April 2004 posts
Why would Wolfram and Hart want to make this Apocalypse the "one"? -- slayer, 20:06:33 04/14/04 Wed
In my personal opinion there will always be champions to fight these Apocalypses. Wolfram and Hart might be going for a final finish sorta like the First was doing on Buffy. In Season 2 of Angel, Holland said that winning isn't important but they keep going no matter what in one form or another. They may just want to destroy the world to control it all to expand their evil power. There is no final goal, no "end" in which Angel will "win" or Wolfram and Hart will "win" once and for all.
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Re: Why would Wolfram and Hart want to make this Apocalypse the "one"? -- skpe, 06:34:51 04/15/04 Thu
Maybe it's a little meta narration, since this is the last season this coming Apocalypse is the last.
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Re: Why would Wolfram and Hart want to make this Apocalypse the "one"? -- Alistair, 06:42:38 04/15/04 Thu
We dont know what their ultimate plan is, but we do know that the W&H apocalypse is here now. It is a gradual change in the world aimed to allow the partners ultimate control. They represent evil as order, their perfect order of evil and rule over all dimensions. There is no telling how many worlds they control already, and why Earth is so important to them. Everything the humans are ever told is that their species is weak and pointless and should be killed, but Earth seems to be the crux of all these evil plans. The Senior Partners aren;t all amped up about conquering other dimensions (unless they already have), they want the Earth to serve them, ever man woman and child. Perhaps their apocalyse is the last because it slowly makes Earth into a demon realm in the sense that their rule will be welcomed by all humans, and the heroes, as well as any opposition will be gone.
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Re: Why would Wolfram and Hart want to make this Apocalypse the "one"? -- David, 10:45:48 04/16/04 Fri
I haven't seen this episode yet but it sounds really cool. Anyway i don't think W&H want to turn it into a demon realm but i do think they want to control it themselves since they don't seem interested in helping the Old ones regain control. I Alistair about them wanting all humans to bow to them. They want an ordered evil like Meseket said in season 3, she & the senior partners hate chaos and probably their apcalypse won't actually destroy the world but just conquer it for the partners and they seem to have lots of politicians on their side so that'll make it easier to control a lot of humans.
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Wolfram and Hart's "Apocalypse" isn't about... -- BrianWilly, 14:53:05 04/16/04 Fri
....a sudden burst of big fire and destruction and death and stuff getting blown up. It's about entropy. It's gradual, and constant, and it's been going on for a heck of a long time...maybe as far back as whenever the Wolf, Ram, and Hart first came into being. Their goal, as I gather it, is not to suddenly bring hell to earth in the way that the First and other baddies imagined, but to gradually make the earth into a living hell itself. And from what we've been shown through both BtVS and AtS, they're doing a pretty good job of it.
The human race is getting more and more decrepit and shallow and callous and immoral as time goes on, shut off from each other in our "walls." It's not getting better, so we can only deduce that it's getting worse. Entropy...slowly, bit by bit. If W&H haven't
actually been orchestrating this spiritual decay, then at the least they've encouraged it and prevented others from stopping it. Why? Because in a world where unhappiness is the norm and morality is the rarity, those with power and the will to use power to dominate others rule with ease. Those with will use power to dominate, of course, being Wolfram and Hart. If everyone trusted each other and lived happy lives and helped the world and trusted the world to help them in return, tyrants and deceivers(once again, W&H)become the struggling minority.
(On a sidenote, I think it's very telling that Illyria mentions Wolfram and Hart having once been very weak and looked-down upon)
But that isn't the case with the world today. People are distrustful, people are lonely, people are weak because they are alone, and because they are weak they turn to deceit and treachery to gain power, and in turn spread the attitudes of mistrust. It's a cycle that's beeing going on throughout history and
continues, slowly yet inevitably continues.
THAT'S the "Apocalypse" of Wolfram and Hart. Again this is only my conjecture, but they're not going to open some dimensional hell portal or lead an army of demons to slaughter everyone. Lindsey tells Angel that if that's the type of "battle" they're preparing for, then they've got it all backwards. The Apocalypse, aka end of humanity, began a long time ago.
And actually, Angel was fighting this Apocalypse. Way back in season 1.
"It's not all about fighting and gadgets and stuff. It's about reaching out to people, showing them that there's love and hope still left in the world."
-Doyle, "City of..."
That was what Angel was supposed to do, what the Powers That Be had planned. He saved lives, and more importantly he saved souls. This is why he was such a danger to Wolfram and Hart. When people stop believing in and fearing the power of evil, Wolfram and Hart loses out.
Again, that was what he was supposed to do. Now, Angel's runs Wolfram and Hart. Strictly speaking, he still fights evil and saves lives. But he does it through paperwork and compromise. The former isn't really the big issue here...after all, the world is changed every day, often for the better, with a simple signing of papers. It's the latter, the fact that he must play a game of legal give-and-take with the forces of darkness...that's the big issue, because heroes don't do that. Look at you now, says Cordelia to Angel. Wolfram and Hart has him right where they want him, smack dab in the most morally ambiguous place he's ever been. He's been so consumed with the Senior Partners' plans for him that he's been distracted from the Senior Partners' plans for the people he's supposed to protect. People who fight evil, even those who once loved and trusted him, now see him as being on the other side. And maybe most importantly, he's now two men down from when they first came to Wolfram and Hart(three, if you count Cordy). Fred is gone. Gunn is gone. Wesley is anguished...well, again. Lorne is teetering. Angel has been doubting himself for the last year. The only guy who's still himself is Spike, and that's probably because he's not only been out in the field, "doing [Angel's] job," he's also a bit of a wild card that W&H never expected.
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Re: Wolfram and Hart's "Apocalypse" isn't about... -- Alistair, 12:52:33 04/18/04 Sun
This brings up a fascinating idea:
The Wolf Ram and Hart were born out of the Old Ones with a destiny of their own, to one day, after the dem ons are banished, to bring entropy back to Earth any other dimensions the Old Ones ruled.
The original play was the powers walking to Earth and some of them became dark and from them the Old Ones came about (either born on Earth or brought forth from other worlds). Then they left, and now that the humans are the new rulers of Earth, ot may be the plan to turn all the humans dark, to make the Earth into a demon world again, but now it will be the humans who evolve into a new type of demon.
Jasmine said... in the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. the seeds of what would be known as good and evil. But the grew and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The Earth became a demon realm.
The shadows now grow again on Earth and the partners are the harbingers of this new human evil.
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Why? -- Claudia, 15:57:40 04/16/04 Fri
"In my personal opinion there will always be champions to fight these Apocalypses."
But why? Why is it so important to have champions to fight off apocalypses? Why can't characters like Angel, Spike and Buffy simply have a life? Why is it so important to us to have characters battling demons, vampires, etc. nearly every day - "fighting the good fight"? Why? To preserve the world? The world will probably end one way or another, or someday in the future.
Is this desire to have a champion really about needing heroes? Or is it about humans' tendency toward self-preservation? Are we really that afraid to die?
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Re: Why? -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:23:13 04/16/04 Fri
In my humble opinion, the meaning of life is to be happy. If you're not alive, you can't experience joy or pleasure, and so I desire to stay alive for a long time, otherwise I wouldn't be able to feel those simple yet wonderful emotions anymore. You seem to be saying that nothing in this world has any value, meaning, or reason for preservation, that you couldn't care one way or the other whether you, someone else, or the entire world was destroyed. That, to me, sounds like the thinking of a very depressed person.
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Re: Why? -- LittleBit, 16:28:17 04/16/04 Fri
Since this same question was asked by you in another thread less than 10 minutes before you posed it here, I'll link you to the answer I gave there.
I love this show. -- Seven, 20:19:11 04/14/04 Wed
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Me, too...Fantastic episode tonight! -- Rob, 23:05:08 04/14/04 Wed
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Re: I love this show. -- skpe, 06:27:56 04/15/04 Thu
I did too. A question though Is Spikes jacket still the one he took from Nicky? and how many holes are in it now? (He collected a few more last night). Also the seen with Loran removing the bullets reminded me of the similar seen in Terminator II
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Re: I love this show. -- DeathIsYourArt, 10:16:17 04/15/04 Thu
I think Spike must really know how to sew or something. He has to be patching that jacket up.
Also, for some reason the fact that Spike was shot in the back and Angel in the chest is sitting with me... I don't think it means anything, but it will not leave me.
And the Terminator reference from Lorne didn't register with me until you said that the scene with the bullets reminded you of the movie. It just reminded me of when the Scoobies were taking out the initiative tracking device in Spikes back in season 4.
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Right there with ya. -- DorianQ, 12:56:47 04/15/04 Thu
I hate that it might be the end, but a hell of a way to go!
Now we know -- skeeve, 20:22:56 04/14/04 Wed
what happened to all the shrimp that had been in the world now without shrimp.
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Re: Now we know (little spoilery..sorta) -- DeathIsYourArt, 20:48:27 04/14/04 Wed
I called that one before she said it.. not that that was hard but it shocked my mother who decided to watch with me.
