April 2004 posts
The
Greater Powerful Being the more limitation's you have on Earth!!
-- slayer, 20:08:25 04/28/04 Wed
On Earth the lesser beings can handle their power better than
the higher powers that descend in our realm. Glory an actual Hellgod
maintain her power's by draining humans to keep herself stable
or when she was drained reverted to Ben. Jasmine had to eat humans
to maintain her power and keep herself strong. Illyria couldn't
maintain the power she possessed for very long. They each lost
power by being limited to such human forms. I guess being on Earth
gives limitations to even the greatest of beings.
Replies:
[> SPOILERS 5.19 ABOVE!!! -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:16:14
04/28/04 Wed
[> [> Re: SPOILERS 5.19 ABOVE!!! -- Alistair, 13:22:35
04/29/04 Thu
I think the deal isn't that Earth limits power of higher beings,
but those who are limited to human form, must also limit their
power. Illyria's true form would need only a small step to level
the W&H building. Glory's true form is likely like Illyria's,
a primordial demonic organism with incredible power, but turned
human. I imagine Glory was once like Illyria, able to travel through
dimensions, feared and worshipped through many worlds. However,
she was confined to a human body, not really a shell. Her power
was greately weakened. Glory was far stronger then Illyria, but
she lacked Illyria's freedom, her ability to manipulate time,
and travel through the dimensions (that is why she needed the
key). I'm sure that if she tried hard, she could have found another
way into her world. She only spent 25 years or so on Earth, and
because her mortality weghed in on her, she neede to get back
asap.
Its the human form and its weakness which limits them, not being
on Earth, after all Illyria reigned on Earth for millions of years.
Spoilers for 5.19! I had a weird feeling about
this one's beginning scenes.... -- Briar Rose, 01:13:19
04/29/04 Thu
I am wondering if I am the only one who watched the first 10 minutes
of the show and felt like I'd missed an episode between last week
and where this one picked up.
As I watched the way that Angel told Wesley that Illyria had sure
been able to beat him (Angel) up and the change in Wesley, as
well as the way that Lorne was behaving and talking about how
everyone had changed, I sensed that something had been left out.
It was almost as if the entire episode was played out of order.
The deeper I got into the episode, the more I started to wonder
if ME wasn't feeling pressure to wrap up the series before the
final ep, since it had come so soon and without much warning in
advance.
But than as I watched, I started to wonder if that was intentional
on the part of ME. If the playing with time had started by setting
the first few minutes up as a sort of disorienting factor. One
that would intensify the rest of the ep in such a way that the
viewer would't know what was in order and what was not, until
it was straightened out at the end.
I'm hoping it was the last hypothesis.... It was a good episode
and I am very interested in how this is all going to play out.
What I'm afraid of is that it was actually one of the first two
theories and that doesn't bode well for the last two eps of the
series. I am going to miss this show a lot, and I really hope
they can take it out on as much of a high as they have shown for
this season so far.
Does anyone have an idea of which of those possibilities was the
actual method of this ep?
I also would like to hear from anyone that didn't notice anything
weird about the beginning of this episode, as sometimes I think
I read more into the script than what is there.
Of course, if anyone else noticed this, that would definitely
make me feel better too! :)
Replies:
[> Re: Spoilers for 5.19! I had a weird feeling about this
one's beginning scenes.... -- Rob, 07:27:02 04/29/04 Thu
I'm just about positive it was the disorienting option, because
the rushed beginning wasn't the only instance of playing with
time in the episode. The first act ended with Illyria reappearing
in a scene we'd already seen her in, and there were of course
other cases throughout the episode where she discussed what was
going to happen. It is another case of ME solving what seems to
be a very complex problem very quickly in the teaser of an episode,
like the opening of First Date on Buffy--where we
find out that Spike has had his chip removed, and how Giles was
able to survive the Bringer's attack after months of build-up,
in a mere few seconds--but more exciting. I think they went the
way they did because it was concise and unexpected, not to mention
disturbing, as we see the demon stabbing himself with the knife.
But in an episode where we see our entire cast slaughtered and
then moments later, go back in time to an earlier scene, at which
point Angel from that earlier scene is plucked out of that time
when Illyria makes her next time jump...and then again...and then
witnesses the aftermath of everyone's death, as well as Illyria's,
and then goes back in time again himself to stop all of the carnage,
including that of Illyria....um, I'd vote disorienting on purpose.
;-)
Rob
[> Re: Spoilers for 5.19 -- Old One, 07:56:55 04/29/04
Thu
I dunno...I think the whole episode was a big waste of "time."
(hah!)
Yeah, I got that it was all about time-shifting, but it was also
all about getting DB's wife into a guest spot before the show
ended, and giving Lorne some badly deserved screen time, and things
like that.
Oh, and BTW, is Gunn still in the basement? The "last"
time Illyria was there with Angel she didn't rescue him or put
the medallion on the demon...
[> [> Check the last scenes, Spoilers for 5.19 --
Pony, 08:18:06 04/29/04 Thu
Gunn is most certainly there arguing with the demons - think of
Angel's timeline as being linear with the pop backs as something
only he can remember. Hmm where have we heard that before?
I really liked the episode. Excellent characterizations all round.
I saw the episode as being all about change, it reminded me of
the basic premise of the Sandman comics - that everything
must change, or die.
[> [> [> Old One does have a point.... but YAY!
-- Briar Rose, 14:49:10 04/29/04 Thu
I don't know about DB's wife, but I was wondering about the fact
that Illyria didn't re-create the same play through in that last
scene in the basement, so WAS Gunn really back in the timeline.
Of course, Pony is correct, they did wrap that up.
You can add me to your Cheerleader Squad, Rob. 'cause this was
one of the most highly conceptual plots that ME has been able
to pull off without leaving dangling ends or giving away the entire
set up too soon.
I would say that even with the many merits of highly conceptual
eps on both shows (OMWF, Hush, SmileTime) THIS had to be one of
the most convincing and least expected plots.
It really makes me wonder why the series isn't doing as well as
WB seems to think it should be and my ire against the minds behind
tv programming is growing stronger every day. On artistic merit
alone, I think that ME should be given every allowance to keep
producing their shows as they feel is correct and to be supported
in that.
I understand money and rating and all that crap. I spent too much
of my life IN that field to not.... But sometimes it has to bow
to genius.
I think I'll dust off my pompoms and give the next couple of eps
more credence after all.
[> [> [> [> Definitely! -- Rob, 15:04:32
04/29/04 Thu
You can add me to your Cheerleader Squad, Rob. 'cause this
was one of the most highly conceptual plots that ME has been able
to pull off without leaving dangling ends or giving away the entire
set up too soon.
Yes...the plotting of the episode was spot-on perfect. The structure
of the episode was interesting and unusual, and the way events
unfolded without, as you said, letting us figure out the endgame
too soon. But then, I've always been a sucker for time travel
stories. Luckilly, this one was done incredibly well. And if you
think about it, from the moment we see Illyria slaughter everybody
and jump back to Angel in the hallway, and then take Angel with
her for the next jump, etc. etc., the episode somehow made Eternal
Sunshine of the Spotless Mind's narrative seem linear, and
yet was not too confusing.
The BRILLIANT performances from Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof didn't
hurt either, of course. As much as I love Fred and am sad about
her death, Illyria has allowed Amy Acker to really show off her
acting talent in a way that Fred couldn't. Particularly the episodes
where we see her play both characters, the juxtaposition is astounding.
To be honest, I find her transformation into another character
even more convincing than Allyson Hannigan's performance as Dark
Willow.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> I have to agree..... -- Briar
Rose, 15:48:12 04/29/04 Thu
With no offense intended to AH (because I thought she was the
one truly great actress in the Wedon verse thus far), I never
really saw dark!Willow as much of a change from the increasing
negative!Willow that had been being protrayed all along. And none
of those changes ever actually took away all of AH's personal
quirkiness. It seemed more forced in some way....
I will not deny that I have not been an Amy Acker fan since she
showed up on the series. In fact, I couldn't fathom all of the
alledge "She's Joss' Audrey Hepburn" proclaimations
in the rumors and gossip sites. She didn't do much for me, and
her character was rather unevolved, beyond the change between
humanCow!Fred and labcoat/warrior!Fred.
But the lst few eps have started me thinking that AA just might
be a highly skilled actress and that her character was ultimately
headed for just this change, to fully bring about the critical
aspects that JW had seen in here.
I'm just happy that the last few eps are all turing out to be
strong. I was seriously afraid that a lot of planning would be
cast aside to get an ending that wouldn't cheapen the story or
leave too many loose ends. It's a real concern when a show faces
immenant demise.....
(and I agree with your post up above, Rob. People trying to play
games and cause arguements always annoys me.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks... -- Rob, 16:15:03
04/29/04 Thu
(and I agree with your post up above, Rob. People trying to
play games and cause arguements always annoys me.)
Thanks, I was thisclose to responding to the thread, but
then I realized that she enjoys that, sitting back and playing
innocent while her threads grow and people get angry at each other.
So I decided that starting a new thread would be the best way
to get the message across. These little games of hers really are
getting beyond tiresome.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Adding my agreement
-- Old One, 17:27:30 04/29/04 Thu
On *almost* all points--both AA and AD displaying amazing acting
range in this week's episode. It's to the point now where I'm
ready to believe that Fred was several inches shorter and a good
few pounds lighter than Illyria. Her entire physicality has changed,
along with her voice of course.
AD's madness was truly inspired as well. I just wasn't really
convinced that this particular story was critical enough to take
up a whole hour of our last four!
As for the other matter, well I appreciate the effort anyway.
;o)
Prophecies...mild spoiler for last night?
-- Corcastus, 08:27:35 04/29/04 Thu
Would anyone else agree that last night's episode supports the
idea that just because something is prophesied/predicted to happen
doesn't mean that it necessarily will? Although Angel witnessed
the death of the entire crew, he was still able to change that
which was supposed to happen.
Replies:
[> Unless of course a prophecy could predict him doing that
-- Finn Mac Cool, 08:46:32 04/29/04 Thu
Couldn't a prophecy very well come around and predict that Illyria
kills the Fang Gang, but also that Illyria's consciousness will
then travel through time, taking Angel with it, allowing the deaths
to be averted? Besides, if Angel and Spike were both killed then,
it becomes highly unlikely the Shanshu prophecy wouldn't have
been fulfilled, so either that prophecy didn't predict Illyria
or anticipated Angel changing the future to stop her (all presuming
there aren't other souled vampires down the line).
[> "prophecies are tricky things" Spoliers through
last week (5.18?) -- meritaten, 10:32:49 04/29/04 Thu
It seems to me that every prophecy that has been "fulfilled"
ends up being different from what was expected. [Although, despite
massive amounts of manipulation by a number of players, Conner
still killed Sherjahn (sp?).] In Buffy S1, the Master rose, and
Buffy died - but that was only part of the story. THe prophecy
might have been true to the letter, but still did not reveal the
actual outcome. Prophecies can also be manipulated, as WEsley
found out in Angel S3.
Last night was a time-loop thing. Did I miss a link to a prophecy?
Buffy DVD set content index -- Ames, 08:49:37
04/29/04 Thu
Seeing that the Season 6 DVD set is due out next month (for those
of us in Region 1 anyway), I finally got around to going through
all 5 previous DVD sets thoroughly to make sure that there were
no extra features I missed watching or hidden Easter eggs. I started
making a list of everything and checking it off, and I got a bit
carried away and made a complete table of all the DVD contents.
Having gone that far, I decided to turn it into a web page with
some index images and post it. You can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/3hy5b.
If anyone wants to provide me with some more information on what's
missing or added on the Region 2 DVDs, I'll include it in the
table.
Some DVD set trivia:
The average length of episodes dropped steadily, from 44:43 in
Season 1 to 43:23 in Season 5. Always room for another commercial!
The longest episode so far is Teacher's Pet, at 45:22 (of course
Once More With Feeling in Season 6 will be longest in all seven
seasons). The shortest episode is Band Candy, at 41:22.
The longest extra feature so far is the Season 4 Overview, at
36:52.
The DVD set with the most extra content so far is Season 4, with
7 commentaries and 1 hour, 27 minutes and 33 seconds of video
extras, plus 4 scripts, cast biographies, and a large photo gallery.
The only DVD so far with no extra content is Season 2 Disc 1.
So far only a single commentary by an actor has been included:
Seth Green (Oz) participated in a free-wheeling commentary with
Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon for Wild at Heart in Season 4.
People appearing on the faces of the 27 DVDs released so far:
- Buffy appears on all 3 discs in Season 1, 3 in Season 2, then
one each in Seasons 3-5, for a total of 9 times.
- Xander is the first person to appear other than Buffy, on S2D2.
He appears once per season 2-5, for a total of 4 times.
- Willow is the next to appear, on S2D4. She also appears once
per season 2-5, for a total of 4 times.
The order of appearance of these first 3 is the order in which
they first appeared on the show in episode 1. You might expect
that Giles would be next, but he's not. Nor Angel.
- It's Spike, on S2D6, He also appears once per season 2-5, for
a total of 4 times.
- Next are Angel (S3D4) and Faith (S3D5), who each appear only
once. Then Oz, on S4D1.
- Giles finally appears on S4D6, his only appearance so far.
- Dawn (S5D2) and Glory (S5D5) each appear once.
Glory is the only season "big bad", and the only villain
(other than Spike) to appear.
Regular cast Joyce, Cordelia, Riley and Tara have never appeared.
