiar cop-out in Bad Girls would that have made her actions right? Buffy was not aware Ted was a murderer at the time.
I agree she did express remorse, unlike Faith. But I still see Ted as an example of her believing she had killed a human and later dismissing it. Faith felt evil and wrong and believed everyone considered Buffy perfect. Yet Buffy made to attempt to emhasise with Faith by mentioning her own experience in believing she had taken a human life. Ineed in Sanctury she coldly tells Angel she can't be in his club with Faith because she has never killed anyone before.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:02:06 08/23/02 Fri

It is debateable, however, whether or not a human Ted would have died in the fall. Since the robot intentionally shut off his circuits, we don't know whether it would have been fatal.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 15:01:04 08/23/02 Fri

Miss Edith, you give Ted too much leeway.

Ted encroached upon Buffy's personal space. He was in her bedroom without her permission. Do you want me in your bedroom without permission? Ted proceded to physically assault her. Thus, we have an strange adult man slapping a 16 year old girl in her own bedroom. Ted had no way of knowing that Buffy was anything other than a 16 year old minor girl. Do you want strange adult men slapping your daughters around?

He then proceded to trade blows with Buffy. Given that he was absorbing Buffy's blows, she had to know at that point that something was very wrong about Ted. Note also that when Ted faked his own death, he did it as a result of falling down the staircase, not as a result of one of Buffy's blows.

>>> "As far as Buffy was aware she had killed a human."

Yes, and given her extreme remorse and the arguments I gave above, I believe that Buffy had no intention of killing Ted.

Extracted from "Sanctuary":
> ANGEL
> I know Faith did some bad things to you--

> BUFFY
> You can't possibly know.

> ANGEL
> And you can't possibly know what she's going through.

> BUFFY
> But of course you do. I'm sorry I can't be in the club,
> but I've never murdered anybody.

And Buffy was telling the truth both literally and in spirit. Yes, she momentarily thought that she had accidentally murdered Ted, but she also accepted the consequences and she had not intended to murder him. Faith never accepted consequences for her actions, and she did commit willful deliberate murder on an innocent.

>>> "Ineed(sic) in Sanctury she coldly tells Angel she ..."

Buffy saying this to Angel was a hurtful verbal attack, but it was not untrue. Angel was man enough to bear it, knowing the extreme pain that Buffy was going through at the time. However, I do not believe that Buffy said anything coldly in this scene. She was extrememly hot with emotion. The emotion was fired by the victimization she suffered at Faith's hands.

Another extract from "Santuary":
> ANGEL
> She wants to change. She has a chance to--

> BUFFY
> No! No chance. Jail.

Even with all her pain, Buffy still did not want to kill Faith, but she did want justice.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Miss Edith, 17:09:32 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy didn't want to kill Faith? She did threaten to beat Faith to death when she tried to apologise although fair enough I doubt she meant it.
I am probably coming across as a bit of a Buffy hater which isn't really true. I do love Buffy but the episode Ted always came across as a bit of a cop-out to me. Buffy had momentarily lost control and done something really serious but its okay because he was a robat so forget the consequences.
I agree Ted was out of line. I was just making the point that a lot of the attack was based on Buffy's own issues and aggression. When slapped she does say "I was so hoping you'd do that" so she was spoiling for a fight, rather than genuinely intimidated.
And yes he had a good right hock but I don't think there was any evidence at the time that he was supernatural. Bufffy says to her friends that he was human and she shouldn't have hit him so I didn't see any evidence of her suspecting Ted of being non-human. Basically as far as she was aware she had killed a human and she dealt with the consequences of that. But after realising he was a robat she never mentioned the feelings she had at the time again and I do think she could have used the experience to emphasise with Faith. JMO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 18:08:03 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Buffy didn't want to kill Faith? She did threaten to beat Faith to death when she tried to apologise although fair enough I doubt she meant it."

Let us look at a dialogue excerpt from the shooting script for "Sanctuary".

> ANGEL
> She wants to change. She has a chance to--

> BUFFY
> No! No chance. Jail.

> ANGEL
> You think that'll help?

> FAITH
> Buffy.

> FAITH
> I'm sor--

> BUFFY
> (cold, calm)
> If you apologize to me I will beat you to death.

Thus, Buffy never said that she wanted to kill Faith. This was not a threat, rather it was an ultimatum. Regardless, I agree with you that I doubt Buffy would have carried through with the ultimatum. She was obviously very upset and angry at Faith, with good reason. She was also out of line, and Angel let her know it. But this does not mean that she ever wanted to murder Faith. However, she did want justice.

>>> "... so she was spoiling for a fight, rather than genuinely intimidated."

I agree! I doubt she was intimidated either, but Ted still initiated combat. What should Buffy have done in response? Said, "thank you sir, may I have another?" Merely because Buffy fought back willingly, maybe even happily, does not mean that she went into the fight with intent to commit murder. The fact that Ted successfully faked being dead is not evidence that Buffy would have killed a normal human.

>>> "Bufffy says to her friends that he was human and she shouldn't have hit him so I didn't see any evidence of her suspecting Ted of being non-human."

I agree, though I believe that if she had been on the ball, she would have known that something was funny about Ted at this point. On the other hand, she was rightfully upset of the whole episode and probably wasn't thinking clearly.

>>> "But after realising he was a robat(sic) she never mentioned the feelings she had at the time again and I do think she could have used the experience to emphasise(sic) with Faith."

Not everything that happens in the show necessarily gets mentioned again. Though for the continuity fiends (like me), it is always gratifying when they are.

I am assuming the word you meant was empathize, otherwise I don't understand what you meant to say here. I argue that Buffy did empathize with Faith to a point. Buffy often counseled Faith to come to terms with her accidental killing of Deputy Mayor Allan Finch. Buffy became less empathetic after Faith's treachery and betrayal were brought to light. By the time of "Sanctuary", the level of betrayal had gotten to the point where reconciliation was very difficult.

Maybe we will see a true reconciliation between Buffy and Faith in season seven.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Miss Edith, 18:38:21 08/23/02 Fri

But she thought she had killed a normal human. She knew when beating Ted that there was a possibility things could go badly. She didn't want to stop reasnably and calm down. Just like Faith she was out of control and spoiling for a fight. She went with her slayer instincts and as far as she knew things had ended badly with the death of a human. Ted did turn out to be a robat in the end but I don't feel that changes Buffy's prior behaviour and the fact that it could have been a human that she killed. Faith is evidence of the slippery slop. Buffy had the slayer instincts but thanks to her upbringing she knew the difference betwenn right and wrong and did feel guilty for taking a human life (as far as she was aware).
Sorry I did mean empathise. Couldn't think how to spell the word and had a mental blank. Anyway I felt Buffy appeared helpful on the surface. In Consequences she was saying that she wnated to help Faith etc. But she was coming across as the good slayer counseling the bad slayer. She did not say "hey I've been there to. I thought I killed a human, we've both been a little crazy lately" etc. I am probably being to hard on her mind you. I just never felt she was that helpful towards Faith and I could understand Faith's defensive reaction in Consequences.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: No ... not Ted!!! -- Robert, 00:07:03 08/24/02 Sat

>>> "She didn't want to stop reasnably and calm down."

What should she have done? Because Ted had drugged Buffy's friends and family, she wasn't getting the support she needed for dealing with the situation. She may not have known at the time that Ted was spiking the cookies, but she knew something was wrong. In addition, Ted was behaving very aggressively toward Buffy. Next he comes into her bedroom and reads her diary. He is thus invading her personal privacy. In addition, he is threatening to expose her and ship her off to a mental institution. Finally, he smacks her.

For all that she is the slayer, Buffy was still 16 years old. With her friends and family drugged so that they couldn't see Ted for what he was, Buffy was again alone. Ted is threatening her existence and assaulting her in her bedroom. What is the reasonable course of action? Complain to her mother? Joyce was drugged such that she didn't see the real Ted. Call the police? Given the quality of the Sunnydale police, I'm sure they would be no help at all. Call Giles? That might have been the wise course, and with a little more maturity, I feel confident that she would have made that decision. On the other hand, since Ted was after all a homicidal robot, then it would eventually have fallen on Buffy to destroy it anyway.

If the adult thing to do is to stop and back off, then why didn't Ted do that? He was the adult, not Buffy. There is a power relationship between mature adults and teenagers. This is why we have statutory rape laws on the books. We do not assume that the teenager can accept the role of mature responsible adult. Besides, if it had been any other 16-year old girl than Buffy, killing Ted at this point would have been justifiable homicide.

My conclusion here is that Buffy is not fundamentally a killer as some have suggested. While I do not have any trouble accepting her course of action with Ted, if others do, then I believe that they are showing a lack of compassion for people who are caught in difficult or impossible positions, especially immature children.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>All of those. -- Darby, 06:11:47 08/23/02 Fri

What she did to Ted and Faith should have killed them if they were human - a good attempted murder is just a murder where something goes wrong. And although the "this is war" rationale isn't something she accepts, it seems to have done the trick for the Knights she offed.

- Darby, starting to realize that in the Buffyverse actions only have the consequences that can be wedged into a 42-minute episode and advance the plot.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>What about... -- KdS, 06:38:25 08/23/02 Fri

Billy Fordham?

Coldbloodedly left him unconscious in a bomb shelter with a bunch of pissed-off vampires. Interesting that that's never been openly addressed, but when Angel does the same thing to a much nastier bunch of people we need a whole arc to sort out the consequences...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>"Lie to Me" and "Reunion" are hardly comparable -- HonorH, 07:41:23 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy didn't "coldbloodedly" turn her back on Billy. She had no allies down there, just herself, a bunch of vampires, and the half-baked GeekGoths. She was busy getting the other GeekGoths out, holding a stake to Dru's chest to keep Spike in check. If Billy had been ambulatory, she'd have waited for him to get up and get out, too. As it was, she saved as many as she could. Billy made his own choices, which are what led to him being down there in the first place, and it was next to impossible for Buffy to save him from them.

And it is addressed, I think, though indirectly. The whole episode was the first to show the true complexity of the Buffyverse. The villain of the piece was an old friend desperate not to die; the man Buffy loved revealed a hideous crime he'd committed, the results of which were walking around Sunnydale killing people and talking nonsense; and Buffy had to leave Billy behind when there was a chance she could've saved him, but it's not clear what that chance was. All of that leads to her asking Giles to, "Lie to me."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: "Lie to Me" and "Reunion" are hardly comparable -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:23:57 08/23/02 Fri

Plus, Billy chose to be down there and get turned. The others changed their minds when they actually saw the vampires, but Billy didn't. Getting him out would have to have been done forcefully or with a lot of persusasion.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: "Lie to Me" and "Reunion" are hardly comparable -- Robert, 11:53:35 08/23/02 Fri

>>> " Getting him out would have to have been done forcefully or with a lot of persusasion."

and Buffy was using both in bucket fulls, but was still unsuccessful. I personally cannot understand the mentality of believing Buffy guilty of murder, merely because she was unsuccessful in rescuing an individual who sincerely did not want to be rescued.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Billy Fordham ... what about him? -- Robert, 11:35:05 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Coldbloodedly left him unconscious in a bomb shelter with a bunch of pissed-off vampires."

You conclusion is outrageous and excessive.

First, Buffy spent the last half of the episode attempting to talk Fordham out of dealing with the vampires. Second, Billy was attempting to sacrifice Buffy and his innocent friends to the vampires as food. Third, Billy tricked Buffy into the shelter and trapped her there. Fourth, the vampires were "pissed-off" only because Buffy and the innocents escaped. Fifth, Buffy's actions were not "cold-blooded", they were desparate.

Buffy every right to defend her life, and those of innocents, against murder by another. Buffy gave Billy every chance to end his selfish actions and to save himself and the innocents. Because, to the bitter end, he refused to back down, he ended up being the only victim available to the vampires.

As a final piece of poetic justice, Spike gave Billy exactly what he wanted, to be turned into a vampire. The fact the Buffy staked him subsequently is (by definition of the show) not murder -- it was her duty and responsibility. Who really is to blame for Billy's ultimate demise (Billy, Spike, Billy's cult friends, or Buffy)? To blame Buffy is analogous to blaming an unsuccessful rescuer of an accident victim. Buffy did not need to go to that shelter in the first place. If she hadn't, all the innocents would have been eaten, but then no one would be accusing Buffy of "coldbloodedly"(sic) leaving Billy to his fate.

>>> "... but when Angel does the same thing to a much nastier bunch of people we need a whole arc to sort out the consequences..."

Angel DID NOT DO the same thing. He set up the Wolfram & Hart lawyers and then taunted them as they were about to be slaughtered. Thus, he carried some of the guilt for their deaths. Buffy was in the act of saving innocent lives and would have saved Billy too, if he had given her half a chance. The fact that she was not 100% successful in her rescue attempt does not make her guilty of Billy's death. Going back inside the shelter would not have saved Billy, and it would have gotten her killed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Arethusa, 12:46:36 08/23/02 Fri

for the lawyers and others to die irregardless of Angel's actions. They had brought back a woman from her natural death, and must have used some very dark magic to do so. Not even Willow, the "baddest Wicca in the Western Hemisphere" could do that, and evidently they had a very big cosmic price to pay.

Something I've always wondered-why to people assume the spouses are innocent of any culpability? (I don't know if there were any waiters there for sure, so I'll skip that part of the argument.) Husbands and wives often eagerly support their spouses' illegal behavior to share in the wealth and power. Isn't it immoral to knowingly live off ill-gotten gains, even if someone else did the killing and stealing?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Robert, 15:10:23 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "They had brought back a woman from her natural death ..."

Well, actually it was an unnatural death. Darla originally died when she was turned into a vampire.

>>> "... the PTB intended for the lawyers and others to die irregardless of Angel's actions."

This may be true. It may be that nothing Angel could have done would make a difference. However, there is something to be said for staining one's soul, and Angel does have a soul to stain.

Regardless, the point I was making is that Angel's situation with the evil lawyers was fundamentally different from Buffy situation with Billy Fordham.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Dochawk, 15:59:15 08/23/02 Fri

Agreed.

What I have never understood is that though it would be an uneven fight, the lawyers knew how to fight vampires. There were many of them and most were not Linwood, but young. Even with Dru's psychic ability I would have guessed that they would have had a shot at winning, yet it seems that they didn't even try. We've seen regular humans be able to fight vamps before, certainly Xander does it and the W & H lawyers know much more than the average person.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Someone (Lorne?) said the PTB intended -- Arethusa, 16:22:04 08/23/02 Fri

Darla did not die by mystical means. Her blood was drained, her heart stopped, and her soul left her body. Her (dead) body was supported by mystical means, but I think that's different. Her body was eventually staked, but it was already dead.

I'm not disagreeing with your point-just adding a couple thoughts. (I'm fighting the flu, or something. Not too coherent tody.) Angel was very wrong to do what he did, of course, and he did sin in letting the lawyers die without trying to help them. I agree that he had a choice, and Buffy really didn't.

Interesting point, Dochawk. We've seen Darla take out four people practically with one blow, but there were a lot of people in the wine cellar. Perhaps Drusilla did her hypnotic mojo?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Some clarification and responses -- KdS, 06:15:53 08/24/02 Sat

Firstly, I think that we have a problem with language meaning different things. When I use the word "coldblooded" I don't necessarily mean "evil". On balance I think her actions were defensible but not as defensible as you argue. Finn argues that it would have taken a lot of argument and persuasion to get Ford out of the cellar. Why? He was still unconscious. Buffy quite unambiguously told Ford that if the vampires got into the cellar she would kill him. After the fight she leaves him unconscious in the corner and if she had had any intention of saving him she could have ordered a couple of the goths to carry him out. Some of them seemed big enough that it wouldn't have slowed them down much.

When I said "coldblooded" what I meant was that at some stage Buffy decided that any way of saving Ford would incur risks to her and the innocent goths disproportionate to the value she placed on his life. You obviously believe that that decision was correct and I believe it was defensible. However I also believe that when Buffy made that choice she did consciously incur some responsibility for Ford's death.

After Willow, Xander and Angel arrive Buffy is fairly reticient about what actually happened in the cellar and talks about returning for "the body" in a manner that would have left them with the impression that Ford was definitely dead. I do think Giles may have suspected though, and that that suspicion underlaid their final discussion.

Regarding the comparison between Buffy's actions regarding Ford and Angel's regarding the Wolfram & Hart lawyers, I do accept that Angel's actions were quantitatively worse because he made no attempt to save anyone present and drew no distinction between the W & H personnel and their spouses/dates/servants. However, I don't see any justification for Robert's claim that Angel "set [them] up". Angel tried his best to kill Darla and Dru in the conservatory and had no involvement in their choice to massacre W & H. He was only faced with a decision when he arrived at the Manners house and made the wrong one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Putting the spouses/wait staff issue from Reunion to bed -- acesgirl, 12:15:41 08/24/02 Sat

I've been rewatching Angel season 2 episodes this summer and caught the following exchange between Angel & Kate in "The Thin Dead Line".

After Angel's initial interaction with the cop that won't die he goes to see Kate for some help because he is still on the outs with the gang.


********************************************
KATE: I haven't seen you in a while.

ANGEL: I've been busy.

KATE: Me too.
She goes to her filing cabinet, open it, files her manila folder. She pulls out two other folders, waves them at Angel.

KATE: Couple of cases I've been working. (re: the first folder) Two women killed in a clothing store. (re: the second folder) Thirteen lawyers from Wolfram and Hart slaughtered in a wine cellar.
***********************************************

That cleared it up for me, as regards who actually was killed in that wine cellar. As for Angel's cupability, well that's another matter entirely.

I hope this information proves helpful to everyone.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>The Rationale -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:30:13 08/23/02 Fri

For the Knights of Byzantium, it wasn't the "this is war" rationale, it was the "self-defense" rationale. They attacked and she fought back.

As for Faith, she was a murderer who would have to be dealt with eventually. Can you imagine the Ascension with her in it? Plus, Buffy's use of handcuffs there shows she had changed her mind and was going to bring Faith to Angel alive. Only because Faith broke the handcuffs and continued to fight did Buffy stab her.

Ted, all right, I'll give you something in that one. Ted did slap her first, so a court might give her self-defense leeway, though, considering that she has Slayer strength, it wasn't a fair fight, so it does become morally grey. I'd place it at attempted manslaughter at worst, though.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Just George, 11:28:22 08/23/02 Fri

Ted did attack Buffy first, and he hit her very hard (slamming her back a couple of times). I always assumed that Buffy could subconsciously tell the difference when she attacked (hitting a robot vs. hitting a human). The fighting/slayer part of her brain therefore went all out in a way she wouldn't have against a normal human in the same situation. Buffy's been pretty good at moderating her attacks against humans every other time.

