April 2002 posts
Has Buffy/Angel Fooled You?
-- neaux, 05:15:22 04/01/02 Mon
Just a simple question on this April 1st. Has there ever been an episode or instance of Buffy or
Angel that steered you one way and then set you up for the fall?? Besides the ill-read prophecies of
course
I'd say Fear Itself got me!!
Anyone else?
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Re: Has Buffy/Angel Fooled You? -- Wolfie, 05:50:37 04/01/02 Mon
Lovers Walk fooled me, where Cordy fell, and got the rebar though her gut, and when they showed
the funeral at the end, I was thinking "No, you can't Kill Queen C.", and then they said that they
didn't, and I was thinking "@$#!@"
Lol
Wolfie
[> [>
Yeah, that was a dirty trick. -- CW, 06:13:54 04/01/02 Mon
Even if the point was to say even our heroes are mortal.
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Deaths in General... -- Darby, 09:04:42 04/01/02 Mon
...Right from Jesse in the first episode.
I expected Joyce to come back, and the tombstone shot at the end of The Gift was a real jaw-
dropper.
And who can forget Jenny Calendar?
And, off-topic, whatever happened to Robia Lamorte? Except for a bit part on CSI, she seems
to have dropped off the face of the earth. It's odd how being talented and attractive is a surer path to
work for actors than actresses...
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This is embarrassing, but -- Vickie, 09:42:44 04/01/02 Mon
Angel surprised me. I just wasn't thinking hard enough about the show at that point to
catch all the clues ME had thrown our way.
Cured me of that, right quick.
[>
Re: Has Buffy/Angel Fooled You? -- gds, 20:58:14 04/01/02 Mon
Part of what makes the shows so interesting is that they do catch us off guard. Good examples of this
have been given above, but the biggest suprises have been on AtS.
1. Darla pregnant
2. Angel locking the lawyers with Darla and Drusilla
3. Angel firing the rest of AI
4. (for those who remember the original Cordelia of BtVS season 1) Cordelia choosing to become a
demon so she can continue to do a low paying, low profile, high danger, high grunge job.
A/S Parellels - Rejection of Shadow
Self? -- shadowkat, 08:22:01 04/01/02 Mon
A/S parallels - Doomed Love? Unrequited? Rejection of Shadow Self?
First my heartfelt thanks to The Board for allowing these long posts. Also my thanks to everyone
who reads my posts and comments on them!
*WARNING : SPOILERS UP TO AND INCLUDING NORMAL AGAIN
(Also there is a spoiler dealing with what happens after Normal Again.)
Last night while riding home on the subway, I started thinking about an old folk story we used to
scare each other with as children: “If you go up the stairs backwards at the stroke of midnight and
look in the mirror – you will see the Devil.” As a child I took it literally. As an adult, I realized it was
a metaphor. It was our subconscious self, the dark side of our nature or our shadow. The part of us
we do not want to see, the part that we bury or repress, sometimes to our own detriment.
Remember what Drusilla once asked Spike? “Do you love my insides? The parts you can't see?” (from
Halloween, S2 Bvts) Do we love our own? Or would we prefer to reject them? Cast them aside? And
what happens when we do? They tend to explode in our face – as repressed emotions often do.
In life we are often attracted to those people who reflect our shadow self and this can become a fatal
attraction. We don’t understand the attraction. It’s visceral and it feels right, but is it? Or is the
better relationship one that takes place between two fully integrated people who do not feel defined
by whom they are with and can operate as independent units? (Yes – I too made the mistake of
reading another Marti Noxon interview and as Dru would say: “Grrr, bad dog” or ‘kat as the case
may be.)
So how do Anya and Spike fit into all this? Well, let’s talk about unrequited love or better yet, love
scorned. Because to be honest I think we’ve moved into the latter. Xander and Buffy have scorned
their shadow selves, their ex-lovers, their demon halves. And now the demons are reeling from the
impact.
Shadow selves? Anya shadows Xander – she is the female version, sarcastic, blistering comments,
often the wrong ones, and concerned about fitting in. She is also into sex, possibly more than he is.
(Side note here – sex with the shadow self can be mind-blowing.) They complement one another. But
she remains in the secondary role, Xander is in control of the relationship as Buffy notes in Into the
Woods:“Look who has Anya following him around like a lovesick puppy. Is she more than a
convenience? 'Cause that would kinda be a surprise.” Yes, I know Xander proves that he doesn’t feel
she’s just a convenience in that episode. But he does tend to control the relationship. He holds the
reigns.
Spike is in the same situation with Buffy. No scene demonstrates this better than the one in As You
Were – where she comes to him and asks if he loves her.
BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: (surprised) I love you. You know I do. (She takes a couple of steps closer.) BUFFY: Tell me
you want me.
SPIKE: (whispers) I always want you. In point of fact-
BUFFY: Shut up. (Buffy moves as if to kiss him, but instead she hooks her hand around his neck and
pulls him down onto the coffin-couch.)
Whose in control here? Who is the one making the demands? Buffy knows Spike will do anything for
her. And like Anya is Xander’s shadow self, Spike is Buffy’s – he is the male version, the dark side,
likes fighting, the killer, the protector, and worried about fitting in but somewhat accepting of the
fact that he can’t, preferring to live outside the rules as Buffy does. Buffy is a little afraid of this side
of herself. The dark side. But she controls it. She holds the reigns.
It’s ironic that Buffy and Xander have gotten involved with two characters that became demons out
of rejection. Anya and Spike have both suffered horrible blows in the rejection department and in
very gender specific ways. Let’s take a moment to look at their origins and then see how these
origins compare to Buffy and Xander.
First let’s look at how Anya became a Vengeance demon. This is explored in Triangle – the episode in
which Willow and Anya accidently unleash a murderous troll who we later learn is Anya’s ex-lover
Olaf. Here is the scene where Anya reveals how she became a vengeance demon (edited for length
and emphasis):
BUFFY: You dated a troll?
WILLOW: And we're what, surprised by this?
ANYA: Well, he wasn't a troll then! You know, he was just a big dumb guy, and ... well, you know, he
cheated on me and I made him into a troll, which by the way is... (embarrassed) how I got the ... job
as a vengeance demon.
(Quick aside – Anya shares something with Willow here. Like Anya did, Willow turns to magic to
deal with pain. It was why Anya was called 1000 years ago and why D’Hoffryn offers it to her again
at the end of Hell’s Bells. It’s also why D’Hoffryn offers it to Willow in Something Blue. The pain of
rejection can feel like a scream. But Anya is not Willow’s shadow self. No Willow is pretty dark on
her own – Willow’s shadow self has become Tara, who has become her light. Spike and Anya both
share similar traits with Willow, they even understand her, on a level the others can’t, but they
aren’t echoes of her.)
Anya ran from her rejection by inflicting pain. She did not deal with it in a mature matter. Instead
she grabbed hold of it and threw it at Olaf. And went on to do this for 1000s of years. Torturing all
sorts of men for Olaf’s sin: rejecting or scorning their significant others. It is ironic that this comes
back to haunt her in Hell’s Bell’s. This is the scene between Anya and the Demon who showed
Xander the nightmare image of his future with Anya.
DEMON: (deep demony voice) You did this. You brought this on. I've waited a long time for this,
Anyanka.
ANYA: (tearful) Who are you?
DEMON: Remember Chicago? South Side, 1914? (Anya looks blank. The demon gets annoyed. )
Stewart Burns. Philanderer! You'd think you'd remember. I remember you. But then again, you
ruined my life.
ANYA: You were a ... I punished you.
DEMON: That's right. Some hussy I'd been taking around summons you, next thing I know, I look
like this and I'm being tortured in another dimension.
Nice ironic twist: The vengeance demon becomes the victim of her own vengeance and suffers the
fate that she ran from in the first place – rejection. But how does this reflect back on Xander? Where
does he fit into the equation? Well poor Xander has suffered rejection and inflicted it. In Prophecy
Girl – Buffy rejects Xander in favor of Angel – the perfect older guy. He asks her to the dance and
she turns him down flat. Then later – when he is dating Cordy – he breaks Cordy’s heart when she
sees him cheating on her with Willow. This action is ironically what draws Anyanka to Cordy.
There’s another person who has faced this type of rejection, besides Cordy, Buffy. Twice. First with
Parker in HLOD when she saw him immediately pick up another girl and then with Riley in Into
The Woods when she saw him with the vamp trulls. But Buffy dealt with it differently than Anya –
she did not inflict pain on Riley, she was angry with him, but she did not try to hurt him. In fact
Riley might have stayed if she had.
How about Spike? In some ways, Spike has a great deal in common with Xander. He’s also has been
rejected by a woman he loved. In a manner that is almost similar to what happened to Xander in
Prophecy Girl – except that Buffy was far kinder – she did not tell Xander he was beneath her. But
unlike Xander, who with the aid of the rival he hated, saved Buffy’s life from a vampire, Spike runs
into the arms of a vampire and becomes one himself. Spike, like Anya, became a demon in direct
response to rejection. Here’s the scene from Fool For Love, (again edited for length and
emphasis)
CECILY: I'm going to ask you a very personal question and I demand an honest answer. Do you
understand? Your poetry, it's... they're... not written about me, are they?
SPIKE: Every syllable.
CECILY: Oh, God!
SPIKE: Oh, I know... it's sudden and... please, if they're no good, they're only words but... the feeling
behind them... I love you, Cecily.
CECILY: Please stop!
SPIKE: I know I'm a bad poet but I'm a good man and all I ask is that... that you try to see me-
CECILY: I do see you. That's the problem. You're nothing to me, William. You're beneath me. (She
stands and walks off, leaving Spike devastated and alone.)
(Later Spike is sitting on a bale of hay and finishing the job of destroying his poetry. He looks up at
the sound of a woman's voice to find DRUSILLA standing serenely in the dark alley with him.)
DRUSILLA: And I wonder... what possible catastrophe came crashing down from heaven and
brought this dashing stranger to tears?
SPIKE: Nothing. I wish to be alone.
DRUSILLA: Oh, I see you. A man surrounded by fools who cannot see his strength, his vision, his
glory. (She points to his heart and head in succession.) Your wealth lies here... and here. In the spirit
and... imagination. You walk in worlds the others can't begin to imagine. (Spike is riveted by her
insight into his character.)
SPIKE: Oh, yes! I mean, no. I mean... mother's expecting me.
(Drusilla opens the collar of his shirt.)
DRUSILLA: I see what you want. Something glowing and glistening. Something... effulgent. (Spike
is beside himself. Finally someone who understands him.)
There’s another difference between Xander and Spike which should be noted. Cecily doesn’t see
Spike. She can’t see past her own aristocratic nose. Cecily is a lot like Cordelia in this scene, she
cares about what everyone else thinks. And her comments to Spike are reminiscent of Cordy’s
comments to Xander at different points in Seasons 1-3. Buffy did see Xander –saw him as a friend,
one of the girls. The rejection was not of Xander himself. So maybe we should give poor
William/Spike a break? All he wanted was to be seen. To be appreciated. Which actually echoes
Buffy. Buffy throughout the first three seasons of the show is struggling with the need to be seen. In
the Homecoming episode, Season 3 – she’s worried she won’t even have a picture in the yearbook.
And her duties as slayer? They appear to go unappreciated, that is until the Prom where she actually
gets an award. Because the truth is – she is seen. Xander also has this fear – in Fear Itself – he is
afraid no one sees him, that he isn’t important. But they make it clear this isn’t so. One wonders
what would have happened to poor William if someone else had found him in that alley? Someone
other than a vampire? William reflects Buffy’s dark fears. His reaction is the negative emotional
response to those fears, just as Anya’s reaction is the negative response to Xander’s fears. When
Xander was rejected by Cordelia in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered – Xander tried to punish
her, tried to torture her, only to regret it and save her in the end. With the creation of Anya/Spike,
the writers have been able to explore two different responses to the same situation. The correct,
mature response – through Xander and Buffy and the incorrect, immature response – through
Anya/Spike.
Anya and Spike are somewhat adrift in the Buffyverse. They are fools for love. They rely on love as
the only thing worth living for – as their raison d’etre. As a result they have given the objects of their
affections way too much power. They have in a sense allowed themselves to be defined by their
significant others, causing them to be mere shadows, kept in the dark on the outskirts. In JM
Barrie’s Peter Pan – Peter is constantly chasing his shadow. The shadow doesn’t want to stay with
Peter. It wants to explore the world on its own. Have its own identity. Of course in Peter Pan – the
shadow has to stay with him, its necessary. But in BvTs – I think maybe these two characters need
to evolve past it – they need to become more than just shadows. As Buffy puts it to Sam in AYW they
need to stop defining themselves by who they are with. Buffy certainly doesn’t want to be defined by
whom she is with. Nor does Xander. Do Anya and Spike? I don’t think so.
But they’ve allowed themselves to be. Anya and Spike only feel real if they are seen. Like Spike,
Anya sees love as being seen. If she is seen, she’s not alone. She’s safe and warm. As she says in
Hell’s Bells: “..and I had seen what love could do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness. Alone was
better. And then, suddenly there was you, and ... you knew me. You saw me, and it was this ... thing.
You make me feel safe and warm. So, I get it now. I finally get love, Xander. I really do.”
Does she? What about Spike? He also wants to be seen. Wants to be noticed. Wants to be a real boy.
He’s lost his identity in Buffy – to the point that he blames her for his acts of good will. In Normal
Again – he says that the whole fantasy bit makes sense, she put the chip in his head, she made him
soft, she made him fall in love with her, she turned him into her sex slave. This echoes what he says
in CRUSH:
SPIKE: Look, I, I'm at the end of my bleeding tether. You know? I don't even know why I even
bother, you know. (points at Dru) This is your fault. You're the one to blame for all this.
DRUSILLA: Am I?
SPIKE: (shouting) Bloody right you are! If you hadn't left me for that chaos demon, I never would
have come back here! Never would have had this sodding chip in my skull! And you - (to Buffy)
wouldn't be able to touch me, because this, (pointing to Buffy, then to himself) with you, is wrong. I
know it. I'm not a complete idiot. You think I like having you in here? Destroying everything that
was me, until all that's left is you, in a dead shell. (scoffs) You say you hate it, but you won't leave.
Notice who he blames for his feelings? Drusilla and Buffy. It’s Buffy’s fault she’s in his heart. Her
fault she won’t leave. He would very much like to stop feeling the way he does – because he feels it
makes him weak and vulnerable and it’s painful. Anya on the other hand had embraced her feelings
for Xander – she liked feeling this way – as long as they were returned. When they weren’t it made
her crazy. The shadow self – reacts to pain with violence, reacts on an emotional visceral level. In
BvTs the demons are emotional creatures that often react without thought; they are impulsive,
instinctual, like animals. Carl Jung called this the animus – the unconscious/the subconscious part
of us. It’s the part that as Drusilla puts it so well “loves well but not always very wisely”. Remember
where they came from – our love’s fools ? They started as metaphors for vengeance and lust. They’ve
evolved to love’s fools. Or shadow selves of our central characters. They still view love as the source
of their own redemption. Not that either consciously wants to be redeemed. What they want is for
their love to be returned. They want to be with their other self. Unlike Peter Pan’s shadow – they
want to be sewn on. But do they really? Spike appears to actually be fighting the impulse. He states
in Smashed that he’s not the one confused, not the one who doesn’t know what he is. He does want to
be his own separate identity. Being tangled up with Buffy has twisted him in knots– to the extent
that he’s no longer sure where she ends and he begins. Here’s the scene in Smashed:
SPIKE: She thinks I'm housebroken. She forgot who she's dealing with.
