April 2003 posts
Fray:
possible foreshadwoing of "Chosen" ending? -- Nino, 14:07:05 04/24/03
Thu
I typed this whole thing a week ago, but it didnt send...so here
it goes...once more, with feeling:
For those of you who have not been blessed with Joss Whedon's
"Fray" (go get it fools, what are u waiting for?) Fray
is a slayer of the very distant future. When she is called someone
explains to her that in the 21st Century there was a battle (i
paraphrase) "a slayer with the help of mystical allies battled
an apocolyptic army of demons. When the battle was done all supernatural
evil and magicks were banned from this earthly dimension. It is
not known whether the slayer lived. All the demons being gone,
another slayer was not called again....until many years into the
future, when Fray was called."
I have been saying this since the end of season 6...but wouldnt
that be a great way to end the series? And seeing as how it IS
the last season, the big bad is the First, (the source of all
evil) and not to mention all this talk of the slayer line being
erradicated and of what it means to be chosen....i think this
would be the biggest bang the scoobs can go out with...and it
doesnt involve KILLING the First, which is important, because
you can't kill the source of all evil, but rather if the supernaturual
evil of the world is gone Buffy can be rewarded by the Powers
that Be for her service by getting to be a normal girl...what
she has wanted from day one (possibly Joyce as a rep?).
"Angel" presents a problem. Where would said ending
leave season 5 of the Fang Gang? Well I read in a Joss interview
that if "Angel" is back, the whole show will be revamped.
Perhaps our buddies in LA will be erradicating any remnants of
evil and trying to fianlly shut down Wolfram and Hart, humans
who might threaten to bring the demons back...what a series finale
for "Angel" that could be...defeating his 5 year foe...lemme
know what u think...i could talk about this for hours.
[> Re: Fray: possible foreshadwoing
of "Chosen" ending? spoiler for the next few Buffy eps
and Fray -- Rufus, 20:10:21 04/24/03 Thu
I've made posts on Fray that are on the Trollop board because
they would be too spoilery for here. Fray does have a connection
to Buffy that the unspoiled people here don't know of. The connection
so far is the spoiler existance and power
of the scythe, more than Buffy herself end of spoiler.
I won't be getting my copy of the next Fray for a few weeks....but
I'm conversant with the six I've seen so far.
[> [> Definitely Spoilery
Goodness Above! -- Briar Rose, 02:30:04 04/25/03 Fri
Only financial distress has caused me to miss so many Frays....
I agree with both of you!
To further the theorizing... Even controlling/killing the First
Evil wouldn't keep ALL evil out of the world. Not even the Joss-verse
is that unaware of the need for balance as shown in the Apocolypse
Now-ish nightmare of sustained darkness throwing the AtS world
completely out of balance.
There is no mention in Fray of ALL forms of evil being totally
irradicated, just the vampires and magick and such that isn't
covered by the soul clause. But evil does still exist in some
form otherwise Fray wouldn't have anything to be called for! Nothing
can form itself in a complete vacuum, something has to cause it
to come into being. So actually irradicating the First Evil entirely
would be impossible from a logical point of reasoning and usless
from a Fray franchise point of view.
I definitely think that Buffy will finally be allowed to become
a "normal girl" if the series does set up Fray directly.
Because without Buffy surviving Faith would become the next Slayer
and that opens up a huge set of logistical troubles for future
films or spinoffs from BtVS. Joss may be outside the box, but
he's a master of promotions and tie-ins and franchises - I can't
see him letting Buffy go without holding some cards back. Faith
would work... but it doesn't have the cache BtVS does with a proven
track record to fall back on allowing that SMG will cooperate.
[> [> Re: Fray: possible
foreshadwoing of "Chosen" ending? SPOILER for the next
few Buffy eps and Fray -- Nino,
09:49:06 04/25/03 Fri
Ahhh!i forgot about the scyth in my second typing of that message....i
too read that it would come into play sometime during "End
of Days"...im so glad people are seeing the connection...it
is a spectactular work of foreshadowing if it all comes together...and
knowing joss, it will
Caleb,
Misogyny, and Misanthropy (Spoilers through "Dirty Girls"
-- Finn Mac Cool, 18:19:00 04/24/03 Thu
Back when I was still a newbie to this board, I wrote a post titled
"Warren Was Not a Misogynist". I had been reading a
number of posts talking about Warren's hatred of women, particularly
strong women, and felt compelled to dispute it. I've since seen
it was otherwise upon the summer reruns of Season Six and Willow
actually calling him a misogynist in "The Killer in Me".
However, at the time my argument was that Warren wasn't a misogynist
because he didn't target women exclusively. He enjoyed dominating
Andrew and Jonathan and being the leader of the Trio, and, after
becoming invincible, he enjoyed beating up Xander and the guy
that made fun of him back in high school. I saw Warren as being
totally obsessed with controlling others, and only had a special
focus on women since men only served as outlets for agression,
while women could be used as outlets for agression and sexuality.
However, there was a post in that thread I started that greatly
clarified how Warren worked to me. I can actually still remember
the title: "Specifically Misogynous, or Generally Misanthropic?"
After that post, the argument that Warren was a misogynist made
a lot more sense. Just because Warren was misanthropic (hating
all people), he could still have a special place in his twisted
heart for misogyny (hating all women).
Well, I think this also applies to Caleb. There have been numerous
posts over the past week about Caleb's misogyny and his targeting
of women as victims. And, while I agree that Caleb reveals some
very blunt misogynistic beliefs, they are not the total of his
obsession. Consider these quotes from "Dirty Girls":
Caleb: "Everyone's got urges. A woman's got hers, and a man's
got his."
The First/Woman: "It's not wrong to be attracted to power,
is it?"
Caleb: "No, not wrong, only human."
Caleb: "There once was a woman, and she was soiled, like
all women, for Adam's rib was filthy, just like Adam himself,
for what was he if not human?"
Yes, Caleb makes many remarks about women being "soiled"
and lesser than men. However, he also throws in a few comments
about humanity as a whole that aren't that favorable. I think
that, like Warren, Caleb is a misanthrope who's also a misogynist;
he attacks people because they're people, but has extra-motivation
when the victim is female.
Now, here's a bit of speculation: I think that Caleb is at least
partly human. Why? Well, I have a hard time picturing an inhuman
entity as being misogynous, since it is a cultural trait among
humans that takes identification with humanity to accomplish.
After all, if you see humanity as the Other (a term I've learned
from reading this board; thanks, y'all), then you're likely either
to hate the whole lot or not. You don't really see any demons
with misogynous or racist principles towards humans, do you? No,
because to someone who's outside of humanity, those divisions
don't really seem that important. It's like how many Americans
tend to group all Europeans together in their minds, while the
national divisions probably mean a lot more to people who are
actually from Europe. So, I'm willing to wager that Caleb has
a link to humanity. Either he is human, was once human but now
isn't, or was never human but was raised as though he were one.
If the first piece of speculation is correct, than it adds an
interesting perspective to Caleb, as his misanthropy might be
a form of self-hatred. Or perhaps he's desperately struggling
to rise above humanity despite his human form, just as he said
he had moved beyond the concept of God even though he still wore
a priest's robes.
[> Re: Caleb, Misogyny,
and Misanthropy (Spoilers through "Dirty Girls" plus
speculation) -- CW, 19:13:40 04/24/03 Thu
In Never Kill a Boy on the First Date, Buffy and Giles confuse
Andrew Borba, with the Annointed One, because he was a suspected
murderer in life. This fellow also spouts pseudo-religious babble,
"If sin is in there, it's all around. It's a liquid,"
"On that day there won't be anyone telling us what to do,
or why we're doing it..." When he becomes a vampire he decides
that he's been judged worthy. He says to Buffy and Giles, "You're
the chaff. Unblessed."
I agree that Caleb is at least mostly human. Clearly, he's under
the influence of the First and revelling in the reliving murders
he committed as a human. I'd guess that his murderous, but still
human, mysogyny, if anything has been amplfied by the First. Like
with Andrew, I suspect the First has encouraged Caleb with the
idea that his own sin is irreversible and the only way to do 'good'
is to give in to his murderous side and cleanse others. The First
unfortunately seems to do his 'best' work with those who have
a human soul.
It would make sense if Faith is still where Caleb is, that the
First would rather subject her to playing on her guilt, to use
her strength against Buffy rather than killing her outright.
[> Re: Caleb, Misogyny,
and Misanthropy (Spoilers through "Dirty Girls"
-- darvangi, 19:34:09 04/24/03 Thu
Interesting post ñ I like the correlation between Warren
and Caleb, I hadnít thought of that before. Though I do
think that Warren was a relatively sane murderer fueled by emotion
and a lust for power, while Caleb is a dispassionate, completely
insane homicidal maniac ñ Warren times 10. Your point about
Calebís possession of both misanthropy and misogyny also
intrigues me, and I think that the two elements together are being
used by the show in a very clever way that is essential to the
seriesí final episodes.
The First, in what I assume is its effort to destroy humanity,
is making efficient use of Caleb's misanthropy; but along the
way we are also seeing Caleb's misogynist side as an additional
personality trait, just in case we doubted how evil he could be.
His specific debasement of women, which figures only minorly into
the overall action of the plot, serves as an interesting subtext
in relation to his hatred of humans in general, which is essential
to the story, because it mirrors in reverse order the main elements
of the Buffy character. She, on the surface of the story, is here
to protect humanity from the demon world, while on a subtext level
her physical and psychological power are a feminist message showing
us that, among other things, women can be heroes too. To many
people, including, arguably, Joss Whedon, the subtextual message
of female power is a more important aspect of the show than the
story of a struggle to protect humans from demons; and likewise
I think that, though Caleb's misanthropy is more useful to the
immediate plot, his misogyny is more important to the series,
especially here at the final episodes - new world female power
versus old world sexism.
More
on Caleb, hopefully new stuff...(*spoilers though "Dirty
Girls") -- Masamune,
18:21:33 04/24/03 Thu
Okay, so this whole Caleb thing. Most people just totally ignored
the fact that we never found out what he "Had of Buffy's".
I did too, but then down below someone said something about the
possibility of Caleb being some kind of "anti-slayer".
It got me to thinking, what if the thing that Caleb has is the
Slayer's power. Perhaps something about the original demon that
the slayers get their power from manifesting himself in Caleb,
or possessing him.
Just some ideas, do what you will.
[> But what about this little
dialouge exchange? -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:38:18 04/24/03
Thu
Buffy: "You said you have something of mine."
Caleb: "Well, I do now (guestures to the potenial slayers)!"
The implication is that Caleb's message was just a ploy to lure
Buffy to him. I'm guessing that Caleb doesn't have anything of
Buffy's. At least, he didn't until the battle.
[> [> Re: But what about
this little dialouge exchange? - - Masamune,
19:49:01 04/24/03 Thu
Touche. However, I'm still thinking that his power comes from
the same source as the slayers'. He's obviously human, or at least
used to be, because he talks about how he was raised. Also, wouldn't
it be terrible if Buffy defeats Caleb, and ends up destroying
the source of her power? That would seem to follow the FE's plan
to a "t".
Just some thoughts.
Hey,
it's a futility poll! -- Darby, 19:59:27 04/24/03 Thu
Simple question - is the current wonkiness of the board affecting
your willingness to post and respond to posts? Cause it's frustrating
the Hell out of me, especially when it loses a post I forgot to
save before approving. Then there's that "Uh oh" moment,
when you realize the approved message has been in transit just
a bit too long...
Are folks posting less? Giving up more easily? Carrying on as
usual? Or you maybe aren't experiencing any black holes?
The irony of asking you to post on this has not escaped me, but
my telepathic powers are on the wane tonight so I didn't know
how else to gather info.
[> A tip: -- HonorH,
20:04:40 04/24/03 Thu
Highlight your post and copy it before hitting "Send".
That way, even if Voynak screws you over, you can go back and
try again without having to re-type the whole dang thing.
[> [> another tip
-- anom, 21:21:58 04/24/03 Thu
When I remember to, I copy my posts into Word every time I finish
a paragraph & save them there. But then, I have a browser that
crashes sometimes, & may take my whole system w/it. This way,
even if I have to start fresh w/a blank Clipboard, I still don't
lose the post. Plus, I'm still composing it on the board, so I
don't have to worry about Word's stupid auto-"corrections."
Hey, OnM--can't believe you mentioned Smokey Stover! Haven't thought
about him in years!
[> Oh, this is futile...
*No it isn't*. Yes it is. *Is not*. Is too... *Is not!* --
OnM, for whom futility was a career choice ;-), 20:18:40 04/24/03
Thu
Or was it merely an avocation?
Whatever. Board-wise, the wonky nature hasn't kept me from posting,
but it certainly has kept me from reading as much as I would like
to. I cannot fathom why the PTBV decided to change the code so
that a refresh is demanded each and every time the main
board page is accessed!
Previously, I'd read through the board for a while and only intermittently
(manually) click for a refresh. Now, I get exhausted waiting for
it everytime I finish a short thread and have to go back.
It makes no sense-- all these additional refreshes only add tremendously
to the server overhead, so what the hell are they thinking??
As Smokey Stover always said,
Foo.
[> [> Re: Oh, this is
futile... *No it isn't*. Yes it is. *Is not*. Is too... *Is not!*
-- LadyStarlight, 06:17:57 04/25/03 Fri
Funnily enough, I'm not having the refresh problem or the post
losing problems (she says, touching wood). It's usually just the
'can't post now cos somebody else's posting' thing. And when I
hit refresh to repost, my post is still there.
Maybe Voy likes me?
[> Well, like I keep saying...
-- Masq, 20:42:10 04/24/03 Thu
If you got alterntives, I'm listening.
Well, you know, actually, I'm reading, but you know what I mean.
; o )
Masq, who now knows to save all her longer posts before hitting
the final "approve" button
[> [> Re: Well, like
I keep saying... -- Darby, 21:21:33 04/24/03 Thu
Sara, the computer person, insists that she hates computers; me,
I insist that we peons hate computer people.
But to me, the computer people are the ones doing the "upgrades"
at Voy. Being a peon, I'm naive enough to think that an upgrade
would lead to an improvement visible to the users.
And I don't think any of this reflects on you, Masq. It's another
truism of computers, that the best thing available will still
be frustrating, usually moreso when the Powers "improve"
it. And I like this system better than the other ones I've seen.
And I have learned to save before approving, but I'm old, I forget
sometimes.
[> Re: Hey, it's a futility
poll! -- d'Herblay, 21:54:43 04/24/03 Thu
I've only had one post eaten by Voy: it was a good one, though,
and one I didn't much feel like recreating. It goes into my file
of Kaboom!-generating, Halo award-winning, cancer-curing ATPo
posts that exist only in my own head.
Except for that one time, when I have experienced server vapor
lock or whatever it is, I have usually been able to backspace
my way to my complete post, so I haven't moved to the copy-and-paste
techniques others are detailing. Which means I've been lucky;
this admission means that now I am the prime candidate to be Voynak's
dinner.
[> You mean like for May
Day? -- pr10n, 21:59:32 04/24/03 Thu
Oh right, that's fertility pole. My bad.
[> It's Ok, just another
notch up on the Brain Exercise Machine -- MsGiles, 00:56:39
04/25/03 Fri
[> Re: Hey, it's a futility
poll! -- luna, 06:55:23 04/25/03 Fri
Yes! I have sometimes just stopping trying to post. And even stopped
trying to READ! But then it's so much better than not having the
board at all, that I start trying again.
Yet
another Buffy literary reference! -- ponygirl, 06:57:51
04/25/03 Fri
And I didn't even go looking for this one! Picked up the short
story collection McSweeney's Thrilling Tales (I'm halfway done,
a couple good stories but most pretty middling) and in it Nick
Hornby has a story about a kid with a magical VCR that allows
him to see into the future. One of the benefits he mentions is
looking forward to seeing the next season of Buffy before
anyone else (this year it really would be magical).
Another author displaying excellent taste!
[> It was a good story,
too. That Nick Hornby! -- Anneth, 11:38:01 04/25/03 Fri
[> Heres one.. -- Alison,
20:39:47 04/25/03 Fri
As a testament to how pathetic I am, I have read not only the
first, but also the second volume of the Princess Diaries, and
there are repeated mentions of Buffy in it- its the favorite show
of the Princess's genius crush.
I just
realized something... (Spoilers through "Sacrifice")
-- RichardX1, 07:24:34
04/25/03 Fri
According to the Burger Loa's prediction in "Loyalty"
(or was it "Sleep Tight"?), three portents would occur
before Angel devoured his son:
"The first portent will shake the earth. The second will
burn the air. The last will turn the sky to blood."
We thought those had already happened. However, that was before
"Apocalypse, Nowish":
1. The Beast emerged, rather violently from beneath the ground
(shaking the earth in the process).
2. The Beast's spell which rained fire from the sky (burning the
air, so to speak).