But in the end, I know itıs a rationalization I make because I like Buffy. It's not something based on any particular information in the show.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Robert, 12:05:35 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "Ted, all right, I'll give you something in that one."

Finn Mac Cool, I must strenuously disagree with you here.

>>> "Ted did slap her first, so a court might give her self-defense leeway, though, considering that she has Slayer strength, it wasn't a fair fight, so it does become morally grey."

1. Yes, Buffy had slayer strength, but Ted had robot strength.
2. Buffy was a 16 year old minor child whose life or limb was threatened by an adult, not her parent or guardian.
3. Ted was in Buffy's bedroom. He was encroaching upon and attacking her personal space.
4. Ted and Buffy were trading blows. He could have ceased and retreated at any moment prior to and during the fight.
5. What in the hell does fighting fair have to do with protecting oneself from murder or injury.

>>> " I'd place it at attempted manslaughter at worst, though."

If so, then it would have been justifiable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Darby, 12:47:50 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy vs human is a lethal weapon. Ted, as far as Buffy knew, was human (she certainly thought so after "killing" him) and she used her power on him. It's no more justifiable than if she had pulled out a shotgun and blasted him with it. With Faith, at least it was ostensibly an even match (but she did intend to kill her, which is important too), and the Knights were armed, but Ted is justifiable only in retrospect.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:12:54 08/23/02 Fri

Just realized something:

If Ted were human, would the fight with Buffy have killed him? Ted was only pretending to be dead, so it is uncertain if a human in his position would actually have died. That would make it only assault, and, considering Ted slapped her first and continued the fight, she wouldn't even be held to blame for that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Robert, 15:27:09 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "If Ted were human, would the fight with Buffy have killed him?"

If Ted were a normal human, he would have gone down with the first blow. Consequently, Buffy should have known at this point that Ted wasn't human. The fact that she was shocked and remorseful after Ted faked his death suggests that Buffy never intended to kill Ted and thus was not landing killing blows.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: The Rationale -- Robert, 15:23:56 08/23/02 Fri

>>> " Ted, as far as Buffy knew, was human (she certainly thought so after "killing" him) and she used her power on him."

Buffy did not intend to kill Ted. If she did intend to kill Ted, then she would have known with the first blow that Ted was not a normal human.

>>> "It's no more justifiable than if she had pulled out a shotgun and blasted him with it. "

Your analogy doesn't hold up. If Buffy were a normal 16-year old teenage girl and a strange adult man came into her bedroom and proceded to attack her, then she would be fully justified in fearing for her life and killing him.

>>> "With Faith, at least it was ostensibly an even match (but she did intend to kill her, which is important too),..."

NO, SHE DID NOT. Buffy's first action was to lock Faith in handcuffs. If she went into Faith's apartment with murder on her mind, then why would she do that. Buffy wanted Faith alive for Angel to feed on. Whether that might have killed Faith is a different ethical issue. Even a half year later when Faith had committed yet more perfidious crimes against Buffy, Buffy still didn't want to kill Faith. In "Santuary", Buffy stated that she wanted Faith in jail.

>>> "... and the Knights were armed, ..."

You are FAR too lenient with the Knights of Byzantium. They were not only armed, they had stated their firm intention of murduring Buffy's family and anyone who got in their way, and they had the means to carry it out. Buffy and the gang were heavily outgunned and outmanned in their desparate flight from Glorificus and the Knights. Whether Buffy intended to kill anyone in this battle or not, she was clearly defending the lives of herself, family and friends. She was justifiable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>While a agree with you overall -- HonorH, 15:51:08 08/23/02 Fri

. . . on everything, actually, in this thread, I have to point to a few things that contradicts you on the Faith matter.

First, when Buffy announces her intention to get Faith for Angel, someone, Xander, I think, says that that means Angel will kill her. Buffy says, "He won't have to." Later, when Buffy tells Faith the blood of a Slayer is the cure for the poison, here's the conversation:

F: You know you'll never take me alive.

B: Not a problem.

So at that point, at least, Buffy was willing to kill Faith and take her body back for Angel to feed on. The handcuffs were to assure that Faith didn't escape. Furthermore, Buffy knew Angel wouldn't want to kill Faith, either. Having Faith already dead would make it easier for him--and that was what mattered.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While a agree with you overall -- Robert, 18:18:36 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "F: You know you'll never take me alive."
>>> "B: Not a problem."

Good point! On the other hand, this could mean that while Buffy did not fundamentally want to kill Faith, this was the price she was willing to pay in order to save Angel. The goes back to an argument I made earlier. Who has a greater right to life, the murderer or the innocent victim of the murderer? The only other way to save Angel was for Buffy to risk her own life. Why is she any less deserving to live than Faith? After all, it was Faith's criminal action that put Buffy and Angel into this situation in the first place.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- HonorH, 18:59:50 08/23/02 Fri

*On the other hand, this could mean that while Buffy did not fundamentally want to kill Faith, this was the price she was willing to pay in order to save Angel.*

On that, we agree. I don't think Buffy was especially wanting to kill Faith, but the confrontation had been coming for a long time. There's a great discussion in the archives about why Buffy went after Faith the way she did, and someone's terrific thesis was that the confrontation was inevitable at some point.

I won't get into that now, but there is also one final thing: ultimately, it was immaterial whether Buffy really was going to kill Faith herself or merely bring her back to Angel to drain. In either case, Faith was dead, and Buffy was either directly causing or facilitating her death. Doeasn't make a whole lot of difference in the final analysis.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- Robert, 00:26:25 08/24/02 Sat

>>> " In either case, Faith was dead, and Buffy was either directly causing or facilitating her death."

Except that we don't know that Faith's death was inevitable. Buffy survived the experience of curing Angel. Presumably Faith would also, though maybe Angel would show less restraint for Faith than for Buffy. On the other hand, Angel showed considerable restraint with Faith in the episode "Sanctuary".

Regardless, if Faith's death was inevitable, then whose fault and responsibility was it for that? Buffy was not the one who fired the crossbow bolt. Where does there personal responsibility here?

Faith was not some innocent rube, robbed of her organs in some dark alley. She was personnally responsible for Angel's suffering and impending demise. Buffy gave her the opportunity to do the right thing when Buffy snapped the handcuffs on her. Faith chose to fight to the death instead. The fact that no one died as a result was fortuitous. Nevertheless, Buffy was not the instigator for this sordid chain of events. She was merely trying to put the pieces back together in the best way she knew how.

>>> "Doeasn't make a whole lot of difference in the final analysis."

I think it makes a considerable difference. If Buffy was attempting to murder Faith out of spite, then she stains her soul. If she kills Faith in a battle of justice, then her soul remains pure. This is after all the gist of Buffy's argument in "Seeing Red" on why Willow couldn't be allowed to kill nerd troika. I believe that Buffy has never crossed this line, even with all the ethically ambiguous choices that she has been called upon to make.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- TRM, 15:46:53 08/24/02 Sat

I'm a little surprised at how polarized many seem to be taking this topic, with many stating that the only two views are Buffy as a cold-blooded methodical killer versus Buffy as the innocent forced by circumstance to act as she does.

The Knights aren't really debatable, and my conclusions break down like this: (1) Yes, Buffy would kill people if the circumstances forced her so (self defense, war, etc.) (2) Buffy was morally justified in killing these people. [Not by my moral standards, btw, which are amazingly ambiguous, but by some "standard" standard which I'm pulling from either my perception of society or the show itself, I'm not sure...]

Faith is a trickier issue. Here, I will focus specifically on Buffy's intent. Does Buffy intend to kill Faith (Graduation Day not Sanctuary where I view her threat as simply a threat)? She doesn't intend to kill Faith for the sake of killing her, but she does not mind if Faith dies as a result of her actions; murder is not an end but a means. I've always felt, however, that the episode was meant to cast light on Buffy's potential darker side, and I believe we are meant to question Buffy's progression towards a Faith-like character. Particularly as Faith smiles as she tells Buffy: "You did it" after Buffy stabs her, as a mentor to a protegé. Regardless, she's portrayed neither as cold-blooded and evil nor as an untarnishable hero. A stereotypical altruistic hero would have sacrificed herself from the very start and put no one but herself at risk (btw, I do not find protecting her life so that she might save more lives a fully convincing argument). Ultimately, Buffy was willing to make a tough decision -- one which most would consider understandable, if not justifiable, if not morally sound -- and sacrifice someone else for at least partially selfish reasons.

Ted always did disturb me for the very reason that many are arguing that it seems like Buffy killed a real person (her aggressiveness versus Kathy gave me a similar feeling). First of all, I am of the camp that feels her attack should be morally viewed as an attack on a man moreso than on a robot, since she had never arrived at the conclusion that he was indeed such a creature. The level beyond that reflects whether Buffy was justified in doing what she did as a result of what Ted had/was doing to her. Certainly a teenage girl is justified in self-defense. However, another term is also relevant: "extreme prejudice." Whether Buffy used more force than necesssary versus Ted depends on how aggressive Ted appeared to be and what other methods Buffy had open to her. Let's hold up the untarnished hero as our foil for the moment and consider what she would do. In such a situation, she should have ideally attempted to disable Ted without killing him -- Slayer-strength versus apparent human strength should have sufficed. Buffy may have been engaging in such an action and simply have gotten carried away. So, she is not as trigger-happy as the shotgun example might make her seem. However, she shows significantly less restraint than an ideal character would. Buffy should not be completely free of remorse since she was probably very capable (assuming the she was mentally lucid) of disarming or dissuading Ted without using the force that she did. That Buffy was under extreme pressure, gives her slightly greater leeway with respect to her actions -- to some degree she couldn't control the amount of force she was using. Buffy is not wrong for having defended herself, but the form that defense took was certainly questionable.

I think very few, if any, would argue that Buffy is a cold-blooded killer. Nor would many argue that Buffy is a saint. To some degree, we've been seeing a progression of Buffy from selfish to sefless, however which can parallel how we view her treatment of humans. Contrast Ted with Ben, for example. Or the quite evident Prophecy Girl versus The Gift Buffy seems to be a more-than-moral girl with occasional slips towards the dark side.

Or perhaps I'm wrong and as Willow said in Döppelgangland "some people just don't have that in them."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Nice Post! -- Rahael, 16:13:58 08/24/02 Sat

Ted reflects Buffy's issues with father figures....one of the great scenes in Season 1 is her scene with Hank in Nightmares. She is not happy with being edged out of the family, and Ted constantly harps on about how Buffy isn't good enough.

I also saw Buffy acting out of a pain and desperation there - not as the Vampire Slayer, but as Buffy the girl. I also believe that Ted set up the fake death, and that the fall was premeditated on his part, to really get Buffy out of the picture. His house was full of the bodies of his ex wives - he is a literal Bluebeard, the archetypal patriarchal misogynist. He wants to subdue Joyce and Buffy, to make them into the vision of a bygone 'perfect family'.

ME often explore serious issues in two stages - an earlier, less serious way, followed by a very dark, serious exploration. Often the first time is in a comedic ep, and then the second time, it turns to tragedy. Ted was one of the times when even the first go was pretty shocking.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Nice! -- HonorH, 18:01:54 08/24/02 Sat

Your take sums it up: Buffy's no remorseless killer, but she's no saint, either. She's got lots of levels of in between in her, as do we all. The cases in which she's killed, or attempted to kill, humans, illustrate this. How many of us have a line that could be crossed that would lead us to consider killing another? How many of us *really* don't want to know if there's that line in us?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: While I agree with you overall -- HonorH, 18:09:49 08/24/02 Sat

*Except that we don't know that Faith's death was inevitable. Buffy survived the experience of curing Angel. Presumably Faith would also, though maybe Angel would show less restraint for Faith than for Buffy.*

The fact is, all canonical evidence shows that Buffy didn't expect Faith to survive, and neither did Faith. Buffy could even have told Angel she could survive him drinking from her in order to get him to feed--she was willing to sacrifice her own life for him. Buffy was willing to trade Faith's life--or her own--for Angel's. How much of that was pure altruism and how much of that was genuine anger toward Faith on Buffy's part is up for debate, and even Buffy probably couldn't tell you. Buffy's no saint. Faith got to her like no one else. And when it came down to Faith dying vs. Angel dying, Buffy was willing to either kill Faith or deliver her up to death.

I'm not saying this makes Buffy a bad person. I am saying there's a shade of gray there. Faith brought them out in Buffy, and that's why their relationship was such a fascinating one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: battle frenzy -- leslie, 17:40:48 08/23/02 Fri

Getting onto my Indo-European warrior hobby horse here: One of the persistent problems that I-E myths about warriors are constantly trying to address is what do you do with a warrior who goes berserk? As I've mentioned before, the problem with warriors is that you have a bunch of people who are strong, well-trained in offense and defense and the use of weapons, and who work best when they are not stopping to ruminate on each action before they take it but are capable of acting quickly and with trained instinct in crisis. This is great when you have an enemy to defeat, but every so often the warrior gets so carried away in the moment and frenzy of battle, he (or she) attacks anything that comes his or her way, without stopping to assess whether it's friend or foe. It seems to me that the underlying point of the whole Ted business was that it was the first time Buffy encountered this possibility in herself. She was already upset about not being believed about Ted's threats to her, she was frustrated and ready to pop, and then he gave her an opening. She wasn't thinking about every single blow, she was just hitting, and he took it. Like just about every other thing she's ever hit--was she really taking a moment to think, "Hmm, well this is peculiar, usually it's only vampires and demons that can stand up to this kind of pummelling." She was on Slayer autopilot. By and large, I really hate this episode--mostly because of the whole John Ritterness of it--but I think it's a seminal point in Buffy's development as a warrior, and it's part of the reason that both Faith and Spike regard her as being a goody two-shoes with a stick up her ass--she's constantly aware of what she's capable of, while Faith and Spike are all for giving in to the heat of the moment. All have their points.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: All of those. (quite long) -- Robert, 14:33:31 08/23/02 Fri

You wrote:

>>> What she did to Ted and Faith should have killed them if they were human - a good attempted murder is just a murder where something goes wrong. And although the "this is war" rationale isn't something she accepts, it seems to have done the trick for the Knights she offed.


You've accused Buffy of murder or attempted murder in relation to Ted, Faith and the Knights of Byzantium. I will discuss them individually.

Ted

  1. Buffy did not murder Ted.

  2. Ted was not even human.

  3. Buffy did not even attempt to murder Ted. She responded to Ted's assault and battery of herself. Ted struck first, without warning and without just cause.

  4. Ted encroached upon the personal space (ie. Buffy's bedroom) of a minor child (Buffy was still only 16 years old) without the permission of either Buffy or her mother. He refused to leave when Buffy told him to.

  5. When she thought that she had killed Ted, she was stricken with remorse. She fully accepted responsibility for her actions, because she had not intended to kill him.

  6. Ted and Buffy were trading blows. If her blows would have killed a normal human, then she would immediately have known that Ted was not a normal human. It was only after Ted faked his own death that Buffy thought she had killed a human. Thus, she had not been landing killing blows. Recall also that Ted's fake death occurred as a result of falling down the stairs, not as a direct result of Buffy's blows.

  7. He was capable of ceasing battle and retreating at any point during the battle. As long as Ted was merely menacing, she couldn't justifiably do anything. The moment Ted landed the first blow, Buffy's imperative changed to protection of self, family and friends. She could not retreat; she was already in her own bedroom.

  8. Once Buffy knew that Ted was a robot, it was fair game for destruction. Thus, Buffy did not kill a human.

Knights of Byzantium

Whether she accepted the rationale or not, Buffy did not need the rationale of this is war. Buffy did not willingly march to the field of battle to engage the enemy. Buffy and her family and her friends were running from the threat of Glorificus and the Knights. It was her sincerest wish to avoid any fighting and to get to safety. The Knights had previously stated to Buffy their full intent to murder Dawn and anyone who got in their way. In the battle during Spiral, they were attempting to make good their threat. Thus, Buffy was fully justifiable in protecting her self, family and friends from the immediate deadly attack by the Knights.

The Knights that Buffy may have killed were directly attacking her and friends and family. Buffy was fighting them off with inferior arms and numbers. To conclude that Buffy murdered them is outrageous. Should she have merely laid down and let them murder her instead?

One might ask; was she remorseful? If she was, she didn't have opportunity to show it. Buffy went from battle with the Knights, to siege by the Knights, to battle with Glorificus, to coma, to battle with Glorificus, to death. Somewhere in all this, I think that Buffy deserves a little slack.

Faith

You argue that Buffy's actions with Faith was just a murder where something goes wrong, because Buffy's blows would have killed a normal human. Your argument is a non sequitur. Buffy's blows would have been attempted murder only;

Buffy did know that Faith was a slayer, thus she knew that Faith was not a normal human, thus she knew that she was not landing killing blows, thus she did not commit attempted murder until she used the knife.

When Buffy went to Faith's apartment in Graduation Day, she did not intend to kill Faith, merely to capture her. My evidence for this is the use of the handcuffs. Only after Faith broke free of the cuffs did Buffy resort to the knife. Buffy was given only three choices in this episode; let Angel die, let him feed upon herself possibly killing her, let him feed upon Faith possibly killing Faith. Since Angel was dying as a direct result of the unprovoked attack by Faith, poetic justice alone suggests the proper course of action. Since Buffy did not die as a result of Angel's cure, then Faith need not have died either. Thus, Faith was fully capable to making right the crime she committed when she shot Angel with the crossbow. Thus, it was her choice to resist Buffy's insistence that she provide Angel's cure. Does a murderer have more right to life than their innocent victim? And what about justice for Faith's crimes?

Faith operated outside the justice of the normal law, both because she was a slayer and because of the Mayor protected her. She was also outside the justice of the Council of Watchers, because they were incompetent. Thus, Buffy was left with the unasked for responsibility of meeting out justice to Faith personally. There was no reason to believe that Faith would not have continued murdering innocent people if Buffy had not stopped her. Let us recall the flack Buffy took for not stopping Angelus before he murdered Ms Calendar and other innocent humans. Because it was Buffy's responsibility to protect humanity from the scourge of vampires, she does bear partial responsibility for not stopping Angelus when she had the chance. By the same argument, if she hadn't stopped Faith, she would similarly be partially responsible for any subsequent crimes committed by Faith. If the police kill a murder suspect in a gun battle with him while attempting to take him into custody, is that murder?

Was Buffy remorseful? I think she was, as shown by her actions in the hospital after she awoke. Buffy always felt some sympathy for Faith, given her hard life without a loving family and friends. Buffy understood that Faith was jealous of Buffy and her place in Sunnydale.



