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OT - Underworld - a belated review (spoilers for the movie) -- Jay, 19:49:50 04/03/04 Sat

The premise of the review is a conversation between the me who has seen the movie (J) and the me who hasn't heard anything about it (JB).

J: So there's this vampires vs werewolves movie out-

JB: Vampires vs werewolves?!? Cool. I always wished that they did a little more with Oz as a werewolf on Buffy. Especially in the monster fighting arena. That movie sounds great.

J: Ya'd think so wouldn't you. But for some reason that I can't put my finger on, I really didn't like it all that much.

JB: Seriously?

J: Yeah. The movie just didn't seem all that entertaining.

JB: Where you high? Cause this one time I got high and then watched Natural Born Killers and fell asleep ten minutes in.

J: You're such a lightweight, but no, I haven't smoked pot in many months. Maybe if I told you more about the movie-

JB: Hit me with the plot outline.

J: Well, vampires and werewolves, only the werewolves are called lycans, are centuries into this blood war-

JB: Oh I gotta see this.

J: Only the vamps have had a significant advantage over the lycans for a long time so the war has more of an anti-terrorist campaign than an all out war.

JB: Hold on, are the vampires soul-less evil demons?

J: Not so much. Apparently, and I may be wrong on this, most humans can not be turned into vamps or lycans with a bite unless they are already compatible to the virus the creatures infect the victim with.

JB: Does that mean they kill the humans who aren't?

J: That's what I understand. I got a little bored to keep track of everything. Anyway, the vampires are portrayed as cold, sterile, "above it all" undead persons while lycans are portrayed as spit spewing monsters. The hero of the piece is a hot chick who is on the vampire death squad-

JB: Hot chick? Who plays her?

J: Kate Beckinsale.

JB: I can see that. She's got something.

J: Not this time. I kept thinking there should be more there, here. Back to the plot. The death squad chick falls stumbles onto a human man that the lycans are after and the dynamic of the movie is between the human who is turning into a lycan and the death squad chick.

JB: Who plays the dude?

J: Some face who was on Felicity.

JB: Never saw it.

J: You never will.

JB: I don't get why you're holding back so much on this. We got vamps, werewolves, hot chicks - I'm assuming there is more than one - some violence... are there guns?

J: Guns and the nerds to make better guns.

JB: Well there you go. Is it set on some other planet, way in the past or some distant future?

J: The are flashbacks-

JB: I love flashbacks.

J: Set in the distant past, but there are cars and other modern technologies that suggest if not today then the not distant future.

JB: How about the special effects? Is this a Teenage Werewolf movie?

J: The effects are satisfactory. The makeup, especially for the werewolves, is up to par. Even though once you've seen it, you've seen it. And the action is well choreographed. No, there is nothing to complain about the fx.

JB: Well, chief, despite your reservations, you just described a movie I want to see. And I do have questions about your tastes-

J: But, I'm you!

JB: Exactly.

J: I got me there.

JB: Bottom line. You're telling me that a movie about a war between vamps and werewolves, with hot chicks - you never confirmed whether there was more than one.

J: Not in my taste, but yeah, I guess you can say there was more than "one" hot chick.

JB: Man, that was like pulling teeth. So on top of that you have guns, violence, a fucking death squad, cool fx and - wait. Is there not a definite winner?

J: Oh, there is a winner. Possibly some peace. Possibly a sequel. I really quit caring long before the end.

JB: Dude, I don't even know who you are anymore.

J: Free speech and support Howard.

JB: Okay, I know that one of us is high now, cause I have no idea what that means.

Replies:

[> ROFL! -- an_old_one, 20:16:49 04/03/04 Sat

Thanks, Jay. I was wondering whether to bother seeing that or not. Think I'll give it a miss...

;o)

[> The biggest problem with UW was...(*spoilers for uw*) -- Corwin of Amber, 20:46:45 04/03/04 Sat

that they should have told the story from the point of view of Michael, the pretty boy who ended up becoming both a vampire and a werewolf. He had his whole life ruined, just because he stopped to help someone he saw get shot on the train. That would have been a lot more interesting than the story they did tell.

I was looking really hard for a good movie in that one, but I ended up glad I saw it at the five buck matinee.

[> Even more OT - Unfaithful (spoilers for the movie) -- Jay, 23:12:00 04/03/04 Sat

The conservation shifts to Unfaithful.

J: So there's this woman's movie-

JB: Out!

J: Don't be like that. It's not a bad movie.

JB: Uh-huh.

J: I'll admit the first half is barely watchable, sex being it's only saving grace, but the second half is really good.

JB: Uh-huh.

J: Okay, the ending is sucky but the part between the first half and the ending is really good.

JB: Uh-huh.

J: First of all the movie stars Diane Lane, you'll remember her fr-

JB: Lorry from Lonesome Dove? The whore who Captain Gus McCray would split the cards with for a poke? She is awesome!

J: You won't be disappointed here. She is as beautiful as ever and even shows some nudity.

JB: Hey YA!

J: She plays the housewife of a hard working provider type who she cheats on with a young artistic Frenchie.

JB: The husband must be some kind of tool.

J: Yeah, he's played by Richard Gere, who has been begging to be cuckolded for 25 years.

JB: Beautiful. It's sounding better and better. You say his wife needs to search out a dirty Frenchman to fuck her proper.

J: Yep. Not to spoil, but there is a fight scene later in the movie and the dirty Frenchman upholds the French fighting reputation as perfectly as one could.

JB: Does he quit before the fight starts, or does he get his ass kicked promptly?

J: Both.

JB: You seem to be down on the first half of the movie despite promised nudity from Diane Lane. What's wrong with you? Or it.

J: Well, as much as Richard Gere deserves to be humiliated onscreen for all his past movie crimes, in this flick he plays what appears to be a kind, respectful, hard working - so his wife doesn't have to - family man.

JB: Oh God, you mean if this was real life, she'd be one of those ex-wives that took over half of everything even though he never had time to fuck up like she did just so he would be able to provide for her so she could fuck up like she did?

J: I'm not touching that run on sentence.

JB: You're right, that does suck. How good does the second half get?

J: Surprising violence. Tense moments o' plenty. It doesn't make the movie a must see, but if you see it, this is what you'll be watching for.

JB: Fair enough. Hey! Remember from Lonesome Dove when Gus told Call that "We don't rent pigs." There just isn't anything about that line that isn't funny to me.

J: You fucking hick.

[> LOL! (spoilers here as well) -- BrianWilly, 19:22:57 04/04/04 Sun

I liked Underworld enough, but I agree that it had SO MUCH POTENTIAL but never got around to displaying a fair amount of it. Aristicratic vampiric elite overlording over and exterminating the social underdogs...er, wolves living in their dank sewers? Star-cross'd lovers thrown in the mix? Matrix-style leather and hi-tech weaponry? By Buddha, the script practically writes itself!

But then they never really get very far INTO it, instead wasting time on a pointless "triangle" between Selene and the the two vampire bosses and not showing enough heads being chopped off. Yes, I'm saying it right now, if ever there was an action movie which needed MORE action and less with the talking, Underworld would be it.

Ah well. It was decent enough, like I said. I hear they're making a sequel though...hope they can learn from some of this first film's flaws.

[> One of my biggest beefs with "Underworld" was its use of guns -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:54:16 04/04/04 Sun

What's the point of having superpowerful beings collide if all they're going to do is shoot at each other like any human would? Where's the hand-to-hand? At the very least, they could've put in some bullet-time sequences to liven things up.

I also thought it could have used a humor injection. Everything was taken so deadly serious that it got pretty boring when you didn't care for the characters or the action scenes. The line about bullets and interrogating werewolves was pretty much the only successfully funny thing in the whole movie.

[> A Quick Summary of Underworld -- Majin Gojira, 12:56:04 04/05/04 Mon

"I am Kate Beckinsale! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Everyone in this movie is a Jerk! The End!" - my good friend Ian.
Wonderfalls cancelled -- radioreverie, 04:07:26 04/04/04 Sun

Well, I guess after the last episode of Angel I can finally sell my tv.

The show had its flaws, but Fox didn't give it any time to find its footing or its audience.

Replies:

[> What!? Already? Sheesh.. -- Jane, 05:52:20 04/04/04 Sun

Guess Fox was just kidding when they said they were giving it a new night. Add Fox to my list of networks to avoid. Would someone please tell the programming idiots in TVland that we don't all have the IQs of a turnip.

[> [> IQs of a turnip -- Gyrus, 07:06:08 04/05/04 Mon

Would someone please tell the programming idiots in TVland that we don't all have the IQs of a turnip.

Which was exactly the problem with the new timeslot. If they had put WONDERFALLS on opposite some stupid reality show, WF probably would have done OK because there wouldn't have been a lot of overlap between the 2 audiences. Putting it on opposite the relatively intelligent CSI, on the other hand, forced smarter viewers to choose between the two shows.

[> Tim Minear speaks about cancellation -- Ann, 06:52:17 04/04/04 Sun

From http://www.timminear.net/archives/press/000064.html posted Apr. 3

Well, not sure what to tell ya'll -- but we're cancelled. Effective at once. The cow creamer will be silent this Thursday and forever forward.

Once we recover from the not-shock, Todd, Bryan and I will see if there's some venue in which to air the remaining episodes. As I have said from the start, the thirteen taken as a whole tell a story and go to a place, so a run of this "limited" series would not be unsatisfying elsewhere. It's a question as to whether the studio will want to invest in a DVD release of a failed series. Maybe the episodes will sit in a warehouse someplace with that sled and the arc of the covenant.

Thanks for all the support and enthusiasm.

Tim


So sad.

[> Any word on what the ratings for Wonderfalls were? -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:02:24 04/04/04 Sun

Or what they're bringing in to replace it?