Also noticed that the demon looked alot like the one from "Get it Done" which let me know that an exchange would be needed.
And remember "There is ALWAYS an amulet"!
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- Elizabeth, 05:19:02 04/15/04 Thu
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a Buffy episode in which Anya spoke of a "shrimp univerese"....did anyone else catch that?
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- CW, 05:49:33 04/15/04 Thu
In Triangle, Anya was discusing different dimesions, such as the Troll dimension, when she stated there was a world without shrimp. I believe 'the world without shrimp' was orginally made up by someone writing for The National Lampoon back in the mid 70s, but it could have been by someone earlier.
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- skeeve, 06:02:27 04/15/04 Thu
My first post in this thread was a reference to the exodus of shrimp from the world now without shrimp and their inodus to another.
An answer: It is now.
The question is left as an exercise for the reader.
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Also discussed in Superstar -- Cheryl, 09:36:47 04/15/04 Thu
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- Elizabeth, 05:20:17 04/15/04 Thu
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a Buffy episode in which Anya spoke of a "shrimp univerese"....did anyone else catch that?
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- DeathIsYourArt, 10:08:32 04/15/04 Thu
In Superstar (S4 Buffy) Anya mentioned both a world with just shrimp and a world without any shrimp. She brought it up again in Triangle (s5 Buffy) and we found out that Tara is allergic to shrimp.
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- MaeveRigan, 10:45:24 04/15/04 Thu
Thanks, DIYA. I knew someone would either remember the exact references, or know how to use the Buffy Dialogue Database :-)
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- Ann, 17:22:32 04/15/04 Thu
From the Buffy database where there are 11 references to shrimp: The ones being discussed here.
From Superstar:
ANYA: Sure, alternate realities. You could uh, could have like a world without shrimp. Or with, you know, nothing but shrimp. You could even make like a freaky world where Jonathan's some kind of not perfect mouth breather if that's what's blowing up your skirt these days. Just don't ask me to live there! Now if I, uh, could just have book back you could be on your way someplace else?
From Superstar:
BUFFY: But that's just it. I'm not entirely sure that we can trust our memories. Anya tell them about the alternate universes.
ANYA: Oh ok. Umm. Say you really like shrimp a lot. Or we could say you don't like shrimp at all.
ANYA: Blah I wish there weren't any shrimp you would say to yourself.
BUFFY: Stop you're saying it wrong! I think that Jonathan may be doing something so that he's manipulating the world and we're all like his pawns.
ANYA: Or prawns.
BUFFY: Stop with the shrimp I am trying to do something here!
From Triangle:
ANYA: It's possible that he's in the land of perpetual Wednesday ... or the crazy melty land ... or, you know, the world without shrimp.
TARA: There's a world without shrimp? (Willow looks at her) I'm allergic.
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Re: Now we know...Shrimp -- skeeve, 07:25:16 04/16/04 Fri
In Superstar, Anya was apparently
just discussing possibilities.
No world with only shrimp was stated
to exist until Illyria told Wes.
*Now* we know.
BTW What is perpetual Wednesday like?
Would a mad farrier be involved?
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Farriers and shrimp products -- Ann, 11:14:09 04/16/04 Fri
Perhaps. I first thought of the Adams Family's daughter Wednesday. There is a fan fiction site Perpetual Wednesday. And in the child's rhyme "Wednesday's child is full of woe;" Sounds live a 'verse we all know and love.
In terms of farriers, this definition from the Farrier and Hoofcare Resource Center does apply.
RETAINED SOLE
The sole of a hoof which does not exfoliate normally. This can be a beneficial trait, as the retained sole provides extra protection for the hoof's internal structures. a.k.a: False sole.
Excuse the puns but I couldn't resist. Shells are everywhere and not unrelated to shrimp.
And getting even more obscure, chitin, a product made from shrimp shells is used for engineering clean water, surgical thread and making artificial skin. "The U.S. Army is particularly interested in fibers of chitosan containing enzymes that detoxify harmful nerve agents. These materials would be used in filters of gas masks or as outer layers of protective military clothing.9 In the eye-wear industry, chitin-chitosan has been used to prepare contact lenses."
At http://www.spelman.edu/ssmj/vol1_2/tech/roney.htm
If Angel or Illyria could get some of this stuff, perhaps their souls could be cleansed, their sight would be clearer and their nerves wouldn't be so frazzled.
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This made me laugh *so* much, and then reminisce fondly.... -- angel's nibblet, 03:01:36 04/19/04 Mon
You know, Buffy was a great show...:-D
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An explanation? -- Ames, 07:16:18 04/21/04 Wed
From Graduation Day 1, Willow is studying her magic books, looking for a spell to use against the mayor:
Willow: "If we want to make ferns invisible, or communicate with shrimp, I've got the goods right here."
Aha! Obviously someone or something in the distant past devised a spell to communicate with shrimp, and somehow caused them to migrate between universes, creating the universe with no shrimp and the universe with all shrimp!
Worlds collide - spoilers tonights episode -- Ann, 20:51:21 04/14/04 Wed
Worlds Colliding
This episode opens with Angel at a desk looking indecisive and waiting. Waiting for what, is the question. Spike perhaps, who is now a more formal partner once again with Angel. First collision. Harmony is used as an expository device and later a doll to be flung across the room. Second collision. She is still trying. Angel declares he won't wait for the senior partners to give him ??? he will bring it to them. The collisions continue. This mirrored Buffy taking her fight to the First and his ubervamps. I think we are back to the first again, but not that First. The first this time is Angel. This is the battle within and beneath. Angel needs to protect all of his employees with the newly discovered "proviso"(sp?) but I think he needs it most for himself.
The Stepford family Lindsey gets mirrors Connor's "new" life and both Spike and Lorne's speeches putting on the happy painted faces. More shells. What is hidden away in the walls of suburbia? Love how Lindsey's son is studying earth layers. The son is the astronaut. Angel is father and son. These worlds are colliding as the camera cuts to each relationship. Each is dealt with separatel. Wes- Illiyria, Gunn(guilty)- Gunn (remorseful), Lindsay-Eve. I am also wondering if the world in which Angel lives is the world he was given (similarly to the one Lindsay gets) by the SP, PTB. Hmm. What the heck does that say about the PTB and the SP? Do they dispense these worlds, willy-nilly or do they have they reasons, their judgments on us all?
The feathers (little Angel wings) falling during the fight reminded me of the snowflakes falling on Angel in Amends. From the heavens to what lies beneath. Nice contrast again. From the astronaut to the beast. Angel goes into the basement of his soul, finally. The fire, the torture equipment, the cage of belly of the beast where it lies beneath. Angel has arrived where he can finally confront what he needs to confront. Himself. I am so waiting for the mirror where he can finally see himself.
Nightmares are trapped demons is so cool. I love that idea. Ideas should be free, should nightmares? But they have to be released for Angel to survive.
Marcus Hamilton is an excellent contrast to Illiyria, in manner of dress, hair and the spoken word. His eyes were very focused and hers still dart around.
And on a final quick note, I was so saddened by Lorne's declaration of "We leave them behind. That is what we do now." These corporate/personal statements of grief and loss by Lorne just kill me. Doesn't he just cut to the chase? Channeling Cordelia perhaps? Lots of questions.
Good episode.
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More: Re: Worlds collide - spoilers tonights episode -- Ann, 04:34:04 04/15/04 Thu
Sorry for the second post but this came to me in my sleep.
More on the furniture, specifically couches and feathers in hell. Couches this season played pivital locations as Spike and Angel have a historic chat on one. It usually is a place of comfort and relaxation. Not in hell. This place where Lindsay is sent and Angel finds, is destroyed (but later returned to its evil fashionable home design for another inmate) during the fight by gunfire. I mentioned the feathers but after thinking about it I realized that this destroying of the couch specifically represents the releasing of Angel's choice. The feathers as they come fluttering out, covering him, could be as I said in the above post, little baby angel feathery wings lifting him out of his damaged past. His redemption. Or they could be (literally are) goose feathers. Will Angel chicken out or chose to find his redemption? Once again Angel is given a choice.
Birds of a Feather
Birds of a feather flock together,
And so will pigs and swine;
Rats and mice will have their choice,
And so will I have mine.
A Mother Goose rhyme.
Angelus says in Darla: "ANGELUS: And this one, down and goose feathers, and the finest silks and linens and a view. She's always gotta have the view (leans in close to her) don't you, my lamb?."
In Just Rewards Gunn says: "GUNN: Look, we're ruffling a lot of dangerous feathers out there. There's gonna be a backlash. Count on it."
Here is the backlash. Your hell is what you make it. There apparently are choices even in hell. Your redemption is for yours or Angel's to grab, the cup of torment is in his grasp.
Anyone else feel like the WB is rubbing salt our wounds? -- Vash the Stampede, 06:25:40 04/15/04 Thu
First, they cancel Angel, then they don't rerun it's previous episodes (I guess they feel it's not necessary anymore) now they have these promos saying, "Don't miss the last 6 episodes" as if it was a mutal decision to retire Angel. I mean AGH!!! It was one thing when UPN did that with Buffy; although we were sad, most of us agreed the show had had a good run, and we could understand it winding down. With Angel though, the show still has one, maybe two more seasons of stories to tell, and now the WB is acting like its one of its favorite shows, and we should all catch the last episode before they say goodbye? AGH!!!!!!