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>nicely said -- Dochawk, 14:55:02 08/23/02 Fri

I would add that we are assuming the Knights of Byzantium are human, because they have human faces (Buffy certainly does). They appear mystically, they are not native to our time. they are chasing the key through whatever places the monks took it. You can easily justify that they weren't human (yes you could use the same arguements about Dawn, but Dawn was made of human DNA,do we know the Knights were? or were they like Glory who took a human form on earth?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said -- Mr Gordo, 19:00:12 08/23/02 Fri

So if the Knights were human it would have been wrong but if they were demons it would be okay? So you are judging by race, not individual behaviour. If you conclude the Knights deserved to die, Buffy didn't have a choice fair enough. But don't say that if they were demons fighting to save the world from Glory then it would be okay to kill them, but not if they were human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said -- Dochawk, 21:19:26 08/23/02 Fri

Thats a different arguement. All I was exploring was Buffy killing humans. I don't think its safe to assume the Knights were human. Buffy is absolutely in her rights to defend herself and her friends against human or demon.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:15:34 08/23/02 Fri

Glory brainsucked one of the knights. She only seemed able to do this to humans, so the Knights were not demons.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said - Glory brainsucking -- Dochawk, 21:17:17 08/23/02 Fri

On the contrary she says to Murk that he is intelligent because she hasn't sucked his brain yet. I am pretty sure Murk wasn't human.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: nicely said - Glory brainsucking -- Rook, 23:11:07 08/23/02 Fri

The knights were definitely human, at least if Spike's chip can be trusted (and we're led in "family" to believe that it's a good indicator of humanity), since he got headaches from hitting them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Agree with your comments. Also... -- Artemis, 18:55:23 08/23/02 Fri

In regards to whether or not Buffy felt remorse in regards to the Knights I think you're right she didn't have an opportunity. But I found it interesting that she says to Xander in regards to Willow in 'Villians' "Killing people changes you, believe me I know." So this has had an affect on her and she is aware of it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Killing People Changes You -- Robert, 00:43:05 08/24/02 Sat

>>> "So this has had an affect on her and she is aware of it."

I imagine it did have an affect on Buffy. I believe that if given a chance, she would have mourned those she was forced to kill. The key word is "forced". My concern when I wrote my previous posting was that some people on this board were referring to the cold-bloodedness of Buffy's actions. I don't believe for a second that Buffy was cold-blooded in her actions. I believe that they tore into her heart, especially because she was forced to do them. After all, if she hadn't fought and kill the Knights, then they all would be dead.

Even worse, some people have argued that Buffy should have allowed Dawn to be destroyed, in order to avoid all the unpleasantness that followed. Imagine the damage that Buffy's soul would have sustained if she had. Dawn was constructed as the ultimate innocent victim.

[> [> [> [> [>If you were, we'd have to rename you 'Arold -- Dead Soul, 16:53:38 08/22/02 Thu


[> [> [> [> [>Re: That'll work. -- Miss Edith, 11:43:50 08/23/02 Fri

I know a lot of people criticise Marti'e episodes but perosnally Villians was the only episode containing dark Willow which held my interest. I was gripped when she planned to torture and kill Warren. It made sense but showed my favourite character becoming horribly corrupted. I was moved at the remaining hints of her humanity when she saved Buffy in the hospital. And when she spoke of Tara whilst torturing Warren saying "you took her light away".
The writers lost me when they made Willow a cartoon villian. Seeing her scream like a bansheee at the police station and borrow Giles power saying "I am so juiced" just made me cringe. And there was no way I could believe the character was Willow when I saw her throwing Giles around the room and torturing him, and challenging her best friend to a girly catfight smirking she is going to kick Buffy's ass. That wasn't Willow any more and I stopped caring. I was not happy with the portrayal of grief at all. Giles brought up Tara and there was no sense of Willow being in genuine pain or losing her mind. She was just a gloating evil villian to fight. I started caring about her again only in the finale when Xander tries to save her. The evil Willow storyline really did not work for me. What was most dispointing was I had waited 3 years for that story to build up. Not only were there only 3 episodes of evil Willow, but they weren't even good episodes.
I really wish Willow had been corrupted by power and all the talk of Willow having an addictive personality and being taken over by the "magics" had been avoided. When I read the interview in which David Fury said "you have to remember that wasn't really Willow" the only word that came to mind was cop-out. I had looked forward to a mature exploration of someone being seduced by power. I was gripped by our Willow threatening Giles in Aftelife and planning gruesome vengeance on Warren. When she was planning to kill all her friends and we were told "Willow doesn't live here any more" I was bitterly disapointed.

[> [> [> [> [> [>Re: That'll work. -- shadowkat, 12:19:36 08/23/02 Fri

I agree with you on the Willow thread. I too was waiting
for a better payoff and was disappointed by the cartoonish nature of the last two episodes: Two-To-Go and Grave, which if you've seen John Carpenter's Vampires - have ripped off two scenes from it. (If you haven't? Don't bother. Not my favorite film. Very hokey. And reminiscent of Rio Bravo.)
Made me realize our writers have seen one too many B westerns and horror movies lately. ;-)

I liked what I thought they were leading up to in Flooded.
That amazing scene between Giles and Willow in the kitchen which gave me a chill. Or even in Tough Love and WOTW. Smashed was even sort of leading there.
Then they took an odd turn in Wrecked. It was almost as if they'd pannicked. We can't do the power-trip, we'll lose the character, so hey, I know let's go addiction instead.
(I would have preferred the power trip and I held out hope all the way up to Two to Go that was where they were going.)

You, Darby and a few others I can't remember, are right when you state they copped-out. I think they did. They had been leading to something remarkably interesting and went the easy route, the cliche (not the lesbian cliche - the drug addiction cliche that has plagued every twentysomething - post high school television drama since the medium was invented.). MAkes me wish they watched more television and less B movies. But oh well. ;-)

Now instead of seeing a young woman struggle with the guilt of killing someone, of letting power take over and her own insecurities - I'm afraid we'll have a continuation of the drug-addiction story line, where we see Willow in withdrawl and struggle with the dark magic trying to possess her.
Would have found the other story far more interesting.

Even though Villains had plot-holes and Two-to-Go was smoother plot wise. Villains was far more gripping and interesting regarding Willow.

Oh well - maybe I'm just expecting a bit too much from the writers. Not sure how I would have done it if I'd been in their shows.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: That'll work. (obtuse season 8 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 12:49:43 08/23/02 Fri

joss has been planning this for at least 3 years. I believe that you are right that he planned on having her go really dark on the power trip. I think they looked and said, how do we get her back? If she does go all the way, how do we make her sympathetic to the other characters again or more importantly the viewers. if this had been the end of the series (or Alyson had decided she had enough, not 3 more years on her contract)i think they would have chosen the braver route. But then you would be looking at a potential season 8 with Spike, Dawn and Xander. With the exception of the spikaholics, there would be little for them to work with.


Potentially politically incorrect Willow speculation
-- Darby, 12:06:19 08/22/02 Thu

First, I am not now nor never have been a lesbian, nor do I play one on TV.

However, there seem to be an inordinate number (maybe 20% of the total work force, but I haven't done the math) at my wife's workplace, and it's a very sharing group. Anyway, this is third hand and I wondered if anyone out there with some expertise could confirm. Could I get any more oblique?

When we come back for S7, Willow will have been grieving for already three months for someone who, except for the whirlwind reconciliation, she had broken up with maybe 8 months back. She's young, she's resilient, she's pretty centered on her own needs, ME needs to confirm that she won't be "switching back," so I think it's pretty clear that she'll going back onto the market (there's got to be a better way to put that...) during S7.

Thing is, my wife's lesbian friends claim (and their actions seem to confirm) that lesbians don't "date," they "fall in love."

Will Willow follow this pattern? Will ME let her, knowing that it might seem to minimize Tara? Is this even a reasonable question?

- Darby, an anthropologist on Venus dancing on the edge of an active volcano. Probably blindfolded. Possibly on one foot.

[>A suggestion from someone with lots of experience in this area -- CathSith, 12:20:23 08/22/02 Thu

"Darby, an anthropologist on Venus dancing on the edge of an active volcano. Probably blindfolded. Possibly on one foot."

....once you get the rythym of the volcano's music, hopping up and down *a lot* is often an appropriate response...

[>Personally, I'd like to see her have a one-nighter with Faith. -- HonorH, 12:29:34 08/22/02 Thu

Oops! I think Honorificus got out for my subject line.

As for Willow's dating habits, Joss hasn't ruled out the possibility of another girlfriend for Willow. My thoughts tend to run the opposite of yours, btw: the separation and brief reconciliation will actually make it harder for Willow to move on. She'll probably feel (not incorrectly) that her misuse of magic led to her losing a lot of time with Tara, with whom she was still in love, even if they weren't together.

[> [>And right afterward, Best Buddies Willow and Xander can compare notes. -- cjl, 12:39:01 08/22/02 Thu


[> [>Why one night when we've still got a whole season left? -- Apophis, 14:32:59 08/22/02 Thu


[> [> [>Now you're sounding like a Xenite. -- HonorH, 16:41:09 08/22/02 Thu



Anybody read Swanwick's "Iron Dragon's Daughter"? (S6 spoilers)
-- KdS, 06:44:35 08/23/02 Fri

Can think of some massive parallels to SR through "Grave", but don't want to waste space if no-one knows what I'm talking about.

(Although a telepathic, misanthropic stealth bomber would have been just what Will needed... :-) )

[>Re: Anybody read Swanwick's "Iron Dragon's Daughter"? (S6 spoilers) -- aliera, 06:55:45 08/23/02 Fri

KdS: Haven't read it but the reviews were good weren't they? I'd be interested to hear about the parallels...please do post 'em.


Is death still her gift? (small teensy spoilers)
-- Purple Tulip, 08:02:55 08/23/02 Fri

I was just sitting here, pretending to be working on my last day of work before I leave for college, and I was thinking about that now famous line from season five "death is your gift". This had always plagued me ever since I watched "Intervention". I know that Buffy took that to mean that death could be her gift to Dawn- sacrifice herself for her sister and the good of the world. But when I first heard that, I honestly thought that the first slayer was talking about her being a slayer- killing vampires was her gift.

SO this got me thinking---how many ways can this line be interpreted?

1. Death as gift= sacrificing her own life to save her sister and the world- her death is her gift to the world and to Dawn.
2. Death as gift= slaying. She can do something that no one else can do to save humanity (well, ok, Faith can to do it too, but isn't she locked up?)
3. Death as gift= the love of two dead men. The very unlikely love and loyalty of two vampires (both of which have souls) is a rare gift given to her (maybe by the Powers that Be so that she can help on their roads to redemption).
4. Death as gift= the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow. "Death is you gift" meaning that she can die but never really be killed---how many people can claim that?
5. Death as gift= killing Angel/Angelus and sending him to a hell demension. Here, death was again her gift to the world; she sacrificed the man that she loved to keep the world from being sucked in by Acathla.
6. Death as gift= the destruction of the mayor and again, the saving of Sunnydale. She again orchestrated and carried out (with help) something that no one else could have done. She sacrificed the school to save the town---death was her gift to her classmates upon graduation.

It seems that there has been elements of death as Buffy's gift at the end of each season. Has anyone else noticed the ambiguous meaning of this blunt statement? Am I just completely reading too much into this or could it mean something more than just dying for Dawn? Are we still to see more incidents of Buffy's "gift"? Opinions please!!!!

[>Death as a gift is an underappreciated concept in Western Societies -- cjl, 08:34:36 08/23/02 Fri

Not to swerve off-topic on the first response, PT, but the idea of "death is your gift" can be interpreted as a tremendous blessing conferred upon the Slayer, if not a virtual anunciation. Western society views Death as a horror, the final barrier, the looming catastrophe, the Sword of Damocles, etc. But in Eastern religions, death is a necessary and integral part of the cycle of life; Buffy's role as Death-bringer bestows upon her a sacred place in the cycle, destroying so that life can begin anew. Being chosen as the instrument of Death, in fact, may be the universe's gift to HER.

[> [>Re: Death as a gift is an underappreciated concept in Western Societies -- skpe, 09:01:28 08/23/02 Fri

Buffy as an avatar of Sheva?

[> [>Killing vampires -- matching mole, 09:02:55 08/23/02 Fri

is often regarded as an act of mercy (e.g. in many Dracula movies). It allows the soul to rest in peace, in a natural death. This doesn't really fit in with the BtVS vampiric metaphysics but slaying could in some sense be regarded as a gift to the humans who have been vamped, freeing them of the parasitic demon. Of course Spike and Angel complicate the issue but this is BtVS after all.

[> [>Re: Exactly. -- Wisewoman, 09:56:25 08/23/02 Fri

Somewhere deep in the archives there's a discussion of this very subject and I remember posting something similar, a mention of how death itself can be seen as a gift, rather than a horror to be avoided at all costs.

(As I recall, I didn't have much success convincing people, though! LOL)

;o)

[> [> [>Really? Must've missed that one, WW, or I would have backed you up. -- cjl, 12:21:46 08/23/02 Fri

I can understand why Buffy doesn't see it that way, though. She has to deal with the blood of innocent victims, demon mucous, and allergies to all that dust from staked vamps. Easy for Watchers to babble on about how holy and sacred Slaying can be: they don't have to clean up the mess most of the time.

[> [> [> [>The watchers also get paid ;-) -- shadowkat, 12:53:12 08/23/02 Fri


[>Go with your first answer (small spoilers) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 09:00:11 08/23/02 Fri

Remember when you were younger and well-intentioned individuals would tell you, that, when taking a test, "always go with your first answer."? In that same vein, my first interpretation of "Death is your gift." after seeing "The Gift" was twofold:death was Buffy's gift to the world, sacrificing herself to make its continued existence possible and death was a gift to Buffy, the reward of final rest after all her exertions as a hero for the last five years. Both these interpretations seemed equally valid to me at the same time and, hence, equally ironic. Now, after reading your post, I see that there are even more ways of reading this ambiguous prophecy.

[>Re: Is death still her gift? (small teensy spoilers) -- Dochawk, 12:31:14 08/23/02 Fri

In the way you are looking at it;

The death of Billy Fordham which she didn't cause but allowed. Billy was set to die a painful and horrible death. Buffy allowing him to die quickly was an unconcsious act of mercy.

[> [>Re: death of Billy Fordham -- Robert, 15:40:13 08/23/02 Fri

>>> "The death of Billy Fordham which she didn't cause but allowed."

When you say that Buffy allowed Billy's death, does that mean she had an acceptable choice in the matter? The way I see it, Buffy's choices were;
1. go back inside and both she and Billy die at the hands of our good friend Spike, or
2. do not go back inside and only Billy dies at the hands of Spike.

Did you see another choice in the episode "Lie to Me"?

[> [> [>Re: death of Billy Fordham -- Dochawk, 15:55:23 08/23/02 Fri

Guess I wasn't clear, nope, I don't think Buffy bears any responsibility whatsoever, I was just saying that she did him a favor (and I speak from my experience as an MD here about what a young person with a terminal brain tumor goes through).

[> [> [> [>Um, eternal damnation folks? -- KdS, 06:24:04 08/24/02 Sat

We're dealing with a universe that canonically has an afterlife. Given that, I don't think that leaving someone wuith a soul to die in a state of moral ambiguity can ever be considered a good thing...

[> [> [> [> [>I really would adivse against going there ... (not as bad as it sounds) -- Earl Allison, 14:31:42 08/24/02 Sat

Because that opens a very thorny issue that, quite frankly, undermines the entire Buffyverse.

If you contend that Buffy left Fordham to die (I don't, he tried to kill her, and bashed her over the head minutes earlier -- was she supposed to throw her life away in what would have been a failed attempt to save him?), then Giles and the Scoobies are responsible for Harmony, Larry, Snyder, and all the others who fell at Graduation -- because they didn't do more to protect them from the supernatural (call the National Guard, whatever).

Like the Scoobies at Graduation, Buffy did what she could with the resources and time she had -- all while at least paying lip-service to the idea that the supernatural is NOT a mundane/known occurance. That's why the students fought, and we didn't see the police or the army, which we almost certainly WOULD have in real life, supernatural mayor or not :)

It's just, if you get TOO into the semantics, you risk pulling the curtain away and ruining the show, at it were. There is a certain amount of disbelief necessary for the show, and taking the argument to its logical conclusion would disrupt that disbelief.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> [>There's an afterlife in the Buffyverse, but that doesn't mean it's a way to punish sinners. -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:14:50 08/28/02 Wed


[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Was going to let this die, but... -- KdS, 06:31:49 08/29/02 Thu

Finn's post opens up one of the big problems in the Buffyverse, that has nothing to do with the individual question of Ford.

We've seen that there is some kind of afterlife in the Buffyverse ("I Only Have Eyes for You", "After Life", "Room w/a Vu", arguably "Reprise") but it's very unclear what kind. In particular, although the word "hell" is used a lot there's no evidence that any of the various "hells" we've seen are actually a place of posthumous punishment. "Hell" simply seems to be used to refer to any dimension inhospitable to humans. The closest we've seen is in "That Vision Thing" where Billy does seem to be being tortured rather than merely restrained, but it's unclear if he was actually dead or if his plight was eternal.

However, if the Afterlife is anything other than a straight bliss/torment affair as in traditional Christian cosmology, then it demolishes the whole justification for the special sanctity of human over demon life. If killing a souled person could mean that you are consigning them to eternal damnation, while dead demons are just annihilated or returned to the hell (in whatever sense) from whence they came, then there's a reason for not killing humans (but killing evil demons). If, however, the afterlife is just a continuation of the moral journey then all that happens is that the person moves to the next stage a little earlier than before. Of course, there is the question of the pain to the people who knew them and the potential for reformation and restitution on this planet, but that seems to apply to (some) demons as well (the fact that Spike went to get a soul of his own free will, regardless of whether he fully understood the implications, seems to me to demolish the "demons are unreformable" thing).

Is there any way to rationalise this, short of just not thinking about it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>I don't see this -- Rahael, 06:37:30 08/29/02 Thu

Because I don't think that such considerations *should* have any weight.

Buffy kills Vamps and harmful demons because they harm other people. She doesn't operate from a complex ideology which tells her that she must go on a holy crusade. She is a pragmatic defender of mankind.

She must be good, and just, because that is a reward in itself. She died in the Gift, not because she knew she would be rewarded, but because the action itself, saving Dawn, saving the world was reward enough.

It seems the afterlife in Sunnydale is as uncertain as life. All anyone can do is to act in an ethical manner. And hope for the best!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- KdS, 06:59:09 08/29/02 Thu

But in that case why not kill Faith in "5 By 5", or Warren post-"Dead Things" or Holland Manners? All of them were so immoral or so out of control that they posed an imminent hazard to anybody who got in their way. What I'm asking, is why are humans special, except that "they look like us" (which I really won't accept).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Yes I see -- Rahael, 07:10:11 08/29/02 Thu

Perhaps the explanation is that there is a process by which we deal with human wrong doers: the process of Justice. The court of law, prison if guilty.

