October 2001 posts
Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- OnM, 15:05:20 10/03/01 Wed
*******
Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey, and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion...
*******
It was so... clear... on this spot. I remember how... shiny... and clear... everything was. But now... now...
*******
I will make a prediction that this episode will cause a lot of division of opinion among the Buffyverse faithful, for in the entire five years that I have watched this series, I simply cannot recall a darker episode than Bargaining.
Make no mistake, I find myself-- as is usually the case with the writers and actors of the Buffyverse-- in awe of people who take what should be the most banal of cliches and turn them into something as powerful and disturbing as this is. I’m thinking of all the carping and bitching of those who, when the first (now obviously fairly accurate) spoilers were leaked in the early summer, were immediately presuming that ‘it could never work’, ‘it’s too trite’, ‘oh please, not a spell’, ‘oh please not more of the Buffybot’, etc. etc. Well, they were wrong. The writers and actors did it, they made it work, and they kept it reasonably true to the mythology as it has so far been presented over the last five years.
Joss has stated on many occasions that he writes for the fans, and that he gives them what they need, not necessarily what they want. For sure, when I tuned in last evening, as anxious as any out there to see how the very non-trivial issue of death and rebirth/resurrection was going to be taken in hand, I really didn’t want to see the results that I saw.
Not because it was done badly, but because there is only so much pain one cares to stand, and Bargaining is all about pain, and guilt, and loss, and how to deal with it. As one ATPo poster has already remarked, this is still a show that doesn’t pull any punches, and I feel pretty safe in saying that there must be many out there like myself who were left reeling by what for all intents and purposes amounts to the pyschological rape of the heroine who, three short/long months ago, so willingly gave the ultimate gift of her life to save those that she loved.
In the recent thread where we were speculating as to what Buffy’s first words would be after her resurrection, most of us, myself included, concentrated on fashioning one of the trademark clever quips that engender a laugh along with the irony. This was before Joss’s promise of ‘it will be very, very difficult’ was made flesh and film, and as I sat in my chair, watching the young woman who just moments before had literally clawed her way out of the earth, gasping for breath, stunned and disoriented at turning about and seeing her own name on a gravestone. I knew then that the words, when finally uttered, were going to be full of anguish, and that there would be no cleverness or irony to redeem them. Seeing her walk down a ravaged street, with fires splitting open the night, I guessed what those words were going to be, and it was with little satisfaction that my guess proved correct. It was all so chillingly logical, and so hard to bear.
This is not the way I would have written this story, but then as a semi-failed romantic, I seek not so much happiness ever after as a sense of overall justice and righteousness. In my version of the Buffyverse, sacrifices deserve rewards, not more pain, and certainly not pain at this level. That this idealistic, and unrealistic worldview conflicts with the nature of the realverse is not much consolation, since fiction seeks to provide an escape from that tired and battered plane of existence for many persons, myself among them.
It is true that we really don’t know what will happen, how this will all turn out. Our past experience with the show makes us well aware that it has evolved from the simple, mainly episodic formula it utilized in the first season into what essentially is a single, very long story broken into 22 chapters, much like a novel, and each ‘book’ in turn leads to another. While most reviews in the media that I have seen or heard have been very positive, some have declared that the 6th season premiere was ‘plodding’ or that too much was left unresolved. The same type of comments have been leveled before, but I believe that they are either due to a lack of understanding that the series is no longer truly episodic in nature as to it’s plotlines and overall story arcs, or simply as a way of trying to deal with the far more emotionally based, and thus inherently non-objective fact that at any given point in time, we just may not like the place that the character’s souls currently happen to be.
That being said, and to avoid the risk of going on in this particular vein and so making this collection of my thoughts into a complete downer, I want to go into the things that I admire about this season opener, and where it may go in the future that will strike a balance with the darkness, and perhaps even ultimately move back into the light.
First off, though I mentioned it right up front, it bears mentioning again that I admire the willingness of the show’s creators and the new network to avoid taking the easy way out of all this. There were many fears among many fans that the resurrection of our heroine would be ‘cheesey’, or that UPN might try to reign in Joss’s vision for the sake of garnering good ratings and returns on its rather costly investment. If they have made it through the season opener intact, all should bode well for the future, since this episode was obviously made for the existing fans of the series, and not with any serious attempt to immediately garner a new, expanded audience. I really cannot imagine a worse episode to try to introduce someone completely new to the show. As I watched the series of clips at the very beginning, I became consciously aware of a fact that I already apparently held subconsciously-- that after five years of the collective assembly of this mythology, it is no longer possible to explain enough of it in any reasonable time so that a newcomer could even begin to understand. The only way is to either just dive in, trusting what your friends have told you, and go with it until understanding gradually appears, or else set yourself down and view at least the last two years in preparation. Sorry, but I don’t see any other way.
Second, there are now a number of potential sub-arcs already appearing that promise engrossing future viewing. The main, immediate arc of NeoBuffy’s reassimilation into whatever level of post-traumatic ‘normalcy’ she can attain will obviously not be worked out for at least several more eps. Willow is continuing her transformation into a being of such power that she may well rival, or even exceed Buffy in this aspect. Considering the nature of their personal interaction in the early years of the series, this is every bit as radical a shift as the one that has been engendered in Cordelia during her time spent with Angel in L.A. Willow once told Buffy that she would ‘never be like you’, referring to the supernatural powers that are Buffy’s heritage as the Slayer. This is no longer true, and Willow will increasingly need to deal with the enormous responsibility that comes with such power. While she may understand the idea of responsibility intellectually, she has never had first-hand experience with it, and of course that’s a very different thing.
There is the Xander/Anya arc, and it was clearly evidenced last night that there may be bumps in the road ahead here, but things are very ambiguous as to the long-term, so who knows what will transpire along this line. Willow and Tara seem more solid than ever, which I have to wonder about, considering the possible repercussions of the resurrection spell. Giles is out of the picture for at least the bulk of the season, reinforcing the reality that the Scooby Gang is truly on their own now.
Spike? I was pleased to see he didn’t come to the rescue at the end. It would have been the obvious thing to do, have him join the fight and be shocked to discover Buffy having returned to the land of the living. They put it off for next week, a good move, as the inevitable meet-up-- and emotional reactions thereto-- deserves some serious screen time of it’s own. His continuing platonic relationship with Dawn, and the possibly less-platonic one coming up with NeoBuffy will keep us speculating and posting for weeks and weeks.
Ah, Dawn. I find it truly astounding that there were those who actually complained bitterly about the addition of her character to the show. Tractenberg is incredible, I can’t even begin to fathom how someone so young can have such natural acting abilities. She and Gellar have a rapport on-screen that makes every moment between them electric. From the standpoint of justifying the enormous amount of suffering that appeared on-screen this episode, she was the bright and shining presence. The scene where the camera cuts from a shot of Willow and Tara holding one another in bed, to where Dawn rises from her bed and goes to lie down beside the Buffybot-- this strange and somehow compelling machine that is all she has left of the physical presence of her sister-- was a masterstroke. As I have already mentioned, Bargaining, was not a prime introduction to the show for those completely unfamiliar with it, but if by chance you were attemping to initiate a virgin into the realms of Buffydom, rewind your tape to that scene, play it again for your friend, and then simply say, "See? That moment perfectly defines the emotional and spiritual essence of the show. Moments like that are why these stories live and breathe inside our souls." If they don’t get it, then you’ll know to move on.
And then there is Gellar. In my previous posts and essays regarding The Gift, The Body, Forever and others, I have maintained that Sarah Michelle Gellar is at her very best as an actor when she is required to paint the canvas with delicate strokes of subtle emotional nuance, rather than in broad swatches of motion or action. If Sarah ever leaves the show, and Joss wishes to continue it, I feel confident that Michelle Tractenberg could carry a role as ‘Dawn, the Vampire Slayer’, and make the show a good one. But, and meaning absolutely no slight of any kind to MT or her obvious gifts, there is simply no Buffy without Gellar.
A large part of the disquiet I feel so far towards this new season is directly a result of Sarah and her work. She now completely inhabits this character, and all of the character’s incarnations. Effortlessly (or so it seems, of course we know it’s anything but effortless in actual practice), she moves between the endearing perkiness and surprising warmth and presence of the Buffybot, into the haunted, soul-ravaged visage of the resurrected NeoBuffy, the latter portrayal in particular so heart-rending that I shudder to think from what part of her psyche she somehow pulled those emotions out of. The scene on the tower, where the positions have now reversed, and it becomes Dawn who must save her, and by extension the rest of humankind, is a flawless counterpoint to the way the previous season ended. Gellar’s dead-on reading of the critical moment conveys to us a clear emotional understanding of that existential despair that NeoBuffy faces, and why she would consider leaping to her death not as an act of heroism, but only to seek the solace of unsensing, unfeeling oblivion. This would be an act that no one would ever associate with the original Buffy we all know and admire, the one who understood the nature of love, and whose soul both recognized and seized upon that one perfect moment of spiritual clarity and brightness, and did what needed to be done, to the saving of us all. No matter how skillfully this scene was written and directed, it required the actor to make us accept the unthinkable, and believe it to be real. Sarah came through. I bow down most humbly in appreciation.
OK, I’m sure I’ll think of some more things as time goes on. I’m glad this story was the season opener, and not the end of last season, and that in just one short week, we’ll be back again to see what happens next.
Please, writer people, we know you can make us hate you and still come back for more, pathetic wretches that we are, but cast some light on the proceedings real soon, willya? We’re only mortal, and we need our happy Buffy back again.
Oh, and what’s up with the numbers 7, 11 and 13?
*******
Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey, and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion?
*******
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[> Re: God, that was brilliant. Agree with Everything you said. -- Dedalus, 15:08:49 10/03/01 Wed
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[> Shall we start an episodic link on the Existential Scoobies site for these reviews also? -- Liq, 15:10:10 10/03/01 Wed
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[> [> Re: That's a good idea ... OnM would make a great Ex. Scooby reviewer -- Dedalus, 15:49:00 10/04/01 Thu
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[> Re: Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- Rufus, 16:17:56 10/03/01 Wed
I liked this ep. I didn't want happy happy, I wanted bloody, dirty, work. In The Gift, Buffy said that She's me. The monks made her out of me. I hold her...and I feel closer to her than......It's not just the memories they built. It's physical. Dawn....is a part of me. The only part that I.... The last person Buffy spoke to, held, was Dawn, she died at Dawn. Her rebirth into the night had to be so frightening, no reward for her work, Buffy was lost. When it came time, Buffy did slay the demons but fled to find the place where things had been clear, the bright,shiny thing she craved. When Buffy got to the tower it was a crumbling hulk of junk some "crazy people" put together, it wasn't the path to the way out of her "hell". On the platform, Buffy was welcomed back into this world by that part of herself she prized so much she was willing to die for her. Dawn wasn't doing well, this life is hard with that part of her she misses so much she can climb next to a machine to feel comfort. Dawn could only beg her sister to help her live this life, come back to her and the world. Buffy answered the call of Dawn....the glowy, shiny, key who is her sister.
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[> Re: Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- gds, 16:40:28 10/03/01 Wed
Excellant review.
I was anxious about how it would go, but I received some assurances from the title credits. The music seem to be note for note the way it was last year. (I hope them to keep that music forever.) The clips with the music were updated for the season, but in the same way they always have been. Of course over the summer I had built up such high expectations that no show could possibly live up to, but it was a very good show. I was also very interested, waiting for her first words.
There were many great lines in it. My favorite was Spike's description of school.
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[> Let's grow up ;) -- cknight, 19:38:05 10/03/01 Wed
I liked the darker tone of the episode. Theme of this season is the Scoobies growing up. the world they live in isn't going to be the same anymore. Just as these characters have to come to accept this, we also as viewers (watchers :) )must accept also. Who would want to see the same crap everyweek? If you do check out Special Unit 2. The dark stuff Willow's been flirting with, then Giles killing Ben showed that the show is heading down a new path.
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[> [> Re: Let's grow up ;) -- OnM, 06:45:26 10/04/01 Thu
The darkness involving the Scoobies was darkness that I expected. What I did not expect was the idea that Buffy would awake from 'the big sleep' and find herself in what to all outward appearances was hell. I deliberately used the admittedly provacative term 'psychological rape' to describe the feeling of what I saw the writers doing to Buffy, and this is what made me so extremely uneasy. This goes well beyond simple darkness, this is doing violence to the hero's soul on an ultimate level-- we aren't just talking losing your boyfreind in order to save the world, or even losing your mother-- we are talking about rewarding a hero with eternal punishment.
That it isn't actually true, isn't the point. To Buffy's perspective it is. Is it right to violate your hero figure in such a drastic manner, or in other words, did they 'cross the line' here?
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[> [> [> Re: Let's grow up ;) -- Dedalus, 07:41:23 10/04/01 Thu
Actually, Whedon said this season was going to be lighter.
I like the phrase you offered up, OnM. Is it right to violate your hero character like that? I don't know. I honestly don't. I'm sure this is setting up something big, but it was a little cross the liney.
Then again, I have faith in Buffy. If anyone can pull herself out of this and make herself and the world better, it's her.
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[> [> [> [> a lighter season? -- celticross, 09:05:59 10/04/01 Thu
Well, it certainly can't get too much darker...and I hope that they don't get in a rush to get to the lighter stuff and gloss over the fact that the season's opened on a pretty traumatic note, for all involved. How's Buffy going to handle being alive again? Will it effect her as the Slayer? (as a person, I don't think there's any question of that) How will this effect her relationship to the SG? Where are our two couples in the SG headed? What will happen to Spike now? How much more psychological torment will the writers rain down on poor Dawn?
However, season 5 did begin on a pretty light and fluffy note. (who would have ever figured Buffy dead at season's end while watching BvsD?) So maybe Joss and Co were just getting out the majority of their angst now, instead of later.
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[> [> [> [> a lighter season? -- celticross, 09:06:14 10/04/01 Thu
Well, it certainly can't get too much darker...and I hope that they don't get in a rush to get to the lighter stuff and gloss over the fact that the season's opened on a pretty traumatic note, for all involved. How's Buffy going to handle being alive again? Will it effect her as the Slayer? (as a person, I don't think there's any question of that) How will this effect her relationship to the SG? Where are our two couples in the SG headed? What will happen to Spike now? How much more psychological torment will the writers rain down on poor Dawn?
However, season 5 did begin on a pretty light and fluffy note. (who would have ever figured Buffy dead at season's end while watching BvsD?) So maybe Joss and Co were just getting out the majority of their angst now, instead of later.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: a lighter season? -- cknight, 16:48:46 10/04/01 Thu
I thought the season was suppose to dark. :)
I agree that it shouldn't get too light hearted, to quick that would cheapen what just happened.
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[> OnM - you rock! -- Marie, 07:16:20 10/04/01 Thu
Blimey, that was brilliant! I haven't even seen the episodes, although (spoiler trollop that I am!) I'm reading all about it, and your post is the one that actually brought tears in my eyes, because I could envision it so well from your marvellous descriptions (if you don't write already - you should!), and 'hear' the lines in the character's voices.
I doff my cap and salute you.
Marie
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[> [> Re: OnM - you rock! -- John Burwood, 12:28:35 10/04/01 Thu
Seconded, Marie. OnM speaks for me on the incredible emotional power of both the acting and writing of Buffy - and does it so much better than I could aspire to. Like you, I will not see Bargaining until January, but I do remember the total emotional involvement I got in Buffy during the early seasons through Gellar's acting. I got hooked on the rare moments of light & appreciation in Buffy's life, living on Joyce's praise in School Hard,and loving Buffy's SAT scores & the Class Protector award more I would if they had happened to me. But maybe the wonder of such moments of happiness is rendered more ecstatic by their rarity. Like OnM I pray for some moments of happiness for my beloved Buffy. I can lap up crumbs, if that is all there is.
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[> Re: Eine Kleine Nacht-anguish, anyone? - My thoughts on *Bargaining* - ( ***Spoilers* ) -- mundusmundi, 13:02:00 10/04/01 Thu
As always, OnM, you've given us lots to think about.
Particularly for me, your essay has echoes of Roger Ebert's review of Blue Velvet from about 15 years ago. In it, Ebert praised David Lynch's consummate skill but condemned the director's treatment of his lead actress, Isabella Rosellini. For Ebert, there is a line between depicting painful subjects and exploiting them -- such as, say, showing IR plopped naked and beaten on a suburban front lawn -- and in his opinion Lynch crossed it.
While I have grown to detest the spoilers (as much as I'm admittedly drawn to them ;), I wonder if part of their attraction isn't a subconscious desire for some of us to map out the treacherous landscape of the Bufyverse, finding these ambiguous lines, avoiding the ambushes Whedon & Co. hope to spring on us. (Last night in our chat I suggested only half-facetiously that Joss should issue a syllabus of the season, effectively eradicating the smug Wandas of the world.) For those viewers with more willpower than the rest of us, there was some speculation that Buffy would come back happier, more at peace with herself. Based on what we've seen before, I braced myself for how I intuited it was all going to come down. Tolstoy begins Anna Karenina (sp?) with the words: "All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is unique in its own way." The familial bonds of the Scooby Gang have regularly been tested with extraordinary tension and pain. I wouldn't call them unhappy; but they are undoubtedly more uniquely interesting than they would be without the challenges they face. We viewers may hope to see good things happen to characters we love, but let's face it, a show called Buffy the Happy Slayer isn't going to hold any of us for very long. On some level, we want them to suffer.
Bargaining could indeed be defined as the darkest episode yet, but truth be told I've been wrung out more by earlier ones. (The Body/Forever, Consequences, and Becoming come to mind.) If anything, the opening hour by Marti Noxon seemed to risk being too bubbly, too light-hearted through the playful humor of the Buffybot. It took me a while to realize that the mood was deliberately deceptive, showing that the Scoobies were trying to return to business as usual when the fact was that things had changed. (The ep could very easily be called Denial instead.)
Because most of OnM's critique is on Part II, we should take a look at its writer, the extravagantly talented, aptly-named David Fury, and his contribution therein. Based on interviews, Fury may be the most spiritually-minded of Whedon's writing crew; and based on his past work he appears to have an almost medieval sense of divine retribution. Bargaining isn't the first time Fury has been accused of pushing things too far. Crush, his examination of Spike's infatuation with Buffy, was brilliant until the final 10 minutes, when for some it flew off the rails. Fury likes to work viewers over, and in Bargaining, as OnM mentioned, he takes the vision of a hell on earth further than anyone might have imagined.
For all this, though, what this episode has left me is not Buffy's pain, but her amazing fortitude. The single most indelible image was Buffy punching out of her grave, gasping for air, instinctively choosing life. It truly was a rebirth. We all enter this world crying at the instant pain that is the price of life. She reached the primitive state of the First Slayer—not through a "resurrection," like a Christ figure, but coming out of the womb of nature, reborn via its blood.
To be sure, much of this was painful. But we also saw hope and courage displayed even as the inferno raged on. The dividing of the Scooby Seven as they sojourned through the Dante-esque Sunnydale reinforced why we care for them so much. (I'm particularly impressed by Xander, more than ever the group's moral compass.) And Buffy's own fighting acumen appears stronger than ever: I can't recall seeing her dispatch demons so easily. There will doubtlessly be more pain, more troubles ahead. But the Halloween episode, the musical ep, and the upcoming arrival of the "Weenie Three" promise plenty of humor and fun as well. Buffy has been given a second (or third) shot at life; based on Bargaining, it seems likely she'll make the most of it.
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[> [> "The Slayer forges strength from pain." -- Rufus, 13:53:28 10/04/01 Thu
The guides words in Intervention still hold true especially now where Buffy has to struggle back to her reborn life and that moment of clarity. What she knew on that platform, she is now searching to regain. This will be the biggest test or her life, death, and rebirth.
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[> [> [> Re: "The Slayer forges strength from pain." -- Dedalus, 14:53:01 10/04/01 Thu
Good catch, but I'm not sure I agree with it.
I don't know. I'm just being overprotective of Buffy I suppose, but I don't think this was part of the plan. If in fact there was a plan. The Guide told Buffy death was her gift also, but heck, that pretty much went down the toilet after Willow's meddling. We're in new territory, me thinks.
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[> [> [> [> Re: "The Slayer forges strength from pain." -- Rufus, 19:18:38 10/04/01 Thu
Who says that tests are scheduled in a convenient way. Buffy was just about to reject her rebirth, her call back to the real world. Dawn called her back and she accepted that call. Buffy is still "the" Slayer, Slayers are always tested. Death was her gift but that doesn't mean that it's the only one. Only the territory is different, the Slayer is the same. Unless she starts eating brains then Willow could be in deep sh*t......:):):):)
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[> [> Buffy-The Giver of Life -- Wulfmanjac, 21:53:58 10/04/01 Thu
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"The single most indelible image was Buffy punching out of her grave, gasping for air, instinctively choosing life. It truly was a rebirth"
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Buffy always chooses life. That's what's most incredible about her character and the development of the heroic mythos around her. She always reaches for the emotional link and survives through those connections.
This leads to an incredible contrast between Willow's path to power and Buffy's. Willow has essentially chosen her path herself and justifies it with extreme rationality and logic. The means are justified by the ends. It's all science really. Magic is simply a systems application applied to the natural world.
I think this sets up an interesting set of confrontations among the Scooby’s. A sacrifice was made for Buffy, whether it was Innocence, Life, the Soul, doesn't really matter, Willow is giving up her self, her core essence, piece by piece, and separating herself out from the gang as she does it. I just finished watching Bargaining again, and I'm pretty sure I saw several looks of disappointment from Buffy towards Willow before and after the demon confrontations.
Buffy's spirit and innate love of humanity vs. Willow's hard headed rational intellect. Interesting possibilities yet to be spun.
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[> [> [> Re: Buffy-The Giver of Life -- mm, 13:24:17 10/05/01 Fri
I just finished watching Bargaining again, and I'm pretty sure I saw several looks of disappointment from Buffy towards Willow before and after the demon confrontations.
Will have to check that out. Interesting. And I think you're right that an ugly confrontation -- B vs. W -- is going to eventually come down. (May have been another reason for the Buffybot: to have Willow feeling in control of Buffy, even a faux one. Perhaps also Willow'll feel that Buffy "owes" her her life.)
If you're new, BTW, welcome!
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[> I can't compete with your critical abilities, OnM, but here are my thoughts. -- Humanitas, 15:50:48 10/04/01 Thu
OK, first the disclaimer - I'm watching Bargaining on tape as I type this - only my second viewing, so stuff may occur to me as we go.
Part I - Darkness
I have to agree that this ep is pretty dark, especially for a Season Opener. I mean, we have
* the sudden slaughter of a fawn (indisputably one of the cutest creature in the entire world),
* plenty of Darkest Magic, including the snakes crawling under Willow's skin (my skin was crawling too),
* a simulacrum of the recently departed (is there anything more painful?), and of course
* A rotted corpse re-animating on camera.
After all that, a demon biker gang tearing up Sunnydale seems almost prosaic!
