April 2004 posts
Sophomoric
(spoilers for Origins) -- Cactus Watcher, 05:19:55 04/22/04
Thu
My favorite thing about this episode is the faithful continuation
of Wesley's character. The man should be known as the Great Sophomore
in the literal sense of ìsmart fool.' In terms of role
playing games, Wes has high intelligence, but low wisdom. His
loyalty factor is always in question, as well. Wes always means
well, but one way or another he always gets isolated from those
he works with most closely. He ceases to trust them and 'wackiness
ensues.' This time it was his fixation on Fred/Illyria that's
taken him out of the loop. It's interesting that Illyria specifically
mentions that Connor is physically attracted to her, as if Wes
by contrast is not. It would seem Wes' fixation is based on something
else, something more cerebral and less connected to the reality
in front of him. This time it appears that Wesley's lack of trust
has only hurt himself. Connor seems content with his new life.
Angel has long since resigned himself to letting Connor live that
life. In fact, I think, it's supposed to be ambiguous whether
Connor actually knows about his old life; whether he was close
enough when the box broke; whether it was really memory or visceral
instinct that ended the fight. For now it makes little difference.
Wes on the other hand has to deal yet again with the fact of his
disloyalty and lack of wisdom in making decisions for himself.
His insistence on dealing with Illyria alone was a bad idea, and
now she's comfortable with him. Not many episodes left, but lots
of possiblilities for Wes ahead.
Replies:
[> Old One's Great Debate -- CW, 10:21:40 04/22/04
Thu
Spilling over from elsewhere.
Did anyone except Masq and I see, that it's possible Connor did
not get his memory back?
[> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate (spoilers "Origins"
-- Tyreseus, 10:46:24 04/22/04 Thu
Well, I can see how Drew Goddard wrote it where there's the possibility
that the memories did not come back. If I had nothing but the
script to make my call by, I could be confused or left in the
dark. But I think it was clear from the acting (VK and DB) and
direction that the memories returned. The little dodge of eye
movements during final exchange, the final glance filled with
secret understanding... Nor can I understand Connor's eagerness
to leave "right now" if he doesn't know that there's
enough emotional baggage to fill up the Pacific between himself
and Angel.
I suppose I can't rule out the possibility that he did not get
his memories back, but I'd say that the directing and acting lead
me to be 90% sure he did.
Ty
[> [> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate (spoilers "Origins"
-- Ann, 11:04:57 04/22/04 Thu
"But I think it was clear from the acting (VK and DB) and
direction that the memories returned. The little dodge of eye
movements during final exchange, the final glance filled with
secret understanding."
Yes, exactly I think. When Connor gets his memories back, his
face changes immediately. I thought of a vamp out. Like father,
like son. It was so well done, especially after the great show
of "happy" Connor. The contrast was beautiful. The final
movements, almost music like, were a true love between father
and son. I remember the walk out of the office in slow motion.
Did it really happen that way?
The montage of memories was a great flashback to the early seasons
where they intercut location changes with those fast montages.
I have only seen one listing so far of all of the scenes montaged,
and they are the most brutal, sexual, and the highest and lowest
points in the series. Everything a young boy would need to know
to make the decision he eventually did.
[> [> [> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate (spoilers
"Origins" -- CW, 15:04:46 04/22/04 Thu
Haven't watched it again, but I'm pretty sure the montage was
Wesley's memories.
I agree that most likely Connor did get his memories back. But
everything in the acting and the dialog was done so carefully,
that I think we should keep open the possibility that his memories
were not returned. Old One was joking last night, but it is true
that Connor with his old memories might, in fact, still not consider
Angel his father as much as Holtz, which would make that last
scene a lot less poignant. If in the last scene Connor is talking
about either Angel or about his new 'adoptive' father he's still
proven that Angel made the right choice at the end of last season,
at least as far as Connor's life is concerned.
What happens next week is always another story. ;o)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate (spoilers
"Origins" -- Rook, 17:26:44 04/22/04 Thu
>>Haven't watched it again, but I'm pretty sure the montage
>>was Wesley's memories
One of the shots in the montage was of Holtz jumping into the
portal with baby Connor. Of the people present when the box smashed,
only Sahjan, Angel and Connor were also present during the portal
jump scene. Since Angel and Sahjan were unaffected by the memory
wipe, it would have to be baby Connor's memories that were being
shown.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate
(spoilers "Origins" -- Jay, 17:42:32 04/22/04
Thu
I think the montage belonged to the collective memories of all
four present who had memories to restore -- Wesley, Connor, Fred's
memories in Illyria, and Sahjahn's memories of infant Connor.
That, or it was just for the benefit of the audience.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate
(spoilers "Origins" -- CW, 18:03:14 04/22/04
Thu
It's certainly evidence. But how else could you show Wesley's
knowledge of what happened, even though we know he wasn't there?
It's certainly an important piece of his memory. I remember no
shots of Connor's relationship with Cordy, nor his confrontations
with Angel (There could have been some in the rapid flashes at
the end of the montage), which would not only be Connor specific,
but occurred when Connor was old enought to remember them, and
when Wesley was in exile.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Old One's Great
Debate (spoilers "Origins" -- Rook, 02:34:15
04/23/04 Fri
>> I remember no shots of Connor's relationship with Cordy,
nor his confrontations with Angel
They did show the shot of Connor returning to the Hyperion through
the portal - An event at which Wes was not persent, but since
Fred was, it could have been her memory resurfacing in Illyria.
They also showed the shot of Coonor sealing Angel into the box
before dumping him into the water, which further narrows it down
to being either Connor or Angel's memory.
So at least it seems to me that there are really 3 options for
the montage:
A) It was showing the returning S4 memories of the different characters
in the room (Illyria/Fred, Wes, Connor).
B) It was visual shorthand summing up the S4 storyline so we'd
understand Wesley's memory had returned.
C) It was an amalgamation of the memories relating to S4 of the
characters closest to the box when it was destroyed (Wes, Illyria/Fred,
Angel)
Now, to me, C) Seems kind of pointless, story-wise. Only A and
B are really necessary for the plot to move along. The fact that
there was very little (if any) Fred specific stuff (Seidel, Shooting
Jasmine, Breaking up with Gunn, Shocking Connor with the stun
gun) Does make a case against it being A (or C for that matter).
However, when coupled with the performance of VK during the fight
(Not so much the physical stuff, as the look on his face. IMO
that was pure psycho-Connor) and at the end when he's leaving
W&H, I have to go with A.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cyrus said
the box's purpose let him see the past as it once was -- Finn
Mac Cool, 08:59:38 04/23/04 Fri
Returning removed memories is only one of its functions; as such,
there's no reason it couldn't show Illyria, Wes, and Angel events
they weren't actually present for.
[> [> [> Taking the "no memories" stance
-- Finn Mac Cool, 21:00:16 04/22/04 Thu
Here's how I see it:
1) Connor got that savage look for the exact reason he said: he
doesn't like having his neck touched.
2) He didn't remember ever killing anything before, so his first
kill (especially against a talking, slightly amiable, sentient
being) could very well shake him up a little.
3) Actually, it could be Goddard's script was written entirely
with Connor not regaining his memories in mind. I imagine the
ep in script form, and I can easily see the writer imagining Connor's
closing father line to be something which means a lot to Angel
without Connor knowing it (like the "older women" line).
Remember in Season 6 when James Marsters played it as though he
wanted the chip taken out, but really he was trying to get his
soul all along? Granted, he was told to act that way, but it's
possible the director took an incentive of his own which isn't
necessarily what the story intended.
[> [> [> [> Re: Taking the "no memories"
stance -- MaeveRigan, 06:21:48 04/23/04 Fri
That's the way I see it, too. The inclusion of Connor-specific
experiences in the memory montage muddies the waters. The memory-montage
returns to Wesley's face, though, as if these memories have primarily
run through his mind.
I ran through it frame by frame this morning--almost everything
in it is Wesley's POV, with a few exceptions that seem to be exclusively
Connor's, unless they were things that Angel witnessed & told
Wes about.
So there's some ambiguity in the script, and more was added in
the filming.
[> [> Oh, gee! -- Old One, 16:42:09 04/22/04 Thu
I took a nap and almost missed the Great Debate.
I will allow that there is room for discussion. The very fact
that Vail devised a one-way wall for Connor to fight behind gives
at least the possibility that he was protected from the release
of his memories.
But VK has such subtle talent, I SAW him become the old Connor.
It took over his face. Even his joking around with Angel at the
end (about his father being pissed with Angel)was a little subdued
and strained, because he was no longer Amnesia!Connor. After the
now-famous last line, his face as he walks to the elevator is
definitely not Amnesia!Connor--it's older, more worldly-wise,
more cynical--but it's not the original Connor, either. He retains
at least the effect of his false memories, if not the memories
themselves.
;o)
[> [> [> Re: Oh, gee! -- CW, 17:47:26 04/22/04
Thu
The very thing that made me suspicious, was the moment where he
becomes Old Connor during the fight. As soon as Wesley's montage
was over I expected some reaction from Connor. To me it seemed
like a long time after (probably less than 90 seconds!) before
there was any reaction from him. Then we got the Old Connor look.
But, we have to remember there is only the Old Connor. When he
really gets pressed and mad, what is sweet-suburban Connor going
turn into? Old Connor, of course, that's who he is, memories or
no.
Because of that pause before Connor turned into Old Connor, I
kept looking for confirmation that, he had indeed regained his
memories. There was none! There was absolutely nothing to refute
that he had his memory back. That's why I mostly think he did
get it back. But, if you assume the opposite as Masq did, there
was absolutely nothing to refute that either. Which ever way you
interpreted the initial Old Connor moment you would not find your
inital impression changed. I thought the very ambiguity made the
episode that much better as it ended.
[> [> [> [> Cyvus Vail -- Old One, 18:02:56
04/22/04 Thu
I thought the very ambiguity made the episode that much better
as it ended.
With you 100% on that one.
On another topic, the name Cyvus Vail has been driving me crazy,
until I remembered there was a US politician (Secretary of State?)
named Cyrus Vance. Don't remember much about him. Any connection
there?
[> [> [> [> [> Either that or.. -- CW, 18:18:39
04/22/04 Thu
Cyvus Vail was the evil inventor of the ski resort. ;o)
Vance as I remember was a fairly important member of the Johnson
and Carter adminstrations, generally more liberal than his bosses,
but not a lunatic like Attorney General Ramsey Clark. Don't remember
any warlock connections.
[> [> [> [> [> Cyvus Vail -- AT&T's Vail
was Theodore -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 15:55:18 04/27/04
Tue
Only other Vail I can think of in history was Theodore Vail who
actually turned Bell's telephone into the world-bestriding monolith
that lasted into the 1980s.
"Theodore Vail was one of AT&T's most far-sighted presidents.
He oversaw the building of the first American coast to coast telephone
system ,and it was his dedication to basic science that initiated
a new research arm for AT&T: Bell Labs." from http://www.pbs.org/transistor/album1/addlbios/vail.html
As for Cy Vance, he was Secretary of State for Jimmy Carter; he
resigned in April, 1980 over moral issues; he disagreed with Carter's
effort to resolve the Iranian hostage crisis with a military action.
[> [> Re: Old One's Great Debate -- annonymous, 18:54:12
04/22/04 Thu
I just like to point out, for the sake of argument, that when
Vale was creating Connors memories he had a vested interest in
Connor being able to kill Sahjan later on, and that Connor made
a comment about not liking having his neck touched (like a trigger
or something perhaps)
perhaps Vale's cautious optimism about Connor bein able to kill
Sahjan without reainin his memories stemmed from having an ace
up his sleeve
even thouh when watching the episode I had no doubt that Connor
had regained his memories
[> [> [> The viewer's needs -- Tyreseus, 10:33:21
04/23/04 Fri
After reading the many arguments on both sides of the debate,
I have to concede that I can't know for a certainty whether those
memories came back or not. I assume that Drew Goddard made it
ambiguous on purpose.