So what's the third portent? It could be argued that since the
darkness spell involved the blood of Ma'at, that might be the
turning of the sky into blood. Or maybe that involves something
to do with Jasmine's plan that hasn't happened yet, or perhaps
with how Angel will have to defeat her (somehow magically dispersing
her blood into the air-- pure speculation on my part, I haven't
seen anything past "Sacrifice" yet--would certainly
go a long way toward breaking her control over the populace).
Either way, the attitude between Connor and the A.I. team seems
to be simmering toward final-battle-ish. I'm not sure the Burger
Loa's prophecy has been fulfilled yet.
[> Re: I just realized something...
(Spoilers through "Sacrifice") -- Masamune,
12:17:57 04/25/03 Fri
Wait. Now I don't really know exact quotes or anything, but didn't
it turn out that those "prophecies" were just lies to
throw Angel off his game?
[> [> Re: I just realized
something... (Spoilers through "Sacrifice") -- RichardX1, 13:06:21
04/25/03 Fri
>>Wait. Now I don't really know exact quotes or anything,
but didn't it turn out that those "prophecies" were
just lies to throw Angel off his game?<<
What happened was that the demon Sahjan found out the son of the
vampire was prophesised to kill him. He did a little time-tripping,
and creatively edited a few prophecies so that he'd be able to
remove his would-be killer from the picture.
However, what if the PTBs (or Jasmine, assuming she's not one
of them) sent him that prophecy, in order for him to change it
to a more accurate one? After all, we're not talking about the
Judeo-Christian God here; No one said the PTBs won't get their
prophecies written in an under-the- table fashion.
Besides, the Burger Loa said that Angel would devour his
son. Whether he meant actually sucking Connor dry or just those
few nips of tainted pork sauce is still unresolved.
What
Does Jasmine Really Want? -- cjl, 10:09:17 04/25/03 Fri
She's an eons-old semi-divine being who's manifested in our dimension
to show us joy and happiness. Or she's the ultimate egotist who
gets off on being unconditionally worshipped. Or she's stopped
in for a bite to eat.
Analyzing each option in turn:
1. SHARE THE LOVE. At this point, it's almost impossible to tell
whether Jasmine believes her own hype. It's not uncommon for cult
leaders to be firmly convinced that they've got a pipeline to
the almighty; when you actually ARE the almighty, it might be
even tougher to shed the delusion that you're doing what's best
for your followers. Agree with Masq below that events pre-"Inside
Out" don't necessarily prove Jasmine is consciously evil.
Summoning the Beast and releasing Angelus were (huge) distractions,
not punishments--and Jaz seemed sincere about making up for those
"birth pains."
2. I'M READY FOR MY CLOSE-UP. Is Jasmine just another would-be
media celeb who's come to L.A. for her shot at the big time?
She'd obviously been hanging around in the higher realms for a
near-eternity, frustrated by the Powers' "hands off"
policy when it came to humanity, until she finally decided to
take matter into her own hands. (When she actually got some hands,
that is.) As I said in my "love is pain" post below,
she's the archetypal demiurge, who reshapes creation out of pure
ego. If you buy this theory, Jasmine doesn't get a kick out of
bringing joy and happiness to her worshippers; she gets a kick
out of the love and goodwill they feel towards HER. The devouring
of her disciples is merely an extension of her monstrous self-importance--they're
literally feeding her ego.
3. 24-HOUR A DAY TAKE-OUT. Sort of an extension of #2 above, with
the complex psychological motivations removed. In this version,
Jasmine is purely the Devourer, who looks upon humanity as a food
source and uses her shiny happy mojo to immobilize her prey.
Tend to doubt this one. I think it's more of a combination of
all of the above. I think she honestly wants to bring joy and
happiness to the people of the world, but I also think she gets
off (or even "high") on the worship. The more she solidifies
her link with her followers, the more she feels the goddess equivalent
of a "rush"; naturally, she wants to expand her control,
explore whole new vistas of mutual ecstacy with her followers--but
the wider she casts her net, the more energy she needs to keep
up the link. So, the number of followers she has to consume grows
proportionately to her strength. (Eventually, she'd bring the
entire world together in peace and harmony--just before she eats
it. But Jasmine wouldn't be sad. The people would be in ultimate
communion with their goddess. Happy happy, joy joy. On to the
next dimension!)
THE BIG UNANSWERED QUESTION: Why is her name so important?
Jasmine isn't natural to this dimension. She's gone through unimaginable
lengths, bent a lot of mystical rules to be incarnated on Earth.
But she still doesn't really belong. When Fred and the others
got infected with her blood, they were brought in contact with
her true essence, and they saw her as anti-life--hence, the maggotface.
The Devourer's new identity, Jasmine, is something of a confidence
game: she's suckered the rubes into giving her a name, they've
brought her into the house, and now she's running up the big telephone
bill and breaking into the liquor cabinet. If Angel comes back
from the Insect Dimension with the True Name, the illusion will
be broken, and they'll see her for what she is: Not Us.
Would she have been able to get as far as she did if the Fang
Gang didn't name her? Maybe, but the naming made the whole conquering
bit easier.
JMO. Comments?
[> I think...Jasmine is
Glory..no...Jasmine is Bush. No...Ben is Glory...Dawn is Jasmine...No..
-- LeeAnn, 10:40:19 04/25/03 Fri
That hell dimension did look like I envisioned the place where
Glory came from. Could Jasmine be Glory? Or one of the other two
Gods Glory ruled with?
And how about the pure, green energy she puts out when she's eating
people...like Dawn is pure, green energy.
Could Jasmine be Glory using a rotting corpse as her shell since
Giles killed Ben. Maybe that's all that is available to her.
I lean toward her being one of Glory's co-Gods from a hell dimension.
She's brighter than Glory. And less interested in footwear.
[> [> Jasmine one of
the three (speculation/spoilerish) - - heywhynot, 16:34:22
04/25/03 Fri
I tend to like the idea of Jasmine being one of the three hell
gods mentioned in season 5. Glory being one, who was cast out
by the other two. Glory it seemed could care less about earthly
matters. The other two might be Jasmine &
the First. The latter two interested in earthly matters. Each
with competing visions for the worldly plane. Jasmine like Glory
must suck energy from humans to keep her strength. Glory was sharing
a body & therefore needed only to drain mental energy. Jasmine
on the other hand has a body to herself and therefore needs to
absorb the body as well.
Jasmine wants a unified, happy humanity devoid of the pain &
suffering, a world in which everyone belongs. Those that defy
her are threats to that world and need to be eliminated. The First
on the other hand is seeking the opposite. Humanity that is full
of despair, pain & where people are against one another. Both
ways humanity is destroyed. As long as they are balanced against
one another, humanity is safe.
The balance according to the First has been disturbed by the Slayer
allowing for the First to act. At least that is my theory untl
ME proves me totally wrong with the last episodes of Buffy and
Angel this season.
[> Thanks for this!
-- Masq, 10:45:44 04/25/03 Fri
As self-appointed explainer of all things morally ambiguous and
evil in the Buffyverse, Jasmine is DRIVING ME CRAZY!!! Well, that's
factoring the motivations/identity of Evil!Cordelia as well.
3. 24-HOUR A DAY TAKE-OUT. Sort of an extension of #2 above,
with the complex psychological motivations removed. In this version,
Jasmine is purely the Devourer, who looks upon humanity as a food
source and uses her shiny happy mojo to immobilize her prey.
Tend to doubt this one. I think it's more of a combination of
all of the above.
I agree. If you just want to immobilize your prey, you friggin'
immobilize them. You hide in the sewers, or in the dark, you step
out onto the street when some tasty morsels pass your way, you
stun them with your Shiny Happy Mojo, and it's Dinnah Time.
You don't build an entire religion, take over governments, fawn
over and seduce the hearts and minds of your vittles.
But what if Jasmine's big cosmic plan is to create the universe's
largest animal farm? Maybe she's corraling the human race into
a barn where she can feed and plump us up in preparation for the
slaughter. Well, in that case, she's either got a really HUGE
appetite, or she's got friends in high places waiting for the
dinner bell. Somehow, I doubt this. We haven't seen any evidence
of it yet, and there's two eps to go.
So it's gotta be about ego, right? It's gotta be about making
the human race "One" with her and her with them and
not just in the digestion sense of the word.
Agree with Masq below that events pre-"Inside Out"
don't necessarily prove Jasmine is consciously evil. Summoning
the Beast and releasing Angelus were (huge) distractions, not
punishments--and Jaz seemed sincere about making up for those
"birth pains."
Incidentally, I'm still WAY confused about Evil!Cordelia. The
jury is still out on how much Jasmine controlled Cordelia, whether
the events of the first 3/4ths of the season were (1) all Jasmine's
doing, or whether they were (2) Enthralled!Cordelia's interpretation
of what would protect embryonic Jasmine, or (3) something in between.
I was watching "Inside Out" again last night, and the
fang gang decided theory (1) was true--Cordelia had been completely
controlled by Skip's Nameless Boss ever since "Spin the Bottle".
Of course, Angel and the others desperately want this to be so
because they don't want Cordelia to have any culpability in the
Beast, the death of innocent virgins, etc etc. But theory (2)
also doesn't make Cordelia all that culpable either.
At any rate, all this speculatin's giving me a headache, 'cause
I just don't see how we can get any definitive answers with two
episodes left.
[> [> Spoilers up to
"Sacrifice" above -- Masq, 10:47:31 04/25/03
Fri
[> [> You're welcome.
More maddeningly vague ruminations.... -- cjl, 11:12:34
04/25/03 Fri
"Incidentally, I'm still WAY confused about Evil!Cordelia.
The jury is still out on how much Jasmine controlled Cordelia,
whether the events of the first three-fourths of the season were
(1) all Jasmine's doing, or whether they were (2) Enthralled!Cordelia's
interpretation of what would protect embryonic Jasmine, or (3)
something in between."
I have to believe Jasmine's consciousness had growing influence
over Cordelia from "Spin the Bottle" on, and probably
directly intervened through Cordelia at certain points. How could
Cordelia summon The Beast in "RoF"? How did she come
up with the spell to zap Lorne in "Calvary"? She has
no knowledge of mysticism. It was Jasmine all the way--or at least
Jaz giving out the info, and Enthralled!Cordy taking VERY careful
notes.
"Of course, Angel and the others desperately want this to
be so because they don't want Cordelia to have any culpability
in the Beast, the death of innocent virgins, etc etc. But theory
(2) also doesn't make Cordelia all that culpable either."
Yeah, but if Cordy ever comes out of that coma (and if Charisma
decides to re-up for S5), she's going to feel bad about what she's
done, enthralled or not. Maybe not about the S4 shenanigans, but
the decisions she made in S3 leading up to the unholy mess. Realizing
she fell for Skip's line of hokum in both "Birthday"
and "Tomorrow" is going to be a tough nut to swallow.
Just like her "daughter," she let her ego run away with
her, and all of her friends and the rest of the world paid the
price.
[> [> [> *Oy* this
debate again! -- Masq, 11:32:17 04/25/03 Fri
The how guilty should Cordelia feel debate, which we were debating
last week in the same relative vacuum we are debating it this
week. Was Cordelia a complete "victim" of manipulation
by powerful beings last season, or did her "arrogance"
let her be manipulated? Was she at all self- aware (and guided
by visions by Jasmine) this season, or was she just Jasmine in
Cordy-clothes?
I have this feeling I'm going to be putting up small sound- bites
supporting all plausible theories at the end of the season on
my site, so give'm to me if you got'm.
[> [> [> What Darla
said (spoiler Inside Out) -- lunasea, 18:53:18 04/25/03
Fri
I have to believe Jasmine's consciousness had growing influence
over Cordelia from "Spin the Bottle" on, and probably
directly intervened through Cordelia at certain points. How could
Cordelia summon The Beast in "RoF"? How did she come
up with the spell to zap Lorne in "Calvary"? She has
no knowledge of mysticism. It was Jasmine all the way--or at least
Jaz giving out the info, and Enthralled!Cordy taking VERY careful
notes.I have to believe Jasmine's consciousness had growing influence
over Cordelia from "Spin the Bottle" on, and probably
directly intervened through Cordelia at certain points. How could
Cordelia summon The Beast in "RoF"? How did she come
up with the spell to zap Lorne in "Calvary"? She has
no knowledge of mysticism. It was Jasmine all the way--or at least
Jaz giving out the info, and Enthralled!Cordy taking VERY careful
notes.
"I have her memories, her feelings. Isn't that what makes
a person who they are?" That was Darla's response to Connor
when he doubted whether she was his mother (or something along
those lines. My photographic memory is on par with Angel's) When
dealing with the Buffyverse, we have to suspend real metaphysics.
The soul isn't the Christian or even Greek concept. Identity is
explored and isn't based on mind-body-spirit. It gets more complicated
than that.
I look at Cordelius this season as Cordy soaked in Jasmine. Cordy
with wanting to be an all-powerful being who can interfere gives
Jasmine consent to merge with her. This makes Cordy into what
she wants to do, namely help her friends. Jasmine provides her
with the ultimate means to help humanity.
Cordy has Jasmine's memories and feelings. She also has her own.
So who is she? It isn't whose memories and feelings have supremacy.
I don't see it as which is in control. Cordelius has both. She
is both. It is an interesting take on identity that probably won't
be explored this season, but I bet it will be next season.
It has ramifications for Angel who sees himself as a battle between
demon and man/soul, but really what is happening to Cordy is more
accurate. Cordelia isn't possessed by Jasmine. There isn't Cordy
somewhere in there not liking what is going on. She isn't being
controlled. As she tells Angel at the beginning of Inside Out
"You don't know me very well, then." He doesn't know
what she has become.
What is a vampire with a soul? We now have two of them. It isn't
just a human with supernatural powers and some physical draw backs.
By keeping them in human face so much, sometimes it is hard to
remember that they aren't human. They aren't possessed by a demon.
They really are a demon. We have a demon with the memories and
feelings of the human, as well as the feelings of the demon. Angel
still enjoys his evil dreams. That doesn't go away when he gets
his soul.
In "Angel" Darla tells him that he isn't one of them.
He tells her that he isn't exactly what she is any more either.
A normal vampire doesn't have all the feelings of a man. Angel
is a new creature that isn't man in conflict with vampire, but
man AND vampire.
Cordelius was also a new creature, woman AND Jasmine. That is
what separates them from humans. It will make her interesting
next season, if she survives.
[> [> I'm going for Door
#3 -- Dariel, 11:13:46 04/25/03 Fri
I agree. If you just want to immobilize your prey, you friggin'
immobilize them. You hide in the sewers, or in the dark, you step
out onto the street when some tasty morsels pass your way, you
stun them with your Shiny Happy Mojo, and it's Dinnah Time.
Yes, but if you work this way, someone (AI, for example) will
notice that people are disappearing, and try to figure out why.
The whole name bit makes Jasmine hugely vulnerable. She needs
to immobilize the minds of everyone who could possibly oppose
her and/or discover her name. (Note that she's built up her power
to the point of controlling National Guard units). Once she's
got the whole world under control, it's easy pickings.
Plus, what an ego rush--turning an entire planet into your willing
victims! Much more fun than lurking in sewers.
[> [> [> Knowledge
is power.... (Sacrifice spoilers) -- Anneth, 12:11:18 04/25/03
Fri
And it seems like most of the people roaming around LA wouldn't
have any idea how to find Jasmine's 'true' name, even if they
got to the point where they learned that such knowledge held the
key to her defeat.
The whole name bit makes Jasmine hugely vulnerable. She needs
to immobilize the minds of everyone who could possibly oppose
her and/or discover her name.
The name thing does make Jasmine voulnerable. But only to a certain
number of people, like the AI crew. They're some of the few people
who would have access to the information that it's her name (and
even then, it took a pretty big confluence of events to get to
that point) and then be able to act upon it. How many regular
Angelinos would have any idea how to get to a demon dimension?
Even if they were to accept that such things exist? And once they
got there, how could they survive, if the atmosphere is as toxic
as the 'artist' claims?
So it seems that Jasmine, if she'd been wise about this, would
have eaten the AI gang first thing, so as to decrease the possibility
(admittedly pretty small) that anyone who might conceivably run
across the 'find Jasmine's true name in an arid demon dimension
filled with golum-like bug- creatures in order to defeat her and
her legions of brainwashed minions' information would actually
go do something with it.
Which brings us back to the vexing question of Jasmine's motives.
Assuming she'd even considered this possibility, why not do something
about it? An egotistical sense of her own invincibility? Or maybe
she didn't think about it at all. Sigh.
I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the FE wants;
I'm equally flummoxed about Jasmine. Will she have to continue
eating people to maintain her power? Or is she more like the mummy
in the most recent adaptation of The Mummy, who needed to consume
only a finite number of people in order to become all-powerful?