[> [> Yes from Zap2it -- Ann, 08:06:57 04/04/04 Sun

"At 9 p.m., CBS stayed in front as "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation" earned a big 16.2/25 for the hour. NBC stayed a competitive second with the 12.9/20 for "The Apprentice." Third went to the 4.6/7 for ABC's "Extreme Makeover," which left UPN's "Smackdown" in fourth. Moving to Thursday didn't provide the necessary tonic for the FOX's "Wonderfalls," which fell to a 2.1/3. The WB remained in sixth with the 1.6/3 average for two episodes of "The Jamie Kennedy Experiment." "

[> Re: Wonderfalls cancelled -- Ames, 08:10:57 04/04/04 Sun

That's a real shame. I like Wonderfalls. Does that mean they won't finish showing the 13 episodes already made? Oh well - maybe we'll get DVDs, or Space will eventually broadcast them like they've done for other cancelled series like Firefly.

It really makes you think that something is wrong with the whole business model of television, doesn't it? It must be a big waste of time and money and creative talent to keep launching new series like this, not give them a proper chance, and then cancel them. Meanwhile the viewing audience like us wants to see these shows, has money to spend, and can't find the product.

I guess there are already plenty of shows that are made for syndication with a smaller budget. Maybe the problem with the network/studio system is that actors and producers and directors are expecting big $ from day 1. If the show doesn't hit right away, the network can't afford to give it time.

Maybe we need a "made for internet" model in the future that bypasses a lot of the intermediate stages and goes straight to the audience who eventually buys the DVDs right now.

[> Re: Wonderfalls cancelled -- CW, 08:45:51 04/04/04 Sun

It's certainly a shame. I thought Thursday's episode was particularly good. I knew the ratings that night weren't at all good, but then with only one or two episodes of "The Apprentice" left, I thought Fox might try to tough it out for a few weeks. Put Tru Calling in the same slots and it would have had the same rating problems. I guess it's always possible that a key sponsor said 'enough.'

I can't understand why FOX bothers with shows it essentially has no faith in. Wonderfalls and that awful pick-the-straight-guy reality thing were replacements for shows that didn't make it either. You can't expect mid-season replacements to really take off unless they're shown in a dead spots in the schedule for all networks like Buffy was. Even Buffy had problems when Ally McBeal started up later in the same time slot. Buffy moved to Tuesday and Ally McBeal ran out of gas before Buffy did.

[> Tim says we can send postcards to 20th Century Fox, not to save the show, but... -- Rob, 09:16:07 04/04/04 Sun

....to show the company that there is interest in a DVD release of the 13 episodes.

Post at buffistas.org:

In terms of "saving" the show? Not really anything you can do. The network is a non-starter here. The studio, 20th, is possibly a different matter. If they get the sense that people would buy a complete series DVD set, it might happen that the series becomes available in future. But please don't waste your time or money on trying to revive "Wonderfalls" for a pick-up with Fox. Ain't gonna happen.

When we first began this series, I was asked by many why I would put my trust in the network that mishandled "Firefly" so terribly. Well, because it felt different to me. Initially, there was real excitement and belief in "Wonderfalls" at the network. My feeling with "Firefly" was always that since they didn't much like or understand it from the brilliant pilot, that we were kind of doomed. I felt that if a network didn't believe in a show, no matter its potential, that it couldn't launch it or sell it with any measure of success.

And again, "Wonderfalls" felt totally different to me. At first. Then, at some point in the process, I could sense an erosion in enthusiasm. Even as we were finding our footing and delivering to them some really exceptional episodes (ones you never got to see!), things got chilly. Then they couldn't seem to find any place on the schedule for us. Then they did... and it was Friday night. I tell you now, the moment that was announced, I knew it was over. They were dumping us into Friday nights and that was that. When the smashing reviews started coming in... and coming and coming and coming... I think they didn't know what to think or do. You have but one chance to make a good first impression. But they'd given up on the show before it ever aired, and even when the lion's share of critics were hailing the show, it was too late for them to backtrack and launch the series with any kind of conviction. My "Firefly" experience was repeating itself. I think it was USA Today that said this may be "the wrong show, in the wrong season, on the wrong night, on the wrong network." Just so. I do think market forces were at work here, too. Not just incompetence.

I don't know if any network could have brought an audience to this show. Certainly no network that dumped it on Friday night, promoted it in such as way as to try and trick people into thinking it was "Dawson's Creek," or that didn't, apparantly, agree with the things the critics were saying about it. I do think any network wants whatever they pay for to be a success. I don't think they MEAN to strangle something in the crib. I know that the next time I shop something to a network, I'm going to hope to find a network that understands and believes in the thing they ordered. And if they thought it looked good on the menu, I'd hope they'd still have a taste for it once it got to the table.

There's a whole 'nother half of this post... but I deleted it.

Twice burned, me.

[> [> Oh, and vote at tvshowsondvd.com! -- Rob, 09:27:54 04/04/04 Sun

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com is a site with info and news on TV shows on DVD, and beyond that is actually a very well-known site in the industry. Votes on this site are among the reasons many shows (some very short-running) that had loyal fan bases are on DVD, such as Roswell and Freaks and Geeks. What you do on this site is you first register, and then you can place a vote for any TV show that has ever been on the air. I just voted, and Wonderfalls has had 219 votes so far. So even if you're not gonna spend money on sending in postcards, at least take the time to vote for the show at this site.

Rob

[> [> I think the problem with FOX is that they aren't sure what network they want to be -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:57:07 04/04/04 Sun

On the one hand, they take chances on unusual premise dramas like "Wonderfalls", "Firefly", "Tru Calling", and "John Doe", as well as some very non-tradtional comedies ("Malcolm in the Middle" and (my new favorite sitcom) "Arrested Development" come to mind). On the other hand, many of these shows end up cancelled. I honestly think the people in charge of FOX are divided about whether they want to resemble smaller networks like WB, UPN, or even, *gasp*, cable channels, or whether they want to fit into the ABC/NBC/CBS mold. Until FOX settles on a direction, I think we'll see them continue to take the initial chance on shows like "Wonderfalls" or "Firefly", but not really put a whole lot of faith in them (their bizarro comedies, on the other hand, have gained enough initial support that they're far more generous with them).

[> [> [> I think the problem with FOX is that someone has a very short attention span -- Vickie, 19:06:43 04/04/04 Sun


[> [> [> [> A short attention span? Oh, c'mon, that's ridicu... ooo, lookit the grouse!! -- OnM, 20:40:52 04/04/04 Sun


[> [> [> [> [> Shouldn't that be a duck?? -- LadyStarlight, 16:26:19 04/05/04 Mon


[> [> [> [> [> [> w/the content of this thread, i think grouse is more appropriate @>) -- anom, 07:29:16 04/08/04 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nyuk nyuk nyuk! ;-) -- T3E, 18:39:33 04/08/04 Thu


[> [> [> I think the problem with FOX is that they suck eggs like nobody's business. -- BrianWilly, 19:12:10 04/04/04 Sun

Oops, was that out loud('_')?

[> [> [> [> It was, so in honor of Easter and sucking eggs -- Ann, 19:50:52 04/04/04 Sun

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiEGGSUCK.html
by Johnny Cash.

And for an egg sucking technique that Fox may have mastered see
http://www.beckyhaycox.com/craftsite/egg.html

[> [> [> [> Let me ask you this, then: -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:42:28 04/04/04 Sun

Which sucks more, the channel which picks up "Wonderfalls" and "Firefly" and cancels them, or the channels which refused to pick them up in the first place?

[> [> [> [> [> That's like asking if... -- BrianWilly, 23:24:32 04/04/04 Sun

That's like asking if I'd rather be ignored or betrayed. If I had to pick, I guess that the network which didn't do its job sucks more...and fairly promoting/backing its own shows is a network's job. From what Tim has said, it didn't look like either has happened.

What's gonna take its timeslot, I wonder? A crappy reality show? Joy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I agree...Fox may put on innovative shows for short periods of time... -- Rob, 08:00:23 04/05/04 Mon

....but they lack the conviction, intelligence, and respect for their viewers to keep them on when they don't immediately perform well, which is particularly frustrating when the network has handled the show and its advertisements poorly to begin with. I personally give no credit to FOX for putting Wonderfalls and Firefly on the air and then unceremoniously dumping them. I give major credit to ABC, for having renewed Alias for a fourth season, even though the show has always had low ratings, due to its loyal audience. The network would rather have this unusual, creative show unlike anything else on TV and pull in an audience unlike that which they have for their other programming, as small as it may be, than cancel the show to put in a cheaper, dumber series with more potential for a larger audience. That is integrity.

Rob

[> Why can't they at least show the remaining eps that are already in the can? -- Merle, 11:37:43 04/04/04 Sun

Jewel Staite was supposed to be in eps 9-13, maybe more and I don't have the bandwidth to download eps. Now I have to wait for the Firefly film to see her again? What a world!

[> [> Who knows, maybe they've got a replacement for the midseason replacement -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:52:27 04/04/04 Sun


[> [> William Sadler posted about that on his site. It costs about $2 million per episode... -- Rob, 14:16:42 04/04/04 Sun

....so you'd think it would be in their best interest to just air the episodes, and not flush that $18 million down the toilet.

Rob

[> [> [> Tossing out the baby with the bath water -- punkinpuss, 14:50:04 04/04/04 Sun

They won't air remaining eps if they can get their ad quotas met by any old or new piece of crap they've got lying around, ie., reality show Forever Eden.

Seems to me that Fox seriously misread the show. They expected it to skew towards the same demos as Tru Calling (females 18-34 & 18-49). But TM has already been very forthcoming about how badly WF did with females in early focus groups. Fox knew that and were thus at a complete loss about how to market the show. It's gotten the same kinds of vague promos that Firefly got.