But yes, I find it pretty confusing. I just keep repeating to myself: "the monsters are a metaphor! Slaying is a metaphor!"

LOL

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Yes I see -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:12:12 08/29/02 Thu

First off, we know Buffy went to heaven when she died, or something very much like it, but that is obviously not what happens to everybody. Ghosts are proof of this. If there are these two options (ghost and heaven) why can't there be more options for an afterlife. Besides, what Buffy considers Heaven may be insufferably boring for a number of other people.

As to the kill demons but not humans thing, I'm going to do the blasphemous and suggest that BtVS and Angel have different canon (*gasp* shudder).

In BtVS demons are for the most part innately evil. They can't help it, it's what they do. They are different from human beings on a spiritual level. While there have been some good demons on BtVS (Clem, some of Spike's other poker buddies, and that demon from Enemies, Season 3) they all share the common factor that they're wimps. It's implied that they are not evil simply because they can't handle violence or are too scared.

On Angel, however, we've seen many examples of good demons, and not neccessarily wimpy ones. Spiritually, they aren't much different from humans, or at least, some aren't (it's hard to tell if the ability to be good is up to each individual demon or if only certain species have it, since at least one species, vampires, has been shown to be unredeemable). This is a break in canon from BtVS. Why does Angel consider it moral to kill evil demons but not evil humans, then? Because that's exactly what the demon in him wants. Angel spent over a century torturing and killing humans as Angelus. And the desire to do so is still in him. So, if he slinks up behind Lilah one night and kills her, his dark half is getting what it wants: the chance to commit murder. And, once he gets a taste of it again, will Angel be able to stop? Or will his vampire urges, awakened in the killing of a human being, take over and lead him to murdering the innocent along with the guilty? The second option is too great a risk.

That's my two cents. Any takers?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Yes I see -- LittleBit, 10:47:28 09/01/02 Sun

Perhaps it's not so much a difference in canon as it is a difference in locale. Sunnydale is situated on a Hellmouth, and is most likely to attract the 'worst of the worst' so we see more innately evil demons in its vicinity. Los Angeles is a more diverse location without the draw of a specific nexus of evil, so the demons who reside there reflect that diversity.

Therefore Sunnydale gives us the polarization of good and evil (the Slayer and the Hellmouth) while Los Angeles shows us the range of good and evil.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Malandanza, 08:44:27 09/01/02 Sun

"But in that case why not kill Faith in "5 By 5", or Warren post-"Dead Things" or Holland Manners?"

I'll go further and ask: why does Angel work so hard to redeem people? It would have been easier (and safer for the rest of the world) for Angel to kill Faith, Lindsey, human Darla and Lilah, yet in each case he tries to reform them (Lilah even mocks him for his naiveté). If there is no afterlife, why is redemption important at all?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Arethusa, 10:52:59 09/01/02 Sun

Maybe it isn't important. It's certainly outside our control-Angel couldn't save Faith, Lindsey, or Darla-they needed to do it themselves. All he could do was help them when he was able, to let them know that they're not alone in the struggle. Why struggle to be good at all? A nearly unfanthomable question. Maybe that's where the soul comes in-it makes us long to be good, to be at peace with ourselves. Once again, my favorite quote in the Wedonverse, from "Epiphany," written by Tim Minear:

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

Throughout our entire lives we all seek a close connection to others-maybe it's a return to the closeness we experienced with our mothers, or a need to conquer loneliness, or a desire to be reunited with God-there are many many theories and no clear answers. The acts of kindness give us the sense of union with others that acts of selfishness and other evils do not. It is doing good that makes us feel we "contain multitudes." (I love Whitman, too.) It was the loneliness that comes from choosing to do evil that made Lilah reach for Wesley, without knowing why, or Darla weep with grief at the thought of being separated from her son, or Lindsay be unable to live with himself after he saw the face of the man who once owned his hand.

Quote by psyche.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Exactly -- Rahael, 13:58:35 09/01/02 Sun


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Malandanza, 21:34:22 09/01/02 Sun

"Angel couldn't save Faith, Lindsey, or Darla-they needed to do it themselves. All he could do was help them when he was able, to let them know that they're not alone in the struggle."

I don't want to turn this into a debate on semantics -- about what we mean by saving someone else, but I do believe that Angel was instrumental in saving Faith, Lindsay and Darla. Yes, in each case the individual had to make the choice, but they might not have had the choice (and certainly would have been less likely to take the opportunity to change) had it not been for Angel. Angel "saving" Faith is his most noble deed. If Faith, Lindsay and Darla would have been saved regardless of Angel's actions by their own free will, what was the point of Angel trying so hard? He could have left them to their own devices, to swing towards hellfire or heaven according to their individual preferences. His efforts made a difference, and that is what I mean when I say he saved them.

"Why struggle to be good at all? A nearly unfanthomable question. Maybe that's where the soul comes in-it makes us long to be good, to be at peace with ourselves. Once again, my favorite quote in the Wedonverse, from "Epiphany," written by Tim Minear..."

Angel also talked about the perfect clarity of evil. When he was evil, he was at peace with himself. Angel has barely had a moment's peace since he was ensouled -- even in his noir period, when he had given up on good, he was more at peace than before he let the lawyers die.

Now, I have long thought that the soul is distinct from the conscience -- the soul recognizes the difference between good and evil and rewards the person for doing good, while the conscience punishes for doing evil. So Buffy's soul was at peace, in Heaven, because her overactive conscience was left with the body. She could enjoy the good that she'd done without agonizing over the people she failed to save.

Whatever the reason for saving people, AtS was a more compelling series in Season Two than BtVS was in Season Five because of the focus on redemption.

"It was the loneliness that comes from choosing to do evil that made Lilah reach for Wesley, without knowing why, or Darla weep with grief at the thought of being separated from her son, or Lindsay be unable to live with himself after he saw the face of the man who once owned his hand."

I think it is possible for evil creatures to feel a sense of belonging, a camaraderie and still do evil. The Fanged Four flashbacks seems to bear this out -- Darla was genuinely concerned for Angelus when she torched the gypsy village, Spike really did see Angelus as his Yoda, and Dru... well, she's just insane. Prior to Katrina's death, the troika also had a sense of union that they did not have before they went evil. The Gorsches were a family, and cared for each other even in their vampire state -- and so on. I also disagree with the motives you assign Lilah and Lindsay. I don't think there was any emotional connection between Lilah and Wesley -- at least not on Lilah's part. It was just sex -- it could have been anyone. If she had had sex with Angel, that might have been different. She seems to have an "unhealthy attachment" to him. As for Lindsay, he could live with himself. Last we saw, he was still alive and still wore the stolen evil hand. I am reminded of Claudius' repentance speech in Hamlet, where the king recognizes that he cannot repent while he still hold possession of the things he committed the crime for (Gertrude and the crown). Lindsay made good progress, but he still needs work. He did not, as Faith did, turn himself into the authorities and expose the machinations of W&H.

My feeling is that redemption is important, especially on AtS and it is the presence of the soul, and the prospect of an afterlife, that makes it important. The afterlife has been addressed from both side -- a saved person who returns from the dead experienced inexpressible peace, a damned person (Darla) returns with no recollection and is filled with a strong enough sense of loss that she talks to Angel about whether or not there is a Hell.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: I agree with everything you say re: Buffy -- Arethusa, 10:04:05 09/02/02 Mon

Yes, Angel was instrumental in saving Faith, Darla and Lindsey. When I said he couldn't save them, I meant only they could make the decision to turn their backs on evil in the end. After Angel helped Faith, she still ran away, but she came back on her own-if Faith hadn't decided to accept Angel's words, his help would have been useless. Same with Lindsey-he turned his back on Angel's help for a corner office, but finally decided after he saw W&H treat a man he knew slightly as a living donor bank to quit the firm. It was his decision in the end. Human Darla changed because of Angel's heroism and self--sacrifice, but he still couldn't save her because he couldn't control the actions of W&H.

If Faith, Lindsay and Darla would have been saved regardless of Angel's actions by their own free will, what was the point of Angel trying so hard? He could have left them to their own devices, to swing towards hellfire or heaven according to their individual preferences.

That's my point. All Angel could do is try to help them, for his own sake, for the sake of doing good. He couldn't force them to do anything, or control the outcome. When Angel failed to rescue Darla, he felt that meant everything he was doing was useless, hopeless. Since he hoped that saving Darla would help redeem himself, he was crushed, and began a downward spiral that, ironically, ended with Darla's rejection of evil (herself) so good can live (Connor, whom she said was the only good that ever came from them-little did she know).

Angel wasn't at peace during his gray period-he was empty, numb, ice-cold. It was "perfect despair." (Reprise) Being good is a constant, painful struggle for everyone in both shows, as in real life.

I can't say for sure what a soul is. I believe Wedon has said it's a moral compass, and that sounds like conscience to me.

Yes, the Fanged Four do have a camaraderie, a sense of belonging so strong that it keeps them together for decades. But Angel tells Holtz and Jimmy in "Heartthrob,"* that they'd all just as soon betray each other, and they did-Angelus and Darla betrayed each other if convenient,** Angelus began taking Dru from Spike, Spike betrayed Angelus to Buffy, and Darla left Angel when he was souled.
I don't think there was an emotional connection between Lilah and Wesley-I think her yearning for some type of connection might have made her sleep with Wesley. She could have just slept with him as part of her campaign against AI. But why is she still talking to her mother, who evidently didn't even know who she is? She says she doesn't have a conscience, so why do more than send a check? (Or do anything at all?)

Redemtion is important. That's why Angel still tries to save others. But why he does it has changed.


*Elisabeth to Darla: "I heard he trapped you both in a barn and *you* fled, leaving him to die."

James: "It's not true."

Angelus looking at Darla: "It's entirely true. She hit me with a shovel, wished me luck and rode off on our only horse."

**ANGELUS: (to Holtz) He's in love, it's all very passionate and befuddlin'. Tell you what, how 'bout I give you him and the women...

Holtz looks interested. James can't believe it.
ANGELUS: They're down at the docks.

Both quotes by psyche, from "Heartthrob."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>You evoked whitman... -- aliera, 11:30:28 09/02/02 Mon

Throughout our entire lives we all seek a close connection to others-maybe it's a return to the closeness we experienced with our mothers, or a need to conquer loneliness, or a desire to be reunited with God-there are many many theories and no clear answers. The acts of kindness give us the sense of union with others that acts of selfishness and other evils do not. It is doing good that makes us feel we "contain multitudes." (I love Whitman, too.) It was the loneliness that comes from choosing to do evil that made Lilah reach for Wesley, without knowing why, or Darla weep with grief at the thought of being separated from her son, or Lindsay be unable to live with himself after he saw the face of the man who once owned his hand.

"I celebrate myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good as belongs to you."

Sorry, no self control...that's me!

[> [> [> [>Re: death of Billy Fordham -- mucifer, 17:46:42 08/24/02 Sat

I totally agree with you I'm a pediatric oncology nurse and have patients with brain tumors. I think this Buffy episode was excellent use of subtext for someone dying young and being cruel to his friends and the confusing and painful effect that can have on a teen like Buffy. To me the not caring if he kills all his friends was powerful subtext and it really worked well, not to mention his total desperation. It was by far my fav episode til "hush" was aired.

[>I'm irresistably drawn to Neil Gaiman's Death. -- HonorH, 12:55:51 08/23/02 Fri

Can't resist the connection, as I'm currently Gaiman-obsessed. In his "Sandman" series, Death is portrayed as a young woman with a keen sense of humor and a great fondness for the souls she leads into the afterlife. She's the most sensible and grounded of her siblings, the Endless, repeatedly kicking her favorite brother, Dream, out of his broods. It frankly bums her out that humans don't look forward to seeing her more, as she only comes to guide them from one state of being to another.

Death was a gift to Buffy. She gave it, giving her life in the place of Dawn's, and she also received it, finding peace for the first time since her Calling. This leads me to believe Buffy has no fear of death anymore. However, as of the end of the season, I think the difference is that Buffy no longer fears *life*, either. She'll live her life to the fullest, and when Death comes for her, Buffy will greet her as an old friend. Which will be nice for both of them.

(On a side note, Elena Zovatto has a couple of really intriguing BtVS/Sandman xovers in which Buffy meets Death. They're at FanFiction.net, which will be back up tomorrow.)

[> [>Re: the same bloody question answered -- Just George, 17:16:25 08/23/02 Fri

Quote from FFL, via Psyche and Joan the English Chick:


Spike: "Every day you wake up, itıs the same bloody question that haunts you: is today the day I die? Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later itıs gonna catch you. And part of you wants it. . . not only to stop the fear and uncertainty, but because youıre just a little bit in love with it. Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day. That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know: Whatıs it like? Where does it lead you? And now you see, thatıs the secret. Not the punch you didnıt throw or the kicks you didnıt land. She never wanted it. Every Slayer. . . has a death wish. Even you. The only reason youıve lasted as long as you have is youıve got ties to the world. . . your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but youıre just putting off the inevitable. Sooner or later, youıre gonna want it. And the second‹the second‹that happens. . . You know Iıll be there. Iıll slip in. . . have myself a real good day. Here endeth the lesson. I just wonder if youıll like it as much as she did."


Now she knows. Buffy knows both sides of death, causing it and what happens next. Her death and resurrection gives her every reason to lose her death wish. She knows that heaven awaits after her heroic life. And without her death wish, and with her ties to the world rebuilt, Buffy just might live as long as she wants to. Maybe forever.

I can dream.

-JG

[> [> [>Lovely thought, JG. -- HonorH, 17:19:54 08/23/02 Fri

I hope so as well.

[> [> [>of course, Spike has no real knowledge of any of this -- Dochawk, 17:28:15 08/23/02 Fri

Spike is totally making this up. Unless he has had some relationship with slayers we don't know, he has no reason to know any of this. He is doing what he does throughout season 4, spin to make Buffy and friends doubt and wonder.

He has met 2 slayers that we know of, one the Chinese Slayer spoke no English and Spike speaks no chinese. The second Nicki, we know little about, except that she was pummeling Spike (instead of staking him) and the screen goes black for 5 seconds and their situations are reversed and Spike breaks her neck. There is nothing in either encounter that we see that supports his statement. Neither Kendra or Faith exhibited anything close to this. This statement which so often is used as an example of Spike's insight is nothing but bluster. if Buffy believed it, her response should have been to stake Spike that moment. Nope I don't think you can use this to show Buffy had a death wish at all. (And one still wonders why Spike is able to hit her, there is plenty of intent in what Spike does).

[> [> [> [>Re: slayer death wish -- leslie, 17:52:50 08/23/02 Fri

I don't know, I think you could make a good case for Faith having a death wish. As a general rule, if you are working within a Freudian psychological model, death wishes are manifested by risk-taking, which certainly operates with Faith. Freud also holds that sex and death are intimately related; furthermore, Freud's "death wish" is not the same thing as depression or suicidal ideation, it's a longing for union with the void. Faith's consistent linking of slaying with sex seems to indicate a very Freudian death wish.

Kendra, we really don't know enough about her to make any assumptions, but I think you could argue that at least in the moment of her hypnosis by Dru, she is also in the grip of a death wish again in the sense of union with the void.

Of course, you could also argue that if you're being Freudian, Spike is right because according to Freud, *everyone* has a death wish. Question: how much Freud do you think Spike has actually read?

[> [> [> [>Spike has great insight into humans. -- HonorH, 17:57:50 08/23/02 Fri

He's demonstrated this time and again, from his "You'll never be friends" speech in "Lover's Walk" to his playing with the Scoobies' heads in S4. So I think it's not unreasonable that he would be right about the Slayer death wish. I definitely think it hit close to home with Buffy--hence her discomfort and anger with him for saying it. Also, one must keep in mind that Spike is often Exposition Man for the ME writers. This is how *they* see Buffy.

[> [> [> [> [>Re: Spike has great insight into humans. -- dochawk, 18:08:30 08/23/02 Fri

And Spike frequently fakes it or makes it up. "What kind of demon are you?' "You came back wrong". he stretches and manipulates facts all the time. Yes he is frequently right, but that makes the best liar and manipulator. You have to be correct often enouhg so that the stuff you say is believed. And I don't think Spike was thinking about death wish in any way Fruedian. There is no evidence at all to support his statement. This one statement in particular is so obviously meant to manipulate at this point, Buffy was in the perfect position to believe it all and he took advantage.

[> [> [> [> [> [>But what was the point? -- HonorH, 18:55:10 08/23/02 Fri

Spike couldn't kill Buffy then. He had little to no hope for a relationship with her. She bullied and bribed him into telling her about the other Slayers, and IMHO, he told her what he genuinely thought. Spike, you'll recall, has always had a fascination with Slayers. He's only killed two, but my bet is he's paid attention to the exploits of plenty of others. That makes him as genuine a scholar as the Watchers if it's true.

The structure of the episode also argues against you. Spike starts out his narrative lying like a dog--"I've always been bad" segues into William Wyndham-Spyke, and "I had to get me a gang" cuts straight to Angelus throttling him--but as the narrative progresses, he starts telling Buffy the truth, and by the time we reach the pivotal scene, we're cutting back and forth, reliving the past in its entirety. Spike wasn't *lying*.

So we're left with two theories:
a) Spike's full of crap, as is his theory, or
b) He's onto something there.

I'm going with b. Especially considering that having everything stripped away brought Buffy to her final sacrifice--her death--shows that in a very real way, Spike's theory paid out in full.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: But what was the point? -- auroramama, 18:36:14 08/24/02 Sat

I love the complexity of Spike's message to Buffy in FFL, and its ambiguity. What *was* the point? The audience knows, though Buffy doesn't, that Spike isn't actually in favor of something nasty getting a taste of Buffy, or having itself a really good day, unless, maybe, it's him. So what is he telling her? On several levels:

1) Ha-ha, I may be chipped an' all, but *something* is gonna getcha sooner or later.

2) And I really hope it's me. Because I've wanted to get even with you for years and it still sounds kinda tempting.

3) Besides, fighting and killing each other is great fun, because it's metaphorical sex. Let's have some fun, darling!

4) Although actual kissing would be extremely OK with me too.

5) Aren't you turned on by this discussion of your eventual slaughter? I would have brought you flowers, but I don't know what kind you like. Sex and death goes with everything.

6) How can you treat me this way? I was just trying to be nice!

And of course he was, in his way, which includes the spiritual perversity of a vampire who was made to love another, insane, vampire, and the human perversity of someone who's hopelessly in love with someone who detests him.