For myself, when interpretting the message of the show, I like
the idea that Connor could not fulfill his destiny until he understood
and could let go of the past. It has greater symbolic interpretations
for Angel, Wes, Gunn, etc. that way. But I have to admit that
I'm doing what all of us do when we interpret literature - we
interpret the evidence and make a case that supports our understanding
of the deeper meaning.
So, where I'm not liking the idea that he did not get his
memories back is this: what is the greated symbolic importance
of that? How does perpetuating ignorance of the past allow for
true character growth? To me, that's reinforcing the cowardice
of Gunn's self imposed amnesia. I Bet Angel and Spike would like
to forget their pasts, too, but the past has a way of defining
who we are (as Wes and Illyria discuss). Maybe it's Christian
upbringing talking here, but how can we reach atonement/salvation
if we forget our sins of the past? What stops us from repeating
those past mistakes?
For me, I want and need to believe that Connor has his memories
back, and that he made a choice to be happy in his new world instead
of clinging to the old hatred of Angel. Because I want and need
that, does it automatically make it so? No. But when I watch the
episode again and again, I am given more (personally) if I believe
that Connor made his goodbyes with full knowledge of what and
who he was saying goodbye to. If this is to be Connor's last appearance
in an ME plot (which it very likely is), then that's how the character
has closure.
If Connor may come back come day (loose end: Vale!), then it might
serve the plot to have him still ignorant of his true nature and
his relationship with Angel. If Connor never does come back, I
have my closure.
[> [> [> [> You said it, buddy! -- Masq, 11:07:27
04/23/04 Fri
That sums up a lot of my feelings as well, although I think Connor
still has a hard road ahead of him if he got his memory back.
I mean think about it. Even the most well-adjusted kid is going
to be given major pause when he remembers a violent, uncertain
childhood in a hell dimension with a man who both loved and hated
him, when he remembers that he himself is part demon, the child
of two vampires who were once brutal killers, when he remembers
that he aided and abetted in the murder of an innocent girl.
Connor can smile politely at his natural-born father as he heads
out the door of W&H, but he's got a lot of brooding to do
in the future as he incorporates the very real memories of his
past with the more comforting, but actually false memories he
was given. I think he's got the emotional strength now to do it,
but it will take time.
[> [> [> [> [> Duel Memories -- Tyreseus,
15:44:52 04/23/04 Fri
You know, this idea of duel memories reminds me of one of the
early books in Stephen King's Dark Tower series. A young boy (surrogate
son to the main character) dies in the first book, but the past
is changed in the second book so that Jake has two sets of memories
- one in which he dies, and the other in which never leaves New
York and doesn't die. The dual reality memories had him questioning
his own sanity and losing his grip on reality. The difference
between Jake and Connor, though, is that the conflicting memories
for Connor are all in the past - while Jake was remembering things
"as they happened" in the alternate timeline.
Assuming his memories came back, all the horrible "real"
things you mentioned that Connor must now remember also include
the most horrible final memories... the bombs, the hostages, his
father slitting his throat in the moment the mojo takes place
("I don't like people touching my throat"). Does he
remember being "killed" by Angel? Does he wonder what
became of Cordelia? Does he feel guilt about it?
Connor must have a difficult path of nightmares, self-examination
and coping to do if those memories were returned. It's almost
sadder that way. If I ever decide to dabble in fan fiction, I
may have to write stories about the new Connor in Stanford trying
to piece together the two pasts. Plus, what a great spin-off idea.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Duel Memories, Dual Memories
-- Masq, 16:02:32 04/23/04 Fri
I'm assuming since you started spelling correctly half-way through
your post that you *meant* to do that. Because it will be a case
of dual memories dueling. And I find that fascinating. And necessary.
Connor made some bad choices in his real life, like helping Evil!Cordy
kill that girl in "Inside Out". He knew the right thing
to do, he didn't do it. He had a horrible childhood and overpowering
needs, but that only explains his behavior, it doesn't redeem
him from it.
I see Connor's new life and the strength he gained from it helping
him recover from his old life like therapy. And helping him go
on to make better choices and find some sort of redemption from
his past.
And I would LOVE to see that in a spin-off, especially as he learns
he really *does* love a good demon-butt-kicking after all and
becomes the Champion his father wished him to be. Alas, we probably
won't see that.
But some of us are talking about doing it ourselves... group fanfic,
maybe this summer.
[> [> [> [> A forgotten past ceases to matter
-- Finn Mac Cool, 17:23:42 04/23/04 Fri
"Maybe it's Christian upbringing talking here, but how can
we reach atonement/salvation if we forget our sins of the past?"
If we, and everyone who has an effect on our lives, forgets our
sins, then, for all intensive purposes, they never happened. The
past is made solely of memories and leftover evidence. Change
those, and you change the past. Think of it like Schroedinger's
cat. You put a cat in a box that blocks all attempts at finding
out what occurs inside and leave a poison gas in the box that
has a fifty percent chance of killing the cat. According to Schroedinger,
until we open the box and observe what happened to the cat, it
is neither alive nor dead; it is a potential cat. Some other people
have gone on to theorize, though, that if people believe strongly
enough that the cat in the box is dead, then their belief of that
fact actually makes it dead (which would explain affirmations,
a process of taking an event you want to happen and saying it
numerous times; this is supposed to make the event far more likely
to occur). Likewise, as soon as the memories of Connor's past
were wiped away, that past ceased to exist. As soon as new memories
were created, that past came to be the reality. I'm not sure whether
I believe this in the literal, reality altering sense, but I do
in the practical sense. If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody's
around, does it make a sound? My reply to that would be, if no
one was around to hear it, then it doesn't matter whether the
tree made a sound or not. Likewise, I feel that, if all memory
of Connor's original past is gone, then, for all practical purposes,
that past is no longer important.
[> [> [> [> Here's the problem (unspoiled speculation)
-- CW, 06:50:01 04/24/04 Sat
Closure for Connor was never the big issue, in the main story.
If it had been VK would have been a regular this year. It's about
'closure' for Angel. Notice that whether Connor got his memories
back or not, Angel got exactly what he wanted from Wolfram & Hart
in his deal, a strong, happy, well-adjusted, son. Who else can
say they got what they were looking for in moving to W & H? I
don't know what ME will do with this story. But, I know what I'd
have to do. Don't breathe a sigh of relief for Connor yet.
[> [> [> [> [> I'm not -- Masq, 06:56:16
04/24/04 Sat
Don't breathe a sigh of relief for Connor yet.
I'm still worried. But I was worried before you posted this. It
was all a little too pat and happy for my credulity. (but then,
so was "You're Welcome")
[> [> [> [> [> [> Who says it's too pat and
happy? -- Rufus, 18:40:25 04/25/04 Sun
I think there was no end, but a reconcilliation between Angel
and Connor that leaves whatever happens next open to speculation.
Most of what happens in the last scene is body language and emotions
we can read through the characters eyes. It was a new start for
everyone concerned. Wes said that at least they know what happened
now, but there is consequences and payoffs to knowledge. Just
you wait....you'll see...;):):):):):)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not me, not anymore
-- Masq, 09:34:57 04/26/04 Mon
You big friggin' tease!
Just tell me episode 22 isn't "And then everyone dies!"
(ala "Forever Knight") or that there aren't any more
long-time characters dying. I know it's supposed to be angst-filled,
that's what I hear, but I am weary of all the death the past few
years of both shows.
I wrote the above post after watching the episode only once, and
being quite confused by the ending (it was very subtle, I was
a little tipsy) and then talking about it for two days straight
after that. There were a number of ATPoers who saw the ending
in a rosy light, "Connor remembers, he's unfazed by that,
he forgives Angel, he walks off to his happy new life, birds sing,
flowers bloom!"
*Sheesh*. I rewatched the episode Saturday, and then in pain-staking
detail again on Sunday, and the end just makes my heart break.
Of course, I'm fully in Angel's point of view, just wanting a
crumb of my son's acknowledgement, a moment of his company.
And then he walks away, off to a life where he calls another man
"Dad".
*Sob*!!!!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, and
-- Masq, 09:38:49 04/26/04 Mon
Connor isn't smiling when he walks away. That I finally noticed
the second time through, too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh,
and -- angel's nibblet, 01:57:59 04/27/04 Tue
Connor isn't smiling when he walks away. That I finally noticed
the second time through, too.
There is a very quick, subtle smile in Angel's direction as he's
getting on the elevator though...
Atleast I'm hoping it wasn't wishful thinking.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Oh, and -- Arethusa, 04:46:48 04/27/04 Tue
Yes, just a tiny little smaile, and not a happy one either. But
it's there, and he's looking at Angel when he makes it. So maybe
there's hope for them.
[> [> [> [> Re: The viewer's needs -- JM, 17:53:13
04/25/04 Sun
I think the thing that's different this time is the one that's
most important to Connor. Family. He's got it. And he has to be
their protector, just like he wanted to be to Cordy and their
offspring. The dual/duelling memories will be challenging but
I think he'll gladly step up to it for the good people whose happiness
he holds in his hands. Like his father, he finds peace and atonement
through suffering for others.
And he's had some practice in the family he built on foundations
of deceit that summer with Gunn and Fred. This time he just has
much better motives and much improved manners. I really think
he's going to be OK and even enobled.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The viewer's needs --
Jane, 20:47:54 04/25/04 Sun
I agree that Connor's "false" memories have given him
the tools he needs to deal with the "real" ones. In
a sense, he has been given the life he could have had if he hadn't
been raised in a hell dimension. I think he can reconcile the
memories of his old life because his new family loves and believes
in him, and needs his protection. In protecting his family he
will find the strength to forgive himself for his past actions,
and move on. Can I just say how much I loved this episode?
Issue #1 of Supermoppet is already worth $250.00
(a quickie review of--and spoilers for--"Origin")
-- cjl, 11:45:08 04/22/04 Thu
From-the-gut feelings about last night's ep:
THE GOOD:
1. The title. As I saw mentioned on TWOP, "Origin" is
comic book geek shorthand for an origin story, i.e., the birth
of a superhero. He discovers his powers, finds a mentor to train
him, realizes his raison d'etre for superdoing, etc. In this case,
the superhero was Connor, and we saw a lot of the episode through
his eyes. What a wonderful place W&H can be when viewed through
the wide-eyes of a happy teenager! A place where supercool vampires
like Angel and Spike and superhot demon babes like Illyria ("older
women"--heh) fight the forces of evil on a daily basis. Of
course, Happy!Connor doesn't see the pain behind the facades,
but we get enough pain in the course of this series, thank you.
It's another twist on the M.C. Escher perspective we've been dealing
with all season long, and for once, it's a view where the sun
is shining, and all is well in the world. Nice to have a happy
ending of sorts every once in a while.
2. VK and DB. They've been great together since "A New World,"
and they were great together here, too. Maybe it's DB's fatherly
instincts bubbling up to the surface, but he seems especially
"on" whenever Connor's life and/or welfare is at stake,
more emotionally vested in the proceedings. And what can I say
about our Formerly Psycho Moppet? Waltzes on to the set after
a full season away, and acts the living s**t out of Ultimate Drew's
script. The switchover from Nu!Connor to Old!Connor in an eyeblink,
his grin-inducing, leisurely tour of W&H, his matter-of-fact
acceptance of his new abilities and the duel with Sahjahn, the
final goodbye to Angel--VK definitely made some new converts last
night, even amongst the most hardened Connor haters. (Is that
it, though? One and out? Awww. He's gotta come back!)
3. Gunn. See my comment in Masq's summary of "Underneath"
about Gunn's martyr complex and the moral ambiguities of his current
round of self-torture. Still, JAR continues his stellar work in
late S5, easily the pinnacle of Gunn's four years on on the series.
4. Marcus Hamilton. Damn, he IS well-dressed. More interesting
in five minutes than Eve has been in all of Season 5. Adam Baldwin
seems to climb the evolutionary ladder in each genre appearance.
(Killer automaton on X-Files, slow-witted mercenary on Firefly,
and now, urbane and even slightly prissy W&H liaison on Angel.)