When a network doesn't know how to market a show, it's sunk. They base their advertising sales on what demos they think the show will bring in. If they don't meet those demographic quotas, they're contractually obligated to make it up to those advertisers by giving them freebies elsewhere on the schedule (make-goods). 18 mil is a pittance by network standards. Yes, they'd toss out the baby with the bath water. Par for the course with these barracudas.

[> [> [> Re: William Sadler posted about that on his site. It costs about $2 million per episode... -- Anny, 17:01:47 04/04/04 Sun

So,they've thrown out more than 18 M ...You have to wonder how this network is directed because if they are producing shows like FF or WF,knowing they wont find enough viewers to attract advertisers,then they deserve to find a new job and pronto.I'm going to be cynical,but you were lucky to watch at least 4 eps because if FOX was under a good management,shows like this would never appear on screen.It's called wasting money.

[> An on-line petition to get Wonderfalls on DVD... -- Rob, 20:44:05 04/04/04 Sun

Don't know how much good this particular one will do, but it can't hurt to sign.

http://www.petitiononline.com/goodtv/petition.html

Rob

[> [> Oops bad link.. Try this one... -- Rob, 20:45:22 04/04/04 Sun

http://www.petitiononline.com/goodtv/petition.html

[> News for Canadian Wonderfalls fans. -- AurraSing, 09:25:31 04/05/04 Mon

A fellow poster over at the TrekBBS pointed this out:

I just got off the phone with my local Global TV affiliate. While the network is tied to the Fox broadcast of Wonderfalls -- which means they won't be able to continue running the show now that Fox has cancelled it, the programming person tells me that Global execs are possibly considering buying the series, at the very least to complete its run.

Apparently, while the show tanked in the US (ratings-wise), it was considered a break out hit here in Canada.

If you are in Canada, and you're a Wonderfalls fan, I urge you to call your local Global affiliate ASAP and express your support of the show. It won't do our American friends much good, sadly, but at least it might impact whether we're able to see the rest of the series up here. There is also always a remote chance that production could continue in Canada, a la Due South, though I couldn't get the Global person to say whether that's on the table or not (she probably wouldn't know anyway).

Cheers!

Alex

I've already emailed Global Calgary (the closest station and one I do watch) and will try phoning as well. Can't hurt,can it?

[> [> Ooooh! -- Rob (fingers crossed), 09:53:18 04/05/04 Mon

That would be awesome!! And even if it didn't air in the U.S., hey that's what file sharing is for. ;-)

Rob

[> [> [> Ahem... -- Rob, 10:05:01 04/05/04 Mon

....not that I download copyrighted material on-line.

Because that would be wrong. :-D

Rob

[> [> [> [> LOL -- AS, 10:41:12 04/05/04 Mon

We would not want to inspire naughtiness now, would we???

*veg*

[> [> [> [> Well ... -- Pip, 10:22:03 04/06/04 Tue

If they'd develop a legal download system, some highly hypothetical person wouldn't need to ::ahem:: download programs (before they do buy the DVD and so pay the copyright holders).

Because this hypothetical person can't actually legally get hold of the things until they come out on DVD over a year later. Or until they get shown on UK terrestrial for the first time over *two* years after the US broadcast.

I'd pay 2 to 3 dollars per ep. And then we wouldn't need the networks at all, would we? [cue evil, evil laughter]

[> [> Don't forget Space Channel -- Ames, 13:22:58 04/05/04 Mon

I've already emailed Space to ask them to broadcast the full 13-episode run of Wonderfalls, which is what they did for Firefly after Fox cancelled it last year. Maybe we can get some competition going between Global and Space here!

You know, I really wonder if the Nielson ratings in the U.S. are truly capturing the opinions of the viewing audience for shows like this. Obviously they don't capture the opinions of Canadians, who make up 10% of the viewing audience. And most of the intelligent and busy people I know are very selective in the TV they watch, and while they do watch shows like Angel, Firefly and Wonderfalls, most of them wouldn't allow a Nielson box in their home. They don't like anything that interferes with their time or their privacy. I suspect there are other groups who are under-represented, while small-town family-oriented lowest-common-denominator middle Americans are over-represented. I'm sure Nielson says they have ways to correct for this, but how do they really know?

[> [> Re: News for Canadian Wonderfalls fans. -- Shane, 12:21:34 04/06/04 Tue

I just heard back from Global Calgary and was told programming in Toronto has decided not to pick up Wonderfalls. :(

[> Made it back on-line for a second to let you guys know that... -- Rob, 12:16:24 04/05/04 Mon

....at http://www.tvshowsondvd.com, "Wonderfalls" has jumped from the 694th most requested show on DVD to 127th...in the space of a single day. So if you haven't voted yet...VOTE!

Rob
But his hope was a rope, and he should have known ("Hole in the World/Shells) -- KdS, 13:34:08 04/04/04 Sun

All I can really say is "Wow". Not perfect by any means, but this two-parter is one of the most powerful things this season.

Firstly, there's the issue of Fred's alleged idealisation to deal with, and I didn't feel that it was overstated in Hole in the World. My only problem was Spike's "Not this girl. Not this day.", a truly horrible and OOC line of dialogue which even James Masters had great difficulty bringing conviction to. Where the issue becomes problematic is in Wes's and Knox's eulogies in Shells, more appropriate to an angel than anything human. My personal gloss on this is that both Wes and Knox are, to say the least, unbalanced and that we aren't meant to take these lines entirely at face value. Maybe we're meant to parallel Wes's idealisation with Knox's, as both fail to see the real Fred, although Knox's view of her as an ideal host is far more overtly dark. Alternatively, it may be that Steve DeKnight was trying to force himself into a level of sentimentality that didn't come naturally to him and produced something rather creepy instead. I've never been a Wes/Fred shipper, so I wasn't wholly surprised by the slightly icky, all-consuming, and paternal vibe as he nurses her. It's a relationship designed as a trigger for angst and grief, and it works, but I still don't think that it would have worked as a functional relationship. Wes's line about loving Fred before he knew her was the breaking point for Rah, although I thought such romantic drivel does fit in with Wes's established fatalism, if we aren't expected to take it literally.

There are some other difficulties in the deeper implications of Fred's death. Fred has never been really handled to her full potential, largely because of ME's intermittent impulse to throw her at yet another male character and see if she sticks. As such, it seems a little unjust for her to be picked as this season's Big Death, although one can see why in terms of her relative uncorruption, and the potential metaphor of the deaths of the others' better selves. But the way she's shown here seems to portray her as merely the tragic innocent, when she can be so much more. The way in which, after Fred's death, Harmony suddenly becomes so gentle, genuinely understanding, and sympathetic to Wes and Gunn makes one wonder if there's an image here of some universal need for a nurturing female in the cast, so that after Cordelia's death Fred suddenly became the sweetly loving and maternal figure, and after Fred's death Harmony takes over. Rah and I were going back to our perennial lament about ME's bizarre gender issues (surface feminism masking some extremely simplistic and dubious assumptions) after the eps, and we wondered if there's something in the fact that Hole slides so completely into a portrayal of elemental female victimhood and male violence, heroic and otherwise. Even the effeminate, nurturing Lorne turns into a menacing macho man when dealing with Eve, who loses all her former power and is reduced to near-naked cringing.

But unlike Rah, I found it genuinely moving, although the frame of Fred's departure from her parents' home raises all the old questions about fitting Fred's age with the fact that she spent five years in Pylea after already taking an undergraduate degree. The only implication that makes the air of a first departure from home realistic is if, like an acquaintance of mine from university, Fred was a prodigy who was allowed to study for a bachelor's degree in high school, with a tutor from her local university teaching her in school, and took a graduate degree as her first entry to university. On the other hand, we're told that Fred first started studying history and then switched to physics, which is problematic given that it is almost entirely maths and science that produce such youthful prodigies.

Last summer, I was concerned that the Knox/Fred relationship would be used as an excuse for a stand-alone attacking the evils of amoral science, especially given that no-one at ME has so far shown any signs of comprehending the scientific mindset. Instead, they did something far more interesting. Knox's worship of Illyria cannot be dismissed as mere primitivism, given that in the Jossverse, demons do genuinely exist. Rather, it can be seen as a thoroughly rational, if amoral, response to discovering a source of power. Knox's attitude to Illyria and humanity, until Wes kills him, is a remarkable mixture of genuine belief and self-serving desires. Did he really worship Illyria, or view her simply as a means to power? At any rate, Jonathan Woodward provided yet another excellent iteration of ME's trademark preoccupation of charming roguery smearing into genuine evil, for the third time. He'd better watch it, or he'll get typecast.

Spike, on the other hand, finally earned my forgiveness for Lies in this ep (I say Spike, not ME - there's a difference). If anyone had told me this summer that we would see Angel dismissing the worth of anonymous human lives in relation to a friend's survival, and Spike bringing him to a more generous attitude, I simply would not have believed them. Spike's "shall we annoy other people" is wonderful, and a truly blatant piece of slashiness. And his statement that he has nowhere else to go amuses me, given that ME can no longer be bothered to pretend that it's still All About Buffy for Spike.

I've been more than a little worried about Gunn this season, given the way that ME have been teetering on the verge of saying something really obnoxious about class, social climbing, and racial authenticity. These episodes could have been the tipping point, but ME made it clear once again that the issue is Gunn's own hang-ups about his role as the "muscle", and not any inherent truth. It's intriguing to view the appearance of the Conduit in terms of Gunn's self-image - last season he seemed to view himself as the animalistically powerful primitive, however dubious that seemed to many of us. Now he sees himself as the suited and booted yuppie, uncaring of those he really should be caring about. His admission that he was willing for a stranger to suffer should be his rock bottom, and I'm wondering if he'll come back later in the season. One wonders about a Curtis Mayfield influence here, given the direct, at the time throwaway, quote from "Freddie's Dead" at the end of last season. Like Mayfield's doomed drug dealer, Fred's death comes partly from of her own willingness to make morally questionable deals, but more significantly from others'. Gunn's hope was a rope, and he most certainly should have known. And while in S3 Gunn was only too willing to acquiesce in Angel's furious expulsion of Wes from the group, now he's on the receiving end of hatred and violence from Wes. Just how much they remember of that is unclear, but Angel certainly sees the comparisons, and that may well be why his response to Wes's stabbing of Gunn is so relatively accepting.