Tara is the only one left with a chance to appear in Season 6.
The internal disc names and menu structures of the DVDs are quite
inconsistent, even within a single season set. They were obviously
produced by different people. I looked at the DVD content structure
mainly with DVD Shrink 3.1, which provides a lot of information.
I also checked the file structure to make sure there were no extra
DVD-ROM files beyond those mentioned.
Replies:
[> Re: Buffy DVD set content index -- LittleBit, 09:15:22
04/29/04 Thu
"...going through all 5 previous DVD sets thoroughly to
make sure that there were no extra features I missed watching
or hidden Easter eggs. I started making a list of everything and
checking it off, and I got a bit carried away and made a complete
table of all the DVD contents. Having gone that far, I decided
to turn it into a web page with some index images and post it."
LOL!!! If there was ever an indication of someone belonging on
this board I think you've hit it!
[> Wow... -- Belladonna, 10:41:53 04/29/04 Thu
I am impressed. I can't imagine how much time that took, but thanks
for doing it! It's very helpful to be able to see all the extras.
That will help me decide which one to buy next! :)
[> wowza...well done. -- Nino, 13:11:45 04/29/04
Thu
Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 10:46:42 04/29/04 Thu
Gunn doesn't want to play the Wolfram and Hart game anymore, kow-towing
to evil clients. Understandable. He's learned his lesson.
So why oh why is Angel still playing after everything HE has learned
this season? Illyria tells him her philosophy of leadership, "Don't
follow anything but your own ambition", or something like
that. You think it would lead Angel to defy Wolfram and Hart,
but he doesn't. Or he doesn't appear to.
I think he genuinely doesn't defy them. He turns to Gunn at the
end and makes him do what W&H want. He aids and abets their daily
apocalypse. And why?
W&H still have him by the heart. Not to mention the man-parts.
Angel's contract with them is still in force. If Angel were to
leave W&H, or defy the Senior Partners in a way that meant
a chronic loss in profits, then these things would happen in short
order:
(1) Connor would lose his fake memories, the ones that are helping
him endure the real past. His parents would also lose their false
memories of his childhood. Who knows what effect that would have
on Connor?
(2) Wesley and the gang would lose their false memories. Gunn
and Lorne would remember the real past.
(3) All the changes in reality would undo themselves. Wesley's
scar would return. Connor's childhood mementos--everything from
the false past would be gone.
(4) and Fred would still be dead.
Angel, in short, is screwed. He can't defy the SPs the way he
wants to at this point. And he manipulates Gunn's lack of real
memories to get him to fall back in line. If Gunn knew the truth,
he would probably be putting up a much bigger fight (not that
he won't put up a big fight, but he doesn't even know what half
the battle is about).
How the rest of the season will play out is known only to ME and
the trollops. But I'm hanging on the edge of my seat, and it's
not all happy anticipation!
Replies:
[> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- meritaten, 11:17:36 04/29/04 Thu
I was shocked when Angel essentially gave the baby to the demons.
However, as I thought about it, I think that perhaps he believes
that the only way to fight the current apocalyse is to play along
with Wolfram and Hart for the time being. "Serve no master
but your ambition." He needs the resources of WRH. I'm thinking
that he sacrificed one as a part of his fight against the apocalyse.
Now, I'm not saying that I approve of his choice. In fact, his
willingness to do this seems to me to be a part of that apocalyse.
...but I think perhaps that, in his mind, he has reached the conculsion
that it was a sacrifice that had to be made.
I'm not disagreeing with the above post, just saying that I saw
a different angle. I was wondering what others thought?
[> [> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Old One, 11:46:08 04/29/04 Thu
One thing to keep in mind is that, though he did "give the
baby to the demons," Angel knows that the demons will treat
the baby very, very well for the next 13 years.
Maybe he thinks he's got enough time between now and then to make
something better happen?
Just a thought...
[> [> Winning battles only to lose the war.... --
Briar Rose, 15:15:14 04/29/04 Thu
My thought is that it had more to do with Angel finally learning
an important lesson that has kept alluding him the past 8 odd
years: You can not make others decisions for them, nor can you
protect everyone you come across. Especially from themselves....
In the case of the baby!God, this Mother to be had already made
a choice in deciding to let the demons heal her husband in exchange
for her baby.
She may not have had all the info (does anyone ever, really?)
on what the actual reason her baby was sought and why the demons
would "pay" her so well for it. But she did know that
she was trading her baby for her husband's health.
Did it appear to be a fair trade if the baby would ultimately
be killed at 13? Well, maybe not to us, and maybe not to her in
the long run. But I noticed that even after Gunn read off the
consequences, she seemed to think it was fair enough to get her
husband back.
In a way, Angel made the most diplomatic and balanced judgement
call: For once he took his own ego and agenda out of another's
choice.
There may be another issue in as to WHY he stood down on this.
But overall, I didn't see it as much more than Angle finally understanding
that everything is not under his control. People screw up. People
make bad decisions because they see something in it for them that
noone else sees. And most importantly, I believe he finally felt
EMPATHY with someone who was living a situation that he, himself,
had lived.
I doubt that the implication of Connor being sacrificed as part
of Angel's wish to bring back Cordy was unintended.
Cordy was also a "vegetable" and a demonic trade of
Angel's child for his spiritual mate's health had been made. He
may not have signed a contract, or been given express notice,
but these two storylines did have obvious parallells between mates
health, babies and the decisions we are faced with in life.
Is one life traded "too much" to keep another loved
one safe? Which life is more valuable? And who but people directly
involved should know best what would be seen as a fair trade?
In a snarky and dark way, I was proud of Angel's final decision.
And I certainly didn't miss the miniscule poke at the "Right
to life" and "Pro-Choice" camps in all of this.*L
[> [> [> Winning by losing -- Pip, 16:04:26
04/29/04 Thu
And I certainly didn't miss the miniscule poke at the "Right
to life" and "Pro-Choice" camps in all of this.*L
Possibly. Except it was explicitly stated that the pregnancy was
'third trimester.' That's when the foetus is viable outside the
womb; for many countries abortion at that stage would only be
legal if the physician proved that there was a serious health
risk to the mother. A healthy foetus in third trimester has reached
the 'premature baby' stage.
That's important because I think this was another 'sacrifice'.
I'm not sure how many parents have been willing to sacrifice their
children this series: frankly, I've lost count. But it's a lot,
starting with the little boy being used as container for a bomb
in Conviction. Fake!Roger was willing to sacrifice Wesley
(and Wesley thought that was his real father). Connor, of course.
This was yet another boy being sacrificed for his father.
Angel may have a plan; but does it involve another sacrifice?
Last week he delivered Connor up to death (oh, he didn't mean
to). This week he delivered another child up. He's killed his
vampire 'son' Lawson.
Except ... he took a stake for Spike. That might, I hope, be the
real foreshadowing of this episode. The looped cycle was broken
when Angel was willing to die for his white haired boy.
[> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Gyrus, 11:29:40 04/29/04 Thu
It seems that Angel can't make an informed choice in this situation.
Although he knows the potential consequences of defying the SPs
(i.e., the disappearance of the fake memories and the other changes
W&H made to reality), Angel doesn't know what the ultimate consequence
of knuckling under to them will be. Will there be a big, world-ending
kaboom, or will the planet merely continue to turn under the dark
cloud of W&H's ongoing "apocalypse"? And how much
better would the world be WITHOUT W&H's influence?
Angel can't answer any of these questions. What he can still do,
however, is base his decision on experience -- his own and his
friends'. Everyone Angel knows who has ever made a compromise
with evil has gotten hosed (including Wesley, Gunn, Numero Cinco,
and Angel himself), so why should this time be any different?
Angel may not know any details of what will happen if he turns
against the SPs, but he must know on some level that the ultimate
price of cooperation is likely to be higher than that of defiance.
[> [> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 12:08:01 04/29/04 Thu
but he must know on some level that the ultimate price of cooperation
is likely to be higher than that of defiance.
Hence my conclusion that he's screwed. Damned if you do, damned
if you don't.
We really, really need a season 6. I hate to see our friends ending
on this morally ambiguous note.
[> [> [> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Arethusa, 12:29:38 04/29/04
Thu
There's a distinct possibility that Angel is knuckling under,
but I don't think so. I think he has a plan of some sort, and
the first step is to lull Hamilton into a sense of false security.
But I'm also very worried for him. He's a king in a tragedy, and
his fall in now inevitable.
Does he realize that everything he said to Illyria goes for him
as well? Did he realize that he has a lot in common with Amanda,
who might be wiling to sacrifice her son so he can be important-and
she can be relieved of the burden of a child? Did he listen carefully
enough to Illyria's kingship lessons to realize that he is doing
just what she describes, sacrificing every bit of humanity he
has to get his own way, rule his kingdom?
(More on this when I write & post my review.)
[> [> [> [> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house?
(5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 13:07:58 04/29/04
Thu
There's a distinct possibility that Angel is knuckling under,
but I don't think so. I think he has a plan of some sort, and
the first step is to lull Hamilton into a sense of false security.
But I'm also very worried for him. He's a king in a tragedy, and
his fall in now inevitable.
I hope he has a higher plan he's not showing, but he was still
compromising too much last night to "hide" this alleged
plan. Angel fought hard to save a pregnant woman's child from
demons who had ambitions for it in "Judgment" (s. 2
premiere). He fought hard to save his own child from demons who
had ambitions for it in season 3. The only baby he didn't fight
hard to save was Cordelia's, and he had good reason to think the
child was no innocent spawn. Angel knowingly compromising this
woman's child for the "greater good" is an Angel who
is still corrupted, no matter how noble his secret ambitions may
be.
Did he realize that he has a lot in common with Amanda, who
might be wiling to sacrifice her son so he can be important-and
she can be relieved of the burden of a child?
And seeing how the child of the pregnant woman from last night
is supposed to die at age 13 in a ritual sacrifice, I don't like
that bit of foreshadowing.
[> [> [> [> [> I am *really* hoping -- Arethusa,
14:11:39 04/29/04 Thu
that his plans include a way to help the unborn baby.
[> [> [> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- A Slayer's Soul, 13:59:44
04/29/04 Thu
If Angel has been about anything all these years, its been about
Angel's "moral ambiguity". Angel has always been willing
to cross certain moral lines in order to do the greater good.
That is what I have always loved about this show and his character.
He's a good guy that is not always the good guy, and he does it
out of choice. He has to make the "best" of a really
bad situation. However, last night's episode really pushed the
envelope for me. I honestly don't think Angel would become THAT
morally ambiguous in that he would sacrifice the life of an innocent
child (forget that he would still have time to rescue said child
IF he wins the upcoming inevitable battle with W&H). I think
Angel has something up his black clad sleeve. I just hope it doesn't
bite him on the ass. I too, would love to see a S6, but we got
what we got, and I am praying it will have an uplifting ending.
[> Teams/departments/divisions business mumbo jumbo
-- neaux, 12:26:50 04/29/04 Thu
I cant help but wonder when Angel uses the word "TEAM",
if he is referring to the A.I. crew becoming a team to fight the
big fight/apocolypse that is going on...
or
if Angel is using the word "Team" in the business-sense
of the word meaning his Management team or department. At my work,
we are divided into teams. About 5 years ago, we were departments..
and then there was a restructuring and we had to refer to our
divisions as TEAMS. Why? well the consultant told us it was to
promote group effort. We also went from calling ourselves employees
to associates. Anyway, the whole concept I think lessens individuality
and indirectly if not directly promotes conformity while under
the guise of Unity.
But that all comes with the job.. so anyone who works and wants
to continue to work, plays this game.
So is Angel playing this Game? If he is playing the game.. he
would be trying to build a team that is a "unity mask"
to fool the partners. That is where I think the Team is headed..
but for now Angel is still trying to fill his member roster.
(a side note: if they all start wearing uniforms then I will laugh)
[> Question about Gunn and Lorne's memories...(spoilers
thru "origins" -- Nino, 13:05:57 04/29/04 Thu
I'm assuming Gunn and Lorne have their old memories back...but
they weren't anywhere near the whatever-its-called when Wes broke
it...i thought it only affected those who were physically near
it? I'm assuming that ME went this router so that A.) Connor's
"parents" would not be affected and B.) We could be
left to guess whether Connor was affected.
But how then are the others aware of what happened? Were they
just filled in? Was it even addressed? It seems problematic that
the memories would only go to those physically close...shouldn't
there have been a way to un-alter the memories of everyone that
was affected?
[> [> Nope -- Masq, 13:12:59 04/29/04 Thu
The Orlon Window only showed the past to those in its vicinity
when it broke. Angel, Wesley, Connor, Illyria.
Connor's parents don't remember their true past, neither do Gunn
or Lorne.
More explanation in my
"Origin" analysis.
[> [> [> So, they don't know... -- Nino, 22:23:24
04/29/04 Thu
Anyone else think that is super weird? Why havn't Angel or Wes
informed Gunn and Lorne? It seems like at this point, it would
make sense to come clean...i'm sure everybody else is asking the
same questions...but in "Time Bomb" was there any reference
to the possibility of telling Gunn and Lorne that I missed out
on? Did Angel decide against it, or was it not even brought up?
...on a totally unrelated note...how funny was Lorne's "oh
very mature" line? gathering from a couple other posts I
take it not everyone was pleased with Lorne's useage in this ep,
but I really enjoyed him...and so far this season, I havn't been.