Do you get the feeling Joss, Bell and Co. are experiencing buyer's
remorse about Sarah Thompson? (I know I am.)
5. Sahjhan! They actually wrapped up one of the prophecies. Dry
and sarcastic as ever. Wish they could have kept him around a
bit longer, but we've only got four episodes left....
6. Illyria/Spike. Spike, as usual, brings the funny. (Illyria's
request to keep Spike as a pet would be cute if it weren't so
disturbing.)
7. Wes screws himself--again. It's grimly amusing how Wes constantly
searches for the villain of the story, and inevitably, winds up
finding him in the mirror. (Cool SFX for the breaking of the Orlon
Window.)
THE NOT-SO-GOOD:
1. The events of this ep could have easily been spread over two
or three episodes, giving the cast time to chew over the enormous
implications.
2. Cyrus Vail. Too much talky-meat. The exposition in Act II slowed
a fun, fast-moving episode down to a crawl.
3. After Angel went WWE on Vail's demon henchmen, he didn't do
much for the rest of the episode, did he? Fortunately, Boreanaz
is good at reaction shots.
4. Harmony and Lorne. Regulars in name only.
OVERALL: OK, Masq, I'm fully on-board with the Connor-love. (A
little late, I know.) 9 out of 10.
P.S. As to the debate about whether Connor got his memories back
and if so, why the restoration didn't send him over the edge:
Connor knew.
I think the shock of finding out the truth was lessened by the
events of the episode. Superpowers, demon assassins, vampires
with souls, wizards, prophecies--Happy!Connor had time to absorb
all this BEFORE the Orlon Window shattered. The only thing missing
from the picture was WHY Connor is how he is, and he got that
explanation. Granted, the truth turned out to be nothing he could
have possibly expected or wanted, but he got it--and that was
how he could absorb the shock so quickly.
Replies:
[> Re: Issue #1 of Supermoppet is already worth $250.00
(a quickie review of--and spoilers for--Origin) -- Rob, 12:05:15
04/22/04 Thu
The events of this ep could have easily been spread over two
or three episodes, giving the cast time to chew over the enormous
implications.
Actually, I thought that was one of the coolest things about this
episode, and a testament to how brilliantly it was written and
structured (not to mention acted, which is a different issue):
the fact that so much plot, and so many emotional and thematic
issues were covered, and yet none of the major players to this
particular story, at least IMO, felt shortchanged. For example,
Marcus Hamilton's scenes were so great and substantial, as well
as Gunn's, that although they only appeared for a few moments
each, those moments mattered. I will admit that Lorne and Harmony
were window dressing this week, but Wes--man, oh, man! And Illyria,
even in her in-the-background role this week was also given meaty
stuff. The episode felt so right to me, because it actually addressed
so many things that we wanted it to address. The fact that they
actually followed up on Sajhan was absolutely incredible. Connor
was able to fulfill his destiny, and still emerged un-screwed
up. A great deal was covered in this episode, and the writing
had the effect of making it seem longer than it really was, and
definitely not in a bad way.
Rob
[> Re: spoilers for--"Origin") -- Pony, 13:12:33
04/22/04 Thu
I'd forgotten Adam Baldwin was on X-Files! I'm with you on the
Marcus love, though I really don't think Eve was ever particularly
well-presented. Marcus has interesting contradictions built right
in - he's a huge beefy guy in a perfect suit with a helpful, polite
manner. Eve looks like a girl who's out of her depth and that's
pretty much what she turned out to be. I remember when the desriptions
for Eve came out at the start of the season and she was being
called perky evil. I'm wondering if it would have worked better
if they had had her play the cheery corporate team-builder from
hell more, rather than the knowing manner that made her come across
as Lilah-lite. Of course, I'm not convinced she's enough of an
actor to manage any of it.
[> It's only Supermoppet if he has his moppet!hair --
Masq, 13:57:31 04/22/04 Thu
Sahjhan! They actually wrapped up one of the prophecies. Dry
and sarcastic as ever. Wish they could have kept him around a
bit longer, but we've only got four episodes left....
Sahjhan seemed lacking. He seemed less snarky. The whole thing
was too staid and too "set up" for me. Throw Connor
in the room with a weapon. Have Connor release Sahjhan himself.
We get none of Sahjhan's intrigue/history brought back. He's a
plot device set up for the slaughter. Little drama there.
But what *really* didn't work for me was the venue of the big
Connor/Sahjhan show-down. I will love and kiss ME's toes forever
for giving the show-down to me, don't get me wrong. If I could
have had one thing only in a Connor returns episode, that's what
I would have wished for. But they had their fight in this tiny
little room with a table in it. No room for fancy maneuvers and
snark-filled pauses.
Last May, I had a whole outline for a fic I was going to write
to help me get over the trauma of "Home". In it, I set
it up WAY cooler than ME did in this episode (I mean Drew Goddard?
He's a Buffy writer! He doesn't know my Connor! Fury originally
pitched the Connor's parents bring super-power-boy to W&H story
last summer. Or Tim Minear!).
Anyway, in my fic, Wesley comes to Angel at W&H and tells him
that a demon called Sahjhan (who he's forgotten) is loose. Someone
let him out. He does research on Sahjhan and discovers a strange
prophecy: "The one sired by the vampire with a soul will
grow to manhood and kill Sahjan".
Wesley naturally assumes the VWAS is Angel, because in my version
of season 5, there's no pesky who-will-Shanshu mess. But he's
puzzled because he interprets the word "sired" as a
vampire making another vampire: how can someone sired by a vampire
"grow to manhood"?
Wesley goes out hunting for Sahjhan's prophecied killer not knowing
who he is to Angel. Then, in an ironic reversal of season 3 "Sleep
Tight", Wesley brings Connor to Angel instead of taking him
away. One thing leads to another and the memory wipe is reversed.
The story climaxes with Connor going out searching for Sahjhan,
taking on a wary and leery responsibility for his "destiny"
out of a sense of honor he'd picked up from his new parents. Connor
and Sahjhan meet in an alley at night--snark, snark, kapow! thud!--a
fight goes on for five-ten minutes of episode time, cutting periodically
to Angel running frantically to find where Connor went, convinced
he's going to die because he's lost his training. Connor uses
all his cool moves he got back with his memory, like the way he
can walk halfway up a wall and then launch himself at his opponent.
Angel gets there just in time to see prophecy fulfilled.
Cut to commercial, come back to the big angry Angel-Connor confrontation
scene I wanted to see.
[> [> Re: It's only Supermoppet if he has his moppet!hair
-- Darby, 08:04:23 04/23/04 Fri
Couldn't the prophecy now be applied to Spike, who "grew"
until he sought a soul? Siring has always included any direct
lineage (the writerwank from School Hard). That would have
been a meaty misdirect to the characters!
[> [> [> Re: It's only Supermoppet if he has his moppet!hair
-- Masq, 10:58:15 04/23/04 Fri
That interpretation still makes Angel "The Vampire with a
Soul", though. And besides, I don't think that was Spike
wailing wild on good ol' Sahjhan. That was my boy!
[> [> [> [> Re: It's only Supermoppet if he has
his moppet!hair -- Darby, 06:15:29 04/24/04 Sat
True, true. I was just sticking in a potential detail to the breaking
story. Unlike when you first thought about it after Home
(or not clear, at least) would have been Spike's integration into
the group. But by Origins, I'm just sayin' that the group
had been given another possible interpretation of the prophecy
- a reach, but it is one of these Buffyverse fuzzy prophecies.
It would have been interesting for us, the audience, to know (along
with Angel) the real subject of the passage while Spike tries
to sell himself and everyone else that it has to be him. It would
also underline the difficulty of applying these things to real
circumstances. Plus, a fun Spike-gets-his-butt-kicked scene...
[> [> [> [> [> OK, now you're just trying to
push my buttons -- Masq, 06:39:03 04/24/04 Sat
If Spike had killed Sahjhan and fulfilled the prophecy in an emotional-manhood
sort of way, I would have committed hari kiri and my guts would
have spilt all over the board and there would have been a mess
you guys would be cleaning up for months!
Isn't it enough they swapped out VK for JM in season 5? You have
to take everything Connorific away from me and replace it with....
shudders that overexposed S**** person?
*sob* *sniff* *wail*
;o)
[> [> [> [> [> [> No, no, no! -- Darby,
09:25:21 04/24/04 Sat
I guess I'm not explaining this well - this is all plotting detail,
trying to put together a variation on the story told, now that
Spike's in the mix.
Connor would still be the subject of the prophecy, Connor would
still be the only one who could take out Sajhan, but in the process
of a bunch of memory-wiped, Connor-less folks trying to sort out
the prophecy, they could think for a while that Spike should
do it. Then, instead of Illyria beating the bejesus out of Spike,
Sajhan could do it in a preliminary fight to the big showdown
with your boy.
I like misdirects that the audience knows are misdirects, if they
set up an interesting situation (and don't go on too long). I
just thought that a bit of time with Wes et al. thinking
that it must be Spike would be a fun subplot. And wouldn't you
like to see Spike take the first shot and fail, knowing that they
would ultimately need Connor to save the day?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OK, I get it
-- Masq, 15:40:11 04/24/04 Sat
You're fleshing out my plot bunny. Which, btw, I still think would
have been a way cooler way to do "Origin".
Of course, if your addition was added, the episode would be a
2-parter with the Spike mislead first, and there would be a big
discussion between Wesley and Angel and Spike about Spike "growing
to emotional manhood" (the whole s. 4-s. 7 of BtVS trajectory),
with Wesley and Spike arguing on one side ("I have too grown!)
and Angel arguing on the other side, ("Spike? Grown? Pfft!),
with Angel seeming to just be his usual stubborn self in not acknowledging
Spike's growth but in actuality hiding his secret knowledge that
the prophecy does indeed refer to his biological son, not his
grand-vamp-childe.
Which would, of course, spark a raging debate in fandom for the
entire week afterward, with the Spike-Angel wars reigniting and
the board going up in flames, people running screaming, dogs and
cats living together, the apocalypse of Wolfram and Hart landing
squarely in our living rooms, chat rooms, and Live Journals.
Chaos, chaos!
[> Second thoughts, re: C vs S -- Masq, 15:54:53
04/22/04 Thu
While I still think the whole confrontatation between Connor and
Sahjhan was too artifically "set up" for my taste (by
Angel and the demon), rather than being the more "this is
my (Connor's) choice" kind of meeting/kill I would have prefered,
someone on Live Journal made an interesting point about the S-C
confrontation.
They put it in terms of a male rite of initiation into manhood.
"You think you're a man, little boy? Here's your test."
Connor only passes the test, of course, when he's given back his
real childhood. I find that interesting as well.
[> another big clue was a little gesture -- anom, 13:42:19
04/25/04 Sun
"I think the shock of finding out the truth was lessened
by the events of the episode. Superpowers, demon assassins, vampires
with souls, wizards, prophecies--Happy!Connor had time to absorb
all this BEFORE the Orlon Window shattered. The only thing missing
from the picture was WHY Connor is how he is, and he got that
explanation."
Part of that was his original Origin--not the (real) events of
his life but the fact that Angel was his father. Angel gives him
a big clue to this: Just before he goes over to the table to open
the urn, Angel calls him over--& straightens out his collar! Who
would do that but a parent?
I think this was unconscious on both sides. Angel didn't mean
to clue Connor in; he was just looking for something he
could do for his son. And any understanding of the truth on Connor's
part probably wasn't on a conscious level either; if anything,
it would've just seemed like one more little weird thing in the
midst of all the other weirdness, including the way this cool
super-strong guy who's such an awesome fighter has been taking
a personal interest in him all along.
[> [> Re: another big clue was a little gesture --
CW, 20:24:51 04/25/04 Sun
Who would do that, but a mother? It was a cute scene, but
really overly coy when you think about it. Connor barely knows
Angel at this moment. What the heck would he actually think about
Angel after this incident (and before he gets his memory back)?
Connor's not exactly a ten-year-old, and he wasn't exactly headed
to the prom.
