April 2002 posts


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Spike is going to be 40 in August? -- CitoLoco, 18:48:45 04/06/02 Sat

I cut and pasted the following from the newsgroup alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, it was entitled "JM's Age - finish reading the bleeding post!" and posted on 4/6/02 at 2 a.m.:


Apparently people only read the first three lines of my last post and
began a whole new debate that I didn't intend ... That post was meant
to clarify, not further the confusion.

So for the patience-impaired, here's the gist of my last post ...

According to the California Bureau of Vital Statistics there was only
one (1) James Wesley Marsters born on August 20th in the state of
California and the year of his birth is 1962, which makes him 40 years
old this coming August.

Wei-Li Sun


~*~ Flames are for lighting candles ~*~
[> No way. Really? -- Ian, 19:08:22 04/06/02 Sat

[> Yeah, and you'll be what? 15? -- LeeAnn, 19:18:38 04/06/02 Sat

Kinda sick of the people horrified that JM is not a kid despite looking so good. I think it's the teenagers and anti-Spike people hung up on that.
[> [> I'm not sick LA. Just suprised. -- Ian, 19:24:04 04/06/02 Sat

[> [> Re: Yeah, and you'll be what? 15? -- CitoLoco, 19:40:44 04/06/02 Sat

Actually, I'm 34, are you saying there's something wrong with him being 40? You ageist?
[> [> [> Re: Yeah, and you'll be what? 15? -- Apophis, 22:49:14 04/06/02 Sat

This just goes to show that JM should play John Constantine instead of Nic Cage. He's in the right age bracket. I'm sure Cage can't English accent his way out of a paper bag.
[> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, and you'll be what? 15? -- Rendyl, 05:54:25 04/07/02 Sun

Sigh...JM as Constantine...Now that is a movie I would watch. Nothing against Cage but I sometimes wonder who makes these casting decisions because they often seem to have no clue what the original character is like.

Ren
[> [> Yeah, never trust an evil ASPer under 30! Erm, something like that. ;) -- spike'ssokewl!, 20:10:41 04/06/02 Sat

[> This board is to discuss the Buffyverse, not the actors private lives or their ages... -- Rufus, 01:20:25 04/07/02 Sun

The topic of Mr. Marsters age has been done repeatedly and is a waste of board space. Could we move on to topics relevent to the plot of either Angel the Series and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
[> [> here, HERE -- SheWhoShallNotBeNamed, 01:21:32 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Vamps Don't Age - Its NOT fair -- Spike'ssokrewl, 01:23:09 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> Re: Vamps Don't Age - Its NOT fair -- Grandma Toothy, 01:29:49 04/07/02 Sun

Ahh, of course we age, sonny! Got me fangs in the water glass by my bed. Damn shame when I forget to put them in... so hard to gum people to death, don't you know?
[> [> boo hoo -- CitoLoco, 05:27:14 04/07/02 Sun

boo hoo
[> [> Re: This board is to discuss the Buffyverse, not the actors private lives or their ages... -- Rendyl, 05:56:53 04/07/02 Sun

***Could we move on to topics relevent to the plot of either Angel the Series and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.***

Cough...like chocolate? or cats? or maybe chocolate covered Spike? (evil grin) Relevancy is in the eye of the beholder.

Ren -hunting for left over Easter chocolate to send Rufus
[> [> [> Re: This board is to discuss the Buffyverse, not the actors private lives or their ages... -- VampRiley, 10:32:35 04/07/02 Sun

I got a small, leftover chocolate rabbit. Will that do, Ren?


VR
[> [> [> Re: This board is to discuss the Buffyverse, not the actors private lives or their ages... -- Rufus, 15:57:57 04/07/02 Sun

Big difference between joking about Canadian Chocolate and cats, it isn't personal and hopefully doesn't start a barrage of snide comments. Talking about a character is one thing, talking about the actor who plays that character can become negative and the age issue with some has been over discussed. Unless of course you want to talk about the private lives of said Chocolate or Cats..;)
[> Also, I hear, he's not really a vampire. -- Lilac, 07:25:29 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> James Marster's isn't a vampire!? Next you'll be telling me his hair isn't natural blond. ;) -- Slain, 09:19:01 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> Oh, my God! ;o) -- Cactus Watcher, 09:26:02 04/07/02 Sun

And someone is spreading a vicious rumor that JM and SMG aren't really doing it when the camera shows them under the covers! Alas, and perhaps alack!
[> [> [> [> Can we not do this? -- Liquidram, 14:03:53 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> Look, my point was.... -- Lilac, 16:14:42 04/07/02 Sun

I agree with you 100%. How old someone is, what their sexual preference or marital status is, or if they separate their recycling property -- none of it is our business. None of the people we enjoy watching is the person they are playing.

Personally, I find that knowing too much about someone's personal life can ruin their professional work for me. The major example I would point too is Woody Allen -- used to enjoy his movies, his personal life blew up all over the press, now I a hard time watching them. I for one would not want to venture into public life with as much nosing around into personal business as happens these days.
[> [> [> ...and he's not English =P -- CitoLoco, 14:21:33 04/07/02 Sun

Is there a pattern to BtVS season tones? -- Ixchel, 23:23:39 04/06/02 Sat

Probably there isn't, but I thought I'd consider it from the perspective of what is the overall emotional note (positive, negative, mixture). Of course this is IMHO.

Season 1 - Positive
Positive: SG formed, Master "killed", Buffy revived
Negative: Jesse dead

Season 2 - Negative
Positive: Oz joined SG, Acathla stopped
Negative: Jenny Calendar dead, Angel sent to hell, Buffy leaves town

Season 3 - Positive and Negative
Positive: Mayor destroyed
Negative: Faith lost, Angel and Cordelia leave

Season 4 - Positive
Positive: Anya and Tara joined SG (sort of), Adam destroyed
Negative: Oz leaves

Season 5 - Negative
Positive: Dawn and Spike joined SG (sort of), Glory defeated
Negative: Joyce dies, _Buffy_ dies

I basically asked myself what I felt about each season and then tried to support that view. Very subjective, I know.

So the pattern could be positive, negative, mixture (repeating). Following this, season 6 should have a positive and negative overall tone (for me at least).

Hmmmm, I think I'm seeing pattern where none exists.

Ixchel
[> Re: Is there a pattern to BtVS season tones? -- Heinaki, 05:41:47 04/07/02 Sun

Hmm... That's funny. I've always thought that there's a pattern INSIDE each season. If you ask me, they've all started out in a positive tone and then gradually turned darker. But I guess you're right about the overall tone of the seasons, 1st was certainly lighter than 2nd or 3rd.

Now that I think of it, 6th season wasn't so sunny and cheery to begin with after all. Damn. There goes my theory... Maybe I can call 6th season an exception from the pattern?
[> [> I agree that there is a pattern inside each season. -- Ixchel, 15:11:40 04/07/02 Sun

Don't discard your theory yet, the beginning of season 6 could be perceived as positive (or at least less negative?) compared to the rest of the season (though _not_ compared with previous seasons' beginnings).

Ixchel
[> Re: Is there a pattern to BtVS season tones? -- Slain, 09:39:49 04/07/02 Sun

Definitely subjective, though I do agree that Season 2 was a very dark or negative season. Personally, I'd think in terms of the content of the show (dark or light) and the tone (dark or light). That is, in Season 2 the content is dark, and the overall tone is a mixture of light and dark.

Season 1 - light tone, mostly light content

Season 2 - dark and light tone, dark content

Season 3 - light tone, mostly light content

Season 4 - dark and light in both tone and content

Season 5 - same as 4

Season 6 - stark contrasts between dark and light in both tone and content

I think overall the pattern has been to create a balance between comedy and drama in both tone and content of the show - in Season 6, while there is a balance, serious and non-serious aspects of the show are clearly deliniated.
[> [> Interesting, I think I disagree about season 3 though. -- Ixchel, 15:21:36 04/07/02 Sun

But, maybe, I'm assigning too much importance to the "Faith" aspect of that season. It makes me perceive season 3 as darker than perhaps you do?

Also, I perceive season 5 as darker than season 4, but again this is probably due to two aspects (Joyce's death and Buffy's death) that maybe skew my perception of the season.

Thanks for your post, definitely something to think about.

Ixchel
[> [> [> Re: Interesting, I think I disagree about season 3 though. -- Rattletrap, 17:49:09 04/07/02 Sun

Gotta say I'm with you on S3. That season had some wonderful light moments, but the last 6 or 8 episodes were generally pretty dark (Earshot, The Prom, Choices, GD1 among others). Unlike some of the other seasons, however, it ended on a really positive note (despite Angel's departure), so that may lead some to think of it as a light season.
[> [> [> [> Thanks, Rattletrap. -- Ixchel, 18:22:22 04/07/02 Sun

I guess that's why I perceive it as a mixture. Light because of the Mayor's defeat (and the humor of some episodes) and dark because of the loss of Faith (the perfection of their choice of name for her is beautiful) and as you said the last episodes.

The idea of Faith being balanced on a precipice and Angel almost reached her. Then, through circumstance and her own faults, she fell so far. It made the season quite dark for me.

Ixchel
any news on wisewoman? rufus, did you get to see her? -- anom, 09:33:43 04/07/02 Sun

[> Yes, I did, so sorry I went to bed and forgot to post -- Rufus, 16:14:57 04/07/02 Sun

This is the first time we met, and we had a wonderful time. WW is doing incredibly well, she is up moving around and is able to eat and drink and talk to us.
First proof that she is well is when my husband sat down she looked at him and said (paraphrase here) Gee....you're really cute. Everyones ears should be burning as we got a chance to talk about the shows and the show on the board ;).
Masq's ears should still be glowing red (in a good way).

I took down copies of e-mail best wishes......some flowers and a gift of a Dragonfly chime. WW is everything she seems to be on the board and was warm and welcoming. She wanted everyone to know that she misses and loves you all. On Monday she will get a laptop and will be able to be online. Hopefully we can get some alternate chat situation going.

BTW......OnM your ears should be red as well.
[> [> Great news. Big bear hugs to Wisewoman. Je pense à toi xx -- Aquitaine, 16:47:24 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> so glad to hear she's doing well! thanks, ruf! -- anom, 18:30:00 04/07/02 Sun

That's great news, especially considering how bad it sounded at first. Any idea how long she's likely to stay in the hospital?
[> [> [> Even she doesn't know -- Rufus, 18:38:40 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Thanks for the reassuring news! -- verdantheart, 07:39:04 04/08/02 Mon

[> D'Herb, want to mail me cause what I sent you didn't go -- Rufus, 16:19:38 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> I'm so glad to hear she is doing better. -- Ian, 16:36:01 04/07/02 Sun

[> Very glad she's ok. Lurkers love ya too WW!! -- Forsaken, 21:32:17 04/07/02 Sun

Chat room disabled -- Liq, 14:26:34 04/07/02 Sun

After much thought (or was it after a couple of days of serious irritation - can't decide which...) I have decided to disable the chatroom from my server. There are certain points of discussion where I draw my own personal line, and that line has been crossed numerous times in the past week.

I take no issue with freedom of speech; however, I do have the right to decide not to host specific topics on my domain name. A free chatroom can be reinstated by anyone by visiting Parachat.

Bye, LJ
[> At a time like this? -- d'Herblay, 15:26:08 04/07/02 Sun

Whatever your problems with it, ivyweb.com/chat is our best (sometimes our only) source of news as to the condition of dubdub. Her partner made his first foray into our world to seek out that very chatroom. And when she is healthy enough to return to the computer, the first place she's going to turn is your chatroom. She's not going to have the address of any parvenu chatroom bookmarked.

Plus, I met my girlfriend there, so I have a certain fondness for it.
[> [> Are there any solutions such as AIM or MSN, or Yahoo chats? -- Rufus, 16:04:16 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Just pointing out a couple of alternates here... -- LadyStarlight, 16:06:56 04/07/02 Sun

At the risk of being stoned off the board, there IS a chatroom on the Trollop Board. Parachat and everything. Plus, it's blue. (I just think that's cool)

This board is also a fairly good means of communication too.

Besides, when it comes right down to it, Liq's site, Liq's rules. :)
[> [> [> Re: Just pointing out a couple of alternates here... -- Rufus, 16:16:11 04/07/02 Sun

Also we can exchange AIM or Yahoo names and make sure we have a backup system going.
[> [> [> [> Re: Just pointing out a couple of alternates here... -- Rahael, 16:28:02 04/07/02 Sun

I have a yahoo and an AIm handle. Would it not be possible to set up a yahoo chatroom?

In the meantime, I would be happy to add my AIM/Yahoo handles to any group list, which perhaps could be collected.

I am very sad indeed that it has come to this. I have personally found our chatroom to be civilised, intelligent and funny. I'll miss certain people's conversations a great deal. I hope, not for long.
[> [> [> [> [> I've never been to chat - it sounds very heavy to me! -- Slain, 17:11:02 04/07/02 Sun

[> chatroom code has been emailed to Masq to link directly from this board -- Liq, 16:43:35 04/07/02 Sun

[> Now does everyone see why I don't like liq? -- vampire hunter D, 16:54:13 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Re: Now does everyone see why I don't like liq? -- LadyStarlight, 17:22:53 04/07/02 Sun

And do you think that maybe, just maybe, that attitude is why Liq has chosen to close the room?

I tell you, if it was my site, I would've closed it long before now. It's her site, personal attacks don't help the case to reopen it.
[> [> Don't make me slap you around V......;) -- Rufus, 17:45:47 04/07/02 Sun

If you have a problem with anyone keep it to yourself, or take it up with them, the public board is no place vent personal stuff.....
[> [> Geez, D, rude much? -- celticross, 18:00:53 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> I'm with them -- Vickie, 18:44:03 04/07/02 Sun

You need to lighten up, or get a life, or something. Gods, now I'm doing it.