Speaking of demons, I noticed also that the demons were more, well, infernal, than usual. They didn't have the humor that the badguys on this show usually have, and some of the things they said were really disturbing. I'm thinking particularly of the "anatomical incompatibilities" line. >Shudder!!<
On the other hand, I think it needed to be dark. After all, the hero is dead, and the sidekicks have no choice but to indulge in a little necromancy to get her back. That's almost the textbook definition of a dark moment. That said, this episode was not the unrelenting sob-fest that The Body and The Gift were. There were more laughs, and heartier. Plus, there wasn't the sense of impending doom and dispair that permeated the last few episodes of S5.
Part II - So Did It Work?
I certainly think so. first of all, I was impressed that they kept Buffy dead for the first hour and fifteen minutes. That means when people view this in syndication, there will be an episode without Buffy in it. Odd to think about. Any other show would have had her back in at least the first half-hour, if not the first fifteen minutes. And the process was both painful and intense. [BTW, I just got to the fawn scene - Willow is definitely upset about the who thing, but determined to Do What Must Be Done.] Nothing cheap here. They even got in the requisite disclaimers about it "not being like Dawn trying to bring back Mrs. Summers" for all us fans.
Even after the resurrection, it's still hard. Buffy claws her way out of her own grave (which is a cool parallelism with one of the origins of vampire stories), and wanders through a Sunnydale turned into Hell, not sure where she is. The only thing that can possibly pull her out is Dawn, and the parallels with the end of The Gift are beautifully drawn, from the music to Dawn's unfinished line: "You have to live fo..." Perfectly balanced between not enough and too heavy-handed.
Part III - Foreshadowy Goodness
Here's my list - did I forget anything?
* Dawn is still a klepto - took Willow's clogs.
* Anya and Xander have definite issues.
* Willow slide into Darkness continues - aside from the necromancy, she's keeping things from her friends - almost always bad in the Jossverse.
* Giles and Spike both have major guilt.
* Tera is finally coming ito her own - she didn't stutter once.
* Buffy is even tougher than she used to be - that was quite the beat-down the demons gave her, and she just shook it off.
Part IV - Acting
OnM has pretty well covered SMG, and I agree, but I'd like to call attention to the work done by Nicholas Brendan. He developed Xander beautifully, showing by turns his maturity, compassion, bravery, and determination, while all the while still being the funny and inept old Xander we all know and love. How he pulls that off, I wish I knew, but I think this episode represents some of the best work we've ever seen from NB.
Conclusion
Once again, Joss and company have done the impossible. They took a situation that not only can destroy a series, but has in the past, and turned it into a launching point for the next phase of their hero's story. If this ep is any indication, I can't wait for the rest of the season!
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[> [> Re: Excellent Deconstruction, Humanitas -- mm, 20:26:47 10/04/01 Thu
To summarize what I long-windedly spieled earlier, while Buffy's journey through Sunnydale "hell" was harrowing, I knew of course that she was mistaken, and that she would turn out more or less okay. That's different, it seems, from the "reality" of some of her past torments, or frankly what Willow went through Tues night. (So did Joss & Co. cross the line? Yeah, but then they moved it forward a few more inches. ;)
We're also agreed on NB. His indignation following the spell -- "Snakes coming out of her mouth? What the hell was that all about?" -- was one of his finest moments.
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[> [> [> Yep, sure was. Dunno what he means by the 'can't compete' stuff...;) -- OnM, 20:42:39 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yep, sure was. Dunno what he means by the 'can't compete' stuff...;) -- Humanitas, 14:08:22 10/05/01 Fri
I just meant that your notion of "psychological rape" really hit home, and had never occurred to me.
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[> just wanted to say, that was an awesome analysis! (NT) -- Lunarchickk, 18:45:24 10/05/01 Fri
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[> Re: thanks OnM -- bible belt, 20:10:14 10/05/01 Fri
Great job. Buffy's struggle in this episode was very heart-wrenching to me, but I could never express that very well. I think you have.
Astrology and Bargaining -- Wisewoman, 15:23:49 10/03/01 Wed
Just realized something of minor interest: Tara remarks to Willow that the spell is taking place while Mercury is retrograde, which is happening right now, from October 2 to 22/23. The episode could have aired anytime during those three weeks and the comment would be accurate. However, moving the premiere from October 9 to October 2 also meant that the spell was performed on the night of the Full Moon.
Neat! ;o)
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[> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Humanitas, 16:22:07 10/03/01 Wed
Yeah, but I kept expecting them to mention Void of Course. Damn Dark Alchemy and it's sinister obscure references! ;)
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[> [> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Solitude1056, 16:58:47 10/03/01 Wed
Yeah, but "void of course" is for the duration of the moon within a planet's influence, whereas mercury retrograde happens like every 45 days or something. IOW, Void of Course happens every third or fourth day, just in a different sign each time, and mercury retrograde's a cyclical thing... and it's not really retrograde, if I remember my physics/math properly - it's just that mercury appears to go backwards through the heavens.
Although why anyone would do a spell during mercury retrograde is beyond me. It's when all communication gets screwed up, and what would normally make a friend laugh might offend them cause they don't understand what you're saying, or when it's bad to negotiate because everything will seem jumbled and put nerves on edge from the bad communication. I'm guessing the writers said, "ooh, mercury retrograde, there's a nice phrase and it sounds like things go backwards!" but in fact, mercury's the god of communications so the only thing going backwards are any messages. Like, say, the ones starting with "osirus, hear me." And Osirus would say, "what's that? you want her to stay dead? Uh, okay."
Heh.
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[> [> [> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Devon, 17:03:38 10/03/01 Wed
LOLOLOL! Here I am trying very hard to be patient and not do some kind of necessary magick, and had the same thought. Maybe that's why Buffy stayed in the grave, though...Osiris brought her back, but the communication was a little skewed...I don't recall seeing any of the Scoobies with a shovel...
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[> [> [> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- WW, 17:36:28 10/03/01 Wed
Sol wrote: . I'm guessing the writers said, "ooh, mercury retrograde, there's a nice phrase and it sounds like things go backwards!"
LOL! My fantasy writers' conference has Joss saying to the others, "So, we gotta have Willow do something evil, not just a little bit evil, but something soooooooo EVIL that it'll affect not just her destiny, but the destiny of everyone she knows, of the whole world, and the universe, and..." and an unnamed writer responding, "What? Like killing Bambi? [snort/smirk]"
Joss: "What, are you cra...hey, wait! That's IT!!"
LOL ;o)
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[> Re: Astrology and Bargaining -- Rufus, 17:05:25 10/03/01 Wed
All Greek to me......I saw I got to be a kitty cat and that's about all I know about astrology.:):)
Inconsistency in Angle 3.2 (That Vision Thing) **Spoilery** -- change, 17:07:15 10/03/01 Wed
Spoilery discussion of the most recent Angel episode.
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Cordelia's visions have been getting more and more painful for the last several episodes. In TVT, the explaination was that the painful visions were caused by the Fez demon. He had somehow found a way to simulate the visions that the PTB have been sending to Cordelia. However, if that's the case then all of the visions in the previous 3 or 4 episodes would have to have come from Fez.
So, either Cordelia's painful vision problem has not really been resolved yet, or everything that happenned in the last few episodes was setup by Wolfram & Hart. Or, the writers setup something last year, and then decided to try to write it out of the story.
Another interesting thing is that Cordelia said in TVT that it had been an unusually long time since she received a vision from the PTB. Since the visions in TVT were not from the PTB, they have not communicated with Cordelia in a very long time.
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[> Re: Inconsistency in Angle 3.2 (That Vision Thing) **Spoilery** -- Sheri, 17:15:07 10/03/01 Wed
No, I don't think it's inconsistant. I think it's normal for the visions to be extremely painful for Cordelia (didn't the demon guy in Pylea say that the visions are not intended for humans? That they're more than a human can physically handle.)
The big difference between Fez-visions and PTB-visions is that the Fez-visions had manifestations that effected Cordelia's body (verses the PTB-visions that make her brain feel like it's going to go ka-bluuey).
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[> [> Re: Inconsistency in Angle 3.2 (That Vision Thing) **Spoilery** -- change, 18:06:51 10/03/01 Wed
But the visions have been getting more painful for her over the last few episodes. That was one of the themes from the end of season 2. Cordelia's visions were getting so painful that she wanted to be rid of them. It was when the Groosalog told her that he was going to take them away from her that she reconsidered and decided that she would keep them even though they were getting worse. Her decision to keep them anyway was one of the turning points for her character in the story arc.
From her Point of View -- H, 17:30:07 10/03/01 Wed
Try something out. Those of you who taped the ep (which should be all of you :P ) Start it from when Buffy gets out of her grave. Try to watch the following scenes as if you knew as little as she did. It is very easy to believe that our Slayer is in fact in hell. After all, those biker demons were torn up enough to look like the ones Buffy saw the last time she was in hell.
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[> Re: From her Point of View -- VampRiley, 17:35:56 10/03/01 Wed
When I saw the the rerun of Anne on Sunday, many of those guys, like the one that told them that "You are no one.", looked a lot like those demons from The Scourge.
VR
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[> Re: From her Point of View -- Raven Eye, 19:45:17 10/03/01 Wed
It was kind of freaked out by that aspect of it as well.
It did seem like Hell. The town that she gave her life protecting was in ruins. I could see how confused Buffy was.
I was thinking (though I knew that this wasn't the case, but from her perspective with the limited information she had) what if this was hell? Was it really Dawn? What if Dawn had somehow died as well? (after Buffy made her sacifice, she of course had no idea what happened) Were they both in Hell? Or maybe it was a demon pretending to be Dawn?
I guess I have seen too many shows where "things aren't as they seem". Matrix and other shows like that. How was Buffy to know what was real, and what was illusion?
A good line Dawn could have used when Buffy asked "is this Hell?" would have been "only if you leave me again".
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[> [> Yes, but... -- Solitude1056, 20:16:01 10/03/01 Wed
My point in a lower thread was that if Buffy had been in a different Hell, wouldn't she have asked, "am I still in Hell?" and not "is this Hell?"
And for that matter, if Willow's main preoccupation was with getting Buffy out of a hell, why not just do a ritual that sends her to the Summerlands, or where-ever? A "soul-releasing" spell, rather than a "bring-back-the-dead" spell...
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[> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Kvon, 20:29:07 10/03/01 Wed
From Buffy's point of view...waking up in a coffin, digging her way out of six feet of dirt, coming out alone in Sunnydale at night...I would have worried about having been turned into a vampire (which was a fear she had back in season one)
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[> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Raven Eye, 22:31:52 10/03/01 Wed
It didn't seem like Buffy "was" anywhere.
She just was dead. Now she is alive.
She didn't act like she was anywhere before "returning". To her it was like she jumped, then "woke up" in her grave.
When she asked "is this hell" I thought it was a very legimate question. Sunnydale ruled by Demons, it reminded me of the alternative universe that Anya made as a result of Cordy's wish in season three.
Is this Hell Buffy asks Dawn? It has been, but now Buffy's back, and that makes all the difference.
I am just waiting for the line - thought you were dead. I was, but I am feeling much better now.
Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Solitude1056, 22:43:28 10/03/01 Wed
Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?
Uh, by putting their hands over their ears (or eyes?) and chanting, "la la la la magic clause!" ?
hehe.
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[> [> [> [> [> Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Rufus, 22:47:53 10/03/01 Wed
While humming to the magic clause remember the best way to hide something can be right in the open where no one expects it to be. Always works for me..:):)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Sebastian, 09:34:38 10/04/01 Thu
I would have to rewatch the episode, but it seemed as if Buffy's grave was not in the cemetary, but in a secluded part of the woods.
Sunnydale seems to grow amazingly each season. A wharf/beach in Season 3. A university in Season 4. And a fairly large wooded area now.....
BTW...although I realize the symbolism of keeping the Glory Tower...did anyone else NOT think it strange that the city had not had a 100-foot rickety tower torn down? :-)
Just a thought.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Raven Eye, 18:07:31 10/04/01 Thu
Don't forget about the "Sunnydale Airport". Quite an airport for a suburb.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Orrrrrrrrrr................... -- Sebastian, 09:35:39 10/04/01 Thu
I would have to rewatch the episode, but it seemed as if Buffy's grave was not in the cemetary, but in a secluded part of the woods.
Sunnydale seems to grow amazingly each season. A wharf/beach in Season 3. A university in Season 4. And a fairly large wooded area now.....
BTW...although I realize the symbolism of keeping the Glory Tower...did anyone else NOT think it strange that the city had not had a 100-foot rickety tower torn down? :-)
Just a thought.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- Malandanza, 23:11:22 10/03/01 Wed
"Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?
If there's any group of people in Sunnydale with sufficient knowledge of cemeteries to know where to bury someone so they'd arouse no suspicion, it would be the Scoobies.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, but... -- celticross, 05:51:29 10/04/01 Thu
"Just a minor nitpick here. If they were pretending she was alive through the Buffybot ruse, how did
they bury the Real Buffy with headstone and all in a way that didn't attract attention?"
Xander drapes an arm around the BuffyBot's shoulders in response to RavenEye's question. "Uh, it was just a little early summer practical joke, right, Buffster?"
Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Sheri, 18:00:54 10/03/01 Wed
Skip's a really swell guy... so why didn't Angel explain what was going on, and ask if Skip might have a good suggestion. If Skip's will is enough to to keep Evil Guy in a prison of fire, maybe he could have made Fez's head go *pop*. It just seems really silly to me that Angel wouldn't even try... "oh, it's about a girl... long story." Uh, not that long. How about, "I'm being blackmailed by some really evil lawyers, and they say if I don't free Burning Guy, they'll hurt a girl who helps guide me with visions from the PTB... got any suggestions?" Really, not that difficult!
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[> Re: Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Raven Eye, 22:57:00 10/03/01 Wed
You don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the response.
Angel was "in the wrong" and he knew it. But he had to do the adult thing when his friend's life was at stake. He had to do what it takes when his family is at stake.
Sure he could have spent an hour or so explaining it to Skip. Skip might have even been sympathic to Angel's cause. Might have really empathized with him.
And conversely, Skip could have spent an hour or so explaining his position to Angel. Explaining how as much as he sympathized with Angel. As much as he would like to help Angel and his friend out, how unfair it was for Cordy to be put through so much pain, it was vital to keep the evil guy imprisoned. After all only real evil people were sent to Skip. If the guy escaped many others would suffer torment and death, and they have friends and family too.
Yes, they could have come to a great understanding, the two of them. Understanding of why they committed the acts they did. Why they felt they had to do what they had to do. Skip could seek understanding with Angel, understand his plight, sympathize with his cause.
And then they could fight. For you see, no matter how much Skip might sympathize with Angel, Skip has a job to do. To protect the world from an evil madman who would unleash untold horror upon the world if just given another chance.
See, understanding isn't always the solution to conflict. Sometimes understanding just makes the need for conflict all the more clear.
It was far better for Angel just to cut to the chase. After all time was an important factor.
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[> [> Re: Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Raven Eye, 00:02:46 10/04/01 Thu
"Understanding" sometimes only goes so far.
Sometimes singlemindedness is the best course of action. Knowing what is important, that's the key, understanding is often a waste of time.
And what was important was that Angel's friend was in pain. She was being harmed, and that needed to be stopped. Perhaps that seems simplistic. Perhaps Angel and Wesley should have sat around debating the pro and cons. Researching into the history of the key, debate all the possible moral implications of helping Wolfram and Hart free this evil. But that wasn't the important thing. The important thing was that "It's Cordy" She is being harmed. She is our friend and she needs to be saved.
Sometimes situations call for "simple" solutions. Not "easy" solutions for I don't believe deciding was "easy" for Angel, as he knows that there will be consequences. But simple in the fact that Angel had really no other option. Angel's friend was being harmed. He needed to help her. HE NEEDED TO MAKE IT STOP. And he had to do whatever it took to insure that.
Living in an imperfect world means that adults have to sometimes use imperfect morality. Sometimes that means rejecting "what is right" and doing "what needs to be done." After all, it wasn't power that Angel was fighting for, not riches, but for the life of his friend. And yes, that does make all the difference.
I commend Angel for his singlemindedness.
Have nothing against reflection as it has its place. We can look into all the angles. The history of Demons. After all since they are the "old ones" perhaps they have a point since we have come to dominate a realm that once belonged to them. But as a human, I must be concerned for my survival, and that of my friends and family. Perhaps demons have a "right" to attempt to destroy us, I don't think so, but irregardless of whatever "right" demons think they have to do to us what they do, I want to survive. I want my friends and family to survive as well. That is why I root for Angel, that is why I root for Buffy. They fight for humanity. As a human, that is a good thing to me.
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[> [> [> Re: Why didn't Angel explain the situation to Skip? (or: Why is Angel such a stubborn block head???) -- Humanitas, 04:11:43 10/04/01 Thu
I got the impression that the two of them actually did understand one another by the end of their conversation. In fact, I thought they understood each other perfectly. They are both Warriors for Good, at least in general, and they clearly have a lot of experiences in common, so they simply didn't need many words.
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[> Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Earl Allison, 04:00:56 10/04/01 Thu
This entire scene smacked of the same situation with the Box of Gavroxx (sp?) and Willow.
There Wesley argued that keeping the Box from the Mayor was the "more" correct path. The greatest good for the greatest number, if you will. Here he seems to agree with Angel -- is it because he knows Cordelia better?
What's different here? Freeing this person is a potential risk -- and for what, ONE person? Granted, she's Angel's connection to TPTB, but does anyone seriously believe that, if Cordelia died (God forbid, but hypothetically), someone ELSE wouldn't be tapped to have visions? Lorne, maybe, or Wesley, or even Gunn? (Yes, I know, we don't KNOW that, but it's pretty likely ...)
I agree totally with Angel's decision. He was going to save Cordelia, and damn the consequences. But by NO stretch of the imagination was it the morally "correct" one.
He's sent a message to W&H, loud and clear; threaten my people sufficiently, and I'll do what you want.
Yes, Buffy does the same thing all the time, and maybe I'm coming off as very cold-blooded -- but in the real world, sacrifices are made.
Take it and run.
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[> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Raven Eye, 06:36:08 10/04/01 Thu
It does make a difference that "its Cordy". When your friend is at stake, you do what it takes.
And, no, it isn't about her visions. That is not why Angel did what he did for her.
But I do think that Angel should have killed Lilah. And why didn't they at least attempt to fight the others after the interchange had happened.
I would have been a lot more confortable with the scene if after Fez was destroyed, the others had taken off, and Angel and crew at least attempted to persue them.
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[> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Earl Allison, 08:17:35 10/04/01 Thu
So a friend's life is, in your words, more important?
Again, I am completely sympathetic to Angel's actions, and I also know that her visions weren't the reason. My point was:
In a purely moral sense, one life is worth as much as another -- in releasing this man, Angel may have doomed -- in fact, WILL have doomed, anyone we see this man kill. Had he refused, only Cordelia would have died. It's the good of the many over the good of the few. Now, taken to extremes, if could go bad -- Angel could justify killing Lilah to save anyone she might hurt in the future, true, but this was a tad more concrete -- and may get more so as we see what this man is capable of. In essence Angel has decided that Cordelia's life is more important than someone he doesn't know that this man may kill -- just as he decided that letting the W&H lawyers die was worth letting Dru and Darla loose in LA (he COULD have let them kill the lawyers and attacked them when they broke free from the wine cellar, but didn't -- making him responsible for anyone Dru or Darla kills from now on).
Maybe I wasn't clear.
Maybe I'm just wrong ...
Take it and run.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Sheri, 10:02:08 10/04/01 Thu
True, Cordelia is Angel's friend/surrogate sister... and true, that is reason enough for him to want to save her... but at what cost?
We have no idea who, or what, he has released from the fire prison. Can we really say that releasing this man for Wolfram and Hart is the right thing to do? Was there an alternative way to save Cordelia? Maybe, maybe not... but the fact that Angel never once stopped to think and know for sure that there was nothing else he could do.
Yes, asking Skip for his advice might take some time... although, not the hours and hours that he acted like it would take(and besides, they could always do that off camera... I realize that the show is only *so* long)... but would it have been so wrong to have had another ally who works for the PTB? I know that a lot of us are assuming that Skip would have given Angel a "sorry, no can do" no matter what Angel said, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. For Angel to assume that only he can come up with a solution to a difficult situation is simply wrong.
***One last question for us all to think about before I go (and definately before I get fired for goofing off at work)... how will the PTB react to Angel's actions? Somehow, I doubt that they'll be happy (they must have had the Burning Guy inprisoned for a very good reason), but will Angel be punished for acting impulsively?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Raven Eye, 18:06:06 10/04/01 Thu
Whatever cost, whatever consequence, it was worth it.
It was Cordelia life at state. No cost is too high.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Playing a callous Devil's Advocate -- Raven Eye, 18:03:11 10/04/01 Thu
A friend's life is more important. That is something that Star Trek and Buffy taught me.
The needs of the one outweight the needs of the many (Search for Spock).
It's all about love.
I do think that Angel should have killed Lilah and at least made the attempt to kill the guy he just released once Cordelia was out of danger.
bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- dan, 18:56:15 10/03/01 Wed
anybody else notice that willow was wearing all white in the faun scene? *Not* the usual funky colors that willow wears. and white of course symbolizes purity, innocence, etc. - everything that willow's giving up in this scene.
but isn't it interesting that it doesn't look like she got a drop of blood on her....
and also, with regards to her somewhat fancy outfit, what the hell? who DRESSES UP to go kill something? She looked like she was about to go to her Bat Mitzvah or something...
oh, wait, just came up with a possible answer to my own question. Willow dressed up like she's going to shabbat services because because to her, the faun scene *was* a religious scene.
i am so intrigued by the fact that willow did NOT tell the others about where the blood came from or even what it is. To me, that's the biggest sign of sketchiness about the whole affair.
-d
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[> dan, we're chatting now if you're interested... -- WW, 19:14:21 10/03/01 Wed
http://www.ivyweb.com/chat
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[> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Amber, 00:13:33 10/04/01 Thu
>but isn't it interesting that it doesn't look like she got >a drop of blood on her....
Actually if you look carefully there is blood all over her hands when she kills it, kind of in the lower corner of the screen. I'm guessing some of it spilled on the white dress, thus requiring the change of clothes when she meets the gang at the store.
I was also wondering if she was using a "good" spell to call the fawn to her so that she could use it for the "dark" magic that would bring Buffy back. The good spell might have required a sense of purity or peace, including the dress and crystal around her neck. Using a good spell to do something bad will probably have repercussions later.
Also I couldn't help thinking of Angel and Faith's talk way back in Season 3 after she accidently kills the Mayor's assistant. Angel says something about her having a taste for death now, and the power that it brings. (Not an exact quote, but the general idea) Could Willow have gotten the same "taste" from taking the life of the dear?
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[> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Rattletrap, 06:44:39 10/04/01 Thu
i am so intrigued by the fact that willow did NOT tell the others about where the blood came from or even what it is. To me, that's the biggest sign of sketchiness about the whole affair.