[> [> [> Re: another big clue was a little gesture
-- angel's nibblet, 01:17:30 04/27/04 Tue
Who would do that, but a mother? It was a cute scene, but really
overly coy when you think about it. Connor barely knows Angel
at this moment. What the heck would he actually think about Angel
after this incident (and before he gets his memory back)? Connor's
not exactly a ten-year-old, and he wasn't exactly headed to the
prom.
Well, if I was in his situation I would certainly be more concerned
about my surely impending doom since he was about to fight Sahjan
to the death. I didn't even catch that little gesture the first
time I watched. But that could because my Mum kept trying to talk
to me.
My family should know better than to try to communicate with me
whilst watching Angel :-|!
What has the truth set free....spoilers for Origin
-- Rufus, 01:48:58 04/23/04 Fri
I'm going to focus on a few scenes that gave me what I needed
to understand what I saw in Origin.
Connor is back in Angels life in a way unexpected. A warlock,
Vail has sent his demons to get Connor to fight like he once would
have and Connor's parents take him to Wolfram and Hart on the
advice of a policeman. Angel is freaked but he goes and finds
Vail to make sense of what he has to do.
Vail: I wasn't trying to kill your son, you know. I simply
needed him to understand what he is capable of.
Angel: How do you know Connor?
Vail: I built him.
So, Vail is the entrepreneureal form of the Monks who created
memories for Dawn in Buffy season five. In this case, Vail is
strictly a contractor, not someone looking to do good works. Connor
was already created so he only had to alter Connors memories,
all as a result of a contract Angel has with Wolfram and Hart.
Lorne and Wesley found part of the puzzle out....
Lorne: Here we go...Vail listings under accounts paid.
Wes: Wolfram and Hart did business with him?
Lorne: Yeah, looks like he was one of their go-to Warlocks when
it came to the magical mojo. Specialized in memory restructuring,
mind control, temporal shifts....oh boy.
Wes: What is it?
Lorne: You coult buy Bolivia for what we paid him on this one.
Wes: Not just him, he supervised some of the most powerful sorcerers
on the West Coast.
Lorne: Man, power like that, I'm guessing he wasn't just doing
card tricks.
Wes: Some sort of REALITY SHIFT, and it...oh.
Lorne: What?
Wes: It happened the day we took over Wolfram and Hart.
The puzzle is beginning to make some sense of a sort for Wes.
He knows that something is wrong about the day they joined Wolfram
and Hart, the thing is to find out what that is. Angel has found
Vail, killed his guards and spoken to him and found out that Vail
built Connor, at least the alternate Connor, the happy one.
Vail: When Connor was 5, he got lost in a department store.
He wandered off while his family was shopping. It scared the poor
child nearly half to death.
Angel: That never happened.
Vail: Yes...but HE remembers it happening. He remembers screaming
in the middle of the store. He remembers his mother rushing towards
him, and he remembers his father sweeping him up into his arms.
Angel: You built his memories.
Vail: I did, he is some of my finest work.
Vail needs Connor, needs him to kill the Sajhahn in the bottle/urn.
Urns break, and this one wants a permanent cure to his fear of
death. Connor is in the prophecy and it's Connor who is the only
one who can kill Sahjahn. His bargaining chip is the Orlon Window
that houses the memories of everyone who had their memories altered.
Wesley is onto the game but doesn't know why.
Illyria: You are so concerned with names, dates, times.
Wes: Reality's been changed.
Illyria: Define change...The world is as it is.
Wes: Not necessarily.
Illyria: You are a summation of recollections, each change
is simply a point of experience.
Wes: We are more than just memories.
Illyria: And yet Fred changed the moment her memory did.
Wes: Fred's memories were changed?
Illyria: In places.
Wes: Can you see what they were before?
Illyria: No, they're gone. Does this change your view of Fred?
Is she still the person you thought she was.
Wes: No, none of us are.
We see the contract that Angel signed the day they entered Wolfram
and Hart and Wes is out to find the truth. Angel is watching unable
to help Connor who is battling Sajhahn. The Connor without the
past burden and memories has no real experience in fighting. He
does think the idea of being a super hero is on the "cool"
side. Everything around Angel and his friends is new to Connor,
and his lack of a past with fighting experience may just kill
him, or not.
Wes: You changed the world.
Angel: Wes, what are you doing?
Wes: You sold us out to Wolfram and Hart.
Angel: Be careful.
Wes: Is this (the Orlon Window) your 30 pieces of silver?
Angel: Wes, give me that.
Illyria: (punches Angel who lands across the room) He doesn't
follow you any more.
Sajhahn is wiping up the room with Connor. He takes the time to
crow about it too.
Sajhahn: These prophecies are turning out to be pretty overrated.
I gotta tell you kid, you're making a good case for the whole
concept of free-will.
Talk about wasting time talking when the past it about to bite
you in the ass.
Wes: You changed the world.
Angel: He's my son Wesley, Connors my son.
Wes: Did you trade her? Did you trade Fred for your son?
Angel: What?
Wes: Everything that's happened since we took over Wolfram and
Hart, everything that's happened to -- her. Did you know? Was
Fred the price?
Angel: No Wes, I can explain, just put that down.
Wes: Why are you so afraid of this? He said it would bring back
the past. Will it undo what you've done?
Angel: No, it won't bring her back.
Wes: Let's find out.
Angel: No! Please, you have to trust me.
Wes: I can't, not anymore.
Wesley smashes the Orlon Window and the memories come back. We
see Angel and baby Connor, Angel handing Connor to Wes, "The
Father will kill the son", Wes taking Connor and having his
throat slit, Sajhahn opening the Quor toth dimension...faster
and faster the memories come back. Lilah, Jasmine, Cordy, The
Beast, Connor killing Jasmine....Connors last moment before Angel
takes him out in that department store. Then we see Connor, he
knows everything, he remembers how to fight, and Sajhahn has no
chance.
Memories, they are something that we pick and choose to remember
like well worn pages in a book. Some stuff we forget, some stuff
is replayed over and over. Connor now has the memories of two
lives, Wes remembers what he had done. Angel goes to Connor who
has put down the axe and no longer looks so enthused about being
any kind of super hero.
Angel: Connor?
Connor: Whoa! You see that? I went a little hard core there for
a second. That guy made me really cranky.
Angel: Are you okay?
Connor: Yeah, I guess I don't really like people touching my neck.
Angel: Connor.
Connor: Hey, can we get out of here? I'd like to go back, see
my parents. This whole fighting thing I'm not, I'm not sure it's
for me.
So, did Connor forget who he was as suddenly as he remembered
it? I wonder, and it's what Wes says that made up my mind about
what Connor remembered, or not.
Illyria: You betrayed Angel, you stole his son, he tried to
kill you.
Wes: Yes.
Illyria: Are these the memories you needed back? Does this now
make you Wesley?
Wes: At least I know what happened.
Illyria: Do you? There are 2 sets of memories, those that happened
and those that are fabricated -- it's hard to tell which is which.
(interesting thing for Illyria to say about memories)
Wes: Try to push reality out of your mind. Focus on the other
memories. They were created for a reason.
Illyria: To hide from the truth.
Wes: To endure it.
I think Wesley explains exactly what Connor has done to cope with
who he has been. Vail created a healthy person and the memories
of that healthy person soothe who Connor has been. Doesn't mean
that Connor will stay with Angel, but it can mean he now understands
his real father just a bit more, like Wes now does.
Connor: I thought the sunlight burned you up?
Angel: (laughs) Special Glass.
Connor: Cool, you should like, make a whole suit out of it - like
the Pope has.
Angel: How's your dad?
Connor: He's fine, they're releasing him now. I should warn you,
he's pretty pissed. I told him you took me out demon fighting
and, uh almost got me killed. He wants to have a talk with you.
Angel: (uncomfortable) All right....I'll...
Connor: I'm kidding. Man, you've gotta lighten up. He thinks we
spent the whole night doing tests. I told him I could bench press
like, a 1000 pounds.
Angel: What are you going to tell them about...who you are?
Connor: The truth, more or less. I'll tell them that I'm different.
I'll tell them it's actually a good thing. I'll tell them to stop
worrying so much.
Angel: Well, they're parents.
Connor: Yeah, I know. They'll feel a lot better knowing you're
looking out for me.
Angel: We still haven't found Vail...but we will.
Connor: I'm not too worried about him, nothing he can show
me I already haven't seen anyway.
I just want to say goodbye. I've gotta go back to my life now.
Angel: Oh, do you really have to leave? I mean right now?
Connor: I kinda think I should. I need to take care of my parents.
This isn't their world, they really don't feel safe here. You
gotta do what you can to protect your family....I learned that
from my father.
Connor went from coming to LA because his parents wanted to protect
him, to becoming the protector of his family. This family may
not be the one he originated from but his memories tell him they
are as real as Angel is. Connor can't live in Angel's world, but
now he understands what his father did to give him a second chance.
His new memories help him endure his past. His new family give
him the love he never got in Quor toth. His family only know him
as their son. He knows the truth, Angel knows the truth and the
truth is something that Connor seems to be able to cope with now.
He may never become a super hero like his father, but he has the
chance to graduate from Stanford, the chance to have a future
family of his own. He has also let Angel know that it's okay to
look out for him, but their relationship can never be more than
one of knowing that you can be loved even by someone you may never
see again.
PS: Don't you wonder what's floating around in Illyria's head
now?
Replies:
[> Thanks, this was good -- Masq, 11:24:03 04/23/04
Fri
[> [> Why thank you......inside a non-spoilery comment
about spoilers. -- Rufus, 23:55:58 04/23/04 Fri
Connor: I'm not too worried about them, nothing they can show
me I already haven't seen anyway. (I know I changed the words
a bit)
These are the times I'm glad to be an unashamed Trollop. Watching
the minefield of posts that spoil others just have me mumbling...."that's
right, or, interesting way to interpret things but that's not
right". There is nothing out there I haven't already seen
or made up myself (j/k).
[> [> [> I'm sure it makes life easier in some ways!
-- Masq, 06:33:14 04/24/04 Sat
I've heard very little about the season finale, but there was
one specific thing I heard that has me very worried. I'm reading
my own issues into it, probably, but I will have to wait until
the ep airs to know for sure.
It'll have me all tummy-rumbly for a few weeks, but I've found
that I enjoy the episodes so much more when the surprises come
to me during the actual airing of the ep.
[> Freds memory -- Rufus, 06:08:55 04/26/04 Mon
There were a few things I noticed about the episode that had me
wondering what the heck. Illyria noted that Fred's memories had
been altered. Considering Freds memories were supposed to be gone
does that mean that Illyria is referencing the information left
after Freds memory was gone? Add on the fact that now that the
Orlon Window has been smashed we may just have a new deal here.
Fred's memory has had an impact upon Illyria but will there be
a difference in Illyria now that Freds memories from the past
have been set free? Did Illyria get them and if so what will she/it
do about them?
Before the smashing of the Orlon Window Illyria says this:
Illyria: You are a summation of recollections, each
change is simply a point of experience.
After the Orlon Window is no more....
Illyria: Do you? There are 2 sets of memories, those that
happened and those that are fabricated -- it's hard to tell which
is which.
I ask the question, even though Illyria is an Old One is she/it
having an identity crisis brought on by Freds memories? She says
that the 2 sets of memories are hard to tell apart. Makes one
wonder if she is someone with 3 sets or memories...those as Illyria,
god of gods, and Fred, both sets of memories from Fred.
[> [> Yeah, about that -- JM, 18:46:44 04/26/04
Mon
I am starting think that Illyria either lied or underestimated
the fragments. They seem to be a lot more than fragments. I also
thought it was intersting that she was so intense about Wes maybe
changing his opinon about Fred if she was changed by the memory
spell. (The conversation in the basement, where he never does
answer her.)
I was getting the impression that she seems to have invested in
him as her guide and thinks that his commitment to her resides
largely with his memory of Fred (probably accurate). She seems
threatened by something that would impact his memories of Fred.
I thought that was intersting.
The Origin of the Apocalypse (spoilers Underneath)
-- Lunasea, 12:37:20 04/23/04 Fri
I really do need to finish my essay on "Underneath."