Sorry. I take it back. Use email to exchange personal insults.
[> [> Go away kid, the adults are talking. -- HS, 21:36:48 04/07/02 Sun

[> Chatting on IRC. Please Try. -- LeeANN, 17:32:04 04/07/02 Sun

Chatting on IRC, Internet Relay Chat.

For those of you not familiar with IRC, Internet Relay Chat is a system of world wide chat used by hundreds of thousands of people each day. There are many IRC ChatNets, each served by many IRC Servers.
Some of the ChatNets include Dal.net, Ef.net, Under.net, etc
I have set up a channel on Dalnet called #ATPoBtVS.
IRC is more stable than javachat and anyone who can connect to the web can connect to IRC.

The quick way:
Go to Dalnet
In the Chat Now Box click Go.
This will take you to a javachat dialogue box. Once the javachat is loaded click on Grant.
It may take you several minutes to connect but once you do you will automatically be taken to a channel called #dalusers. That is not where you want to be.
In the white chat box at the bottom type the following, /join #ATPoBtVS
This should bring you to the All Things Philosophical on Buffy the Vampire Slayer Chat channel.

The longer better way:
Got to mIRC.com.
Download mIRC
Install mIRC by double clicking on the file you downloaded.
Start mIRC.
Go to General Options, the second icon in the menu at the top.
Highlight Connect on the list that appears on the side of the dialogue box.
In the Connect dialogue box there is white box with an arrow to the side. Click on that arrow, scroll down and highlight one of the Dalnet servers, one close to you. If you cannot connect using one Dalnet server, choose another one. There are at least 18.
Once the Dalnet server of your choice is in the white box, click Connect to IRC Server
Once you have connected you will get a scroll containing various information about the IRC Server to which you have connected.
In the white box at the bottom of the Status Window type /join #ATPoBtVS
Chat
This will take you to our channel, Masq's channel if she wants it.
[> [> IRC is great! -- agent156, 18:13:03 04/07/02 Sun

LeeAnn coerced me to post my support for using irc. LeeAnn, Rattletrap, and I are all in there right now. Everyone join in! Come on, everyone is doing it.
[> [> Re: Chatting on IRC. Please Try. -- Rattletrap, 18:16:55 04/07/02 Sun

Just downloaded MIRC, this is not bad.
[> [> It works fine. -- Sophist, 18:58:40 04/07/02 Sun

[> Okay, I've definitely missed something... -- VampRiley, 18:03:26 04/07/02 Sun

I've been really busy this last week, so I didn't have a chance to get to the chatroom. Could someone who knows explain to me what happened?



VR
[> [> Me too -- Rahael, 18:28:18 04/07/02 Sun

Hell, I've been in the chat room and I still don't have a clue. The only chat's I've had this week were very pleasant ones with the likes of d'H, Zargon, Sophist, Matching Mole, Mundus, Elle and so on.

Nothing happened there.... I've started hearing vague things second hand which leave me even more confused.
[> [> [> This whole thing is confusing, seeing how I can never get in to chat anyway. -- Deeva, 19:01:18 04/07/02 Sun

It's like hearing people having a conversation walking in and out of closed rooms. Something's missing and you have a feeling it's right over your head.
[> [> [> [> Exactly! God, it is so disorienting sometimes. Liq, you put in the effort so you make the choices. -- yuri (who was never in the chat room at the right time.), 19:19:44 04/08/02 Mon

[> I'm sorry for causing the dissention - that was not my intention... -- Liquidram, 18:57:12 04/07/02 Sun

Please email me to flame me or whatever, but let this thread die.

LJ
[> [> Nevertheless you did... -- Eric, 20:21:56 04/07/02 Sun

I wont debate your right to do so. But this little community of philosophical Buffylovers depend on that chat room. To just abruptly disconnect it without a good warning because you didn't like some of the topics (as yet un named) was bound to arouse hard feelings. I'm disappointed in you.
[> [> [> I would very much appreciate it... -- Sheri, 20:34:18 04/07/02 Sun

if people would refrain from flaming. I don't come to this board to see people make personal attacks. Liq has a right and a *responsibility* over what takes place on her server. If she decides not to disclose the specifics behind her decision, than I shall assume there is good reason. She has given her email address, so if you feel that you need to know more than what she felt was suitable for posting on a public bulletin board, I suggest you ask her directly.
[> [> [> I second Sheri's statements, and add... -- Solitude1056, 20:48:23 04/07/02 Sun

... server space is expensive, and so are a lot of the functions (chat room, storage, databases, links, uploads, blah blah blah) that Liq pays for as a matter of course, that few of us are able (even if willing) to financially support - let alone donate the coding time to set the stuff up.

I thought the point of this board wasn't to have a chat room but to post our philosophical musings on a series of pop cultures icons - namely, Buffy and her various spinoffs. The chat room is a nice extra blessing, but if the purveyor feels that she can't or won't support it for any reason then perhaps folks should find an alternative (of which plenty exist) or maybe just remember why we collect here in the first place - to discuss the philosophical stuff in a forum where everyone has the option to join in a discussion, and not just those of us lucky enough to be able to connect to a chat room.

Yes, chat is live and gives you immediate feedback, but plenty of us just aren't able to be online everytime someone hollers for a live-talk. I much prefer that someone posts and I can read it a day later & respond and the convo is still (usually) going on. Not instant gratification, but much more gratifying in the long run - especially to those of us in multiple time zones... I suppose that's why I'm a little mystified that anyone could be so indignant at having "their" talk-space taken away. *shrug*
[> [> [> [> Me three... -- OnM, 21:21:56 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> What they all said........... -- Rufus, 22:16:42 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> But that's just you -- vampire hunter D, 22:55:17 04/07/02 Sun

the biggest reason I come here any more is to chat with my friends in the chat room. Hell, it's the closest thing I have to a social life. And now Liq has taken that away for some no good and petty reason.

And no, she probably doesn't have a good reason. If she did, she would have told us when she took down the chatroom. Or at least given us some warning before doing it. Hell, I'm willing to bet she won't even tell the people who bother to ask. I have a theory, but nothing I can prove.

I'm almost at the end of my rope here. ANything else happens, I'm leaving
[> [> [> [> [> hey, D, you've got mail! -- Sheri, 23:54:18 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> Flame anyone? -- Eric, 07:46:07 04/09/02 Tue

Hey, I was disappointed in Liq. Not PO'd. Just disappointed. My point was that jerking the board w/o a decent warning was a bad idea. A "hey I don't wanna do this any more so next week it ends" warning would have been nice. I expressed my disappointment. I did NOT say it wasn't Liq's right to jerk it. I did not flame, here or by email, because 1. I'm wasn't that upset, 2. Real flaming diminishes the flamer more than the flamee. BTW, if anyone thinks THAT was a flame really ought to get out on the web more. Flames on the political and religious boards can be hazardous to your monitor!
[> [> [> [> [> No, I didn't think it was a flame - too low-key a post! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 08:27:46 04/09/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Not taken as a flame, Eric -- Liq, 12:29:36 04/09/02 Tue

You have every right to be disappointed AND let me know about it, so I certainly did not take your post as a flame.

My reasons were legitimate and had nothing to do with "not wanting to do it anymore." There were several warnings given to certain parties who chose to ignore them, so again, I'm sorry that you and many others were not aware of what was going on. If I could reset the weekend, I may have done it differently. Maybe.

Again, please feel free to email me if you have any other questions.

Linda
[> [> [> [> [> [> OT: Onion link -- d'Herblay, 12:58:58 04/09/02 Tue

:).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROTFLOL! -- Masq, 14:48:27 04/09/02 Tue

[> [> Re: I'm sorry for causing the dissention - that was not my intention... -- Rahael, 02:29:01 04/08/02 Mon

Maybe I'm making a major faux pas here, keeping this thread alive. Just wanted to make sure that you understood that I wasn't criticising you for taking it down. I can imagine a hundred and one scenarios why this event took place.

I'm certainly very grateful - you know all the reasons why - we've had this thing in the first place. Only, I feel a little out of the loop. The reason this isn't in a private email is because I've decided that don't really need to know why it ended. As Sheri pointed out, you probably have good reasons for doing this.

I just felt sad that certain individuals spoilt it for the rest of us. And just to say a word in defence of chat - apart from the fact that it produced 2 splendid board romances - not bad going - and numerous friendships. I mean, I wouldn't know you, or Sheri or LS or Elle without it. Furthermore, my increase in quality of posting can be directly pinpointed to the chatroom. Because before, I just chirruped from the sidelines, and slunk away when no one responded. The chat room made me feel like a part of the board community. And many posts started as conversation in the room.

So, perhaps its hour has passed. But I guess this post is a thank you for making it possible. And a reminder that though it could sometimes be misused, it was also a place where people made each other laugh, and made each other think. In other words, it exemplified for me the very best qualities of the board itself.

And for anyone who is interested, my AOL screen handle is
narmada22
and my Yahoo one is Rahael22. There are many people I don't want to lose touch with.
[> [> [> I feel the same way Rah... -- Liquidram, 03:45:38 04/08/02 Mon

I have met great people here; some I can honestly call friends (and you all know who you are.)

My reasons for taking the chatroom off my server are important for personal and business reasons which I have responsibilities to. While I know some of you will feel that there is a way for me to get past the personal reasons, I'm afraid that there is simply no getting around the business related conflicts that prevent me from continuing to host the chat room. I thank all of you who understand and stood up for my decision.

I apologize to all of you that my methods this morning left a lot to be desired. My decision was not based on any single person, so I'm sorry if anyone got their feelings hurt or felt singled out. That was never my intention.

I have emailed Masq the code for a new button that will take you into a chatroom that is identical to what you are all familiar with. The Existential Scoobies site is still active and I urge each of you to contribute something to Fictionary Corner. (March 2002 archives are up for real now - thanks dH.) I will let Masq know when new essays, stories and whatnot has been added to the site.

This is a great board and I'm glad I found it. I wish all of you the best. (yes vhD... always you too)

Linda

AIM: (office) liq7777
AIM: (home) liquidram7777
[> [> [> [> Like a deer in the headlights -- Brian, 03:56:22 04/08/02 Mon

"Nothing gold can stay"

Thanks, Liq - all the best from me.

Peace, Brian

Are all you folks up late, or am I up too early?

Defintely need coffee, perhaps laced with some bourbon.
[> [> [> [> [> We're either total insomniacs (hey Liq!)... or English (hey Rah!) -- Sheri, 04:10:44 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> Your house, your rules, liq, you don't owe us any apologies -- Ete, 04:23:53 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> This doesn't mean you will not be posting here in the future, does it? -- verdentheart, 07:49:49 04/08/02 Mon

Sounds a little like a good-bye. I'd really miss you if you stopped posting here. All the best.

- vh
[> [> I respect Liq's right to do whatever she feels is best for her, it would be helpful... -- A8, 12:28:32 04/09/02 Tue

...however, if someone could clue the rest of us in on any specific behavior on our part as chatters that led to Liq's decision. If Liq's decision had nothing to do with any of us crossing some line, then I really don't need to know any more. The forum she provided was a luxury and a courtesy and she should be free to do whatever she pleases, including if she so wishes (although, in my experience, that would be very uncharacteristic of her) limiting the topic, tone of discussions, or closing down the forum altogether.

I haven't been on line for a few days so I have no idea if there was any specific incident(s) which transpired that led to her decision. If there was some incident, a little daylight on the subject would at least provide us with some guidelines as to what is acceptable given our generally community here. Free speech yada yada yada...if we really respect each other, it shouldn't be too great an effort to regulate our behavior for the sake of maintaining a little peace in the community. For example, in verbal conversations, I have been known, given the company in a given situation, to use an expletive now and then or discuss what some might consider off color subject matter, but I've never felt it a major blow to my personal rights, to exercise discretion in my use of language or expression of opinion if to do so would avoid hurting someone's feelings. Since the chatroom is somewhat anonymous, I suppose it is easier to get carried away as if the norms of decorum observed in a face to face conversation don't apply. Since Liq's chatroom was the first and only one I ever entered, I have no other experiences with which to compare it. In the chats in which I've participated, we have generally observed the kind of boundaries recognized by good acquaintances gabbing it up over a few beers in a local pub. No fights ever broke out and a good time was generally had by all. Maybe I've been spoiled...anyhow...

As time has passed since I first began posting to the board almost a year ago, I have been less and less involved in participating in posted discussions for whatever reason, but the chatroom provided a great place to drop in, stay in touch with the board community and to pass the time with some interesting people. When there has been a topic that was of no interest to me or of a tone that was not suited to my mood at the moment, I'd be in and out of the chat in a flash.

Having no idea where this ramble is heading, I'd just like to thank Liq for the time she put in on the chat. She's a very cool person, with a lot on her plate, and, who in my opinion deserves gratitude from everyone here (VhD included ;-)) for the work she has done to enhance Masq's creation and further the opportunity to express ourselves.

I don't know--maybe it's just time for some of us to move on. As the song goes, we all know that changes aren't permanent, but change is.
Sunnydale and blissful (willful) ignorance... -- Ixchel, 17:21:01 04/07/02 Sun

One thing (of many) that I loved about season 3 was the implication of how the Mayor established Sunnydale to function. This seemed pure genius to me in that it explained so much about the attitudes of the denizens, the incompetence of the police department and the general atmosphere of denial.

IMHO, it almost seems like the (subconsciously acknowledged?) price to be paid for this blissful (willful) ignorance of the reality of their town was human sacrifice. The strange deaths, the high rate of death, and probably the loss of young people in particular (as teenage behavior would put them more in the path of vampires) could be interpreted as the cost for the fantasy of Sunnydale as a "nice place to live" while undermining that very same illusion.