If it's the former, what will happen if she ends up eating everyone
on the entire face of the planet? Then she'd be all powerful,
but only over bugs and trees and stuff. If it's the latter, what
then? What will she do once she's enthralled the entire world?
Get bored and move on to another dimension, leaving the earth
filled with miserable muttering creatures desperate to get her
back, much like the dimension Angel's just entered?
Well, like I said, it's all pretty vexing. And flummoxing. And
other words with 'x' in them, like Xanadu and exhale. Only in
a more attenuated fashion. Yay, it's Friday, and my brain just
realized it! ;)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Knowledge is power.... (Sacrifice spoilers) -- Corwin of Amber,
20:40:53 04/25/03 Fri
>If it's the former, what will happen if she ends up eating
everyone on the entire face of the planet? Then she'd be all powerful,
but only over bugs and trees and stuff. If it's the latter, what
then? What will she do once she's enthralled the entire world?
Get bored and move on to another dimension, leaving the earth
filled with miserable muttering creatures desperate to get her
back, much like the dimension Angel's just entered?
If she's truly all powerful at that point, its obvious what she'd
do: create in her own image, and populate the earth with a new
race of Jasmaniacs. But I suspect she'll never be that powerful...meaning
she'd probably move on to another world/dimension whatever you
want to call it. Which leaves us with the eerie image of a multitude
of worlds with populations crying out for Jasmine.
Hmmm. The Flesh Artist implied that they knew Jasmine's true name.
Did they use it to banish her from their plane, I wonder?
[> Re: What Does Jasmine
Really Want? -- Arethusa, 11:02:26 04/25/03 Fri
I gave the following opinion in another thread:
Under Jasmine's spell, it seems people still can feel pain, although
Jasmine promises to take away all their pain. Gunn's still bitter
about Fred, Angel and Connor still brood. When Jasmine is trying
to convince Connor, she inflicts pain on him, drawing blood. When
her followers are being injured, she laughs in delight, literally
absorbing their cuts. Does she feed on pain? Did she absorb the
humans to absorb their pain?
I have no idea why her name is so important, unless names just
have a mystical factor in her dimension. Sort of a Beetlejuice
thing. But I thought it was interesting, considering what I think
is an important message in the Whedonverse--by truly knowing yourself,
knowing who you really are without illusions or pretensions, you
have much more power over yourself.
[> [> Names... like Glory
-- Masq, 11:20:41 04/25/03 Fri
Well, as the "What's in a Name?" thread explains, names
of mystical beings in some cultures are thought to be the key
to their power. If you do know an entity's "real" name,
you can have power over them. Like Rumpelstiltskin.
It's interesting, because there was a throw-away line in "There's
No Place Like Home", from Buffy season 5 in which Giles explains
this in reference to the being who will shortly be named "Glory":
"Entities that go unnamed are usually objects of deep worship
or great fear." It's throw- away because nothing ever came
of this. They didn't need to know Glory's real name to defeat
her.
But this will be the key to overthrowing Jasmine. Other people
have also speculated on what Jasmine "is". If Glory
is a god, what is Jasmine? A higher being? A PTB? A god? She's
an object of great worship, in this dimension and others. She
SHOULD be an object of great fear.
Unlike Glory, she seems to care about human beings, or she has
needs relative to them. Like Glory, she preys on them. Unlike
Glory, I doubt she'd destroy the world to get what she wants.
Or maybe she will. Maybe she'll try to destroy it in spite if
the world won't worship her.
[> [> something i've
been wondering about -- anom, 16:27:05 04/25/03 Fri
"When Jasmine is trying to convince Connor, she inflicts
pain on him, drawing blood. When her followers are being injured,
she laughs in delight, literally absorbing their cuts."
We see the fingernail marks & the slashes appear on Jasmine & then
disappear. What we don't see is whether the corresponding original
marks disappear from the people they were inflicted on. Did the
bloody fingernail punctures fade from Connor's hand? Did the cuts
the Free Will Gang gave the National Guard (if that's who they
are) go away, or are the troops bleeding to death? We already
know Jasmine's followers are expendable.
"But I thought it was interesting, considering what I think
is an important message in the Whedonverse--by truly knowing yourself,
knowing who you really are without illusions or pretensions, you
have much more power over yourself."
Very well put--I like this!
[> [> [> It plays
out on Buffy (spoiler Get it Done) -- lunasea, 19:05:15
04/25/03 Fri
"But I thought it was interesting, considering what I
think is an important message in the Whedonverse--by truly knowing
yourself, knowing who you really are without illusions or pretensions,
you have much more power over yourself."
Very well put--I like this!
Lots of references about this in "Restless" that have
yet to play out. Wonder how they will in the remaining 4 episodes.
My own interpretation of Restless is that "The Spirit of
the First Slayer" that is in all four dreams is actually
Buffy. In the dream state, like in "Orpheus," a person
dissociates into his/her various components. The First Slayer
wasn't following Buffy. She is Buffy, or at least part of her.
Those dreams weren't some external entity trying to get revenge
because she was insulted (Giles can be wrong). It was the Slayer
in her that was acting out, which also causes her to hunt more.
By calling on the spirit that is actually inside of her, she empowered
it. She still doesn't understand what she has become though.
A similar thing happens in "Get it Done." Ever hear
your mother's voice as the voice of doubt? Same thing here, though
Buffy's voice looks like the First Slayer. That voice isn't external
to Buffy, but internal.
[> One thing she likes
-- luna, 11:37:57 04/25/03 Fri
I think she honestly wants to bring joy and happiness to the
people of the world, but I also think she gets off (or even "high")
on the worship. The more she solidifies her link with her followers,
the more she feels the goddess equivalent of a "rush";
naturally, she wants to expand her control, explore whole new
vistas of mutual ecstacy with her followers--but the wider she
casts her net, the more energy she needs to keep up the link.
I'm not sure what she ultimately wants, but the scene of her on
the balcony during the battle makes clear that she doesn't just
revel in the happiness she brings, but also in pain and destruction.
That's a really weird scene, with the cuts people are receiving
in the battle showing up and healing on her body. She's clearly
loving the fight.
And what of her sojourn in the hell dimension/monsterland? She
didn't seem to bring much joy there, either ("Love is sacrifice").
I think she definitely wants something different.
I'm with those who think Borg and Childhood's End. I think
her speeches about joy and love are just forms of manipulation--I
don't see any sense of her feeling that when she's alone (eating
people being her main pastime, apparently).
But I haven't read the "love is pain" post and will
go look for it.
[> [> That scene on the
balcony WAS cool...but there's another explanation. -- cjl,
11:53:31 04/25/03 Fri
Jasmine may not have been reveling in the pain and destruction.
She might have been grooving on the fact that she could TRANSCEND
the pain and destruction. Nothing Angel and the FG could do could
harm the Jaz and her followers, because she could absorb and heal
their wounds almost instantaneously. (Whoa, what a rush.)
Again, JMO. You could be right. We'll see next week. (I hope.)
[> [> [> Re: That
scene on the balcony WAS cool...but there's another explanation.
-- Darby, 12:32:23 04/25/03 Fri
But we don't know if the followers were being healed, just that
her second-hand wounds were disappearing as quickly as they appeared,
a level of power she hadn't shown before. Would she care if the
followers were healed? That may be an important point - or not.
[> [> [> I wonder
-- ponygirl, 13:18:31 04/25/03 Fri
I'm thinking that perhaps Jasmine gets off on feeling itself.
That perhaps she was somewhat like the FE and incorporeal in her
natural state and is now reveling in the experience of emotional
and physical sensation. Now that she's at the point where she
can heal herself instantly there's really no negative attached
to pain, it could be just another type of rush.
I haven't seen enough evidence for it, but it would be really
interesting if Jasmine's drives were shaped by those of her followers.
When she brings Angel and Connor under the influence she offers
love and forgiveness, then when she encounters the entire AI team
her focus shifts to a "mission", that of changing the
world, certainly the deep hope of the gang. Now that there are
so many within her (she is large, she contains multitudes)her
ambitions seem larger and more diverse. Could Jasmine be giving
the people what they want, the dark impulses as well as the love?
Though probably her ultimate goal is just to try out a few recipes
from that nifty "To Serve Man" cookbook.
[> [> [> [> "It's
just another sensation" -- Masq, 13:37:38 04/25/03
Fri
That's what she says about the wound on her arm that she got from
the vampire, I think when Connor asked if it hurt or apologized
for her getting hurt or something. That's some evidence she doesn't
mind pain at least, and may grow to "get off on it".
As for incorporating the desires of her followers into herself,
she has kind of given up on the whole demon jihad thing since
Angel and company parted ways with her. Now she's after them.
[> [> [> Healing and
getting Naked. (Minor Trailer spoil for next week) -- neaux,
14:00:46 04/25/03 Fri
Ok. You got me thinking about that Balcony scene. So she is healing
herself without consuming more humans? Has she really reached
that level of power? Or is healing herself in that manner draining
her battery?
Since I made sure to watch the trailer for next week..
MINOR SPOIL
There is a scene of what looks like a Nelly "HOT in HERE"
video of everyone gettin nekkid. So maybe the battle we see really
is putting a hurt on her lifespan, and she needs some lunchables
to reenergize.
[> [> [> [> She
has that increased healing power because of the lunchables
-- Masq, 14:47:52 04/25/03 Fri
In "SHP", she had to put a rag over her cut while it
healed. In "Magic Bullet", she looked in the mirror
and concentrated a little and made the bullet wound go away. In
"Sacrifice", her wounds are healing as soon as she gets
them.
In the meantime, she's eating more and more people. Drawing on
that power to make herself stronger, AND drawing on that power
to make her connection with humans closer:
In "SHP" she has only the power to make people enthralled.
In "Magic Bullet" she can read minds and send telepathic
messages. In "Sacrifice" she receives her follower's
wounds and speaks through them. She can also heal Connor's wounds
instantly.
Who knows what she'll be able to do next week? But the increased
lunchables are correlated with all of it.
[> [> [> [> [>
lunchables? LOL Masq! and yet she hasn't seemed to gain an
ounce. -- WickedRichardSimmons, 20:48:22 04/25/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Jasmines
Possible Food Allergies(spoilers to Sacrifice) -- WickedBuffy,
13:39:14 04/26/03 Sat
We see that she has them remove all their clothing pre- buffet.
She appears to consume all the flesh, bone, everything organic.
What happens if someone has a piercing, umm, in an unnoticeable
spot? Or a plate in their head. Did that biker have an earring
in? If so, is that a possible vulnerability? Could Cordelias blood
hurt Jasmine - and thats why Jasmine stored her away? (I don't
think J absorbed C.)
Just wondering if humans are all she can eat... can she eat puppies?
demons? what happens if she eats someone infected? Would she become
infected with her own self and look in the mirror to see Ms Maggoty
Head instead of Cleopatra 2000's sexy cohort?
If someone elses blood mixes into her blood.... as in the bullet
Fred shot going thru Angel and hitting Jasmine? Is the influence
reversed? Is this power of the blood a mutual possible influence?
Can the AI's affect her with their blood. When she dug her nails
into Connors hand, and then it showed up on hers, was she showing
how much power is in blood for her?
The insect-looking creature kept talking about blood. He was also
building something. (I'm hoping it's a portal to take Jasmine
back to HIS temporal zipcode. He errrrr wait, it could be a she,
anyway IT also was not going to be tricked into giving Jasmines
other name away. Perhaps he needs it to complete his ritual. The
AI's might have just found a very skitterish but knowledgeable
rival.)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Jasmines Possible Food Allergies(spoilers to Sacrifice)
-- WickedBuffy, 13:42:52 04/26/03 Sat
[> [> [> I agree with
your interpretation (spoiler Sacrifice) -- lunasea, 19:13:38
04/25/03 Fri
Especially because the first time we say her unhappy or phased
was when she was burned when attempting to locate Fred. I think
she gets a rush off of being in communion with others. She does
this through telepathy, projecting her voice and later by healing
the wounds like that. Either she is healing her followers' wounds
when she does that or she is so linked that she feels them. When
she was born, she did revel in the 5 senses.
When she eats people, she is elated. That is the ultimate communion.
"Connor, I need you" she tells him when she is shot.
"People who need people...are the luckiest people."
What about Jasmines who need people? Jasmine is growing stronger
the more she joins with others. Her appetite is also increasing.
Now I am thinking about what Buffy told Angel in "Amends,"
"If this thing needs you then it is weak and you can hurt
it." (paraphrased). If Jasmine needs people, if that need
can be cut off, she can be defeated.
She poured herself into a vessel. When she was in Cordy she was
vulnerable. How invincable is she now?
[> Queen J -- cjl, 11:44:58
04/25/03 Fri
Jasmine, technically, is Cordy and Connor's child. Given that
she looks like Gina Torres, we haven't taken her "parentage"
seriously, and we've classified her arrival as more of a virgin/mystical
birth. But maybe she takes after mommy and daddy a lot more than
we think.
Is Jasmine a metanarrative comment on her parents' personality
flaws?
She's got the Queen C thing going, just like Mom. She wants to
be the most popular girl in the crowd, and she doesn't mind stepping
on (or eating) a few people to do it. She's also dedicated to
a mission of Doing Good, despite some pretty big flaws in the
Mission Statement....
She wants to belong--just like Dad. Jasmine revels in the communion
with her followers, and she wants to wipe away the pain of loneliness
and indecision. Connor follows her as if he's been waiting for
her all his life. He's not shocked free of her control at the
start of "Sacrifice" because there was no shock--he's
known who she is all along.
[> [> Interesting...
-- Masq, 11:56:24 04/25/03 Fri
Would a being as powerful as her be that tied to genetics? Or
even the "mystical genetics" of inheriting personality
traits?
I mean a lowly miracle child/human/demonoid like Connor, who's
known his father only a year, acts just like him. He's like mini-Angel
with an even bigger chip on his shoulder.
But Jasmine? Is she "mini-Cordy"? Cordelia writ large?
Is she Connor's need for belonging on steroids??
You know, this would explain why Jasmine is SO different now from
the kind of person depicted by Evil!Cordelia. One thing that is
puzzling us is why Jasmine could be the bringer of terror and
torment for five months, and then become all goddess-of-lovie
after her birth.
Maybe it's the genetics of the "vessel" she poured herself
into in "Inside Out". Once she left Cordelia's body
and entered the "vessel", she was bound by its (meta-)physical
limitations, including adopting the personality traits of her
"parents".
[> [> [> "Cordelia
writ large....Connor's need for belonging on steroids"
-- cjl, 12:06:11 04/25/03 Fri
Yes and yes.
I was approaching the idea metaphorically, but what the hey, literally
doesn't sound too bad either.
I just think Joss and ME are commenting on the flaws of Connor
and Cordelia through Jasmine. (In typical ME fashion, any flaw
or screw up by a major character is magnified to apocalyptic proportions...)
[> [> [> Connor's
Blood -- tomfool, 12:16:47 04/25/03 Fri
Speaking of genetics, has anyone brought up the following question?
If Cordelia's blood breaks Jasmine's spell, why wouldn't Connor's?
If mystical genetics follows human genetics at all, then Cordy
is 50% and Connor is 50% of the mystical DNA.
And how does this relate to the fact that Connor, at least originally,
seemed to fall under Jasmine's influence exactly like the others.
Wouldn't he have reacted differently if his blood was the antidote.
Also, if Cordy's blood is the antidote, when she wakes up from
her coma (if?) then will she already be 'cured' or react like
Connor?
Or another possibility - is Connor even Jasmine's father? Could
the father really be the Beast, given Cordy's disturbing snuggling
up to him. That would explain why Connor was susceptible to Jasmine's
thrall like everyone else.
So many questions an only two eps left.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Connor's Blood is 50-50 too -- pr10n, 22:21:42 04/25/03
Fri
Wel, me and Father Mendel think that Angel and Darla are in there,
too, with the possible meaning that Angel's blood should do at
least part of the job, or refined Angel blood could do it all.
Unless of course that's all been Jas-spoof and Angel is not really
Connor's father.
Oh great, raise the flag of heresy over MY keyboard.
[> The Devourer of Worlds,
perhaps? -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:51:04 04/25/03 Fri
We know of at least one other dimension that she's been in (the
one of the insect demons) where she was loved and revered like
she was on earth. Why, we must wonder? Perhaps Jasmine is like
the Hansel and Gretel demon from "Gingerbread". In describing
it, Giles said that some demons' prefered method of destruction
is to use humanity to destroy humanity. Jasmine could be operating
in the same way. She goes to one dimsension and gets everyone
to adore her. Then she either causes them all to go to their deaths,
or leaves, leaving them to wallow in their own misery and destroy
each other over it. Just as H&G went from community to communtiy,
Jasmine could go from dimension to dimension, first spreading
love and then using it as a tool for great destruction.
Guess we'll have to wait to see the demon dimension Angel's in
to make that call.