Since I won't have time to do that until next week, here is the
conclusion. It is important for when I am talking about "Origin."
I also need it for other essays I want to do.
The ultimate goal of depth psychology is not to deconstruct a
dream or in this case a television show. The ultimate goal of
depth psychology isn't even to aide the process of individuation.
Underneath these is something much broader. The symbolism of location/setting,
characters, objects and themes (this is what the essay goes into.
I still have the last part to do. I have the first three done
and can post that) is ultimately part of a greater story. Underneath
every story every told, every symbol ever dreamed is our humanity.
For five years on Angel, Joss has explored just what this is.
It isn't about Angel's quest to be a real boy. It is an exploration
of just what it means to be a real boy. Then armed with that knowledge,
real boyness/humanity can better be expressed.
Angel's conflict appears to be between man and demon, good and
evil. The entire mythology of the slayer is built on fighting
demons. Some groups see this in a very black and white manner.
Demons are evil, the heroes are struggling to be good. Some see
the universe as very grey. This is still looking at the Buffyverse
along a continuum of good and evil. This is furthered by the importance
of the soul, which determines with a character is oriented to
good or to evil.
The demons, for the most part, inflict harm on others. This harm
is the typical standard that good/evil is measured by. This is
why demons, with some exceptions, are considered evil. It is also
why they are said to be soulless and oriented to evil. The evil
of the demonic word is not harm for harm's sake though. Demons
in the Buffyverse mirror the issues of the characters. Those demons
cause harm because those issues harm the characters. They cause
harm because they live in the dark subterranean world of the unconscious.
As the characters deal with their issues, they physically defeat
the demons.
In "Underneath," what is underneath each character is
shown. This is not necessarily evil, even in the case of Illyria.
The bad guys this season have been human for the most part. The
show is moving away from good/evil as represented by demons and
darkness. Illyria is an Old One who is being incorporated into
the team. Angel and Spike are protected by necrotempered glass
and alternate realities so they can go into the light.
Angel's conflict between man and demon has been transformed. "Underneath"
doesn't just show what is underneath the characters. It shows
what is underneath the Buffyverse at this point. According to
Lindsey, the apocalypse has already begun. Angel says he can philosophize
all night. They have been, for eight years. It is time to get
underneath that. A season about corruption involves the characters
being corrupted. Lindsey explains how a hero is corrupted. (this
will be elaborated on in another essay about what a hero is)
The harm to others that gets labeled good/evil has been transformed
to the harm done when we conform/work with the system. The hell
that is underneath Angel isn't the Hellmouth. It is Suburbia.
Lindsey's perfect family covers up his punishment in the basement.
It shows the wrath people inflict on themselves living in Suburbia.
When the spell is broken by Angel, Lindsey's "family"
turns on him, much as Sharon Stone did on Arnold Schwartzenegger
in Total Recall. What is necessary to become part of this perfect
world is to forget, but even that can't protect us against the
Wrath in the basement.
The memory wipe that Angel did on the gang did not rob them of
feelings or growth. Their cookies still baked. What it did was
make them vulnerable. Lindsey feels that he shouldn't go in the
basement. He doesn't know why. Gunn could not remember and therefore
learn from the mistakes Wesley made season three. Instead the
gang got caught up in the day-to-day of running Wolfram and Hart.
When people get caught up in the day-to-day that makes up Suburban
life, they forget about what is important and lessons they learned.
From this the apocalypse forms.
Holland in "Reprise" tells Angel that Wolfram and Hart
are in the hearts of everyone. They were there when the first
human clubbed his neighbor. That sounds like they are involved
in the clubbing. Equating the Senior Partners with evil and therefor
harm to others supports this. Evil is now being equated with conformity
itself. As such Holland's words need to be reexamined. There are
three parties involved in an attack. There is the attacker, the
victim and the witness. It is the reaction of the witness that
forms society.
Illyria is dismissive of the Senior Partners. To her, they are
a second rate power. They are not an Old One. They have risen
in stature greatly since the Old Ones walked the earth. They are
now the ones driving the apocalypse. They have becomes greater
as the witness who works with the system, thus fostering a particular
system.
This is not something completely new to the series. Season one,
Lilah tries to get Angel to work with the system in "The
Ring." In "Blind Date," Lindsey questions whether
to work with the system. In "Dead End," he decides that
the price to himself is too high to stay with the system. This
makes him the perfect foil for Angel. Season two as Angel is going
through is "dark" phase and is breaking completely from
any sort of system good or evil, Lindsey is working with that
system. When Angel rejoins the gang and tries to conform to a
system of good, Lindsey leaves and advises Angel on how to beat
Wolfram and Hart.
Much of Lilah's arc rests in her ping-ponging between working
with Wolfram and Hart and working against their plans for Angel.
Season three, she is willing to work with Sahjan. Season four,
she allies herself with the gang after Wolfram and Hart are destroyed
by the Beast. This results in her death. In "Home,"
Wesley tries to free her, but she has committed herself to the
system with an eternal contract. Lilah's commitment to her own
ends is used to bring her into Wolfram and Hart/the system and
keep her there. When Lindsey leaves, he recommends they promote
Lilah because she really know how to work the system. Lindsey
know this is what the Senior Partners value because he is capable
of seeing the big picture.
All the symbolism of "Underneath" is to set up this
message about the evil of conforming to the system. The evil of
the system isn't the overt harm of people like Fries who was willing
to destroy LA. The evil is the harm done to the individual by
conforming and playing a game that isn't your own. Wolfram and
Hart win and the Senior Partners gain in stature every time someone
agrees to their rules at the expense of himself and what he believes.
Even if Angel does manage to help more people with the resources
of Wolfram and Hart, the Senior Partners have won because he is
now part of the system. He hasn't become overtly evil, but he
has been corrupted.
What is underneath the characters can be considered selfish and
that is labeled evil by some. Illyria is heartless and cannot
sympathize with Wesley. Wesley who makes the hard decisions is
drowning in his grief. Gunn who is dedicated to the mission is
feeling the effects of his selfish decision to get lawyered-up.
Lorne is admitting that he wants to be selfish. Typically this
attitude is seen as evil. Angel needs to reconnect with others.
Building a family is an important theme to the Buffyverse. Being
selfish would hinder this.
This idea can be taken to extremes. A table is something to gather
around. It unifies a group. It also allows people to maintain
some space from each other. This gives them a work space. The
goal of individuation isn't for everyone to be the same It is
to becomes who people are. Conforming to how society is does not
allow this. Selfishness can be taken to an extreme. It can also
be used to protect our identity.
Because Lindsey is out for himself and sees nothing wrong with
going against either the Senior Partners or Angel, the Wrath cannot
hurt him much. We see in "Life of the Party" the toll
everything is taking on Lorne. Gunn will be at the Wrath's mercy
(or lack of it) because he suppressed this side and it exploded
causing his friends a lot of harm. Angel cannot achieve balance
without this side. Before he can ask out werewolf girl, he has
to believe that he deserves some happiness. The gypsy curse has
had a similar effect that Spike's chip had. It conditioned him.
Like's Spike's conditioning, it can be undone by taping into what
is underneath him.
"Underneath" through location/setting, characters, objects
and themes starts a more overt exploration of what is underneath
the Buffyverse. It is not the harm that we do to each other that
has driven five seasons. It is the harm we do to ourselves by
pushing things underneath. One reason is to conform to the life
we believe we are told we should have, the hell of Suburbia. Angel's
enemy isn't Spike or Lindsey. It is Everyone Loves Raymond.
(continue for Origin)
Replies:
[> Re: The Origin of the Apocalypse (spoilers Origin)
-- Lunasea, 12:39:21 04/23/04 Fri
So that is just the conclusion for what I wrote about "Underneath."
Taking perspective that with only a few shows of Angel to go ever,
how does "Origin" flow from this?
It should be well known that I am a title junkie. Almost all my
analyses revolve around the title somehow. I had trouble writing
this at first because last week showed what was underneath the
characters. This week did not show their origins. They were back
to their standard personas, but that was about it.
Then it hit me. I didn't want to talk about what the title referred
to. It was darker than anything Joss has ever shown or done. Underneath
the sunny message of hope, love and friendship that runs the series
lies something very scary. In this episode that was one of the
most beautiful ever written was a very dark message, hidden in
one word, the title.
Lindsey dropped a bomb last week. THE apocalypse has already began.
This episode didn't refer to this bomb. Instead the negative space
this created was filled by a beautiful story that easily distracted
us from this. It was a story about the power of love, everything
beautiful about the series. There is still that nagging title,
though.
What went through my mind as I was typing up my original analysis
was "Origin of the Species." Claudia has made the accusation
that this episode blames Angel for the Apocalypse. Not exactly.
What this episode did was show an example of what starts the apocalypse.
It isn't Angel accepting the Senior Partners offer that does.
It is why he did, namely that he loves his son. The Senior Partners
tried to entice Angel several ways. They tried to use the good
in Angel against him. The only thing he couldn't resist was his
love for his son. He wasn't interested in anything that could
be construed as selfish, such as necrotempered glass or a motor
pool of cool cars. He wasn't interested in being able to help
the masses better. He had accepted that the best thing he could
do was live in the world the way it should be, thus doing exactly
what he was supposed to be. He wasn't interested in saving Buffy.
He trusted she could save herself. He was even OK with not locating
Connor and Cordy. He believed he'd find them eventually. It was
the immediacy of the situation combined with love for his son,
that put him where the Senior Partners wanted him.
The secondary characters explored other themes. Wesley explored
the theme of loyalty. One of my favorite linse this episode was
when Illyria says "He no longer follows you." It is
Wesley's loyalty to Angel that places him at Wolfram and Hart.
He turns down his "father's" offer to come back to the
Watcher's Council because of this. Gunn explored the theme of
personal responsibility. It was a beautiful moment when he places
the necklace back on, but by doing so, he remains in Wolfram and
Hart's waiting room, under their control. Spike is finally being
a team player. He had a briefcase in "Underneath" and
now he is playing flunkie and testing Illyria.
These all seem to be "good" things. Their hearts are
in the right place for the most part. Because of this, their hearts
can be ripped out. Perhaps that is what Wolfram and Hart want.
They perpetuate the system that destroys our humanity. They use
everything they can do to this, including our own humanity.
Connor leaves telling Angel that he has to protect his family.
How much evil do people let slide because of the ramifications
to our families? Every time we keep silent about something because
we don't want the fall out to hurt those we love, we are perpetuating
the system as the silent majority. We conform to what we think
is the majority opinion rather than speak out. This robs us of
our individuality, what THE apocalypse is about.
Wesley is very loyal to those he loves. He is willing to do whatever
is necessary for them. His theft of Connor is both a betrayal
and an act of love, comparable to Buffy in "The Gift"
or Angel in "Home." If he had succeeded, Wesley would
have lost everything he valued in this world. He was willing to
do this to protect Angel. This was used against him by Holtz and
then by the Senior Partners. Once Angel accepted their offer,
Wesley was going to go along. He ignores his reservations which
are part of his individuality.
Gunn's corruption seemed to be more overt. He accepted the deal
with the devil to get lawyered-up. What made him special, changed
him. His specialness was a divergence from who he was as an individual.
Gunn is not stupid, but he is not lawyer guy. He likes to get
his hands messy. He gives this up to be what he considers more
valuable. Then when he makes a mistake, he takes full responsibility
for his choice. This is very honorable, but this honor is used
against him.
Spike is getting beaten up by Illyria. What makes Spike such an
individual, namely love's bitch, is being used against him to
get him to contribute to the team. He loves a good fight and that
is just what testing Illyria is. Wesley tells him they have mechanical
methods of testing her. That isn't what Spike wants. He wants
to get his hands messy. Spike loves something else, even if he
won't admit it, Angel. His love for Angel is even greater than
his love/obsession for Buffy. This is why he is still in LA.
All these wonderful, honorable things are the origins of THE apocalypse.
