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Archives 10 Was anyone else crying at the end of tonight's episode? That ending was beautiful! -- SS, 19:18:26 04/21/04 Wed


Replies:

[> No, but I was close - SPOILERY COMMENTS -- Sofdog, 19:21:09 04/21/04 Wed

I'm sure Connor had his memory back in the fight. And I'm sure that he appreciated Angel's sacrifice. Sadder than "Stella Dallas," it was.

[> [> Ah, c'mon you guys! (SPOILERY COMMENT) -- Old One, 19:23:24 04/21/04 Wed

Surely he was referring to Holtz?

;o) (j/k)

[> [> "Stella Dallas"? -- skeeve, 09:07:58 04/22/04 Thu


[> [> [> Oh, it's a classic... -- Sofdog, 09:39:25 04/22/04 Thu

Based on a novel by Olive Higgins Prouty, it was remade twice, the last being Bette Midler's "Stella" in the late '80s.

Barbara Stanwyck's 1937 remake is the enduring version. A low-class woman marries a high society guy. She doesn't conform to his world so they divorce. She's devoted to their daughter, giving her the best of everything. Eventually as the girl matures, Stella realizes that her own crass style is holding her back. So she sends the girl to live with her father and his blue-blood wife. The classic scene is when the girl is having her society wedding and Stella is in the throng of people staring in through from the street.

Heartbreaking sacrifice.

[> Drew Goddard rocks my world! But I have one big non-spoilery question... -- Pony, 19:29:12 04/21/04 Wed

What did Masq think of the episode???

;)

[> [> I must say Masq (and all other you-know-who lovers...) (spoilers for "origins") -- Nino, 20:16:02 04/21/04 Wed

Connor was surpisingly cool tonight. And not annoying at all. And without all the angst, dare I say...cute? This ep might make me look more kindly on the Connor of old when I'm watching reruns...i guess i can't blame him for being annoying, he had it rough. i mentioned he was cute tonight...right?


ps...anyone else think Illirya was going to know something was up when he/she/it met Connor?

[> [> [> Re: I must say Masq (and all other you-know-who lovers...) (spoilers for "origins") -- Evan, 20:52:32 04/21/04 Wed

Yeah, right when we found out in Shells that Illyria had some of Fred's memories I thought that was gonna tie in to this story line. But I guess not. Well, not really.

[> [> [> [> Illyria and Fred's memories (spoilers: Origin) -- Vickie, 14:33:56 04/22/04 Thu

We know (if we trust her statement) that Illyria had some of Fred's leftover memories before this episode. In this episode, she said she had the revised memories--not what actually happened but the results of the spell-deal with W&H.

Now that the box of memories has been broken in her presence, does she have both sets of memories, just as Fred would have if she were alive?

[> [> [> [> [> I'm pretty sure she does... (spoilers for "Origin") -- Rob, 16:13:47 04/22/04 Thu

Although I'd have to rewatch the episode to get an exact quote, I think she said as much in her last scene, alone with Wes, speaking of the "new" memories she now has. Also, maybe an indication that Fred is still in there somewhere? Well, I can hope at least. :-)

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> the question is... (spoilers, "hole in the world" through "origin") -- anom, 11:00:30 04/23/04 Fri

....did Illyria get a complete set of Fred's missing memories "back," unlike the "fragments" that were discharged from Fred's collapsing brain? Maybe it'll be harder for her to "push reality out of your mind" than for Wes, if she only has shreds of the false memories to pull over the true ones. But it may not matter as much to her; I think Wes was mostly talking about himself & what he needs to do. On the other hand, Illyria's having more complete memories (if she does) of 1 span of time than of the rest of Fred's life may cast a different light on those fragments. If so, maybe there's more of Fred in there than there was before...although I didn't see anything in that last scene to support that.

[> [> [> Re: I must say Masq (and all other you-know-who lovers...) (spoilers for "origins") -- Masq, 14:17:26 04/22/04 Thu

Connor was surpisingly cool tonight. And not annoying at all. And without all the angst, dare I say...cute? This ep might make me look more kindly on the Connor of old when I'm watching reruns...i guess i can't blame him for being annoying, he had it rough. i mentioned he was cute tonight...right?

See, you had to see the sweetness underneath all the hostility to "get" Connor, at least before Peace Out. He's always been cute. But you had to hurt for his angst, and wish the best for him futily. For me, I came at it from a parent's point of view. I identified with Angel, and Connor was the child I was never supposed to have. And I hurt. And his smile when he did smile lit up my heart.

And last night, at least before the memory box was broken, I felt uncomfortable with Connor. It didn't seem like it was really Connor. I realized I *like* him snarky and bratty. That's my Connor. That's why I always loved Connor.

[> [> [> [> I agree with you Masq.....(spoilers for "origins") -- angel's nibblet, 02:17:58 04/24/04 Sat

He's always been cute! Tonight he was even cuter! I enjoyed happy!Connor, but knew deep down (heh) it couldn't last. Not really.

See, you had to see the sweetness underneath all the hostility to "get" Connor, at least before Peace Out. He's always been cute. But you had to hurt for his angst, and wish the best for him futily. For me, I came at it from a parent's point of view. I identified with Angel, and Connor was the child I was never supposed to have. And I hurt. And his smile when he did smile lit up my heart.

For me, Connor was the me that was. The me that raged against my parents (even if not alwaysas outwardly as Connor, I'm more of a bottler :-) for failing me. The me that used to despair of ever finding my place in the world, that felt as if she could never make a meaningful connection with anyone. When he raged against Angel, it was me raging, his pain was mine. When he smiled, it warmed my heart and I couldn't help smiling with him.

The Connor getting into the elevator is the me that is now. Moving away from his father, finally growing up and finding his own place in the world. That elevator takes him out of the world of angsty, insecure adolescence, to whatever lies beyond (don't ask me, I've yet to find out!).

Connor at the end, with the memories back, made me choke up. He was still the Connor we knew and (some of us) loved, but he was finally able to find his peace, to find his place. He was able to look back on all his angst, all his pain and still be able to see that Angel had always loved him and had always done everything he could for him, even if it failed. My boy's all grown up *sob*!

The ending was both heartbreaking and perfect. I wouldn't have wanted it to end any other way.

'Scuse me, I think this is my floor ;-)

PS: You have to admire my restraint in the use of the word 'lift'!!!!

[> [> [> [> [> Connor's initiation -- Masq, 06:50:55 04/24/04 Sat

That elevator takes him out of the world of angsty, insecure adolescence, to whatever lies beyond (don't ask me, I've yet to find out!).... My boy's all grown up *sob*!

This sort of ties into the interpretation of Connor's duel with Sahjhan as a "rite/ritual/trial of manhood". I was kind of *irked* by how they set up the big show down between Connor and Sahjhan. It was so artificial. Instead of happening spontaneously in some dark alley somewhere, Connor's father/guide sends Connor into a room where Sahjhan awaits in a bottle, then Angel stands by not interfering while Connor is required to uncap the bottle and fight the demon.

But if you look at it as sort of ancient "ritual of manhood" fight, the artificiality of it makes more sense.

And what's interesting is that the NewMemories!Connor is failing the test. He's getting the whup beat out of him by Sahjhan. It is only when his real childhood/adolescent memories are returned that he rises to the challenge and passes the test.

Adulthood is really about integrating the past with the future. Taking what we were, what we are, what will happen to us in the future, and creating an adult person from that.

[> [> Sigh! I cried all right (spoilers: Origins) -- Tyreseus (among the die-hard Connor fans), 23:44:44 04/21/04 Wed

It was a perfect closure for the character in my POV. I'll second the Drew Goddard is amazing notion.

I've been chatting tonight (which I don't do that often) and anom made an excellent point. He said that Connor couldn't fulfill his destiny until he really knew who he was. In the moment when his memories return (fantastic acting by VK by the way) he had a choice he never really had before - to accept who he was and move on or to keep blaming others. I think he made the choice to grow up and accept the things he couldn't change. That empowered him to take responsibilty for his own destiny and move forward.

It could also be a metaphor for the whole AI team. They've spent the entire season floundering in purpose and emotional uncertainty - even Cordy's crystal clear message to Angel hasn't hit home with him yet. Nor did Lindsey's comments last week. They need to start being the good guys, facing the truth about their situation.

I think Connor finally "got" the MC Escher speech. Having a set of conflicting memories must really put an Escher perspective on things. The ability to see more than one side to things... the strength to know that the world is an ugly place, to acknowledge that, and to do the best you can to make it better. Connor chose, tonight, to let go of the past (hint, hint Angel, Gunn & Wes) and to protect the people he loves.

Based on the comments in the chat room, I'm guessing that a lot of people wanted Angel to say something to Connor at the end - "I love you" or "I'm proud of you" or something. Angel said that to Connor often enough before, I think Connor knows it now and his final words to Angel were an recognition of that. Sure, I'm fanwanking a bit here, but I would speculate that the stage they've reached is tenuous but real. Too much emotional garbage may cause it to break. Best to leave it alone.