[> [> Queen J--of the
hive--or not -- luna, 18:39:07 04/25/03 Fri
Maybe that dimension used to be different. Maybe they got so warped
and demonic as a result of worshipping her--maybe that's where
they got the concept of love as sacrifice and pain. So after she
hangs around for awhile, people would not be so shiny and happy,
and would be more...mantis-like.
Or maybe the creatures are really termite-like. She seems more
and more like a queen in an insect hive, doesn't she?
I looked for pictures of insects and found that the creatures
really look more like scorpions than either mantises or termites.
see here:
http://www.desertusa.com/oct96/du_scorpion.html
But scorpions don't have queens (though I don't recommend reading
about their mating behavior). So I guess there's not a neat insect
parallel around, after all.
[> Re: What Does Jasmine
Really Want? she wants what every fanatical leader wants of course
-- 110v3w1110w, 20:05:28 04/25/03 Fri
what is happening on angel is pure fanaticism jasmins ideaology
can not exist peacefuly along side others its the same as any
other fanatical ideaology in that respect eg. communism, fascism,
christianity, islam and if theres one thing that the various leaders
of those fanatical ideaologys wanted it was power, they may have
dressed it up it somthing else like they want to create a workers
paradise or in jasmins case she wants to bring love and peace
but in the end they want power and to these people that is the
goal to gain power for the sake of having power and not to do
anything with it except try to gain more and all the lies they
say to convince people to follow them are meaningless they will
say anything and do anything that gets them power.
[> [> Her own show on
WB and a part in Madonna's newest video? -- WickedBuffy, 21:02:46
04/25/03 Fri
Wild
Goose Chase (Spoilers for current seasons) -- Spike Lover,
11:05:51 04/25/03 Fri
Does anyone else feel kind of wierd where both these seasons are
going?
On Angel, -where we began this season, and where we ended up now,
even logical?
As convoluted as Angel has seemed to me, Buffy in contrast has
seemed so 'straight lined'. A to B with very little subplot.
My initial thoughts were about Angel though...
We started this year with Cordy returning, Wesley having his own
gang -and a delicious, 'get it done' attitude, with a slice of
Lilah on the side.
Then we had a reunification of the forces as they fight the beast.
Did the beast actually serve any plot point other than to reunite
the characters? We have 'Electra girl' introduced, finding a solution
to her problem and possibly getting it on with Gunn. I assume
this is going to have more weight for next year. But it has next
to nothing to do with THIS SEASON. Then we have evil Cordy possibly
getting it on with the beast. (Did that mean anything?)
We have Angelus coming back (maybe for sweeps) but his information
means next to nothing in the overall Jasmine plot line.
What I really despise, I think, more than anything else about
this season is the ax taken to W & H. They had really groomed
those lawyers to be the shadow of evil. 1st Lindsey leaves. then
they ax Lilah.
Who knows? maybe they wanted to leave the show. Or perhaps if
Lilah had stayed and W & L had continued to see each other, it
would have mirrored the S & B relationship of season 6. I still
think the Wesley & Lilah affair was the most compelling plot line
of the entire story.
Anyone else having mixed emotions?
[> One thing I did notice
about S4 Angel (general spoilers) -- Shiraz, 12:51:37 04/25/03
Fri
Is that this season is the first time the Angel Inc. has dealt
with a real, capital A, apocalypse. I realize that on occasion
they have saved the world a couple of times in one- off episodes,
but these mini-apocalypses were never really part of the seasonal
story arc.
Season 4 is the first time the major arc on Angel has been all
about 'saving the world', and, while I thoroughly enjoy the story
and quality of writing going on here, I don't know If I like the
idea of Angel turning into a 'stop the big-bad, save the world'
sort of show.
In my opinion, I like the idea that Angel & Co. help by saving
a few people at a time. Their mission until now has been small
scale; they were a small gang working for what they thought was
right in a huge, impersonal city. The only bad they did regularly
face was a rather banal one, they were more concerned with who
gets the corner office than any kind of world domination.
Now, with the rumored "paradigm switch" ahead I'm afraid
Angel will be caught in the same trap Buffy has been in for the
past four years: the need to made THIS seasons big bad so much
bigger and badder than LAST year's big bad.
This could present problems;
especially considering that the're STARTING with a hell- god.
-Shiraz
"I would like it to be clearly understood that this book
is not wacky. Only dumb redheads in Fifties' sitcoms are wacky."
Terry Pratchett: "Equal Rites" -- The author makes his
intentions clear
Eat
My Dust ("Get it Done" and "Release" - no
later ep spoilers, please mark spoilers in replies) -- KdS,
11:52:05 04/25/03 Fri
If you've lost your faith in love and music, oh the end won't
be long
Because if it's gone for you then I too may lose it and that would
be wrong
I've tried so hard to keep myself from falling back into the bad
old ways
And it chars my heart to always hear you calling, calling for
the good old days
'Cos there were no good old days
These are the good old days
The Libertines
We're having a party, we're burning it down
We're building an idol, he's sad but he don't frown
He's the cream of the crop, so we're making him god
Start writing this down when I give you the nod
Them Coptic monks knew how to keep it real
That Zoroastrian thing, that Rosicrucian deal
Well they might be wrong, they don't give a damn
Long as they don't run out of sacrificial lambs
Eat my dust and I'll clean your clock
Do everything I tell you, and then we'll talk
Eat my dust and I'll be your man
You can be my sacrificial lamb
Warren Zevon
Get it Done saw Buffy coming in for an awful lot of
criticism on the boards. The most serious criticism was the allegation
of hypocrisy, that she was requiring Willow and Spike to risk
giving in to their inner demons, but refusing such a risk herself.
There are two main answers to this. Firstly, that she was merely
asking Willow and Spike to access powers that they had already
had in the past and used without losing their humanity, while
given the Shadowmen's lack of communication she had no way of
knowing that additional demon infusion might not leave her a soulless
killing machine that had to be chained up in the basement between
Turok-Hahns. Secondly, it is not hypocrisy to change your mind,
and her conversation with Willow after the incidents of the day
suggested that she was regretting her earlier actions. Where I
do have the problem is with what some people on the board have
referred to as the "You all suck" speech. It's not the
offensiveness that I'm really criticising here - she'd just had
to bury someone in her back garden after all, and I'm willing
to forgive her for temporarily ignoring the fact that with no
obvious pattern to the FE's actions, no-one has much idea what
to do. My problem, I realised after I'd gone home, was with one
specific phrase in the speech which suggests that she fails to
recognise her own contribution to Chloe's death. She refers to
Chloe as stupid, yes, but weak? After all, in her Potential
speech she'd told the Potentials to concentrate on their own survivial.
No hint of mutual support there. And as I reconstruct the situation,
it wasn't weakness that killed Chloe, it was a foolish attempt
to be strong, to deal with an FE attack without seeking anyone
else's help. Maybe if Buffy had suggested that the Potentials
should come closer together, Chloe might have felt able to seek
some moral support.
The other person who comes out of the ep looking very bad is Kennedy.
As I said to yab last night, there are all sorts of reasons why
Kennedy would be appointed head Potential - she's eldest, most
highly trained when she arrived in Sunnydale, and most naturally
self-confident. The problem is that those things needed to be
brought out in this ep, or earlier, preferably before The Killer
in Me, because what we actually see through the last couple
of episodes can give rise to the apparently widespread impression
that she's being given special privileges as Willow's chosen bed-
warmer, which I don't think was the intention at all. I can forgive
the "maggot" business. I was in a couple of fairly paramilitary
youth organisations in my youth, and I spent two years at a traditionalist
English school which still had prefects (which I consciously refused
to be when I joined). I've seen how the kindest and most sensitive
people aged under eighteen can suddenly mutate into power-crazed
bullies as soon as they're given any kind of official power over
others. In the ideal situation, however, someone older and wiser
notices what's going on.
Wood continues to bug me, I'm with Shadowkat here - I just don't
like the way he goes into an effortless mode of male command when
he's around Buffy. I really didn't like the "Say yes to Principal
Wood" line. The Slayer bag business is so blatantly a plot
device that I can forgive the obvious problems with the course
of events as described - you just have to accept the failure to
retrieve the bag after Nikki's death as one more example of the
decadence and incompetence of the 20th-century Watchers' Council.
Smaller issues: the scene of Spike killing Nikki at the end of
the "Previously" segment was specially reshot with the
new actress. Who says ME don't pay attention to the little things
any more? There was a very interesting cut at the climax of the
ep from Buffy kicking a Shadowman to Spike being slammed against
the wall by the demon which seemed to be suggesting some kind
of equation between the Shadowman and Spike - I'll have to think
about that one. Finally, I'll have to rewatch when the video/DVD
comes out, because I don't know whether the very brief apparent
darkening of Willow's hair as the portal opens was deliberate
or just an accidental consequence of the lighting.
I'm having to restrain myself on Release, because I'm trying
to keep this post spoiler free. It's hard to say whether Wes's
speech to Faith was just to prepare her for Angelus saying the
same thing, what Wes really thinks now, or just a bit of delayed
revenge for Faith torturing him. I suspect he probably couldn't
answer that either. Faith was showing a little more mental fragility
this ep than last week, but I still really like the new model.
The Faith/Angelus fight was one of the longest and most brutal
in the series' history. As yab said at the time, "Who said
Angelus wasn't being violent enough?". I admire the continued
willingness to take the piss out of Angelus - the scene in the
club when the other demons think he's mad or drugged was a hoot.
The Fred/Gunn scene really jolted me mentally. It took a good
two lines for me to realise that they we're talking about Fred
kissing Wes rather than killing Seidel.
Wasn't Connor trying to vamp out the cutest thing in the series
for ages? Poor manipulated little demonspawn...
So, is Faith dead or vamped? All I'm saying is that if any of
you are B5 fans, the post title is a very oblique clue to what'll
happen next week. And the song lyrics aren't just related to the
Buffy ep, either. (If any of you include more explicit spoilers
for later eps in your replies, please mark them).
[> Release (spoilers up
to Sacrfice) -- yabyumpan (aka Cheerleader for Cordy) :o),
17:18:35 04/25/03 Fri
GRRRR ARRRGH, I've just done a really long post for both shows
and then pressed clear instead of send! STUPID STUPID STUPID ,
bad, bad, fingers......
ok, calmed down but I'm not going to do the whole thing again
now but I'm going to try to re-type the last thing I wrote and
hopefully I can put the rest up in the morning, I'm obviously
beyond tired.
Evil Cordy....this isn't related to the episode but more carrying
on discussions on the board about names and their power. Pretty
much everybody (including me) has been calling Cordelia this season
EvilCordy but is this right and what is it doing to our
perceptions of the character? Even from a non-mystical perspective,
names have power, they have the power to fire out imaginations.
When we hear someone's name that we've never met, our mind starts
to build a picture of that person. Even the board names we chose
are chosen to give some sort of impression, to reflect who we
are/want to be/who or what we love/to make people smile, etc.....
So our names and what we call other people are important. The
name 'Jasmine' evokes all sorts of images in our minds which fit
who she's trying to be, can we imagine her being called Gertrude
or Hilda (no offence to any Gertrudes or Hildas out there!). By
the same token, I doubt most people would want to call their child
Adolf, probably a fairly popular name in Europe untill 60 years
ago. Most people would probably not call their child by the name
of some one they were bullied by at school or an ex-lover who
treated them badly.
So, back to EvilCordy. I've decided to stop calling her
that, I think I'm going to go with Possessed Cordy. I'm
doing this for a couple of reasons:
Firstly, it's inacurate. What ever people think of Cordelia, whether
they think that she allowed Jasmine in because of vainity or naivety
or or a mis-guided sense of doing good, I don't think anyone actually
believes that Cordelia herself is actually 'evil'. So the name
we've been calling her all season is actually the wrong name.
Secondly, going back to the whole 'power of names' thing, by calling
her 'evil Cordy' we are continually re-inforcing the idea that
Cordelia is evil. This allows people to not feel compassion for
her, to forget that this is a person who has been possessed by
another entity. Cordelia hasn't gone evil and killed two people,
brought out the Beast and destroyed much of L.A., that was the
entity inside her which either influenced her in much the same
way as she influenced the rest of the population once she got
out or it was the entity totally taking over her body and mind
and using her to do all those things. Either way, it wasn't Cordelia,
consciously and with malice, being evil.
By calling her PossessedCordy we can actually start looking
at the reality of the situation for Cordelia. Has she just been
taken over and her consciousness drowned out so she has no awareness
of what's been happening? or is she still fully aware but trapped
and unable to do anything about it. I was interested in 'Release'
when possessedCordy was describing to Angelus what it must be
like for him to live inside Angel:
Because you're the voice in there, aren't you? Just below the
surface. Buried under all that goodness. Fully conscious, fully
aware.....but trapped. Unable to move or speak. Powereless to
act on your desires. So thirsty, so helpless. It must be agony
Is Jasmine-inside-Cordelia picking up what it feels like for Cordy,
trapped and helpless? And if Cordy is fully conscious and fully
aware, what sort hell must she be going through?
So I'm going to stick with PossessedCordy now, it might
not be as snappy as evilCordy but it's far more accurate and doesn't
cast false aspersions on Cordelia.
[> [> Ooops, spoilers
up to 'Sacrifice' above' -- yabyumpan, 17:20:07 04/25/03
Fri
[> [> But you're still
making assumptions (spoilers up to SHP at least) -- Masq,
18:37:34 04/25/03 Fri
I agree, the name Evil!Cordelia does put a bias in things that
perhaps shouldn't be there. I for one don't think Cordelia's "gone
evil".
But I also honestly don't think she was buried down inside her
own body that was possessed by Jasmine for the entire season,
either.
And believe me, I considered that theory. I've rewatched the Season
4 episodes again and again with different theories of what's going
on with Cordelia.
(1) Is it 100% Cordelia? Only if you can believe she'd ax- murder
someone, twice (Manny and the virgin girl).
(2) Is it completely submerged Cordelia, with no control over
her actions? Only if Jasmine is really, really good at doing Cordelia
imitations, especially in episodes prior to Calvary but even after
that. Not to mention the fact that she reacts exactly as Cordelia
would when no one else is around (examples from Habeas Corpses
spring to mind). Not to mention the fact that Cordelia gets visions
we get to see in several episodes. Why would Jasmine be getting
visions if it's just Jasmine in control?
(3) Does Cordelia gradually go from being herself to becoming
possessed by Jasmine as her pregnancy develops? This is a good
one. Although you have to accept that she's pretty much possessed
by Jasmine by "Long Day's Journey" when she takes out
Manny with an ax.
(4) Is Cordelia herself but under a "Shiny Happy" spell
after "Spin the Bottle"? This is a good one, too, because
the people under that spell maintain most of their personality
traits but start doing drastic things to show their love for Jasmine.
Cordy might have been motivated by the spell to do whatever she
thought was necessary to protect her baby, Jasmine. The only problem
with this theory is Cordelia doesn't act "shiny and happy",
she pretty much just acts like herself.
There are lots of "in between" theories like (3) and
(4) that explain why Cordelia is so Cordelia-like and explain
why she did the things she did while still leaving her relatively
non-culpable and blameless for what happened. It's just a matter
of finding one that best fits the events of the span of episodes
in Season 4.
[> [> [> Re: But you're
still making assumptions (spoilers up to SHP at least) --
yabyumpan, 20:29:22 04/25/03 Fri
Agreed, my original post was much clearer :-< . although I
did put that was the entity inside her which either influenced
her in much the same way as she influenced the rest of the population
once she got out or it was the entity totally taking over her
body and mind and using her to do all those things. in my
post.
As for why she was acting so Cordelia like earlier on, I see Jasmine
as filtering herself though Cordy's mind. Someone suggested in
another post that Jasmine had taken on the traits of her parents.
I think that maybe there was some sort of mind-meldy thing going
on while Jasmine was still in her, with Cordy's brain interpreting
Jasmine's presence and intentions and acting them out in a Cordy
like way. I.E. the hammy voice inside Angelus's head I would see
as a very Cordy like interpretation of an evil 'master's voice'.
I do think the full possession was a gradual process though, I
don't think she was faking the 'morning after' horror in Habeas
Corpses. I think that also shows that at that time,Cordy herself
wasn't actually under Jasmine's shiney happy spell. If she thought
she was doing Jasmine's work by sleeping with Connor, she wouldn't
have been so horrified.
I don't know if I explained all that very well, still very tired
even if my brain won't fully shut down!
The actual post though was more about trying to humanise Cordy
and actually generate some compassion for her. I see calling her
evilCordy in the same way as some sections of the press and governments
calling the enemy 'monsters'. It allows us not to think of them
as human. Whatever's happened to her, however it's happened, why
and at what stage, the fact is that it's a terrible thing to happen
to a basically good person. PossessedCordy allows a way in for
compassion in a way that EvilCordy doesn't.