Connor is actually saved in this episode, making the episode truly
beautiful. Gunn choses torture over more corruption, making the
episode even more beautiful. It seems to be a nice sunny episode,
even in its pain. That covers up something more sinister, just
like the Hell dimension did. The episode itself was an example
of the origin of the apocalypse. None of us are immune to it.
Every time we give up our individuality, even for "good"
reasons, we further the creation of the Hell dimension where there
was no individuality. Lindsey and Gunn had the same life, as did
everyone who went out to get their papers in the morning. Every
house was the same. Every day was the same. Every line was the
same. That is THE apocalypse that Joss is fighting against.
And lost. Angel will be no more. Even though Joss made the changes
requested and changed the story to fit the WB's image of what
they wanted, he was still canceled. Because he didn't play their
game as much as they wanted, his voice will be silenced. Hell!Wife
and Hell!kid aimed their guns at him and opened fire.
Long may Serenity fly.
[> [> Interesting perspective, although I hope that you
are wrong -- Bjerkley, 14:18:42 04/23/04 Fri
I grew up, and still live, in surbubia, and while it bored/s me
to tears, it's by no means hell. Or maybe it is hell, but only
to those comfortable enough to envisage something different or
are able to change their situations. But really, there are things
far worse on this earth than living a routine existence.
Interesting aside - centuries ago, the Christian Church's vision
of hell was that it was dirty, smelly, overcrowded, full of sexual
acts and violence. And while this horrified the more gentrified
elements of society, it really didn't have the same effect on
the poorest, mainly because it sounded an awful lot like their
lives as they were. So hell subtly changed until it became something
that all could fear.
Anyway.
I would be very disappointed if the underlying main theme of this
season, and perhaps the show, was basically about resisting the
man, not giving in to homogenity, and perpetuating the idea that
there is nothing worse than to live in a world of surbuban houses.
Because while individuality and creativity are all essential facets
of life, to me at least, to be railing against conformity seems
slightly sixth-formerish. It fails to recognise that behind closed
doors there lies a wealth of individuality, of pain, of hapiness,
of possibilities. Who we are doesn't have to be defined by our
surroundings. Or so I like to think - it's only if we choose that
ourselves.
While the surbuban hell and conformity has similarities with the
Jasmine storyline, the important distinction lies in that in Jasmine's
world, free will was non existent. Whereas can it be said to be
a hell if people choose conformity to protect the ones they love?
Their choice, their lives, their potential happiness. And I would
be a little leary if Joss was railing against this, given his
rather staid lifestyle of working hard, and living with a wife
and kid in a nice big ole house :-)
Protecting the one's you love doesn't have to be mututally exclusive
with being an individual, living life as you choose, nor is it
necessarily a given that evil can be created by this happening.
I would say that this is only the case when you allow something
bad to happen, or ensure it does, for your own family. And is
that that common?
For me, the theme of Angel that I prefer is that in which Angel
helps the helpless, sees the way in which life can be harsh and
cruel, yet still makes an attempt to alleviate the worst of it
for those who can receive no help elswhere. Giving up on that,
to me, is the first step towards hell, and that's not even a metaphor.
[> [> [> Hell and heaven compared (spoilers Underneath)
-- Lunasea, 09:09:56 04/26/04 Mon
The worst hell imaginable was Quor-Toth, not Lindsey/Gunn's Suburbia.
Other Hell dimensions we have seen or had referenced are where
Buffy was in "Anne," where Angel came back from in "Faith,
Hope and Trick," Oden Tal from "She," and Pylea.
All of these places have one in thing in common, they rob the
individual of their identity. This has been consistent from season
3 BtVS on.
In Anne, we see our first Hell dimension. The defining moment
of the show was when Buffy reasserts her identity (as she does
every season premier). Ken says "What is Hell but the total
absence of hope? The substance, the tactile proof of despair?"
This leads him to be able to rob them of their identities and
make them slaves. "No. But... I know you... *Anne.* So afraid.
So pathetically determined to run away from whatever it is you
used to be. To disappear. Congratulations. You got your wish."
The guards make people even relinquish their names, a very powerful
symbol of identity.
The next hell dimension we learn about is where Angel was sent
to. Giles describes this in "Beauty and the Beast" as
"a world of... brutal torment. ...It would take someone of
extraordinary will and character to survive that and, uh, retain
any semblance of self. Most likely, he'd be, be a monster."
When we see Angel, he is a monster who has lost his identity.
He even attacks Buffy. Angel is able to recover because of who
he is. Just like Buffy in "Anne," he ultimately reasserts
who he is in one of the shows most powerful moments when he recognizes
Buffy and falls to his knees. Hell tried to take away his humanity,
his reason and his ability to respond to love.
Oden Tal is where the female demons are fleeing from in "She."
Marti got to pen another hell dimension (she also wrote "Beauty
and the Beast") because men are trying to take away their
Ko. This is where "what you call personality ñ our
passions ñ those impulses - sit."
The black and white world of Pylea is where Lorne is from. Humans
are slaves referred to as cows. They aren't even allowed to talk
much. There is no music on Pylea, even though there is dance.
The entire population is under the control of the Priests. We
see this hell dimension over several episodes. Fred is a slave.
Cordelia is a figure-head princess. The Grusalog is a Champion
controlled by the Priests. Angel becomes the Angel!beast, the
pure form of the demon inside of him. Each of these roles tries
to rob the character of who they really are. Lorne is hated by
his own mother because he won't conform to what his society wants.
Sahijan rips the fabric of time and space to Quor-toth the worst
hell imaginable. This hell dimension robs Connor of everything.
There he is brainwashed by Holtz so that unlike Angel season 3
of BtVS, he can't respond to love. Because of this, he is iredeemable.
Connor wants to know who he is and even goes to Lilah to find
this out.
Another Hell dimension was Illyria's temple. It has been destroyed
by time. Even her statue is no longer standing. After traveling
here, she is lost. She has no army. She has no world.
That last hell dimension we have seen is Suburbia. What makes
this a hell dimension is 1) the total uniformity of everything.
The houses are the same and everyone gets their paper at the same
time. Are those people also waiting for Wolfram and Hart's decision
on what to do with them? 2) it doesn't change from day to day.
Gunn just slips into Lindsey's place, even saying the same lines.
3) the amulet that makes you forget and thus traps you there.
According to Darla, it is our memories, our feelings that make
us who we are. That amulet robs the wearer of these, thus making
them nothing. 4) lots of punishment by the Wrath. This punishment
is ripping out our hearts, feelings, what Darla says makes us
who we are.
The unifying thing to all the hell dimensions, and this has been
consistent on both series, is how they affect identity. We can
add Spike's experiences with Pavayne to this. The torture either
leads to loss of identity or that is the torture itself.
This can be contrasted with heaven. Buffy describes where she
was after she died in "After Life" as "Time ...
didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still
me, you know? And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was
finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions,
or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven."
Buffy describes the return to earth as hell. It has robbed her
of those feelings she had in heaven. She no longer has anything
to sing about. She has lost her identity so much, that Spike can
convince her she belongs in the dark with him. She turns her back
on the things that are important to her and seeks escape from
everything with him. Until Riley helps her remember who she is
and that "none of this touches you," Spike can control
her.
Another character has been to heaven/higher realms, Cordelia.
Her little bitch sessions the first episodes of season 4 show
that she has retained her identity. She is still Queen C, perhaps
even moreso than she was on earth season 1-3 of AtS. Angel described
what he saw using the Axis of Pythia in "Ground State"
as "There was all this light around her, and the light seemed
to be made up of ... pure joy. And warmth." and "Finally
I find her, and I realize she already is home. Where she belongs."
(this ties to the season finale "Home")
The important part of Suburbia as hell is the conformity it represents,
the pull to give up your identity and live with Hell!wife and
Hell!kid that covers up the Wrath in the basement. Hell!wife sends
Lindsey/Gunn to the basement to face the Wrath. When he remembers,
Hell!wife and Hell!kid turn on Lindsey.
Who we are doesn't have to be defined by our surroundings, but
we have to resist it. Joss' story is created to help people resist
it. Like the Book of Revelation which talks about the apocalypse,
it is resistance literature created to meet a crisis. That crisis
involves anything that threatens our individuality/identity, whether
that is the "paradise" of Jasmine lacking free-will
or anything that has been illustrated by the various hell dimensions.
It deals with anything that tempts us not to be "finished"
or be "home."
Put another way, Joss is writing for an audience that has met
the lower levels of Maslow's Hierarchy, so he isn't addressing
them. Instead he is working on not stopping at social/love and
acceptance. He encourages us to move on to self-esteem, cognitive,
and aesthetic and to settle for nothing short of self-actualization.
He even encourages us to work on transcendent needs. That to me
is the overall message of his shows.
Time in another interesting component in a Hell!dimension that
I hope to revisit after "Time Bomb."
[> What is a hero? (mild spoilers Underneath and Origin)
-- Lunasea, 10:36:56 04/25/04 Sun
Today's essay is about what a hero is in the Buffyverse and how
it seems to have changed. I can't be sure it has until we get
to the season finale. Just because Lindsey said something it doesn't
make that gospel. He isn't a PTB or a conduit to them. He isn't
a Spirit Guide. He is just a character that seems to have more
of a clue than anyone else. Are his words a departure from the
definition of "Champion" set down in IWRY or are they
an expansion? Are they true, false or some combination?
When Greenwalt left the show, AtS definitely went in some new
directions. He wrote IWRY in which the hero was defined based
on what he gives up for others. Joss' definition of hero is set
down in "The Gift." His hero is more than someone who
will give up everything for someone. In "The Gift,"
Giles give another part of the hero definition. She is someone
that can't do certain things. Lindsey's words in "Underneath"
echo this.
There have been several interesting discussions on the board in
the last few weeks. They aren't interesting in what is being said,
but more that they are even being discussed. The glue factory
that is racism in the Buffyverse has reared its head yet again,
more than once. I find it fascinating that when someone give a
voice to the voiceless, others demand that that voice speak for
them as well. I think Joss does speak for them and he does it
in a beautiful way. He's just not doing it how they want him to.
Joss lives in the world the way it should be to show it how it
can be. That is how Joss writes his show. He did not spare Tara
because she was gay. He wanted Amber Benson to come back and play
the First before Tara was brought back. Tara is not a gay character.
She is a character who happens to be gay. That is how things should
be. He deals with racism the same way. Wood was black because
Nikki was black. Nikki was black because Petrie wanted to write
a Shaft-like Slayer and Shaft is black. They didn't think, "I
want a black Slayer or her mean black son." They wanted a
cool slayer and her avenging son. Race is treated the same way
that homosexuality is, namely how it should be.
These issues were dealt with on the show, like everything is dealt
with on the show, through the metaphor of demons. "Family"
deals with homosexuality. Doyle's half-bred status is the subject
of "Hero." Racial stereotypes are dealt with in "That
Gang of Mine." Even if Gunn's gang is pretty much a walking
stereotype themselves, those stereotypes are going after the metaphor.
Should Joss have brought in black writers and had more characters
of color?
Random wrote about social responsibility and the artist. I would
say the artist has the same social responsibility that every human
being does, namely to make this world a better place. There are
all sorts of ways to do this. Social activism is only one way.
Contributing something of beauty, to me, makes this world better.
Being true to yourself, to me, makes this world a better place.
Social activism can be overtly served by what those that accuse
the show of neglecting its social responsibility want. It is also
served by what Joss does, namely showing the world what it can
be. This is much more subtle. It is easy to overlook it or label
it as not addressing the issue. These subtle messages speak to
something more powerful though. They speak to our unconscious,
the origin of everything.
Including the Apocalypse. Lindsey says that a hero doesn't work
with the system. In "Life of the Party" we see the toll
this is taking on Lorne. The hero is a metaphor for Self. The
hero's journey is a metaphor for the process of individuation
or the spiritual journey that Manwitch writes so eloquently about.
Joss' hero isn't just about saving the world. He is also about
saving himself. "In dying we are born to eternal life."
(Prayer of St. Francis at the end of "Grave"). Through
saving the souls of others, Angel saves his own. This doesn't
mean he earns heaven points. Instead, every time he reaches out
to others, he gives his heart a vehicle for expression. This allows
him to get in touch with his own humanity and realize that he
isn't a monster.