There's also the way she avoided Xander's questioning when they were running through the woods. Everytime he asked a direct question about what she was doing, she would change the subject or give him a vague, politician-like non answer. This bodes ill.
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[> fall fashion choices -- Rattletrap, 15:23:13 10/04/01 Thu
Just a thought: Willow's white dress may have been part of the ritual. We've seen special clothes for special ceremonies before.
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[> the colors, man, the colors -- Solitude1056, 21:40:52 10/04/01 Thu
Gotta go past just that point - Willow starts in white, and kills the fawn. She then appears wearing a red top. And for the ritual, she's wearing black. Maiden, Mother, Crone, anyone? The Maiden loses her innocence, becomes the Mother (vino de madre, hmm), and then transforms again with age in the Crone, who approaches death with open arms, and uses that nearness to wield her own power. This is purely going off on free thought, but I seem to recall a witch telling me, several years ago, that the Crone's power base is that of destruction - in order that creation (in the Maiden) may have room to begin. A form of exchange, ushered in by the Crone. Hm. Bargaining?
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[> [> Re: the colors, man, the colors -- Rattletrap, 06:08:32 10/05/01 Fri
Add to that that in Christian iconagraphy, at least, white symbolizes purity, red sin, and black death. Hmm . . .
Red also sometimes symbolizes coming of age or loss of innocence, as in "Little Red Riding Hood" (referenced on BtVS a few times to date). That dovetails nicely with this season's theme: "Oh, Grow Up!"
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[> [> [> Re: the colors, man, the colors -- Isabel, 21:23:45 10/05/01 Fri
To take another spin on the meaning of colors, and if I am wrong please correct me, in Chinese symbology, white is the color of mourning, red is the color brides wear, and black is the color of knowledge.
I read this somewhere but I can't remember where. My memory could be playing tricks on me.
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[> [> [> [> White and Red in Indian culture -- Rahael, 08:19:25 10/06/01 Sat
In Tamil Culture too, white is the colour of mourning and red the colour of celebration
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[> [> [> [> red=happiness; white=death; true in most Asian cultures -- Solitude1056, 10:13:10 10/06/01 Sat
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[> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Bonnie Heath, 11:41:22 10/05/01 Fri
>and also, with regards to her somewhat fancy outfit, what the hell? who DRESSES UP to go kill something? She looked like she was about to go to her Bat Mitzvah or something...
>oh, wait, just came up with a possible answer to my own question. Willow dressed up like she's going to shabbat services because because to her, the faun scene *was* a religious scene.
You did answer your own question. Willow's choice of attire was totally understandable when you look at what she did as a religious ceremony. If dressing up in robes is appropriate in a Christian church for the formality and to symbolise the importance of an occasion, why can't a Wiccan Priestess do the same for a ritual or ceremony?
>i am so intrigued by the fact that willow did NOT tell the others about where the blood came from or even what it is. To me, that's the biggest sign of sketchiness about the whole affair.
I think that Willow didn't tell the others because it would be difficult for them to understand. I don't see it as sketchy at all. Unless you are a vegetarian, I don't see why killing the fawn should bother anyone so much. Yes, it was violent and not in Willow's normal nature, so it seemed pretty creepy. But why is killing an animal for a religious ceremony any less valid than killing one for food? Where do you guys think meat in a grocery store comes from? A meat tree?
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[> [> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- T-rex, 12:01:05 10/05/01 Fri
>Unless you are a vegetarian, I don't see why killing the fawn should bother anyone so much. Yes, it was violent and not in Willow's normal nature, so it seemed pretty creepy. But why is killing an animal for a religious ceremony any less valid than killing one for food?
I agree. Animals are slaughtered for more frivolous purposes every day, not only for food but for fur or leather as well. Even SMG sports sexy leather pants and jackets while on patrol. (At least it doesn't *look* like pleather) Yet sacrifice for religious reasons seems to strike a nerve with most of us. Doesn't make sense to me.
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[> [> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices -- Talia, 14:13:45 10/05/01 Fri
>>>>I don't see it as sketchy at all. Unless you are a vegetarian, I don't see why killing the fawn should bother anyone so much. Yes, it was violent and not in Willow's normal nature, so it seemed pretty creepy. But why is killing an animal for a religious ceremony any less valid than killing one for food? Where do you guys think meat in a grocery store comes from? A meat tree?<<<<<
A few points: first, there is the question of whether God(s)/ess(es) wants blood. Real Wicca (rarely seen on Buffy) is about not doing harm to living things. Christianity also (usually) regards God as a deity of love and creation, not bloody sacrifice. My personal faith says that shedding the blood of another, human or animal, cannot possibly bring spiritual good.
Second, this was not an ordinary deer. She called it "Come forward, blessed one." It's blood was "wine of the mother"--there are indications that she wasn't killing any old deer but some sort of avatar or chosen one of Mother Earth.
Third, the presentation of the scene indicates that Joss was trying to show us that this was not healthy religious behaviour. The peacefull, idyllic scene suddenly shattered by violence, the spattering of blood on Willow's hands, the expression on her face, and the fawn's struggling all suggest that something is deeply wrong with the ceremony.
Lastly, it should be noted for the record that I am a vegetarian, so I do not support the nonreligious slaughter of animals either.
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[> [> [> Re: bloody sacrifice and fall fashion choices and Willow's expression -- Solitude1056, 20:33:37 10/05/01 Fri
the presentation of the scene indicates that Joss was trying to show us that this was not healthy religious behaviour. The peacefull, idyllic scene suddenly shattered by violence, the spattering of blood on Willow's hands, the expression on her face, and the fawn's struggling all suggest that something is deeply wrong with the ceremony.
What struck me more, rewatching it, was that Willow said the ritual thanks, but her expression seemed... hmm. Like she was thinking, "okay, did anyone see that? I am alone, aren't I?" As if she was worried someone might come around the corner & say, "hey! you in the white! what are you doing??" I have seen sacrifices of various kinds, including symbolic ones, and in each one (for both religious and arreligious-but-magickal), the person or persons took a minute to set aside the next step and genuinely thank the sacrifical object. Sometimes this step of thanking is a ritualized pattern in itself, and sometimes it's merely a momentary pause on the part of the celebrant. But you can see the shift in their face, or hear the let-out-breath, as they pause to sincerely give thanks. Willow didn't seem to do that. She was continuing to say the words by rote, but her eyes and her face were practically screaming, "okay, let's get this last part done and get the hell outta dodge."
I think Joss presented the scene to be as jarring as possible, but I didn't pick up a value judgement on the act itself from an observer's POV. The only value judgement I got was from Willow herself - her expression while thanking, and then later her hedginess about explaining where she'd been and what she'd gotten. It wasn't just that Tara obviously didn't know, or the comments about black market. It was the fact that when Xander asked, she told him the latin name - which, one would think, Xander wouldn't be able to translate, and one would also think she'd know that this answer is less than helpful. When he then asks again, she translates but doesn't explain. If the latin phrase is less than helpful, the translation - "wine of the mother" - is no more helpful. Her insistence in refusing to be clear indicated to me that she didn't want them to know, much as she was suspicious and guarded at the end of the ritual itself. So she herself has put a value judgement on it, for whatever reason. What that specifically is - and whether it's a one-time occurance just for the all-too-important resurrection ritual - remains to be seen.
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Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Sebastian, 11:11:07 10/04/01 Thu
I'm not sure if this means anything...but did anyone else notice that while Bufy's psychological/social state was (understandably) completely out of whack...her fighting skills were still top notch.
I would have expected her fighting skills to be as impaired as her regular senses - but if anything - her fighting skills were stellar.
I would have expected some hesitancy...but she kicked ass if she had not just dug herself out of her own grave.
Do you think there is something deeper - or am I reading too much into this?
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[> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- T-rex, 11:55:21 10/04/01 Thu
I think Buffy's fighting skills have become instinctive for her over the years. It was the primitive slayer kicking in without hesitation. It's probably the only part of her personality that hasn't been traumatized.
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[> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- WW, 13:59:46 10/04/01 Thu
I think the Spoilerslayer site said that Buffy would not be coming back with more skills than she had before, but she sure seemed stronger to me.
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[> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- H, 14:47:29 10/04/01 Thu
I don't think she was stronger so much as without the personality working she was more focused. The past has shown that a focused Buffy always kicks ass harder than a Buffy that's sidetracked.
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[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Dedalus, 15:03:00 10/04/01 Thu
Buffy should come back with more powers. I want more powers. She deserves something. Otherwise, it just looks like they brought her back to bring her back. There has to be a bigger purpose.
Speaking of demon bikers, those guys were SCARY! Those were some of the nasiest looking dudes since the Gentlemen. Am I alone in thinking this?
I wanted to take more pleasure in seeing them being beaten up, but I was still reeling from post-grave Buffy trauma. And as someone pointed out, a Spike vs. Razor fight would have been awesome. Still, I loved his flying kick that dismounted the demon on the bike. That was exxccccellent.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Agreed! Thought Razor's top henchman was cooler than R himself, actually -- mm, 15:18:17 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> Did we get a new choreographer this season? -- Humanitas, 17:24:04 10/04/01 Thu
The fights on both shows are much more kung-fu than I remember them.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> And they're filming them differently, too -- Solitude1056, 18:49:29 10/04/01 Thu
The editing on AtS seemed awfully, well, choppy. The fighting itself was distinctively different than the last two seasons, but it was the editing that got to me. It seemed someone went a little crazy with the jump-shot editing, sort of like a toned-down version of what they do for act-switches on AtS. And the fighting on BtVS seemed more like... uh, well, it reminded me of (don't shoot me for this) that bionic woman show. Strange. Just somehow seemed different from last season, but not nearly as dramatically as AtS' difference.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And they're filming them differently, too -- Rattletrap, 05:58:07 10/05/01 Fri
Actually, I think the shots on AtS have gotten longer since last year, and the stunt work better. Last year you almost never saw someone actually land a punch.
*sniff* Jeff Pruitt, where are you now *sniff* We are in desperate need of your genius.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Andy, 05:47:41 10/05/01 Fri
"Buffy should come back with more powers. I want more powers. She deserves something.
Otherwise, it just looks like they brought her back to bring her back. There has to be a bigger
purpose."
Yeah, I liked the episode but I when I read Joss's statements of "no new powers" I couldn't help thinking he was passing up a golden opportunity and that feeling nagged at the back of my head while I was watching the show. They could have done something really eye-poppingly cool, I think, but instead it feels like it's all going to be character stuff. Character stuff is cool but I want stuff that's neato also :)
"Speaking of demon bikers, those guys were SCARY! Those were some of the nasiest looking
dudes since the Gentlemen. Am I alone in thinking this?"
I thought they were pretty cool. I've seen a lot of people make Freddy Krueger comparisons, but the way Razor's hands operated reminded a tiny bit of Joe Lansdale's God of the Razor.
Andy
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[> [> [> [> Re: I took some pleasure in seeing Spike fell that Demon too. -- bible belt, 11:47:18 10/05/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- Sheri, 21:39:01 10/04/01 Thu
Hmm, when we last saw Buffy, she was kicking some serious Hell God butt... so I don't think she has gotten any stronger since then (those biker demons were mean and nasty, but probably not as strong as Glory).
So why is it that I keep asking myself, "how the heck is she doing that??"?
Well, I could be wrong, but I think they finally managed to find a stunt double who is just as itsy bitsy as SMG herself. So maybe it's seeing a tiny person beating up demons that's throwing us all off? When they had the big hulking stunt double last season, it was much easier to accept that Buffy could send a big fat vampire flying... but now that we're seeing someone much smaller fighting, she seems much stronger even though the fight sequences may or may not have changed.
Maybe it's just me, but did any body else feel like Buffy was sending the demons flying not with her punches, but with a force of some kind? Yes, I know that we've been told that she won't have any new skills... but what if this isn't new? She may be tapping into the powers of the original Slayer that are already within her. (I think that's a reasonable enough loophole to fake us all out when we read the spoilers).
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[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- bible belt, 12:00:05 10/05/01 Fri
I think it's plausable she has some yet untapped slayer powers. It has appeared to me that she could send Demoms flying with some kind of supernatural force in her kicks in previous episodes as well.
Has any one noticed that Buffy runs flat footed? Not the most athletic way to do it. I don't have a problem with it, in fact I like the fact that she doesn't have to be buff to be Buffy. Just wondering.
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[> [> [> [> Sarah DOES have some new stunt doubles (NT) -- Traveler, 00:56:02 10/06/01 Sat
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[> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- rowan, 06:29:06 10/05/01 Fri
My impression was that we were seeing a primal Buffy with her personality stripped away. Her memory and the things that truly make her Buffy (relationships to others, etc.) were returning slowly as she reconnected. But the Slayer part of her was strong. Her eyes, hearing, and voice were all rusty with disuse, but I guess she had residual memory programmed into her bones and muscle, judging by her great fighting.
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[> [> Re: Buffy's Motor skills vs. Social Skills (spoilerish) -- celticross, 07:03:39 10/05/01 Fri
"My impression was that we were seeing a primal Buffy with her personality stripped away. Her memory and the things
that truly make her Buffy (relationships to others, etc.) were returning slowly as she reconnected. But the Slayer part
of her was strong. Her eyes, hearing, and voice were all rusty with disuse, but I guess she had residual memory
programmed into her bones and muscle, judging by her great fighting."
It's the survival instinct, fight or flight. (which is a bit ironic, considering we've been discussing that Buffy doesn't seem to really want to be alive right now) It doesn't matter if a creature has reason or not, when faced with something that can hurt it, it will either run or fight. Buffy's a Slayer. It's her nature to fight rather than run.
Oooo! Thought! She's wandering around a Sunnydale that she thinks is hell. Maybe she fights because that's something she can control. If it hell, she's not gonna do the eternal torment thing lightly.
Or I could be wrong. *shrugs* Who knows?
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[> [> I think so, too -- Cactus Watcher, 08:27:32 10/05/01 Fri
It harkens back to the scene where she was blindfolded and showing off her fighting skills for Quentin Travers.
Willow's Dark path -- cknight, 19:02:46 10/03/01 Wed
I think tara knows more than she's showing in terms of Willow's descent into darkness. Tara is a lot tougher than she shows the group, just like Willow use to have that shyness that kept her from fully realizing her potential Tara is travelling the same road. In many ways tara is ahead of Willow in terms of responsabilty, but since she's way behind Willow in the social department she is allowing herself to be blinded by Willow. The same way Willow threw Xander off the scent of the darkness she's heading toward, Willow also knows Tara has that fear that she will leave her. It's something Willow doesn't have to act on, It's already working it's way around Tara's head over and over because of Tara's insecurities. I think at some point this season Tara won't be able to look the other way while Willow uses the power of darkness. Willow doesn't really understand the concept of paying a price for all the power she's gaining. I feel by the end of the season she will. I think that's really going to be the theme of the season, growing up and realizing everything costs something, even love. I've got a bad feeling that Tara won't survive this season, maybe it'll be giving her life to bring Willow back to her senses (and from darkness) or Willow actually doing something to bring about her demise(I hope not).
On a side note when are they going to let Spike kick some ass?
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[> Re: Willow's Dark path -- MPN, 20:10:14 10/03/01 Wed
I share cknight's concern about something happening to Tara this season. One reason for this, and I know this is going to sound pathetic, is the fact that Amber Benson hasn't gotten a themesong credit. Granted this is a really lame excuse, especially considering the fact that both Seth Green and Marc Blucas had themesong credits yet they departed from the series abruptly. Still, she's been on the show for almost two years now, and I just think it seems rather odd. Anyway, I have a funny feeling that if somebody isn't going to make it on to Season 7, it's going to be Tara, which would be a real shame in my opinion. Tara is a character who I had mixed feelings about originally but who I have come to view as one of my favorites on the show. The idea of Willow having something to do with Tara's demise is just a little too depressing for me to contemplate, but it is definitely not impossible. Is it just me or do things seem even more anguished than usual in the Buffyverse? Still, as always, I will trust in the minds behind the series to do what they know will be right for the show. As for cknight's second point on Spike, I was quite angered that Spike didn't get the chance to rumble with Razor in the season premiere, as that could have been one hell of a fight sequence IMHO. Still, fight scenes or no fight scenes, JM was tremendous as always, and his ability to convey Spike's feelings of guilt and pain was quite an inspiration to yours truly who just recently got cast in a play here at school. I think when I'm rehearsing I'll ask myself WWJMD? "What would James Marsters do?" Stay well all.
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[> [> Tara -- Cactus Watcher, 20:13:32 10/03/01 Wed
Perhaps Amber just has a lousy agent. ;o)
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[> [> Re: Willow's Dark path -- Rattletrap, 06:47:41 10/04/01 Thu
I've had that same suspicion MPN. Most of the cast members became series regulars after a year or so recurring. Tara's been on for nearly two but hasn't.
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[> [> [> Willow's Dark path -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 13:08:40 10/04/01 Thu
Perhaps this is a stretch (and I've never been right before) but:
if Whedon & Co. have one great villain per season --
perhaps this season, if Willow continues on this path --
it's Willow.
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[> [> [> [> Not already, though. -- Solitude1056, 21:13:14 10/04/01 Thu
The Jossian style is to give us a "little bad" decoy for the first 11 episodes, and then replace it/resolve it/kill it, and we end up with a "big bad" for the second 11 episodes. Last season was an anomaly, since Glory was the major bad through the whole season. But if Willow is truly headed in the direction we're guessing at, then she'd be sitting in the little bad spot. That means she either wises up by episode 6:11, or... wait a minute.
I need to take a minute. I think I just had a real thought. Will post on another Willow-related thread, since it deals with that one.
For those of you interested-tonight's chat transcript. -- A8, 20:01:53 10/03/01 Wed
Here is a large excerpt from our Wednesday, October 3, 2001 chat from 5:45-7:56 pm PST. The players: mm, WW, VhD, Brian (aka Birddog), LS, CW, Kerri, A8.
[mm] interesting they're keeping it hush hush
[vhD] Hadn't heard that
[CactusWatcher] I think X is insecure as well
[Birddog] Insecure about the secret and about running the store
[Wisewoman] It was a kinda step back for her character, I thought.
[vhD] I'm with Anya, Xander should've tell the others sooner
[mm] was pleased Tara got to kick ass, for once
[LadyStarlight] You're right, vhD
[Birddog] Are they setting up for some bad between her and Xander?
[vhD] Could be
[CactusWatcher] I thought they would
[LadyStarlight] Probably (November sweeps?)
[Wisewoman] I dunno, some traditional types do hold off on
- engagements and weddings when there's been a death in the family...
[vhD] Yeah, but 3 months?
[Birddog] Didn't Tara seem more at home last night? Like more part
- of the gang
[Wisewoman] Don't want the two things so closely associated in the
- minds of the family and friends.
A8> Maybe she was right when she said he was proposing to her
- because he thought they were going to die in 'The Gift.'
[mm] Tara was great. Specially the 'grrr, arrrgh' bit
[LadyStarlight] that was cool
[Wisewoman] Tara was great last night. Very feisty. Small thing and
- very catty, but why do they always have her ear sticking out of her
- hair?
[vhD] I don't remember that quote
[CactusWatcher] Yeah
[vhD] that's just how she wears it
[Wisewoman] With the finger puppet in the airport
[vhD] I'll have to rewatch it nd look
[CactusWatcher] puppet was nice touch
[Birddog] Seems like Joss is throwing in bits of classic movies.
- When I saw the demon bikers, I thought of the Wild One with Marlan
- Brando
A8> Not in last night's ep, but why she initially turned him down
- in 'Gift.'
[Wisewoman] Right, when he proposed and she slapped his face.
A8> Exactly.
[LadyStarlight] Might've been a small, slimy part of it
[Wisewoman] LadyS, you lost me there...
A8> Under duress, marriage sounded great, but now maybe cold feet?
[CactusWatcher] cold feet maybe
[LadyStarlight] Oops, should've said "part of him talking". Is
- that better?
[Birddog] On whose part?
[Wisewoman] Okay, gotcha.
[LadyStarlight] Not that Xander's slimy
[Wisewoman] He was getting pretty cold feet over the resurrection
- as well.
>> CactusWatcher has left channel #ivyWEB
>> CW has joined channel #ivyWEB
A8> Maybe X had second thoughts when he thought there was a
- possibility of B's return.
[Wisewoman] No he hasn't
[Wisewoman] Sorry, that was about CW leaving.
[LadyStarlight] I think everyone was having second thoughts
[vhD] was it just me, or was Will tha only one who really wanted
- Buffy back?
[Birddog] I wonder if Anya is the one getting cold feet, and she
- wants a public announcement to make her decision for her
[Wisewoman] I thought Tara was pretty solid behind Willow on this
- one.
[Wisewoman] Of course, she didn't know about Bambi...
A8> I think of all of them she felt the closest to her, maybe even
- closer than Giles?
[vhD] I think she was aginst it
[vhD] wnt to know something?
[LadyStarlight] Tara was behind Willow, but Willow wasn't honest
- with her...big repercussions later?
[vhD] I've never seen Bambi
[Wisewoman] You got it.
[LadyStarlight] sure
[Birddog] The Bambi scene was a shocker among many shocker's last
- night
[vhD] And I don't want to
A8> How about 'Bambi v. Godzilla'?
[vhD] Seen it
[Wisewoman] But have you ever seen Godzilla vs Bambi?
[LadyStarlight] I rented it for my oldest a couple years ago, still
- bawled
[CW] There will be something between W and Tara
[Wisewoman] Oh, well that's just as good...not.
A8> Ah, the rematch
[Birddog] Finally saw B VS G several years ago. Delightful
>> mundus has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] Bambi's mom gets killed by evil hunters.
[LadyStarlight] And so...short
[mundus] good grief, two of me again
[vhD] Anyone know of a site I can download BvsG from?
[Birddog] Man is the enemy
[Wisewoman] One for everyone!
A8> mm has many masks in this dark universe.
[LadyStarlight] Dibs, I call dibs
[vhD] why is mm on twice?
[Birddog] Just like in Dean Koontz's books - Man is the biggest
- monster
[Wisewoman] O god, I'm laughing too hard to type..
[mundus] got booted, got back, i dunno
[LadyStarlight] the chat room doesn't like him
[mundus] chewing me up and spittin me out
[CW] Doesn't like me either
[Wisewoman] Maybe it's a GIRL's chat room...lol
[vhD] I don't have any problwms
>> mm has left channel #ivyWEB
[vhD] and I 'm not a girl
A8> okay which mm just left? mm or mm?
[mundus] wasn't that originally a theory? that the hellverse would
- spit buffy back?
[vhD] mm
[CW] mundus still here?
[LadyStarlight] So, mm, are you scared yet?
[mundus] not me, the other one!
A8> mm bot?
[LadyStarlight] mmmbop
[LadyStarlight] Sorry, so sorry, couldn't resist
[mundus] mundusbot. maybe i need to get drunk. got any pointers,
- vhD?
[CW] mm's brother the KEY!
[Wisewoman] Okay, who was doing botroll on the board, today?