Okay, I feel better now ;)
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Sorry, should be salt IN our wounds -- Vash the Stampede, 06:29:33 04/15/04 Thu
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I tend to agree -- Gyrus, 08:45:04 04/15/04 Thu
It's like firing an employee and then throwing a good-bye party for her as if she were leaving of her own volition. At least I have the (bitter) satisfaction of knowing that I won't be watching the WB anymore after this, since I'm not into any of their other shows.
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Re: I tend to agree -- DeathIsYourArt, 10:21:14 04/15/04 Thu
Oh, and didn't you all love the commercial before the show started that showed 3 of the upcoming guest appearances and ruined it for those of us that are unspoiled?
Stupid FROG! I am currently cutting that Looney Tunes cartoon to end BEFORE we find out that the frog survived what the homeless man did to kill him.
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Re: I tend to agree -- Marginal Drifter, 12:51:55 04/15/04 Thu
Oh my god! That's so mean!
When Sky One were like "Tune in for the last series of Angel!" all chirpy (Which they're still not doing anymore - possibly they're hoping that people won't realise its cancelled and keep watching repeats oblivious...Or that they're in denial, which I like)It just felt like they we were all being little troopers together - you're not allowed to be a trooper when the thing we're trooping against is your fault and your decision!
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The people who cancel a show aren't necessarily the ones who decide advertising -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:52:27 04/15/04 Thu
Could be some higher up(s) decided to cancel Angel while someone lower down on the totem pole disagreed and they were the ones with lots of control over promotions.
Of course, if WB did real lackluster advertising, there would then be complaints that this solidified their hatred of "Angel". Short of them renewing it, would any of us really be totally happy with them?
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Also, I don't fault them for those casting spoilers in the addys... -- Rob, 23:32:43 04/17/04 Sat
....Because higher ratings=good, so if there's even a chance that more people who don't necessarily watch the show regularly might be driven to do so when they find out the exciting guest stars lined up, that is of the good in my book. Not holding out hope that the ratings will reach amazing heights and the show will be saved, but a little optimism never hurt anybody.
And to the commercials' credit, no plot points were spoiled. They were positively oblique, which is quite an accomplishment for a network promo, which are notorious for completely ruining future episodes of shows. FOX's 24 promos are so spoilery in particular (going so far as to have, last year, shown a popular character being killed in one of them), I won't watch them at all. These promos, though, really nothing to complain about. If they didn't try to promote the hell out of the last batch of Angel episodes ever, I'd be much more annoyed.
Rob
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Re: Anyone else feel like the WB is rubbing salt our wounds? -- skpe, 17:04:44 04/15/04 Thu
What really rubs in the salt is when drivel like 'Charmed' gets renewed. Some times a think Wesly is on the right track about the state of the world (at least the WB's part of it)
Philosophizing the Layers in Underneath....spoilers for Angel 5.17 -- Rufus, 07:04:09 04/15/04 Thu
Layers upon layers.....from the crust of the earth to dreams and nightmares. Fred is gone and her loss is felt by everyone, specially Wesley who is stuck with her shell and Illyria. What does he do? The best thing he knows of, drink himself into a dream where Fred is there speaking to him. If you listen to the bit about the fallen man and the man who isn't close you have to wonder about the foreshadowing, but I picked on one thing the dream Fred said...
Dream Fred: This is only the first layer - don't you want to see how deep I go?
Wesley isn't thinking much about anything but his immediate pain so he continues to deal with this god/shell the best he can.
Now to Eve, she is in a desperate situation, life and death and all. She is the one to direct Angel to the alternate dimension that Lindsey has been sent to. And if she is correct, there really are layers upon layers to Wolfram and Hart. Angel gets some help from Gunn. Gunn is still in his hospital bed when Angel speaks to him about the price he paid for the brains he is not using. He isn't easy on Gunn, he does say that he will feel this pain of regret forever and so he should...but adds that he will feel this pain because he is a good man and I agree. He has a chance for atonement, but he has to take the chance, a bad man would have just moved onto the next opportunity. Gunn does the reverse. Gunn goes back to who he was. When he joins Angel and Spike to go to hell, his clothes are what we remember from last year and his head freshly shaved.
He has news, the tattoo stuff is from some smart guy in Japan who must reside in the same alternate, holding dimension that Lindsey is in. Gunn calls it the Senior Partners idea of a penalty box. Funny how they don't kill you they just give you a painful time out in a place not on the map or Thomas guide. They are on their way to suburban hell, and in that hell you can die every day.
Back to layers, Lindsey has a conversation with his son that is mirrored at the end of the episode....
Lindsey: And, what's underneath that?
Zach: Mmm, the mantle?
Lindsey: Yup, and underneath that? Come on you know this one.
Zach: The outer core.
Lindsey: And under that?
Zach: The inner core.
Lindsey: And under that?
Zach: Under that? Nothing.
Lindsey: There's the soft chewy center.
Zach: Ha ha.
So, hell is repetition in suburbia. Can you imagine what would happen if someone used a different coloured siding on their place in hell?
Angel takes the medallion off of Lindsey and his memory returns, and he also remembers what has happened to his heart, day after day after day....
Lindsey: We're all going to die.
Angel: Not today.
Lindsey: No, everyday.
Just an aside, Illyria says to Wes....
Illyria: All I am is what I am.
So, what is she.....think layers.
Oh, forgot to mention Jayne/ooops Marcus Hamilton, he is well dressed. He also makes a good point about Eve...she lost sight of the big picture. I had a Tabula Rasa moment when Eve, Lorne, and Harmony screamed when Hamilton punched a sunroof through that security guard.
I know, I'm not staying much on subject so lets get back to the Angel/Lindsey banter. Eve may love Lindsey but I just bet for that moment when he mentioned her mortality she regretted helping get the a/h out of hell. But he does have some good things to say.
Angel: I thought a few months of torture at the hands of the Senior Partners would have dug a little deeper.
Lindsey: Just scratched the surface (layer, he meant to say layer, but he didn't) turns out they can only undo you as far as you think you deserve to be undone....I wonder how Gunn's gonna make out?
Sigh, I guess there will be a pile of Gunn's hearts in that penalty box soon enough, maybe add in those upgraded brains to the pile. But Angel got Lindsey out of the box for a reason, and Lindsey tells him what he has been to stupid and distracted to notice.
Angel: Yeah, hell's on earth. Holland Manners tried to sell me that line 3 years ago.
Lindsey: Did you prove him wrong? (good point)
Hell, on earth, and without a gong or horsies, the truth.
Angel: All how you look at the glass. You know, Lindsey, we could philosophize (I say this is a shout out the the ATPO board and Masq, call me deluded) all night, hell we could do it forever, huh? I don't need to eat, sleep, drink. How about you?
Lindsey: That's what I like to see, the Angel of yore. Takes no prisoners, suffers no fools, how about this? It's here, it's been here all along UNDERNEATH, you were just too damn stupid to see it.
Angel: See what?
Lindsey: The apocalypse, man. You're soaking in it.
The apocalypse, like the one in BTVS, like, every year, sometimes twice a year? Nope, we get the biggie here, the one that Angel has been daytimed for since forever.
Lindsey: You're playing for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk, and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub - Heroes don't do that. Heroes, don't accept the world the way it is, they fight it.
Angel: You're saying everything we do...it's a distraction keeping us busy from looking under the surface?
Lindsey: (snaps fingers) Ding! We have a winner. World keeps sliding towards entropy, degradation....and what do you do? You sit in your big chair, and you sign your cheques - just like the Senior Partners planned. The war's here Angel, and you're already 2 soldiers down.
Did Angel remember nothing of what he told Connor? Dammit! He used to know this stuff.
From s4 Angel: Deep Down...
Angel: "What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor. - But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be. - You're not a part of that yet. - I hope you will be. (Angel moves to stand in front of Connor) I love you, Connor. (Quietly, after a beat) Now get out of my house."
When we left Gunn he couldn't remember who he was, a problem that everyone seems to have gotten being in the Belly of the Beast. Bad things happen in Wolfram and Hart, but that doesn't mean that atonement is something that can't be chosen, it can be chosen every day. Gunn chose to stay in Lindsey's place cause when one left one had to stay and he knew that going in. He isn't the only one who forgot who they were as we can see how far Angel has strayed from the words he used with Connor. Time for some choices and maybe looking at those layers....;)
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I've missed your quotage! -- Pony, 09:06:14 04/15/04 Thu
So what do you think Angel's going to find when he starts looking? I'm still hoping we get a fuller explanation of Lindsey's plan. The way I see it the idea of the apocalypse is the same as Holland Manners version of hell - it's a process rather than an event, so that rather being about the big shiny battles it's actually about the daily choices one makes.