And now we come to Wes, who is just heartbreaking here. His first scene with Gunn over his relationship with Fred is wonderfully subtle, and confirms all my suspicions about his youth. Even though Gunn's mock jealousy has a genuinely sinister edge, Wes is incapable of tolerating even mild mockery, the wounds of what he must have gone through as a child still too raw for him to ever take being the butt of a joke in good part. Wes's gratuitous violence in these episodes has been taken by those who argue that he is a sociopath as canonical proof of their suspicions, but I still don't believe it. Rather, Wes is a man who has utterly lost faith in the justice of the world as a result of everything he's gone through in the last couple of years, and he's the only ME regular to go through such a plausible lapse into cynicism. Just as Angel is trapped in a recapitulative cycle of killing his sons, Wes keeps losing his girlfriends and having to decapitate them, although this time it didn't work quite as well. The Problem of Evil may be all very well, but surely a life of fighting for the good should get you something other than being screwed by fate at every opportunity. Unlike the other characters, it genuinely seems plausible that Wes should come to view Fred as the last symbol of the universe's goodness. This time last year, DEN compared BtVS7 to a traditional Hollywood war movie, with Willow as the former hero who fears that she has lost her nerve. Applying the same metaphor, Wes is the silent guy at the back of the mess who's had a few too many of his buddies bleed to death over him, compulsively cleaning his guns and giving off a cloud of hostility and nihilism, who everyone hopes won't explode until the next engagement. But it's this very cynicism and near-amorality that, paradoxically, allows him to view Illyria as potentially something worthy of existence. Rahael suggested that what Wes always wanted was Lilah's mind in Fred's body, and he might have something close to it now. Wes's interruption of Angel's speech about the inherent dignity and redeemability of humanity by killing Knox is funny in a cynical way, but what makes the scene is the combined weariness and resignation in Angel's rebuke to him. Angel, I believe, has absolutely no illusions about how damaged Wes is, but also knows how much of that damage is because of his own actions. I even wonder if he's come to view Wes as yet another of his damaged, depraved children, who he has to keep alive and prevent from harming others in deference to his own role in their creation.

And finally, we come to Illyria, who begins in blatant Lovecraft reference (that ambiguity between sleep and death is very reminiscent - dead Cthulhu lies dreaming indeed), but turns into something far more human than Lovecraft's unknowably destructive entities. It's got enough emotional awareness to recognise grief and experience it herself, even if it doesn't wholly understand it, and enough moral understanding to note Wes's hypocrisy in the matter of not killing. How much of this is Fred's influence and how much is inherent is anyone's guess, but the personalities may have merged far early than we think. Fred's odd remark about her power being to stop "them" from taking her did, after all, come just as Angel and Spike were considering returning Illyria to the Well. Some people have compared her unfavourable to Star Trek's robots and semi-robots, but Illyria's incomprehension is purely on the moral level. Illyria was "feared and beloved", and it reminds me less of anything alien or robotic, but of some barbarian ruler from a pre-medieval age, suddenly thrust into a world with a far higher valuation of human life and standard of civilised behaviour, and not entirely unattracted by the idea. Illyria/Fred is the hybrid of the caveman and the astronaut, and as Wesley's level of civilisation falls and Illyria's rises, the two meet somewhere in the middle. Recapitulation again - just as Jamsine did, Illyria possesses and kills her gestator and fails in her attempt to claim the world. But Illyria has none of Jasmine's iron self-belief or vengeful pique, and it would be ironic if Wes were to succeed where Angel failed and turn a dark goddess into a semi-functioning member of society.

Shorter notes:

More incomprehension of England - the Cotswolds are no wilderness, but a dormitory suburb of London disguised as the countryside. A cave full of monsters guarded by Roman soldiers would not pass unnoticed.

It's unclear if Fred would have joined W&H if there had been no mind-wipe, but if Wes finds out about Angel's actions now, Angel will have a great deal to fear. Connor was, broadly speaking, the guy who likes to think of himself as honourable and challenges people to a fair fight so that he can tell them how much he hates them before he kills them. If Wes comes to blame Angel for Fred's demise, Angel might suddenly wake up in the morning to find that his bedroom windows have been quietly replaced with ordinary glass.

Did anyone else initially think Spike's comment about "the leather queen" referred to Wes? ;-)

The fight between Illyria, Angel, Spike and Wes is the best AtS fight scene since the similar one between AI and the Beast in Apocalypse Nowish. And Angel gets chucked out of a window again!

Like what seems like every other AtS fan with a sexual interest in women, I have to vote for the hotness of Illyria.

And finally the contrast between Wes/Fred and Wes/Illyria just once again proves the curious curse that haunts AtS 'ships. Why is it that the pairings which the writers want us to see as cute and happy and romantic have zero chemistry, while the pairings doomed to end in despair and slaughter virtually scorch the screen?

Replies:

[> Nah, no one would notice -- Pip, 13:59:10 04/04/04 Sun

More incomprehension of England - the Cotswolds are no wilderness, but a dormitory suburb of London disguised as the countryside. A cave full of monsters guarded by Roman soldiers would not pass unnoticed.

And Alderley Edge in Cheshire is a hill surrounded by a thriving market town and is also a commuter suburb of Manchester. Which doesn't stop it being the fictional home of goblins, wizards, weirdstones, major mystical battles, entire covens of witches, and visitations by the Wild Hunt and a few gods [grin]. It's amazing what you can fit unnoticed in the English countryside.

[Weirdstone of Brisingamen series, by Alan Garner]

[> Would you mind . . . -- d'Herblay, 10:43:00 04/06/04 Tue

.. . . if I gave this (actually, its cross-posted twin) a bit of promotion at mutant_allies? I'd like to see it get the attention I think it deserves.

[> [> Not at all, go on -- KdS, 14:16:19 04/06/04 Tue

Although I'm getting a bit too much attention right now.

[> Re: But his hope was a rope, and he should have known ("Hole in the World/Shells) -- s'kat, 12:12:21 04/07/04 Wed

An interesting review that for some odd reason no one is commenting on. Guess it's just your bad luck that people are busy whinging about the Wonderfalls cancellation. ;-)

I did try yesterday, but voy ate my post after I was disconnected three times...which is probably why I don't post on voy boards any more.

At any rate a few comments...I generally agree with your points on Hole in The World - it felt as if the writer was hammering us over the head with it. As opposed to The Body, which just flows naturally. TCH in his review stated that the Body and Hole fall within the same numerical line up, both are 5.15 (just one for BTVS and one for ATS). Curious if this was a coincidence?

There are other comparisions between BTVS and ATS that can be drawn here:

1. Illyria in some ways reminds me of Glorificus. A hell-goddess, who is out of synch with her own world and living in the shell of a mortal host. (Rumor has it Whedon originally intended Glorificus to erupt from Xander...in which case the parallel would be even more direct, since it could be argued that Xander filled the male version on BTVS, that Fred fills on ATS - that of un-powered side-kick who walks with mostly (male or female) heros. ) Both were murdered or exiled by their own kind and both are avidly worshipped. Glory by the hobbits with leporesy or monks, Illyria by the mad scientist/doc acolytes. Oddly enough the worshippers seem somewhat squeamish when it comes to pain or blood on both sides. Also in both serious it is handsome medical doctor/scientist who brings the Goddess to life.
Ben in BTVS. Knox in ATS. Just differently.

So what does this mean about ME and science? Well it's not all science really - so much as biological science that ME appears to be commenting on here - taking a page perhaps out of Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. The idea of mankind playing God with nature.

Knox early on, in Conviction, demonstrates a love of creating biological viruses. Something that sort of squicks Fred a bit. His worship of Illyria makes sense, if you consider Illyria is originally described as a demonic pathogen or virus. If they attempted to pull her out of Fred and back to her resting place in The Cotswolds (which Americans for some odd reason envision pretty much the way Whedon depicts them, let's face it - we all have oddly romantic views of places we've never been - it seems bizarre in todays world of instant travel, but still true)she would infect everyone between here and there pretty much as she infected Fred. A virus unleashed, airborn, clawing its way through everything it can in order to stay alive as long as possible. Viruses are also considered by some to be an incredibly ancient lifeform, predating us by a couple billion years. A biologist specializing in pathogens would naturally worship a virus - even if it is ancient, especially one that is far deadilier than anything he could concieve of.

The idea of worship is another interesting element. Fred.
In Hole, it feels as if everyone including the writer is worshipping Fred. To the extent that it may not even matter if Fred is actually on screen. What they are worshipping is her ideal. Her illusion. The Goddess statute. When she becomes dust in her own shell - the shell, the statue remains for them to look at, now housing ironically enough an actual goddess - one who had also been beloved and worshipped. Yet neither Fred nor Illyria appear to want to be worshipped. Both seem uncomfortable with the concept.
Also, it appears at the end of Shells, that Fred and Illyria may have switched places - with Fred the virus inside Illyria and Illyria the one in command. And yes, I agree Illyria is hot. Wex/Illyria - certainly hotter than Wes/Fred. Which in of itself is odd.

This in turn may be a comment on Angel - and his two sides.
Angelus and Angel - many viewers seem to see this two people as separate entities. They aren't. They are one and the same. If they were separate, Angel's guilt would be meaningless. But Angel desires to see them as separate. His desire to see Angelus as separate from himself is a theme ME has sort of been playing with all season long.