That the town continues to function (in subsequent seasons) as the Mayor wanted is also brilliance. The idea that once in place his system is self-perpetuating is an interesting one. As someone (I'm sorry I forgot who) pointed out, the incompetent police in Sunnydale are the result of the Mayor's policies still in effect years after his death. It has an almost evolutionary aspect as well. Individuals in the police department who thoroughly investigated unusual circumstances probably ended up dead (or removed), whereas those who "went with the flow" remained.

Of course, Buffy and the SG have had an enormous (unacknowledged) impact on the town even aside from apocalypse aversion. Something I can imagine is a scene in which Buffy and co. overhear a Sunnydale funeral parlor owner lamenting the decline in the death rate, "Business was booming until 5 or 6 years ago! I just don't understand it."

Ixchel
[> That's why the Mayor is still my favorite villain -- Apophis, 18:45:15 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> He had his psychotic charm. "And boys? Let's watch the swearing." -- Ixchel, 18:53:53 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> And can't forget the toweletts.........:):):):) -- Rufus, 19:27:42 04/07/02 Sun

[> Re: Sunnydale and blissful (willful) ignorance... -- Eric, 20:10:15 04/07/02 Sun

Alas! I wish willful ignorance was only a fictional function of Sunnydale. Silence in the face of evil to maintain a communal status quo is very common. Nazi Germany is the best example of this, but such behavior is common to some degree in most places. Wisewoman brought up the fact that a serial killer hunting in her locale had been ignored by the police for years in spite of explicit evidence. A similar case occured in Alaska, but one police officer out of a whole department decided to listen to a prostitute who escaped. In the Godforsaken town where I'm at the cops finally clued into a pattern of murders dating back four years. Just because its a metaphor doesn't mean it isn't real.
[> [> Re: Sunnydale and blissful (willful) ignorance... -- parakeet, 21:48:09 04/07/02 Sun

Unfortunately (but, I think, naturally), willful ignorance is a part of human existence. We all focus in on our own lives, and truth is a messy business. We can all see a few pieces of the puzzle (the blind men and the elephant), and we often accuse those who see different pieces of being liars. This is not to say that truth doesn't exist, or that some "pieces" are not more accurate than others (to say so would be the worst kind of relativism), but life is seldom as simple as that portrayed on television. Thank you, BtVs and AtS (and Homicide, the Sopranos, the Simpsons, et al.) for at least partially acknowledging this. However, television is just television. For every glimmer of truth we are subjected to a thousand soundbites of propaganda and heavily slanted viewpoints. Some think that there is a liberal bias to this (I am not one of those); others think that there is an establishment/rock no boats/corporate bias to this (I am one of these). Some people refuse to see evil, but everybody disagrees on what evil is. Oh, not on the extreme examples (though, as Eric showed, we often refuse to see these, as well), but on those annoying, it's all so complicated, Hatfield and McCoy, where is the line drawn, should we bother, who is right, Bloods and Crypts, East Coast vs. West Coast, American vs. Everybody else, Conservative vs. Liberal, individual vs. corporate, state vs. insurgent, free vs. decency, etc, etc... And we still can claim honesty while refusing to give a fair hearing to those who say otherwise. The Mayor is positivism at its worst. He claims morality but aspires to totalitarianism. He's a charismatic figure who can cut to the heart of the matter, if needed (his observations on the relationship of Buffy and Angel), and he proclaims loudly his dedication to civic virtue. He is also a monster-wannabe. He is Pinochet, Castro, Stalin, Franco. And yes, he is Hitler and Mussolini. Sometimes we praise monsters so that we don't have to face contradiction. We are often weak.
S/W parallels - The Heart of Darkness (very long/Spoilers) -- shadowkat (at it again...), 17:33:58 04/07/02 Sun

S/W Parallels – The Heart of Darkness

Thanks to the Board for allowing me to take up board space and to all those people who continue to encourage and inspire me with their wonderful posts and comments. (I’ve gotten a tad ambitious with this one – ever since the recent spoilers were unleashed and I peeked, I couldn’t get the movie Apocalypse Now out of my mind. So be kind ;-).)

WARNING SPOILERS SPECULATION
(*This analysis takes into consideration the recent Spoilers about Spike and Willow, specifically the Big Bad and The Africa Trip.)

“Oh, I'm beginning to understand this now. It's all about the journey, isn't it?” Giles (while watching Apocalypse Now in Restless, Season 4, Btvs.) Actually Giles, it’s also about the reasons we take it.

Been thinking a lot about Apocalypse Now, a movie by Francis Ford Coppola and for those of you who haven’t seen it, is about the journey into the Heart of Darkness. It was adapted from the Joseph Conrad novel of the same name. The story centers on Marlow and Kurtz, two men that are almost mirror images of each other. Marlow and Kurtz both take journeys at different points in time into the jungle; in Conrad’s novel – the jungle is the Congo, located in the heart of Africa, in Apocalypse Now it’s the jungles of Vietnam and Cambodia. No light penetrates the heart of these jungles. It is the jungle of the subconscious, where the monster lies. And like the characters of Btvs, these men battle monsters.

The writers of Btvs are taking two characters into the heart of darkness. Willow, a human who practices witchcraft, is about to venture inside the darkness of her soul, and Spike, an insane vampire who has been helping humans, is about to venture into the dark jungles of Africa. Both journeys are symbolic, one is interior while the other is exterior and if the spoilers are true, the writers are planning on paralleling them throughout the end of this season and possibly next.

It’s interesting to note that in Season 1 of Btvs, the gang fights vampires and witches before they discover any other monsters. So it is only fitting that in Season 6 we are following the parallel journeys of a vampire and a witch into the heart of darkness.

First the vampire: Jesse – a geeky boy – is turned into a vampire in HARVEST, (Second episode of season 1 Btvs.) He relishes the new power flowing through him and immediately seeks out the girl who dumped him to enjoy his new confidence and power. In some ways Jesse’s story is very similar to Spike’s: both started out as “geeky” men rejected by the lady of their dreams, met up with a seductive female vamp Darla/Drusilla and became vampires. They both describe the experience as exhilarating.

Jesse: I feel good, Xander! I feel strong! I'm connected, man, to everything! (Harvest, Btvs, season 1)

Spike: Becoming a vampire is a profound and powerful experience. I could feel this new strength coursing through me. Getting killed made me feel alive for the very first time. (Fool For Love, Btvs, Season 5)

Poor Jesse gets staked before the end of the episode. Spike survives five seasons – possibly because he helps Buffy in Becoming Part II and possibly because of the chip. But of the two characters – Spike is transformed, at least partially into the reluctant helpmate of the Scooby Gang. Jesse becomes a pile of dust.

Now the witch: in the third episode of Btvs season 1, Witch, we meet Amy, an insecure teen whose mother, Catherine, has switched bodies with her using dark magic. Catherine wants to relive her glory days as a high school cheerleader, winning trophies, etc – she uses her power to obtain a sort of arrested development not unlike a vampire. Unlike Willow, Catherine’s witchcraft really hasn’t been used to help people or to enact vengeance. But like Willow, she gets off on her power, she had been responsible her whole life, marrying young, having a child, and she wants to go back to high school and have fun. As Anya states in Smashed: “Responsible people are ... always so concerned with ... being good all the time, that when they finally get a taste of being bad ... they can't get enough. It's like all (gestures) kablooey.”

When Catherine attempts to kill Buffy by sending her soul into a dark place – it is Catherine’s that ends up going there. Buffyverse is karmic - you reap what you sow. Catherine journeyed into that dark place to access her powers and eventually got stuck there – trapped within the very cheerleading trophy she still coveted. Willow on the other hand, gets a reprieve after she unleashes dark magic in the Bronze and on the alleys of Sunnydale (Smashed and Wrecked Season 6, Btvs). She goes cold turkey, gives up the magic as a pesky addiction.

In the beginning of Apocalypse Now – Martin Sheen’s character, Marlow, is barely sane. He has killed too many men, done too many covert operations, and is drunkenly climbing the walls of his hotel room in Saigon waiting for his next assignment. The military sobers him up and sends him into the deepest darkest part of Cambodian jungles to assassinate a top ranking military officer, Col. Kurtz, who has become something of an embarrassment. Their rational: let’s send a monster to kill a monster – if we’re lucky they’ll kill each other.

Spike is a vampire, a self-described killer. He is an insane vampire, the government has placed a chip in his head that makes it impossible for him to hurt living things; he can only unleash his bloodlust upon his own kind. In Season One of Btvs – Giles describes vampires as hollow, as evil, as killers. Due to his chip and his love for the slayer, a good person, Spike has become a little like Marlow in Apocalypse Now – a killer stuck between the world of the living and the world of the dead. As Buffy succinctly puts it in Smashed: “Poor Spikey. Can't be a human, can't be a vampire. Where the hell do you fit in?”

Willow on the other hand is a bit like Colonel Kurtz. Kurtz is described in Apocalypse Now as an educated man, a man of poetry and music, as well as a very courageous one. Kurtz takes the greatest risks – picks the hardest and least rewarding assignments. He entered the war to do good, to exhibit his bravery, to be the hero and for his efforts got one meaningless medal after another. Instead of taking a higher military command, Kurtz takes a lower and extremely dangerous parachuting assignment with Black Ops to go into the heart of the jungle and fight evil. Willow also wants to fight evil, as she states way back in Season 3, Choices to Buffy, “I just realized that that's what I want to do. Fight evil, help people. I mean, I-I think it's worth doing. And I don't think you do it because you have to. It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in.”

In Apocalypse Now, Marlow notes how similar he is to Kurtz. They are both educated men who have become killers out of necessity. Spike and Willow also come from a similar place. They both started out as innocents, geeky, romantic students, who consider violence something best handled by the police.

Willow: Uh, this may be the dumb question, but shouldn't we call the police?… We don't have to say vampires. We, we could just say that there's a, a bad man. (Harvest, Season 1, Btvs)

SPIKE: I prefer not to think of such dark, ugly business at all. That's what the police are for. I prefer placing my energies into creating things of beauty.(Fool For Love, Season 5, Btvs).

They are also both summarily rejected by people they love and want. Spike by Cecily who tells him that he is beneath her. Willow by Xander who clearly prefers Buffy and tells her somewhat cruelly that she is just one of the guys. Both are viewed as powerless and therefore beneath Xander and Cecily’s notice. Xander and Cecily are holding out for better things. It is not until they obtain power as a witch and a vampire – that they start obtaining affection, for Spike – Drusilla and for Willow – OZ and later Tara. As has been pointed out by other posters on Cross & Stake, Tara first took an interest in Willow because of her power. Willow even tells Buffy in Wrecked, Season 6 – that Tara would never have looked at her if she hadn’t been magically inclined.

But Spike like the character Marlow in Apocalypse Now has been on this journey longer than Willow has. Willow isn’t a monster yet. Spike has been one for quite some time. He’s killed to obtain certain rewards, whether they be blood, legendary status among his kind, or the affection of his lover Drusilla. Now that he’s lost all these rewards – he’s discovered how truly meaningless they were. Drusilla’s love was in some ways hollow. The moment Angelus came back into the picture, he was dumped. He had to team up with Buffy to get her back. And the whole big bad trip also seems hollow. As he states in Becoming Part II, Season 2 Btvs: “We like to talk big. Vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' That's just tough guy talk. The truth is, I like this world…” Truth is, whatever he might say, he doesn’t really fancy ending all existence, it’s sort of hollow. This could be the reason most of his evil schemes fail, his heart just isn’t in it anymore. He has become a bit like the Marlow character in Apocalypse Now, tired, bored, lonely, wishing he could have the girl, wondering if he’s doomed.

Willow on the other hand is just beginning to get a taste of it. And Spike understands Willow. Spike sees Willow’s need to unleash her pain onto others. Her insecurity. She is a lot like him. They both react emotionally to problems and do so violently.

In Something Blue – right before Willow casts her dangerous “I will it so spell” in response to her pain when OZ , her boyfriend, leaves her, Giles, Buffy and Spike have the following discussion:
Giles: She seems to be coping better with Oz's departure, don't you think?
Buffy: She still has a way to go, but yeah — I think she's dealing.
Spike: What, are you people blind? She's hangin' on by a thread. Any ninny can see that.

Then in Tough Love after Glory has just brain-sucked poor Tara, causing her to go insane. Spike and Buffy discuss Willow’s reaction to this. Buffy is convinced that Willow won’t do anything. Spike isn’t so sure.
SPIKE: So she's not gonna do anything rash then.
BUFFY: No. I explained that there was no point.
SPIKE: (walks a little closer) Mm-hmm.
BUFFY: What?
SPIKE: You - so you're saying that a ... powerful and mightily pissed-off witch ... was plannin' on going and spillin' herself a few pints of god blood until you, what, "explained"?
BUFFY: You think she'd ... no. I told Willow it would be like suicide.
SPIKE: I'd do it. (looks down at the ground) Right person. Person I loved. (looks at Buffy) I'd do it.

Both times, Spike is right. Willow casts a dangerous spell in Something Blue and in Tough Love unleashes dark magic on Glory. She breaks open the book on “Darkest Magic”, pulls out a bag of knives, and visits her vengeance on the hell-god who hurt her friend. Willow makes it clear in this scene and the ones that follow that she is not afraid to reach into the darkest area of her soul to fight monsters.

WILLOW: Cassiel by your second star...
GLORY: Uhh. It's the lover. (walks forward) That's so cute.
WILLOW: Hold mine victim as in tar. (The air around Glory shimmers and she suddenly cannot move forward. She looks at Willow in surprise). I ... owe ... you ... pain! (Tough Love, Season 5, Bvts)

In Apocalypse Now, Marlow identifies with Kurtz’s dark ideology; it is in many ways like his own. Kurtz tells Marlow that the military is too weak, too namby-pamby, that they don’t have the guts, stamina to go the distance. The only way to fight the enemy is to become them, no, worse than them. He had lost too many men the other way. In avenging his men’s deaths – he realized the only way to win a war is to embrace the darkness; to have the guts, the courage to go where the enemy has already gone, to become the enemy’s worst nightmare. Willow certainly appears to agree with this – in The Gift, she accesses dark magic to fight Glory. In Bargaining, she kills a fawn to bring Buffy back. She believes like Kurtz does that the ends justify the means, a philosophy that Spike has also more or less taken to heart. But like Marlow, in Apocalypse Now, Spike appears to be having doubts. Is darkness worth the price – if you become a monster in the process? If you lose your soul?