I think Wesley would agree. The return of his memories helped him find some measure of closure, too. Now he understands what holding on to the past can do to a person. Now he understands why sometimes you just have to let things go.

[> [> [> Re: Sigh! I cried all right (spoilers: Origins) -- Masq who wailed her lungs out until her cats bit her, 14:09:48 04/22/04 Thu

among the die-hard Connor fans

Yes, I remember. You were the one who had a thing for his hands. And in "Inside Out" no less. That's die-hard!

[> [> [> [> Who, Me? -- Tyreseus, 15:28:57 04/23/04 Fri

I had to check the archives to remember what you were referencing and, um, now I'm going to pretend like I don't know what you're talking about. :)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Who, Me? -- Masq, 16:56:58 04/23/04 Fri

That's why we have the archives. So we can never live down our embarassing moments!

[> Yep. And on the second viewing as well! (Kind of a sap here) -- Dariel, 19:49:13 04/21/04 Wed


[> I know I was! Beautiful ending, beautiful episode. -- Rob, 22:20:03 04/21/04 Wed


[> I don't cry. It's a defect. But it was a great ending. -- deeva, 22:27:59 04/21/04 Wed


[> [> Definitely got all choked up. Smiled through the tears, though. -- Jane, 18:01:25 04/22/04 Thu


[> I cried for an hour -- Masq, 09:10:28 04/22/04 Thu

But then I assumed Connor walked away without his old memories. I'm still not convinced he didn't.

And the sobs were about 50% relief that the episode was better than I'd feared it would be.

[> [> Did he remember? Or didn't he? (spoilers: Origin) -- Vickie, 10:10:30 04/22/04 Thu

I'm surprised so many people think that Connor did not regain his memories. I'm convinced that he did, and if I'm in denial I'll thank you not to spoil a perfectly good illusion.

When the Orlon window broke (winner of the worst gadget name ever award?), Connor broke Sahjian's (sp?) hold, performed one of those patented Angel-lineage dodge-roll-grab weapon moves, and fought like the Destroyer we learned to love toward the end of Season 3. When he turned to face Angel, the look on his face made me think "Oh yeah, this is the kid who ALWAYS saw Jasmine's true face last year. He can play poker with the BEST."

He maintained his "normal kid" persona and used the modern jargon with which the reality shift apparently endowed him. Then he told Angel, without saying it out loud, that he understood the decision his father had made. Maybe even appreciated it.

That's my version, and I'm sticking to it.

[> [> [> i think he did (spoilers for origin; also aynohyeb & reprise)) -- anom, going o/t for this thread, but in a good way (i hope), 16:02:57 04/22/04 Thu

"I'm surprised so many people think that Connor did not regain his memories. I'm convinced that he did...."

I haven't had much time to read the board (hope I'm not repeating what others have said), so I didn't realize there was even a question about this. I agree w/you, Ann, for the reasons you state. Plus, there were tears on his face after the memory montage ended; what other reason could there be for them?

I was saying in chat last night (yes, eventually a few other folks showed up/managed to get in) that a major message of that scene was that you have to know who you really are before you can fulfill your destiny. I'm sure Angel was hoping Connor could fulfill the prophecy & kill Sahjhan without having to regain his Origin-al memories, but maybe on some level he knew what had to happen. After all, he wasn't that far away from Wes when he smashed the window, & we all know how fast he can move when he really wants to.

So does this mean Angel made the right decision after all? Did Connor's false but happy memories give him the foundation he needed to cope w/the true ones when they returned? Or--maybe it's more like and/or--did he know on some level what the truth was, or at least that what he knew wasn't really true? Were his memories restored from outside, or did they surface from "underneath"? Both possibilities could help explain his apparent quick adjustment (plus cjl's speculation about what Connor learned in his tour of W&H in the "Supermoppet" thread--which might even fit in w/the "underneath" theory; to quote Oz, "It explains a lot").

I don't like the idea that Angel's decision was a good one, but it may be an example of something I was hoping to write about in Rufus' now archived "philosophizing on Underneath" thread: Escher patterns of good & evil. The same action may have both good & evil effects, intersecting w/each other, some of which we may never know about. (Or not for a long time: remember Angel's finding the same bookstore owner he'd dealt w/in Are You Now or Have You Ever Been decades later in Reprise & learning he'd changed the man's life, even though he'd ended up telling the Thesulac demon, "take them all"? Um, & even though Darla ends the man's life moments later?) Maybe Angel's decision was good for Connor but bad for Wes--& certainly for Fred. Its effects on Gunn seem more ambiguous. (Hm...who gets their memories back & who doesn't, & who even knows about it, could also form an Escher pattern.)

"Then he told Angel, without saying it out loud, that he understood the decision his father had made. Maybe even appreciated it."

Yes. I liked that. I think it's a sign of a new maturity in him--he certainly looked more grown-up (& not just because of the chin-stubble!) as he waited for the elevator, ready to leave Angel behind, but leaving him w/something to hold onto. The line about protecting your family sounded to me like a gift to the father he learned that from.

"When the Orlon window broke (winner of the worst gadget name ever award?)...."

Heehee! I did a double-take when I heard that. But in a way, it makes sense. As long as the Orlon window remains whole, it preserves the, yes, synthetic memories that Vail had built. There's a button: "Why get real when artificial is so much easier to keep clean?" Nice, clean, happy, (brace yourselves) paneless artificial memories....

[> [> [> [> Re: i think he did (spoilers for origin; also aynohyeb & reprise)) -- Rob, 16:22:11 04/22/04 Thu

So does this mean Angel made the right decision after all? Did Connor's false but happy memories give him the foundation he needed to cope w/the true ones when they returned.

I have reconciled it as this: Had Connor's memory not been restored, Angel's decision would have been wrong. The fact that Connor's memory is restored, though, gives him back his free will: he is now given the choice to leave his family and help Angel fight evil or return to his current life. In a way, then, the false memories can be viewed as a sort of therapy, the very therapy he needed so desperately at the end of the fourth season. So, if I'm explaining this adequately enough (and please tell me if I'm not, because I know I'm making sense to myself, but can't be sure if I am to anyone else!), what I'm getting at is that the decision itself may have been wrong or at least misguided, but it does help him cope with his bad memories once they are restored, and helps him finally become a complete human being. I think the episode is saying that it was important for him to know the truth, but that he was able to cope with what had broken him before due to the 19 years of happy memories he now has.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Orlon Window (spoilers for origin) -- Ann, 18:37:08 04/22/04 Thu

I just realized that the Orlon window was made of tortoise shell. It is often used in votives and is quite beautiful. We have a christmas tree star that is made from it.

A tortoise that can hid in its shell away from the world and its memories.

Wow the light gives us so much meaning.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Orlon Window (spoilers for origin) -- Jane, 15:53:47 04/23/04 Fri

Lovely image, Ann. I like the idea that though the memories of Connor were hidden in the shell of the spell, they still leaked out until the shell broke. I have the last scene in mind too, of Angel standing in the doorway,(the frame of the shell) with the light behind him, as Connor walks back into his life.
Origins: SPOILERS tonights episode -- Ann, 20:14:04 04/21/04 Wed

Well, sentimental me. I could not have asked for more. And yes I teared up. Connor makes the good choice and does what he can for his family when he is given the chance. Yeah Connor. We are all thinking of Masq! Connor lovers united and I include myself in that group. :-)

But to the beginning first. "Hi Dad". Not initially intended for Angel but the fantasy is expressed and revealed in a father's smile. "That was awesome" Connor says. Everything a dad could want his son to say. This experience was the first for this father and son I think. A misture of pride, love and a little fear. Connor moves right in with the gang. The way it should have been is born by an accident. But in fact it is a blackmail situation. Vale (or veil, as he seems to be able to hide and build and sway reality) gives Connor his memories. He in some ways is the father as well. This asks the question of what exactly does make the man? Will Connor, because he falls into place at AI ever so easily, be a murderer again whether or not he regains the memories he has lost? The essence question again. But Connor learns a lot from his dad and can live with what he learns. He will do what he can to protect his family. This is one of the most selfless decisions ever made on this show. He does it knowing the full consequences. This is something Angel has dealt with and has not done it so successfully every time. Connor's decision is to live and love seeing the full picture. I am sure some are wondering about this fantasy come true ending but it does fulfill one of Angel's fantasies. I've got to give him that.

When you lose a child, your fantasy dream child is ended for good. What might have been become mute but it also plays a large role, because that is all you have. I've often wondered about Angel's fantasies about his relationship with his son. Would Connor be part of AI? Would they pal around? Well tonight we see that may have been entirely the case. You don't have the reality, so you think of what might have been. Milestones are wrenching. But in this story, Angel gets his son back, what might have been becomes very real. Especially with Connor being able to handle the truth. Now maybe Angel will be able to live with himself because his son can. The mirrored reflection of yourself on your child's face is overwhelming and shows the truth. I think Angel glimpsed this tonight.