I think Spike is right about the average Slayer having a death wish. How could they not? Death is their only constant companion, except for a Watcher who is in the highly ambiguous position of encouraging her to fight the monsters that will eventually kill her. Eventually the loneliness gets to be too much for them.

How does he know this? We're not told explicitly, but I believe we're meant to believe that he learned a lot about the Slayers he fought, simply because he fought them. Action is communication, and the script says that Spike connects completely with the Chinese slayer for that instant before he tosses her away. He doesn't know the literal meaning of what she's saying, but he knows *her*, what she's feeling, through the medium of her body. And she's apologizing. Perhaps she thought she hadn't tried hard enough. Perhaps it was even true.

As for the Slayer in New York, we don't know what happened when the lights went out, but Spike presumably does. And since the Slayer was winning and then she wasn't, is it much of a stretch to assume that she faltered, that she was tempted, perhaps unconsciously, by the chance to lose? I don't think we can assume that Spike was inventing all that.

I wanted at one point to have an angry Buffy tell Spike that by his own confession he never defeated a Slayer; they simply used him to commit suicide. He was just... convenient. But he's not likely to be boasting about that any more, so I suppose she'll never get the chance to say it.

auroramama

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: But what was the point? -- shadowkat, 21:09:44 08/24/02 Sat

"I wanted at one point to have an angry Buffy tell Spike that by his own confession he never defeated a Slayer; they simply used him to commit suicide. He was just... convenient. But he's not likely to be boasting about that any more, so I suppose she'll never get the chance to say it."

I'm not completely sure she didn't. In Wrecked right after he says the line: "I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be...."

She leaps up and more or less tells him: "You were just convienent."

And in FFL? When tries to have a go at her? She says:

"It will never be you Spike, you're beneath me."

A line he echos in SR : "We were never together. She'd never sink so low as me."

So I think she did in her own way. And in a way that probably hurt far more than what you mention would have.

Agree with everything else you posted by the way! Excellent post.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Pausing briefly to bow down before FFL -- ponygirl, 08:46:01 08/26/02 Mon

Nothing really to add to the great posts by you, HonorH and shadowkat, auroramama, but felt inspired to say once more to the world how much I love FFL. The whole alley sequence, the intercutting and final unifying of past and present; the range of emotions we're meant to feel towards Spike: pity, fear, then pity and fear again. And finally the last scene on the porch with Buffy: Spike starting to move beyond his sad, blustering, dangerous unlife or back on the wheel again, forever the fool? Sooo good...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Pausing briefly to bow down before FFL -- auroramama, 20:09:27 09/02/02 Mon

It's just amazing work, and it stands up to repeated viewing and endless consideration remarkably well.

[> [> [> [>Hopefully, we'll get a better understanding -- Dochawk, 09:11:39 08/25/02 Sun

With Doug Petrie's commentary when its out in October.

[>maybe we can narrow it down a little -- anom, 21:19:56 08/25/02 Sun

Good question, PT, & well-thought-out answer(s). The 1st slayer also said, "Love will lead you to your gift." This seems to apply to some of your possibilities more than others, & may support the idea that they fit in with "Death is your gift" better.

"1. Death as gift= sacrificing her own life to save her sister and the world- her death is her gift to the world and to Dawn."

Definitely has to do w/love.

"2. Death as gift= slaying. She can do something that no one else can do to save humanity (well, ok, Faith can to do it too, but isn't she locked up?)"

Seems more like duty than love, at least for most of the series.

"3. Death as gift= the love of two dead men. The very unlikely love and loyalty of two vampires (both of which have souls) is a rare gift given to her (maybe by the Powers that Be so that she can help on their roads to redemption)."

Love-related, but did love lead to it? Which comes 1st?

"4. Death as gift= the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow. "Death is you gift" meaning that she can die but never really be killed---how many people can claim that?"

Hard to call--the 1st slayer made it sound like it was Buffy's love ("You are full of love) that would lead her to her gift. But in these cases it was the love of her friends that brought her back. Maybe in terms of that love being mutual? (BTW, what was the 3rd time? Prophecy Girl, The Gift, & what?)

"5. Death as gift= killing Angel/Angelus and sending him to a hell demension. Here, death was again her gift to the world; she sacrificed the man that she loved to keep the world from being sucked in by Acathla."

Again, a hard call. Did she give this gift out of love, or was her love for Angel overcome by her duty to the world (not to mention self-preservation)? I don't think she saved the world because she loved it; she seemed to feel more that she had to. There's also the question of whether this counts as death, since Angel remained undead.

"6. Death as gift= the destruction of the mayor and again, the saving of Sunnydale. She again orchestrated and carried out (with help) something that no one else could have done. She sacrificed the school to save the town---death was her gift to her classmates upon graduation."

Did love lead to this gift? Maybe not love for the whole class, but for her friends? Again, hard to define. In another sense, it was not Buffy's love but the Mayor's--for Faith--that enabled Buffy to kill him after his transformation, so you could say that it was his love that led Buffy to the gift of his death, or at least to the way to give that gift.

[> [>How many times has Buffy died? -- Sophist, 10:33:27 08/26/02 Mon

the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow.

I have seen other posts suggesting that Buffy "died" in Villains, but I don't get it. I have watched Villains and re-read the shooting script, but Buffy clearly was not dead when Willow entered the operating room. Willow may very well have saved her life, but we'll never know if the doctors would have done so anyway. Why do you count this as Willow bringing her back?

[> [> [>Re: How many times has Buffy died? (season 6 spoilers) -- Rob, 21:15:48 08/26/02 Mon

I think that this was more of a symbolic "bringing her back to life" in order to parallel with her resurrection of Buffy earlier in the year. Her later line to Buffy in the car (Buffy: But you're using magic...; Willow: If I wasn't, you'd be dead.) therefore can be seen to refer to both instances.

Also, I believe that Tara's death was cosmically linked with Buffy's resurrection, the price Willow had to pay for the messing with nature and the sacrifice of the fawn, and that the fact that Tara and Buffy are both shot and brought to the brink of death almost simultaneously (Buffy lives, Tara dies) was meant to again underline this theme.

Literally, no, I don't think Willow again resurrected Buffy in this episode (in other words, Buffy had not yet "gone into the white light"--perhaps the doctors could have saved her)...but, symbolically, she did again restore her life. And that' s really all that counts in the Whedonverse, isn't it?

Rob

[> [> [> [>Cosmic linking (S6 Spoilers) -- meritaten, 23:29:51 08/26/02 Mon

The possible linking of Tara's death with Buffy's resurrection is intrersting. Do you think Willow will see that and feel responsible for Tara's death?

[> [> [> [> [>Re: Cosmic linking (S6 Spoilers) -- Rob, 06:38:20 08/27/02 Tue

Here is another chain in the link...or something like that. ;o)

After Willow killed the fawn, she carved out the heart...which is where Tara was later shot.

Regarding whether Willow will feel responsible for Tara's death, I don't know, but (although I adore Willow) she should. But then again, although Willow never verbally claimed responsibility, perhaps she does feel it, subconsciously. Perhaps she wouldn't have turned dark had she not, at some level deep inside her, felt responsibility for being the person who set all of the bad things that happened this year in motion. Perhaps the darkness and quest for veangance against Warren was Willow's ultimate way to attempt to completely deny her own responsibility in the situation. Perhaps the lady did protest too much...

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Cosmic linking (S6 Spoilers) -- Sergio, 10:03:42 08/27/02 Tue

But Osiris' messanger was very clear to delink the two. Tara's death was a human death made by human hands, not a mystical death, which Osiris (and therefore Willow) could reverse. Because it wasn't a mystical death, I doubt Willow will feel that linkage (though she will still have guilt.... if we hadn't tarried so long in the bedroom etc).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [>Re: Cosmic linking (S6 Spoilers) -- Rob, 22:59:21 08/27/02 Tue

Didn't say Tara's death was mystical. It was carried out in a completely human fashion, which, yes, is why it couldn't be reversed. But that does not mean that on some level, it was not fated in the stars by Willow's actions.

I've compared this to Oedipus in the past. He was fated to kill his father and marry his mother, which he did. Even though it was written in the stars that this would happen, and he was powerless to fight the will of the gods, he was still responsible for his actions.

The comparison works only up to a point, though. I do not believe that the bullet was definitely drawn to Tara's body by the Powers That Be...but I do think that the stage was set for her death the instant Willow killed that fawn and later used the heart to resurrect Buffy.

Had Willow not brought Buffy back to begin with, Warren would not have been after Buffy later with a gun, and would therefore have not killed Tara.

That is, in a nutshell, the most simplistic way of explaining Willow's part in Tara's death. But it runs much deeper than that...

Willow has much more responsibility in this than just the immediate thoughts that they didn't have to tarry in the bedroom so long. She gave away her life and her love for magic from early on in the season. Tara's death was clearly not just a tangential event, but is very clearly tied in with the thematic whole of the year, and was set in motion since "Bargaining." One could argue that her demise has been foreshadowed ever since "Tough Love" and possibly even earlier.

Rob

[> [> [> [>More Cosmic Linkage (AtS spoilers) -- HonorH, 19:08:34 08/27/02 Tue

I've always seen Darla's pregnancy and Connor as a sort of cosmic balancing act: Darla is given a life, a soul, and a chance for redemption in return for those taken from her in "The Trial." Connor completes the life cycle she accepted in that episode. She accepted her death, and that death was taken forcibly by Drusilla, Lindsey, and W&H. So later, she's given a child, and to give that child life, she must die. She accepts this, completing her own life.

Of course, I've also got a pet theory that Darla's soul has been reincarnated into Connor. That'd up the irony factor/twisted family dynamic!

[> [> [>Re: How many times has Buffy died? -- Purple Tulip, 12:16:03 08/28/02 Wed

Technically she did die, but only briefly. When Willow sent the doctors out of the room, Buffy flat-lined. Where I come from, if you flat-line, you die. But then she pulled the bullet out of her chest and Buffy came back to life. That is what I was refering to.

[> [> [> [>Re: How many times has Buffy died? -- Dochawk, 13:49:39 08/28/02 Wed

Ummmmmm. First off I have looked at that scene frame by frame and she never flat lined. certainly not for the requisite time necessary to pronounce someone dead. And I have unfortunately pronounced several hundred people dead.

[> [> [> [> [>Willow blew out the electrical equipment -- Sophist, 17:07:44 08/28/02 Wed

In the scene in the Magic Box, Willow blew out the lights when she came in. The same thing happened to the electrical equipment in the hospital. It wasn't that Buffy died, it's that the monitors went kablooey.

[> [> [>Number of Buffy deaths (Villains spoilers) -- Scroll, 00:34:35 09/02/02 Mon

Buffy flatlined in "Villains" so I guess that counts as her third death, even if it was for 5 seconds. Of course, it's debatable whether she really did flatline because the heart-monitoring equipment was going haywire when magicked-up Willow entered the OR. It's hard to tell.

[> [>not that this hasn't been fun (it has!), but i was hoping... -- anom, 20:29:31 08/28/02 Wed

...we could discuss my main point, about how "Love will lead you to your gift" might be related to whether/how death is still Buffy's gift, & whether it supports some of Purple Tulip's interpretations of death as her gift more than others. If anyone wants to pick up on this, you can review my post above, "maybe we can narrow it down a little."

Of course, w/my luck this will be archived before it goes any further....

[> [> [>Too tired to comment now, but I'm trying to help anom out by delaying the archive death for a while. -- Rob, 22:50:33 08/28/02 Wed

Some nice person, please respond! :o)

Rob

[> [> [> [>aw...gee, thanks, rob! -- anom, 20:48:46 09/01/02 Sun

And well worth the effort, w/shadowkat's post below. But don't let that stop you from making your own comments when you're less tired!

[> [> [>okay i'll bite: Did love lead her to her gift? -- shadowkat, 21:42:38 08/31/02 Sat

It's late. I'm bored. And can't sleep. So going to attempt to decipher this and come up with an answer.

You said:
"I was hoping we could discuss my main point, about how "Love will lead you to your gift" might be related to whether/how death is still Buffy's gift, & whether it supports some of Purple Tulip's interpretations of death as her gift more than others. "

From re-reading your post and Purple Turlips a couple of times, I think this is what you're asking - 1. How did Love
lead Buffy to her Gift which is Death?
(am I right?) and 2) how do Purple Turlip's examples fit with it?

To answer this we first have to figure out what Whedon and Company mean by the words: Love, Death, Forgive, and Give.
If memory serves (too lazy and connection too slow to check Psyche) - the First Slayer said: "You're afraid you lost it?
The ability to love? You haven't. You are filled by love. It is blinding. But it is painful. You must Risk the Pain, the Slayer draws strength from Pain. Forgive, Give, Love.
Love will bring you to your gift." Beat. "Death is your gift."

So what in the heck did the first slayer mean?

Buffy thinks she means: Death is Buffy's Gift. And Love will bring Death. ie. I'm a killer. I kill everyone I love.
Buffy was always a literalist. Not great with the metaphor's Buff.

Death does not necessarily mean literal death. And love does not necessarily mean sex, romance, or physical love or for that matter others love for her or vice versa or one thing.

Herein lies our problem and probably the difficulty with communication in general - the meanings of words. Some words can mean numerous things. So we get caught up in arguments about semantics. I've had heated arguements with people over the use of a dang word! So believe me I know.
(Praying doesn't happen now.)

So to narrow it down, I'm going to ask a few questions:

What do you think Love means - not literally, metaphorically? What do you think Death means? And what does forgive mean? What does Give mean? What does Pain mean?

I think it means, and this is intuitive so bear with me:
Love...love not of just friends or self or people, but ability to love anything. Buffy was able to love Angel, knowing he was a killer. She loved him after he killed Ms. Calendar. Buffy has the ability to love demons and man. Buffy's love is blinding? So blinding it has caused a soulless demon to fall in love with her. Have you asked yourself why? Not because she's hot, (I'd argue Harmony is actually just as hot. As is Willow. Of course I'm a woman and heterosexual, so wouldn't know, but whatever - you get the point.) But perhaps because Buffy has the emotional capability to care about everyone. All-encompassing love. What does she say in The Gift? "I love you all - but I can't kill my sister?" She clearly even loves Spike in a way...won't stake him, allows him to join them (not romantically). But she is afraid of this love inside her, because it hurts so much. To love hurts = pain.

Everytime Buffy loves, someone stabs her. She loves Angel, he turns on her. She loves her father, he abandons her. She loves Giles, he poisons her. She loves her mother, she dies.
But what she doesn't see is the positives. it's a bit like looking at a glass as seeing it as half full. Her father didn't abandon Buffy so much as Joyce and stayed for awhile in contact with her, just her, because he loved her. Buffy loved Joyce enough to keep Joyce going through her illness, b/c of Buffy Joyce's last days on earth were her best and Buffy let Joyce go in Forever. Buffy's love of Angel prevents Angel from dying in Amends and helps Angel go forward on his quest. Buffy's love of Faith - provides Buffy with the answer to kill the Mayor. Faith gives it to her. (Did she love Faith? Yes - when she wakes up from her mutual dream with Faith, she kisses her sister-self on the forehead. If she didn't care about Faith, Faith's betrayles would not have hurt so much. And if Faith didn't care and love Buffy, Faith wouldn't hate herself so much.) Faith shows Buffy the key to the Mayor, which is what? His love of Faith. What kills the Mayor is NOT Buffy or the students or the bomb, but his weakness, he follows Buffy into the building because she taunts him with the knife he gave Faith. She taunts him with his love of Faith. Angel? Willow brings Angel's soul back through her love of Buffy. Angel's love of Buffy is the reason Angelus goes mad and tries to destroy the world and is the reason Spike goes against Angelus (Angelus has gone mad). And it is Buffy's love that
brings Angel back, he is a raving beast, but she forgives him and cares for him.

Forgive? We've discussed this before. Buffy loves Angel enough to forgive him when no one else, including half the audience won't. Her forgiveness of Angel lends him the strength to move on and become a Champion instead of crumble
and commit suicide. Buffy forgives Spike out of her love of his actions on the behalf of her and Dawn, her acceptance of him into her world - saves her friends and Dawn's lives on numerous occassions and sends him on a better path. Once again she has done something half the audience and the others can't do. Forgiveness is a weird thing. Buffy's forgiveness of Faith in Graduation day - allows her to see clearly to destroy the school. And her ability to help Faith, albeit reluctantly in Sanctuary helps motivate Faith to turn herself in. Something she may not have done if Buffy had not appeared and helped save her from the Council.
Remember Angel talks about how important Buffy's treatment of Faith is here.

Risk the Pain. Buffy risks the pain of love. Loving those who do not appear to deserve it is painful. It is easy to love those who do. It is easy and not painful to love someone who is nice to us and gives us gifts. But how do you love a vampire? How do you love a whining sister who didn't exist until a few months ago and is a ball of energy and holding you back from the fun? How do you love friends who occassionally hurt you? But by risking the pain, accepting they will hurt her, numerous times, look what Buffy gains? The SG. Devoted followers. People who risk their lives to protect Sunnydale after she died and risk their lives to resurrect her.

Death. What is death? Is it the end? The grave? You see I don't believe that and neither does the show. Death often means birth. A chance to be renewed. Buffy's love renews those around her, kills off the old self and brings forth a new one. Confused? Let me explain or try to by going down the examples:

1."1. Death as gift= sacrificing her own life to save her sister and the world- her death is her gift to the world and to Dawn."

How about - Buffy love of Dawn enables her to jump from the tower of her adolescence, to kill her childlike, adolescent self, so she can come back reknewed - a stronger, more responsible slayer, capable of leadership and of handling her own darkness. Something new. She dies in order to be reborn. Her love of her sister provides her with the courage to jump. Her love of her friends - provides them with the desire to bring her back. Her love of Dawn and ability to forgive Spike, keeps Spike there all summer to ensure Dawn's safety.

"2. Death as gift= slaying. She can do something that no one else can do to save humanity (well, ok, Faith can to do it too, but isn't she locked up?)"

"Seems more like duty than love, at least for most of the series."

Again I think you're interpretating it literally. Metaphorically - she slays to provide the evil demons with a release? Or perhaps death is providing them with a sense of renew. Or maybe - Buffy doesn't slay indiscriminately.
She decides intuitively who to kill and who not to. And often allows demons to live. Clem. the demons at the Wedding. Angel. Spike. Harmony. She slays with the view of keeping the peace. She loves Sunnydale and all within it.


"3. Death as gift= the love of two dead men. The very unlikely love and loyalty of two vampires (both of which have souls) is a rare gift given to her (maybe by the Powers that Be so that she can help on their roads to redemption)."