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an awful thought, & a word from a sponsor -- anom, 11:29:52 04/15/04 Thu
Rufus, as always, thanks for the transcription & the not-so-soft but chewy philosophical layers...somehow I don't think we're anywhere near the center yet. If there is one.
"When we left Gunn he couldn't remember who he was, a problem that everyone seems to have gotten being in the Belly of the Beast. Bad things happen in Wolfram and Hart, but that doesn't mean that atonement is something that can't be chosen, it can be chosen every day. Gunn chose to stay in Lindsey's place cause when one left one had to stay and he knew that going in."
Did Lindsey's memory return each day when he went into the basement? Will Gunn's? Does he have the choice to leave every day, knowing that if he chooses to remain he'll go through the same thing the next day? It sounds like that could be the case:
"Angel takes the medallion off of Lindsey and his memory returns, and he also remembers what has happened to his heart, day after day after day....
Lindsey: We're all going to die.
Angel: Not today.
Lindsey: No, every day."
Lindsey also says: "Just scratched the surface...turns out they can only undo you as far as you think you deserve to be undone...." Is the "undoing" separate from the torture? Or does Lindsey also think he deserves to have his heart cut out every day, & choose to stay where that will happen? If Gunn does have the choice, will he be making it because it's what he thinks he deserves it, or because it's the price he's willing to pay to give "Angel's Avengers" (hee) the chance to thwart the Senior Partners? Maybe it's a twofer....
On a lighter note:
"Lindsey: The apocalypse, man. You're soaking in it."
And it's more than just mild. Some of this board's readers may be too young to remember Madge, the manicurist who had her customers soak their fingertips in Palmolive dishwashing liquid before she did their nails. I ran out of tape (arrggh!) about halfway through the ep, so I can't check it--did anyone else get the impression Angel pulled his hand back like Madge's customer in the ad? Oh, I hope that line was deliberately meant to evoke that commercial. Angel soaking in the apocalypse, so they can file away at him...or maybe they think they've already just filed him away.
There's so much more to say, & if this week is not like the last 3 weeks, I might actually have time to say it. Especially about Escher patterns of good & evil, & sitting doing our jobs while evil goes on around us & 1/3 of the world starves...Spike of all people getting that line, can this be "that's-what-conquerors-do" Spike from Pangs talking? Well, no, of course it's not...what a difference a soul makes...but it's still a surprise that it comes from him. More later, I hope.
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Re: Philosophizing the Layers in Underneath....spoilers for Angel 5.17 -- Masq, 12:19:55 04/15/04 Thu
Angel: All how you look at the glass. You know, Lindsey, we could philosophize (I say this is a shout out the the ATPO board and Masq, call me deluded) all night, hell we could do it forever, huh? I don't need to eat, sleep, drink. How about you?
I'll take that delusion and raise it to the top of the board. It's our new slogan. Hell, it's been our slogan all along. : )
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Re: I'll third that delusion and raise you a pretension ... -- Pretentious Dedalus & Wombat, 13:22:13 04/15/04 Thu
Along with Pleasantville and the Matrix and Prometheus getting his liver pecked out every day and how I am soaking in the apocalypse every time I'm working at Borders and ask someone if they want to join our online newsletter, this Paul Tillich quote from my very own Mythic Experience is just screamingly relevant -
"Our daily life in office and home, in cars and airplanes, at parties and conferences, while reading magazines and watching television, while looking at advertisements and hearing radio, are in themselves continuous examples of a life which has lost the dimension of depth. It runs ahead, every moment is filled with something which must be done or said or planned. But no one can experience depth without stopping and becoming aware of himself. Only if he has moments in which he does not care about what comes next can he experience the meaning of this moment here and now."
Ded
P.S. Damn I hate reality television.
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Re: I'll third that delusion and raise you a pretension ... -- Masq, 14:02:35 04/15/04 Thu
Only if he has moments in which he does not care about what comes next can he experience the meaning of this moment here and now.
Sunshine. Rock overlooking evergreen-filled valley. Napping. *No cares*
Been there.
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Hey! Wombat is cuddly, not pretentious. -- Old One, 18:59:55 04/15/04 Thu
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Re: I'll third that delusion and raise you a pretension ... -- Rob, 21:09:28 04/19/04 Mon
Prometheus getting his liver pecked out every day
*smacks himself on the head* Totally missed that reference!
Rob
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The value of philosophy (beyond using the big books as doorstops) spoilers for Angel 5.17 -- Rufus, 17:27:31 04/15/04 Thu
Oh dear I made a few spelling mistakes didn't I. That was to the ATPO board.
Now to value. Angel has been in a holding pattern busy signing checks behind the big desk. His moments outside that task are the most rewarding but he has convinced himself that he is doing the right thing by being a bureaucrat while his connection to the living world becomes more and more tenuous. Angel no longer closely examines his own life beyond the repetative task of working for the bad guys. Lindsey first mentions the glass of water perspective thing and Angel throws it back at him as a barb. When Angel mentions philosophizing, it is with contempt over wasting time overthinking things. Then Lindsey makes what should have been obvious, clear to Angel. Once Angel stopped the quest to know himself as well as being heroic, he lost the passion to do what is best for everyone.
Lindsey: World keeps sliding towards entropy, degradation - and what do you do? You sit in your big chair and you sign your cheques...just like the Senior Partners planned.
Angel in not examining his life ended up doing little more than going through the motions without any purpose. The world kept degrading and he kept signing. It's Lindsey who reminded him what heroes do...
You're playing for the bad guys (their game and Angel continues to play it their way) Every day you sit behind your desk and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub...Heroes don't do that, heroes don't accept the world the way it is, they fight it.
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We know what we are, but know not what we may be. Shakespeare
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Angel has moments when we see just how much he has to work with in the brain department. Angel showed a compassion for Gunn that got the lawyer/muscle moving again. But he does tend to fall prey to his own impatience to get the job done and move onto the next thing. This is why he has been soaking in the apocalypse, it has been around him all the time and he couldn't see past his own problems to notice. Every character made the choice to be where they are at this moment, they just didn't realize the cost.
From The Matrix: Revolutions
Smith/Oracle: Why, Mr. Anderson, why? Why, why do you do it? Why, why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something, for more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is, do you even know? Is it freedom or truth, perhaps peace - could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson, vagaries of perception. Temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself. Although, only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson, you must know it by now! You can't win, it's pointless to keep fighting! Why, Mr. Anderson, why, why do you persist?
Neo: Because I choose to.
Choice, it goes for atonement, and it also can be the start of change for better or worse. For Angel he has to think about "knowing" himself, then making the choice to do what the Heroes do best...choose to fight.
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Being a Hero -- Claudia, 15:50:50 04/16/04 Fri
"For Angel he has to think about "knowing" himself, then making the choice to do what the Heroes do best...choose to fight."
But why does Angel have to be a Hero? Why can't he just have a life? Why can't all of them have a life? Isn't that more important?
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Re: Being a Hero -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:16:07 04/16/04 Fri
For Angel, at least, not being a hero would require distancing himself from his feelings of guilt over the Angelus days and his innate desire to not see people suffering. I, personally, don't think Angel would be happy leading a life where there were people in trouble and he couldn't help them (see "I Will Remember You" for example).
And, even if Angel could just get over his desire to help people, that doesn't necessarily make having a life more important. Sure, it would be great for him, but the rest of the people in the Buffyverse wouldn't be too happy.
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Re: Being a Hero -- LittleBit, 16:19:49 04/16/04 Fri
"Why can't he just have a life? Why can't all of them have a life?"
This got me to thinking, sure, why can't they all? Let's not limit this to the Buffyverse. Why can't all the characters in all the television shows just have lives? Normal lives. Lives with things like getting up and going to work, cooking dinner, cleaning the house, doing a little reading, attending classes. studying, having trivial conversations with friends and acquaintances, job-hunting...things we see very little of as they hover on the fringes of the larger-than-life living usually portrayed.
In short, lives that are a fairly direct reflection of the lives many of us lead. Lives that don't have a 'crisis of the week' or things that need doing so that society can continue. No monsters, no little dramas, just day-to-day everyday living. No contrived 'reality' shows with situations that are far removed from reality and 'having a life'.
If they were to do that then I would submit that the long term outcome is that there would be nothing of interest to watch, nothing to engage the mind, nothing to be bothered about. Just mundane protrayals of things we could see by looking around us. No need to watch a TV show for that. We all know that "Doublemeat Palace" has often been considered "Best. Episode. Ever." And then... we would all have lives. And those lives wouldn't include watching television, nor discussing the nuances and depths and layers of shows.
The characters on these shows don't "have lives" for a reason. It's because they aren't depicting reality. They're showing us a world where the things that 'go bump in the night' really do go bump in the night, and quite often bumping turns to killing. Things that aren't controllable by any conventional means. So we are given 'heroes' and 'champions'...people who take on the burden of fighting those demons so others can 'have lives' in peace, or at least relative safety. That's why Buffy had to be hero. That's why Angel needs to be a champion. The tale is mythological in its telling, and myths aren't centered on jes' plain folks. They're written around those who transcend the mundane, who do things out of the ordinary. And no, those people, those heroes and champions, don't get to "just have a life."