Marlow’s journey to locate Kurtz takes him past an increasing array of horrible acts committed by himself and those around him. Spike is on a similar journey, and like Marlow, he is a killer traveling down it. He witnesses and conducts horrible acts ranging from emotional manipulation, thievery, dark sex, gratuitous violence, basically the darkest sides of human nature. In The INITIATIVE Spike tries to kill Willow, only to be prevented by a chip, and instead has an oddly touching conversation with her. Earlier in Lover’s Walk, he threatens to kill Willow and Xander, if Willow doesn’t cast a love spell for him, only to drop the whole idea and set them free. And in Yoko Factor, he teams up with Adam to split the Scooby Gang apart, only to switch gears and let Buffy know what he did, hinting that he spoke to her friends and that’s why they are having problems. There are countless other episodes that I could describe but this is already quite long and I think you get the idea.

Now in Season 6 – when Buffy comes to him in Wrecked, hunting her sister and Willow, because Willow is apparently addicted to magic now and visiting some dealer named Rack – Spike, still referring to himself as the big bad, states she can’t find Rack’s place because he cloaks it, you can only sense it if “you’re a big bad, a witch or a vampire.” I always found it odd, that when he and Buffy started looking for it, Spike couldn’t sense it and Willow could. Just as I find it odd this season and the end of last, the number of times Spike has expressed a desire to either be treated like a man or to become one. He has become tired of being the soulless monster.

In The Gift, when he and Buffy are selecting weapons to fight Glory, he thanks her for treating him like a man and not a monster.

SPIKE: I know you'll never love me. (Buffy pauses halfway up the stairs, turns back to look at Spike.) I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man. And that's...

Then later in Bargaining Part II – Spike burns himself picking up a cross, swearing as he does so. And later still in Once More With Feeling, he sings:“You have to go one living, So one of us is living.”

In Tabula Rasa – when he loses his memory and discovers to his horror that he is a vampire and not a superhero, he expresses a heartfelt, almost comic wish, “I must be a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of redemption. I help the hopeless. I'm a vampire with a soul.”

Then finally in Smashed – when Buffy walks away from him, refusing to discuss the kisses they’ve exchanged or acknowledge that there is anything between them, he states: “A man can change.” To which Buffy callously replies: “You're not a man. You're a thing.” One wonders if Spike forgot.

Is it any wonder he wants to become a man again, a “real boy”? He has nothing as a vampire. He is lost. And he reminds me quite a bit of Martin Sheen in the opening portion of Apocalypse Now, lying on a bed in drunken haze wondering which end is up and whether life is worth living. The slayer can’t love him – he has no soul, he is a monster. Sheen’s character Marlow doesn’t dare return home – how would they accept a killer? He’s done too much. Can a monster ever be redeemed? Can a man who has become a monster reclaim his soul? Is there a way out of the heart of darkness? Colonel Kurtz does not believe so – but Kurtz has gone further than Marlow and Spike, when we find Kurtz he is described in both the book and movie as hollow, with a bald head, soaked in sweat like an amber death’s head. His home is decorated with disemboweled corpses and heads sit on pikes on his front steps. He shows no remorse for his actions, believes they are justified and dares Marlow to kill him. His voice is hollow, dark and his face half cast in shadow. The man Kurtz was before he entered the jungle is gone.

In As You Were, Sam describes two shamans who practiced dark magic in the jungles of South America in a similar manner: “You know, back in the jungle ... we had not one, but two hard-core shamans working for us ... they were working the dark magicks, and ... got addicted. And now they're gone. Gone ... as in ... there's nothing left.” Darkness can be addictive once unleashed. Willow knows this, she has had a taste of it. But she has not yet experienced what Kurtz experienced, she has not been tested. Spike knows the danger she’s in, he like Marlow has been there, he knows how freeing a good bit of violence can be and unlike Xander in Older and Far Away supports Willow’s decision not to cast a spell to let them out of the house.

If the spoilers are true – Spike is about to go down Marlow’s path and Willow is about to follow Kurtz’s. The paths each choose are based on what each wants, what motivates them. Spike wants to reclaim his manhood, his soul, to become what he once was, to reclaim a sense of self, just as Marlow’s reason was to find himself –both wish to find the portion of themselves that they’d lost long ago in the jungle. Willow’s reasons are somewhat darker. She is still at the beginning of her journey; she hasn’t really gone into the jungle yet. Her friends have kept her out of it. She has not been truly tempted. But like Kurtz, she has the darkness inside her and like Kurtz she does believe that the ends justify the means. And like Kurtz – when pushed, she will do anything to defeat an enemy.

In the end - our choices are often dictated by what lies inside us, by our hopes and dreams and insecurities. Good and Evil/ Light and Dark are in reality separated by a razor thin edge. Marlow realizes in Apocalypse Now that he and Kurtz are two sides of the same coin, Marlow could be Kurtz and Kurtz could be Marlow, the line between the two is razor thin. Except Marlow leaves Kurtz behind in the ruins of the jungle, and escapes it intact yet impacted by what he’s seen. Marlow and Kurtz are symbolically two sides of one person, with the ability to flip either way. Spike and Willow are similarly linked – reacting often out of passion instead of thought. Spike and Willow’s destinations are also dictated by the path they choose and the reasons they choose it. The same thing is true about us. That is part of growing up, choosing a path, taking a journey and following it wherever it may lead. And some of those paths may lead into darkness, some into light and some into both. If you choose to journey into the heart of darkness to obtain justice, to defeat the enemy by becoming the enemy, then you will end up like Col. Kurtz, a monster stuck in darkness, soulless, gone. If you choose to journey into the heart of darkness to reclaim a portion of yourself, then perhaps you will exit like Marlow, intact but forever impacted by the experience. As Nietzche states:“Lest ye not do battle with monsters, lest ye become a monster yourself and when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you.”

Thank you for reading. Hope it made sense and furthers the discussion. Looking forward to your comments as always.

;-)shadowkat
[> Fascinating post as always, shadowkat. -- Ixchel, 18:42:01 04/07/02 Sun

Regarding the Yoko Factor, you believe Spike's slip with Buffy was deliberate? JMHO, I'm not sure I agree. I could perceive it as a subconscious admission or (more likely?) an inability to lie to Buffy convincingly because of some unacknowledged respect for her?

Ixchel
[> [> Re: Fascinating post as always, shadowkat. -- shadowkat, 19:33:52 04/07/02 Sun

Actually he did it because Adam pointed out how Buffy needed
to talk to Willow to get into the complex and how splitting
them up could be counter-productive...so deliberate in a not so nice way. Spike is machiavellian. But he is changing...;-)
[> [> [> True, good point. -- Ixchel, 19:54:49 04/07/02 Sun

But, did he necessarily have to reveal his machinations to divide the SG from Buffy or (by implication) his association with Adam? His "slip" that he knew Buffy and Willow were arguing seems to do this. And _after_ he had already reminded Buffy about the disks, so was that really necessary? I'm not sure.

Also, while Adam wanted Buffy to get the information from Willow, he didn't want the SG to accompany her into the Initiative. Surely Spike knew that the knowledge that he divided them would enable Buffy to regroup the SG.

Now you've made me want to watch TYF again. Again, great post.

Ixchel
[> You made me kill a tree..........I'll get back to you.....:):):) -- Rufus, 18:43:57 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Oh dear God, now there's two of us... deforestation awaits... ;-) -- OnM, 21:11:17 04/07/02 Sun

Nice work, kat. Big Apocalype Now fan here BTW, always glad to see new interpretations applied to and derived from same.
[> Oh, now I get it... Major KABOOM -- Isabel, 20:16:05 04/07/02 Sun

I've never read Heart of Darkness or seen Apocalypse Now. Thanks to your essay, I now understand Xander's dream in Restless better. I know that's not the point of your essay, but while I got that Snyder was supposed to be a bad guy in the dream, I never knew that he was supposed to be reflective of the ultimate in corrupted evil, at least in Xander's world view.

As for the rest, we shall see what we see at the end of the season (And Series). I've been trying to keep spoiler free, but I'd been accidentally spoiled already by both of those future spoilers you put in there. If you could use the phrase "Future Spoilers" in the subject line or put a sizable distance between your internal warning and a listing of the future spoilers it would be helpful. People have gotten into the habit here of using the phrase "Spoilers" to refer to past episodes, so that people who haven't seen them yet can avoid the thread.

"WARNING SPOILERS SPECULATION
(*This analysis takes into consideration the recent Spoilers about Spike and Willow, specifically the Big Bad and The Africa Trip.)"

The instant I saw the first line, my eyes had already perceived the words "Spike", "Willow", "Big Bad" and "Africa Trip." Just FYI.

I've read several of your essays in the archives in the last couple of days and in each of them you seem to be apologizing for the length of your essay. Do you post the same essay to different fora? Because this is one place where you NEVER need worry about length. If it gets to be more than a few pages in Word, maybe you should break it into pieces, but you write very readable essays. Keep it up.
[> [> Re: Oh, now I get it... Major KABOOM -- shadowkat, 06:13:12 04/08/02 Mon

My apologies - that's how I found out about them too.
Usually post these first on C&S spoiler board
and the etiquette I use is for that board - customary
when posting anything longish. It's also customary to
thank the board. Doesn't appear to be so here, but thought
better safe than sorry (can't hurt to be nice, right?*G)

Thought I'd covered it with the Warning above the
thanks...this is the first time used major spoilers.
[> [> [> Re: Oh, now I get it... Major KABOOM -- Isabel, 22:26:32 04/08/02 Mon

No biggie. I have a permanant 'grain of salt' attitude about anything spoilery anyway. I used to be quite the spoiler trollop about Buffy, but I'm trying to see if I actually enjoy the eps better if I go in in ignorance or not.
[> Re: S/W parallels - The Heart of Darkness (very long/Spoilers) -- Rufus, 20:45:30 04/07/02 Sun

In the end - our choices are often dictated by what lies inside us, by our hopes and dreams and insecurities. Good and Evil/ Light and Dark are in reality separated by a razor thin edge.

From As you Were

BUFFY
No. I'm not here for... and I'm
not gonna bust your chops about your
stupid evil scheme. That's
just you. I should've
remembered...

Yes, what lies inside of us......inside of Spike is more than just the man who once was, but also a demon who revels in chaos. As much as I hope that Spike can change on his own I also recognise that there is a demon inside of Spike that still wants out, and has been muzzled for awhile. Spike walks a thinner razor edge than anyone. He may not be the Big Bad, but he is still working without the net of a conscience and things like The Doctor incident will happen as he doesn't see things the way that most of the Scoobies would.

From Sleep Tight..ATS

ANGEL - in full-on VAMPFACE (again, let's get one shot CLOSE enough to SEE the VAMPFACE) roars and runs.

WIDER - Angel leaps through the air, flying over or past Gunn and tackling all three guys. Much mayhem ensues as Angel beats the shit out of these guys.

DURING THE FIGHT - Gunn mostly watches Angel go insane; he should hit or kick one guy and eventually get a shot off, taking out one of the demons with an arrow through the neck (hey, you're in a hurry? lose the shot through the neck;) Fred gets the girls outside, comes back in, watching in shock as Angel tears these guys apart (quite literally, at one point, pulling one of the guys' arms off.)

ANGEL
Same butcher as always, it's pig's
blood. This last batch just suddenly
seemed so much more...


GUNN
What?


ANGEL
(low)
Tasty.


GUNN
(piecing it together)
You were all hyped this morning, then
you went all Tyson on those demons,
then you kinda crashed, had another
drink and started throwin' things.


FRED
Uh huh. Just like my Aunt Viola and
her Southern Comfort.


ANGEL
Hey --
(points to self)
-- vampire. I have to drink something
red. It doesn't make a... blood-
aholic.


LORNE
Not unless someone's spiking your
drink.


I think the situation with Angel best illustrates the possible problems that could face Spike. As long as he is away from human blood, like Angel he is more manageable, but it seems with consumption of human blood, the vampire with or without a soul becomes more aggressive. Spike is doing well because he loves Buffy, the potential of her returning that love keeps him a lap dog. What happens if he manages to get more fresh human blood? He is still a demon without the constraints of a conscience/soul, he is perpetually looking into an abyss, that at any time could suck him back into being monsterous. We don't know when he will hit the limit of how much he will try to work on the side of good. If Angel could get that aggressive with some human blood in him, what would happen to a Spike who falls off the wagon? It wouldn't be an instant thing, but he could easily become a bloodaholic and end up hurting the ones he loves.
[> [> About the human blood reaction... -- Ixchel, 12:16:40 04/08/02 Mon

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me Angel's reaction had to be because it was _Connor's_ blood (I know they implied there was nothing special about it, but...). Otherwise why go to the trouble to obtain Connor's blood, when any human blood would do? Also, didn't Angel have blood in those little plastic packets in Angel (BtVS S1) when Darla says he's not eating quiche? Maybe it was pig's blood or whatever, but it seems a strange way to store it.

Spike also drank blood from those plastic packets (TYF, scene with Giles), again it _was_ probably pig's blood (I can't see Giles letting Spike keep human blood in his refrigerator). But, we saw Spike drink human blood in Crush and he didn't act differently afterwards (he seemed like himself). Also, he nicked a packet of human blood at the hospital in TWotW (and presumably drank it), but didn't seem any different later (the same episode or TG).