[> [> [> [> Re: So, they don't know... -- Masq,
22:42:14 04/29/04 Thu
I don't recall any discussion of it, and I would have picked up
on that fast (kind of obsessed with the mind wipe). Going through
the ep again now with a fine-tooth comb.
It is weird, though. Like maybe Wes understands Angel's reasons
now and is helping him keep it quiet. Wes maybe feeling his own
guilt in what happened in the real history. If I was Wes, I'd
at least tell Gunn. Gunn deserves to know.
[> [> [> [> [> Don't tell me you're forgetting
"Him" so soon -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:14:12 04/30/04
Fri
For several weeks posters were agonizing over when Buffy would
tell the other Scoobies that Spike had a soul, then "Him"
comes along and we realize she already told them, it just happened
off screen and didn't really have an effect on anything until
that ep. Perhaps it's the same thing here. The writers don't consider
Gunn's and Lorne's reactions to be worth the screen time, and
so don't bother showing it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't tell me you're
forgetting "Him" so soon -- Masq, 14:45:49 04/30/04
Fri
The writers don't consider Gunn's and Lorne's reactions to
be worth the screen time, and so don't bother showing it.
Lorne's maybe, but not Gunn's. He is baffled by Angel's actions
right now, and he blames a lot of what happened to Fred on himself.
I think he'd have something interesting to say about Angel's culpability
in everything that's gone down this season.
Two lines of dialogue I'm thinking of from "Underneath".
In the hospital Angel says to Gunn, "I know you feel bad
about your role in what happened to Fred, and you should."
Prior to his saying that, Angel admits cryptically to Spike that
he feels HE has a role in what happened to Fred:
Spike: "Fred wanted to be here. It was her choice."
Angel: "Was it?"
Angel's blaming what happened on the memory wipe, and the memory
wipe on himself. (More
on this). Angel betrayed the whole gang, and that's no small
thing. I think he may have to pay a higher price for it before
the season ends, and Gunn will be right there to say, "My
involvement in what happened to Fred, what about YOUR involvement?"
[> Or another option (5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec)
-- s'kat, 15:51:04 04/29/04 Thu
I think ME is misleading the audience on a few things.
Don't have time right now to write a lengthy review, but here's
a few things I noticed:
1. Illyria is struggling big time. In that scene with Angel and
penalty box, with the torturer coming at them? Illyria starts
sounding a lot like Fred - so goes off on a scientific explanation
of what is happening to her, then pauses with a look of fear?
bewilderment? and says: "But these aren't my words".
Why did Illyria save Gunn? She doesn't even to be sure. She
even considers killing him.
What is happening to Illyria? Well ...
The woman with the child says her husband lost his memories and
is no longer her husband, she makes the deal so she can get her
husband's memories back. Wes says he is not the same, now he has
the other set of memories which are fraying at his sanity, much
like a virus. Gunn says the worse thing about the penalty box
was *not* the dungeon, but the false life and the nagging feeling
that underneath it was all lies.
Now Illyria has two sets of Fred's memories - she can't keep track
of which are which, much like she can't keep track of which timeframe
she is in. Time is fractured, and her skin cracks until they use
the weapon to pull the power from her...so what about inside?
What affect are Fred's memories having on Illyria? Aren't we who
are memories are?
Illyria is the name of the village in Twelth Night - in that play
Viola and Sebastian are continuously mistaken for each other,
just as Illyria is mistaken for Fred.
2. Illyria tells Angel something important, which you left out:
"the Wolf Ram and Hart have built a web with all this power...and
you don't use it, instead you play their game, worrying over morality".
Similar to what Lindsey says.
Also similar to the advice Lady MacBeth gives to Macbeth.
Another important point - Hamilton tells Wes that WR&H and Illyria
go way back and WR&H doesn't want Illyria here in any way. Makes
sense - Illyria is chaotic.
I think Angel has just decided to doth Macbeth's cape and play
a game of chess with WR&H. The question is, can he do it when
the only person left who actually trusts him is Spike? And of
course, there's Illyria the wild card.
In the corporate world - the line that nothing should matter to
you outside furthering your own ambition means basically being
ruthless to get what you want.
I think Angel is about to flip over the playing board and when
he does? Everything is up for grabs.
[> [> Ugh...several mistakes in the above, corrections(5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- s'kat (who shouldn't do this
under stress), 15:59:17 04/29/04 Thu
Why did Illyria save Gunn? She doesn't even to be sure. She
even considers killing him.
Should read: Why did Illyria save Gunn? She doesn't seem to know
why herself. She even tries to kill him before Wes stops her.
What affect are Fred's memories having on Illyria? Aren't we
who are memories are?
Should read: What affect are Fred's memories having on Illyria?
Aren't we who our memories are?
(Sorry for the typos. And mistakes.)
[> [> [> Re: Ugh...several mistakes in the above,
corrections(5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 19:19:08
04/29/04 Thu
Oh, I'm sure there's all sorts of things I'm missing. We're so
close to the end and there's speculation abounding, and my emotions
are getting involved and I tend to focus on what's important to
me and miss things.
I want Angel to be the hero in this piece, not the compromising
guy, but I don't see him being the hero in any obvious way, so
if he is I might miss it. I'm looking over there, at other things
that have my attention.
Oof, off to watch this ep a couple dozen times and catch all the
subtleties!
[> [> [> [> There's something else(5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- s'kat, 20:18:13 04/29/04 Thu
I'm not sure he's the hero exactly, but he's *not* the compromising
guy.
Something else just occurred to me - for the first time in
Angel's story he finds out he can change the future. It's not
written in stone, it does not have to happen this way.
Prophecies don't have to come to pass. It's what he tells Illyria
and it's what he does - everyone dies in Illyria's flash-forward,
but Angel changes things, and they live and she just gets her
powers down-sized.
Angel learned something *very* important in that episode.
He learned he has control over his own destiny not WR&H and not
PTB or anyone else.
So, no I don't think he's compromising himself.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: There's something else(5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Jane, 21:08:12 04/29/04
Thu
I think you've hit on a very important point, S'kat. Angel has
finally figured out he has influence on his destiny, and in doing
so perhaps has come on a way to change the whole game. I had the
distinct feeling that the end of the episode was a big mislead
to make the SPs underestimate Angel. Something Illyria said to
him handed him a light bulb..
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: There's something else(5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- heywhynot, 21:20:50 04/29/04
Thu
Especially if you consider Illyria's comments about Wolf, Ram,
& Hart. Illyria & we assume the Old Ones in general looked down
upon WR&H & eventually humanity. Now look at things, the Old Ones
are gone, W&H are powerful heading a multi-dimensional organization
that manipulate the affairs of humanity who have taken over the
earth. W&H assumes it can & always will be able to manipulate
humanity. Just as Illyria underestimated W&H, the Senior Partners
underestimate Angel. The key for Angel now is to escape that illusion
while keeping the SPs in that deluded, false sense of, reality.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: There's something
else(5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 22:38:04
04/29/04 Thu
Hey, if Angel can undermine the Wolf, Ram and Hart without messing
up what's left of the Connor spell, I'm all for it.
And I'm intrigued to know the real story behind Wolf, Ram and
Hart.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: There's something else(5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 22:06:37 04/29/04
Thu
Well, yes, he stopped something that was happening in wonky time.
But can he stop things that happen in normal time? Last week,
a prophecy was fulfilled. Connor should have died in the situation
Angel sent him into, but an unexpected element showed up and that
unexpected element enabled prophecy to be fulfilled.
What does prophecy say about W&H's apocalypse??
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: There's something else(5.19
spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Jane, 22:53:17 04/29/04
Thu
Illyria was unexpected,and she knew the wolf,ram and hart. Perhaps
her presence will be the element that undermines the apocalypse
they have planned, and allow Angel find his way.
[> [> [> [> [> [> He could do a Gollum (spoilers
for AtS 5.19 and LotR, unspoiled spec) -- Pip, 01:16:38
04/30/04 Fri
Eve's description is:
... it talks about a champion. A vampire with a soul who'll
play a pivotal role in the apocalypse. For good or evil. Anybody's
guess. That part's hazy.
Everything about that prophecy's hazy. Definitely an LA prophecy;
it's full of smog. Be funny if they've got the tenses wrong and
it's vampires with a soul, now wouldn't it? Some words,
there's no change between singular and plural.
But it sounds as if we don't know what part the vampire with soul
plays until he plays it. Good or evil, not known. It may even
be a Gollum, where the part is played for evil, but it turns out
to be the one thing needed to save the world. Or he could have
taken Illyria's words to mean that he has to focus on winning
against W & H. Nothing else matters, no considerations of morality.
After the war is won, there'll be time for the clean up (and rescuing
the baby from the fell demons).
Myself, I think we're now in the land of the prophecy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The VWaS's role in
the big apocalypse -- Masq, 06:36:39 04/30/04 Fri
Thanks for reminding me of that. The idea that the "Vampire
with a Soul"'s role in the Apocalypse would be murky as to
whether he is on the side of good or evil has been part of "Angel"
lore since season 2:
From my site (Destiny):
"The Prophecies of Aberjian, which speak of "the Vampire
with a Soul" are a little more complex than just "he
will fight many battles and become human as a reward". The
prophecies also indicate that the Vampire with a Soul will play
a key role in a final apocalyptic battle, but they are vague about
which side he will fight on--good or evil. Wolfram and Hart made
much of this vagueness in season 2 when they attempted to turn
souled Angel dark. There have also been indications on the show
that the shanshu is a reward that will be bestowed by the Powers
that Be for averting the apocalypse (I Will Remember You), and
that the Vampire with a Soul would, at some point in the process
of fulfilling his destiny, have all his connections to the Powers
that Be severed (To Shanshu in L.A.).
But prophecies in the Buffyverse are tricky things. Even when
they come to pass, they do not always play out in the way they
were interpreted before hand, and they are sometimes partially
false or incomplete. For a more detailed examination of the prophecies
concerning the Vampire with a Soul, go here:
"That's just the epilogue, princess": The
prophecies about the Vampire with a Soul"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, anytime
you want me to restate the obvious, I'm right here [grin]
-- Pip, 08:09:23 04/30/04 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Not Entirely True...There's
something else(5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- A Slayer's
Soul, 09:19:57 04/30/04 Fri
"Something else just occurred to me - for the first time
in
Angel's story he finds out he can change the future. It's not
written in stone, it does not have to happen this way.
Prophecies don't have to come to pass. It's what he tells Illyria
and it's what he does - everyone dies in Illyria's flash-forward,
but Angel changes things, and they live and she just gets her
powers down-sized."
Actually, Angel has, or should have by now, know that he can in
effect change the future - he did it in IWRY, by turning back
time, so Buffy wouldnít remember how he turned human, he
did it again with regard to his sonís memories, and finally,
he should have realized from S1 "Prophecy Girl" that
prophecies don't always come true. But, I understand what you
are saying here. HE has the power to change the future, not TPTB
or making a deal with W&H, right?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not Entirely True...There's
something else(5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- s'kat,
13:23:43 04/30/04 Fri
Actually, Angel has, or should have by now, know that he can
in effect change the future - he did it in IWRY, by turning back
time, so Buffy wouldnít remember how he turned human, he
did it again with regard to his sonís memories, and finally,
he should have realized from S1 "Prophecy Girl" that
prophecies don't always come true. But, I understand what you
are saying here. HE has the power to change the future, not TPTB
or making a deal with W&H, right?
The difference between what happens in TimeBomb and what happens
in Home and IWRY, is TimeBomb is the first time *Angel* changes
things actively. In Home - WR&H contract Vail and a bunch of powerful
warlocks to shift reality.
Angel's isn't taken an active role per se - he's made a deal with
someone else to do so, he's bargained with them.
Same thing happens with IWRY - except instead of WR&H he has the
oracles, who he bargains with, bringing them a watch, and pleading
with them to re-run time. Granted he plays the events differently.
But it is the PTB/oracles who re-run time for him. Here, he's
caught in a time wave, he glimpses what the future could be and
he takes an *active* role in changing it. It is the first time
Angel has taken an *active* role in changing his destiny, before
he's been somewhat passive regarding it - following the rules.
It's an important distinction.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not Entirely
True...There's something else(5.19 spoilers and unspoiled spec)
-- A Slayer's Soul, 13:51:58 04/30/04 Fri
I got it! Thanks so much for the explanation. I've always found
Angel to be an enigma. I can never quite figure him out. Not like
with Buffy, my favorite character in the Verse. She was a complex
character as well, but I always understood her motivations to
do the things she did - even when I totally disagreed with her.
I got her! Angel, challenges me! I don't know if it's because
the character is so well written as to be that complex, or the
continuity is just totally OFF. I choose to believe the former!
Angel, especially, in the earlier seasons for me, is just one
of the BEST characters ever written in the verse. Next to the
Buffster. And Spike. And Giles
[> Re: Reality bomb? Or moral dog-house? (5.19 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Rufus, 23:29:11 04/29/04 Thu
Illyria is making some very good points and they have influenced
Angels choice. Call it adaptation, or learning.
[> [> What Illyria said, what Gunn said (5.19 spoilers)
-- Masq, 09:31:23 04/30/04 Fri
Illyria is making some very good points and they have influenced
Angels choice. Call it adaptation, or learning.
Yes, and I'm going over them with a fine-tooth comb.
She has a whole speech in the training room on her politcal philosophy.
But her philosophy is disturbingly Machiavellian. What Angel gets
out of it is the mystery to be solved, because I don't think he's
literally taking her advice. I don't think he's becoming the kind
of ruler she espouses. Perhaps he is finally seeing The Senior
Partners more clearly by looking at them through Illyria's lens.