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I keep thinking of Darla's reply to the geek vamp in the Trial: "It's Mythic!" -- Rufus, 19:18:24 04/16/04 Fri
The hell for Lindsey was a place that numbs the mind and then tears your heart out. No surprise that Gunn said the exact same stuff to Zach that Lindsey had earlier, hell is no change, infinate sameness. That is why what Lindsey says later is so important.
Lindsey: You're playing for the bad guys. Every day you sit behind your desk, and you learn a little more how to accept the world the way it is. Well, here's the rub - Heroes don't do that. Heroes, don't accept the world the way it is, they fight it.
I think of the comment about starving kids that Spike made earlier in the show and consider the big picture with Angel. Angel wanted to change the world but he was so busy trying to do the most with one pen stroke that he lost sight of the living of life and the consequencese of what he does. Look at how awful the consequences were for Gunn by signing just one paper, a paper he knew on a level meant suffering for someone else. Again to the philosophizing, Angel may brood but what quality does that brooding contain if it is ultimately self-centered (he isn't the only character guilty of being self-centered this season). He had something right in Epiphany...
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
The Senior Partners are just playing the same game (version #5) of the same old thing they started with and that's distracting Angel from noticing the big picture by screwing with him. If bringing back Darla didn't work then they just moved onto something else. They scored big when they could use his own son to screw him around. This is where he ends up each season, distracted from what he should do until he figures it out. He lost sight of how the smallest thing could reap unexpected rewards or pain. Back to The Matrix: Revolutions.......
The Architect: You played a very dangerous game.
Oracle: Change always is.
Now back to living a life. Angel is living his life, life is what you do all the time not just little day trips or vacations. Everything Angel does is Angel living his life. As a hero he does things that change how we all think of living our own lives, challenges what we think of as good enough.
Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.
Now it's time for Angel to really play the game daring to change the rules, make a difference by believing he can.
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Hero -- Claudia, 14:12:23 04/17/04 Sat
But why must Angel be a hero? Why is it so important to him . . . or to the audience for that matter, for him to be a hero? Why can't he just be Angel and lead his own life? Being a hero will not make up for his past crimes. Nor will it ever get rid of the guilt. Why do we need heroes . . . or champions for that matter?
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A few things -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:34:51 04/17/04 Sat
1) For the sake of their fictional world, heroes are needed to keep it a safe place for the denizens there-in.
2) If they weren't heroes, we wouldn't get all the cool fight scenes, suspense, and emotional reactions.
3) Angel needs to be a hero because it makes him feel good. If you honestly believe Angel doesn't enjoy helping people, then I would have to say you don't know the character very well.
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Angel Needs To Be A Hero Because... -- AngelVSAngelus, 10:35:58 04/18/04 Sun
There are far too few of them in the real world.
I've got this crazy notion that our fiction is the contemporary incarnation of mythology. As such it reflects the society in which we live. Angel finds himself faced with exaggerations of the problems that we face everyday, and contrary to many here, he decides to do something about them.
Its important that Angel be a hero because people need to see that its possible to surmount these issues and triumph. Its not seperate from reality either, that choice. We can go on living our lives out in complacency, or we can TRY to live as if the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. Angel's M.C. Escher perspective speech rang very true to me. I hope it does to others.
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Exaggerated Form -- Claudia, 08:10:18 04/19/04 Mon
"Its important that Angel be a hero because people need to see that its possible to surmount these issues and triumph."
In such an exaggerated form? I don't think so. In fact, I don't think that people really need myths or stories or the adulation of real-life personages to make an attempt to surmount such issues. Such stories are entertaining, but I think that in the end, people need to look inside themselves and find out whether or not they have the strength to surmount or endure their own tribulations or the odds.
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Pure rubbish, Claudia -- Pip, 11:44:45 04/19/04 Mon
I don't think that people really need myths or stories or the adulation of real-life personages to make an attempt to surmount such issues.
Go read some history. You'll find every single society we have any kind of record of has had myths. Every human society tells stories. Every country has its heroes.
A question for you, for a change - if myths and stories and heroes are not really needed, why then are they universal among human societies?
G.K. Chesterton said it best:
Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.
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Isn't this a rather functional explanation? -- Rahael, 00:15:31 04/20/04 Tue
I tend to like the explanation that we like beautiful things, that we need beautiful things like art. There can be a functional purporse, but i think there are so many multiple interpretations possible of a theme or a storyline or a narrative that it is difficult to ascribe to it a consistent functional purpose for all people. Especially when pointing to narratives that travel around.
But I should say that I'm not a Campbellist. Very much not.
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Telling stories is a function of being human (Minor spoiler Ats S5 Shells) -- Pip, 11:41:04 04/20/04 Tue
I tend to like the explanation that we like beautiful things, that we need beautiful things like art.
Well, all art is not beautiful. There's a long tradition of the grotesque in drama, for example. Narrative stories can aim to evoke horror. The art of Bosch isn't beautiful (IMO). I'd agree that the 'hero's journey' archetype probably doesn't fit all stories, though I have to say I've never yet managed to reach the end of Campbell's book - so I'm not entirely sure. :-) What's consistent isn't a story theme, but Story. Not one heroic type, but A Hero. Not mythic archetypes, but Myth itself.
In Shells, Illyria is disparaging about humans. You are deceivers. In a black and white world, telling lies is wrong. But I think that line is in there because Knox is accidentally saying something fundamental about humans. He's an unreliable narrator, so he calls us 'sneaky'. He says They deserve to be punished [for their sneakiness].
But 'deceiving' is our true power. Very small children start only able to tell truth; then they begin to grasp the idea that yes, they might have eaten the chocolate cake, but you can say you haven't. They discover that there are two worlds. The world-as-it-is, and the world-as-it-is-told.
The world-as-it-is-told is ... different. It can reflect the world-as-it-is exactly, or it can reflect the way things should have been, or it can reflect the way that makes events easier to understand (textbooks are that type of story). Most powerfully, it can reflect not world-as-it-is, but world-as-it-ought. Myth. Story. Heroes. Art. They are all the world-as-it-is-told. How many times have you asked a small child 'are you telling me stories?' 'Are you making this up?'
'I didn't eat the chocolate cake'. 'I'm going to watch people walk on Mars'. Both of the previous sentences are lies. But one might be dragged kicking and screaming out of the world-as-it-is-told into the world-as-it-is.
So, yes, art can be functional, art can be beautiful, art can evoke horror. Art can be, quite simply, fun. And art is universal - even if it's in the rather simple story form of 'No, I didn't catch any fish. This HUGE fish came along and it was so big, it broke my line.' [Ultimately, Herman Melville comes along and turns this into Moby Dick {g}] We can decide that the world-as-it-is-told should be beautiful. And that we like to look at beautiful things. That's also part of it. Nothing wrong with painting a world-as-it-is-told where 'I saw mountains, and they are amazingly beautiful'.
But ultimately it all has purpose. It is created because we are human; because we are deceivers, because we can see those two worlds, not just one. Which is why I said that the original statement that I don't think that people really need myths or stories ... was pure rubbish. It is pure rubbish - I have no idea where the human race would be if it were purely literal; if it could only verbalise or picture the things-that-are. But it wouldn't be where it is now, our current society, our current technology, our current world.
So myth and story and heroes and art are functional in the sense that they're a function of being human. They tell us who we are - and they are what we are. People don't need myths? If Claudia thinks of 'myth' as something 'old and not true', Claudia might have an argument. Me, I think myths are not necessarily old, and quite often true. 'Myth' is also the story of 'the poor kid who manages to finish High School and gets a tuition scholarship and waits tables to get through college and then gets a good job and lives happily ever after.' That's a modern myth. It's also true, for a lot of people. And that myth probably encouraged quite a few people to finish High School and apply for that scholarship ...
You are deceivers.
That we are. That's how humans came to rule this world. We told ourselves lies, and then we made them be truth.
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I'll agree with your qualifiers -- Rahael, 12:04:04 04/20/04 Tue
But i do not necessarily think that art is universal. I think it can be reinterpreted, and I think it can be enjoyed and viewed again and again, but the meaning drawn will depend on the circumstances.
When I said that it brings something beautiful into our lives, I included the 'ugly'. I think the ugly can be beautiful. I think art can frame ugliness, and make it beautiful. Ugliness must be able to be transformed into beauty, otherwise, what can all the people with ugly lives do? (Herbert asked, "Is there in truth, no beauty?"
Did Illyria really say that about humans? That reminds me of Galaxy Quest!! (great movie).
I think producing art is a part of being human but when I used the word 'functional', I meant more the way that some schools only see utiltarian purposes in various human activities.
They'll analyse violence in a functional way to explain that it's a safety valve that keeps society harmonious. Stories tell us about our society, and perform other useful functions for us, etc.
But this doesn't explain for example the many times when society breaks down - if everything is so functional, how come dysfunction occurs (and not even functional dysfunction like days of misrule!)
I think 'hero narratives' can exclude. I think they can be elitist. I think some stories and some forms of art aren't there to be universal, but to be exclusive.