Meanwhile Gunn is getting his heart ripped out again and again. But he too makes the choice for himself. He finds the light (bulb) in the darkness and chooses it over and over. Angel, if his past choices are revealed, fears that his heart will be ripped out too. The darkness overcomes the light is his fear. And we viewers hearts have been ripped out by the cancellation piled on the floor in the basement.

Wes is struggling to find the truth. It is handed to him in the form of the Orlon (sp?) Window. He makes his choice to have his memories returned. But his speech about false memories helping one endure was profound and touching. Reveals what he has been going though for some time. Illyria, who is watching so closely, really wants to understand what she is seeing. Just like scientist Fred I think. She sees the hole in Fred's memories, which reveals the truth. The hole, the absence, and its presence. Too cool. And she kicks butt. She is like Connor in that her youthfulness, having just been born, despite being an old one allows her to see so much. Those blue eyes do see truth. Connor (with his big eyes) gets that in the end too. Children often can see what the parents can't.

Other things
-They all made choices for themselves tonight. I like that very much.
- Look in the background all through the episode. There are stuffed dummies for fighting, masks, symbols of bodies and faces. There are so many allusions to the falseness of the lives being lived. Connor decides he doesn't want to do the fighting thing. He doesn't want to just be one of those "dummies". Maybe that is why Angel's jacket looked so tight? Intentional perhaps.
-Vale was on "life support" just as Connor false life needed to be supported by magic and agreements signed in blood.
-Spike and a clipboard. Two words that I thought I would never put together. He has a mission. He has a role in AI. Sort of like a lab assistant to Illyria's scientist. Still getting the stuffing kicked out of him. And by a girl. A hot one according to Connor. He likes the outfit.
-Petri dish as metaphor for the looking, the examining that needs to be done by all. The agar used in W&H is pretty sour and it doesn't grow much other than mutant manipulating evil.

(Please excuse the fragmented sentences as I am reveling in this episode as there is just so much goodness to contemplate.)

Replies:

[> Re: Origins: SPOILERS tonights episode -- Evil Lawyer, 20:27:06 04/21/04 Wed

I lurk. I never, ever post. But I have to make an exception to ask my burning question. If the destruction of the Orlon box brought back everyone's memories -- Connor's, Wes's, Angel's, Fred's/Illyria's -- how come it did not bring back the memories of Connor's replacement parents? Connor's and Angel's exchange about what he will tell his parents pretty much implies that THEY don't know about the memory wipe/change. And indeed, if they did, how could Connor "protect" them? So, obviously, their memories were not restored. But how does this work?

[> [> Re: Origins: SPOILERS tonights episode -- Evan, 20:59:02 04/21/04 Wed

Vale mentioned that it brings back the memories of those who are in its vicinity when it gets broken, not everyone. So, Lorne and Gunn (sort of) still have the memory wipe too.

[> [> [> Gunn's box -- skeeve, 09:20:35 04/22/04 Thu

It occurs to me that breaking a box near Gunn
might allow him to escape along with those who
bring the box.

Also, Illyria might be able to rescue Gunn by herself.
She can dimension travel under her own steam.

[> [> Re: Origins: SPOILERS tonights episode -- Tyreses, 00:25:16 04/22/04 Thu

I agree with Evan. The box had to be in close proximity, which is why Angel was unsure until the end of the episode if Connor had his memories back or not. Maybe Connor had been far enough away, maybe not.

Unless we're shown or told differently in upcoming episodes, I think we'll have to assume only Angel, Wes and Illyia know the truth - and of the three, I think only Illyria is likely to tell the others.

My question is, why did the Senior Partners leave physical records of the contract in the building? That's like begging to be caught. And Lorne knows something happened the day they joined W&H - he was with Wes when they found the payment info for the major mojo. If his memories weren't returned, will he ask what happened with the case? Maybe he's too far into his depression to care (I noticed that he never volunteered to read Connor - I kept wondering during the scene if he would suggest it and how Angel would get out of that).
Smile Time - A Hole In The World - Shells - Underneath - Origins -- Evan, 21:04:16 04/21/04 Wed

Best 5 episode run of Angel ever?

The only ones challenging it in my opinion are maybe...
WitW - Couplet - Loyalty - Sleep Tight - Forgiving
or SHP - TMB - Sacrifice - Peace Out - Home

But if next week's episode is great, then we'll definitely have the best 6 episode run ever.
Deals with the devil...a short, if rambling, lovefest for Gunn (spoilers AtS5.18 "Origins") -- Random, 22:58:27 04/21/04 Wed

There are moments which define us, moments where we quietly cross the threshold to heroism. For me, the most profound moment of this episode wasn't Connor's final scene and his line about what his father did for him (though I really loved that), but the moment when Gunn put that amulet back around his neck.

Only a little thing, Marcus says. Just one little thing and we'll help you.

One point AtS is stressing lately is the power of little things. The danger of a pen stroke on a contract, the easing of a box through customs. A few sparks of Fred's old personality and a physical resemblance makes it impossible for Wes to turn Illyria away. The apocalypse is not some great dramatic surge of destruction, but a grinding, almost-imperceptible force slowly enveloping the AI gang. A small box contains an entire lifetime of memories.

It is a lesson Angel learned back in Season 2 with his epiphany, and a lesson he has all-but-forgotten. The little things matter. The initial growth of power and influence that accompanied their takeover of W&H hid a terrible truth: when dealing with the devil, the little details matter. Contracts hold hidden clauses, small print. Attention is paid to every little aspect of their interactions. Gunn signs a peice of paper and suddenly Fred is annihilated, replaced by an ancient demon. He mouths the impotent words of regret, the useless explanations about how it was just a little thing, a legal maneuver.

His defining moment wasn't his choice to stay. Guilt and regret shackled him, I think. He was freeing Lindsay to help save the world, but he was also punishing himself. He was voluntarily making a choice that Angel forced on him -- he chose amnesia. Agony, yes, but also forgetfulness.

But in that moment when Marcus offered him a form of salvation, I believe he made a choice far more difficult. He had experienced the torment of the hell-dimension, begged for mercy. And mercy came...for just a small price. Gunn, however, had truly learned his lesson: there are no small prices for large gains. If he doesn't pay, someone will. This was a moment that defined him, and one that clearly showed he could stand equal to any real hero, by simply saying no.

Replies:

[> Atonement and letting go (spoilers AtS5.18 "Origins" and a small bit about next week's teaser) -- Tyreseus, 00:12:20 04/22/04 Thu

But in that moment when Marcus offered him a form of salvation, I believe he made a choice far more difficult. He had experienced the torment of the hell-dimension, begged for mercy. And mercy came...for just a small price. Gunn, however, had truly learned his lesson: there are no small prices for large gains. If he doesn't pay, someone will. This was a moment that defined him, and one that clearly showed he could stand equal to any real hero, by simply saying no.

Very eloquently put and I'm not disagreeing that what Gunn did (refusing to compromise) was admirable, but I'm not sure it qualifies as completely admirable, either.

One of the ongoing themes of Angel has always been atonement. Angel's never-ending quest to make up for the evil he did, Wes in Season 4 fighting his way back from his own terible sin, even Darla's last moments... they all reflect the idea of making good for your past mistakes. But I think the message of this episode isn't about suffering for your past, it's about accepting it and letting it go.

Connor had the strength (with the return of his real memories) to let go of his past. The truth of those decisions wasn't diminished, but he made a choice to move forward despite them.

Angel, Wes, Spike, Lorne... all of them have things about their past that haunt them, circumstances about their present they don't like, and no clear idea of how to change things in the future. In next week's episode, I get the (unspoiled) impression that the plot will feature time very heavily. But most of us don't get the luxury of having visions of the future or prophecies to guide us. The only thing to do is make change happen in our present and hope it works out.

Gunn needed to learn the lesson Connor did. While his unwillingness to strike a deal with the devil is wonderful, he won't be able to grow as a person, improve his life or make amends if he can't accept and own his past, then let it go as unchangable. He's not much of a hero now - trapped in a repeating loop of torture and pain - but he could be. Making amends is about suffering in purgatory (which Gunn is doing), its about learning from your mistakes and resolving not to make them again (which Gunn did). Being a hero (and excuse me for just having just read a dose of Joseph Campbell) is about bringing that enlightnement, that divine gift, that boon of knowledge back to his society to set things right. Until Gunn is ready to return to the world - as one who sees the world as it is, but lives the way it should be - he's not a hero, yet. He's on the path, but not at the destination.

Tyreseus

[> Re: Deals with the devil...a short, if rambling, lovefest for Gunn (spoilers AtS5.18 "Origins") -- heywhynot, 06:34:26 04/22/04 Thu

It is so true about the little things this season. What is the favorite way of describing Chaos Theory? A butterfly in Africa flapping its wings can cause a hurricane to form or not form. Talk about the little affecting the big picture.
Illyria's Loyalty (Spoilers through "Origins") -- Tyreses, 00:38:11 04/22/04 Thu

Not to distract from any important Connor talk, but I wanted to throw this out there.