[> [> [> [> I'm
going to post the strongest theories on my site -- Masq, 04:08:35
04/26/03 Sat
For what happened to Cordy, but I'm going to wait until after
4.22 to do it, just in case we get more definitive answers
by then.
Your theory is certainly a contender.
[> [> [> My theory
(spoilers Inside Out) -- lunasea, 08:42:52 04/26/03 Sat
Cordelius is Cordy soaked in Jasmine. She is 100% Cordelia and
100% Jasmine. Darla said "I have her memories, her feelings.
Isn't that what makes a person who they are?" What if Cordelius
has her own memories, her own feelings, PLUS Jasmine's memories
and Jasmine's feelings? Is she Cordelia? Is she Jasmine? She would
do things that only Cordelia wouldn't. She would also do things
that only Jasmine wouldn't.
It would also explain the reading Lorne got Pre-Spin the Bottle.
He was only picking up Jasmine, but Jasmine's memories and feelings
weren't enough to do anything in this dimension until she had
a vessel to pour herself into. Jasmine is vulnerable because she
needs Cordy's memories and feelings to make her real in this dimension,
so Cordelius does things that Jasmine may not have. Jasmine cannot
control Cordy and evil was done in her name.
This would also tie nicely to Angel's metaphysics. He isn't Liam
and he isn't demon. He has the memories and feelings of both (though
the demon has no real memories). He is Angel.
Possessed Cordy, Evil Cordy. Neither really fit for me. I like
Cordelius, though she still has her soul.
As the Cordelia expert on the board, how do you think this fits
the events, Masq?
[> [> [> Big Red X
on #4 for me! (spoilers up to SHP at least) -- WickedBuffy,
11:04:37 04/26/03 Sat
I like #4.
Your question about it was:
"The only problem with this theory is Cordelia doesn't act
"shiny and happy", she pretty much just acts like herself."
We've seen Jasmines powers gradually grow stronger and stronger
since she was "born". Especially after she absorbs her
lunchables. I always thought the way that Spin the Bottle spell
went awry was suspicious - but didn't exactly know why.
If Jasmine was just beginning to "grow" in Cordy, then
her powers to create Happy Shiny people would probably be very
minimal, also. Plus, she's only feeding off Cordy, and carefully
- not enough to weaken Cordy. Cordy is her hands and legs to carry
out plans later on.
At that point in her power maturation, she would only be feebly
controlling Cordy, if exerting any influence at all. Just as a
newly pregnant mother might sense the baby, you really can't "feel"
anything. So, Cordy would be still acting fairly Cordylike.
But as the "fetus" grows, it gains more power, as Jasmine
probably did, within Cordy. (Ever have a baby kick inside you?
Sometimes it feels like they are wearing rollerblades! There is
definitely an influence there that wasn't before.)
I don't believe it was Connors donation that created Jasmine (as
in the usual human conception ways) ::koff::, Jasmine was already
there and able to control Cordy to pull in Connor closer. Perhaps
Jasmine took some of Connors power each time it happened, too.
(Hey! some sports stars stay celibate before the game to save
their extra mojo to win!). Plus, binding Connor to Cordy was Jasmine's
best bet at having a built-in protector while Cordy was pregnant,
and a loyal follower after the birth.
Connor has mentioned his disgust with magic several times. I noticed
Jasmine encouraging the feeling. Didn't Holtz also teach Connor
not to trust magic? And if Jasmine orchestrated Connors extraordinary
birth, then how muchof his childhood did she influence? And why
keep him separated in another dimension? Why would Jasmine want
Connor to stay away and distrust magic so violently? Is it a vulnerability
of Jasmines if used by Connor?
Now I'm asking different whys than the original point, sorry.
They just keep branching out from one another, the connections
and bridges.
Subject
Revisited: Who Returned Angel From Hell? (BtVS S7 & AtS S4 storylines-no
future spoilers) -- Jay, 21:00:37 04/25/03 Fri
Since old, unresolved plot lines seem to popping up on both series,
there's one big one still hanging out there for me that hasn't
been mentioned on either show. Who brought Angel back from hell
in the beginning of season 3 on BtVS? The only one to claim responsibility
for it, the First Evil, is swinging in full force again on BtVS.
But I wonder if whatever Jasmine is, has the juice for that also?
Or maybe there is still some unnamed other power out there that
has yet to reveal itself.
I think the Powers That Be were inferred to have something to
do with it, but I don't believe it has ever been said outright,
or any evidence presented to support this. I just checked Masq's
analysis for
this, and she refers to Buffy's claddagh ring. To me, the most
shocking thing at this point would be that the ring somehow brought
him back. It's not like anyone called it "Precious"
or anything.
[> I bet Jasmine claims
THAT one, too! -- WickedBuffy };>, 21:06:38 04/25/03
Fri
[> Re: Subject Revisited:
Who Returned Angel? -- CW, 21:24:28 04/25/03 Fri
As I've said before, I think it wasn't so much the ring that brought
Angel back as Buffy's decision to put Angel behind her that triggered
the event. Leaving the ring behind at the mansion, was symbolic
of that decision, and whatever or whoever brought Angel back waited
till she was gone before returning him.
From that point on, though they were seemingly back together,
both of them understood (most of the time) that not just intimacy,
but any sort of closeness in their love was not just complicated,
but doomed.
[> [> A balancing act
-- Ray, 02:54:47 04/26/03 Sat
I think it was probably the forces of Good and Evil. We've seen
several times that they balance each other out. Angel does that
perfectly. He can be a champion for Good or Evill. Remember Wolfram
and Hart's Prophecy about him and the apocalypse?
[> On another topic-
-- Jay, 22:05:46 04/25/03 Fri
I'm not aware if anyone has been pointing this out, but Buffy
is kicking ass in TVGuide.com's May sweeps poll today. Take that,
American Idol, if that's your real name...
[> And a speculation (BtVS
S7 & AtS S4 storylines-no future spoilers) -- Darby, 06:30:46
04/26/03 Sat
It might be neat if the hell Angel is in now was that hell Buffy
sent him to, and he's returning to somewhere that he has established
some sort of reputation. The skitterer did not seem to understand
vampires, so Angel might have really perplexed his cousins back
in the day...
[> Balance (Speculation/Past
Spoilers -- heywhynot, 08:51:17 04/26/03 Sat
The First did claim responsibility for Angel's return, though
the door was left open that another presence might of been involved.
It has been suggested that a souled vampire would be key to the
outcome of the final battle between two sides. Each side assumed
that there would be only one souled vampire, Angel therefore was
important to return to the world. The First and the anti-First
each taking the chance that Angel would side with them and not
the other. Jasmine may very well be the anti-First.
Something the Slayer did upset the balance between the First & the
anti-First, allowing at least the First to more directly act upon
the world.
Of course the whole souled Spike deal left the door open that
each side could have a souled vampire. The First controlled Spike
and Angel was enthralled by Jasmine. Spike and Angel though are
now free. Which has me perdiciting that neither the First nor
the anti-first will win but rather humanity will go out on its
own.
[> [> Re: Balance (Speculation/Past
Spoilers) -- Vickie, 12:03:04 04/26/03 Sat
Which makes it all sound more and more like Babylon 5.
Which kinda makes me think NOT!
[> [> [> Did Really
Watch Babylon 5 -- heywhynot, 15:26:34 04/26/03 Sat
Care to enlighten me about what happened on Babylon 5? Watched
it a couple times its first couple of seasons . Seemed like a
show trying to find its footing without direction and retroactively
making previous shows seem more important.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Did [not] Really Watch Babylon 5 (major spoilers, stay away if
you want to watch B5) -- Vickie, 15:46:34 04/26/03 Sat
Clearly, you missed getting into the flow of the show, which is
really too bad. I enjoyed it tremendously, and wouldn't say that
it made previous shows more important retroactively.
I will agree that apparently insignificant things appeared more
important in retrospect. But that's different.
Anyway, in one of the major plot arcs, the Shadows are a great
evil species (one of the Old Ones) that threatens humanity and
most of the apparently good or neutral ETs. There's a war. Our
allies in the war are another species of Old Ones, the Vorlons.
(BTW, Old Ones just means species that evolved very early, compared
to us.)
Late in the story, it becomes apparent that the Vorlons are not
on our side, but ancient enemies of the Shadows who are using
humanity and its allies as cannon fodder. This conflict has been
going on for thousands of years.
The only way for humanity and its allies to "win" is
to refuse to fight, to refuse to ally with either side. Eventually,
they managed to force the two species to "depart for the
Rim", where the other Old Ones had gone long before.
The younger races then were "on their own". Or, as JMS
(creator of the show) once said, "It's about killing your
parents."
Theory
about Sahjhan, Holtz, Jasmine & Connor Angel: S3 - S4.20 spoilers
-- Rohar, 22:36:47 04/25/03 Fri
This may have been addressed before, but I have a theory about
how yet again Jasmine manipulated the destiny of Angel & Connor
to bring about her release ? Remember that old prophecy about
Connor killing Sahjhan that hasn't been addressed ? I bet it hasn't
been addressed because Jasmine herself formulated it as another
false prophecy in place to get Sahjhan to fear for his life, therefore
bringing Holtz back to get revenge on Angel and tear Connor from
Angel, allowing Connor to age so he could impregnate Cordy, and
also start the spiral of emotional separation and mistrust that
was necessary for Connor to be manipulated by Jasmine- in-Cordy
and later Jasmine ? Opinions anyone ?
Rohar
OT:
I am engaged -- Drizzt, 01:14:06 04/26/03 Sat
This is weird I guess, but my life has been consistantly weird
since the end of last year.
I met 'Penny' three weeks ago: an hour after we met she said she
is in love with me, took me four days to fall in love with her...
Penny is beutifull, cheerfull, honest, good hearted, and the smartest
person I have ever met...
Our personalities are very compatible and complimentary.
I notified her that monogamy is unacceptible becuase I am in love
with Buffy...she does not mind, in fact she is like me in NOT
understanding jealousy: we both think it is a wast of time to
be jealous. Even weirder is that she approves of and understands
the nature of my goal to get to Sunnydayle to meet Buffy.
Our finances are currently zip; no money, but she speeks 20 languages,
is a computer programer, expert chef, & multiple other skills...so
in a few months finances will be fine. We are both amused though
that we went from the Marriotte hotel (at $325 plus room service
dayly) for a week to my tent wich costs $25/week to rent the space
it is located in)
Multiple other complications in my life wich are directly related
to my being with my fiance, but it is all acceptible to me because
she is worth it IMO. BTW I gave up my job to take care of her
untill she recovers from a rather unpleasant abusive situation
she was in when I met her...I am unemployed, in a tent...and happy:)
[> Congrats! -- Wizard,
01:17:35 04/26/03 Sat
[> Good Wishes, Drizzt..
-- Cactus Watcher, 06:19:14 04/26/03 Sat
[> Re: OT: I am engaged
-- LadyStarlight, 07:03:59 04/26/03 Sat
Many congratulations, Drizzt & Penny!! You both have my best wishes
for a happy life together!
[> Wishing you and yours
all the best! -- d'Herblay, 14:38:56 04/26/03 Sat
[> All the best to you,
Drizzt! -- OnM, 16:02:25 04/26/03 Sat
[> Love can bloom anywhere.*S*
Congratulations Drizzt! -- Briar, 16:51:40 04/26/03 Sat
Yo
Canada! A treat in the morning paper -- ponygirl, 06:44:02
04/26/03 Sat
The Globe and Mail (Canada's national paper, except for y'know
that other national paper) has a HUGE article on Buffy by Nikki
Strafford, the author of Bite Me!, on the entire front page of
their review section! It doesn't seem to be up on their site yet,
but I'm sure it will be soon. In the meantime I'm going to enjoy
full page Buffy goodness with my breakfast!
[> Re: Yo Canada! A treat
in the morning paper -- meme, 11:57:01 04/26/03 Sat
I cut it out and put it on my bullit board. It's amazing what
makes me excited.
[> Re: Yo Canada! A treat
in the morning paper -- MaeveRigan, 15:02:07 04/26/03 Sat
Until the real Buffy article appears, a search for "Buffy"
on the Globe & Mail site turned up this fascinating glimpse into
the use of "bitca" among today's empowered women. Apparently
"Buffy" is becoming a powerful name beyond the TV screen!
"Reclaiming the B-word"
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/ 20030426/STWORD//?query=Buffy
[> [> Thanks for the
link -- Scroll, 18:58:18 04/26/03 Sat
Very interesting how words evolve over time. I find English especially,
versus Chinese or French, to be very malleable - - it's reinvented/reinterpreted
all the time. We adopt words from other languages, make up slang,
turn nouns into adjectives, and use acronyms like nobody's business.
In other news, I went to Subway to pick up dinner and found a
copy of the Globe and Mail just lying there on a table, abandoned.
Well, I doubt the servers were going to read about Buffy
so they probably won't miss the paper! :)
Speculation
From Showtime towards the Future -- heywhynot, 10:40:00
04/26/03 Sat
I may of missed this debate on here because I was going through
my qualifying exams for grad school last fall, what are people's
thoughts what the Slayer did to open the door for the First to
act?
The lines from Showtime:
Beljoxa's Eye: The mystical forces surrounding the chosen line
have become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable.
Anya: Something The First did?
Beljoxa's Eye: The First Evil did not cause the disruption, only
seized upon it to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever.
Giles: Then what has caused the disruption? Whatówhat is
responsible for letting this happen?
Beljoxa's Eye: The slayer.
I am still trying to figure it out. The slayer is what is responsible.
Does that mean Buffy or Faith? It can't be Buffy being brought
back can it? How would the Slayer then be responsiible? Could
it have been something Buffy did this season? So many questions,
gotta love it.
[> Some theories --
Finn Mac Cool, 13:49:45 04/26/03 Sat
First off, I missed "Showtime" when it aired due to
a basketball game my local station decided to air. So, all my
knowledge comes from the wildfeed, hence I may have missed somethings
that others noticed.
Theories:
1) It was Buffy's resurrection. A point was made over and over
that bringing her back from the dead went against the natural
order of the world. While she didn't choose to be resurrected,
that doesn't mean she isn't the cause of the disruption.
2) It was Buffy's first revival from the dead. That the presence
of two Slayers in the world upset things.
3) It was the spell used in "Primeval", which called
upon the essence of the Slayer, thus prevoking "Restless".
It's possible it had more longterm consequences.
This next theory contains spoilers through "Dirty Girls",
so scroll down past it if you wish to remain unspoiled for that
ep:
*
*
*
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
*
*
*
4) By "the Slayer", Beljoxa's Eye meant the actual,
metaphysical essence of the Slayer, the original demonic power
that the shamans filled the First Slayer with, the one we saw
in "Get It Done". Perhaps this power somehow got used
by Caleb to become the uber-powerful guy he is. This would naturally
be a big disruption.
*
*
*
E
N
D
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
*
*
*
Those are just my theories, and there are probably others out
there. Let's hope we find out by the time 7.22 airs.
In Joss We Trust
[> Re: Speculation From
Showtime towards the Future -- michaelc,
13:57:24 04/26/03 Sat
i don't think it was faith that beljoxa's eye was referring to.
it was that buffy's (second) resurrection weakened the bonds in
the slayer line or something?
didn't giles say something like that, and also that it was actually
BUFFY'S fault, but anya, willow, xander and tara's for bringing
buffy back.
A couple
of questions and thoughts...no spoilers :) -- Purple Tulip,
13:39:35 04/26/03 Sat
These are just some things that have crossed my mind in the past
couple of days, and I thought I'd pass them on to you all to see
if anyone can shed some more light on them.
First of all, I was just wondering if we were ever told what Liam
and William's last names are. I don't remember if there were ever
episodes that revealed them, and I was just curious if anyone
knew.
Second, I was watching "I Only Have Eyes for You" last
night (one of my faves of all time), and Angel, Spike, and Dru
had just moved into the mansion. Angel was showing them the garden
and Dru was particularly taken with some night- blooming JASMINE
that was growing around the courtyard. When I heard this, it caught
my attention. Could this be an extremely early refernce to season
four of Angel? I know that Joss does plans things far in advance,
but could he have planned this? Or is it just a really interesting
coincidence?
[> Re: A couple of questions
and thoughts...no spoilers :) -- Nino,
14:58:09 04/26/03 Sat
Thats weird, but i just watched that ep on DVD last night as well....and
i too noticed the Jasmine reference. While, I don't think it has
any connection to what is going on now, i would not be surprised.
When Dru talked of it, it sounded very important...
Joyce
was the First Evil (Spoilers through "Bring on the Night")
-- Finn Mac Cool, 14:19:32 04/26/03 Sat
I got these thoughts after watching the re-run of "Bring
on the Night", but "Sacrafice" aired before I could
post anything, so I decided to post-pone posting them.
Now, I am not talking about the glowy apparition of Joyce that
appeared in "Coversations with Dead People" (though
I'm still uncertain about that one). I'm referring to the Joyce
that appeared in Buffy's dream during "Bring on the Night".