Gunn said somethings that also intrigued me that might be hints
to the audience:
"Any demonic pact should be entered into with caution. They
can be riddled with obscure clauses and double-talk."
"This contract has got some wiggle room in there, they always
do. "
Maybe Angel can find a loop-hole to fight the SPs without technically
breaking his contract.
[> [> [> I have to disagree a little -- Random,
13:46:25 04/30/04 Fri
Illyria was more draconian than Machiavellian. The crux of the
philosophy of a Machiavellian prince was the interaction with
his subjects and how he is perceived. The promulgation of characteristics
traditionally seen as undesirable in a monarch would be a deliberate
strategem to keep the populace under control. If a prince is feared
rather than loved (perhaps a key element in the Illyrian scheme,
but she seems to believe that she was loved and feared simultaneously),
the prince must nevertheless avoid outright animosity amongst
his subjects. He must appear virtuous even if that requires
deep deception. The prince is not exempt from social contracts
-- indeed, "The Prince" is, in effect, an outline of
a social contract, albeit skewed toward the enlightenment of the
ruler rather than the subject. At its heart, Machiavellianism
is about appearances. Adaptation is compromise, she says with
no small amount of disdain. But failure to adapt is the very antithesis
of the Machiavellian prince.
Illyria still looks upon a world that crumbled into dust a million
years ago. She acknowledges the social constructs and the restraints
placed upon her, but it is a pro forma acknowledgment.
The playing field has changed, yes...but she doesn't grasp that
the rules have changed as well. This is literally a world not
made for her. She knows only one paradigm: Self and other. Pure
dichotomy. For humans -- and W&H, for that matter -- the interactions
are far more complex, with a multitude of others who are also
"selfs." The Will to Power exists in all, and that is
what Illyria doesn't comprehend. She is not prepared to take into
account the fact that she is just one among many. For thousands
of years, would-be conquerers have tried to subscribe to the draconian
absolutism that Illyria promotes. All have ultimately failed.
Nero and Hitler are suicides, Phocas is executed, the Soviet Union
crumbles. Illyria doesn't appear to grasp the dissolution of absolute
power in the human era, the failure of ambition tied with the
unwillingness to compromise. A ruler does what is necessary, and
that may prove to be the crux of Angel's decision. Joining W&H wasn't
strictly necessary in any generally understood meaning
of the word. Necessity is an odd little creature, prone to misunderstandings
and blind alleys, and sometimes it can't be recognized clearly
until after the fact. Perhaps all they have done at W&H will prove
to be necessary in retrospect...they have compromised, and to
the casual glance, appear to be playing W&H's game, manipulated
by the Senior Partners. But, as in any chess game, there comes
a time when one must place oneself in real danger in order to
outmaneuver one's opponent. Once the pawns have advanced, the
key pieces must move behind enemy lines. There is no other way
to win short of absolutely disastrous play by one's opponent.
[> [> [> [> Thanks for this -- Masq, 14:03:59
04/30/04 Fri
I'm putting together a political philosophy of Illyria section.
Between you and dlgood, I should get it right!
It's been a while since I took political philosophy. Ewww. Not
my favorite subject.
[> [> [> [> Remember what I said........ --
Rufus, 17:25:54 04/30/04 Fri
Illyria made some really good points, but I never made a judgement
on those comments. Look to the conversations she has with Angel
where he seems to tune out. Good points don't mean they are morally
right, just a point of view from a being who has Wolfram and Hart
rather nervous. Remember that Angel was told by Lindsey not to
play W&H's game....so why not play a whole new game.
[> [> [> [> This is an amazing post -- CTH,
09:40:57 05/05/04 Wed
The New Syndrome -- Joyce, 11:44:10 04/29/04
Thu
Out of curiosity, I had decided to read some comments about the
latest ANGEL episode, "Time Bomb". After reading them,
I see that what I had fear is actually happening. Amy Acker is
taking over the show. Even worse, the show (despite what many
believe are well-written episodes) is falling into the "Seven-of-Nine
Syndrome".
If I were Joss Whedon, I would stop fooling myself and allow Amy
Acker to become the show's new lead . . . which is what I suspect
he would love to happen.
Replies:
[> Re: The New Syndrome -- heywhynot, 13:30:05 04/29/04
Thu
I do not think it is becoming the Illyria show. The last couple
had Illyria as a side character her she was brought to the front
but Angel was right there with her. The conclusion of the latest
episode was about Angel & where he is taking things. The episode
while serving the purpose of lessoning Illyria's powers, the underlying
discussion was about ruling & what it means to rule & how do it
well. The previews for the next episode seem to focus on an Angel/Spike
buddy adventure in the next episode with flashbacks to Dru & Darla
& hints of Buffy. Not much room I would think to focus in on Illyria.
Through the time adventure with Illyria & her points about commanding
a kingdom, Angel has changed. The question is whether he had decided
to accept his lot in W&H (play by their rules) or if he now has
some plan to deal with them that includes making it seem like
he is following their game plan but in reality he has changed
the game. I suspect that is where the remaining episodes will
go.
[> [> Are there future spoilers in the post above?
-- Pip, 05:20:27 04/30/04 Fri
I got as far as 'the previews for future episodes seem to..',
screamed 'oh, b*ll*cks!' and hurriedly hit the back button.
Could you warn us in the header if you're using info about future
episodes in the post? I'm having much fun speculating madly, and
knowing takes the joy of speculation away. Thanks.
[> [> [> Speculative Spoilers from the Trailer for
the Next Episode-Sorry -- heywhynot, 06:51:22 04/30/04
Fri
Pip sorry about that. Thought I posted another message stating
general spoilers from Time Bomb & spec from Trailer. Computer
crashed right after I posted and evidently never was posted. Once
again sorry.
Though I might add it was not "previews for future episodes"
but the previews from the next episdoe (the trailer they show
at the end of the episode hyping the next one). So hopefully nothing
is too ruined.
[> Let's go through the list -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:28:55
04/29/04 Thu
I'm going to go through each character and try to determine which
episodes they could be said to be the stars of. There will be
a few cases of ties, of course, as well as some disagreements,
but I don't think there will really be that many.
Angel: "Conviction", "Unleashed", "The
Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco", "Destiny", "Soul
Purpose", "You're Welcome", "Why We Fight",
"Smile Time", "Origin", "Time Bomb"
Wesley: "Lineage", "Shells"
Gunn: "Conviction", "Underneath"
Lorne: "Life of the Party"
Spike: "Just Rewards", "Hellbound", "Destiny",
"Soul Purpose", "Damage"
Harmony: "Harm's Way"
(and now what all this was building up to)
Fred/Illyria: "Hellbound" (possibly), "A Hole in
the World", "Shells", "Time Bomb"
All in all, as I judge stars of episodes, Fred and/or Illyria
have starred in four episodes (if we include "Hellbound"),
and three of those had another character starring in as well.
This makes her the third most frequently starring character this
season, behind Angel and Spike. It may seem like Joss is giving
all the attention to Amy Acker, but that's probably just because
all/most of her episodes have come within a five episode span
rather than spread out across the season. Plus, we went into a
period of commercials right after "Shells", and that
can sometimes make us give unjust significance to the episode/s
right before the break (as I believe occured in Buffy Season Seven
with remarks to characters being "chess pieces" and
Giles acting odd). Fred/Illyria may be getting some extra attention
right now, but Angel is clearly still the star of the show, and
Spike's managed to hold onto his spot as number two.
[> Huh? -- Random, 17:57:29 04/29/04 Thu
[> Look! No Evidence, No Explinations of obscure terms,
just inflamatory remarks! -- Majin Gojira, 20:05:30 04/29/04
Thu
Oh man, Nick Brendon admitted to rehab :(
-- Vash the Stampede, 13:19:56 04/29/04 Thu
Just read on scifi.com that Brendon was admitted for alcohol abuse
treatment. Poor guy, hope he is able to overcome it. Also, did
ya'll know he was married? His wife's name is Theresa.
Replies:
[> He made the announcement himself... -- Old One, 15:03:57
04/29/04 Thu
At Vulcon on Sunday, and there's a press release about it on his
offical site.
He's making a very difficult move very publicly and deserves a
great deal of respect and support for that. He recognizes that
he has been living with a disease and that he needs treatment.
(His wife's name is Tressa, BTW.)
;o)
[> [> Yes, I respect him a great deal for his announcement...
-- Rob, 15:08:05 04/29/04 Thu
...not to mention admitting he has a problem and seeking help
in the first place. I have to say, having met him a few weeks
ago in an elevator of the Buffy/Angel con in the Meadowlands,
that he is probably the nicest, most down-to-earth celebrity I've
ever met. He was just so easygoing and friendly, and later in
the night remembered me when I went up to get an autograph. When
I started to walk away, he told me to come back, because he wanted
to shake my hand, which was just such an incredibly classy thing
to do. I wish him all the best.
Rob
[> Question -- luvthistle1 -wisheing him the best!,
03:38:53 04/30/04 Fri
... I glad that he's getting the help he deserves. but do anyone
think that, because he has a drinking problem, was the reason
why it seem like most of his role was going to "Andrew".
I mean, Xander was the comic relief on Btvs, yet he was reduce
to fixing Windows in season 7. Could that also be the reason why
we didn't get Xander on Angel, in the episode "damage",
but instead we get "Andrew". Who seem like a replacement
for Xander. Xander has more of a connection. so do you think his
drinking problem let to "ME" recasting the part to Andrew?
[> [> Re: Question -- Rob, 08:36:49 04/30/04 Fri
I don't think so. Whenever there have been mentions of on-set
problems, no interviews ever gave any indication that the actors
were anything but 100% professional when filming. If he were showing
up drunk or that sort of thing, it would have been hard to hide
that, and I'm sure word would have gotten out earlier. I think
that it is probably the other way around: the drinking worsening
as a result of feeling underused and unappreciated on the show.
At the Meadowlands con, he spoke pretty frankly about feeling
hurt by the way his character was treated in the last season.
Also, there were specific reasons that Andrew was in "Damage"
and not Nick: (a) Nick was busy. At the time, he was probably
just finishing up the filming of Celeste in the City. And
(b) Andrew was not just a Xander replacement in Damage.
The fact is that Xander would not have worked as well in the episode,
for a number of reasons: (1) The writers wanted a character who
didn't have issues with Spike, and in fact, liked Spike. Had Xander
been brought on, there would have been a whole different set of
issues, both with Spike and Angel; (2) When Andrew "betrays"
Angel and Co. by taking Dana with him and his band of Slayers,
there would have been no twist were it Xander. Andrew seems innocent
and harmless, and is a hero-worshipper, making Angel and Co. trust
him more, thus helping him turn the tables on them later. There
is no way Xander, on the other hand, could have pulled that sort
of subterfuge, because Angel and Spike would have been instantly
suspicious of him, particularly were he to have pretended to be
their friend.
Rob
[> [> [> I agree -- LittleBit, 08:46:52 04/30/04
Fri
I also think that another reason it had to be Andrew and not any
of the Scoobies is that, while some wouldn't have had the same
issues with Spike and Angel, Andrew is really the only one who
wouldn't tell Buffy about Spike simply because Spike asked him
not to. I don't think using the character of Andrew in "Damage"
was the result of the other, bigger, more popular characters [read:
actors] not being available, but a 'best choice for the needs
of the episode' by the writers. As far as I've heard (not that
I spend much time looking) there haven't been lots of rumors about
the Scooby actors being approached and unavailable for that episode.
5.19 Timebomb ideas- SPOILERS of course --
Alistair, 13:41:21 04/29/04 Thu
I think this episode has begun to set up the arc for the series
finale as well as answer some interesting questions about Illyria.
Hamilton told Wes that the Senior Partners are old acquaintances
with Illyria, but don't consider her their problem. Music plays
out and Wes is intrigued. Now he knows that Illyria knows what
the wolf the ram and the hart are. All he needs to do is ask her.
Of course they have changed much over the last few million years,
but they were there with her when she reigned.
Illyria also points out the very point of living for the Old Ones.
To live forever and conquer all. The Old Ones were not evil in
the sense of human evil. Their system of morals was just very
different. Their entire lives revolved only around the destruction
of their enemies, and their rule. They hungered for power, and
kept playing games in their world.
This episode was the first to call the Earth of the Demon Age
by name. Primordium. Illyria was God-KIng of the Primordium. Wesley
looked up all pre-Christian references to primordium and the demon
age and the old ones. It was after Christianity that the word
demon becomes associated with the new breed of demon-human hybrids.
Demons which look more or less human, which have limited power,
which hide from the human plague which rules the Earth.
Illyria also speaks of vampires in her day. In her day, in the
Primordium, humans existed and so did vampires. Perhaps she spoke
of the Turok Han species, which probably came from snother species
of human. Giles said that the last demon to leave this reality
fed off a human and mixed their blood. It is obvious that this
story is not true. The demons left very recently and they coexisted
with the humans for millions of years. Illyria says that the vampires
were the muck at their feet, they were the smile that fed on itself,
they were pretty at night and sparkled and stank, and she could
still smell it on him. They were nothing, as were the wolf ran
and hart.