Joss' story is a wonderful dance between extrovert and introvert.
The extrovert makes the world a better place by focusing on others.
The introvert makes the world a better place by focusing on himself.
Balance requires both perspectives. A hero helps others, but doesn't
lose himself in the process. A hero can die for Dawn, but can't
kill Ben. This all gets more complicated when practicality enters.
If Ben didn't die, Glory would have returned to cause more problems.
That is where Giles comes in.
LMPTM gets a lot of criticism. The cut scene where Giles talks
about his feelings about killing Ben would have improved the episode
greatly. Giles had to kill Ben because Buffy couldn't. That doesn't
mean that he has no feelings about this. This can be compared
to Fred/Gunn killing Professor Seidel. We do things that have
to be done. That doesn't mean that doesn't eat us up inside.
So what do we do? What do we do when the only way to save our
son is to agree to work with the system? Or was it? Angel agreed
to take possession of Wolfram and Hart, LA Branch to do with whatever
he pleased. In "Conviction" he was about to dismantle
it. Can we work within the system, not to our benefit, but to
dismantle or change it? "You don't kill and we won't kill
you." Is that working with the system? When the new Liaison
showed up, he said he had all these ideas and was looking forward
to sharing them with Angel. Angel said "This is my house.
The only ideas that matter are mine." If Angel can actually
keep that up, is he working with the system?
Lindsey: Every day you sit behind your desk and you learn a little
more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub...
heroes don't do that. Heroes don't accept the world the way it
is. They fight it.
Can Angel fight the beast from inside its belly? The belly is
traditionally the softest part of a beast. One well placed sword
and many a mythological beast has gone down with a gut wound.
That is where there is a spark of hope left in this series. Cordy
got to play Higher Consciousness/Conduit to the PTBs this season.
She is their messenger and her job was to get her guy back on
track. She did that.
Cordy: But you're bigger than that. You'll win this in the end.
...We take what we can get, champ, and we do our best with it.
Resisting corruption means sitting behind the desk and instead
of learning more how to accept the world the way it is, learning
more how to change the world. This was part of Joss' definition
of Slayer: Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain.
Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love
will bring you to your gift. (Intervention). Translated to Angel,
this means that because of love, Angel was placed in the belly
of the beast where he was faced with self doubt. A Champion takes
that doubt and uses it to fire himself up to fight the good fight.
He uses that doubt to find out who he is and remain true to that.
Lindsey is very good at seeing in the heart of things. He is still
too much of a rebel to see it completely clearly. To him, the
hero avoids corruption by avoiding temptation or actively rebeling.
A hero really is someone that forges strength from pain, strength
from doubt, strength from temptation. The Hell that is Suburbia
can only be undone in Suburbia. The door out is in the basement
through the Wrath.
[> [> One size doesn't qiute fit all. -- Cactus Watcher,
19:29:39 04/25/04 Sun
I've stayed out of the social activism debate, but I'll chime
in here to agree with you. Not everything has to 'carry the banner
forward' to be good art. If an artist wants to make statements
about the social issues of the day that's fine, but demanding
every artist to do so, is, in fact, just another form of censorship.
If those of you who think otherwise could read book after book
of Soviet era Russian literature, you'd find, fawning paeans to
Lenin and Stalin aside, very little objectionable in the philosphy
espoused in the works. But you'd find whole classes of works crippled,
by the onus of touching absolutely every one of the bases of what
was considered a socially responsible work of art in those days
in that society.
I have to disagree about Giles in LMPTM. Such an admission be
out of place, putting Giles' inner emotions to the fore in an
episode about Spike's and Wood's motivations. Further I'm not
at all convinced Giles had the emotions you're ascribing to him.
Personally I think once Dawn let it be know how Ben openly betrayed
her, any second thoughts Giles might have would be gone. As you
say he killed Ben because he had to. Once there was no reason
to feel guilty over Ben's possible innocence, I would guess it
was not something Giles gave much thought about again.
What did happen in LMPTM is related to what happened in The Gift,
namely Giles trying to do something he felt Buffy could not do
for herself. This time Giles reason's were based on Spike's past
behavior, not on what seemed likely in the future. Imagine if
Giles had taken Willow and Xander to the mansion and slain Angel
as soon as he found out he was back in season 3. The situations
were similar, but with Spike Giles felt the fate of the world
might be at stake. I think this weakness in his approach is just
as interesting, if Giles has no remorse over Ben as if he does.
[> [> [> Social activism -- Rahael, 01:34:47
04/26/04 Mon
excuse the lowercase typing. i have hurt my hand and it's too
painful to press the caps key!
i don' think the race thread demanded that joss take a social
activist stand on race. indeed i am reluctant to urge that on
authors and artists. they need not have any political message.
we can all read things into the buffyverse - but the final thing
is, in this arena, I think it's an arguable point, as to race.
i think it's worth debating. of course, i have been instructed
above that joss doesn't speak to me (so clear off, peasant!).
I just am interested in putting these works into their social
context. not what the author *should* be saying, but what is the
author saying? what are the implications for the entire content
of the piece? these questions arise for me precisely because i
think Btvs has used metaphor to talk about prejudice. so what
happens when the metaphor changes?
what are the implications when the power of the slayer turns from
otherness into a kind of original sin?
joss has pointed to himself as carrying a socially progressive
message, repeatedly. he should be able to be judged on those terms
without crumpling.
at the end of the day, we should be able to have this debate without
the underlying message that the Buffyverse is white (pointing
to typical real -life suburbs, which clearly contain vamps, too
right?) and that the audience is white. (thus, the buffyverse
doesn't seek to address any such issues. cuz whiteness isn't a
colour, it's normality. race only concerns non-white people who
see race everywhere. white people don't see race when they expect
to see, and see whiteness. that's normality.
not that i'm saying that you said this anywhere Cw. but i caught
a faint echo of it in some other posts.
But i don't think that anywhere in the race debate was a demand
that joss do that, more, that it would be nice if he did show
these concerns. it's because you could read the buffyverse as
being predicated on very dangerous ideas. The little town besieged
by the darkness. buffy standing agains thte ugly blood sucking
parasites. the ones who seem to possess every characteristic of
consciousness. the only ones you can't kill are the truly exceptional
who rise above their nature.
if he never wanted to address race, this wasn't a good trope to
pick. cuz it could be read as if he was addressing this issue
all along. that's why it's important. that's why it stings for
people like me.
[> [> [> [> Re: Social activism -- CW, 07:01:15
04/26/04 Mon
Joss has pointed to himself as carrying a socially progressive
message, repeatedly. he should be able to be judged on those terms
without crumpling.
This is exactly the point where we disagree. The problem is that
if a person shows a willingness 'to lead the fight' in one area
you're expecting him to lead the fight in others. You are far
from alone in that expectation. The problem is that the world
is full of issues other than feminism which Joss chose to address
and race which you would be happier if Joss addressed. There are
folks out there just as passionate about animal rights, air quality,
right to life, right for a woman to control her own body, poverty
in the third world, the ethics of eating meat, etc, etc. The list
just on and on. Let Joss fight the battles he wants to fight and
not be unhappy with him for not fighting our own battles.
Not that i'm saying that you said this anywhere Cw. but i caught
a faint echo of it in some other posts
I can't control what you think about me. But it really is the
same problem here as above. I think I've made it clear more than
once that race/ethnicity is a problem on Buffy. Sunnydale high
and UCSD don't look like southern California, small-city schools
and present a false picture. There are too few blacks and asians
for sure, but that's not what's glaringly missing. Until season
seven there were no Hispanics on the show, which is just ridiculous
given the number of Hispanics in the area, and the amount of talented
hispanic actors available in the LA area. Some one from another
part of the coutry may well see more need for African Americans,
Asian Americans or immigrants of various other types on the show.
So must ME carefully hire a balanced mix of races and ethnic backgrounds
to cover all potential audiences, or would it be best to make
an acurate representation of a smaller town in California? If
it were me doing the casting I'd hire a heck of a lot more Hispanics
than ME did. But, I would be as careful about getting the correct
mix of the rest of the races for a southern California school.
I can't swear I would be. I just don't know. After all, the only
girl who ever stood me up on a date was Japanese. I might have
some lingering hatred over that! ;o)
I'm not trying to beat you over the head, but I've seen too many
activists (socialists and communists) who were blind to everything
but their own person agendas. Life is a compromise. Let Joss work
his own compromises. So far you've been pleased with the overall
results haven't you?
[> [> [> [> [> Oops! Dyslexia strikes again!
-- Cactus Watcher, 08:24:02 04/26/04 Mon
But, I would be as careful about getting the correct mix of
the rest of the races for a southern California school.
I meant to ask, "Would I be as careful about getting
the correct mix...?"
Very sorry about that!
[> [> [> [> [> hmmm -- Rahael, 09:35:41
04/26/04 Mon
Let me clarify - are you saying that this is an illegitimate discussion
to have? That we shouldn't discuss this issue in terms of the
Buffyverse?
I don't know what you've argued in the past. I've been on AtPO
for 2 years or so, and while I have general impressions of most
posters, (frx I remember your problems with AtS4, I can't be pinned
down on any other specifics), I can only answer on the substance
of the post above.
Issues about 'prejudice' don't have to be about skin colour. My
most important experience of prejudice has nothing to do with
whiteness.
That's why I've defended Joss repeatedly in the past, to say that
he *does tackle these issues*. Now you may disagree with me. But
I thought BUffy as a character spoke to me, as the person that
I am, agendas and all, than any other tv character I'd come across,
and in specific relation to this issue. There were people who
disagreed with me, from both sides of the debate.
The reason it is crucial to address these issues, as I've said
before is that the Buffyverse could be read in that way to support
'agendas' that are frankly far more disturbing and alarming that
mine will ever be,( no matter how objectionable people on AtPO
find them.) It is important to point out that certain readings
are untrue. It is important to point to where they are wrong.
And authorial intent is important. I want to find evidence where
Joss disputes these dangerous readings. And I do that through
discourse and communication with others.
But I must apologise. You are right in one instance. Whether other
people should discuss this topic here or not, is moot. I certainly
shouldn't be. (And you'll never hear about it again from me, here
or anywhere else)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- CW, 12:57:43
04/26/04 Mon
Please forgive me if I overstated my case. But, you know me well
enough to know I'm not asking you to stop talking about anything.
And it ought to be abundantly clear that I enjoy hearing about
your views and respect you for speaking about them. But, not everyone
is going to agree with our views of the world and the order of
importance we put on things.
On occasion, in my life I've had to be a friend to people whose
views I've found utterly revolting to make some diplomatic headway
on one important issue or another. Finding common ground is about
the only way any of us can understand each other. I'm saying that
as someone who is ready at the drop of the hat to argue either
side of a heck of a lot of tough issues. Why? Because among true
friends sometimes we need to challenge everything we believe in.
Why? Because there is often more to those issues than any of us
individually can fully comprehend at one time. There is no discussion
if everyone simply parrots what the last person said, no matter
how much we may feel the same about things for the moment. Stirring
things up is necessary to keep everybody thinking, and perhaps
willing to accept each others ways of thinking.
I'm one of those people who insists on bringing up what others
have forgotten, and usually don't mind when others do it to me.
If I ever seem to agree with anyone totally on everything, you
can pretty well be certain I'm not being honest with them. What
do you want, a friend who is afraid to tell you what he thinks,
or one who asks you to look a little deeper at everything, even
those things that may be a little painful? Because one way or
the other I'm determined to be a friend to you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> awwwwww -- Rahael,
14:01:10 04/26/04 Mon
No forgiveness needed. I hated the idea that somehow, I had become
perceived as one of those people. I hated the idea that I was
going on and on about stuff my friends didn't want to hear about.
I'm a proud person.
But pride stretches high, and it also snaps easily.
You're free to disagree with me on whatever issue. I'll argue
back, but it's *totally welcome*. I agree with you. True friends
challenge each other. And I'm pretty good at arguing at the drop
of a hat too. (smile)
Thanks for making my evening brighter!