Why did the vamps love Buffy? They didn't love the other slayers. And they love Buffy more than they love their undead companions. Why? Because Buffy's acceptance of them and understanding is beyond their ken. She grants them another lease on eternity, a way of seeing their death and life differently. Through Buffy - Spike begins to change, begins to see the world through a different lense. As does Angel. She shows them something they did not see. Because she is NOT just a slayer, she lives life fully. As Spike puts it - "your ties to the world". She is emotional and open. And devoted. Both Angel and Spike watch her fight for her friends and watch their devotion to each other. Buffy's mother saves her. "A Slayer with friends and family wasn't in the brochure." In Prophecy Girl, the high school boy, Buffy rejected for the dance, saves her life, he cares that much for her and Angel witnesses this. Sometimes its the devotion of others for a person that can affect you the most. When Spike is neutered - Buffy and her gang take him in, this must startle him a little.

So no, I disagree the PTB never intended for Spike or Angel to fall for Buffy as they did. Whedon isn't a fatalist. This happened in spite of PTB. The PTB never saw Buffy coming. Buffy obtained Spike and Angel's love completely on her own, PTB had zip to do with it.

"4. Death as gift= the ability to die three times and be brought back every single time- the first time by Xander, the second and third times by Willow. "Death is you gift" meaning that she can die but never really be killed---how many people can claim that?"

Why was she brought back? Xander did it? Willow? Why?
Because Xander and Willow love Buffy. Buffy is their light, their hero. Giles goes against the council and actually saves her life in Helpless - why? "You have a father's love for the girl." Clearly unprecedented. Joyce saves Buffy from Spike - again why? Love. Spike attempts to save Dawn from Doc and doesn't reveal Dawn to Glory. Why? Love. Willow brings Buffy back from the Grave. Why? Love. "This is Buffy, Xander. I can't leave her to a hell dimension."
Willow pulls the bullet out of Buffy's chest. Why? Love.
Buffy hasn't died like the other slayers, because unlike Kendra, Nikki, Etc - Buffy's friends have brought her back.
She has opened her heart to them, forgiven them their accusations and painful acts, allowed them to fight her fight and saved their lives. Think about Graduation Day?
Did she fight it alone? No, the students followed her.
And how about that little reward she was given? Class Protector? And oh Primeval? They joined with her. They didn't have to. Buffy lives not because she's supernatural or the PTB want her too, Buffy lives because of love and because of love she has sacrificed her life. Death =Life
Love is the connection. It's circular.


"5. Death as gift= killing Angel/Angelus and sending him to a hell demension. Here, death was again her gift to the world; she sacrificed the man that she loved to keep the world from being sucked in by Acathla."

Actually I think we need to think about who helped. Willow gave Angel his soul back due to her love of Buffy. Xander didn't tell Buffy aiding her in her battle for love of Buffy and helped rescue Giles. Spike helped due to love of Dru and a grudging respect for Buffy? Angel died for love of Buffy and was reborn.

"6. Death as gift= the destruction of the mayor and again, the saving of Sunnydale. She again orchestrated and carried out (with help) something that no one else could have done. She sacrificed the school to save the town---death was her gift to her classmates upon graduation."

"Did love lead to this gift? Maybe not love for the whole class, but for her friends? Again, hard to define. In another sense, it was not Buffy's love but the Mayor's--for Faith--that enabled Buffy to kill him after his transformation, so you could say that it was his love that led Buffy to the gift"

Faith's love for Buffy and Buffy's forgiveness of Faith, allowed her to discover the Mayor's weakness, his love of Faith, enabling Buffy to destroy the Mayor. Also the love of her friends - helped Buffy in this goal. She did not do it alone. Without love? She may have and would have lost.


Hope that mad intiutive rambling made sense. Now I'll go to bed. As Earl would say: Take it and run. ;-) SK

[> [> [> [>Re: okay i'll bite: Did love lead her to her gift? -- auroramama, 20:23:19 09/02/02 Mon

Oh my. That's lovely. Maybe the post of yours that I've enjoyed the most. ("I always liked that best.")

"If you dance at every wedding, you'll cry at every funeral." Garth Brooks made a fuss about standing inside the fire, but to me that's like bragging about being an oxygen-breather. How many people have a choice? You're a dancer, you dance, you cry. And Buffy is the Chosen One because she's gotta dance. This is the first season where I think Buffy actually had the choice to make, and it took her all season to do it.

Angel and Spike both loved her because of that life force, that endless involvement at any cost, that torch of love. But Spike stuck by her even when the torch was quenched. (Angel never had that opportunity.) He helped bring her back to life, no matter how she burned his hands. He may have been evil throughout, but that was no evil act. That was a gift.

auroramama, incoherent and past her bedtime


'William' and Buffy
-- yabyumpan (and not ashamed to say it), 07:31:12 08/24/02 Sat

What is the significance of Buffy calling Spike 'William'? She's done so on several occasions, usually when she's actually relating to him as an equal in some way. It stikes me that calling him William is a very intimate thing to do, it feels like Buffy's acknowledging and speaking to the man and not the monster. I don't remember her ever calling Angel 'Liam'.
In someways the whole thing with Angel was like a fairy tale, he was tall, dark, hansome, mysterious -living in the 'castle', she was young, a virgin, wanting to escape from her life in some way, not just the slaying but school and 'normality'. With Angel in some ways, she lived the dream of every school girl.
Three years on and the school girl's gone, now there's reality and responsability, she needs someone who's 'real',not 'mysterious' but fully available, a friend. They've known each other a long time, seen each other go through a lot of changes; it seems to me that when she calls him 'William' there is an intimacy and closeness that was never there with Angel, she is relating to who he really is and not as a fantasy.
I don't really know or care that much where they go from here, i'm not a S/B or B/A shipper, I just found her calling him 'William' interesting so I thought I'd share.

[> As You Were -- HonorH, 07:36:38 08/24/02 Sat

When Buffy addressed Spike as "William" in her breakup speech, it struck me that for the first time since they kissed in OMWF, she was treating him like a man, not a monster. He had been the avatar of death to her--the killer of two Slayers, with whom she had sex after she found out he could kill her, too. But when she came to the knowledge that she was using him to escape from life, and it wasn't right, and it wasn't doing either of them any favors, she went to him, looked at the man who loved her rather than the monster she wanted him to be, and addressed that man. It was a deeply touching moment, and, in a way, more intimate than all the sex they'd shared.

[> [> Re: As You Were -- Purple Tulip, 08:29:23 08/24/02 Sat

I agree. I saw Buffy as adressing the man inside that really did love her. In a way, she was acknowledging his love for her and that it was very real. She was trying to be kind to the man because I think that that's the part of him that she herself cared about. It was the monster that she hated, the monster that she could never trust ("I could never trust you enough for it to be love"). And while I too thought that this scene was sweet, I also thought that it was a slap in the face because Buffy was finally seeing William and that still wasn't enough- she still broke it off.

[> [> [> "Slap in the face" isn't the phrase I'd choose. -- HonorH, 15:40:23 08/24/02 Sat

Just because it sounds so deliberately cruel. Mind you, I agree with your post as a whole, but Buffy wasn't trying to be cruel. She just couldn't help but hurt him by breaking up with him--hey, who can? She saw William, but that part of him wasn't enough to make up for all the things that kept them apart. Wasn't his fault, wasn't hers, it just wasn't gonna work, and the longer they dragged it out, the more it'd hurt them both.

Of course, at that point, I think the last thing Buffy needed was a lover--*any* lover. She needed her friends, and should have talked to them--really talked to them, even though hearing all she'd been going through would be hard on them. It's a lesson she learned by the end of SR, when she talked to Xander and said, "I should have told you." It's a lesson she learned in the hole with Dawn, when Dawn said, "You can't protect me." I hope the lesson will stick with her for the rest of the series.

[> Re: 'William' and Buffy -- CW, 08:28:33 08/24/02 Sat

I think part of her calling Spike 'William' is a recognition that while she can't love him, she can appreciate some of his better qualities, which came from his human life. Liam on the other hand was no prize as a human. The development of most of Angel's good qualities comes from the time long after he was dead.

[> [> Re: 'William' and Buffy -- yabyumpan, 12:08:15 08/24/02 Sat

" Liam on the other hand was no prize as a human. The development of most of Angel's good qualities comes from the time long after he was dead."

But only we, the audience would know that. I doubt that Buffy or the WC or anybody else would know what he was like before he was turned.
I think, just as Angel and Buffy's love was 'mythic', so was their view of each other to an extent. They each had idealised images of the other and of themselves. The 'Vampire' and the 'Slayer'.
I think because Buffy and Spike have known each other for longer and have grown from just being slayer/vampire enemies to forming a friendship of sorts, they both can see past the image.

[> Re: 'William' and Buffy -- Rufus, 13:30:12 08/24/02 Sat

This reference to William is also a way of saying how much Buffy may have connected with the man and not the monster....this also hinted at in Afterlife when he made that speech about saving her .....

SPIKE: Uh ... I do remember what I said. The promise. To protect her. (pause) If I had done that ... even if I didn't make it ... you wouldn't have had to jump.

Beat. Buffy still doesn't react, just sits there looking at him.

SPIKE: But I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but ... after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again ... do something different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of different ways ... (softly) Every night I save you.


Also this was mentioned by Jane Espenson in her appearance at the Succubus Club....

Q: About Afterlife -- when Buffy went to Spike's crypt and sat there in silence in Afterlife, why do you think she was there? As the writer of the episode, or just as a fan, what do you think was going through Buffy's mind at that point, and, in particular, during Spike's "Every night I saved you" speech. Because she did -- she sat there in silence and she really didn't say anything.

Jane: She sat there in silence with him there, right? I know which scene it is now. It's been awhile.
I think she didn't know why she was there, except she
wanted to be with someone who wasn't demanding
anything of her and wasn't --

Q: Expecting any?

Jane: Expecting anything. Exactly. Someone who could
understand. Because he has a line that I really liked
where he looks at her hands -- he knows right away
that she crawled out of the grave --

Q: I love that line --

Jane: And it's hard to hear -- the line gets a little lost,
but he says "Done it myself" or been there.

Q: I remember what it was like for me--

Jane: There is an implication that he is identifying with
her because he also crawled out of his own grave.

Q: It also happens in that scene in the crypt, actually,
because she sees his hand or something, she looks --
I don't know, there was another moment in that scene
where they were comparing with him -- don't mind me,
but there's something

Jane: Yeah there was something. Not sure what it was.

Q: It's nagging me.
Q: It happened so long ago.

Jane: It feels like a long time ago to me too.

Q: Before the musical, after the musical,
and really really after the musical.

Jane: But yeah -- I think that's what it was, and then when he says "I've saved you lots of times", I think all we
can do is know what we would be thinking and the kind
of person Buffy is that she has to be thinking
Wow, what a guy!


The irony of all this is that while Spike thought Buffy needed a little monster in her men, she only connected with Spike at his most human. I think what is going on is that the writers were preparing for the human/soulled Spike....showing the potential in the monster that is stifled by the lack of a moral compass. While still soulless, Spike is too unpredictable to trust....

J: She protects him with Dawn because she has no reason
not to protect him with Dawn. He did not; he was...
Buffy knows him. Buffy's spent a lot of time with him. She
knows he's evil. She knows -- he surprised her with the rape; she did not know he was capable of that. But she has no reason to think he would attack Dawn, and it was a dire
situation with very few choices about what to do with Dawn.


Q: Okay. Right.

J: And the missing him?

Q: That's tough.

J: It's very tough. It's very tough. I think what we could say is that she's missing the man he could have been. She's missing --

Q: The potential?

J: The potential, and, when someone betr -- reveals
themselves to be not what you thought they were, you
miss who you thought they were.

Q: Right.

J: And I think she was missing the Spike that she thought she knew.


I think that the situation with Spike had become a bit of the moral quagmire that was mentioned before season six started......many of the fans had begun to see Spike as a victim, blameless in whatever he had done. Season six may not have gone down well for some, but it was very deliberate at showing the difference between the man and the influence of the demon infection on the host. Buffy got to know the man that had surfaced from the monster, more clearly visible because he had been neutered by the chip. Had the chip never been placed in Spikes head, their dance would have ended in a more fatal way than in Smashed.

When Spike realized that Buffy no longer could trust him, when he could himself see why....that is what made him go make himself into something that perhaps Buffy could care for without worrying about the consequences of trusting someone who is capable of tenderness then the next moment with someone else become a monster. Spike was trying to remake himself into that person Buffy thought she got to know....it also makes it understandable why vampires are so dangerous that shell of humanity is the perfect lure for victims.

[> [> Love this post, Ruf. -- HonorH, 17:56:19 08/24/02 Sat

I love what JE has to say about Buffy's expression in "Villains"--that Buffy was missing the man she thought she knew. It explains it a whole lot better than the "Buffy's pining for Spike" theorists. I also love what you say about the quagmire they found themselves in re: Spike. In order to be true to their own mythology, they had to shake up the Spike Sanctifiers. It was a risky move, and probably lost them some idealist fans, but the fact is, Spike couldn't be truly good in the Jossverse without a soul. Their universe, their rules, and I have respect for them for sticking to them.

[> [> Been thinking about this a bit - fanbase reactions Living conditions -- shadowkat, 21:02:16 08/24/02 Sat

On the whole? I agree with everything you said Rufus.

My thoughts for what they are worth on what the fans wanted and why we are still arguing about this:
I think part of the problem we fans have is the whole ambiguity about the soul and what we wanted from the storyline. Or perhaps what I should state is what happens when the reader or audience begins to project their own philosophy, own subjective wants and desires and experiences on the artform that they are watching and reading. Look at all the fanfic - and I've read a good bit of it (everyone who has posted a link on this board) and while it is very good and entertaining and well written, I can say (hope don't offend) none of it reflects what is really going on in the show or what's in the minds of the show's writers. It can't. That's impossible. What it reflects is the individual writer's fantasies and desires for these characters, what we want Joss and Company to do. The reason I mention fanfic - is to point out that this is a reflection of what the fanbase generally wants and how it often does not reflect what is actually in the show.

Several of us, for reasons that have very little to do with btvs, wanted Spike to be redeemed by love. (Unfortunately this is a message the writers don't want to push. They don't believe anyone can be redeemed by love. See David Fury's Interview on www.bloodyawfulpoet.com and succubus club.) Another part of the fanbase wanted the exitenstial path - they wanted to see Spike become redeemed without a soul to follow his own path, without prophecies or rules, the dog going against the grain, the demon being good against all the rules. (Again this is something inside the hearts of the audience not the writers of the show.)

The problem? The writers inadvertently encouraged these feelings in their audience by drawing an incredibly fascinating and ambiguous villain. So the audience gets annoyed when they don't come true and holds out hope that maybe they will eventually - after all the show isn't over yet.

Not all of us, but a good percentage of the fan base, if fanfic and websites are any indication, felt the "bad boy"
storyline, where he may seem good, there may be potential there, but he's inherently evil at heart and will hurt you was the most disappointing storyline and unworthy of the show they'd come to love. HEnce the battles you see on the boards and this thread. Having watched wayyy too much tv in my time, I have to agree. The "bad boyfriend" story they chose is a well-worn and tired tv cliche which has been done on every single twentysomething/thirtysomething/teen show that has an ounce of dramatic impact. Melrose Place did it. 90210 did it. My So Called Life did it. Roseanne did it. All the daytime soaps have done it.
Yes - Btvs gave it a nice twist with the guy going off for soul and not trying to kill her and her not killing him..but
some of the fans were hoping for something bit different.
(Guess ME really doesn't watch much TV ;-) ).

That said, I agree with what Rufus said. Watch Living Conditions Season 4, Btvs again. I did. And it really hit me what the soul thing was. When Buffy gets her soul sucked from her, she is still Buffy, but she is less tolerant of others, she is convinced, more than usual, that the world and everything in it revolves around her, she is jealous of her roommate (when before her roommate, the true soulless one was jealous of her), she doesn't want to share Parker or anyone or anything else. And she thinks killing solves the problems. The world becomes the child's view of it - all about me. Me. ME. Me. The child only empathasizes with others to the extent that they affect the child's orbit. The child only knows right from wrong based on what others tell it or what hurts it. Fire wrong - it burns me. It's not until we grow up, become older that we begin to feel sensations like guilt and remorse. regret.
We begin to realize that our actions have consequences.

The reason they could NOT redeem Spike sans soul is it would ruin the overall metaphor: Vampire arrested development, soul - growth. And Whedon and Company are right in a sense, you shouldn't present a message that loving a killer/sociopath will redeem him. Or loving a bad little boy who steals and fights and hurts people will make him good - what's to keep him from doing it behind your back (just ask a parent of a problem teenager or juvenile delinquent). It doesn't work that way. I've seen one too many people get hurt thinking just that.

What they were trying to do was very ambitious and difficult to pull off - they wanted to show someone struggling to grow up - to move past an arrested and previously fun state. Think about it? It is fun not to think about consequences. To just Take Want Have. But sooner or later we have to grow up and handle the responsibilities and consequences of life. That's the metaphor. And some of us (not all of us) but the bad boys, go kicking and screaming into adult hood and it is not an easy ride. It's why Spike seems so conflicted about getting a soul, part wants to grow up/see the consequences - the other wants to revert to the easy times of preadolescence where he could just have fun, sod the consequences. But he can't revert back, he has to move on. He can't do what Buffy's roommate does in Living Conditions which is fall literally back to childhood not graduate to college. He has to start moving on like Buffy does in that episode. I think that's what they were going for with Spike from Season 4 - Season 7. (It's very different from Angel, hence some of the confusion). It's also not exactly what some people wanted.(hence the reason for all our discussions). Nor have the writers completely pulled it off yet. (Or we wouldn't be debating it.) But I give them a great deal of credit for attempting it and can't wait to see what they do next year to further the metaphor...who knows maybe they'll pull it off next year? Assuming of course I'm right and they aren't doing something entirely different and I haven't projected my own vision and desires on the show. The hazards of being an obsessed fan...apparently are endless. ;-)

[> [> [> This is the best summary of this season's theme/Spike I've encountered. -- Apophis, 23:33:33 08/24/02 Sat

I really think you hit the nail on the head, shadowkat. Everyone's been yelling and screaming over this season for months now, angry that their particular vision didn't prevail. I believe that your description of Spike's quest to "adulthood" both perfectly describes the character's actions over the course of this season and the season's overall theme. It's also nice to have someone acknowledge that Joss's universe has certain rules. Just as you can't travel faster than light or create/destroy matter, so too must a vampire possess a soul to be good (at lest in the long term).