WOMAN: Anything you want, please-
SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not.
(pacing back and forth) I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared) I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer. (moves closer to her) That's what I do. I kill. And, yeah, maybe it's
been a long time, but ... it's not like you forget how. (He gets up very close to the woman, who is
panting fearfully.)
SPIKE: You just ... do it. (nervously) And now I can, again, all right? So here goes. (He morphs into
vamp face. The woman screams. ) This might hurt a little. (He bends over to bite her, then flings
himself back, yelling in pain, crashes into a Dumpster. The woman runs off. ) What the hell is going
on?
Poor guy. Confused as hell. He’s supposed to be evil, right? He’s supposed to be a killer? He used to
be one. So why is he finding this so difficult? It would make things so much easy if he could just go
back to that – instead of constantly wrestling with his feelings for Buffy. She kisses him then tells
him he’s a thing. He knows he’s a thing, but she’s been treating him more and more like the man he
once was and a part of him wants that, badly. Anya’s also confused. Anya knows she’s human. She’s
a shopkeeper. She is getting married. But now Xander has pulled the rug out from under her and she
can’t figure out why. She had begun to identify too closely with his life. Now she’s wondering if her
demon existence wasn’t the better one. It was easier. You didn’t have all these messy thoughts. You
could inflict pain. What is it Spike says in Dead Things? “You always hurt the one you love?”
Yet, Spike and Anya have proven time and again that they would drop everything for Xander and
Buffy. Note the number of times they’ve jumped in to save them? Anya saves Xander in Triangle,
Something Blue, and countless other episodes. In the Gift, she literally pushes him out of the way
and is injured. Spike has done the same for Buffy – in Spiral he grabs a sword and almost loses his
fingers to stop it from slicing into her. Also in the Gift – Spike is completely devastated, of the
people standing on the ground, he appears to be the one who is the most upset by Buffy’s loss. Do
Xander and Buffy return the favor? Surprisingly yes. Xander saves Anya in Triangle and from
Xander’s pov he saves her from himself in HB. Buffy saves Spike in Tabula Rasa and it has been
argued from her pov, that she saves him from herself at the end of AYW. Interesting -both believe
they are doing the best thing for Spike and Anya by breaking it off.
Xander’s Line in Hell’s Bells: “It wasn't you. (sighs) It wasn't you I was hating. (pauses) I had these
thoughts, and ... fears before this. Maybe we just went too fast.”
And here’s Buffy’s in AYW (edited for length and emphasis): “ I do want you. (Spike looking
surprised) Being with you ... makes things ... simpler. For a little while. I'm using you. I can't love
you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish......and it's killing me. I have to be strong about this. I'm sorry
... William.”
What are they saying here? Anya and Spike just hear rejection. They hear their hopes and dreams
being crushed. Anya and Spike are reacting emotionally. But Xander and Buffy are saying – we care
about you too much to hurt you. Xander believes he will hurt Anya by marrying her. He believes he
will become his father and deride her like his father does with his mother. Remember in his
nightmare – he hit Anya with a frying pan. He is saving her from himself, but he’s not able to make
it a clean break. He still loves her. He still needs her. Anya unfortunately has no way of knowing
that. From Anya’s point of view he cast her off – because she was an ex-demon. Buffy doesn’t really
know what she feels for Spike, except that she can’t possibly love him, she can’t let him be part of her
life, and using him– is only hurting him, giving him hope where there is none, doing to him what she
once accused Xander of doing to Anya in Into the Woods. She was using his love for her own selfish
ends. She finally realized what it was doing to him and that was killing her. Spike has no way of
understanding this. It’s not a concept he can begin to understand. Spike believes she rejects him
because he is a demon not a man. He said as much long ago in the Gift: “I know I’m a monster. I
know you can never love me. But you treat me like a man.” At the end of AYW – she treats him like a
man again, something she had stopped doing. But Spike does not understand that. He is reacting
emotionally. The shadow self – the animus can only react emotionally. They can’t see the other layer.
So what will these two do? How will they react to being rejected? We may have the answer in Where
the Wild Things Are. In this episode, Xander has rejected Anya and she flees to the Bronze where
she runs into Spike:
ANYA: A year and a half ago, I could have eviscerated him with my thoughts. Now I can barely hurt
his feelings. (Sighs) Things used to be so much simpler.
SPIKE: (wistfully) You know ... you take the killing for granted. (Anya nods nostalgically.) And then
it's gone, and you're like, "I wish I'd appreciated it more." Stopped and smelled the corpses, you
know?
ANYA: Yeah. Now everything's complicated.
SPIKE: It's a terrible thing, love is. I been there myself. (Pause) It ended badly.
ANYA: Of course it did. It always does. Seen a thousand relationships. First there's the love, and sex,
and then there's nothing left but the vengeance. That's how it works.
SPIKE: You and I ... should just go do the vengeance. Both of us! You eviscerate Xander, and I'll
stake Dru. Like a project.
ANYA: I don't know. I just can't. (Sighs)You can go do Dru though.
SPIKE: (nods) Yeah. I will. (Sits still for a moment) Maybe later.
They didn’t do it then. But the stakes weren’t that high. Spike had moved past Drusilla, even if he
didn’t know it yet and Anya was not completely committed to Xander. But they did contemplate it.
They both knew what the other was feeling and they both knew what that type of power felt like.
(This may be the reason that they see right through Willow.) As for what they might do now – now
that the stakes are higher and they’ve been crushed- how’s this for a little foreshadowing. Again
from Where the Wild Things Are: Anya to get back at Xander has decided to take Spike to the frat
party and runs smack into Xander.
XANDER: Anya, this is crazy. (Anya crosses her arms, glares at him) We had a little fight. It just
means that we have to work our way through some stuff. It doesn't mean that we rebound with the
evil undead. (Spike looks offended) And what have we been doing with him anyway?
SPIKE: (grinning) Oh, who's the puffed-up manly man? All splotchy and possessive. ANYA: It's not
very convincing, is it?
SPIKE: Yeah. I see now what you said about him earlier. (Looks Xander up and down) No follow-
through. (edited for length and emphasis) You two keep scraping. I'll find the liquor. (Walks
away)
XANDER: Anya. What are you doing with him?
ANYA: (angry) We didn't have sex, if that's what you mean.
These two characters don’t know how to react to rejection. They let their emotions guide them. They
are emotional beings, impulsive, shadowy, the subconscious. They tend to do things instinctively and
often say whatever is on their minds without thinking about the consequences. Buffy and Xander are
usually the opposite. They think, they consider the alternative, they do not always leap into the fray
and they do not let their emotions always guide them. But in their dealings with Anya and Spike,
they have been careless – they have in a sense set up a sort of Fatal Attraction. They let the animus,
the shadow self in, they appeared to embrace them and now they’ve cast them aside. If the spoilers
are true – the result is bound to be more than they bargained for.
Thanks for reading this. Sorry it’s so long. Probably my longest to date. Looking forward to your
comments as always.
; -) Shadowkat
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Shadowcat you rock! -- ponygirl, 09:23:05 04/01/02 Mon
[>
Well done. -- Traveler, 09:48:50 04/01/02 Mon
[>
Oh so very good. -- Deeva, 23:05:01 04/01/02 Mon
Wonderfully done, Shadowkat! I had to print it out and wait ALL dasy to read it on the bus and the
wait was well worth it. Take a bow.
[>
Excellent comparaison ! -- Ete, 02:12:13 04/02/02 Tue
[>
Fascinating post, shadowkat. -- Ixchel, 17:43:15 04/02/02 Tue
Entropy April 1? (no spoilers) --
Gwendolayn, 10:52:25 04/01/02 Mon
Hi all,
I am a longtime lurker and you all are so on the ball that I know you will be able to tell me what's
going on with the Buffy Schedule. A certain site is listing Entropy as airing April first and includes
info about getting Leoff's wildfeed. Is this an April Fool's joke? No tv listing site lists a new ep
tonight or tomorrow, neither does the UPN site. I know this is off topic but I'm freaking out thinking
about a new ep that I won't be able to see!
Thanks for putting up with an off-topic newbie.
[>
Re: Entropy April 1? (no spoilers) -- Lilac, 11:11:51 04/01/02 Mon
I've read the wildfeed, and probably wouldn't be suspicious if it were not out on April Fool's Day
weeks before the episode is supposed to air. Most of it seems in line with the spoilers that have been
coming out lately, but the timing seems very strange. And now we have to wait weeks to find out. I
hope for fans of a certain demon that it is a prank.
[>
What's the URL? I wanna read it too -- Felipe, 11:22:55 04/01/02 Mon
[> [>
Re: What's the URL? I wanna read it too -- Lilac, 11:35:05 04/01/02 Mon
The link to the wildfeed it here Leoff
The SpoilerSlayer is showing Entropy running tonight, which seems totally wrong, so I don't know
what is up.
[> [> [>
Re: What's the URL? I wanna read it too -- verdantheart, 11:59:16 04/01/02 Mon
TV Guide has repeats through April 9 at least. I don't see any way (especially with the Internet
around) that they'd download a wildfeed this far in advance. I doubt that they'd "surprise" us with a
new episode. Why lose ratings on a new episode?
[> [> [> [>
Not to mention the fact that it's Monday today, not Tuesday -- Masq, 12:11:20 04/01/02
Mon
[>
I think that business at the end... -- cynesthesia, 12:01:49 04/01/02 Mon
with Clem might be a tip-off ;-) Though there are plenty of real spoilers. Drat I spoiled myself
again.
[> [>
I thought it was so funny -- VampRiley, 11:52:24 04/02/02 Tue
Having the Troika call Clem "sir"...really funny.
I just had to post it.
VR
[>
Re: Entropy April 1? (no spoilers) - if so the writers don't know either -- Dochawk,
18:51:22 04/01/02 Mon
From Drew Greenberg:
Otis: I’m told Entropy airs the last week of April. But who knows? It’s more fun when you have to
guess.
[>
Yes, indeedy, it was an April Fool's prank. -- Deeva, 09:45:12 04/02/02 Tue
Leoff and gang were so in on it. You can go to Leoff or to
the Spoiler Trollop board to check it out.
[> [>
Grr aargh! Seems like we've been had! -- Rob, 19:31:05 04/02/02 Tue
Sex and Horrible Misery -- LeeAnn,
14:21:27 04/01/02 Mon
The Guardian (UK)
Saturday 5th January 2002
Last year, Buffy saved the world again by jumping to her death, but the man behind the cult hit
reckons there's life yet in his ghoul-beating heroine. Dana Meltzer hears his devilish plans
"I got tired of (watching) girls get killed in horror movies," says Buffy The Vampire Slayer creator
Joss Whedon, 37, as he traces the origins of his oestrogen-fuelled TV show. Smiling, he leans forward
and whispers conspiratorially, "I thought, 'Somebody should beat the holy shit out of the
monsters'."
Mission accomplished. Whedon's cult hit brims with devilish twists and turns, packing plenty of
girl-powered punches into each hour-long episode. And season six's ambitious two-hour premiere is
no exception. Picking up where last year's finale left off, the Scooby Gang struggles to accept Buffy's
stunning decision to save her sister Dawn by sacrificing herself to the demigod Glory. But, thanks to
Willow's witchy ways, the Slayer eventually returns to Sunnydale, even though her adjustment to
life after death is a shaky one. "We went to the darkest place we could to exploit Buffy's weaknesses,"
says Whedon. "If a hero's all strength, then she's boring."
And this winter's character calamities and surprising storylines are anything but boring. As the plot
thickens, Spike reveals his true feelings for Buffy, yielding rewarding results. Plus, Dawn continues
to deal with her hellish teenage years, Tara and Willow come to terms with their rocky romance,
Giles returns to England and Anya and Xander contemplate marital bliss. As for this year's villain,
all signs point to Willow. "Her magic gets out of control," says Alyson Hannigan, 27, who plays
Buffy's powerful pal. "Things go awry and it's frightening." Sighing, she adds, "I don't want to be
bad! Nobody will like me. That's the hardest thing to get over as an actress. What if they don't like
me?"
Another turning point occurs when the characters vamp it up in a soul-baring singing and dancing
sequence. Whedon composed 11 original songs for the musical homage and even hired a professional
choreographer and vocal coach to prepare his stars for their solos. "It's amazing that I lived to tell
the tale," says Whedon, who spent six months shaping his vision into a reality. "When I tried to get
Ali's (singing) range, she threw herself on the ground in my office and went, 'No!' It was actually
kind of adorable. And Sarah (Michelle Gellar) wouldn't come up at all. Half of the cast was like,
'Whoo hoo!' and the other half was like, 'Why do you punish us?' But, after six years, they've met
every challenge I've ever thrown at them. So it's no surprise they pulled this off too."
In the end, even the most reluctant cast members were thrilled with the results , especially
Hannigan. "I begged, 'Can't Willow have laryngitis?'" she jests. "But it was beautiful. Now that I've
seen the magic they can do in an engineering studio, I'm glad I got to do it." Castmate Nicholas
Brendon, 30, who plays wisecracking Xander, shares her enthusiasm. "Anya and I are actually going
to do more singing and dancing in another episode," reveals the actor, whose duet, I'll Never Tell,
with co-star Emma Caulfield, nearly stole the show.
And, now that the musical saga is a distant memory, Whedon has vowed to start working on a BBC
spin-off series for Giles, tentatively called Ripper. "I've seen it referred to in the press as The
Watcher so there seems to be a difference of opinion," he laughs. "But I wanted to do a show that
isn't so much about kickboxing demons as it is about English history and classical ghost stories."
And Head, who returned to England last fall to reunite with his girlfriend and children, can expect
plenty of visitors. "Everyone's said, 'When do I go to England for my guest shot?'" says Whedon.
Hannigan, for one, is ready to pack her bags. "It's sad not having Tony here," says the actress of
Giles' departure. "Things don't seem right. There's definitely a change in the dynamic. And he was
the best masseur ever. There's nobody to give me good massages anymore!"
But, if the cast's upcoming schedule is any indication, she'll barely have time to miss her old friend.
In 2002, Fox Interactive will release a Buffy The Vampire Slayer Xbox game, featuring voiceovers by
Hannigan, Head, Brendon and costar James Marsters (Spike). Plus, Whedon is working on a Fox
animated series, with famed comic book artist Jeph Loeb at the helm. "I've seen preliminary artwork
and I'm just in love with it," says Whedon. "And, with the exception of Sarah, I believe that everyone
is doing their own voices. There's zero money to be made. They're just like, 'Ooh, I get to be
animated? That sounds like fun.'"
"I can't wait to see it," says Brendon of the cartoon, which will be released worldwide in 2002. "I
think it's great. It's going to be for younger kids so we're going to appeal to a broader audience. I'm
just stoked."
So is Loeb, who could barely believe his good fortune when Whedon offered him the opportunity to
head up the show. "I've never met anybody who is responsible for so much and yet so generous with
his time," says the Superman and Batman illustrator. "It's his sandbox but he'll invite anybody in to
play. He's the first one to say, 'Bring it on'." As for the cartoon's content, Loeb says, "We'll be dealing
with the first season of Buffy. It was a short season so Joss didn't get a chance to tell a lot of stories.
Buffy will get her driver's licence. She and Willow will have their first babysitting job." The show will
also be written by the live action series' scribes and drawn by animators Loeb dubs "the best in the
business."