I wasn't disagreeing with your disagreement as such, but looking for a different phrasing.
But I wouldn't go to art in order to be a better person or to be a 'hero', in actual fact. Art is ambiguous. And authors can create something better than themselves while at the same time being quite shocking human beings.
I think art needs to be approached critically, in that sense, because I think they can contain ambiguous values, and because people can find almost anything they want to in there. This doesn't mean that art can't depict something wonderful - generosity, compassion, kindness. But the Bible could say a thousand times, to love the people around you, and people still use it to justify terrible things.
Art can sometimes transcend their local situations, and sometimes it can't (Merchant of venice. jane Austen's values, to name but two)
Oh, and I say that art isn't universal because I come to most western art as a foreigner. I don't think it is universal. To appreciate Shakespeare, as a text, needs a certain amount of familiarity with conventions. He's inspired people all over the world but it does take work. It took work to approach all my favourite texts. To understand in new ways, not just my own subjective reactions (which I value equally, of course).
Art, like the past, can be a foreign country.
Excuse this disjointed reply. Am writing hurridly as I need to be elsewhere soon. Look forward to continuing it as it's something I find enormously interesting.
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You've answered your own question -- Old One, 20:27:38 04/19/04 Mon
Such stories are entertaining...
There ya go--that's why Angel needs to be a hero. Who wants to watch some broody vampire guy work the night shift at the local canning factory?
Seriously, why do you watch this show?
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Right ! -- Rahael, 00:16:47 04/20/04 Tue
That's what I think the purpose of art is. The fun.
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Though -- Rahael, 00:23:42 04/20/04 Tue
Have you seen some British soaps? Shows that dreary can be entertaining too!
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Re: A few things -- Claudia, 08:02:30 04/19/04 Mon
"1) For the sake of their fictional world, heroes are needed to keep it a safe place for the denizens there-in.
2) If they weren't heroes, we wouldn't get all the cool fight scenes, suspense, and emotional reactions.
3) Angel needs to be a hero because it makes him feel good. If you honestly believe Angel doesn't enjoy helping people, then I would have to say you don't know the character very well."
Like Little Bit's answer, this one is good from a fictional point-of-view. But how is being a "hero" or "champion" is going to help characters like Angel, Spike, Buffy, the Scoobies and the Fang Gang develop?
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Because Angel wants to be a hero -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:10:28 04/19/04 Mon
Angel feels the guilt for doing so many horrible things that it's very important to him that he be on the right path, fighting the good fight. He doesn't want to hurt people, instead, he wants to help them. That seems to be all the reason he needs; he simply wants to do the right thing.
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Re: Being a Hero -- Claudia, 07:57:05 04/19/04 Mon
"So we are given 'heroes' and 'champions'...people who take on the burden of fighting those demons so others can 'have lives' in peace, or at least relative safety. That's why Buffy had to be hero. That's why Angel needs to be a champion. The tale is mythological in its telling, and myths aren't centered on jes' plain folks. They're written around those who transcend the mundane, who do things out of the ordinary. And no, those people, those heroes and champions, don't get to "just have a life.""
This is a good answer - from a mythical or fictional point of view. Now, let's assume that Jossverse was actually, Realverse. Can you tell me why we need "heroes" and "champions"?
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Re: Being a Hero -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:13:44 04/19/04 Mon
Cause there are things in this world that cause a lot of trouble (genocide campaigns, serial killers, exploitation of various forms). The majority of people are either too weak, too apathetic, or too afraid to confront them, and so someone, a hero, is needed who isn't any of those things and is willing to fight the problem and help people out.
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My Initial Thoughts or unraveling what lies underneath (spoilers for Angel 5.17) -- s'kat, 14:47:49 04/15/04 Thu
Lots to play with here. I'm just going to touch on stuff I saw in one or two viewings and off the top of my head.
1. Spike and Angel scenes - they really are playing with the idea of Spike and Angel being mirrors for one another this season. Spike seems to be as much Angel's mirror, if not more so, as Faith was Buffy's. I'd say more so - since they haven't made Spike more evil than Angel.
At any rate - if you watch the episode, note how many times the direction has Spike mirroring Angel's moves or vice-versa. Both now have the same long leather jacket. Both put their hands on their hips, one behind the other when confronting the new liason to W&H. Both react to the sunlight coming into the camero with the same expression and hand movements. It's far to exact to be coincidence. They don't fight the monster in the basement together - each takes him on separately, being thrust aside in a similar manner. The writers keep them distinct throughout - Spike makes snide remarks, Angel is quiet or just reacts to them, Angel may cross his arms in front, Spike in back. Spike drinks beer at the meeting. Angel makes a point of not drinking anything. But even the differences seem to be mirrors.
Also if you go back over their history? More mirrors. Spike is mother issues, father is completely absent until he meets Angelus, who isn't really a father so much as a brother. Angel is Daddy issues, mother is barely referenced or absent until he meets Darla, who isn't really the motherly type at that point. Spike is blond. Angel dark headed. Spike wants to kill Buffy but falls for her. Angel falls for her but then wants to kill her. Angel attempts to open the mouth of hell and gets sucked in. Spike burns up closing it.
Looking at Spike and Angel together makes me think of an MS Escher painting or one of those Yin/Yang stones with the white and black swirling around one another.
2. Speaking of Mirrors - we have Gunn and Lindsey who similarily mirror one another. Lindsey who trained for the knowledge, Gunn who has it implanted. Lindsey who uses supernatural edifies to make himself physically strong or a fighter, Gunn who is naturally strong and a good fighter. Both come from poverty. Gunn from urban. Lindsey from rural. Both find their personal hell in the area between the two : suburbia, where there is no poverty but no riches either. It's all nice and bland. And perfect.
Lindsey deliberatly betrays the senior partners and deliberately co-opts EVE, the child of the senior partners, and tries not to get in hell and has no interest in atonment. Gunn inadvertently betrays Angel and accidentally co-opts Fred, who isn't exactly Angel's child so much as little sister, and chooses to take Lindsey's place in hell to atone for what he's done.
Which brings up an interesting corollary - Eve and Fred/Illyria. Eve loses her immortality for falling for Lindsey and Lindsey has done. Fred becomes an immortal demon goddess for what Gunn has done.
3. The Joke in Wes's Dream - Wes tells a joke to Fred in his dream. The joke is about two men in a bar, one is calm, placid, gets a drink, the other falls into the earth in pain, screaming mass. The temptation is to think the two men in Wes's dream are Wes and another character. Which makes sense since that's what the writers are doing with everyone else. But think of who else is in Wes's dream and who is in the room? Fred - Illyria. So it stands to reason, that the two men in the joke are the two sides of Wes - the surface and what lies "underneath". The episode in some ways is about handling grief or the loss of someone close to you and what part you played in that loss.
In the episode Wes is not crying, he is calm, placid even, drinking. He shows little emotion except an occassional wince. (Great acting from AD btw). His body is still. But inside he's a roiling mass of pain. The man in the joke who is placid is Wes that we and Illyria see onscreen - the shell, the man who falls into the earth screaming, inconsolable and in pain - is what lies underneath. The joke - is that we feel the need to keep up the pretense. It's like Illyria states - I can't open my jaws wide enough in this form, I'm caged in this small room. Then on the roof top - your world is so small, yet you make it smaller still by choosing to live in small boxes and routines. Walling up the pain.
4. Back to Gunn and Lindsey - the hell and the torture used is interesting. Everyday they get their hearts torn out. Over and over. Yet in their surface world they have the kid, the wife, the great job - the lovely house. But each day they have to go down to the basement and have their heart ripped out in order to continue the "holding" pattern of that nice neat sheltered life in the cul-a-sac of identical homes.
Lindsey and Gunn's hell can also be interpreted as Angel's dream of mortality. Living with the blond wife who resembles Darla (or Buffy or Nina), blond son (Connor), nice job, enjoying the sunlight, cheery, but everyday getting his heart torn out for his sins - which is apt description for Angel's view of atonement. Is this hell or holding cell - truly Lindsey and Gunn's nightmare/dream or in reality Angel's? OR is it possibly a metaphor for the holding pattern Angel has been in for the last five years?
I recently rewatched Deep Space Nine, S1 episode The Emissary. In that episode Commander Sisko is forced by alien entities known as the prophets to re-examine memories. (Commander Sisko has taken over a space station at the bequest of the man, Picard, who had inadvertently caused his wife's death in an attack on his space-ship. He can't move past his anger at Picard, grief over the loss, or desire to be gone to and is reluctant to take over the space station as a result of these feelings.) Over and over again he finds himself stuck at the moment of his wife's death. Reliving it. He keeps explaining to the alien entities how humans have a linear life-span. But the entities state - how can this be, you exist in your mind, heart and soul at this one time, instant, it's the one memory you keep going back to in an endless loop - that's not linear, that's static. You choose to stay here not move on or forward. You exist here. Sisko realizes it and finally makes the break-through to move on.