I think we learned a lot more about Illyria tongiht. Specifically, I'm intrigued by the way she seems to follow Wes around and support him. She chose to help Wes confront Angel about the mindwipe, even though she didn't understand why it was important to him. She seems content to follow him (despite her opinions) wherever he goes.

But, I think we'd be wrong to read loyalty or even dependance into it. Her comment to Spike ("I like hurting you") affirms for me that she is evil. Sure, everyone enjoys a snarky comment about how much fun it is to beat up Spike, but should they be so blasé about her enjoyment of inflicting pain? If they learned nothing else about her during the tests with Spike, they should have caught that. She is a creature of violence, a thing that enjoys causing pain and suffering. There is triumph and pride(?) in her voice when she angrily tells Angel that Wes no longer follows him - she wants Wes to follow her path, a path of retribution and anger.

I wonder if she isn't deliberately trying to remove Wes from Angel's family by sowing or cultivating seeds of doubt, anger, and mistrust. I don't think we can assume that her questions to Wes about why he follows Angel are simply naive queries about a world she doesn't understand. Perhaps she understands more than she lets on.

Tyreseus

Replies:

[> However.... -- Briar Rose, 02:17:34 04/22/04 Thu

If the act of enjoying hurting Spike was all that was required to designate someone as "evil", then Buffy (especially in season 6!) and Xander, Riley and Angel and tons of others that have beat up on Spike with relish are all "evil" as well.

Of course Illyria has a dark side... Everyone does in r/l or screen life. But does that one trait make someone automatically evil?

And if enjoying hurting someone is eveil, (not Spike - just anyone/thing in general) then almost every one in the Joss-verse is evil.

I think we have to wait to see if Illyria is "evil" or simply a very primitive and confused being.

[> [> Agrees -- KdS, 04:26:42 04/22/04 Thu

It's a running and possibly revealing phenomenon in Joss's work how many of his sympathetic characters have barely-hidden sadistic tendencies - Angel, Wesley and Mal Raynolds are just the most blatant and unambiguous examples. The question is can you restrain those tendencies and not express them in an immoral way?

[> [> Re: However.... -- Alistair, 14:19:54 04/22/04 Thu

Can we truly conclude that Illyria is evil based on the side of her that we have seen so far? From what is known of the Old Ones, at least if Illyria is a prime example of them when they ruled the Earth, they enjoyed torment and suffering, and warring, they warred as humans would breathe. They did however have structure and order. Illyria's temple was huge and a true symbol of her power. She was feared (for her power) and beloved(for reasons not yet known, unless again it was her power) as few were. The Old Ones clearly did not consider inferior forms of life to be important. Are humans evil for enslaving other animals? When humans waged horrible wars against each other, they did not count the number of horses or dogs killed in the process. To Illyria, humans are mortal animals, beings who would die anyway, beings without power. They are nothing to her (or were nothing, before she was resurrected in the body of a human). She was a powerful monarch and warrior, she lived seven lives at once, she was power and the ecstasy of death, she was god to a god. Clearly humans mean nothing compared to her. If relativism is to be used then Illyria is very morally ambiguous. She respects beauty (as she spoke of visiting worlds of unspeakable beauty, and was struck to speak of the worlds of great torment). She is just very different from humans, she comes from a time when humans were nothing.

The "white hats" of the Buffyverse seem to intent on labelin g their enemies as evil. Vampires are demons who set up shop in the body of the person they possess (but we have seen much evidence to the contrary). Demons are all evil, demons should be killed. The Old Ones are waiting to unleash hell on Earth. But what if the Old Ones couldn't care less about humanity. What if these apocalypses which are supposed to bring them all back are just engineered by their progeny on Earth who think their mission is to bring the demons back. The old ones have had millions of years to enjoy their reign over countless demon dimensions, why would they be so interested in Earth. Illyria is because she reigned there, her army was on Earth, but still she was a multidimensional entity, and perhaps there are temples across dimensions which still worship her.

Evil? Perhaps by our limited definitions. . . but perhaps not even as evil as the humans on this Earth.

[> Re: Illyria's Loyalty (Spoilers through "Origins") -- Corwin of Amber, 09:20:31 04/22/04 Thu

Ilyria is a warrior. Like most of that vocation - like Angel and Spike, in fact - she enjoys the physicality of combat, in a contest against another warrior. She said "I enjoy hurting you!", with a big grin on her face, a taunt. This was a sparring match. If Ilyria truly wished to hurt Spike, she could have killed or maimed him easily.

[> [> Hangin It Up -- Joyce, 15:14:48 04/22/04 Thu

After last night's episode of ANGEL, I've decided to end my viewing of Season 5. That's it for me. When the season first started, I was in great anticipation on how ME would resolve the issues of S4's finale and Spike's move to the show. The first half of the season, aside from one or two episodes, did not disappoint me at all. I really enjoyed it. But things went downhill in the second half, especially from "A Hole in the World" until now. Some of the episodes have been outstanding, but I realized that I do not like how the season's direction was going. ANGEL was fast becoming the THE ILLYRIA SHOW, and I could see that Amy Acker was taking over the show from David Boreanaz. The Shanshu prophecy arc was discarded. The mindwipe arc seems to be ending in some kind of anti-climax and Whedon seems fixated with the Fred/Illyria character.

So, I'm hanging it up. "Origins" will be the last ANGEL episode I will view. I hope that the rest of you will enjoy the remaining season.

[> [> [> Hmmm. -- Old One, 19:13:16 04/22/04 Thu

Very strange reaction, I'd say.

Does that mean "you" won't be posting any more?

[> [> [> We haven't really had that much Illyria, though -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:46:22 04/22/04 Thu

She has appeared in four episodes so far: "Hole in the World", "Shells", "Underneath", and "Origin". Of these, only "Shells" had the character of Illyria playing a significant role. In "A Hole in the World", she was actually on screen for a total of about five seconds; while her presence was felt throughout the episode, she really served more as a plot device than anything else. In "Underneath", we get a few scenes of Wes and Illyria; not only does she have little screentime but the time she does have is completely unconnected to the rest of the episode. Lastly, in "Origin", she did have more scenes than before, but not many. For the most part she served as giving Wesley someone to talk to and a couple humorous sparring sessions with Spike. Once more, the story didn't really have much to do with her. As such, it baffles me that you say this has become The Illyria Show when she has had only one episode in which she was the character of note; in the others she's been relegated to the background. Plus, if she is going to be the season's main villain, as there are many hints she will be, then doesn't she deserve at least as much time as Jasmine got last season.

Finally, saying the Shanshu arc was discarded seems a bit premature. We've never really recieved any definitive information on that; odds are it's the sort of thing that goes away for a bit then comes back (like Lindsay this season, or Darla in Season 2). And I personally thought the wrap up to the memory arc was good. It got a whole episode devoted to it, which is hardly meager since it revolves around a character who has left the show. The only way to give it more time would be to have Connor learn or at least be suspicious of the truth, which would really remove the point ME was trying to make with it.

I'm not questioning your right to not watch "Angel" if you don't want to, but the reasons you've expressed here just don't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Photo-negatives, Mirrors and Boxes (Thoughts & Spoilers on ATS 5.18) -- shadowkat, 08:08:25 04/22/04 Thu

(Only seen this thing once and a lot of this is more or less off the top of my head, so excuse errors, please.)

In a photography studio - there's the print and the negative. The negative is the same as the print, but the inverse and you make the print off of the negative - which is what the print originates from. You can make as many prints as you like - but you need that negative. The negative is often the print backwards. Like reading words in a mirror. Everything is the opposite. It's flipped. Like an MC ESCHER drawing. Well this episode like Underneath is filled with photonegatives or mirror opposites.

(The question I guess is which is the photo-negative and which is the print...not sure it matters since I'm drawing an analogy not an exact metaphor.)

1. Spike and Connor. Pip, who posts on teaattheford and apto, has been asserting in a series of posts on this forum that Spike is Connor's mirror, or in the Connor role. Until now, I was admittedly skeptical. Well the visual clues alone in this episode appear to prove Pip right.

Here's what I saw:

Up until this episode Spike and Angel are joined at the hip. They are fighting side by side. The writers literally pound it into our heads. Heck last weeks episode, Underneath, they were shot as reflecting each other. They are a unit. Spike is Angel's right hand man. Then - Connor shows up, right as Angel is informing Wes that they should make Spike check out Illyria. We *never* see Angel and Spike alone together in this episode and only briefly in each others company. While Angel seems to be in Connor's throughout. Also check out the fight scene with the car - Connor is fighting, Angel whips out of nowhere. It's a contrast to the Angel/Spike scenes, where Angel is fighting - and Spike shows up and gradually the two fight as a team.