I guess I just think there was more to Angel's behavior than just a reaction to human blood (that Connor is different somehow). OTOH, maybe this is just another way Angel and Spike differ (like the human food thing).

Ixchel
[> [> [> Re: About the human blood reaction... -- shadowkat, 13:02:57 04/08/02 Mon

You're right. We've seen Angel and Spike drink human
blood from hospital packets.

Remember in the episode Loyalty - Lilah tells the
timeshifting demon that there is an ingredient in Connor's
blood that is important and the key. (This ingredient
is different than normal human blood.)

Angel comments on drinking human blood way back in The
Dark Age - Buffy has just caught someone robbing
the blood bank and runs into Angel who somewhat sheepishly
admits that everyone knows about delivery night.

Also Spike is seen swiping blood from the Hospital in
Weight of the World. Since he was behind the hospital blood
swiping in The Dark Age - what makes you think he doesn't
still do it? From his point of view - it's blood, some is
better than others. He can't bite people - so nicks it
from a hospital or purchases it. Willy keeps some on
hand at the bar.

I agree -I don't think they are doing a "alchole addiction"
storyline with our vamps like the old series Forever
Knight did. I think they are doing something else.
[> [> [> [> Thanks for reminding me about Willy's... -- Ixchel, 19:48:23 04/08/02 Mon

Was it Goodbye Iowa, where Spike goes into the bar and asks for the good stuff (not orangutan)? Now, he could have meant chimpanzee (genetically closer to human), but I doubt it. I would say there hasn't been any hint of human blood affecting Spike's behavior. OTOH, I think it is implied that he subsists on nonhuman blood. When he drinks it in Gone it is in a (I think butcher's) container. That's not to say he wouldn't steal human blood (as you point out) given an opportunity (like TWotW).

Maybe Angel has avoided human blood for awhile (since coming back from hell, perhaps) and drinking it without being prepared went to his head? No, that doesn't seem to work for that extreme a reaction. Well, I'm not as obsessive about AtS (I watch, but don't tape), so I guess I'll leave this to others who are more observant.

Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks for reminding me about Willy's... -- Rufus, 20:33:45 04/08/02 Mon

It took a period of time for Angel to react like he did.....with Spike I have the feeling that he has been getting by on butchers blood. You never know. But given the reaction to human blood....taste preference and the enjoyment of the kill.....I see an addicion analogy there.

Go to the script for Disharmony.


ANGEL
Harmony, there's blood in the fridge.
Why don't we go get you some...

They cross away, Wesley glaring at her.


ANGEL
(looking at Wesley)
And let everyone work.

Wesley and Cordy move back to their stations in tense silence.

ANGLE: Angel pours some blood into a mug and hands it to Harmony. She drinks and grimaces.


HARMONY
Eww. Tastes funky.


ANGEL
It's pig's blood.


HARMONY
Uck! Well, that's gonna go
straight to my hips.
(then)
How do you stand this?


ANGEL
You get used to it.


HARMONY
I mean, how do you stand everything?
Being what you are. How can you
deprive yourself of the taste... the
sensation of rich, warm, human blood
flowing into your mouth...

Angel appears to be stirred by her sensuous description.


HARMONY
Bathing your tongue... caressing your
throat, with its sweet, sticky--


GUNN (O.S.)
I'm back!

Angel snaps out of his reverie and breaks away from Harmony.


ANGEL
Me too!

What they want to make clear is that vampires don't just drink human blood out of laziness, but there are perks that go with it, taste being one of them. There are many emotions that go along with feeding, all this adds up to an Angel or Spike who is fine on the animal blood, but more dangerous on human. Human blood makes them act out more, it makes them feel drunk with power. They lose the human=friend and switch to human=dinner and a spot of torture. For these reasons, Spike is a walking time bomb, he may not go off at Buffy, but I wouldn't want to be Joe schmo on the street.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks for reminding me about Willy's... -- Isabel, 22:35:28 04/08/02 Mon

I always thought that Lilah had mixed Connor's blood in something designed to make it tastier to Angel. (Like a potion) It's not like she doesn't have access to Magic Users or anything. Plus they didn't have a lot of blood in the first place. Maybe an ounce. That's not going to go far if you think about how much blood Angel drinks in a few days.

That also gets them out of the continuity problems b/c we have seen our vamps drinking human blood and not going psycho on us before.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks for reminding me about Willy's... -- Rufus, 22:45:39 04/08/02 Mon

It would have been something that built up over time....the blood would just taste better....then he would start looking at Connor as a snack as well as a son. Without knowing what had happened the reaction is worse because he would be afraid that he was becoming evil again.....then when the others finally noticed...Angel was like a drunk on a bender. When he realized why he felt like he did, Angel was able to sort himself out. But he still had them keep Connor from him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Connor's blood -- shadowkat, 07:03:31 04/09/02 Tue

Okay you guys motivated me to find the quote from Loyalty
that discusses Connor's blood. Here it is:

Sahjhan: "I have a plan. But for it to work, I require a very rare and valuable ingredient. Getting it will be difficult, if not impossible. - I need the blood of Angel's son."

Lilah: "Got it."

Sahjhan: "Got it? What do you mean 'got it?' How'd you get it?"

Lilah: "I swiped it from his doctor's office. I don't know what good it'll do you though. Boys in the lab looked it over, said it was utterly run-of-the-mill. Completely normal."

Sahjhan: "That's because they're looking for the wrong thing."


Okay now what does Sahjhan mean when he says: they are
looking for the wrong thing? And why is Sahjhan finished
with Angel when Holtz takes Connor into the hell dimension?
What is in Connor that worries Sahjhan? I think there's
something in Connor's blood that we don't know about - something that turned on Angel. Remember Angel did have
to drink from Buffy once and didn't go wonky - it
healed him and he has had human blood before - at least
once from the hospital packets. So has Spike when he nicked
it in Weight of the World.

Also Harmony is talking about feeding not just drinking it.

Don't know feels ambiguous to me for some reason.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Harmony on blood -- leslie, 11:09:54 04/09/02 Tue

Reread Harmony's description of blood and replace the word "blood" with "chocolate." Is it so strange? Don't we, in fact, completely accept skinny young blonde girls getting orgasmic over chocolate without blinking an eye? In fact, as a young woman in America (certainly in So Cal!), you are *supposed* to talk this way about chocolate, both as an indication of your sensuality and as an indication of how much you deny yourself to maintain this gorgeous figure. Women are supposed to revel in their self-described chocoholism--it's the ultimate "cute" vice. (Me, I like lemon. Never really got this "death by chocolate" thing.)

I don't think the problem is what blood, in its chemical reaction within the vamp digestive system, does to a vampire, so much as what vampires will do to get something that tastes good. I find it an interesting comment on the difference between Angel and Spike that Angel just drinks the damn pig's blood and denies himself the sensual pleasure of eating, while Spike spikes his nonhuman blood so that it tastes good in another way. Thus was gourmet cuisine born.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Harmony on blood -- shadowkat, 12:32:12 04/09/02 Tue

Wow - you hit the nail on the head right there.
It's not unlike the meat eater who refuses to become
a vegetarian - soy just doesn't replace meat.

To look at it another way: Some people eat to live, some
live to eat. Some get senusous pleasure out of things, like
eating, the feel of nice fabric, chocolat.

Angel - is very much like a monk in the sense that he denies
himself certain sensuous pleasures.

Spike - on the other hand isn't denying himself the pleasures completely

Hmmmm....must think about this more.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Angel and pleasure -- Masq, 13:27:48 04/09/02 Tue

Angel doesn't deny himself pleasure in all things. Sure, he's a little wary about blood and beautiful women, but what does he need that big hotel for? He likes his space. And he indulges himself a little in the clothes department and with the weapons, too. And he's always appreciated fine antiques.

It's just a matter of what your pleasure priorities are.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel and pleasure -- leslie, 14:01:27 04/09/02 Tue

Well, there are things that give Angel pleasure, but his pleasures tend to be intellectual and emotional, as opposed to Spike, who is a pure sensualist, experiencing the world primarily physically. Even as a human, Spike liked words for their sound (the eternal "effulgent") rather than their sense. Angel, in turn, when evil, likes to torture people to play with their minds, to gain a sense of power. He likes how it feels emotionally and mentally; Spike likes how things feel physically; he gets suicidal when he, literally, can't touch things (both when confined to the wheelchair--paralyzed-- and newly chipped). Basically, Angel's pleasures are Apollonian, Spike's are Dionysian (which is probably why we see him drinking alcohol so much).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good comparison! -- ponygirl, 14:22:52 04/09/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think I'm with you on this one, shadowkat. -- Ixchel, 13:56:50 04/09/02 Tue

It seems like there's more there than just human blood's affect on a vampire. Of course, this is JMHO.

I agree about his behavior after feeding on Buffy (and you'd think Slayer blood would be even more of a rush than regular human). Of course, he was recovering from poisoning...

No, I agree it's ambiguous.

Ixchel
[> [> [> Re: About the human blood reaction... -- Rufus, 13:07:36 04/08/02 Mon

They seem to go with the analogy of alcoholism in relation to the drinking of human blood. There is a taste preference. Also in Sleep Tight it was clear that Angel became less in control of himself when he had consummed Connors blood, he drank more and started making comments one would attribute to a drunk (think comment about nuns). The fact it was Connors blood was to make Angel see Connor, specifically Connor as food. It's clear that if a vampire seems stronger and more violent when consuming human blood then you wouldn't want to be around a vampire who has had his harmless supply of blood spiked with human blood. They were hoping he would do something stupid before he figured out he had been tricked.

As for Spike. He seems to be existing on pigs blood at the moment. He can be violent, but not out of control. He may prefer human blood but he is settling for a substitue. He may be finding it unsatisfactory, hence all the added spices and Wheetabix.
[> [> [> [> There would definitely seem to be a preference... -- Ixchel, 21:12:23 04/08/02 Mon

As I said to shadowkat above, I thought maybe Angel has not consumed human blood for awhile (maybe since returning from hell S3, unless Slayer blood counts as human blood - it would seem to be different as it cured him) and so it went to his head? But then, the reaction seemed more extreme than that would explain. And was he stronger and more violent due to the blood or less inhibited (showing more vampireness than usual) due to the blood (drunk)? If Slayer blood would count as human blood, his behavior in G2 didn't seem drunken. He was upset, but not out of control. OTOH, knowing he had consumed human blood (as opposed to not knowing) would make a difference, but that much of one? Maybe I should leave this to those more knowledgeable about AtS (I watch faithfully, but don't tape it).

Regarding Spike, I thought the adding spices, etc. was just one of his quirks (like eating human food), though making nonhuman blood more palatable would appeal to him (as you say). As to a reaction to human blood, he really hasn't shown one (Crush, TWotW).

That (spices) reminds me of that funny bit in AtS (was it S1?) where Cordelia puts cinnamon in Angel's blood. Is it just me, or does that seem far more vile than just drinking blood alone?

Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [> Re: There would definitely seem to be a preference... -- Rufus, 22:30:24 04/08/02 Mon

That (spices) reminds me of that funny bit in AtS (was it S1?) where Cordelia puts cinnamon in Angel's blood. Is it just me, or does that seem far more vile than just drinking blood alone?

Ewwwww....that is a yes...a waste of cinnamon....:):):)

I also think that because Angel didn't know that his blood was spiked he let down his guard more....he did mention that Connor had started to smell like food...but he didn't tell anyone until he acted out so violently.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Poor Angel, he probably thought it was just his... -- Ixchel, 23:26:06 04/08/02 Mon

Demonic nature working on him. And maybe he was too ashamed and disturbed to say anything?

BTW, if you like cinnamon, I recommend spiking chocolate-chocolate chip cookies with cinnamon. No bad effects, in fact give me a cookie and I'm very pleasant.

Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ah your secret vice........naughty you.........;) -- Rufus, 23:47:25 04/08/02 Mon

Now everyone will read your post to find out what your vice is...:):):)

Demonic nature working on him. And maybe he was too ashamed and disturbed to say anything?

Yes, and like an addict on a bender there is pleasure involved making it less likely that the truth will come out before some disaster has hit. Angel was lucky he wigged out in front of the gang.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Vice? Me? "I'm very seldom naughty." ;) -- Ixchel, 12:12:18 04/09/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> chocolate and cinnamon -- leslie, 11:16:15 04/09/02 Tue

Isn't chocolate and cinammon Mexican chocolate? Me, I put cardamom in my brownies. Anything is better with cardamom.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I believe you're right about Mexican chocolate... -- Ixchel, 12:33:05 04/09/02 Tue

I think originally the Aztecs drank bitter chocolate as an aphrodisiac and (IIRC) only men were allowed to partake. Perhaps it was considered too potent for women? Oh, I can refer this back to our topic of vampires and blood! Human blood is too potent for vampires? No, that didn't work did it? Oh well.

Cardamom, that's interesting. I'll have to try that.

Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> and by the way -- leslie, 11:18:36 04/09/02 Tue

... this bend to the thread completely reinforces what I just wrote above about blood and chocolate.
[> [> [> What is it about Connor's blood........ -- Rufus, 20:36:52 04/08/02 Mon

Have you noticed the vampire sense of smell? Give Angel even a tiny bit of blood and then expose him to the source of that blood and he will recognise the source as food as surely as he could smell the bleach blonde Wesley had been with.
[> [> [> [> Good point, and smell is very closely linked with memory... -- Ixchel, 21:37:19 04/08/02 Mon

In the brain. And since taste is actually mostly about smell, I can see where drinking human blood would bring back exciting (for the vampire) predatory memories.