I think Craft and Fain and the ME writers are examining a similar concept metaphorically in this episode. How do you deal with grief or pain? Do you remain in the moment forever? OR break from it and move on? Angel has in some ways placed himself continuously in a holding pattern. Lindsey and Gunn's holding cell is the dream Angel may have had regarding Connor and Darla which he can't let go of.
If so, it's interesting that it is Angel who tells Lindsey (in many ways his shadow self) that the life Lindsey is living is a lie. It's not real. Just as the life he gave Connor at the end of last year is a lie (literal) and the dream he hoped for and in some ways still exists in is a lie(metaphorical).
5. Fred again - in Wes's dream. Fred tells Wes to look deeper, see what's underneath the first layer. This touches on my problems with the Fred/Wes relationship which I'm beginning to suspect aren't coincidental but deliberate. I'm supposed to have problems with this relationship. Wes doesn't really know Fred, any more than Gunn did. They see the first two layers. Illyria mentions how Wes doesn't worship her. Yet, he worshipped Fred and as a result never saw beneath that first layer. In some respects, Wes knew Lilah far better than he knew Fred, perhaps because he didn't hold her in high esteem or place her on a pedestal.
In death, Fred remains in Wes' head an unknowable queen of perfection. But what if she is still inside Illyria, beneath the layers?
6. Hamilton and Eve - more mirror oppositions. Hamilton is a giant, bigger than Angel or anyone else. Eve is a tiny woman, smaller than everyone else. Hamilton exudes masculainity. Eve is all feminine - a little girl. Interesting choice of contrasts. Eve can be subdued and tortured by Harmony. Hamilton throws Harmony across the room with little effort. Eve loses her immortality because she fell in love with ex-lawyer Lindsey. Hamilton seems in some respects to resemble the attorny Gunn was emulating complete with suite and ingratiating smile.
7. Shadowselves - Lindsey has always been to some degree Angel's shadow in the series, he is very similar in some respects to the role Faith and possibly even Spike played in Buffy.
We'll see Lindsey taking the choices in ATS S1 and S2 that Angel turns down. The deal with W&H Holland Manners in Blind Date. The decision to make Darla a vampire again so she can live. Also both desire Darla. Both sleep with Eve, one loves Eve, one just fucks Eve. With Darla - same thing, one loves, one fucks. Sorry the word is actually appropriate here.
Now here's Angel pulling Lindsey out of a hell that seems in some ways to represent Angel's deepest hopes? Angel telling Lindsey the blond wife and son are lies. And then on the other side, what does Lindsey advise Angel?
He tells him the same thing that he told him in Dead End, S2 - don't play by W&H's rules, make them play by yours. The same thing Gunn says to Fred in Inside Out - flip over the playing board. And in a way it's a comment the writers may or may not be making about the world we currently find ourselves in - fight for the world you want. It may even be a shout-out to the SavingAngel folks who are fighting for quality entertainment like David against Goliath.
What Lindsey tells Angel in effect is "you sold out". I'm not sure anyone below the age of 30 can possibly understand this speech. (Although it's possible). You have to know what it is like to go to a job you "hate", work for a company that does things you *don't* believe in, and be afraid to quit. And I'm not talking about those temp jobs you get in your teens and twenties when you're trying to figure out what to do, I'm talking about a job you've had for six years, and you're stuck and scared to leave but know you should even though going is like cutting out a chunk of your heart. And you wonder how did I get here? I didn't plan on this? How do I get off this path? I have no where else to go. What will I do? Who will support me? And I don't want to give up that benefits plan.
Evil is a weird thing. Sometimes it's the evil of the everyday that gets us - the ruts we get stuck in, our comfort zone, where we stay in a holding pattern and never do anything to jump out of it. We put up with shit (sorry sort of works in this context), because we are afraid of alternatives. This shit can be anything from sexual harrassment, bullying, random insults to people around us that we choose to ignore, hurting others to climb the ladder, intolerance by our religion or our company towards people of different sexual orientation or creed or race or what have you. It's little things. Things examined for instance in Harm's Way episode 5.9. Actually Harm's Way does a lovely job of tabulating all the little things that Angel is ignoring as he signs his checks and papers and holds his meetings and grieves for his son. We think it's the melodrama -the monsters in the street, the clearly nasty people and clearly good - but to be honest, I think the writers are actually hitting at the more mundane evils that threaten to unravel us.
Just a few initial thoughts.
- shadowkat
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How come your few initial thoughts . . . -- Cheryl, 15:51:07 04/15/04 Thu
are always a million times better than anything I come up with after my many not-so-initial thoughts? ;-)
One of the reasons I look forward to posts from you and others here is that you find significance in everything ME gives us. It always makes a second (or third, or fourth) viewing that much more meaningful. Recognizing the character mirrors adds so much to the episode. I was having trouble understanding Lindsey's real purpose in this episode, but this makes it much clearer. Many thanks to s'kat, Rufus, anom (can't wait to rewatch for the "soaking in it"), ded, masq, and everyone else. This board rocks!
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Your initial thoughts.. -- Jane, 16:20:29 04/15/04 Thu
really go to the heart of the episode and through all those yummy layers. I'm going to go rewatch this tonight and look for the "Madge" moment. Thanks for this. Great episode with all sorts of stuff to philosophize about!
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Re: My Initial Thoughts or unraveling what lies underneath (spoilers for Angel 5.17) -- Doriander, 21:48:39 04/15/04 Thu
First off can I just say, "Is Lindsey home?" ["Can Linsdey come out and play?"] ROTFLMAO.
Moving on
At any rate - if you watch the episode, note how many times the direction has Spike mirroring Angel's moves or vice-versa. [...] It's far to exact to be coincidence.
[...]
Looking at Spike and Angel together makes me think of an MS Escher painting or one of those Yin/Yang stones with the white and black swirling around one another.
Yes, yes, yes. My favorite was the Eve interrogation scene in Angel's office. Angel strides in, nods to Spike, Spike nods back and they both stalk towards Eve, then corner her. Eve gets up, cue in-the-round mode as our boys virtually dance circles around her. Eve's no help, and they both sigh resignedly. Exit, frame left/right. Both sit depleted. Eve, good prop.
So much to chew on on the emphasis on staginess alone. The homage to The Truman Show/Pleasantville/The Matrix (Waiting in the Wings?). Wes and his gauzy Fred dreams. Illyria feeling boxed in. Wes, Lindsey, Lorne, and Spike speak of routines and keeping up appearnces. On first viewing the Wes-Illyria scenes came off too indulgently Shakespearean and threw off the pacing for me, but I'm wondering if that's part of it too. Even the mention of Trista and Ryan, may be alluding to the contrivance of purported reality TV. And there's Eve, whom I've now come to regard as akin to the one-note denizens of Pleasantville, which actually made her more tolerable. She's immortal, knows no more than what's allowed for her to know (ie what's scripted), fulfills her limited role. Falling in love allowed her to break out somewhat, eventually rendered her displaced. Without Lindsey she's stagnant and languishing. She's so pitiful, unbelievably more incapable than ghost Spike that she can't even lift a finger because it's OOC so other people had to do the scrambling while she can only bleat "Hurry! Cmon!"
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Another mirrored pair: Lorne and Harmony -- change, 06:45:28 04/17/04 Sat
The thing I like about this board is that reading your posts really makes me think about what the writers are trying to do. I have a little bit to add to s'kat's post.
Lorne and Harmony also mirror each other. Both of them are outsiders to the core group of Angel's Avengers. Although both Lorne and Harmony attend the AA meetings (I like that acronym), neither of them really contributes very much: Harmony sits in the corner and gets lunch (does she even take notes), and Lorne, well what does he do? While AA is suppose to be fighting the good fight against evil, Harmony is evil, and Lorne is more or less neutral. Neither of them are much good in a fight, and neither of them are used as fighters by AA. Lorne stands out from the group because he is a demon, while Harmony is differentiated because she does not have a soul. Interestingly, one way that both Harmony and Lorne have contributed to the group is by extracting information. Lorne through his empathy talent, Harmony by torturing Eve.
They are also mirror opposites to each other. Lorne looks like a demon, with the heart of an angel. Harmony is a demon who looks like an angel. Lorne is driven to help people out of compassion for them, while Harmony is driven to help people out of her own self interest (fear of retribution by Angel). Lorne is an empath who has been accepted by both the employees at Wolfram and Hart and AA, Harmony is self centered and has not been accepted by either group. Lorne is at the top of the power structure in W & H (LA branch), while Harmony is at the bottom.
Another way in which they are opposites to each other is that Harmony seems to be growing, while Lorne is being corrupted. Harmony has been shown to be more compassionate in the last few episodes. She was the one who visited Gunn in the hospital in Shells, she made an effort to be nice to the little old lady in Harm's Way (why was the old lady in the episode at all), and she even fought to protect Eve and Lorn in Underneath. At this point, vampire Harmony is nicer than the original human Harmony ever was. Lorne, on the other hand, was immediately corrupted by Wolfram and Hart the minute he walked in the door. He was the first of AA to be suborned in Home, and by Conviction he was running his department like he was born to it while the others were still trying to find their way around the office. Of all the AA's, Lorne has been the one who has been the most diverted from fighting the good fight by the distractions at Wolfram and Hart.