A8> Yeah what about that vamp's Hanson t-shirt last night
[Birddog] Sigh, end of the buffy bot for sure
[Wisewoman] And she was so...perky.
[LadyStarlight] That's one word for it
[CW] perky and geeky
[Wisewoman] C'mon guys, she was trying...
[LadyStarlight] Very trying
[vhD] Bad progaming by Willow
[Birddog] And the scene btween torn up Buffybot and Dawn was
- touching
[vhD] And Warren
[CW] I like her, she's just ... Robo-Buffy
[Wisewoman] Lol. Loved Xander's manwitch line.
[vhD] Maybe they can get Warren to fix the robot
A8> Or House of chicks, guy with a tool line?
[CW] Or Warren will make a new one
[Wisewoman] And every Wiccan in the world was screaming, NO, it's
- NOT a warlock!!
[mundus] is Buffybot gonna stay at the end of the opening credits,
- ya think?
[Wisewoman] He made with the funnies, for sure.
[Birddog] Isn't warren suppose to be showing up this season as part
- of a unholy three?
[LadyStarlight] That's the rumor
A8> Yeah I was thinking it was the Jossverse way of distancing
- itself from real Wicca using warlock like that.
[Wisewoman] Spoiler trollop that I am, I've seen a screen cap of
- the Troika.
[Wisewoman] The third guy as really weird hair.
[Birddog] Oh, cool word -
[LadyStarlight] That is our official title, no?
[vhD] huh?
[CW] They voted
[Wisewoman] No longer ho's. We're trollops now.
[mundus] the trolls will be pleased to have trollops
[Birddog] Original Troika was Lennin, Tolsty, and Stalin, I hink -
- not too up on my Russian history
[Wisewoman] Trollops wollop trolls.
A8> Trollops is too much like trolls though, lingustically speaking
- that is.
[vhD] Isn't a troika a type of sled?
[CW] Actually in Russian Troika is three of anything
[Birddog] Maybe, I just rambling on here
[LadyStarlight] But we're so much more classy than the trolls
[vhD] btw, it was Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky
[mundus] Stalin used to doctor photos of him and those guys, didn't
- he?
[vhD] why are they speaking russian anyway
[Birddog] Trollop = Sisters of the Scarlet Slayerhood
[Wisewoman] Ooooh, good one Brian.
[LadyStarlight] We'll make you an honorary Trollop
[Wisewoman] Can I wear a scarlet letter T on my forehead?
[CW] Scarlet Sisters?
A8> Babylon Sisters shake it!
[LadyStarlight] my thought too, A8
A8> Sorry, big SD fan here.
[vhD] Babylon?
A8> So fine, so young--tell me I'm the only one.
[mundus] gotta run. maybe i'll sign on a little later. well, one of
- me.
[LadyStarlight] bye mundus
[Wisewoman] Bye, bye mm
[Birddog] Bye
A8> Hasta M
>> mundus has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] BRB
[vhD] Is this chat a weekly thing?
[Birddog] BRB?
[vhD] or are there people here every night?
[LadyStarlight] A8, which song is that from? (Hey Nineteen?)
[Birddog] I hope so
[CW] Was Spike's hair blond instead of white?
A8> Babylon Sisters
[LadyStarlight] Right, thanks
[vhD] Yeah, Spike changed his hair
[LadyStarlight] The no gel look works
[vhD] I think that might be how JM really wears it
[Birddog] Just like Buffy
[CW] Interesting that Buffy's hair changed in the grave
[LadyStarlight] Microbe action?
A8> My friends say no don't go for that cotton candy--son, you're
- playing with fire. Good message for Willow, hey?
[vhD] She was dead, all; the peroxide wore away
[Birddog] It was the Willow influence
>> Wisewoman has left channel #ivyWEB
>> Wisewoman has joined channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] Maybe being in the dark for 3 months
A8> The kid will live and learn as he watches his bridges burn from
- the point of no return.
[Wisewoman] Did I get the boot, there.
[CW] Maybe that's why Buffy was so confused. Not blonde must be
- hell!
[Birddog] Ouch! the nastiness of machines
A8> I guess this board no longer favors the females.
[Wisewoman] Buffy's hair was realistic in that it apparently
- continues to grow after death.
[CW] Yes
[Birddog] But I doubt the color would change
es
[Birddog] Hey, who buried Buffy if the school thinks she's still
- alive. Did the Scoobies just put her in the ground?
[LadyStarlight] It just looks like it's grown bc your scalp shrinks
[CW] Finger nails grow. Not hair?
[Wisewoman] They buried her out in the woods somewhere hidden.
[LadyStarlight] Nails neither
[vhD] I guess the Scoobies buries her
[vhD] But not in a graveyard
A8> Ooh, an SMG/Buffy question just on jeopardy.
[Wisewoman] What was it?
[LadyStarlight] Did you get it right?
[Birddog] Then she wasn't embalmed which would explain the "rotten"
- look
A8> Of course. It was one of those obvious ones.
[CW] Must have been a tad suspicous when they asked for a headstone
- to go.
[vhD] How did they get a cofffin and headstone?
[Wisewoman] I would have said Xander built the coffin, but not with
- the satin lining and all...
[Wisewoman] Magic Clause
[CW] You can buy a coffin
[Birddog] giles bought the coffin, spike stole the stone, Xander
- craved it, and Dawn thought up the words
[LadyStarlight] Funeral homes in Sdale probably don't ask too many
- questions
[Wisewoman] Lol, right on, LadyS
[Birddog] And aren't they profitable!
A8> Could have bought all the funeral gear on e-bay like they did
- with the urn and backstreet boys lunchbox
>> CW has left channel #ivyWEB
>> CW has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] It's like having the hiccups...
A8> Kinda like the hokey poley chatting here huh CW?
[LadyStarlight] but not as funny
[CW] Only wosre
[CW] worse?
>> Rufus has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] I wann see the hokey poley!
[LadyStarlight] hi rufus
[CW] hi rufus
[Rufus] Hi there
A8> I meant hokey pokey, but I kind of like hokey poley better!
[Wisewoman] Not you,Rufus, Welcome!
[Birddog] Hi, Rufus
[LadyStarlight] WW, that's an Annoying One thing
A8> Holey poley with whips and Cat O'Nine tails!
[Rufus] I'm glad to here there will be no Hokey Pokey for me
[Birddog] Back to bondage - must be fun!
[Wisewoman] I'm choking, aaargh, stop, don't make
- me,....laugh...gasp
[Rufus] So, what have I missed?
[CW] Just try to stay on line. I keep getting dumped.
[LadyStarlight] Yeah, she's Sick Woman, be nice
[Rufus] Besides bondage
[Wisewoman] Rufus, what did you think of Buffy's funeral attire?
A8> I've been cutting and pasting this chat, does anyone want me to
- post what I got on the board later?
[vhD] I liked the dress
[Wisewoman] Yeah, do that 8.
[Birddog] there's always time for bondage, in a fun way of course
[Rufus] I couldn't see it that well
[Wisewoman] We have no secrets here.
[Rufus] I do
[Wisewoman] Black dress and really high heels.
[vhD] what is thes, a Buffy chat or an S&M chat?
[Rufus] All the better to fight in
[LadyStarlight] Tell us Rufus
[Birddog] Who picked that outfit?
A8> Bondage is just another word for hold me tight.
[Rufus] Rufus never tells
[LadyStarlight] vhD, it goes either way around here
>> dan has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] That's my point...don't think it would have been either
- Dawn or Willow...Giles, maybe?
[LadyStarlight] hi, dan
[dan] hey y'all.
[Wisewoman] Hi Dan
[Birddog] HI dan
[CW] The dress came free with the headstone
[LadyStarlight] lol
[dan] are y'all talking about buffy's dress?
>> Kerri has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] yep, and the heels.
[vhD] why is dan after ww on the list?
[Kerri] hey
[LadyStarlight] welcome back, Kerri
[dan] the one that she would have never, ever bought in a million
- years?
A8> I once say graffiti that said "Free Patty Hearst" and then
- someone tagged on after it "with ever 10 gallons of gas."
[Wisewoman] small "d"?
[Rufus] Small is just a word
[Birddog] Buffy died in white, and comes back in black - Hmmmm
[dan] yeah!
[Wisewoman] Did anyone get the e-mail about the printer with the
- pen stuck in it?
[vhD] no
[Rufus] Pardon?
[Birddog] nope
[dan] no.
[LadyStarlight] Exlain, Ww
[LadyStarlight] Er, explain
[Wisewoman] Someone put a note on it saying...:DON'T TOUCH. PEN IS
- STUCK.
[vhD] LS took typing lessons from me
vhD] LS took typing lessons from me
[CW] We all took typing together
[LadyStarlight] And I'll pay you for them later
[Rufus] Uh huh
[Wisewoman] Well, it looks better in printing.
[dan] to bring up clothes again, did anyone notice willow's outfit
- during the fawn scene?
[Wisewoman] Virginal white.
[dan] all white and sabbath servicey.
[Birddog] Typing - best course I took in high school
[LadyStarlight] white, not my first choice for animal slaughter
[vhD] It's bee talkeed about
A8> Sounds like the SNL Jeopardy parody. The Penis Mightier
[dan] exactly. who dresses up to kill something?
[Birddog] Willow goes from white to red
[Wisewoman] LOL.
[CW] Anybody know what she was saying yet?
[dan] hebrew stuff.
[Wisewoman] Willow, or me?
[dan] willow.
[CW] Willow
[LadyStarlight] We're never sure, WW
[Rufus] That's a good enough translation for me
[Wisewoman] We need anom.
[CW] Adonai is Lord
[LadyStarlight] If I could find the TV remote, I could CC it
[Wisewoman] Or, CW, obviously.
[Wisewoman] Did you check the kid's beds?
W] You now know half of my Hebrew.
[Rufus] I take it we are talking remote and beds here?
[Wisewoman] Shalom.
[Wisewoman] Yep.
[LadyStarlight] Actually, the smallest hid the satellite remote in
- the fridge once
[LadyStarlight] We didn't find it for four days
[Wisewoman] Aaaaargh!
[LadyStarlight] There was much cursing
[Rufus] Put a beeper on the darn thing
[LadyStarlight] The kid
[dan] or a page function.
[dan] er, on the remote.
[Wisewoman] Kids have self-beepers.
[Rufus] The remote would do
[Wisewoman] They come standard.
[LadyStarlight] It's peaceful when it's lost, though
[dan] how stone age!
[LadyStarlight] And the volume is always on loud
[CW] Be like Anya trade, the kid in for cash.
[Rufus] Yes, men and kids are deaf
[dan] yes, yes!
A8> What?
[LadyStarlight] People frown on that for some reason
[dan] kid trading?
[Rufus] Anya and the game of Life
[LadyStarlight] Yeah, like it's a bad thing
[Rufus] LOL
[CW] kids frown on it too
[dan] who needs more blue and pink pegs anyway?
A8> Ooh I just had Chitty Chitty Bang Bang flashbacks.
[LadyStarlight] Is there a cure for that?
[Rufus] This conversation will make for a great transcript
[dan] Chitty Chitty Bang Bang: our generation's Nam.
[LadyStarlight] Never seen it
[vhD] who's generation?
[Wisewoman] I think it's called Immodium.
[vhD] My generation's Nam will be Afghanistan
[CW] The lost generation!
[Wisewoman] The cure, I mean.
[LadyStarlight] Hey, I'm not a baby boomer, or Gen X? What am I
[dan] i think we need an abbreviation for: Too many threads!
[Wisewoman] You're in between, LadyS?
[Birddog] I'm a war baby
[Wisewoman] I'm a boomer.
[Rufus] Same here
[LadyStarlight] Think so, last time I checked
[CW] boomer, too
[dan] I'm between Generation X and Y.
[dan] Call me X prime, or x'
[LadyStarlight] Boomers were from 1941-2 to 1965
[Birddog] Boomers are '46 to 66, I think
[Wisewoman] After the boomers came "Love Child" Lol.
[Rufus] We'll give you a note excusing you for that dan
[CW] Brian's right
[LadyStarlight] I concede the point
[dan] ageism, rufus! ;->
[Birddog] War babies to 1946
[Rufus] Smile
[Rufus] Whoever is snake talkin
[Wisewoman] Snakes symbolize wisdom and regeneration.
[Birddog] symbol of the snake devouring its tail some kind of world
- symbol
[Wisewoman] Ouroboros
[dan] ouroborous.
[Wisewoman] great minds type alike
[dan] jinx!
A8> I know they can be associated with the Moon in terms of death
- and rebirth.
A8> I learned that from reading Campbell.
[Wisewoman] Where are you, Dedalus?
[Birddog] Man. his last essay rocked - lots of food for thought
>> Rufus has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] Bet she got bumped.
>> dan has left channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] him too
[Wisewoman] OMG they're all bumping
[CW] Bumped again
[Birddog] who's next?
[LadyStarlight] Not me
[Wisewoman] This is like anAgatha Christie mystery
[Birddog] bumping in the night
A8> And they shed their skin, like the Moon sheds its shadow and a
- woman sheds her menstual lining (?)
[LadyStarlight] 10 Little Chatters
>> dan has joined channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] You got it, A8
>> Rufus has joined channel #ivyWEB
[dan] my net connection booted me off.
[Wisewoman] That's the regenerative thing.
A8> Although my misspelling of menstrual makes me sound like a
- yokel.
>> Rufus has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] Ah, just Annoying.
[Wisewoman] Rufus has bumped again!
[Birddog] poor rufus
[LadyStarlight] Rufus doesn't love us anymore
A8> Rufus come in, Rufus go out
[dan] is there a limit on chatters?
[Wisewoman] Don't think so.
[Wisewoman] Anybody ever try the "private chat" function?
>> CW has left channel #ivyWEB
[Wisewoman] What does it do?
A8> I think it may have to do with your connection-when I was
- booted I was also disconnected from the Net.
>> CW has joined channel #ivyWEB
[dan] it's the Chat-Go-Round!
[Wisewoman] Is it the dial-up people who are getting booted?
A8> I'm dial-up
[Birddog] here today, chat tomorrow
[LadyStarlight] I'm dial-up, I think
[dan] people come on, people bumped off, people come on, people
- bumped off!
[CW] That's it ! spell bad and get booted
[CW] I'm Dsl
[LadyStarlight] But no pressure
[Wisewoman] Is that like dyslexic?
[dan] i'm DSL, and I got booted.
A8> Guilty as charged, but still here for now.
[CW] I'm also dyslexic!
A8> Spell bad, tree good!
[LadyStarlight] Evil thoughts, maybe?
[Birddog] Hey is Keeri still with us?
A8> Or good thoughts.
[Wisewoman] None of us would still behere.
[dan] like choclatey spike?
[Wisewoman] I thought Kerri said goodnight?
[Wisewoman] Oh, dan, what you said!
[LadyStarlight] Ooh, chocolate Spike....
CW] Ghost of Kerri is here
[Wisewoman] Several of us will have to leave for a minut or two...
[Birddog] Name is still on my list - just curious
[LadyStarlight] Don't make me drool on my keyboard
[dan] *moment of awed silence*
[Kerri] sorry guys-im here-just keep stepping away
[Birddog] remember - dark chocolate Spike
[LadyStarlight] oooh,...must stop thinking now
[CW] I prefer milk chocolate Spike
[dan] speaking, obliquely, of testosterone and xy chromosomes, do
- we think the show is going to balance out its genders a little
- more?
[Birddog] Xander needs a guy friend
[Wisewoman] Dunno, I was thinking Xander's line was leading up to a
- bonding with Spike.
A8> How about "Death by Chocolate"? Dark, white and milk chocolate
- with truffle center?
[LadyStarlight] Well, Angel is pretty testosterone laden
[CW] I think making X more mature helps
[LadyStarlight] A8, go sit in the corner. Can't afford to replace
- keyboard right now
A8> Am in corner--shouting instructions to my keyboard-and it is
- obeying--spooky!
[dan] AtS is really testosterone laden. a little too macho for my
- taste sometimes.
[Kerri] well i need to go-ive got work to do. tata. :)
[Wisewoman] What BtVS needs is a Host.
LadyStarlight] At least *someboady* obeys me, bwahahaha
[dan] bye, kerri.
[CW] bye
[Birddog] Bye Kerri
>> Kerri has left channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] somebody, sorry
[Birddog] And then there were 5
[dan] WW, what do you mean by that Host comment?
[Wisewoman] I just love the Host, and I think they need an equally
- biting and witty character
[Wisewoman] Anya let me down last night.
[dan] She did.
[LadyStarlight] Spike isn't biting and witty enought for you
[dan] Tara took her coolness.
[dan] not too much spikeage last night, really.
[CW] Naughty Tara
[LadyStarlight] Okay, A8, you can come out now
[Birddog] They just left Spike out of the loop even to the end of
- the show
[dan] that's ok.
A8> Sorry, all this cutting and pasting--can't chew gum and talk
- simultaneously.
[LadyStarlight] That was deliberate, I thought
[dan] i know there'll be more than enough spike this season.
[dan] even for all of our depraved purposes. ;-.
[dan] oops, i menat ;->
[dan] oops, i meant "meant."
[Birddog] Final comment before I go to bed - Loved the closeness of
- Tara and Willow - lots of touch, hugging, kissing - very natural
- and it seemed just right
[Wisewoman] Gotta go, spouse demanding quality time, lol.
[dan] yes, very much so. they seem so solid.
[dan] see ya, WW.
A8> Actually, my depraved purposes would wish for more Drusilla or
- some Faith.
[LadyStarlight] bye you two
[Wisewoman] See ya.
[dan] see ya, birddog.
A8> Bye ww
[Birddog] NIght all
>> Wisewoman has left channel #ivyWEB
>> Birddog has left channel #ivyWEB
[LadyStarlight] And now there are four
[CW] for now
[dan] I would like to see some more Drusilla and Faith myself.
[LadyStarlight] True
[dan] But Eliza's doing so much movie work...
[CW] Faith especially
[LadyStarlight] I like Drusilla, in a creepy kind of way
A8> I'm gonna go in a couple to watch Enterprise (yeah-I'm a bit of
- a nerd), but the transcript of much of this will be on the board in
- a few.
[LadyStarlight] Thinking about working her into a new story
[dan] angels and ministers of grace defend us.
A8> I love Faith.
[dan] me, too.
[CW] I like her too
[dan] i'd love a Faith spinoff.
A8> LS, how about a story with Faith falling in love and having her
- heart broken?
[dan] or for her to become a regular on angel.
[CW] Slayer IN JAIL
[LadyStarlight] Um, since I haven't seen S3 yet, don't really know
- Faith
[LadyStarlight] BTW, did you guys read 'Bonding' (shameless
- grasping for compliments here)
A8> Not yet, still digesting Dark Alchemy.
[CW] NOt yet
[dan] Question: were any of y'all into fanfic before Buffy?
[dan] reading or writing it?
[LadyStarlight] Not at all
Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Solitude1056, 20:12:04 10/03/01 Wed
I've noticed in the past few weeks that when trolls come around, the board is responding differently. This group still seems to manage to divert some of the troll posts into long-winded intelligent on-topic discussions, which is good... but I'm a little tired (ok, more than a little tired) of the random trollbot responses that mock the original post. We don't need to sink to that level. It was amusing the first time, but it's just pathetic now. We have folks writing from different backgrounds, cultures, and language abilities, and sending in the troll-parody at the drop of a hat has lost the amusement factor, IMO.
I'm going back to ignoring them, as the first solution. If that doesn't work, I'll just take myself to a different board, because I don't like and don't appreciate the notion that folks are getting mocked. I much preferred it when even the trolls got the benefit of the doubt and we still managed to wrap their feistiness into an intelligent on-topic discussion, and failing that, just ignored them.
Just my two dinar.
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[> I totally agree, but have to admit that... -- A8, 20:25:30 10/03/01 Wed
...every once in a while, the troll-bot response does give me a giggle. Can't help it if I'm emotionally-growth stunted at times. I don't think the trolls or troll-bot responses have been so voluminous as to merit too much concern at this time--yet. Probably best for everyone to just ignore them and start more thoughtful discussions on new message threads.
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[> Normally I agree -- Cactus Watcher, 20:30:12 10/03/01 Wed
But the guy pushing the pyramid scheme deserved razzing.
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Rufus, 20:37:39 10/03/01 Wed
Sol, everyone eventually learns not to feed the trolls, posative or negative comments only encourage more attacks, so the best bet is to ignore them completely...period. If someone in the thread says something worth commenting on reply to them and leave the trolls alone.
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Drizzt, 20:43:43 10/03/01 Wed
Like the recent Trolls that have been posting propeganda, I did try to divert discussion in my own interest. I was not explicitely rude; I was worse in being passive-aggressive. I speak as a borderline troll(just a couple of my threads) in saying I have been treated civily on this board. I would miss you if you left Solitude.
Regarding Jean and Susan; I and others did reply to their posts seriously, but they continued to post what I considered illogical or worse inane and pointless comments. That is when I thought of them as Trolls; I gave them a benefit of the doupt to start with.
The last two or three have been single posts that were not even slightly relivent and in at least one case it was a plaugerized article that was posted without giving credit to the author. I do not think all posts need to be relivent, however propeganda that is simply posted and not defended should be ignored completely.
Anyone who decides to post an oppinion SHOULD be willing to defend it, and failling that; change their mind.
Hmmm I like the Buffybot on the show, but you are right about it getting old here. The buffybot V.1 was SO perky though;-)
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Wisewoman, 20:51:11 10/03/01 Wed
If that doesn't work, I'll just take myself to a different board, because I don't like and don't appreciate the notion that folks are getting mocked.
Um, Sol, that doesn't sound like a "minor request." It sounds like an ultimatum.
Is there no room for discussion here? Could you be a bit more specific about who was being "mocked"? I don't consider a comment that something was blatantly off-topic to be mocking. Am I missing something?
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[> [> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- cknight, 21:29:30 10/03/01 Wed
I agree with Wisewoman,
we all use this board to share our views. Maybe some
people you think are trolls, really aren't. Maybe they're just new to the board. I know one thing we don't need and I hope it doesn't happen, is that a "click" gets created. Where certain "posters" will only answer certain other "posters". I've been posting since last winter and hopefully I have not pissed off or mocked anyone, if I have I'm sorry. But again if someone posts something that you or whomever feel is mocking please speak (post) up. :)
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[> [> [> Not personal, nor necessarily an ultimatum. Just observing & disliking. -- Solitude1056, 22:02:30 10/03/01 Wed
I don't like any folks getting mocked or mimicked or ridiculed, no matter how amusing the rest of us may find it. I'm regretting any indication that I encouraged such behavior. So I won't support such, any more. I'm voting at this point with my fingers, but I'll do it later with my feet, if that's what it comes to. If I didn't speak up, then yeah, blame me for just ducking & leaving. But I'm speaking up.