Also Angel's treatment of Spike is the mirror opposite to his treatment of Connor. Wes worries about anyone checking out Illyria, because she'll hurt them. Angel says: "we'll make Spike do it." Later with Connor, Angel is *very* worried about Connor taking on Saijhan, even resists it. He tries to interfere, a barrier holds him back, he watches them through it, just as you can watch Spike and Illyria fight - through a glass window.

The fight scenes - Saijhan hits Connor repeated in the face and head, Illyria hits Spike repeatedly in face and head. Spike is nice to Illyria, she's snarky. Connor is nice to Saijhan, he's snarky. Saijhan doesn't take Connor seriously. Illyria asks to make Spike her pet.

We never see Spike and Connor alone together or even in the same room for more than five minutes. Angel also is introducing Connor more to Illyria than to Spike, he seems to almost be ignoring Spike at the time.

Check out the car scenes in both Underneath and Origin, who is sitting where, how are they sitting, how is it shot? In Underneath. Spike is in back, between the two seats, leaning over them talking to Gunn and Angel in front, making comments. In Origin, Connor is in back, between the two seats, leaning over them talking to Mom and Dad in front.

Another parallel: At the end of Why We Fight, Spike walks up to Angel who is standing in front of the glass contemplating life and talks to him. At the end of Origin, Angel is standing in the same position and framed the same way when Connor comes up to him.

Way too many visual images over series of episodes for this not to be deliberate on the part of the writers/showrunners. All of this seems to emphasize that Spike and Connor are meant to be mirrored by the writers. Or rather the relationship between Angel/Spike is a mirror or photo-negative of the Connor/Angel relationship.

2. Another interesting photo-negative or mirror that shouted out to me: is Fred/Spike and Spike/Illyria or rather Fred/Spike relationship in Just Rewards to Hellbound- Illyria/Spike - Orgin. We have Spike/Fred in Just Rewards through Hellbound, where Fred is studying Spike in her lab, she's the one in the lab with the weird newcomer, with the clipboard in hand treating him like a specimen. The one prodding him with her readings while he calls her pet or flirts. Over time he becomes less something to be analyzed and something to be saved, a person. Now we have the mirror of that relationship, or alternate print - with Spike and Illyria. This round it is Spike, complete with his little clipboard, interviewing the weird newcomer, Illyria. Spike who is attempting to study her. And unlike the Fred/Spike scenerio, this one is violent - Illyria hits Spike, and is almost too corporeal. Spike in the bit between Just Rewards to Hellbound, is contained, hugs himself and if he strikes out goes through walls. Spike was all ghost, intangible, soft. Illyria all shell, hard, tangible. What remained of Spike was his spirit, his body out phase (hidden). What remains of Fred is her shell, her spirit is out of phase or gone (I think out of phase, hidden). IF we continue with the opposites - then I'd speculate (completely unspoiled on this) that Fred's spirit is probably in a box, just as Spike's corporeality is. Fred got taken over by Illyria by opening a box. Spike became corporeal by opening one. Illyria/Spike is the photo-negative of Spike/Fred.

3. Gunn's hell/Connor's heaven - while Angel is metaphorically getting his heart ripped out watching Connor, Gunn is literally getting his heart ripped out. (Another mirror image is Gunn/Angel in this episode). While Angel made a deal to give Connor the perfect life sans memories (his real memories are in a box), Gunn makes a deal to stay in a penalty box symbolizing in some respects Connor's perfect life, with his memories taken from him. Gunn has the perfect family, no memories of his past existence, but goes to the dungeon to get his heart ripped out for payment each day. WR&H offer him a counter-offer, he refuses, deciding to stay in his hell. Angel gave Connor the perfect family, no memories of his past existence, yet is forced to have his heart ripped out repeatedly - Vale gives him the counter-offer which would give back Connor's memories, Angel does anything to avoid it. He is willing to have his heart ripped out watching his son die to avoid it. Gunn's hell is the photo-negative/mirror of Connor's heaven. Gunn's deal - signing the contract with WR&H for memories to be better - the photo-negative/mirror of Angel's deal with WR&H to extract memories and to give Connor a better life.

4. Wes/Illyria is the photo-negative of Wes/Lilah. We go down to the file cabinets and Illyria stands just as Lilah did while Wes rummages through the documents and finds the condemning contract. It's an echo. And it leads him to a result just as damning as the one he discovered the last time - he can't save her. Both times he hunts the contract thinking he can save the girl - and both times he is confronted with reality or truth. The contract is signed. They made the choice to join. There is no going back. You can't rescue Lilah, but since this is the photonegative/mirror, we may yet get Fred.

5. Box metaphors. This time it's memories that WR&H has placed inside a box, a glowing glass box which Wes breaks open. (Let's see previous items placed in boxes are: spirits - Just Rewards, Virus - Conviction (the box being the boy), Sleep - Life of The Party, Illyria's essence - Hole in the World, Corporeality - Destiney) Once again - WR&H hires someone to box something up on the request of an Angel team member and an another Angel team member smashes the box. The result of smashing the box is not as dire as WR&H would like the Angel team member to believe. Spike becoming corporeal did not destroy the world. Connor regaining his memories actually saved his life, it did not destroy him as Angel feared.

*** As an aside:I believe Connor remembered everything and made the decision to stick with the fabricated memories and new world. He tells us why: 1) "I don't want to fight" after killing Saijhan. 2)"I love my family, they need protection in this world." Is this in character? Yes. Why - note what Wes tells Illyria, the new memories have changed us, we are different, and they help us endure the truth. Connor's fabricated memories gave him the assurances he didn't have before. As the demon Vale (I think that's his name) states - giving everyone back their memories does not change anything, it won't alter reality - all it does is make them aware or conscious of it - basically puts them in the same place as Angel has been all year - he can remember what happened before, but is in this reality. Another way of understanding it is looking at Gunn, who can remember what happened whenever he removes his amulet, but is stuck with his reality and chooses to put it back on since not knowing is less torturous than knowing. He chooses to forget. *(not sure if that made sense or not, sort of writing this off the top of my head, here.)

If Connor had not remembered - Saijhan would have killed him. And unboxing Saijhan did not result in anyone's death but Saijhan's. Nor did unboxing the memories cause Wes to turn on Angel, if anything it enabled Wes to finally understand and trust Angel again. It put Wes and Angel back on a level playing field, more or less. Repressing things, avoiding them - does not work.

I'm wondering if the box metaphors we see all season long may in some respects refer to Angel boxing up Angelus and his emotions. Angel seems to be boxing up each of his emotions and desires and putting them aside. Buffy over here. Connor over here. Spike over there. Darla over there. Wes and Cordy over there...and so on, layer after layer of boxes, underneath them all lies Angelus, and underneath Angelus what informed him. Liam and the family he destroyed.

6. Who is WR&H and what do they do? Got plenty of clues. I think: They are reasonable men who keep the world ticking along in an orderly fashion, with everything boxed up in its own nice little place, making deals, owning portions of peoples souls, controlling the world. WR&H may in some ways be the mirror of The Initiative in the Buffyverse or the photonegative. Hamilton offers Gunn a way out, but Gunn cuts him off before he tells him the deal, refusing it. Gunn has had enough of dealmaking. But has Angel?
Angel is shown making deals with the evil Vale (played to perfection by character actor Dennis Christopher, from the film Breaking Away and other numerous roles) - a deal that could get Connor killed and indeed almost does. Angel keeps making deals with fate to protect his family, himself. A deal to give Connor a better life. A deal to ensure Connor doesn't get those memories back. Wes is right - and is echoing Gunn in this scene, when he asks Angel, what deal did you make? So we have Angel's deal the photo-negative of Gunn's?

7. Back to Connor - his life with his family is the opposite of the life he had with Angel. A photo-negative or an alternate print of the previous season. With his new family, he is a stable kid, who goes to Standford and doesn't fight. I don't like fighting he says. With Angel, he is a fighter. Outside of normality. Not in the sunlight. No family, outside of a father and a drop-dead gorgeous super-being he's attracted to and would possibly have sex with. Spike is his mirror. Vampire son, with human inside vs. Human son/with vampire inside. Photo-negatives or mirrors.

Fascinating episode. Thanks for reading.

sk

Replies:

[> Re: Photo-negatives, Mirrors and Boxes (Thoughts & Spoilers on ATS 5.18) -- neaux, 10:16:10 04/22/04 Thu

great read.. but its ironic you do a post about photo-negatives and mirrors

and those are two things that dont really exist in the Angel of today's world.

Photo-negatives are relics.. To find one in the working world today is rare and should be extinct. Really. which does pretty much some up the uniqueness of Angel and Connor. Why? because Everything is digital.

And as for mirrors. They literally dont work for Angel. and yet you show how Angel is surrounded by them. neat.

[> Re: Photo-negatives, Mirrors and Boxes (Thoughts & Spoilers on ATS 5.18) -- Ann, 11:51:44 04/22/04 Thu

Great post.

"I'm wondering if the box metaphors we see all season long may in some respects refer to Angel boxing up Angelus and his emotions."