I believe, upon re-watching, that what Buffy was seeing was really
the First Evil trying to play with Buffy's mind. My reasons are
as follow:
1) We know the First has some link to people's dreams. In "Amends",
Angel was tormented by graphic dreams of his past before he ever
saw any apparitions. He even mentioned how vivid they were to
Giles. It seems likely that the First generated these dreams,
or at least was able to read them in order to take on the forms
of the people Angel dreamed of killing. As such, the First would
only be exercising a natural outreach of its power by haunting
Buffy's dreams.
2) Joyce's words conflict with a very reliable prophecy. Joyce
said that Evil will always exist and be everywhere, that it is
unconquerable, and that there's nothing Buffy can do about it.
But, in "Help" Cassie Newton saw into the future and
said to Buffy, "You'll make a difference". We were shown
multiple times that Cassie's visions were accurate predictions
of the future, so there is good reason to trust her word here.
Thus we're left with Joyce's bleak words of warning about the
hopelessness of actually changing the world in any way versus
Cassie's prediction that Buffy would make a difference. Given
that Joyce was of unknown origin and motivation, and Cassie was
shown as a reliable prophet, it seems wiser to trust Cassie. This
means that Joyce was either unaware of Cassie's prophecy (which
seems doubtful given her level of knowledge in the dream) or was
purposely ignoring it (which is a big ol' check in the "Joyce
is the First Evil" column"). Please note: I'm not saying
that "make a difference" necessarily means Buffy will
banish all evil, but it does lend to the belief that she'll shift
the balance of good and evil at least a little.
3) Joyce's words were despair causing. Now, I'm not saying that
she was lying to Buffy. Everything she said, about evil being
natural and eternal, is true of the Buffyverse (though it's more
of an "Angel" philosophy than a "Buffy" philosophy).
However, she was very one sided in it. She mentioned that evil
was in all of us, but nothing about good being in all of us. She
said that evil couldn't be destroyed, but nothing about what could
be done against it. As has been said on "Buffy" this
season, just because something tells the truth doesn't mean it
isn't evil. Or, as was said on "Angel" this season about
Angelus, "He lies with the truth". Joyce's words were
true, which makes them believable, but lean heavily towards making
Buffy despair and give in, which is classic evil manipulator strategy.
So, we know it is probable that the First Evil can manipulate
dreams. We know that the words said by Dream!Joyce, in some places,
ran counter to Cassie's vision of Buffy "making a difference".
We know that Joyce did not tell the whole truth and that her words
were despairing and devoid of hope. All in all, this seems to
rule out it actually being the benevolent ghost of Joyce or some
other power for good in Buffy's dreams. The only possibilities
I see being feasible is that it was the First Evil playing its
mind games, or that Buffy was simply having some bad dreams. And,
honestly, how often are we shown Buffy dreaming when there isn't
something supernatural involved in it?
[> Re: Joyce was the First
Evil (Spoilers through "Bring on the Night") --
M., 15:21:23 04/26/03 Sat
I donít necessarily disagree, but I would like to suggest
some contrary arguments, just to muddy up the waters again.
The First does have the ability and the inclination to create
or invade peoples dreams, but this is Buffy we are talking about.
The slayer has always had vivid and prophetic dreams, how can
we be sure thatís not what this was.
Second, the words of dream Joyce might seem to conflict with what
Cassie said, but they also match fairly well with what the Beljoxaís
Eye said.
Joyce: evil isnít coming. Itís already here.
Evil is always here.
Itís natural. And no one can stop that.
Beljoxaís Eye: It cannot be fought. It cannot be killed.
The First Evil has been and always will be.
I tend to believe that the words of the Beljoxaís Eye can
be taken as true, if misleading.
You describe Joyce as being very one sided, but what if there
was more she intended to say. Dream messages from dead relatives
are rarely complete or clear, and Joyce was interrupted twice.
Lastly one thing that seemed to strike me as significant is that
Joyce says ìYou canít win against this thing.
Not if you donít rest.î This seems to be the
same thing that Giles and the gang were trying to tell Buffy earlier.
I wonder if this reference is not so much about gaining strength
from rest, but about gaining knowledge from dreams.
[> Re: Joyce was the First
Evil (Spoilers through "Bring on the Night") --
heywhynot, 15:22:20 04/26/03 Sat
Or she was showing getting Buffy off the track of thinking of
destroying the First but rather thinking about overcoming evil.
Buffy all season has been looking for away to destroy the First
like she has every Big Bad to date. The thing is you can't destroy
evil. It is not possible on so many levels. Buffy needs to get
this, the entire gang does. I am not saying Joyce's appearance
in Buffy's dreams was not the First but I am saying it could go
anyway.
Heck the Joyce seen this season might be Normal Again Joyce trying
to bring her daugher back. Still trying to figure out if Normal
Again might tie into it all besides having Buffy demonstrating
no matter how bad things got in Buffyverse she was willing to
stick with being the Slayer.
[> Don't agree. -- HonorH,
15:35:52 04/26/03 Sat
The fact is, if you take Joyce's words apart, she's not telling
Buffy, "You might as well give up." What she's saying
is that you can't banish all evil. It's a part of humanity. What
she's saying is that you can't go to war against the First Evil
and win--which may very well be the greatest truth Buffy can hear.
Buffy's despair right now comes from trying to fight the First
*the wrong way*, IMHO. Joyce's words, remembered, might actually
take Buffy out of that if she can figure out their meaning. Buffy
can't "defeat" the First Evil in the way she's thinking.
She can't destroy it, the way she's destroyed every other foe
she's fought. Trying to do so will only cause her greater pain
and despair. She needs to find another way.
Too, Joyce's manner was different than we've seen the First take
in other guises. "Eve" was total despair--"This
thing's going to kill us all, and there's nothing we can do about
it." "Cassie" outright tried to get Willow to kill
herself. With Spike, the FE was also telling him there was no
hope, that he might as well turn evil now, because Buffy couldn't
save him. Joyce was different. She kept telling Buffy to rest,
to give herself time to heal. That's not something the First would
say, given the manifestations we've seen.
What I think is that if it wasn't Joyce, it was Buffy's subconscious
trying to tell her something important-- something she'll need
to know before the end.
[> [> Joyces words on
evil are good for any child to hear. -- WildBuffy, 16:08:42
04/26/03 Sat
Joyce seemed to me to be Buffys mother, imparting mother wisdom
about the world - Joyce really didn't seem to get much chance
when she was alive to give really deep getting ready for the world
advice. Buffy was busy fighting demons and all, so the most common
of conversations and teaching a parent should give a child to
get ready for the world, seemed to get pushed aside.
When you said "She can't destroy it, the way she's destroyed
every other foe she's fought. Trying to do so will only cause
her greater pain and despair. She needs to find another way."
It makes sense. But Buffy is trying the same ways - brute force,
some magic.... but no research or focus or brainstorming with
everyone else about how do see outside the box and do it different.
(I bet Andrew could help there - he isn't as stuck in a pattern
as the rest are.)
[> [> [> Precisely!
(spoilers up to "Dirty Girls") -- HonorH, 16:21:24
04/26/03 Sat
When you said "She can't destroy it, the way she's destroyed
every other foe she's fought. Trying to do so will only cause
her greater pain and despair. She needs to find another way."
It makes sense. But Buffy is trying the same ways - brute force,
some magic.... but no research or focus or brainstorming with
everyone else about how do see outside the box and do it different.
(I bet Andrew could help there - he isn't as stuck in a pattern
as the rest are.)
This is exactly the problem. This foe is unlike any other. Buffy's
been trying everything she knows, all the old tried- and-true
methods, but they aren't going to work this time. I believe
that's what Joyce was trying to get across to her--that she needs
to think not in terms of defeating the First, but instead about
the nature of evil itself. Therein lies the key to saving the
world.
We were given a hint in "Dirty Girls" that Buffy's beginning
to suspect that what she's doing isn't going to work. When she
talked to Wood, she wondered aloud if this "war" was
really the right way to go about things. Now, with a terrible
defeat haunting her, Buffy will have to start again. Maybe this
time, she'll understand what needs to be done.
Me? I don't have a clue. But then, that's why I'm not writing
for the show.
[> [> [> [> You
have the clules and you write for a show.... -- WickedBuffy,
20:54:47 04/26/03 Sat
"Me? I don't have a clue. But then, that's why I'm not writing
for the show."
... and yet this entire forum continually produces alternate worlds
from the speculations and deductions of every poster - some small
and some going off into faraway tangents.
May not be writing the Joss Show, but certainly writing hundreds
of alternate dimension shows! :>
And I admit, some of the posting plots and storylines aremore
entertaining than the actual show.
[> [> But keep in mind
(spoilers through "Storyteller") -- Finn Mac Cool,
16:26:21 04/26/03 Sat
That Joyce didn't give Buffy any alternatives as to what she COULD
do. It wasn't her saying, "You can't destroy/defeat all evil,
all you can do is stand in its way and force it back some, stop
it from growing more powerful". Joyce didn't say that. What
she said amounted to "You can't destroy/defeat all evil".
While this is a true statement and one that needs to be learned,
it is only a part of the whole truth. It's like if a motivational
speaker is introducing some recovering alcoholics into AA and
spends the entire time talking about how the alcoholism will never
go away, how it will constantly prey on them, and how powerful
the temptation will be. While this is true and something they
need to hear and accept, it is only part of the whole story; it
doesn't say there is no hope, but doesn't say there is, either.
If you tell somebody they can't truly win, but don't give them
another reason to keep fighting, do you really think they'll go
on?
Take Holland Manners for instance, or rather his ghost/image on
Angel's elevator ride into "Hell". Like Joyce he talked
about how evil is a fundamental part of the world, can never be
truly banished, and is in everyone. Like Joyce his words were
true, but only part of the whole truth (Angel had to fill in the
rest with his epiphany). In fact, the two bear great similarities,
and being compared to an emissary of ultimate evil doesn't lend
credence to the belief that Joyce wasn't the First. What did Angel
do after hearing Holland Manners's speech? He tried to lose his
soul by sleeping with Darla. Thus, I can't help but see Dream!Joyce's
words as similarly despairing.
P.S. The First Evil is the metaphor for the evil in all of us,
thus some people reason that it can't be beat, since you can't
truly destroy all evil. But that's exactly what Buffy does. If
a demon comes up that's a metaphor for lust, it is eventually
slain. If a demon that's a metaphor for greed comes up, it is
eventually slain. They even let Buffy kill Der Kindestod, who
was a metaphor for death, even though death is even more of a
certainty than evil. Thus, I don't think you can rule out the
possibility of Buffy destroying the First Evil, as all previous
metaphors have been subject to slayage. Of course, evil would
still survive, but I'm of the camp that just because you destroy
the origin of all evil doesn't mean all evil goes with it.
P.P.S. I don't think Buffy actually believes she can destroy/defeat
the First. While she's taken that stand time and again in her
speeches, we've been given hints that she doesn't actually believe
them. This is perhaps best emphasized in "Storyteller"
when she says, "I'm sick of giving speeches about how we're
all going to survive this, because we're not". Buffy may
tell the potentials that they're going to destroy evil, but only
because she thinks that's what they want/need to hear. She doesn't
seem to actually believe that in her heart.
[> [> [> So, yer saying
that the First Evil is a metaphor for taxes? -- WickedBuffy
::ducking::, 20:45:29 04/26/03 Sat
seriously, though... ""I'm sick of giving speeches about
how we're all going to survive this, because we're not".
Buffy may tell the potentials that they're going to destroy evil,
but only because she thinks that's what they want/need to hear.
She doesn't seem to actually believe that in her heart"
She doesn't believe it because she hasn't figured out a way to
do it. She's got tunnelvision - they need a visionary - she needs
to be able to step OUT of the picture, objectively, and learn
an entirely new lesson about dealing with evil. And she's not.
Just because she doesn't believe in her heart, doesn't make it
true. But her attitude is poisoning the hopes of others and even
silencing those who might have "wild" new ideas.
She's defeating herself.
[> [> [> [> Vague
SPOILERS THRU STORYTELLER ABOVE -- WickedForgetful, 20:46:54
04/26/03 Sat
[> [> [> Well, she
kept getting interrupted. -- HonorH, 23:43:20 04/26/03
Sat
Really, Joyce was onscreen for less than a minute of the ep. In
those seconds, she told Buffy some things that went directly opposite
what Buffy was doing. The thing that really makes me think you're
wrong? Joyce said, "You can't beat this thing--if you don't
rest." In other words, if you rest, you've got a chance,
but if you don't rest, you won't. That was giving Buffy advice.
It was telling her that what she was doing wouldn't work, and
she needed to take some time for herself. Which Buffy does. She
needs to take a look inside, pay attention to her own heart, rather
than steel herself for another battle.
Besides, Joyce-as-First is just too darn obvious. And aside from
that, while the First inflicted terrible dreams and memories upon
Angel, while Angel was dreaming, the First didn't appear to him.
It appeared while he was awake and didn't touch him (hey, it couldn't).
In Buffy's dream, Joyce did touch her. There are just too many
contradictions for me to believe this was the First.
[> [> [> [> Gotta
say, forgot about the "unless you rest" thing --
Finn Mac Cool, 08:12:05 04/27/03 Sun
I still think it's debatable, though, since that might have been
false advice, but I do admit that it does shatter a lot of my
argument. Upon getting this info, I'd still give 50/50 odds that
the Joyce in Buffy's dream was the First Evil.
However, I have to disagree with some of your reasoning:
"Besides, Joyce-as-First is just too darn obvious. And aside
from that, while the First inflicted terrible dreams and memories
upon Angel, while Angel was dreaming, the First didn't appear
to him. It appeared while he was awake and didn't touch him (hey,
it couldn't). In Buffy's dream, Joyce did touch her. There are
just too many contradictions for me to believe this was the First."
First off, when the season began, I was among the people claiming
that the shapeshifter we saw couldn't have been the First Evil
because it was just too obvious. And then, presto, it does turn
out to be the First. Personally, ruling something out because
it's "too obvious" doesn't work well at all.
Second, how can you be sure the First wasn't in Angel's dreams?
After all, the people in his dreams were all dead, it could have
been any of them, including his victims. And I fail to see how
whether it touched Angel in his dreams has any signficance at
all. Even if you don't believe the First was actually in Angel's
dreams, can you really just rule it out, off the bat, that it's
impossible for it do so? We already know it has a certain amount
of control over dreams, why shouldn't it be able to appear in
them?
[> [> [> [> [>
I'm thinking Buffy believed it was the First, but now I can't
find my evidence -- Helen, 06:55:26 04/28/03 Mon
Have looked through the shooting scripts, and nothing to back
me up, but I am convinced that when Joyce apparition appeared
to Buffy on one occasion Buffy almost tearfully said, "please
don't do this." I have distinct memories of seeing this on
my TV screen and can now find no evidence to support it. It seemed
to me as if she knew it was the First pretending to be Mum and
she was almost pleading with it not to take that particular form.
One below the belt as it were.
Did I imagine this?
Also, back in ,Amends ME seems to have missed out on great
potential Angel torture - they didn't seem to have twigged at
that point that the First could have appeared as Buffy (she had
died once at that point, albeit for a very very short time).
[> [> [> [> To
Sleep, Perchance to Dream, Perchance to GET A CLUE (spoiler/DirtyGirls
I guess) -- WickedBuffy, 09:07:10 04/27/03 Sun
The emphasis on resting seems pretty important, since Joyce said
so little - each word is probably very important.
To me, it means one of two things.
1) It is in response to the usual way Buffy always did things
- physical fighting. If she's not actually physically fighting,
she's thinking about it, planning it. I haven't even seen her
do anything else - read the paper, joke with Dawn, hug Spike -
no little stress-breaker tiny everyday activities. Her job kind
of helped, but then the school turned into a battle zone and she
was again surrounded with physical battle. One instance at school
stands out to me, jsut a brief scene. It was when all heck was
breaking loose and old activities from Sunnydales past were rehappening
- one of which was the disappearing girl. There was fighting everywhere,
bashing and punching - and the girl was weeping about not being
seen, gradually disappearing just as umm
had during Buffys HS days. Buffy *did* run to her at first, and
started to console her, to tell her she WAS seen and important
- but just as the girl seemed to be comeing back, Buffy was sidetracked
by some other physical roughhousing and left her. The girl began
weeping again (Buffy had just reinforced her lack of importance
and abandoned her) and the girl disappeared. Buffy chose physical
over emotional battles. She still is. If she could just stop.
And actually rest, free her mind of planning killing and fghting
with her fists and feet, the true answers would be able to come
to her. Her intuition and inner wisdom would have a chance to
surface.
2) If she rested, she could dream. Sure, she could have nightmares
from the First, but as mentioned many times before, Buffy has
a talent for prophetic dreams. Plud, resting and dreaming would
let her subconscious sort things out in ways Buffy can't access
awake (just like all of us). Not catnaps, but, some actual more
than once rests and sleep. Who knows what creatures exist that
could help her, but can only come thru dreams?