1. Gunn in the white room - fighting himself or the Conduit appearing as himself, until it's hard to see which Gunn is which.

2. Illyria and Fred - now encased together in the same shell, pathogen and pathologist. Switching places.

3. Nina and Werewolf Nina - that wasn't you. Oh, but Nina says, it was, I felt the desires. Something OZ figured out ages ago.

Angel/Angelus.
Angel, I believe, has absolutely no illusions about how damaged Wes is, but also knows how much of that damage is because of his own actions. I even wonder if he's come to view Wes as yet another of his damaged, depraved children, who he has to keep alive and prevent from harming others in deference to his own role in their creation.

Truth is Angel is far more damaged than Wes, and far more depraved. Angel is worse than any thing he created. And he knows it. He knows that the things he did as Angelus are worse than anything Wes, Gunn, Spike, Drusilla, Darla can imagine. He thrilled to evil. He says as much. In flashbacks the writers have shown us that Angelus was worse even than The Beast. This is a fascinating character to do a series about - because what we have here is someone who has been along the entire spectrum of good to evil. He has been "pure" unadultered evil - for evil's sake and he has been in between and he has been good. The question the writers pose in Angel The Series, a question I'm not sure they know the answer to - is can someone who has been tainted by pure evil, has been pure evil, ever become good?
Ever be redeemed? OR will they always slide backwards? Or pose the threat of sliding backwards? Part of the metaphor of being cursed with a soul - is that "continuous" fear of sliding backwards, falling off the wagon. Angel got off on doing evil. He enjoyed it. And that knowledge tears at him on a daily basis. On top of that - he must deal with the monsters he got off on creating and forming, the people he enjoyed playing monster with, and the victims who are now monsters. So not only does he feel responsible for what they are doing, he also to some degree must feel responsible for what they've become.

Another issue with Angel - is he is so focused on desires that he has lost or someone has stuck out as a carrot for him to reach, that he remains at times oblivious to what is happening around him. I honestly don't think he is aware of half of what is happening to Wes, Gunn, or Fred. He is focused on other things, things he's lost (Connor, Buffy, Cordelia) and things he hopes for (Shanshue, Buffy) - yet like the mirror described in the first of the Harry Potter novels - these things aren't substantial - they are wishes. And by focusing all our attention on wishes, we can at times overlook what is happening in front of us. I think what happened to Fred was in a way a slap to Angel's head.
Wake up!

As for Spike...well, I think he's in the Dawn role in this seasons' Angel. By Dawn role - I mean the role she had in S5 BTVS, where she was unwanted by Buffy, seemed whiny, alienated, and slowly Buffy fell for her sister. I honestly think that's what they are doing with Angel and Spike. (The funny thing is DB has such fantastic chemistry with petit blonds and JM being blond and shorter than DB in this...sigh. LOL!) The caveman/astronaut argument - classic.

Okay ending this now, before I get disconnected again.

Great post. Sorry more haven't noticed.

sk

[> [> Re: But his hope was a rope, and he should have known ("Hole in the World/Shells) -- Roy, 12:53:48 04/08/04 Thu

"Wex/Illyria - certainly hotter than Wes/Fred. Which in of itself is odd."

That's an odd statement to make. What do you mean?

[> [> [> Shadowkat's line can be interpreted in two different ways -- KdS, 14:45:15 04/08/04 Thu

And unless she comes back you're stuck with my interpretations:

a) That Wes/Illyria being hot is odd, because... um... she's an immortal demon who murdered and possessed the corpse of his beloved.

b) That Wes/Fred was odd. Yeah, no chemistry whatsoever, and psychologically very unhealthy for Wes, despite the desperate attempts ME have made on and off to convince us.

[> [> [> [> Should have been clearer...sorry. ;-) -- s'kat, 21:26:41 04/08/04 Thu

Having a *really* bad week mentally speaking and the internet kept disconnecting me...excuses, excuses..

a) That Wes/Illyria being hot is odd, because... um... she's an immortal demon who murdered and possessed the corpse of his beloved.

b) That Wes/Fred was odd. Yeah, no chemistry whatsoever, and psychologically very unhealthy for Wes, despite the desperate attempts ME have made on and off to convince us

Yep, that's pretty much the size of it.

There's more though, just not sure how to write it.
Making the attempt, assuming my annoying internet server doesn't disconnect me again.

What I find odd is that ME appears to want us to find attractive and hot Wes and sweet little girl Fred - that's supposed to be the great relationship. Yet the hot relationship is Wes with the strong aggressive female, who doesn't lean on him, such as Lilah or Illyria. And of course that's the one that is doomed, considered unhealthy and wrong.

OTOH - what they might be doing is examining the whole female goddess mythos - which so often appears in horror and the comic genre and most Western mythology - ie. Kali, Innanna, Isis, etc.. this is the guy struggling with the female, which on American TV comes out as virgin and the whore complex. With Wes - we see lots of virgin/whore symbolism, which is sort of disturbing. Cordelia - virgin, way back at Sunnydale U, then Virgina (wonder if the name was a coincidence)- who we think is a virgin that Wes deflowers, but actually was very experienced, then Lilah, and finally Fred (the little girl) who turns into the demonic Illyria while they are in Fred's bed together (not having sex, very platonic, almost a father/daughter moment - with Wes reading to her a children's book). Very disturbing imagery and a tad obvious in places.

Not sure that clarified it or not.

[> [> [> [> [> And... -- KdS, 04:10:47 04/09/04 Fri

What I find odd is that ME appears to want us to find attractive and hot Wes and sweet little girl Fred - that's supposed to be the great relationship.

Plus of course Fred really, really isn't a sweet little girl - that's what Wes seems to have gone back to seeing her as, and it's what would make it bad for both of them.

[> [> [> [> Should have been clearer...sorry. ;-) -- s'kat, 21:28:01 04/08/04 Thu

Having a *really* bad week mentally speaking and the internet kept disconnecting me...excuses, excuses..

a) That Wes/Illyria being hot is odd, because... um... she's an immortal demon who murdered and possessed the corpse of his beloved.

b) That Wes/Fred was odd. Yeah, no chemistry whatsoever, and psychologically very unhealthy for Wes, despite the desperate attempts ME have made on and off to convince us

Yep, that's pretty much the size of it.

There's more though, just not sure how to write it.
Making the attempt, assuming my annoying internet server doesn't disconnect me again.

What I find odd is that ME appears to want us to find attractive and hot Wes and sweet little girl Fred - that's supposed to be the great relationship. Yet the hot relationship is Wes with the strong aggressive female, who doesn't lean on him, such as Lilah or Illyria. And of course that's the one that is doomed, considered unhealthy and wrong.

OTOH - what they might be doing is examining the whole female goddess mythos - which so often appears in horror and the comic genre and most Western mythology - ie. Kali, Innanna, Isis, etc.. this is the guy struggling with the female, which on American TV comes out as virgin and the whore complex. With Wes - we see lots of virgin/whore symbolism, which is sort of disturbing. Cordelia - virgin, way back at Sunnydale U, then Virgina (wonder if the name was a coincidence)- who we think is a virgin that Wes deflowers, but actually was very experienced, then Lilah, and finally Fred (the little girl) who turns into the demonic Illyria while they are in Fred's bed together (not having sex, very platonic, almost a father/daughter moment - with Wes reading to her a children's book). Very disturbing imagery and a tad obvious in places.

Not sure that clarified it or not.

[> [> Various stuff -- KdS, 14:10:29 04/08/04 Thu

Yes, Illyria has resonances of both Glory and Jasmine. But both of them were deeply self-confident and self-centered. Illyria, on the other hand, genuinely seems to have lost her sense of purpose with her followers gone and her fame passed away, at least temporarily - very odd for a deity and suggesting that she isn't actually one in the usual sense.

And the idea of Knox and diseases is a great pick-up. I wonder though, if it was the opposite causation from the one you seem to be suggesting. Knox found out about Illyria as a teenager. Maybe it was his interest in diseases that came from his knowledge of the manner in which Illyria could be resurrected, as an infection. But I must disagree about the age of viruses. Viruses are a dengenerate form of life - they're almost pure nucleic acid, depended on hijacking other cells to reproduce themselves. They couldn't exist until there was something to parasitise.

[> [> [> Re: Various stuff -- s'kat, 21:51:28 04/08/04 Thu

Illyria, on the other hand, genuinely seems to have lost her sense of purpose with her followers gone and her fame passed away, at least temporarily - very odd for a deity and suggesting that she isn't actually one in the usual sense.

I'm wondering if Illyria might not be an agent of Chaos, or possibly a trickster demon. Which would explain the differences - both Glory and Jasmine were very much into order in their own twisted ways. Illyria is reminiscent of the vampire characters in that she seems to be more into chaos - which would serve as a nice contrast to Wolf Ram and Hart which are all about order - or orderly evil?

Not sure.

Good call on virus stuff - I keep getting them confused with bacteria. Bacteria could pre-exist I think. Not sure.
At any rate since matter and other life forms existed prior to human beings, especially in the Buffyverse, viruses would be older. Just maybe not by a billion years.

Also good call on Knox, it is possible that his interest in the Illyria virus lead him to science...puts yet another interesting spin on the caveman/astronaut debate.

[> [> [> [> virus, bacterial, & human origins in the buffyverse -- anom, 22:43:47 04/10/04 Sat

"Good call on virus stuff - I keep getting them confused with bacteria. Bacteria could pre-exist I think. Not sure.
At any rate since matter and other life forms existed prior to human beings, especially in the Buffyverse, viruses would be older. Just maybe not by a billion years."