"I often say I'm juggling five balls and they're all rolling on the ground right now," jokes Whedon of
his hectic responsibilities. "I feel like I can never get out of my panic. There's comic books, the
animated show, the BBC show? And I'm probably developing a science fiction show for Fox."
But that doesn't mean he's lost sight of the series that started it all. Buffy is, and may always be, his
first love. "These are the actors I want to be working with when I'm very, very old," says Whedon, a
former scribe for 1980s sitcom Roseanne and 1995's Oscar-nominated flick Toy Story. "I feel the
same way about my writers. It took a long time to get to the place where I am. The big surprise is
how much I still love doing this and how much the characters still inspire me."
And, for the time being, he's still looking far into the future where his characters are concerned. "My
plans every season extend a year past where I am," explains Whedon. "But I don't have a giant,
overriding plan. It's the journey of life. There are certain points I want to make about female
empowerment and the pain of growing up but, beyond that, every episode is an opportunity to
explore how I feel about the world. I only learn that day to day."
So what's Whedon's plan for the upcoming season? Grinning from ear to ear, he promises more sin
and debauchery. "We have horrible misery and sex in store for everybody," he says, emphatically.
"Horrible misery and sex. And, you know, it's not a bad combination." We couldn't agree more.
http://www.slayage.com/news/020105-buffy-guardian.html
Dawn and the Promethean Origins of the
Key (Part I) -- cjl, 16:09:33
04/01/02 Mon
Dawn and the Promethean Origins of the Key (Part I)
originally posted on the BC&S board, 3/27
I wanted to respond to Shadowkat’s marvelous posts on Buffy’s abandonment issues and her peculiar
symbiotic relationship to Dawn, but they disappeared into the archives before I had a chance to
collect my thoughts. (Wouldn’t have done me any good even if I had; the regulars on the BC&S
board pounced on the remaining conceptual scraps like a horde of demon hounds. Guess I’m getting
slow in my old age...) Anyway, Shadowkat’s posts and the responses awakened some long-dormant
thoughts about Dawn, and it has inspired the forthcoming epic ramble. I hope you’ll indulge me
(especially with the prologue below), because we’ve got a lot of territory to cover--from the dawn of
history (no pun intended) to the end of BtVS...
* * * * * * * * *
Prologue: And thus, after one thousand times one thousand years, the battle ended and the Beasts
were defeated. The Great Powers, victorious yet exhausted, once again called upon the living flame
of their immortal spirit, the Emerald Fire, and sealed the Old Ones into the dark recesses of the
Netherworld. The Beasts [Baal, Aurelius, Baphomet, Mephistopheles, Glorificus and her brothers]
vowed to stand at the gates of Hell until their moment of vengeance would arrive. And then they
were gone.
The Avatar of the Powers came before the Shaman with the Emerald Fire. The Shaman averted his
eyes, fearing he was not worthy to stand in the purity of the flame; but the Avatar smiled and bid the
Shaman to look into the heart of the Fire--and in so doing, see the fire of his own heart reflected
within.
"Our time is done," said the Avatar. "We have battled the enemy around the court of creation,
scattered the stars across the night sky, and turned the space between the stars as cold as death.
The universe is safe for our children to flourish--but there is nothing left of the home that we once
knew. It is time for us to leave."
The Shaman fell to his knees and begged the Avatar not to abandon the race of Men. "As long as
you keep the Fire," said the Avatar, "there will always be a part of us with you." The Shaman
reached out his Hand, and the Emerald Fire came to him, whispered gently into his ear, and was
bonded to his spirit. The Avatar was pleased. "There will come a day," he told the Shaman, "when
the enemy will grow strong again and all our work may yet be undone. The bond between the Hand
and the Fire must be kept holy." The Shaman cried out in confusion: how was the race of Man to
keep this covenant? How will they know when the time of crisis arrives? "You will know," said the
Avatar.
The Avatar ascended to rejoin the Great Powers, and the Shaman was alone.
* * * * * * * * *
According to Greek legend (and to quote from Bullfinch’s Mythology), "before the earth and sea and
heaven were created, all things wore one aspect, to which we gave the name Chaos...God and Nature
at last interposed, and put an end to this discord, separating earth from sea, and heaven from both."
(Taking a Buffy-centric view of the legend, right from the beginning, we had the two ultimate forces
of the Whedonverse in opposition: Chaos and Order.) After the earth was formed and the natural
landscape established, the Titans took up residence, and set about to create a custodian for the
natural wonders of the Earth. The task fell to one of the greatest of their race: Prometheus.
"Prometheus took some of this earth, and kneading it up with water made man in the image of the
gods. He gave him an upright stature, so that while all other animals turn their faces downward,
and look to the earth, he raises his to heaven, and gazes on the stars." (Very important point in
distinguishing vampires and demons from humans: Man is special to the Gods because the human
race eschews animal instinct and can look upon the face of the divine.) To ensure Man’s exalted
place on Earth, "Prometheus...went up to heaven, and lighted his torch at the chariot of the sun, and
brought down fire to man. With this gift man was more than a match for the other animals. It
enabled him to make weapons wherewith to subdue them; tools with which to cultivate the
Earth...and finally to introduce the arts and to coin money...the means of trade and commerce."
Not for nothing is Prometheus known to mythologists and poets (Milton, Tennyson) alike as the
Father of Civilization. His role is cherished all the more because of the heavy price he supposedly
paid for his generosity. (Jupiter, the all-father of the Titans, felt that fire was the exclusive property
of the Gods, and that Prometheus’ gift was too dangerous to leave in the hands of Mankind.) But
Prometheus, despite that eagle picking at his liver for all eternity, never recanted, never regretted
his actions. He knew that if Man was to do the work of the Gods on Earth, the Gods would have to
step back and let them struggle, stumble, and ultimately triumph on their own.
My excerpt from the Buffy Book of Genesis above is pretty much the story of Prometheus in Joss’
clothing. The Powers that Be acknowledged that there was now a balance in the universe between
Order and Chaos, and that continued meddling in the day-to-day workings of the universe would
upset the balance. So they passed the torch--the Emerald Fire--to the children they made from the
clay and water of the Earth, and took their leave.
The Emerald Fire, of course, eventually came to be known as The Key.
"Ah," I can hear some of the veteran posters saying, "I get it. The Shaman figure is supposed be
something like the original Watcher. The Hand symbolically represents the line of Slayers under his
tutelage. Eventually, the Hand and the Fire—in this case, Buffy and Dawn—are supposed to unite
during the Ultimate Crisis, and knock the Old Ones back into Hell." Something like that, yes. But
that’s not the whole story. There are a number of puzzling aspects to the history of the Key; and if
we extrapolate the entire back story from the events of Seasons Five and Six, maybe we can clear
those up….
Puzzling Aspect #1: It’s Always About the Blood
It was so very dramatic—Glory had Dawn tied up on the tower, and following the ancient ritual, was
about to bleed the poor kid to death in order to open the dimensional gateways. I think we all felt a
little emotional when Buffy…uh, wait a minute. I think Spike has a question. Yes, Spike?
"Y’know, I never thought about it before, but…how the bloody hell could there be an ‘ancient
sacrificial ritual’ for the Key? I mean, the sodding Key was nothing but a glob of green sunshine for
eons until the monks turned it into the Li’l Bit. I’ve heard about foresight, but not even Dru was
that good." A point for the vampire with the peroxide fetish. I wondered about that myself. Yes,
you could make a case for prophecy--but for once, I’d rather go for a simpler and much more
satisfying explanation:
"The Gift" wasn’t the first time the Key was used as a blood sacrifice.
It’s part of the Promethean legacy that Mankind abused the gift of fire and brought down the wrath
of the Gods. (The Great Flood as punishment for Man’s transgressions with fire is a common myth
in many civilizations.) So why should anything be different in the Buffyverse? Imagine that the
Shaman and his descendants slowly evolved into the rudiments of what we now know as the
Watchers Council. I find it highly unlikely that the Council, even in its formative stages, could
resist using a weapon like the Key against the demons plaguing mankind. So--since we’re still
talking about Early Man here--they must have shaped the Key into an animal sacrifice and offered it
up to the Gods in exchange for power against the Enemy. Naturally, the attempt ended in disaster.
The fabric of time and space was badly damaged and only the strongest of the mystics among the ur-
Council could prevent the dimensional barriers from shattering completely. The end result? A
bleeding wound in the time/space continuum...
Yep. The first hellmouth.
I admit, a lot of this is pure speculation, but it fits, doesn’t it? Through the ages, there must have
been more attempts, equally disastrous, creating more of those interdimensional anomalies that
Buffy and Star Trek love so much. I’m guessing a schism developed in the Council around 1100 A.D.
(the founding of the Order of Dagon), and a renegade faction took off with the Key to the eastern part
of the Roman Empire, hoping to keep it safe from further tampering. The Council, to its frustration,
lost track of their renegades and the Key, but rumors spread around Constantinople about a
mystical ball of energy with apocalyptic power. With the blessing of the Church, a legion of holy
warriors set out to find the Key and destroy it. This ancient sect scoured the Earth for centuries,
until their quest finally ended in late 2001--when Glory wiped out the last of the Knights of
Byzantium ("Spiral"/"Weight of the World").
Puzzling Aspect #2: Why Dawn?
Ever since Dawn almost literally popped into existence at the start of Season Five, Buffyphiles have
been debating the nature of her existence, her relationship to Buffy, and her ultimate purpose in the
series. But the one aspect of Dawn’s creation that seems to have baffled everyone is her humanity.
Why did the monks make her human? Since Glory apparently needed blood to shatter the
dimensional barriers, why didn’t the monks transform the Key into, say, a bicycle pump (or a
spacious, but comfortable living room sofa)? Would’ve been much easier to protect, less cleanup--and
a lot less whining.
Let’s try to analyze the monks’ line of thought. October 2000: the remnants of their order were holed
up in a lamasery somewhere in the Czech Republic, and they knew Glory was going to track them
down within days, if not minutes. Three facts weighed heavily on their minds: 1) they were all
going to die; 2) Glory was going to get the Key; and 3) the arrival of the Beast on Earth was most
likely a sign of the upcoming Ultimate Conflict or...The End of Days (cue dramatic music).
Obviously, their first and only priority was to get the Key to safety. Since they couldn’t trust the
CoW (and that’s a disturbingly common problem in this series), they decided to send the Key to
Buffy, who had already broken virtually every precedent in Slayerdom by her first resurrection, her
defeat of the Master, and her well-deserved reputation for not taking crap from the Council or
anybody else, living or dead, on this planet.
But more than that, they sent the Key to the Slayer because the Key belonged with the Slayer.
Without the Emerald Fire, the Hand is only dust and water; and without the Hand, the Emerald
Fire is without form or focus. Only the Hand and Fire, working in unison, could stop the End of
Days. And this is where the humanity part of the equation comes in. If the monks were custodians
of the Key for centuries, they must have been doing more than taking shifts guarding a glowing
green ball of sunshine. ("Two a.m., Ralph. Time for your bathroom break.") I can imagine a long
series of philosophical debates over sacred texts, interpretations of portents, and analysis of
historical events, all centering on their precious burden. They must have asked themselves, over
and over again: How could Mankind keep its covenant with the Powers that Be? What did the
Council do wrong when they wielded the Key all those times before? And how would they shape the
Key when the moment of crisis arrived?
Their answer to all of these questions was both elegant and poetic. The great gift the Powers That
Be bestowed upon Mankind was twofold: the capacity for Free Will and the freedom to use it. They
entrusted humanity with the Emerald Fire, and despite all the screw-ups along the way, they had
faith that Man would eventually learn from its mistakes and earn that trust. What greater way to
honor the first covenant, the monks must have thought, than to return the blessing. Mold the Key
into human form, infuse it with hopes, memories and dreams. Instead of endless non-existence as a
cold, lifeless tool manipulated by the Council, the Key would have Free Will, and it would decide its
own future. The risks, of course, would be great: in human form, the blood of the Key could be
spilled and open the gates to Chaos again. But the monks were sure they had the answer for the
crisis to come: Human. Sister to the Slayer. Young, so her powers would blossom at exactly the
proper moment. With the love of sisters, The Hand and the Fire would hold off Eternal Night, and
there will be a new morning.
A new Dawn.
Let’s leave it at that for now; otherwise, this thing is going to turn into a novella. Part II will explain
away more seeming plot discrepancies from Seasons Five and Six, look in at the CoW to see what
they might be up to, and my take on the whole "Dawn as the next slayer" fuss.
See you in a few days.Sç8y_
[>
When will we get part 2? -- undeadenglishpatient, 20:16:36 04/01/02 Mon
I love your post, when will you post the second installment?
[>
Add in the Champion... (Spoilers) -- Darby, 07:53:32 04/02/02 Tue
Fascinating theory. I'd like to add a minor conjecture...
We have all assumed that the reason that we were not "in attendance" at the Buffy-Angel meeting
after she was resurrected was due to the inability of ME to do crossover episodes between WB and
UPN. But why show both of the participants returning from that meeting somewhat whigged? I had
assumed in was a bit of a nose-thumbing at the network PTB, but that doesn't really make that
much sense.
Who, other than Spike, would Buffy trust with her "returned from Heaven" story? Riiight. And
could Angel find out why Prophecy Girl was back sucking oxygen? Well, not through his usual
sources, Wesley and the gang, if Buffy didn't want them to know. Did he take her directly to the
PTB, and did they give Buffy bad-but-typically-ambiguous news about her future? And Dawn's
(doubtful - Buffy's attitude toward Dawn didn't seem changed when she returned)? And Angel's,
maybe? Confirmed for Buffy that her new walk of earth would not be full of hugs and puppies?
Deadened her feelings that much more?
And when this all come to a head, will we be shown a flashback to this "lost episode"? Have they
maybe already made large pieces of the episode?
Y'know, notwithstanding the awards category, there are lots more things here that make me
go "Hmmmm..." than on the shows.
[>
I want Part Two!!! (with Glory-style whining) -- Kimberly, 08:09:14 04/02/02 Tue
I like the poetry of your BuffyGenesis. And there's a "rightness" about this theory; I suspect you're
close if not right there.
Is buffy in her right dimension? -- luvthistle1, 21:15:55 04/01/02 Mon
When Buffy jump into the dimension open by a god, "Glory "we all believe that it was a hell
dimension, but yet no one was sure. what they were sure of, if The dimensions where to Collide it
was going to be hell on earth.Suppose they did. Not a lot,but a little, like "a sunburn" When Willow
brought Buffy back, Buffy thought she was in heaven because there where no demons or vamps to
fight in her world. But it accrued to me that Buffy was either not resurrected in her right
dimension, or Willow brought back another Buffy from another dimension. Giles talks about the
ripple affect. I think everything that has been happening is because of that. Or it could be that none
of the Scoobie are in the right dimension. Because they where all present when Glory open up the
other dimension that would explain why Buffy haven't ben herself and why Giles left, Willow have
a edge, and everything is different. She or (they has been living in a alternate world . what do you
think ?
[>
Re: Is buffy in her right dimension? -- Darby, 07:15:46 04/02/02 Tue
When Buffy died, Joss specifically told an interviewer that yes, she was really dead, and no, there
would NOT be an "alternate universe Buffy" to continue the show. In the past, when he has misled
the fans, he hasn't that I know of ever outright lied about it.