[> [> [> [> [>
Oh, great, now I've got a Sandman plot bunny chasing me. Thanks
so much. -- HonorH (the utterly insane ficcer), 13:27:56
04/27/03 Sun
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Mah Pleashuh. Btw, did you see that hare on your pillow?
-- WickedBuffy, 18:54:00 04/27/03 Sun
[> [> [> [> [>
1 "don't think so," 1" hmmm" (spoilers
for "1st date" & "get it done" [i think])
-- anom, 20:12:23 04/27/03 Sun
"...but just as the girl seemed to be comeing back, Buffy
was sidetracked by some other physical roughhousing and left her.
The girl began weeping again (Buffy had just reinforced her lack
of importance and abandoned her) and the girl disappeared."
Don't think so: I don't have time to rewind to the right ep/scene
& check it again, but I'm pretty sure "Sad Girl" (as
Buffy called her) didn't disappear but ran offscreen, probably
in response to the same physical threat Buffy was responding to.
Needing to deal w/something else isn't the same as not seeing
her at all, & it seemed to me that the very fact that Buffy saw
her (& her feelings) made a significant impact on her--& that
it would take more than having Buffy distracted by something else
to reverse it.
"If she rested, she could dream. Sure, she could have nightmares
from the First, but as mentioned many times before, Buffy has
a talent for prophetic dreams."
Hmmm: Maybe that's the real reason (or 1 of them) she doesn't
want to sleep--to avoid the nightmares. Now I'm wondering if she
might've heard the First talking to Chloe, or at least Chloe talking
back, if she hadn't been asleep that night having the "crying-Chloe/'it's
not enough!'" dream but had stayed up walking around to check
on everyone?
[> [> Completely agree.
Well said. -- SK, 22:29:02 04/26/03 Sat
Tara:
the symbolism of an overlooked character -- Nino,
14:55:57 04/26/03 Sat
As I hear people complain on different web sites about how boring
Tara was, and how her character has little significance, I felt
compelled to defend her...
In Buddhism, Tara (the mother of all buddhas) represents the embodiment
of wisdom, and the totality of Buddhist enlightenment. Seeing
as how Joss is known for paying attention to minute details, I
do not think her naming was an accident.
One complaint that I hear all the time (i've even heard amber
benson complain about this) is that Tara seems to state the obvious.
Well ill be damned if the Scoobs don't need someone to point out
what is right in front of their faces!
In "The Body" when the Scoobs are grieving and Xander
punches the wall, they all stare at his blood-soaked hand and
are thinking the same thing: Xander is mortal. He will die just
like Joyce did. They all will. Only Tara has the courage to put
these thoughts into words, "It hurts." Simple and direct,
but she is not just talking about the pain of Xander's hand, she
is speaking of the pain caused by our mortality: getting through
one disaster, only to be shocked by another. Life hurts.
And we as humans, are powerless to prevent this pain.
Entropy is the theory that over time, things deteriorate. It is
a common law of physics. In the aptly titled, "Entropy"
we find our Scoobs have all hit an all time low. They don't seem
to understand that it is natural for things to go wrong. Again,
it is Tara who "states the obvious" (an obvious that
our Scoobs cannot see), that "Things fall apart..."
She is the only person in season 6 who has her act togehter. She
is the shining light of hope, when all our other characters have
fallen. Buffy falls at her feet and pleads to be punished in "Dead
Things." Willow falls into a deadly spiral of addiction without
her. When Tara is shot, its as if all hope is lost. There is no
light left in Sunnydale...the voice of reason and wisdom, is gone.
And just when we think our Scoobs have hit rock bottom, we find
they have one lower place left to go....
Tara is one of my favorite characters in the Buffy-verse. I hope
that people will not ignore her contributions in the 2 years she
spent with the Scoobs.
[> I believe Tara's influence
continues even now thru every episode! -- WickedBuffy ::nodding
vigorously::, 14:59:14 04/26/03 Sat
[> Re: Tara: the symbolism
of an overlooked character -- Alison, 19:29:45 04/26/03
Sat
Agreed- Tara was an important character and deserves to be recognized
as such. I always thought of her as Buffy's spirit, or her spirit
guide, and perhaps her influence is part of what Buffy is lacking
this year.
[> I did a post called "The
Symbolic Use of Tara" in april 02 link inside -- Rufus,
20:42:28 04/26/03 Sat
From the April/02 archives of atpobtvs&ats......
The
Symbolic use of Tara
[> [> Re: I did a post
called "The Symbolic Use of Tara" in april 02 link inside
-- Nino, 21:40:25
04/26/03 Sat
Hey thanks for the link....it was great to see someone had the
same thought as me! (Yours was much more in depth, i enjoyed reading
it...) Yay Tara...i really wish she could have come back this
season (even as the First). Thanks again.
[> [> [> Re: I did
a post called "The Symbolic Use of Tara" in april 02
link inside -- Rufus, 03:45:12 04/27/03 Sun
Tara could have come back this season but the actress, Amber Benson
didn't want to reprise the role because she didn't want to contribute
to any more discomfort to her fans. I think that is too bad as
it would have been obvious to anyone watching "Conversations
with Dead People" that the Tara, Willow would see (Cassie
took that place) was the First.
It was nice to see that Amber was at the series end Wrap party
for Buffy.
[> [> [> [> did
you notice, Tara in season 7 -- deacon, 20:24:55 04/27/03
Sun
In "the killer in me" when Willow was kissing Kenedy
and the camera panned around it showed Tara kissing Willow, so
she was briefly in season 7 unless they edited from stock fotage.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: did you notice, Tara in season 7 -- Rufus, 01:46:58
04/28/03 Mon
No, I didn't, or don't remember...I'll have to go have a looksee
again.
What
We Know About Jasmines Previous Zipcode (spoilers/Sacrifice)
-- WickedBuffy, 14:56:23 04/26/03 Sat
I was wondering what information we'd all gleaned from Sacrifice
about the previous place Jasmine appears to have been.
We saw what they looked like - very insectlike, but speaking English,
intelligent and quite communicative. Abit fidgety.
Not stupid - it didn't fall for Wes' questioning trying to find
out the name or even more info. Probably not too up on vampires,
as it couldn't understand why the guy it was slicing up wouldn't
die. Obviously has a grasp of life and death, though, because
he wanted him to die.
But was also very protective of that information, for some reason.
Very quick, focused on it's project and strong.
It seems to need blood for whatever it's creating. Blood is important.
(Though I didn't see what it was doing with it... looked like
really bad gory modern art to me.)
Had disdain for words - kept saying Wes talked too much. (Maybe
they are telepathic where he comes from. Or, if Jasmine already
hived their world, then words are probably not even used anymore
- everyone is in everyone elses mind.
Came from someplace Jasmine had been. And wanted her back. Believed
that the humans had stolen her. She seems to be very important
or precious to them.
Is working on a way to get her back where she belongs, but seems
to be concealing it from Jasmine herself. It didn't appear to
have contacted her yet.
I accidentally de-tivoed this weeks angel :< so I can't go
back and check for more. I know there was something else with
blood? magic?
What more did people get from the scenes with the Creature?
[> added note speculations
on J's origin (spoilers Sacrifice) -- WickedBuffy, 15:33:24
04/26/03 Sat
As I was writing that, I flashed on an old Outer Limits show.
(er, I kept my clothes on when I flashed btw). Hey! Star Trek
did it , too!
Basically, the cast is caught in an enclosed area where they are
treated to all kinds of odd things. People would mysteriously
disappear (well, at least the redhirted ones), walls would move
- they'd pass out and wake up someplace else, dressed some other
way. Sometimes they had food, Other times they didn't. It was
as if a God was playing with them and they had no control over
their lives anymore.
okok to the point ... it ended up that it wasn't a God, it was
some younger being playing with it's new toys. Older, mature voices
came in at the end, usually during a lifethreatening scene) and
reprimand the youngster from toyiing with the animals, or to put
those things away, etc.
Still with me? Since this very old creature has appeared, I've
been wondering if Jasmine isn't actually something that does belong
to them. Maybe not a young one of them - but some kind of pet
or personal goddess or treasured and revered possession of theirs.
Or maybe she's a vital part of their culture emotinally, but organic.
And it escaped, though the creatures think the humans stole her.
Escaping was just part of it, being named was the clincher that
kept the creatures from just immediately taking her back.
She had such excitement and genuine happiness when she got there.
And she got very clear "what" she wanted - she's so
excited about everything and everyone - and instantly hurt then
cuts off anyone not enamoured with her. Like a kid gone wild in
candyland. Idealistic about how the world should be, self-centered
as a three year old, but with the charm and finesse of a diplomat.
[> [> Jasmine as the
Squire of Gothos? Hmmmm...hadn't thought of that. -- Rhys,
15:59:00 04/26/03 Sat
[> [> [> I'm not clear
that Jsamine actually was there at all.... -- Briar Rose,
17:52:46 04/26/03 Sat
Man-tis says that "we loved her first" and seems to
say that she "was special to them" - but it doesn't
appear clear to me (yet) that she ever actually came to them at
all, at any time.
Maybe this is because Man-tis says, "But she comes to you.
Not us." And that they had built a temple to her, yet she
didn't come. She chose the humans. Which seems to be why Man-
tis is trying so hard to use humans (mistaking Vamps for humans
no less...) to get her to go to his dimension of "Oh. Hell."
and why Angel ends up going there.
[> [> [> [> She
got off at the wrong stop? (spoilers Sacrifice) -- Wickedbuffy,
20:37:35 04/26/03 Sat
dang my broken tivo.. but I thought the creature said she was
theirs first, and the humans took her away. As in - the creature
thought she was Jasmine-napped from them. So was he angry because
they got to name her and therefore claim her, before the creatures
had a chance to?
Maybe Jasmine got off the deity train a stop too early and accidentally
ended up in LA dimension instead of the next stop, her real destination,
the creaturebug one. And the creaturebugs had paid for her ticket.
[> [> [> [> [>
hey! i can post this here instead! -- anom, 00:06:13
04/27/03 Sun
That is, instead of the thread that was archived while I was writing
my post (yet again). It's late, & I'm not gonna rewrite my earlier
post to adapt it for this thread. But I like your idea, WB--& your
names for the critters: Man-Tis, creaturebug...cool!
Anneth (I think) wrote: "...leaving the earth filled with
miserable muttering creatures desperate to get her back, much
like the dimension Angel's just entered?"
Hmm...so that dimension's denizens have something in common w/the
Free Will Gang: they both want "Jasmine" out of "our"
dimension! Could be a motivation for them to cooperate w/Angel.
The high priest might tell him her true name in exchange for a
promise to use it to send her back to them. That is, if they can
get past their attitude toward "furries"...& the fact
that Angel has just killed 1 of their kind.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> More on the Human/Skitterbug Alliance (spoiler Sacrifice)
-- WickedBuffy, 08:46:49 04/27/03 Sun
(sorry you lost your thread - I HATE that!)
(Also, it was B.Rose who named "ManTis"), I was just
creaturebug. Don't want to take her credit! And it's kinda fun
making up new names fo it!)
Yes, I still think they have a common goal too! But I don't think
it will be the usual kind of alliance to reach it.
The creaturebug seems obsessively paranoid and possessive about
Jas, just from the little shown of its ways, it doesn't seem likely
to trust or voluntarily join up with the humans.
But, through trickery or just plan good strategy, I think Wes
and all can come up with a plan that helps the creaturebug succeed
at getting Jasmine back into its world, even without the creaturebugs
knowledge.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> but the "alliance" part is strictly speculation!
-- anom, 22:58:00 04/27/03 Sun
"But, through trickery or just plan good strategy, I think
Wes and all can come up with a plan that helps the creaturebug
succeed at getting Jasmine back into its world, even without the
creaturebugs knowledge."
Looks to me like that part will all be up to Angel, since he's
the only one who can go to the critterbugs' (I like that spelling!)
dimension. And the main piece of info they need is "Jasmine's"
real name, which would be hard to find out w/out the high priest's
knowing about it. Angel's best chance is probably to convince
it they both want the same thing: Jasmine out of the humans' dimension
& in the critterbugs'. (Unless they can trick it into saying her
name, like Superman getting Mr. Mxyzptlk to say his name backwards!)
The
Price of Belonging (spoiler Sacrifice) -- lunasea, 15:21:21
04/25/03 Fri
What is Jasmine or rather what is she a metaphor for? That question
has preoccupied my thoughts for a few weeks now, even keeping
me company as I drift off to sleep and being there to welcome
me back from dream land. A super-powerful being that is just making
people happy and taking away their free-will isn't quite up to
what I expect from ME. I am sure that when we find out her name,
my question will be answered, but who wants to wait until then.
I avoid spoilers (mostly, I can't resist actor and writer interviews),
but I sure like to try to figure these things out.
So here is my attempt to figure out the mystery that is Jasmine.
What got me this week was the power in knowing her name. A name
is an interesting thing. It is how we distinguish each other.
Even if your child is named after you, jr or a number follows
the name so that the individual is still distinguished.
It is also an incredibly intimate thing. How many people here
don't give out their name on-line except to a chosen few? (my
name is Jeanie, hi) When I write, I am very conscious of when
characters use each others' names. It shows a familiarity and
comfort level that I don't use lightly. The first word out of
Jasmine's mouth was a name, "Angel." With that word,
Angel was added to the body Jasmine.
I got to thinking about what we have seen Jasmine actually do.
Besides lots of talking, the main action she has taken since being
born (we cannot assume anything done by Cordy was Jasmine. It
could have been fanatic Cordy. We don't know yet) was eating people.
Before she eats them, she has them remove their clothing. Why?
What is clothing?
Clothing is like our names, it tends to make us individuals. She
has chosen a variety of people each wearing a variety of clothing.
I particularly liked the biker guy. When we are naked, though,
we are stripped of this. In groups where unity is desired, this
unity is reflected in the dress. One way of stripping someone
of their old identity is to make them give up their old clothes.
Jasmine could have people put on some sort of uniform outfit,
but that is an extra-step if she is going to just devour them.
Instead she just has them strip, thus making them more uniform.
They lose their identity even more by this action. They are ready
to truly become one with the body Jasmine.
We now have a utopian wonderland where the only criminals are
the Fang Gang. A criminal is an individual who sees themselves
as an individual and acts against the wishes of the body politic.
No one sees themselves as an individual, so there is no crime.
We first see this utopian wonderland in "Magic Bullet."
We don't see Lotus Eaters who don't have to do anything. Lives
are continuing. Not everyone is at the Hyperion. This is about
more than just happiness. It is about the one thing that Angel
wants most, belonging.
Thing is this belonging is one way. It is all the worker bees
linked to the queen, but the queen is removed enough so that she
is above all of it and can control it. It can be compared to good
v bad magick. In evil magick, Willow is above everything and controls
it. With good magick, she learns that everything is connected
(including her, which she still hasn't gotten quite yet. No spoiler,
just speculation based on what Giles said in Lesson "Why
aren't you in your lesson?")
Jasmine may or may not be evil (probably more likely she is above
such concepts), but she is removed from everyone to a degree.
It is the body Jasmine, not just the body. Cordy shared a blood
link as well as a mystical one with Jasmine. By being "infected"
either with Jasmine or Cordy's blood one is removed from the body
Jasmine, because one becomes Jasmine. S/he becomes blood sister/brothers.
This separates them from the rest of the people that make up the
body Jasmine.
That is what is important, this uniformity of the body Jasmine.
I named all my cats Jasmine. Even the cats no longer have an identity.
I love the montage in "Magic Bullet." It showed the
variety of reactions to Jasmine. It showed where their individuality
still existed. Even in the uniform hatred of Fred, the way that
was expressed was different.
Is Jasmine stripping people of their indentity or are they giving
it up because of what she gives them? Skip wasn't exactly honest
with Cordy, but she had to consent before he could do anything.
Jasmine doesn't say "Now I am going to eat you," but
the people take off their clothes willingly. They aren't being
stripped of their identities, but instead willingly discard them.
Why? What could Jasmine offer that is worth giving all that up?
Jasmine is the flower that symbolizes amiability and joy. What
could make people that happy? "People who need people are
the luckiest people in the world." Why? Because then they
belong to something. Buffy and Angel, the heroes that protect
the world are separated from the world by that. They are incredibly
lonely and thus incredibly unhappy.
Jasmine makes everyone feel like they belong. "In the beginning..."
what a great story. It removes race, sex and all other isms that
separate people. It makes us all just people again. Everything
about Jasmine has been about belonging. People are happy because
they are just people again. Typically that is the means to something
nefarious. What if that is the end?
Earlier this season over on Buffy, we had "Storyteller."