I'm just asking folks to think twice before they ridicule someone personally or mock someone's post. We may be dealing with a troll, we may be dealing with someone who's just new & hasn't lurked for long enough to realize that it's a dead topic or that off-topic isn't welcome, or whatever. We may even just be dealing with someone who's not the best with English. In any case, there's three responses we've usually had: asking for clarification, diverting it into an on-topic thread, or ignoring the post altogether. Mocking or ridiculing isn't an acceptable option, again in my humble opinion. We don't need to sink to that level. Just think before you post, either in posting a non-constructive response or in encouraging it. We're better than that.
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[> [> [> [> and may I add.... -- Liq, 22:08:55 10/03/01 Wed
That we may be dealing with a regular member of our group who is somehow intimidated by the fact that we may not agree and censor them and who does not give their familiar username.
I respect all of your opinions. I consider you friends. If we disagree... oh well.... that is what free speech and free will is.
I will repeat now what I said last week when I got so annoyed. This board is here for a specific reason which we all enjoy. We respect each other. We are known for that. We also occasionally stray off-topic. All for the good. I suggest, again, that if there is a topic that really, honestly does not belong on this board, then the people interested in discussing it, get together and meet in the chat room. That is what it is for and it keeps our board available for the reason it was intended.
That's the end of my rant. Here's hoping we can keep it together, because I really appreciate each and everyone of you.
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[> [> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Liq, 22:02:43 10/03/01 Wed
I'm afraid I have to agree with Sol here.
If you have noticed, I have avoided the troll posts. I was getting so frustrated,that it was not a pleasure to be here. The reason I love this board is the camaderie. I know that if I feel like being an idiot, you will all, for the most part, forgive me because we are one big happy family. I am all for new members to the family (sully, where are you?) but when people come on this board with the intent to stir up a political riot to further their fanatic cause, I get very pissed off. This board is my retreat. I would appreciate keeping it this way. I will never censor this board, however, it is my clear choice whether to continue being a member.
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[> Summer's over -- Masquerade, 22:19:08 10/03/01 Wed
The new season has started, and our little board will be catching the eye of many newcomers who are looking for Buffy sites and posting boards (at least I hope!). They won't know the culture of our board, or the atmosphere that we enjoy.
I think the best way to deal with this natural turn of events is to do what we always do:
• Welcome newcomers,
• Engage in level-headed reasoned discussions,
• don't feed the trolls their own medicine,
• Find the fun in stuff,
• be our creative intelligent selves,
and, generally, show by example the kind of board we like to have. Those who like that will stay, the others will get bored and fall away.
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- Marie, 01:47:55 10/04/01 Thu
I read all the threads here, every day, and I think you can usually tell a troll immediately. I never respond, but I do read the answers given by the regulars here, because they usually make some sense out of the silliness. I can't say I've noticed a great deal of real rudeness or mocking in their replies..maybe I missed something.
And the trolls never stick around for long, do they, when they realise people aren't rising. So, don't go, Sol, just don't read the threads!
M
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- rowan, 06:54:41 10/04/01 Thu
I'll add that I had my first unpleasant experience here yesterday. I felt my views about the potential meaning of Willow's actions in Bargaining (which I was trying to express objectively) were attacked on a personal level several times by different posters. This was not by anyone I recognized as a regular, but I haven't been here as frequently during the summer as I was during S5, so I don't recognize all names.
Frankly, I don't like it. But people are free to express themselves as they choose, just as I'm free not to like it. I can't change others' behavior, I can only control mine. But I'll honestly say that if it continues, I'll be taking a break from the negativity too. It disappoints me, because this is the one board that really seemed to me to be a shining example of honoring people's diverse opinions and engaging in free-spirited debate.
If as Liq suggests, it's a regular who is posting under different names (for whatever reason), that also makes me feel strange and uncomfortable.
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[> [> One of the first times I posted here... -- Marie, 08:09:46 10/04/01 Thu
...(and it took me a LONG time to venture a post) it was about Angelus, only I used the name 'Angel'. I waited with trepidation to see if anyone would reply to me, and was SO upset when the very first reply I got was the one-liner "Don't you mean Angelus?", with no comment on the actual content of my post, at all! There were other, kinder, replies, but that one hit me hard, and I didn't post again for ages. As time past, though, I came to realise that this person didn't mean to be unkind - it was just a little thoughtless (at least I hope so!), so don't let one person put you off, Rowan, there are others who would be sad to see you go.
Marie
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[> [> Rowan -- Cactus Watcher, 09:03:34 10/04/01 Thu
Although we kind of made peace yesterday, I know I contributed to the way you felt. I'm sorry for that.
Frankly, I feel like I get jumped on every other time I try to say something serious on this board. If I took it personally, I would have quit long before this.
I know I'm not the only one who posts here who has taught college. But, I can't help being a little preachy. That's what I did. I write bluntly, because while my knowledge of general philosophy is pretty bad, my grasp of formal logic is pretty good. I will go after someone's argument if I know the premises are bad. That is not supposed to be an attack on the person. But, often I get attacked on a personal level in return. Not everybody here wants to keep the debate on the same level. We all have to make allowances for that, especially me. Please everybody, don't take things I say personally. But, like everybody else, I would like people to think seriously, about the serious things I say.
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[> Confusion reigning, at least at my end. -- Wisewoman, 08:29:27 10/04/01 Thu
Okay, I'm going out on a limb here. I think this topic is important because of the level of emotional language being expressed by the posters. Words like pathetic, attacked, negativity, etc. And I'm still not getting it. And Sol is still threatening to vote with her/his feet.
I'm also confused about what people think is the issue? Sol seems to be ticked off about the Trollbot. Quite frankly, Sol created the original idea of a Trollbot, and I'd always assumed that Sol was the Trollbot. Okay, that's obviously not the case. Someone is continuing to post as the Trollbot, and some posters find it humorous, some don't. That's life. I don't think it's necessary to have a sort of Trollbot ban, but if that's what it comes down to, fine. I just really feel that Masq should be the one to dictate such a ban. Her board, her rules. I, for one, will abide by them.
I admit I have not read the thread in which rowan expresses her views about Willow's actions yet. At a quick glance that discussion doesn't appear to involve Trolls, but I could be wrong. How do we define Troll? Whose definition do we use? I had assumed that the Trolls were identifiable by their robotic nature, as Sol suggested. Now I don't know anymore. Is this in fact a different issue, one of personal attacks, rather than Trolls? Or is the issue one of negativity in general?
IME, discussion boards and groups start to deteriorate when cliques develop (as cknight mentioned earlier), or when someone or some group presumes to dictate the behaviour, attitude, and/or responses of others. This does not take the form of reasoned discussion within a specific thread where the perceived infraction occurred. This takes the form, at the least, of an announcement or a reproach, by someone or some group other than the board's owner/moderator.
Speaking personally, and within the specific thread, I feel reprimanded by Sol's comments, not a feeling I've experienced at this board before. If there was ever a place where folks did not need to be exhorted to "think before you post," this was it.
:o|
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[> [> Re: Confusion reigning, at least at my end. -- rowan, 09:07:25 10/04/01 Thu
Wisewoman, you've expressed how I felt yesterday during my posts...I was reprimanded at least 3 times by other posters. It's the first time I've experienced that, too. Maybe I should just be mature enough to shrug it off. I had planned to just lay low for a while and not say anything. Maybe that would have been the best course.
I don't get that reprimanded feeling from Sol's post today, but perhaps it's because I'm feeling much the same emotions, for a slightly different reason.
Is Mercury in retrograde? Maybe we need group therapy. ;)
Thanks for listening, all!
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[> [> [> Yup. It's that dad-blasted Mercury!! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 09:26:50 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> [> Hey guys, and my two cents -- JoRus, 11:20:16 10/04/01 Thu
We have a lot of highly educated, people here from a lot of different backgrounds. It's worth remembering that. People can have an infinitely different background/education/experience...and yet it's valid. I know that in any relationship or community you can get comfortable and just sort of forget the truth in that. I think the "hidden differences", the usually unspoken vast gulfs, sink a lot of relationships. By this I mean that when you like someone/somewhere it is natural to think that because they share many points of agreement with you, that many other issues will be agreed upon as well. And you can feel hurt or betrayed when you differ. If you're still with me here, my second point has to do with ego, frankly. I've certainly got one. Probably many posters here have one as well. Here's what I call the Lone Brillance theory ...in which most people who have exceptional intelligence in any sense, perceive themselves as the star on top of the Christmas tree, to be eventually followed by the amazed revelation that Someone Else can also be a star on another tree entirely. Just say to yourself..."It's GOOD not to be alone in the forest." Anyway, affectionate greetings, and certainly I personally never mean to hurt anyone, even when I'm opinionated and in someone's face. : )
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[> [> Re: Confusion reigning, at least at my end. -- Masquerade, 09:20:51 10/04/01 Thu
Hmmm... I'm always in a bit of a quandry when it comes to weilding the tools I have at hand--deleting posts and banning certain ISP addresses.
My only official policy is that I don't want non-Buffy advertising on the board. I do ban those ISP addresses, but haven't been deleting them. I always found it enjoyable when the posters would make the thread their own.
I hesitate to delete any post, in fact, even by those who seem to be baiting the rest of us. There have been some tense threads on this board in the past, but they gave us all something to chew on--not in a "blast the troll" way, but in our attempts to take the topic at hand and turn it into a calmer, less knee-jerk discussion.
My bottom line is--I will erase a post if I get a number of complaints about it. I prefer these complaints come in email rather than on the board where they stir up resentments.
I don't want to censor anyone's responses to posts that irk them (can we ban the word "troll" here? It creates negative attitudes just using it), but I too have felt uncomfortable by volitile emotional responses to so-called "troll" posts.
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[> Re: Sorry, Sol -- Dedalus, 09:04:14 10/04/01 Thu
*Sparks are flying. Dedalus looks up from where he is giving Trollbot a tune-up and sees Sol's post. He takes off his wielding mask and proceeds to blow his cover*
Well, as Trollbot's creator and programmer, I have to say this is most unexpected. Trollbot was only created as a self-parody of the show and the over-intellectualizing of this board of which I am a part. That's about it.
You know, contrary to stirring up trouble, Trollbot seems to be handling the trolls pretty well. They don't come back to post again and again after being slayed with love. And I think it is obvious most of them were trolls, trolls whose only purpose was to come and divert the board away from its real topics and mission statement.
Far from being "pathetic," I think Trollbot's hilarious antics are both cute and adorable. As for mocking the original post, well, some original posts deserve to be mocked. If I come up with something completely stupid, feel free to mock away. I myself get a little tired of the political correctnization of the internet. If you can't even offend trolls, what kind of a world is it? And if other people want to steer the trolling to real debates, well they can just go on ahead and do so. Trollbot isn't stopping anyone. If you want to ignore Trollbot, ignore Trollbot. If you want to tell Trollbot to f*ck off, tell Trollbot to f*ck off.
Quite frankly, on a purely personal level, some of my own greatest epiphanies have come from people mocking things I've said, those people willing to take me aside and point out, "look, you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're being a complete idiot." Sometimes that is the only thing that can get it done. These are especially helpful when a. I have no idea what I'm talking about, and b. I'm being an idiot. As George Carlin once said, "It's time to start slapping people."
However, I would like to point out that Trollbot was not invented for that purpose. Trollbot was just here to provide a little bit of laughter to potentially volatile topics. In a world where people fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of people, I find it hard to believe other people worry about being offended by some goofball on the internet. "Well, looks like someone was mean to me on the internet. Guess I'll have to go hang myself." Doh.
I certainly don't want anyone to leave, but I still want my Trollbot, though it won't be as fun now. I hate to have to come out of the bot closet, but I didn't want to be hiding from this. And far from banning Trollbot, Masq put it in the FAQ.
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[> [> Dedalus...are you Moonbeam also? -- Drizzt, 10:48:54 10/04/01 Thu
I like the trollbot myself. Humor is allways good, and hopefully I GET the joke so it is funny to me;-) In the case of the trollbot I did get it; it was just some sillyness on a board that can get TOO intillectual. Myself included...I gave myself a TTMQ of 10!
Anyway I think the Moonbeam thread was a regular that was mocking the negative reaction people have had here to "trolls" That thread was the only one here that I got a bit annoyed; but in retrospect the whole thread is funny:-)
As an aside our favorite show parodies steriotypes, in fact it was inspired by the consept of inverting the horror genra image of "dumb pretty blond killed by monster" and branched out from there. Anyone who loves the show for how it makes us question our assumptions should also love the trollbot AND trolls.
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[> [> [> Re: No ... -- Dedalus, 14:40:44 10/04/01 Thu
I would never post under a lot of different names. Especially not Moonbeam. This isn't the sixties, after all.
I've only posted under Deds and Trollbot.
I guess I shall have to retire Trollbot, or either make it less offensive. Actually, I was planning on making it more deadly to trolls, a Trollbot complete with kung-fu grip and spinning side kick. So much for that.
Love is no longer Trollbot's gift.
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[> [> [> [> Re: No ... -- Drizzt, 21:17:29 10/04/01 Thu
The trollbot did not offend ME. Provided some ammusement for me in fact;-)
Trollbot is recomended, but only do it a MAX of once per month no matter how many "potential trolls" you see. Anyone who is called a troll and meets the trollbot SHOULD be amused by it: if they are not then they either have a bad sense of humor, or they ARE a troll!
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[> I'm not quite seeing what's going on here... -- Deeva, 12:18:34 10/04/01 Thu
maybe it's cause I'm being dense or I haven't been here long enough (only since June this year) or I haven't read all the threads (my tv watching habits and something called life get in the way) but I don't get the vibe that this board is on some downward spiral. There are a ton of super-intelligent people here, that much is obvious to me. A lot of what you guys come up with is very "kaboom". Enough to put me into a bit of a stupor. I used to think that I was prone to over-thinking things and maybe jumping to conclusions that weren't there but not so much anymore. I think that's what's going on here. Now, I'm not calling anyone paranoid not at all. Just a case of a slightly over active brain.
But then maybe I'm the one being a troll? Maybe. You know that line that people like to say ever since The Sixth Sense came out. "I see stupid people. Only they don't know their stupid." That could be me. I don’t realize that I’m one of them (God, I hope I’m not!)
As for the clique action, I don’t see that or anything like it happening. I do see some people, who get along better with some, acting like friends. Seems normal. If I feel a bit intimidated by someone’s post, meaning I don’t think I have anything constructive to add, then I will stay away from them. Not afraid, just taking it in and respecting their mondo brain power. Just my 2 yuan.
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- mundusmundi, 13:50:04 10/04/01 Thu
Recently, my best friend, currently serving as a civilian history instructor on board the USS Gunston Hall, wrote with grim humor that we are currently under an old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times." Try as we might to forget, the fact is that the events from a few weeks ago are still on everybody's minds, and it seems likely that the anxiety wrought from those events is still manifesting itself in a variety of ways. Some are responding with anger and attempted provocations, others with slashing sarcasm, a few professing understandable feelings of depression, and a handful more contemplating sabbaticals. We are all feeing, as the Traveling Wilburys once sang, "beaten up and battered around." I've been smacked a bit myself, but I try (not always successfully) not to take any of this stuff personally, but as byproducts of the larger situation.
Yes, I'm tired of stepping in trollcrap too. (As for the Trollbot, *shrug* I can take it or leave it.) But it would be a mistake, I think, to overreact and put the clamps down on what essentially amounts to a tempest in a teacup. An ostensibly adult moderator at another forum typically responds to any and all hijinks with the words: "Follow the rules or get the hell off my board!" (A direct quote.) That's his/her prerogative, but I think we've proven that we can do better. Some of the most insightful posts I've read here have been OT, and for me to say that the people who post here have been a positive influence on my life would be an understatement. Everyone's like friends here, and like the Scooby Gang we should be forgiving and tolerant and not take things too seriously. And perhaps even more than the SG, we should continue to be inclusive to newbies, and treat each other with kindness, humor and forbearance.
(Note: This harmless trifle of a post isn't directed at Sol or anyone in particular, just the general thread of the conversation.:)
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[> Re: Minor Request per Trolls (marginally off-topic) -- celticross, 16:11:38 10/04/01 Thu
I'm at best an infrequent poster, mostly because I usually feel so out-classed by the rest of the posters that play wallflower. I would be very sorry to see Solitude or anyone else leave this board, because this is such an amazing intelligent place to talk about two very intelligent shows, and the loss of any poster would be a sad thing. I was so happy to find this board...this is one of the few places on the net where you can have smart conversation about BtVS and AtS without having to wade through the posts of teenage girls sighing over how hot Angel is. I for one much prefer reading people's theories about the nature of demon souls. Maybe I'm weird that way.
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[> [> We're all weird that way! : ) -- Masq, 16:24:35 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> Just to add my appreciation............................ -- Rahael, 16:52:03 10/04/01 Thu
of this great board. I don't post much here, but I read a lot!! It doesn't come over as cliquey, in fact the least of all the places I visit. It does seem like a robust forum where people are happy to disagree. Sure, people don't always respond as often as I would like them to to my tentative postings, but then I don't post earthshatteringly original stuff, just chipping in now and then. I feel I belong in spirit, lol.
In fact it confirms my faith in what a great series BtVS and AtS, that fans like you exist. Especially since in some forums people think I'm strange for using big words, or for trying to analyse the characters (why would I do that? why not just appreciate how gorgeous the actors are?!)
Btw, Dedalus, I mentioned your essay on The Goddess and the Gift, and name checked you at the Bronze Shelter. Hope that's ok!
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[> [> [> Are people still hanging at the Bronze shelter or have they moved to buffyupn.com?? -- Masq, 18:00:38 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> Re: Are people still hanging at the Bronze shelter or have they moved to buffyupn.com?? -- Rahael, 02:19:26 10/05/01 Fri
I'm still hanging at the Bronze Shelter - only place on the net I'm having conversations about Joyce, Dante in Italian and Postmodernism LOL
I suppose that some of the more irregular posters might drop away, but so far only heard complaints about the crappiness of the site.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks for the promotional push. I can always use that. :-) -- Dedalus, 08:50:52 10/05/01 Fri
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[> Sheesh, people! Chill. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 17:11:18 10/04/01 Thu
First: WW, for the love of pete, I am not reprimanding you. For that matter, I'm not going to call up a litany of examples. It's just a vibe thing on some of the more recent threads, and I for one am too blunt and honest to just simmer. I figured I'd say something, and then be able to say: I said something, and then I shut up (which is what I'll be doing once I've told you, my dear WiseWoman, to chill the hell out. You've never done anything even remotely nasty to anyone here, so step down from the worriment, k? ;-P )
Second: for any of you who aren't psychic or can read minds (that would be anyone who's not married, btw, since my understanding is that married folks read minds or something, bwahahaha), I have this personal motto that goes something like "don't say sorry, just don't do it again." I try to live by that myself. I suggested the idea of a Trollbot as a means to lighten up our board post-Sept-11 when we were getting slammed with troublemakers... and I got to see my suggested style turned on someone who's honestly just making conversation. I don't think, going back in time, that I'd take back my attempt then to lighten us up - the stars only know how badly we all needed the humor amongst us - but I think, now, it's maybe not such a good idea. My bad. I wasn't thinking - hey, it happens every now and then. Wait, it happens a lot. Yah, I say "my bad," a lot. ;-)
Third: I didn't intend that my statements would be read as a death's knell for the intelligent discussion here. I think it prevails. But there's a definite edge - notice how I unwittingly put so many on the defensive! - and there are better ways to diffuse that edge. I'd rather say something now, than wait a month and then whine that it's gotten unbearable. I've said all along I'll ignore what I don't want to respond to. Duh. I just think it's an unwelcoming atmosphere to have mockery, when we're already an intimidating group. We used to encourage lurkers to stay delurked, and to keep talking... we didn't ridicule their alias as boring, we didn't slap them by making fun of their spelling or ideas. And that's...
Fourth: for several reasons. Yeah, maybe mercury retrograde does have something to do with it. (I've seen crazier things, so who knows.) But most likely, it seems to me, we're all still recovering in our own ways from having our world rocked. We're edgy, defensive, critical, worried, anxious. We need more humor, more light-heartedness. Or so it seems to me; I hope I'm not projecting but this is what I see in the people around me every day, and in myself, so it seems reasonable that many other human beings are grappling with the same reactions and feelings, here, too.
Therefore: We need more silly threads, maybe? More laughter, in a good way. The lack of a sense of humor is a bad sign, and we need all the good signs we can get, right now. That's more than my quota of two cents, but I figured rather than let you guys roll right on and think I'm issuing ultimatums or pointing fingers or throwing a fit... that I'd try again. If this doesn't work, doesn't matter. I'm shutting up anyway. (On this thread, friends, not on the board. You've not pissed me off that much, yet!)
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[> [> Sol, my dear, consider me "on ice." LOL ;o) -- WW, 18:58:47 10/04/01 Thu
That was lovely. And it sounded just like you. Thanks.
That Mercury is some bad planet!!
;o)
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[> [> [> Hmm. Some gin, a drop of vermouth, a little WiseWoman, woo hoo! (and shaken, not stirred) .... :-) -- Solitude1056, 20:11:01 10/04/01 Thu
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[> Re: Scarey Trolls! -- bible belt, 22:40:56 10/04/01 Thu
When I found this board I just jumped right in and started posting without giving it any thought(it's something I do well). When I started reading more of the posts, I thought, "holy shit, these people are fucking geniuses, I have no business being here," but I decided to stay and post away hoping to learn something. After I learned of the trollbot I fully expected to see it comming after me. The posts on here are so eloquent and often over my head that I expect anyone hear could make fun of me and I wouldn't even get it. I guess that's kinda off your off topic topic. I just wanted to share that.
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[> [> I guess the point is... -- Wisewoman, 08:02:05 10/05/01 Fri
...anyone who wants to talk about Buffy has good and sufficient reason to be here! And certainly you have, bb!
Belated welcome ;o)
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[> [> [> Re: I'm still not getting this ... -- Dedalus, 08:59:31 10/05/01 Fri
I can only reiterate what just about everyone on here has said - this is about the last place you have to worry about going to the dogs. This is also about the last place anyone needs to be issuing ultimatums. It's totally open, and we don't really even have any divisive cliques.
Now I'm pissed off that my Trollbot cover is blown. And for nothing. See, the fact that it showed up all the time, and would have become like a permanent fixture, was a big part of the joke. Sort of like Buffybot making all those sandwiches.
And bb, trollbot is not an enforcer to keep people out. Only to keep the troll people out.
And on another note, we are not an intimidating group. We all trip over our own feet going out to welcome everyone. I got the royal treatment when I started posting back in April/May.
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[> [> Re: Ooh, I have that exact same bit of Trollbot paranoia. -- Sheri, 09:14:14 10/05/01 Fri
Especially when I reread my posts and realize that me no talk english good!
Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- Simplicity, 21:23:58 10/03/01 Wed
I noticed that Dawn's shirt was actually 07. When you remove the first number it is 7. If you follow suit on the other numbered shirts. . .it becomes 731. One digit off from the infamous 7-3-0. Perhaps this is forshadowing a bad end for the Buffster 2 years and 1 day from now. If memory serves, that is when her contract is up.
I don't know what it means exactly but I'll throw it out there.