I guess none of this is really that important in the current sense
of the show, but at least now we know that a lot of what has been
said in the favor of the good guys (things giles has said) is
not true. We know that the story is a bit more complex then...
first came the earth, then came the demons, then came a girl to
fight the demons. ANother thibng to note of the timeline... Illyria
said that the vampires were there when she was young- it sounded
like a memory of childhood, like she had parents, or some sort
of asexual birth and while she developed, she learned of the ways
of the Primordium. Its really fascinating to think about it, if
not scary, that the Buffy verse was once not the perfect sunny
world it is now. The Earth was not simply a demon world, but it
was demonic, where the Old Ones warred as we would breathe, and
were so powerful that they would not even be able to die.
Replies:
[> I still think Giles could have been correct in "The
Harvest" -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:54:48 04/29/04 Thu
From the perspective of historians, compared to millions of years
of demonic rule, vampires existing for a couple of centuries before
the Old Ones left is a very short period of time. Also, you mention
Illyria may have meant the Turok-Han when talking about vampires;
well, Giles didn't believe the Turok-Han existed until Season
7, so his speech in the premiere probably refered to the current
species of vampire.
Besides, "Get It Done" and "End of Days" already
said that the Old Ones still existed on earth in the early days
of humans. A Slayer killed "the last pure demon to walk the
earth" (aka the thing that made vampires), and the Shadowmen
did their spell when "demons walked the earth".
[> [> Re: I still think Giles could have been correct
in "The Harvest" -- Alistair, 15:51:40 04/29/04
Thu
Well, actually, Giles said that the last demon to leave this reality
created the first vampire, and the last pure demon to walk the
Earth was killed on top of the hellmouth by the slayer's Scythe.
Killed and left is surely different. I think Giles was just being
cryptic is saying that the last demon to leave created the vampire...
perhaps because the vampire, in a relativesly demon free world
is able to gain largeamounts of power. In Illyria's time, they
were nothing, but as humans ruled over the Earth, they rose to
become the scourge among them.
The female guardian spoke of the last pure demon to walk the Earth,
likely the demons were all banished at different times, maybe
some left of their own accord for whatever reason, and others
were exiled into other dimensions. We know the humans and demons
coexisted for a long time, but the whole vampires are vestiges
of the old ones story doesnt seem to connect with what Illyria
has been saying.
[> [> [> That is not dead which can eternal lie, and
in strange eons even death may die! -- Majin Gojira, 19:55:41
04/29/04 Thu
Old One's do not "die" as we know it. Illyria was "killed"
before she rose within Fred. All of the other intoombed old ones
are have also been "Killed".
It makes ya think about what lay dreaming beneath the Pacific
Ocean...
[> [> [> [> Dead Cthulhu in his watery tomb
-- Vickie, 10:56:25 04/30/04 Fri
[> [> [> [> Re: That is not dead which can eternal
lie, and in strange eons even death may die! -- Alistair,
13:31:32 05/02/04 Sun
There is however a difference between "left this reality"
and "killed". Even if the Old One that was the last
pure demon to wlak the Earth was killed and entombed in the Deeper
Well, it was not exiled to another dimensions like the Old OPnes
who were still alive. Despite the great number of Old Ones in
the Deeper Well, it is unlikely that all of them were truly immortal
and could not die. SOme probably died and that was the end of
it.
Also Drogyn himself said, "the greater ones were interred,
for death was not always their end".
Not always, implies sometimes.
The hero and the individual (spoilers to current
episode) -- Katrina, 15:45:25 04/29/04 Thu
In later seasons of AtS, there have been shifts in the characterization
of the supporting (i.e., non-Angel) cast from individuals with
rounded lives to ones whose entire existences seem to revolve
around Angel and his personal mission. To some extent, the heroís
mission narrows the environs and limits the destinies of the characters
around him, who seem to subsume their own heroic destinies into
Angelís Destiny with a capital D. (I could also talk about
this notion in relation to later-season BtVS, but that would make
me cranky, so Iíll do so only as I relate it to AtS).
I could interpret some of these changes as writing malaise, or
I could fall into the intentional fallacy and read in meaning
by relating them to JW or ME, but instead Iím going to
attempt to look at how the theme plays out into the current season.
In the beginning (a.k.a. Season 1), Cordelia had her own apartment,
friends and dates, and a whole separate career she was aspiring
to, apart from the mission of AI and the fight against evil (in
the specific form of vampires and demons). Season 1 Gunn had a
whole separate life, filled with friends, enemies, and acquaintances,
and his own mission leading a group of vampire-hunters. In Season
1, Wesley was shown as kind of a pathetic figure because he was
at loose ends and hanging around the office. As his character
developed in Season 2, he acquired a girlfriend and it was established
apart from that particular character that he had a social and
sexual life outside the office: Angelís reference to him
having sex with a bleached blonde; his dart-hustling in what appeared
to be his usual British pub hangout. When Lorne was introduced
in Season 3, he, like Gunn, had a full life that only occasionally
crossed paths with Angel and his mission. He was a public performer,
owned a successful business, and had a place of importance in
the demon community.
Within Season 2, however, seeds were planted for all these characters
that would come to fruition of sorts in Season 3. In Season 2,
Cordelia began detaching from her outside life as she devoted
herself more to the mission of fighting evil (Wesleyís
comment about how she has become a ìsolitary girlî).
In the episode ìBelonging,î her sense of humiliation,
at the point of her biggest professional success so far, helps
pave the way for the events of ìBirthday,î when she
commits herself totally to Angelís mission and abandons
her other aspirations completely. Throughout Season 2, both Gunn
and Lorne start to spend more time with AI and Angelís
mission. In ìOver the Rainbow,î Gunn, initially reluctantly,
commits to a mission with Angel that is couched in terms of his
choosing a loyalty to AI over his loyalties to the group of people
heíd been working with before. This will come to a head
in Season 3ís ìThat Old Gang of Mine,î after
which there will be no apparent question of his leaving the AI
group, despite sometimes chafing at his place as an employee or
underling. Lorne also, and also reluctantly, commits to the same
mission, after which his place with the group is secured, and
in Season 3 his nightclub Caritas will be destroyed, leaving him
at loose ends and living at the hotel that is the AI base of operations.
As the other supporting characters have their independent existences
stripped away, for a long time Wesley remains the only member
of the group who continues to function independently of AI through
Season 3 and into Season 4. Once he is alienated from the group,
he starts a hot affair with a sexy lawyer, rustles up a group
of independent demon-fighters (who, once he returns to the fold,
are never seen or mentioned again), and shows that, on his own,
he would be perfectly capable of continuing to fight the good
fight under his own auspices. Just like Gunn used to, and even
like Lorne used to, in a pacifistic way, by promoting peace and
understanding been demons and humankind. They didnít need
Angelís leadership in the first place, but once they joined
up with him, their individual heroism seems to be absorbed into
supporting Angelís overarching personal mission.
This has an interesting echo in the whole groupís estrangement
from Angel in Season 2, and their eventual independent success
that season as demon-fighters. In retrospect, this seems like
the last gasp of their collective individual identities, if youíll
pardon a seeming oxymoron. Especially contrast the Cordelia who,
in Season 2, clearly tells Angel that they donít need in
him, with the version in Season 3 who proclaims that her loyalty
is to Angel and Angel alone (ìI was demonized for that
man.î) In the end, of course, Wesley does return, and in
Season 5 becomes again completely consumed with the life of AI,
with his personal life represented by a visit from his (supposed)
father to the office, and his on-site romance with co-worker Fred.
A further shift begins to be seen in Season 3 with the integration
of two major characters into the group who are never shown to
have any external existence apart from Angel, his mission, his
friends and his foes: Fred and Connor. After Fred is rescued from
a demon dimension and brought back to L.A., she lives at the hotel,
and is not seen to have any other friends or life outside the
team. (ìFredlessî is the only episode Iíve
never seen, so itís possible that episode does shed some
light). She never returns to her interrupted schooling or to library
work, is never seen contacting old friends, or in any way resuming
her old life until the events of ìSupersymmetry,î
which came something out of the blue. Likewise, when Connor returns
as an adolescent, he, like Fred, emerges from a demon dimension,
and although Fred idolizes Angel while Connor despises him, Connorís
life thereafter is utterly dominated by Angel, his team, and their
enemies.
Throughout Season 4, except for the characters who are overtly
alienated (Wesley, and later Connor and Cordelia, who stay in
a squat with no visible means of support), everyone is living
at the hotel and seeming to have no other life outside the work
of AI. The focus on attractions and romances between AI members
in Seasons 3 and 4, maligned by some fans, could be seen partly
as a result of the shrinking of the charactersí worlds
to the point where they donít seem to know anybody but
each other, except peripherally, in relation to cases theyíre
working on or threats theyíre fighting. While Cordelia
and Gunn were once seen going to parties and knowing other people,
those external friendships are long gone by this point, sacrificed
to their commitment to AI. Fred and Connorís experiences
in the demon dimensions have left them out of touch with the society
they have returned to, and therefore they remain largely in the
orbit of the supernaturally attuned AI gang. Cordeliaís
case has a twist in Season 4, since she spends part of her time
in a different type of mystical dimension, but her return puts
her somewhat in the same situation as Fred and Connor were in.
Suffering from amnesia, and then a kind of undifferentiated post-traumatic
funk for much of the season, Cordelia returns to her old life
to find her apartment gone, and her link with her last remaining
outside friend, Phantom Dennis, severed. Where Cordelia was once
a very independent member of the group, with a well-established
outside home and separate career path, she is now in the dependent
position Fred was in on her arrival from Pylea, with no outside
existence beyond her room at the hotel and whatever she can do
to help AI.
The trend has slowly increased until, in the current season, we
never seem to see any of the characters anywhere but Wolfram & Hart
(except for a few scenes at what must be the W&H bar). Since the
members of the team rarely interact with each other or act as
friends anymore, it appears that they have little if any personal
existence beyond their ceaseless work. The two characters added
to the cast this season, Spike and Illyria, have both at times
seemed to be hanging around the Wolfram & Hart offices for no
particular reason. Itís as if thatís where they
mystically emerged, so they never bothered to leave. But, mirroring
the state of the Summers house in BtVS Season 7, thereís
no longer anywhere else where they can go and still be on the
show. Each series has winded up with the hero largely isolated
in a specific place, surrounded by but still alienated from people
who seem to exist only to serve the heroís crusade. In
each case, the hero is a supernaturally endowed fighter for good,
supposedly also endowed with a specific and important destiny:
thatís Angel (Iím not digressing into the Angel-Spike-Shanshu
triangle), and Buffy, (whose parallels in BtVS Seasons 6 and 7
I wonít discuss in detail here). Like the bad guys in ìThe
House Always Wins,î the heroes seem to have absorbed the
destinies of the other characters, whose individual heroism and
external lives have gotten lost in their increasing devotion to
the hero-figure. It is as if fighting the good fight of good against
evil in general is subsumed in a heroic cult of personality. While
I was personally not happy with the way this theme played out
on BtVS, Iím hopeful this theme will be better resolved
on AtS. (Thatís the affective fallacy at work, but Iím
only human). From such strong and inspiring statements of purpose
as Buffyís speech to Angel in ìAmends,î Angelís
speech to Kate in ìîEpiphany,î and his speech
to Connor in ìDeep Down,î itís possible that
the intent is to show that the real core of heroism lies in the
individual fighting the everyday good fight. The small-scale heroism
of the ìall that matters is what we doî school may
be intrinsically incompatible with the desire to follow a powerful
or charismatic leader, or with the kind of grand gestures and
world-saving Angel and Buffy are known for.
Replies:
[> A really excellent post -- Rahael, 17:13:35 04/29/04
Thu
So much food for thought!
Must go and digest....
[> [> Aw, shucks! (blushes) -- Katrina, 17:29:35
04/29/04 Thu
[> [> [> Moving On -- Roy, 13:30:20 04/30/04
Fri
An excellent post! May I also add that one of the reasons why
the AI team seems doomed, in compare to the Scoobies, is that
in the end, the latter managed to mature beyond revolving their
lives around Buffy. Yes, all of the surviving Scoobies are part
of the new Watchers Council, but didn't you notice in "Damage"?
Despite still being friends and working together as Council members,
they're also leading their own separate lives, thousands of miles
away from each other.
The Fang Gang, who are allegedly older and more mature, had regressed
to revolving their lives around Angel. Wesley had the opportunity
to strike out on his own as a competent demon hunter. Instead,
he returned to the AI fold. Cordelia's worship of Angel in S3
led to her tragic circumstances of late S4 and "You're Welcome".
I never understood why Fred felt it was necessary to leave her
parents after being separated from them for five to six years,
in order to be with the AI team. Even worse, she decided to stick
with Angel and join Wolfram & Hart, despite her reservations.
Lorne, who really had no reason to stick with them, dismissed
restarting his career and hooked up with the gang. And Gunn had
abandoned his gang, which he was leading, to become a minion of
Angel's. I'm not saying that Gunn should have stuck with his old
gang or in his old neighborhood. But he could have risen in the
world, on his own, without joining Angel and later, Wolfram & Hart.
[> [> [> [> Good points -- Katrina, 06:59:38
05/01/04 Sat
You're right, I did forget about the Scooby update in "Damage,"
I think just because it was offstage.
I think it's the situations of Gunn and Lorne that trouble me
the most, because it seems like they've given up on the strengths
they had to fit in more with Angel's mission. Gunn because he
was clearly a natural leader who's not leading anymore, and Lorne
because he has such an obvious talent, which he's hardly using.
I don't remember when the last time was that we heard him sing.
There's no shame in following one's own talents to one's own destiny,
and it can do its own kind of good, even if they're not as dramatic
as Angel's.