[> [>
A link for the quote... -- Darby, 08:02:58 04/02/02 Tue
And some other interesting things about Joss' movie career and why we should all dislike Donald
Sutherland is here.
[> [> [>
Thank you, that's a really interesting article -- Lilac, 09:25:12 04/02/02 Tue
My husband and I were amused to find that the best line in the X-Men movie is the one of Josh's
they left in.
[>
They are in Sunnydale OZ -- undeadenglishpatient, 14:58:35 04/02/02 Tue
A bunch of us on another board are actually addressing this theory.
Here's the jist: (please excuse my poor writing ability)
End of Season 5, the portal was openned for quite a long time. All of the scoobies were shifted. A
slight molecular dimensional shift, like a cosmic sunburn. They are all in an alternate Sunnydale,
not the 'real' Sunnydale. Buffy however, jumped deeper into the portal, hence, she didn't end up
with the others. Her body did die in this 'sunburned' dimension of Sunnydale.
Willow magically brought Buffy back. So now, all the scoobies are in the same dimension. The next
step.....they need to return home.
This is where the Wizard of OZ comes into play. Dawn is Toto, the Key. She is the one to 'pull the
curtain back' and return everyone back home. However, when they return home, I believe they will
find a much darker Sunnydale than the one they left. Since the Scoobies left the 'real' Sunnydale
and have been gone for quite some time, Sunnydale will be a literal 'hell'. This will open Season
7.
If you would like to read more... please go to Joss' Stakehouse in Yahoo groups. It is a very
interesting discussion. This season has had many Wizard of Oz references and we have been
discussing them.
NUMBERS:what the meaning of 5' by 5'?
and 730? -- luvthistle1,
21:35:24 04/01/02 Mon
I have read message board post stating that the term "5 by 5 will come into to play this season.
"Five by Five" was Faith favoured catchphrase" But I never knew what it meant. So my Question is:
what do the phrase "5 by 5 mean? and how do you think it relate to this season? Also, what is "730'
?
P.S: Do you think Faith will be back this season?
[>
Re: NUMBERS:what the meaning of 5' by 5'? and 730? -- Nos, 00:05:41 04/02/02
Tue
5 by 5 is a term that means 'All is good'....A pilots expression. and 730 is two years...730 days. When
Faith said that in the dream, it was two years till Buffy died in the Gift.
[> [>
Will Faith be back? -- grifter, 07:23:44 04/02/02 Tue
Nah, don´t think so...Eliza Dushku is busy with other projects. Maybe in the next season of
Angel...
[> [>
Re: 730? and Little Miss Muffet -- Dochawk, 09:03:31 04/02/02 Tue
In an interview SMG gave earlier this year, she tells the story that when they were to film
Graduation Day, she didn't understand her dream. At that time Joss told her that 730 was the
number of days until she was to die and Little Miss Muffet was the sister who was to appear in 18
months. I speculate that Joss thought that was going to be the series finale and it wasn't until much
later that they had to develop story arcs for years 6 & 7.
And their may be good reason to believe that ED will show up at some time during season 7.
[>
Re: NUMBERS:what the meaning of 5' by 5'? and 730? -- CW, 05:24:05 04/02/02
Tue
I believe 5 by 5 is old terminology from a subjective scale for talking about radio reception. (I think
ham radio operators started using it to assure each other their transmitters were working properly.)
Five by five was the best reception meaning the other person's signal is both strong enough and clear
enough to be understood perfectly. It's also where the phrase 'loud and clear' comes from.
Five by five spread in use in the millitary to mean anything working as it should.
[>
Re: NUMBERS:what the meaning of 5' by 5'? and 730? -- Rattletrap, 08:05:54 04/02/02
Tue
Five by five is an old military term. There are two scales of 1 to 5. The first indicates signal clarity,
the second signal strength (I may have that backwards, not sure). Therefore 5x5 means essentially
"loud and clear."
[>
No Place Like Home -- undeadenglishpatient, 16:05:48 04/02/02 Tue
The 5th Episode of the 5th Season is: No Place Like Home This signifies Dawn's power as the key to
move interdimensionally. Dawn will be the key to bringing the scoobies back home....To the 'real'
Sunnydale.
Buffy/Xander chemistry *Spoilers* through
Hell's Bell's! -- Simplicity, 22:26:12 04/01/02 Mon
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say next year will be about B/X. If I may toot my own horn, I
said this year would be about C/A. . .and I was right.
I've always wondered why the writers never pursued the B/X pairing. I do think they have a
chemistry on screen. I think that it has been very carefully dealt with.
So. . .back to the topic. . .Maybe Buffy didn't pursue it because she knew she would be coming
between Willow and Xander who had a well established friendship, though Willow had a crush on
him. By the time it wouldn't hurt Willow, she was deeply involved with Angel and then with Riley.
In the meantime, Xander became involved with Anya. They seem to be just missing each other.
It seems like it would be a natural relationship for Buffy to get involved in. For one thing, Xander is
the only man who has always been there for her. Even Giles has deserted her when she needs
him.
Some people would say that Xander's interest died out after highschool. Case in point, I have two
examples from the shooting script where that is not the case. Some would say that it is not
reciprocated, there is proof of that as well.
This is from Phases. . .
XANDER
Are you okay?
Buffy sits up, severely shaken.
BUFFY
This isn't happening…
Xander drops the easel; kneels down to Buffy.
XANDER
Buffy-
He touches her on the shoulder. She immediately folds herself into his arms.
BUFFY
He's going to keep coming after me. Until…
XANDER
Don't let him get to you.
It's clear that he already has.
XANDER (cont'd)
He's not the same guy you knew.
They continue to HUG. A little too long. They pull apart a bit and look at each other.
BUFFY
Xander-
Uh-oh.
BUFFY (cont'd)
Thanks.
Xander smiles. Finally, they break. Buffy composes herself.
BUFFY (cont'd)
Well. I've got a lot to do tonight.
XANDER
Yeah.
BUFFY
I should probably go do it.
She heads out. Xander watches after her, then follows, MUMBLING and SHAKING HIS
HEAD.
XANDER
Oh, no. My life's not too complicated…
OVER THIS: MUSIC STARTS TO PLAY
This is from The Replacement. . .
XANDER (to Riley, uncomfortably)
Still, I do envy you sometimes. I mean,
for the sanity. Not that I'm still into Buffy.
Not that I ever was.
This is from Hell's Bells. . .
Buffy (re: marriage)
I hope I get as lucky as
you guys someday.
XANDER
You want to get lucky? I've still
got what? Fifteen, twenty minutes?
Any comments?
[>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry *Spoilers* through Hell's Bell's! -- Rufus, 22:47:06 04/01/02
Mon
I think to put Buffy with Xander it would have to be at the end of the series and be the guy she sticks
with, not that I'm saying it would happen at all. Any sooner it would get in the way of the Scooby
Gang. Remember he was once in love with Willow so it would be an issue to overcome.
[> [>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry *Spoilers* through Hell's Bell's! -- Cactus Watcher,
05:46:32 04/02/02 Tue
The one aspect of the character Buffy I really did not like after the first run of season one was that
she both shot down Xander and she failed to tell him that Willow was crazy about him. Either of the
above was perfectly understandable. Either she truly didn't want to go out with him, in which case,
she should have helped Willow out, or she did want to but felt she couldn't be so cruel to Willow, in
which case, she could have let him down easier. I cannot believe Buffy didn't see Xander was
interested in her, and always wondered why she didn't encourage him more to go out with Willow
before the big scene where he gets shot down. If the story ends with X and B together it makes
sense, but they will have taken a long time getting there. ;o)
[> [> [>
Xander knew about Willow's crush on him -- Sophist, 08:06:26 04/02/02 Tue
He said so in The Pack (scene where hyenaXander assaults Buffy). Buffy didn't need to say anything,
Xander was just kind of insensitive about it.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Xander knew about Willow's crush on him -- CW, 15:57:32 04/02/02 Tue
Xander knowing about it wasn't the question. The point is he wasn't paying any attention. Buffy
saying something, a. was the decent thing to do, since Willow was supposed to be her best friend; b.
would have indicated she wasn't interested in him; and c. might have convinced him to give Willow a
chance without continually whining that he wasn't with Buffy.
[> [> [> [> [>
Can't agree -- Sophist, 16:54:44 04/02/02 Tue
If I'm in high school, I don't want my best friend telling someone I have a crush on them. I'm also not
clear why that was the "decent" thing to do if Xander already knew (and Buffy knew he knew
because Xander said it to her).
Moreover, you are assuming 2 facts that are not, as far as I know, true: that Buffy actually did have
feelings for Xander but repressed them for the sake of Willow; and that Xander would have accepted
Willow once he found he couldn't have Buffy (in fact, he did no such thing, but ended up with
Cordelia).
IMHO, Buffy was very honest with Xander. She never led him on and she told him directly when he
raised the issue. There is no blame here, there just wasn't a connection.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Can't agree -- CW, 20:52:29 04/02/02 Tue
What kind of friends did you have in high school? Ones who were more who were more worried
about embarrasing you than helping you? I feel sorry for you.
Actually, I made neither of those assumptions. I did suggest that one could believe the first one from
the way Buffy was acting. I did not say it was so. I don't have to make the second assumption at all.
Yes, Xander ended up with Cordelia, and he ended up cheating on her with someone. Now gee, if I
could only remember HER name.
Let's remember the situation, Buffy shoots Xander down. Then Xander, trying for the moron of the
year award, basically asks Willow, "Hey, I can't go with Buffy. You're better than having no date at
all. Why don't you go with me?" Willow perfectly correctly tells him to forget it. Xander hasn't been
thinking about Willow and he sure isn't going to right away after that!
Has there ever been a guy in the history of the universe who kept making serious passes at a girl he
had no intention of asking out? How dense is Buffy? Now if some friend of Willow's had said to
Xander at some appropriate moment BEFORE he stuck his neck out, "Look stop hitting on me. It's
killing Willow... Er, I mean... Er, I mean... I'm with Angel, period."
Of course, there is no guarantee Xander would could catch on. There is no guarantee he'd ever have
asked Willow out, if he did. But, I don't see that doing nothing made Buffy a better friend to either
of them or even a friend at all.
[>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry *Spoilers* through Hell's Bell's! -- Diana Michelle Murray, 01:13:12
04/02/02 Tue
I've always believed that B/X would happen in the last season. Partly because at the beginning, Joss
said that Xander represented him and it makes sense that he would want his rep to end up with the
hero.
Also partly because they never have truly explored B/X's chemistry the way they have with pretty
much every other viable couple. Not even in a 'false' setting.
[>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry?Where? -- LeeAnn, 01:40:30 04/02/02 Tue
And maybe Buffy can look up her father and boink him or maybe there's a long lost brother
somewhere she could boink. That wouldn't be much more incestuous than Buffy/Xander.
If Buffy/Xander happens, if Joss decides he has to get the girl (and Joss has said Xander is him) then
I'll tape Buffy, and fast forward through everything but the Spike scenes and just wait for the series
to end.
[> [>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry?Where? -- Rufus, 02:19:49 04/02/02 Tue
Comeon LeeAnn, just as you see Buffy and Spike as the couple of the century, others have other
partners they would fancy more than Spike for her. I can imagine that many find every scene
between Buffy and Spike barf worthy and may have to ff through every love scene.
Buffy and Xander are like family, but they aren't blood relatives, so if they end up together, even if
for a night, I see nothing wrong with it. All personal preference.
[> [> [>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry?Where? -- LeeAnn, 03:13:47 04/02/02 Tue
Buffy and Xander are like family.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry?Where? -- Rufus, 03:31:07 04/02/02 Tue
But not blood family....;)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Buffy/Xander friendship -- Valkyrie, 06:29:49 04/02/02 Tue
I have a long list of reasons why I don't think Xander is the ideal mate for Buffy... however, I don't
want to get into the Ship wars. I guess the central issue for me is that by pairing Buffy/Xander
romantically, the writers would be demonstrating that the only relationship a male and female can
have is romantic. I really love the idea that Xander and Buffy are devoted platonic friends.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Buffy/Xander friendship -- Apophis, 06:46:37 04/02/02 Tue
One phrase sums up my thoughts on the B/X subject: Not in a million years. That's all I'm gonna
say. If I'm wrong, I'll take you all to DisneyWorld.
[>
I can't see it. No chemistry that comes across on screen. -- bookworm, 06:51:15 04/02/02
Tue
Xander tends to flirt with every female that crosses his path, including platonic friends who he once
had relationships with/crushes on. He flirts with Buffy, flirts with Willow, even flirts with Dawn. It
doesn't mean he should become involved with them romantically, or that the actors have the kind of
chemistry that would make them fun to watch. The idea of Buffy/Xander may well cross the writers'
minds, but I don't think it would translate well on screen. Some actors just click with each other;
others don't. I don't think Nicholas Brendon has ever had super sexual chemistry with any of the
women he's been paired with. His scenes with Anya all tended to be post-coital or comedic. He's got a
nice FRIENDSHIP chemistry going with all of his on-screen cohorts, but it's not the same
thing.
[> [>
Lots of chemistry. All fraternal/sororal -- Kimberly, 07:06:39 04/02/02 Tue
Although it wouldn't shock me if they wind up together, I don't see it as a long-haul relationship
romantically. What I would expect to see is two friends giving each other comfort, and sometimes
sex can be the most comforting of all. (In fact, if they were to get together, I can see them ending it
because there's little passion, just comfort.)
I still think of Xander's dream in Restless in which Buffy calls him "big brother". THAT's their real
relationship.
[> [> [>
That's why it gives me that EWWW! feeling. -- bookworm, 07:24:47 04/02/02 Tue
If they have comfort sex, I really hope they don't make us watch it. Maybe they can just allude to it
with a kiss and show the characters blushing in painful embarrassment on the morning after. ATS
showed Angel/Cordelia "passion" that was about as painful to watch as Buffy/Xander would be.
That's another case of a pair of characters that are great friends and lousy lovers. I think there has
to be some element of the unknown or the surprise in an on-screen couple. Xander and his two best
friends just don't have it. I'm rather glad that Anya is now Xander-free. I see more possibilities for
her without him. I thought Anya actually had more chemistry with Giles than with Xander, maybe
because it was so unexpected to see her with the father figure of the group/the man twice her age.
She was like a piece of grit in his eye, but there was a liveliness and passion in the way they argued.
If Giles hadn't left the show, I wonder if they would have eventually put Anya with Giles. I can see
Anya with Spike too, and there's been foreshadowing of that relationship. Two incredibly blunt,
hilarious characters in a room together would be fun to watch and I bet there would be a fair amount
of sexual chemistry as well. But I'd really rather see Buffy and Xander suffering alone or enjoying
platonic movie nights with relationshipless Willow than see Buffy/Xander engaging in comfort
sex.
[> [>
Re: I can't see it. No chemistry that comes across on screen. -- Slayer_Tea_Party,
10:33:55 04/02/02 Tue
I agree with bookworm on this one. There is no chemistry between X/B. Xander is WAY too
immature and not on the same level as Bufy. Besides, we already know that Buffy doesn't feel
anything for Xander.
[> [> [>
Re: I can't see it. No chemistry that comes across on screen. -- Alvin, 13:42:32 04/02/02
Tue
Actually, I've always thought Buffy did feel something for Xander because of the way she is so
enthusiastic about Xander/Anya. For instance, in Triangle, "Their love will last forever!" or in Hell's
Bells about them being the light at the end of the tunnel. I've wondered if it's a case of "doth protest
too much" and that she stresses their relationship so that she can convince herself that she's not
interested. Of course, I started rooting for Xander and Buffy to get together back in S1 so I do tend
to see any interaction between them in a favorable light.