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[> Re: Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- anom, 22:54:28 10/03/01 Wed
"If you follow suit on the other numbered shirts. . .it becomes 731. One digit off from the infamous 7-3-0. Perhaps this is forshadowing a bad end for the Buffster 2 years and 1 day from now."
Or maybe it means it's the next day (for Buffy), & the count is just picking up where it left off.
I tuned in late, & the 1st no. I saw was the "11"--wondered if it was a ref. to the WB's channel no. (in NYC, at least) till I saw "13." After all, why would there be a ref. to PBS? @>)
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[> Re: Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- OnM, 06:27:56 10/04/01 Thu
The most interesting one I've heard so far (this was over on the Cross & Stake board) was that 7, 11 and 13 are all chapters of bankruptcy! This sounds absurd at first, but the chapers are different as to being either a final dissolution of the company, a reorganization, etc. I forget which are which, so maybe someone out there can enlighten me.
Assume, though, that you ascribe the actions to the respective characters. Death? Serious changes?
Fot my own little what-its-worth, I will note that they are all prime numbers, divisible only by themselves and 1.
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[> [> Re: numeric symbolism -- Shiver, 07:27:40 10/04/01 Thu
in the Bible: (from here http://www.logon.org/english/s/p007.html)
Seven (7) denotes spiritual perfection. It reflects the work of the Holy Spirit as the power of God as a hallmark does. It is the mark of life and divides the periods of reproduction in animal life. It is the number of rest and the cycle of rest in the jubilee. It is also the period of return to God in rest and return to His law and that is why the Law is read in the Sabbath year of the cycle.
Eleven (11) is sometimes seen as disorder, but it is incompleteness as it is half the Hebrew alphabet and it is one short of twelve, the number of the units of the divine government.
Thirteen (13) is seen as the number of the controlling or regulating unit in the government sequence. For example there were twelve tribes and the thirteenth was Levi that served the Temple. The calendar of God is regulated by the thirteenth month every seven years in the time cycle of nineteen years. Thus all rebellion seeks to take over this function as the thirteenth or controlling unit and the number 13 is often associated with Rebellion. We can see this in the first occurrence in Genesis 14:4 and the second confirming that in Genesis 17:25. Names and numbers associated with rebellion seem to have multiples of 13 involved. It is the sixth prime number and hence associated with that concept of the works of man without the completion of God, unless it is as a factor ordered by God in the system of control.
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[> I could be wrong, but I think I got it... -- Solitude1056, 21:20:03 10/04/01 Thu
I rewatched parts of Bargaining tonight. And yup, numbers on shirts. But...
Xander's shirt looked like the usual jersey, with numbers. Nothing fancy. Dawn's looked like a teenage-version of a jersey, replete with stars on either side. Willow's, however, was a number with a circle around it, and the collar was cut oddly - sort of open down, at an angle, and cut into the circle, almost into part of the number itself. That bothered me, that her shirt was somehow mangled. It just seemed like Joss to do that for a reason. So let's see.
On another thread, I just posited that if Willow is really heading down the dark path, and is already making headway as a potential big bad... then according to the Jossian system, she'd only be a "little bad." Excepting season 5, all other seasons there's been a little bad for the first half of the season. At the half-way point, that little bad is either killed or resolved somehow. (Spike, as an earlier season's little bad, was essentially "resolved" to make way for that season's big bad.)
There are twenty-two episodes in a season, which means the halfway point would be... 11.
And Xander and Anya are supposed to come to a breakout (or a wedding) somewhere around the beginning of the second half, in the spring. Say... episode 13, anyone?
Which means that perhaps there's something happening with Dawn that's of significance for her character... in episode 7. Hmm. Is that the Halloween episode?
What say, all? Could we be onto something? ;-)
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[> [> Uh. Or not. -- Solitude1056, 21:27:34 10/04/01 Thu
Ms Queller just mentioned in another thread that 11/13, is episode 7: the musical. Well, that would be in order, then, and given Xander's references to Hellmouth City, that would probably be a simpler and thus more likely explanation. Bummer. I kinda liked the idea of the numbers indicating the episodes o' importance for each. But I guess that would mean that the musical episode - and not Halloween, episode 6, I guess - is the kicker for Dawn.
The only question then, is when they determined that the Halloween episode had to be switched with the musical episode? Wasn't there something, after they'd begun filming, about when the episodes were going to air because of a change in the first episode's date? And that meant that the two would be switched? If that decision was made after the first two episodes were filmed, then the 7 would indicate what is now episode 6. And it would also mean that on 11/13, it was supposed to be 8, not 7, since the switching had to happen since the premiere's date was being pushed back a week - moving the halloween episode (after the musical one) to a week after Halloween.
Anyone know when the dates got changed, and whether they'd already started filming at that point?
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[> [> [> Re: Uh. Or not. -- OnM, 06:39:15 10/05/01 Fri
People who have been in the TV biz for awhile know that there is no way to guarantee any given air date. Therefore, it seems unlikely Joss or Noxon would use the number to indicate a specific date. So, SOl, I think you are more likely to be right in thwt they could be ep #'s. That way, the specific date wouldn't really be relevant, just the 'chapter' of the overall 'novel'.
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[> Re: Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- Isabel, 22:38:39 10/04/01 Thu
These are all cool ideas. I got the all prime numbers angle and the biblical analysis is really deep.
All I could come up with was 7 & 11 are good dice rolls in Craps. Also, Parcheesi, I think, encourages 7, 11 or doubles. I know you can't roll a 13, so that falls flat, but 7 & 11 are also considered lucky numbers and 13 typically isn't. (I have a friend who will not spend just $13 for anything and will give away money to not have just $13 in her wallet.) Conversely, I know people, myself included, who consider 13 a positive, lucky number for themselves because it is so disliked generally. 13 is also a symbolic number for the U.S. because of the 13 original colonies. (I suppose that's a split decision on whether it's lucky. It was lucky for the colonists, not lucky for the British.) ;)
What's my point? I don't know. Maybe the costume designer liked the guy selling number shirts? Maybe we'll know in 8 months or so.
Every Slayer...Death Wish? -- Amber, 00:37:04 10/04/01 Thu
Last season we saw Spike tell Buffy that every slayer has a death wish, and ultimately that's what gets them killed in battle.
Now Buffy's back and she's been dead, in essence she's faced the death wish and found out what's on the other side. So what happens now, does it make her a more effective slayer, or less effective?
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I thought I'd pose the question out of curiosity.
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[> Re: Every Slayer...Death Wish? -- celticross, 06:20:30 10/04/01 Thu
I don't know if Buffy ever really had a death wish in the sense that Spike meant. She didn't die in The Gift because she really wanted to and know what it was like, she died because it was her life or someone else's. She was making a sacrifice. I think her main reaction to being alive again will be a sense that her sacrifice was cheapened. She DIED for her sister, and for the world, and now she's been forced back? She told Dawn the hardest thing to do in the world is live in it, and now she has to do that again.
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[> [> Re: Every Slayer...Death Wish? -- Shiver, 07:21:18 10/04/01 Thu
I disagree - Buffy's mood had been increasingly depressed as the season went on. She told Giles she thought she had forgotten how to love and being the Slayer was making her "hard". She was catatonic with grief just a couple of eps before, when Glory took Dawn. I think Buffy was really at a point where being Buffy was just a huge burden to bear and her entire attitude changed when she realized she could dive off the tower and not only save the world, and Dawn, but find peace.
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[> [> [> Life Wish -- Kerri, 10:59:52 10/04/01 Thu
"I think Buffy was really at a point where being Buffy was just a huge burden to bear and her entire attitude changed when she realized she could dive off the tower and not only save the world, and Dawn, but find peace."
As I've said in other posts I think that she had this mentality last season until she was on the tower with Dawn-then she realized she didn't want to die-she wanted to live. She doesn't bring death-she brings life. She understood love. At the end of The Gift Buffy understood and found peace-not in death but in life. In Bargaining Buffy returned to the tower looking for what she had found-but she couldn't find it-its hidden inside her. That is really, to me, what made bargaining so sad. She lost the peace that was once there. Look at Buffy's face as she stands on the tower in The Gift, and as she stands there in bargaining-that says it all.
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[> [> [> [> Ambiguity -- Cactus Watcher, 14:26:42 10/04/01 Thu
I think one of the great things about Bargaining is that it seems to support both Shiver's and Kerri's positon. There is the sense of lost peace. On the tower I think it is almost as if she misses both death and life. I felt like she was asking herself both 'Why did I do it?' and 'Why am I here?' To me the most emotional moment was when Dawn hugs the real Buffy, and there is only a distance glaze in Buffy's eyes.
Titles and what they mean in the Buffyverse (*spoilers*) -- Shiver, 06:26:48 10/04/01 Thu
I've always spent time after an episode mulling over the title and figuring out why that particular name was chosen for the ep.
For example in this one we have several surface examples of bargaining: Anya trying to get Xander to admit their engagement. Dawn pleading with Buffy to get off the tower. Willow's whole resurrection spell and suffering through her testing is bargaining with Osirus to release the soul of Buffy.
But of course there are always layers that go deeper in the Buffyverse. Anyone have any further examples of how the eppy got its title?
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[> My idea, it's sort stretching it...(spoilers) -- penjorgensen, 08:45:21 10/04/01 Thu
After watching the episode and speculating from the sundry chatters that Willow may end up "bad" sometime this season, I took the title of Bargaining to infer that the Scoobs have ultimately just traded the life of Willow for Buffy. More so in the sense that Willow may meet a grim fate at the hand of the Slayer down the road...that's a pretty steep bargain, methinks. (Told you I was stretching it...)
On a tangent, I have always thought the episode titles for Buffy were very insightful and conveyed an excellent sense of the theme of the episode without being contrived or beat-you-over-the-head obvious as many other shows are.
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[> [> Stages of grief (spoilers) -- Lunarchickk, 12:03:24 10/04/01 Thu
Here's another idea to throw on the fire: Bargaining is the third in a widely accepted theory about the stages of grieving. (I'm not an expert in this, so I might be inexact on the psych details...) The first is denial (as in being unable to accept the death); the second, anger, is directed at the Powers that Be, the deceased, the survivor, etc. The third is bargaining -- the bereaved bargains with the heavens, "please, I'll be good, just bring him/her back; please, I'll do anything." The fourth stage is depression (pretty much as it sounds like) and the fifth is acceptance (when life slowly begins to go on -- sort of like Angel in "Heartthrob").
We saw Giles realizing that he had to move on (or, actually, back to England); Anya, ready to assume leadership of the shop and announce her engagement; Tara, hinting to Willow that perhaps the spell didn't work because it wasn't meant to be; and Spike trying to get through to Dawn that "we're on our own now" -- all somewhat accepting the fact, albeit unwillingly, that Buffy is (was) gone. But on the other extreme, we saw Xander, shaking his head at Anya, no, don't tell them just yet, wait, wait and see what happens with the spell.
But it was Willow who most painfully refused to accept her death. After she believed the spell to have failed, and howled, "she's really gone" -- it just seemed so clear that until that moment, she had been clinging to the belief that Buffy would come back, had to come back, could not really be dead. And it is Willow, hunched over Buffy's grave in the torment of her "tests," who showed us the literal stage of bargaining: Whatever it takes, whatever I have to endure, I'll do it. Just bring her back.
And the consequences? I have to agree with whoever said, next week never seemed so far away!
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[> [> [> EXCELLENT!!! -- Shiver, 12:16:43 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> [> Re: Stages of grief (spoilers) -- Humanitas, 17:10:50 10/04/01 Thu
And of course the clearest bit of bargaining of all: Dawn on the tower "Please, I'll do better, just don't go!"
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Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- Simplicity, 21:23:58 10/03/01 Wed
I noticed that Dawn's shirt was actually 07. When you remove the first number it is 7. If you follow suit on the other numbered shirts. . .it becomes 731. One digit off from the infamous 7-3-0. Perhaps this is forshadowing a bad end for the Buffster 2 years and 1 day from now. If memory serves, that is when her contract is up.
I don't know what it means exactly but I'll throw it out there.
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[> Re: Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- anom, 22:54:28 10/03/01 Wed
"If you follow suit on the other numbered shirts. . .it becomes 731. One digit off from the infamous 7-3-0. Perhaps this is forshadowing a bad end for the Buffster 2 years and 1 day from now."
Or maybe it means it's the next day (for Buffy), & the count is just picking up where it left off.
I tuned in late, & the 1st no. I saw was the "11"--wondered if it was a ref. to the WB's channel no. (in NYC, at least) till I saw "13." After all, why would there be a ref. to PBS? @>)
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[> Re: Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- OnM, 06:27:56 10/04/01 Thu
The most interesting one I've heard so far (this was over on the Cross & Stake board) was that 7, 11 and 13 are all chapters of bankruptcy! This sounds absurd at first, but the chapers are different as to being either a final dissolution of the company, a reorganization, etc. I forget which are which, so maybe someone out there can enlighten me.
Assume, though, that you ascribe the actions to the respective characters. Death? Serious changes?
Fot my own little what-its-worth, I will note that they are all prime numbers, divisible only by themselves and 1.
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[> [> Re: numeric symbolism -- Shiver, 07:27:40 10/04/01 Thu
in the Bible: (from here http://www.logon.org/english/s/p007.html)
Seven (7) denotes spiritual perfection. It reflects the work of the Holy Spirit as the power of God as a hallmark does. It is the mark of life and divides the periods of reproduction in animal life. It is the number of rest and the cycle of rest in the jubilee. It is also the period of return to God in rest and return to His law and that is why the Law is read in the Sabbath year of the cycle.
Eleven (11) is sometimes seen as disorder, but it is incompleteness as it is half the Hebrew alphabet and it is one short of twelve, the number of the units of the divine government.
Thirteen (13) is seen as the number of the controlling or regulating unit in the government sequence. For example there were twelve tribes and the thirteenth was Levi that served the Temple. The calendar of God is regulated by the thirteenth month every seven years in the time cycle of nineteen years. Thus all rebellion seeks to take over this function as the thirteenth or controlling unit and the number 13 is often associated with Rebellion. We can see this in the first occurrence in Genesis 14:4 and the second confirming that in Genesis 17:25. Names and numbers associated with rebellion seem to have multiples of 13 involved. It is the sixth prime number and hence associated with that concept of the works of man without the completion of God, unless it is as a factor ordered by God in the system of control.
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[> I could be wrong, but I think I got it... -- Solitude1056, 21:20:03 10/04/01 Thu
I rewatched parts of Bargaining tonight. And yup, numbers on shirts. But...
Xander's shirt looked like the usual jersey, with numbers. Nothing fancy. Dawn's looked like a teenage-version of a jersey, replete with stars on either side. Willow's, however, was a number with a circle around it, and the collar was cut oddly - sort of open down, at an angle, and cut into the circle, almost into part of the number itself. That bothered me, that her shirt was somehow mangled. It just seemed like Joss to do that for a reason. So let's see.
On another thread, I just posited that if Willow is really heading down the dark path, and is already making headway as a potential big bad... then according to the Jossian system, she'd only be a "little bad." Excepting season 5, all other seasons there's been a little bad for the first half of the season. At the half-way point, that little bad is either killed or resolved somehow. (Spike, as an earlier season's little bad, was essentially "resolved" to make way for that season's big bad.)
There are twenty-two episodes in a season, which means the halfway point would be... 11.
And Xander and Anya are supposed to come to a breakout (or a wedding) somewhere around the beginning of the second half, in the spring. Say... episode 13, anyone?
Which means that perhaps there's something happening with Dawn that's of significance for her character... in episode 7. Hmm. Is that the Halloween episode?
What say, all? Could we be onto something? ;-)
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[> [> Uh. Or not. -- Solitude1056, 21:27:34 10/04/01 Thu
Ms Queller just mentioned in another thread that 11/13, is episode 7: the musical. Well, that would be in order, then, and given Xander's references to Hellmouth City, that would probably be a simpler and thus more likely explanation. Bummer. I kinda liked the idea of the numbers indicating the episodes o' importance for each. But I guess that would mean that the musical episode - and not Halloween, episode 6, I guess - is the kicker for Dawn.
The only question then, is when they determined that the Halloween episode had to be switched with the musical episode? Wasn't there something, after they'd begun filming, about when the episodes were going to air because of a change in the first episode's date? And that meant that the two would be switched? If that decision was made after the first two episodes were filmed, then the 7 would indicate what is now episode 6. And it would also mean that on 11/13, it was supposed to be 8, not 7, since the switching had to happen since the premiere's date was being pushed back a week - moving the halloween episode (after the musical one) to a week after Halloween.
Anyone know when the dates got changed, and whether they'd already started filming at that point?
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[> [> [> Re: Uh. Or not. -- OnM, 06:39:15 10/05/01 Fri
People who have been in the TV biz for awhile know that there is no way to guarantee any given air date. Therefore, it seems unlikely Joss or Noxon would use the number to indicate a specific date. So, SOl, I think you are more likely to be right in thwt they could be ep #'s. That way, the specific date wouldn't really be relevant, just the 'chapter' of the overall 'novel'.
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[> Re: Some thoughts on those numerical shirts *spoilers* and speculation for Bargaining -- Isabel, 22:38:39 10/04/01 Thu
These are all cool ideas. I got the all prime numbers angle and the biblical analysis is really deep.
All I could come up with was 7 & 11 are good dice rolls in Craps. Also, Parcheesi, I think, encourages 7, 11 or doubles. I know you can't roll a 13, so that falls flat, but 7 & 11 are also considered lucky numbers and 13 typically isn't. (I have a friend who will not spend just $13 for anything and will give away money to not have just $13 in her wallet.) Conversely, I know people, myself included, who consider 13 a positive, lucky number for themselves because it is so disliked generally. 13 is also a symbolic number for the U.S. because of the 13 original colonies. (I suppose that's a split decision on whether it's lucky. It was lucky for the colonists, not lucky for the British.) ;)
What's my point? I don't know. Maybe the costume designer liked the guy selling number shirts? Maybe we'll know in 8 months or so.
First Anniversary Posting Party -- Jonathan (part one -- Through Earshot) -- Malandanza, 06:50:00 10/04/01 Thu
Jonathan – Through Earshot
Buffy: Besides, prison, you know, it's a lot like high school, only instead of noogies –
(Earshot)
From the earliest episodes of BtVS, particularly episodes like "The Pack" and "Out of Mind, Out of Sight", up through "Earshot", Joss’ vision of High School life has been clear. In SHS, the law of the jungle prevails – the most powerful, most brutal members of the student body dominate the weaker members. There is a definite social hierarchy and each student knows his place in it. Jonathan’s place is at the very bottom.
But perhaps hierarchy is not quite the proper word. Caste might be more appropriate. There is very little mobility between the different levels – as we see in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" when social philosopher, Cordelia Chase, explains the rules to newcomer Buffy.
Cordelia: You wanna fit in here, the first rule is: know your losers. Once you can identify them all by sight (glances after Willow) they're a lot easier to avoid. (Welcome to the Hellmouth)
Downward movement is certainly possible. Buffy began her Sunnydale existence in the upper echelon – with Cordelia taking her in hand – but Buffy quickly found herself relegated to the lower caste after continuing to associate with the untouchables of SHS.
Buffy: Why don't we start with, 'Hi, I'm Buffy,' and, uh, then let's segue directly into me asking you for a favor. (sits next to her) It doesn't involve moving, but it does involve hanging out with me for a while.
Willow: But aren't you hanging out with Cordelia?
Buffy: I can't do both?
Willow: Not legally.
(Welcome to the Hellmouth)
Cordelia does try to warn Buffy about violating the mores of SHS:
Cordelia: (to Buffy) I don't mean to interrupt your downward mobility, but I just wanted to tell you that you won't be meeting Coach Foster, the woman with the chest hair, because gym was canceled due to the *extreme* dead guy in the locker. (Welcome to the Hellmouth)
Buffy ignores Cordelia’s warnings and continues to associate with Xander and Willow. Cordelia understands SHS society very well and, even when she is drawn toward Buffy and her friends, she is sure to distance herself when her reputation could be at risk.
Cordelia: Look, um, I didn't get a chance to say anything yesterday with the coronation and everything... but, um, I guess I just wanted to say thank you, all of you.
Xander: That's funny, 'cause she *looks* like Cordelia.
Buffy elbows him in the chest.
Cordelia: You really helped me out yesterday, and you didn't have to. So, thank you.
Buffy: It's okay.
Willow: Listen, we were gonna grab lunch in a minute if you wanted to...
Mitch: (comes up behind Cordelia) Whoa, whoa. You're not hangin' with these losers, are you?
Cordelia: Uhhh! Are you kidding? Heh! (takes his arm and leaves) I was just being charitable. Helping them with their fashion problems. Heh. You think I really felt like joining *that* social leper colony? Puh-leeease!
(Out of Mind, Out of Sight)
While Willow is momentarily confused by Cordelia’s overtures and thinks that Cordelia’s civility is a sign that she and her friends have moved up in society, she is quickly disabused of this notion. But no matter how far a person sinks in the SHS hierarchy, it is always possible to sink further.
Cordelia: You know, we've never really been close, which is nice, 'cause I don't really like you that much, but... you have on occasion saved the world and stuff, so I'm gonna... do you a favor.
Buffy: And this great favor is...
Cordelia: I'm gonna give you some advice. Get over it.
Buffy: Excuse me?
Cordelia: Whatever is causing the Joan Collins 'tude, deal with it. Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever, but get over it. 'Cause pretty soon you're not even gonna have the loser friends you've got now.
(When She was Bad)
This episode is not the sole instance of Buffy’s regret for the popular world she left when she became the slayer: periodically, she reveals that she is just as conscious of social distinctions between herself and the people beneath her, as in this incident when Joyce suggests that Buffy work for the yearbook:
Joyce: I was, uh, photo editor. I got to be on every page, made me look much more popular than I was.
Buffy: And have you seen the kids that do yearbook? Nerds pick on them.
(The Witch)
Buffy also attempts to reclaim her popularity in Homecoming and reminisces with Cordelia about when she was popular in LA. But even Cordelia must live and die by the rules she helps to enforce. She moves downward – by dating Xander (and, later, by her fall from affluence) she forever loses her treasured place at the top of SHS society.
Theoretically, upward movement is possible. Had Amy or Buffy become cheerleaders, they would have joined the elite. When SHS swim team begins to win meets, the swimmers enjoy a sudden increase in popularity:
Xander: I mean, look at that. (indicates them) Dodd McAlvy. Last month he's the freak with Jicama breath who waxes his back. He wins a few meets and suddenly inherits the cool gene?
Similarly, when Xander joins the winning swim team, he becomes more desirable in Cordelia’s eyes. Social climbing is not without its risks, however, as Jonathan discovers when he fails to qualify for the swim team in "Go Fish" because he’s asthmatic. At a beach-front party Jonathan is punished for his presumption with a little poetic justice from his would-be teammates:
Jonathan: Somebody help me!
Buffy and Cameron both turn to look. Cut into the drink tub looking up through the ice floating on the surface. Jonathan's face gets pushed into the water and shaken around. Cut to Dodd harassing him. He pulls Jonathan's head back out of the tub and holds him back by the hair.