Yes I think. His office, his apartment, his desk, his decisions, his friends all are compartmentalized. The camera angles reveal this as well. Boxes are hollow like Angel's soul. I am thinking of TS Eliot's The Hollow Man.

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us-if at all-not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men

Angel and AI are these hollow people. The boxes with the broken glass, the mirror at their feet. They can't see themselves because the mirror is broken. They use the boxes to hold themselves together. It gives them a structure but is still hollow.

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the shadow

The shadow is that of their stolen memories. Vale gave them this and clearly the box needs to be broken. The hollow needs to be filled and I think they may be on their way there.

[> Re: Photo-negatives, Mirrors and Boxes (Thoughts & Spoilers on ATS 5.18) -- leslie, 21:29:36 04/22/04 Thu

"2. Another interesting photo-negative or mirror that shouted out to me: is Fred/Spike and Spike/Illyria or rather Fred/Spike relationship in Just Rewards to Hellbound- Illyria/Spike - Orgin. We have Spike/Fred in Just Rewards through Hellbound, where Fred is studying Spike in her lab, she's the one in the lab with the weird newcomer, with the clipboard in hand treating him like a specimen. The one prodding him with her readings while he calls her pet or flirts. Over time he becomes less something to be analyzed and something to be saved, a person. Now we have the mirror of that relationship, or alternate print - with Spike and Illyria. This round it is Spike, complete with his little clipboard, interviewing the weird newcomer, Illyria. Spike who is attempting to study her. And unlike the Fred/Spike scenerio, this one is violent - Illyria hits Spike, and is almost too corporeal. Spike in the bit between Just Rewards to Hellbound, is contained, hugs himself and if he strikes out goes through walls. Spike was all ghost, intangible, soft. Illyria all shell, hard, tangible. What remained of Spike was his spirit, his body out phase (hidden). What remains of Fred is her shell, her spirit is out of phase or gone (I think out of phase, hidden). IF we continue with the opposites - then I'd speculate (completely unspoiled on this) that Fred's spirit is probably in a box, just as Spike's corporeality is. Fred got taken over by Illyria by opening a box. Spike became corporeal by opening one. Illyria/Spike is the photo-negative of Spike/Fred."

What struck me was a parallel of Spike/Dead!Buffy vs. Spike/Dead!Fred. At first, Spike being the good lab assistant determined to write everything down on his clipboard felt really out of character. However, while Buffy was dead, Spike took over her role as Dawn's protector and minder. With Fred dead, Spike seems to feel compelled to take over her role as the scientific researcher. And this I find rather interesting--that Spike tends to take over the roles of strong women when the women themselves are gone.
Memory in "Origins" (Spoiler Warning) -- Jennifer Hudson, 08:44:32 04/22/04 Thu

Just some musings on memory in "Origins":

As Illyria joins Wes in his search for documentation of the "forgotten" exchange that had taken place between Angel and W&H, s/he states that the past cannot change the present, that the world "is as it is" --nothing more and nothing less.
Illyria then comments on Fred's memories (which remain fused with Illyria's own) and the way in which some of Fred's memories didn't belong (i.e. the absence of memories of Connor), while others did. Illyria asks Wes if this changes his view of Fred, his view of who she was, and he answers "yes."
Illyria and Wes also discuss false memories.
Later, when Illyria asks Wesley if the restored memories of Connor now make Wesley "Wesley," he replies, "no;" they change everything, he admits.

Here we are presented with the dilemma as to whether or not memories are the basis of identity. If memories are the basis of identity, then memories would serve as a kind of tool for understanding one's self in relation to the world, which could be invalid or falsified at times, as Illyria and Wes discuss. If memories are not the basis of identity (as Illyria tries to persuade Wesley to think this), then might be one's essence be this basis?

Hmn...
Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Arethusa, 08:57:39 04/22/04 Thu

The characters in the Buffyverse are wonderfully consistant, an amazing achievement for television. When Connor had the ability to choose between the lie of Jasmine's love and the truth, he chose the lie. And when Connor had to make that decision for the second time, he again chose the lie. But this time he chose it with free will, instead of having the decision made for him. And he is not the same boy as he was in "Home;" he's changed, as Illyria said Fred changed when her memories were changed. He can reject violence, he can understand that Angel made the terrible mistakes that he made out of an overwhelming love and fierce protectiveness for his son. His new memories of being Connor Riley (an Irish name, and also the name of another enhanced man-wonder if they're related?) gave him the ability to love and trust and maybe even forgive, abilities that were alien to him before since he had never experienced them. When AmnesiaConnor tells his parents he'll never trust them again for lying to him, he is joking, as Connor certainly would not have done. And he can throw a few words of comfort to his father despite rejecting him. "[My parents will] feel better knowing you're looking out for me," he says. And most especially, "You gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father." Then he walks away with to his good life, leaving Angel framed, boxen in, by his office doors.

ME doesn't give us the "right" answer. Connor does what he thinks is right for him. The new memories made the old ones endurable, Wes tells Illyria, something that applies to everyone, even those who obtain new memories the usual way. The old ones don't go away, but they do fade a little. And the new memories change us, help us better accept the old ones, if we let ourselves. But what if we refuse to accept our memories? What if we are afraid of them, afraid of the change? Then we are stuck in the loop, Angel's loop, now Gunn's also. Gunn is so very brave, accepting the punishment he has assigned himself for his mistakes. But that's not how it works. He can't erase Fred's pain and fear in dying by taking it on himself. Nothing can change her death. And he's doing no good to anyone, including himself. The last thing a priest says in confession is "Go forth and sin no more." Gunn is afraid to go forth, he's stuck in the confessional, saying his Hail Marys. He and Angel both unknowingly traded Fred for something they very much wanted, and in the process lost everything-mind (memories) and son.

Now all of AI is like Illyria, memories superimposed on memories.

Echoes:

"Unbreakable"-a man learning he's a superhero, something he never knew before because he never pushed himself hard enough to find out.

I have to believe in a better world, Giles says in The Wish. And now Wes breaks the spell, choosing truth over a lie.

AmnesiaConnor's thrill at being a superhero, like AmnesiaBuffy's in TR.

"I guess I've always had a thing for older women."
"They were supposed to fix that."

Other:

Does Angel let Connor fight Sahjhan because he believes in prophesies, or because he feels he has no choice, or both?

Illyria has aligned herself with Wes.

Replies:

[> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Vickie, 10:24:14 04/22/04 Thu

Great points, but I just cannot agree with the part about Connor choosing a lie. He chose a normal family and the feeling of normal belonging and closeness over his family of origin. Just because the situation was fabricated doesn't mean the feelings that have arisen are not real.

This is exactly parallel to Dawn/Buffy/Joyce, as others have pointed out. Joyce knew that Dawn wasn't really hers, but accepted the precedence of her feelings. "She still feels like my daughter." she told Buffy. And it was true.

Connor feels like Mr. and Mrs. Riley's son. That, and the fact that they need his protection while Angel and company scarcely do, formed his decision. I think he accepted that relationships formed out of artifice had primary importance in his life. While the circumstances were contrived, the feelings were real.

Oh, and a minor point: I doubt these folks are related to Riley Finn.

[> [> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Arethusa, 11:25:26 04/22/04 Thu

The Rileys aren't his parents-Darla and Angel are. He chose the manufactured memories over the real ones, which is the lie I refer to. It was a choice, made of free will, and he chose the life that made him happy. And I'm happy for him.

I agree that his feeling about his family are absolutely real to him.

[> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Ann, 10:28:26 04/22/04 Thu

"Gunn is so very brave, accepting the punishment he has assigned himself for his mistakes. But that's not how it works. He can't erase Fred's pain and fear in dying by taking it on himself. Nothing can change her death. And he's doing no good to anyone, including himself."

It is almost as if Gunn is now at the place where Angel was after Angel got his soul back. He is punishing himself, hiding away, being tortured. His journey may have just begun.

"Does Angel let Connor fight Sahjhan because he believes in prophesies, or because he feels he has no choice, or both?"

And he is sending his son into battle, another choice he again makes for others. Connor agreed but because he hadn't his memories, it was an uninformed choice. Angel was looking to others for aid, a prophesy this time. I think both in answer to your question but how does one send his only son into battle? Prophesies give Angel hope. A chance. Oh the choices he is presented with. I was facsinated with Connor's immediate love of the fight. Part of his essence perhaps, the demon within. Living a happy life doesn't seem to squelch that part of him.

[> [> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Evan, 11:01:30 04/22/04 Thu

Earlier this season, Angel seemed to be of the opinion that prophecies were just bs - sometimes they come true, sometimes they don't, although his eagerness to drink from that cup of misery in destiny suggested that he still believed in the Shanshu. I think Angel's lack of effort to stop Connor from having to fight Sahjan was a matter of... umm, not curiosity, per se, but evidence collection. Angel must love seeing prophecies come true - it means that the Shanshu probably will. That sounds a little selfish, and of course he would never consciously put his son in danger for the purpose of his curiosity, but that motive might have been underneath the surface a little.