Ixchel
[> shadowkat, you reign. Excellent essay. -- Forsaken, 21:23:14 04/07/02 Sun

[> Great, again. Your next assignment . . . -- Anne, 05:30:47 04/08/02 Mon

Any thoughts about Xander's "Heart of Darkness" parallels, given that it's his dream? You may have already done a post on that; if so and I can link to it anywhere, let me know.

One of my favorite lines in all six seasons of Buffy is Snyder to Xander:

"You're neither. You're a whipping boy, raised by mongrels and set on a sacrificial stone"

For some reason that line sends chills up and down my spine, and I don't really know why. I think it must mean something beyond the obvious reference to his upbringing, but I've never been able to figure out what.
[> [> Re: Great, again. Your next assignment . . . -- shadowkat, 06:22:07 04/08/02 Mon

I did one on Xander as stuck in his father's basement...no it's not posted anywhere - geeze I really need to get these
published or put somewhere more permanent - don't I? I've
written twelve now and appear to have a fan following
on two boards. Maybe I'll revise it. I think the line refers to his parents
and the wedding in some ways. Xander's dream has him constantly running from things, "gotta keep moving on",
"always moving", "all about the journey" and yet he is
literally stuck in place - he keeps circling back to
parents basement - looking up the stairs to where his
parents reside and says over and over: "That's not the
way out". And yet apparently it is.

It is one of my favorite lines too - not quite sure who it
refers to. Some have pointed to Spike - due to the cruxifixion pose in Gile's dream and some have referred
to Buffy. I still think it probably refers to Xander - because his parents are mongrels in Xander's mind and
in Xander's mind he is on a sacrifical stone about to
be devored by whatever comes along - unless he keeps moving.


Thanks
[> [> [> Shadowcat you're the coolest! and about Xander -- ponygirl, 09:30:11 04/08/02 Mon

Some day, Shadowcat when this season is done you must do a Grand Unified Essay of Everything, you have a wonderful way of summarizing and pulling together so many disparate threads.

Anyhoo, Xander's dream in Restless always hit me the hardest. The amount of self-hatred it revealed about himself and his constant struggle to escape the place he always ends up coming back to... no matter how cranky Xander can make me at times, I always feel bad for him, because his opinion of himself is always going to be lower than anyone else's. So much of Xander's dream seems to be about his parents -- he leaves behind the promised comfort of the seductive mother-figure (Joyce)and then is continually rejected by father figures, first Giles choosing Spike over Xander, then Snyder, who as Kurtz in the dream represents authority, and then finally his own father who attacks without even being in the First Slayer guise. Snyder's words, I see, as coming both from Xander and from his own father, if it is prophetic we certainly don't know, but it certainly seems to be what Xander sees as his own fate.
[> [> [> [> Re: Shadowcat you're the coolest! and about Xander -- shadowkat, 12:26:43 04/08/02 Mon

Thanks! I agree...and thank you for reminding me about
Xander in that way. While I was looking for quotes for my
last essay, I found myself getting annoyed at Xander.
I really wanted to slap him ;-) Some of his comments are
incredibly cruel.

That said - these comments are a sign of insecurity. He insults others and makes fun of himself to protect himself
from the world and possibly his own self-hatred. He hasn't
really accomplished any of his dreams, he's settled. Just
like his father did. And I think he's feeling a little
bitter and stuck at the moment. Will definitely have to revisit this one.

About a Grand Unified Season Summary? Don't know...will think on it. ;-)
[> [> [> Re: Great, again. Your next assignment . . . -- Alvin, 13:17:17 04/08/02 Mon

I don't know if it ties in, but in regards to Xander's comments about "gotta keep moving", I always thought it odd that his plans for after highschool were to hop in a car and drive around the country, but ended back in Sunnydale with his only accomplishment being watching a movie about the Grand Canyon.
[> Major end of season spoilers in above post! -- shadowkat, 06:09:27 04/08/02 Mon

[> Re: S/W parallels - The Heart of Darkness (very long/Spoilers) -- Rufus, 20:55:42 04/08/02 Mon

Marlow’s journey to locate Kurtz takes him past an increasing array of horrible acts committed by himself and those around him. Spike is on a similar journey, and like Marlow, he is a killer traveling down it. He witnesses and conducts horrible acts ranging from emotional manipulation, thievery, dark sex, gratuitous violence, basically the darkest sides of human nature. In The INITIATIVE Spike tries to kill Willow, only to be prevented by a chip, and instead has an oddly touching conversation with her. Earlier in Lover’s Walk, he threatens to kill Willow and Xander, if Willow doesn’t cast a love spell for him, only to drop the whole idea and set them free. And in Yoko Factor, he teams up with Adam to split the Scooby Gang apart, only to switch gears and let Buffy know what he did, hinting that he spoke to her friends and that’s why they are having problems. There are countless other episodes that I could describe but this is already quite long and I think you get the idea.

I feel that the one character that is Marlow and it's Xander. From Restless Shooting Script......

INT. KURTZ'S SLEEPING QUARTERS - NIGHT

It's very dark. A fire burning in the background provides the only real illumination. A man lies on a cot in an alcove, almost entirely in blackness. Xander is led by an Initiative soldier with a rifle. He makes Xander get on his knees before the alcove, then retires into the background.

If any of this seems familiar, it's because you've watched Apocalypse Now way too many times. If you haven't, you should -- as much as possible, this scene should resemble the first meeting between Willard and Kurtz.

And though he will remain in darkness for a portion of the scene, and only be revealed in glimpses, it will be clear to some the moment he speaks that our "Kurtz" is PRINCIPAL SNYDER. He doesn't move, just lies there, his voice finally coming from the darkness:


SNYDER
Where you from, Harris?


XANDER
Well, the basement, mostly.


SNYDER
Were you born there?


XANDER
Possibly.

Snyder sits up, face still mostly in darkness.


SNYDER
I walked by your guidance counselor's
office one time, a bunch of you were
sitting there, waiting to be…
shepherded, to be guided. You and
the other problems, glassy-eyed,
slack-jawed, I remember it smelled
like dead flowers. Like decay, and
it hit me, yes, that's what it is;
the hope of our nation's future is a
bunch of mulch.


XANDER
You know, I never got the chance to
tell you how glad I was you were
eaten by a snake.

Snyder takes a shallow wooden bowl, dribbles water on the dome of his head as he continues.


SNYDER
Where are you heading?


XANDER
Well, I'm supposed to meet Tara and
Willow… and possibly Buffy's mom…


SNYDER
Do you know why they sent you here?


XANDER
Not 'sent' so much as 'manhandled',
but… no.


SNYDER
Your time is running out.


XANDER
No, I'm in my prime. This is
primetime.

Snyder runs his hand over his head, slowly. Still looking down.


SNYDER
Are you a soldier?


XANDER
I'm a comfortador.

For the first time, Snyder really brings his face into the light, eyeing the boy with distant contempt.


SNYDER
You're neither. You're a whipping
boy, raised by mongrels, and set on
a sacrificial stone.


XANDER
I'm getting a cramp…

He hears something. Looks around, then rises, slowly, backs
away to find himself in...

Xander is more Marlow because he is the one who was a military man in Halloween (season two) so his inner workings would still have remnants of those military memories. Xander is the one that has gotten quietly progressively darker. Spikes journey is one that comes from a different way of thinking. He has always been the rebel, one that wouldn't have been able follow orders long enough to make it past training. Xander would.

Spikes journey is more of finding the human buried within and either totally rejecting or longing to become a "real boy". Spike didn't kill because a government trained and sponsered him to go do some wet work for them, Spike killed because he became a demon and lost contact with humanity. He became a real monster, but not a human monster. Spike doesn't care about what he has done, his only progress was to hesitate before attempting to murder that woman in the alley. Something will happen to Spike that will make him want to change for the better or worse, I see Xander in the Heart of Darkness scenario. Just my personal opinion.
[> [> Why can't it be both? -- shadowkat, 07:12:41 04/09/02 Tue

Why limit it to one character? From what I can tell all
the characters this season are taking journeys into
the heart of darkness. (Just different ones - and Spike
can be Marlow or Xander can...doesn't have to be one or
the other.)

I focused on Spike because he was taking a literal one
into a place that has been described in the novel as
the heart of darkness. I found the literal and metaphorical
comparison interesting.

I can also do it from a Xander and Buffy point of view
in which they are both making the same journey. Or a
Buffy/Willow or a Xander/Willow.

I just had already written two analyses in a row on Xander
and he was getting to me. Wanted to desperately slap him
upside the head. So decided to jump somewhere else.
Hey - why don't you do a lengthy one on Xander? That would be cool!
[> [> [> Re: Why can't it be both? -- Rufus, 14:23:03 04/09/02 Tue

Sure, it can be both, but for purposes of the show, the character of Apocalypse now have been directly linked to Xander.....I thought you may like to look at that fact and fit it into what you think Spikes journey is about. Restless is what foreshadowed what would eventually happen, or not ;)
[> [> Re: S/W parallels - The Heart of Darkness (very long/Spoilers) -- shadowkat, 07:22:02 04/10/02 Wed

Been thinking about what you said...still on the fence
about whether the show is just doing the Xander analysis
from what the spoilers said. (Sorry - the external/internal
metaphor is too hard for me to give up just yet...;-)

But that said - I can see Spike on a different journey,
more a journey like Pinnochio's or the boy in A.I. -
the story of a fake boy who goes on a journey to become
real in order to obtain love.

Also the X/W comparison for heart of darkness may work
better at least within the constraints of the book.
[> Excellent -- but one mistake -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 15:12:44 04/09/02 Tue

Rufus caught it below.

The character played by Martin Sheen in the film, the character based on Conrad's Marlow, had a different name.

Willard.
[> [> Re: Excellent -- but one mistake -- shadowkat, 07:16:01 04/10/02 Wed

Ahhh...thanks. The website that mentioned the names
messed up too. I saw the film this past summer but
having never been one for remembering names, forgot.
Thanks!
My analysis of Normal Again is up -- Masquerade, 19:51:53 04/07/02 Sun

Here

With an ooey-gooey bit on the philosophy of skepticism
[> Thanks.......love the ooey-gooies.........:):):) -- Rufus, 20:09:27 04/07/02 Sun

[> My dream has come true! -- Rob, 20:21:42 04/07/02 Sun

I've finally been quoted in a Masq Analysis! Yeah!!!

Rob :o) :o)
[> [> Good for you......love to see you happy!..:):):) -- Rufus, 20:46:41 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Hey, I remember my first time, too! ... :-) -- OnM, 21:06:26 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> Achieving quotage is a wonderful thing! Congrats! ;-) -- Solitude1056, 21:55:08 04/07/02 Sun

[> [> [> Aaww!! Thanks, guys! :o) -- Rob, 07:53:01 04/08/02 Mon

[> For the wierdest ideas on NA see....... -- lil'nel, 00:00:32 04/08/02 Mon

......this Essay/FanFic.
[> Buffy's Beverage Balking -- skeeve, 08:18:42 04/08/02 Mon

Assuming that finding reality was the goal, Buffy did have a rational choice with regard to taking the antidote. If the Sunnydale universe wasn't real, then the antidote wasn't real and any damage it did would be pure placebo effect. If the Sunnydale universe was real, then the issue of whether to take the antidote turned mostly on whether to trust Willow's chemistry Waiting for her Slayer healing powers to kick in would have relied on the reality of the Sunnydale universe.
Musings on Giles in "Surprise"... -- April, 20:11:02 04/07/02 Sun

Well, with no new Buffy episodes as of late, I've been catching up on the season 2 reruns. Maybe I'm looking too deeply into it, but doesn't there seem to occationally be a parallel inimated between Angel and Giles. I've noticed it in quite a few episodes, but the one that stands out in my mind is "Surprise". If you watch closely, Angel and Giles seem to mirror each others actions; both move to Buffy when she crashes through the wall of the Bronze, both watch Buffy as she sleeps in Giles office, etc. I suppose it isn't that unusual, they being the two important male figures in Buffy's life, though...
Now, I could be really jumping off the ship here, but also in that particular episode, it seems that the writer/director are trying to make it seem as though Giles possibly has romantic-type feelings for Buffy. Obviously, she's with Angel and he's with Jenny, they's never make anything like that cannon, but I can't help wondering with a few scenes. For instance, after Buffy crashed into the Bronze, both Angel and Giles approach her:

Buffy: What's going on?
Giles:(a bit lamely)Surprise party.
Buffy:You guys did all this for me?
(turns from Giles to Angel) You are so sweet!

The scene had that vibe of 'Girlfriend, boyfriend, and guy with the hots for girlfriend', for lack of a more eloquent description.
Also, Giles and Jenny have a conversation after buffy and Xander leave the cafeteria that was cut from the script later.

(Calendar and Giles talk about Buffy prophetic dreams)

GILES: Precisely. It's not unheard of for the
Slayer to start having prophetic dreams
and visions as she approaches adulthood-
JENNY: Adulthood? Buffy's seventeen tomorrow,
Giles. Don't rush her.
GILES: I'm not the one rushing her. While
I'm loathe to say it, the fact is -
the Slayer rarely lives into her
mid-twenties. It follows that she'd
exhibit signs of maturity early on.
Her whole life-cycle is accelerated.
JENNY: Still, you should be careful about
treating her like a grown-up. Like -
this thing with Angel. Have you
even talked to her about it?
GILES: I - I suppose I try not to pry.
JENNY: Maybe you should, a little. The
way she talks - it's clear she has
intense feelings for him
GILES: Well, yes. They're friends-
JENNY: They're more than friends and you know it.

A beat as this sinks in.

GILES: I'm not her father, Jenny.