[> [> [> Excellent post, shadowkat -- HonorH, 23:46:15 08/24/02 Sat

And don't worry--this incorrigible fanfic writer isn't offended. I know that my stories are just my way of working out my own private theories about the Jossverse. When I hit it on the head, I'm pretty darn happy. When I miss, well, their universe, not mine. *Shrug*

Think you've got a terrific case for Spike being a case of arrested development, too. That's exactly how he struck me. When he says to Buffy, "Love . . . burns and consumes," and she came back, "Until there's nothing left," that, to me, pointed out the difference between them. Buffy had that kind of love with Angel; she's now grown beyond it.

(And don't flame me, B/A 'shippers--I'm not saying they don't still love each other on some level and couldn't get back together, I'm saying they're different people with different needs, and they've both grown as a result of what they've been through together and apart. A B/A relationship that started now would be very, *very* different than the one we saw BtVS S1-3.)

End digression. Spike hasn't grown beyond that type of love. He can't. He can't move into the fully unselfish kind of love Buffy now seeks because he's essentially self-centered. I like to think of a soul as a connection: each soul connects on a deep level to every other soul, and helps us feel that we're part of something larger rather than just ourselves, alone. Spike will be more aware now. He'll see humans not as "walking happy meals," but as fellow souls. He'll become less self-centered, and quite possibly more able to love Buffy in the way she needs, not the way he wants. And that way is very likely *not* romantic or sexual.

[> [> [> [> Some quibbles -- alcibiades, 01:33:34 08/25/02 Sun

"When he says to Buffy, "Love . . . burns and consumes," and she came back, "Until there's nothing left," that, to me, pointed out the difference between them. Buffy had that kind of love with Angel; she's now grown beyond it."

Actually, I don't think she had this with Angel at all -- what she had was the potential of falling into consuming love like that, but because of the curse, they never did fall into it. Instead, ME went for the perfect boyfriend turns into a monster after you sleep with him once metaphor. And then the relationship became arrested in a state of metaphoric and literal non-csonummation until Angel did the "mature" thing, or at least the thing Joyce asked him to, and left.

"End digression. Spike hasn't grown beyond that type of love. He can't. He can't move into the fully unselfish kind of love Buffy now seeks because he's essentially self-centered."

I've got to say that the idea of classifying the Buffy of Season 6 as one who seeks unselfish love makes me a bit queasy. In fact, Season 6 Buffy seems to me to seek no love at all, no ties, nothing to bind into her life. Her selfish use of Spike until the end of AYW, while telling herself it didn't matter because it isn't real and she just wants to feel is a case in point.

About the same time as the interview Rufus quoted above, Jane Espenson also stated that Spike was open to love and Buffy wasn't. I think the reason Season 6 Buffy was seeking "a perfect, unselfish love" from a mate is because it was a pretty good way of protecting herself from feeling anything at all. She didn't want to risk the pain. Last year she was incapable of risking the pain of love with trust -- she certainly didn't generate that kind of relationship of love and trust with Dawn or any of the Scoobies, although she did respond to it in Tara. And even Tara, the exemplar of mature love on the show, is too empassioned to seek to rebuild love with trust slowly with Willow and insteads plunges back into the passion bit and assumes or hopes that the other parts will follow suit. That I think is the more realistic model of what actually occurs in real life between lovers.

No one reaches a point of a perfect, unselfish love with someone right off the bat, unless they are dating a saint -- it's something that takes work and effort and passion and pain -- and Buffy was incapable of feeling anything like that at all last year as she was still in the throes of deep depression. While I think that it was obviously true that she could not trust Spike in many respects, it's only a partial truth to say that is what the problem between them was. And Spike was not entirely incorrect either in seeing it as a dodge or a shield.

In fact, as others have pointed out, we never got to see that story, what would have happened if Buffy had been healthy during her relationship with Spike so that she influenced him to be a better man as in Season 5 and not a worse one specifically by trusting him. Because it was by trusting him in the first place to watch Dawn and her mother through downright desperation, really, that Spike was motivated to begin to change slowly into a better man for her.

One thing you got to say about Spike -- he was perfectly capable of delivering the kind of love he was advocating, flawed as it was. But Buffy was not at all capable of delivering what she was talking about last year until possibly (or possibly not, we don't get to see) after her final epiphany in Grave. In her past relationships, she certainly didn't deliver it with Riley, and not really with Angel either. Angel delivered it to her as he left her.

My own feeling is that in Season 7 the positions are going to reverse. Whatever his feelings about Buffy, Spike with soul is going to think himself below Buffy and totally unworthy of Buffy as a mate and will hold back. And Buffy is going to start reawakening to passion.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Some quibbles -- Dochawk, 08:56:00 08/25/02 Sun

Nicely said. I agree with everything you said. Also I am glad that you didn't say it outright. I agree Buffy of Season 7 will be more passionate (and more quipy but thats besides the point). But, I truly believe that it won't be with Spike. For many reasons, I think it will be someone we haven't met yet.

[> [> [> [> [> Nice post. -- HonorH, 10:32:28 08/25/02 Sun

Although I think by the end of the season, Buffy had reawakened to love and was wanting more from a relationship than Spike could offer her. For most of the season, though, I certainly agree with your analysis.

As for Buffy reawakening to passion, I've gotta say there are two caveats that I have: 1) it won't be with Spike; and 2) I don't think it'll be necessarily sexual. I think we'll see Buffy as the truly happy single gal this coming year.

The above is JMHO, with no spoilers to back me up. I still think I'm right.

[> [> [> [> [> Very well-put, alcibiades. I always enjoy your posts. -- Dyna, 08:57:25 08/27/02 Tue


[> [> [> Re: Nicely put -- Just George, 01:38:51 08/25/02 Sun

I had less problem than some with the "going for a soul" reasoning at the end of S6. It seemed a dramatic necessity. For Spike to continue his story, he needed to show continued growth. To demonstrate growth within the shows' established structure, he needed to ask for and earn a soul.

Some have commented that the Demon's trials were pretty perfunctory for Spike. He had to fight and survive, not confront the wrongs he had done. But, in my mind, the trials weren't how Spike earned his soul. Asking for it earned it. However, if the soul had been given without the trials, Spike himself would not have valued it.

I have assumed for a while that soul-less vampirism was a metaphor for perpetual adolescence. I may have gotten the idea from reading posts on this board! Or maybe I got it after thinking about this quote from the S1 episode Angel, transcript via Psyche:


Angel: "When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesnıt get your soul. Thatıs gone! No conscience, no remorse. . . Itıs an easy way to live."


No conscience, no remorse could easily be translated as living with no responsibly, or adolescence.

Now Spike has shown more conscience and remorse than any other vampire we have seen on BtVS. But not in all things or all the time. He has lapses. Assuming that the basic soul metaphor identified in S1 still holds true (and we have not been given anything is Spike's background or in the celestial mechanics of the show to think otherwise), then it makes sense that Spike couldn't be permanently "good" without a soul.

However, we have seen Spike do "good" in flashes. So, he could make the "good" decision to go for a soul, even though he had every reason to believe (having seen Angel's pain) that having a soul will be not make his life easier or happier. Given this logic, the strongest demonstration of Spike's growth that was available within the canon of the show was his decision to try to get a soul.

Sometimes canon is canon.

I think in S7 Anya will have a similar choice to make. She became human the first time by the actions of another (Giles). Given a choice she would have remained a demon. I think her reverting to demon status after the wedding fiasco was a retreat back to adolescence. In this view, Anya can not journey into adulthood via the actions of another. I suspect that she will have to make a decision to become human again to continue her journey into adulthood.

If Anya does continue her journey (as Spike has) it will be another example of the transformative power of the Scooby Gang. Though they occasionally show negative tendencies, the Scobies, led by Buffy's example, put themselves in mortal danger to help others night in and night out. They get no recompense, no recognition. They do it because it is the right thing to do. This absurdly high standard of conduct rubs off on those they "adopt" into the family. Most of the time, those adopted grow to meet the standard as well.

Finally, SK, I loved your connection to Living Conditions. I had forgotten that Buffy actually has some experience in living with less than a full soul. And it did change her. In comedic ways, but the change was obvious and not flattering. Perhaps it gives Buffy some subconscious understanding of what the soul-less vampires and demons go through. It is also another example of how not having a soul is established as a bad thing in the BtVS universe.

-JG

[> [> [> but you are a very insightful obssessed fan and "see" clearly -- rabbit, 07:19:17 08/25/02 Sun


[> [> [> projection -- anom, 09:46:18 08/26/02 Mon

"Or perhaps what I should state is what happens when the reader or audience begins to project their own philosophy, own subjective wants and desires and experiences on the artform that they are watching and reading. Look at all the fanfic....What it reflects is the individual writer's fantasies and desires for these characters...."

I think this is true not only for fiction but for how many--maybe most--people approach understanding real life & the characters & motivations of other people & peoples. Our assumptions are shaped by the cultures we grow up in & our individual experience within a given culture.

We assume that other people, whether real people or fictional characters, do things for the same reasons we do them, or the reasons we think we would do them...especially if we think we wouldn't. "I wouldn't go on welfare unless...." "I'd only hit someone if...." "If I ever slept w/someone like that, it would mean I was...." And so anyone who does that must be doing it for the same reason. One of my favorite sf authors, Theodore Sturgeon, often wrote stories about people doing things for reasons other than, & even the opposite of, the ones most readers would expect. It's very hard for most of us to conceive that other people may do something for reasons that have nothing to do w/what comes to our minds when we see what they've done.

Same goes for cultures, maybe even more so. All sorts of misunderstandings arise out of perceptions of another culture's greetings, eating habits, gestures, family relations, sexual practices, & almost any aspect of life. Most famously on this board, such an assumption led to redcat's amazing posts on sex & its meaning in pre-western-contact Hawaiian culture. Too often in other contexts cultural misinterpretations lead to conflict on various levels, or are exploited to justify oppression of one group by another. Fanfic is generally less educational than the 1st but less harmful than the 2nd...& when we readers are lucky, more entertaining.

[> [> [> [> Good insights,anom! -- redcat, 19:43:48 08/26/02 Mon

...and thanks for the kind words...

[> [> [> [> [> thanks & you're welcome! -- anom, 22:15:31 08/26/02 Mon

That post is more or less what I would have posted under your post on Hawaiian culture if I'd gotten to it before the thread was archived. Except I don't think I'd thought of the Theodore Sturgeon part back then. Oh yeah, & the fiction part.

[> [> [> Eureka! Synchronicity! factual support for the arrested development metaphor -- Thomas the Skeptic, 10:21:02 08/26/02 Mon

Last night The Learning Channel showed a three-part documentary called "Teenage Species" and in the final hour they gave a vivid demonstration of how, developmentally, teens are not fully human until they finish the last stage of their maturation. Brain researchers did a study where they placed a large number of teen volunteers inside an imaging machine, showed them a series of pictures of people's faces in extremely emotional expressions and then asked the teen's to name the emotion on the person's face. While they were asking them these questions, they were mapping the regions of the brain stimulated by the photos. Consistently, the majority of them failed to identify the expression of fear, saying it looked like anger or sadness. Also, the part of the adult brain that is engaged by seeing someone else in fear (the empathy center, perhaps?) remained dormant in the teen brain. The producers of the documentary made the argument that, although teens own emotions are well-developed their ability to judge and respond appropriately to others was undercooked, so to speak. I think this correlates so well with Spike's souless condition. He could love Buffy but could'nt understand her or anyone else's feelings on some fundamental level because, metaphysically, he was still an adolescent. By ME's standards, now that he has a soul, he can continue the maturation process.

[> [> Re: 'William' and Buffy -- Miss Edith, 12:24:04 08/25/02 Sun

I think its's interesting that you say Spike believed Buffy wanted a little monster in her man. At the beginning of the season when Buffy responded to his gentle, more caring side he was embracing his humanity. He believed that was what Buffy needed from him.
Following the kiss in OMWF Spike is left frustrated when Buffy shuts down. He wants to address their kiss in TR, she freaks and calls him an "evil soulless thing" as if she needs to remind herself of this. Spike being a caring friend obviously unnerved Buffy as he was no longer fitting the box she had categrised him in. Hence her not wanting him to touch her, and punching him when he puts his arm on her. She doesn't want to address the changing nature of the relationship.
In Smashed Spike believes something is wrong with Buffy, she returned lacking humanity. He basically behaves like a leering jerk and punches her in the face challenging her to a fight between opponents. This confirms Buffy's belief about him being evil and only into her for sick reasons "you get off on pain" etc. She rewards his behaviour with sex and from then on Spike believes his inner demon is the turn-on for Buffy. Hence he tries to convince her that she belongs in the dark with him. He did behave somewhat like a human friend when Buffy first returned and neither of them were sure of their place in life.
I was surprised when Buffy did call Spike "William" as I had never felt she did acknowledge him as a human during their sexual relationship. Rather she was confused and didn't know what to make of his behaviour. The only other time I remember her calling him William was in NPLH where I presume she wanted to humiliate him and make him feel small "no one has time for this William". She did seem genuinely torn about what to make of Spike, not unlike the audience. In HB she treats him respectfully as a human ex. But in NA in front of her friends she is embarrassed and treats him like a soulless vampire who is up to no good.
Presumedly some part of her did see him as someone she could trust. And that was why she was saddened and shocked by the AR. It wasn't what she had expected from the man Spike, but part of her had expected such behaviour from the demon Spike and she had treated him accordingly (as a thing not to be trusted). Hopefully Buffy and Spike will both be able to reconcile their view of Spike as a man next season, rather than confusion over whether he is an evil vampire or a potential friend.

[> [> [> Re: 'William' and Buffy -- Dochawk, 12:34:56 08/25/02 Sun

"Hopefully Buffy and Spike will both be able to reconcile their view of Spike as a man next season, rather than confusion over whether he is an evil vampire or a potential friend."

I am not sure I agree with you. Spike's particular fascination as a character has to do with his ambiguity. You lose that ambiguity and he either becomes a sap, a Big Bad or maybe Angel. None of them sound particularly appealing (one Angel is enough). Of course the combination of his guilt, his impotent power and his unrequieted love could turn him into something else, a madman, a true psychotic. Watching JM play mad Spike would be wonderful, can't figure how they'll cure him if they do, but thats why I just watch.

[> [> [> [> Re: 'William' and Buffy -- Miss Edith, 15:45:20 08/25/02 Sun

I have just had enough of all the ambiguity played with Spike. I felt the writers got plenty of mileage out of that in season 6 with the lack of continuity with the character. I am personally ready for a change next season. And your suggestion of mad Spike does sound intriguing. Well it would certainly be different anyway. And a breakdown was hinted at in SR when Spike was almost trying to dig the chip out of his head and lapsing into Dru speak (after the AR).
It might be interesting to play the greyness of Spike's nature out I suppose. I just hope his relationships and purpose are a bit more defined. I really didn't feel the character was well served in season 6 which is why I'm hoping for something a bit different. But that's JMHO.

[> [> OK, annoyed again -- verdantheart, 07:04:00 08/26/02 Mon

Buffy's "missing the man he could have been"? If she'd have indicated to him in even the slightest way that she had a notion he "could have been," he would have moved mountains to--at least try to--become, rather than proving that he is, in fact, a "soulless thing." This is the sort of reason why I was so irritated with Buffy last season. I hope I like her behavior better in the coming season.

[> [> [> Re: OK, annoyed again -- alcibiades, 09:17:24 08/26/02 Mon

Got to agree.

In Season 6, Buffy was a complete failure as an inspiring leader and general.

It effected everyone.

Not that it wasn't undersandable. But still it wasn't pretty.

Band of buggered indeed.

IN RL parallels, I imagine if a heroic chief warrior of a tribe took a year long break to be depressed, his tribe would be left in serious jeopardy. Although that might have the effect of lifting him out of it. As eventually it did Buffy.

[> [> [> [> Re: OK, annoyed again -- Miss Edith, 08:24:54 08/27/02 Tue

In The Gift Spike noted Buffy was treating him like a man and it clearly brought out the best in him. That was the problem with Spike lacking a moral compass. He was relying on Buffy to teach him right from wrong. He was behaving like a man in late season 5. But in season 6 when Buffy was lost her effect on Spike did seem to become solely negative. That was why a lot of people wondered if he did need a soul, and tried to blame his behaviour on Buffy, pointing out that she was treating him like a monster and he was responding as such. Whilst there was truth in that the real problem was that Spike was judging his behaviour on what Buffy would want. I hope once he has a soul he will be able to become his own man.


The altruistic apocalypse: "Grave" vs. "The Iron Dragon's Daughter"(for aliera,but not solely)
-- KdS, 07:59:16 08/24/02 Sat

At the time I was lurking on this board and slowly being corrupted to black-eyed Spoiler Junkiedom I was also reading one of the most important works of prose fantasy fiction of the 1990s - Michael Swanwick's "The Iron Dragon's Daughter". I don't believe it was just coincidence that made me wonder if someone at ME had also read that book, as both the climax of S6 and the climax of IDD play with an idea I've never seen anywhere else, and that almost seems too dark to explore. What if the universe you live in seems utterly dominated by darkness and pain, so that it comes to seem that its destruction would not be an act of evil, but a blessed liberation of everyone enduring it?

For anybody who hasn't read the book, a quick plot recap. Jane is a changeling, taken from an America very like our own to a very 20th century Faerie. This Faerie has retained all of the dark elements that 19th-century retellings of the legends and the more twee elements of the modern New Age bowdlerise, but has also undergone technological and social changes that give it the more unpleasant attributes of the dying years of the 20th century. The nations of Faerie make war on each other using "iron dragons", sentient, magically powered cyborgs half-way between the dragons of mythology and modern jet bombers. Unfortunately, due to the legendarily deleterious effects of ferrous metal on those of Faerie origin, it is necessary to harvest changelings from our world to construct and pilot them.

The book divides clearly into four acts. At the start of the book, Jane is an indentured slave in a dragon factory straight out of the darker end of Victorian social fiction. She is contacted in her dreams by a discarded, defective dragon, Melanchthon, who recognises her as a useful kindred spirit, and they escape the factory to a new life. So far so Anne McCaffrey. Yet Melanchthon is in no way a father figure. Rather, he's a crazed misanthrope who rapidly discards Jane when she's no longer useful to him. Moreover, he shows no regret for engineering the death of Jane's closest friend as part of their escape plan.