[> [> [> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Ann, 15:01:51 04/22/04 Thu

"Angel must love seeing prophecies come true - it means that the Shanshu probably will."
I was thinking only in terms of Connor but I like this. If anyone had an inkling (and that is the weight I give to the Sanshu - just *maybe* true) about their future, it would have to be in the back of their mind. No value judgement here as to right or wrong on Angel's position as I think it a realistic backburner thought for him to have. Hope for his son and hope for himself.

[> [> [> [> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Casino, 17:52:37 04/22/04 Thu

"Angel must love seeing prophecies come true - it means that the Shanshu probably will"
I didn't get that impression from Angel. I saw a father who had faith in the abilities of his son. I think he only mentioned the prophecy to Connor to put into context why he was being called upon/blackmailed to defeat Sahjan.

[> [> [> [> Well, you know how the prophecy actually reads... -- Masq, 13:07:59 04/23/04 Fri

"The one sired by The Vampire With a Soul will grow to manhood and kill Sahjhan."

[> [> [> [> [> Oooooo, I'd forgotten that! Thanks Masq :-D -- angel's nibblet, 03:20:44 04/24/04 Sat


[> [> Re: Truth, Lies, Consequences---SPOILERS for Origin -- Arethusa, 11:38:14 04/22/04 Thu

I think it's very important that Connor (and Wes) value the truth so highly. They understand that a little hiding from reality can help us get by in this life, but it must be a fuly informed decision. Otherwise you are vulnerable to having choices imposed upon you, as Angel still can be. Angel tried to hide the truth, and Connor could have died because of it. (Umm, I hope that makes sense.)

[> [> If we believe in prophecies, what happens to free will? -- tam, 12:26:01 04/22/04 Thu


[> [> [> There's still plenty of room to maneuver. -- Gyrus, 13:28:18 04/22/04 Thu

In "Prophecy Girl," it was predicted with absolute certainty that Buffy would face the Master and die. Although that prophecy was fulfilled, it didn't happen the way anyone expected it to.

Now maybe Xander and Angel were destined resuscitate Buffy, but the prophet didn't see that part or didn't know what it meant, so it was never written down. However, it is also possible that Buffy could have died permanently if Xander and Angel had made different choices, and that any future prophecies about "the Slayer" would have been fulfilled by Kendra or Faith or whomever.

Therefore, although free will is not at all a certainty in the Buffyverse, it remains possible for Buffyversers to believe in it, albeit in a more limited sense than real-worlders like us can.

[> Gotta disagree about Gunn -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:28:07 04/22/04 Thu

He stayed behind because it was the only way to free Lindsay, whom Angel needed information from. He rejected the offer of freedom because, by this point he's decided not to trust any offers whatsoever that come from the Senior Partners (which is quite possibly a wise decision).

Also, I'm personally not convinced that Connor has his old memories back. The ending was very much ambigous in that regard. It's even possible, considering his distance from the breaking box, that he got a brief look into his past, but not the full dose that Wesley recieved. Perhaps those memories are now buried somewhere in his subconscious (allowing some possible increase in fighting skills, although that could be explained by the brief training he got from Angel), and maybe a complete memory or two.

Finally, Connor rejected being saved by a lie in Season 4, being the one who killed Jasmine and all.

[> [> Re: Gotta disagree about Gunn -- Arethusa, 17:06:29 04/22/04 Thu

Yes, it's very wise to turn down the senior partners! And he did stay to take Lindsey's place. But he didn't tell anyone else of this, and his regret at his actions probably played a part in his decision. Personally, I would have put Eve in there. ;)

It's just my opinion that Connor knows, I think it can be interpreted more than one way. But I'm convinced, because of VK's acting and the direction. I saw a little more gravity in the character, a deliberate pause before he said "I learned that from my father" followed by dawning realization on Angel's face, and then the slo-mo walk, Connor's head facing the ground, and his grim face. It convinced me.

I think Connor's different mental/emotional state in Origins helped him choose to go back to his parents. He could feel their love, and that was enough to make him accept that "lie." He rejected Jasmine's lie because he got nothing from it, couldn't feel her or anyone else's love. So love made the difference. Connor decided that his "parents'" love was true and real, even if the circumstances were not. Jasmine's love wasn't real, and he rejected it.

[> [> [> Re: Gotta disagree about Gunn -- Jane, 17:26:08 04/22/04 Thu

I think Gunn's decision to stay is,as someone else here pointed out, his start on his path of atonement. Whether his staying in hell will help achieve that is another matter; how he can get beyond it is the issue. Lindsay said the SPs can only torture you to the point you feel you deserve, so Gunn needs to forgive himself for his sins. Don't know how serious torture will do that though.
I loved this episode, and VK was wonderful. I am in the camp that believes Connor remembers his past. There was something in his voice when he told Angel that he learned from his father; I'm sure he knew he was looking at the father who sired him ;), even though his emotional attachments are to the parents who essentially adopted him. I got all teary watching that slow-mo walk to the elevator, with Angel alone in the doorframe.
So glad my computer is fixed! in time to read all the great posts here. Good stuff, very satisfying.

[> When is a lie not a lie? (Spoilers for Origin) -- Pip, 03:33:11 04/24/04 Sat

I think that while it was (deliberately?) left ambiguous, Connor and the Rileys already knew that Connor wasn't their biological son.

Couple of points in evidence:

When Connor is told about demons, his comment is: 'Is that what I am?' That's a very strange comment for someone who thinks he's the biological son of two obviously human parents.

When the Rileys come to Wolfram and Hart, their explanation about the truck is orientated to finding out about their son. But there is no real puzzlement about the idea that Connor might be 'different'. Likewise, in the car, the conversation is all about 'where do we go to get help.' No questions at all about 'why did this happen?'. Connor's just turned out to be drastically different from his parents - but no one is surprised.

Vail seems to have taken Connor's real memories (of being lost and abandoned in Quortoth) and replaced them with something that fits emotionally - but where the bad emotions of being abandoned and lost are followed by good emotions of being loved and rescued. If so, then he would also have to deal with Connor's emotions of having a biological parent who is not the person who brought him up. Connor was 'adopted' by Holtz - it would make sense for Vail to have replaced that memory in the same way he replaced the memory we're told about - by memories of being 'adopted', but by loving parents.

It would also explain why Connor is so cool and calm about his super-powers, about suddenly being catapulted into this weird world. If he's an adopted kid and he knows it, then one of his fantasies (in the memory-world) was probably that he'd turn out to be Clark Kent (The fantasies replacing the real memories of being a super strong fighter).

So Connor's chosen the false memories over the true. But, he's been with the Rileys (the real Rileys, not implanted memories of them) for over a year. He knows them. If he also knows (and they know) in those implanted memories that they adopted him, that they love him (that love is made extremely clear in the Riley's scenes), that they took him in, then that's all true.

What Vail really changed was the date when that all happened.

The false memories help him to deal with the real ones. Connor has two lives, and a choice between which one to pick. He can go back, to his old life, to his biological parent. Or he can go forward, and accept the decision his father made with such pain. He picks forward.

Angel and Co. have been talking all season about leaving Wolfram and Hart. Connor just leaves. He makes his own decisions now.
Are vamps the only ones? -- buffyguy, 13:03:18 04/22/04 Thu

its been a while since ive posted. I have a weird question. It just popped in my head and i cant stop wondering. Are vamps the only demons who go poof (or another reasonable facsimile thereof)? I dont remember of any other demon in the buffyverse that didnt leave a corpse. Halfrek comes to mind but she was burned to cinders. this has been nagging me for a while.

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[> The ones Andrew summoned to the construction site in Life Serial -- Merle, 13:10:06 04/22/04 Thu

melted without leaving a trace.

[> barney disintegrated or something -- anom, 21:20:05 04/22/04 Thu

I think it was in Parting Gifts--he was the empath demon who kidnapped Cordelia so W&H could auction off her "eyes of a seer." When he was stabbed w/the demon's horn (sorry, don't have time to look up the right name), what was left of him looked pretty dusty, although his clothes didn't turn to dust w/him. But it wasn't clear whether it was his own demonic nature or the way he was killed that made him poof.

[> [> Re: barney disintegrated or something -- buffyguy, 21:32:40 04/22/04 Thu

so basically there are few instances where the demons go poof. Which begs the question, where the heck do buffy and angel hide the rotting corpses of demons after they're whacked? I mean, i know they are shows and that it wouldnt be feasible with the time constraints to show them disposing of bodies, but in all seriousness, no one wants the laypeople to stroll around and find a dead whatever-demon laying in the bushes decomposing. So, i think its a pretty valid question. Angel, since at W&H can do any number of things to get rid of dead bodies, like bring them to the offices and have them incinerated or zap them with any number of scientific doo-hickeys and make them disappear. But Buffy and early Angel, its just weird to me that they never address what to do after killing a demon.