I suppose Giles concern for Buffy could be interpreted as just a fatherly love, depending on your perspective. However, it seems noteworthy that he doesn't see her as a child and that he seems rather uncomfortable with the topic of her and Angel being together. Also, it's odd that they would be hinting at fatherly love when they make such a blatant point that Giles isn't her father. Obviously, by the airing of "Helpless", any romantic feelings between Buffy and Giles are off the drawing board, but one can't help wondering if they ever considered it at one time.
[> Said it before; I'll say it again: EWWWWWWWWWW!!! -- Apophis, 21:28:09 04/07/02 Sun

[> Re: Musings on Giles in "Surprise"... -- Corwin of Amber, 23:03:28 04/07/02 Sun

Amen to what Apophis just said above me. More so than any other relationship on BTVS, the one between Buffy and Giles is familial. All right, they're not blood related, but for all intents and purposes, Giles is Buffy's father. He's been there for her as much as a lot of father figures are for young women are today. And...

Ewwww....
[> Re: Musings on Giles in "Surprise"... -- April, 23:39:18 04/07/02 Sun

I didn't intend to come off as a supporter of this particular relationship; I'm pretty much neutral as to relationships. Though, kind of agreeing with you guys on the ick factor. Although, I'd have to say that they don't really begin to emphasize the familial bond until season 3 and more subtly season 2. I was just curious as to if that idea was ever thrown onto the table when the ME staff was brainstorming ideas for season 2. Just looking at it from an impartial perspective...
[> Re: Giles' Relationship with Buffy -- Robert, 07:08:07 04/08/02 Mon

>> "it seems that the writer/director are trying to make it seem as though Giles possibly has romantic-type feelings for Buffy."

I would like to argue against any romantic feelings. My most direct evidence is "Band Candy". If Giles had any lustings for Buffy, I would have expected him to act on them while under the influence of the candy. Instead he boinked her mother ... twice. This suggests that he is more interested in being Buffy's father.

>> "Also, it's odd that they would be hinting at fatherly love when they make such a blatant point that Giles isn't her father."

Just because Giles is not in fact Buffy's father does not exclude the possibility that Giles could love Buffy as a father would. I believe that for 6-1/2 seasons, Giles has amply demonstrated fatherly love to Buffy, especially given that Buffy's natural father took a permanent vacation from his responsibilities.

>> "GILES: I'm not her father, Jenny."

I believe you misinterpreted this statement. Giles is not denying his fatherly feelings for Buffy, merely the responsibility of being Buffy's father. It is improper for him to tell Buffy who she can date and who she can't. Besides, at this point in Buffy's life, her natural father still occasionally visits her.

On the other hand, it doesn't stop Giles (as watcher) from managing every other aspect of her life.
My 2 cents on the chat -- Masq, 21:22:05 04/07/02 Sun

I think the chat room has been a wonderful addition to our board, a place to get to know each other better, and I want to thank Liquidram for hosting it up until now. I think there is still a place on our board for a non-spoiler chat room.

I have Liq's code for the chat room now, and if anyone wants it, or wants to create a different type of chat for the board, I will be happy to link to it at the top of the page. I'm just a little too busy to personally manage the chat room myself. Email me if you want to be our chat sponser.
[> Addendum -- Masq, 07:06:21 04/08/02 Mon

OK, in the interests of getting the chat back up and running, I've added it to the voy code.

But I'm not going to play Mom in this chat room. We enjoy (most of the time) certain standards of graciousness and civility on this board, and I hope that's how people will act in the chat as well.

Remember, having fun is always rule #1
[> [> Thanx Masq, it works for me -- Rattletrap, 08:06:18 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> Am I the only one who can't go into the java chat ? (might be a problem from my comp) -- Ete, 09:09:18 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> it's not just you, Ete -- celticross, 09:36:45 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> It's working just fine now, Ete -- vampire hunter D, 11:55:38 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> Not for me, but it's likely my comp, as I said -- Ete, 12:08:03 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> Nor me, but I think its my computer too -- JCC, 12:35:15 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> It's the exact same chat room we had before -- Masq, 13:05:49 04/08/02 Mon

Same ID, same everything, except of course a jumping off point from Existential Scoobies. I can't think of any reason it shouldn't run if you are using the same computers you used to chat with before.
[> [> [> [> [> I think it's the way of opening the link -- Ete, 13:15:12 04/08/02 Mon

I know some links that open with java script hav troubles working on my computer. (on FFN for exemple)
Could u set the link the same way it was before ?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ete, JCC, do you have trouble getting in spoiler chat as well? -- Masq, 13:52:46 04/08/02 Mon

I think that is button-activated as well.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, there too. -- Ete, 14:11:14 04/08/02 Mon

Masq - a board etiquette question for you... -- Marie, 01:13:10 04/08/02 Mon

...so, I went a bit bananas over the weekend and treated myself to a DVD player (and a digital camera, which I've no idea how to work, but that's another story!). And of course, I had to buy some DVDs, didn't I? The first one of which was AtS Season 1. Which brings me to my question. There are a couple of commentaries included, one of which is Jane Espenson's commentary on Room w/a Vu, and in said commentary she makes some interesting comments on things which have been touched on/questioned by posters on this board.

Would it be permissible to type up certain portions here? I don't know anything about copyright law, so I thought I'd ask.

(That's if anyone is even interested in reading it, of course!).

Marie
[> I'm not Masq but ...........yes please!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 01:22:51 04/08/02 Mon

Just put a spoiler warning in the subject title.
[> Great! - plus, ps to Ete -- Rahael, 02:07:26 04/08/02 Mon

I haven't bought Angel yet cos I'm trying hard to save money this year. But I would love to see a transcript of the commentary cos that's why I would buy it in the first place!

As for copyright, I worried about it myself when I posted my first transcripts of Buffy DVDs here. But I think since the commentaries are in the public domain, it is no more transgressive than transcripts of Buffy eps. Which is to say it might be illegal, but it appears to be happening none the less.

Ps: Ete - I thought your story was great. Beautifully written. And your chapter precis sound great too. I made some grammatical changes. I'd like to discuss the thing with you in live time because I'm crap at writing emails at the moment. Do you have Yahoo or AIM? I have found that Yahoo Messenger is not only easy to download and use, it is very cool indeed! Consider me a Yahoo evangelist! My screen name is Rahael22.

That goes for anyone else who wants to contact me.
[> [> I'm on icq and AIM -- Ete, 02:34:13 04/08/02 Mon

And I also sometimes use IRC but never used Yahoo before...
my AIM nick is Verteviolette (like in the e mail)
if u don't have it, tell me and i download yahoo messanger
[> [> [> I'm on AIM MsN and Yahoo -- Rufus, 03:40:35 04/08/02 Mon

Aim is: Bedstemoder29

Yahoo is: Bedstemore

MSN is: Bestamore

I haven't used MSN or Yahoo yet
[> [> Rah! you need to log onto AIM! I never see you on there! -- Sheri, 03:49:51 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> Re: Rah! you need to log onto AIM! I never see you on there! -- Rahael, 03:56:46 04/08/02 Mon

I know! Consider it activated as of now.

Well, I thought you only needed to use it for work!

But actually, I hope to catch you tonight...
[> [> [> [> No you're not ! -- Ete, 04:00:45 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> work? I'm unemployed, remember??? and I still don't see ya! -- Sheri, 04:03:12 04/08/02 Mon

[> [> I wasn't thinking of posting the whole thing... -- Marie, 04:13:41 04/08/02 Mon

... it's very long, and Rufus would have to kill too many trees! But I will transcribe some interesting comments, if Masq says it's okay to do so.

M
[> Sounds all right to me, Marie -- Masq, 06:54:22 04/08/02 Mon

Rahael posted BtVS transcripts of DVD voice-overs. We didn't get any flack for that, although I suspect no one's really paying much attention, anyway. : )

I need a DVD player!
[> [> Okay, then. Expect to see it in the next couple of days. -- Marie, 08:45:32 04/08/02 Mon

[> Re: Masq - a board etiquette question for you... -- Grant, 09:57:01 04/08/02 Mon

Although I'm certainly not a legal or copyright expert, from what I do know from studying the issue a little and reading certain treatments I'm pretty certain that it's completely legal under fair use laws. I do not think I would be crazy if I called this board an academic discussion boards, and thus we would be mostly protected by academic and scholarly fair use. To quote 17 USC 107: "the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." (emphasis added).

This doctrine has been used to allow copyright infringement on a minor scale, such as quoting from a work in a paper, to a very large scale, such as libraries. Libraries in particular show just how far academic fair use can be stretched, as they essentially completely usurp the copyright owner's right to control the distribution of his work and cost him at least a few hundred potential purchasers of his work per library. However, they are allowed because the need for repositories of information for research and scholarship purposes is deemed more important than the rights of a copyright holder. Academic fair use also protects works like the recent book of essays on BtVS and AtS that came out. Even though this book makes money off of content controlled by ME and Fox's copyrights, it is acceptable because it is scholarly in nature and does not make excessive use of the copyright material.

So as long as it is done for the purposes of scholarship and research, you can pretty much reproduce whatever you want. And I think given the general content and tenor of this board, it would be hard to argue that any transcripts and information we post here is not intended for academic purposes. Thus in my amateur non-expert opinion, you should be in the clear with copyright laws when posting these transcripts.
Happy Birthday, Emma Caulfield! -- Rob, 07:58:27 04/08/02 Mon

Xander the whipping boy (spoilers for AYW, HB) -- Anne, 09:17:38 04/08/02 Mon

This started out as a post in Shadowkat's "Heart of Darkness" thread below, but went so far afield I decided to post it separately. In reading her post, I was reminded of one of my favorite lines in all six seasons of BtVS, coming in the interchange beween Xander and Kurtz/Snyder in "Restless".

Snyder: Are you a solider?

Xander: I'm a comfortador

Snyder: You're neither. You're a whipping boy, raised by mongrels and set on a sacrificial stone.


Snyder's comments have always sent a chill down my spine, but I've never been able to analyse quite why. Although the words have an obvious meaning, it has seemed to me that there must be more to them for them to have the effect they have on me. Reading Shadowkat's essay made me think more deeply about it, and though I by no means have a complete answer, I do have some musings.

"Whipping boy" -- means not only somebody who is beaten or abused, but somebody who is beaten or abused for somebody else's transgressions. More specifically, a position in the retinue of a prince or underage king: a person who is punished in place of the royal personage, the latter being seen as too sacred and special to be beaten themselves.

Although the idea of being whipped in somebody else's stead may seem at first to carry sacrificial, Christlike connotations, I think the idea of a whipping boy is quite different. From one point of view, the sufferings in this case are in fact absolutely pointless: the king is the being who is seen as having worth; the whipping boy is inferior and therefore beating him doesn't matter. The "sacrifice" accomplishes nothing but sparing the king pain, a miscarriage of justice rather than a transformative or redemptive event.

So who is Xander the whipping boy for? His friends, given that he is the only one without superpowers and therefore the most vulnerable? Buffy, as the special, set-apart personage? Or his parents, in a sins-of-the-father kind of reference -- he is the one who is going to have to suffer for their transgressions (as is clearly the case in "Hell's Bells")?

I think the third interpretation probably makes the most sense. From one point of view the sufferings of the whipping boy are pointless, but in another way it can be said that they have the point of preserving the mythos of kinghood: to keep the symbol of absolute authority from being profaned. As much as Xander loathes his parents, he may still have difficulty in rejecting the authority of parenthood that they represent; in fact, as I understand many abused children do, he may still cling to a need to love his parents, and feels that the only way he can protect this love is to inflict his hatred for them on himself rather than on them.

"Mongrels" -- significant not just as a general derogatory term but because it refers specifically to persons who are seen as debased because they are of mixed or unknown parentage. Signifying a broken or corrupt link between generations; a breakage carried on by his father's words to him "the line stops with you". (sorry, that's a paraphrase; I don't remember the exact words). Xander's disconnection from his ancestry is also a disconnection from his progeny; it is what makes him impotent and bars him from becoming a fully productive and engaged human being.

This in turn suggests that Xander, on his journey, is not only going to have to escape from the tyranny of his parentage but also, in some positive sense, to re-root himself in some more viable source. His utter sense of rootlessness is conveyed throughout his "Restless" wanderings: as Shadowkat has pointed out he makes constant references to having to keep on moving. Just running from his heritage, however, is not enough; he will have to stop for long enough to create a heritage for himself.

Also, to the extent that it is so frequently used to refer specifically to dogs, "mongrels" connotes animalistic brutality. Compare to Xander describing his family as "monsters" in "As You Were".

The "mongrel" concept also couldn't help make me think of Sarah in Hell's Bells. The assumpion, including by the characters, is that Sarah is a bastard by another father. But given Xander's view of his own monstrous ancestry, couldn't the even deeper fear be that he himself would father a monstrous child?

It is also interesting here that Xander is, of all the Scoobies, the one most intolerant of monsters, and especially of vampires which can be seen as a kind of half-breed (mongrel) monster/human. Possibly more than any of them, possibly even Buffy, he is afraid of being a monster himself. I am one of the few people who is hopeful of a reconciliation between Xander and Spike; and if my interpretation of this speech is correct, such a reconciliation or something else of similar symbolic impact is necessary if Xander is ever going to accomplish his growing up.

Finally, "set on a sacrificial stone". As a sacrifice by whom, to what, and for what? Is it his parents who have set him on the stone? The Scoobies? Himself? And what forces are to be propitiated by the sacrifice of Xander? Perhaps Xander mistakenly takes himself as something that has to be sacrificed for Anya's ultimate happiness; and to him, the breaking off of the marriage was such a sacrifice. Perhaps the sacrifice, in his eyes, was needed to propitiate the force of anger and violence that has constituted the one tie between the mongrel generations of his family.