[> [> [> [>
Re: I can't see it. No chemistry that comes across on screen. -- verdantheart, 07:17:00
04/03/02 Wed
Frankly, my "doth protest too much" response came from "Crush" (Buffy's extreme reaction covers
her own attraction -- proven this season. I emphasize: attraction, not love. Anything
more than that has yet to be established). Buffy's reaction in "Triangle" (IMHO) was a response to
her own sadness about losing Riley. She idealizes their love because of her own loneliness. This goes
for the "light at the end of the tunnel" sentiment as well. If there's hope for them, there might be
hope for her as well.
This does not mean that I don't think X/B possible. There have been rare fleeting moments of sexual
tension between the two. (Though I hope to avoid the impression that I get from Friends --
which I don't watch -- that everybody has been/will be paired with everyone else.)
[> [> [> [>
Re: I can't see it. No chemistry that comes across on screen. -- Slayer_Tea_Party,
07:37:46 04/03/02 Wed
Or maybe Buffy has set X/A as the perfect couple and something she would like to attain
herself.
[>
Re: Buffy/Xander chemistry *Spoilers* through Hell's Bell's! -- Goji3, 07:03:35 04/02/02
Tue
That'd be nice to see :) (B/Xer at heart)
And don't forget what Anya said in OMWF about Xander and Buffy in "I'll Never Tell"
"...He just hides behind his buffy/look, he's getting kinda huffy/cuz he knows that I know."
But, it'll probably happen at the end of the series or so. bringing everything full circle.
Joss stuff. -- Darby, 08:18:06 04/02/02
Tue
I just stumbled across a review of two of Joss' unproduced movie scripts and found it interesting. It's
fairly long.
Screenwritin
g: Script Review.
And does anyone else think that on the ex-show Now and Again (that's the scifi one, not the
family drama), the premise seems suspiciously similar to Afterlife?
[>
Some background and a recommendation. -- Darby, 13:18:14 04/02/02 Tue
I just rewatched Speed, knowing that Joss had a large contribution to the dialogue, and I've
been surfing today in search of an idea of just how much was his. That's how I found the site linked
to above.
An interview with the credited writer, Graham Yost, gives a couple of scenes and characters that
Joss added. Another quotes Yost as saying that the movie's dialogue was pretty much all Joss' (it's
funny, he doesn't seem to mind - it's like the Buffy writers acknowledging that all of "their"
most commented-on lines are actually Whedon contributions).
Anyway, if you get the chance, watch Speed. It's got great dialogue, including some classic
Whedonisms. Maybe someone can actually do it as a Classic Movie of the Week...
And the sites I found were here
and here. If you do a
"Control F" on "Joss," you'll find those parts where he's mentioned.
A Path To Transcendence: Buffy's
Endeavor to Love, Live, and Forgive (longish / no spoilers) -- ravenhair, 08:50:21 04/02/02
Tue
I respectively submit MY thesis, Ms.Noxon. ;)
I was struck by something I noticed in Smashed and through my fevered research was inspired to
read The Transcendentalist by Ralph Waldo Emerson. What I noticed in the episode actually
alluded to Spike’s path to redemption, which hopefully I’ll address before season’s end. However, I
thought it proper to explore first Emerson’s definition of transcendence through Buffy’s point of view
in order to better understand Spike’s path. I was not disappointed. Below is a point-by-point
illustration relating BtVS to Emerson’s lecture. Enjoy and let me know what you think!
**********
“I – this thought which is called I – is the mold into which the world is poured like melted wax. The
mold is invisible, but the world betrays the shape of the mold. You call it the power of circumstance,
but it is the power of me.” (Emerson) Buffy, The Chosen One, trained since youth to slay vampires
and taught Vampires=Bad and Humans=Good, is discovering things are vastly different from her
days in high school. Buffy’s mortal enemy is captured by the government and implanted with a
behavior modification chip. Spike begins helping the Scooby Gang, falls in love with the Slayer, and
protects Dawn even after Buffy’s death. The popular belief is that Spike does these things because of
the chip, but it is actually because of his love for Buffy and her acceptance of him that he stays on
the straight and narrow path. Does Buffy recognize this power she has over Spike? Will she be able
to influence her friends’ opinions of Spike once the truth is revealed about their relationship? Can
her influence be applied to other vampires and/or demons without outside forces (i.e. chip) coming
into play?
Emerson states “Let any thought or motive of mine be different from that they are, the difference
will transform my condition and economy.” Buffy, having to confront her feelings about Spike,
questions “Why do I feel this way? Why do I let him in?” By letting Spike into her life she acts
against everything she has fought against and believed all her life. She feels a change in herself that
is new and unfamiliar. It is fitting she makes this confession to Tara, the maturest member of the
Scooby Gang. Consider Emerson’s assessment of the transcendentalist that “looks at things as the
reverse side of the tapestry, as the other end.” This is repeated in Tara’s own words in After Life,
“It’s like I’m looking from the other side.” Tara has already reached this level of enlightenment,
demonstrated in her advice and understanding of Buffy’s sorrow.
Spike continuously challenges Buffy’s limited world of black & white, good and evil. She experiences
moments of clarity, yet reverts to old doctrine. “A materialist accepts his surroundings as they are
and does not question. The idealist looks beyond appearance into the metaphysical.” (Emerson)
Buffy addresses Spike as “William” in As You Were, acknowledging she sees more than the
dangerous facade of the vampire before her and speaks to the human within. She even participates
in civil conversation with Spike in As You Were and Normal Again, only to pull away. This, of
course, upsets the conflicted vampire who finally confronts his lover that “It’s not the darkness you’re
drawn to but the misery…let yourself live already.” Emerson gives similar advise to the idealist: “Do
not cumber yourself with fruitless pains to mend and remedy remote effects; let the soul be erect,
and all things will go well.”
Emerson points out that many intelligent people improperly withdraw from society, not wanting to
open themselves up to others because of the high standards they have set up for themselves. As
such, they become very critical even though they crave love. “Their quarrel with every man they
meet is not with his kind, but with his degree. There is not enough of him – that is the only fault.
They prolong their privilege of childhood in this wise.” (Emerson) This is strikingly obvious in
Buffy’s relationships particularly with Riley and Spike. Riley could not meet her physical strength,
didn’t have enough monster in him, to meet her needs. Spike, even with the chip and his loyalty,
lacks a soul and humanity. She rejected Riley’s explanation for going to the vampire brothel in Into
the Woods and refused to listen to Spike’s reason for keeping the demon eggs in As You Were.
Buffy has also isolated herself from her friends and family. Emerson warns this kind of extreme
isolation will often result in “forms so vivid that these for the time shall seem real, and society the
illusion.” In Normal Again, Buffy has created an ideal existence of the child whose two loving
parents want to take her home where there are no Slayer responsibilities. She is literally
surrounded in white; even her parents emit a surreal glow. This nirvana does not service humanity,
however, for what good is a schizophrenic in a mental ward? Emerson encourages activism and
openness, to use one’s wisdom in everyday society. But Buffy feels split in two as Emerson asks,
“Am I in harmony with myself? Am I vicious and insane?” Buffy wrestles with the same questions,
“What’s more real?” A supergirl chosen to save the world or a deluded child in a mental ward?
The transcendentalist doesn’t flatter good deeds because it gives the false impression that by doing
good, one is performing above and beyond what is required of their very nature. This creates a
paradox for the Slayer because Spike, who by nature should be evil, performs good deeds. However,
Emerson emphasizes there is no true transcendentalist! One must recognize that by living by one’s
own principle he will fall short because transcendentalism exists in Nature, in the Cycle of Life.
Man surrounds himself with Nature and his own humanity is part of Nature, but if he were to “fling
himself into this enchanted circle” (Emerson) he will only be met with disappointment. In short, live
your life according to the spiritual principles you have set for yourself but recognize there will be
stumbling blocks along the way. Dawn voices this lesson in Once More With Feeling: “The hardest
thing in this life is to live in it.” We catch a glimpse of Buffy following this revelation in her defense
of Dawn in Older and Far Away, supporting Willow’s fight against her addiction to magic, and also
in Normal Again when she consoles Xander for abandoning Anya. Will she apply this important
lesson to her own life? Will she take the advice of the first Slayer and forgive herself? Should not
this forgiveness extend to Spike as well?
Emerson’s advise to the struggling transcendentalist is to practice patience in all things. Patience,
or tolerance, is certainly a challenge for Buffy this year. She prematurely killed the Suvolte demon
in As You Were and was anxious to resort to violence at the demon bar in Life Serial. Tolerance was
also a major theme presented in the wedding episode, Hell’s Bells, showcasing Buffy as reluctant
mediator between humans and demons. Buffy is only acting according to what she’s been told
regarding her duties. Remember the troika’s time manipulation game in Life Serial? Her endless
day at The Magic Box was no doubt a test of patience! Giles’ advise to imagine herself back in the
library is met with Buffy’s response, “I guess I’ll have to find my own style.” The transcendentalist
doesn’t base his principles on what others say; rather, he chooses to rely on his own thoughts and
interpretations. But again she resorts to old habits and kills the mummy hand, much to the
customer’s dissatisfaction. Eventually, she realizes killing the mummy hand isn’t necessary and
finds an optimal solution in satisfying the customer. Is Buffy a mere warrior of the people, a hunter?
Or does the Chosen One have a higher calling, encompassing Wisdom & Patience?
[>
Nicely done. -- Sophist, 09:10:07 04/02/02 Tue
[>
Emersonian Transcendentalism and the First Slayer -- cjl, 09:29:52 04/02/02 Tue
This is an interesting angle on the series, ravenhair.
It's been a long time since I've read my Emerson (college years WAY behind me), but I always
remembered Emerson as part of the 19th century American movement for achieving spiritual clarity
in an increasingly mechanized age. The factories were opening up, people were moving from the
farmlands to the urban centers, and the simple clarity of the agrarian work ethic seemed to be a dim,
cherished memory. How does one keep in touch with spiritual values when you're a cog in the new
machine?
Or, if you will, you're just going through the motions?
This has been Buffy's battle for the entire series, and especially this season. She often thinks of
herself as a killing machine, and she's never quite bought into Giles' definition of slaying as a sacred
duty. (She's never been a true believer.) Since she came back from...wherever, the rituals of slayage
seem emptier than ever.
Buffy's greatest challenge isn't accepting Spike, or accepting the flaws in her friends--it's accepting
herself.
In the coming months and until the end of the series, she's going to have to find the connection
between the brutal job she was born to do and the spiritual self that feels alienated from her task.
She may indeed have to tear down many of the preconceptions about slaying imposed by Giles, the
Council and her own conceptions about evil.
But she will also have to stop running from the darkness at the root of her power--come to an
accommodation with the First Slayer; once she integrates that darkness into her personality, she
might find the spiritual connection and the sense of purpose that has eluded her.
[>
Re: Does Buffy recognize this power she has over Spike? -- Traveler, 11:55:10 04/02/02
Tue
I think she does. Spike told her in OMWF "You know you've got a willing slave," and she believes
that she was using him, which she couldn't do if she didn't have power over him. However, she has
never even considered the possibility that she could help him to redeem himself, because she
considers him beyond redemption (Christian or otherwise). This believe prevades to the core of her
being, because if vampires are capable of redemption, doesn't that make her a vigilante at best, a
murderer at worst?
[> [>
Re: Does Buffy recognize this power she has over Spike? -- Ixchel, 14:52:06 04/02/02
Tue
I think the question of Buffy being considered a murderer if vampires can be modified (to coexist
peacefully with humans) _is_ something that bothers her. At least the idea of being only a killer
bothers her a great deal (The Gift). I'm sure this has a lot of influence on her dealings with Spike
(not to mention the long shadow cast by Angel).
IMHO, a resolution to this is to consider Angel and Spike special cases. Both had external modifiers
forced on them (a soul, the chip), but this was not enough. They also required a catalyst (Whistler
and Buffy, Buffy) to further their changes (incomplete as of now in both cases and possibly for Spike
never complete). These circumstances are fairly irreproducible. The catalyst aspect aside, if
someone were to try wholesale vampire reformation through souling and/or chipping large numbers
of them, I doubt there would be much success. I rather think the end result would simply be a
number of suicidal and/or insane vampires (imagine Spike souled or Angelus chipped), with few (if
any) positive outcomes.
Ixchel
[> [> [>
agreed but... -- ponygirl, 15:11:34 04/02/02 Tue
While Angel and Spike are definitely unique cases (Angelus chipped, now that would be interesting,
I'm sure he'd find a way to do a lot of damage), for Buffy to accept the possibility of redemption for a
soulless Spike would require her to completely rethink her worldview. She usually allows the
vamps/demons to attack first, but still one could imagine a bit of a moral flutter on her part. The
real test would be if someone she knew was vamped. After all that's happened with Angel, with
Spike, if a Scoobie were vamped could Buffy simply accept that they were demons and nothing more?
Would she kill them or attempt to save them?
[> [> [> [>
Re: agreed but... -- ravenhair, 15:51:21 04/02/02 Tue
ponygirl wrote:
"for Buffy to accept the possibility of redemption for a soulless Spike would require her to completely
rethink her worldview."
Yes! I think the writers are doing just that in showing Buffy's attitute towards her slayer duties.
The old ways are not satisfactory to her anymore and she is struggling to find her own way. Was the
CoW completely honest with Buffy regarding her calling? Do they even know the true purpose of her
destiny? I imagine Buffy is or will soon be asking these same questions. This is not an easy task
that will be resolved by the end of the season. I agree Spike and Angel are exceptions, but that's the
point isn't it? She has been conditioned to view things in black & white, and the truth is life isn't so
simple. There are always exceptions to the rules.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: agreed but... -- ponygirl, 16:48:08 04/02/02 Tue
A big exactly on all your points, great post on trancendance btw! I've been hoping that season 7 is
going to be a big origin of the slayers arc, really the question is one that Buffy has been ducking for a
while. Restless seemed to promise that season 5 was supposed to give us some answers but the twist
was that instead of looking Buffy had to deal with her family. I'm certainly hoping for Buffy's
relationship with Spike will lead to her questioning her finding some of those answers. I also hope
that it is acknowledged that whatever happens with Spuffy, it's not simply a question of forgiveness -
the stakes (ahem) are even higher for Buffy than her loving someone she's supposed to hate.
[> [> [> [> [>
I couldn't agree more, ravenhair and ponygirl. -- Ixchel, 19:02:46 04/02/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Right! Rethinking your worldview is a good thing, and in the Jossverse especially so! --
Dyna, 10:28:13 04/03/02 Wed
[> [> [> [>
Good point, ponygirl... -- Ixchel, 15:52:13 04/02/02 Tue
I agree and that "moral flutter" could possibly get her killed.
IMHO, if a Scoobie were vamped she would attempt to save him/her. I'm not sure how though. If
Buffy and the SG got to the newly vamped Scoobie first, fed him/her and tried to connect to the
remnants of their friend (Buffy and Spike restraining him/her as need be), _maybe_ some success
would be possible.