[> [> [> They addressed that issue in The Wish... -- Belladonna, 10:26:31 04/23/04 Fri

They didn't deal with it in great detail, but Buffy (with the assistance of Willow and Xander) killed a demon in the beginning of the show. After it died, they stared at it a minute, and Willow (I think) said, "Isn't it going to go poof?" Buffy said, "I guess these guys don't. We'll have to bury it I guess. Makes you appreciate vamps though. No fuss no muss." Or something of that nature. So I guess they do bury them.

[> [> [> [> It was in Hell's Bells, actually. -- DorianQ, 13:52:42 04/23/04 Fri


[> [> [> [> [> Nope...The Wish :) -- Belladonna, 11:43:58 04/25/04 Sun

Perhaps they address something in Hell's Bells as well, but the dialogue I'm referring to was definitely The Wish. I just watched it the other day, and I confirmed it on buffyguide.com. I haven't watched Hell's Bells in a while...how do they address it in that episode?

[> [> I think it was the horn -- Rook, 02:43:56 04/23/04 Fri

The Kungai's tak horn was capable of "consuming it's opponents" life force, as Wes put it. I'm assuming that was what was intended to be shown by what happened to Barney.
Vail Spoilers for 5.18 Origin -- Alistair, 14:32:42 04/22/04 Thu

Cyvus Vail appeared to be getting some sort of metaphysical life support in the episode. They called him a warlock... I wonder if Vail is human, a very very unnaturally old human who made just enough deals to live a long and magical life, which is soon to end. He said that he wants to tie up loose ends (ie. Sahjahn) and it seems like he wants to do that before he dies, however, maybe he is tying up loose ends before the W &H apocalypse puts him out of business.

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[> Re: Vail Spoilers for 5.18 Origin -- luvthistle1, 03:10:44 04/23/04 Fri

Well, on one hand, Cyvus Vail doesn't look human, on another " I have never seen an demon on life support. so it best to say he somewhere in between. I also think he might have just gave the finger to W&H. I figure that they wanted Connor and Cordy out of the way, so that they control angel. I sure Vail was aware of that. when he ran, I do not think he was running from angel. after all Angel is only an vampire, and he is a seemslessly powerful mage. I bet that he was running from W&H

[> [> Unless of course he's highly specialised -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:26:16 04/23/04 Fri

He might be a great master at performing memory altering rituals; that doesn't necessarily mean he has much in the way of pracitcal defense.
Last night's episode made me happy. Some thoughts on "Origin"(and spoilers, obviously) -- BrianWilly, 16:41:33 04/22/04 Thu

What more can we ask for? I thought it was one of the best episodes of the season, if not the best. And the ending...very cool. Very deserved, as well.

I'm of the faction who believes Conner did get his memories back. I mean...come on. There are events in these shows that are "ambiguous" (whether Buffy slept with Spike in Chosen or not; whether Andrew is gay or not) and then there are events that are full-blown shovings of the answer right in front of your face complete with meaningful dialogue, slow-motion power shots, and backing orchestral score.

I also really liked this exchange, not just for its comedic value, but what it implies as well:
Conner: "I guess I've always had a thing for older women."
Angel: "They were supposed to fix that..."
Conner: "What?"
Angel: "Nothing."

Maybe I'm just looking too hard into a humorous exchange -- and hey, who wouldn't lust after Amy Acker in that outfit -- but Conner's omnipresent attraction to older women implies to me that no matter how much of his original memories they erase and how many fake memories they create in their place, there are always going to be certain attributes of Conner that make up the identity of this person...that make Conner Conner, so to speak.

Illyria points out that all beings are merely a sum of the events which led up to the present, that we are all merely sums of our memories. Wesley briefly argues the case, stating that people are more than memories, that there is a certain identity in and of itself which shapes the core of a person's being(my words, not his). In this episode, Conner seems to embody both arguments. He is happy and well-adjusted, going to college, and cracks jokes on a whim...very unlike the Conner pre-memory wipe.

But he's still "Conner." He's physically the same as before, hence the superstrength. He acts like the old Conner enough that we aren't thrown totally off guard, viewing him as a totally separate identity. He still loves him the older womans, probably more of a biological trait than anything else...an interesting notion would be that Jasmine, knowing that she would have to come in Cordelia's body to seduce Conner, somehow engineered this trait herself, since Conner's birth was supposedly pre-ordained and pre-determined and all that.

Most interesting of all, both Conners exhibit a dislike for violence. Sure, Quortoth Conner was trained for the hunt and experienced in combat, but we knew from his admissions to comatose Cordy that what he wanted most of all was for all the fighting to stop
. Conner Riley, the "new" Conner, has never been in a fight in his life and after killing Sahjahn, stresses that all this fighting and violence isn't for him. Admittedly this was after his memory is restored, but even so at this point he was still channeling "new" Conner.

So if, as Wes states, humans truly possess something beyond their immediate memory which defines their identity, Conner's reticence towards violence would be one of them. Conner Riley is a fabricated existence; it represents Conner as he would have been if he had never been to Quortoth and been brutally forced to become a sociopathic killer...except that being violent and murderous isn't actually in Conner's true nature, the core of his identity.

With that in mind, we can argue that Quortoth, not the life that Qail created, was actually "the lie," the fabrication, the deceit of Conner. It was the reality that went against the nature of Conner, the reality that never should have happened. People including myself to a degree ganged up on Angel when he erased Conner's memories last year, thinking that it was a violation and a cop-out when really, what was he doing other than righting what was wrong?

And now, in addition to Quortoth Conner and Conner Riley, we have a "new" Conner...one who remembers both lives. Quortoth Conner now has everything he's ever wanted: acceptance, happy life, peace. And Conner Riley has found a father he never knew, one that he has never been able to understand and appreciate before. As Illyria would say, he's a product of both memories...and all the better off for it.

I wonder if the same could be said of Wes.

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[> Well, according to some psychologists . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:05:31 04/22/04 Thu

As much as 75% of our behavior and personality is determined by genetic factors. Hence, similarites between the two Connors are to be expected.

Also, couldn't the slo-mo and music have been to signify Angel's feelings and not Connor's? After all, he was seeing his son leave, quite possibly forever. That seems a fitting event to earn those directorial touches.

[> [> Re: Well, according to some psychologists . . . -- Tyreseus, 10:44:18 04/23/04 Fri

Also, couldn't the slo-mo and music have been to signify Angel's feelings and not Connor's? After all, he was seeing his son leave, quite possibly forever. That seems a fitting event to earn those directorial touches.

Well, framing. As a director, if I want to emphasize Angel's feelings, I put the shot focused on him. I watch over his shoulder as his son walks away with a spring in his step to go reunite with his parents. I give the slo-mo effect to Connor's back, not his his (hardened, determined) face. I pull away from Angel to show his isolation and the reality that he alone knows what this event signifies...

Just my opinion, though. (And I'm not a director, so I could be talking out my ear)
Connor's memories -- just passing by, 21:50:47 04/22/04 Thu

I think from the montage of memories shown, it is pretty conclusive that Connor did get his memories back. If you watch carefully you can see a shot of Connor dragging that blond girl Cordy killed in Inside Out across the floor. No one else could have seen that. Also the last shot of the montage was clearly Connor and Angel's confrontation in the sporting goods store. Since they were the only two people there, and Angel never lost his memories, this could only have been Connor's memories returning to him.

In addition, after the montage, Connor remembered all his old fighting abilities and managed to kick Sahjahn's ass. The Amnesia Connor would never have pulled it off since he did not have all the years of training and the fighting experience. This is not something that you can pull out of your ass just because you dont like your neck touched. This kind of reaction time and strategizing only happens with years of training and actual fighting experience. That, and in addition to the old Connor fighting face, which is also featured in the memory montage, makes it pretty clear that Connor had regained his memories.

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[> Question about Connor and Jasmine (spoiler for 5-18) -- Ames, 11:18:47 04/23/04 Fri

When Connor was smeared with Cordy's blood, his devotion to Jasmine didn't change. Later it was shown that he did see her as she really was, but he called her true face "beautiful" and it didn't seem to matter to him. What wasn't clear was whether he saw Jasmine's true face from the beginning, or whether Cordy's blood did affect him and change what he saw.

If it was the latter, it would be pretty solid evidence that Connor wouldn't necessarily react outwardly to having a shocking truth revealed. That would be an important factor in judging his reaction in Origin if his false memories were suddenly revealed to him.

[> [> Re: Question about Connor and Jasmine (spoiler for 5-18) -- tam, 22:23:27 04/23/04 Fri

Connor knew what she looked like -- from Peace Out

FRED: Yeah, Cordy's blood that we put in you, it was supposed to break the spell. Show you what she really looks like.

CONNOR: I know what she looks like.

He looks over at Jasmine's maggoty, rotting flesh. He's seen her like this from the start

[> [> [> Re: Question about Connor and Jasmine (spoiler for 5-18) -- angel's nibblet, 02:37:15 04/24/04 Sat

He's seen her like this from the start

This is always what I assumed. Since he is Jasmine's father, I assumed the same rule applied to his blood as to Cordy's.


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