I still don't feel that I have gotten to the bottom of this speech, but at least I have translated it into more specific questions. If this gives anyone else any ideas, please let me know.
[> Re: Xander the whipping boy (spoilers for AYW, HB) -- tost, 10:18:37 04/08/02 Mon

I think Xander's dad says "the line ends here with us and your not going to change that" which makes me wonder about Xander's status.
The line "whipping boy" and the line "butt monkey" are also close enough to be interesting.
good post.
[> [> Great post -- Rahael, 10:27:24 04/08/02 Mon

And a further point - Xander's animalistic, brutal, mongrel like characterisation fits in with his being possessed by the spirit of the hyena all the way back in Season 1.
[> [> Re: Xander the whipping boy (spoilers for AYW, HB) -- leslie, 11:55:50 04/08/02 Mon

There's another meaning for "whipping boy," which has to do with the traditional British custom of "beating the bounds." Once a year, the entire parish would walk around the parish's perimeter, usually marked by boundary stones, and the young men and boys of the parish would be whipped at each stone. Supposedly, the pain of being beaten would literally imprint the knowledge of the boundaries into their memories, but there are also theories that there is a sacrificial aspect to this, that their blood and pain are being sacrificed to the boundary-god. (Of course, this explanation also dates from a time when every inexplicable folkloric ritual was explained as being rooted in some pagan concept of human sacrifice, so take it for what it's worth.) In any case, this version of the whipping boy seems to me to connect with an idea of Xander as the self-appointed guardian of the boundaries between human and monster.
[> [> [> "Society has rules, and borders, and an end zone" -- Anne, 12:12:11 04/08/02 Mon

Also goes perfectly with Xander's line to Anya earlier in the dream, in the ice cream truck, when she says she is thinking about going back into vengeance:

"People can't do anything they want. Society has rules, and borders, and an end zone."

Hmm. More indications that one of the things that is getting Xander into trouble nowadays is his rigidity in drawing boundaries -- he is having trouble adapting to an increasingly grey Buffyverse with black-and-white rules. And of course, this tendency of his has always been a potential trouble spot for somebody in a relationship with an ex-demon.
[> [> [> [> Re: "Society has rules, and borders, and an end zone" -- Alvin, 13:06:52 04/08/02 Mon

Something I always thought as odd in that ice-cream truck scene is he calls Anya his demon. Not his honey, his girlfriend, or the love of his life, but his demon.
[> Wow! Amazing and agree -- shadowkat, 12:54:39 04/08/02 Mon

Now you've made me kill a tree. To think my essay set off this one - that's wonderful!
You picked up on a few things I hadn't thought of - Xander
struggles with monsters, because inside him lurks one.

Going back to Jess again - the similarities between Jesse
and Xander are quite interesting. Both have a yen for
Buffy and Cordelia. Jesse even goes after Cordelia when
he becomes a vampire. Xander later dates her. Jesse is
also similar to Spike. Spike and Xander and Jesse have
been turned down by the lady of their dreams - and Spike
and JEsse obtain the lady when they become monsters. Jesse sort of gets Cordelia (albeit briefly) and Spike (gets
Buffy - also briefly or at least according to what I've
seen so far). Xander has settled, but kept the monster inside. What happens when Xander discovers Spike got
Buffy? Will he decide to unleash the monster?

I find his relationship with Spike interesting. They are quite a bit a like. Both smart alecs, both have struggled with relationships, and up til now Xander shared an affinity with Spike for the "whole Buffy obsession". I wonder if Xander identifies Spike as the monster he chooses not to be? He calls Spike on numerous occassions - loser.
Is this projection?

And in several episodes he either calls himself an animal or alludes to it - the pack (actually was possessed by one),
Phases (does the whole wolf routine). He also continuously
states how stupid he is - which I've always found ironic - he doesn't seem stupid at all to me. Actually he seems
quite bright - always with a quick retort.

Now here's the question that interests me most - is Xander's
intolerance for demons and intolerance for creatures different from himself - the result of his own struggle
with the monster inside him? Is it a classic case of projection? Prejudice is often a side-effect of envy, jealousy and self-hatred in our society. So is this
the theme they are going for? Not sure...will have to
think on it.

Sorry for the ramble - hope it made sense. Thanks again
Ann - you and the others on this board continue to inspire me!
[> [> Re: Wow! Amazing and agree -- Sophist, 13:55:02 04/08/02 Mon

Just a couple of comments.

Isn't there a good parallel to Xander finding out about B/S? I mean, of course, Willow's discovery of Xander and Cordelia kissing in the library (Innocence). Without getting into the relative merits of Cordy and Spike, we can at least see that Xander falling for Cordy is analogous to B/S in the sense of Xander's and Willow's previous feelings about Cordy. I wonder if Xander will see the irony, or learn from Willow's reaction to him.

When Xander refers to himself as not intelligent, I think he means book smarts. He was a poor student who, unlike even Oz, didn't test well. Compared to Willow, Buffy, Giles, and even Cordy, he is not "smart" in this sense. Whether he has any insight into character, like Spike, is more debatable. I would say that he did show some in the first 2-3 seasons, but that Spike has taken over that role since then.
[> [> [> interesting points -- shadowkat, 18:47:37 04/08/02 Mon

Interesting - it is ironic.

B/S have a direct corollary to X/C with Willow finding out.

I don't believe Xander is very self aware at this stage.
I think he's struggling with himself. In the first 3 seasons
he had more insight - except when it came to things he was
close too - Buffy/Angel. I think he lost some of his insight
when he started becoming more and more introspective which began to occur with the arrival of Riley more than Spike. I think Riley challenged Xander's view of himself. Here was the perfect guy - and I think Xander struggled with that, I think he's still struggling with that. Remember he considered joining the military more than once, only to have the others make fun of him - Yoko Factor, Halloween,
The episode after the I in Team where he and Buffy go down
to the Iniative. Innocence references his military knowledge. He was proud of it. When Buffy says - "he clocked
more field time" in Checkpoint - he literally grins. Yet in
Restless - we see him in the bathroom about to pee in front of a whole host of military people - clearly indicating a sense of inadequacy, he can't accomplish it - can't do that either.

So I think when he refers to lack of intelligence he's not
just talking about book smarts - I think it also goes to his
lack of self-esteem. He is getting strokes from work, but at
the same time - he is becoming defined by it and feels like he is walking in his parents footsteps.
[> A totally baseless theory -- JBone, 19:24:11 04/08/02 Mon

My theory, and I've heard others express similar thoughts on this, is that at the time of Restless, ME wasn't planning on killing off Joyce the following year. But they in fact planned on killing off Xander. And Xander was to have the Ben part, the male human hosting Glory part. It would have been Xander sacrificed to save Dawn and the world, etc. And once ME really started laying out the season knowing that Joyce would have to be written out, they came up with Plan Ben.

It's just a theory.
[> [> I'll see your totally baseless theory and raise you foundationless speculation! -- vandalia, 23:10:36 04/08/02 Mon

My take on it is Xander is the price they're going to have to pay for resurrecting Buffy in S6. He's the consequences. He willingly partook (partake?) in the planning of the resurrection, gave Willow the authority she needed to lead the other, less willing co-conspirators into the act, backed her wholeheartedly, and wanted it totally (with a brief hesitation right before the act itself). Sad through it may be, I can't think of how else to make up for a life returned than a life lost, and I sadly think it will be Xander's turn to sacrifice it all for love.
[> [> Re: A totally baseless theory: Not so.... -- Scroll, 06:13:25 04/09/02 Tue

I read in an interview with Kristen Sutherland (sp?) that Joss had actually planned for Joyce to die off in Season 5 as early on as Season 3. The actress knew she would die long before Restless was filmed. Don't know about what Xander's role is gonna be in Season 6 though...
[> [> [> Agree on Joyce ..see grad day part ii -- shadowkat, 06:53:10 04/09/02 Tue

Been holding off on saying this - but I've rewatched
that dream sequence of graduation day part II three
times and the woman on the bed in the hospital gown
is Joyce not Faith. The gown is the same bluish green
one she had in Shadow. Also the face is older. It's hard
to see - I had to rewind and pause five times. (Yep -
I'm a little obsessed, ;-) ). So they were definitely
planning on killing off Joyce.

Also in interviews with Brendon, he made clear that he
knew he was safe up through Season 6-7, because of his
contract. (Yes - I know there's a view on the board
that contracts don't mean anything - but they do. And all
the people who left - had partial contracts or asked ME
if they could be written out ahead of time due to erupting
film careers - Seth Green (had six films between Season 3-4), Eliza Dushika (faith) (also had major films) and
Marc Blucas (had several films). Brendon has hardly any
and just got married - no desire to leave there. And ASH - wanted to go back to England to be with his family.)

So I'll be shocked if they kill Xander...but you never know,
they killed Buffy. Trying to stay away from additional
spoilers - already know wayyy too much as is.
[> Re: Xander the whipping boy (spoilers for AYW, HB) -- verdantheart, 06:36:55 04/09/02 Tue

I really enjoyed reading your post. Interesting. This suggests that Xander subconsciously recognizes Spike as like himself -- a distorted mirror image, if you will, in which the monster is ascendent as the man is ascendent in Xander himself (this does not mean, of course, that Xander necessarily would be correct in his subconscious assessment). It would tend to explain Xander's almost irrational need to attack Spike: Spike represents the monsterous qualities that he needs to suppress in himself. (People often dislike most in other people the negative qualities that they themselves embody.) It also tends to explain Xander's "not gonna happen" mantra on the subject of B/S. It better not happen, or how does that reflect on Xander, given his own suppressed desires?
Has the price really been paid? -- Farstrider, 13:17:13 04/08/02 Mon

This may have already been discussed, but ...

I was re-re-watching some of the early Season 6 eps this week. I noted how Spike pointed out (ironically echoing Tara) that magic has consequences that must be paid - the stronger the magic, the higher the price.
This was in Bargaining, I believe. The next episode featured the supposed consequences of the resurrection spell: the hitchhiker demon thingy that looked like the library ghost from Ghostbusters. The Scoobies muldered out the problem and using their usual techniques, defeated the hitchhiker demon.

So, are we supposed to accept that the price has been paid and the universe has been restored to normal? I don't think so, and here's why.

Defeating the hitchhiker did not take much of a sacrifice from anyone. Sure, Buffy got tossed around a bit; sure, Xander, Anya, Tara, Willow and Buffy got a case of the wiggins, sure, they did some pretty heavy research, sure, Dawn and Anya were possessed. But, so what? These are hardly notable events for the gang.
Here's the worst part. The hitchhiker demon was defeated with magic! How can that balance the karmic distortion caused by the resurrection spell? That's like getting drunk on bloody maries the morning after a huge binge to ward off the hang over.
It's like the story about the guy who travels half the distance to his destination each day, and never gets there. (If he starts out a mile away, and travels a half mile on day one, a quarter mile on day two, etc.) Willow knocked the universe out of whack with the resurrection spell, and then knocked it out of whack even more when she solidified the demon.

So, is this meant to be a seed that will ripen in the coming weeks, or is this an oversight by the writers? Or, is the price of the spell being paid in other ways this season, via the depression and inner turmoil of the Scoobies thing?

Farstrider
[> Re: Has the price really been paid? -- Anne, 13:50:34 04/08/02 Mon

I guess I've been assuming that everything that's been happening so far this season is part of the price, and that it's not over yet.
[> Re: Has the price really been paid? -- Robert, 21:53:57 04/08/02 Mon

>> "Or, is the price of the spell being paid in other ways this season, via the depression and inner turmoil of the Scoobies thing?"

I believe this to be the case. Even more serious than the general melaise and depression is the corrosion or outright disintegration of the various relationships.

What relationship is intact this year? Dawn was never so distant last year as she has been this year. Giles is gone. Xander and Anya are a disaster (maybe literally if Anyanka reappears). Willow and Tara are still very strained. Even Spike is suffering the corrosive effects on his relationship with the gang. Buffy and Willow's relationship has remained to most intact, but even that was in grave danger for a few episodes (and it still could be in the future).

The loss of the relationships may turn out to be a terrible price to pay. Without her friends, Buffy will be no better than all her short lived predecessors. She won't even have her watcher.
[> Re: Has the price really been paid? -- Tillow, 11:06:44 04/09/02 Tue

Farstrider...

While I think this season they are definitely paying the price every day, I don't think they have really had that moment yet when they are hit over the head and they realize it. Something truly terrible, and most likely related to either Buffy's being back from the dead, Willow's use of dark magic, or Xander's inability to see shades of gray — will produce that effect. Then that moment of realization will sink in.

If it had just been a line thrown in by Spike and then echoed by Tara and Giles, ok. Maybe I could see the climax of Willow's addiction in Wrecked really being the end of that story. But remember at the end of season 5... Glory is talking to her mystical minion? She wants him to get rid of Ben for good because she is starting to feel what he feels (guilt and other human emotions).

GLORY
Help me.

HIGH PRIEST
This I cannot do. You risk terrible Magicks in opening the Portal. Nothing comes without a price. This is yours.

GLORY
Gods don't pay.

But Glory did pay and I think Willow will suffer more dire consequences than she has already and perhaps Xander, too. Really, Buffy has been the one paying the most this season. And Dawn as her shadown self.

Tillow
[> Re: Has the price really been paid? -- ravenhair, 16:36:54 04/09/02 Tue

From Bargaining:
Xander - It just feels wrong.
Tara - It is wrong. It's against all the laws of nature...

The scenes of possessed Buffy & Dawn from After Life allude to Willow's sacrifice of the deer in Bargaining. It seems the demon was angry at the SG's interference with Nature. Interesting that Buffy, an innocent party, was not exempt from the demon's wrath. The demon probably wanted to bring order back to Nature by killing Buffy. Once solidified, the demon was easily defeated; and then nothing. I believe the price is yet to come and unfortunately it will be Buffy in the most danger. The "deep molecular suntan" explanation may be true but I think the consequences of that have yet to be realized. Whether this is going to be addressed by the season finale is anyone's guess, but I don't think the writers would tackle such a cumbersome subject only to dismiss it.

Note: Sunday brunch - bloody mary - extra spicy! :)

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