[> [> [> [> Re: Social activism -- Lunasea,
07:39:50 04/26/04 Mon
If you have a problem with me, say so. I have not instructed you
or anyone else "above" or anywhere else. You know my
email address. You know my Yahoo IM name. You know my livejournal.
If you want to do this here on the board so everyone can watch,
I consent.
I just am interested in putting these works into their social
context. not what the author *should* be saying, but what is the
author saying? what are the implications for the entire content
of the piece? these questions arise for me precisely because i
think Btvs has used metaphor to talk about prejudice. so what
happens when the metaphor change
You cannot say what the author is saying. The only way
to know that is to have the same experiences the author has had,
since it is these experiences that inform our interpretation.
The closer those experiences match, the closer to what the author
is saying. You are not discussing what the author is saying.
You are discussing your interpretation of what the author says.
This, to me, is just as fascinating, probably even more fascinating,
as the piece itself.
That is where this debate gets interesting. People are making
pronouncements about the show and what the author is saying,
when really they are just discussing how they see things. My "instructions"
come from how I see the show and what context I think it should
be interpreted in if you want to see what the author is
saying. If you aren't interested in that and only want to talk
about how you see a show, it isn't about what the author is
saying. The author has been removed from the work, which I don't
like doing, but it is a valid way of looking at things. Instead
of looking at something that has been created by someone else,
we are now looking at what we have created.
Problems arise when we forget that we are the ones who are now
the creators and insist that we are talking about what the author
is saying. We have now become the author. This is the type of
ignorance that Zen refers to as the First Creation. From Suzuki-roshi
"There are perhaps three kinds of creation. The first is
to be aware of ourselves after we finish zazen. When we sit we
are nothing, we do not even realize what we are; we just sit.
But when we stand up, we are there! That is the first step in
creation." Keeping this in mind is important and one of the
purposes of meditation.
we should be able to have this debate without the underlying
message that the Buffyverse is white and that the audience is
white.
According to you, the purpose of this discussion is to put the
series in "social context." We should be able to do
this by taking it out of the social context it was written and
viewed? What social context are we trying to understand? Putting
the show in some sort of intellectual vacuum does not place it
into any sort of context it was meant to be in. Instead it becomes
a soap box for people to stand on. Again, this is a valid way
to use the show, but it shouldn't be confused for anything other
than an act of creation. The show makes a wonderful warp for us
to weave ourselves around. The pattern of the tapestry is a reflection
of us.
thus, the buffyverse doesn't seek to address any such issues.
cuz whiteness isn't a colour, it's normality. race only concerns
non-white people who see race everywhere. white people don't see
race when they expect to see, and see whiteness. that's normality.
This is a gross misinterpretation of those "faint echoes."
Joss, nor I, nor many other people see whiteness or normality.
We see humans, humans that have all sorts of things that make
them unique. That is how the world should be. That is how
I was raised. That is the high school I went to in a suburban
neighborhood of Washington, DC that could be called anything but
white. My best friends were a black female and an Indian male.
They weren't black and Indian. They were Deb and Vik. I knew the
racial/ethnic background of my friends, white or of "color"
(white IS a color. It is in my daughter's crayon box) some of
whom had interesting names that I had to learn how to pronounce
and mothers that made amazing food. That isn't what I saw when
I looked at them. I saw friends.
The Buffyverse addresses these issues as it does other social
issues, through the metaphor of demon and by treating the subject
how it should be, namely by even pointing out that Buffy's
assumption that Robin grew up in the "hood" was wrong,
just as Anya's assumptions about men were wrong. Robin is just
a character, not a black character. His race is not important.
That is the goal. At least that is what many racial activists
keep saying. Justice should be color blind.
The power of the slayer is specific type of otherness. If you
want to extrapolate that to race, that is your creation. This
is why you perceive a metaphor shift, when I don't see one. I
see a beautiful message that has been consistent. I see a show
that has changed my life. That was Joss' goal. It wasn't to write
something that people could stick in an intellectual vacuum. It
was to empower the blond girl in the alley. I thank him for doing
that.
[> [> [> Re: One size doesn't qiute fit all. --
Lunasea, 06:02:59 04/26/04 Mon
Buffy's emotions were the fore in LMPTM or else it would have
been called LMMTM. Buffy and Giles interaction was as important
if not more important than Wood/Spike. Without this side of Giles,
it made the interaction one-sided, unlike Wood/Spike. It was cut
for time, not because of thematic resonance. I think it would
have rounded Giles out more and this would have improved the episode.
According to Fury at The Bronze "It was cut mainly because
the first cut of the show was TWELVE MINUTES LONG! But, also because
some people didn't think anyone would be interested in Giles confessing
to killing Ben."
Did Giles know that Ben had betrayed Dawn or did he still see
Ben as an innocent? It wouldn't have made sense for him to "confess"
unless he felt it was something to confess, namely a sin. He is
trying to get Buffy to see that she needs to be willing to do
anything to save the world, such as even kill Dawn. Why would
killing a bad person fit with this? Also, humans aren't to be
killed. They are to be handed over to human civil authorities.
Giles did not have the right to kill a human being.
I do think the man behind blue eyes, the man that was proud of
Buffy for protecting Dawn season 5 would have felt something in
regards to killing Ben. The coldness of Ripper is but one part
of this man. He can still feel something was morally questionable,
but practically required and thus be able to do it. Giles is not
immune to his conscience, which is what makes the hard decisions
hard.
What did happen in LMPTM is related to what happened in The
Gift, namely Giles trying to do something he felt Buffy could
not do for herself. This time Giles reason's were based on Spike's
past behavior, not on what seemed likely in the future. Imagine
if Giles had taken Willow and Xander to the mansion and slain
Angel as soon as he found out he was back in season 3. The situations
were similar, but with Spike Giles felt the fate of the world
might be at stake. I think this weakness in his approach is just
as interesting, if Giles has no remorse over Ben as if he does.
This is a very interesting point, but if Giles had felt that Angel
was still Angelus, the fate of the world was at stake, seeing
as he had just tried to suck it all to hell. Angelus is a much
more dangerous vampire than Spike is. Giles has experienced this
first hand. The difference in this case is that Spike is under
the control of the First. Giles has to be convinced that Spike
must die by Wood. The comparison would be if Xander had been able
to convince Giles that Angel needed to die. Giles reasons weren't
just based on Spike's past behavior, but the present situation
of him being controlled by the First and Spike's unwillingness
to deal with this.
Spike was a danger because he was being controlled. In some ways
this made him an innocent. Giles wasn't saying he needed to be
killed because of his past crimes. He was saying this innocent
was a danger, just like Ben was because he carried Glory or Dawn
was because she was the Key. Giles could say that he didn't want
to do this, but had to, thus saying that he understands what Buffy
is going through.
I think the best echo of how Giles sees Spike is done by Buffy
herself. People are allies or enemies. If you are a danger, you
are an enemy. That is how he sees Spike. Since Spike is controlled
by the First, Giles sees him as enemy. Buffy still sees Spike
as friend. However, when it comes to her human friends, since
they are questioning her judgment, such as when it comes to Spike,
she no longer sees them as supporting her. She even comes out
and says that Spike is the only one that has her back.
It was an interesting episode with interesting themes that seem
to get overwhelmed by the righteous revenge of Wood and the lack
of remorse on Spike's part. I think the addition of Giles' confession
would have gone a long way to correcting this.
[> [> [> [> Re: One size doesn't qiute fit all.
-- CW, 08:11:14 04/26/04 Mon
Did Giles know that Ben had betrayed Dawn or did he still see
Ben as an innocent?
Do you honestly believe Dawn did not tell the rest of them the
whole story at some point during the summer after Buffy's death?
Do you not think she would ask about Ben's where abouts sooner
or later? Do you not think she would be relieved on hearing/seeing
he was dead? Do you not think this would make an impression on
the others?
It wouldn't have made sense for him to "confess"
unless he felt it was something to confess, namely a sin. He is
trying to get Buffy to see that she needs to be willing to do
anything to save the world, such as even kill Dawn. Why would
killing a bad person fit with this? Also, humans aren't to be
killed. They are to be handed over to human civil authorities.
Giles did not have the right to kill a human being.
Sin is a religious concept that depends largely on the beliefs
of the person in question. You see Giles as having sinned. You
are justified in that with respect to your beliefs. But, does
Giles have your same belief system? The law allows another person
to be killed if that person presents an immediate mortal danger
to another, the other's family or for that matter just about anyone
else. Why? Because there is a general sense that stopping someone
from killing someone else is not immoral even at the cost of a
life!
You are correct saying Giles would probably have been arrested,
since there was no immediate danger. But, intellectually can you
not see that the potential danger was so great in Giles' mind
that he might feel no remorse over it, just as if he'd killed
Ben, let's say, when Ben would have had an axe actually hovering
over Buffy's head?
Clearly, killing Dawn in The Gift would have been another matter
entirely. Still, you have to understand that no matter how morally
wrong it would have been, it was a sane solution. If Giles had
killed Dawn, I'd expect him to spend the rest of his life regretting
it, even if seemed like the right thing at the time. Giles might
have twinges of guilt over Ben, but, I really can't see it haunting
him.
It was an interesting episode with interesting themes that
seem to get overwhelmed by the righteous revenge of Wood and the
lack of remorse on Spike's part.
This is clearly a difference of opinion between you and ME. For
ME Wood and Spike's feelings were the central issue, hence the
title LMPTM. They can't over emphasisze it if it's the central
theme! You should complain if side issues get overplayed in a
story, not the main theme of an episode. It's fine that you thought
a better story would have been Giles' agony over killing Ben.
It's fine that you may have thought your idea have would fit into
the series as a whole better than LMPTM. But, by default ME gets
its way.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: One size doesn't qiute fit
all. -- Lunasea, 09:38:21 04/26/04 Mon
Do you honestly believe Dawn did not tell the rest of them
the whole story at some point during the summer after Buffy's
death?
Honestly, yes. I believe Dawn was so distraught that she couldn't
bear to think, let alone talk about, the events that led up to
her sister's death. I don't think she wanted to talk about her
responsibility or role in these events. I don't think she wanted
to relive these events.
Sin is a religious concept that depends largely on the beliefs
of the person in question. You see Giles as having sinned.
I prefer to think of sin as a moral concept in this context. What
matters is what Giles thinks. "She's a hero, you see. She's
not like us." A hero is the highest standard of human beings.
This highest standard can't take a human life. By elevating Buffy
and her beliefs to the standard of hero, Giles is saying that
what he does is morally wrong, even if necessary.
But, intellectually can you not see that the potential danger
was so great in Giles' mind that he might feel no remorse over
it, just as if he'd killed Ben, let's say, when Ben would have
had an axe actually hovering over Buffy's head?
I can say that can't you see how even though he sees it as a practical
necessity, that his conscience would have a problem with it? It
doesn't become a great act, unless he is conflicted on some level.
Instead he was just taking out the trash.
Clearly, killing Dawn in The Gift would have been another matter
entirely. Still, you have to understand that no matter how morally
wrong it would have been, it was a sane solution. If Giles had
killed Dawn, I'd expect him to spend the rest of his life regretting
it, even if seemed like the right thing at the time. Giles might
have twinges of guilt over Ben, but, I really can't see it haunting
him.
He still would have "twinges" and those can't be just
dismissed. Head and heart don't always agree. Just because something
is sane, doesn't mean we wish we didn't have to do it.
For ME Wood and Spike's feelings were the central issue, hence
the title LMPTM.
Lies My PARENTS Told Me (not mother). The Buffy of a story is
also important. The central issue wasn't their feelings, but the
LIE My Parents Told Me. That lie won't be resolved until "Chosen."
Giles' guilt over Ben wasn't the center of the episode, nor should
it have been. It would have been an important step toward undoing
that lie, rather than just go from black to white. It would have
helped keep the focus on the lies.
ME does gets its way, except it has to exist within a time framework
and 12 minutes had to be cut. It isn't my idea. It is ME's.
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