ME isn't above making fun of itself or its fans. Hopefully its
fans can laugh at themselves as well as the writers can. How many
people are watching this final arc on Angel and saying "I
wouldn't give up my free-will" or "I don't want to belong."
The beautiful part of Jasmine is that NO ONE was immune until
they were infected with the blood. An entire state, minus Sunnydale,
has been drawn into the body Jasmine. The Catholic Church, the
Governor, all have been enthralled.
What does Jasmine offer that could enthrall people across the
board? What does every human being want? Happiness? A little too
simplistic for ME. What is behind that happines? If it was just
happiness, Angel would be in serious trouble. Rather than drop
to his knees, he would have lost his soul. It has to be something
more than that.
No matter how much people want to say they don't need it, everyone
wants to belong. We may not be willing to give up certain things
to do this, but most are willing to give up a lot. When we truly
belong to something, we are happy. Personally, I don't feel like
I belong unless I belong while I am true to myself. But what if
someone could just make me feel like I belonged? Instant unity.
I could still be me, but I would have the union we all crave as
well.
"Angel." Jasmine gazed down and Angel instantly belonged.
Connor feels like he is part of something and even though the
thrall has been broken (probably), he is still part of the body
Jasmine.
"Why can't we?" Angel asked that to Fred. Once you know
you don't belong, how do you go back to the illusion? Connor managed
to, but Connor is seriously messed up. He doesn't know what real
belonging is. Angel does. Fred does. Wesley does. Gunn does. Lorne
does.
Sacrifice. What are you willing to sacrifice to belong? What is
the price of belonging?
[> Re: The Price of Belonging
(spoiler Sacrifice) -- Lot's Wife, 18:30:49 04/25/03 Fri
"Sacrifice. What are you willing to sacrifice to belong?
What is the price of belonging?" (Lunasea)
IMO, the significance is that, a person who truly belongs gives
up nothing to belong. The SHP on Angel are giving up their freewill
to belong and it is not necessary.
What I am very interested in finding out is how the SHP will get
their freewill back, will they want it back, will be they be sad
to have it back (like Angel and co)???
I regard Jasmine as a symbol or methaphor of an overprotective
mother. At least, this week, I do.
[> [> Re: The Price of
Belonging (spoiler Sacrifice) -- lunasea, 19:39:16 04/25/03
Fri
IMO, the significance is that, a person who truly belongs gives
up nothing to belong.
Even to enter the Social Contract we give up something. It may
not be something we particularly value, but we have to give up
something.
When I join a book club, I give up that night of the week. I get
so much more back, but I do have to give up that night. I also
agree to read the book we will discuss, so I give up total freedom
to choose what I read. I can take that freedom back at any time,
but to belong, I give it up.
What are the Jasminites giving up? Besides the ones that become
snacks, what have people given up? She doesn't want their possessions.
Free will is thrown around a lot. If people were truly meat puppets,
there would be no individuality. There still is in LA. That was
shown in the montage in SHP.
Jasmine is still big on consent. She says "Would you like
to come with me?" It is manipulation, not control. It is
easier to say you were controlled than to admit that you were
manipulated, especially if you don't understand what was offered
to you.
A lot will come out when we find out her name. Speculation, not
spoiled. I have this feeling that the Fang Gang is wrong about
a lot. "Magic Bullet" was about conspiracy theories.
One thing about conspiracy theorists, they are nuts. They are
paranoid. They are delusional. Fred was placed in that role. Why
would ME do that? Why the "Magic Bullet" the ultimate
conspiracy theory and just to make sure we were on the same page,
they referenced Oswald and shot both Jasmine and Angel with the
Magic Bullet (just like President Kennedy and Governor Connolly
were)?
Rather than free will, I think the idea of belonging, which is
what the show has been about from the beginning, is an intersting
one to explore. What would you be like if you got hit with Jasmine
vibes? (I also like to think about what I would be like if I got
vamped) You could still be you, but you would belong. How important
is this need? What would you discard? What defenses would you
drop?
Free Will. Two very important words in the Buffyverse. Is that
what people are giving up or are they dropping what they no longer
need now that they feel they really belong? People don't even
know what they are being hit with, so in that regard, they have
no choice. Once they are hit with it, what don't they need any
more? What wouldn't you need?
It isn't a question of free will, but what do you want to do.
Is she replacing their desires with hers or is what the SHP are
really what humans want in our cores?
There is an interesting thing to explore. Do humans really want
to be SHP? If so, why aren't we? Are you willing to give that
up?
[> [> [> Re: The Price
of Belonging (spoiler Sacrifice) -- WickedBuffy, 20:57:04
04/25/03 Fri
It reminds me of things like Jonestown. Where, with free will,
(most) these people knowingly drank the juice and died because
Jones said to. Or the people who died with their black Nikes on,
who chose to die so they could go someplace better.
It seems they had free will - they weren't imprisoned. They gave
up something important (their lives) in return for something else
they held more important. That they felt strongly about.
The SHPs might still have free will, (do we really know that part
yet?) and because of the feeling that they get from Jasmine, they
do certain things that are out of the ordinary way of life.
I think Jasmine wants to be the Universe. She goes to different
places, dimensions, etc and gives the beings there what they want
most. The beings chose to give her what she wants. Then she moves
on to absorb another realm. It's not clear what the people become
that she aborbs - are they now cells in her body? Did their souls
go in also? Souls have always been such a big theme on both shows.
Jasmine can't be Utopia, because that means too many different
things to too many different people.
I am rambling. ::whap:: Anyway, there's those cultures where no
one ever revels their true name, as it is believed all your power
is in it, and whoever knows it, controls you and your power. I'm
not an anthropologist or myth researcher - but does anyone know
what that belief is based on?
It's kind of funny that in our culture, there's a popular belief
that if you can name your problem, then you are more than halfway
to solving it. Name it and claim it.
Then again, like a vampire has to be invited in by someone living
there to stay in your house - perhaps Jasmine has to be named
by somone living in the realm she is entering in order to stay.
Sadly, I know people who *would* willingly die just to be able
to be perfectly happy and cared for completely (as in Jasmines)
for even a short amount of time. It would be worth it to them.
Jasmine is the dark side of Agape.
PS Where are ALL the demons???? AIs did NOT kill them all. Seriously,
did I miss something? First they came from all over because of
the darkness, now I don't see any but Lorne and the fingerfood
guy. Why would Jasmine have the Beast turn out the lights so all
the demons could come to LA? They survive on being evil, well
most vamps at least, so are they all instantly dead?
[> [> [> [> Re:
The Price of Belonging (spoiler Sacrifice) -- lunasea, 08:05:37
04/26/03 Sat
SHP ties back to Orpheus. Angel still sees himself as Angel and
Angelus and can easily dismiss what Angelus does as "not
my fault." There have been lots of talk about free will,
both on the boards and on the show. How about personal responsibility?
Angel will never be free until he realizes that Angelus is part
of him, not the demon. Wasn't that one of the points of the little
brain trip? The Angelus arc gave some pretty important insights
into Angel's character, but that has all been side-stepped by
the appearance of Jasmine.
When Angel was resouled, he didn't get all broody on us. He didn't
feel bad for anything Angelus did, except for how much it affected
Wesley. That was more like a friend commiserating with another,
than actually feeling personally responsible. That is what led
into the end stretch. Why? Angelus has to be more than just a
pleasant distraction. What came out has to tie to Jasmine (that
is how ME writes). How does it do this?
For me the part of the Angelus arc that stood out the most was
the lines in "Release" about pain. The only way to stop
the pain is to hurt someone else. I don't remember the title actually
appearing in the episode. I think it may have originally appeared
in this part. He is talking about how to be released from all
that pain.
That is what causes people to hurt others. It is what causes Angel
to divide himself into Angelus and Angel. It is what Jasmine demands
that Connor give her. That is where Jasmine's power lies. She
is able to stop that pain. Not by giving them a happy pill. That
is rather simplistic for ME. Instead she goes to the source of
that pain.
Angelus says in that speech about pain what the source of it is.
Too bad Faith didn't stick around. I would have loved to see her
under Jasmine's thrall. Same with Lilah.
Are the SHP the ones that are acting or have they been able to
give up all their acts because of what Jasmine gives them? Those
who have been infected went right back into "champion mode."
They are shutting down because that act hurts to the bone. They
channel that into hurting someone else, namely the bad guy. The
difference between Slayer and vampire is what they hunt.
That rambled. Sorry. The original point is that it is easier for
the Fang Gang to say that they were enchanted and lacked free
will than to admit that something like Billy was going on. It
is also easier for the audience. It was downright painful watching
Angel in this arc. Not what I want my champion to be doing, but
one thing David Boreanaz shows incredibly well is Angel's vulnerability
and fear.
[> [> [> [> Answers
(spoiler Sacrifice) -- lunasea, 08:28:03 04/26/03 Sat
PS Where are ALL the demons???? AIs did NOT kill them all.
Seriously, did I miss something? First they came from all over
because of the darkness, now I don't see any but Lorne and the
fingerfood guy. Why would Jasmine have the Beast turn out the
lights so all the demons could come to LA? They survive on being
evil, well most vamps at least, so are they all instantly dead?
Killed or left. AI was doing amazing in this regard. They had
divine backing. Since Jasmine is giving her "In the beginning"
and it includes demons, her followers are ready to accept their
existence and there is probably more to the demon jihad than just
AI. Scapegoats are rather handy in such instances.
Don't assume it is Jasmine that turned out the light. We don't
know yet what happened pre-birth. A lot of evil was done in her
name. Cordelius didn't believe in good and evil, but Jasmine seems
to.
The question I want answered is why Cordelius wanted Angel without
his soul and can Angel ever forgive her for this.
I'm not an anthropologist or myth researcher - but does anyone
know what that belief is based on?
It is part of Sumer-Babylonian thought (I am willing to bet that
the monument/temple that the insect people made is a Zigguart)
and carries over to Genesis. The insect guy talks a lot about
magic, flesh v word. There is a tremendous power in speech, even
more than the power of the pen. God creates the world from the
word and man has dominion over the creatures of the earth by naming
them. I don't have my reference materials handy, but I will look
up the appropriate passages in the Enuma Elish when I get home.
[> [> [> [> [>
Jamsine & Angels Soul (spoiler Sacrifice) -- WickedBuffy,
10:41:27 04/26/03 Sat
"The question I want answered is why Cordelius wanted Angel
without his soul"
Maybe the clue is about her wanting the whole person. Like when
she told Connor he was holding back something from her, that she
wanted it - his pain. Connor seemed to have a brief inner struggle
about it, then appeared to give it to her, then she smirked.
I don't think Jamsine would be able to do that with Angel, not
matter how SH he was and no matter how hard he tried to give the
Angelus part to her. She wants the whole and wouldn't be able
to get all of Angel.
Then again, the whole Angelus soul thread did take alot of attention
off Cordelia and anything else that could have been brewing. It
also helped create an even greater lack of trust in Connor about
Angel - and while Angel/Angelus was sweeping around town, Cordelia
and Connor weren't being interrupted in their growing relationship.
Maybe it wasn't as much about the soul as what was able to come
about while the soul was being so focused on.
But Jasmine doesn't seem anymore focused on Angel anymore than
Fred or any of the other infected ones. Cordelia DID have that
soul in her possesion for awhile - perhaps she did something to
it, took something from it, or needed it to complete the ritual
to let Jasmine come into this realm from the insecty one.
Wonder what she'd do with Spike?
About Angel forgiving Cordy? The last rift between them was Cordy
coming to terms with seeing all of Angels past misdeeds as Angel
and as Angelus. I'd call it about even, as forgiving goes.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Jasmine & Angels Soul (spoiler Sacrifice) --
lunasea, 18:13:57 04/26/03 Sat
Cordelia DID have that soul in her possesion for awhile - perhaps
she did something to it, took something from it, or needed it
to complete the ritual to let Jasmine come into this realm from
the insecty one.
Or perhaps it is the soul itself that she was interested in. The
soul of a champion. Lilah said removing it made powerful ripples
that her contacts picked up. Angel doesn't have just any soul.
It is a Buffy-level soul.
Wonder what she'd do with Spike?
What I wouldn't give to see him puppy dog after Jasmine instead
of Buffy. Too bad Jasmine can't make a pit stop in Sunnydale.
About Angel forgiving Cordy? The last rift between them was
Cordy coming to terms with seeing all of Angels past misdeeds
as Angel and as Angelus. I'd call it about even, as forgiving
goes.
Not talking logic. Cordy tricked Angel into doing the one thing
he most didn't want to do. There are going to be feelings there.
Angelus really didn't do much of anything to Cordy. It will really
depend on how Jasmine and Cordy are related. The Buffyverse tends
to just dismiss things because of magick. Will that happen? I
will be disappointed if it does. I'd rather see her not wake up
or be eaten (doubtful) than to just have it swept under the carpet
like was done on "Gingerbread."
[> [> [> [> [>
Where did all the demons go? (spoiler Sacrifice) -- WickedBuffy
(it's still buggin me), 11:16:39 04/26/03 Sat
I'm really still not clear on what happened to them all.
Even with Jasmine pointing out their lairs, and the AI's working
likecaffeinated Power Rangers, there wouldn't have been enough
time in the day to destroy every single different one. Was it
explained specifically in an episode (I missed). If someone knows
wich one, please let me know. It's just odd. There were other
good demons errrr "otherportalers" besides Lorne in
LA, are they SH now? Why none at the hotel?
(What are the vamps drinking to stay alive? Can't be THAT many
pigs in LA)
[> And the cost of Free
Will (spoiler Sacrifice) -- M., 20:38:34 04/25/03 Fri
It might not be about what Jasmine is giving, but what she is
taking. Angel, Wes and Gunn all talked about how wonderful it
was not to have to question things; not to worry about if what
they are doing is right or wrong and most importantly not to have
to worry about the consequences.
It reminds me of Buffyís description of Heaven from ìOnce
More With Feelingî. She says there was ìNo PainÖno
fear no doubt.î. But Buffy was still her, she still had
her individuality and her identity. But that is not possible in
this world. If you make decisions for your self, the will always
be doubt. If you try to make your own way in this world, there
will be fear. It is not hard to see the appeal of what Jasmine
is selling and you donít need to look to the worlds of
science fiction or fantasy to find people who buy it. I donít
think that Joss is making an anti religious statement with Jasmine,
but maybe just a general statement about why people are willing
to give themselves totally to a church, a government, or a cause.
[> [> Which came first
the chicken or the egg -- lunasea, 08:15:49 04/26/03 Sat
It might not be about what Jasmine is giving, but what she
is taking
Can you take something without dealing with its source? If she
is removing pain or something similar, why doesn't it come back?
Just taking away pain is interesting, but with Angelus we got
into where pain comes from. Why do that if it doesn't factor into
this part of the arc?
You offer an interesting perspective that also goes to vampires
v humans. Do vampires relate to human beings because of the absence
of the soul or the addition of the demon?
[> [> [> Re: Which
came first the chicken or the egg -- WickedBuffy ( I was possessed
when I wrote the ending.), 11:27:00 04/26/03 Sat
It reminds me of how some antidepressants work. (Disclaimer -
I'n no MD so I might get the names confused, it's the point that's
important.)
To chemically get someone to a "happy,calm" state, do
you increase the serotonin or decrease the nortriptine? Do you
take away or do you add to?
It usually doesn't matter as long as it works. Jasmines followers
don't care how it works, if it's taking or giving - just that
it's working and they feel fiiiiiine. It's the "outside observers"
(infected ones) who are making the judgement calls about right
and wrong ways of living. The right and wrong method of being
at peace. Maybe they are fighting evolution.
So, neither the egg nor the chicken came first,
It was the farmacist. ::ducking::
How
Fast Does Angel Heal? (Spoilers through "Sacrafice")
-- Finn Mac Cool, 16:36:09 04/26/03 Sat
In "Sacrafice", the bug-like demon stabs a claw through
Angel's chest. Just a little later, though, he doesn't seem even
discomforted by what should be a gaping hole in his chest. You
know, I'm not sure about this, but I don't recall seeing any spilled
blood on him; he might even have pulled a Spike and somehow regenerated
his shirt. Now, I only saw the ep that once, so maybe they did
show the wound, but at least I didn't notice it, and Angel didn't
seem to be in any pain or unpleasantness, despite having what
has to be a hole at least one foot in diamter in his chest.
[> I've actually talked
to someone very knowledgable of medicine -- VampRiley, 18:34:54
04/26/03 Sat
She's a fan of both Buffy and Angel and she speculates that vamps
heal roughly 50 times faster than humans. And, since slayer's
seem to heal about as fast, the same would seem to apply for them,
too. Maybe the claw didn't go in very far. Did it come out the
other side?
VR
[> [> Re: I've actually
talked to someone very knowledgable of medicine -- Mal, 19:17:32
04/26/03 Sat
It DID come out the other side, but there were also majorly distinct
blood smears that remained through the episode.
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