In the real world, since humans are a comparatively late arrival on the evolutionary scene, yes, both viruses & bacteria were around before us, infecting &, in some cases, living symbiotically with, earlier life forms (no idea how far back). But the Buffyverse doesn't deal much with microbes--or with evolution, come to that, beyond Giles' comparison of the Turok-Han to Neanderthals. In fact, the only account of human origins I can think of on either show has no more to do with evolution than it does with the Biblical creation story that Giles dismissed early on. It comes in Shiny Happy People, when Jasmine says:

"In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters: the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place but we remained ever watchful....But then something new emerged from deep inside the earth-neither demon nor god....And it seemed, for a time, that through this new race, a balance might be restored."

"From deep inside the earth"? So people didn't even develop on the surface of this planet? Interesting choice, hmm? In many languages, the word for human is related to the word for earth, but this is carrying the idea a lot further. Maybe it could be connected with an almost literal interpretation of "Mother Earth," but I'll leave any analysis of that to people with more time & greater inclination in that direction.

I will point out that there's actually no explanation of how humans came to be ("born" from the earth, but "conceived" how?)...but then again, there's never been any explanation of how demons or Old Ones came to be, either. The only beings whose origins we're told of are vampires...& Slayers.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: virus, bacterial, & human origins in the buffyverse -- Alistair, 10:56:05 04/11/04 Sun

Maybe the Old Ones are the antithesis to the powers - the darker ones among them who grew stronger, making the powers leave. The offspring of these evil powers became the old ones. Or the old ones invaded the Earth from other dimensions, although the evidence for that is sketchy- either the old ones came from earth, or they came from other worlds.... why then do they want so bad to return to Earth, if it isnt their original home?

[> Quite, quite excellent post! I especially took note of... -- OnM, 18:53:09 04/08/04 Thu

.... this comment, which triggered such a strong reaction after the first pass by that I stopped, went back and read it over again immediately; not because I doubt its veracity, but because I think you are absolutely dead on in your intuition:

*** Angel, I believe, has absolutely no illusions about how damaged Wes is, but also knows how much of that damage is because of his own actions. I even wonder if he's come to view Wes as yet another of his damaged, depraved children, who he has to keep alive and prevent from harming others in deference to his own role in their creation. ***

And that had never occured to me before, despite significiant ponderage of my own re: these eps just a few weeks back!

Great stuff, with many other cogent observations to contemplate!

:-)
It's official...The "Farscape" miniseries is going to be airing...on SciFi!! Weird, eh? -- Rob, 09:57:53 04/05/04 Mon

from scifi.com:

SCI FI Brings Back Farscape

SCI FI announced it will be bringing back Farscape with an all-new miniseries - called Farscape: Peacekeeper War - slated to air in the fourth quarter of this year. The four-hour miniseries picks up where the cliffhanger series finale left off and will reunite John Crichton (Ben Browder), Aeryn Sun (Claudia Black) and the rest of the Moya crew.

Farscape creator Rockne O'Bannon and executive producer David Kemper wrote the miniseries, which was directed by Brian Henson. Peacekeeper War was produced by the Jim Henson Company and Hallmark Entertainment, and executive produced by Robert Halmi Jr.

SCI FI will make the official announcement at noon on Monday, April 5, during the channel's advertising sales "upfront" presentation.

Replies:

[> Definitely weird -- tomfool, 12:34:03 04/05/04 Mon

Good news about the miniseries. Too bad they couldn't have just given us a season five instead. I guess SciFi is the logical place to air it since the demographicsand fan base match up, but it I'm sure there were some mixed feelings going back to the company that stabbed them in the back to begin with. Maybe SF will prep for the miniseries by doing a marathon run of all the episodes in order. Right now the rerun schedule is bizarre in the extreme. Thanks for the update.

[> Very weird! (And a message for BtVS/AtS fans about Farscape.) -- Ixchel (unashamed BtVS/AtS/Firefly/Farscape pusher) ;), 18:41:57 04/05/04 Mon

Weird to say the least. Thanks for spreading the weird, but good, news, Rob. :)

Also, something I posted at another AtS site in response to an inquiry about Farscape:

Anyone looking for a great show, should consider Farscape. Setting, puppets, and costumes/make-up aside (which are often very beautiful BTW), this show has the same rich characterization that I love in BtVS/AtS. In fact, in what I assume is a homage to Joss Whedon/ME, Farscape's main character, John Crichton, seems to be a BtVS fan (AtS was just starting when he got shot through the wormhole ;) ). Also, some Blockbusters rent the DVDs, so no big financial commitment to give the show a try. :)

Final thought, Farscape fans (myself included) showed our devotion and now have the upcoming miniseries (not the full season hoped for, but far, far better than nothing). I know Angel fans (also myself included) are just as devoted. Maybe it's not too much to hope for eventual good news about Angel as well (if not a sixth season, at least "forcing" The WB to make good on their TV movies "promise")?

Save Angel!
Save Farscape!


Ixchel

[> [> Amen -- Maura, 17:43:33 04/06/04 Tue

Very well said. Coping with the loss of Buffy and Angel, I've found myself becoming a real Farscape devotee after a few years of not really giving it a chance. (The same thing happened with Buffy actually.)

I think the Angel and Farscape fan communities have a lot in common. In this increasingly tough environment for SF TV (or good dramatic TV in general), fan lobbying will probably only become more vital to keeping good shows around in any form. Here's to the lobbying!

[> [> [> Thanks, Maura! It's great knowing there are so many of us... :) -- Ixchel, 18:30:54 04/06/04 Tue

I'm happy to say I've noticed a definite air of comradeship both here and on the Farscape board I frequent (www.savefarscape.com). And I definitely believe we fans of quality genre television (and, as you say, good dramatic television, period) should stick together. It makes us more of a force to be reckoned with. ;)

BTW, I know what you mean about Buffy/Farscape. I dismissed both shows in their first seasons, only to become a rabid fan in their second seasons.


Ixchel
Down to My Last Postcard
Happy Pesach! -- Rob, 10:03:44 04/05/04 Mon

Everybody who's celebrating, have a great holiday and good eatin' at the seders!

I am also posting because, for those of you who don't know, the reason I haven't been on much recently is my computer has been in repairs the past two weeks, and I've only been able to get on-line for a few minutes here and there, at work, at friends' houses, etc., but because I'm going to be off of work the next few days for the holiday, I probably won't be able to get on-line at all. My computer should be back by next week, I hope.

So, again, have a great holiday! I won't be able to respond to anything, because I'm leaving work now, but I'm thinking of you guys and I hope all my computer problems will be all fixed within the next week.

Rob

Replies:

[> happy pesach, gut yontiff, happy easter, & all that! -- anom (did i miss anyone?), 15:51:46 04/05/04 Mon

Rob, I hope you have a great one (even if you don't see this till afterwards) & your computer problems are soon solved. A happy holiday to all who celebrate one or another around this time!

Hey, maybe we can keep this thread up till Rob gets back online--whaddya think?

[> [> Yeah - Pasg Hapus, pawb! Also, can I add belated Birthday wishes to all those I've missed lately! -- Marie, 06:19:27 04/06/04 Tue

I know I must've missed lots of folks' birthdays, 'cos I don't have time to visit here much now, so if I missed yours or miss yours in the future, sorry!

Marie

[> [> [> yeah, birthdays too! belated happy ones to Jacki & Eryn! -- anom, 13:41:50 04/11/04 Sun

And Jacki, did I have the wrong date? A week ago Wednesday (3/31, I think)? I looked for the party in chat ~11 pm, but nobody was there. Hope it was happy!

Um, Marie? The rest I could figure out, but what's "pawb"?
What kind of beings are considered more powerful than Willow? -- slayer, 11:00:11 04/05/04 Mon

Willow's are very impressive and she show to have alot of power. Jasmine fought her but she wasn't at her peak so she could of beaten Willow. D'hoffrwn has to kill beings at a whim and could take her down easily. Glory at her best could of defeat willow unless she lost power then reverted back to Ben. The Ra-tet seem to have a ton of power and do alot of magic. Also any of the old ones can pose a threat too. The main reason she would probably lose is because has limits alot lower than these beings.

Replies:

[> Is Willow the Most Powerful Witch? -- Claudia, 15:43:23 04/05/04 Mon

Is Willow really the most powerful witch? Aside from Tara, Amy and Amy's mother, Jossverse has not really introduced any other witches.

[> [> It's never been said out loud. -- BrianWilly, 16:09:06 04/05/04 Mon

But I think that's what we're supposed to gather.

Anya does mention during "Two to Go" that she's the most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere. Anya seems to know a lot about this stuff, also she was a demon at that point and therefore more sensitive to magic, so I don't think it was just a quip.

We also know that well-established witch covens like the one in Devon are incredibly respectful/fearful of Willow, which suggests that she is [well[?]] above their power.

Certainly after the Slayer Awakening spell and her apparent goddessification, it's implied that her power increases even more. I think it's safe to say that if she's not the best by the end of the series, at the least she's way up there somewhere in the tip-top.

[> [> [> Re: It's never been said out loud. -- rsfayez, 20:28:37 04/05/04 Mon

i honestly believe that willow has become a guardians in "Chosen".
that's what the white hair reminded me of.
and i think it makes sense of how vital willow's role was in the gang.
remember the hand card in "Restless" as in hands could guard/guard off? maybe i'm making too much out of it...

[> [> [> [> hands? -- jean, 15:30:35 04/07/04 Wed

Willow's card was not hands...that was Buffy's. Willow's card was spirit meaning her witchy prowess and such

[> Re: D'Hoffryn and other vengeance demons... -- BrianWilly, 16:21:39 04/05/04 Mon

I'm pretty sure that most of their mystical power comes from the wishing itself. D'Hoffryn did kill Halfrek with a look, yeah, but that was because Anya wished for the frat boys to be saved with the life and soul of a v-demon. So we can say that D'Hoffryn is powerful, but then Anyanka is powerful in the same way, and so is Halfrek, and every other vengeance demon in the world...any one of them could kill Willow if someone (other than themselves) really wished it. One-on-one in actual combat, though, I think Willow would beat them down.