[> My daughter (spoilers to Time Bomb) -- Lunasea, 19:00:01
04/29/04 Thu
My oldest daughter is now 7 years old. She wants to be a fire
fighter and an astronaut and a teacher and a photographer and
a writer and a dancer and a singer and a horse. That is just this
week.
I think the narrowing of focus is part of growing up. In order
to do something well, it takes time. Before we know what it is
we want to do, we explore lots of things. Pre-Angel, the gang
was exploring lots of things. As they find something important
in life, they devote more and more time to that.
That drains them. As a mother, I know how this can drain you.
My daughter still can be any of those things (well, except for
the horse), but as I make choices, I limit my future choices.
I can't limit them too far, or it has negative effects on me as
a person.
This has been demonstrated with the characters. Wesley was so
focused on the mission, that he lost himself. The mission/Angel
even turned on him. It took him a while to regroup and he did
this not just by becoming a demon fighter in his own right, but
with his relationship with Lilah. That relationship helped recharge
him as a human. When he was recharged and completely ready to
go back to the fight, he was able to leave her.
This happened with Fred as well. It was her relationship with
Knox, someone outside the group that didn't have the mission,
that allowed her the distance to be able to finally see Wesley.
This is similar to what happens with Gunn and Gwen. It was Gwen's
words, another person outside the group that doesn't have the
mission, that gives him the confidence not to need Fred any more.
In "Underneath" Lorne goes to a bar, outside the group,
in order to get recharged so he can put the bells back on.
Spike is in the interesting position of being outside the group.
He gets recharged when he joins the group. I like the fight scenes
with Spike and Illyria. Fred has been changed from heart to heartless.
Spike is pounding on heartless as he is connecting with Angel,
as he is finding a purpose. Spike has always liked to fight. This
is a special fight. He is fighting at Angel's request. He is fighting
to help the team. He is chosen to fight because Angel doesn't
want anyone else to get hurt.
Is it the small scale heroism that really matters? I raise my
daughters, but I also volunteer at the school and am a Brownie
Leader. My circle of influence keeps expanding. I teach my daughter
to think globally. I don't want her to feel that she can only
do small things. When we can do the big things, we should.
I'm wondering if current affairs have influenced this change in
Joss' message of small acts of kindness. It is by neglecting the
big picture that the Apocalypse can start. If there is an apocalypse,
there is a big picture that needs to be considered. The gang has
chosen to focus on this. They need to still be recharged by other
things. It is a never-ending game of balance.
Such is growing up. Such is life.
[> [> But isn't Angel's problem that in part he's too
focused on the big picture? -- Bjekley, 15:00:12 05/01/04
Sat
How did he end up at Wolfram and Hart? Because again and again
he was told he was an important player, that he would be the defining
figure of the apocalypse, and increasingly his actions have tended
to reflect that. Leading up to a situation where he is working
for an evil law firm because he thinks that's the best way to
save the world.
One thing that strikes me about both BtvS and AtS is that more
and more they have become distanced from ordinary people, the
people they are meant to be saving. It's great that they want
to save the world, but at what price? Are they more likeable for
purely focusing on the big picture?
A minor character of the shows that interests me is Lily/Anne,
but mostly for the fact that she shows the importance of the little
actions, the importance for caring about others. But for Buffy's
approach, humanity, heroism and caring about people whoever they
may be, Anne wouldn't have wound up running some shelter for young
kids. Doesn't do too much for the world in the big picture, but
the big picture is surely made up of many smaller pictures, Anne's
being one of them. That kindness, that influence, being operated
on a day to day level, however small, can have effect and spread.
The smallest acts of kindness...
That's what is important, just as important as preventing the
apocalypse. Because the apocalypse can only ever be metaphorical
for the audience, and if it has to have any meaning it has to
come down to how we treat each other.
Buffy falters in season seven because all she sees is the big
picture, all that is important is saving the day, beating evil.
She increasingly forgets about the importance of the small picture,
of how you live your day to day life. And she suffers because
of that, and makes mistakes. It's only by getting back to that
importance of connecting with people, of those around her, that
she finds away to win.
[> [> [> I'm not so sure I see the show this way
-- Lunasea, 07:42:34 05/02/04 Sun
The characters and many of the audience see it as a conflict of
big v little picture. They can focus on the apocalypse or their
friends. It is that word or that is the problem. Life is about
balance. Last season, Buffy managed to both save/change the world
and empower the Potentials. It wasn't about small acts v big acts.
It was about doing what was right and thinking outside the box.
That is the LIE that runs through the series, this idea of X v
Y. In the end, X and Y can be accomplished, not by focusing on
X or Y, but by just thinking outside the box that says that only
X or Y can be accomplished.
I think that is the ultimate message of the shows. It isn't about
the smallest acts of kindness being more important or saving the
world. It is about thinking outside the box. Sometimes this means
Xander brings Buffy back to life, thus fulfilling the prophecy,
but with an addendum. Sometimes this means sending Angel (not
Angelus) to hell with a kiss. Sometimes this means letting the
school help her. Sometimes this means merging with others. Sometimes
this means dying in place of someone. Sometimes this means someone
else saves the day completely. Sometimes this means that she doesn't
have to listen to the beginning of the show. What all of those
have in common is thinking outside the box, a box that the Patriarchy
tried to put her in and is imprisoned in themselves.
Same thing with Angel. "Don't believe everything you are
foretold." Connor was saved with a lie. No prophecy is fulfilled
how we think it will be, but they are fulfilled. Neither side
of the argument is completely supported.
It is an interesting world, one that seeks to free us from the
box.
[> [> [> [> I didn't mean to say that it was one
against the other -- Bjerkley, 11:48:45 05/02/04 Sun
But rather the point you make here, that the important thing is
balance. Where and when Angel and Buffy have taken wrong turns,
it's largely jettisoning the smaller things in the belief that
winning the ultimate war is all that counts, that the only thing
that matters is the mission. And that belief, and acting on that,
has caused them a lot of problems.
The further someone gets away from acts of individual kindness,
however good their intentions may be, it's likely they get further
and further away from what is really important or why they are
doing whatever it is. It's like those human rights saviours or
people doing good works being tyrants in the home, or having a
great capacity for cruelty. Doesn't in some way that undermine
what they do as a whole?
While I do agree that a large part of both shows is thinking out
of the box, or the value in being unconventional or stepping away
from conformity, but I think that even deeper than that is the
reasons, motivations and the suchlike for operating outside of
a box. For instance Xander changing the nature of the prophecy,
or Buffy dying to save the world, wasn't so much about thinking
outside the box, but about operating through love. The actions
were a byproduct of the feeling, of the motivation. I doubt if
Xander could have cared less about an ancient prophecy at that
moment, he just did the only thing he could, or would have wanted
- to save someone he loved. The same with Buffy - it wasn't so
much about the larger things, they were a byproduct of the localised
personal feelings those characters had.
I would also query how far Buffy killing Angel was out of the
box. It was the only thing she could do. It also led her to abandon
her role as Slayer - because it went against the grain of what
she wanted to do, to be. She didn't want a life in which the actions
she had to do involved killing those she loved. There was no victory
in that action - and I think it's that feeling that led to the
events of The Gift, and to an extent Chosen.
It seems that a recurrent theme in both shows is the strength
that comes from connecting with one another, from loving and caring
for others, whoever they may be. And my point is that the further
you get away from that, the harder it is to succeed in the bigger
things, because it becomes harder to remember what exactly the
point of it all is. It almost gets into the argument of whether
the ends always justifies the means. From Angel Season 2, Buffy
Season 7 and Angel Season 6, when the characters seem to operate
on that basis, they do themselves and others serious harm.
[> [> [> [> [> Balance and connection..
-- Jane, 14:19:21 05/02/04 Sun
are important themes in both shows, I think, as is demonstrated
in your posts here. I agree that it does seem to be a combination
of the characters' connections to those around them and their
roles as heroes that keeps both Buffy and Angel grounded and able
to do the right thing. When they isolate themselves from their
connections, they lose the balance. Without both, staying on the
right path and being able to see their way clearly becomes very
difficult. They are most effective when they have those connections
to family and friends. I think that the lesson Buffy learned in
season 7, Angel still has to learn. Hopefully, there's time for
him to do so in the remaining few episodes!
Very interesting posts. Thanks to you both.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm thinking this is the
easy way out though -- Lunasea, 15:47:47 05/02/04 Sun
When they isolate themselves from their connections, they lose
the balance.
It is easy to say friends are important and that we should work
to maintain those connections. The story becomes repetative and
I'm wondering if maybe they are going in a new direction. Can
they maintain balance without those connections? Can we maintain
our integrity in the belly of the beast?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But if you believe
something, can you let go even if it may be repetitive? --
Bjerkley, 16:36:15 05/02/04 Sun
And what if the answer is no? That they cannot maintain their
balance without these connections? Given the fallout of Fred's
death, in which the gang were focused on their goal in a way we
haven't seen in a long time, I would argue that the connection,
even in the belly of the beast is all. If you care about someone,
that's what's important. And if you can't care about those around
you, what's to say you can care about those further afield, those
you've chosen to save?
Repetitive it may be in theme, but if the story is rich and worthwhile,
I think the theme can be told a thousand times.
I would also say that this idea of the importance of connection
isn't necessarily at odds with exploring how to keep your integrity
in the belly of the beast. In fact, I would argue that is the
very answer.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Beliefs change
as we grow -- Lunasea, 16:38:54 05/04/04 Tue
That is part of growing up. What happens when someone can't maintain
those connections for reasons beyond his control? That is the
situation Angel is in now. Wesley is nuts. Fred is dead. The Scoobies
have shut Angel out. Connor is living another life. Cordy is dead.
Spike is still an ass. Gunn doesn't understand what Angel is doing.
What do you do when you don't have that connection? What do you
do when the more you live in this world, the more you see how
apart from it you really are?
It is easy to sing all you need is love or I get by with a little
help from my friends. What happens when you take away everything?
What is left? Is that enough to get us through the darkness?
Buffy did it. She felt completely alone after she sent Angel to
hell. It was helping a relative stranger that brought her back.
Angel felt disconnected this season because he wasn't getting
the one on one he was used to with the helpless. Does that mean
he should give up the power he has and go back to that?
Connection is important, but ultimately what we have to connect
with and get our strength from is "me." After social
needs/love and acceptance comes self-esteem. That is where Angel
is at now. Saving souls helped get him this far. Now he has to
keep going. He can't rely on connection. Even the Scoobies turned
on Buffy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm thinking
this is the easy way out though -- Jane, 17:33:09 05/02/04
Sun
I think what I'm trying to say about balance and connection is
that they are important components of the whole. Yin and Yang
making up the circle. If all connections are stripped away, what
does a person have left? Buffy knew the answer: "Me."
Perhaps that knowledge can keep her balanced, but without the
other connections to her life, she feels empty. The connecting
with others feeds her inner core, gives her so much strength she
can in turn give it back to the world. I'm not sure how this relates
to Angel's predicament, but I have the feeling that he has finally
come to the same point Buffy was at when she grabbed the sword
and found her balance. Not sure if this makes any sense, but I
think balance/connection is like a dance; sometimes one leads,
sometimes the other does,to produce the pattern of the whole dance.
Sorry if this is a little muddled-just coming off night shift,
and my brain is caffeine deprived.
[> [> [> [> [> Again, I am rather reluctant
-- Lunasea, 15:37:03 05/02/04 Sun
for the mistakes they make, because the mistakes are what makes
the story. I agree that past seasons seem to be about the importance
of connection and family and such. I also know the show doesn't
take extreme positions on anything. Is Angel making a mistake
by focusing on the Apocalypse? That is a fair assumption given
the past of the show. I'm not so sure though. I can see this being
a corrective measure. He got into Wolfram and Hart because of
the love of a single person. The big picture wasn't enough to
entice him. Angel saved the world last season for a single person,
"for the boy."
Angel's life has been this push-pull between friends-big picture.
He is a pendulum constanly in motion. Goes too far one way and
he gets pulled back in the opposite direction. That is the story.
I'm starting to wonder if there is a way out of this dynamic.
Are human beings doomed to constantly be swinging from one side
to another? Can East meet West?
It's like those human rights saviours or people doing good
works being tyrants in the home, or having a great capacity for
cruelty. Doesn't in some way that undermine what they do as a
whole?
It in many ways makes them human. Does this undermine what they
do? It is up to each individual to decide. I know people that
would dismiss the words or actions of someone because s/he can't
maintain consistency. Since the person can't maintain consistency
in all facets of life, s/he mustn't believe what s/he is saying/doing.
Does Buffy not believe because she was bad or because she ran
away or any other times she showed that she wasn't perfect? Is
what Buffy said or did somehow invalidated by this?
I think that even deeper than that is the reasons, motivations
and the suchlike for operating outside of a box.
But that is part of the box itself, what motivations we are allowed
to act on. Whenever I think of the damage the Patriarchy has done,
I think of one line, "I've got a theory, that it's a demon,
a dancing demon! No, something isn't right there." Fun thing
about that, it was a demon, a dancing demon. The Patriarchy hurts
our heart and it is Xander and Angel's love that will save Buffy
season 1. There is another part to that though. The prophecy itself
didn't NEED to be fulfilled. It was what put Buffy in danger.
All she had to do was think outside the box and not go to face
the Master and there would have been no problem. It was thinking
inside the box that put her in danger.
That is what happens ever season. Lindsey to Angel "Don't
let them make you play their game...you gotta make them play yours."