The second and third acts follow Jane through subtly distorted versions of a modern American high school and university. She undergoes a sexual awakening, which just makes life even messier and more complex. She makes friends with the high school prom queen Gwen, whose life consists of a year of hectic sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll pampering concluded by a hideous blood sacrifice to Faerie's Goddess, who is closer to Kali than any of the more maternal figures of Earth's mythology. At university, she studies a carefully arranged magical system that will be familiar to anyone with the faintest knowledge of Renaissance alchemical beliefs. Yet while the spiritual aspects of such discipline are present, Jane's past life has left her interested in little other than the ways it can make life easier. Finally, in the fourth act, she becomes a microcelebrity of a familiar type to any modern American or British person, one of those generally female figures who dabble in modelling, acting, singing, but who are essentially known for appearing in magazines wearing very little and in public on the arms of bigger stars of the opposite sex. In the process we discover that Faerie is a truly soulless place, largely driven by lust and self-interest, where those who allow themselves to show altruistic warmth for others are generally destroyed and exploited by those not handicapped by a conscience. After early attempts to rise above it, Jane wholeheartedly accepts this mindset. Even worse, it appears that each of the acts of her life are marked by the presence of a female rival-cum-soulmate and a male lover, who are in some way different incarnations of the same entities. Unfortunately, some malign and unstoppable destiny appears to ensure that these figures constantly die horribly, often through her action or inaction. Or is it just her own choices?

At Jane's social peak but personal nadir, Melanchthon reappears in her life with an audacious plan. His every action has been devoted to revenge on the universe that allowed him and Jane to be created, as he sees it, merely to endure suffering. He intends a kamikaze attack on the Goddess's citadel, Spiral Castle. If successful, not only will the universe, Jane and himself will be destroyed, but nothing will ever *have* existed. Jane looks at the wreckage of her life and agrees.

While the Buffyverse is nowhere near as dark as Swanwick's Faerie, it's still pretty grim. Relationships fall apart, good people die as often as bad people do, and sometimes it's hard to see what the point of the struggle is. Why bother to be virtuous and self-sacrificing when you still end up being the Universe's butt-monkey? Angel confronts this in S2, and after a brief period of self-righteous indulgence of his worst instincts settles for fatalism. Willow is brought slap up against it in S6 and with some help from whatever she picked up from Rack goes for vengeance and sadistic externalisation of her own suffering on others, developing a distinctly Melanchthonish alternate personality (although Melanchthon at his most crazed is far more frighteningly calm and rational than Darth Rozenberg's cliched "Hey kids I'm EEEEEEVIL!" posturing). When Giles tries to awaken her to the glories of humanity, she sees only the suffering, and like Jane the only response she can come up with is to bring it all crashing down. It's what happens next that points out the difference between Swanwick and ME, but also brings up possibilities for Willow's future development.

Jane and Melanchthon's attack is, of course, hubristic in the classical sense and doomed to fail. Spiral Castle is impervious to their assault, and its very proximity causes them to simply disintegrate. Melanchthon dies cursing Jane and every other entity in the universe (in a perversely hilarious stream of rhetoric), but Jane finds herself inside the castle for a deeply ambiguous and one-sided confrontation with the goddess herself. In a deeply Existentialist conclusion, she accepts full responsiblity for her own uglier actions (which by this stage include theft, fraud, deliberate abandonment of others to death, and murder on a semi-industrial scale) but still furiously refuses to accept that the divine plan is acceptable or justifiable. When asked what her true desire is, she is shocked to find herself asking for punishment, but instead she finds herself returned to the life she could have had in her homeworld. Her punishment, now that her conscience is fully awakened, is not to suffer any pain that might give a false sense of atonement, but instead to lead a fully human life with the full knowledge of what she has done and still has the potential to do. One wonders if maybe this could be what's in store for Willow, and it will be made especially ironic by the fact that her friends will quite probably make excuses for her (It was the crack talking, it was having her girlfriend die...) rather than give her the opportunity to earn the genuine open-eyed forgiveness that she needs.

It's the Willow/Jane parallels that are clearest, but if you read the book I'm sure you'll see some other similarities of subject matter. In particular, Gwen's choice to become the Year Queen and pampered sacrifice is more than a little reminiscent of Cordelia's late S2/early S3 embracing of her role as Scapegoat of LA, although without giving one of the major plot twists away, Gwen's means of dealing with her condition are much less admirable than Cordy's.

If you haven't read IDD I sincerely recommend you to. It's thought-provoking, at times heartrending, and also on occasion absolutely hilarious. I don't think even ME could fit jokes into the same work that reference Bacon's "Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion", Roxy Music, Charles Dickens, the Disney "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" and modern analytical spectroscopy. There's one caveat - this is definitely NC-17. As well as the dark subject matter described, there's some very explicit description of (relatively mainstream) sexual acts and one of the most graphically horrible death scenes (of a relatively likable character) I've ever read. If you care about such things, there's also quite a bit of drug use without overt moral condemnation. If you can aceept all that, your life will be richer for reading it. Although it's quite despicably been allowed to go out of print, copies shouldn't be too hard to find in libraries or second-hand shops.


Call me irresponsible: a review of Xbox Buffy
-- Cactus Watcher, 08:17:30 08/24/02 Sat

I've always been a sucker for games of all sorts. As a kid I usually asked for board games for Christmas. In the middle of the wargame craze in the early '70's I had practically everything published from the great to the so-so to the atrocious. As a young adult, I amazed my family with my ability to pick games for gifts that kids did not get bored with quickly. In the early days when computer graphics began to take off, I owned something besides a clunky IBM clone, and bought practically everthing that came out for it. To make a long story a little less long, I know a bit about games.

These days I'm not the joystick jockey. I don't care for straight arcade games much any more. I still do like computer RPG's very much, and games that take some thought and strategy. Consequently, combined with having no young kids around, and less time to mess around with games, I haven't owned a video game box in many years. But, several months ago I bought a copy of an RPG I'd been waiting literally years for called Morrowind. To my dismay my one-year-old, mass-market computer refused to run it. Rather than take the game back and scream for a refund, I started thinking about upgrading to make the game work. I noticed that there was going to be a version for the Xbox, and had vague thoughts, 'Gee, I could probably save money and just get that.' But, that version was months off. Ironically, the computer I'd been using for the net had a terminal software meltdown within a few weeks. It was beyond anything I could fix, and I've fixed more than one software-dead PC in my time. So, with my unrunable game in mind, I demoted my one-year-old to internet PC and went out bought a new PC which runs Morrowind just fine, thank you.

At any rate the idea of getting an Xbox hadn't totally left my head. The news that there was going to be a Buffy specific game for it was both tantalizing and repugnant. For years, computer games with movie or TV tie-ins were predictably sub-standard games, usually very short and often dull. Things have been getting better. I'd heard good things about some of the Star Wars arcade games recently, and I'd bought a Star Trek adventure a couple years ago that while a tad short was entertaining enough.

The only other Buffy related game I own is a 2 or 3 year old pinball game, which I like a lot, which has sound clips from the first two seasons. After hearing here that the Xbox Buffy game was on the shelves, I stewed awhile and decided I could afford to get it.

The best way to describe BtVS Xbox game is Lara Croft (Tomb Raider) with long pants and a stake. A lot of the acrobatics from Tomb Raider have been toned down or simplified, to make Buffy's fighting skills more spectacular. Conversely, if you are familar with straight beat-'em-up games, the fighting mechanics are relatively simple. If it sounds like all the fun has been taken out, that's not true. There is plenty of action, plenty of frustrating fights and cliff jumping. It is to put it mildly fun. It takes no skill at all to make Buffy fight, but it does take some tactics and quick fingers to get Buffy though the numerous occaisions where shes surrounded and near a cliff, close to busy train tracks or what have you. Although the game suggests a number of 'special' manuevers to practice, it's more fun to just start tapping the buttons thinking of simple manuevers. When you accidentally hit the right combinations the results are, indeed, spectacular. And, you can imagine, sometimes you've aimed wrong and that flying kick that just came out of nowhere hits nothing but air.

Artistically, the game is both attractive and at times funny. As you might expect for a game aimed at teenage boys, the girl's figures are exagerated. Cordy is ridiculously top heavy, Buffy is a little less so, and AH might kill to have the figure Willow has in the game. As often happens in games, the hip area of the women is not tall enough, so from a few angles Buffy looks oddly like a boy in a padded suit when she's running around. The motion capture, though, is quite good. Many little quirks of the way SMG moves are there, and it is very convincing that you are playing Buffy not a generic female. While the overall art is good the faces are another story. The most time and effort was put in on Buffy's. She looks fine. The others of the gang are 'hard' faced to say the least. Giles looks boney. Spike's face is puffy and looks dirty. Willow's features have been sharpened a lot, but she is attractive. Cordy on the other hand is downright ugly, and Xander is more hideous than any of the monsters. It's a small thing and if you just listen to the voices, and not concentrate on the artwork its not too disturbing.

Speaking of the voices, everybody is in character and paying attenion to the story. It sounds like some time was put into getting it right. It's sad that SMG didn't contribute, but the woman playing her part does a very credible job of imitating her. Her voice is a little lower and smoother at times than SMG's, but usually it's close enough you can forget it's not really SMG.

Most of my gripes about the game have to do with the Xbox format. You can't save games when you want and removing unwanted saves is a chore. It's also a little disturbing to a long time computer gamer that there is no way to get out of the game short of 'dying' or pushing the eject button for the disc, which for many years was one of those invitations for catastrophe for a computer.

Generally, I liked BtVS the Game a lot. If you've ever played and enjoyed Tomb Raider, you'll enjoy this twist on that theme. The Xbox is selling for $199 just about everywhere, and I got the Buffy game for $49.99 at Fry's Electronics.

[>Knowing absolutely nothing about such things... ;o) -- dubdub, 12:06:23 08/24/02 Sat

but still intrigued by your review, how come Cordy is in the game but not Angel? Hmmm? What "season" could it be set in?

Inquiring minds want to know!

;o) (Oh, just ignore me, I'm being picky cuz I'm bored!)

[> [>I think Angel is in it and its set in Season 3 (I think) -- JCC, 13:08:00 08/24/02 Sat


[> [> [>Right. I just haven't seen Angel yet. -- CW, 14:00:39 08/24/02 Sat

He may be goreous, or ugly as sin in the game. ;o)

[> [>Re: Knowing absolutely nothing about such things... ;o) -- CW, 14:12:30 08/24/02 Sat

The game Morrowind, I spoke about, has an important wise woman character, but unfortunately no dubdub!

[> [>Yep, there is Angel -- ahira, 14:29:00 08/24/02 Sat

Angel is in the game. Think they kind of blew it with him though. It's his hair....LOL It is definitely third season from all the talk. They mention OZ, but don't think he is in it. One bit of conversation made me think it was during the time when Xander and Willow were secretly smootching. She made some nervous type comments when Cordy talked about Xander helping her research in the stacks.

[> [>David Boreanaz has already lent his voice to the Video Game Kingdom Hearts -- neaux, 18:05:25 08/24/02 Sat

DB's voice will be used in the PS2 game Kingdom Hearts.. This will be a game I WILL get since I have a PS2!! it comes out September 18th.. I will be ready.

[>Thanks for the info! -- Earl Allison, 14:22:28 08/24/02 Sat

Yup, I hurled myself under the bandwagon and bought the XBox Buffy game -- now I need to wait a week or two to afford the actual console :)

Thanks for the comments on the game, and for letting me know it isn't just a fight clone.

For what it's worth, you might like the Buffy RPG -- the Corebook just came out this week, and it looks like a LOT of thought went into it.

One minor complaint, there are a LOT of quotes from the series in there, and I'd hate to tally them up and figure out how much of the book (almost 250 pages) was taken up by it.

Take it and run.


Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored?
-- Covert Spiker, 19:01:25 08/24/02 Sat

Hi. I've recently learned how the WB cut lines from the end of "Graduation, part 2" in which Xander expresses delight at having blown up the school, and gets the others to admit that they also took some satisfaction in the act. After some consideration, I concede that at the time this episode first aired, perhaps that decision was for the best. However, I don't quite understand why these changes needed to be permanent. It's not my wish to trivialize or sound insensitive to real life tragedies, but I believe enough time has passed that they could re-insert those lines today, and most people would not bat an eye. When the third season is released on DVD in the US, it would be nice if they could put the episode back to the way it originally was intended, or at the very least, include the alternate ending as an extra.

[>Keeping thread alive -- Masq, 12:59:03 08/26/02 Mon


[>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- monsieurxander, 13:16:17 08/26/02 Mon

Interesting point. I'm not sure how I would feel about it. I mean, I wouldn't have cared one way or the other, being that I don't think that "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has any relevance to Columbine or any incident like it. However, if the scene was restored, then that would possibly open a floodgate not easily closed. This argument could also be made for the Willow-Tara kiss in "Restless". I'm sure there are other places as well. They could possibly add scenes where it would interupt the flow of things, etc, and we'd miss the old version of the episode, but would never be able to watch it the same way again. I may sound a little extreme, and yes, a lot of this could be labeled exaggeration, but I was just trying to get my point across, presenting a different point of view.

[> [>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- pr10n, 13:59:17 08/26/02 Mon

Is this a censorship question or an editing question?

My snap opinion is things removed due to censorship should be restored. Things removed for editing purposes are often better off gone. [Witness author uncuts like Stephen King's _The Complete Stand_ -- better the first time? I think so.]

So: Can we let the artist choose? Joss should be the one to judge, if he's trustworthy.

[> [> [>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- TRM, 16:43:58 08/26/02 Mon

Interesting point that I seem to have pulled from monsieurxander's post is that subsequent episodes might have been tailored to edited versions. Thus continuity might not work quite as well with the edited out scenes placed back in. On the other hand, perhaps continuity may have been hurt by some last-minute or difficult editing. Of course, doing the whole edited/non-edited version on the same DVD can likely resolve both predicaments -- assuming of course that the censorship issue (which I'm not touching!) doesn't rear its head.

[> [> [> [>Just include deleted scenes as an extra? -- Vickie, 18:14:40 08/26/02 Mon

Couldn't they just include the deleted scenes (or bits) as a DVD extra, with Joss (or other producer/directory) v/o explaining why a certain thing was cut. They do this all the time for films.

[> [> [> [> [>Re: Just include deleted scenes as an extra? -- Freki, 19:47:09 08/26/02 Mon

I think they did for The X-Files too. I know they had a couple scenes of Scully with a boyfriend that were dropped from the pilot on the DVD.

[> [>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- JBone, 18:31:05 08/26/02 Mon

This argument could also be made for the Willow-Tara kiss in "Restless".

I'm not sure what your argument here is. Does anyone actually believe that Willow and Tara never kissed before it was actually shown on network tv? I guess the impact of 'the kiss' in The Body was less for me, since I wasn't looking for some landmark, but I believed these two had been doing much more than kissing for a long time before this. Definitely before Restless.

[> [> [>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- monsieurxander, 20:49:00 08/26/02 Mon

What I meant was, from what I understand the WB was not too keen on letting the characters kiss onscreen. I read somewhere that Joss threatened to quit if the kiss in "The Body" was not put in. In the scene in "Restless", it shows Xander's reaction to the Willow-Tara kiss, rather than the kiss itself. It seemed to me that maybe the WB reared its ugly censorship head on this one, much to the disdain of Joss. I was just making an example of where deleted material (if it was ever filmed) could be restored.

I totally agree with you about them doing kissing, and more, before "The Body". It was just understood, not shown. Remember the candle blowing out bit at the end of the "Return of Seth Green" episode (can't remember the title of the ep... forgive me)?

[> [> [> [>If you're talking about the "Restless" scene I think you are... -- KdS, 05:16:13 08/27/02 Tue

I would say that it was a very moral and meaningful decision not to show the kiss in the ice cream van scene. I think the point is that this isn't Willow and Tara in any shape or form, it's Xander's imaginary porn stars with Willow and Taras' faces. Hence actually showing the kiss would have been prurient and sexist in a way that a kiss in any other circumstances wouldn't have been - no love, nothing progressive, just a horny young man's sex fantasy.

On the other hand, if there was a kiss cut from Willow's dream and I didn't know about it, ignore this post.

[> [> [> [> [>Re: If you're talking about the "Restless" scene I think you are... -- monsieurxander, 14:52:19 08/27/02 Tue

"I would say that it was a very moral and meaningful decision not to show the kiss in the ice cream van scene. I think the point is that this isn't Willow and Tara in any shape or form, it's Xander's imaginary porn stars with Willow and Taras' faces."

Point taken. I pretty much agree with you. I'm glad that scene wasn't their first onscreen kiss. It just seemed to me that it had been edited out, by showing Xander's face instead of the actual kiss. I wasn't advocating restoring (if in fact footage had been cut) or leaving it the way it was... just making an example.

[> [> [> [> [> [>Re: If you're talking about the "Restless" scene I think you are... -- Slain, 16:24:35 08/28/02 Wed

From what I can remember of the commentary, I think the edit was deliberate, and not something forced on them. I know Joss does say something about it, but I can't think exactly what.

[>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- Covert Spiker, 23:16:54 08/26/02 Mon

Part of what irks me about these cuts is simply the fact that it left Xander with virtually no lines in the last scene. Knowing that this was done makes it more conspicuous when I watch it. But from the little I've gleaned about this, it seems to me like more a case of censorship enforced by the WB, rather than the normal editing process that occurs in the production of a TV episode. I don't think it's fair that the censored version becomes the definitive version only because it had the bad luck to happen to initially air around the same time as something which was undeniably horrible, but at best, its connection to Buffy was coincidental and extremely tenuous to begin with. When season six premiered, just the shot of Giles' plane taking off was enough to provide a reminder of Sept 11. But I can watch that now without making any unpleasant associations.

BTW, Masq, thanks again, for reinstating my post. I didn't take the day of the week into consideration earlier, and I haven't lurked here enough to get a sense of how long it takes for threads to disappear. The subject of these edits is just something that's been bothering me, and I'm glad at the chance to get other opinions on it.

[>Re: Should "Graduation, part 2" be restored? -- skpe, 06:54:25 08/27/02 Tue

I Agree. In move CDs there are always 'Directors cutsı. It would allow Joss to restore scenes that the 'Standard & Practices ' people forced him to remove and I think it would enhance the salability of the CD.It certainly would for me.

[> [>Just in case no one has already pointed this out... -- Slain, 13:11:13 08/28/02 Wed

... But the Season 3 DVD is already out pretty much everywhere except the US (and possibly Canada) - I've had mine since October last year! So I'm guessing the US version is probably going to be the same, like the previous two were, except maybe for different packaging.

[> [> [>US Versions not the same -- Alan Smithee, 16:15:00 08/28/02 Wed

Sorry to disappoint you, but in fact they are not the same. On the Season 2 DVD, Region 1 has snippets of Joss interviews that don't appear on the other regions. On the season 4 DVD Region 1 will have a commentary by Seth Green on Wild At Heart that doesn't appear on the other regions. This is the advantage of having to wait 2 extra years for the DVDs though.


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