BTW: Has anyone else noticed that the abrievation for Angel's Avengers is the save as for Alcoholics Anonymous, and that the orignal premise for Angel was to use vampirism as a metaphore for Alcoholism?
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another aspect to Eve/Hamilton -- Seven, 12:06:31 04/17/04 Sat
great post s'kat
Just wanted to mention
Eve - single name
Marcus Hamilton - two names.
yet another opposition to the two. I suppose W&H really are going in another direction.
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Isn't it the same first name -- Pip, 14:41:15 04/17/04 Sat
.... as the guy who tortured Angel in In the Dark? Wasn't he a Marcus?
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Yes -- KdS, 02:13:40 04/18/04 Sun
And, I think, the evil necromancer in this season's second episode.
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And also note -- KdS, 02:15:03 04/18/04 Sun
In relation to the debates about Eve's nature, the ME tradition of characters identified with the supernatural world having no surname, and those identified with the human world having them.
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something else to note -- Seven, 07:54:36 04/18/04 Sun
The name "Eve" means "to breath" or life
Marcus is derived from "Mars" the god of war and death.
A forwarning of the end (THE Apocolypse?)
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Re: My Initial Thoughts or unraveling what lies underneath (spoilers for Angel 5.17) -- Rufus, 03:57:15 04/20/04 Tue
Evil is a weird thing. Sometimes it's the evil of the everyday that gets us - the ruts we get stuck in, our comfort zone, where we stay in a holding pattern and never do anything to jump out of it. We put up with shit (sorry sort of works in this context), because we are afraid of alternatives. This shit can be anything from sexual harrassment, bullying, random insults to people around us that we choose to ignore, hurting others to climb the ladder, intolerance by our religion or our company towards people of different sexual orientation or creed or race or what have you. It's little things. Things examined for instance in Harm's Way episode 5.9. Actually Harm's Way does a lovely job of tabulating all the little things that Angel is ignoring as he signs his checks and papers and holds his meetings and grieves for his son. We think it's the melodrama -the monsters in the street, the clearly nasty people and clearly good - but to be honest, I think the writers are actually hitting at the more mundane evils that threaten to unravel us.
Remember what Illyria says about routines, makes one think that the road to hell is paved with appointment books and other calendars and schedules which people live by. It's the familiarity that Angel and the gang have with what should have had them unsheathe a sword or two that prove just how stuck in the routine of the check signing and power lunch the group has become stuck in. They are in the Belly of the Beast, will they try to or even bother to try getting out? I guess that's the question that may be answered by the end of the season.
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Relating this episode to my recent thoughts (spoilers for Angel 5.17) -- Matlack73, 16:54:36 04/15/04 Thu
Lately, I've been despairing about the state of democracy in America. I think a successful democracy needs well-informed citizens who are thoughtful and not easily manipulated by images and speeches. They should feel a connection to their fellow citizens. Good citizens should never settle for simplistic explanations of complex issues. They should take the time to digest the many facets of an issue and go beyond the idea that something is right because "It works for me." I think they should also set a high bar for our society, instead of thinking that this is the way things are, this is how it's always been, and this is how it will always be. At least they should try to. I don't see many examples of good citizenship when I look around or even when I look in the mirror.
How does this tie into last night's Angel?
It ties into what Lindsey told Angel about his being so distracted by Wolfram & Hart that he does not perceive the great evil that is operating around him. Angel is disconnected from the rest of the Fang Gang, his son, and even Buffy.
I think many people are so caught up in the details of their own lives that they never see themselves as part of a society where it is important to be connected to other people. And it's hard to blame them. Working one or two jobs to earn a living, paying the rent or mortgage, making the car payments, buying groceries, paying for insurance (auto, medical, life, and home), saving for retirement, saving for your children's education, etc., doesn't leave you with much time or energy to look beyond yourself or your family. People are disconnected and they don't look at themselves as being a part of a society. They don't feel empathy for others. They are disconnected from others. It is everyman for himself (or at least himself and his family).
If this is the case, poverty, high crime, and poor healthcare becomes acceptable. The Government lying about why we go to war is acceptable because "Hey, I saved $500 on my taxes." It becomes acceptable that when companies do well, only a few executives benefit, because, "Hey, I might be an executive one day." Why bother fixing the government when it isn't worth fixing? Only people who can't make it on their own need it. Cynicism gets equated with practicality.
This is how last night's episode tied in with some of the things I have been thinking about lately.
God, I love this show.
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In total agreement, and the proof is in my post above -- AngelVSAngelus, 10:43:01 04/18/04 Sun
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Re: Relating this episode to my recent thoughts (spoilers for Angel 5.17) -- Rufus, 04:04:48 04/20/04 Tue
I think many people are so caught up in the details of their own lives that they never see themselves as part of a society where it is important to be connected to other people. And it's hard to blame them. Working one or two jobs to earn a living, paying the rent or mortgage, making the car payments, buying groceries, paying for insurance (auto, medical, life, and home), saving for retirement, saving for your children's education, etc., doesn't leave you with much time or energy to look beyond yourself or your family. People are disconnected and they don't look at themselves as being a part of a society. They don't feel empathy for others. They are disconnected from others. It is everyman for himself (or at least himself and his family).
Good way to keep people busy, make sure they have to struggle for each meal, doctors appointment, or mortgage payment. Give them just enough to be comfortable in their struggle and slip the worst you can come up with by them. Sometimes we don't surface from the struggle until our wallet is threatened. Angel and the gang keep struggling thinking just maybe they are doing something good and kidding themselves that they have while the Senior Partners throw them an occasional bone or Home for Victims of Vampire attacks while working on something that will cause much more suffering. In the Cautionary Tale of #5, we can see just the end Angel will have if he stays where he is, and the character #5 tells him just how easy it was to roll over and forget where he came from to push a mail cart through hell.
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What were the Illsey scenes about? spoilers for Angel 5.17 -- Jay, 17:38:58 04/15/04 Thu
I had a case of tired head last night, and as much as I enjoyed the episode I feel like I'm missing something. I haven't been able to re-watch the episode yet, so I'm working off a suspect memory. Weren't the scenes with Illyria and Wesley challenging each other to "leave" more specifically suicide challenges? Like I said, I need to re-watch, but if I'm right about that, why are they still around each other?
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There's a couple possibilities, but I don't think it was suicide that was intended. -- OnM, 19:23:54 04/15/04 Thu
'kat and Rufus already discussed several valid angles, here's my permutation:
Wesley wants Illyria to leave because even though Fred is 'gone', he can't 'bury' her until Illyria is physically removed from his life. So, he wants her to use her dimension-hopping abilities to take off and leave this plane of existance forever. On the other hand, he wants her to be the one to make the decision, because if he simply demands and she acceeds, then he is driving away Fred, or what tiny glimmer remains of her. It's an inherently contradictory position, and he's trying to finesse it with subtlety, and of course failing.
The same, oddly, is true for Illyria. She wants to leave the world of humans, but if she does then she has no one, not even Wesley. On the other hand, she cannot imagine that she can ever live among them, it is just too 'confining'. So, she wants humanity to decide to move away from her (as represented by Wesley), rather than forcibly removing them. The 'logic' fails again.
So, it's the same dilemma faced by both parties.
(What I found surprising was that Illyria brings up something that never occurred to me before, but is a valid question. Wesley has the ability to leave this dimension and go elsewhere if he wanted to, he has access to the necessary books/spells/techniques etc. So, indeed, why not leave?)
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Re: There's a couple possibilities, but I don't think it was suicide that was intended. -- Corwin of Amber, 20:43:11 04/15/04 Thu
Wesley has the ability to leave this dimension and go elsewhere if he wanted to, he has access to the necessary books/spells/techniques etc. So, indeed, why not leave?
Where would he go? I'd wager that every dimension would be the same...but different. Remember Pylea? Different world...two suns...but the same problems, really. When you get down to it, the Earth in the Buffyverse is just one dimension in possibly an infinite number of them, but they're all still grappling with the same problems.
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Re: There's a couple possibilities, but I don't think it was suicide that was intended. -- Rufus, 21:08:24 04/15/04 Thu
The best reason Illyria has for staying is mentioned later in the episode when she/it says that in another dimension in the current shell she/it would become prey to those she once knew. Simply, Illyria, god of gods has been knocked down enough pegs that she/it can no longer be sure of automatically winning at combat with someone of her former selfs power.
With Wesley, he has the knack of knowing exactly where he is, and he wants to remain where he feels he belongs. Add in the fact that he can't bring himself to use force on Illyria because of Fred's shell.
Amber Benson and Christopher Golden nominated for Bram Stoker Award -- KdS, 10:36:50 04/15/04 Thu
Bit out of date, but I haven't seen this announced anywhere else in BtVS fandom.
Amber Benson's and (Buffyverse novel and comic author) Christopher Golden's web animation for the BBC, Ghosts of Albion, has been nominated in the "Alternative Forms" category of the Horror Writers' Association Bram Stoker Awards. Best of luck to Amber and Christopher.
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