However, this leads to the question, if they can "save" (render him/her fit to live with humans) one
vampire, why not try to "save" them all? Then it becomes a mundane matter of logistics. Since it's
impossible to help most vampires in the manner described above, how could you chip and oversee
them (the Initiative couldn't even do it properly, though admittedly that wasn't their goal), or where
could you get enough witches willing and able to do the resouling spells (not to mention how do you
keep the souled vampires unhappy)?
Ixchel
[> [> [>
Remember season 1, "Nightmares"? (spoilers) -- Traveler, 19:05:17 04/02/02
Tue
We found out about Buffy's three greatest nightmares this episode.
1) Her father completely abandoned her
2) She was buried alive
3) She became a vampire
Since then, the first two nightmares have come true. Her father DID abandon her (although not as
viciously) and she WAS buried alive. I'm not suggesting that Buffy is going to turn into a vampire,
but internalizing her inner darkness would come close, which is why she fights so hard to establish a
line between vampire and non vampire. In order to put herself firmly on the human side of that line,
she must put unsouled vampires (including Spike) on the other side.
The ironic part of all this is that Buffy's friends DIDN'T turn on her when they saw she had become
a vampire. Instead, they continued to trust her and try to help her. Also, she (unsurprisingly) was
even stronger as a vampire than she was as a Slayer, and no less a person than she was before. I
think this symblizes how Buffy can become a stronger person by facing her own darkness rather
than fleeing from it. Season 6 finds new angles on theme's present since the beginning of the series.
Joss IS God! (due credit to the rest of ME as well)
[> [> [> [>
Darkness, "Family," and "Nightmares" -- cjl, 19:26:52 04/02/02
Tue
You're dead on target, Ixchel. I'd forgotten about "Nightmares."
In an answer to shadowkat's BC&S post about Tara, I noted that when Tara revealed her deep, dark
horrible secret to the gang--"I'm a demon!"--the gang collectively blinked once and said, "Uh, OK.
Any particular kind?" Once Tara knew that she was accepted unconditionally by the Scoobs, the
darkness she was holding inside of her lost its power. She was, metaphorically, freed from her
demon--so of course she turned out to be a normal girl.
The same goes for Buffy. Once she stops running away from the shadow self inside her (shadowkat's
becoming an influence on me, you can tell), she might find that the darkness she's feared for the
entire series might be the ultimate source of strength needed to win the Last Battle.
[> [> [> [>
Excellent points, Traveler and cjl. -- Ixchel, 19:39:34 04/02/02 Tue
[>
This was Amazing! -- shadowkat, 05:16:26 04/03/02 Wed
I read this last night and was blown away. I agree..I
think your thesis makes a lot of sense. Good work.
Worst of Both worlds - a non spoilerish
finale P-I -- fresne, 10:19:30 04/02/02 Tue
So, last night my housemate and I were on our walk and we fell into a deep philosophical discussion
of the worst possible season finale for BtVS. So, I thought, just to break the ATLtS re-run break
blues, I'd type up kinda sorta what was said and well, I don't actually expect much discussion, it is
after all the worst of all possible worlds.
So, I hear the finale is supposed to be two hours long. It hasn't really been the sort of season to have
a two hour finale. What do you think will happen?
On a bright and clear night, Clem was walking through a cemetery to meet with Spike.
There was a crash of lightening.
Wait, I thought it was clear.
I repeat, there was a crash of lightening, and we discover through an info dump conversation that
Clem is the Doctor. Bwahahahaha.
Ha, ha, ha.
Yeah, I'd say insert maniacal laughter here, but we just did. Anyway, Clem is the Doctor, who has a
vast intergalactic (Dimensional),…as I said, interdimensional crime syndicate business empire. And
Spike really was watching the eggs for a friend, who just happens to pay well.
However, Connor, who is now an attractive 16 year old (rouge demon hunter)… leather wearing
rogue demon hunter shows up in Sunnydale and not in LA at all.
We should make him 21, more like Buffy's age.
Connor, now an attractive 18 year old leather wearing rogue demon hunter shows up from the hell
dimension, with a cool scar under one eye.
We should have Holtz show up with him, except now he's like part demon, or no, he's missing an
arm. And now he's just got a claw.
The Claaaaw (The Claaaaaw)! Yeah. Anyway, so Connor meets up with Buffy and Dawn, who kisses
him.
Can I buy a direction for that sentence.
Dawn kisses Connor.
And then Buffy finds out that he's Angel's son and is all ewww, stay from him because this is too
weird. And then realizes that she sounds just like her mother and Buffy gets depressed.
Unless, we hook Connor up with Buffy, who could be all this is so weird. The father was too old and
the son is too young, cause he's only 18, although you know a bad ass demon hunter, and she likes
that, but it's just too weird and so she's depressed.
So, who should we hook him up with?
Both. Connor's confused.
What about Sophie?
Sophie? Should Holtz be after her?
No, you know Sophie from the Party. Should we hook her up with Clem? Wait, no actually, Sophie
was a plant by Clem to keep an eye on Buffy at the burger place.
Okay, this is getting really La Femme Nakita. So, Sophie's not really Sophie.
Yeah, she's talking with Clem and Spike and she pulls off the rubber mask, like this, and she's
actually Madeline from La Femme Nakita.
And Holtz shows up and attacks Madeline, but she kills him.
No, Holtz attacks Tara.
Oh, and Willow goes all off the wagon and gets all black eyed and kills Holtz with like a rain of
fire.
But, we should make sure that he's really dead, so it goes on for like five minutes and looks really
painful.
And when he's done, you know dying, he blows away in a pile of dust.
Wheeeooooo, all dust in the wind. Yeah, that would be cool. And Tara is all Willow, you fell off the
wagon, how could you? And both Willow and Tara run off crying and then they kiss and make up and
its really sweet.
[>
Re: Worst of Both worlds - a non spoilerish finale P-II -- fresne, 10:20:46 04/02/02
Tue
We haven't done anything with the Troika.
Hmmm, well it turns out that…Andrew is actually a Licensed to Kill agent for the British Secret
Service. And he really does like Dalton best, because he really is the coolest.
Yeah, Dalton is cute.
Mmmm…Jane Eyre.
Yeah, and the whole Troika thing is a great cover for all his spy stuff. And he wanted to join the
troika because…. Wait a minute. Before he joined, it wasn't the Troika.
They were just the Doika. Anyway, Andrew joined because he wanted a cover to infiltrate Clem's
organization. And he's totally cold and ruthless, which is why he didn't blow cover when girlfriend
got killed.
And that's also why no one remembers him. He didn't actually go to school with them.
Yeah, you say your brother is demon dude and claim responsibility for the flying monkey's at the
play, but who are you really?
I think they were flying demons.
Flying demon butt monkeys. Anyway, Spike, whose bummed that Buffy has dumped him yet again
and may be hooking up with Connor, goes to Clem to get the chip out of his head.
Which he does and Andrew gets a hold of it because the British government is also working on their
own mind control program. But they're not as stupid about it as the Americans.
Anyway, at this point Jules Verne and Company show up.
And Rebecca is appalled at how low the British Secret Service has fallen, so she decides to take
over.
So, she kills Andrew.
No, Philleas kills Andrew, because Andrew says something ungentlemanly to Rebecca.
Yeah, Philleas shoots Andrew and then says something cool. And then he sees, Block of Cement and
instantaneously falls in love.
This is where we segue to the Block of Cement love triangle, because Spike shows up and also falls in
love with Block of Cement.
And Philleas, Spike and Block of Cement go off to have their own half hour sitcom where Philleas
and Spike vie for the affections of Block of Cement and occasionally vibe each other because you
know. It would be all 3's Company only much cooler, because they have the Aurora and Paspartou as
the manservant.
Who also vibes everyone and gets vibed.
Of course.
What about Jules? Lets see, he sees Buffy and falls immediately in love because you know, she fights
for truth, beauty, and freedom and stuff.
Isn't there a fourth one.
Yeah, but I can't remember it. So, Jules decides to fight Connor for Buffy's love.
Connor would wipe the floor with him.
Umm, being a French student type and all, Jules challenges Connor to a drinking duel.
Absinthe of course.
Of course, he is a Bohemian.
And they both die. No wait, they just get really drunk. And raving.
Yeah, Jules is talking about Science and the Future and how he believes in it.
Steel buildings and flying.
And elevators and men walking on the moon.
Yeah, straight to the moon baby.
I want my flying cars already. Anyway, Connor is raving about how the Green Fairy is a demon and
he must…ahem subdue her.
At which point Cu Cuhulain and Alexander the Great on their Erotic and Philosophical Adventures
through Space and Time show up, take one look at this scene of debauchery, are all arched eyebrows
and say this is place for them.
And all of sudden, there's a disco ball and strange music playing.
Yes, it was a night that changed Connor and Jules' lives. They never again spoke of it, especially
with each other. However, from then on they each had a predilection for looking off into space and
occasionally spouting philosophy at odd and inappropriately intimate moments.
Back to Dawn. She's all mad because Connor doesn't just want her, so she uses her powers as the
key, cause you know she is the key.
And she opens a portal to the dimension where cool Jonathan is and she sucks him through to be her
boy toy.
And cool Jonathan and lame Jonathan spend the rest of the episode wandering in and out of rooms
confusing people like in a French farce.
So, where is Warren in all of this? Warren hooks up with Clem as like his chief scientist hench
lieutenant guy and he makes Clem a weapon of mass destruction with a big red button on it.
And the button has a big sign that says don't touch this button. And as a reward, Clem hooks
Warren up with these demon succubi chicks that he knows.
And they suck him dry and kill Warren and he blows away like dust in the wind.
At which point, Buffy shows up and looks at the device and says this is the stupidest thing that she's
ever seen.
And she pummels Clem and then she discovers the huge vault where Clem keeps all his money. And
it's filled with gold and stuff. Like the vault from the Gem of Ammara.
At which point she realizes that maybe she should sometimes fight huge demon crime lords, which
would you know take care of her financial problems. And suddenly the world seems okay. Because,
before this money runs out, she can fight someone else.
At which point, she decided to buy a huge mansion on top of a hill at the edge of Sunnydale.
A huge palatial estate.
And the mansion has caves underneath where she keeps her cool and expensive demon fighting
stuff.
And she goes out every night to fight demons and occasionally take their money.
But first, she buys a convertible.
A red convertible.
And she and Dawn go on a road trip together, so they can bond.
But that's another story.
But in a sudden twist.
We still can sudden twists? I thought we were finished.
Yes, we can. And in a sudden twist, Clem pulls off his face and he's really Mr. Jehnkin's, the
gardener, and he says, "I would have gotten away with it except for you lousy kids." Although, Buffy
isn't really a kid anymore.
Well, that's kind of lame.
Wasn't that the point?
Yeah, I suppose it is.
[> [>
Re: Worst of Both worlds - a non spoilerish finale P-II -- purple tulip, 10:43:05 04/02/02
Tue
excellent job!! hahahaha- I thought this was sooo funny- brightened up my gloomy day:)
can I just post a couple of questions that I'm really curious about that your story made me think of?
first of all, I've only seen AtS once and Connor was just a baby- so can someone explain to me how
he's going to be 16 when he comes back? also, didn't Angel get the Gem of Ammara? if he did,
wouldn't he be able to go out into the light? cause when Spike had it, he fought Buffy outside under
the sun. Just confused on these parts- thanks for any insight:)
[> [> [>
Re: Worst of Both worlds - a non spoilerish finale P-II -- fresne, 10:55:47 04/02/02
Tue
Yes, Connor is a baby. However, while babies are cute, they can't cause romantic triangles, nor are
they effective bad-ass leather wearing demon hunters. Although, that does give me an interesting
image of a leather wearing toddler.
Therefore, we aged him.
Yes, Angel did get the ring, but it always bothered me that the treasure room was just left behind. I
mean here's this room filled with treasure: gold, crowns, necklaces, etc. And here is Buffy with
financial problems. I say Buffy should become Buffy the Vampire Slayer and occasional grave
robber.
So, I may have well have said, like the treasure room on the Pirates of Carribean ride. The Ring
Ammara was just an internal reference of a big room filled with treasure.
[> [> [>
To answer... -- Forsaken,
11:07:13 04/02/02 Tue
Conner was taken to a demon dimension where time moves faster than it does here on Earth. Angel
did get the ring, and even used it to go out in the daylight once, but then he smashed it with a rock
so it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands, or cause him to lose sight of the people he helps. Besides,
think Angelus with the Gem of Amarra, and be frightened.
[> [>
ROTFLMAO! -- Traveler, 11:44:36 04/02/02 Tue
An evil Clem conspiracy! Suddenly, it all makes sense!
[> [>
Excellent! *lol* -- Deeva, 11:47:58 04/02/02 Tue
Love your thinking! Even if it was for worst case writing, it was hilarious. Everywhere you turned
you bumped into another pop culture reference. Genius.
Matchmaker.com Meets Buffy --
Slayer_Tea_Party, 11:02:59 04/02/02 Tue
What is it with everyone wanting to pair Buffy up with the entire town of Sunnydale except for
maybe the milk man? This is disconcerting. I've seen messages from Buffy/Giles to Buffy/Tara.
Why??? Buffy needs time without a relationship to figure things out. She will never grow if she
jumps back into a relationship. It's typical for people to think that being in a relationship will solve
things, but the fact that they keep falling apart is the very reason why Buffy shouldn't be in one
right now. I think a lot of fans are projecting themselves onto the show and Buffy. It may work for
you, but not for Buffy. One more thing, can we lay off the freakin Buffy bashing (the character)? I
am going to say this for one last time, Buffy is self-destructive and having been there I can tell you
that judgment is SEVERELY impaired. Ask any psychiatrist and they will tell you that this defines
Buffy. Spike is taking advantage. He knows she is weak and knows her condition, yet he presses
her. Buffy has sex with Spike...okay, once again, self-destructive mode skews a lot of things.
[>
Re: Matchmaker.com Meets Buffy -- ravenhair, 11:22:29 04/02/02 Tue
The character bashing, Marti/Wanda insults, S/B obsession (Spike's eeevil, no he's a hero!), and
various other overused topics I've read elsewhere is why I like to escape to this board. Maybe things
will get better once new episodes air. I admit, I was sucked into the S/B relationship; however, I
soon realized it's the individual journey of the characters we should be focusing on right now.
Anyway, lots of interesting and fun analysis to be found here, very grateful for it. Enjoy!
P.S. - Talk about matchmaker.com, hubby still clings to a B/W romance! Hee! :-D
[>
(slight spoilers) I beg to differ about Spike -- Forsaken, 11:26:58 04/02/02 Tue
Spike hasn't pressed Buffy since Season 5. He was simply sweet and supportive of her at the start of
Season 6. And he had earned himself so much trust that Buffy was willing to tell him her Heaven-
secret before anyone else. It wasn't until OMwF that we found out how tormented Spike is about his
love for Buffy. It had gotten so bad that he vamped out for the first time in a long time. Spike
himself is self-destructive, if to a lesser degree than Buffy, because of his conflicted nature as caused
by the chip. In his place, I doubt I could have kept from pressing for long either. Even when he does
press, he believes wholeheartedly that his actions are helping her. Their fight in Smashed allowed
her to come to terms with her pain and anger better than anything prior to that episode. He was
there to let her "put it all on him" in Dead Things. And she trusts him enough to let him handcuff
her. It's obvious that Buffy enjoys their sex and games, as she has always secretly loved their dance.