Dodd: Come on, Jonny, you gotta hold your breath longer than that if you ever wanna make the team! Hey, somebody time him!
(Go Fish)
But it is Jonathan’s activities that draw the attention of the predators to him; had he been content with his place in SHS society, he would not have been attacked. While these High School distinctions cease to matter in the real world, College can act as an extension of High School – as Willow discovers in "Fear, Itself." In spite of her cool boyfriend, new haircut, burgeoning supernatural powers and new clothes (not from Sears) she remains "Captain of the Nerd Squad."
**************************************
Xander: Well, every school has 'em. So, you start a new school, you get your desks, some blackboards and some mean kids.
(The Pack)
Why are the "mean kids" allowed to run amok in the public schools? While Principal Synder actually lends his support to the elite jocks, he does try to eliminate some of the miscreants. Consider his treatment of Sheila (who stabbed a horticulture teacher with pruning shears and was smoking in 5th grade – School Hard) and Buffy – the students who had the worst records at SHS. He was unable to expel them. Buffy’s crimes go far beyond merely being tardy as the result of her slayer duties – she frequently skips class altogether (as we see in "Bad Girls" and "Bad Eggs") for no good reason. Additionally, during her stay at SHS, she is accused of murder (Kendra and Ted), she gets into physical confrontations (like her attack on Larry in "Halloween") and is on the scene of the "drug bust" in GD1. Principal Snyder does expel Buffy after she trespasses on school property, crosses a police line and takes a sword from the library (with which she briefly threatens Snyder). In spite of deserving the expulsion she receives, Buffy is back in school the next fall. Principals have no real authority – lawyers and politicians (like Joyce’s friends on the school board) make the final decisions. Even a well-meaning principal (like Principal Flutie from season one) cannot make the school safe. There is little incentive for a member school body to report miscreant students to authority figures who can do nothing about the problem students. Indeed, reporting the "mean kids" would only bring further abuse upon the heads of the victims. So, it is not surprising when Lance fails to report Kyle and his friends (and, in fact, covers for them) to Principal Flutie in "The Pack." Additionally, there is the perception (at least in America) that an informant is worse than the people upon whom he informs. When Buffy and Angel physically abuse Willy and Merle, we are not shocked; the informants get what they deserve. In public schools, the disrepute of the "tattletale" begins early – perhaps as early as kindergarten. By High School, students fleeing to the impotent authorities would quickly find themselves at the very bottom rung of the social ladder, ritually abused by their superiors, without even the sympathies of their fellow victims to sustain them.
**************************************
Jonathan: Somebody help me! (Bad Eggs & Go Fish)
Jonathan has bit parts in several episodes. Whether he is being used to humiliate Cordelia:
Cordette: You know what you have to do. Start dating. Get back on the horse.
Cordelia: Oh, absolutely! I am ready to ride!
Harmony: Then I have just the stallion. He's *so* you.
She leads her over to the outside stairs where Jonathan is sitting, nursing a soft drink. He is taken aback by the sudden attention, and looks around to see if they didn't really mean someone else, but there is no one else. Cordelia realizes she's been had.
Harmony: (giggles) I'm pretty sure he won't cheat on you. At least not for a while. Plus, he's got a kill moped.
(Wish)
or is being held hostage by a rogue cop,
Patrice grabs Jonathan as a hostage, pulls out a short blade and threatens him with it. The two girls watch her slowly back toward the door at the end of the hall with the boy in tow. Halfway there she drops Jonathan and makes a dash for the door…
Jonathan: W-was that a demonstration?
(What’s My Line, part 2)
he is typically a victim (and a clueless victim, at that). But why Jonathan? What makes him different from any of the other victims? Most of BtVS social outcasts have an after-school-special feel about them. We see Lance being picked on by the mean kids and we see Marcie ignored, but we also discover that they are both sensitive artists – if only they had been given a chance. What separates Jonathan from the other victims is that he is an unsympathetic figure. He has no special abilities that we can admire. He is not smart, like Willow, or funny, like Xander. He is also ungrateful when Buffy rescues him from the Jocks in "Go Fish" (Xander was, as well, when rescued from Larry – but Xander hadn’t been screaming for help). He has a mercenary streak:
Buffy: You know, Jonathan, I've always felt a special bond between you and me.
Jonathan: (with his mouth full) Cordelia gave me six bucks. (they stop walking) That buys a *whole* lotta cupcakes. (takes another bite)
(Homecoming)
He sells his vote to Cordelia, but is willing to listen to a counter-offer from Buffy. When Jonathan isn’t shown as a victim, we are invited to laugh at him. He is the only person at SHS who Willow can intimidate as we see in her interrogation scenes:
The room's dark, except for a desk lamp. Jonathan sits alone near the front of the room. Willow sits on the edge of her desk, and stares at him for several beats.
WILLOW: So, you tried out for the swim team twice and never made it?
JONATHAN: I'm asthmatic. I couldn't keep up.
WILLOW: You resented it, didn't you?
JONATHAN: Maybe.
WILLOW: You hated being pushed around by Dodd and the others.
JONATHAN: So?
WILLOW: You wanted revenge, didn't you? Didn't you?!
JONATHAN: Yeah. Okay. I did!
Willow smiles from ear to ear, a little cocky. Now moving in for the kill.
(Go Fish)
and
Jonathan, utterly confused, sits in the darkened room at the table facing a desk lamp.
Willow stands up and turns the lamp head toward him. He pulls back and squints into the light. The scene becomes a reprise of the interrogation in "Go Fish".
(Earshot)
When Giles suggests to Buffy that she might go out on a date with Jonathan to improve his self-esteem after his near suicide, she is incredulous:
BUFFY Oh come on! What am I, Saint Buffy? He's like three feet tall!
GILES I'm glad to see you've recovered from your psychic encounter more or less intact.
(Earshot)
Even when he is seeking revenge, Jonathan is ridiculous – there is a bit of Dostoyevsky’s Underground Man in him. His revenge seems significant to him, but goes unnoticed by the people he is revenging himself upon:
WILLOW: So you delved into the black arts and conjured up a hellbeast from the ocean's depths to wreak your vengeance.
JONATHAN squints at her.
WILLOW: (weakly) Didn't you?
JONATHAN: What? No, I snuck in yesterday and peed in the pool.
Willow's smile slowly fades.
WILLOW: disappointed) Oh. (then, disgusted) Ew.
Although Jonathan is easy to laugh at and hard to sympathize with, there are moments when he reveals how bad his life at SHS is. He desperately wishes to be part of a normal high school life, yet cannot find any clique that will accept him. He hangs out at social gatherings (we’ve see him at The Bronze, at a beachfront party and at Buffy’s welcome back party), but always alone. Buffy is the closest thing he has to a friend, yet she cannot even remember his name:
Buffy: Great. Thanks. Anybody else want to weigh in here? (sees Jonathan) How about you by the dip?
Jonathan freezes in the middle of bringing a chip laden with dip to his mouth and looks around nervously at everyone suddenly staring at him.
Jonathan: No, thanks. I'm good.
(Dead Man’s Party)
This sentiment is highlighted in "Earshot" when Buffy runs into Jonathan in the lunchroom and "hears" him thinking "she doesn’t even know I’m here." For Jonathan, Sartre is right, "Hell is other people" – at least in High School, so it is no great shock that he ends up armed and suicidal in a tower overlooking the school. Buffy confronts him, using her recent insight into the psyches of her fellow SHS students:
JONATHAN: You think I won't use this?
BUFFY: I don't know Jonathan. (takes a step forward) I just- JONATHAN (Lurches back from her, aims the gun straight at her) Stop doing that!
BUFFY: Doing what?
JONATHAN: Stop saying my name like we're friends! We're not friends! You all think I'm an idiot! A short idiot!
BUFFY (matter-of-factly) I don't. I don't think about you much at all. Nobody here really does. Bugs you, doesn't it. You have all this pain, and all these feelings and nobody's really paying attention.
JONATHAN You think I just want attention?
BUFFY No. I think you're up in the clock tower with a high-powered rifle because you wanna blend in. Believe it or not, Jonathan, I understand about the pain.
JONATHAN Oh right. Cuz the burden of being beautiful and athletic, that's a crippler.
BUFFY You know what? I was wrong. You are an idiot. My life happens to, on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it. Sometimes more than I can handle. And it's not just mine. Every single person down there is ignoring your pain because they're too busy with their own.
Jonathan lowers the rifle more. Buffy steps toward the window. She looks down at the Quad below.
BUFFY The beautiful ones. The popular ones. The guys that pick on you. Everyone.
Jonathan slowly moves up behind her to see what she sees. He steps up right next to her.
BUFFY If you could hear what they were feeling. The loneliness. The confusion. It looks quiet down there. It's not. It's deafening.
(Earshot)
Buffy defense of the popular crowd resembles Cordelia’s comments from Season One:
Cordelia: (stops Buffy) Hey! You think I'm never lonely because I'm so cute and popular? I can be surrounded by people and be completely alone. It's not like any of them really know me. I don't even know if they like me half the time. People just want to be in a popular zone. Sometimes when I talk, everyone's so busy agreeing with me, they don't hear a word I say.
Buffy: Well, if you feel so alone, then why do you work so hard at being popular?
Cordelia: Well, it beats being alone all by yourself.
(Out of Mind, Out of Sight)
In the Buffyverse High School is an awful experience no matter who you are; however, it is it is not one of the popular crowd that is up in the tower, ready to die. But Buffy has made an impression on Jonathan; he understands for the first time that he is not alone.
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[> Re: First Anniversary Posting Party -- Jonathan (part two -- Superstar) -- Malandanza, 07:38:31 10/04/01 Thu
Jonathan – Superstar
After Earshot, Jonathan is a changed man. He is the one who gives Buffy the Class Protector Award and makes a short speech thanking her for making "the Class of '99 [have] the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history." (The Prom) He is also on hand during GD2, to help with both the battle preparations and the actual battle:
Oz and Willow are hoisting a sack of fertilizer, handing it over to JONATHAN and LARRY. They put it in a shopping cart with a bunch of others.
OZ: Put these with the others. And don't touch anything.
LARRY: We got it.
JONATHAN: What do we do then?
OZ: Nothing.
WILLOW: Just relax, have a good time.
JONATHAN: (nervously) Uh, okay...
(and later)
Amidst the carnage, we see our kids: Willow, Oz, Cordelia, all engaging. Jonathan also managing to hold his own.
And then everyone goes off to college or out into the real world to work. So where does this leave Jonathan?
WILLOW Fantasy's are fun, aren't they Jonathan?
JONATHAN Uh... I guess.
WILLOW We all have fantasies that we're powerful, more respected. Where people pay attention to us.
JONATHAN Uh... maybe.
WILLOW But sometimes the fantasy isn't enough, is it Jonathan? Sometimes we have to make it so people don't ignore us. Make them pay attention. You know what I'm talking about, don't you?
(Earshot)
(Note: all remaining quotes are from the shooting script for Superstar)
Jonathan uses an augmentation spell to make himself "the best of everything, everyone's ideal." While it is interesting to see what Jonathan wished for, it is also of interest to note what he did not wish for and to see the difference in the manner in which Buffy is treated by her friends and enemies.
Jonathan is rich, famous, athletic and brilliant – all the things he wasn’t in High School. He is also the de facto head of the Scooby Gang and a special consultant to the Initiative. He is actually a better leader of the Scoobies than Buffy or Giles has been – before attacking a nest of vampires, he has Giles verify that nothing unusual is going on. He also researches the vamp nest to find out all the entrances before entering. As an Initiative consultant, he quickly figures out how Adam works (the nuclear supply) even though "the design attempts to hide it." And he is always working to boost the morale of his troops with encouraging little remarks:
(to the Initiative soldiers) "This is a well-trained group and I believe
in you. Trust me, we're just about ready to take this guy by surprise."
(to Buffy) You got two of them and that second one was ready for you. You should feel pretty good
(to Giles, Re: Chess Game) The Nimzowitsch Defense. Let's see if I remember...(moves a piece) Uh-huh... mate in four. You almost got me, Rupert.
Jonathan does not abuse his new abilities; he does not become one of the jocks in High School who tortured him. He has the power to do good and he uses that power liberally. In particular, his relationship with Buffy is striking. He could have made Buffy his personal slave girl (like the statuesque twin Swedish girls he keeps at his mansion), but instead acts as her confidant and mentor. He is able to relate to her and advise her in a manner that her real friends cannot. Giles has taken a laissez faire attitude towards Buffy’s personal life, Willow gives bad advice (she pushes Buffy into relationships, getting vicarious thrill from Buffy’s fledgling romances) and Xander cannot seem to talk to Buffy about such matters without lecturing and scolding. Jonathan understands Buffy; he knows exactly how to help best (being omniscient doesn’t hurt):
BUFFY: It's all Faith's fault. She's like poison. No, worse, like acid that eats through everything. Or maybe a bomb. The point is, everything's going great with Riley and then she comes along and messes it all up.
JONATHAN: Buffy, you know what I think? I don't think this is about you being angry with Faith. I think you're angry with Riley.
Jonathan holds eye-contact with Buffy while he quickly signs an autographed book for a FAN.
BUFFY: Riley?
JONATHAN: Sure. I mean, you have this amazing connection with him. And
then at the one moment when it matters most, he looks into your eyes and he doesn't even see it's not you looking back at him.
…
BUFFY: Maybe I have been blaming him? How do I get past it? What, what if it's too late? What if, after all this, what if he doesn't want me anymore?
JONATHAN: He does. It may not be easy, Buffy, but you guys are special together. That's worth a little hard work.
He also speaks to Riley about the incident, effecting a reconciliation that lasts beyond the duration of his augmentation spell. Whatever his faults, Jonathan is a true friend to Buffy during Superstar; he genuinely cares about her problems and tries (and succeeds) to help. When Buffy reproaches him in the aftermath:
BUFFY: Jonathan, you get why they're mad, right? Not just the Monster.
People didn't like being, you know, the actors in your little sock puppet theater.
Jonathan’s response is genuine.
JONATHAN: You weren't! You weren't socks! We were friends.
The friendship with Buffy is more important to Jonathan than all the other gifts and abilities that came with the augmentation spell – he is ultimately unwilling to sacrifice Buffy to retain his position, and, in fact, help her to defeat the monster even though it means losing everything – and almost costs him his life:
Suddenly, JONATHAN GETS TO HIS FEET... AND LAUNCHES HIMSELF INTO A HUGE FLYING TACKLE. HE HITS THE MONSTER.
Jonathan and the Monster are both carried over the edge, falling into the chasm.
Of course, Buffy saves him at the last moment.
Also in evidence is how badly Buffy is treated by her friends and enemies now that she’s overshadowed by Jonathan. She is no longer THE Slayer – she’s just one of Jonathan’s "fluffy battle kittens." There is a decided lack of respect in her interactions with others:
SPIKE: Ooh. Semi-harsh language from Betty. You're feisty when the big guy's standing beside you.
Spike runs a finger down the side of Buffy's face, then runs it caressingly across her throat.
SPIKE: Someday, Sweet Slayer, I'd love to take you on. See you face the evil alone for once.
Jonathan SLAPS Spike's hand away from Buffy roughly, then PUSHES SPIKE up against the crypt wall. Spike twists, helpless against Jonathan's strength.
JONATHAN: That's enough creepy small talk. We're looking for a monster.
Also, Giles is considerably more rude towards his charge:
GILES: Yes, of course, I just -- I think you're a little out of your depth.
BUFFY: (hurt) But, I'm not --
And Anya, who now treats Buffy with as much disrespect as any other Scooby:
BUFFY: He knew something about that Monster. He was reacting to the mark-- Wait.
They wait a long beat as she thinks. Then another. Finally:
ANYA: How long do we usually wait for these things?
Superstar really is as much about Buffy as it is about Jonathan. In the new season, with Buffy back from the dead after a period of independence for the Scoobies, I expect some of the hero-worship her friends have had for her to be eroded. Buffy may end up being treated with less respect that she has been used to – in a return to the period during Superstar when she wasn’t the only superhero in town. Certainly, Willow’s powers now rival her own and Willow may not be anxious to return to her subordinate role after a period of leadership.
Finally, I couldn’t figure out how to include this quote in my essay – but it’s too funny to leave out:
BUFFY: I remember something. Giles, do you have a Jonathan Swimsuit Calendar?
GILES: No.
(a beat)
Yes.
He opens a drawer, pulls out the Jonathan Swimsuit Calendar.
GILES: It was a gift.
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[> [> Re: First Anniversary Posting Party -- Jonathan (part two -- Superstar) -- Marie, 08:35:08 10/04/01 Thu
As usual, a great Posting Party Post. It's so interesting to read these and see bits of dialogue you've forgotten. Jonathan actually had some pretty good lines, and also was the person who presented Buffy with her gold umbrella as Class Saviour (I think that was the title, anyway). So he wasn't as geeky and friendless as you might remember him - he was on the Prom Committee!
Also, although 'Superstar' is not one of my personal favourites, it was nice to see an old 'friend' from High School. Hope he comes back, along with Amy.
M
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[> [> [> Re: Prom committee -- Maladanza, 10:31:31 10/04/01 Thu
Thanks for the comments!
"[Jonathan] was the person who presented Buffy with her gold umbrella as Class Saviour (I think that was the title, anyway). So he wasn't as geeky and friendless as you might remember him - he was on the Prom Committee!
The Prom Committee isn't necessarily the road to popularity -- it's hard work. The cool people have better things to do than work hard for the benefit of their fellow classmates. Now, Chairman of the Prom Committee is a title and, as Cordelia will tell you, titles are cool -- especially if you can delegate all the work to your subservients.
But having said that, Jonathan wasn't actually on the committee at all: in "The Prom," he states that he was asked by the Prom Committee to read a note and hand out an award:
JONATHAN: This is actually a new category, first time ever, I guess there were a lot of write in ballots... and, uh, the prom committee has asked me to read this.
He produces a piece of paper, reads a little stiffly:
Why'd they choose Jonathan? To begin with, the announcers would have to be chosen from that select group of SHS students who didn't have dates to the prom, yet went anyway. Also, I expect that after having made the award, some of the members got cold feet -- what seemed like a good idea at the time became silly upon reflection. I mean, Class Protector? What's that? So they found someone who would be willing to risk potential embarrassment to hand out the award.
Besides, if Jonathan had had even one real friend at SHS, he would not have ended up in a tower, ready to kill himself.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Prom committee -- John Burwood, 11:48:49 10/04/01 Thu
Compliments on yet another excellent post to add to this board's collection. And one supplementary suggestion - Jonathan must have acquired a certain celebrity at SHS (if only fifteen minutes of attention) as a result of his suicide-with-a-gun-in-school attempt. Superstar itself played with the absurd over-the-top reactions often shown to the famous, as did BvD. This alone could explain Jonathan actually having a date to the Prom, &being invited to make the presentation. A taste of attention for 'being famous for being famous' might well have encouraged Jonathan tobe tempted to go for it again. Fame can obviously have a narcotic effect on some who taste it - more than some.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Prom committee -- John Burwood, 12:04:26 10/04/01 Thu
BTW I would especially add my admiration for the comment about Superstar Jonathan being a better friend to Buffy than the other Scoobies. I remember wondering early on why Giles did not do more to help Buffy in her struggle with schoolwork, & Willow really pushed Buffy towards both Angel & Parker. I had not really connected all that before. Really stimulating point. Touch of the Catherine Morland about Willow, I think, meaning she does not think 'what would Buffy think?', but 'what would I think if I were Buffy?'. Lack of detachment, it is called.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Prom committee -- Marie, 02:25:07 10/05/01 Fri
But having said that, Jonathan wasn't actually on the committee at all: in "The Prom," he states that he was asked by the Prom Committee to read a note and hand out an award:
This is a prime example of how two viewers can see the same thing, but differently! I saw it as: Jonathan was a member of the committee, and was asked, as a member, to speak on their behalf.
And I guess I saw it like this because (being a big softie at heart!) I liked to think that Buffy did something behind the scenes to help Jonathan after his suicide attempt, ergo, helping him to become more popular with his classmates (or at least making them realise that he needed help!).
Also, I don't feel that they would have thought the award of Class Protector silly, after some reflection - after all, this was the girl who had saved them time after time, with no thanks, for the most part. They might not have talked about it much, but they acknowledged her with their applause. And Buffy may have been gobsmacked by this, but she was also overjoyed. I wouldn't want to denigrate their actions by thinking of them as feeling silly about it.
M
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Prom committee -- Rattletrap, 06:01:35 10/05/01 Fri
I tend to agree with Maladanza. Remember "Earshot" was supposed to air only one week before "The Prom," if he'd been on the committe, he probably wouldn't have been trying to kill himself, and one week isn't really enough time to get him on.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Okay, okay! I give in! -- Marie, 06:13:41 10/05/01 Fri
Ignorant Brit who doesn't know anything about prom committees here! I still stand by my views, though - whether he was on the committee or not, I like to think they asked him to present it, not only because she saved his life (more than once), but because she drew their attention to his woes, and they wanted to make it up to him a little. (I don't ask that you agree with me, I'm just saying that's what I prefer to think!).
M
The Great Benson-less Credits Mystery! -- Rob, 10:46:52 10/04/01 Thu
As we all know, Amber Benson was once again not in the opening credits this year. And I'm sure most people, like me, have been wondering why.
But now the plot thickens...
Amber Benson did an interview for SciFi.com. In it, she said that, yes, she will be in nearly (if not) every episode this season, but that Joss has "special reasoning" behind why she is not in the opening credits. She also said, though, that he is amazing and she trusts him implicitly. So it might not be a contract or non-contract issue. Perhap it is a plot issue or something else.
Any thoughts?
Rob
P.S. If you wanna read the whole article, it's at http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/print.cgi?2001-10/02/13.00.tv
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[> Re: The Great Benson-less Credits Mystery! -- Sebastian, 10:54:32 10/04/01 Thu
I think its perhaps a way to keep us guessing. In order to divert us from something exceptionally surprising.
Which seems to be working rather well, wouldn't you say? :-)
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[> [> Re: The Great Benson-less Credits Mystery! -- Lucifer_Sponge, 11:06:18 10/04/01 Thu
I don't think there's cause for any real concern... I mean, look at what happened with Mark Blucas (and Seth Green and David B). They were all in the opening credits, but they all left relitively easily... two of them mid-season (roughly).
So, frankly, we don't need to worry, because even if she were in the opening credits she could still go at any minute.
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[> Re: The Great Benson-less Credits Mystery! -- Solitude1056, 17:23:47 10/04/01 Thu
Her name might not have shown up in the credits, but if you count the number of times her face was shown, she has almost as many appearances as the others, if not possibly more. Hmmmm.
Parlor Tricks? (Warning... this is really just pointless drivel...) -- Lucifer_Sponge, 11:27:22 10/04/01 Thu
Did anyone notice that Willow seemed a lot less powerful than she did at the tail ends of last season?