There is still this dichotomy of yours and mine, big and small,
duty and love. All the problems of the season are set up because
of some dichotomy. It is solved not when one side, be it mine,
small or love, wins, but when the dichotomy is dealt with and
for a brief moment, balance is achieved. That balance tends to
be short lived, because we are imperfect human beings and momentum
keeps the pendulum swinging.
I would also query how far Buffy killing Angel was out of the
box
Because it was Angel and not Angelus. Season 1, the world would
have been safe if Buffy never faced the Master. However, Buffy
wouldn't have come back stronger. Season 2, it didn't matter that
Willow resouled Angel, when it came to saving the world. Buffy
was going to send him to hell. World saveage accomplished. However,
if Buffy had killed Angelus, he wouldn't have been sent to hell
with a kiss. She wouldn't have dealt with all her feelings around
him, unsouling him and later sending him to hell. Buffy might
not have run away, but she would have turned into Wish!Buffy.
Season 2, it was Willow trying to resoul Angel that was out of
the box. In the box, vampire + Slayer = big pile of dust. Having
feelings for Angel protected her against this, so we don't get
Wish!Buffy. There are many decisive moments in the show. Not knowing
Angel was a vampire was key to what happens in "Angel"
which is important to both heroes. Knowing Angel is a vampire
right off the bat in the Wishverse results in both their deaths.
There was no victory in that action
I don't agree with this. Seaosn 1, Xander as heart brought Buffy
back to life. Season 2, Willow as spirit kept Buffy's heart alive.
This caused her to run away and go to hell herself, but that's
the hero's journey. Buffy had things she had to work on beginning
of Season 3. Without Willow's spell, she wouldn't have. Instead,
she was shutting herself down, steeling herself up to kill Angelus.
She was the Law. Having intense feelings about something that
she can't ignore, even if she runs away, keeps her humanity alive.
None of this would have happened if Willow hadn't resouled Angel.
I see it as a victory.
It seems that a recurrent theme in both shows is the strength
that comes from connecting with one another, from loving and caring
for others, whoever they may be.
But we have a different situation on Angel. Angel proved he loved
Connor, not by dying for him, but by giving him up. This severed
his connection with his son. Last season, Cordy was up in the
higher realms. The season before that Buffy died. Angel's life
isn't just connecting with others, but dealing with loss. There
has to be another way to be strong.
"Why do we fight?" That is the question that AtS asks.
When our best friend betrays us and our son is gone, why do we
fight? When as the bug priest says, "a world that doesn't
care for you, doesn't want you" why do we fight? When the
PTB's allow one of their own to hijack a woman that you love,
why do we fight? When evil is clearly winning, why do we fight.
Buffy shows how the connection helps her fight. Angel has to fight
without that connection. He has to find other sources of strength.
And my point is that the further you get away from that, the
harder it is to succeed in the bigger things, because it becomes
harder to remember what exactly the point of it all is.
But as I told someonr else, just because it becomes harder, doesn't
mean that it shouldn't be done. That is why AtS is a more of a
grown up show. Buffy gets the luxury of connecting with others
and being reminded about this. Angel doesn't. Things become harder
and harder for him and because he is a hero, he still has to remember
why we fight.
That to me is Angel. Angel has to remember as he gets further
and further from the reason. This doesn't mean that he should
return to the source, but that he needs to remember what the source
is. In the Hell of Suburbia, he can't forget.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Again, I am rather
reluctant -- Bjerkley, 16:29:24 05/02/04 Sun
Since the person can't maintain consistency in all facets of
life, s/he mustn't believe what s/he is saying/doing. Does Buffy
not believe because she was bad or because she ran away or any
other times she showed that she wasn't perfect? Is what Buffy
said or did somehow invalidated by this?
But I'm not talking about human flaws or human weakness. That's
to be expected. No one is free of that. But to pass off acts of
cruelty as understandable flaws does everyone a disservice. Consider
the example of a country that assumes a right to hold itself up
as a beacon of democracy and human rights, and acting on that
basis. Wouldn't the fact that they then denied human rights to
their own people, or others, or did bad things undermine what
they were doing? How can we have faith in their input into the
big picture when they can't be trusted with the smaller things?
And I didn't mean to get political there, but I thought it was
an instructive analogy.
And I completely disagree with what you say about the fact that
Buffy sent Angel, and not Angelus to hell. I would argue that
she could have far easily dealt with killing Angelus than what
actually happened - by Becoming she had finally got through her
love for Angel, her reluctance to kill Angelus because of who
he had been. She was ready to kill him. And yet she killed Angel
instead. I think this affected her deeply. I very much doubt she
would have run off if he had remained Angelus towards the end.
I also think that killing Angel was something that changed her
character for good, it went some way to closing herself off from
the world, a trend that was completed when Angel left her a second
time the following year. I think that the fact she was forced
to kill Angel was something that damaged her, and that it took
until season 7 to really overcome. She closed herself off as a
person, she didn't want that hurt again, and she suffered because
of that. If it was outside of the box, it made things a whole
lot more difficult for her.
She was the Law. Having intense feelings about something that
she can't ignore, even if she runs away, keeps her humanity alive
I don't think that killing Angelus would have shut down her feelings
or her humanity. It wouldn't have been as painful, and I think
this pain, and the fear of going back there lead her to shut down.
Maybe it would have been okay if Angel hadn't of returned, but
the fact that she had to kill him, as well as the fact that he
left her, affected her humanity far more than having to kill Angelus
would have.
That is why AtS is a more of a grown up show. Buffy gets the
luxury of connecting with others and being reminded about this.
Angel doesn't. Things become harder and harder for him and because
he is a hero, he still has to remember why we fight.
And again I completely disagree (although I want to say you make
very good points throughout). I don't think connection is a luxury
at all. If it was, Buffy and Angel wouldn't have run so far from
doing so. To a large extent Angel doesn't connect because he doesn't
want to, because he feels he doesn't deserve it. That he has to
deny any evidence that he may be connected to the everday world.
Does that make him a hero? No, I don't think so. His heroic status
comes from the good he does, not from what he denies himself.
Doyle said it best in City of...."Itís not all
about fighting and gadgets and stuff. Itís about reaching
out to people, showing them that thereís love and hope
still left in the world....Itís about letting them into
your heart. Itís not about saving lives; itís about
saving souls. Hey, possibly your own in the process."
If Angel can't connect to that source, why would it be important,
why would he remember it? If he doesn't connect to people, how
far will he get before he starts to forget why it's even important
to save these souls?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Again, I am rather
reluctant -- Lunasea, 17:00:27 05/04/04 Tue
And I completely disagree with what you say about the fact
that Buffy sent Angel, and not Angelus to hell. I would argue
that she could have far easily dealt with killing Angelus than
what actually happened - by Becoming she had finally got through
her love for Angel, her reluctance to kill Angelus because of
who he had been.
If that was the case, she wouldn't have broken down after she
killed him. She hadn't gotten over anything. Instead she shut
herself down. She would have continued to do this, if she had
killed Angelus. By bringing back Angel, Willow made Buffy deal
with her feelings. She would have had an easier time with killing
Angelus. She also never would have really dealt with her feelings
about Angel. That is why we get Wish!Buffy. If Buffy had been
traditional Slayer, she would have been cold and died early because
she didn't deal with her feelings, which she tells Kendra gives
her strength. The Spirit Guide seconds this in "Intervention."
In Becoming, Buffy lost the man she loved and gained back her
heart. Killing Angelus wouldn't have shut down her feelings, Buffy
had already done that by Becoming. Bringing back Angel restored
her feelings.
To a large extent Angel doesn't connect because he doesn't
want to, because he feels he doesn't deserve it.
That was earlier. He's gotten much better since then. Now it is
more circumstances than anything. He didn't lose Connor because
he didn't connect. He lost Connor because he was betrayed by Wesley
and his son was tortured in a Hell dimension. He didn't lose Cordy
because he felt he didn't deserve it. He lost Cordy because Jasmine
decided that Cordy looked like a nice body to have. Those are
completely beyond his control.
Angel reached out to Wesley last season and Gunn this season in
some of the show's most beautiful moments. In "Smile Time"
it wasn't about whether he deserved to connect. It was about whether
he could. He felt completely dysfunctional "I'm not that
guy." At the end, he does ask Nina out, as puppet no less.
If Angel can't connect to that source, why would it be important,
why would he remember it? If he doesn't connect to people, how
far will he get before he starts to forget why it's even important
to save these souls?
It's a balance game. The show has repeatedly put forth connection
as the reason to fight. It has talked about the importance of
the small picture over the big picture and even said that there
was no big picture. Now comes the pendulum swing in the opposite
direction as gravity pulls it back to the center.
Why would Angel remember it? Because he is a hero and it is in
his heart. He doesn't want people to suffer. He figured this out
when he was completely disconnected from everything. It didn't
take connection to do that. It took surrendering. When he did
that, he found what was there in his heart. Then he had the strength
to go back and reconnect.
Sometimes connecting with others isn't strengthening, but draining.
We need all sorts of sources of strength. Connection is just one
side of the equation. We have to be part of it as well. Without
it, there is no strength when circumstances make connection impossible.
[> Joss's moral/political trap -- KdS, 13:13:29 04/30/04
Fri
Dlgood has been posting about the pessimism of ME in his livejournal,
so I've already been thinking about this stuff. And I think that
the pessimism of BtVS and AtS comes from an essential bind that
Joss has got himself into between his gut moral feelings and his
established universe.
It's not just a case of increasing isolation. There's a pattern
in both BtVS and AtS where the characters actually reach a maximum
level of equilibrium and functionality in themselves, and together
as a group, at a certain point, and then spiral down into depression
and anomie. In BtVS the point of maximal happiness is roughly
the first third of S5, prior to Joyce's illness, before Buffy
collapses in the latter two thirds of S5 and everyone else does
in S6. In AtS it's probably the first half of S3, before the growing
attraction between Gunn and Fred starts splitting the group and
Wes makes his disastrous betrayal. In the case of BtVS, it got
to the point that a lot of fans simply couldn't buy the attempts
at optimism at the end of S6 and again at the end of S7, so bleak
had been the majority of the material. In the case of AtS, I sincerely
doubt that this season is going to end up with any kind of Norman
Rockwell ending, short of some total retcon.
I think that the problem is that Joss is essentially a liberal
pacifist who believes that fighting is a bad thing which can only
have a corrosive effect on those involved, even if it's entirely
necessary. Unfortunately, he set up a worldview on BtVS where
demons represent inner psychological demons and the problems of
the world, so there can be no clear end to the fight, which he
reifies in the series as total and bloody warfare. So his characters
are trapped in an eternal violent struggle, which he believes
can only have a destructive effect on them.
The ironic thing is that AtS1-3 actually adopted a more optimistic
worldview where demons weren't necessarily a symbol of everything
that was bad in life, and became rational beings in their own
right that didn't necessarily have to be fixed symbols of everything.
(And the high point of the AtS characters' functionality in mid-AtS3
actually coincided with the high point of demons as people in
their own right.) But that set of ideas in AtS caused too much
of a moral problem when fans started applying it to BtVS and arguing
that the Scoobies were murderous speciesists, and when Greenwalt
left and Joss took over more control in AtS4-5, he gradually shifted
the attitude in AtS back to demons as symbols of evil. (Unless
the last three eps contradict this theory in a big way, I'll do
an essay justifying this reading after 5:22.)
So this is the problem. Joss believes that warfare is a bad thing
and can only destroy people unless they move to make peace. But
the metaphorical structure of the shows insists that there is
no chance to make peace. So the characters are doomed to be consumed
by the struggle so that humanity in general can live in peace.
[> [> Good points. Excellent. -- Masq, 13:30:59
04/30/04 Fri
I made the board for posts like this!
clap, clap, clap
Actually, I made the board because certain email correspondants
were twisting my arms. But this is one of those meta-analyses
the board thrives on.
[> [> Good points, re: the Cognitive Dissonance --
Dlgood, 15:46:34 04/30/04 Fri
Mostly, I've been commenting on that in other LJ's. But, here,
I think you crystalize the problem far better than I have to this
point.
[> [> That's interesting -- Bjerkley, 14:47:36
05/01/04 Sat
And nice points about the shift in how demons are portrayed on
Angel. That's something I hadn't particularly noticed (although
someone more intelligent than me will be able to explain the significance
behind the decreasing focus on helping the helpless and victims
in general on AtS).
That said, I'm not altogether sure that the underlying point is
about the corrosiveness of fighting, or the impossibility of ever
being able to stop fighting. Reading your post, and thinking back
to the last few seasons of Buffy, what really strikes me is not
so much the demon as being the enemy, but the increasing focus
was on the damage they could do to themselves. With a few exceptions,
season six was entirely focused on human evil and flaws. And while
that changed in season seven, the enemy was generally the cause
of the evil inside everyone, who more often than not took on human
form, and even more so, the human form of the main characters,
indeed the lead character.
So I'm not altogether sure that the characters were engaged in
a battle to ensure the human race lived in peace which necessarily
left them broken and damaged. I think it's slightly more complicated
than that.
Some time last year Marti Noxon said in an interview about what
Joss worldview was. Can't remember exactly, but something along
the lines of how hard and tough the world can be, but what's important
is the struggle to give it meaning, the way we relate to each
other and so on. Which is borne out by this comment of Joss':
It made me realize, at that moment, that every time somebody
opens their mouth they have an opportunity to do one of two things
ñ connect or divide. Some people inherently divide, and
some people inherently connect. Connecting is the most important
thing, and actually an easy thing to do.