Buffy likes it rough. Why all those things are such problems for everyone is not clear to me. And as
for Spike's regressions into evil here and there, such as the eggs, I must say that Spike was evil for a
hundred years. He isn't going to change all at once. Things like this take time, and two years or so
isn't enough. Give him a little time, he'll get there. I've heard rumors that Spike is going to take a
trip to Africa, where he can challenge a demon in order to get the chip deactivated. I hope it's true. I
hope, personally, that without the chip he continues to function as he has, but if he doesn't and goes
back to being the Big Bad, then at least he'll get some satisfaction out of unlife again. Spike loves
Buffy, and however it may have started out, if things are encouraged to get better they can. Love
can always be beautiful, even if it is the love of a vampire.
[> [>
Potential future spoilers in above post. -- Traveler, 11:48:55 04/02/02 Tue
[> [>
Re: (slight spoilers) I beg to differ about Spike -- Slayer_Tea_Party, 07:36:16 04/03/02
Wed
Well, I'm just going on what I think to be logical and sensical. "Relationships" that are founded on
physical violence, mental abuse and risque sex alone don't last. I think most people would agree to
that. If the writers try to develop something "healthy" between B/S later on, I don't think that most
people (especially ones who've studied psychology) will buy that it's plausible.
[> [> [>
Re: (slight spoilers) I beg to differ about Spike -- Caroline, 15:11:58 04/03/02 Wed
Agreed. But this relationship is not founded on these things. I've studied psychology and think that a
future relationship between Buffy and Spike would be plausible for the reasons that Forsaken has
mentioned and more (which I won't go into because they've been spelled out on numerous occasions
on this Board). I'm not a 'shipper' but I think those I read on this Board who are still in the Spike is
evil category are blind to the complexity of his character. Let's talk about about Spike's ambiguity
when he gets the chip out. I agree that in that case, all bets will be off.
[> [>
Curses, spoiled again! -- verdantheart, 11:26:16 04/03/02 Wed
That's more than a slight spoiler, IMHO! Please emphasize future spoilers, as well (I guessed I
foolishly assumed the spoilers were for aired episodes). Thanks!
What is the most unique or unusual name
of a band, artist or CD that you’ve heard of? -- solsissta, 12:49:38 04/02/02 Tue
What is the most unique or unusual name of a band, artist or CD that you’ve heard of?
[>
How about Alanis Morissette's new album, "Under Rug Swept"... -- Rob,
12:55:00 04/02/02 Tue
[>
Potential spam alert -- Public Service Announcement, 13:04:02 04/02/02 Tue
Keep alert for sudden new posters adding to this thread promoting a single agenda.
[>
The Red Crayola with the Familiar Ugly -- LeeAnn, 13:29:43 04/02/02 Tue
[>
I got some good ones! -- Vegeta, 13:43:04 04/02/02 Tue
I got some unusual bands I listen to, here are some names:
Jesus Chrysler Supercar
The Mooney Suzuki
Badly Drawn Boy
...And you will know us by the trail of dead
Lovage
Rival Schools
Dashboard Confessional
Album names usually aren't too spetacular or memorable but here are a couple that are
alright:
"Everything you wanted to know about Silence"
"The Hour of Bewilderbeast"
"In/Casino/Out"
"The places you have come to fear the most"
[> [>
Me First and the Gimme Gimmies :) -- AngelVSAngelus, 15:37:50 04/02/02 Tue
as well as Cibo Matto, Dashboard Confessional, Jimmy Eat World, The White Stripes, Black Rebel
Motorcycle Club, and the Get Up Kids.
[> [> [>
If this is what you listen to -- aurelia, 16:20:48 04/03/02 Wed
I like your taste in music.
[> [> [> [>
Re: If this is what you listen to -- AngelVSAngelus, 14:08:53 04/04/02 Thu
Why thankyou :)
I have a bit of versatility when it comes to the heavy rotationals in my cd player. At the moment its
kind of dominated by new Nine Inch Nails live stuff, The Strokes, anything Bjork (as she ALWAYS
dominates my cd player), and classic stuff from the Pixies.
I'm also a big classical fan, most notably of Mozart.
[> [> [>
Black Rebel Motorcycle Club - big thumbs up! :) -- cynesthesia, 18:32:44 04/03/02
Wed
[>
Band: Voice of the Beehive -- GreatRewards, 14:28:39 04/02/02 Tue
[> [>
Song: There's a Barbarian in the back of my Car! -- GreatRewards, 14:29:58 04/02/02
Tue
[>
DJ: "Photek" Album: "Modus Operandi" (NT) -- Methodica,
14:47:43 04/02/02 Tue
[>
Sweep the Leg Johnny! -named after the line from Karate Kid -- neaux, 15:48:25
04/02/02 Tue
[>
Throbbing Gristle, Psychofunkapuss and Fishbone for bands and for CDs... -- A8,
16:40:50 04/02/02 Tue
...Fiona Apple's last one (had a really long title--was an entire poem, I think), Alanis Morisette's
Former Infatuation Junkie, As Wichita Falls So Falls Wichita Falls by Pat Metheny, The Hissing of
Summer Lawns by Joni Mitchell, and Larks Tongues in Aspic by King Crimson.
[>
Tonto's Expanding Head Band -- Vickie, 17:14:23 04/02/02 Tue
[>
Opie Gone Bad is a local band here -- Dichotomy, 20:45:49 04/02/02 Tue
[> [>
Now this one I like. -- Ian, 06:42:13 04/03/02 Wed
[>
So it's spam, but I couldn't resist... Reverb Motherf****ers. Bwahahah. -- The Second Evil,
22:44:54 04/02/02 Tue
[>
CDs - A Rigby's "Diary of a Mod Housewife" & P Case's post-Christian "Torn
Again" -- dream of the consortium, 08:05:47 04/03/02 Wed
[>
Attwenger...Austrian band -- grifter, 09:03:05 04/03/02 Wed
"Attwenger" means nothing, they made the word up, but it has become a word in use in Austrian
language, which is kinda funny I think. ;)
Btw, some of their songs are great, download them if you can find them (especially the album
"song"). They mix austrian folk music with techno, rock, hip hop...
[>
Re: What is the most unique or unusual name of a band, artist or CD that you’ve heard of?
-- wudeyelye2u, 11:13:17 04/03/02 Wed
The most unique name I’ve heard most recently was when my friend played a CD by a girl named
AVRIL. It’s such an unusual name, I can’t help but wonder if it’s a name she invented for herself. I
think it’s cool. I’ve heard some silly names too: Joan of Arkansas, Wrath of Grapes and Half Man,
Half Biscuit. My all time favorite band name is the Testostertones.
[>
Re: What is the most unique or unusual name of a band, artist or CD that you?ve heard of?
-- cynesthesia, 13:45:15 04/03/02 Wed
The titles of 2 electronica CDs:
This Film's Crap Let's Slash the Seats (David Holmes)
and
Kid Loco Presents Jesus Life for Children Under 12"
[> [>
Re: What is the most unique or unusual name of a band, artist or CD that you?ve heard of?
-- yabyumpan, 15:34:38 04/03/02 Wed
I haven't read the who;e thread so I don't know if anyone's already mentioned this but around the
time that Gay Bikers on Acid where around (also a great name), I saw a poster for Hawkwind (ye
gods), anyway, their support band was Lesbian Dopeheads on Mopeds. That's always craked me up.
Also love EEk!A Mouse.
[> [> [>
Renaldo and the Loaf: Songs for Swinging Larvae -- matching mole, 12:31:56 04/04/02
Thu
Band and their LP (don't know if it ever made it to CD) respectively.
The lifetime achievement award should go to Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) who had album
titles like 'Trout Mask Replica', 'Lick My Decals Off Baby', and 'Shiny Beast and Bat Chain Puller'
and song titles like 'Neon Meate Dream of an Octafish', '25th Century Quaker', and 'Making Love to
a Vampire with a Monkey on my Knee'. And the song content is, if anything, even stranger than the
titles might suggest.
I've always been more impressed by names that might seem only mildly eccentric at first view but
that take on additional peculiarity with more information.
Some examples.
The late 70s Hawkwind song 'Quarks, Strangeness, and Charm' which postulates that Einstein was
unlucky in love because he didn't know about subatomic physics.
Matching Mole - The band from whom I derived my board name got it by translating the words from
another band name (Soft Machine) into french and then converting the french words into
phonetically close english words.
[>
Teenage Jesus & the Jerks, and in 2nd place, Butthole Surfers. -- Peanut Gallery,
15:28:27 04/03/02 Wed
[>
years ago, my brother had a band... -- anom, 21:13:13 04/03/02 Wed
...called the Insect Surfers. Their slogan was "Hang Twelve!"
[>
Re: What is the most unique or unusual name of a band, artist or CD that you’ve heard of?
-- sumdayillknow, 10:53:03 04/04/02 Thu
Have you ever heard the band Finger Pickin’ Good? I’ve heard them, the Beverly Beer Bellies and
Rubber Band. I’ve heard of Avril too! That’s so cool that someone else here has heard of her. I like
that name too. Did you like her music? I think she could the best thing to happen to female rock in
a long time. Have you seen her website at www.avril-lavigne.com? She looks totally different than
what I thought she would look like. Another cool name for an artist is Dido, but it’s not as pretty a
name as Avril.
What is your view on the attempted ****
scene? *Spoilers for future ep* -- ECH, 15:12:13 04/02/02 Tue
What do you feel about Spike attempting to rape Buffy in episode 19. From the onset reports it
seems that it will be an extremely intense scene. I must say that the writers have balls if they air the
scene, but I really think that Ms. Noxon has gone overboard in attempting to show only the most
negative aspects of any relationship with Buffy and Spike. I fear that it will just damage the
character of Spike. Ms. Noxon calls Spike evil, but even chipless and drunk Spike of season 3 backed
away when Willow asked him. I guess alot depends on how the scene plays out.
[>
MAJOR SPOILER ABOVE -- Dochawk, 16:01:06 04/02/02 Tue
This discussion belongs on the trollop board not on this one. And we have to wait for this scene to
happen. Finally, why does everyone refuse to believe Spike is evil? Yes he has shown an occaisional
shade of grey, but it is never for anybody but Buffy or Dawn. In what episode did a chipless
Spikeback away from Willow? He backed away from her when he discovered the power of the chip.
They have shown us he is again and again and most importantly he is an unrepentant vampire,
whom we are told again and again on both shows can't change. Spike fans seem to think that the
entire Buffy mythology should be changed for him
[> [>
Re: MAJOR SPOILER ABOVE -- ravenhair, 16:09:04 04/02/02 Tue
In what episode did a chipless Spikeback away from Willow?
Lovers Walk
[> [> [>
That's cuz he needed her to do a love spell on Dru -- Scroll, 16:20:13 04/02/02 Tue
Just because he put his own desire to get Dru back over raping Willow doesn't exactly make him less
than evil here. IMHO.
[> [> [> [>
My last post was supposed to go under ECH's post "What is your view on..."
sorry -- Scroll, 16:23:30 04/02/02 Tue
[> [> [> [>
How about Buffy's mother, instead of killing her or turning her he chatted with her. --
ECH, 16:28:19 04/02/02 Tue
And even asked her if she had some of those little marshmellows for him. And that was before he
had the chip.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: How about Buffy's mother,while trying to make a plan with Buffy? -- Dochawk,
16:42:46 04/02/02 Tue
he was trying to make a plan with Buffy to get Dru from Angel. he comes close to her mother and
Spike is dust.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Wrong episode, I am talking about Lovers Walk in season 3. -- ECH, 16:47:30 04/02/02
Tue
And in this episode he was alone in the house with Joyce. I can't see any other vampire except Angel
(with a soul) carrying on a nice conversation with the slayers mother.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Maybe he just wasn't attracted to Joyce. -- Apophis, 17:15:10 04/02/02 Tue
Maybe he saw her as a surrogate mother for himself. We never met his real mother; perhaps there's
a resemblance.
[> [>
Why are you so intent on believing that Spike is a normal vampire?? -- ECH, 16:25:51
04/02/02 Tue
He has never acted like a normal vampire, even back in School Hard. Perhaps, it is Dru's
psychokinetically charged blood that was the reason, considering the fact she is psychic perhaps her
blood mixing with his gave him more mental control over his demon then other vampires. Or,
perhaps his demon is just different from the vast majority of vampires. In Paradise Lost some of the
demons of hell were purely malevolent and some were just fallen angels that picked the wrong side
to back. Basically, what I am saying is that Spike has never been like other vampires. Even in School
Hard it was clear from his love for Dru that he was different.
[> [> [>
Re: Why are you so intent on believing that Spike is a normal vampire?? -- Apophis,
17:21:17 04/02/02 Tue
So you're saying that Spike didn't spend 120 years brutally murdering, torturing, and, possibly,
raping people before he met Buffy/met Joyce/got chipped/whatever? Sure, he's different from other
vampires; I'm different from other humans. Just because Spike isn't a mindless feeding machine or
a Master with apocalyptic designs doesn't mean he's not evil in his own way. He's been good lately;
he's had incentive. He's been chipped, he's been "allowed" to bed the Slayer, and, hell, maybe he
even likes Dawn. That doesn't mean he no longer has evil impulses; he's just had reasons to ignore
them. Now, Buffy's dumped him and nobody in town likes him. Say he's drunk or whatever; Buffy
denies him access and how will a person with no concscience, alcohol-fueled impulses, and feelings of
superiority to humans react to that?
[> [> [> [>
No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- ECH, 18:01:38 04/02/02 Tue
He has a sort of sentient free will that other vampires lack. How many vampires would decide to ally
themselves with the slayer to get the woman they love back. How many would do anything to protect
humans ie. Dawn and Buffy. I even think he would be willing to put his life in danger to protect
Willow or Tara. Hell, he even saved Xander from that sword demon in Older and Further
Away.
The chip only keeps him from killing or hurting humans, it doesn't make him act good or evil. If he
was just a mindless uncaring killing machine like you say wouldn't he put one of those demon eggs
under Xander's house to kill him. Or, wouldn't he find a demon that would kill random people for
him so that he could feed from them after.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- Apophis, 18:14:03 04/02/02 Tue
How don't vampires have free will (yeah, I know; that's a weird way to make a sentence)? Darla
excercised free will when she abandoned the Master, who she'd served for 200 years, to run off with
Angel. Yes, a lot of vampires are driven by their hunger. That doesn't make them mindless. They're
all, more or less, sentient, in that they're self-aware, thinking beings. That doesn't make them good.
Spike choses not to kill the Scoobies. He chose to save Xander et al. My point is, he had his reasons
for doing so, and those reasons weren't necessarily altruistic. They fit his priorities at the time.
Remember, the chip didn't make Spike good; he still tried to kill everybody by teaming with Adam,
and switched when it met his goals. Riley was right about one thing: Spike is nothing if not
opportunistic.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- fox, 10:18:02 04/03/02 Wed
hey apophis, i'm with you on this one. i find it funny how people are so compassionate and willing to
forgive or have hope for spike because hes funny (comic relief) or wants to get into the slayer's pants.
everyone here tends to forget about all of spike's killings or intentions to kill. he has shown no
remorse or sought redemption for any of his evil acts. spike is a good character for the show, but hes
evil.
and if spike truly loved buffy, he would do the best or want the best for her. not have her join him in
the dark (figuratively and literally).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- leslie, 15:13:33 04/03/02 Wed
Just a thought here--what if he actually believes that "the dark side" *is* good for her? What if he's
trying to get her to accept the parts of herself that she is so hysterically denying? Notice that he
never says "you're evil" to her (the closest he comes is, forget the name of the episode, when Willow's
my-will-be-done spell goes awry, and I paraphrase, "Have I thought about maybe you not killing my
friends anymore? Well, yeah.") He says "you've come back wrong," to wit, "you have come back not
the way you were before," and he has said "you belong in the darkness with me." The latter surely a
bit of an attempt at wish-fulfillment, but he does not say "you are evil like me," and he has no
problem with calling himself evil and doing so with pride.