I don't know about Glory, either. Do you mean Glory at her best as in when she was a fully-powered hellgod reigning over a demonic dimension, or when she was just still trapped in her earthly prison(Ben) but pumped up in brain juice?

[> [> Re: D'Hoffryn and other vengeance demons... -- slayer, 16:34:13 04/05/04 Mon

when she was a fully-powered hellgod reigning over a demonic dimension.

[> [> The power of the wish -- Cleanthes, 13:15:28 04/08/04 Thu

Any one of us, let alone someone of Willow's power, could destroy any and maybe all of the wish-granting demons. A wisher need only know beforehand that the demon was near and will be granting a wish (a difficult order, maybe, inasmuch as the vengeance demons we've seen seem to operate incognito not just as to being a demon but also as to being a wish-grantor; still certainly do-able for anyone on the Hellmouth and certainly for Willow).

Even one cognizant wisher could destroy the demon by wishing that their wish not be granted. There might be incidental ramifications to reality, I suppose.
That's it, I give up. I have lost faith in Fox. -- Vash the Stampede, 19:30:11 04/05/04 Mon

Except for the Simpsons, I am not watching Fox anymore. I give up; its just not worth it. They don't give a damn about developing series; all they want to do is make a quick buck with reality shows. I don't know how Tru Calling survived, but I'll just wait for it to come out on dvd. I am not investing myself in a show, only to have it cancelled. Fox has failed as a network; they will never have good quality programming. Just you wait; Arrested Development will be next. Why; because its good and they don't have to patience to build it so that it can get an audience as well. Well, the hell with it. From now on the only new, edgy, quality shows I will watch will be on WB and FX. At least there they give it a shot. So now more; they will never give us anything new, so I am giving up on them.

Replies:

[> I hear ya... -- Belladonna, 20:23:20 04/05/04 Mon

After the cancellation of Wonderfalls, which has become my new favorite show, I just don't have the energy to watch Fox. It's too frustrating to get into a show only to have it cancelled, leaving you wondering what happens to your characters. I'll still watch 24, at least to the end of this season, but otherwise, I'm through.

[> A guess as to what goes on inside FOX's heads -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:48:43 04/05/04 Mon

When they create a new show and it doesn't take off right away, they usually cancel it. But they have, on several occasions, brought out shows which have become quite popular and they've continued with for several years. My guess is that their business philosophy is throwing lots of shows out there and, even if they only have one instant hit among five slow-starting and quickly cancelled shows, it still comes out to making a profit (this is just a guess, keep in mind).

Also, I think I heard somewhere that "Arrested Development" was originally only supposed to be half a season but, after a few episodes, they extended it to a full season. This seems to imply at least some interest in continuing it.

[> I was just thinking about how much money I'm going to save -- Cheryl, 22:28:33 04/05/04 Mon

I have 3 tvs and 3 vcrs. A couple of years ago my vcrs were being used constantly and I was buying lots of tapes. now just one tv and vcr get used, and not that frequently, so I think I'll be selling or donating the two extra sets in the near future.

I'm saving money by not buying tapes anymore (plus I have more room for my DVD collections) and I'm seriously thinking of cancelling my cable. Also will be cancelling the TVGuide subscription I've had for over 20 years. Why? Because after this season, there isn't anything worth watching anymore. Although I like Joan of Arcadia and Queer Eye, they're not enough of a reason to keep cable and the TV Guide. I'm pretty sure Arrested Development won't be renewed and with Wonderfalls and Angel gone, I have no faith in the networks to put out anything intelligent, original, and interesting anymore. Even if they did, I don't want to waste my time getting invested in them only to have them taken away without even giving them a chance.

My heart's been broken too many times now. I was bummed when Nowhere Man and Quantum Leap were cancelled and baffled when Once and Again was axed. Then Firefly - after the network totally screwed around with it just pissed me off. When Angel was cancelled I was beyond flabbergasted, and now Wonderfalls after only 4 episodes and right after switching it to another night (with no notice, mind you - TVGuide still had it on Friday).

So now I can save up my money and go to more scifi cons. ;-) And use my time to get in better shape and read more. So, maybe the networks are doing me a favor, afterall. And, as an added plus, just think of all the commercials I won't have to watch anymore. :-)

[> [> Re: I was just thinking about how much money I'm going to save -- CW, 07:34:12 04/06/04 Tue

And use my time to get in better shape

Better shape? Than you are already? Now your just going to make me feel guilty. ;o)

Yeah, I'm afraid the days of needing three VCRs are behind us for awhile. Like you, I don't see much on cable these days worth the extra expense.

[> [> Re: I am planning on cancelling my Cable too! -- Vegeta, 07:45:01 04/06/04 Tue

I completely concur! If Angel isn't picked up or renewed there is no reason to watch television anymore. There is only 3 or 4 shows I watch anyways:

24
Angel
That 70's show (guilty pleasure)
The Shield

There is no reason to continue to pay for cable for 12 episodes of The Shield once a year. And I should be able to pull in 24 on the ol' rabbit ears. Television has become beyond repulsive... I refuse to watch reality shows, becuase they are basically about exploiting the absolute worst in people for ratings. Sitcoms are ridiculously unimiginative (except Arrested Development) repeating the same jokes and story lines Three's Company stole from The Honeymooner's. And I personally see no reason to watch CSI: Anchorage or Law and Order: Behind the Desk (obvious jokes referring to multiple versions of the same shows). I give up!!!

[> [> [> Re: I am planning on cancelling my Cable too! -- Captain America, 08:44:53 04/06/04 Tue

It couldn't be stated better. The ONLY reason I won't cancel mine is because I need my FNC.

[> [> Methinks I see a trend here -- Masq, 09:38:32 04/06/04 Tue

I was just chatting with CJL about doing the same thing. The only reason I have cable now is to get decent reception of Angel. Everything else on TV worth watching I actually watch when it comes out on DVD, or it's on a pay channel I don't have and can mooch off of friends.

Never thought I'd think of TV as a vast wasteland again, but if I get rid of my cable bill, I'll have more money for DVD buys and rentals.

[> [> [> It will be interesting to see . . . -- Cheryl, 10:11:23 04/06/04 Tue

down the road in a year or two, what the fallout will be from the networks' collective decision to focus on reality programming at the expense of quality drama and comedy. Will television and vcr production decline? Will cable and satellite companies be hurting? Will companies spending their advertising dollars on inane programs see a decline in revenues? What about publications like TVGuide or even People?

Also, how will pop culture be affected? I think about kids/teenagers growing up today and what they'll remember fondly looking back 20-30 years from now - Who won on Survivor? Fear Factor? American Idol? Bachelor/ette? My guilty pleasure is American Idol, but even that I can only take in small doses. It's not that reality programming is a bad thing in and of itself, it's that it's overrun almost all programming and all your left with after that are the same old crime/drama/law/medical shows and lame (for the most part) copycat comedies.

Geez, I'm beginning to feel like some old fogie, wistfully looking back on the Golden Years.

[> [> [> [> Perhaps reality TV show lovers used to feel the same way about dramas and comedies -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:27:00 04/06/04 Tue

The two basic types of TV shows for a long while now have been dramas and comedies. However, now, a third type of show (reality) is beginning to rise in prominence. It was always around to a certain extent (see game shows), but has recently begun to become very widespread. I have to wonder, though, if reality shows are really that common. Sure, there are a lot of them, but are there as many as there are comedies or dramas? If we view reality TV as a legitimate genre perfectly entitled to compete with the other big two, then reality shows are certainly the lesser of the three in terms of numbers. So, isn't it possible that, for a while at least, fans of the reality genre were upset with TV for taking spots away from reality shows with their scripted dramas and comedies?

I, personally, don't like reality TV and wish it would go away, but that's in sort of the same way I wish "Law and Order" would go away; it would make me happy, but it wouldn't necessarily benefit the medium of television or the general viewing public.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: No offense but... -- Vegeta, 11:51:53 04/06/04 Tue

IMHO Reality television is the equivilant of a doughnut. There easy to eat, taste good but aren't going to do anything for you but make you fat. Reality television is really nothing but empty calories, turning brains to mush (not literally). My biggest complaint about reality television is the pure decadance it promotes. Basically, most of the shows are more or less "soft porn" (especially The Real World). I find it sad that this is what children and young adults are exposed to, basically looking at 20 somethings as horny, evil, nasty people, either trying to screw/screw over eachother. Truely sad.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I actually agree -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:00:13 04/06/04 Tue

However, there are plenty of people who feel that way about all television (especially fantasy programs such as "Buffy" or "Angel").

My above post was intended as an objective observation, rather than one which brought my own views of reality TV into play.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I actually agree -- Vegeta, 07:01:50 04/07/04 Wed

No worries, it was understood that your post was objective observation... so was mine.

[> Maybe Trio or Bravo will show the rest of the episodes -- Vash the Stampede, 04:41:15 04/06/04 Tue

One of my new favorite cable channels is Trio, which show original programming from around the world and shows that were, "Brilliant but cancelled." Also, Bravo recently showed the remaining episodes of Keen Eddie, so maybe there is a shot there as well.

[> There's still Arrested Development... -- nazlan, 09:12:53 04/06/04 Tue


[> [> Yeah, but for how long? -- Vash the Stampede, 09:25:04 04/06/04 Tue


[> Offering a less bleak perspective -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:15:32 04/06/04 Tue

I, personally, will still have a number of shows next season that I'll want to watch. "Malcolm in the Middle", "Arrested Development", "Nip/Tuck" (if it has a new season), "Still Standing", "Everybody Loves Raymond", "Two and a Half Men", "Seinfeld" and "Friends" reruns, "Scrubs", "Happy Family", "Smallville", "Tru Calling", "Teen Titans", "Justice League", "Ruroni Kenshin", and, despite frequently bad dialouge and cheesiness, "Charmed" and "Yugioh".