I mean... in Tough Love we see that she possesses the ability to darken the skies, cause whole buildings to shake, levitate, thicken the air or otherwise prevent people from moving, hurl bolts of energy powerful enough to hurt a God, shatter mirrors and hurl knives (both merely examples that she's had a serious boost in her telekinetic powers). In Spiral she punches Glory with telekinetic force summoned by little else than a a quick chant, and creates a force field that holds up longer than it should, even with two monks whittling away at it. In Weight of the World she enters Buffy's mind without the use of a spell. In The Gift she reverses the brain damage Glory caused Tara -without- any sort of spell or incantation, and displayed some pretty nifty telepathic abilities.
And yet, with the season opener, she seemed loads less powerful. Sure, she had a few tricks up her sleeve... but that's all they were. Tricks. She threw some sort of magical goop in a demon's face and made his claws break off. That can, to an extent, be covered by the fact that she'd just "magicked out" on the ressurection spell, but I don't know...
It's not that I'm complaining, really... I just think it's a little odd. She went from some pretty hellacious stuff to clever tricks that did little else than bide the gang some time.
By the by, asside from the axing, I'm glad to see Tara flaunting some of her own magic now. Yes, her spells all seemed magic trick-ish (though sending the ball of light to guide Willow and Xander was a very useful thing to do)... but we so rarely get to see Tara do any thing, witch-wise.
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[> Wait! I think I found my point... -- Lucifer_Sponge, 11:56:40 10/04/01 Thu
Ok, lesse here...
Ok, lets put Willow's list of accomplishments up against Tara's... because I think the spells we've seen them do are actually indicative of their personalities as well as their approaches to magic.
So, from my last post, Willow has... ... in Tough Love we see that she possesses the ability to darken the skies, cause whole buildings to shake, levitate, thicken the air or otherwise prevent people from moving, hurl bolts of energy powerful enough to hurt a God, shatter mirrors and hurl knives (both merely examples that she's had a serious boost in her telekinetic powers). In Spiral she punches Glory with telekinetic force summoned by little else than a a quick chant, and creates a force field that holds up longer than it should, even with two monks whittling away at it. In Weight of the World she enters Buffy's mind without the use of a spell. In The Gift she reverses the brain damage Glory caused Tara -without- any sort of spell or incantation, and displayed some pretty nifty telepathic abilities.
I'm only going with recent things for Willow because up until that point, her "basic spells" as Buffy said, were "only 50-50."
Tara, we've seen, helped Willow move a soda-machine telekinetically in Hush. In A New Man she helped Willow float a rose. In Who Are You she sensed Buffy wasn't Buffy, and was Willow's anchor when she gained access to the netherworld. In Superstar she blinded a monster with a cloud of smoke. In Family she cast a spell to hide her non-existant demon side (which went haywire and made everyone blind to ALL demons). In Blood Ties she helped Willow prepare for a teleportation spell. In The Gift, even though she was still... "off"... she could tell that Giles was prepared to do something he knew Buffy could never do, and she helped Willow telekinetically scatter a bunch of crazies (I don't know why this was done, as it would stand to reason Willow could have done it all on her own). And, of course, in Bargaining she fumbled a confusion spell, made a demon drop Anya, sent a ball of light to guide Willow and Xander, and caused a wall of flame to erupt in front of the biker demon to make him back away from Xander.
What I'm seeing is this...
Willow's spells seem to be based on command. Tara's seem to be based on request. To Willow, her powers are a right, and she will use them as she pleases. To Tara, her powers are a gift... one she needs to be very careful not to abuse. I think that point is illustrated by Tara's wall of flame. Had it been Willow who cast that spell, she would have set the demon himself on fire. Willow's spell would have been like she were saying to her magical forces "He's going to get Xander! Burn him up!" whereas Tara's spell seemed like she were saying "Don't let him hurt Xander!" which caused an effect that was merely indimidating.
Willow's power is projective... Tara's seems receptive. So, where Tara asks to have Anya returned, Willow would have commanded her to be released from the demon's grasp. Where Tara asks a Goddess to send a guide for her friends, Willow would have created a guide herself.
Aaaand I think I'm done with conterproductive, pointless babbling for the day.
~Sponge
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[> [> Re: Wait! I think I found my point... -- Shaglio, 06:54:02 10/05/01 Fri
This reminds me of the computer RPG games I play. In games like Baldur's Gate I and II and Icewind Dale, the offensive magics (Magic Missle, Fireball, Sleep, etc.) are shown in red, the defensive magics (Protection From Fire, Cure Minor Wounds, Bless, etc.) are shown in blue, and the neutral magics (Haste, Identify, Teleport, etc.) are shown in white.
What does this have to do with BtVS, you ask? I'll tell you what I think it means: Willow seems to do more of the red offensive magic and Tara seems to do more of the blue defensive magic and white neutral magic. Like Sponge said above, Willow would attack the biker that was about to attack Xander, while Tara would try to protect Xander from the biker that was about to attack him. Same result, but diferent ways to accomplish it - and possibly diferent karmic consequences.
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[> Not pointless, I see your point -- vampire hunter D, 12:45:56 10/04/01 Thu
I think that Tara's style is much more in tune with what Wicca teach. Willow's style seems more like what we see evil sorcerors do. Tara's magic seems to be more in tune with the Light Side of the Force, while Willow is leaning way to close to the Dark Side (sorry, but my concept of good and evil is stronly influenced by George Lucas and the code of the Jedi). Says alot about what Willow's really like. And it will be her undoing.
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny
-Jedi Master Yoda
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[> [> Making much sense you are, Sponge and D! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:26:49 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> Re: Not pointless, I see your point -- Humanitas, 17:19:34 10/04/01 Thu
I think your analysis is correct, but remember - in this one instance, Yoda was wrong. Vader came back to the light at the very end. ;)
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[> Re: Parlor Tricks? (Warning... this is really just pointless drivel...) -- gds, 18:50:59 10/04/01 Thu
Here are some possible explanations.
1. She and Willow were both changed by the 3-way telepathic connection to Glory. Among other possibilities here is that Tara may have received some of Willows power.
2. Some fantasy writers have written that magic is a resource (e.g. like petroleum) and that it can be used up. Perhaps there is a limit on how much magical energy one witch could use. She used an enormous amount of magical power last season. She may be running low on supply.
3. She was obviously magicked out after the graveside ritual, but maybe she is still recovering from being magicked out after dealing with Glory. Dealing with Glory might require months of magical rest to return to normal.
Black Magic Willow (*Rumors*/*Spoilers*) -- Lucifer_Sponge, 15:32:23 10/04/01 Thu
I don't think Willow's going to become dark because of the forces she's been invoking. I think what will happen is that her -level- of power will corrupt her, in a way.
The current supposed spoilers are that Tara and Willow get into a big fight about Willow over-using her magic. Well, I think this will be the main problem.
I was reading "Maskerade" (thats the right spelling for the title, folks) by Terry Pratchett... and one of the characters, who happens to be a witch, was worried about one of her fellow witches going "black." But her reasoning wasn't that her friend was flirting with dark powers, but that "she'd become so good at magic that there wasn't room in her head for anything else."
I think if Willow has any sort of downfall, that'll be it. Yup. Not evil deities. Not dark, primal forces. Boredom. She'll get so advanced that she won't have anything to do other than lash out at everything and everyone. Think about it... you have a power over the natural and supernatural forces in the world... and every day that power grows and grows... and eventually, you have this omnipotent force brooding inside you. You have an immense source of power and you don't really have anything to do with... No chance or reason to use it. Every day, you're on the edge of godhood... one day, you're just going to snap.
Mind, I don't truly believe Willow will get "dark." I think she'll make a few mistakes (BIG mistakes) and learn from them, but I don't forsee any huge corruption or anything like that. I'm just saying that if she does get darker it might not be because of the forces she's invoking. Rather, it'll be because of the fact that she -is- invoking forces, with such ease and grace.
Anyway, those are my two senseless cents
~Sponge
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[> Re: Black Magic Willow (*Rumors*/*Spoilers*) -- Rufus, 17:20:25 10/04/01 Thu
I think what struck me was when the others questioned Willow about getting ingredients on the Black Market her ratioal was, if it gets the job done, the ingredient was good in her books. I agree Willow will be corrupted by not paying attention to her original motivation for practising magic in the first place. She stayed in Sunnydale to help people. Once you begin to think that the results are worth any price, trouble can't be far behind.
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[> Re: Black Magic Willow (*Rumors*/*Spoilers*) -- gds, 18:23:33 10/04/01 Thu
I have been somewhat surprised about why people think Willow has gone dark. There is one thing that does make me think she has started down that path (but done too far too be pulled back) and it is something I haven't seen anyone mention explicitly (one post hinted at it). It was when she said, "Nobody's changing their minds, period". She has dragged the Scooby’s down a path where they followed with great reluctance. This path though not evil was blatantly questionable, controversial & has the potential for enormous unforeseen consequences. They are right to question their support. She is dictatorial in demanding they place her desire over their own conscience.
UPN and censorship -- SpikeIsIt, 17:12:38 10/04/01 Thu
As you may know UPN network?s censorship is more flex than WB?s ? did you catch anything that was showed/said on the season premier that would not run on the other network?
First most obvious the sacrificing made by Willow, and also there was a comment made by the demon about their parts fitting or ripping apart little girls.
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[> Re: UPN and censorship -- Humanitas, 17:20:48 10/04/01 Thu
And how 'bout that shot of the girls snuggling?
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[> how about willow and tara smooching? -- pocky, 20:43:46 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> Re: I thought Tara and Willow kissed on WB once, mayby not. -- bible belt, 20:58:52 10/04/01 Thu
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[> [> [> Actually, twice -- Masq, 22:53:07 10/04/01 Thu
Once after Joyce died and then again when Tara regained her sanity. Neither were ordinary circumstances. The kiss in the hallway in "Bargaining" was.
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[> Smackdown Buffy? -- darrenK, 08:47:31 10/05/01 Fri
That "tearing up little girls comment" was brutal and I still don't know how I feel about it.
The Buffy writers have made such an art out of referring to things without referring to them that I wasn't quite expecting such an outward threat of rape and sexual violence.
I'm pretty sure that this was all part of the Make-Buffy-think-she's gone-to-Hell plan, but it represents a new level of literalness and brutality in the Buffyverse––SMACKDOWN Buffy, if you will.
dK
Hey, this just occured to me. -- Humanitas, 17:29:25 10/04/01 Thu
While we were all focused on the BtVS premiere, it was the AtS opener that really had the shocker. We got sucker-punched! Joss is so sneaky...
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[> I'm still in "yea, right" mode with AtS, so we'll see -- Liq, 15:49:00 10/05/01 Fri
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[> [> Re: I'm still in "boo, hiss" mode with AtS 3, so we'll see (no spoilers) -- sasha, 21:34:04 10/05/01 Fri
I have been VERY disappointed with AtS3 so far....then I was blown away be BtVS6 premiere....I'm working on a comparative essay of the 2 that I might post here later...i'm not sure how to post it though because I figure its probally all still under spoilers....
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[> [> [> Sasha .... here are two options -- Liquidram, 11:33:51 10/06/01 Sat
You can post your essay here with *SPOILERS* in the subject title which gives people a choice, or you can email it to me for our Fictionary Corner Essays Page.
Upcoming Sacrifice-a-Turkey Day (O/T) -- Wisewoman, 19:42:19 10/04/01 Thu
Fellow Canadians! Our Day of Thanksgiving and turkey sacrifice is almost upon us!
I was thinking today, how come both Canadians and Americans have a Thanksgiving Day in the Fall and it's not the same day? And, how come I know what the Americans are celebrating (i.e. Pilgrims, Plymouth Rock, etc.) and not what I'm supposed to be celebrating? So I checked it out.
http://www.web-holidays.com/canada/
In Canada Thanksgiving is celebrated on the second Monday in October. Unlike the American tradition of remembering Pilgrims and settling in the New World, Canadians give thanks for a successful harvest. The harvest season falls earlier in Canada compared to the United States due to the simple fact that Canada is further north. [Duh!]
Harvest celebrations have been around a long time. Ever since the very first harvest, about 2,000 years ago, people have given thanks for a prosperous bounty. The first formal Canadian Thanksgiving was held just over 40 years prior to the pilgrims landing in Massachusetts. An English explorer named Martin Frobisher had been trying to find a northern passage to the Orient. He did not succeed but he did establish a settlement in Northern America and he did celebrate a harvest feast. This is considered the first Canadian Thanksgiving.
In 1957, Parliament announced that on the second Monday in October that Thanksgiving would be "a day of general thanksgiving to almighty God for the bountiful harvest with which Canada has been blessed."
During the American Revolution, Americans who remained loyal to England moved to Canada where they brought the customs and practices of the American Thanksgiving to Canada. There are many similarities between the two Thanksgivings such as the cornucopia and the pumpkin pie. According to one Canadian resource the Canadian table usually features venison and waterfowl over turkey. However, a professor from Durham College tells us that in Southern Ontario eating waterfowl or venison at Thanksgiving has never happened and that the turkey or/and ham is the featured food.
So there you have it. Happy Harvest Feasting, one and all!
;o)
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[> canada q's. (even more o/t, if possible) -- anom, 21:37:59 10/04/01 Thu
"In 1957, Parliament announced that on the second Monday in October that Thanksgiving would be 'a day of general thanksgiving to almighty God for the bountiful harvest with which Canada has been blessed.'"
Just wondering--does Canada have an official state religion? What about an equivalent of the US's 1st amendment protections of freedom of religion?
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[> [> Re: canada q's. (even more o/t, if possible) -- LadyStarlight, 06:30:38 10/05/01 Fri
Nope, no official religion here. AFAIK, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which we got back from Britain in 1981 (?)) guarantees freedom of worship.
Just a little Canadian trivia for you.
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[> [> [> Also the Human Rights Code of Canada -- WW, 07:39:11 10/05/01 Fri
Pretty sure that mentions freedom of religion, but I'll try to check.
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[> Re: Upcoming Sacrifice-a-Turkey Day (O/T) -- Moonbeam, 21:41:27 10/04/01 Thu
http://www.angelfire.com/nm/sweetsurrender/lyrics/bastedinblood.html
We gather together
For yams, beans, and cranberry sauce
But have you given much thought lately
To the turkey holocaust?
200 million noble birds
Slaughtered every fall
Ain't no difference between Hitler, Stalin
And the folks at Butterball, Butterball
So set your tables, America
From Birmingham to Branson
But when you carve that turkey
You're a finger lickin' Charlie Manson
Enjoy your pumpkin pie
Your buttery Idaho spuds
Grandma's chestnut stuffing
And a turkey basted in blood
Basted in blood
Basted in blood
Basted in blood
Enjoy your turkey, enjoy...
Basted in blood
Basted in blood
Basted in blood
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[> [> Well since someone put it that way... -- Deeva, 22:48:11 10/04/01 Thu
I'm going to enjoy the turkey even more so! Pass the gravy, Mom! It's not like I'm eating a beautiful fawn! Mwaahaaahahaa! ;oD
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[> [> Never had a wild turkey in your yard, maybe? -- Cactus Watcher, 07:37:59 10/05/01 Fri
They're attractive, but what a mess! Baste away.
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[> [> Hey, call me sick, but... -- WW, 08:10:12 10/05/01 Fri
I thought that was hilarious! Having lived on a turkey farm my own opinion is that any bird stupid enough to stand looking up at the rain until it drowns deserves to be eaten!
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[> Turkeys are safe from me til Christmas....... -- Rufus, 22:43:10 10/04/01 Thu
I decided to make chicken.......the way I'm feeling it just may be chicken soup....:):):)
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[> [> Christmas is pig-slaughter time, w/ the traditional dead cow-based, dairy-ridden wiggly pasta dish -- Liq, 15:32:43 10/05/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Ham and lasagna?? -- WW, 15:47:52 10/05/01 Fri
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[> [> [> [> kewpie doll to WW ... and as a choice... not together sillies -- Liq, 16:20:06 10/05/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Is it pork roast and some kind of macaroni & cheese? -- Deeva, 15:51:52 10/05/01 Fri
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[> [> Christmas is still technically illegal to celebrate in Britain -- Rahael, 15:55:58 10/05/01 Fri
The Long parliament banned in (1642?) and they never repealed the legislation.
So we have the annual act of civil disobdience every December. In our household we sacrifice a poultry-type- animal and watch television and do a lot of ritual fighting.
Returning to the scene of one's demise. -- A8, 01:18:58 10/05/01 Fri
Does anyone know if this is a common motif in literature or film? I've seen it a few times on TV with one particular example that stands out for me. Can anybody cite other examples of this?
When Buffy returned to the tower, it reminded me of the DS9 episode 'Afterimage' in which Ezri Dax returns to the place where Jadzia (the 7th and previous host of the Dax memories) was murdered. Ezri's great line was: "I was killed here. I mean...Jadzia was. It's a strange sensation...dying. No matter how many times it happens to you, you never get used to it."
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[> It's just one of any number of 'complete the circle' standard literary devices. -- Cactus Watcher, 07:58:32 10/05/01 Fri
Thoughts on Willow -- Marie, 09:00:45 10/05/01 Fri
Reading all the interesting posts on the episodes I have yet to see has made me think about Willow in particular, today.
There is a lot of talk about how could this once-innocent young girl kill Bambi. May I remind folks that Willow has never been that innocent? The first season, in "Witch", it was Willow who snatched the frog from a squeamish Xander to pluck out it's eye for the spell they were doing. It was Willow who went to the morgue and dug around on a dead guy, in order to find out if Oz had done the foul deed or not. (Granted, she passed out after, but she found the strength to do it!). She'd made lots of wrong choices - the 'Something Blue' spells, the robot lover, ignoring advice and going after Glory to name but a few.
She does wrong things for right reasons. I imagine all the reasons for bringing Buffy back were good ones, in her head. Maybe, in her own way, she was 'doing an Angel' and figuring she'd face the consequences tomorrow, so long as it worked today. Maybe, too, that's why she didn't tell her friends everything - if things went wrong, they wouldn't be to blame. And I don't imagine she saw killing the fawn as a wrong thing - just something that was required. Now that she is evolving into such a powerful witch, she may be taken over by forces hard to resist, but I have faith that she'll make it through to the other side, maybe sadder, but a lot wiser.
Marie
Tara's change of heart -- vampire hunter D, 13:34:51 10/05/01 Fri
Did anyone else notice that Tara's attitude toward ressurection spels has done a comlplete 180 since Forever? In that ep, she was so against it she wouldn't even let Dawn and Willow discuss it and why it's wrong. Now she is activly helping WIllow persorm such a ritual. What happened to make her change that much? I don't believe her relationship with Buffy is strong enough to make her break her Wiccan oath against raising the dead. ANd I don't think she let Willow force her into it. So what happened?
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[> Re: Good question -- mundusmundi, 13:49:00 10/05/01 Fri
Off the top of my head....
1) Maybe she's on board with the "mystical death" clause. And/or....
2) The last time she challenged Willow, she got brain-sucked by Glory. Maybe in her mind she's equated the two instances and now defers entirely to the Big W. (Though if anything she did seem more self-confident than ever. Strange.)
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[> [> Re: Good question -- JM, 14:20:01 10/05/01 Fri
Frequent lurker. A big deal seems to have been made of Willow's fears that Buffy wasn't just dead, but perhaps trapped in perpetual torment. This idea probably reverberated daily with those she had communicated it too. As they went about their daily lives, enjoying the things of this world, they would have been tormented by thoughts of Buffy in pain, buying them this normal existence. This may have been enough to convince even Tara that this was outside of the "normal order of things." She did, however, voice twice her reservations about doing something like raising the dead.
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[> [> [> Re: Good question -- darrenK, 14:46:56 10/05/01 Fri
I agree with JM.
As an addition, I think a summer spent in Slayerless Sunnydale trying to fight the forces of darkness was additional incentive to get the slayer back in anyway possible.
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[> [> I vote for #1 -- Liq, 15:22:26 10/05/01 Fri
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[> Re: Tara's change of heart -- Rufus, 15:33:19 10/05/01 Fri
I'm not sure that Tara is totally on board with bringing back Buffy. It's not like they said....... hey we're getting a sh*t kicking..lets cook us up a Slayer.....Sunnydale was turning into a hell...there was no Slayer called to replace Buffy. Buffy died a mystical death that made Willow think that Buffy should never have died at all. Tara knows that they can bring life to a being.....she is worried about the consequences....but Willow does have a point about Buffy not going to the reward she deserved. If it wasn't meant to be then it wouldn't happen. I do wonder if like Angel, Buffy will remember eventually where she was after death? If she were in a better place then the gang should order up a round of guilt. Buffy is the "Peoples Warrior" the balance of the world changed with her death. Even if she is pissed that they brought her back, I think Buffy the hero will understand why.
Sorry I'm monopolizing, but I just saw Nightmares for the 1st time... -- Liq, 20:15:26 10/05/01 Fri
Oh jeez..... juicy goodies galore ... makes me really wonder how much Joss figured out in the early years.
*****
Xander: Uh, our dreams are coming true?
Giles: Dreams? That would be a musical comedy version of this.
*****
Buffy has to break through her coffin .... and rises as a vamp.
*****
Willow: When Buffy was a vampire, you weren't still, like, attracted to her, were you?
Xander: Willow, how can you... I mean, that's really bent! She was... grotesque!
Willow: Still dug her, huh?
(BTW, Buffy made the coolest looking vamp of all that I have seen.)
Did I mention how much I love FINALLY getting to see the previous seasons?
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[> Re: Sorry I'm monopolizing, but I just saw Nightmares for the 1st time... -- gds, 20:33:50 10/05/01 Fri
I had forgotten Buffy had been buried alive before Bargining
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[> Don't be sorry -- vampire hunter D, 21:59:57 10/05/01 Fri
I myself was going to comment one the buried alive scene, but you beat me to it. It really changed my take of the ressurection scene.
btw, SMG still looks good, even with vampface
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[> [> Re: Don't be sorry -- John Burwood, 07:12:53 10/06/01 Sat
Nightmares will always stand out as a classic or me, because it was the ep which changed me from a regular viewer to a total addict. It symbolises the true genius of Buffy because of the reality of the nightmares provided. They did not come out of Elm St - they came out of reality, and were all the more frightening for it. And all the more heart-rending. The scene where Buffy's father tells her the divorce was her fault will for ever live in my mind. That was the moment of addiction for me. Maybe I should start a thread finding everybody's moment of addiction? (OT sorry)
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[> [> [> Re: Don't be sorry -- VampRiley, 08:52:32 10/06/01 Sat
Mine wasn't a moment or an ep that made me an addict. I saw a few eps in the later half of season three and it was also the character of Angel.
VR
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[> [> [> Re: Don't be sorry -- Wisewoman, 13:31:09 10/06/01 Sat
I finally convinced one of my best friends, a woman in her late 50's, to start watching BtVS when it aired in syndication. She's just seen Nightmares for the first time, and it's definitely made a fan of her. We went for breakfast this morning and she couldn't talk about anything else!
;o)
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