I actually think the key to the entire worldview of Joss is in
the speech that Joss makes to Connor in Deep Down. Nothing
in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel.
- But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make
a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be,
to show it what it can be
So, the way I see it, the terrible things that befall the characters,
and the terrible things that they do, is important because at
the same time they still manage to find moments of grace and love
- which would perhaps mean less without the experiences they have
suffered. Unfortunately, I think that because of the quite often
bleak tone to the shows, few people believe that the moments of
grace or happiness can mean anything. Which is perhaps why Chosen
is a happy ending, but rarely seen that way.
[> [> [> Re: That's interesting -- CTH, 17:41:42
05/01/04 Sat
Never post here but just wanted to say that I have always shared
the viewpoint you write f when it comes to these shows.
The shows can be said to have a bleak worldview (there is never
going to a final decesive victory in either show) but I have never
found the shows bleak because of the warmth & humor of the characters
that occupy them as well as the essential belief in human kindness.
I would say the point of view you mention above is most purely
seen in Firefly, more than BTVS & Angel.
And I certainly don't view it as a trap.
[> [> [> [> Re: That's interesting -- RJA,
11:51:02 05/02/04 Sun
I agree with what you say.
Never seen Firefly, although keep meaning to. Is it really as
good as they say then? Probably worth hunting out the DVDs.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's interesting --
CTH, 11:02:44 05/03/04 Mon
Well worth it, and it is as good as they say.
I was watching The West Wing this weekend, and thought of Whedon's
confessed admiration for Aaron Sorkin (believe Whedon said that
he wanted to eat his brain). In a lovely moment during an episode
centered on the President's inaguration, Bartlet states (to paraphrase,
and probably broadly) that all that has ever changed the world
is a dedicated group of people with a belief that they can. In
essence, this is how I think of our heroes on Ats & BTVS. They
struggle within & aganist themselves to find a way to make there
world a better place to live in. Is this battle corresive? No.
Is it difficult? Certainly. The Scoobies we see at the end of
Chosen are the most mature, responsible, & adult we have ever
seen them. Free of the burden of the Hellmouth but accepting of
an even more difficult burden ahead, the remaining Scobbies (as
we have seen on Angel) continue to work together to make there
world a better place. The shows are far too smart to ever assume
that there will be peace in the world, but there can be be hope.
I believe we will see Angel's Avengers end in much the same place
as the Scoobies, with the struggle continuing but ready to fight
on.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That's interesting
-- Tyreseus, 16:01:07 05/03/04 Mon
Hmm. Not sure if I remember the West Wing episode you're referring
to, but could it be a quote or paraphrase of:
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, itís the
only thing that ever has.î
óMargaret Mead (1901-1978)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That's interesting
-- CTH, 17:03:08 05/03/04 Mon
That's it. Pres. Bartlet (keeping the fantasy) says it to Will
Bailey as he offers him the Deputy job.
Way OT but I was pleasantly surprised by how strong the 4th seaon
of The West Wing was. Not as strong as the first two seasons (the
bloom is off the rose by this point) but still very entertaining.
[> [> [> [> [> It's better than they say!
-- Vickie, 11:46:28 05/03/04 Mon
No really, much better than they (we) say. Honest!
Seriously, Firefly is a flawed but wonderful show that could have
done a lot had it been given a chance. Borrow/rent the DVDs and
give it a chance. At least check out Serenity (the 2
hour pilot that the network aired LAST). Or visit the Firefly
board (link at the top of the page) for reviews and commentary
by folks much more erudite than I. (WARNING: spoilers on that
board, though they are marked.)
I have been rewatching the Firefly DVDs lately, and am surprised
at how well they hold my attention, considering how recently I
have seen them and how little (only 12 episodes) of the show there
is. Three-dimensional characters, depth of social and historical
background, thematic and metaphorical development in visual storytelling,
it's all there (if embryonic at some points).
Of course, there are things that are just silly, like the bar
that has some kind of holographic version of a window instead
of just glass because in a technologically disadvantaged backwater
it's easier than, er, I mean...
I guess it was just cool.
Firefly has humor. It has space ships, and horses, and swearing
in Chinese. It also has some pretty amazing relationships, for
a show with such a short run:
- A married couple who love and argue and struggle to maintain
their relationship while working together.
- A brother and sister who are devoted and caring, while at
the same time teasing and annoying to one another
- A young man and womand from very different economic strata,
groping their way towards a friendship and possible romance.
Please do give Firefly a try.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I second. -- mrsubjunctive,
05:16:13 05/04/04 Tue
I actually -- heresy to admit it here, I suppose, but -- I actually
like "Firefly," limited and embryonic though it is,
better than I like "Buffy" or "Angel."
Haven't been able to get anyone else to agree with me so far,
so caveat emptor, but "Firefly" gave me most of the
good days I had last January, which was otherwise a pretty crappy
month.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's better than they
say! -- Rob, 11:38:15 05/04/04 Tue
like the bar that has some kind of holographic version of a
window instead of just glass because in a technologically disadvantaged
backwater
I kind of thought the joke there was that the glass had been broken
so often, in so many similar barroom brawls that they finally
considered it more cost effective rather than installing a new
window every week or so to just get some money together and buy
a holograph window (probably from an illegal source).
Rob
[> [> Re: Joss's moral/political trap -- Masquerade,
16:35:04 05/01/04 Sat
KdS - I've recommended this to be added to the Existential Scoobies
essays page. I'd add it to my site, but it's kind of meta
; )
I don't get it (spoilers 5.19 "Time Bomb")
-- buffyguy, 19:46:16 04/29/04 Thu
I don't understand why angel let the fell brethren take the baby.
After Lindsey's speech about not going along with how the world
works and fighting for change, one would assume that Angel would
have just as quickly sliced off all 3 demons' heads right then
and there. I thought he would revert to Season1 Angel and be a
vigilante. Why did he just let them take the baby when he knew
it would be sacrificed at 13 years of age? I loved the entire
episode and then when i saw the end I couldnt put it all together.
It was like something was out of focus and i couldnt figure out
how that ending goes with the episode. HELP!
Replies:
[> My personal opinion is that it was a trick -- Finn
Mac Cool, 20:05:41 04/29/04 Thu
That Angel's trying to fool the Senior Partners as part of a plan
he's cooking up. It is possible that what Illyria said convinced
him, what with the whole "a ruler must not be moral"
thing. But she also talked about serving your own ambitions, which
would seem to support a decision to rebel against the higher ups
at Wolfram & Hart. Of course, since Illyria's a power mad demon,
in both cases he may have listened to what she said and done the
opposite, reasoning that whatever Illyria's against must be right.
In any case, at this point, I don't think anyone knows for sure.
[> [> Re: My personal opinion is that it was a trick
-- Metron, 20:24:51 04/29/04 Thu
I was thinking that he let them take the baby because the child
won't be sacrificed for 13 years and is going to be well cared
for initially. They'll be time to fix this issue later.
That's what I think though. I'm prolly wrong. :)
[> [> If it was a trick, in the mean time... -- Nino,
22:25:48 04/29/04 Thu
...Angel just knowingly allowed a child to be sold to its death....which,
as tricks go, isn't one.
[> [> [> Re: If it was a trick, in the mean time...
-- Alistair, 07:22:23 04/30/04 Fri
Illyria said something which Angel expertienced before. While
preparing for the coming fight with Darla and Drusilla, Angel
let go of all the things which held him to the human world, and
took on a dark attitude, of getting it done. Now, he may be doing
the same, serving no master but his own ambition, and in order
to get it done (stop the SP), he needs to make certain choices,
take certain paths, which the champion of the powers would never
do. Angel is playing their game, to get them to play his.
[> [> [> [> Right, but.. -- Nino, 07:29:37
04/30/04 Fri
This seems to be the attitude he had at the beginning of the season...playing
their game will lead to a greater good...but Lindsey pretty clearly
stated, that playing their game is the same as giving up, letting
evil happen. So even if Angel's decision was a "trick"
it was a very bad one, because, whether he realizes it or not
he is embracing the way of things at W&H...he is exactly where
they've wanted him all year...even if he thinks he has the upper
hand the very fact that he would let a child be sold to death
shows he is not thinking in a Champion mindset. No matter what
his reason for doing it, allowing the child to die is a compromise
just like the ones he has been complaining about all season.
[> [> [> [> [> Since when is Lindsey a Higher
Power? -- Lunasea, 18:41:48 05/04/04 Tue
Half-truths are wonderful. Only characters I trust on the show
for actually saying how things are are the Conduits to the PTBs.
Oracles, yes. Spirit Guides, yes. Whistler/Doyle/Cordy under certain
conditions (similar to the Pope speaking ex cathedra),
yes. Anyone else, questionable. Deep truths are wrapped up in
the speakers own issues and speak to those issues as much as they
do the truth. Best example of this is anything Spike says. Lindsey
is in the same position. Nothing he says is handed down from on
high. It is colored by his experiences which inform him. There
is truth there, but it has to be sifted.
Lindsey says playing their game is tantamount to giving up. Doesn't
make it so. Lindsey is focused on the stepper/stepped on dynamic.
He doesn't see anything else. He tried to play the system and
failed. There is a difference between Lindsey and Angel. Angel
is "bigger than all this." Lindsey isn't. Lindsey isn't
the hero. He is the foil.
I think Angel is playing into their hands, but because he won't
just learn to accept the world the way it is. The way the world
is will eat at him until he explodes like he did season 2. That
is what the SP want.
There is one thing that isn't being factored into this discussion.
Angel didn't sell the child. The mother did. She is doing so with
informed consent. She is choosing the father over the child. The
mother has to sign the contract. Angel didn't force her to.
It was a wonderful revisit of "Judgment," "Home,"
and "Conviction." In a world where a mother will sell
her child like that, how can Angel fight? In "Judgment"
the mother wanted to protect her child. This is an interesting
scenario.The world is harsh and cruel and forces the mother to
make a choice between her husband and her unborn child. It is
the world that sets up this scenario. How does Angel fight that?
He can give this woman back her husband using Wolfram and Hart's
science department, maybe. What about the next one and the next
one and the next one?
My concern isn't the life of this child, but what will the demons
be able to do because of this child. What will this motivate them
to do? Angel still isn't quite looking at the big picture. I don't
think he did with Illyria. Letting Fred die not only resulted
in Fred's death, but Illyria being freed. If her army wasn't destroyed
by time, how many would have died? It is hard to sentence thousands
to die, but what about when the price is millions, if not billions?
yucky questions. Glad I don't have to answer them. My big picture
isn't quite so big.
[> [> [> Angel have 13 years to straighten that out
-- luthistle1, 12:11:43 04/30/04 Fri
...but for now he must deal with today. The child's life will
not be in danger, until he/she reaches the age of 13. so, by that
time, if Angel still wants to play the hero, he can . he has 13
years to save him. but I would like to point out that the choice
wasn't Angel in the first place. Amanda is the one who decided
to have the baby for the demon cult. That was her decision. she
knew that it was a "demon cult", that it was a possible
chance that they might be evil. she did not bother to ask what
they wanted the baby for, or why they needed it. all that was
decided by her, not Angel. all Angel did was told her to honor
her agreement. If you think about, it not a bad idea, considering
(1)she 's poor, and have to deal with a brain dead husband, she
really can not afford the baby anyway. Second - she has been feeding
the baby, thing that the demon cult gave her, therefore she can
not be sure how that would affect the baby...hell it might even
make the child evil, or demon.
third- The demon cult promise to restore her husband to his normal
state. if they can do that, than they probably can also do the
opposite. so giving the baby up, is actually for the best.
[> [> [> [> Compromise is what caused WW2 --
Charles Phipps, 06:44:49
05/05/04 Wed
In the end you have to draw a line in the sand since Wolfram and
Hart like all evil doesn't compromise. It simply TAKES and when
you're done giving, it takes some more.
[> [> [> [> [> Compromise also turned colonies
into states and a nation. -- Lunasea, 06:52:17 05/05/04
Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> I believe you mean REVOLUTION
-- Charles Phipps,
13:59:50 05/05/04 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> No I mean COMPROMISE
-- Lunasea, 14:25:17 05/05/04 Wed
The United States of America faced her first compromises in the
writing of the Declaration of Independence. She never would have
been UNITED anything if people weren't willing to put that union
ahead of other concerns. Compromise has kept this country together
for over 200 years. The diversity that gives this country such
strength also requires compromises, lots of them. I wouldn't say
all of these have been slanted on the side of morality. That fire
bell in the night went off eventually.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Compromise,
revolution.... -- LittleBit, 16:24:45 05/05/04 Wed
Before this gets into a semantic discussion, let's just consider
that all of these actions can be viewed from different perspectives.
Compromise did indeed allow the Declaration of Independence to
be ratified, but at the same time compromise ensured that slavery
continued for another century. Revolution was the impetus for
the Declaration to be drafted, compromise was what put the resources
of the colonies behind the revolution.
[> Re: I don't get it (spoilers 5.19 "Time Bomb")
-- Rufus, 23:26:07 04/29/04 Thu
Don't you worry...soon enough it will all make sense.
[> [> Re: I don't get it (spoilers 5.19 "Time Bomb")
-- Jane, 17:22:35 04/30/04 Fri
Argh!!! Rufus, you have no idea how hard this is making it to
stay unspoiled..you tempter,you. ;-)
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