I'm not necessarily saying that Spike is correct in his assessment of where Buffy belongs (although
his psychological acument is in general quite acute), but I think we have to at least grant him the
genuineness of his feelings and thoughts.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- Forsaken, 15:20:27 04/03/02 Wed
He thinks being in the dark IS what's good/best for her. Best intentions. Spike would never have
taken one of Glory's fingers THROUGH HIS HEART if he didn't truely love Buffy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- fox, 16:42:23 04/03/02 Wed
i cant believe you guys are actually trying to rationalize this.
1. buffy being in the dark is KILLING her emotionally and basically wearing her down physically for
whatever reasons. she doesnt belong there. spike only wants someone else to be with him, relate to
him...so hes not alone or the outcast. maybe its a phase buffy had to go through to get past her
death, but definitely not healthy in the long run. and definitely spike's intentions werent just to get
her past this, but for her to stay in the dark permanantly with him. you must ask yourself how
angel would have handled the situation of buffy if we were allowed crossovers...
2. taking a finger through the heart? a few seasons ago, spike left buffy to die at the hand of angel.
well, as long as his love DRU WAS OK....theres no doubt that spike is capable of some form of love,
but the fact is his "kind" of love is irrational and wreckless. maybe his intentions are good, but
ONLY FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE. he rarely thinks of the one he loves, only what he wants or what
he wants it to be. his encounters with dru and buffy are prime examples of this....
heres another way to look at it...think about all the REAL world murderers and terrorists. if seems
to me if i write a story about one of this guys, throw in some unrequited love, some laughs, some
passion, and maybe one or two good deeds that show their human side - you will all be willing to
jump of their bandwagon, make them out to be good guys....i think its bullsh*t...
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: No, I am saying he is very different from all other vampires in that he demonstrates free
will. -- fox, 11:05:43 04/03/02 Wed
hey apophis, i'm with you on this one. i find it funny how people are so compassionate and willing to
forgive or have hope for spike because hes funny (comic relief) or wants to get into the slayer's pants.
everyone here tends to forget about all of spike's killings or intentions to kill. he has shown no
remorse or sought redemption for any of his evil acts. spike is a good character for the show, but hes
evil.
and if spike truly loved buffy, he would do the best or want the best for her. not have her join him in
the dark (figuratively and literally).
[> [>
Re: MAJOR SPOILER ABOVE...Klingon Mating Rituals -- LeeAnn, 18:44:03 04/02/02
Tue
Even if you believe Spike is evil do you believe he loves Buffy? If yes, do you believe he would try to
rape her, try to hurt her?
I'm not in the "Spike is Evil" club. I'm in the "Spike loves Buffy, loves her enough to suffer and die for
her" club. So I don't find it believable for him to try to hurt her. For any reason. My God, he let her
beat the crap out of him to stop her from doing something to hurt herself. I don't find it believable
that he would try to rape her given what we have seen of his behavior to her this season.
It sounds like the After School Special Buffy to show all the poor idiots confused by Smashed that "no
means no."
Hey, haven't they ever heard of Klingon mating rituals and cheek biting (Spike clearly had that bite)
and how the female initiates the violence and copulatory behavior? Not to mention mating behavior
amoung shark species where the female is larger and stronger and there is quite a bit of pre-
copulatory violence before the weaker male can manage to mate (bite me, beat me, show me that
you're strong).
No wait. This fits too much with the rape senario, doesn't it? Forget I mentioned it.
[> [> [>
SPIKE IS NOT AN ANIMAL!! SPIKE IS A HUMAN BEING!!! well, sorta... -- Apophis,
18:47:52 04/02/02 Tue
[> [>
Spike's Evil and Free Will -- DickBD, 12:58:41 04/03/02 Wed
I think Buffy would have been a much less interesting show if all vampires were alike, simply
mindless killing machines. But complexities were thrown in. Having a vampire who was different
because of the soul curse was one. Spike has been different from the start, and it has made for some
great scenes. I especially liked the attempted feeding upon Willow and the humor of playing it off as
a kind of impotency. Then there was Spike and Joyce discussing soap operas. And I love it when
somebody says something good about Spike, and he takes offense at that. Simple good against
simple evil is boring. It's been done to death. All of this is different, and it helps make the show
great.
Finally, as an old biologist, I might just mention that at one time the concept of "free will" was a
philosophical argument. Now science has pretty much demonstrated that such a concept is
meaningless. We have the illusion of free will because we can do what we want, but we don't choose
what we want. That comes to us from our biology and our environment. I realize that Buffy is
fantasy, but it stays grounded to reality in some interesting ways. And I apologize for being
pedantic.
Oh yeah, one more pedantic bit. There is a biological reason male sharks bite the female. Since
there is internal fertilization and the shark doesn't have limbs, he must hold the female steady while
he inserts one of his claspers. (What could be more romantic than that?)
[>
Re: What is your view on the attempted **** scene? *Spoilers for future ep* -- Apophis,
17:12:17 04/02/02 Tue
Yes, Spike backed off of Willow. But he's got something to prove with Buffy. He knows what he's
missing with her when she denies him, and he has to show her that he's got his "stones" back. At the
end of the day, Spike is soulless and takes what he pleases, no matter how it affects those around
him.
[>
I think *** is an overstatement. -- bookworm, 19:26:23 04/02/02 Tue
From the descriptions I've seen, he attempts to have sex with her and doesn't believe her when she
says no, following the pattern of their previous relationship. She defuses him; he realizes she really
means it this time; and he feels bad about it. Buffy's been sending out mixed signals all along, and
her no very often meant yes. It doesn't sound like rape to me.
[> [>
Um, how many times would Spike have to attempt ****, BEFORE it became wrong? -- Ian,
19:41:13 04/02/02 Tue
[> [>
Attempted **** is still a crime and quite evil. No means no. -- Apophis, 19:49:42
04/02/02 Tue
[> [> [>
Please be even more careful about subject lines, guys. -- Traveler, 19:55:20 04/02/02
Tue
I'm avoiding spoilers at all costs, and it isn't hard to guess what you are talking about when you
have a four letter word that is a crime coupled with the statement "No means no."
[> [> [>
Without the previous history, maybe it would be ***. -- bookworm, 19:57:41 04/02/02
Tue
But I have a hard time calling that scenario rape after watching the past five episodes in which the
two fight and then have sex; she says "don't" and then makes no effort to stop him from having sex in
public with her even when he says "stop me." Buffy's "no" has often meant "yes." Aside from that, I
don't think a Slayer with super strength can be raped. She's stronger than Spike and can stop him if
she wants to. It sounds like she does stop him and he stops as soon as he realizes she means what
she says.
[> [> [>
Grey areas -- dream of the consortium, 09:00:22 04/03/02 Wed
Two dear friends of mine dated back in high school. A year or two after they broke up, the girl told
me and several other of our friends, that the boy had raped her when they were dating. She said she
went to his house, and they were making out. They had talked a lot about having intercourse, but
she had always decided that she wasn't ready. They were engaging in some pretty extensive
activity, and had disrobed. She decided they had gone far enough, and told him to stop. They did,
then after a while they started making out again, and then he raped her.
The boy did not know she was telling people this, and didn't know for years. Finally, I told him (he
had always wondered why so many of his old friends had suddenly started avoiding him), and he
became, quite literally, sick to his stomach. I watched him try to remember what had happened that
night. Their stories matched up right until the rape part. He told me that when she asked him to
stop, he did, but then they starting making out again and she seemed to have changed her mind.
When he moved in that direction, she didn't attempt to stop him. He never realized that she hadn't
wanted sex at that point.
I believe them both. I believe truly that the girl did not want to have sex and suffered psychologically
from the boy's actions. I believe the boy believed, with all the foolishness of a sixteen-year-old, that
she changed her mind and was ultimately happy with her decision.
I am NOT trying to trivialize rape. I believe rape happens on dates, in relationships, in marriages,
and it is a horrible thing. I am, however, uncomfortable with the simplification of "no means no."
Does that mean the inverse applies? Does yes mean yes to everything? Of course not. Then no
might mean no to this, but not to that. I think we need to recognize that we are people, prone to
misunderstandings, confusion, failures of communication, particularly around the murky and
complex area of sexuality. As far as Spike/Buffy goes, we haven't seen the scene yet, but there has
been considerable complication in their sexual relationship. They have established a pattern of
violent sex - without, I might add, a safe word. Buffy has continually said "no" to mean "maybe" or
"convince me." That, of course, does not mean that most women mean yes or maybe when they say
no. It does mean that this particular woman has established this pattern in this particular
relationship. In doing so, she has robbed the word of any weight or meaning. Now, she is perfectly
capable of getting the point across with tone or physical action or even other words. If Spike fails to
understand her at first, but then comprehends and stops accordingly, that's just not rape, or even
attempted rape, and I do think it trivializes those who have actually been raped to include it in the
same category. I would put it closer in category to unwanted come-on. It's icky, but ultimately,
there is no attempt made to suppress your will. Of course, if he does not stop, that's another issue.
That doesn't mean the scene could not be potentially quite disturbing. The assumptions of the rapist
(if she wanted it once, she must still want it; there's a nyphomaniac inside that frigid exterior and if
I can break through the one, I can get to the other) may come into play in Spike's attitude, even if he
doesn't follow through on it. Maybe we are being asked to think about the way we internalize these
sorts of messages about women. I am more interested in how Buffy is portrayed in this scene. Does
she seem to feel on some level like she "owes" Spike, because she did it before? Has she internalized
any of these attitudes? Does she hate him just for knowing that she has tremendous sexual appetite,
because that is too taboo for her to accept about herself?
I have been so impressed with the complexities of the sexual relationships we have seen this season.
I can't think of another television show that has shown the variety of sexual experience that Buffy
has, from the S&M Suffy sex, to the original "worst-morning-after" of the Angel arc, to the sweet and
communicative Willow/Tara lovemaking in OMWF. I am glad they are continuing to challenge us in
every way.
(I am also not making any statements on Spike evil or lackthereof. End of disclaimers.)
(Oh, no, wait, I am. Spike is the ultimate in grey. Those who want to make him the perfect man and
those who want him pure evil are both ignoring the writing. Spike has done good things, it's
undeniable. Some of these have come from motives that may have been selfish. Some cannot be
explained away so easily (Dawn, or the fact that he hasn't tried to turn Buffy into a vamp since it
has been possible for him to harm her) Spike has also committed atrocities, and feels no regret for
them. Therefore, he is like us.)
[> [> [> [>
Thank you! -- verdantheart, 11:12:12 04/03/02 Wed
Unfortunately, I have not been able to avoid this spoiler, so I will stick out my neck and
comment.
Thanks, dream, for so beautifully expressing what I was thinking in reading the previous posts.
There is a lot of ambiguity in this area, particularly when the participants are involved with each
other. We do not know the circumstances that will initiate this hypothetical scene. I can imagine
circumstances that would (drat their sinister subversiveness!) make Spike look like the sympathetic
one in this scenario! I agree; BtVS has courageously and revealingly dealt with sex and its
complexities as has no other series I've viewed.
At any rate, it's hard to imagine someone who would feel bad about making his ex feel jealous (Sorry!
- er - Good!) would intentionally rape her.
The evil of Spike: Good question. A lot of what we are told (I really notice the use of that word in a
post above) says evil whereas much of what we are shown says good. We know he was pretty much in
the evil camp when we first met him, but even then he was contaminated with humanity (per the
Judge). If we envision a continuum with absolute evil on one end and absolute good on the other, we
can ask where does Spike fall in this spectrum? Even Spike doesn't know. We certainly don't know.
Do you think the writers are actually stating anything about this one way or the other? Right now,
this ambiguity feeds the drama. Eventually we must know, or the tension will draw out and
dissipate. But look; we seem to discuss this endlessly. There's still plenty of dramatic tension
here.
What do I want? Hey, I'm a romantic. I like the idea of the transformational power of love and this
storyline was not pursued with Angel or anyone else on the series (not that I recall, anyway). If
Spike would "turn bad" or "revert" it certainly couldn't have the impact of Angel's transformation to
Angelus (we already met evil Spike, and, besides, even without the backstory of "perfect love" with
Buffy, Angelus easily out-evils him), whereas a transformation to good could be heart-rending,
depending on how it was handled. But for transformation, I think Buffy would have to change her
attitude (Buffy dragging Spike up rather than Spike dragging Buffy down (you came back wrong; I
must have come back wrong), as she has allowed during their physical relationship).
However, I can see several other directions that the story arc can go and still have dramatic impact. I
haven't been disappointed by the story arcs thus far in the series and I expect that I won't be
disappointed with the way this ends up either.
And this was supposed to be a brief response! Sorry about that, folks!
[>
Why discuss something that hasn't happened yet? The spoiler & reality may be nothing
alike. -- Lilac, 04:41:56 04/03/02 Wed
[> [>
Why wasn't this discussion taken to the Spoiler Trollop board? It doesn't belong here! --
Dyna, 08:27:21 04/03/02 Wed
Starring out one word in a subject line is a pointless gesture when the whole subject is spoilery. I
agree with Lilac--it's pointless and stupid to debate a "scene" that no one has seen, based on the
vaguest information. And in any case, it shouldn't be done here!
[> [> [>
Hear, hear!! -- vandalia, 10:58:44 04/03/02 Wed
The Spoiler Trollop board was created for discussions like this, I thought. Please keep such
discussions there. If you wonder if someone has read some spoilery thread posted there, email them,
don't ask them here, please. Its bad enough being in hiatus without the risk of getting spoiled
against one's will by overzealous trollops.
[> [> [>
Dear God, please do! -- Traveler, 11:18:24 04/03/02 Wed
I accidentally figured out what is going on when I read the subject lines, and I haven't been able to
stop thinking about it all day. Now this is going to naw at me for a month until the episode finally
comes out, and it makes it that much harder for me to resist reading more spoilers in order to get
context for the situation. In some cases, ignorance really IS bliss.
[>
Re: What is your view on the attempted **** scene? *Spoilers for future ep* --
Slayer_Tea_Party, 10:46:41 04/03/02 Wed
Once again, what positive aspects aren't overshadowed by the negativity of sex on dumpsters with
physical violence. Hhhhmmm, anyone with a semi-decent psyche will say NOT HEALTHY!! There
is no way this can continue (B/S). I think that the writers will be woefully guilty of portraying a
violent relationship as something that can survive if B/S continue. Every message we have in society
tells us to get out of a relationship that is unhealthy...you don't get more blunt than physical
violence. If the "rape scene" is aired, the writers will be reiterating that this "relationship" IS NOT
healthy and won't last, even though we've already had a million signs of this this season.
[> [>
Re: What is your view on the attempted **** scene? *Spoilers for future ep* --
verdantheart, 11:14:17 04/03/02 Wed
It isn't healthy for either party, as-is.
[>
PLEASE take this discussion to the Trollop Board! -- Dyna, 12:15:32 04/03/02 Wed
[> [>
I second that. -- Sophist, 12:28:50 04/03/02 Wed
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