Perhaps my palet is simply less discriminating (or maybe it's the fact that I don't have to pay for cable and find DVDs to expensive).

[> I respect them for one reason, and one reason alone: -- Rob, 20:34:44 04/06/04 Tue

They've already renewed 24 for the next season. It seems strange that they support and nurture this very non-mainstream, groundbreaking cult hit that took a while to find its audience (it didn't get its largest numbers until the second season), and yet they haven't made any such allowances for shows such as Firefly and Wonderfalls. I expect more from the network that brought us The X-Files and continues to bring us The Simpsons.

On a separate note, true, there is very little left on network TV that will be worth watching next season: 24, Alias, Scrubs, Queer Eye, Whoopi (I know I'm in the minority opinion on that one) and The Ellen DeGeneres Show. And my fingers are crossed that Ally's show, Americana is worth watching. But I would never cancel my cable subscription, not only for those shows, each of which I would not want to give up, but for the brilliant HBO series such as Six Feet Under (IMO, without exaggerating, one of the best shows ever to air on television), The Sopranos, and Carnivale. With rare exceptions, such as the Whedon shows, Wonderfalls, etc., there is nothing on TV that can compare with the best of the HBO series. Even the weaker ones are better than most else on TV.

Rob

[> [> Re: I respect them for one reason, and one reason alone: -- Cheryl, 20:51:16 04/06/04 Tue

But I would never cancel my cable subscription, not only for those shows, each of which I would not want to give up, but for the brilliant HBO series such as Six Feet Under (IMO, without exaggerating, one of the best shows ever to air on television), The Sopranos, and Carnivale. With rare exceptions, such as the Whedon shows, Wonderfalls, etc., there is nothing on TV that can compare with the best of the HBO series. Even the weaker ones are better than most else on TV.

We just had this very discussion at dinner tonight. If I could just get HBO without the other cable stations (except maybe Bravo), I'd probably do that. As it is, I don't have HBO now, but my brother would tape shows for me (until he moved to DC a couple of weeks ago). Too bad we can't customize our channel lineup.

Oh, and I love Ellen, too. Definitely a bright spot these days.

[> [> [> Thank you for this thread -- Drew the De-Lurker, 22:34:38 04/06/04 Tue

I just wanted to say thanks for the wonderful thread this has been. I sometimes feel like I'm totally alone in the trash tv has become. After accidentally watching one half an episode of My Big Fat Obnoxious Fiance, I swore off the whole genre of reality shows altogether. Television looks real bleak right now, cable looks slightly better (Six Feet Under comes to mind), but so what? I'm better off without a cable bill.

[> [> [> [> Re: Thank you for this thread -- Freki, 08:36:55 04/07/04 Wed

I'm keeping cable too, even though I don't have HBO. Several of the more interesting series are on the cable-only channels, like Monk, The Dead Zone and Touching Evil on USA, The Shield on FX, and MI-5 on A&E. At least the HBO shows come out on DVD fairly quickly, so I can rent them from Netflix.

Broadcast televison is becoming a wasteland of bad sitcoms and trashy reality shows, but I still watch Gilmore Girls and 24, so I can't bring myself to boycott FOX or the WB.

[> Random thoughts on current tv -- tomfool, 11:00:37 04/07/04 Wed

SF Chron's Tim Goodman fires off random tv thoughts, including a few on Wonderfall's cancellation.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/04/07/DDGGH60UQK1.DTL

[> Re: That's it, I give up. I have lost faith in Fox. -- pellenaka, 14:15:29 04/08/04 Thu

Me too. But I'm glad that they aired the fourth episode so that I could see it on my vacation in New York. I also got to see Tru Calling, which sucked.
How can bad shows stay but Wonderfalls get kicked...
"Wonderfalls"--Possibly not dead yet? Well, it is on Fox, but... -- Rob (only here for a few stolen seconds), 12:10:36 04/06/04 Tue

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,271|87353|1|,00.html

'Wonderfalls' Surrenders to Destiny and Seeks a New Home

(Tuesday, April 06 09:30 AM)

By Kate O'Hare

LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - It's not an everyday occurrence for shows to find success after changing networks, but it does happen. "JAG" left NBC after one season in 1995-'96 and moved to CBS, where it airs to this day.

After a rocky run at FOX, the comedy "Grounded for Life" has found favor with The WB, as did "Sabrina the Teenage Witch," which jumped to the Frog for three seasons after four on ABC.

Now, "Wonderfalls" hopes it can capture some of that magic. Axed by FOX after airing four original episodes (three on Friday, one last Thursday), the 20th Century Fox Television series from executive producers Bryan Fuller, Todd Holland and Tim Minear is taking its already completed 13 episodes and looking for a new home.

In particular, Fuller has set his sights on weblets The WB and UPN.

"I think the show would make a great companion piece with 'Smallville' on The WB," he says, "and it would also make a great companion piece with 'America's Next Top Model' on UPN.

"It's a critically acclaimed drama. We don't have a lot of that on television right now, so we're hoping we can find a home on another network that will appreciate the show."

Caroline Dhavernas stars in "Wonderfalls" as Jaye Tyler, a twentysomething slacker who works in a Niagara Falls gift shop. She takes her first step into a larger world when animal figurines start giving her cryptic instructions, each of which leads to surprising and unexpected results for Jaye, her friends, family and complete strangers.

While Fuller believes that there was a lack of support for "Wonderfalls" in the upper echelons of FOX and its parent company, News Corp., FOX Broadcasting corporate communications v.p. Scott Grogin asserts, "The decision was entirely Gail Berman's. She is the entertainment president for the network, and the decision was entirely hers."

No doubt influencing Berman's was the poor performance of "Wonderfalls" on both Friday -- where it drew an average of 3.8 million viewers -- and Thursday, where an original episode on April 1 (originally scheduled to air Friday, April 2) couldn't even match the Friday numbers against new installments of CBS' "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation" and NBC's "The Apprentice."

"It didn't help that TV Guide listed the show as Friday at 9 when it had been moved to Thursday," Fuller adds. "There were a lot of contributing factors that didn't help us."

Although the show had a great deal of critical support, Fuller feels part of the reason for its lackluster showing lay in FOX's marketing strategy.

"This is an edgy romantic comedy," he says, "with a lot of rambunctious humor. That will find an audience, if the audience knows those are the elements in the show. Our audience was always very confused as to what the show was. They were marketing it as 'Felicity' in the beginning, because that's what they wanted it to be, and it's not."

Vowing to continue until "I've been told 'no' by all the networks," Fuller makes his pitch for the show's remaining unaired nine episodes.

"The episode that would have been next week kicks off all the franchise-y, arc-y stuff for the series," he says, "whereas the episodes we've aired to so far have been establishing the scenario.

"The next episode, 'Crime Dog,' kicks it off in a big way. [SPOILERS IN INVISO-TEXT:]We have Jaye's brother, who learns that she's a little bit crazy, and it starts his arc of becoming the first apostle. We have all sorts of nitty-gritty juiciness with Sharon, the lesbian Republican lawyer sister. We're hoping the tone and scope of these episodes will have a lot of promise for another network and be a tasty little treat to tempt them into picking us up.

"Any of those networks that wants to see those future episodes, just have them drop me a line, and I will send them a DVD or two."

Fuller also reminds his fans (and potential buyers), "The important thing is, we're not dead, we're in ICU."

Replies:

[> If they pull this off, I will start going back to church ;) -- Vash the Stampede, 14:19:20 04/06/04 Tue

I'm a lapsed Catholic, basically only going on Easter and Christmas. If they manage to pull this off, I will start going back to church because then I will truely believe in mircales. Come on God, reclaim your wayward son!

*He said tongue firmly in cheek*

Seriously, I hope they can pull this off.

[> So want to believe this... -- Kenny, 21:50:59 04/06/04 Tue

Even after complaining about the one episode (and I'll readily admit, my judgment was a bit clouded upon my first viewing of "Wound-Up Penguin...mainly due to vodka), I really don't want to see this show leave the air. I love it. If Minear could set up a private screening, I'd fly out to LA to watch the last nine episodes. If it finds a home on one of the netlets, I wouldn't drop cable. As an aside, let me say how surprised I was at the number of other people ready to drop it at the end of this season. Quite a few people disgruntled with the medium. However, I find the prospect dim. "...Great companion piece to Smallville..." Wasn't Angel supposed to be a great companion piece to Smallville? If Angel couldn't be the perfect companion, should anyone really believe that Wonderfalls will fill that role? I'll grant you, I've only seen a handful (if that many) episodes of Smallville, but it seems to me that you can always like the characters you're supposed to (Clark and Lana). When they do things you don't like, it's because of mind control. Angel isn't that way. Wonderfalls isn't either. The main criticism I hear about the show is that people don't like Jaye, which I find absurd because I adore that character. She's incredibly well realized, by both writers and actor. Really, it's funny how much she resembles Angel (especially S1-S2 Angel) as a character. She wants to distance herself humanity. She's starting to see that possibility that she's on a mission, but she wants to do it without getting close to anyone, with the whole point of the mission being that she's supposed to be able to get closer to people. She receives strange messages from unknown powers to help her accomplish that goal. She's got great hair. The parallels are endless (I find this commonality between her and Angel especially intriguing after posting how she was the Anti-Buffy). So why she stand a chance at being what the WB wants when Angel can't?

And a great companion piece to "America's Next Top Model"? Please tell me that was a joke that didn't translate well to the Internet.


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